[amsat-bb] Re: ISS HamTV Frequencies (range gain)

[Fabio Azzarello]

Hi all,
1 or 2 degree per second is an educated guess for almost all passes.
If the pass is "over head" the speed will increase up to 4/5 degree per
second (as maximum value), such a speed is not achievable by all rotators.

Hope that helps,
73s

Fabio
IZ5XRC
www.amsat.it






On Mon, May 13, 2013 at 2:52 PM, Robert Bruninga  wrote:

> One needs to also realize duration.  The time say above 70 degree
> elevation (where rates are highest) are less than 2% of the total pass
> times.  Not worth worrying about.  Similarly, a LEO satellite spends 70%
> of its time below about 22 degrees.  (but it is far away and needs max
> gain).  So simply design for the best operation for most of the time when
> the link will work.
>
> Remember, the satellite is  3000 km away on the horizon and very weak, but
> as it gets into say 1500 km it is twice as close and 4 times (6 dB)
> stonger which is a heck of a lot of gain.  When it goes directly overhead
> it is another 6 dB closer which is more than *ten* times the signal on the
> horizon, so don't worry about the 2% of the time it is going to be above
> 70 degrees.  The signa is 10 times stronger and easy to deal with.
>
> Bob, WB4APR
>
> -Original Message-
> From: amsat-bb-boun...@amsat.org [mailto:amsat-bb-boun...@amsat.org] On
> Behalf Of Art McBride
> Sent: Monday, May 13, 2013 12:44 AM
> To: 'Roger'; amsat-bb@amsat.org
> Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: ISS HamTV Frequencies
>
> Roger,
> A SWAG, (Wild Guess) 1 degree per second at a Zenith of 90 degrees.
> Anything less than 90 degrees will be slower with several minutes spent
> near the horizon. You can use an orbital program to get exact numbers.
> With a wide beam width antenna, the lag overhead may never require the
> antenna to move with the object, as there will be time for the antenna
> system to catch up after passing overhead.
> Art,
> KC6UQH
>
> -Original Message-
> From: amsat-bb-boun...@amsat.org [mailto:amsat-bb-boun...@amsat.org] On
> Behalf Of Roger
> Sent: Sunday, May 12, 2013 2:34 PM
> To: amsat-bb@amsat.org
> Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: ISS HamTV Frequencies
>
> Anybody off the top of their heads know how many degrees a second swing
> are (is?) required for direct aim at the ISS?  I know there are beam width
> tolerances, altitude variations and degree above horizon variations but
> I'm looking at Bob B's fixed antenna aiming of 15-20 degrees above horizon
> to evaluate swinging a dish without torque eating up the drive train...
>
> Roger
> WA1KAT
> On 5/12/2013 5:01 PM, M5AKA wrote:
> > The AMSAT-UK page at
> > http://amsat-uk.org/2013/05/12/hamtv-from-the-iss/
> provides the links, they are:
> >
> > Facebook https://www.facebook.com/Hamtvproject
> >
> > More information at
> > http://www.amsat.it/Amsat-Italia_HamTV_brochure.pdf
> > and http://www.amsat.it/Amsat-Italia_HamTV.pdf
> >
> > The HamTV.pdf gives the link budget, looks like there's 7dB of
> coax/connector losses to overcome between the ISS transmitter and the
> antenna. That document indicates a 90cm dish should be sufficient.
> >
> > I believe that it's going up on ATV 4 which is currently slated for
> > June
> 5.
> >
> > 73 Trevor M5AKA
> >
> >
>
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[amsat-bb] Re: ISS HamTV Frequencies

[Jaime Robles]

+1

If the feed is only active for schools contacts it's going to be an
expensive ham activity as most of the equipment needed is going to be fully
dedicated for this and the schedule is going to be VERY limited.

Even if it sounds very attractive ... if there is not a permanent feed, I
will have to see the videos on YouTube :-/

73 de EA4TV
El 16/05/2013 02:13, "Stefan Wagener"  escribió:

> Thanks Emanuele,
>
> The last part of your message is actually the most important part. Watching
> the ISS astronauts talking to schools and having a video feed is great.
> However, looking at schedules and available downlinks for NA and or Europe,
> they are limited and might not really much worth of an investment for most
> ham operators. On the other hand having a more or less constant feed like
> the APRS would be outstanding. In addition, it would be even better to have
> the system connected to an outside pointing camera to get constant feeds on
> the earth while the ISS is flying overhead. That's a huge incentive, at
> least for me. Hope that is in the plans somehow.
>
> Stefan, VE4NSA
>
> On Wednesday, May 15, 2013, I0ELE wrote:
>
> > Hi Dave,
> > this will be normally used on the occasion of ARISS school contacts.
> > However ARISS intention is to have the video on for long periods with
> still
> > or live video material.
> > Emanuele I0ELE
> >
> > Il 15/05/2013 1.57, Dave Webb KB1PVH ha scritto:
> >
> >>
> >> I would like to know how often this is even going to be in operation
> >> before I make myself crazy trying to piece something together.
> >>
> >> Dave-KB1PVH
> >>
> >> Sent from my Verizon Wireless Droid RAZR
> >>
> >>
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> http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb>
> >
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[amsat-bb] Re: ISS HamTV Frequencies

[Bob- W7LRD]

That Stefan would be great! 
73 Bob 

- Original Message -
From: "Stefan Wagener"  
To: "I0ELE"  
Cc: "AMSAT -BB"  
Sent: Wednesday, May 15, 2013 4:40:59 PM 
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: ISS HamTV Frequencies 

Thanks Emanuele, 

The last part of your message is actually the most important part. Watching 
the ISS astronauts talking to schools and having a video feed is great. 
However, looking at schedules and available downlinks for NA and or Europe, 
they are limited and might not really much worth of an investment for most 
ham operators. On the other hand having a more or less constant feed like 
the APRS would be outstanding. In addition, it would be even better to have 
the system connected to an outside pointing camera to get constant feeds on 
the earth while the ISS is flying overhead. That's a huge incentive, at 
least for me. Hope that is in the plans somehow. 

Stefan, VE4NSA 

On Wednesday, May 15, 2013, I0ELE wrote: 

> Hi Dave, 
> this will be normally used on the occasion of ARISS school contacts. 
> However ARISS intention is to have the video on for long periods with still 
> or live video material. 
> Emanuele I0ELE 
> 
> Il 15/05/2013 1.57, Dave Webb KB1PVH ha scritto: 
> 
>> 
>> I would like to know how often this is even going to be in operation 
>> before I make myself crazy trying to piece something together. 
>> 
>> Dave-KB1PVH 
>> 
>> Sent from my Verizon Wireless Droid RAZR 
>> 
>> 
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>  
> 
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[amsat-bb] Re: ISS HamTV Frequencies

[Stefan Wagener]

Thanks Emanuele,

The last part of your message is actually the most important part. Watching
the ISS astronauts talking to schools and having a video feed is great.
However, looking at schedules and available downlinks for NA and or Europe,
they are limited and might not really much worth of an investment for most
ham operators. On the other hand having a more or less constant feed like
the APRS would be outstanding. In addition, it would be even better to have
the system connected to an outside pointing camera to get constant feeds on
the earth while the ISS is flying overhead. That's a huge incentive, at
least for me. Hope that is in the plans somehow.

Stefan, VE4NSA

On Wednesday, May 15, 2013, I0ELE wrote:

> Hi Dave,
> this will be normally used on the occasion of ARISS school contacts.
> However ARISS intention is to have the video on for long periods with still
> or live video material.
> Emanuele I0ELE
>
> Il 15/05/2013 1.57, Dave Webb KB1PVH ha scritto:
>
>>
>> I would like to know how often this is even going to be in operation
>> before I make myself crazy trying to piece something together.
>>
>> Dave-KB1PVH
>>
>> Sent from my Verizon Wireless Droid RAZR
>>
>>
> __**_
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> Subscription settings: 
> http://amsat.org/mailman/**listinfo/amsat-bb
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[amsat-bb] Re: ISS HamTV Frequencies

[I0ELE]

Hi Dave,
this will be normally used on the occasion of ARISS school contacts. 
However ARISS intention is to have the video on for long periods with 
still or live video material.

Emanuele I0ELE

Il 15/05/2013 1.57, Dave Webb KB1PVH ha scritto:


I would like to know how often this is even going to be in operation 
before I make myself crazy trying to piece something together.


Dave-KB1PVH

Sent from my Verizon Wireless Droid RAZR



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[amsat-bb] Re: ISS HamTV Frequencies

[Dave Webb KB1PVH]

I would like to know how often this is even going to be in operation before
I make myself crazy trying to piece something together.

Dave-KB1PVH

Sent from my Verizon Wireless Droid RAZR
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[amsat-bb] Re: ISS HamTV Frequencies

[Matty Cunningham]

This looks very interesting, wondering if it would be possible to tweak the 
tuners in DVB-S reveivers so no conversion would be needed?

>From http://amsat-uk.org/ :-
It is planned to transmit DVB-S signals on 2.4GHz at either 1.3Msps or 2.3Msps 
with 10 watts of RF from the ISS Columbus module.
The IARU Amateur Satellite Frequency Coordination Panel have announced 
frequencies of 2422.0 MHz and 2437.0 MHz.
Most of these receivers use 'L-Band' and can do 950Mhz to around 2Ghz - would 
be great if we could tweak this, or perhaps inject the 2.4ghz signal after the 
internal tuning stage, with a bit of buffering /amplification ?? :)

Looking at this:-
http://www.tbsdtv.com/products/tbs8920-dvb-s2-tv-tuner-pci-card.html

or this:-
http://www.proftuners.com/review_prof_7301.html

- Just as a quick search - it looks like  we could use these type of devices 
for 'decoding' the DVB stream, rather than going for the physical 'lump' and 
extra expense of a set-top box.


Matty
MD0MAN

Date: Mon, 13 May 2013 21:33:13 +0100 (BST)
From: M5AKA 
To: Daniel Schultz , amsat-bb@amsat.org, Greg Dolkas
    
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: ISS HamTV Frequencies
Message-ID:
<1368477193.60216.yahoomailclas...@web172303.mail.ir2.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
 
--- On Mon, 13/5/13, Greg Dolkas  wrote:
> Is there something about the DVB-S modulation that makes it
> astoundingly better for this application?? For
> something that is intended to be widely received, they sure
> are making it difficult...
 
DVB-S receivers are in use in hundreds of millions of homes around the world. 
Apart from DVB-S2, which is not yet so widespread, I'm not aware of any other 
standard that would deliver better performance in a 2 MHz bandwidth.
 
73 Trevor M5AKA   
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[amsat-bb] Re: ISS HamTV Frequencies

[Graham Shirville]

Hi all

There is a DATV forum on the BATC website and there is also a DATV forum on 
yahoo groups.


There is already plenty of DVB-S ATV activity in Europe, the US and 
Australia. The low symbol rate planned for the ISS activities cuts down the 
choice for available decoders but known to work are the Technotrend 
TT-budget S2-1600  and 3200 cards. They are available on the web from 
various suppliers.


Hope this helps

73

Graham
G3VZV



-Original Message- 
From: Peter Guelzow

Sent: Tuesday, May 14, 2013 7:28 AM
To: amsat-bb@AMSAT.Org
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: ISS HamTV Frequencies

Hi Dan,

the DVB Encoder and Modulator comes from
http://sr-systems.de/content.php?show=Startseite&lng=eng&style=std

The developers are hams and this stuff is available and used for D-ATV
in Germany since several years.

73s Peter DB2OS





On 14.05.2013 05:03, Daniel Schultz wrote:
I would research the matter carefully before buying any equipment, does 
anyone
in the ISS HamTV group have any data on which DVB-S receivers will work? 
This

is pretty much beyond what the gear was designed for!

Dan Schultz N8FGV

-- Original Message --
Received: Mon, 13 May 2013 10:52:22 PM EDT
From: Greg D 
To: M5AKA Cc: Daniel Schultz ,
amsat-bb@amsat.org
Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Re: ISS HamTV Frequencies


2 mhz?  Yeah, that would be tough...  Ok, DVB-S it is.

Thanks all for the education.  There's a swap meet coming up in a couple
of weeks...  Sounds like I have a now have a mission.  :-)

Greg  KO6TH


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[amsat-bb] Re: ISS HamTV Frequencies

[I0ELE]

Hi Dan,
we have tested two alternatives: one is a decoder on a PC Card and the 
other one is a commercial set top box.
The PC Card that we tested is Technotrend S2-3200 (around €60,00) and 
you can also use a very powerful software TUTIONNE (free) developed by 
Jean Pierre F6DZP. There is also a cheaper version, which F6DZP tested, 
which is Technotrend S2-1600. Check that your PC can host a standard PCI 
card.
The set top box that we tested is Megasat 400 (around €40/50) but most 
of commercial set top boxes are specified to work from 1 to 45 MSym/s. 
Remember that HAMTV can transmit a 1.3 MSym/s or a 2.0 MSym/s stream.

Emanuele I0ELE

Il 14/05/2013 5.03, Daniel Schultz ha scritto:

I would research the matter carefully before buying any equipment, does anyone
in the ISS HamTV group have any data on which DVB-S receivers will work? This
is pretty much beyond what the gear was designed for!

Dan Schultz N8FGV

-- Original Message --
Received: Mon, 13 May 2013 10:52:22 PM EDT
From: Greg D 
To: M5AKA Cc: Daniel Schultz ,
amsat-bb@amsat.org
Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Re: ISS HamTV Frequencies


2 mhz?  Yeah, that would be tough...  Ok, DVB-S it is.

Thanks all for the education.  There's a swap meet coming up in a couple
of weeks...  Sounds like I have a now have a mission.  :-)

Greg  KO6TH


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[amsat-bb] Re: ISS HamTV Frequencies

[Peter Guelzow]

Hi Dan,

the DVB Encoder and Modulator comes from
http://sr-systems.de/content.php?show=Startseite&lng=eng&style=std

The developers are hams and this stuff is available and used for D-ATV
in Germany since several years. 

73s Peter DB2OS





On 14.05.2013 05:03, Daniel Schultz wrote:
> I would research the matter carefully before buying any equipment, does anyone
> in the ISS HamTV group have any data on which DVB-S receivers will work? This
> is pretty much beyond what the gear was designed for!
>
> Dan Schultz N8FGV
>
> -- Original Message --
> Received: Mon, 13 May 2013 10:52:22 PM EDT
> From: Greg D 
> To: M5AKA Cc: Daniel Schultz ,
> amsat-bb@amsat.org
> Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Re: ISS HamTV Frequencies
>
>> 2 mhz?  Yeah, that would be tough...  Ok, DVB-S it is.
>>
>> Thanks all for the education.  There's a swap meet coming up in a couple 
>> of weeks...  Sounds like I have a now have a mission.  :-)
>>
>> Greg  KO6TH
>
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[amsat-bb] Re: ISS HamTV Frequencies

[Daniel Schultz]

I would research the matter carefully before buying any equipment, does anyone
in the ISS HamTV group have any data on which DVB-S receivers will work? This
is pretty much beyond what the gear was designed for!

Dan Schultz N8FGV

-- Original Message --
Received: Mon, 13 May 2013 10:52:22 PM EDT
From: Greg D 
To: M5AKA Cc: Daniel Schultz ,
amsat-bb@amsat.org
Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Re: ISS HamTV Frequencies

> 2 mhz?  Yeah, that would be tough...  Ok, DVB-S it is.
> 
> Thanks all for the education.  There's a swap meet coming up in a couple 
> of weeks...  Sounds like I have a now have a mission.  :-)
> 
> Greg  KO6TH


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[amsat-bb] Re: ISS HamTV Frequencies

[Greg D]

2 mhz?  Yeah, that would be tough...  Ok, DVB-S it is.

Thanks all for the education.  There's a swap meet coming up in a couple 
of weeks...  Sounds like I have a now have a mission.  :-)


Greg  KO6TH


M5AKA wrote:

--- On Mon, 13/5/13, Greg Dolkas  wrote:

Is there something about the DVB-S modulation that makes it
astoundingly better for this application?  For
something that is intended to be widely received, they sure
are making it difficult...

DVB-S receivers are in use in hundreds of millions of homes around the world. 
Apart from DVB-S2, which is not yet so widespread, I'm not aware of any other 
standard that would deliver better performance in a 2 MHz bandwidth.

73 Trevor M5AKA


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[amsat-bb] Re: ISS HamTV Frequencies

[M5AKA]

--- On Mon, 13/5/13, Greg Dolkas  wrote:
> Is there something about the DVB-S modulation that makes it
> astoundingly better for this application?  For
> something that is intended to be widely received, they sure
> are making it difficult...

DVB-S receivers are in use in hundreds of millions of homes around the world. 
Apart from DVB-S2, which is not yet so widespread, I'm not aware of any other 
standard that would deliver better performance in a 2 MHz bandwidth.

73 Trevor M5AKA


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[amsat-bb] Re: ISS HamTV Frequencies

[Greg Dolkas]

Thanks, Dan.  That helps a lot.
Is there something about the DVB-S modulation that makes it astoundingly better 
for this application?  For something that is intended to be widely received, 
they sure are making it difficult...
Greg. KO6TH 
-- 
Sent from my new toy...  Please ignore tupos.

Daniel Schultz  wrote:

>- Original Message -
>>> Right.  But what is that in terms of what normally gets described?  
>>> For example, I have a Digital TV card for my computer (Pinnacle PCTV
>
>>> HD).  It says it does "ATSC digital TV (HDTV up to 1080i, and SDTV)"
>
>>> and "Clear QAM (unencrypted digital cable)".
>>>
>>> Am I even close?
>>>
>>> Greg  KO6TH
>
>No, you are not even close.
>
>ATSC (Advanced Television Systems Committee) is the proprietary
>over-the-air
>television broadcast standard used in North America. It is
>fundamentally
>incompatible with the open source "DVB-T" broadcast standard that the
>rest of
>the world uses for domestic TV. (The fact that it was designed by a
>committee
>should tell you all that you need to know about that particular
>political
>sausage.) The "Cheap and Easy SDR" article in January QST requires
>using a
>DVB-T USB dongle which you need to purchase from a supplier that knows
>that
>you want to use it for SDR. The ATSC USB devices sold at Best Buy or
>other
>retail stores in the USA cannot be used for this purpose. 
>
>QAM is used only by cable TV and is never broadcast over the air. (Most
>cable
>systems use encrypted QAM so you will still need to rent the decoder
>box from
>the cable company). 
>
>DVB-S is the digital satellite TV standard that the "free to air" (FTA)
>satellite receivers use. We are not talking about Direct TV or Dish TV,
>but
>the C band services. If you watch NASA TV or the foreign language TV
>broadcasts directly from your C band dish, you are using DVB-S. This
>standard
>has been used for terrestrial ham ATV in some US cities. It would be
>best to
>contact the ATV experts directly to see what receivers they are using.
>I don't
>know which FTA receivers will work with the ISS ham TV. 
>
>Bottom line is: ATSC and QAM decoders are not useful for receiving the
>ISS ham
>TV signals, and DVB-S is not widely used in the USA except by dedicated
>"free
>to air" hobbyists. If you bought your receiver card or dongle from any
>US
>consumer retail store, it almost certainly is not what you need for ISS
>ham
>TV. 
>
>Dan Schultz N8FGV
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[amsat-bb] Re: ISS HamTV Frequencies (range gain)

[Robert Bruninga]

One needs to also realize duration.  The time say above 70 degree
elevation (where rates are highest) are less than 2% of the total pass
times.  Not worth worrying about.  Similarly, a LEO satellite spends 70%
of its time below about 22 degrees.  (but it is far away and needs max
gain).  So simply design for the best operation for most of the time when
the link will work.

Remember, the satellite is  3000 km away on the horizon and very weak, but
as it gets into say 1500 km it is twice as close and 4 times (6 dB)
stonger which is a heck of a lot of gain.  When it goes directly overhead
it is another 6 dB closer which is more than *ten* times the signal on the
horizon, so don't worry about the 2% of the time it is going to be above
70 degrees.  The signa is 10 times stronger and easy to deal with.

Bob, WB4APR

-Original Message-
From: amsat-bb-boun...@amsat.org [mailto:amsat-bb-boun...@amsat.org] On
Behalf Of Art McBride
Sent: Monday, May 13, 2013 12:44 AM
To: 'Roger'; amsat-bb@amsat.org
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: ISS HamTV Frequencies

Roger,
A SWAG, (Wild Guess) 1 degree per second at a Zenith of 90 degrees.
Anything less than 90 degrees will be slower with several minutes spent
near the horizon. You can use an orbital program to get exact numbers.
With a wide beam width antenna, the lag overhead may never require the
antenna to move with the object, as there will be time for the antenna
system to catch up after passing overhead.
Art,
KC6UQH

-Original Message-
From: amsat-bb-boun...@amsat.org [mailto:amsat-bb-boun...@amsat.org] On
Behalf Of Roger
Sent: Sunday, May 12, 2013 2:34 PM
To: amsat-bb@amsat.org
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: ISS HamTV Frequencies

Anybody off the top of their heads know how many degrees a second swing
are (is?) required for direct aim at the ISS?  I know there are beam width
tolerances, altitude variations and degree above horizon variations but
I'm looking at Bob B's fixed antenna aiming of 15-20 degrees above horizon
to evaluate swinging a dish without torque eating up the drive train...

Roger
WA1KAT
On 5/12/2013 5:01 PM, M5AKA wrote:
> The AMSAT-UK page at
> http://amsat-uk.org/2013/05/12/hamtv-from-the-iss/
provides the links, they are:
>
> Facebook https://www.facebook.com/Hamtvproject
>
> More information at
> http://www.amsat.it/Amsat-Italia_HamTV_brochure.pdf
> and http://www.amsat.it/Amsat-Italia_HamTV.pdf
>
> The HamTV.pdf gives the link budget, looks like there's 7dB of
coax/connector losses to overcome between the ISS transmitter and the
antenna. That document indicates a 90cm dish should be sufficient.
>
> I believe that it's going up on ATV 4 which is currently slated for
> June
5.
>
> 73 Trevor M5AKA
>
>

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[amsat-bb] Re: ISS HamTV Frequencies

[M5AKA]

Typo on my earlier email I meant HTV-4 not ATV-4 and so launch date is 
different around August ?

ARISS Antennas Installed on Columbus http://www.ariss-eu.org/columbus.htm

73 Trevor M5AKA


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[amsat-bb] Re: ISS HamTV Frequencies

[I0ELE]

Farrell,
HAMTV equipment will be delivered to the ISS in August (TBC) by the 
Japanese HTV-4 cargo.

You can check on the web the exact date.
Then we will start the commissioning soon and we will start the 
transmissions soon after.

Information on the transmission plan will be delivered on this BB.
Emanuele, I0ELE
Rome, Italy

Il 13/05/2013 2.03, Farrell Winder ha scritto:

Dear Emanuele,
Thanks for the detailed  information on the HAMTV stream.  Is the 
DTV-S equipment aboard the ISS now complete and ready to start 
transmissions?

Is there a target date as to when 2.4 GHz  transmissions might begin?
Thanks for any information.

Farrell Winder, W8ZCF
Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
--
From: "I0ELE" 
Sent: Sunday, May 12, 2013 6:32 PM
To: "Greg D" 
Cc: 
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: ISS HamTV Frequencies


HAMTV stream will be transmitted at 1.3 MSym/s or at 2.0 MSym/s.
Technical specs of the set-top box indicate the range of the decoded 
stream. Generally this range is from 2 to 45 MSym/s, therefore if you 
need to buy it, you should select one that can guarantee a range from 
1 to 45 MSym/s.


Emanuele I0ELE


Il 13/05/2013 0.15, Greg D ha scritto:
For the digital TV challenged, what means "Any DVB-S Decoder which 
can decode a 1.3 MSym/s TV signal"?  How would I know if I have such 
a thing, or what I would need to get if I don't.


Greg  KO6TH


I0ELE wrote:

Certainly!
You can find the nominal link budget on 
http://www.amsat.it/HAMTV_Link-budget-IARU.pdf and all the relevant 
information http://www.amsat.it/Amsat-Italia_HamTV_brochure.pdf.

However

 * Recommended Antenna gain > 25 dB
 * RHCP
 * Low noise down converter i.e. Kuhne LNC 25 or LNC 25 TM NF 0.7 dB
 * Any DVB-S  Decoder which can decode a 1.3 MSym/s TV signal

73, Emanuele, I0ELE
President AMSAT Italia
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[amsat-bb] Re: ISS HamTV Frequencies

[Daniel Schultz]

- Original Message -
>> Right.  But what is that in terms of what normally gets described?  
>> For example, I have a Digital TV card for my computer (Pinnacle PCTV 
>> HD).  It says it does "ATSC digital TV (HDTV up to 1080i, and SDTV)" 
>> and "Clear QAM (unencrypted digital cable)".
>>
>> Am I even close?
>>
>> Greg  KO6TH

No, you are not even close.

ATSC (Advanced Television Systems Committee) is the proprietary over-the-air
television broadcast standard used in North America. It is fundamentally
incompatible with the open source "DVB-T" broadcast standard that the rest of
the world uses for domestic TV. (The fact that it was designed by a committee
should tell you all that you need to know about that particular political
sausage.) The "Cheap and Easy SDR" article in January QST requires using a
DVB-T USB dongle which you need to purchase from a supplier that knows that
you want to use it for SDR. The ATSC USB devices sold at Best Buy or other
retail stores in the USA cannot be used for this purpose. 

QAM is used only by cable TV and is never broadcast over the air. (Most cable
systems use encrypted QAM so you will still need to rent the decoder box from
the cable company). 

DVB-S is the digital satellite TV standard that the "free to air" (FTA)
satellite receivers use. We are not talking about Direct TV or Dish TV, but
the C band services. If you watch NASA TV or the foreign language TV
broadcasts directly from your C band dish, you are using DVB-S. This standard
has been used for terrestrial ham ATV in some US cities. It would be best to
contact the ATV experts directly to see what receivers they are using. I don't
know which FTA receivers will work with the ISS ham TV. 

Bottom line is: ATSC and QAM decoders are not useful for receiving the ISS ham
TV signals, and DVB-S is not widely used in the USA except by dedicated "free
to air" hobbyists. If you bought your receiver card or dongle from any US
consumer retail store, it almost certainly is not what you need for ISS ham
TV. 

Dan Schultz N8FGV


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[amsat-bb] Re: ISS HamTV Frequencies

[Art McBride]

Roger,
A SWAG, (Wild Guess) 1 degree per second at a Zenith of 90 degrees. Anything
less than 90 degrees will be slower with several minutes spent near the
horizon. You can use an orbital program to get exact numbers. With a wide
beam width antenna, the lag overhead may never require the antenna to move
with the object, as there will be time for the antenna system to catch up
after passing overhead. 
Art,
KC6UQH 

-Original Message-
From: amsat-bb-boun...@amsat.org [mailto:amsat-bb-boun...@amsat.org] On
Behalf Of Roger
Sent: Sunday, May 12, 2013 2:34 PM
To: amsat-bb@amsat.org
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: ISS HamTV Frequencies

Anybody off the top of their heads know how many degrees a second swing 
are (is?) required for direct aim at the ISS?  I know there are beam 
width tolerances, altitude variations and degree above horizon 
variations but I'm looking at Bob B's fixed antenna aiming of 15-20 
degrees above horizon to evaluate swinging a dish without torque eating 
up the drive train...

Roger
WA1KAT
On 5/12/2013 5:01 PM, M5AKA wrote:
> The AMSAT-UK page at http://amsat-uk.org/2013/05/12/hamtv-from-the-iss/
provides the links, they are:
>
> Facebook https://www.facebook.com/Hamtvproject
>
> More information at http://www.amsat.it/Amsat-Italia_HamTV_brochure.pdf
> and http://www.amsat.it/Amsat-Italia_HamTV.pdf
>
> The HamTV.pdf gives the link budget, looks like there's 7dB of
coax/connector losses to overcome between the ISS transmitter and the
antenna. That document indicates a 90cm dish should be sufficient.
>
> I believe that it's going up on ATV 4 which is currently slated for June
5.
>
> 73 Trevor M5AKA
>
>

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[amsat-bb] Re: ISS HamTV Frequencies

[Greg D]

Ah, that is probably right.  Model is PCTV-800i; it's definitely aimed 
at terrestrial stuff.  Now I know what "-S" means...


Would there, by chance, be a decoder for the FunCube Dongle (or other 
USB thingie)?


Thanks for the help,

Greg  KO6TH


I0ELE wrote:

Hi Greg,
I believe that your Pinnacle PC Card is not for DVB-S (Satellite 
networks) but for DVB-T (terrestrial networks).
Please check on the web or give me the model of your card, so that I 
will check it.

Emanuele I0ELE

Il 13/05/2013 0.45, Greg D ha scritto:

Hi Emanuele,

Right.  But what is that in terms of what normally gets described?  
For example, I have a Digital TV card for my computer (Pinnacle PCTV 
HD).  It says it does "ATSC digital TV (HDTV up to 1080i, and SDTV)" 
and "Clear QAM (unencrypted digital cable)".


Am I even close?

Greg  KO6TH


I0ELE wrote:

HAMTV stream will be transmitted at 1.3 MSym/s or at 2.0 MSym/s.
Technical specs of the set-top box indicate the range of the decoded 
stream. Generally this range is from 2 to 45 MSym/s, therefore if 
you need to buy it, you should select one that can guarantee a range 
from 1 to 45 MSym/s.


Emanuele I0ELE


Il 13/05/2013 0.15, Greg D ha scritto:
For the digital TV challenged, what means "Any DVB-S Decoder which 
can decode a 1.3 MSym/s TV signal"?  How would I know if I have 
such a thing, or what I would need to get if I don't.


Greg  KO6TH


I0ELE wrote:

Certainly!
You can find the nominal link budget on 
http://www.amsat.it/HAMTV_Link-budget-IARU.pdf and all the 
relevant information 
http://www.amsat.it/Amsat-Italia_HamTV_brochure.pdf.

However

 * Recommended Antenna gain > 25 dB
 * RHCP
 * Low noise down converter i.e. Kuhne LNC 25 or LNC 25 TM NF 0.7 dB
 * Any DVB-S  Decoder which can decode a 1.3 MSym/s TV signal

73, Emanuele, I0ELE
President AMSAT Italia
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[amsat-bb] Re: ISS HamTV Frequencies

[I0ELE]

Hi Greg,
I believe that your Pinnacle PC Card is not for DVB-S (Satellite 
networks) but for DVB-T (terrestrial networks).
Please check on the web or give me the model of your card, so that I 
will check it.

Emanuele I0ELE

Il 13/05/2013 0.45, Greg D ha scritto:

Hi Emanuele,

Right.  But what is that in terms of what normally gets described?  
For example, I have a Digital TV card for my computer (Pinnacle PCTV 
HD).  It says it does "ATSC digital TV (HDTV up to 1080i, and SDTV)" 
and "Clear QAM (unencrypted digital cable)".


Am I even close?

Greg  KO6TH


I0ELE wrote:

HAMTV stream will be transmitted at 1.3 MSym/s or at 2.0 MSym/s.
Technical specs of the set-top box indicate the range of the decoded 
stream. Generally this range is from 2 to 45 MSym/s, therefore if you 
need to buy it, you should select one that can guarantee a range from 
1 to 45 MSym/s.


Emanuele I0ELE


Il 13/05/2013 0.15, Greg D ha scritto:
For the digital TV challenged, what means "Any DVB-S Decoder which 
can decode a 1.3 MSym/s TV signal"?  How would I know if I have such 
a thing, or what I would need to get if I don't.


Greg  KO6TH


I0ELE wrote:

Certainly!
You can find the nominal link budget on 
http://www.amsat.it/HAMTV_Link-budget-IARU.pdf and all the relevant 
information http://www.amsat.it/Amsat-Italia_HamTV_brochure.pdf.

However

 * Recommended Antenna gain > 25 dB
 * RHCP
 * Low noise down converter i.e. Kuhne LNC 25 or LNC 25 TM NF 0.7 dB
 * Any DVB-S  Decoder which can decode a 1.3 MSym/s TV signal

73, Emanuele, I0ELE
President AMSAT Italia
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[amsat-bb] Re: ISS HamTV Frequencies

[Greg D]

Hi Emanuele,

Right.  But what is that in terms of what normally gets described?  For 
example, I have a Digital TV card for my computer (Pinnacle PCTV HD).  
It says it does "ATSC digital TV (HDTV up to 1080i, and SDTV)" and 
"Clear QAM (unencrypted digital cable)".


Am I even close?

Greg  KO6TH


I0ELE wrote:

HAMTV stream will be transmitted at 1.3 MSym/s or at 2.0 MSym/s.
Technical specs of the set-top box indicate the range of the decoded 
stream. Generally this range is from 2 to 45 MSym/s, therefore if you 
need to buy it, you should select one that can guarantee a range from 
1 to 45 MSym/s.


Emanuele I0ELE


Il 13/05/2013 0.15, Greg D ha scritto:
For the digital TV challenged, what means "Any DVB-S Decoder which 
can decode a 1.3 MSym/s TV signal"?  How would I know if I have such 
a thing, or what I would need to get if I don't.


Greg  KO6TH


I0ELE wrote:

Certainly!
You can find the nominal link budget on 
http://www.amsat.it/HAMTV_Link-budget-IARU.pdf and all the relevant 
information http://www.amsat.it/Amsat-Italia_HamTV_brochure.pdf.

However

 * Recommended Antenna gain > 25 dB
 * RHCP
 * Low noise down converter i.e. Kuhne LNC 25 or LNC 25 TM NF 0.7 dB
 * Any DVB-S  Decoder which can decode a 1.3 MSym/s TV signal

73, Emanuele, I0ELE
President AMSAT Italia
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[amsat-bb] Re: ISS HamTV Frequencies

[I0ELE]

HAMTV stream will be transmitted at 1.3 MSym/s or at 2.0 MSym/s.
Technical specs of the set-top box indicate the range of the decoded 
stream. Generally this range is from 2 to 45 MSym/s, therefore if you 
need to buy it, you should select one that can guarantee a range from 1 
to 45 MSym/s.


Emanuele I0ELE


Il 13/05/2013 0.15, Greg D ha scritto:
For the digital TV challenged, what means "Any DVB-S Decoder which can 
decode a 1.3 MSym/s TV signal"?  How would I know if I have such a 
thing, or what I would need to get if I don't.


Greg  KO6TH


I0ELE wrote:

Certainly!
You can find the nominal link budget on 
http://www.amsat.it/HAMTV_Link-budget-IARU.pdf and all the relevant 
information http://www.amsat.it/Amsat-Italia_HamTV_brochure.pdf.

However

 * Recommended Antenna gain > 25 dB
 * RHCP
 * Low noise down converter i.e. Kuhne LNC 25 or LNC 25 TM NF 0.7 dB
 * Any DVB-S  Decoder which can decode a 1.3 MSym/s TV signal

73, Emanuele, I0ELE
President AMSAT Italia
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[amsat-bb] Re: ISS HamTV Frequencies

[Greg D]

For the digital TV challenged, what means "Any DVB-S Decoder which can 
decode a 1.3 MSym/s TV signal"?  How would I know if I have such a 
thing, or what I would need to get if I don't.


Greg  KO6TH


I0ELE wrote:

Certainly!
You can find the nominal link budget on 
http://www.amsat.it/HAMTV_Link-budget-IARU.pdf and all the relevant 
information http://www.amsat.it/Amsat-Italia_HamTV_brochure.pdf.

However

 * Recommended Antenna gain > 25 dB
 * RHCP
 * Low noise down converter i.e. Kuhne LNC 25 or LNC 25 TM NF 0.7 dB
 * Any DVB-S  Decoder which can decode a 1.3 MSym/s TV signal

73, Emanuele, I0ELE
President AMSAT Italia
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[amsat-bb] Re: ISS HamTV Frequencies

[Greg D]

A dish like in the picture probably has a beam-width of 15-ish degrees.  
I used a 30 inch BBQ grill antenna for AO-40, and would notice a 
drop-off when mis-aimed by about that much.  ISS moves VERY quickly 
compared to AO-40, so some sort of active positioning on both axis is 
going to be required.


I need to get that dish back up on the rotisserie...

Greg  KO6TH


Roger wrote:
Anybody off the top of their heads know how many degrees a second 
swing are (is?) required for direct aim at the ISS?  I know there are 
beam width tolerances, altitude variations and degree above horizon 
variations but I'm looking at Bob B's fixed antenna aiming of 15-20 
degrees above horizon to evaluate swinging a dish without torque 
eating up the drive train...


Roger
WA1KAT
On 5/12/2013 5:01 PM, M5AKA wrote:
The AMSAT-UK page at 
http://amsat-uk.org/2013/05/12/hamtv-from-the-iss/ provides the 
links, they are:


Facebook https://www.facebook.com/Hamtvproject

More information at http://www.amsat.it/Amsat-Italia_HamTV_brochure.pdf
and http://www.amsat.it/Amsat-Italia_HamTV.pdf

The HamTV.pdf gives the link budget, looks like there's 7dB of 
coax/connector losses to overcome between the ISS transmitter and the 
antenna. That document indicates a 90cm dish should be sufficient.


I believe that it's going up on ATV 4 which is currently slated for 
June 5.


73 Trevor M5AKA




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[amsat-bb] Re: ISS HamTV Frequencies

[I0ELE]

Certainly!
You can find the nominal link budget on 
http://www.amsat.it/HAMTV_Link-budget-IARU.pdf and all the relevant 
information http://www.amsat.it/Amsat-Italia_HamTV_brochure.pdf.

However

 * Recommended Antenna gain > 25 dB
 * RHCP
 * Low noise down converter i.e. Kuhne LNC 25 or LNC 25 TM NF 0.7 dB
 * Any DVB-S  Decoder which can decode a 1.3 MSym/s TV signal

73, Emanuele, I0ELE

Il 12/05/2013 19.15, Stefan Wagener ha scritto:

Nice!

Has anyone figured out any ground station requirements? Antenna gain,
polarization, receiving equipment etc...

Stefan, VE4NSA


On Sun, May 12, 2013 at 11:01 AM, M5AKA  wrote:


The IARU Amateur Satellite Frequency Coordination Panel have announced
frequencies of 2422.0 MHz and 2437.0 MHz.

See http://amsat-uk.org/2013/05/12/hamtv-from-the-iss/


73 Trevor M5AKA
AMSAT-UK website http://amsat-uk.org/
Facebook https://www.facebook.com/pages/AMSAT-UK/208113275898396
Twitter https://twitter.com/AMSAT_UK


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[amsat-bb] Re: ISS HamTV Frequencies

[M5AKA]

HamTV - Houston Power Point slides 
http://www.amsat.org/amsat/ariss/Meetings/2011_Houston/Presentations/11%20Presentazione_Houston_Draft.pdf

Some addition information plus a video of a presentation given by AMSAT-Italia 
(video in Italian) is on the ESA website at 
http://www.esa.int/About_Us/ESRIN/Radio_hams_at_ESRIN_with_AMSAT_Italia/%28print%29

I understand the HamTV equipment will be carried to the ISS on the ATV 4 
spacecraft currently planned to launch on June 5.

BTW Italy also has an Astronaut Luca Parmitano KF5KDP heading to the ISS.
Luca is planned to launch from Baikonur in Kazhakstan to the ISS on May 28 and 
is also mentioned in his post - 
USA High School Student’s RocketHub Project 
http://amsat-uk.org/2013/05/11/high-school-students-rockethub-project/

73 Trevor M5AKA

--- On Sun, 12/5/13, M5AKA  wrote:
> The AMSAT-UK page at http://amsat-uk.org/2013/05/12/hamtv-from-the-iss/
> provides the links, they are:
> 
> Facebook https://www.facebook.com/Hamtvproject
> 
> More information at http://www.amsat.it/Amsat-Italia_HamTV_brochure.pdf 
> and http://www.amsat.it/Amsat-Italia_HamTV.pdf 
> 
> The HamTV.pdf gives the link budget, looks like there's 7dB
> of coax/connector losses to overcome between the ISS
> transmitter and the antenna. That document indicates a 90cm
> dish should be sufficient.
> 
> I believe that it's going up on ATV 4 which is currently
> slated for June 5.
> 
> 73 Trevor M5AKA


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[amsat-bb] Re: ISS HamTV Frequencies

[Roger]

Anybody off the top of their heads know how many degrees a second swing 
are (is?) required for direct aim at the ISS?  I know there are beam 
width tolerances, altitude variations and degree above horizon 
variations but I'm looking at Bob B's fixed antenna aiming of 15-20 
degrees above horizon to evaluate swinging a dish without torque eating 
up the drive train...


Roger
WA1KAT
On 5/12/2013 5:01 PM, M5AKA wrote:

The AMSAT-UK page at http://amsat-uk.org/2013/05/12/hamtv-from-the-iss/ 
provides the links, they are:

Facebook https://www.facebook.com/Hamtvproject

More information at http://www.amsat.it/Amsat-Italia_HamTV_brochure.pdf
and http://www.amsat.it/Amsat-Italia_HamTV.pdf

The HamTV.pdf gives the link budget, looks like there's 7dB of coax/connector 
losses to overcome between the ISS transmitter and the antenna. That document 
indicates a 90cm dish should be sufficient.

I believe that it's going up on ATV 4 which is currently slated for June 5.

73 Trevor M5AKA




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[amsat-bb] Re: ISS HamTV Frequencies

[I0ELE]

Certainly!
You can find the nominal link budget on 
http://www.amsat.it/HAMTV_Link-budget-IARU.pdf and all the relevant 
information http://www.amsat.it/Amsat-Italia_HamTV_brochure.pdf.

However

 * Recommended Antenna gain > 25 dB
 * RHCP
 * Low noise down converter i.e. Kuhne LNC 25 or LNC 25 TM NF 0.7 dB
 * Any DVB-S  Decoder which can decode a 1.3 MSym/s TV signal

73, Emanuele, I0ELE
President AMSAT Italia
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[amsat-bb] Re: ISS HamTV Frequencies

[M5AKA]

The AMSAT-UK page at http://amsat-uk.org/2013/05/12/hamtv-from-the-iss/ 
provides the links, they are:

Facebook https://www.facebook.com/Hamtvproject

More information at http://www.amsat.it/Amsat-Italia_HamTV_brochure.pdf 
and http://www.amsat.it/Amsat-Italia_HamTV.pdf 

The HamTV.pdf gives the link budget, looks like there's 7dB of coax/connector 
losses to overcome between the ISS transmitter and the antenna. That document 
indicates a 90cm dish should be sufficient.

I believe that it's going up on ATV 4 which is currently slated for June 5.

73 Trevor M5AKA

--- On Sun, 12/5/13, R Oler  wrote:

From: R Oler 
Subject: RE: [amsat-bb] ISS HamTV Frequencies
To: "M5AKA" 
Date: Sunday, 12 May, 2013, 17:46




Trevor...I have been so busy with our family moving to our new farm and 
ferrying a bunch of airplanes to Bangladesh and India...that I have not read a 
lot on this.  Do you have a link on the topic?

I am about to get both a VU and SL2 license and will put both active on at 
least AO7 and VU 52...

thanks in advance. Robert G. Oler WB5MZO

> Date: Sun, 12 May 2013 17:01:46 +0100
> From: m5...@yahoo.co.uk
> To: amsat-bb@amsat.org
> Subject: [amsat-bb] ISS HamTV Frequencies
> 
> The IARU Amateur Satellite Frequency Coordination Panel have announced 
> frequencies of 2422.0 MHz and 2437.0 MHz.
> 
> See http://amsat-uk.org/2013/05/12/hamtv-from-the-iss/
> 
> 
> 73 Trevor M5AKA
> AMSAT-UK website http://amsat-uk.org/
> Facebook https://www.facebook.com/pages/AMSAT-UK/208113275898396
>
 Twitter https://twitter.com/AMSAT_UK
> 
> 
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[amsat-bb] Re: ISS HamTV Frequencies

[Stefan Wagener]

Nice!

Has anyone figured out any ground station requirements? Antenna gain,
polarization, receiving equipment etc...

Stefan, VE4NSA


On Sun, May 12, 2013 at 11:01 AM, M5AKA  wrote:

> The IARU Amateur Satellite Frequency Coordination Panel have announced
> frequencies of 2422.0 MHz and 2437.0 MHz.
>
> See http://amsat-uk.org/2013/05/12/hamtv-from-the-iss/
>
> 
> 73 Trevor M5AKA
> AMSAT-UK website http://amsat-uk.org/
> Facebook https://www.facebook.com/pages/AMSAT-UK/208113275898396
> Twitter https://twitter.com/AMSAT_UK
> 
>
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>
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