Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Idiots guide to FLAC vs WAV vs MP3
Hi All, I don't think I really qualify as an audiophile - but I'm pretty certain that I can hear the difference between 128Kbps mp3 or aac files and a CD. As the bit rates go higher it gets harder for me to tell. I've recorded all of my CDs at 320Kbps/mp3. I've done a few LPs to wav - but it is just so darn convenient to use mp3 - and easier to move them around the 100mbps network in my house. Has anyone done a listening test between CD and 320Kbps MP3? Also, what do people think of the new Apple non-DRM AAC 256Kbps files that are now available (EMI only). At a minimum - at least it is a step in the right direction... Best Regards, Kevin -- kkitts kkitts's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1993 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=19976 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Idiots guide to FLAC vs WAV vs MP3
Heuer, To follow up, I did some testing yesterday. Starting from a 24/96K recording, I saved the same file in 16/44.1K, 16/48K, 24/48K, and 24/96K flac formats. I could tell the difference between 16 and 24 bits at 48K but going to 96K didn't produce any discernible improvement. 16/44.1K was nasty sounding, especially in low level passages, and it took longer to export out of Audacity, starting from the 24/96K project, and the ending file size wasn't much smaller than the 16/48K. So then it came down to choosing between 16 or 24 bits at 48K. 16 bits left some feeling of etching around some instruments that disappeared with 24 bits. There were also some very low level parts that were clearly cleaner and more natural sounding with 24 bits. So, the bottom line is that I will now be saving my files as 24/48K. At this point the files sound almost as good as playing the actual LP and they are close enough that trying to eke out that last incremental difference by going to 96K is not worth the extra storage and time required. It all depends on the person and the music systems being used. To my wife, who just wants background listening, they all sounded fine. Thanks, Steve -- sataylor56 sataylor56's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=11883 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=19976 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Idiots guide to FLAC vs WAV vs MP3
rick's cafe;77551 Wrote: Could someone give me a brief idiots guide to FLAC Ripping vs WAV vs MP3. I will be playing all my music on SB3 thru a Cambridge Audio 540R ... any advice or recommendations welcomed. Also on avg what is the file size for a CD ripped as FLAC vs the rest and what rippers do you recommend I use. thanks As I'm sure many have pointed out, lossless is the audiophile approach. That being said, high bitrate VBR MP3 sounds great on all but fairly pricey gear and saves a ton of disk space. So, my advice is to rip in lossless (FLAC), and convert to MP3 for other uses (iPod, PC, or other non-critical listening). The reason I say this is that disk space is cheap and once you encode in lossless, you never have to go through the mechanical process of doing the CD swaps in order to rip again. That's a big deal (I say that having ripped several thousand CDs though, and having to do it twice was what it took to convince me to go lossless). I also say convert to MP3 because almost everything can play it - FLAC is limited in some areas (i.e., WMP, MCE, iTunes - though many alternative players exist). I originally ripped in 192K back MP3 in the day because disk space wasn't that cheap relative to the size of my collection. Now it is...and plenty of utilities exist to do conversion to your favorite format of the day from FLAC. -- thomsens thomsens's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1352 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=19976 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Idiots guide to FLAC vs WAV vs MP3
i got a huge collection of vinyls that id like to make backups...my questions are... 1)gear needed to do this? 2) is my best bet flac or wav? 3) if it were flac over wav...what softaware would i use to import from the record player to my computer (mac)? 4) is this convenient to do if im going to use this collection for playback in a club? 5)what software is more convenient to use in the club? sorry for the inconvenience and for the rookie questions...just looking for feedback...so please anyone out there...let me know... e. -- eboy eboy's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=11879 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=19976 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Idiots guide to FLAC vs WAV vs MP3
Personally I use an e-mu 0202 USB ADC connected to the tape out of my pre-amp. http://www.emu.com/products/product.asp?category=610subcategory=611product=15186 If you want a quick an easy way of capturing the WAV and auto splitting into tracks the Spin It Again software is superb. http://www.acoustica.com/spinitagain/ You can use Audacity, Wavelab or Audition but expect a steep learning curve and a lot of time spent! If you want to remove clicks then Click Repair is king. http://wwwmaths.anu.edu.au/~briand/sound/ Pointless keeping the files in WAV format so I use Flacfrontend to encode to FLAC and MP3Tag to edit the tags. My preference is to record vinyl at 24/96 as I use a Transporter but if you are using an SB3 you may want to consider 24/48 or CD friendly 16/44.1 . But given it takes so long to do needle drops I figure you should go with the highest practical sample rate to keep the recordings future proof. You can always use Audacity to downsample if required but obviously you can't go the other way. -- Heuer Heuer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2543 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=19976 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Idiots guide to FLAC vs WAV vs MP3
I am using an Edirol UA-1EX to record at 24/96 with Audacity. I export the file as wav and then run ClickRepair on it. I then reload into Audacity and export as flac. I am playing these files via a couple of SqeezeBoxes on two different systems in my house. The whole process takes time but it sure works great! My question is, would I be better exporting at 48K vrs. 44.1K? I am saving my files as 16 bits and my thinking is that since 48K is exactly half the 96K original, it may produce better results than converting to the CD standard of 44.1K. I've already determined that the original recoding needs to be done at 24/96 instead of 16/44.1 to preserve as much of the sound of the LPs as possible. I also quickly dismissed saving the files as MP3s, even at 320Kb/s the sound quality is clearly inferior to the 16 bit flac files. I just haven't done any testing to compare 16 bit flac files between 44.1 and 48. Has anybody done this already or have an opinion on it? -- sataylor56 sataylor56's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=11883 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=19976 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Idiots guide to FLAC vs WAV vs MP3
Never personally compared the SQ difference between 44.1k and 48k but perceived wisdom does suggest that downsampling from 96 to 48 is cleaner than going to 44.1 becuase the former is half the frequency. If you are doing 16 bit anyway you might as well go for the CD friendly 16/44.1k rather than muck about with a hybrid 16/48. The only thing I would say is that in two years time technology will have moved very quickly (SB4, 1Tb HDD etc) you will be wondering why you did not save everything as 24/48 or 24/96. Takes a long time to re-rip all those albums and it will gnaw away at you thinking you are missing something! -- Heuer Heuer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2543 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=19976 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Idiots guide to FLAC vs WAV vs MP3
sataylor56;206893 Wrote: ... I export the file as wav and then run ClickRepair on it. I see we have two recommendations for ClickRepair. It is indeed one of the better auto declickers around, and has the advantage of being written in Java and therefore is available on other platforms as well as Windows. But there are other restoration tools which work well. The declicker in Adobe Audition is good, as is the Sony (formerly Sonic Foundry) Noise Reduction 2.0 plug-in. Another auto-declicker that is not well-known but which I feel gives good results is Wave Corrector. But the bottom line is that automatic declicking only does part of the job (and in some cases leads to audible artifacts). There are many types of vinyl glitch which can only be successfully fixed by careful hand editing using an audio editor. Unfortunately this is a tedious process and unless you're the sort who enjoys it as a pastime, it may well not be worth the effort. I'm confused by something else you say: sataylor56;206893 Wrote: I am saving my files as 16 bits... Whereas later you say: sataylor56;206893 Wrote: I've already determined that the original recoding needs to be done at 24/96 instead of 16/44.1 to preserve as much of the sound of the LPs as possible. I don't understand why you're saving at 16 bit if you feel that you need to record at 24 bit to capture the LP. As it happens, I strongly believe that 16 bit is more than adequate for LP recording. The noise floor of even the best LP is typically no better than -60dB below 200Hz, and although it improves at higher frequencies, it's never better than about -75dB. And I've never seen a phono preamp with a noise floor as low as -96dB. As for sample rate: while most LPs have some sort of signal above 20kHz, it's typically all noise and distortion. Indeed, most LP cutter heads have low pass filters to prevent exciting resonances. So most LPs have no programme material on them above about 18kHz. I've personally never found the need for higher sample rates that 44.1kHz. -- cliveb Transporter - ATC SCM100A cliveb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=348 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=19976 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Idiots guide to FLAC vs WAV vs MP3
sataylor56 wrote: I am using an Edirol UA-1EX to record at 24/96 with Audacity. Since your target is CD quality why not record at 24/88.1 Makes the down-sampling trivial -- Pat http://www.pfarrell.com/music/slimserver/slimsoftware.html ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Idiots guide to FLAC vs WAV vs MP3
Yes, my goal is CD quality although I have LPs that have consistently sounded better than many CDs. I have an old CD player though and my CDs are sounding a lot better after ripping them and playing them through the SB3. Anyway, the Edirol doesn't offer an 88.2K sample rate so I have to use either 44.1, 48, or 96. I compared recording at 16/44.1K and 24/96K and there was a distinct improvement in sound even when the final file was saved as 16/44.1. I have not tried 16/96K or any of the other combinations since it is all time consuming plus I have always tried to never play an LP more than once within a 24 hour period. I am just starting out on this so I was hoping I could bypass some of the trial and error by learning from others who have been down this path already. As far as I know, flac is limited to 48K but does allow 24 bits. To save the full 24/96K, I would have to save as wav which would then take even more space. I have around 700 LPs and 300 CDs so this is going to be a long project and will require a lot of disk space even as flac files. I do want to get this all sorted out before I get too far into it for exactly the reason Heuer stated, I don't want to have to re-rip at a later date. -- sataylor56 sataylor56's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=11883 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=19976 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Idiots guide to FLAC vs WAV vs MP3
sataylor56;206907 Wrote: As far as I know, flac is limited to 48K but does allow 24 bits. FLAC supports up to 32 bits and up to 655 kHz. From http://flac.sourceforge.net/faq.html#general__samples FLAC supports linear PCM samples with a resolution between 4 and 32 bits per sample. FLAC supports linear sample rates from 1Hz - 655350Hz in 1Hz increments. -- Mark Lanctot 'Sean Adams' Response-O-Matic checklist, patent pending!' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=200910postcount=2) Mark Lanctot's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2071 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=19976 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Idiots guide to FLAC vs WAV vs MP3
cliveb;206901 Wrote: And I've never seen a phono preamp with a noise floor as low as -96dB. As for sample rate: while most LPs have some sort of signal above 20kHz, it's typically all noise and distortion. Indeed, most LP cutter heads have low pass filters to prevent exciting resonances. So most LPs have no programme material on them above about 18kHz. I've personally never found the need for higher sample rates that 44.1kHz. This one gets very close though: http://store.acousticsounds.com/browse_detail.cfm?Title_ID=11728sct= Can't agree about using 44.1k for vinyl - makes it sound like a CD! Recording at 24/96 gets very close to capturing the original sound of an LP. Oh and FLAC does support 24/96. -- Heuer Heuer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2543 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=19976 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Idiots guide to FLAC vs WAV vs MP3
OK, I was confused. I saw that the SB3 supported flac up to 48K and thought that that was a flac limit. Now I see that the SB3 will accept 24/96K but will down sample to 48K. So I could save everything as 24/96K and the only downside is the increased storage requirements. -- sataylor56 sataylor56's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=11883 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=19976 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Idiots guide to FLAC vs WAV vs MP3
Yes that is pretty much it. A 24/96 FLAC file is about three times the size of a 16/44.1 file and about twice the size of a 24/48 file. -- Heuer Heuer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2543 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=19976 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Idiots guide to FLAC vs WAV vs MP3
sataylor56;206907 Wrote: I compared recording at 16/44.1K and 24/96K and there was a distinct improvement in sound even when the final file was saved as 16/44.1 I think the most plausible explanation is that maybe the Edirol has a native sample rate of 96kHz and if you ask it to record at 44.1, it does a real-time sample rate conversion (SRC), either in the unit's firmware or in the driver. SRC in inexpensive soundcards is rarely done well. Quite possibly Audacity's SRC is of a higher quality. -- cliveb Transporter - ATC SCM100A cliveb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=348 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=19976 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Idiots guide to FLAC vs WAV vs MP3
Heuer;206918 Wrote: This one gets very close though: http://store.acousticsounds.com/browse_detail.cfm?Title_ID=11728sct= Well, I've never heard it. Not surprising really, given that it costs $3000! I'm sure it's a marvelous device, though. Heuer;206918 Wrote: Can't agree about using 44.1k for vinyl - makes it sound like a CD! That's funny: I'd say quite the opposite - when I record an LP to CD at 44.1/16, it makes the CD sound just like an LP! -- cliveb Transporter - ATC SCM100A cliveb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=348 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=19976 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Idiots guide to FLAC vs WAV vs MP3
for all the helpful answers... my question now is...between the preamps and the computer...what interface should i use...and what software to record? im sorry if this was already answered...have some patience for the newbies... e. -- eboy eboy's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=11879 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=19976 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Idiots guide to FLAC vs WAV vs MP3
cliveb;206934 Wrote: Well, I've never heard it. Not surprising really, given that it costs $3000! I'm sure it's a marvelous device, though. That's funny: I'd say quite the opposite - when I record an LP to CD at 44.1/16, it makes the CD sound just like an LP! Yes the Sutherland is an amazing device and I feed it via an SME 20/2 and Koetsu Rosewood Platinum. Results are 'interesting' if you are into such things. Your second comment did bring a smile to my face though! Regards -- Heuer Heuer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2543 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=19976 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Idiots guide to FLAC vs WAV vs MP3
eboy;206945 Wrote: for all the helpful answers... my question now is...between the preamps and the computer...what interface should i use...and what software to record? im sorry if this was already answered...have some patience for the newbies... e. E-Mu 0202 for the ADC Spin It Again for the software Google will give you the links. -- Heuer Heuer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2543 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=19976 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Idiots guide to FLAC vs WAV vs MP3
Heuer;206953 Wrote: E-Mu 0202 for the ADC Spin It Again for the software eboy wants to do this on a Mac. Spin It Again is a Windows product. I know very little about Macs, but my understanding is that most of them have pretty respectable built-in sound, so it may well be that eboy already has the necessary hardware. It's likely there will be some sort of hard disk recording and CD writing programs already available on his Mac. That just leaves restoration to deal with, and there I'm afraid I can't help, except to note that the previously mentioned Click Repair works pretty well and does have a Mac version available. For general editing, Audacity is available for Mac OSX. -- cliveb Transporter - ATC SCM100A cliveb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=348 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=19976 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Idiots guide to FLAC vs WAV vs MP3
rick's cafe wrote: Could someone give me a brief idiots guide to FLAC Ripping vs WAV vs MP3. I'm not sure if you are asking about the file formats or ripping software. Since, this is the audiophiles list, part of the answer can be short and easy. MP3 and other lossy formats throw away parts of the music that they think are not important. Audiophiles think that every part of the music is important, and no dumb algorithm can decide so they never use MP3 for anything worth listening to. From the audiophile focus on sound, there is no difference between WAV (pcm) and any of the lossless compression systems. These include FLAC, MLP, WMA-lossless, AAC-lossless, etc. By definition, lossless means nothing is lost. WAV files have two downsides. They are bigger (see below) and you can't tag them. Tags help library management, and managing a large library is a big deal. If you have a tiny library, it doesn't matter at all. Also on avg what is the file size for a CD ripped as FLAC vs the rest and what rippers do you recommend I use. FLAC for me achieves a 40% to 50% compression. So a movement that is 100MB becomes 60MB compressed. YMMV a lot. -- Pat http://www.pfarrell.com/music/slimserver/slimsoftware.html ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Idiots guide to FLAC vs WAV vs MP3
Download EAC from here: http://www.exactaudiocopy.de/ Configure it using this: http://users.pandora.be/satcp/eac-qs-en.htm To burn to WAV, use the EAC WAV button. To burn to FLAC, use the EAC MP3 button but with the FLAC (compression) profile loaded. To burn to MP3, use the EAC MP3 button but with the MP3 (compression) profile loaded. Note: if burning lossless, WAV won't get you any advantages over FLAC and will cost you more storage space. dBpowerAMP requires virtually no configuration: http://www.dbpoweramp.com/ but its ripper is not as accurate, powerful or configurable as EAC and its MP3 encoder is on a 30-day license. In regards to file sizes, I haven't found anything definitive, but: http://www.awaken.com/FAQManagingMyMusic.php5 FLAC files are about 36 MB each and would be about 500 MB/CD. How much hard drive space would I need for 300 CDs in lossless format? Approximately 120 GB for FLAC or WMA; and 240 GB for AIFF or WAV. What is the average file size for a CD converted at the highest quality bitrate? A song encoded in MP3 320 kbps CBR will be about 10 MB on average. If you assume a CD has about 15 tracks this will result in 150 MB/CD. MP3's at 256 kbps VBR would be more like 120 MB/CD. rick's cafe wrote: Could someone give me a brief idiots guide to FLAC Ripping vs WAV vs MP3. I will be playing all my music on SB3 thru a Cambridge Audio 540R ... any advice or recommendations welcomed. Also on avg what is the file size for a CD ripped as FLAC vs the rest and what rippers do you recommend I use. thanks -- ___ Mark Lanctot, [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ __ Find your next car at http://autos.yahoo.ca ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Idiots guide to FLAC vs WAV vs MP3
A decent, rough rule of thumb for me has been to estimate about 1GB of HDD space needed to store 3 CDs worth of FLAC encoded files. Double this figure if you want to keep a backup of your library on HDD. Background numbers: CDs are averaging about 500 to 550MB. FLAC encoding results in an average of about 55% of original file size. This based on a sample of a couple of hundred CDs encoded. Your sample may differ significantly, but it's a decent guide for estimation purposes. --rt ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
