[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: sound stage width
For enveloping sound effects coming out of only two speakers you could try (text pasted from the SlimServer page): 6. Speedway (Theme From Fastlane) from Music For The Jilted Generation by Prodigy Caveat: Since I don't listen in an anechoic room I can't say for sure that the effects will remain in such an environmet, although it seems likely. Rgds -- P Floding P Floding's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2932 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31050 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: sound stage width
I have a DFI Lan Party nF4 Ultra D mother board that uses something called a Karajan audio module. It has a Realtek ALC850 chip set. Looking here: http://www.realtek.com.tw/products/productsView.aspx?Langid=1PFid=31Level=5Conn=4ProdID=59 indicates that it does indeed run at 48 ksps. Further digging led me to this review: http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/DFI/LPNF4UD/13 It looks like the freq response sucks at both the high and low end of the spectrum, which correlates with some of what I am hearing. I'll keep messing with it to see if I can get a decent recording. TD -- tyler_durden tyler_durden's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2701 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31050 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: sound stage width
Regarding soundstage width i was talking about a sample that has something special in another thread. I uploaded a 14sec. sample here. http://rapidshare.com/files/10059048/06.__T_aint_No_Sin_-_Sample.zip.html It should be enough to judge it and should be on the total legal side to offer. -- Wombat Wombat's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4113 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31050 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: sound stage width
There is a little trick for identifying early reflection points using a mirror. If the mirror is between the listening seat and the speakers on the wall/floor/ceiling, and you can see the speaker in the mirror while in the seat, that is an early reflection point and a place you should put treatments. -- Skunk Skunk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2685 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31050 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: sound stage width
The Ambiophonics site has some apps filters you can play with to create a very wide soundstage. If you like moving speakers and experimenting, it's well worth a try. (http://ambiophonics.org/Ambiofiles.htm) -- inguz inguz's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1139 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31050 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: sound stage width
I've got the loop-through on my sound card working. I play a .flac file in foobar, send it through the C9, then record the result with Audacity. I export the result as a .wav file then run flac to compress it. I play back using my SB3 and it doesn't sound right. I think there is some problem with Audacity. Right now I am running under windoze. I'll try running audacity under linux and see if the result improves. If that doesn't fix the problem, I'll dig out a CD player and dump it's analog out into the C9 and see where that gets me. Maybe simultaneous playback and record are too much to ask of my sound card... TD -- tyler_durden tyler_durden's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2701 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31050 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: sound stage width
tyler_durden wrote: I've got the loop-through on my sound card working. I play a .flac file in foobar, send it through the C9, then record the result with Audacity. I export the result as a .wav file then run flac to compress it. I play back using my SB3 and it doesn't sound right. I think there is some problem with Audacity. Right now I am running under windoze. I'll try running audacity under linux and see if the result improves. If that doesn't fix the problem, I'll dig out a CD player and dump it's analog out into the C9 and see where that gets me. Maybe simultaneous playback and record are too much to ask of my sound card... Some sound cards, especially many from Creative Labs silently run at 48kHZ rather than 44.1kHz. You may want to verify that it is really running straight, rather than sample rate converting. Are the two FLAC files identical? That should give you a hint, or skip one Flac to wave conversion, flac the file to WAV/PCM play that, and record it back as a wave. In theory, it should be the same. I would not expect it to be. If you send it out as 24 bit expanded from 16 (all zero in low order bits), capture as 24 bit, and throw away the low order bits, there is a chance it will be identical. You'd probably have to do nice dithering to get it close. -- Pat http://www.pfarrell.com/music/slimserver/slimsoftware.html ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: sound stage width
The effect of using a speaker cross-talk canceller is critically dependent on room reflections, and the way the audio is recorded/mixed, but so is normal stereo listening. That is why speakers and the room make up 9X% of the sound you get from your stereo, and the source, amp, and cables make up such a small part of it. Few realize this simple fact and spend vast sums of money trying to find cables, wood pucks, magic stones, vibration dampers, and etc., to correct problems that could be fixed by a few simple and cheap-to-make absorbers judiciously placed in the listening room, or even simple movement of the speakers by a few inches. Someone posted a photo of their system with a large screen TV between the speakers and a hard floor under them. Try the live-end/dead-end approach- get that big reflector (the TV) out from between the speakers, hang some carpet on the wall behind the speakers and carpet the floor and see how much better things sound. There is nothing you can do with cables, or CD players, or vibration dampers that will come close to the results you'll get by proper room treatment and speaker placement. If people are interested I can record a few songs looped through my C-9, switching it on and off and post it to a web page for DL so you can play it back and try it out. It will have to be digitized by my sound card which isn't top of the line, but you'll still get the flavor of what crosstalk cancellation can do. TD -- tyler_durden tyler_durden's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2701 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31050 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: sound stage width
tyler_durden;166390 Wrote: ...If people are interested I can record a few songs looped through my C-9, switching it on and off and post it to a web page for DL so you can play it back and try it out. It will have to be digitized by my sound card which isn't top of the line, but you'll still get the flavor of what crosstalk cancellation can do. TD Tyler this is really interesting stuff. I would certainly be interested in downloading and listening to the recordings you are proposing... -- NewBuyer NewBuyer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7862 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31050 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: sound stage width
NewBuyer;166426 Wrote: Tyler this is really interesting stuff. The thing I believe that keeps most people from trying the absorbers idea, is a complete lack of knowledge of what they are, what product specifically to buy, where to place them, etc (speaking only from my own experience here). I would certainly also be interested in downloading and listening to the recordings you are proposing I've been messing with the recording process. Under Linux, for some reason, I can only get audio through 1 channel in record mode. Under windoze I can only record for 1 minute using the windoze sound recorder. I'll look for and DL some better recording software and get to work on it. Sound absorption isn't rocket science. Cover that back wall with a piece of carpet hung a few inches off the wall. It will kill almost all reflections that make a difference. Same with the floor. You don't have to go out and buy special sound absorbing materials. Tapestries have high WAF and work fine. Carpet remnants and scraps can be bought for $1 per yard. Get hard surfaces like TVs and coffee tables away from the center of the speakers. Move that stuff elsewhere. The special sound absorbing stuff is usually foam and polyester batting that you can make yourself a lot cheaper than you can buy it. If you want to go nuts with it, make a wood frame. Staple some burlap on the back side. Fill it with foam/polyester, then staple some nice looking cloth on the front side. Hang it or lean it against the wall. Killing early reflections (from hard surfaces near the speakers) is the main thing to do. Look at the room, if the side walls are close to the speakers, put some carpet there, too. At the listening position end of the room, you let the reflections happen, however, you don't want your head too close to a reflecting wall. Try to get the listener into the middle of the room, away from the walls. You can do all this stuff a little at a time, and move furniture around until you're satisfied. Cost is low. Result is large. Much larger than anything you'll get by changing a cable, an amplifier, or even upgrading your CD player. TD -- tyler_durden tyler_durden's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2701 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31050 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: sound stage width
Thank you Tyler! This is great information, I will try it all, and I really appreciate it. P.S. Happy New Year! -- NewBuyer NewBuyer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7862 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31050 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: sound stage width
This is all interesting. However, the picture I'm getting here is that these kinds of recordings are the exception, not the rule. Moreover, it has to do with a perceptual trick and not the actual physics of how point source sound waves hit your ears. Still, I was unaware of these recording techniques and will seek out some of the recommendations. Again, in my experience, and from what i have learned, the rule and not the exception is that good stereo imaging pretty much happens between the speakers. The stuff you beyond that is artifice (as above) or reflection. This leads to one obvious question: how to judge, given specs, how a particular speaker, in a particular (generic) room will handle such recordings. I would imagine that the speaker and not the electronics is paramount is achieving the effect. Happy New Year from way down south! -- lafayette Sweet Home Alabama lafayette's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9022 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31050 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: sound stage width
lafayette;166146 Wrote: This is all interesting. However, the picture I'm getting here is that these kinds of recordings are the exception, not the rule. Moreover, it has to do with a perceptual trick and not the actual physics of how point source sound waves hit your ears. But Stereo itself is a perceptual trick. -- snarlydwarf snarlydwarf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1179 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31050 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: sound stage width
lafayette wrote: This is all interesting. However, the picture I'm getting here is that these kinds of recordings are the exception, not the rule. Moreover, it has to do with a perceptual trick and not the actual physics of how point source sound waves hit your ears. Snarly beat me to it, all stereo is a perceptual trick. And there are nearly no point sources in the world. Look at an acoustic guitar. You get sound from the fingerboard, body, strings themselves, sound hole, etc. The body radiates different sounds from the front, sides, and back. Phase is how humans hear. It is critical to identifying location, it is how we knew where the lion was. Phase is not talked about a lot because it is hard to get right This leads to one obvious question: how to judge, given specs, how a particular speaker, in a particular (generic) room will handle such recordings. I would imagine that the speaker and not the electronics is paramount is achieving the effect. You can't judge speakers by specs. You have to listen to them. You should listen to them in your room. Or at least a room like where you will be listening. You need to listen to music that you know and like. Getting the phase right is what Quad ESLs and Maggies do right. Getting it nearly right is what mini-monitors do much better than full range speakers. But neither mini-monitors nor flat panels can deliver much bass, or have the bass be seamless with the mid-bass on up. I think one or two of the uber expensive speakers, like the $50,000 PipeDreams are reviewed to have both imaging and continuousness, but they are way out of my budget and flunk WAF too much for me to even find a dealer to listen to them. You pays your money and you makes your choices. -- Pat Farrell [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.bioinformatx.com ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: sound stage width
lafayette;166146 Wrote: ..in my experience, and from what i have learned, the rule and not the exception is that good stereo imaging pretty much happens between the speakers. The stuff you beyond that is artifice (as above) or reflection. But (to augment SnarlyDwarf's and Pat Farell's responses still further), it is all artifice - every bit of it, the whole shebang, from musician to speakers. What is music, if not artifice? And that's before you go anywhere near the Black Stereophonic Arts. This is no more artifice than any of the other tricks practised in the attempt to create perfection in an imperfect world, to restore Nature to what it was as somebody wrote 400 years ago. If we all wanted to eschew artifice, we'd be sitting in fields and listening to blackbirds, not in padded cells to loud amplified noises. (Although one might be drawn while there to reflect that even that isn't such certain advice as would have been thought a few years ago, given all we've found out in the last few years about the individuality and practiced skills inherent in birdsong). Anyway, enough of the metaphysical ramblings. A Happy and prosperous New Year to all! -- geraint smith geraint smith's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=625 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31050 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: sound stage width
lafayette, This phenomena requires the preservation of phase coherence. You are quite right that the reflections coming from objects in and walls of the room will diminish or destroy the regular stereo, as well as this interesting phase, effect. Air's Carmel Prisoner on the album 10,000 Hz Legend is another great example with a tone near the end that sounds like it circles your head. -- The Smokester The Smokester's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9198 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31050 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: sound stage width
Pat Farrell;165528 Wrote: Pot, hemp, weed, MJ, Acapulco Gold, etc. OH. You mean... (looks around furtively)... -Mary Jane!- -- Mike Anderson 'FREE RADICAL RADIO!' (http://nvo.com/cd) Hours of free radical MP3s. Mike Anderson's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1705 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31050 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: sound stage width
Behringer made a 1U rack box called the Edison that let you manipulate width and depth - it was fun...with practice you could whirl a track (within a mix) around the listener -- Phil Leigh Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31050 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: sound stage width
Here's some good stuff on 3D sound fields. There is some good stuff on loudspeaker crosstalk cancellation. http://www.jvrb.org/3.2006/589 TD -- tyler_durden tyler_durden's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2701 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31050 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: sound stage width
grasshead? -- JJZolx Jim JJZolx's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31050 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: sound stage width
pothead, i think he means Though for fun stereo abuse, The Residents' High Horses (a simulation of taking LSD in Golden Gate Park by the Carousel) takes the cake. Though it isnt technically correct: they were trying to get the sound of going -around- the carousel mechanism, but it is more like the carousel mechanism goes around the listener... But a fun album for abusing the stereo auditory illusion. (Shameless plug: High Horses will be rereleased on Best Left Unspoken Volume 2 due out any day now from Ralph America.) I'll shut up now. -- snarlydwarf snarlydwarf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1179 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31050 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: sound stage width
JJZolx;165525 Wrote: Too funny. I wasnt kidding. :P http://residents.com/C1016472556/E20061214071458/index.html http://residents.com/bh/HIGHH.htm -- snarlydwarf snarlydwarf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1179 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31050 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: sound stage width
JJZolx wrote: grasshead? Pot, hemp, weed, MJ, Acapulco Gold, etc. Not that I'd know anything about that kinda stuff. -- Pat Farrell PRC recording studio http://www.pfarrell.com/PRC ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: sound stage width
I think Pink Floyd's A Momentary Lapse of Reason is recorded in Q sound. You can get a similar effect from nearly any stereo source by using a speaker cross-talk canceller such as the Carver C-9 sonic hologram generator, or any of a number of similar devices that you can build yourself with a few opamps. You invert the phase and mix some of the left channel into the right and vice-versa. It is also best to add a little delay to the phase inverted signals to compensate for the difference in path lengths between the ears and the speakers (the left speaker sound path to the left ear is shorter than the path to the right ear, etc.). The idea is that the right channel crossfeed signal from the left speaker arrives at your left ear at exactly the same time but opposite phase as the true right channel speaker signal. The two cancel so the left ear mainly hears the sound from the left speaker and the right ear mainly hears the sound from the right speaker. The timing is critical, so there is a very small sweetspot and position of the speakers and listener in the room are critical, but it is really mind-blowing when it works. TD -- tyler_durden tyler_durden's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2701 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31050 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
