Re: [AFMUG] Tesswave antennas

[Jerry Head]

+1


On 1/19/2018 1:58 PM, Colin Stanners wrote:
Has anyone dealt with Tesswave antennas? Trying to contact them since 
they seem to be the only company with 120deg dual-slant 900mhz 
sectors, but haven't received any replies.


Thanks,
-C

Re: [AFMUG] OT tech wiki

[Adam Moffett]

My complaint with a wiki was that it was very clunky to add non-text 
content.  I like to use a lot of diagrams and photos.

Might give this One Note thing a spin.


-- Original Message --
From: "Eric Kuhnke" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: 1/20/2018 12:49:45 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT tech wiki

I can't say who, but one of the largest last-mile ISPs on the entire 
west coast (WA/OR/CA) uses mediawiki for nearly 100% of their internal 
documentation. Organized per POP.




On Sat, Jan 20, 2018 at 9:44 AM,  wrote:
Yeah, I think mediawiki is the way to go.  I started down that path 
once but not being well versed in Linux I stopped.  We can get that 
implemented.
I just hate losing corporate/institutional memory every time a tech 
decides to go to college or go to work for Google/Ebay/Adobe... (we 
ain’t called Silicon Slopes for nuthing)


From:Eric Kuhnke
Sent: Saturday, January 20, 2018 10:41 AM
To:af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT tech wiki

My objection is not about the cost, which is nominal, but about the 
principle of going down the path of what can become a 
business-critical function offloaded to a third party, where you don't 
have full access to your own database/back-end.




On Sat, Jan 20, 2018 at 9:35 AM, Josh Baird  
wrote:

Confluence is only $10 for 10 users.  That’s my recommendation.

On Jan 20, 2018, at 12:26 PM, Eric Kuhnke  
wrote:


Full mediawiki, the same software that runs the backend of 
wikipedia. If you are not a competent Linux sysadmin, you are going 
to want to get one to set it up and maintain it. It's vastly more 
powerful and extensible than a medium sized ISP could ever need. I 
predict we will see people here recommend Confluence and other 
commercial solutions, but in my opinion all proper wiki software for 
serious use should be composed of 100% BSD, GPL and Apache licensed 
software.


On Sat, Jan 20, 2018 at 9:16 AM,  wrote:
I want it to be in wiki format.  An ongoing knowledge base.  We had 
one at a former company and it was great.  But I was not the one 
that installed it so I don’t know what is involved in that.


From:Steve Jones
Sent: Saturday, January 20, 2018 10:14 AM
To:af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT tech wiki

if its not public, i use OneNote
its not in the wiki format but it logs changes, logs who made 
changes and allows multiuser access


On Sat, Jan 20, 2018 at 11:06 AM,  wrote:

What is the most pain free way to create a wiki?

Re: [AFMUG] OT SSL Certs

[Robert Andrews]

That post needs to be officially quarantined before this list shows up 
on the Today show...


On 01/20/2018 12:47 PM, Jaime Solorza wrote:
Ha...we can still look and what is inside our brains and souls is up to 
our conscience.

Now if you like to look at her pictures with one hand...well...
Jaime Solorza

On Jan 20, 2018 1:33 PM, "Chuck McCown" > wrote:


Well... I have several thoughts about that, but I don’t want to get
on any “me too” hit lists...
*From:* Jaime Solorza
*Sent:* Saturday, January 20, 2018 1:26 PM
*To:* Animal Farm
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT SSL Certs
Does that include pictures of Danika in wet T-shirt?

Jaime Solorza
On Jan 20, 2018 12:57 PM,  wrote:

Godaddy is $74.99/year.  So I guess it is not that bad of a deal.
*From:* Eric Kuhnke
*Sent:* Saturday, January 20, 2018 10:52 AM
*To:* af@afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT SSL Certs
If you have a customer facing credit card portal it is worth the
$85/year that an EV SSL cert costs, in my opinion, for the GUI
change with the big friendly green banner in most browsers.

For anything else, no, use letsencrypt.


EV SSL used to cost $350-400/year, is is a lot less costly now.


On Sat, Jan 20, 2018 at 8:34 AM,  wrote:

My GoDaddy SSL is coming up for renewal.  Is there any
reason to continue to pay for SSL certs since you can get
them for free and  you can even make your own?

Re: [AFMUG] OT tech wiki

[Robert Andrews]

I had gotten convinced to go down the samepage route at one point. 
Well everything there is now a smoke cloud because they decided to 
pivot.   Own your own shit...   Frick'n internet companies are perfectly 
described by calling them cloud computing.   A sunny day and they are 
gone!   ( & I am an ex-netscaper )..


On 01/20/2018 11:57 AM, David Coudron wrote:
OneNote has also proven to be very useful for us.   We use it for 
traditional Wiki types of things as well as instructions for 
configuration, etc. as Steve mentioned.   The ability to clip 
information into OneNote (pics, URLs, emails, etc) is tremendous and the 
searching is very competent.   We have used Jira (Confluence) and other 
more traditional wikis, they are good for very high volume, but have a 
bigger learning curve in order to get things organized correctly. Our 
enterprise customers are pretty committed to Jira, but they are also 
using it for Agile software development in a lot of cases.


Our only concern may be the scalability of OneNote, however we haven’t 
run into any limitations as of yet.   It is a pretty impressive piece of 
software.   We use it for non-wiki types of things, like documenting 
decisions from meetings and for personal note taking.


With the right MS Office license it is free.  It is certainly worth 
taking a look if you have a license for it.


Regards,

David Coudron

*From:* Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Steve Jones
*Sent:* Saturday, January 20, 2018 11:57 AM
*To:* af@afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT tech wiki

OneNote is perfect for that, not really a "database" but neither is a wiki

We have a troubleshooting section for repeated issues

I use it for pbx programming tasks for customers who are taking over 
management of certain things


Try out one note 2013 if you can lay hands on that version. poke around 
at it


mine arent as organized as they should be, its like any binder, you fill 
it with notes, intending on tidying them up at some point, but you just 
end up with piles of binders


On Sat, Jan 20, 2018 at 11:35 AM, > wrote:


I know nothing about OneNote, so speaking from a position of total
ignorance here, I don’t care about creating a log or history of
problems with particular customers, our billing software does that
very well.

I want to have a quickly searchable database.  For example, this
morning I have a customer that is having a problem of callers to his
house receiving an all circuits busy or re-order tone.  I want to be
able to search on things like: wireshark SIP filter settings, SIP
messages for inbound calls.  Things unique to our particular
company.  Shared notes that are searchable for all.  ONT configs,
router upgrade notes, info, configs, methods etc etc.

I would start with our ServerPlus decision tree and add to it with
hints and tips as to how to fix each problem etc.

*From:*Steve Jones

*Sent:*Saturday, January 20, 2018 10:21 AM

*To:*af@afmug.com 

*Subject:*Re: [AFMUG] OT tech wiki

OneNote is WAY better for that. thats where I maintain all our
documentation. try it out, not the App, the actual program. ive
stayed with 2013 because it flows better. It like a digital binder,
less restrictive than any wiki i ever met. drag and drop stuff. i
embed alot of excel files, they view-able directly and then editable
outside the page but save right back. its sexy for ip space
management. the only drawback is you can only go like 4 sub pages
deep per section. i do job orders for contractors in it and export
them as pdf, sexy, all sexy

On Sat, Jan 20, 2018 at 11:16 AM, mailto:ch...@wbmfg.com>> wrote:

I want it to be in wiki format.  An ongoing knowledge base.  We
had one at a former company and it was great.  But I was not the
one that installed it so I don’t know what is involved in that.

*From:*Steve Jones

*Sent:*Saturday, January 20, 2018 10:14 AM

*To:*af@afmug.com 

*Subject:*Re: [AFMUG] OT tech wiki

if its not public, i use OneNote

its not in the wiki format but it logs changes, logs who made
changes and allows multiuser access

On Sat, Jan 20, 2018 at 11:06 AM, mailto:ch...@wbmfg.com>> wrote:

What is the most pain free way to create a wiki?

Re: [AFMUG] OT SSL Certs

[Jaime Solorza]

Ha...

Jaime Solorza

On Jan 20, 2018 2:19 PM, "Chuck McCown"  wrote:

> The thought police had a drone overhead this morning.  I had to go to my
> happy place...
>
> *From:* Jaime Solorza
> *Sent:* Saturday, January 20, 2018 1:47 PM
> *To:* Animal Farm
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT SSL Certs
>
> Ha...we can still look and what is inside our brains and souls is up to
> our conscience.
> Now if you like to look at her pictures with one hand...well...
> Jaime Solorza
>
> On Jan 20, 2018 1:33 PM, "Chuck McCown"  wrote:
>
>> Well... I have several thoughts about that, but I don’t want to get on
>> any “me too” hit lists...
>>
>> *From:* Jaime Solorza
>> *Sent:* Saturday, January 20, 2018 1:26 PM
>> *To:* Animal Farm
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT SSL Certs
>>
>> Does that include pictures of Danika in wet T-shirt?
>>
>> Jaime Solorza
>>
>> On Jan 20, 2018 12:57 PM,  wrote:
>>
>>> Godaddy is $74.99/year.  So I guess it is not that bad of a deal.
>>>
>>> *From:* Eric Kuhnke
>>> *Sent:* Saturday, January 20, 2018 10:52 AM
>>> *To:* af@afmug.com
>>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT SSL Certs
>>>
>>> If you have a customer facing credit card portal it is worth the
>>> $85/year that an EV SSL cert costs, in my opinion, for the GUI change with
>>> the big friendly green banner in most browsers.
>>>
>>> For anything else, no, use letsencrypt.
>>>
>>>
>>> EV SSL used to cost $350-400/year, is is a lot less costly now.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, Jan 20, 2018 at 8:34 AM,  wrote:
>>>
 My GoDaddy SSL is coming up for renewal.  Is there any reason to
 continue to pay for SSL certs since you can get them for free and  you can
 even make your own?

>>>
>>>
>>

Re: [AFMUG] OT SSL Certs

[Chuck McCown]

The thought police had a drone overhead this morning.  I had to go to my happy 
place...

From: Jaime Solorza 
Sent: Saturday, January 20, 2018 1:47 PM
To: Animal Farm 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT SSL Certs

Ha...we can still look and what is inside our brains and souls is up to our 
conscience. 
Now if you like to look at her pictures with one hand...well...

Jaime Solorza

On Jan 20, 2018 1:33 PM, "Chuck McCown"  wrote:

  Well... I have several thoughts about that, but I don’t want to get on any 
“me too” hit lists...

  From: Jaime Solorza 
  Sent: Saturday, January 20, 2018 1:26 PM
  To: Animal Farm 
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT SSL Certs

  Does that include pictures of Danika in wet T-shirt? 


  Jaime Solorza

  On Jan 20, 2018 12:57 PM,  wrote:

Godaddy is $74.99/year.  So I guess it is not that bad of a deal.  

From: Eric Kuhnke 
Sent: Saturday, January 20, 2018 10:52 AM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT SSL Certs

If you have a customer facing credit card portal it is worth the $85/year 
that an EV SSL cert costs, in my opinion, for the GUI change with the big 
friendly green banner in most browsers.


For anything else, no, use letsencrypt.



EV SSL used to cost $350-400/year, is is a lot less costly now.




On Sat, Jan 20, 2018 at 8:34 AM,  wrote:

  My GoDaddy SSL is coming up for renewal.  Is there any reason to continue 
to pay for SSL certs since you can get them for free and  you can even make 
your own?

Re: [AFMUG] OT SSL Certs

[Jaime Solorza]

Ha...we can still look and what is inside our brains and souls is up to our
conscience.
Now if you like to look at her pictures with one hand...well...
Jaime Solorza

On Jan 20, 2018 1:33 PM, "Chuck McCown"  wrote:

> Well... I have several thoughts about that, but I don’t want to get on any
> “me too” hit lists...
>
> *From:* Jaime Solorza
> *Sent:* Saturday, January 20, 2018 1:26 PM
> *To:* Animal Farm
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT SSL Certs
>
> Does that include pictures of Danika in wet T-shirt?
>
> Jaime Solorza
>
> On Jan 20, 2018 12:57 PM,  wrote:
>
>> Godaddy is $74.99/year.  So I guess it is not that bad of a deal.
>>
>> *From:* Eric Kuhnke
>> *Sent:* Saturday, January 20, 2018 10:52 AM
>> *To:* af@afmug.com
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT SSL Certs
>>
>> If you have a customer facing credit card portal it is worth the $85/year
>> that an EV SSL cert costs, in my opinion, for the GUI change with the big
>> friendly green banner in most browsers.
>>
>> For anything else, no, use letsencrypt.
>>
>>
>> EV SSL used to cost $350-400/year, is is a lot less costly now.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Jan 20, 2018 at 8:34 AM,  wrote:
>>
>>> My GoDaddy SSL is coming up for renewal.  Is there any reason to
>>> continue to pay for SSL certs since you can get them for free and  you can
>>> even make your own?
>>>
>>
>>
>

Re: [AFMUG] OT SSL Certs

[Simon Westlake]

It's fine even for that. It's trusted by all major browsers, and nobody 
really cares about EV SSL (IMO.) I don't think typical consumers even 
understand the difference, really.


If you're not doing an EV SSL, it's totally not worth paying for 
anymore. The only reason I'm still paying for SSL is that Let's Encrypt 
doesn't do wildcard SSL yet.


On 1/20/2018 10:42 AM, ch...@wbmfg.com wrote:

Oh, shopping carts yes, I have shopping carts.
*From:* Mike Hammett
*Sent:* Saturday, January 20, 2018 9:39 AM
*To:* af@afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT SSL Certs
I think LetsEncrypt is fine for everything except shopping carts.



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 





*From: *ch...@wbmfg.com
*To: *af@afmug.com
*Sent: *Saturday, January 20, 2018 10:34:34 AM
*Subject: *[AFMUG] OT SSL Certs

My GoDaddy SSL is coming up for renewal.  Is there any reason to 
continue to pay for SSL certs since you can get them for free and  you 
can even make your own?


--
Simon Westlake
Email: simon@sonar.software
Phone: (702) 447-1247 US / (780) 900-1180 CA
---
Sonar Software Inc
The future of ISP billing and OSS
https://sonar.software

Re: [AFMUG] OT SSL Certs

[Chuck McCown]

Well... I have several thoughts about that, but I don’t want to get on any “me 
too” hit lists...

From: Jaime Solorza 
Sent: Saturday, January 20, 2018 1:26 PM
To: Animal Farm 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT SSL Certs

Does that include pictures of Danika in wet T-shirt? 


Jaime Solorza

On Jan 20, 2018 12:57 PM,  wrote:

  Godaddy is $74.99/year.  So I guess it is not that bad of a deal.  

  From: Eric Kuhnke 
  Sent: Saturday, January 20, 2018 10:52 AM
  To: af@afmug.com 
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT SSL Certs

  If you have a customer facing credit card portal it is worth the $85/year 
that an EV SSL cert costs, in my opinion, for the GUI change with the big 
friendly green banner in most browsers.


  For anything else, no, use letsencrypt.



  EV SSL used to cost $350-400/year, is is a lot less costly now.




  On Sat, Jan 20, 2018 at 8:34 AM,  wrote:

My GoDaddy SSL is coming up for renewal.  Is there any reason to continue 
to pay for SSL certs since you can get them for free and  you can even make 
your own?

Re: [AFMUG] OT SSL Certs

[Jaime Solorza]

Does that include pictures of Danika in wet T-shirt?

Jaime Solorza

On Jan 20, 2018 12:57 PM,  wrote:

> Godaddy is $74.99/year.  So I guess it is not that bad of a deal.
>
> *From:* Eric Kuhnke
> *Sent:* Saturday, January 20, 2018 10:52 AM
> *To:* af@afmug.com
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT SSL Certs
>
> If you have a customer facing credit card portal it is worth the $85/year
> that an EV SSL cert costs, in my opinion, for the GUI change with the big
> friendly green banner in most browsers.
>
> For anything else, no, use letsencrypt.
>
>
> EV SSL used to cost $350-400/year, is is a lot less costly now.
>
>
>
> On Sat, Jan 20, 2018 at 8:34 AM,  wrote:
>
>> My GoDaddy SSL is coming up for renewal.  Is there any reason to continue
>> to pay for SSL certs since you can get them for free and  you can even make
>> your own?
>>
>
>

Re: [AFMUG] OT SSL Certs

[chuck]

Godaddy is $74.99/year.  So I guess it is not that bad of a deal.  

From: Eric Kuhnke 
Sent: Saturday, January 20, 2018 10:52 AM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT SSL Certs

If you have a customer facing credit card portal it is worth the $85/year that 
an EV SSL cert costs, in my opinion, for the GUI change with the big friendly 
green banner in most browsers.


For anything else, no, use letsencrypt.



EV SSL used to cost $350-400/year, is is a lot less costly now.




On Sat, Jan 20, 2018 at 8:34 AM,  wrote:

  My GoDaddy SSL is coming up for renewal.  Is there any reason to continue to 
pay for SSL certs since you can get them for free and  you can even make your 
own?

Re: [AFMUG] OT tech wiki

[David Coudron]

OneNote has also proven to be very useful for us.   We use it for traditional 
Wiki types of things as well as instructions for configuration, etc. as Steve 
mentioned.   The ability to clip information into OneNote (pics, URLs, emails, 
etc) is tremendous and the searching is very competent.   We have used Jira 
(Confluence) and other more traditional wikis, they are good for very high 
volume, but have a bigger learning curve in order to get things organized 
correctly.  Our enterprise customers are pretty committed to Jira, but they are 
also using it for Agile software development in a lot of cases.

Our only concern may be the scalability of OneNote, however we haven’t run into 
any limitations as of yet.   It is a pretty impressive piece of software.   We 
use it for non-wiki types of things, like documenting decisions from meetings 
and for personal note taking.

With the right MS Office license it is free.  It is certainly worth taking a 
look if you have a license for it.

Regards,

David Coudron


From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Steve Jones
Sent: Saturday, January 20, 2018 11:57 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT tech wiki

OneNote is perfect for that, not really a "database" but neither is a wiki
We have a troubleshooting section for repeated issues
I use it for pbx programming tasks for customers who are taking over management 
of certain things
Try out one note 2013 if you can lay hands on that version. poke around at it
mine arent as organized as they should be, its like any binder, you fill it 
with notes, intending on tidying them up at some point, but you just end up 
with piles of binders

On Sat, Jan 20, 2018 at 11:35 AM, mailto:ch...@wbmfg.com>> 
wrote:
I know nothing about OneNote, so speaking from a position of total ignorance 
here, I don’t care about creating a log or history of problems with particular 
customers, our billing software does that very well.

I want to have a quickly searchable database.  For example, this morning I have 
a customer that is having a problem of callers to his house receiving an all 
circuits busy or re-order tone.  I want to be able to search on things like: 
wireshark SIP filter settings, SIP messages for inbound calls.  Things unique 
to our particular company.  Shared notes that are searchable for all.  ONT 
configs, router upgrade notes, info, configs, methods etc etc.

I would start with our ServerPlus decision tree and add to it with hints and 
tips as to how to fix each problem etc.

From: Steve Jones
Sent: Saturday, January 20, 2018 10:21 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT tech wiki

OneNote is WAY better for that. thats where I maintain all our documentation. 
try it out, not the App, the actual program. ive stayed with 2013 because it 
flows better. It like a digital binder, less restrictive than any wiki i ever 
met. drag and drop stuff. i embed alot of excel files, they view-able directly 
and then editable outside the page but save right back. its sexy for ip space 
management. the only drawback is you can only go like 4 sub pages deep per 
section. i do job orders for contractors in it and export them as pdf, sexy, 
all sexy

On Sat, Jan 20, 2018 at 11:16 AM, mailto:ch...@wbmfg.com>> 
wrote:
I want it to be in wiki format.  An ongoing knowledge base.  We had one at a 
former company and it was great.  But I was not the one that installed it so I 
don’t know what is involved in that.

From: Steve Jones
Sent: Saturday, January 20, 2018 10:14 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT tech wiki

if its not public, i use OneNote
its not in the wiki format but it logs changes, logs who made changes and 
allows multiuser access

On Sat, Jan 20, 2018 at 11:06 AM, mailto:ch...@wbmfg.com>> 
wrote:
What is the most pain free way to create a wiki?

Re: [AFMUG] Quick comparison between 80GHz and AF24

[Rory Conaway]

Yea, I’m going to now.

Rory

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett
Sent: Saturday, January 20, 2018 12:04 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Quick comparison between 80GHz and AF24

Do the math and you'll know all you need to know.


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
[http://www.ics-il.com/images/fbicon.png][http://www.ics-il.com/images/googleicon.png][http://www.ics-il.com/images/linkedinicon.png][http://www.ics-il.com/images/twittericon.png]
Midwest Internet Exchange
[http://www.ics-il.com/images/fbicon.png][http://www.ics-il.com/images/linkedinicon.png][http://www.ics-il.com/images/twittericon.png]
The Brothers WISP
[http://www.ics-il.com/images/fbicon.png][http://www.ics-il.com/images/youtubeicon.png]




From: "Rory Conaway" mailto:r...@triadwireless.net>>
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: Saturday, January 20, 2018 1:02:53 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Quick comparison between 80GHz and AF24
I’m in Southern Arizona so heavy rain is pretty brief but also why I’m asking 
the question.  I’ve got an AF24 that will drop at 2.5 miles for about an hour a 
year.  I’ve got a 39GHz link at 2 miles that seems pretty solid also but I’m 
open to using that at 3.5 if that has a better chance too.

Rory

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett
Sent: Saturday, January 20, 2018 11:07 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Quick comparison between 80GHz and AF24

Trango's initial 24 GHz radio could do that.


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
[http://www.ics-il.com/images/fbicon.png][http://www.ics-il.com/images/googleicon.png][http://www.ics-il.com/images/linkedinicon.png][http://www.ics-il.com/images/twittericon.png]
Midwest Internet Exchange
[http://www.ics-il.com/images/fbicon.png][http://www.ics-il.com/images/linkedinicon.png][http://www.ics-il.com/images/twittericon.png]
The Brothers WISP
[http://www.ics-il.com/images/fbicon.png][http://www.ics-il.com/images/youtubeicon.png]




From: "Mathew Howard" mailto:mhoward...@gmail.com>>
To: "af" mailto:af@afmug.com>>
Sent: Saturday, January 20, 2018 12:04:15 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Quick comparison between 80GHz and AF24
This is the first I've heard of adaptive channel sizes... I've been looking at 
both Siklu and Bridgewater, and nobody from either company ever mentioned that 
(that doesn't necessarily mean they can't do it though).

On Jan 20, 2018 11:58 AM, "Mike Hammett" 
mailto:af...@ics-il.net>> wrote:
Adaptive channel sizes?



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
[http://www.ics-il.com/images/fbicon.png][http://www.ics-il.com/images/googleicon.png][http://www.ics-il.com/images/linkedinicon.png][http://www.ics-il.com/images/twittericon.png]
Midwest Internet Exchange
[http://www.ics-il.com/images/fbicon.png][http://www.ics-il.com/images/linkedinicon.png][http://www.ics-il.com/images/twittericon.png]
The Brothers WISP
[http://www.ics-il.com/images/fbicon.png][http://www.ics-il.com/images/youtubeicon.png]




From: "Eric Kuhnke" mailto:eric.kuh...@gmail.com>>
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: Saturday, January 20, 2018 11:48:24 AM

Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Quick comparison between 80GHz and AF24
This is not extremely new in 80 GHz, just with different and denser 
modulations. The Siklu 80 GHz stuff has done adaptive coding and modulation for 
a while. The (now 7 year old!

Re: [AFMUG] Quick comparison between 80GHz and AF24

[Mike Hammett]

Do the math and you'll know all you need to know. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: "Rory Conaway"  
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Saturday, January 20, 2018 1:02:53 PM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Quick comparison between 80GHz and AF24 



I’m in Southern Arizona so heavy rain is pretty brief but also why I’m asking 
the question. I’ve got an AF24 that will drop at 2.5 miles for about an hour a 
year. I’ve got a 39GHz link at 2 miles that seems pretty solid also but I’m 
open to using that at 3.5 if that has a better chance too. 

Rory 



From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett 
Sent: Saturday, January 20, 2018 11:07 AM 
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Quick comparison between 80GHz and AF24 


Trango's initial 24 GHz radio could do that. 



- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -


From: "Mathew Howard" < mhoward...@gmail.com > 
To: "af" < af@afmug.com > 
Sent: Saturday, January 20, 2018 12:04:15 PM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Quick comparison between 80GHz and AF24 


This is the first I've heard of adaptive channel sizes... I've been looking at 
both Siklu and Bridgewater, and nobody from either company ever mentioned that 
(that doesn't necessarily mean they can't do it though). 



On Jan 20, 2018 11:58 AM, "Mike Hammett" < af...@ics-il.net > wrote: 


Adaptive channel sizes? 





- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 







From: "Eric Kuhnke" < eric.kuh...@gmail.com > 
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Saturday, January 20, 2018 11:48:24 AM 


Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Quick comparison between 80GHz and AF24 


This is not extremely new in 80 GHz, just with different and denser 
modulations. The Siklu 80 GHz stuff has done adaptive coding and modulation for 
a while. The (now 7 year old!) Bridgewave adaptrate 80 GHz stuff would maintain 
a 100 Mbps link during a rain fade, by switching a nominally QPSK-modulated 
1500 MHz wide channel for 1 Gbps, temporarily down to BPSK during a rain fade 
event. 







On Sat, Jan 20, 2018 at 9:45 AM, Stefan Englhardt < s...@genias.net > wrote: 





Some vendors do some new things to stretch the range of 80GHz: 

http://de.nec.com/de_DE/global/prod/nw/pasolink/products/ipasolinkEX_advanced.html
 ? 

They modulate down and then reduce channel size. 

This gear is in the 20kEuro Range … 








Von: Af [mailto: af-boun...@afmug.com ] Im Auftrag von Faisal Imtiaz 
Gesendet: Samstag, 20. Januar 2018 17:08 
An: af@afmug.com 
Betreff: Re: [AFMUG] Quick comparison between 80GHz and AF24 




We have two things to contend with... 

one is Oxygen Absorption 

second is Rain Fade 



Science says, 24ghz has much less O2 absorption fade vs 80ghz 

Science also says that 24ghz has slightly less Rain fade vs 80ghz 



Science also says that if on a particular link, if one is comparing 24ghz vs 
80ghz, the difference in which link drops first will be based on the TX power / 
Antenna Gain and Rx sensitivity. 



If all things were exactly the same, then 80ghz would drop before 24ghz in Rain 
event. 

But in reality, all things are not the same.. I believe 80ghz one is allowed 
more power, and higher antenna gain. 





https://www.e-band.com/index.php?id=86 



https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/dont-fall-siklu-overbuilds-distance-claims-david-theodore
 





at 3.5miles, one is pushing the limits of both 24gzh as well as 80ghz.. 
Depending on what you are trying to achieve, and the rainzone, you can make 
your choice based on what will perform better normally... cause both of them 
will go out in rain :) 



Best of Luck 



Faisal Imtiaz 
Snappy Internet & Telecom 
http://www.snappytelecom.net 

Tel: 305 663 5518 x 232 

Help-desk: (305)663-5518 Option 2 or Email: supp...@snappytelecom.net 







From: "Mathew Howard" < mhoward...@gmail.com > 
To: "af" < af@afmug.com > 
Sent: Friday, January 19, 2018 8:42:31 PM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Quick comparison between 80GHz and AF24 







I'd guess 24ghz would be slightly better, but either one is going to drop at 
that distance if you ever get heavy rain. 



Somebody from Siklu told me at one time, that some of their customers have told 
then that their rainfade is slightly better than an AF24, but slightly worse 
than an AF24HD... how accurate that is, I don't know. 




On Jan 19, 2018 6:03 PM, "Rory Conaway" < r...@triadwireless.net > wrote: 





I haven’t run the numbers so please save me some time. Which one has less fade 
margin at 3.5 miles? I was going to use Siklu with a 2’ antenna. 

Rory Conaway • Triad Wireless • CEO 
4226 S. 37 th Street • Phoenix • AZ 85040 
602-426-0542 
r...@triadwireless.net 
www.triadwireless.net 

“"Engineers believe that if it ain't broke, it doesn't have enough features 
yet." — Scott Adams 

Re: [AFMUG] Quick comparison between 80GHz and AF24

[Rory Conaway]

I’m in Southern Arizona so heavy rain is pretty brief but also why I’m asking 
the question.  I’ve got an AF24 that will drop at 2.5 miles for about an hour a 
year.  I’ve got a 39GHz link at 2 miles that seems pretty solid also but I’m 
open to using that at 3.5 if that has a better chance too.

Rory

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett
Sent: Saturday, January 20, 2018 11:07 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Quick comparison between 80GHz and AF24

Trango's initial 24 GHz radio could do that.


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
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Midwest Internet Exchange
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From: "Mathew Howard" mailto:mhoward...@gmail.com>>
To: "af" mailto:af@afmug.com>>
Sent: Saturday, January 20, 2018 12:04:15 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Quick comparison between 80GHz and AF24
This is the first I've heard of adaptive channel sizes... I've been looking at 
both Siklu and Bridgewater, and nobody from either company ever mentioned that 
(that doesn't necessarily mean they can't do it though).

On Jan 20, 2018 11:58 AM, "Mike Hammett" 
mailto:af...@ics-il.net>> wrote:
Adaptive channel sizes?



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
[http://www.ics-il.com/images/fbicon.png][http://www.ics-il.com/images/googleicon.png][http://www.ics-il.com/images/linkedinicon.png][http://www.ics-il.com/images/twittericon.png]
Midwest Internet Exchange
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The Brothers WISP
[http://www.ics-il.com/images/fbicon.png][http://www.ics-il.com/images/youtubeicon.png]




From: "Eric Kuhnke" mailto:eric.kuh...@gmail.com>>
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: Saturday, January 20, 2018 11:48:24 AM

Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Quick comparison between 80GHz and AF24
This is not extremely new in 80 GHz, just with different and denser 
modulations. The Siklu 80 GHz stuff has done adaptive coding and modulation for 
a while. The (now 7 year old!) Bridgewave adaptrate 80 GHz stuff would maintain 
a 100 Mbps link during a rain fade, by switching a nominally QPSK-modulated 
1500 MHz wide channel for 1 Gbps, temporarily down to BPSK during a rain fade 
event.



On Sat, Jan 20, 2018 at 9:45 AM, Stefan Englhardt 
mailto:s...@genias.net>> wrote:
Some vendors do some new things to stretch the range of 80GHz:

http://de.nec.com/de_DE/global/prod/nw/pasolink/products/ipasolinkEX_advanced.html?

They modulate down and then reduce channel size.

This gear is in the 20kEuro Range …



Von: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] Im Auftrag 
von Faisal Imtiaz
Gesendet: Samstag, 20. Januar 2018 17:08
An: af@afmug.com
Betreff: Re: [AFMUG] Quick comparison between 80GHz and AF24

We have two things to contend with...
one is Oxygen Absorption
second is Rain Fade

Science says, 24ghz has much less O2 absorption fade vs 80ghz
Science also says that 24ghz has slightly less Rain fade vs 80ghz

Science also says that if on a particular link, if one is comparing 24ghz vs 
80ghz, the difference in which link drops first will be based on the TX power / 
Antenna Gain and Rx sensitivity.

If all things were exactly the same, then 80ghz would drop before 24ghz in Rain 
event.
But in reality, all things are not the same.. I believe 80ghz one is allowed 
more power, and higher antenna gain.


https://www.e-band.com/index.php?id=86

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/dont-fall-siklu-overbuilds-distance-claims-david-theodore

[AFMUG] New cambium firmware release

[Forrest Christian (List Account)]

I note that cambium officially released 15.1.3 on Friday.

Among other things this seems to fix a bug that some of my customers have
encountered where the radios will lose sync and not recover without a
reboot.   A few of my customers have upgraded radios which were
experiencing this issue on an ongoing basis to one of the Beta versions of
this release, and so far this seems to have solve the issue.   As a result,
If you're seeing this bug, I'd recommend that you try upgrading to 15.1.3


-- 
*Forrest Christian* *CEO**, PacketFlux Technologies, Inc.*
Tel: 406-449-3345 | Address: 3577 Countryside Road, Helena, MT 59602
forre...@imach.com | http://www.packetflux.com
  

Re: [AFMUG] OT tech wiki

[Josh Baird]

I’m not following.  I have full access to the MySQL database for my Confluence 
installation.  It runs on my servers - just like MediaWiki would.

> On Jan 20, 2018, at 12:41 PM, Eric Kuhnke  wrote:
> 
> My objection is not about the cost, which is nominal, but about the principle 
> of going down the path of what can become a business-critical function 
> offloaded to a third party, where you don't have full access to your own 
> database/back-end.
> 
> 
> 
>> On Sat, Jan 20, 2018 at 9:35 AM, Josh Baird  wrote:
>> Confluence is only $10 for 10 users.  That’s my recommendation.
>> 
>>> On Jan 20, 2018, at 12:26 PM, Eric Kuhnke  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Full mediawiki, the same software that runs the backend of wikipedia. If 
>>> you are not a competent Linux sysadmin, you are going to want to get one to 
>>> set it up and maintain it. It's vastly more powerful and extensible than a 
>>> medium sized ISP could ever need. I predict we will see people here 
>>> recommend Confluence and other commercial solutions, but in my opinion all 
>>> proper wiki software for serious use should be composed of 100% BSD, GPL 
>>> and Apache licensed software.
>>> 
 On Sat, Jan 20, 2018 at 9:16 AM,  wrote:
>>> 
 I want it to be in wiki format.  An ongoing knowledge base.  We had one at 
 a former company and it was great.  But I was not the one that installed 
 it so I don’t know what is involved in that. 
  
 From: Steve Jones
 Sent: Saturday, January 20, 2018 10:14 AM
 To: af@afmug.com
 Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT tech wiki
  
 if its not public, i use OneNote
 its not in the wiki format but it logs changes, logs who made changes and 
 allows multiuser access
  
> On Sat, Jan 20, 2018 at 11:06 AM,  wrote:
> What is the most pain free way to create a wiki?
 
  
>>> 
> 

Re: [AFMUG] Quick comparison between 80GHz and AF24

[Mike Hammett]

Trango's initial 24 GHz radio could do that. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: "Mathew Howard"  
To: "af"  
Sent: Saturday, January 20, 2018 12:04:15 PM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Quick comparison between 80GHz and AF24 



This is the first I've heard of adaptive channel sizes... I've been looking at 
both Siklu and Bridgewater, and nobody from either company ever mentioned that 
(that doesn't necessarily mean they can't do it though). 



On Jan 20, 2018 11:58 AM, "Mike Hammett" < af...@ics-il.net > wrote: 




Adaptive channel sizes? 





- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 






From: "Eric Kuhnke" < eric.kuh...@gmail.com > 
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Saturday, January 20, 2018 11:48:24 AM 

Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Quick comparison between 80GHz and AF24 



This is not extremely new in 80 GHz, just with different and denser 
modulations. The Siklu 80 GHz stuff has done adaptive coding and modulation for 
a while. The (now 7 year old!) Bridgewave adaptrate 80 GHz stuff would maintain 
a 100 Mbps link during a rain fade, by switching a nominally QPSK-modulated 
1500 MHz wide channel for 1 Gbps, temporarily down to BPSK during a rain fade 
event. 







On Sat, Jan 20, 2018 at 9:45 AM, Stefan Englhardt < s...@genias.net > wrote: 






Some vendors do some new things to stretch the range of 80GHz: 

http://de.nec.com/de_DE/global/prod/nw/pasolink/products/ipasolinkEX_advanced.html
 ? 

They modulate down and then reduce channel size. 

This gear is in the 20kEuro Range … 








Von: Af [mailto: af-boun...@afmug.com ] Im Auftrag von Faisal Imtiaz 
Gesendet: Samstag, 20. Januar 2018 17:08 
An: af@afmug.com 
Betreff: Re: [AFMUG] Quick comparison between 80GHz and AF24 




We have two things to contend with... 

one is Oxygen Absorption 

second is Rain Fade 



Science says, 24ghz has much less O2 absorption fade vs 80ghz 

Science also says that 24ghz has slightly less Rain fade vs 80ghz 



Science also says that if on a particular link, if one is comparing 24ghz vs 
80ghz, the difference in which link drops first will be based on the TX power / 
Antenna Gain and Rx sensitivity. 



If all things were exactly the same, then 80ghz would drop before 24ghz in Rain 
event. 

But in reality, all things are not the same.. I believe 80ghz one is allowed 
more power, and higher antenna gain. 





https://www.e-band.com/index.php?id=86 



https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/dont-fall-siklu-overbuilds-distance-claims-david-theodore
 





at 3.5miles, one is pushing the limits of both 24gzh as well as 80ghz.. 
Depending on what you are trying to achieve, and the rainzone, you can make 
your choice based on what will perform better normally... cause both of them 
will go out in rain :) 



Best of Luck 



Faisal Imtiaz 
Snappy Internet & Telecom 
http://www.snappytelecom.net 

Tel: 305 663 5518 x 232 

Help-desk: (305)663-5518 Option 2 or Email: supp...@snappytelecom.net 







From: "Mathew Howard" < mhoward...@gmail.com > 
To: "af" < af@afmug.com > 
Sent: Friday, January 19, 2018 8:42:31 PM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Quick comparison between 80GHz and AF24 







I'd guess 24ghz would be slightly better, but either one is going to drop at 
that distance if you ever get heavy rain. 



Somebody from Siklu told me at one time, that some of their customers have told 
then that their rainfade is slightly better than an AF24, but slightly worse 
than an AF24HD... how accurate that is, I don't know. 




On Jan 19, 2018 6:03 PM, "Rory Conaway" < r...@triadwireless.net > wrote: 







I haven’t run the numbers so please save me some time. Which one has less fade 
margin at 3.5 miles? I was going to use Siklu with a 2’ antenna. 

Rory Conaway • Triad Wireless • CEO 
4226 S. 37 th Street • Phoenix • AZ 85040 
602-426-0542 
r...@triadwireless.net 
www.triadwireless.net 

“"Engineers believe that if it ain't broke, it doesn't have enough features 
yet." — Scott Adams 

Re: [AFMUG] OT MoviePass

[Lewis Bergman]

I don't remember bumping into that but I have wondered about it. I don't
normally go every day.

On Sat, Jan 20, 2018, 9:59 AM Darin Steffl  wrote:

> Lewis,
>
> The FAQ says you can go every calendar day. But I had a customer tell me
> that they had to wait 24 hours for the check-in to work again. Have you had
> trouble like that or can you go to a movie yesterday at 9pm and go again
> today at 12pm for example, less than 24 hours between them?
>
> On Sat, Jan 20, 2018 at 9:35 AM, Lewis Bergman 
> wrote:
>
>> I went 3 days ago, yesterday, and again today. I also have been three
>> other times this month. $1.66 per movie. Before long I'll believe that is
>> all a first release movie is worth just like 20 something think interest
>> rates should be zero.
>>
>> On Fri, Jan 19, 2018, 6:38 PM Darin Steffl 
>> wrote:
>>
> Received my moviepass yesterday. Activated today and am at a movie now.
>>> The movie cost $10.82 but I only paid the equivalent of $7.50 per
>>> month. Already getting more than my money's worth. Going to one or two more
>>> movies this weekend probably.
>>>
>>> Love it!
>>>
>>> On Jan 19, 2018 10:12 AM, "CBB - Jay Fuller" 
>>> wrote:
>>>

 the app only lets you pick movies today - - so i am assuming no.
 although if you wanted to go to the movie theatre early and buy the ticket
 for a later showing i assume you could.  then you could give the ticket to
 whomever.

 and you have to pick the movie you want to see on the app - - but since
 you're actually using a credit card to buy the card i doubt the software
 can only unlock a certain movie.  more likely it unlocks a certain price
 amount.

 hmm, that being said, i guess you could buy a ticket for "tomorrow"
 assuming the box office can sell you one for tomorrow.  i'd probably try
 that first to test my theory using your own cash.



>>> - Original Message -
 *From:* Lewis Bergman 
 *To:* af@afmug.com
 *Sent:* Friday, January 19, 2018 9:41 AM
 *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT MoviePass

 I don't think so, but I haven't tried such a  thing. "Invest" $10
 and find out.

 On Fri, Jan 19, 2018 at 8:32 AM Cassidy B. Larson 
 wrote:

 Here’s a random question I had about this.. Can I buy my seat really
> early for a premier, then go by the next day and the next to buy another
> seat as a “buffer” on each side and in front and back.
> Then, could I give some of these tickets to friends and family if I
> wanted to fill in my buffer?
>
>
> On Jan 14, 2018, at 11:31 AM, Darin Steffl 
> wrote:
>
> Chuck,
>
> You sound like us millennials who want everything NOW! Haha ;)
>
> I'm 26 and fine waiting for the card in the mail but I also knew I'd
> have to wait so my expectations were already set. The FAQ spells it out
> pretty clearly.
>
> On Jan 14, 2018 10:37 AM, "Chuck McCown"  wrote:
>
> I know nothing about Fandor... yet.
>> Still bummed out that I have to wait for the card.  I really thought
>> I could sign up, get the app and use it immediately.
>>
> *From:* CBB - Jay Fuller
>>
> *Sent:* Saturday, January 13, 2018 7:24 PM
>>
> *To:* af@afmug.com
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT MoviePass
>>
> Got moviepass for my wife today through the costco website - it came
>> with a streaming service too.  Anyone else see that?
>> Is it any good?  Appeared to be mostly for movies.
>>
>> "FANDOR"
>>
>>
>>
>>
> - Original Message -
>>
>> *From:* Chuck McCown
>> *To:* af@afmug.com
>> *Sent:* Saturday, January 13, 2018 4:06 PM
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT MoviePass
>>
>>
>> Patience sometimes is hard to come by...
>>
>>
>> *From:* Darin Steffl
>> *Sent:* Saturday, January 13, 2018 1:38 PM
>>
>> *To:* af@afmug.com
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT MoviePass
>>
>> Chuck,
>>
>> I activated mine as well but the FAQ states we have to wait for the
>> physical card to arrive before we can activate it and use it. This is
>> unless your theater supports the e-ticket through movie pass which none 
>> of
>> my theaters do.
>>
>> Your billing date starts when you receive and activate the physical
>> card for the first time.
>>
>> Mine shipped a couple days after I redeemed the Costco offer online.
>>
>> On Jan 13, 2018 2:14 PM, "Jaime Solorza" 
>> wrote:
>>
>> Sounds Big Brotherish
>>>
>>> Jaime Solorza
>>>
>> On Jan 13, 2018 1:07 PM, "CBB - Jay Fuller" <
>>> par...@cyberbroadband.net> wrote:
>>>
>>
 That is correct.  Mine came in about a week (after my mom got it
 for me for Christmas).
 I used it for the first time last night - saw the commuter.  The
 card is actually a credit card (mastercard)
 The a

Re: [AFMUG] Quick comparison between 80GHz and AF24

[Mathew Howard]

This is the first I've heard of adaptive channel sizes... I've been looking
at both Siklu and Bridgewater, and nobody from either company ever
mentioned that (that doesn't necessarily mean they can't do it though).

On Jan 20, 2018 11:58 AM, "Mike Hammett"  wrote:

Adaptive channel sizes?




-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions 




Midwest Internet Exchange 



The Brothers WISP 




--
*From: *"Eric Kuhnke" 
*To: *af@afmug.com
*Sent: *Saturday, January 20, 2018 11:48:24 AM

*Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Quick comparison between 80GHz and AF24

This is not extremely new in 80 GHz, just with different and denser
modulations. The Siklu 80 GHz stuff has done adaptive coding and modulation
for a while. The (now 7 year old!) Bridgewave adaptrate 80 GHz stuff would
maintain a 100 Mbps link during a rain fade, by switching a nominally
QPSK-modulated 1500 MHz wide channel for 1 Gbps, temporarily down to BPSK
during a rain fade event.



On Sat, Jan 20, 2018 at 9:45 AM, Stefan Englhardt  wrote:

> Some vendors do some new things to stretch the range of 80GHz:
>
>
>
> http://de.nec.com/de_DE/global/prod/nw/pasolink/
> products/ipasolinkEX_advanced.html?
>
>
>
> They modulate down and then reduce channel size.
>
>
>
> This gear is in the 20kEuro Range …
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *Von:* Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *Im Auftrag von *Faisal Imtiaz
> *Gesendet:* Samstag, 20. Januar 2018 17:08
> *An:* af@afmug.com
> *Betreff:* Re: [AFMUG] Quick comparison between 80GHz and AF24
>
>
>
> We have two things to contend with...
>
> one is Oxygen Absorption
>
> second is Rain Fade
>
>
>
> Science says, 24ghz has much less O2 absorption fade vs 80ghz
>
> Science also says that 24ghz has slightly less Rain fade vs 80ghz
>
>
>
> Science also says that if on a particular link, if one is comparing 24ghz
> vs 80ghz, the difference in which link drops first will be based on the TX
> power / Antenna Gain and Rx sensitivity.
>
>
>
> If all things were exactly the same, then 80ghz would drop before 24ghz in
> Rain event.
>
> But in reality, all things are not the same.. I believe 80ghz one is
> allowed more power, and higher antenna gain.
>
>
>
>
>
> https://www.e-band.com/index.php?id=86
>
>
>
> https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/dont-fall-siklu-overbuilds-distance-claims-
> david-theodore
>
>
>
>
>
> at 3.5miles, one is pushing the limits of both 24gzh as well as 80ghz..
> Depending on what you are trying to achieve, and the rainzone, you can make
> your choice based on what will perform better normally... cause both of
> them will go out in rain :)
>
>
>
> Best of Luck
>
>
>
> Faisal Imtiaz
> Snappy Internet & Telecom
> http://www.snappytelecom.net
>
> Tel: 305 663 5518 x 232 <(305)%20663-5518>
>
> Help-desk: (305)663-5518 <(305)%20663-5518> Option 2 or Email:
> supp...@snappytelecom.net
>
>
> --
>
> *From: *"Mathew Howard" 
> *To: *"af" 
> *Sent: *Friday, January 19, 2018 8:42:31 PM
> *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Quick comparison between 80GHz and AF24
>
> I'd guess 24ghz would be slightly better, but either one is going to drop
> at that distance if you ever get heavy rain.
>
>
>
> Somebody from Siklu told me at one time, that some of their customers have
> told then that their rainfade is slightly better than an AF24, but slightly
> worse than an AF24HD... how accurate that is, I don't know.
>
>
>
> On Jan 19, 2018 6:03 PM, "Rory Conaway"  wrote:
>
> I haven’t run the numbers so please save me some time.  Which one has less
> fade margin at 3.5 miles?  I was going to use Siklu with a 2’ antenna.
>
>
>
> *Rory Conaway **• Triad Wireless •** CEO*
>
> *4226 S. 37 th
> Street • Phoenix • AZ 85040*
>
> *602-426-0542 <(602)%20426-0542>*
>
> *r...@triadwireless.net *
>
> *www.triadwireless.net *
>
>
>
> “"Engineers believe that if it ain't broke, it doesn't have enough
> features yet."— Scott Adams
>
>
>
>
>
>

Re: [AFMUG] Quick comparison between 80GHz and AF24

[Eric Kuhnke]

Both adaptive channel sizes *and* adaptive modulation. Drop from 1250 MHz
to 500 or 250 MHz, and drop from 32QAM all the way to BPSK if needed.



On Sat, Jan 20, 2018 at 9:57 AM, Mike Hammett  wrote:

> Adaptive channel sizes?
>
>
>
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Midwest Internet Exchange 
> 
> 
> 
> The Brothers WISP 
> 
>
>
> 
> --
> *From: *"Eric Kuhnke" 
> *To: *af@afmug.com
> *Sent: *Saturday, January 20, 2018 11:48:24 AM
> *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Quick comparison between 80GHz and AF24
>
> This is not extremely new in 80 GHz, just with different and denser
> modulations. The Siklu 80 GHz stuff has done adaptive coding and modulation
> for a while. The (now 7 year old!) Bridgewave adaptrate 80 GHz stuff would
> maintain a 100 Mbps link during a rain fade, by switching a nominally
> QPSK-modulated 1500 MHz wide channel for 1 Gbps, temporarily down to BPSK
> during a rain fade event.
>
>
>
> On Sat, Jan 20, 2018 at 9:45 AM, Stefan Englhardt  wrote:
>
>> Some vendors do some new things to stretch the range of 80GHz:
>>
>>
>>
>> http://de.nec.com/de_DE/global/prod/nw/pasolink/
>> products/ipasolinkEX_advanced.html?
>>
>>
>>
>> They modulate down and then reduce channel size.
>>
>>
>>
>> This gear is in the 20kEuro Range …
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *Von:* Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *Im Auftrag von *Faisal Imtiaz
>> *Gesendet:* Samstag, 20. Januar 2018 17:08
>> *An:* af@afmug.com
>> *Betreff:* Re: [AFMUG] Quick comparison between 80GHz and AF24
>>
>>
>>
>> We have two things to contend with...
>>
>> one is Oxygen Absorption
>>
>> second is Rain Fade
>>
>>
>>
>> Science says, 24ghz has much less O2 absorption fade vs 80ghz
>>
>> Science also says that 24ghz has slightly less Rain fade vs 80ghz
>>
>>
>>
>> Science also says that if on a particular link, if one is comparing 24ghz
>> vs 80ghz, the difference in which link drops first will be based on the TX
>> power / Antenna Gain and Rx sensitivity.
>>
>>
>>
>> If all things were exactly the same, then 80ghz would drop before 24ghz
>> in Rain event.
>>
>> But in reality, all things are not the same.. I believe 80ghz one is
>> allowed more power, and higher antenna gain.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> https://www.e-band.com/index.php?id=86
>>
>>
>>
>> https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/dont-fall-siklu-
>> overbuilds-distance-claims-david-theodore
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> at 3.5miles, one is pushing the limits of both 24gzh as well as 80ghz..
>> Depending on what you are trying to achieve, and the rainzone, you can make
>> your choice based on what will perform better normally... cause both of
>> them will go out in rain :)
>>
>>
>>
>> Best of Luck
>>
>>
>>
>> Faisal Imtiaz
>> Snappy Internet & Telecom
>> http://www.snappytelecom.net
>>
>> Tel: 305 663 5518 x 232 <(305)%20663-5518>
>>
>> Help-desk: (305)663-5518 <(305)%20663-5518> Option 2 or Email:
>> supp...@snappytelecom.net
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> *From: *"Mathew Howard" 
>> *To: *"af" 
>> *Sent: *Friday, January 19, 2018 8:42:31 PM
>> *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Quick comparison between 80GHz and AF24
>>
>> I'd guess 24ghz would be slightly better, but either one is going to drop
>> at that distance if you ever get heavy rain.
>>
>>
>>
>> Somebody from Siklu told me at one time, that some of their customers
>> have told then that their rainfade is slightly better than an AF24, but
>> slightly worse than an AF24HD... how accurate that is, I don't know.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Jan 19, 2018 6:03 PM, "Rory Conaway"  wrote:
>>
>> I haven’t run the numbers so please save me some time.  Which one has
>> less fade margin at 3.5 miles?  I was going to use Siklu with a 2’ antenna.
>>
>>
>>
>> *Rory Conaway **• Triad Wireless •** CEO*
>>
>> *4226 S. 37
>> th Street •
>> Phoenix • AZ 85040*
>>
>> *602-426-0542 <(602)%20426-0542>*
>>
>> *r...@triadwireless.net *
>>
>> *www.triadwireless.net *
>>
>>
>>
>> “"Engineers believe that if it ain't broke, it doesn't have enough
>> features yet."— Scott Adams
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>

Re: [AFMUG] Quick comparison between 80GHz and AF24

[Mike Hammett]

Adaptive channel sizes? 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: "Eric Kuhnke"  
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Saturday, January 20, 2018 11:48:24 AM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Quick comparison between 80GHz and AF24 



This is not extremely new in 80 GHz, just with different and denser 
modulations. The Siklu 80 GHz stuff has done adaptive coding and modulation for 
a while. The (now 7 year old!) Bridgewave adaptrate 80 GHz stuff would maintain 
a 100 Mbps link during a rain fade, by switching a nominally QPSK-modulated 
1500 MHz wide channel for 1 Gbps, temporarily down to BPSK during a rain fade 
event. 






On Sat, Jan 20, 2018 at 9:45 AM, Stefan Englhardt < s...@genias.net > wrote: 





Some vendors do some new things to stretch the range of 80GHz: 

http://de.nec.com/de_DE/global/prod/nw/pasolink/products/ipasolinkEX_advanced.html
 ? 

They modulate down and then reduce channel size. 

This gear is in the 20kEuro Range … 







Von: Af [mailto: af-boun...@afmug.com ] Im Auftrag von Faisal Imtiaz 
Gesendet: Samstag, 20. Januar 2018 17:08 
An: af@afmug.com 
Betreff: Re: [AFMUG] Quick comparison between 80GHz and AF24 



We have two things to contend with... 

one is Oxygen Absorption 

second is Rain Fade 



Science says, 24ghz has much less O2 absorption fade vs 80ghz 

Science also says that 24ghz has slightly less Rain fade vs 80ghz 



Science also says that if on a particular link, if one is comparing 24ghz vs 
80ghz, the difference in which link drops first will be based on the TX power / 
Antenna Gain and Rx sensitivity. 



If all things were exactly the same, then 80ghz would drop before 24ghz in Rain 
event. 

But in reality, all things are not the same.. I believe 80ghz one is allowed 
more power, and higher antenna gain. 





https://www.e-band.com/index.php?id=86 



https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/dont-fall-siklu-overbuilds-distance-claims-david-theodore
 





at 3.5miles, one is pushing the limits of both 24gzh as well as 80ghz.. 
Depending on what you are trying to achieve, and the rainzone, you can make 
your choice based on what will perform better normally... cause both of them 
will go out in rain :) 



Best of Luck 



Faisal Imtiaz 
Snappy Internet & Telecom 
http://www.snappytelecom.net 

Tel: 305 663 5518 x 232 

Help-desk: (305)663-5518 Option 2 or Email: supp...@snappytelecom.net 







From: "Mathew Howard" < mhoward...@gmail.com > 
To: "af" < af@afmug.com > 
Sent: Friday, January 19, 2018 8:42:31 PM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Quick comparison between 80GHz and AF24 






I'd guess 24ghz would be slightly better, but either one is going to drop at 
that distance if you ever get heavy rain. 



Somebody from Siklu told me at one time, that some of their customers have told 
then that their rainfade is slightly better than an AF24, but slightly worse 
than an AF24HD... how accurate that is, I don't know. 



On Jan 19, 2018 6:03 PM, "Rory Conaway" < r...@triadwireless.net > wrote: 






I haven’t run the numbers so please save me some time. Which one has less fade 
margin at 3.5 miles? I was going to use Siklu with a 2’ antenna. 

Rory Conaway • Triad Wireless • CEO 
4226 S. 37 th Street • Phoenix • AZ 85040 
602-426-0542 
r...@triadwireless.net 
www.triadwireless.net 

“"Engineers believe that if it ain't broke, it doesn't have enough features 
yet." — Scott Adams 

Re: [AFMUG] OT tech wiki

[Steve Jones]

OneNote is perfect for that, not really a "database" but neither is a wiki
We have a troubleshooting section for repeated issues
I use it for pbx programming tasks for customers who are taking over
management of certain things
Try out one note 2013 if you can lay hands on that version. poke around at
it
mine arent as organized as they should be, its like any binder, you fill it
with notes, intending on tidying them up at some point, but you just end up
with piles of binders

On Sat, Jan 20, 2018 at 11:35 AM,  wrote:

> I know nothing about OneNote, so speaking from a position of total
> ignorance here, I don’t care about creating a log or history of problems
> with particular customers, our billing software does that very well.
>
> I want to have a quickly searchable database.  For example, this morning I
> have a customer that is having a problem of callers to his house receiving
> an all circuits busy or re-order tone.  I want to be able to search on
> things like: wireshark SIP filter settings, SIP messages for inbound
> calls.  Things unique to our particular company.  Shared notes that are
> searchable for all.  ONT configs, router upgrade notes, info, configs,
> methods etc etc.
>
> I would start with our ServerPlus decision tree and add to it with hints
> and tips as to how to fix each problem etc.
>
> *From:* Steve Jones
> *Sent:* Saturday, January 20, 2018 10:21 AM
> *To:* af@afmug.com
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT tech wiki
>
> OneNote is WAY better for that. thats where I maintain all our
> documentation. try it out, not the App, the actual program. ive stayed with
> 2013 because it flows better. It like a digital binder, less restrictive
> than any wiki i ever met. drag and drop stuff. i embed alot of excel files,
> they view-able directly and then editable outside the page but save right
> back. its sexy for ip space management. the only drawback is you can only
> go like 4 sub pages deep per section. i do job orders for contractors in it
> and export them as pdf, sexy, all sexy
>
> On Sat, Jan 20, 2018 at 11:16 AM,  wrote:
>
>> I want it to be in wiki format.  An ongoing knowledge base.  We had one
>> at a former company and it was great.  But I was not the one that installed
>> it so I don’t know what is involved in that.
>>
>> *From:* Steve Jones
>> *Sent:* Saturday, January 20, 2018 10:14 AM
>> *To:* af@afmug.com
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT tech wiki
>>
>> if its not public, i use OneNote
>> its not in the wiki format but it logs changes, logs who made changes and
>> allows multiuser access
>>
>> On Sat, Jan 20, 2018 at 11:06 AM,  wrote:
>>
>>> What is the most pain free way to create a wiki?
>>>
>>
>>
>
>

Re: [AFMUG] Quick comparison between 80GHz and AF24

[Eric Kuhnke]

Not 100% sure but there are some 80 GHz radios that can use channels as
narrow as 250 MHz, which could be a further step down to keep a link up
during extreme rain fade events. But in my opinion it's a bit reckless to
build a link that will need to do that. ISPs will have much better results
with 80 GHz radios if they can treat them as pseudo-fiber-patch-cables, and
not worry about "oh it's a bit heavier than average rain today, the 2500
Mbps link is really 700 Mbps right now".

On Sat, Jan 20, 2018 at 9:52 AM, Stefan Englhardt  wrote:

> They additional go down from a 2000MHz Channel to a 500MHz Channel to
> concentrate power.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *Von:* Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *Im Auftrag von *Eric Kuhnke
> *Gesendet:* Samstag, 20. Januar 2018 18:48
> *An:* af@afmug.com
> *Betreff:* Re: [AFMUG] Quick comparison between 80GHz and AF24
>
>
>
> This is not extremely new in 80 GHz, just with different and denser
> modulations. The Siklu 80 GHz stuff has done adaptive coding and modulation
> for a while. The (now 7 year old!) Bridgewave adaptrate 80 GHz stuff would
> maintain a 100 Mbps link during a rain fade, by switching a nominally
> QPSK-modulated 1500 MHz wide channel for 1 Gbps, temporarily down to BPSK
> during a rain fade event.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, Jan 20, 2018 at 9:45 AM, Stefan Englhardt  wrote:
>
> Some vendors do some new things to stretch the range of 80GHz:
>
>
>
> http://de.nec.com/de_DE/global/prod/nw/pasolink/
> products/ipasolinkEX_advanced.html?
>
>
>
> They modulate down and then reduce channel size.
>
>
>
> This gear is in the 20kEuro Range …
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *Von:* Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *Im Auftrag von *Faisal Imtiaz
> *Gesendet:* Samstag, 20. Januar 2018 17:08
> *An:* af@afmug.com
> *Betreff:* Re: [AFMUG] Quick comparison between 80GHz and AF24
>
>
>
> We have two things to contend with...
>
> one is Oxygen Absorption
>
> second is Rain Fade
>
>
>
> Science says, 24ghz has much less O2 absorption fade vs 80ghz
>
> Science also says that 24ghz has slightly less Rain fade vs 80ghz
>
>
>
> Science also says that if on a particular link, if one is comparing 24ghz
> vs 80ghz, the difference in which link drops first will be based on the TX
> power / Antenna Gain and Rx sensitivity.
>
>
>
> If all things were exactly the same, then 80ghz would drop before 24ghz in
> Rain event.
>
> But in reality, all things are not the same.. I believe 80ghz one is
> allowed more power, and higher antenna gain.
>
>
>
>
>
> https://www.e-band.com/index.php?id=86
>
>
>
> https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/dont-fall-siklu-overbuilds-distance-claims-
> david-theodore
>
>
>
>
>
> at 3.5miles, one is pushing the limits of both 24gzh as well as 80ghz..
> Depending on what you are trying to achieve, and the rainzone, you can make
> your choice based on what will perform better normally... cause both of
> them will go out in rain :)
>
>
>
> Best of Luck
>
>
>
> Faisal Imtiaz
> Snappy Internet & Telecom
> http://www.snappytelecom.net
>
> Tel: 305 663 5518 x 232 <(305)%20663-5518>
>
> Help-desk: (305)663-5518 <(305)%20663-5518> Option 2 or Email:
> supp...@snappytelecom.net
>
>
> --
>
> *From: *"Mathew Howard" 
> *To: *"af" 
> *Sent: *Friday, January 19, 2018 8:42:31 PM
> *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Quick comparison between 80GHz and AF24
>
> I'd guess 24ghz would be slightly better, but either one is going to drop
> at that distance if you ever get heavy rain.
>
>
>
> Somebody from Siklu told me at one time, that some of their customers have
> told then that their rainfade is slightly better than an AF24, but slightly
> worse than an AF24HD... how accurate that is, I don't know.
>
>
>
> On Jan 19, 2018 6:03 PM, "Rory Conaway"  wrote:
>
> I haven’t run the numbers so please save me some time.  Which one has less
> fade margin at 3.5 miles?  I was going to use Siklu with a 2’ antenna.
>
>
>
> *Rory Conaway **• Triad Wireless •** CEO*
>
> *4226 S. 37 th
> Street • Phoenix • AZ 85040*
>
> *602-426-0542 <(602)%20426-0542>*
>
> *r...@triadwireless.net *
>
> *www.triadwireless.net *
>
>
>
> “"Engineers believe that if it ain't broke, it doesn't have enough
> features yet."— Scott Adams
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Re: [AFMUG] OT SSL Certs

[Eric Kuhnke]

If you have a customer facing credit card portal it is worth the $85/year
that an EV SSL cert costs, in my opinion, for the GUI change with the big
friendly green banner in most browsers.

For anything else, no, use letsencrypt.


EV SSL used to cost $350-400/year, is is a lot less costly now.



On Sat, Jan 20, 2018 at 8:34 AM,  wrote:

> My GoDaddy SSL is coming up for renewal.  Is there any reason to continue
> to pay for SSL certs since you can get them for free and  you can even make
> your own?
>

Re: [AFMUG] Quick comparison between 80GHz and AF24

[Stefan Englhardt]

They additional go down from a 2000MHz Channel to a 500MHz Channel to 
concentrate power.

 

 

 

Von: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] Im Auftrag von Eric Kuhnke
Gesendet: Samstag, 20. Januar 2018 18:48
An: af@afmug.com
Betreff: Re: [AFMUG] Quick comparison between 80GHz and AF24

 

This is not extremely new in 80 GHz, just with different and denser 
modulations. The Siklu 80 GHz stuff has done adaptive coding and modulation for 
a while. The (now 7 year old!) Bridgewave adaptrate 80 GHz stuff would maintain 
a 100 Mbps link during a rain fade, by switching a nominally QPSK-modulated 
1500 MHz wide channel for 1 Gbps, temporarily down to BPSK during a rain fade 
event. 

 

 

 

On Sat, Jan 20, 2018 at 9:45 AM, Stefan Englhardt mailto:s...@genias.net> > wrote:

Some vendors do some new things to stretch the range of 80GHz:

 

http://de.nec.com/de_DE/global/prod/nw/pasolink/products/ipasolinkEX_advanced.html?

 

They modulate down and then reduce channel size.

 

This gear is in the 20kEuro Range …

 

 

 

Von: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com  ] Im Auftrag 
von Faisal Imtiaz
Gesendet: Samstag, 20. Januar 2018 17:08
An: af@afmug.com  
Betreff: Re: [AFMUG] Quick comparison between 80GHz and AF24

 

We have two things to contend with... 

one is Oxygen Absorption

second is Rain Fade

 

Science says, 24ghz has much less O2 absorption fade vs 80ghz

Science also says that 24ghz has slightly less Rain fade vs 80ghz

 

Science also says that if on a particular link, if one is comparing 24ghz vs 
80ghz, the difference in which link drops first will be based on the TX power / 
Antenna Gain and Rx sensitivity.

 

If all things were exactly the same, then 80ghz would drop before 24ghz in Rain 
event.

But in reality, all things are not the same.. I believe 80ghz one is allowed 
more power, and higher antenna gain.

 

 

https://www.e-band.com/index.php?id=86

 

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/dont-fall-siklu-overbuilds-distance-claims-david-theodore

 

 

at 3.5miles, one is pushing the limits of both 24gzh as well as 80ghz.. 
Depending on what you are trying to achieve, and the rainzone, you can make 
your choice based on what will perform better normally... cause both of them 
will go out in rain :)

 

Best of Luck

 

Faisal Imtiaz
Snappy Internet & Telecom
http://www.snappytelecom.net

Tel: 305 663 5518 x 232  

Help-desk: (305)663-5518   Option 2 or Email: 
supp...@snappytelecom.net  

 


  _  


From: "Mathew Howard" mailto:mhoward...@gmail.com> >
To: "af" mailto:af@afmug.com> >
Sent: Friday, January 19, 2018 8:42:31 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Quick comparison between 80GHz and AF24

I'd guess 24ghz would be slightly better, but either one is going to drop at 
that distance if you ever get heavy rain.

 

Somebody from Siklu told me at one time, that some of their customers have told 
then that their rainfade is slightly better than an AF24, but slightly worse 
than an AF24HD... how accurate that is, I don't know. 

 

On Jan 19, 2018 6:03 PM, "Rory Conaway" mailto:r...@triadwireless.net> > wrote:

I haven’t run the numbers so please save me some time.  Which one has less fade 
margin at 3.5 miles?  I was going to use Siklu with a 2’ antenna.

 

Rory Conaway • Triad Wireless • CEO

4226 S. 37  th 
Street • Phoenix • AZ 85040

602-426-0542  

r...@triadwireless.net  

www.triadwireless.net  

 

“"Engineers believe that if it ain't broke, it doesn't have enough features 
yet."— Scott Adams 

 

 

 

Re: [AFMUG] OT tech wiki

[Eric Kuhnke]

I can't say who, but one of the largest last-mile ISPs on the entire west
coast (WA/OR/CA) uses mediawiki for nearly 100% of their internal
documentation. Organized per POP.



On Sat, Jan 20, 2018 at 9:44 AM,  wrote:

> Yeah, I think mediawiki is the way to go.  I started down that path once
> but not being well versed in Linux I stopped.  We can get that
> implemented.
> I just hate losing corporate/institutional memory every time a tech
> decides to go to college or go to work for Google/Ebay/Adobe... (we ain’t
> called Silicon Slopes for nuthing)
>
> *From:* Eric Kuhnke
> *Sent:* Saturday, January 20, 2018 10:41 AM
> *To:* af@afmug.com
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT tech wiki
>
> My objection is not about the cost, which is nominal, but about the
> principle of going down the path of what can become a business-critical
> function offloaded to a third party, where you don't have full access to
> your own database/back-end.
>
>
>
> On Sat, Jan 20, 2018 at 9:35 AM, Josh Baird  wrote:
>
>> Confluence is only $10 for 10 users.  That’s my recommendation.
>>
>> On Jan 20, 2018, at 12:26 PM, Eric Kuhnke  wrote:
>>
>> Full mediawiki, the same software that runs the backend of wikipedia. If
>> you are not a competent Linux sysadmin, you are going to want to get one to
>> set it up and maintain it. It's vastly more powerful and extensible than a
>> medium sized ISP could ever need. I predict we will see people here
>> recommend Confluence and other commercial solutions, but in my opinion all
>> proper wiki software for serious use should be composed of 100% BSD, GPL
>> and Apache licensed software.
>>
>> On Sat, Jan 20, 2018 at 9:16 AM,  wrote:
>>
>>> I want it to be in wiki format.  An ongoing knowledge base.  We had one
>>> at a former company and it was great.  But I was not the one that installed
>>> it so I don’t know what is involved in that.
>>>
>>> *From:* Steve Jones
>>> *Sent:* Saturday, January 20, 2018 10:14 AM
>>> *To:* af@afmug.com
>>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT tech wiki
>>>
>>> if its not public, i use OneNote
>>> its not in the wiki format but it logs changes, logs who made changes
>>> and allows multiuser access
>>>
>>> On Sat, Jan 20, 2018 at 11:06 AM,  wrote:
>>>
 What is the most pain free way to create a wiki?

>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>

Re: [AFMUG] Quick comparison between 80GHz and AF24

[Eric Kuhnke]

This is not extremely new in 80 GHz, just with different and denser
modulations. The Siklu 80 GHz stuff has done adaptive coding and modulation
for a while. The (now 7 year old!) Bridgewave adaptrate 80 GHz stuff would
maintain a 100 Mbps link during a rain fade, by switching a nominally
QPSK-modulated 1500 MHz wide channel for 1 Gbps, temporarily down to BPSK
during a rain fade event.



On Sat, Jan 20, 2018 at 9:45 AM, Stefan Englhardt  wrote:

> Some vendors do some new things to stretch the range of 80GHz:
>
>
>
> http://de.nec.com/de_DE/global/prod/nw/pasolink/
> products/ipasolinkEX_advanced.html?
>
>
>
> They modulate down and then reduce channel size.
>
>
>
> This gear is in the 20kEuro Range …
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *Von:* Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *Im Auftrag von *Faisal Imtiaz
> *Gesendet:* Samstag, 20. Januar 2018 17:08
> *An:* af@afmug.com
> *Betreff:* Re: [AFMUG] Quick comparison between 80GHz and AF24
>
>
>
> We have two things to contend with...
>
> one is Oxygen Absorption
>
> second is Rain Fade
>
>
>
> Science says, 24ghz has much less O2 absorption fade vs 80ghz
>
> Science also says that 24ghz has slightly less Rain fade vs 80ghz
>
>
>
> Science also says that if on a particular link, if one is comparing 24ghz
> vs 80ghz, the difference in which link drops first will be based on the TX
> power / Antenna Gain and Rx sensitivity.
>
>
>
> If all things were exactly the same, then 80ghz would drop before 24ghz in
> Rain event.
>
> But in reality, all things are not the same.. I believe 80ghz one is
> allowed more power, and higher antenna gain.
>
>
>
>
>
> https://www.e-band.com/index.php?id=86
>
>
>
> https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/dont-fall-siklu-overbuilds-distance-claims-
> david-theodore
>
>
>
>
>
> at 3.5miles, one is pushing the limits of both 24gzh as well as 80ghz..
> Depending on what you are trying to achieve, and the rainzone, you can make
> your choice based on what will perform better normally... cause both of
> them will go out in rain :)
>
>
>
> Best of Luck
>
>
>
> Faisal Imtiaz
> Snappy Internet & Telecom
> http://www.snappytelecom.net
>
> Tel: 305 663 5518 x 232 <(305)%20663-5518>
>
> Help-desk: (305)663-5518 <(305)%20663-5518> Option 2 or Email:
> supp...@snappytelecom.net
>
>
> --
>
> *From: *"Mathew Howard" 
> *To: *"af" 
> *Sent: *Friday, January 19, 2018 8:42:31 PM
> *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Quick comparison between 80GHz and AF24
>
> I'd guess 24ghz would be slightly better, but either one is going to drop
> at that distance if you ever get heavy rain.
>
>
>
> Somebody from Siklu told me at one time, that some of their customers have
> told then that their rainfade is slightly better than an AF24, but slightly
> worse than an AF24HD... how accurate that is, I don't know.
>
>
>
> On Jan 19, 2018 6:03 PM, "Rory Conaway"  wrote:
>
> I haven’t run the numbers so please save me some time.  Which one has less
> fade margin at 3.5 miles?  I was going to use Siklu with a 2’ antenna.
>
>
>
> *Rory Conaway **• Triad Wireless •** CEO*
>
> *4226 S. 37 th
> Street • Phoenix • AZ 85040*
>
> *602-426-0542 <(602)%20426-0542>*
>
> *r...@triadwireless.net *
>
> *www.triadwireless.net *
>
>
>
> “"Engineers believe that if it ain't broke, it doesn't have enough
> features yet."— Scott Adams
>
>
>
>
>
>

Re: [AFMUG] Quick comparison between 80GHz and AF24

[Eric Kuhnke]

I don't know what you mean by 80 GHz and "AP", the gear is for PTP use
only...  And is usable way beyond 500 feet. I've put into service 2.5 km
roof to roof links in Seattle that carry some fairly critical backbone
traffic, and they are solid.



On Sat, Jan 20, 2018 at 8:47 AM,  wrote:

> I can understand an 80 GHz AP that covers perhaps a 500 foot radius.  Or
> ptp.  But it seems of limited utility to me.
>
> *From:* Mathew Howard
> *Sent:* Saturday, January 20, 2018 9:42 AM
> *To:* af
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Quick comparison between 80GHz and AF24
>
> I'm kind of curious why one wouldn't just go with 11ghz or 18ghz on this
> link? The only reason that I'd consider using 80ghz on a link like that
> would be if I needed lots of capacity... but if an AF24 is an option, I'm
> assuming it doesn't need to be all that high of capacity, and if 80ghz is
> an option, cost also isn't that big of a factor. Unless it's a case where
> you can't wait for licensing, or there aren't 11ghz channels available, why
> not just go licensed?
>
> On Sat, Jan 20, 2018 at 10:07 AM, Faisal Imtiaz 
> wrote:
>
>> We have two things to contend with...
>> one is Oxygen Absorption
>> second is Rain Fade
>>
>> Science says, 24ghz has much less O2 absorption fade vs 80ghz
>> Science also says that 24ghz has slightly less Rain fade vs 80ghz
>>
>> Science also says that if on a particular link, if one is comparing 24ghz
>> vs 80ghz, the difference in which link drops first will be based on the TX
>> power / Antenna Gain and Rx sensitivity.
>>
>> If all things were exactly the same, then 80ghz would drop before 24ghz
>> in Rain event.
>> But in reality, all things are not the same.. I believe 80ghz one is
>> allowed more power, and higher antenna gain.
>>
>>
>> https://www.e-band.com/index.php?id=86
>>
>> https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/dont-fall-siklu-overbuilds-
>> distance-claims-david-theodore
>>
>>
>> at 3.5miles, one is pushing the limits of both 24gzh as well as 80ghz..
>> Depending on what you are trying to achieve, and the rainzone, you can make
>> your choice based on what will perform better normally... cause both of
>> them will go out in rain :)
>>
>> Best of Luck
>>
>> Faisal Imtiaz
>> Snappy Internet & Telecom
>> http://www.snappytelecom.net
>>
>> Tel: 305 663 5518 x 232 <(305)%20663-5518>
>>
>> Help-desk: (305)663-5518 <(305)%20663-5518> Option 2 or Email:
>> supp...@snappytelecom.net
>>
>> --
>>
>> *From: *"Mathew Howard" 
>> *To: *"af" 
>> *Sent: *Friday, January 19, 2018 8:42:31 PM
>> *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Quick comparison between 80GHz and AF24
>>
>> I'd guess 24ghz would be slightly better, but either one is going to drop
>> at that distance if you ever get heavy rain.
>>
>> Somebody from Siklu told me at one time, that some of their customers
>> have told then that their rainfade is slightly better than an AF24, but
>> slightly worse than an AF24HD... how accurate that is, I don't know.
>>
>> On Jan 19, 2018 6:03 PM, "Rory Conaway"  wrote:
>>
>>> I haven’t run the numbers so please save me some time.  Which one has
>>> less fade margin at 3.5 miles?  I was going to use Siklu with a 2’ antenna.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *Rory Conaway **• Triad Wireless •** CEO*
>>>
>>> *4226 S. 37
>>> th Street •
>>> Phoenix • AZ 85040*
>>>
>>> *602-426-0542 <(602)%20426-0542>*
>>>
>>> *r...@triadwireless.net*
>>>
>>> *www.triadwireless.net *
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> “"Engineers believe that if it ain't broke, it doesn't have enough
>>> features yet."— Scott Adams
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>

Re: [AFMUG] Quick comparison between 80GHz and AF24

[Stefan Englhardt]

Some vendors do some new things to stretch the range of 80GHz:

 

 

 
http://de.nec.com/de_DE/global/prod/nw/pasolink/products/ipasolinkEX_advanced.html?

 

They modulate down and then reduce channel size.

 

This gear is in the 20kEuro Range …

 

 

 

Von: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] Im Auftrag von Faisal Imtiaz
Gesendet: Samstag, 20. Januar 2018 17:08
An: af@afmug.com
Betreff: Re: [AFMUG] Quick comparison between 80GHz and AF24

 

We have two things to contend with... 

one is Oxygen Absorption

second is Rain Fade

 

Science says, 24ghz has much less O2 absorption fade vs 80ghz

Science also says that 24ghz has slightly less Rain fade vs 80ghz

 

Science also says that if on a particular link, if one is comparing 24ghz vs 
80ghz, the difference in which link drops first will be based on the TX power / 
Antenna Gain and Rx sensitivity.

 

If all things were exactly the same, then 80ghz would drop before 24ghz in Rain 
event.

But in reality, all things are not the same.. I believe 80ghz one is allowed 
more power, and higher antenna gain.

 

 

https://www.e-band.com/index.php?id=86

 

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/dont-fall-siklu-overbuilds-distance-claims-david-theodore

 

 

at 3.5miles, one is pushing the limits of both 24gzh as well as 80ghz.. 
Depending on what you are trying to achieve, and the rainzone, you can make 
your choice based on what will perform better normally... cause both of them 
will go out in rain :)

 

Best of Luck

 

Faisal Imtiaz
Snappy Internet & Telecom
http://www.snappytelecom.net

Tel: 305 663 5518 x 232

Help-desk: (305)663-5518 Option 2 or Email: supp...@snappytelecom.net 
 

 

  _  

From: "Mathew Howard" mailto:mhoward...@gmail.com> >
To: "af" mailto:af@afmug.com> >
Sent: Friday, January 19, 2018 8:42:31 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Quick comparison between 80GHz and AF24

I'd guess 24ghz would be slightly better, but either one is going to drop at 
that distance if you ever get heavy rain.

 

Somebody from Siklu told me at one time, that some of their customers have told 
then that their rainfade is slightly better than an AF24, but slightly worse 
than an AF24HD... how accurate that is, I don't know. 

 

On Jan 19, 2018 6:03 PM, "Rory Conaway" mailto:r...@triadwireless.net> > wrote:



I haven’t run the numbers so please save me some time.  Which one has less fade 
margin at 3.5 miles?  I was going to use Siklu with a 2’ antenna.

 

Rory Conaway • Triad Wireless • CEO

4226 S. 37  th 
Street • Phoenix • AZ 85040

602-426-0542  

r...@triadwireless.net  

www.triadwireless.net  

 

“"Engineers believe that if it ain't broke, it doesn't have enough features 
yet."— Scott Adams 

 

 

Re: [AFMUG] OT tech wiki

[Seth Mattinen]

On 1/20/18 9:26 AM, Eric Kuhnke wrote:
Full mediawiki, the same software that runs the backend of wikipedia. If 
you are not a competent Linux sysadmin, you are going to want to get one 
to set it up and maintain it. It's vastly more powerful and extensible 
than a medium sized ISP could ever need. I predict we will see people 
here recommend Confluence and other commercial solutions, but in my 
opinion all proper wiki software for serious use should be composed of 
100% BSD, GPL and Apache licensed software.



I use mediawiki internally as well.

~Seth

Re: [AFMUG] OT tech wiki

[chuck]

Yeah, I think mediawiki is the way to go.  I started down that path once but 
not being well versed in Linux I stopped.  We can get that implemented.  
I just hate losing corporate/institutional memory every time a tech decides to 
go to college or go to work for Google/Ebay/Adobe... (we ain’t called Silicon 
Slopes for nuthing)

From: Eric Kuhnke 
Sent: Saturday, January 20, 2018 10:41 AM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT tech wiki

My objection is not about the cost, which is nominal, but about the principle 
of going down the path of what can become a business-critical function 
offloaded to a third party, where you don't have full access to your own 
database/back-end.




On Sat, Jan 20, 2018 at 9:35 AM, Josh Baird  wrote:

  Confluence is only $10 for 10 users.  That’s my recommendation.


  On Jan 20, 2018, at 12:26 PM, Eric Kuhnke  wrote:


Full mediawiki, the same software that runs the backend of wikipedia. If 
you are not a competent Linux sysadmin, you are going to want to get one to set 
it up and maintain it. It's vastly more powerful and extensible than a medium 
sized ISP could ever need. I predict we will see people here recommend 
Confluence and other commercial solutions, but in my opinion all proper wiki 
software for serious use should be composed of 100% BSD, GPL and Apache 
licensed software.


On Sat, Jan 20, 2018 at 9:16 AM,  wrote:

  I want it to be in wiki format.  An ongoing knowledge base.  We had one 
at a former company and it was great.  But I was not the one that installed it 
so I don’t know what is involved in that.  

  From: Steve Jones 
  Sent: Saturday, January 20, 2018 10:14 AM
  To: af@afmug.com 
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT tech wiki

  if its not public, i use OneNote 
  its not in the wiki format but it logs changes, logs who made changes and 
allows multiuser access

  On Sat, Jan 20, 2018 at 11:06 AM,  wrote:

What is the most pain free way to create a wiki?

Re: [AFMUG] Quick comparison between 80GHz and AF24

[Eric Kuhnke]

Depends highly on where. I wouldn't do 80 GHz at beyond 2.5 to 3.0 km
(never mind 3.5 miles), but if you're going to set up a link that will do
ACM, both will work...  It's sort of a toss up, 80 GHz has more rain fade,
but much higher allowable Tx EIRP (+18 radios going into a 51.5dBi gain
dish), whereas 33dBm EIRP is the max for 24 GHz.

It also depends what sort of 80 GHz radio you use. If you use a model that
allows a 1250 MHz wide channel each way FDD, that channel can use much
lower-order modulations (QPSK and 16QAM) vs what an AF24/AF24HD requires to
accomplish a 1 Gbps link. It's comparing apples and oranges. The 71-86 GHz
band plan allows for much, much wider low and high channels than a 2 x 100
MHz AF24 link.



On Fri, Jan 19, 2018 at 4:02 PM, Rory Conaway 
wrote:

> I haven’t run the numbers so please save me some time.  Which one has less
> fade margin at 3.5 miles?  I was going to use Siklu with a 2’ antenna.
>
>
>
> *Rory Conaway **• Triad Wireless •** CEO*
>
> *4226 S. 37 th
> Street • Phoenix • AZ 85040*
>
> *602-426-0542 <(602)%20426-0542>*
>
> *r...@triadwireless.net *
>
> *www.triadwireless.net *
>
>
>
> “"Engineers believe that if it ain't broke, it doesn't have enough
> features yet."— Scott Adams
>
>
>

Re: [AFMUG] OT tech wiki

[Eric Kuhnke]

My objection is not about the cost, which is nominal, but about the
principle of going down the path of what can become a business-critical
function offloaded to a third party, where you don't have full access to
your own database/back-end.



On Sat, Jan 20, 2018 at 9:35 AM, Josh Baird  wrote:

> Confluence is only $10 for 10 users.  That’s my recommendation.
>
> On Jan 20, 2018, at 12:26 PM, Eric Kuhnke  wrote:
>
> Full mediawiki, the same software that runs the backend of wikipedia. If
> you are not a competent Linux sysadmin, you are going to want to get one to
> set it up and maintain it. It's vastly more powerful and extensible than a
> medium sized ISP could ever need. I predict we will see people here
> recommend Confluence and other commercial solutions, but in my opinion all
> proper wiki software for serious use should be composed of 100% BSD, GPL
> and Apache licensed software.
>
> On Sat, Jan 20, 2018 at 9:16 AM,  wrote:
>
>> I want it to be in wiki format.  An ongoing knowledge base.  We had one
>> at a former company and it was great.  But I was not the one that installed
>> it so I don’t know what is involved in that.
>>
>> *From:* Steve Jones
>> *Sent:* Saturday, January 20, 2018 10:14 AM
>> *To:* af@afmug.com
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT tech wiki
>>
>> if its not public, i use OneNote
>> its not in the wiki format but it logs changes, logs who made changes and
>> allows multiuser access
>>
>> On Sat, Jan 20, 2018 at 11:06 AM,  wrote:
>>
>>> What is the most pain free way to create a wiki?
>>>
>>
>>
>
>

Re: [AFMUG] OT tech wiki

[Josh Baird]

Confluence is only $10 for 10 users.  That’s my recommendation.

> On Jan 20, 2018, at 12:26 PM, Eric Kuhnke  wrote:
> 
> Full mediawiki, the same software that runs the backend of wikipedia. If you 
> are not a competent Linux sysadmin, you are going to want to get one to set 
> it up and maintain it. It's vastly more powerful and extensible than a medium 
> sized ISP could ever need. I predict we will see people here recommend 
> Confluence and other commercial solutions, but in my opinion all proper wiki 
> software for serious use should be composed of 100% BSD, GPL and Apache 
> licensed software.
> 
>> On Sat, Jan 20, 2018 at 9:16 AM,  wrote:
>> I want it to be in wiki format.  An ongoing knowledge base.  We had one at a 
>> former company and it was great.  But I was not the one that installed it so 
>> I don’t know what is involved in that. 
>>  
>> From: Steve Jones
>> Sent: Saturday, January 20, 2018 10:14 AM
>> To: af@afmug.com
>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT tech wiki
>>  
>> if its not public, i use OneNote
>> its not in the wiki format but it logs changes, logs who made changes and 
>> allows multiuser access
>>  
>>> On Sat, Jan 20, 2018 at 11:06 AM,  wrote:
>>> What is the most pain free way to create a wiki?
>> 
>>  
> 

Re: [AFMUG] OT tech wiki

[chuck]

I know nothing about OneNote, so speaking from a position of total ignorance 
here, I don’t care about creating a log or history of problems with particular 
customers, our billing software does that very well.

I want to have a quickly searchable database.  For example, this morning I have 
a customer that is having a problem of callers to his house receiving an all 
circuits busy or re-order tone.  I want to be able to search on things like: 
wireshark SIP filter settings, SIP messages for inbound calls.  Things unique 
to our particular company.  Shared notes that are searchable for all.  ONT 
configs, router upgrade notes, info, configs, methods etc etc.  

I would start with our ServerPlus decision tree and add to it with hints and 
tips as to how to fix each problem etc.  

From: Steve Jones 
Sent: Saturday, January 20, 2018 10:21 AM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT tech wiki

OneNote is WAY better for that. thats where I maintain all our documentation. 
try it out, not the App, the actual program. ive stayed with 2013 because it 
flows better. It like a digital binder, less restrictive than any wiki i ever 
met. drag and drop stuff. i embed alot of excel files, they view-able directly 
and then editable outside the page but save right back. its sexy for ip space 
management. the only drawback is you can only go like 4 sub pages deep per 
section. i do job orders for contractors in it and export them as pdf, sexy, 
all sexy

On Sat, Jan 20, 2018 at 11:16 AM,  wrote:

  I want it to be in wiki format.  An ongoing knowledge base.  We had one at a 
former company and it was great.  But I was not the one that installed it so I 
don’t know what is involved in that.  

  From: Steve Jones 
  Sent: Saturday, January 20, 2018 10:14 AM
  To: af@afmug.com 
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT tech wiki

  if its not public, i use OneNote 
  its not in the wiki format but it logs changes, logs who made changes and 
allows multiuser access

  On Sat, Jan 20, 2018 at 11:06 AM,  wrote:

What is the most pain free way to create a wiki?

Re: [AFMUG] OT tech wiki

[Eric Kuhnke]

Full mediawiki, the same software that runs the backend of wikipedia. If
you are not a competent Linux sysadmin, you are going to want to get one to
set it up and maintain it. It's vastly more powerful and extensible than a
medium sized ISP could ever need. I predict we will see people here
recommend Confluence and other commercial solutions, but in my opinion all
proper wiki software for serious use should be composed of 100% BSD, GPL
and Apache licensed software.

On Sat, Jan 20, 2018 at 9:16 AM,  wrote:

> I want it to be in wiki format.  An ongoing knowledge base.  We had one at
> a former company and it was great.  But I was not the one that installed it
> so I don’t know what is involved in that.
>
> *From:* Steve Jones
> *Sent:* Saturday, January 20, 2018 10:14 AM
> *To:* af@afmug.com
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT tech wiki
>
> if its not public, i use OneNote
> its not in the wiki format but it logs changes, logs who made changes and
> allows multiuser access
>
> On Sat, Jan 20, 2018 at 11:06 AM,  wrote:
>
>> What is the most pain free way to create a wiki?
>>
>
>

Re: [AFMUG] OT tech wiki

[Steve Jones]

we maintain a separate one note for each of our contract support customers.
its the best centralized documentation for those we ever had. and we can
give them visibility or export it for them. the only issue is if your
offline making edits and someone else is you have to do conflict mitigation
when they sync, but thats with anything

On Sat, Jan 20, 2018 at 11:21 AM, Steve Jones 
wrote:

> OneNote is WAY better for that. thats where I maintain all our
> documentation. try it out, not the App, the actual program. ive stayed with
> 2013 because it flows better. It like a digital binder, less restrictive
> than any wiki i ever met. drag and drop stuff. i embed alot of excel files,
> they view-able directly and then editable outside the page but save right
> back. its sexy for ip space management. the only drawback is you can only
> go like 4 sub pages deep per section. i do job orders for contractors in it
> and export them as pdf, sexy, all sexy
>
> On Sat, Jan 20, 2018 at 11:16 AM,  wrote:
>
>> I want it to be in wiki format.  An ongoing knowledge base.  We had one
>> at a former company and it was great.  But I was not the one that installed
>> it so I don’t know what is involved in that.
>>
>> *From:* Steve Jones
>> *Sent:* Saturday, January 20, 2018 10:14 AM
>> *To:* af@afmug.com
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT tech wiki
>>
>> if its not public, i use OneNote
>> its not in the wiki format but it logs changes, logs who made changes and
>> allows multiuser access
>>
>> On Sat, Jan 20, 2018 at 11:06 AM,  wrote:
>>
>>> What is the most pain free way to create a wiki?
>>>
>>
>>
>
>

Re: [AFMUG] OT tech wiki

[Steve Jones]

OneNote is WAY better for that. thats where I maintain all our
documentation. try it out, not the App, the actual program. ive stayed with
2013 because it flows better. It like a digital binder, less restrictive
than any wiki i ever met. drag and drop stuff. i embed alot of excel files,
they view-able directly and then editable outside the page but save right
back. its sexy for ip space management. the only drawback is you can only
go like 4 sub pages deep per section. i do job orders for contractors in it
and export them as pdf, sexy, all sexy

On Sat, Jan 20, 2018 at 11:16 AM,  wrote:

> I want it to be in wiki format.  An ongoing knowledge base.  We had one at
> a former company and it was great.  But I was not the one that installed it
> so I don’t know what is involved in that.
>
> *From:* Steve Jones
> *Sent:* Saturday, January 20, 2018 10:14 AM
> *To:* af@afmug.com
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT tech wiki
>
> if its not public, i use OneNote
> its not in the wiki format but it logs changes, logs who made changes and
> allows multiuser access
>
> On Sat, Jan 20, 2018 at 11:06 AM,  wrote:
>
>> What is the most pain free way to create a wiki?
>>
>
>

Re: [AFMUG] OT tech wiki

[chuck]

I want it to be in wiki format.  An ongoing knowledge base.  We had one at a 
former company and it was great.  But I was not the one that installed it so I 
don’t know what is involved in that.  

From: Steve Jones 
Sent: Saturday, January 20, 2018 10:14 AM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT tech wiki

if its not public, i use OneNote 
its not in the wiki format but it logs changes, logs who made changes and 
allows multiuser access

On Sat, Jan 20, 2018 at 11:06 AM,  wrote:

  What is the most pain free way to create a wiki?

Re: [AFMUG] OT tech wiki

[Steve Jones]

if its not public, i use OneNote
its not in the wiki format but it logs changes, logs who made changes and
allows multiuser access

On Sat, Jan 20, 2018 at 11:06 AM,  wrote:

> What is the most pain free way to create a wiki?
>

[AFMUG] OT tech wiki

[chuck]

What is the most pain free way to create a wiki?

Re: [AFMUG] Quick comparison between 80GHz and AF24

[chuck]

I can understand an 80 GHz AP that covers perhaps a 500 foot radius.  Or ptp.  
But it seems of limited utility to me.  

From: Mathew Howard 
Sent: Saturday, January 20, 2018 9:42 AM
To: af 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Quick comparison between 80GHz and AF24

I'm kind of curious why one wouldn't just go with 11ghz or 18ghz on this link? 
The only reason that I'd consider using 80ghz on a link like that would be if I 
needed lots of capacity... but if an AF24 is an option, I'm assuming it doesn't 
need to be all that high of capacity, and if 80ghz is an option, cost also 
isn't that big of a factor. Unless it's a case where you can't wait for 
licensing, or there aren't 11ghz channels available, why not just go licensed?

On Sat, Jan 20, 2018 at 10:07 AM, Faisal Imtiaz  
wrote:

  We have two things to contend with... 
  one is Oxygen Absorption
  second is Rain Fade

  Science says, 24ghz has much less O2 absorption fade vs 80ghz
  Science also says that 24ghz has slightly less Rain fade vs 80ghz

  Science also says that if on a particular link, if one is comparing 24ghz vs 
80ghz, the difference in which link drops first will be based on the TX power / 
Antenna Gain and Rx sensitivity.

  If all things were exactly the same, then 80ghz would drop before 24ghz in 
Rain event.
  But in reality, all things are not the same.. I believe 80ghz one is allowed 
more power, and higher antenna gain.


  https://www.e-band.com/index.php?id=86

  
https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/dont-fall-siklu-overbuilds-distance-claims-david-theodore


  at 3.5miles, one is pushing the limits of both 24gzh as well as 80ghz.. 
Depending on what you are trying to achieve, and the rainzone, you can make 
your choice based on what will perform better normally... cause both of them 
will go out in rain :)

  Best of Luck

  Faisal Imtiaz
  Snappy Internet & Telecom
  http://www.snappytelecom.net

  Tel: 305 663 5518 x 232

  Help-desk: (305)663-5518 Option 2 or Email: supp...@snappytelecom.net


--

From: "Mathew Howard" 
To: "af" 
Sent: Friday, January 19, 2018 8:42:31 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Quick comparison between 80GHz and AF24

I'd guess 24ghz would be slightly better, but either one is going to drop 
at that distance if you ever get heavy rain. 

Somebody from Siklu told me at one time, that some of their customers have 
told then that their rainfade is slightly better than an AF24, but slightly 
worse than an AF24HD... how accurate that is, I don't know. 

On Jan 19, 2018 6:03 PM, "Rory Conaway"  wrote:

  I haven’t run the numbers so please save me some time.  Which one has 
less fade margin at 3.5 miles?  I was going to use Siklu with a 2’ antenna.



  Rory Conaway • Triad Wireless • CEO

  4226 S. 37th Street • Phoenix • AZ 85040

  602-426-0542

  r...@triadwireless.net

  www.triadwireless.net



  “"Engineers believe that if it ain't broke, it doesn't have enough 
features yet."— Scott Adams 

Re: [AFMUG] OT SSL Certs

[chuck]

Oh, shopping carts yes, I have shopping carts.

From: Mike Hammett 
Sent: Saturday, January 20, 2018 9:39 AM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT SSL Certs

I think LetsEncrypt is fine for everything except shopping carts.




-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions

Midwest Internet Exchange

The Brothers WISP








From: ch...@wbmfg.com
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: Saturday, January 20, 2018 10:34:34 AM
Subject: [AFMUG] OT SSL Certs


My GoDaddy SSL is coming up for renewal.  Is there any reason to continue to 
pay for SSL certs since you can get them for free and  you can even make your 
own?

Re: [AFMUG] Quick comparison between 80GHz and AF24

[Mathew Howard]

I'm kind of curious why one wouldn't just go with 11ghz or 18ghz on this
link? The only reason that I'd consider using 80ghz on a link like that
would be if I needed lots of capacity... but if an AF24 is an option, I'm
assuming it doesn't need to be all that high of capacity, and if 80ghz is
an option, cost also isn't that big of a factor. Unless it's a case where
you can't wait for licensing, or there aren't 11ghz channels available, why
not just go licensed?

On Sat, Jan 20, 2018 at 10:07 AM, Faisal Imtiaz 
wrote:

> We have two things to contend with...
> one is Oxygen Absorption
> second is Rain Fade
>
> Science says, 24ghz has much less O2 absorption fade vs 80ghz
> Science also says that 24ghz has slightly less Rain fade vs 80ghz
>
> Science also says that if on a particular link, if one is comparing 24ghz
> vs 80ghz, the difference in which link drops first will be based on the TX
> power / Antenna Gain and Rx sensitivity.
>
> If all things were exactly the same, then 80ghz would drop before 24ghz in
> Rain event.
> But in reality, all things are not the same.. I believe 80ghz one is
> allowed more power, and higher antenna gain.
>
>
> https://www.e-band.com/index.php?id=86
>
> https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/dont-fall-siklu-overbuilds-distance-claims-
> david-theodore
>
>
> at 3.5miles, one is pushing the limits of both 24gzh as well as 80ghz..
> Depending on what you are trying to achieve, and the rainzone, you can make
> your choice based on what will perform better normally... cause both of
> them will go out in rain :)
>
> Best of Luck
>
> Faisal Imtiaz
> Snappy Internet & Telecom
> http://www.snappytelecom.net
>
> Tel: 305 663 5518 x 232 <(305)%20663-5518>
>
> Help-desk: (305)663-5518 <(305)%20663-5518> Option 2 or Email:
> supp...@snappytelecom.net
>
> --
>
> *From: *"Mathew Howard" 
> *To: *"af" 
> *Sent: *Friday, January 19, 2018 8:42:31 PM
> *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Quick comparison between 80GHz and AF24
>
> I'd guess 24ghz would be slightly better, but either one is going to drop
> at that distance if you ever get heavy rain.
>
> Somebody from Siklu told me at one time, that some of their customers have
> told then that their rainfade is slightly better than an AF24, but slightly
> worse than an AF24HD... how accurate that is, I don't know.
>
> On Jan 19, 2018 6:03 PM, "Rory Conaway"  wrote:
>
>> I haven’t run the numbers so please save me some time.  Which one has
>> less fade margin at 3.5 miles?  I was going to use Siklu with a 2’ antenna.
>>
>>
>>
>> *Rory Conaway **• Triad Wireless •** CEO*
>>
>> *4226 S. 37
>> th Street •
>> Phoenix • AZ 85040*
>>
>> *602-426-0542 <(602)%20426-0542>*
>>
>> *r...@triadwireless.net *
>>
>> *www.triadwireless.net *
>>
>>
>>
>> “"Engineers believe that if it ain't broke, it doesn't have enough
>> features yet."— Scott Adams
>>
>>
>>
>
>

Re: [AFMUG] OT SSL Certs

[Mike Hammett]

I think LetsEncrypt is fine for everything except shopping carts. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: ch...@wbmfg.com 
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Saturday, January 20, 2018 10:34:34 AM 
Subject: [AFMUG] OT SSL Certs 




My GoDaddy SSL is coming up for renewal. Is there any reason to continue to pay 
for SSL certs since you can get them for free and you can even make your own? 

Re: [AFMUG] OT SSL Certs

[Josh Baird]

You want to issue certificates from a CA that is trusted by browsers, etc
especially for websites.  Otherwise, your users will get warnings.

On Sat, Jan 20, 2018 at 11:34 AM,  wrote:

> My GoDaddy SSL is coming up for renewal.  Is there any reason to continue
> to pay for SSL certs since you can get them for free and  you can even make
> your own?
>

[AFMUG] OT SSL Certs

[chuck]

My GoDaddy SSL is coming up for renewal.  Is there any reason to continue to 
pay for SSL certs since you can get them for free and  you can even make your 
own?

Re: [AFMUG] Quick comparison between 80GHz and AF24

[chuck]

How about droplet size and shape vs wavelength and polarization?

From: Faisal Imtiaz 
Sent: Saturday, January 20, 2018 9:07 AM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Quick comparison between 80GHz and AF24

We have two things to contend with... 
one is Oxygen Absorption
second is Rain Fade

Science says, 24ghz has much less O2 absorption fade vs 80ghz
Science also says that 24ghz has slightly less Rain fade vs 80ghz

Science also says that if on a particular link, if one is comparing 24ghz vs 
80ghz, the difference in which link drops first will be based on the TX power / 
Antenna Gain and Rx sensitivity.

If all things were exactly the same, then 80ghz would drop before 24ghz in Rain 
event.
But in reality, all things are not the same.. I believe 80ghz one is allowed 
more power, and higher antenna gain.


https://www.e-band.com/index.php?id=86

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/dont-fall-siklu-overbuilds-distance-claims-david-theodore


at 3.5miles, one is pushing the limits of both 24gzh as well as 80ghz.. 
Depending on what you are trying to achieve, and the rainzone, you can make 
your choice based on what will perform better normally... cause both of them 
will go out in rain :)

Best of Luck

Faisal Imtiaz
Snappy Internet & Telecom
http://www.snappytelecom.net

Tel: 305 663 5518 x 232

Help-desk: (305)663-5518 Option 2 or Email: supp...@snappytelecom.net




  From: "Mathew Howard" 
  To: "af" 
  Sent: Friday, January 19, 2018 8:42:31 PM
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Quick comparison between 80GHz and AF24

  I'd guess 24ghz would be slightly better, but either one is going to drop at 
that distance if you ever get heavy rain. 

  Somebody from Siklu told me at one time, that some of their customers have 
told then that their rainfade is slightly better than an AF24, but slightly 
worse than an AF24HD... how accurate that is, I don't know. 

  On Jan 19, 2018 6:03 PM, "Rory Conaway"  wrote:

I haven’t run the numbers so please save me some time.  Which one has less 
fade margin at 3.5 miles?  I was going to use Siklu with a 2’ antenna.



Rory Conaway • Triad Wireless • CEO

4226 S. 37th Street • Phoenix • AZ 85040

602-426-0542

r...@triadwireless.net

www.triadwireless.net



“"Engineers believe that if it ain't broke, it doesn't have enough features 
yet."— Scott Adams 

Re: [AFMUG] Quick comparison between 80GHz and AF24

[Faisal Imtiaz]

We have two things to contend with... 
one is Oxygen Absorption 
second is Rain Fade 

Science says, 24ghz has much less O2 absorption fade vs 80ghz 
Science also says that 24ghz has slightly less Rain fade vs 80ghz 

Science also says that if on a particular link, if one is comparing 24ghz vs 
80ghz, the difference in which link drops first will be based on the TX power / 
Antenna Gain and Rx sensitivity. 

If all things were exactly the same, then 80ghz would drop before 24ghz in Rain 
event. 
But in reality, all things are not the same.. I believe 80ghz one is allowed 
more power, and higher antenna gain. 

https://www.e-band.com/index.php?id=86 

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/dont-fall-siklu-overbuilds-distance-claims-david-theodore
 

at 3.5miles, one is pushing the limits of both 24gzh as well as 80ghz.. 
Depending on what you are trying to achieve, and the rainzone, you can make 
your choice based on what will perform better normally... cause both of them 
will go out in rain :) 

Best of Luck 

Faisal Imtiaz 
Snappy Internet & Telecom 
http://www.snappytelecom.net 

Tel: 305 663 5518 x 232 

Help-desk: (305)663-5518 Option 2 or Email: supp...@snappytelecom.net 

> From: "Mathew Howard" 
> To: "af" 
> Sent: Friday, January 19, 2018 8:42:31 PM
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Quick comparison between 80GHz and AF24

> I'd guess 24ghz would be slightly better, but either one is going to drop at
> that distance if you ever get heavy rain.

> Somebody from Siklu told me at one time, that some of their customers have 
> told
> then that their rainfade is slightly better than an AF24, but slightly worse
> than an AF24HD... how accurate that is, I don't know.

> On Jan 19, 2018 6:03 PM, "Rory Conaway" < r...@triadwireless.net > wrote:

>> I haven’t run the numbers so please save me some time. Which one has less 
>> fade
>> margin at 3.5 miles? I was going to use Siklu with a 2’ antenna.

>> Rory Conaway • Triad Wireless • CEO

>> 4226 S. 37 th Street • Phoenix • AZ 85040

>> 602-426-0542

>> r...@triadwireless.net

>> www.triadwireless.net

>> “"Engineers believe that if it ain't broke, it doesn't have enough features
>> yet." — Scott Adams

Re: [AFMUG] OT MoviePass

[Darin Steffl]

Lewis,

The FAQ says you can go every calendar day. But I had a customer tell me
that they had to wait 24 hours for the check-in to work again. Have you had
trouble like that or can you go to a movie yesterday at 9pm and go again
today at 12pm for example, less than 24 hours between them?

On Sat, Jan 20, 2018 at 9:35 AM, Lewis Bergman 
wrote:

> I went 3 days ago, yesterday, and again today. I also have been three
> other times this month. $1.66 per movie. Before long I'll believe that is
> all a first release movie is worth just like 20 something think interest
> rates should be zero.
>
> On Fri, Jan 19, 2018, 6:38 PM Darin Steffl 
> wrote:
>
>> Received my moviepass yesterday. Activated today and am at a movie now.
>> The movie cost $10.82 but I only paid the equivalent of $7.50 per month.
>> Already getting more than my money's worth. Going to one or two more movies
>> this weekend probably.
>>
>> Love it!
>>
>> On Jan 19, 2018 10:12 AM, "CBB - Jay Fuller" 
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> the app only lets you pick movies today - - so i am assuming no.
>>> although if you wanted to go to the movie theatre early and buy the ticket
>>> for a later showing i assume you could.  then you could give the ticket to
>>> whomever.
>>>
>>> and you have to pick the movie you want to see on the app - - but since
>>> you're actually using a credit card to buy the card i doubt the software
>>> can only unlock a certain movie.  more likely it unlocks a certain price
>>> amount.
>>>
>>> hmm, that being said, i guess you could buy a ticket for "tomorrow"
>>> assuming the box office can sell you one for tomorrow.  i'd probably try
>>> that first to test my theory using your own cash.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> - Original Message -
>>> *From:* Lewis Bergman 
>>> *To:* af@afmug.com
>>> *Sent:* Friday, January 19, 2018 9:41 AM
>>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT MoviePass
>>>
>>> I don't think so, but I haven't tried such a  thing. "Invest" $10
>>> and find out.
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jan 19, 2018 at 8:32 AM Cassidy B. Larson 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Here’s a random question I had about this.. Can I buy my seat really
 early for a premier, then go by the next day and the next to buy another
 seat as a “buffer” on each side and in front and back.
 Then, could I give some of these tickets to friends and family if I
 wanted to fill in my buffer?


 On Jan 14, 2018, at 11:31 AM, Darin Steffl 
 wrote:

 Chuck,

 You sound like us millennials who want everything NOW! Haha ;)

 I'm 26 and fine waiting for the card in the mail but I also knew I'd
 have to wait so my expectations were already set. The FAQ spells it out
 pretty clearly.

 On Jan 14, 2018 10:37 AM, "Chuck McCown"  wrote:

 I know nothing about Fandor... yet.
> Still bummed out that I have to wait for the card.  I really thought I
> could sign up, get the app and use it immediately.
>
 *From:* CBB - Jay Fuller
>
 *Sent:* Saturday, January 13, 2018 7:24 PM
>
 *To:* af@afmug.com
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT MoviePass
>
 Got moviepass for my wife today through the costco website - it came
> with a streaming service too.  Anyone else see that?
> Is it any good?  Appeared to be mostly for movies.
>
> "FANDOR"
>
>
>
>
 - Original Message -
>
> *From:* Chuck McCown
> *To:* af@afmug.com
> *Sent:* Saturday, January 13, 2018 4:06 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT MoviePass
>
>
> Patience sometimes is hard to come by...
>
>
> *From:* Darin Steffl
> *Sent:* Saturday, January 13, 2018 1:38 PM
>
> *To:* af@afmug.com
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT MoviePass
>
> Chuck,
>
> I activated mine as well but the FAQ states we have to wait for the
> physical card to arrive before we can activate it and use it. This is
> unless your theater supports the e-ticket through movie pass which none of
> my theaters do.
>
> Your billing date starts when you receive and activate the physical
> card for the first time.
>
> Mine shipped a couple days after I redeemed the Costco offer online.
>
> On Jan 13, 2018 2:14 PM, "Jaime Solorza" 
> wrote:
>
> Sounds Big Brotherish
>>
>> Jaime Solorza
>>
> On Jan 13, 2018 1:07 PM, "CBB - Jay Fuller" 
>> wrote:
>>
>
>>> That is correct.  Mine came in about a week (after my mom got it for
>>> me for Christmas).
>>> I used it for the first time last night - saw the commuter.  The
>>> card is actually a credit card (mastercard)
>>> The app "activates" the card for use for 30 minutes while you are at
>>> the movie house.
>>> The app uses gps to verify where you are and will only activate the
>>> credit card while you are there (within 100 yards)
>>> You buy the movie ticket with the "moviepass" credit card.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> - Ori

Re: [AFMUG] OT MoviePass

[Lewis Bergman]

I went 3 days ago, yesterday, and again today. I also have been three other
times this month. $1.66 per movie. Before long I'll believe that is all a
first release movie is worth just like 20 something think interest rates
should be zero.

On Fri, Jan 19, 2018, 6:38 PM Darin Steffl  wrote:

> Received my moviepass yesterday. Activated today and am at a movie now.
> The movie cost $10.82 but I only paid the equivalent of $7.50 per month.
> Already getting more than my money's worth. Going to one or two more movies
> this weekend probably.
>
> Love it!
>
> On Jan 19, 2018 10:12 AM, "CBB - Jay Fuller" 
> wrote:
>
>>
>> the app only lets you pick movies today - - so i am assuming no.
>> although if you wanted to go to the movie theatre early and buy the ticket
>> for a later showing i assume you could.  then you could give the ticket to
>> whomever.
>>
>> and you have to pick the movie you want to see on the app - - but since
>> you're actually using a credit card to buy the card i doubt the software
>> can only unlock a certain movie.  more likely it unlocks a certain price
>> amount.
>>
>> hmm, that being said, i guess you could buy a ticket for "tomorrow"
>> assuming the box office can sell you one for tomorrow.  i'd probably try
>> that first to test my theory using your own cash.
>>
>>
>>
> - Original Message -
>> *From:* Lewis Bergman 
>> *To:* af@afmug.com
>> *Sent:* Friday, January 19, 2018 9:41 AM
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT MoviePass
>>
>> I don't think so, but I haven't tried such a  thing. "Invest" $10 and
>> find out.
>>
>> On Fri, Jan 19, 2018 at 8:32 AM Cassidy B. Larson 
>> wrote:
>>
>> Here’s a random question I had about this.. Can I buy my seat really
>>> early for a premier, then go by the next day and the next to buy another
>>> seat as a “buffer” on each side and in front and back.
>>> Then, could I give some of these tickets to friends and family if I
>>> wanted to fill in my buffer?
>>>
>>>
>>> On Jan 14, 2018, at 11:31 AM, Darin Steffl 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Chuck,
>>>
>>> You sound like us millennials who want everything NOW! Haha ;)
>>>
>>> I'm 26 and fine waiting for the card in the mail but I also knew I'd
>>> have to wait so my expectations were already set. The FAQ spells it out
>>> pretty clearly.
>>>
>>> On Jan 14, 2018 10:37 AM, "Chuck McCown"  wrote:
>>>
>>> I know nothing about Fandor... yet.
 Still bummed out that I have to wait for the card.  I really thought I
 could sign up, get the app and use it immediately.

>>> *From:* CBB - Jay Fuller

>>> *Sent:* Saturday, January 13, 2018 7:24 PM

>>> *To:* af@afmug.com
 *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT MoviePass

>>> Got moviepass for my wife today through the costco website - it came
 with a streaming service too.  Anyone else see that?
 Is it any good?  Appeared to be mostly for movies.

 "FANDOR"




>>> - Original Message -

 *From:* Chuck McCown
 *To:* af@afmug.com
 *Sent:* Saturday, January 13, 2018 4:06 PM
 *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT MoviePass


 Patience sometimes is hard to come by...


 *From:* Darin Steffl
 *Sent:* Saturday, January 13, 2018 1:38 PM

 *To:* af@afmug.com
 *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT MoviePass

 Chuck,

 I activated mine as well but the FAQ states we have to wait for the
 physical card to arrive before we can activate it and use it. This is
 unless your theater supports the e-ticket through movie pass which none of
 my theaters do.

 Your billing date starts when you receive and activate the physical
 card for the first time.

 Mine shipped a couple days after I redeemed the Costco offer online.

 On Jan 13, 2018 2:14 PM, "Jaime Solorza" 
 wrote:

 Sounds Big Brotherish
>
> Jaime Solorza
>
 On Jan 13, 2018 1:07 PM, "CBB - Jay Fuller" 
> wrote:
>

>> That is correct.  Mine came in about a week (after my mom got it for
>> me for Christmas).
>> I used it for the first time last night - saw the commuter.  The card
>> is actually a credit card (mastercard)
>> The app "activates" the card for use for 30 minutes while you are at
>> the movie house.
>> The app uses gps to verify where you are and will only activate the
>> credit card while you are there (within 100 yards)
>> You buy the movie ticket with the "moviepass" credit card.
>>
>>
>>
>> - Original Message -
>> *From:* Chuck McCown
>> *To:* af@afmug.com
>> *Sent:* Saturday, January 13, 2018 1:12 PM
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT MoviePass
>>
>> It appears I have to wait for the physical cards to arrive before I
>> can activate the app.
>> It wants the last 4 digits off the card.
>>
>> *From:* Joe Novak
>> *Sent:* Saturday, January 13, 2018 12:08 PM
>> *To:* af@afmug.com
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT MoviePass
>>
>> I

Re: [AFMUG] Quick comparison between 80GHz and AF24

[Lewis Bergman]

Out fog, or any other suspended water droplets.

On Fri, Jan 19, 2018, 7:42 PM Mathew Howard  wrote:

> I'd guess 24ghz would be slightly better, but either one is going to drop
> at that distance if you ever get heavy rain.
>
> Somebody from Siklu told me at one time, that some of their customers have
> told then that their rainfade is slightly better than an AF24, but slightly
> worse than an AF24HD... how accurate that is, I don't know.
>
> On Jan 19, 2018 6:03 PM, "Rory Conaway"  wrote:
>
>> I haven’t run the numbers so please save me some time.  Which one has
>> less fade margin at 3.5 miles?  I was going to use Siklu with a 2’ antenna.
>>
>>
>>
>> *Rory Conaway **• Triad Wireless •** CEO*
>>
>> *4226 S. 37
>> th Street •
>> Phoenix • AZ 85040*
>>
>> *602-426-0542 <(602)%20426-0542>*
>>
>> *r...@triadwireless.net *
>>
>> *www.triadwireless.net *
>>
>>
>>
>> “"Engineers believe that if it ain't broke, it doesn't have enough
>> features yet."— Scott Adams
>>
>>
>>
>

Re: [AFMUG] Quick comparison between 80GHz and AF24

[Mike Hammett]

https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp/posts/1152763711515746 





- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: "Rory Conaway"  
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Friday, January 19, 2018 6:02:41 PM 
Subject: [AFMUG] Quick comparison between 80GHz and AF24 



I haven’t run the numbers so please save me some time. Which one has less fade 
margin at 3.5 miles? I was going to use Siklu with a 2’ antenna. 

Rory Conaway • Triad Wireless • CEO 
4226 S. 37 th Street • Phoenix • AZ 85040 
602-426-0542 
r...@triadwireless.net 
www.triadwireless.net 

“"Engineers believe that if it ain't broke, it doesn't have enough features 
yet." — Scott Adams