Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Where to get SC7 with firmware v83?
kmchow98, I am not offended, I am simply asking you you substantiate your claims with evidence. What you've done instead is to continue with even more baseless speculation. When you can actually demonstrate any of the phenomena you're claiming, let's talk. In the mean time, it doesn't bother me in the least if you want to believe that one firmware sounds different from another, but I will challenge you if you claim to have facts or some technical explanation for it. It's nothing personal, although I admit being a little bristly there. -- seanadams seanadams's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=45374 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Where to get SC7 with firmware v83?
kmchow98 wrote: You have mentioned audio logic several times in your spec. Can you please explain what it is? for this I refer to the internal DAC and the output stages. Most folks tend to use standard terms, it helps smooth communcations. audio logic is a strange combination of terms to my ears. If you mean analog output stages, I tend to think its better to use the term, analog output stages. Which have nothing to do with firmware versions. I don't know if the actual internal DAC is software controlled, but there is not much 'logic' in a DAC for that matter. ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Where to get SC7 with firmware v83?
seanadams;285036 Wrote: kmchow98, I am not offended, I am simply asking you you substantiate your claims with evidence. What you've done instead is to continue with even more baseless speculation. When you can actually demonstrate any of the phenomena you're claiming, let's talk. In the mean time, it doesn't bother me in the least if you want to believe that one firmware sounds different from another, but I will challenge you if you claim to have facts or some technical explanation for it. It's nothing personal, although I admit being a little bristly there. Hi. Thanks. I do belong to a group that believes that swapping a cheaper power cord of a CD player to a more up market version produces positive results. But I can't explain these kind of effects, and so I cannot claim if some versions of firmware perform better than others in the sound quality department. I am happy that Logitec allows users to upgrade or downgrade to any squeezecenter/slimserver version. (no forcing it down our throat) -- kmchow98 kmchow98's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13270 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=45374 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Where to get SC7 with firmware v83?
I've tried really hard to stay out of this, but at least keep your story straight! kmchow98 Wrote: And I do feel that version 83 give a fairly soothing presentation that is nice on the ears(mine). Version 81 is fine too with slightly less midrange bloom. But version 86 isn't quite my appetite. But I am sure some people prefer it. kmchow98 Wrote: Speaking from experience... Firmware changes WILL have some(very little) effect on everything. And that includes the digital out. It's just too small to measure. kmchow98;285163 Wrote: I cannot claim if some versions of firmware perform better than others in the sound quality department. Well, which is it? -- radish radish's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=77 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=45374 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Where to get SC7 with firmware v83?
seanadams;284567 Wrote: No, I'm not kidding. Please explain your theory. Be as technical as you like. Ok, let's start off slow with the specification first and see if we can agree on it before we go further. Audiophile specs: - Use the Coaxial digital output only for audio out - Minimal jitter (just go as low as feasible) - reduce EMC/RFI from the digital/analog logic in SB3 - Wireless connectivity (no ethernet, not exactly audiophile specs, but that's why I am using the SB3) - User Interface as secondary(I refer to the display on SB3) - A good supply of current(power) available to the audio logic. Can we agree on this? -- kmchow98 kmchow98's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13270 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=45374 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Where to get SC7 with firmware v83?
kmchow98;284623 Wrote: Ok, let's start off slow with the specification first and see if we can agree on it before we go further. Audiophile specs: What do you mean by the specification? // - Use the Coaxial digital output only for audio out Do you mean the coax is only for audio out, as opposed to audio plus something else? In that case I don't understand you. Or are you suggesting that the coax will sound better if the other outputs are turned off? In that case I would like to understand your theoretical basis for this assertion. Or do you mean that coax s/pdif is the only audiophile worthy signal to use? In the case of SB3 I would tend to agree with you there. In the case of Transporter I would disagree. // - Minimal jitter (just go as low as feasible) Sure. I suppose you will assert that jitter changes from one firmware version to the next. Can you substantiate that? // - reduce EMC/RFI from the digital/analog logic in SB3 What is analog logic? // - Wireless connectivity (no ethernet, not exactly audiophile specs, but that's why I am using the SB3) An 802.11 radio is an intentional RF emitter. If you are trying to minimize RFI you should be using ethernet. // - User Interface as secondary(I refer to the display on SB3) How does the display relate to the firmware version? // - A good supply of current(power) available to the audio logic. What do you mean by audio logic? Do you believe that it is starved for electricity? Can we agree on this? Why do you need my agreement on anything? You claim is that the sound changes from one firmware version to the next, in immeasurable but yet subtly audible ways. Just tell us how, in technical terms. -- seanadams seanadams's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=45374 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Where to get SC7 with firmware v83?
Whilst waiting for the next thrilling installment, I'd like to state that there is NO WAY IMHO that using a (properly working and wired) wired ethernet connection is going to be worse than wi-fi... wi-fi is by design an RF generator! (erm...I think the Guy Who Writes Firmware just said that - sorry) -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal...SB3+Stontronics PSU - Altmann JISCO/UPCI - TACT RCS 2.2X with Good Vibrations S/W - MF X-DAC V3/X-PSU/X-10 buffer (Audiocomm full mods)- Linn 5103 - Linn Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Kimber Chord cables Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=45374 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Where to get SC7 with firmware v83?
seanadams;284768 Wrote: What do you mean by the specification? // - Use the Coaxial digital output only for audio out Do you mean the coax is only for audio out, as opposed to audio plus something else? In that case I don't understand you. Or are you suggesting that the coax will sound better if the other outputs are turned off? In that case I would like to understand your theoretical basis for this assertion. Or do you mean that coax s/pdif is the only audiophile worthy signal to use? In the case of SB3 I would tend to agree with you there. In the case of Transporter I would disagree. // - Minimal jitter (just go as low as feasible) Sure. I suppose you will assert that jitter changes from one firmware version to the next. Can you substantiate that? // - reduce EMC/RFI from the digital/analog logic in SB3 What is analog logic? // - Wireless connectivity (no ethernet, not exactly audiophile specs, but that's why I am using the SB3) An 802.11 radio is an intentional RF emitter. If you are trying to minimize RFI you should be using ethernet. // - User Interface as secondary(I refer to the display on SB3) How does the display relate to the firmware version? // - A good supply of current(power) available to the audio logic. What do you mean by audio logic? Do you believe that it is starved for electricity? Why do you need my agreement on anything? You claim is that the sound changes from one firmware version to the next, in immeasurable but yet subtly audible ways. Just tell us how, in technical terms. Sorry if I offended you in any way. I certainly wish this thread don't turn into an argument. I have used v6.5.3 to v6.5.4 since I picked up the SB3. Excellent piece of device. So good that I sold my CD player away. I only claimed that when I switched to SC7, suddenly I couldn't have extended listening sessions (IMO,acid test) anymore. I don't think SC7 is the culprit, so it had to be the updated firmware version which is 86. Switching back the v81 and 83 worked for me. I needed some alignment before I could proceed further because there is simply no way to know why the latest firmware version sounded like it does without knowing the SB3 firmware architecture. I believe you know the firmware (and hardware) architecture the best, for me to advice on this is completely out of line. Therefore I put out the audiophile specs so that we just need to concentrate on what is wish list instead of theory. I don't have the depth of knowledge to explain with factual data why the specs are so. Those are general wants, simplicity in a system to optimize what's really important: sound quality. -- kmchow98 kmchow98's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13270 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=45374 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Where to get SC7 with firmware v83?
seanadams;284768 Wrote: What do you mean by the specification? // - Use the Coaxial digital output only for audio out Do you mean the coax is only for audio out, as opposed to audio plus something else? In that case I don't understand you. Or are you suggesting that the coax will sound better if the other outputs are turned off? In that case I would like to understand your theoretical basis for this assertion. Or do you mean that coax s/pdif is the only audiophile worthy signal to use? In the case of SB3 I would tend to agree with you there. In the case of Transporter I would disagree. \\ In the SB3, I think the coaxial output presents the best output possible. By turning off the analog output off, you gain a couple of benefits. 1) noise generate by the analog IC will be minimized. 2) If by turning off the analog logic, I presume the DACs will draw less current(power), so more headroom is available for the rest of the system. 3) If in firmware, you've got code running for the analog logic, perhaps these threads could be removed or put to a lower priority interrupt to reduce CPU utilization. // - Minimal jitter (just go as low as feasible) Sure. I suppose you will assert that jitter changes from one firmware version to the next. Can you substantiate that? \\ Do you folks get the EE engineers to redo EMC/RFI qualification and jitter measurement for each code release? If yes, the answer could be there. But I don't think the measurements are done for each code release, because it costs money and time to do it. // - reduce EMC/RFI from the digital/analog logic in SB3 What is analog logic? \\ I refer to the the DACs and related logic. // - Wireless connectivity (no ethernet, not exactly audiophile specs, but that's why I am using the SB3) An 802.11 radio is an intentional RF emitter. If you are trying to minimize RFI you should be using ethernet. \\ Agreed, ethernet generate less noise. But putting the ethernet router and PC together with the hifi setup may mess up things up too. So the more elegant way is to use wireless. This is more a less a compromise here. With ethernet disabled, the noise generate from the ethernet logic will go away. Although not as noisy as wireless, they are probably the second most noisy digital logic in the system. And they consume around 0.5W of power. If the ethernet PHY can be powered down, you get less noise and again, more headroom for the rest of the system. // - User Interface as secondary(I refer to the display on SB3) How does the display relate to the firmware version? \\ May I know what is the CPU utilization with and without display updates? Does the thread have a higher priority? // - A good supply of current(power) available to the audio logic. What do you mean by audio logic? Do you believe that it is starved for electricity? \\ This is the interesting portion. Having a beefier power supply somehow gives audio systems more weight and dynamics. But since the SB hardware is frozen, turning off unnecessary logic is the only way to improve power supply headroom. I think this thread should come to an end -- kmchow98 kmchow98's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13270 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=45374 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Where to get SC7 with firmware v83?
kmchow98;284900 Wrote: Sorry if I offended you in any way. I certainly wish this thread don't turn into an argument. I have used v6.5.3 to v6.5.4 since I picked up the SB3. Excellent piece of device. So good that I sold my CD player away. I only claimed that when I switched to SC7, suddenly I couldn't have extended listening sessions (IMO,acid test) anymore. I don't think SC7 is the culprit, so it had to be the updated firmware version which is 86. Switching back the v81 and 83 worked for me. I needed some alignment before I could proceed further because there is simply no way to know why the latest firmware version sounded like it does without knowing the SB3 firmware architecture. I believe you know the firmware (and hardware) architecture the best, for me to advice on this is completely out of line. Therefore I put out the audiophile specs so that we just need to concentrate on what is wish list instead of theory. I don't have the depth of knowledge to explain with factual data why the specs are so. Those are general wants, simplicity in a system to optimize what's really important: sound quality. It is really an open discussion for the benefit of everyone. You are not challenged for the depth of knowledge. Rather, they want to understand from your perspective as a user why you think the audiophie specs should such and such. Even if you might not have the technicality to explain, you should possess a certain kind of belief to lead you to think that way. I don't think the specs was decided randomly? You have mentioned audio logic several times in your spec. Can you please explain what it is? -- cheetah cheetah's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7231 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=45374 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Where to get SC7 with firmware v83?
cheetah;284913 Wrote: It is really an open discussion for the benefit of everyone. You are not challenged for the depth of knowledge. Rather, they want to understand from your perspective as a user why you think the audiophie specs should such and such. Even if you might not have the technicality to explain, you should possess a certain kind of belief to lead you to think that way. I don't think the specs was decided randomly? You have mentioned audio logic several times in your spec. Can you please explain what it is? for this I refer to the internal DAC and the output stages. -- kmchow98 kmchow98's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13270 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=45374 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Where to get SC7 with firmware v83?
Phil Leigh;284147 Wrote: so 83 is the new 15? (oh God) Be nice. This, after all is a public forum, intended for public discourse. A reponse like yours only discourages others with differing opinions/experience. No...we are not you. All our base are not belong to you. . -- haunyack Transporter | BK 200.2 | Vandersteen 3A Signature C.G. Conn New York Wonder haunyack's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9721 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=45374 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Where to get SC7 with firmware v83?
kmchow98;284195 Wrote: Never tried 15. I have got no complains regarding version 81 that came with 6.5.4. The online community apparently like 83 alot. And I do feel that version 83 give a fairly soothing presentation that is nice on the ears(mine). Version 81 is fine too with slightly less midrange bloom. But version 86 isn't quite my appetite. But I am sure some people prefer it. I like the chocolate bloom of 83's mids coupled with the strawberry syrup of the highs and whipped cream of the bass. I'm getting hungry -- tomjtx tomjtx's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7449 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=45374 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Where to get SC7 with firmware v83?
haunyack;284148 Wrote: Be nice. This, after all is a public forum, intended for public discourse. A reponse like yours only discourages others with differing opinion/experience. All our base are not belong to you. insert smiley of your choice here . Sorry, I was trying to discourage people from trying antique firmware... I've yet to hear Sean ever truly comment on how the firmware could affect the sound quality as rendered by an external DAC via the digital output in any way. I just don't believe it. More to the point, I've never heard it. My father (bless him) used to have a poster on his office wall which read something like People who think they know everything are really annoying to those of us who do... -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal...SB3+Stontronics PSU - Altmann JISCO/UPCI - TACT RCS 2.2X with Good Vibrations S/W - MF X-DAC V3/X-PSU/X-10 buffer (Audiocomm full mods)- Linn 5103 - Linn Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Kimber Chord cables Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=45374 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Where to get SC7 with firmware v83?
Phil Leigh;284398 Wrote: Sorry, I was trying to discourage people from trying antique firmware... I see your point. Some time ago I thought the FW15 angle was worth a shot as most tweakers are never satisfied with status-quo. As I remember there was a difference in the sound but I could not nail it down. So I cruised happily along at fw15 as the rest of the SlimServer world moved ahead. I finally decided loss of function is not a good trade-off for marginal (unproved) gains in fidelity. I'm back with the herd. . -- haunyack Transporter | BK 200.2 | Vandersteen 3A Signature C.G. Conn New York Wonder haunyack's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9721 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=45374 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Where to get SC7 with firmware v83?
Phil Leigh;284398 Wrote: Sorry, I was trying to discourage people from trying antique firmware... I've yet to hear Sean ever truly comment on how the firmware could affect the sound quality as rendered by an external DAC via the digital output in any way. I just don't believe it. More to the point, I've never heard it. My father (bless him) used to have a poster on his office wall which read something like People who think they know everything are really annoying to those of us who do... As an audiophile, I didn't think it should make a difference... but the blind tests without prior knowledge told me otherwise. Speaking from experience... Firmware changes WILL have some(very little) effect on everything. And that includes the digital out. It's just too small to measure. I would bet that if Logitec starts offering customised firmware code for users, we will begin to find that the full suite version with all features enable will sound the worst. eg. I only use the wireless and digital out feature, so in firmware, they could exclude the code for the analog out and also disable the ethernet network interface completely. I could go alot further than this, but this is getting too techical.;-) -- kmchow98 kmchow98's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13270 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=45374 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Where to get SC7 with firmware v83?
kmchow98;284508 Wrote: I could go alot further than this, but this is getting too techical.;-) Oh no, please do get more technical! -- seanadams seanadams's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=45374 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Where to get SC7 with firmware v83?
kmchow98;284550 Wrote: You're kidding right? No, I'm not kidding. Please explain your theory. Be as technical as you like. -- seanadams seanadams's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=45374 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Where to get SC7 with firmware v83?
kmchow98;284508 Wrote: Speaking from experience... Firmware changes WILL have some(very little) effect on everything. And that includes the digital out. It's just too small to measure. but your DAC has no problem distingushing it. Sound like contradiction... -- adyc adyc's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=12564 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=45374 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Where to get SC7 with firmware v83?
adyc;284570 Wrote: but your DAC has no problem distingushing it. Sound like contradiction... In this mad world of an audiophile, nothing makes sense. Since it doesn't make sense, this isn't an issue that can be discussed and aligned upon. (we will just end up fighting :-) -- kmchow98 kmchow98's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13270 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=45374 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Where to get SC7 with firmware v83?
Nevermind. I manage to update the firmware with v83 on v6.5.4. woo hoo -- kmchow98 kmchow98's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13270 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=45374 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Where to get SC7 with firmware v83?
so 83 is the new 15? (oh God) -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal...SB3+Stontronics PSU - Altmann JISCO/UPCI - TACT RCS 2.2X with Good Vibrations S/W - MF X-DAC V3/X-PSU/X-10 buffer (Audiocomm full mods)- Linn 5103 - Linn Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Kimber Chord cables Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=45374 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
