Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] LP-Digital Conversion?
ezkcdude;442755 Wrote: I'd prefer to do 24/96. Any particular reason why? The signal that comes off even the finest quality LP pressed on heavyweight virgin vinyl has a dynamic range of no more than 70dB, and that's on a good day with a following wind. That equates to less than 12 bits of resolution. And while some LPs do produce some kind of output above 22kHz, its almost completely noise and distortion, so sampling rates above 44.1kHz are pointless. There are some seemingly plausible arguments for using higher recording resolutions: 1. If you're going to do any kind of restoration in software using DSP, then recording at 24 bit avoids the danger of rounding errors accumulating and infecting the low level detail. But since the surface noise from an LP is orders of magnitude greater than even a 16 bit noise floor, you'd have to do dozens of DSP operations before there is any danger that these errors will be audible above the vinyl noise. 2. Some people think that declickers will have an easier time detecting clicks if they have higher frequencies to work with (the rise times will be sharper) and hence believe higher sample rates are worthwhile. I am skeptical: most clicks from vinyl LPs are wideband artefacts, covering the entire frequency spectrum. They are just as detectable whether you're looking at 0-22kHz or 0-48kHz. Any glitches that are only present above 22kHz won't be audible anyway, so there's no need to fix them. (And of course by recording at 44.1, they won't even be recorded). One may well argue that it can't hurt to record at higher resolutions - all it does is consume a bit more disk space, which is cheap. But the downside to working at high resolution is that there are a number of useful software tools around which only work at 16/44. Recording at high resolution denies you access to these tools, while not actually increasing quality at all. (NB. If you are in the loony camp that believes LPs really do have better resolution than 16/44 PCM and deserve high res recording, then I'm afraid there is probably nothing I can do to persuade you otherwise). ezkcdude;442755 Wrote: What turntables are good? Look for manual turntables without any automatic facilities. Belt drive and direct drive are equally satisfactory provided you get a good one. Good turntables are not cheap. You'll get better quality for your money if you buy secondhand and have a specialist give it the once-over. If you're looking for brand names of worthwhile turntables, here are a few: Rega, Dual, Linn, Oracle, Mitchell, Thorens, plus the top-end models from Japanese manufacturers such as Technics and Denon. There are plenty of others. ezkcdude;442755 Wrote: Are any of the USB turntables decent? Absolutely not. They are almost universally cheap and nasty devices with poor quality pickup arms, questionable A/D converters and non-adjustable recording levels. ezkcdude;442755 Wrote: I have an iMac. Anyone here have suggestions for that, too? Sorry, I'm Windows based. From what I've heard, the built-in audio inputs on Macs tend to be fairly decent quality, so start off recording using those. If you feel they are not up to snuff, go for a decent external USB audio interface from the likes of EMU and M-Audio. (Echo Audio also do nice devices, but they are Firewire - do Macs still have Firewire or has Mr Jobs now fully embraced the dark side?) I've been digitising LPs since 1994, and have written up some notes that you might find helpful: http://delback.co.uk/lp-cdr.htm -- cliveb Transporter - ATC SCM100A cliveb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=348 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=65876 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] LP-Digital Conversion?
Thanks, clive! Ton of good comments to mull over. -- ezkcdude There are 10 kind of people in the world - those who understand binary and those who don't. SHINYMETAL '*Site*' (http://www.ezdiyaudio.com)| '*RSS*' (http://www2.kumc.edu/students/ezamir/rss/ezdiyaudio.xml) |'*Forum*' (http://ezdiyaudio.informe.com) ezkcdude's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2545 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=65876 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Transporter to pre- or poweramp
A poll associated with this post was created, to vote and see the results, please visit http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=64028 Question: To what is your Transporter connected - Preamp - Poweramp ghostrider;428797 Wrote: My system is bi-amped and a pre is my only option. The transporter's outputs will drive a 600 ohms load effortlessly. Splitters on the output connectors is a very good solution if you are bi- or triamping. (If you're in cable cuckoo-land it might be expensive, but you shouldn't be there anyway.) -- Valentino Valentino's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15986 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=64028 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] LP-Digital Conversion?
I certainly can't compete with cliveb's excellent help page, but here's how I work (with a Mac). The output from my Michell Gyro SE/Tecnoarm/G1042/Graham Slee Era V Gold phono stage goes into a Sugden Headmaster (for headphone listening) and then out to the amp. The pre-out from the Headmaster connects to an M-Audio Transit USB device that I connect to a MacBook running Audacity. I've taken to recording at 48Khz/24bit (so am only partially loony!). Once an LP has been captured - usually as one large wave file, I transfer this to a Mac Mini desktop running Apple's Soundtrack Pro. Being somewhat masochistic I do all the click removal manually by redrawing the samples - identifying visually the worst offenders. I'm not obsessive about surface noise - though in the past I have used DCart on a PC, with moderate success at times. Once the waveform is cleaned up, it's a simple - though time consuming process to cut and paste tracks to a new wave file, top and tail them (adding a fade in/out so surface noise ramps in and out) and save them before converting to Flac, tagging, and adding to Squeezecenter. I know there are tools that can automate some (or maybe all) of this, but I don't feel the need to use these . . Two things strike me as being really important: use the best quality source components you can afford, and when making the initial recording set the levels so the signal peaks just under 0db. If it's consistently over you'll get a loudness wars type result, and if too far under there'll be a need to normalise the waveform upwards; only do this on waves containing the complete LP or else you'll destroy the levels between tracks. I try not to normalise at all. As a very rough guide, the processing takes about twice as long as actually recording it - if there's only moderate click removal needed. Each LP-rip is a labour of love, and visitors hearing Flac playback of the files often don't believe they're from old-fashioned vinyl . . . -- morris_minor Living Room: Transporter Study: Receiver Kitchen: Boom Son's Bedroom: Classic iPeng on an iPhone, 2 x Controllers Server: TranquilPC T2-WHS-A3i SC 7.2.1 - 23630 - - - - http://www.last.fm/user/morris_minor_1 morris_minor's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13950 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=65876 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] LP-Digital Conversion?
The EMU USB devices work very well on PC. I use an EMU0202 myself - wish I'd bought the 0404 now as it does a bit more (S/PDIF in/out). I believe the EMU stuff will also work on Mac, but will not support 24/192. As Clive has said, avoid USB TT's - generally they are not good, either mechanically or electronically. The only one I've spotted anywhere that may be any good is this one http://www.henleydesigns.co.uk/product.asp?shop=0ProductID=443 . Chris :) -- Stratmangler Stratmangler's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=20387 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=65876 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] LP-Digital Conversion?
Stratmangler;442806 Wrote: I believe the EMU stuff will also work on Mac, but will not support 24/192. I mean that it will support 24/192 on PC, but only 24/96 on Mac. Just thought I'd clarify the point. Chris :) -- Stratmangler Stratmangler's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=20387 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=65876 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] LP-Digital Conversion?
morris_minor;442796 Wrote: Two things strike me as being really important: use the best quality source components you can afford Definitely. The best transfers start with good analogue playback. Stuff lost at this stage can't be recovered in software. Something else I'd add: clean the LP properly. Ideally use a vacuum device such as a Nitty Gritty, VPI or Moth (although given their cost I appreciate this isn't practical for many people). I'd say if you're planning to transfer more than 100 LPs or so, a vacuum record cleaner is a worthwhile investment. Otherwise do the best you can with brushes, cleaning solutions, and LOTS of distilled water for rinsing. morris_minor;442796 Wrote: and when making the initial recording set the levels so the signal peaks just under 0db. If it's consistently over you'll get a loudness wars type result It's not that it shouldn't consistently go over: you should NEVER allow the recording level to exceed 0dB. Clipping just isn't acceptable. Don't let it happen. -- cliveb Transporter - ATC SCM100A cliveb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=348 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=65876 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] LP-Digital Conversion?
cliveb wrote: Good turntables are not cheap. You'll get better quality for your money [other great stuff elided] One more point, the conversion takes a long time. I used a very good turntable with a new cartridge (the rubber in the support mechanism tends to die because of ozone in the air, etc.) into pro-audio ADC. I was happy with the sound, but not how long it took. After cleaning the record and needle I'd record it. If I was lucky, I'd have the right gain staging and have no clipping (the only real reason for recording at 24bit sample width, IMHO). Then I'd have to listen to the recording, and split the side into tunes, name the tunes, and save the file down to redbook standards. So a 45 minute LP would take about three hours. I decided that if the album was available in CD for under $10, it was better use of my time and money to just buy the CD. Clearly for out of print stuff, and I have a fair amount of that, you have to do the transfer -- Pat Farrell http://www.pfarrell.com/ ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] LP-Digital Conversion?
cliveb;442768 Wrote: Any particular reason why? The signal that comes off even the finest quality LP pressed on heavyweight virgin vinyl has a dynamic range of no more than 70dB, and that's on a good day with a following wind. This statement oversimplifies the situation. For some actual measurements, see http://www.audioholics.com/education/audio-formats-technology/dynamic-comparison-of-lps-vs-cds-part-4/dynamic-comparison-of-lps-vs-cds-part-4-page-2 My personal tests with LP ripping and bit depth showed that the difference between 16 and 24 bits was easily audible. (And no, my tests weren't double blind). Regards, Kim -- krochat -- Acourate - Inguz DSP - SB3 - GW Labs DSP (96kHz upsampler) - Apogee Big Ben - TacT RCS 2.2X - 2x TacT S2150 - Vandersteen 3a Signature + TacT W210 krochat's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=6579 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=65876 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Transporter Versions?
My Transporter would be the second to last to go if I had to sell stuff. My Merdian DSP-6000's would be the last to go :). -- mswlogo XP Cat5 Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 XP Cat5 SB3 SPDIF Meridian DSP5000 XP Cat5 DuetReceiver SPDIF Meridian G91 DSP5000 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=65745 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Transporter Versions?
Maybe when 192/24 becomes the norm...but I also see no reason to bring out a new unit yet...it still works brilliantly...and exceedingly well at that. There are very few things in my life that I treasure more... -- Keymaster Keymaster's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=30281 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=65745 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Superiority of Toslink?
I am astonished by how much better my SB sounds when using a glass Toslink cable instead of a 75 ohm interconnect. Anyone else experienced this? If you have never tried Toslink with your SB I highly recommend you give it a try. -- mac Squeezebox 3 - Entech Number Cruncher (modified) - Musical Fidelity X-10 V3 Teres Turntable - ET2 - DV 20XL - Jensen transformers - Hagerman Cornet NHT X*d* 2.2 mac's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=932 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=65893 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] LP-Digital Conversion?
Another reason to actually record 24bit is that rumble clicks and pops from the vinyl can have magnitudes higher level than the music itself thus making digital clipping and such. Once you removed this you can probably go back to 16bit. Btw was it not so that cheap phono stages with insufficient overload margins a slow settling times makes clicks worse ? A vinyl, I sold all of mine :/ i would love to have one of those old micro seiki turntables http://my-micro.de/rx1500vg.htm -- Mnyb Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=65876 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
