date:20161117

Re: [AFMUG] Email Server Options

2016-11-17 Thread That One Guy /sarcasm

Rackspace for regular email and Sherweb for hosted exchange, though
microsoft directly seems the least expensive most feature rich option for
exchange now

On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 4:41 PM, Matt  wrote:

> For those providing email for there customers yet what are they using
> for a platform?  We were looking at switching to Surgemail.  Anyone
> else using it?  Any other good options?
>



-- 
If you only see yourself as part of the team but you don't see your team as
part of yourself you have already failed as part of the team.

[AFMUG] Email Server Options

2016-11-17 Thread Matt

For those providing email for there customers yet what are they using
for a platform?  We were looking at switching to Surgemail.  Anyone
else using it?  Any other good options?

Re: [AFMUG] Space X, Satellite internet 1 GBPS, FCC

2016-11-17 Thread Ken Hohhof

Several thousand satellites self-destructing in the atmosphere 7 years from now 
should be exciting.

 

I remember Skylab.

 

 

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Chuck McCown
Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2016 2:48 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Space X, Satellite internet 1 GBPS, FCC

 

I think they all have de-orbiting thrusters on them now so they don’t end up as 
junk.  

 

From: Ken Hohhof 

Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2016 1:44 PM

To: af@afmug.com   

Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Space X, Satellite internet 1 GBPS, FCC

 

Article says orbit 715-790 miles and useful life 5-7 years, decay within 1 year 
after that.

 

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Chris Wright
Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2016 1:55 PM
To: af@afmug.com  
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Space X, Satellite internet 1 GBPS, FCC

 

Perhaps by then they’ll put little EM drives in each one to combat orbital 
decay. 

 

Chris Wright

Network Administrator

 

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Bill Prince
Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2016 11:39 AM
To: af@afmug.com  
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Space X, Satellite internet 1 GBPS, FCC

 

At 100 miles, I would think that the decay rate would be too high. Usable, 
low-maintenance LEO would probably start around 200 miles, but IANARS (I am not 
a rocket scientist).

 

bp

 

On 11/17/2016 11:36 AM, Adam Moffett wrote:

yeah but GPS doesn't need an uplink.

 

So if you have an antenna of similar size and shape to one of those cone shaped 
GPS antennas, how much tx power do you need to hit sats in LEO?  That's at 
least a hundred miles up isn't it?

 

 

 

-- Original Message --

From: "Mike Hammett"  >

To: af@afmug.com  

Sent: 11/17/2016 11:53:49 AM

Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Space X, Satellite internet 1 GBPS, FCC

 

They won't need to be south-facing. With 4,000 of them, they'll be everywhere 
going everywhere. I'd think like GPS.



-
Mike Hammett
  Intelligent Computing Solutions
   
  
  
 
  Midwest Internet Exchange
   
  
 
  The Brothers WISP
   
 





  _  


From: "Ken Hohhof"  >
To: af@afmug.com  
Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2016 10:52:04 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Space X, Satellite internet 1 GBPS, FCC

Article says client side antennas will be phased array to track the sats, also 
that the sats will communicate with each other.

 

Seems to me even with all those sats, talking about gigabit service to 
customers is a bit of marketing hype.

 

Speaking of marketing, that would seem to be the key, how will they market 
this?  Unless the target market is the same people who bought Iridium phones.

 

SpaceX does not have a natural existing marketing vehicle for Internet service, 
I assume they will need partners or resellers.  That is the advantage a 
Verizon, AT or DISH has – millions of existing customers they can advertise 
to, and offer bundle deals to.

 

Satellite does have a natural appeal to the “nothing on my house” people, you 
can stick the antenna on a short pole in the yard.  Still not a great solution 
for the apartment and condo dwellers without south facing balconies, they want 
indoor wireless modems.  I am assuming the LEO orbits will still be in the 
southern sky like GPS sats, maybe that is wrong and they will whiz overhead in 
all directions?

 

 

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Chuck McCown
Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2016 10:10 AM
To: af@afmug.com  
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Space X, Satellite internet 1 GBPS, FCC

 

I didn’t see what frequencies they are using.

Earth stations would need to track them I would think.  

 

From: Tushar Patel 

Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2016 7:00 AM

To: af@afmug.com   

Subject: [AFMUG] Space X, Satellite internet 1 GBPS, FCC

 

http://www.businessinsider.com/spacex-internet-satellite-constellation-2016-11

Re: [AFMUG] Space X, Satellite internet 1 GBPS, FCC

2016-11-17 Thread Chuck McCown

I think they all have de-orbiting thrusters on them now so they don’t end up as 
junk.  

From: Ken Hohhof 
Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2016 1:44 PM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Space X, Satellite internet 1 GBPS, FCC

Article says orbit 715-790 miles and useful life 5-7 years, decay within 1 year 
after that.

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Chris Wright
Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2016 1:55 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Space X, Satellite internet 1 GBPS, FCC

Perhaps by then they’ll put little EM drives in each one to combat orbital 
decay. 

Chris Wright

Network Administrator

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Bill Prince
Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2016 11:39 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Space X, Satellite internet 1 GBPS, FCC

At 100 miles, I would think that the decay rate would be too high. Usable, 
low-maintenance LEO would probably start around 200 miles, but IANARS (I am not 
a rocket scientist).

bp On 11/17/2016 11:36 AM, Adam Moffett wrote:

  yeah but GPS doesn't need an uplink.

  So if you have an antenna of similar size and shape to one of those cone 
shaped GPS antennas, how much tx power do you need to hit sats in LEO?  That's 
at least a hundred miles up isn't it?

  -- Original Message --

  From: "Mike Hammett" 

  To: af@afmug.com

  Sent: 11/17/2016 11:53:49 AM

  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Space X, Satellite internet 1 GBPS, FCC

They won't need to be south-facing. With 4,000 of them, they'll be 
everywhere going everywhere. I'd think like GPS.

-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions

Midwest Internet Exchange

The Brothers WISP

From: "Ken Hohhof" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2016 10:52:04 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Space X, Satellite internet 1 GBPS, FCC

Article says client side antennas will be phased array to track the sats, 
also that the sats will communicate with each other.

Seems to me even with all those sats, talking about gigabit service to 
customers is a bit of marketing hype.

Speaking of marketing, that would seem to be the key, how will they market 
this?  Unless the target market is the same people who bought Iridium phones.

SpaceX does not have a natural existing marketing vehicle for Internet 
service, I assume they will need partners or resellers.  That is the advantage 
a Verizon, AT or DISH has – millions of existing customers they can advertise 
to, and offer bundle deals to.

Satellite does have a natural appeal to the “nothing on my house” people, 
you can stick the antenna on a short pole in the yard.  Still not a great 
solution for the apartment and condo dwellers without south facing balconies, 
they want indoor wireless modems.  I am assuming the LEO orbits will still be 
in the southern sky like GPS sats, maybe that is wrong and they will whiz 
overhead in all directions?

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Chuck McCown
Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2016 10:10 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Space X, Satellite internet 1 GBPS, FCC

I didn’t see what frequencies they are using.

Earth stations would need to track them I would think.  

From: Tushar Patel 

Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2016 7:00 AM

To: af@afmug.com 

Subject: [AFMUG] Space X, Satellite internet 1 GBPS, FCC

http://www.businessinsider.com/spacex-internet-satellite-constellation-2016-11

Re: [AFMUG] Space X, Satellite internet 1 GBPS, FCC

2016-11-17 Thread Ken Hohhof

Article says orbit 715-790 miles and useful life 5-7 years, decay within 1 year 
after that.

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Chris Wright
Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2016 1:55 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Space X, Satellite internet 1 GBPS, FCC

Perhaps by then they’ll put little EM drives in each one to combat orbital 
decay. 

Chris Wright

Network Administrator

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Bill Prince
Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2016 11:39 AM
To: af@afmug.com  
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Space X, Satellite internet 1 GBPS, FCC

At 100 miles, I would think that the decay rate would be too high. Usable, 
low-maintenance LEO would probably start around 200 miles, but IANARS (I am not 
a rocket scientist).

bp

On 11/17/2016 11:36 AM, Adam Moffett wrote:

yeah but GPS doesn't need an uplink.

So if you have an antenna of similar size and shape to one of those cone shaped 
GPS antennas, how much tx power do you need to hit sats in LEO?  That's at 
least a hundred miles up isn't it?

-- Original Message --

From: "Mike Hammett"  >

To: af@afmug.com  

Sent: 11/17/2016 11:53:49 AM

Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Space X, Satellite internet 1 GBPS, FCC

They won't need to be south-facing. With 4,000 of them, they'll be everywhere 
going everywhere. I'd think like GPS.

-
Mike Hammett
  Intelligent Computing Solutions

  Midwest Internet Exchange

  The Brothers WISP

  _  

From: "Ken Hohhof"  >
To: af@afmug.com  
Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2016 10:52:04 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Space X, Satellite internet 1 GBPS, FCC

Article says client side antennas will be phased array to track the sats, also 
that the sats will communicate with each other.

Seems to me even with all those sats, talking about gigabit service to 
customers is a bit of marketing hype.

Speaking of marketing, that would seem to be the key, how will they market 
this?  Unless the target market is the same people who bought Iridium phones.

SpaceX does not have a natural existing marketing vehicle for Internet service, 
I assume they will need partners or resellers.  That is the advantage a 
Verizon, AT or DISH has – millions of existing customers they can advertise 
to, and offer bundle deals to.

Satellite does have a natural appeal to the “nothing on my house” people, you 
can stick the antenna on a short pole in the yard.  Still not a great solution 
for the apartment and condo dwellers without south facing balconies, they want 
indoor wireless modems.  I am assuming the LEO orbits will still be in the 
southern sky like GPS sats, maybe that is wrong and they will whiz overhead in 
all directions?

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com  ] On Behalf 
Of Chuck McCown
Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2016 10:10 AM
To: af@afmug.com  
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Space X, Satellite internet 1 GBPS, FCC

I didn’t see what frequencies they are using.

Earth stations would need to track them I would think.  

From: Tushar Patel 

Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2016 7:00 AM

To: af@afmug.com   

Subject: [AFMUG] Space X, Satellite internet 1 GBPS, FCC

http://www.businessinsider.com/spacex-internet-satellite-constellation-2016-11

Re: [AFMUG] Space X, Satellite internet 1 GBPS, FCC

2016-11-17 Thread Chuck McCown

That was an interesting read,  there are about 200 ground stations that measure 
the GPS satellite positions with very precise radar.  Then they tell the 
satellite where it is once an hour so it can tell us where it is all the time.  
 

Positional error is a couple of meters.  Pretty danged impressive accuracy for 
something that is about 12,000 miles away.

Imagine if you hacked the ephermeral data uplink and told them all they were 
somewhere else.  Talk about screwing up everything.  

From: Chuck McCown 
Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2016 12:48 PM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Space X, Satellite internet 1 GBPS, FCC

They do have an uplink (for their own use).  
I think that ground based stations determine the satellite position and uplinks 
that data so that it can broadcast its position.  
Not sure if it is altitude above geoid that is the most critical bit of 
ephermal data or if it actually transmits 3D positional data.  
Never studied it hard enough.

Super accurate timing info doesn’t do much for you unless you knew where it 
originated.  

From: Adam Moffett 
Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2016 12:36 PM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Space X, Satellite internet 1 GBPS, FCC

yeah but GPS doesn't need an uplink.

So if you have an antenna of similar size and shape to one of those cone shaped 
GPS antennas, how much tx power do you need to hit sats in LEO?  That's at 
least a hundred miles up isn't it?



-- Original Message --
From: "Mike Hammett" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: 11/17/2016 11:53:49 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Space X, Satellite internet 1 GBPS, FCC

  They won't need to be south-facing. With 4,000 of them, they'll be everywhere 
going everywhere. I'd think like GPS.




  -
  Mike Hammett
  Intelligent Computing Solutions

  Midwest Internet Exchange

  The Brothers WISP






--

  From: "Ken Hohhof" 
  To: af@afmug.com
  Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2016 10:52:04 AM
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Space X, Satellite internet 1 GBPS, FCC


  Article says client side antennas will be phased array to track the sats, 
also that the sats will communicate with each other.



  Seems to me even with all those sats, talking about gigabit service to 
customers is a bit of marketing hype.



  Speaking of marketing, that would seem to be the key, how will they market 
this?  Unless the target market is the same people who bought Iridium phones.



  SpaceX does not have a natural existing marketing vehicle for Internet 
service, I assume they will need partners or resellers.  That is the advantage 
a Verizon, AT or DISH has – millions of existing customers they can advertise 
to, and offer bundle deals to.



  Satellite does have a natural appeal to the “nothing on my house” people, you 
can stick the antenna on a short pole in the yard.  Still not a great solution 
for the apartment and condo dwellers without south facing balconies, they want 
indoor wireless modems.  I am assuming the LEO orbits will still be in the 
southern sky like GPS sats, maybe that is wrong and they will whiz overhead in 
all directions?





  From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Chuck McCown
  Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2016 10:10 AM
  To: af@afmug.com
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Space X, Satellite internet 1 GBPS, FCC



  I didn’t see what frequencies they are using.

  Earth stations would need to track them I would think.  



  From: Tushar Patel 

  Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2016 7:00 AM

  To: af@afmug.com 

  Subject: [AFMUG] Space X, Satellite internet 1 GBPS, FCC



  http://www.businessinsider.com/spacex-internet-satellite-constellation-2016-11

Re: [AFMUG] Space X, Satellite internet 1 GBPS, FCC

2016-11-17 Thread Chris Wright

Perhaps by then they’ll put little EM drives in each one to combat orbital 
decay.

Chris Wright
Network Administrator

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Bill Prince
Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2016 11:39 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Space X, Satellite internet 1 GBPS, FCC

At 100 miles, I would think that the decay rate would be too high. Usable, 
low-maintenance LEO would probably start around 200 miles, but IANARS (I am not 
a rocket scientist).

bp

On 11/17/2016 11:36 AM, Adam Moffett wrote:
yeah but GPS doesn't need an uplink.

So if you have an antenna of similar size and shape to one of those cone shaped 
GPS antennas, how much tx power do you need to hit sats in LEO?  That's at 
least a hundred miles up isn't it?

-- Original Message --
From: "Mike Hammett" >
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: 11/17/2016 11:53:49 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Space X, Satellite internet 1 GBPS, FCC

They won't need to be south-facing. With 4,000 of them, they'll be everywhere 
going everywhere. I'd think like GPS.

-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
[http://www.ics-il.com/images/fbicon.png][http://www.ics-il.com/images/googleicon.png][http://www.ics-il.com/images/linkedinicon.png][http://www.ics-il.com/images/twittericon.png]
Midwest Internet Exchange
[http://www.ics-il.com/images/fbicon.png][http://www.ics-il.com/images/linkedinicon.png][http://www.ics-il.com/images/twittericon.png]
The Brothers WISP
[http://www.ics-il.com/images/fbicon.png][http://www.ics-il.com/images/youtubeicon.png]

From: "Ken Hohhof" >
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2016 10:52:04 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Space X, Satellite internet 1 GBPS, FCC
Article says client side antennas will be phased array to track the sats, also 
that the sats will communicate with each other.

Seems to me even with all those sats, talking about gigabit service to 
customers is a bit of marketing hype.

Speaking of marketing, that would seem to be the key, how will they market 
this?  Unless the target market is the same people who bought Iridium phones.

SpaceX does not have a natural existing marketing vehicle for Internet service, 
I assume they will need partners or resellers.  That is the advantage a 
Verizon, AT or DISH has – millions of existing customers they can advertise 
to, and offer bundle deals to.

Satellite does have a natural appeal to the “nothing on my house” people, you 
can stick the antenna on a short pole in the yard.  Still not a great solution 
for the apartment and condo dwellers without south facing balconies, they want 
indoor wireless modems.  I am assuming the LEO orbits will still be in the 
southern sky like GPS sats, maybe that is wrong and they will whiz overhead in 
all directions?

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf 
Of Chuck McCown
Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2016 10:10 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Space X, Satellite internet 1 GBPS, FCC

I didn’t see what frequencies they are using.
Earth stations would need to track them I would think.

From: Tushar Patel
Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2016 7:00 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: [AFMUG] Space X, Satellite internet 1 GBPS, FCC

http://www.businessinsider.com/spacex-internet-satellite-constellation-2016-11

Re: [AFMUG] Space X, Satellite internet 1 GBPS, FCC

2016-11-17 Thread Adam Moffett


Well I guess it's only 6db more to get to 200 miles.

I followed links to the application and they're talking about Ku and Ka 
bands.
That's as far as I'm going to read during the work day.  I'm still 
curious how much tx you would need your CPE to get a useable uplink path 
to the satellite, and how big of an antenna.




-- Original Message --
From: "Bill Prince" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: 11/17/2016 2:39:13 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Space X, Satellite internet 1 GBPS, FCC

At 100 miles, I would think that the decay rate would be too high. 
Usable, low-maintenance LEO would probably start around 200 miles, but 
IANARS (I am not a rocket scientist).




bp 
On 11/17/2016 11:36 AM, Adam Moffett wrote:

yeah but GPS doesn't need an uplink.

So if you have an antenna of similar size and shape to one of those 
cone shaped GPS antennas, how much tx power do you need to hit sats in 
LEO?  That's at least a hundred miles up isn't it?




-- Original Message --
From: "Mike Hammett" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: 11/17/2016 11:53:49 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Space X, Satellite internet 1 GBPS, FCC

They won't need to be south-facing. With 4,000 of them, they'll be 
everywhere going everywhere. I'd think like GPS.




-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions

Midwest Internet Exchange

The Brothers WISP





From: "Ken Hohhof" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2016 10:52:04 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Space X, Satellite internet 1 GBPS, FCC

Article says client side antennas will be phased array to track the 
sats, also that the sats will communicate with each other.




Seems to me even with all those sats, talking about gigabit service 
to customers is a bit of marketing hype.




Speaking of marketing, that would seem to be the key, how will they 
market this?  Unless the target market is the same people who bought 
Iridium phones.




SpaceX does not have a natural existing marketing vehicle for 
Internet service, I assume they will need partners or resellers.  
That is the advantage a Verizon, AT or DISH has – millions of 
existing customers they can advertise to, and offer bundle deals to.




Satellite does have a natural appeal to the “nothing on my house” 
people, you can stick the antenna on a short pole in the yard.  Still 
not a great solution for the apartment and condo dwellers without 
south facing balconies, they want indoor wireless modems.  I am 
assuming the LEO orbits will still be in the southern sky like GPS 
sats, maybe that is wrong and they will whiz overhead in all 
directions?






From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Chuck McCown
Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2016 10:10 AM
To:af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Space X, Satellite internet 1 GBPS, FCC



I didn’t see what frequencies they are using.

Earth stations would need to track them I would think.



From: Tushar Patel

Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2016 7:00 AM

To:af@afmug.com

Subject: [AFMUG] Space X, Satellite internet 1 GBPS, FCC



http://www.businessinsider.com/spacex-internet-satellite-constellation-2016-11

Re: [AFMUG] Space X, Satellite internet 1 GBPS, FCC

2016-11-17 Thread Chuck McCown

They do have an uplink (for their own use).  
I think that ground based stations determine the satellite position and uplinks 
that data so that it can broadcast its position.  
Not sure if it is altitude above geoid that is the most critical bit of 
ephermal data or if it actually transmits 3D positional data.  
Never studied it hard enough.

Super accurate timing info doesn’t do much for you unless you knew where it 
originated.  

From: Adam Moffett 
Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2016 12:36 PM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Space X, Satellite internet 1 GBPS, FCC

yeah but GPS doesn't need an uplink.

So if you have an antenna of similar size and shape to one of those cone shaped 
GPS antennas, how much tx power do you need to hit sats in LEO?  That's at 
least a hundred miles up isn't it?



-- Original Message --
From: "Mike Hammett" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: 11/17/2016 11:53:49 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Space X, Satellite internet 1 GBPS, FCC

  They won't need to be south-facing. With 4,000 of them, they'll be everywhere 
going everywhere. I'd think like GPS.




  -
  Mike Hammett
  Intelligent Computing Solutions

  Midwest Internet Exchange

  The Brothers WISP






--

  From: "Ken Hohhof" 
  To: af@afmug.com
  Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2016 10:52:04 AM
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Space X, Satellite internet 1 GBPS, FCC


  Article says client side antennas will be phased array to track the sats, 
also that the sats will communicate with each other.



  Seems to me even with all those sats, talking about gigabit service to 
customers is a bit of marketing hype.



  Speaking of marketing, that would seem to be the key, how will they market 
this?  Unless the target market is the same people who bought Iridium phones.



  SpaceX does not have a natural existing marketing vehicle for Internet 
service, I assume they will need partners or resellers.  That is the advantage 
a Verizon, AT or DISH has – millions of existing customers they can advertise 
to, and offer bundle deals to.



  Satellite does have a natural appeal to the “nothing on my house” people, you 
can stick the antenna on a short pole in the yard.  Still not a great solution 
for the apartment and condo dwellers without south facing balconies, they want 
indoor wireless modems.  I am assuming the LEO orbits will still be in the 
southern sky like GPS sats, maybe that is wrong and they will whiz overhead in 
all directions?





  From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Chuck McCown
  Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2016 10:10 AM
  To: af@afmug.com
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Space X, Satellite internet 1 GBPS, FCC



  I didn’t see what frequencies they are using.

  Earth stations would need to track them I would think.  



  From: Tushar Patel 

  Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2016 7:00 AM

  To: af@afmug.com 

  Subject: [AFMUG] Space X, Satellite internet 1 GBPS, FCC



  http://www.businessinsider.com/spacex-internet-satellite-constellation-2016-11

Re: [AFMUG] Fiber Cost

2016-11-17 Thread Jaime Solorza

Bubbaproof ducting
...new product line.. I will take 2% of sales at cost... Contract on its
way.

On Nov 17, 2016 12:34 PM, "Chuck McCown"  wrote:

> In that case, duct minimized the damage and makes repair much quicker and
> cheaper.
>
> *From:* Jaime Solorza
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 17, 2016 12:32 PM
> *To:* Animal Farm
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Fiber Cost
>
>
> We have Bubbas... They cut fiber with tractor Happened several times
> to TWC and Espire in two years
>
> On Nov 17, 2016 12:29 PM, "Adam Moffett"  wrote:
>
>> I don't think I have gophers either.
>> Woodchucks, rats, field mice, rabbits, voles, moles...burrowing rodents
>> come in many flavors.
>>
>>
>> -- Original Message --
>> From: "Chris Fabien" 
>> To: af@afmug.com
>> Sent: 11/17/2016 1:19:24 PM
>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Fiber Cost
>>
>>
>> If you have gophers and duct prevents that I suppose that's worth the
>> cost.
>>
>> We do not have gophers in Michigan. We put everything direct buried in
>> rural areas. In some cases we may plow in 12ct cable down a mile of road
>> with only a few obstacles that need to be bored. That's about $1000 of
>> cable. A mile of innerduct is about $2000 in material and is a big product
>> to plow if you're plowing, or has to be drilled in (more expensive).
>>
>> In town we run duct, mainly because there are enough obstacles that we
>> have to drill it all anyway. There are certainly benefits to duct, but it
>> adds a lot of cost when you're looking at a rural area with maybe 10 houses
>> per mile. Just my opinion, worth what you paid for it!
>>
>> Chris Fabien
>> LakeNet LLC
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 11:05 AM, Chuck McCown  wrote:
>>
>>> I would never do direct again.  Gopher damage.  Doesn’t happen with
>>> duct.
>>> Plus with duct you can cut and pull out and go over and under anytime
>>> you want.  Saves in splicing and figure 8 ing etc.
>>> Duct is worth the extra expense.  And it is not really that expensive.
>>>
>>> *From:* Mark Radabaugh
>>> *Sent:* Thursday, November 17, 2016 6:14 AM
>>> *To:* af@afmug.com
>>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Fiber Cost
>>>
>>> Duct or direct plow makes a difference.   Direct is cheaper but damage
>>> is much harder, takes longer to repair, and increases your maintenance cost
>>> over time.  With direct bury you have no ability to pull slack or add new
>>> handholes for access.  In the event of a fiber cut without duct the repair
>>> usually involves exposing 100’ of cable on either side of the damage and
>>> splicing in a new section of cable which will require double the number of
>>> splices and splice cases versus duct where you can pull spare cable in.
>>>
>>> Mark
>>>
>>>
>>> On Nov 17, 2016, at 8:03 AM, Lewis Bergman 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> All ROW are already in place.  Few road crossings in rural areas but in
>>> cities close to standard numbers of road crossings.
>>>
>>> On Thu, Nov 17, 2016, 6:53 AM  wrote:
>>>
 Just don't forget that there will be costs not related to construction
 both before and after.

 Some of them are onetime costs, not related to mileage like planning,
 permits and the like. This is one reason costs are all over the map,
 because it depends on how many miles you can spread fixed prebuild costs.

 Others are ongoing costs which will keep eating at you, even after you
 finish construction. Various reporting requirements and paperwork, locates,
 repairs, maintenance, etc. Even when you have a brand new plant you have to
 budget for OPEX.

 Jared


 > Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2016 at 2:27 PM
 > From: "Mark Radabaugh" 
 > To: af@afmug.com
 > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Fiber Cost
 >
 > All over the place.   10k to 200k depending location. Rural
 direct plowed in good soil with no duct and nothing in the way?   12k is
 about as low as I have seen quoted.Road crossings, boring, rock, urban,
 rail crossings, pipeline crossings will all add to that number.
 >
 > Mark
 >
 >
 > > On Nov 17, 2016, at 5:52 AM, Lewis Bergman 
 wrote:
 > >
 > > I know we have discussed this before but I wanted a current cost
 for backhaul fiber per mile in the ground.
 >
 >

>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>

Re: [AFMUG] Space X, Satellite internet 1 GBPS, FCC

2016-11-17 Thread Jaime Solorza

Of course... I am gullible and uneducated

On Nov 17, 2016 12:36 PM, "Ken Hohhof"  wrote:

> Behind the moon (which is hollow, BTW).  Don’t you read the fake news
> sites?
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Jaime Solorza
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 17, 2016 1:18 PM
> *To:* Animal Farm 
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Space X, Satellite internet 1 GBPS, FCC
>
>
>
> Oh sure 4000...where the UFOs supposed to fly now?
>
>
>
> On Nov 17, 2016 9:53 AM, "Mike Hammett"  wrote:
>
> They won't need to be south-facing. With 4,000 of them, they'll be
> everywhere going everywhere. I'd think like GPS.
>
>
>
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Midwest Internet Exchange 
> 
> 
> 
> The Brothers WISP 
> 
>
>
> 
> --
>
> *From: *"Ken Hohhof" 
> *To: *af@afmug.com
> *Sent: *Thursday, November 17, 2016 10:52:04 AM
> *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Space X, Satellite internet 1 GBPS, FCC
>
> Article says client side antennas will be phased array to track the sats,
> also that the sats will communicate with each other.
>
>
>
> Seems to me even with all those sats, talking about gigabit service to
> customers is a bit of marketing hype.
>
>
>
> Speaking of marketing, that would seem to be the key, how will they market
> this?  Unless the target market is the same people who bought Iridium
> phones.
>
>
>
> SpaceX does not have a natural existing marketing vehicle for Internet
> service, I assume they will need partners or resellers.  That is the
> advantage a Verizon, AT or DISH has – millions of existing customers they
> can advertise to, and offer bundle deals to.
>
>
>
> Satellite does have a natural appeal to the “nothing on my house” people,
> you can stick the antenna on a short pole in the yard.  Still not a great
> solution for the apartment and condo dwellers without south facing
> balconies, they want indoor wireless modems.  I am assuming the LEO orbits
> will still be in the southern sky like GPS sats, maybe that is wrong and
> they will whiz overhead in all directions?
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Chuck McCown
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 17, 2016 10:10 AM
> *To:* af@afmug.com
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Space X, Satellite internet 1 GBPS, FCC
>
>
>
> I didn’t see what frequencies they are using.
>
> Earth stations would need to track them I would think.
>
>
>
> *From:* Tushar Patel
>
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 17, 2016 7:00 AM
>
> *To:* af@afmug.com
>
> *Subject:* [AFMUG] Space X, Satellite internet 1 GBPS, FCC
>
>
>
> http://www.businessinsider.com/spacex-internet-satellite-
> constellation-2016-11
>
>
>
>
>
>

Re: [AFMUG] Space X, Satellite internet 1 GBPS, FCC

2016-11-17 Thread Bill Prince

At 100 miles, I would think that the decay rate would be too high. 
Usable, low-maintenance LEO would probably start around 200 miles, but 
IANARS (I am not a rocket scientist).



bp


On 11/17/2016 11:36 AM, Adam Moffett wrote:

yeah but GPS doesn't need an uplink.
So if you have an antenna of similar size and shape to one of those 
cone shaped GPS antennas, how much tx power do you need to hit sats in 
LEO?  That's at least a hundred miles up isn't it?

-- Original Message --
From: "Mike Hammett" >
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: 11/17/2016 11:53:49 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Space X, Satellite internet 1 GBPS, FCC
They won't need to be south-facing. With 4,000 of them, they'll be 
everywhere going everywhere. I'd think like GPS.




-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 





*From: *"Ken Hohhof" >
*To: *af@afmug.com 
*Sent: *Thursday, November 17, 2016 10:52:04 AM
*Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Space X, Satellite internet 1 GBPS, FCC

Article says client side antennas will be phased array to track the 
sats, also that the sats will communicate with each other.


Seems to me even with all those sats, talking about gigabit service 
to customers is a bit of marketing hype.


Speaking of marketing, that would seem to be the key, how will they 
market this?  Unless the target market is the same people who bought 
Iridium phones.


SpaceX does not have a natural existing marketing vehicle for 
Internet service, I assume they will need partners or resellers.  
That is the advantage a Verizon, AT or DISH has – millions of 
existing customers they can advertise to, and offer bundle deals to.


Satellite does have a natural appeal to the “nothing on my house” 
people, you can stick the antenna on a short pole in the yard.  Still 
not a great solution for the apartment and condo dwellers without 
south facing balconies, they want indoor wireless modems.  I am 
assuming the LEO orbits will still be in the southern sky like GPS 
sats, maybe that is wrong and they will whiz overhead in all directions?


*From:* Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com 
] *On Behalf Of *Chuck McCown

*Sent:* Thursday, November 17, 2016 10:10 AM
*To:* af@afmug.com 
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Space X, Satellite internet 1 GBPS, FCC

I didn’t see what frequencies they are using.

Earth stations would need to track them I would think.

*From:*Tushar Patel

*Sent:*Thursday, November 17, 2016 7:00 AM

*To:*af@afmug.com 

*Subject:*[AFMUG] Space X, Satellite internet 1 GBPS, FCC

http://www.businessinsider.com/spacex-internet-satellite-constellation-2016-11

Re: [AFMUG] Space X, Satellite internet 1 GBPS, FCC

2016-11-17 Thread Adam Moffett


yeah but GPS doesn't need an uplink.

So if you have an antenna of similar size and shape to one of those cone 
shaped GPS antennas, how much tx power do you need to hit sats in LEO?  
That's at least a hundred miles up isn't it?




-- Original Message --
From: "Mike Hammett" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: 11/17/2016 11:53:49 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Space X, Satellite internet 1 GBPS, FCC

They won't need to be south-facing. With 4,000 of them, they'll be 
everywhere going everywhere. I'd think like GPS.




-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions

Midwest Internet Exchange

The Brothers WISP





From: "Ken Hohhof" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2016 10:52:04 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Space X, Satellite internet 1 GBPS, FCC

Article says client side antennas will be phased array to track the 
sats, also that the sats will communicate with each other.




Seems to me even with all those sats, talking about gigabit service to 
customers is a bit of marketing hype.




Speaking of marketing, that would seem to be the key, how will they 
market this?  Unless the target market is the same people who bought 
Iridium phones.




SpaceX does not have a natural existing marketing vehicle for Internet 
service, I assume they will need partners or resellers.  That is the 
advantage a Verizon, AT or DISH has – millions of existing customers 
they can advertise to, and offer bundle deals to.




Satellite does have a natural appeal to the “nothing on my house” 
people, you can stick the antenna on a short pole in the yard.  Still 
not a great solution for the apartment and condo dwellers without south 
facing balconies, they want indoor wireless modems.  I am assuming the 
LEO orbits will still be in the southern sky like GPS sats, maybe that 
is wrong and they will whiz overhead in all directions?






From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Chuck McCown
Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2016 10:10 AM
To:af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Space X, Satellite internet 1 GBPS, FCC



I didn’t see what frequencies they are using.

Earth stations would need to track them I would think.



From: Tushar Patel

Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2016 7:00 AM

To:af@afmug.com

Subject: [AFMUG] Space X, Satellite internet 1 GBPS, FCC



http://www.businessinsider.com/spacex-internet-satellite-constellation-2016-11

Re: [AFMUG] Space X, Satellite internet 1 GBPS, FCC

2016-11-17 Thread Ken Hohhof

Behind the moon (which is hollow, BTW).  Don’t you read the fake news sites?

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Jaime Solorza
Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2016 1:18 PM
To: Animal Farm 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Space X, Satellite internet 1 GBPS, FCC

Oh sure 4000...where the UFOs supposed to fly now?  

On Nov 17, 2016 9:53 AM, "Mike Hammett"  > wrote:

They won't need to be south-facing. With 4,000 of them, they'll be everywhere 
going everywhere. I'd think like GPS.

-
Mike Hammett
  Intelligent Computing Solutions

  Midwest Internet Exchange

  The Brothers WISP

  _  

From: "Ken Hohhof"  >
To: af@afmug.com  
Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2016 10:52:04 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Space X, Satellite internet 1 GBPS, FCC

Article says client side antennas will be phased array to track the sats, also 
that the sats will communicate with each other.

Seems to me even with all those sats, talking about gigabit service to 
customers is a bit of marketing hype.

Speaking of marketing, that would seem to be the key, how will they market 
this?  Unless the target market is the same people who bought Iridium phones.

SpaceX does not have a natural existing marketing vehicle for Internet service, 
I assume they will need partners or resellers.  That is the advantage a 
Verizon, AT or DISH has – millions of existing customers they can advertise 
to, and offer bundle deals to.

Satellite does have a natural appeal to the “nothing on my house” people, you 
can stick the antenna on a short pole in the yard.  Still not a great solution 
for the apartment and condo dwellers without south facing balconies, they want 
indoor wireless modems.  I am assuming the LEO orbits will still be in the 
southern sky like GPS sats, maybe that is wrong and they will whiz overhead in 
all directions?

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com  ] On Behalf 
Of Chuck McCown
Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2016 10:10 AM
To: af@afmug.com  
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Space X, Satellite internet 1 GBPS, FCC

I didn’t see what frequencies they are using.

Earth stations would need to track them I would think.  

From: Tushar Patel 

Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2016 7:00 AM

To: af@afmug.com   

Subject: [AFMUG] Space X, Satellite internet 1 GBPS, FCC

http://www.businessinsider.com/spacex-internet-satellite-constellation-2016-11

Re: [AFMUG] Fiber Cost

2016-11-17 Thread Chuck McCown

In that case, duct minimized the damage and makes repair much quicker and 
cheaper.  

From: Jaime Solorza 
Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2016 12:32 PM
To: Animal Farm 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Fiber Cost

We have Bubbas... They cut fiber with tractor Happened several times to TWC 
and Espire in two years

On Nov 17, 2016 12:29 PM, "Adam Moffett"  wrote:

  I don't think I have gophers either.
  Woodchucks, rats, field mice, rabbits, voles, moles...burrowing rodents come 
in many flavors.

  -- Original Message --
  From: "Chris Fabien" 
  To: af@afmug.com
  Sent: 11/17/2016 1:19:24 PM
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Fiber Cost

If you have gophers and duct prevents that I suppose that's worth the cost. 

We do not have gophers in Michigan. We put everything direct buried in 
rural areas. In some cases we may plow in 12ct cable down a mile of road with 
only a few obstacles that need to be bored. That's about $1000 of cable. A mile 
of innerduct is about $2000 in material and is a big product to plow if you're 
plowing, or has to be drilled in (more expensive). 

In town we run duct, mainly because there are enough obstacles that we have 
to drill it all anyway. There are certainly benefits to duct, but it adds a lot 
of cost when you're looking at a rural area with maybe 10 houses per mile. Just 
my opinion, worth what you paid for it!

Chris Fabien
LakeNet LLC

On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 11:05 AM, Chuck McCown  wrote:

  I would never do direct again.  Gopher damage.  Doesn’t happen with duct. 

  Plus with duct you can cut and pull out and go over and under anytime you 
want.  Saves in splicing and figure 8 ing etc.
  Duct is worth the extra expense.  And it is not really that expensive.  

  From: Mark Radabaugh 
  Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2016 6:14 AM
  To: af@afmug.com 
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Fiber Cost

  Duct or direct plow makes a difference.   Direct is cheaper but damage is 
much harder, takes longer to repair, and increases your maintenance cost over 
time.  With direct bury you have no ability to pull slack or add new handholes 
for access.  In the event of a fiber cut without duct the repair usually 
involves exposing 100’ of cable on either side of the damage and splicing in a 
new section of cable which will require double the number of splices and splice 
cases versus duct where you can pull spare cable in.

  Mark

On Nov 17, 2016, at 8:03 AM, Lewis Bergman  
wrote:

All ROW are already in place.  Few road crossings in rural areas but in 
cities close to standard numbers of road crossings. 

On Thu, Nov 17, 2016, 6:53 AM  wrote:

  Just don't forget that there will be costs not related to 
construction both before and after.

  Some of them are onetime costs, not related to mileage like planning, 
permits and the like. This is one reason costs are all over the map, because it 
depends on how many miles you can spread fixed prebuild costs.

  Others are ongoing costs which will keep eating at you, even after 
you finish construction. Various reporting requirements and paperwork, locates, 
repairs, maintenance, etc. Even when you have a brand new plant you have to 
budget for OPEX.

  Jared

  > Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2016 at 2:27 PM
  > From: "Mark Radabaugh" 
  > To: af@afmug.com
  > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Fiber Cost
  >

  > All over the place.   10k to 200k depending location. Rural 
direct plowed in good soil with no duct and nothing in the way?   12k is about 
as low as I have seen quoted.Road crossings, boring, rock, urban, rail 
crossings, pipeline crossings will all add to that number.
  >
  > Mark
  >
  >
  > > On Nov 17, 2016, at 5:52 AM, Lewis Bergman 
 wrote:
  > >
  > > I know we have discussed this before but I wanted a current cost 
for backhaul fiber per mile in the ground.
  >
  >

Re: [AFMUG] Fiber Cost

2016-11-17 Thread Jaime Solorza

We have Bubbas... They cut fiber with tractor Happened several times to
TWC and Espire in two years

On Nov 17, 2016 12:29 PM, "Adam Moffett"  wrote:

> I don't think I have gophers either.
> Woodchucks, rats, field mice, rabbits, voles, moles...burrowing rodents
> come in many flavors.
>
>
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Chris Fabien" 
> To: af@afmug.com
> Sent: 11/17/2016 1:19:24 PM
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Fiber Cost
>
>
> If you have gophers and duct prevents that I suppose that's worth the
> cost.
>
> We do not have gophers in Michigan. We put everything direct buried in
> rural areas. In some cases we may plow in 12ct cable down a mile of road
> with only a few obstacles that need to be bored. That's about $1000 of
> cable. A mile of innerduct is about $2000 in material and is a big product
> to plow if you're plowing, or has to be drilled in (more expensive).
>
> In town we run duct, mainly because there are enough obstacles that we
> have to drill it all anyway. There are certainly benefits to duct, but it
> adds a lot of cost when you're looking at a rural area with maybe 10 houses
> per mile. Just my opinion, worth what you paid for it!
>
> Chris Fabien
> LakeNet LLC
>
>
> On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 11:05 AM, Chuck McCown  wrote:
>
>> I would never do direct again.  Gopher damage.  Doesn’t happen with
>> duct.
>> Plus with duct you can cut and pull out and go over and under anytime you
>> want.  Saves in splicing and figure 8 ing etc.
>> Duct is worth the extra expense.  And it is not really that expensive.
>>
>> *From:* Mark Radabaugh
>> *Sent:* Thursday, November 17, 2016 6:14 AM
>> *To:* af@afmug.com
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Fiber Cost
>>
>> Duct or direct plow makes a difference.   Direct is cheaper but damage is
>> much harder, takes longer to repair, and increases your maintenance cost
>> over time.  With direct bury you have no ability to pull slack or add new
>> handholes for access.  In the event of a fiber cut without duct the repair
>> usually involves exposing 100’ of cable on either side of the damage and
>> splicing in a new section of cable which will require double the number of
>> splices and splice cases versus duct where you can pull spare cable in.
>>
>> Mark
>>
>>
>> On Nov 17, 2016, at 8:03 AM, Lewis Bergman 
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>> All ROW are already in place.  Few road crossings in rural areas but in
>> cities close to standard numbers of road crossings.
>>
>> On Thu, Nov 17, 2016, 6:53 AM  wrote:
>>
>>> Just don't forget that there will be costs not related to construction
>>> both before and after.
>>>
>>> Some of them are onetime costs, not related to mileage like planning,
>>> permits and the like. This is one reason costs are all over the map,
>>> because it depends on how many miles you can spread fixed prebuild costs.
>>>
>>> Others are ongoing costs which will keep eating at you, even after you
>>> finish construction. Various reporting requirements and paperwork, locates,
>>> repairs, maintenance, etc. Even when you have a brand new plant you have to
>>> budget for OPEX.
>>>
>>> Jared
>>>
>>>
>>> > Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2016 at 2:27 PM
>>> > From: "Mark Radabaugh" 
>>> > To: af@afmug.com
>>> > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Fiber Cost
>>> >
>>> > All over the place.   10k to 200k depending location. Rural direct
>>> plowed in good soil with no duct and nothing in the way?   12k is about as
>>> low as I have seen quoted.Road crossings, boring, rock, urban, rail
>>> crossings, pipeline crossings will all add to that number.
>>> >
>>> > Mark
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > > On Nov 17, 2016, at 5:52 AM, Lewis Bergman 
>>> wrote:
>>> > >
>>> > > I know we have discussed this before but I wanted a current cost for
>>> backhaul fiber per mile in the ground.
>>> >
>>> >
>>>
>>
>>
>
>

Re: [AFMUG] Fiber Cost

2016-11-17 Thread Chuck McCown

Underground critters love the taste of cable.  Duct makes the geometry such 
that they cannot take a bite.  

From: Adam Moffett 
Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2016 12:29 PM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Fiber Cost

I don't think I have gophers either.
Woodchucks, rats, field mice, rabbits, voles, moles...burrowing rodents come in 
many flavors.

-- Original Message --
From: "Chris Fabien" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: 11/17/2016 1:19:24 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Fiber Cost

  If you have gophers and duct prevents that I suppose that's worth the cost.  

  We do not have gophers in Michigan. We put everything direct buried in rural 
areas. In some cases we may plow in 12ct cable down a mile of road with only a 
few obstacles that need to be bored. That's about $1000 of cable. A mile of 
innerduct is about $2000 in material and is a big product to plow if you're 
plowing, or has to be drilled in (more expensive). 

  In town we run duct, mainly because there are enough obstacles that we have 
to drill it all anyway. There are certainly benefits to duct, but it adds a lot 
of cost when you're looking at a rural area with maybe 10 houses per mile. Just 
my opinion, worth what you paid for it!

  Chris Fabien
  LakeNet LLC

  On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 11:05 AM, Chuck McCown  wrote:

I would never do direct again.  Gopher damage.  Doesn’t happen with duct.  
Plus with duct you can cut and pull out and go over and under anytime you 
want.  Saves in splicing and figure 8 ing etc.
Duct is worth the extra expense.  And it is not really that expensive.  

From: Mark Radabaugh 
Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2016 6:14 AM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Fiber Cost

Duct or direct plow makes a difference.   Direct is cheaper but damage is 
much harder, takes longer to repair, and increases your maintenance cost over 
time.  With direct bury you have no ability to pull slack or add new handholes 
for access.  In the event of a fiber cut without duct the repair usually 
involves exposing 100’ of cable on either side of the damage and splicing in a 
new section of cable which will require double the number of splices and splice 
cases versus duct where you can pull spare cable in.

Mark

  On Nov 17, 2016, at 8:03 AM, Lewis Bergman  
wrote:

  All ROW are already in place.  Few road crossings in rural areas but in 
cities close to standard numbers of road crossings. 

  On Thu, Nov 17, 2016, 6:53 AM  wrote:

Just don't forget that there will be costs not related to construction 
both before and after.

Some of them are onetime costs, not related to mileage like planning, 
permits and the like. This is one reason costs are all over the map, because it 
depends on how many miles you can spread fixed prebuild costs.

Others are ongoing costs which will keep eating at you, even after you 
finish construction. Various reporting requirements and paperwork, locates, 
repairs, maintenance, etc. Even when you have a brand new plant you have to 
budget for OPEX.

Jared

> Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2016 at 2:27 PM
> From: "Mark Radabaugh" 
> To: af@afmug.com
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Fiber Cost
>

> All over the place.   10k to 200k depending location. Rural 
direct plowed in good soil with no duct and nothing in the way?   12k is about 
as low as I have seen quoted.Road crossings, boring, rock, urban, rail 
crossings, pipeline crossings will all add to that number.
>
> Mark
>
>
> > On Nov 17, 2016, at 5:52 AM, Lewis Bergman 
 wrote:
> >
> > I know we have discussed this before but I wanted a current cost 
for backhaul fiber per mile in the ground.
>
>

Re: [AFMUG] Fiber Cost

2016-11-17 Thread Adam Moffett

I don't think I have gophers either.
Woodchucks, rats, field mice, rabbits, voles, moles...burrowing rodents 
come in many flavors.

-- Original Message --
From: "Chris Fabien" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: 11/17/2016 1:19:24 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Fiber Cost

If you have gophers and duct prevents that I suppose that's worth the 
cost.

We do not have gophers in Michigan. We put everything direct buried in 
rural areas. In some cases we may plow in 12ct cable down a mile of 
road with only a few obstacles that need to be bored. That's about 
$1000 of cable. A mile of innerduct is about $2000 in material and is a 
big product to plow if you're plowing, or has to be drilled in (more 
expensive).

In town we run duct, mainly because there are enough obstacles that we 
have to drill it all anyway. There are certainly benefits to duct, but 
it adds a lot of cost when you're looking at a rural area with maybe 10 
houses per mile. Just my opinion, worth what you paid for it!

Chris Fabien
LakeNet LLC

On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 11:05 AM, Chuck McCown  wrote:
I would never do direct again.  Gopher damage.  Doesn’t happen with 
duct.
Plus with duct you can cut and pull out and go over and under anytime 
you want.  Saves in splicing and figure 8 ing etc.

Duct is worth the extra expense.  And it is not really that expensive.

From:Mark Radabaugh
Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2016 6:14 AM
To:af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Fiber Cost

Duct or direct plow makes a difference.   Direct is cheaper but damage 
is much harder, takes longer to repair, and increases your maintenance 
cost over time.  With direct bury you have no ability to pull slack or 
add new handholes for access.  In the event of a fiber cut without 
duct the repair usually involves exposing 100’ of cable on either side 
of the damage and splicing in a new section of cable which will 
require double the number of splices and splice cases versus duct 
where you can pull spare cable in.

Mark

On Nov 17, 2016, at 8:03 AM, Lewis Bergman  
wrote:

All ROW are already in place.  Few road crossings in rural areas but 
in cities close to standard numbers of road crossings.

On Thu, Nov 17, 2016, 6:53 AM  wrote:
Just don't forget that there will be costs not related to 
construction both before and after.

Some of them are onetime costs, not related to mileage like 
planning, permits and the like. This is one reason costs are all 
over the map, because it depends on how many miles you can spread 
fixed prebuild costs.

Others are ongoing costs which will keep eating at you, even after 
you finish construction. Various reporting requirements and 
paperwork, locates, repairs, maintenance, etc. Even when you have a 
brand new plant you have to budget for OPEX.

Jared

> Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2016 at 2:27 PM
> From: "Mark Radabaugh" 
> To: af@afmug.com
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Fiber Cost
>
> All over the place.   10k to 200k depending location. Rural 
direct plowed in good soil with no duct and nothing in the way?   
12k is about as low as I have seen quoted.Road crossings, 
boring, rock, urban, rail crossings, pipeline crossings will all add 
to that number.

>
> Mark
>
>
> > On Nov 17, 2016, at 5:52 AM, Lewis Bergman 
 wrote:

> >
> > I know we have discussed this before but I wanted a current cost 
for backhaul fiber per mile in the ground.

>
>

Re: [AFMUG] Space X, Satellite internet 1 GBPS, FCC

2016-11-17 Thread Jaime Solorza

Oh sure 4000...where the UFOs supposed to fly now?

On Nov 17, 2016 9:53 AM, "Mike Hammett"  wrote:

> They won't need to be south-facing. With 4,000 of them, they'll be
> everywhere going everywhere. I'd think like GPS.
>
>
>
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Midwest Internet Exchange 
> 
> 
> 
> The Brothers WISP 
> 
>
>
> 
> --
> *From: *"Ken Hohhof" 
> *To: *af@afmug.com
> *Sent: *Thursday, November 17, 2016 10:52:04 AM
> *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Space X, Satellite internet 1 GBPS, FCC
>
> Article says client side antennas will be phased array to track the sats,
> also that the sats will communicate with each other.
>
>
>
> Seems to me even with all those sats, talking about gigabit service to
> customers is a bit of marketing hype.
>
>
>
> Speaking of marketing, that would seem to be the key, how will they market
> this?  Unless the target market is the same people who bought Iridium
> phones.
>
>
>
> SpaceX does not have a natural existing marketing vehicle for Internet
> service, I assume they will need partners or resellers.  That is the
> advantage a Verizon, AT or DISH has – millions of existing customers they
> can advertise to, and offer bundle deals to.
>
>
>
> Satellite does have a natural appeal to the “nothing on my house” people,
> you can stick the antenna on a short pole in the yard.  Still not a great
> solution for the apartment and condo dwellers without south facing
> balconies, they want indoor wireless modems.  I am assuming the LEO orbits
> will still be in the southern sky like GPS sats, maybe that is wrong and
> they will whiz overhead in all directions?
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Chuck McCown
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 17, 2016 10:10 AM
> *To:* af@afmug.com
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Space X, Satellite internet 1 GBPS, FCC
>
>
>
> I didn’t see what frequencies they are using.
>
> Earth stations would need to track them I would think.
>
>
>
> *From:* Tushar Patel
>
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 17, 2016 7:00 AM
>
> *To:* af@afmug.com
>
> *Subject:* [AFMUG] Space X, Satellite internet 1 GBPS, FCC
>
>
>
> http://www.businessinsider.com/spacex-internet-satellite-
> constellation-2016-11
>
>
>
>

Re: [AFMUG] Fiber Cost

2016-11-17 Thread Ken Hohhof

Do you have backhoes in Michigan?

How do you handle splices when someone else is digging in the ROW and hits your 
direct burial fiber?  Two buried splice cases and a new run of fiber?

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Chris Fabien
Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2016 12:19 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Fiber Cost

If you have gophers and duct prevents that I suppose that's worth the cost. 

We do not have gophers in Michigan. We put everything direct buried in rural 
areas. In some cases we may plow in 12ct cable down a mile of road with only a 
few obstacles that need to be bored. That's about $1000 of cable. A mile of 
innerduct is about $2000 in material and is a big product to plow if you're 
plowing, or has to be drilled in (more expensive). 

In town we run duct, mainly because there are enough obstacles that we have to 
drill it all anyway. There are certainly benefits to duct, but it adds a lot of 
cost when you're looking at a rural area with maybe 10 houses per mile. Just my 
opinion, worth what you paid for it!

Chris Fabien

LakeNet LLC

On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 11:05 AM, Chuck McCown  > wrote:

I would never do direct again.  Gopher damage.  Doesn’t happen with duct.  

Plus with duct you can cut and pull out and go over and under anytime you want. 
 Saves in splicing and figure 8 ing etc.

Duct is worth the extra expense.  And it is not really that expensive.  

From: Mark Radabaugh 

Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2016 6:14 AM

To: af@afmug.com   

Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Fiber Cost

Duct or direct plow makes a difference.   Direct is cheaper but damage is much 
harder, takes longer to repair, and increases your maintenance cost over time.  
With direct bury you have no ability to pull slack or add new handholes for 
access.  In the event of a fiber cut without duct the repair usually involves 
exposing 100’ of cable on either side of the damage and splicing in a new 
section of cable which will require double the number of splices and splice 
cases versus duct where you can pull spare cable in.

Mark

On Nov 17, 2016, at 8:03 AM, Lewis Bergman  > wrote:

All ROW are already in place.  Few road crossings in rural areas but in cities 
close to standard numbers of road crossings. 

On Thu, Nov 17, 2016, 6:53 AM  > 
wrote:

Just don't forget that there will be costs not related to construction both 
before and after.

Some of them are onetime costs, not related to mileage like planning, permits 
and the like. This is one reason costs are all over the map, because it depends 
on how many miles you can spread fixed prebuild costs.

Others are ongoing costs which will keep eating at you, even after you finish 
construction. Various reporting requirements and paperwork, locates, repairs, 
maintenance, etc. Even when you have a brand new plant you have to budget for 
OPEX.

Jared

> Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2016 at 2:27 PM
> From: "Mark Radabaugh"  >
> To: af@afmug.com  
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Fiber Cost
>

> All over the place.   10k to 200k depending location. Rural direct plowed 
> in good soil with no duct and nothing in the way?   12k is about as low as I 
> have seen quoted.Road crossings, boring, rock, urban, rail crossings, 
> pipeline crossings will all add to that number.
>
> Mark
>
>
> > On Nov 17, 2016, at 5:52 AM, Lewis Bergman  >  > wrote:
> >
> > I know we have discussed this before but I wanted a current cost for 
> > backhaul fiber per mile in the ground.
>
>

Re: [AFMUG] Fiber Cost

2016-11-17 Thread Chris Fabien

If you have gophers and duct prevents that I suppose that's worth the cost.

We do not have gophers in Michigan. We put everything direct buried in
rural areas. In some cases we may plow in 12ct cable down a mile of road
with only a few obstacles that need to be bored. That's about $1000 of
cable. A mile of innerduct is about $2000 in material and is a big product
to plow if you're plowing, or has to be drilled in (more expensive).

In town we run duct, mainly because there are enough obstacles that we have
to drill it all anyway. There are certainly benefits to duct, but it adds a
lot of cost when you're looking at a rural area with maybe 10 houses per
mile. Just my opinion, worth what you paid for it!

Chris Fabien
LakeNet LLC


On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 11:05 AM, Chuck McCown  wrote:

> I would never do direct again.  Gopher damage.  Doesn’t happen with duct.
> Plus with duct you can cut and pull out and go over and under anytime you
> want.  Saves in splicing and figure 8 ing etc.
> Duct is worth the extra expense.  And it is not really that expensive.
>
> *From:* Mark Radabaugh
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 17, 2016 6:14 AM
> *To:* af@afmug.com
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Fiber Cost
>
> Duct or direct plow makes a difference.   Direct is cheaper but damage is
> much harder, takes longer to repair, and increases your maintenance cost
> over time.  With direct bury you have no ability to pull slack or add new
> handholes for access.  In the event of a fiber cut without duct the repair
> usually involves exposing 100’ of cable on either side of the damage and
> splicing in a new section of cable which will require double the number of
> splices and splice cases versus duct where you can pull spare cable in.
>
> Mark
>
>
> On Nov 17, 2016, at 8:03 AM, Lewis Bergman 
> wrote:
>
>
> All ROW are already in place.  Few road crossings in rural areas but in
> cities close to standard numbers of road crossings.
>
> On Thu, Nov 17, 2016, 6:53 AM  wrote:
>
>> Just don't forget that there will be costs not related to construction
>> both before and after.
>>
>> Some of them are onetime costs, not related to mileage like planning,
>> permits and the like. This is one reason costs are all over the map,
>> because it depends on how many miles you can spread fixed prebuild costs.
>>
>> Others are ongoing costs which will keep eating at you, even after you
>> finish construction. Various reporting requirements and paperwork, locates,
>> repairs, maintenance, etc. Even when you have a brand new plant you have to
>> budget for OPEX.
>>
>> Jared
>>
>>
>> > Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2016 at 2:27 PM
>> > From: "Mark Radabaugh" 
>> > To: af@afmug.com
>> > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Fiber Cost
>> >
>> > All over the place.   10k to 200k depending location. Rural direct
>> plowed in good soil with no duct and nothing in the way?   12k is about as
>> low as I have seen quoted.Road crossings, boring, rock, urban, rail
>> crossings, pipeline crossings will all add to that number.
>> >
>> > Mark
>> >
>> >
>> > > On Nov 17, 2016, at 5:52 AM, Lewis Bergman 
>> wrote:
>> > >
>> > > I know we have discussed this before but I wanted a current cost for
>> backhaul fiber per mile in the ground.
>> >
>> >
>>
>
>

Re: [AFMUG] Space X, Satellite internet 1 GBPS, FCC

2016-11-17 Thread Bill Prince

If they are LEO, they will be all over the place like a GPS satellite. I 
would imagine mostly in polar orbits? They would still have to deal with 
multiple, possibly overlapping orbits.



bp


On 11/17/2016 8:52 AM, Ken Hohhof wrote:


Article says client side antennas will be phased array to track the 
sats, also that the sats will communicate with each other.


Seems to me even with all those sats, talking about gigabit service to 
customers is a bit of marketing hype.


Speaking of marketing, that would seem to be the key, how will they 
market this?  Unless the target market is the same people who bought 
Iridium phones.


SpaceX does not have a natural existing marketing vehicle for Internet 
service, I assume they will need partners or resellers.  That is the 
advantage a Verizon, AT or DISH has – millions of existing customers 
they can advertise to, and offer bundle deals to.


Satellite does have a natural appeal to the “nothing on my house” 
people, you can stick the antenna on a short pole in the yard.  Still 
not a great solution for the apartment and condo dwellers without 
south facing balconies, they want indoor wireless modems.  I am 
assuming the LEO orbits will still be in the southern sky like GPS 
sats, maybe that is wrong and they will whiz overhead in all directions?


*From:* Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Chuck McCown
*Sent:* Thursday, November 17, 2016 10:10 AM
*To:* af@afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Space X, Satellite internet 1 GBPS, FCC

I didn’t see what frequencies they are using.

Earth stations would need to track them I would think.

*From:*Tushar Patel

*Sent:*Thursday, November 17, 2016 7:00 AM

*To:*af@afmug.com 

*Subject:*[AFMUG] Space X, Satellite internet 1 GBPS, FCC

http://www.businessinsider.com/spacex-internet-satellite-constellation-2016-11

Re: [AFMUG] Space X, Satellite internet 1 GBPS, FCC

2016-11-17 Thread Mike Hammett

They won't need to be south-facing. With 4,000 of them, they'll be everywhere 
going everywhere. I'd think like GPS. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: "Ken Hohhof"  
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2016 10:52:04 AM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Space X, Satellite internet 1 GBPS, FCC 



Article says client side antennas will be phased array to track the sats, also 
that the sats will communicate with each other. 

Seems to me even with all those sats, talking about gigabit service to 
customers is a bit of marketing hype. 

Speaking of marketing, that would seem to be the key, how will they market 
this? Unless the target market is the same people who bought Iridium phones. 

SpaceX does not have a natural existing marketing vehicle for Internet service, 
I assume they will need partners or resellers. That is the advantage a Verizon, 
AT or DISH has – millions of existing customers they can advertise to, and 
offer bundle deals to. 

Satellite does have a natural appeal to the “nothing on my house” people, you 
can stick the antenna on a short pole in the yard. Still not a great solution 
for the apartment and condo dwellers without south facing balconies, they want 
indoor wireless modems. I am assuming the LEO orbits will still be in the 
southern sky like GPS sats, maybe that is wrong and they will whiz overhead in 
all directions? 




From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Chuck McCown 
Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2016 10:10 AM 
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Space X, Satellite internet 1 GBPS, FCC 




I didn’t see what frequencies they are using. 

Earth stations would need to track them I would think. 






From: Tushar Patel 

Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2016 7:00 AM 

To: af@afmug.com 

Subject: [AFMUG] Space X, Satellite internet 1 GBPS, FCC 



http://www.businessinsider.com/spacex-internet-satellite-constellation-2016-11

Re: [AFMUG] Space X, Satellite internet 1 GBPS, FCC

2016-11-17 Thread Ken Hohhof

Article says client side antennas will be phased array to track the sats, also 
that the sats will communicate with each other.

 

Seems to me even with all those sats, talking about gigabit service to 
customers is a bit of marketing hype.

 

Speaking of marketing, that would seem to be the key, how will they market 
this?  Unless the target market is the same people who bought Iridium phones.

 

SpaceX does not have a natural existing marketing vehicle for Internet service, 
I assume they will need partners or resellers.  That is the advantage a 
Verizon, AT or DISH has – millions of existing customers they can advertise 
to, and offer bundle deals to.

 

Satellite does have a natural appeal to the “nothing on my house” people, you 
can stick the antenna on a short pole in the yard.  Still not a great solution 
for the apartment and condo dwellers without south facing balconies, they want 
indoor wireless modems.  I am assuming the LEO orbits will still be in the 
southern sky like GPS sats, maybe that is wrong and they will whiz overhead in 
all directions?

 

 

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Chuck McCown
Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2016 10:10 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Space X, Satellite internet 1 GBPS, FCC

 

I didn’t see what frequencies they are using.

Earth stations would need to track them I would think.  

 

From: Tushar Patel 

Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2016 7:00 AM

To: af@afmug.com   

Subject: [AFMUG] Space X, Satellite internet 1 GBPS, FCC

 

http://www.businessinsider.com/spacex-internet-satellite-constellation-2016-11

Re: [AFMUG] Space X, Satellite internet 1 GBPS, FCC

2016-11-17 Thread Chuck McCown

I didn’t see what frequencies they are using.
Earth stations would need to track them I would think.  

From: Tushar Patel 
Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2016 7:00 AM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: [AFMUG] Space X, Satellite internet 1 GBPS, FCC

http://www.businessinsider.com/spacex-internet-satellite-constellation-2016-11

Re: [AFMUG] Fiber Cost

2016-11-17 Thread Chuck McCown

Yep, 1.25” ID is the most common followed by 2” ID
HDPE

From: Josh Luthman 
Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2016 9:08 AM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Fiber Cost

When you say duct you mean this orange conduit, right? 

https://www.bdiky.com/siteadmin/includes/javascript/third_party/kcfinder/upload/images/3N1%20Boreable%20Conduit.jpg

Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 11:05 AM, Chuck McCown  wrote:

  I would never do direct again.  Gopher damage.  Doesn’t happen with duct.  
  Plus with duct you can cut and pull out and go over and under anytime you 
want.  Saves in splicing and figure 8 ing etc.
  Duct is worth the extra expense.  And it is not really that expensive.  

  From: Mark Radabaugh 
  Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2016 6:14 AM
  To: af@afmug.com 
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Fiber Cost

  Duct or direct plow makes a difference.   Direct is cheaper but damage is 
much harder, takes longer to repair, and increases your maintenance cost over 
time.  With direct bury you have no ability to pull slack or add new handholes 
for access.  In the event of a fiber cut without duct the repair usually 
involves exposing 100’ of cable on either side of the damage and splicing in a 
new section of cable which will require double the number of splices and splice 
cases versus duct where you can pull spare cable in.

  Mark

On Nov 17, 2016, at 8:03 AM, Lewis Bergman  wrote:

All ROW are already in place.  Few road crossings in rural areas but in 
cities close to standard numbers of road crossings. 

On Thu, Nov 17, 2016, 6:53 AM  wrote:

  Just don't forget that there will be costs not related to construction 
both before and after.

  Some of them are onetime costs, not related to mileage like planning, 
permits and the like. This is one reason costs are all over the map, because it 
depends on how many miles you can spread fixed prebuild costs.

  Others are ongoing costs which will keep eating at you, even after you 
finish construction. Various reporting requirements and paperwork, locates, 
repairs, maintenance, etc. Even when you have a brand new plant you have to 
budget for OPEX.

  Jared

  > Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2016 at 2:27 PM
  > From: "Mark Radabaugh" 
  > To: af@afmug.com
  > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Fiber Cost
  >

  > All over the place.   10k to 200k depending location. Rural direct 
plowed in good soil with no duct and nothing in the way?   12k is about as low 
as I have seen quoted.Road crossings, boring, rock, urban, rail crossings, 
pipeline crossings will all add to that number.
  >
  > Mark
  >
  >
  > > On Nov 17, 2016, at 5:52 AM, Lewis Bergman  
wrote:
  > >
  > > I know we have discussed this before but I wanted a current cost for 
backhaul fiber per mile in the ground.
  >
  >

Re: [AFMUG] Fiber Cost

2016-11-17 Thread Josh Luthman

When you say duct you mean this orange conduit, right?

https://www.bdiky.com/siteadmin/includes/javascript/third_party/kcfinder/upload/images/3N1%20Boreable%20Conduit.jpg


Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 11:05 AM, Chuck McCown  wrote:

> I would never do direct again.  Gopher damage.  Doesn’t happen with duct.
> Plus with duct you can cut and pull out and go over and under anytime you
> want.  Saves in splicing and figure 8 ing etc.
> Duct is worth the extra expense.  And it is not really that expensive.
>
> *From:* Mark Radabaugh
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 17, 2016 6:14 AM
> *To:* af@afmug.com
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Fiber Cost
>
> Duct or direct plow makes a difference.   Direct is cheaper but damage is
> much harder, takes longer to repair, and increases your maintenance cost
> over time.  With direct bury you have no ability to pull slack or add new
> handholes for access.  In the event of a fiber cut without duct the repair
> usually involves exposing 100’ of cable on either side of the damage and
> splicing in a new section of cable which will require double the number of
> splices and splice cases versus duct where you can pull spare cable in.
>
> Mark
>
>
> On Nov 17, 2016, at 8:03 AM, Lewis Bergman 
> wrote:
>
>
> All ROW are already in place.  Few road crossings in rural areas but in
> cities close to standard numbers of road crossings.
>
> On Thu, Nov 17, 2016, 6:53 AM  wrote:
>
>> Just don't forget that there will be costs not related to construction
>> both before and after.
>>
>> Some of them are onetime costs, not related to mileage like planning,
>> permits and the like. This is one reason costs are all over the map,
>> because it depends on how many miles you can spread fixed prebuild costs.
>>
>> Others are ongoing costs which will keep eating at you, even after you
>> finish construction. Various reporting requirements and paperwork, locates,
>> repairs, maintenance, etc. Even when you have a brand new plant you have to
>> budget for OPEX.
>>
>> Jared
>>
>>
>> > Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2016 at 2:27 PM
>> > From: "Mark Radabaugh" 
>> > To: af@afmug.com
>> > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Fiber Cost
>> >
>> > All over the place.   10k to 200k depending location. Rural direct
>> plowed in good soil with no duct and nothing in the way?   12k is about as
>> low as I have seen quoted.Road crossings, boring, rock, urban, rail
>> crossings, pipeline crossings will all add to that number.
>> >
>> > Mark
>> >
>> >
>> > > On Nov 17, 2016, at 5:52 AM, Lewis Bergman 
>> wrote:
>> > >
>> > > I know we have discussed this before but I wanted a current cost for
>> backhaul fiber per mile in the ground.
>> >
>> >
>>
>
>

Re: [AFMUG] Fiber Cost

2016-11-17 Thread Chuck McCown

I would never do direct again.  Gopher damage.  Doesn’t happen with duct.  
Plus with duct you can cut and pull out and go over and under anytime you want. 
 Saves in splicing and figure 8 ing etc.
Duct is worth the extra expense.  And it is not really that expensive.  

From: Mark Radabaugh 
Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2016 6:14 AM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Fiber Cost

Duct or direct plow makes a difference.   Direct is cheaper but damage is much 
harder, takes longer to repair, and increases your maintenance cost over time.  
With direct bury you have no ability to pull slack or add new handholes for 
access.  In the event of a fiber cut without duct the repair usually involves 
exposing 100’ of cable on either side of the damage and splicing in a new 
section of cable which will require double the number of splices and splice 
cases versus duct where you can pull spare cable in.

Mark

  On Nov 17, 2016, at 8:03 AM, Lewis Bergman  wrote:

  All ROW are already in place.  Few road crossings in rural areas but in 
cities close to standard numbers of road crossings. 

  On Thu, Nov 17, 2016, 6:53 AM  wrote:

Just don't forget that there will be costs not related to construction both 
before and after.

Some of them are onetime costs, not related to mileage like planning, 
permits and the like. This is one reason costs are all over the map, because it 
depends on how many miles you can spread fixed prebuild costs.

Others are ongoing costs which will keep eating at you, even after you 
finish construction. Various reporting requirements and paperwork, locates, 
repairs, maintenance, etc. Even when you have a brand new plant you have to 
budget for OPEX.

Jared

> Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2016 at 2:27 PM
> From: "Mark Radabaugh" 
> To: af@afmug.com
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Fiber Cost
>
> All over the place.   10k to 200k depending location. Rural direct 
plowed in good soil with no duct and nothing in the way?   12k is about as low 
as I have seen quoted.Road crossings, boring, rock, urban, rail crossings, 
pipeline crossings will all add to that number.
>
> Mark
>
>
> > On Nov 17, 2016, at 5:52 AM, Lewis Bergman  
wrote:
> >
> > I know we have discussed this before but I wanted a current cost for 
backhaul fiber per mile in the ground.
>
>

Re: [AFMUG] Space X, Satellite internet 1 GBPS, FCC

2016-11-17 Thread Jon Bruce

"The systemï¿½s use of low-Earth orbits will allow it to target latencies 
of approximately 25-35 ms."


On 11/17/2016 10:56 AM, Andreas Wiatowski wrote:


Wowï¿½ that would be incredible if it gets off the ground.  We know that 
he can get cargo into space nowï¿½so it is a high probability. Wonder 
what the latency would be?ï¿½. Probably at least 100ms or betterï¿½I would 
think.


Cheers,

__

Andreas Wiatowski | CEO

Silo Wireless Inc.

Email andr...@silowireless.com

19 Sage Court

Brantford, Ontario N3R 7T4 (CANADA)

Tel +1.519.449.5656  Extension-600|Fax +1.519.449.5536 |Toll Free 
+1.866.727.4138


*From:* Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Tushar Patel
*Sent:* Thursday, November 17, 2016 9:01 AM
*To:* af@afmug.com
*Subject:* [AFMUG] Space X, Satellite internet 1 GBPS, FCC

http://www.businessinsider.com/spacex-internet-satellite-constellation-2016-11

Re: [AFMUG] Van vs Tractor Oops..

2016-11-17 Thread Chuck McCown


Did that to my house once.

-Original Message- 
From: Roland Houin 
Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2016 7:14 PM 
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: [AFMUG] Van vs Tractor Oops..

Re: [AFMUG] Space X, Satellite internet 1 GBPS, FCC

2016-11-17 Thread Andreas Wiatowski

Wow... that would be incredible if it gets off the ground.  We know that he can 
get cargo into space now...so it is a high probability.  Wonder what the 
latency would be? Probably at least 100ms or better...I would think.

Cheers,
__
Andreas Wiatowski | CEO
Silo Wireless Inc.
Email  andr...@silowireless.com
19 Sage Court
Brantford, Ontario N3R 7T4 (CANADA)
Tel +1.519.449.5656  Extension-600|Fax +1.519.449.5536 |Toll Free 
+1.866.727.4138

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Tushar Patel
Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2016 9:01 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: [AFMUG] Space X, Satellite internet 1 GBPS, FCC

http://www.businessinsider.com/spacex-internet-satellite-constellation-2016-11

Re: [AFMUG] Customer router impact on 5G 450 connection

2016-11-17 Thread Ken Hohhof

I can’t answer from personal knowledge, but I believe there have been previous 
posts that Direct TV uses 5 GHz and no you cannot program the channel, it 
automagically chooses.  Bringing up the previous comments about perversely 
choosing the channel your Cambium or other non-WiFi gear is on.

 

 

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Brian Sullivan
Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2016 9:20 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Customer router impact on 5G 450 connection

 

Does anyone know what frequencies DirecTV, and DISH use for wireless receivers? 
 Any way to adjust them if needed?

On 11/16/2016 5:14 PM, Ken Hohhof wrote:

Unless you have a device that is acting as its own AP, like Direct TV Wireless 
Video Bridge, or some wireless printers.

Re: [AFMUG] Customer router impact on 5G 450 connection

2016-11-17 Thread Brian Sullivan

Does anyone know what frequencies DirecTV, and DISH use for wireless 
receivers?  Any way to adjust them if needed?


On 11/16/2016 5:14 PM, Ken Hohhof wrote:
Unless you have a device that is acting as its own AP, like Direct TV 
Wireless Video Bridge, or some wireless printers.

[AFMUG] Space X, Satellite internet 1 GBPS, FCC

2016-11-17 Thread Tushar Patel

http://www.businessinsider.com/spacex-internet-satellite-constellation-2016-
11

Re: [AFMUG] Fiber Cost

2016-11-17 Thread Mark Radabaugh

Duct or direct plow makes a difference.   Direct is cheaper but damage is much 
harder, takes longer to repair, and increases your maintenance cost over time.  
With direct bury you have no ability to pull slack or add new handholes for 
access.  In the event of a fiber cut without duct the repair usually involves 
exposing 100’ of cable on either side of the damage and splicing in a new 
section of cable which will require double the number of splices and splice 
cases versus duct where you can pull spare cable in.

Mark

> On Nov 17, 2016, at 8:03 AM, Lewis Bergman  wrote:
> 
> All ROW are already in place.  Few road crossings in rural areas but in 
> cities close to standard numbers of road crossings.
> 
> 
> On Thu, Nov 17, 2016, 6:53 AM > 
> wrote:
> Just don't forget that there will be costs not related to construction both 
> before and after.
> 
> Some of them are onetime costs, not related to mileage like planning, permits 
> and the like. This is one reason costs are all over the map, because it 
> depends on how many miles you can spread fixed prebuild costs.
> 
> Others are ongoing costs which will keep eating at you, even after you finish 
> construction. Various reporting requirements and paperwork, locates, repairs, 
> maintenance, etc. Even when you have a brand new plant you have to budget for 
> OPEX.
> 
> Jared
> 
> 
> > Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2016 at 2:27 PM
> > From: "Mark Radabaugh" >
> > To: af@afmug.com 
> > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Fiber Cost
> >
> > All over the place.   10k to 200k depending location. Rural direct 
> > plowed in good soil with no duct and nothing in the way?   12k is about as 
> > low as I have seen quoted.Road crossings, boring, rock, urban, rail 
> > crossings, pipeline crossings will all add to that number.
> >
> > Mark
> >
> >
> > > On Nov 17, 2016, at 5:52 AM, Lewis Bergman  > > > wrote:
> > >
> > > I know we have discussed this before but I wanted a current cost for 
> > > backhaul fiber per mile in the ground.
> >
> >

Re: [AFMUG] Fiber Cost

2016-11-17 Thread Lewis Bergman

All ROW are already in place.  Few road crossings in rural areas but in
cities close to standard numbers of road crossings.

On Thu, Nov 17, 2016, 6:53 AM  wrote:

> Just don't forget that there will be costs not related to construction
> both before and after.
>
> Some of them are onetime costs, not related to mileage like planning,
> permits and the like. This is one reason costs are all over the map,
> because it depends on how many miles you can spread fixed prebuild costs.
>
> Others are ongoing costs which will keep eating at you, even after you
> finish construction. Various reporting requirements and paperwork, locates,
> repairs, maintenance, etc. Even when you have a brand new plant you have to
> budget for OPEX.
>
> Jared
>
>
> > Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2016 at 2:27 PM
> > From: "Mark Radabaugh" 
> > To: af@afmug.com
> > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Fiber Cost
> >
> > All over the place.   10k to 200k depending location. Rural direct
> plowed in good soil with no duct and nothing in the way?   12k is about as
> low as I have seen quoted.Road crossings, boring, rock, urban, rail
> crossings, pipeline crossings will all add to that number.
> >
> > Mark
> >
> >
> > > On Nov 17, 2016, at 5:52 AM, Lewis Bergman 
> wrote:
> > >
> > > I know we have discussed this before but I wanted a current cost for
> backhaul fiber per mile in the ground.
> >
> >
>

Re: [AFMUG] Fiber Cost

2016-11-17 Thread fiberrun

Just don't forget that there will be costs not related to construction both 
before and after. 

Some of them are onetime costs, not related to mileage like planning, permits 
and the like. This is one reason costs are all over the map, because it depends 
on how many miles you can spread fixed prebuild costs. 

Others are ongoing costs which will keep eating at you, even after you finish 
construction. Various reporting requirements and paperwork, locates, repairs, 
maintenance, etc. Even when you have a brand new plant you have to budget for 
OPEX. 

Jared

> Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2016 at 2:27 PM
> From: "Mark Radabaugh" 
> To: af@afmug.com
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Fiber Cost
>
> All over the place.   10k to 200k depending location. Rural direct plowed 
> in good soil with no duct and nothing in the way?   12k is about as low as I 
> have seen quoted.Road crossings, boring, rock, urban, rail crossings, 
> pipeline crossings will all add to that number.   
> 
> Mark
> 
> 
> > On Nov 17, 2016, at 5:52 AM, Lewis Bergman  wrote:
> > 
> > I know we have discussed this before but I wanted a current cost for 
> > backhaul fiber per mile in the ground.
> 
>

Re: [AFMUG] Fiber Cost

2016-11-17 Thread Mark Radabaugh

All over the place.   10k to 200k depending location. Rural direct plowed 
in good soil with no duct and nothing in the way?   12k is about as low as I 
have seen quoted.Road crossings, boring, rock, urban, rail crossings, 
pipeline crossings will all add to that number.   

Mark

> On Nov 17, 2016, at 5:52 AM, Lewis Bergman  wrote:
> 
> I know we have discussed this before but I wanted a current cost for backhaul 
> fiber per mile in the ground.

[AFMUG] Fiber Cost

2016-11-17 Thread Lewis Bergman

I know we have discussed this before but I wanted a current cost for
backhaul fiber per mile in the ground.

Re: [AFMUG] Packetflux & 450M Timing

2016-11-17 Thread Gino Villarini

Ok, tks

From: Af > on behalf of Sean 
Heskett >
Reply-To: "af@afmug.com" 
>
Date: Wednesday, November 16, 2016 at 3:51 PM
To: "af@afmug.com" >
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Packetflux & 450M Timing

hey gino,

we are waiting for the FCC to approve the DFS band before we move clients to 
the 450m's.  We had to get them on the tower and alive tho because it's about 
to be snow season and one tower is at the top of the ski area, the other tower 
is across the valley.

I'll report more once we have clients attached.  right now i don't have much to 
say other than they are powered on and have sync ;-)

-sean

Gino Villarini

President
Metro Office Park #18 Suite 304 Guaynabo, Puerto Rico 00968

[cid:aeronet-logo_310cfc3e-6691-4f69-bd49-b37b834b9238.png]

On Wed, Nov 16, 2016 at 7:41 AM, Gino Villarini 
> wrote:
So what has been the experience with the 450M?

From: Af > on behalf of Sean 
Heskett >
Reply-To: "af@afmug.com" 
>
Date: Tuesday, November 15, 2016 at 8:17 PM
To: "af@afmug.com" >
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Packetflux & 450M Timing

So interesting story here...we have three 450m's in the air and they are 
getting sync over power from a packetflux gigabit sync injector & timing over 
timing port via a packetflux sync injector 12.

Old style sync seems to work just fine on the 450m.

-Sean

Gino Villarini

President
Metro Office Park #18 Suite 304 Guaynabo, Puerto Rico 00968

[cid:aeronet-logo_310cfc3e-6691-4f69-bd49-b37b834b9238.png]

On Tue, Nov 15, 2016 at 4:06 PM Bill Prince 
> wrote:
Based on what others have said, I think it is all part of the "Precision Timing 
Protocol", it is an IP-based way of distributing timing information. Look up 
IEEE 1588-2008, or Precision Timing Protocol Version 2.

No more timing pulses.

On Tuesday, November 15, 2016 3:03 PM, Chuck McCown 
> wrote:

Well, sending a pulse sounds like AM to me.  Perhaps level shifting would be a 
better term to use.

From: Daniel White
Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2016 3:40 PM
To:af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Packetflux & 450M Timing

Something completely new.

Instead of interrupting power, they are sending a “pulse” of power per sync 
pulse.  I don’t recall the details on it at this point.

CMM5 FYI is looking like December availability now.

Daniel White
Managing Director – Hardware Distribution Sales
ConVergence Technologies
Cell: +1 (303) 746-3590
dwh...@converge-tech.com

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf 
Of George Skorup
Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2016 12:40 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Packetflux & 450M Timing

So.. is "Cambium Sync" still a power interruption scheme or something 
completely new? I thought the thing they were going to move to was 1588v2?
On 11/15/2016 1:26 AM, Forrest Christian (List Account) wrote:
I guess I need to be more clear on this. ..
There are two types of sync over power.
The first is being called Canopy sync,  which is compatible  with the 450i and 
earlier radios.
The second is being called Cambium sync and is compatible with the 450M and I'm 
guessing later radios.
Currently there are devices that produce the cambium sync pulse...  The CMM5 
and I'm about 100% certain that Last Mile Gear has one as well.   I have the 
technical information I need,  just haven't had a chance to get the circuit 
designed (I only received it shortly before wispapalooza), let alone tested.

On Nov 14, 2016 7:52 PM, "Forrest Christian (List Account)" 
 wrote:
No,  Cambium elected  to drop the traditional sync over power on the 450M.
So,  you either need to use timing port sync (via the aux port) or use what 
they're calling cambium sync.
The 1U injector is very close.  I need to finish validation on the latest board 
revisions and then will be releasing it to production assuming there isn't some 
showstopper I missed.

On Nov 14, 2016 7:34 PM, "Matt"  wrote:
Shouldn't the sync over power for the 450M be the same as PMP450i?

How is the 1u sync injector coming?

On Mon, Nov 14, 2016 at 12:30 PM, Forrest Christian (List Account)
 wrote:
> All of the currently shipping syncbox product line are compatible.  For sync
> over power, I have the specs, but the design isn't done yet.
>
>
> On Nov 14, 2016 5:40 PM, "Sam Lambie"  wrote:
>>
>> A question for Forrest mostly. Have you come up with a timing

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