Re: BMC Remedy and Flash
That's an interesting perception of costs associated with downtime. I had never thought of the dollar value of minimizing downtime. But you have a great point although the values perception portrayed by you below may just be rough estimates. A good argument to present to a management that think zero downtime is an actual possibility. It's like buying a new car. Even if you get the best trade in deal ever while driving from your smartphone, and drive straight to the dealership, and meet all possible purchase and insurance requirements and what not online from your smartphone, you still have to get out of your old car to get into your new. That would be a minutes down time at least, unless you somehow magically invent time travel and then - swsshhh.. turn back time to save even that minute.. Joe _ From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList) [mailto:arslist@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of John Sundberg Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2014 10:39 AM To: arslist@ARSLIST.ORG Subject: Re: BMC Remedy and Flash ** Joe, I agree. Also - it is like this . the closer you get to no downtime - the more expensive the migration. (roughly) 1 week of downtime - migration costs $15,000 1 weekend of downtime - migration costs $50,000 1 day of downtime - migration costs $100,000 1 hour of downtime - migration costs $200,000 1 minute of downtime - migration costs $300,000 I know of very few (probably none) - that when presented with the costs of an upgrade like this - that they would choose the 1 minute of downtime. (Most would fall in the weekend space) Also - I would imagine. If they presented to their company that we could either 1) Upgrade over a weekend (60 hrs) - at a cost of $50,000 or 2) Upgrade and only be down (1 hrs) - at a cost of $200,000 99% would go for the #1 option - and complain about that cost too. Hey - the formula might just be: (Roughly) Cost = $10,000 / % of the day down. -John On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 12:06 AM, Joe D'Souza jdso...@shyle.net wrote: Within certain limits though. I would not go that far to claim to the customer/management that there will be absolutely no down time during code migration. There will be. By taking servers on and off a server group, to upgrade core system versions, yes that can be done with 'minimal' down time. But the migration and code upgrade, takes as much down time as the migration of the code itself takes. Even if you stand up a completely new parallel system, and then decide a switch by mirroring a database, there still will be that minimal time required to port the delta data. Personally I think it is not possible to completely eliminate downtime if your system is significantly large. Its like approaching infinity in mathematics - you can get close, but you can never get there. You just got to be content you got close enough.. Cheers Joe -Original Message- From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList) [mailto:arslist@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of Zandi Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2014 6:49 AM To: arslist@ARSLIST.ORG Subject: Re: BMC Remedy and Flash 24/7 is already there... It is called server groups, if you implement this would can take a server down and the others will takeover while it is being patched. You will need a load balancer as well. This also allows for larger system use as well My 2 cents Sent from my iPhone On Mar 17, 2014, at 3:12 PM, James Smith bmcremedyarslis...@gmail.com wrote: Nice info Doug, thanks for sharing. Want to add 2 cents if its considered then its of great use. Currently we have windows based tools for development activities and data migration like Developer studio and Import tool. Will it be feasible to make then available over web? One more thing, how can we make remedy to be available 24*7 during upgrades as well - zero downtime upgrades. This will help the product to compete in the market. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at www.arslist.org Where the Answers Are, and have been for 20 years -- John Sundberg Kinetic Data, Inc. Your Business. Your Process. 651-556-0930 I john.sundb...@kineticdata.com http://www.kineticdata.com/ www.kineticdata.com I http://community.kineticdata.com/ community.kineticdata.com _ARSlist: Where the Answers Are and have been for 20 years_ ___ UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at www.arslist.org Where the Answers Are, and have been for 20 years
Re: BMC Remedy and Flash
Even if they say they are going to make that a possibility, I would assume it would mean that it will only significantly decrease downtime to make it close to a few minutes or maybe an hour.. not completely eliminate it. Approach 0 but not equal it. Joe _ From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList) [mailto:arslist@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of LJ LongWing Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2014 10:45 PM To: arslist@ARSLIST.ORG Subject: Re: BMC Remedy and Flash ** I never heard that it was scheduled to be included in a release. On Mar 19, 2014 8:32 PM, Rick Cook remedyr...@gmail.com wrote: ** And James, if you're referring to the zero-downtime upgrade that's been talked about and demonstrated as a POC by BMC, that's scheduled for a future release. We hope that means the next one, but that's still TBD. Rick On Tue, Mar 18, 2014 at 3:49 AM, Zandi remedy...@gmail.com wrote: 24/7 is already there... It is called server groups, if you implement this would can take a server down and the others will takeover while it is being patched. You will need a load balancer as well. This also allows for larger system use as well My 2 cents Sent from my iPhone On Mar 17, 2014, at 3:12 PM, James Smith bmcremedyarslis...@gmail.com wrote: Nice info Doug, thanks for sharing. Want to add 2 cents if its considered then its of great use. Currently we have windows based tools for development activities and data migration like Developer studio and Import tool. Will it be feasible to make then available over web? One more thing, how can we make remedy to be available 24*7 during upgrades as well - zero downtime upgrades. This will help the product to compete in the market. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at www.arslist.org Where the Answers Are, and have been for 20 years ___ UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at www.arslist.org Where the Answers Are, and have been for 20 years _ARSlist: Where the Answers Are and have been for 20 years_ _ARSlist: Where the Answers Are and have been for 20 years_ ___ UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at www.arslist.org Where the Answers Are, and have been for 20 years
Re: BMC Remedy and Flash
Zero downtime upgrades are not possible in remedy as far as I know. Let say I have 3 servers in group with version 7603 Now if I start upgrading server1 to 81, I have to bring down other two servers or enable admin operations. Even if the upgrade goes successful, I have to follow the same procedure for other two servers to replace files and executables of 7603 to 81 There will be a significant down time considered in this process ___ UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at www.arslist.org Where the Answers Are, and have been for 20 years
Re: BMC Remedy and Flash
This is why standing up a parallel environment, and then migrating the delta between the two environments, is often a quicker way than directly upgrading the current environment. It still doesn't make it a zero downtime solution. Just minimizes it a little more. Cheers Joe -Original Message- From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList) [mailto:arslist@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of SUBSCRIBE arslist Sweety Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2014 3:18 AM To: arslist@ARSLIST.ORG Subject: Re: BMC Remedy and Flash Zero downtime upgrades are not possible in remedy as far as I know. Let say I have 3 servers in group with version 7603 Now if I start upgrading server1 to 81, I have to bring down other two servers or enable admin operations. Even if the upgrade goes successful, I have to follow the same procedure for other two servers to replace files and executables of 7603 to 81 There will be a significant down time considered in this process ___ UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at www.arslist.org Where the Answers Are, and have been for 20 years
Re: BMC Remedy and Flash
Patrick, With web servers no - you will face no downtime as it is only a sort of a 'portal' if you will with no user developed or customized code. The downtime with a web server could well be as minimal as a user connected to an old instance who might get kicked out so may have to log in again. I think this discussion started with code migration. Downtime there could happen during an upgrade or migration where you can safely assume that roughly about 20% or above of the code will change, data will need to be migrated, user caches would need to be rebuilt, a possible DNS refresh might need to happen in case of server name changes, etc. Joe PS: Apologies to those who might have responded to my responses to you'll and have not heard from me - I am reading all these mail in a reverse chronology to catch up with some mails I missed. _ From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList) [mailto:arslist@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of patrick zandi Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2014 10:21 AM To: arslist@ARSLIST.ORG Subject: Re: BMC Remedy and Flash ** Joe help me understand the downtime with a server group scenario. If you have 3 web servers (which can rotate each out and be patched, os and application wise - then rotated back in), and have 3 Servers is a server group (which again be pulled patched, upgraded, OS patched and put back into group) one at a time.. All the servers in the group are connected to the SQL Cluster / oracle RAC .. I still see no outages, vice a bomb or something physical/network related. DR is the fail over to a completely redundant system in a different location, where either data replication was going on, or the DSO was turned to active to a live system, which is the case of the bomb/tornado/911 instance. On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 1:06 AM, Joe D'Souza jdso...@shyle.net wrote: Within certain limits though. I would not go that far to claim to the customer/management that there will be absolutely no down time during code migration. There will be. By taking servers on and off a server group, to upgrade core system versions, yes that can be done with 'minimal' down time. But the migration and code upgrade, takes as much down time as the migration of the code itself takes. Even if you stand up a completely new parallel system, and then decide a switch by mirroring a database, there still will be that minimal time required to port the delta data. Personally I think it is not possible to completely eliminate downtime if your system is significantly large. Its like approaching infinity in mathematics - you can get close, but you can never get there. You just got to be content you got close enough.. Cheers Joe -Original Message- From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList) [mailto:arslist@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of Zandi Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2014 6:49 AM To: arslist@ARSLIST.ORG Subject: Re: BMC Remedy and Flash 24/7 is already there... It is called server groups, if you implement this would can take a server down and the others will takeover while it is being patched. You will need a load balancer as well. This also allows for larger system use as well My 2 cents Sent from my iPhone On Mar 17, 2014, at 3:12 PM, James Smith bmcremedyarslis...@gmail.com wrote: Nice info Doug, thanks for sharing. Want to add 2 cents if its considered then its of great use. Currently we have windows based tools for development activities and data migration like Developer studio and Import tool. Will it be feasible to make then available over web? One more thing, how can we make remedy to be available 24*7 during upgrades as well - zero downtime upgrades. This will help the product to compete in the market. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at www.arslist.org Where the Answers Are, and have been for 20 years -- Patrick Zandi _ARSlist: Where the Answers Are and have been for 20 years_ ___ UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at www.arslist.org Where the Answers Are, and have been for 20 years
Re: BMC Remedy and Flash
Actually it's not 100% true. If you are patching the host Operating system etc., this would be true and also to a limited extent for the ARS app server. However when you are updating the ITSM apps or the ARS app server in a significant way (changes the underlying schema), this is not the case. When Remedy is utilized in a mission critical role, those personnel that support Remedy would really benefit from a true zero downtime feature. This was presented/discussed at WWRUG 2012 as a possible future enhancement. Personally I would really really really like to see this become a reality. Jim Coryat Senior Software Engineer Micron Technology, Inc. -Original Message- From: Zandi [mailto:remedy...@gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2014 4:49 AM Subject: Re: BMC Remedy and Flash 24/7 is already there... It is called server groups, if you implement this would can take a server down and the others will takeover while it is being patched. You will need a load balancer as well. This also allows for larger system use as well My 2 cents Sent from my iPhone On Mar 17, 2014, at 3:12 PM, James Smith bmcremedyarslis...@gmail.com wrote: Nice info Doug, thanks for sharing. Want to add 2 cents if its considered then its of great use. Currently we have windows based tools for development activities and data migration like Developer studio and Import tool. Will it be feasible to make then available over web? One more thing, how can we make remedy to be available 24*7 during upgrades as well - zero downtime upgrades. This will help the product to compete in the market. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at www.arslist.org Where the Answers Are, and have been for 20 years ___ UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at www.arslist.org Where the Answers Are, and have been for 20 years ___ UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at www.arslist.org Where the Answers Are, and have been for 20 years
Re: BMC Remedy and Flash
Hi, The demo of the zero-downtime application update was really nice. And for smaller definition updates it seems great. In many cases when it is time to upgrade you AR Server or ITSM, it is usually time to switch hardware/os/db-version as well. In this scenario it is more important to have a good delta-data-migration utility (adv: such as rrrchive) to minimize the downtime. Best Regards - Misi, RRR AB, http://www.rrr.se (ARSList MVP 2011) Ask the Remedy Licensing Experts (Best R.O.I. Award at WWRUG10/11/12/13): * RRR|License - Not enough Remedy licenses? Save money by optimizing. * RRR|Log - Performance issues or elusive bugs? Analyze your Remedy logs. Find these products, and many free tools and utilities, at http://rrr.se. Actually it's not 100% true. If you are patching the host Operating system etc., this would be true and also to a limited extent for the ARS app server. However when you are updating the ITSM apps or the ARS app server in a significant way (changes the underlying schema), this is not the case. When Remedy is utilized in a mission critical role, those personnel that support Remedy would really benefit from a true zero downtime feature. This was presented/discussed at WWRUG 2012 as a possible future enhancement. Personally I would really really really like to see this become a reality. Jim Coryat Senior Software Engineer Micron Technology, Inc. -Original Message- From: Zandi [mailto:remedy...@gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2014 4:49 AM Subject: Re: BMC Remedy and Flash 24/7 is already there... It is called server groups, if you implement this would can take a server down and the others will takeover while it is being patched. You will need a load balancer as well. This also allows for larger system use as well My 2 cents Sent from my iPhone On Mar 17, 2014, at 3:12 PM, James Smith bmcremedyarslis...@gmail.com wrote: Nice info Doug, thanks for sharing. Want to add 2 cents if its considered then its of great use. Currently we have windows based tools for development activities and data migration like Developer studio and Import tool. Will it be feasible to make then available over web? One more thing, how can we make remedy to be available 24*7 during upgrades as well - zero downtime upgrades. This will help the product to compete in the market. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at www.arslist.org Where the Answers Are, and have been for 20 years ___ UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at www.arslist.org Where the Answers Are, and have been for 20 years ___ UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at www.arslist.org Where the Answers Are, and have been for 20 years ___ UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at www.arslist.org Where the Answers Are, and have been for 20 years
Re: BMC Remedy and Flash
Not always true Misi. We have virtualized our Remedy environment and so we don't have hardware constraints per se. This not 100% of the time when you consider updating the OS on the virtual host but that is less often than an application update. I agree in those cases where you will be migrating code, having a tool that will do this consistently and efficiently is paramount. That is why we used the rrrchive application with great success. :^) Jim Coryat Senior Software Engineer Micron Technology, Inc. -Original Message- From: Misi Mladoniczky [mailto:m...@rrr.se] Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2014 8:03 AM Subject: Re: BMC Remedy and Flash Hi, The demo of the zero-downtime application update was really nice. And for smaller definition updates it seems great. In many cases when it is time to upgrade you AR Server or ITSM, it is usually time to switch hardware/os/db-version as well. In this scenario it is more important to have a good delta-data-migration utility (adv: such as rrrchive) to minimize the downtime. Best Regards - Misi, RRR AB, http://www.rrr.se (ARSList MVP 2011) Ask the Remedy Licensing Experts (Best R.O.I. Award at WWRUG10/11/12/13): * RRR|License - Not enough Remedy licenses? Save money by optimizing. * RRR|Log - Performance issues or elusive bugs? Analyze your Remedy logs. Find these products, and many free tools and utilities, at http://rrr.se. Actually it's not 100% true. If you are patching the host Operating system etc., this would be true and also to a limited extent for the ARS app server. However when you are updating the ITSM apps or the ARS app server in a significant way (changes the underlying schema), this is not the case. When Remedy is utilized in a mission critical role, those personnel that support Remedy would really benefit from a true zero downtime feature. This was presented/discussed at WWRUG 2012 as a possible future enhancement. Personally I would really really really like to see this become a reality. Jim Coryat Senior Software Engineer Micron Technology, Inc. -Original Message- From: Zandi [mailto:remedy...@gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2014 4:49 AM Subject: Re: BMC Remedy and Flash 24/7 is already there... It is called server groups, if you implement this would can take a server down and the others will takeover while it is being patched. You will need a load balancer as well. This also allows for larger system use as well My 2 cents Sent from my iPhone On Mar 17, 2014, at 3:12 PM, James Smith bmcremedyarslis...@gmail.com wrote: Nice info Doug, thanks for sharing. Want to add 2 cents if its considered then its of great use. Currently we have windows based tools for development activities and data migration like Developer studio and Import tool. Will it be feasible to make then available over web? One more thing, how can we make remedy to be available 24*7 during upgrades as well - zero downtime upgrades. This will help the product to compete in the market. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at www.arslist.org Where the Answers Are, and have been for 20 years ___ UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at www.arslist.org Where the Answers Are, and have been for 20 years ___ UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at www.arslist.org Where the Answers Are, and have been for 20 years ___ UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at www.arslist.org Where the Answers Are, and have been for 20 years ___ UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at www.arslist.org Where the Answers Are, and have been for 20 years
Re: BMC Remedy and Flash
when you Visualize you should have the Vmotion ability to move from host to host, which eliminates this from the equation. But I must be living in a perfect world the world of a real Data Center I know the realities... On Thu, Mar 20, 2014 at 11:33 AM, Jim Coryat (jcoryat) jcor...@micron.comwrote: Not always true Misi. We have virtualized our Remedy environment and so we don't have hardware constraints per se. This not 100% of the time when you consider updating the OS on the virtual host but that is less often than an application update. I agree in those cases where you will be migrating code, having a tool that will do this consistently and efficiently is paramount. That is why we used the rrrchive application with great success. :^) Jim Coryat Senior Software Engineer Micron Technology, Inc. -Original Message- From: Misi Mladoniczky [mailto:m...@rrr.se] Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2014 8:03 AM Subject: Re: BMC Remedy and Flash Hi, The demo of the zero-downtime application update was really nice. And for smaller definition updates it seems great. In many cases when it is time to upgrade you AR Server or ITSM, it is usually time to switch hardware/os/db-version as well. In this scenario it is more important to have a good delta-data-migration utility (adv: such as rrrchive) to minimize the downtime. Best Regards - Misi, RRR AB, http://www.rrr.se (ARSList MVP 2011) Ask the Remedy Licensing Experts (Best R.O.I. Award at WWRUG10/11/12/13): * RRR|License - Not enough Remedy licenses? Save money by optimizing. * RRR|Log - Performance issues or elusive bugs? Analyze your Remedy logs. Find these products, and many free tools and utilities, at http://rrr.se. Actually it's not 100% true. If you are patching the host Operating system etc., this would be true and also to a limited extent for the ARS app server. However when you are updating the ITSM apps or the ARS app server in a significant way (changes the underlying schema), this is not the case. When Remedy is utilized in a mission critical role, those personnel that support Remedy would really benefit from a true zero downtime feature. This was presented/discussed at WWRUG 2012 as a possible future enhancement. Personally I would really really really like to see this become a reality. Jim Coryat Senior Software Engineer Micron Technology, Inc. -Original Message- From: Zandi [mailto:remedy...@gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2014 4:49 AM Subject: Re: BMC Remedy and Flash 24/7 is already there... It is called server groups, if you implement this would can take a server down and the others will takeover while it is being patched. You will need a load balancer as well. This also allows for larger system use as well My 2 cents Sent from my iPhone On Mar 17, 2014, at 3:12 PM, James Smith bmcremedyarslis...@gmail.com wrote: Nice info Doug, thanks for sharing. Want to add 2 cents if its considered then its of great use. Currently we have windows based tools for development activities and data migration like Developer studio and Import tool. Will it be feasible to make then available over web? One more thing, how can we make remedy to be available 24*7 during upgrades as well - zero downtime upgrades. This will help the product to compete in the market. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at www.arslist.org Where the Answers Are, and have been for 20 years ___ UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at www.arslist.org Where the Answers Are, and have been for 20 years ___ UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at www.arslist.org Where the Answers Are, and have been for 20 years ___ UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at www.arslist.org Where the Answers Are, and have been for 20 years ___ UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at www.arslist.org Where the Answers Are, and have been for 20 years -- Patrick Zandi ___ UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at www.arslist.org Where the Answers Are, and have been for 20 years
Re: BMC Remedy and Flash
Joe help me understand the downtime with a server group scenario. If you have 3 web servers (which can rotate each out and be patched, os and application wise - then rotated back in), and have 3 Servers is a server group (which again be pulled patched, upgraded, OS patched and put back into group) one at a time.. All the servers in the group are connected to the SQL Cluster / oracle RAC .. I still see no outages, vice a bomb or something physical/network related. DR is the fail over to a completely redundant system in a different location, where either data replication was going on, or the DSO was turned to active to a live system, which is the case of the bomb/tornado/911 instance. On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 1:06 AM, Joe D'Souza jdso...@shyle.net wrote: Within certain limits though. I would not go that far to claim to the customer/management that there will be absolutely no down time during code migration. There will be. By taking servers on and off a server group, to upgrade core system versions, yes that can be done with 'minimal' down time. But the migration and code upgrade, takes as much down time as the migration of the code itself takes. Even if you stand up a completely new parallel system, and then decide a switch by mirroring a database, there still will be that minimal time required to port the delta data. Personally I think it is not possible to completely eliminate downtime if your system is significantly large. Its like approaching infinity in mathematics - you can get close, but you can never get there. You just got to be content you got close enough.. Cheers Joe -Original Message- From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList) [mailto:arslist@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of Zandi Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2014 6:49 AM To: arslist@ARSLIST.ORG Subject: Re: BMC Remedy and Flash 24/7 is already there... It is called server groups, if you implement this would can take a server down and the others will takeover while it is being patched. You will need a load balancer as well. This also allows for larger system use as well My 2 cents Sent from my iPhone On Mar 17, 2014, at 3:12 PM, James Smith bmcremedyarslis...@gmail.com wrote: Nice info Doug, thanks for sharing. Want to add 2 cents if its considered then its of great use. Currently we have windows based tools for development activities and data migration like Developer studio and Import tool. Will it be feasible to make then available over web? One more thing, how can we make remedy to be available 24*7 during upgrades as well - zero downtime upgrades. This will help the product to compete in the market. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at www.arslist.org Where the Answers Are, and have been for 20 years -- Patrick Zandi ___ UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at www.arslist.org Where the Answers Are, and have been for 20 years
Re: BMC Remedy and Flash
Joe, I agree. Also - it is like this ... the closer you get to no downtime - the more expensive the migration. (roughly) 1 week of downtime -- migration costs $15,000 1 weekend of downtime -- migration costs $50,000 1 day of downtime -- migration costs $100,000 1 hour of downtime -- migration costs $200,000 1 minute of downtime -- migration costs $300,000 I know of very few (probably none) -- that when presented with the costs of an upgrade like this - that they would choose the 1 minute of downtime. (Most would fall in the weekend space) Also - I would imagine... If they presented to their company that we could either 1) Upgrade over a weekend (60 hrs) - at a cost of $50,000 or 2) Upgrade and only be down (1 hrs) - at a cost of $200,000 99% would go for the #1 option -- and complain about that cost too. Hey - the formula might just be: (Roughly) Cost = $10,000 / % of the day down. -John On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 12:06 AM, Joe D'Souza jdso...@shyle.net wrote: Within certain limits though. I would not go that far to claim to the customer/management that there will be absolutely no down time during code migration. There will be. By taking servers on and off a server group, to upgrade core system versions, yes that can be done with 'minimal' down time. But the migration and code upgrade, takes as much down time as the migration of the code itself takes. Even if you stand up a completely new parallel system, and then decide a switch by mirroring a database, there still will be that minimal time required to port the delta data. Personally I think it is not possible to completely eliminate downtime if your system is significantly large. Its like approaching infinity in mathematics - you can get close, but you can never get there. You just got to be content you got close enough.. Cheers Joe -Original Message- From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList) [mailto:arslist@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of Zandi Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2014 6:49 AM To: arslist@ARSLIST.ORG Subject: Re: BMC Remedy and Flash 24/7 is already there... It is called server groups, if you implement this would can take a server down and the others will takeover while it is being patched. You will need a load balancer as well. This also allows for larger system use as well My 2 cents Sent from my iPhone On Mar 17, 2014, at 3:12 PM, James Smith bmcremedyarslis...@gmail.com wrote: Nice info Doug, thanks for sharing. Want to add 2 cents if its considered then its of great use. Currently we have windows based tools for development activities and data migration like Developer studio and Import tool. Will it be feasible to make then available over web? One more thing, how can we make remedy to be available 24*7 during upgrades as well - zero downtime upgrades. This will help the product to compete in the market. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at www.arslist.org Where the Answers Are, and have been for 20 years -- *John Sundberg* Kinetic Data, Inc. Your Business. Your Process. 651-556-0930 I john.sundb...@kineticdata.com www.kineticdata.com I community.kineticdata.com ___ UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at www.arslist.org Where the Answers Are, and have been for 20 years
Re: BMC Remedy and Flash
Within certain limits though. I would not go that far to claim to the customer/management that there will be absolutely no down time during code migration. There will be. By taking servers on and off a server group, to upgrade core system versions, yes that can be done with 'minimal' down time. But the migration and code upgrade, takes as much down time as the migration of the code itself takes. Even if you stand up a completely new parallel system, and then decide a switch by mirroring a database, there still will be that minimal time required to port the delta data. Personally I think it is not possible to completely eliminate downtime if your system is significantly large. Its like approaching infinity in mathematics - you can get close, but you can never get there. You just got to be content you got close enough.. Cheers Joe -Original Message- From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList) [mailto:arslist@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of Zandi Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2014 6:49 AM To: arslist@ARSLIST.ORG Subject: Re: BMC Remedy and Flash 24/7 is already there... It is called server groups, if you implement this would can take a server down and the others will takeover while it is being patched. You will need a load balancer as well. This also allows for larger system use as well My 2 cents Sent from my iPhone On Mar 17, 2014, at 3:12 PM, James Smith bmcremedyarslis...@gmail.com wrote: Nice info Doug, thanks for sharing. Want to add 2 cents if its considered then its of great use. Currently we have windows based tools for development activities and data migration like Developer studio and Import tool. Will it be feasible to make then available over web? One more thing, how can we make remedy to be available 24*7 during upgrades as well - zero downtime upgrades. This will help the product to compete in the market. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at www.arslist.org Where the Answers Are, and have been for 20 years
Re: BMC Remedy and Flash
And James, if you're referring to the zero-downtime upgrade that's been talked about and demonstrated as a POC by BMC, that's scheduled for a future release. We hope that means the next one, but that's still TBD. Rick On Tue, Mar 18, 2014 at 3:49 AM, Zandi remedy...@gmail.com wrote: 24/7 is already there... It is called server groups, if you implement this would can take a server down and the others will takeover while it is being patched. You will need a load balancer as well. This also allows for larger system use as well My 2 cents Sent from my iPhone On Mar 17, 2014, at 3:12 PM, James Smith bmcremedyarslis...@gmail.com wrote: Nice info Doug, thanks for sharing. Want to add 2 cents if its considered then its of great use. Currently we have windows based tools for development activities and data migration like Developer studio and Import tool. Will it be feasible to make then available over web? One more thing, how can we make remedy to be available 24*7 during upgrades as well - zero downtime upgrades. This will help the product to compete in the market. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at www.arslist.org Where the Answers Are, and have been for 20 years ___ UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at www.arslist.org Where the Answers Are, and have been for 20 years ___ UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at www.arslist.org Where the Answers Are, and have been for 20 years
Re: BMC Remedy and Flash
I never heard that it was scheduled to be included in a release. On Mar 19, 2014 8:32 PM, Rick Cook remedyr...@gmail.com wrote: ** And James, if you're referring to the zero-downtime upgrade that's been talked about and demonstrated as a POC by BMC, that's scheduled for a future release. We hope that means the next one, but that's still TBD. Rick On Tue, Mar 18, 2014 at 3:49 AM, Zandi remedy...@gmail.com wrote: 24/7 is already there... It is called server groups, if you implement this would can take a server down and the others will takeover while it is being patched. You will need a load balancer as well. This also allows for larger system use as well My 2 cents Sent from my iPhone On Mar 17, 2014, at 3:12 PM, James Smith bmcremedyarslis...@gmail.com wrote: Nice info Doug, thanks for sharing. Want to add 2 cents if its considered then its of great use. Currently we have windows based tools for development activities and data migration like Developer studio and Import tool. Will it be feasible to make then available over web? One more thing, how can we make remedy to be available 24*7 during upgrades as well - zero downtime upgrades. This will help the product to compete in the market. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at www.arslist.org Where the Answers Are, and have been for 20 years ___ UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at www.arslist.org Where the Answers Are, and have been for 20 years _ARSlist: Where the Answers Are and have been for 20 years_ ___ UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at www.arslist.org Where the Answers Are, and have been for 20 years
Re: BMC Remedy and Flash
Wait I thought upgrades are free? You mean there is a cost? (sarcastically stated after doing a .1 rev upgrade recently that probably cost way too much over the course of a few months but we'll never know because it was all done without paying an external firm and therefore free) On Mar 19, 2014 7:32 PM, John Sundberg john.sundb...@kineticdata.com wrote: ** Joe, I agree. Also - it is like this ... the closer you get to no downtime - the more expensive the migration. (roughly) 1 week of downtime -- migration costs $15,000 1 weekend of downtime -- migration costs $50,000 1 day of downtime -- migration costs $100,000 1 hour of downtime -- migration costs $200,000 1 minute of downtime -- migration costs $300,000 I know of very few (probably none) -- that when presented with the costs of an upgrade like this - that they would choose the 1 minute of downtime. (Most would fall in the weekend space) Also - I would imagine... If they presented to their company that we could either 1) Upgrade over a weekend (60 hrs) - at a cost of $50,000 or 2) Upgrade and only be down (1 hrs) - at a cost of $200,000 99% would go for the #1 option -- and complain about that cost too. Hey - the formula might just be: (Roughly) Cost = $10,000 / % of the day down. -John On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 12:06 AM, Joe D'Souza jdso...@shyle.net wrote: Within certain limits though. I would not go that far to claim to the customer/management that there will be absolutely no down time during code migration. There will be. By taking servers on and off a server group, to upgrade core system versions, yes that can be done with 'minimal' down time. But the migration and code upgrade, takes as much down time as the migration of the code itself takes. Even if you stand up a completely new parallel system, and then decide a switch by mirroring a database, there still will be that minimal time required to port the delta data. Personally I think it is not possible to completely eliminate downtime if your system is significantly large. Its like approaching infinity in mathematics - you can get close, but you can never get there. You just got to be content you got close enough.. Cheers Joe -Original Message- From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList) [mailto:arslist@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of Zandi Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2014 6:49 AM To: arslist@ARSLIST.ORG Subject: Re: BMC Remedy and Flash 24/7 is already there... It is called server groups, if you implement this would can take a server down and the others will takeover while it is being patched. You will need a load balancer as well. This also allows for larger system use as well My 2 cents Sent from my iPhone On Mar 17, 2014, at 3:12 PM, James Smith bmcremedyarslis...@gmail.com wrote: Nice info Doug, thanks for sharing. Want to add 2 cents if its considered then its of great use. Currently we have windows based tools for development activities and data migration like Developer studio and Import tool. Will it be feasible to make then available over web? One more thing, how can we make remedy to be available 24*7 during upgrades as well - zero downtime upgrades. This will help the product to compete in the market. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at www.arslist.org Where the Answers Are, and have been for 20 years -- *John Sundberg* Kinetic Data, Inc. Your Business. Your Process. 651-556-0930 I john.sundb...@kineticdata.com www.kineticdata.com I community.kineticdata.com _ARSlist: Where the Answers Are and have been for 20 years_ ___ UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at www.arslist.org Where the Answers Are, and have been for 20 years
Re: BMC Remedy and Flash
24/7 is already there... It is called server groups, if you implement this would can take a server down and the others will takeover while it is being patched. You will need a load balancer as well. This also allows for larger system use as well My 2 cents Sent from my iPhone On Mar 17, 2014, at 3:12 PM, James Smith bmcremedyarslis...@gmail.com wrote: Nice info Doug, thanks for sharing. Want to add 2 cents if its considered then its of great use. Currently we have windows based tools for development activities and data migration like Developer studio and Import tool. Will it be feasible to make then available over web? One more thing, how can we make remedy to be available 24*7 during upgrades as well - zero downtime upgrades. This will help the product to compete in the market. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at www.arslist.org Where the Answers Are, and have been for 20 years ___ UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at www.arslist.org Where the Answers Are, and have been for 20 years
Re: BMC Remedy and Flash
Nice info Doug, thanks for sharing. Want to add 2 cents if its considered then its of great use. Currently we have windows based tools for development activities and data migration like Developer studio and Import tool. Will it be feasible to make then available over web? One more thing, how can we make remedy to be available 24*7 during upgrades as well - zero downtime upgrades. This will help the product to compete in the market. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at www.arslist.org Where the Answers Are, and have been for 20 years
BMC Remedy and Flash
Everyone, I thought that rather than using the thread that took a left turn into Flash, that I would start a new thread that focused on that issue to address some of the topics and discussion that has come up around the use of Flash technology. There are a number of places within the product where Flash technology has been used. This includes the browser display when using IE, Flashboards, Calendar widget, Atrium Explorer, and the CMDB console screens. There are a variety of reasons - from good ones to kind of questionable ones - for the use of the technology in each of these situations. Now, there are some challenges with the use of Flash when you talk about display on some types of devices and with the overhead in some uses. BMC made the decision several years ago to move away from Flash as a technology to use within BMC Remedy components. So, you will see that there has been no increase in use of Flash over that time and there will be no new use going forward. In addition, we have made progress in moving away from the use of Flash in some areas - with some still to go. IE - With the 8.1 mid-tier, there is no longer any use of Flash technology for the mid-tier when using IE. There never was use of this technology for the mid-tier display with any other browser, but there were several features - rounded corners on fields being one - where the support was not present in IE and Flash provided that support. Prior to 8.1, the use of flash could be disabled with a configuration setting. The product worked, but some screen prettiness was lost. With 8.1, no functionality depends on or uses Flash on any browser. Status: No Flash used from 8.1 forward - config setting to not use prior to 8.1 Flashboards - Originally, Flashboards was implemented with a graphic library that did not use Flash. Later we added an implementation that uses Flash to give more polished graphs and features like gradient colors. The product has always had an option to configure the system to use the original library and not use Flash if the customer chooses. You do lose some level of polish on the charts, but you can eliminate use of Flash Status: Flash still used for now for polished Flashboards - config setting to not use Flash is available Calendar widget - The calendar widget of Change Management was originally written in Flash. The new calendar with significantly more functionality that is shipped with the 8.1 release does not use Flash. Status: No Flash used from 8.1 forward. Is used prior to 8.1 ITSM release. Atrium Explorer - Atrium Explorer is written in Flash and continues to use Flash at this point. Status: Flash is used. CMDB Consoles - The main CMDB consoles used by CMDB administrators are written in Flash. The forms used by users are not in Flash but are standard AR system forms. Status: Flash is used for these consoles. The direction and intention of BMC is to continue to move away from using Flash. The only area of the BMC Remedy product line still requiring Flash is the CMDB - consoles and Atrium Explorer. There are long term plans to move both of these away from that technology so that no part of the product requires Flash. I hope this helps to define where Flash has been and is currently used within the BMC Remedy product and what the current state of the use of that technology is and where it has been removed or where there are options to disable its use. We do believe that HTML/DHTML/and the related technologies are the direction forward and those are the technologies that we will be implementing (and converting remaining pieces to) as we go forward. Doug Mueller ___ UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at www.arslist.org Where the Answers Are, and have been for 20 years
