Re: [Aus-soaring] Spin training
Is this what you had in mind Anthony? http://www.dg-flugzeugbau.de/index.php?id=seitenfaden-e Ulrich -Original Message- From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Anthony Smith Sent: Saturday, 27 December 2014 16:49 To: 'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.' Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Spin training You probably could do something very easily for modern non-flapped gliders. AoA indicators have been around for a long time. You could have three critical angles annotated on the device display: stall, climb and cruise. Flapped gliders would need to have a method of knowing what the flap deflection is which would change these angles a bit depending on the deflection. The problem would be whether pilots would want an extra device protruding into the laminar flow on the forward fuselage or not. I may have mentioned the following previously: As an aside, the static system on the P-3 Orion is excellent for detecting stall - just not in the expected way. The original static system was on the forward fuselage. However , it was found to have disturbed airflow when the bomb bay doors were open. An alternate static location was found on the aft fuselage. Arguably it was a better site as the error correction for the static system was significantly smaller and it was not affected by the bomb bay doors being open. However, the new static ports were in the wake from the upper surface of the wing. As soon as the wing root airflow on the wing upper surface starts to separate, the static system becomes subject to large pressure disturbances and the ASI and the altimeter become unresponsive and both of the needles start to bounce around. So if you experience buffet in a P-3 and the ASI and altimeter needles are bouncing around, it is a stall. During discussions a few years ago about P-3 stall warning, I suggested that it may be feasible to directly tap into the static system and detect the pressure fluctuations from the flow separation and hence provide a stall warning. The proposal was rejected as it needed a lot of R D thrown at it to develop the idea. Something like this may be the 'better mouse trap' for gliders. A pressure transducer system connected to the upper surface trailing edge of the wing at a suitable point on each side that trips a warning if separated flow is detected. This would be a direct measurement of impending stall rather than implied through AoA or computing speed, g and wing loading etc. Anthony -Original Message- From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Michael Derry Sent: Saturday, 27 December 2014 10:29 AM To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Spin training The report reminds us how useless the ASI is during spins. You are better off judging speed using the noise levels assessed by your ears. Why hasn't some instrument maker built a better mousetrap than the one we have ? On Sat, 27 Dec 2014 08:56:09 +1030 Ulrich Stauss usta...@internode.on.net wrote: This is a multipart message in MIME format. http://faculty.chicagobooth.edu/john.cochrane/research/Data_and_Progra ms/CFI/AFFTC-TR-89-27%20Spin%20Test.pdf Ulrich From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Ron Sanders Sent: Saturday, 27 December 2014 08:44 To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Spin training Bernard, good morning, i would lke o read that report too please? Ron On 27 December 2014 at 08:18, Bernhard ec...@internode.on.net wrote: Hello Paul, good morning all You might be interested to know that the US Air Force has already been using the ASK21 for spin training over several decades. Therefore you might want to refer to a report by the US Air Force on the spin characteristics of the ASK 21. It was done by experts in the field and true professionals. When you read the report you will find that it was perhaps the most comprehensive study into the subject ever done. To save you digging around I have attached a copy for you! Kind regards to all Bernard On 26 Dec 2014, at 10:05 pm, Paul Bart pb2...@gmail.com mailto:pb2...@gmail.com wrote: On 26 December 2014 at 19:33, Daryl Mackay darylmac...@gmail.com mailto:darylmac...@gmail.com wrote: Suffice to say no instructor willingly uses the ASK21 for spin awareness training at Beverley. ​Hi Daryl Would you mind explaining why? This is a genuine inquiry as my club is about to take a delivery of one.​ ​Cheers Paulâ
Re: [Aus-soaring] Spin training
Actually, yes. I must try that out sometime! -Original Message- From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Ulrich Stauss Sent: Saturday, 27 December 2014 8:07 PM To: 'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.' Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Spin training Is this what you had in mind Anthony? http://www.dg-flugzeugbau.de/index.php?id=seitenfaden-e Ulrich -Original Message- From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Anthony Smith Sent: Saturday, 27 December 2014 16:49 To: 'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.' Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Spin training You probably could do something very easily for modern non-flapped gliders. AoA indicators have been around for a long time. You could have three critical angles annotated on the device display: stall, climb and cruise. Flapped gliders would need to have a method of knowing what the flap deflection is which would change these angles a bit depending on the deflection. The problem would be whether pilots would want an extra device protruding into the laminar flow on the forward fuselage or not. I may have mentioned the following previously: As an aside, the static system on the P-3 Orion is excellent for detecting stall - just not in the expected way. The original static system was on the forward fuselage. However , it was found to have disturbed airflow when the bomb bay doors were open. An alternate static location was found on the aft fuselage. Arguably it was a better site as the error correction for the static system was significantly smaller and it was not affected by the bomb bay doors being open. However, the new static ports were in the wake from the upper surface of the wing. As soon as the wing root airflow on the wing upper surface starts to separate, the static system becomes subject to large pressure disturbances and the ASI and the altimeter become unresponsive and both of the needles start to bounce around. So if you experience buffet in a P-3 and the ASI and altimeter needles are bouncing around, it is a stall. During discussions a few years ago about P-3 stall warning, I suggested that it may be feasible to directly tap into the static system and detect the pressure fluctuations from the flow separation and hence provide a stall warning. The proposal was rejected as it needed a lot of R D thrown at it to develop the idea. Something like this may be the 'better mouse trap' for gliders. A pressure transducer system connected to the upper surface trailing edge of the wing at a suitable point on each side that trips a warning if separated flow is detected. This would be a direct measurement of impending stall rather than implied through AoA or computing speed, g and wing loading etc. Anthony -Original Message- From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Michael Derry Sent: Saturday, 27 December 2014 10:29 AM To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Spin training The report reminds us how useless the ASI is during spins. You are better off judging speed using the noise levels assessed by your ears. Why hasn't some instrument maker built a better mousetrap than the one we have ? On Sat, 27 Dec 2014 08:56:09 +1030 Ulrich Stauss usta...@internode.on.net wrote: This is a multipart message in MIME format. http://faculty.chicagobooth.edu/john.cochrane/research/Data_and_Progra ms/CFI/AFFTC-TR-89-27%20Spin%20Test.pdf Ulrich From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Ron Sanders Sent: Saturday, 27 December 2014 08:44 To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Spin training Bernard, good morning, i would lke o read that report too please? Ron On 27 December 2014 at 08:18, Bernhard ec...@internode.on.net wrote: Hello Paul, good morning all You might be interested to know that the US Air Force has already been using the ASK21 for spin training over several decades. Therefore you might want to refer to a report by the US Air Force on the spin characteristics of the ASK 21. It was done by experts in the field and true professionals. When you read the report you will find that it was perhaps the most comprehensive study into the subject ever done. To save you digging around I have attached a copy for you! Kind regards to all Bernard On 26 Dec 2014, at 10:05 pm, Paul Bart pb2...@gmail.com mailto:pb2...@gmail.com wrote: On 26 December 2014 at 19:33, Daryl Mackay darylmac
Re: [Aus-soaring] Spin training
Actually, I was thinking a flush mounted static probe rather than a pitot. It would be interesting to see if a transducer could pick up the pressure fluctuations from separated flow and be able to see the difference from attached flow. After doing some work with the RAAF's P-3 wing tips, I am pretty sure it is feasible. -Original Message- I saw a photo from 30 years ago of your upper wing surface near the trailing edge pitot probe, Anthony. Pressure should be equal to pitot until the thickening separated boundary layer encompasses the wing probe when the pressure difference should increase rapidly. Might be useful on some gliders which are very well behaved at low speeds and thermal nicely but don't climb well unless flown a fair bit faster. ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
[Aus-soaring] Spin training
Sorry for this long response but I am passionate about this issue and some clarifications are necessary. It is only true that most spins can be prevented if 1.5Vs is maintained. A mishandled entry of more than 1 G steady is possible at much higher speeds. (E.g. Mishandling and Snap rolls) Many things lead up to the inadvertent spin accident. Having reached autorotation, only a successful spin recovery can save the final accident chain outcome. We must mitigate against this identified risk. Obviously, safe speed near the ground training is not working all the time and only gives the training department a false sense of security in their job of preparing a safe pilot. We all perform this monkey do action for the instructor and yet we still have spin accidents. The fact is that all pilots can make mistakes when loaded up in a circuit and our best laid plan is falling apart. This stress can and has resulted in slower than intended speeds. The majority of spin accident result from too slow/high angle of attack flight. When everything else has failed, it is the ability to recover from; 1. Slow flight 2. Stall, 3. Incipient spin, and finaly 4. Spin that may save the day. I certainly wouldn’t give up on a full spin recovery well below 1000ft AGL! An incipient spin recovery on final should still result in a controlled landing. And every one of us has recognised inadvertent slow flight on short final and done something about it to avoid the heavy landing. Instructors see this one every day. We need more low speed, high angle of attack flying training; not less. A yearly check in a training ACFT by an instructor under pressure to accept the minimum requirement, with the average pilot, no longer current and now in another type, 12 months later, who has inadvertently allowed his IAS to decrease below some nominated speed is an accident chain. If progressed to this stage, then the final outcome will only be saved by knowing how to identify high angle of attack flight and a speedy recovery. With regard to the “slippery” training ACFT not providing realistic anti spin training. It is the instructor who makes the over-riding difference but even then, one should not blame the tools he has to work with. I also note the high drag/low drag and the money savings/pilot satisfaction arguments. I address the high drag verses low drag argument as it applies to the ACFT I'm familair with, having read their Flight Manuals. I use the techniques personally taught me and described in AG by Mike Valentine and the GFA Instructors Manual and I do have aerobatic endorsements. I mention this because I want to stress that the aerodynamic/gyroscopic/CofG characteristics of the preferred types mentioned are consistant when using Mike's technique. I know that the DG1000 can be recovered with the same or less height loss as the Puchacz and both of these take a little more than the older L13 and the L23. This is directly related to the type of *autorotation* entry/recovery characteristics of the types, not the pull out from the ensuring dive. The Blaniks take just a little over 90 degrees of turn to recover from the autorotation. I have also extensively checked the spin entry and recovery characteristics of the ASK21 with its required spin kit fitted. Suffice to say no instructor willingly uses the ASK21 for spin awareness training at Beverley. Other clubs may have no other choice. The full spin recovery is designed to minimise the height loss once a spin has been allowed to develop. A major part of height conservation is gained by correctly identifying when the ACFT has recovered from the autorotation phase and we can therefore re-apply back stick but importantly play “G” against airspeed. Amazingly, in the majority of cases on all types, this is the area where most will lose excessive height; just when the ACFT is under their complete control! The problem is one of identification and this can only be improved by determined training and greater currency; not less. It is not ACFT specific and it is a cop out to propose one ACFT is worse than another. The instructor needs to become current with all his ACFT and teach minimum height loss with that particular tool. After all, it is a club ACFT and will be flown be a wide cross section of club members, all of whom form an accident chain sooner or later. The DG1000 autorotation recovery is both predictable and quick at all pilot weight combinations because of the ingenious and quick tail ballasting facility allowing a generous CofG range for spin training, even with the GFA 5% reduction over the Flight Manual range. The following pull-out phase, due to the initial lower zero “G” drag and subsequent increasing “G” lower drag during pull out provides a higher acceleration meaning less time to achieve safe flying recovery speed and therefore less height loss in this fully aerobatic ACFT. One should be achieving a recovery speed maximum of 65-70IAS on this type or redoing the exercise
Re: [Aus-soaring] Spin training
Hi Paul, Detailed response sent to your personal email address just now. Kind regards, Daryl ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Spin training
Hello Paul, good morning all You might be interested to know that the US Air Force has already been using the ASK21 for spin training over several decades. Therefore you might want to refer to a report by the US Air Force on the spin characteristics of the ASK 21. It was done by experts in the field and true professionals. When you read the report you will find that it was perhaps the most comprehensive study into the subject ever done. To save you digging around I have attached a copy for you! Kind regards to all Bernard On 26 Dec 2014, at 10:05 pm, Paul Bart pb2...@gmail.com wrote: On 26 December 2014 at 19:33, Daryl Mackay darylmac...@gmail.com mailto:darylmac...@gmail.com wrote: Suffice to say no instructor willingly uses the ASK21 for spin awareness training at Beverley. Hi Daryl Would you mind explaining why? This is a genuine inquiry as my club is about to take a delivery of one. Cheers Paul Cheers Paul ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Spin training
Bernard, good morning, i would lke o read that report too please? Ron On 27 December 2014 at 08:18, Bernhard ec...@internode.on.net wrote: Hello Paul, good morning all You might be interested to know that the US Air Force has already been using the ASK21 for spin training over several decades. Therefore you might want to refer to a report by the US Air Force on the spin characteristics of the ASK 21. It was done by experts in the field and true professionals. When you read the report you will find that it was perhaps the most comprehensive study into the subject ever done. To save you digging around I have attached a copy for you! Kind regards to all Bernard On 26 Dec 2014, at 10:05 pm, Paul Bart pb2...@gmail.com wrote: On 26 December 2014 at 19:33, Daryl Mackay darylmac...@gmail.com wrote: Suffice to say no instructor willingly uses the ASK21 for spin awareness training at Beverley. Hi Daryl Would you mind explaining why? This is a genuine inquiry as my club is about to take a delivery of one. Cheers Paul Cheers Paul ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Spin training
http://faculty.chicagobooth.edu/john.cochrane/research/Data_and_Programs/CFI/AFFTC-TR-89-27%20Spin%20Test.pdf Ulrich From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Ron Sanders Sent: Saturday, 27 December 2014 08:44 To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Spin training Bernard, good morning, i would lke o read that report too please? Ron On 27 December 2014 at 08:18, Bernhard ec...@internode.on.net wrote: Hello Paul, good morning all You might be interested to know that the US Air Force has already been using the ASK21 for spin training over several decades. Therefore you might want to refer to a report by the US Air Force on the spin characteristics of the ASK 21. It was done by experts in the field and true professionals. When you read the report you will find that it was perhaps the most comprehensive study into the subject ever done. To save you digging around I have attached a copy for you! Kind regards to all Bernard On 26 Dec 2014, at 10:05 pm, Paul Bart pb2...@gmail.com mailto:pb2...@gmail.com wrote: On 26 December 2014 at 19:33, Daryl Mackay darylmac...@gmail.com mailto:darylmac...@gmail.com wrote: Suffice to say no instructor willingly uses the ASK21 for spin awareness training at Beverley. Hi Daryl Would you mind explaining why? This is a genuine inquiry as my club is about to take a delivery of one. Cheers Paul Cheers Paul ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net mailto:Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net mailto:Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Spin training
the idea. Something like this may be the 'better mouse trap' for gliders. A pressure transducer system connected to the upper surface trailing edge of the wing at a suitable point on each side that trips a warning if separated flow is detected. This would be a direct measurement of impending stall rather than implied through AoA or computing speed, g and wing loading etc. Anthony -Original Message- From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Michael Derry Sent: Saturday, 27 December 2014 10:29 AM To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Spin training The report reminds us how useless the ASI is during spins. You are better off judging speed using the noise levels assessed by your ears. Why hasn't some instrument maker built a better mousetrap than the one we have ? On Sat, 27 Dec 2014 08:56:09 +1030 Ulrich Stauss usta...@internode.on.net wrote: This is a multipart message in MIME format. http://faculty.chicagobooth.edu/john.cochrane/research/Data_and_Progra ms/CFI/AFFTC-TR-89-27%20Spin%20Test.pdf Ulrich From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Ron Sanders Sent: Saturday, 27 December 2014 08:44 To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Spin training Bernard, good morning, i would lke o read that report too please? Ron On 27 December 2014 at 08:18, Bernhard ec...@internode.on.net wrote: Hello Paul, good morning all You might be interested to know that the US Air Force has already been using the ASK21 for spin training over several decades. Therefore you might want to refer to a report by the US Air Force on the spin characteristics of the ASK 21. It was done by experts in the field and true professionals. When you read the report you will find that it was perhaps the most comprehensive study into the subject ever done. To save you digging around I have attached a copy for you! Kind regards to all Bernard On 26 Dec 2014, at 10:05 pm, Paul Bart pb2...@gmail.com mailto:pb2...@gmail.com wrote: On 26 December 2014 at 19:33, Daryl Mackay darylmac...@gmail.com mailto:darylmac...@gmail.com wrote: Suffice to say no instructor willingly uses the ASK21 for spin awareness training at Beverley. ââ¹Hi Daryl Would you mind explaining why? This is a genuine inquiry as my club is about to take a delivery of one.ââ¬â¹ ââ¹Cheers Paulâ¢â¹ Cheers Paul Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net mailto:Aus-soaring@lists.internode.onnet To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net mailto:Aus-soaring@lists.internode.onnet To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. http://www.avast.com ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
[Aus-soaring] spin training
Hi All, I wrote the attached article and it received a few comments, both on and off the web. I should have summarised as follows. 1. If you enter a spin a modern glider below 1,000 ft. AGL you will almost certainly die. No amount of prior training will make much difference. 2.Your first defence is to maintain safe speed near the ground. Your early training should be such that you feel very uncomfortable if below this criteria. 3. To maintain this speed you must monitor the ASI. Ground features mean relying on the horizon attitude is not accurate, particularly with modern slippery gliders. The ASI should be checked regularly and the closer to the ground and more adverse the conditions the more frequently the check. On final under turbulent conditions a quick check no more than every 5 seconds is needed to ensure safe speed is maintained. 4. Learning and practicing incipient recovery. If things go wrong incipient recovery means living to a ripe old age more certain, whether in a thermal or close to the ground. 5. Spin training helps in spins at altitude. Enter a spin below about 1,000 ft AGL in a modern glider and you will most likely be dead in about 5 seconds. Harry Medlicott Hi All, Sorry to be controversial but I believe most of our spin training is marginal in saving lives in the real world. Of far greater significance are design factors reducing the propensity of gliders to spin. Spin related accidents in Europe have substantially reduced over time. No changes in spin training but modern gliders are far more forgiving. My first club had winch launching only and every year a tug was brought in and towed gliders to 3,000 ft for spin training. After briefing, students were quite comfortable going through the standard recovery procedures. My second club was winch launching only. Often there were periods when we had students due for spin training but weather conditions were such that thermals were not able to give us much by way of height. I experimented with a Blanik by a spin of the top of a winch launch which after one turn allowed recovery by 1,000 ft. before using the procedure with a student. OK in a Blanik but certainly not in some other types Despite very careful briefing a few minutes before the results were entirely different to those when entering a spin at 3,000 ft. Upon seeing the ground below them the student would immediately pull the control column right back and sometimes also move the control column away from the descending wing. It was an involuntary reaction but the one we would use to keep the glider in a spin. So far as I am aware most spin accidents occur close to the ground, below about 1,000 ft unless one is flying a particularly nasty glider such as an IS28, which can take over 1,000 ft for the whole process. If what I am saying is correct, then what are the chances of a pilot using the correct recovery processes in a low level spin, perhaps a considerable time after undergoing spin training or refreshing? Not very high. When asked to give a nervous pilot spin training I would say “We are going to undertake spin avoidance training” whereupon they would relax. After release at say 3,000 ft I would establish safe speed near the ground and invite them to mishandle the glider with rudder and aileron and try and induce a spin. The message was that if you establish and maintain safe speed near the ground, a spin is improbable. After that, of course, we undertook standard spin training. Instructors right from a students very first flight should emphasise that they have established and maintained safe speed near the ground when they are at a height at which they would not like to attempt a spin recovery. Just as importantly, that their lookout procedures are excellent. My message to a student or visitor in an introductory flight was that I could not see where we going from the back seat and that their good lookout was needed to keep us safe, Harry Medlicott From: Peter (PCS3) Sent: Wednesday, December 24, 2014 10:48 PM To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Subject: [Aus-soaring] Spinning Re: IS-28B CQC's last flying day: On 24/12/2014 8:41 PM, Colin Collum wrote: G’day All, One of the ironies of gliding seems to be that modern sleek gliders are not only faster in virtually every sense, they are also safer in that many of them are much less likely to spin, but unfortunately our novice pilot can’t be guaranteed to always fly an aircraft that won’t spin. I was instructing a girl in the front seat of a Twin Astir and said to her: Twin Astirs just mush instead of spinning To my surprise, she managed to spin it easily (because of her light weight) and it required full opposite rudder to stop it as well as easing the stick forward and a very steep dive enough for a loop. I was in a Ventus 2b on a Xcountry having lunch in a thermal. I reached behind me to grab the water tube; the bottle was strapped on
[Aus-soaring] Spin Training
in the front seat of a Twin Astir and said to her: Twin Astirs just mush instead of spinning To my surprise, she managed to spin it easily (because of her light weight) and it required full opposite rudder to stop it as well as easing the stick forward and a very steep dive enough for a loop. I was in a Ventus 2b on a Xcountry having lunch in a thermal. I reached behind me to grab the water tube; the bottle was strapped on parcel shelf above and behind me and the tube had slipped down beside me out of reach and I was going to find it from the bottle. When I looked round, the paddocks were in my direct field of vision rotating. I absolutely had no idea I was in a spin. Full opposite rudder took a lng time to stop the rotation and the height lost was significant but fortunately did not end in an outlanding. I recite this to all my students when instructing on spins. PeterS So we need to teach them in aircraft that can be spun safely, but we also need to keep them keen and I must say that when I was learning 10 years ago, even then the IS28s gave the impression of being way too out-of-date in their performance and appearance. After going solo I graduated to the giddy heights of a Juniorthe novelty wore off that pretty quickly when from 8,500 AGL I couldnt make it 40km home at best LD into a light breeze without another thermal! Its no use saying I learned in one of those, and if it was good enough for me then it is good enough for the current generation of learners. We need to keep them interested, a little excited, able to progress quickly enough for it to be satisfying and also very safe. I dont claim to know the answers, but I doubt if it is IS28s, K13s, K6s and Juniors. K21s? Probably, but I dont know what to recommend for a first single-seater. Merry Xmas, Colin ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring Previous message View by thread View by date Next message Re: [Aus-soaring] IS-28B CQC's last flying ... Grant Davies Re: [Aus-soaring] IS-28B CQC's last flying ... Christopher McDonnell Re: [Aus-soaring] IS-28B CQC's last flying ... Derek Ruddock Re: [Aus-soaring] IS-28B CQC's last flying ... Mark Newton Re: [Aus-soaring] IS-28B CQC's last flying ... Darin McLean Re: [Aus-soaring] IS-28B CQC's last flying ... Leigh Bunting Re: [Aus-soaring] IS-28B CQC's last flying ... Colin Collum [Aus-soaring] Spinning Re: IS-28B CQC's la... Peter (PCS3) Re: [Aus-soaring] Spinning Re: IS-28B CQC'... Harry Re: [Aus-soaring] Spinning Re: IS-28B CQC's... Daryl Mackay [Aus-soaring] spin training Harry Re: [Aus-soaring] IS-28B CQC's last flying ... Grant Davies Re: [Aus-soaring] IS-28B CQC's last flying ... Leigh Bunting Re: [Aus-soaring] IS-28B CQC's last flying ... Mark Newton Re: [Aus-soaring] IS-28B CQC's last flying ... James Dutschke Re: [Aus-soaring] IS-28B CQC's last flying ... Leigh Bunting [Aus-soaring] German Soaring Picture Calendars ... Mike Cleaver Re: [Aus-soaring] IS-28B CQC's last flying day: Mike Cleaver --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. http://www.avast.com ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Spin Training
Hi Harry The dual car system is working well, plenty of power, tension control, no cable breaks, no drum tangles and quick turnaround. How is your winch going ? Compared to Australia, the BGA have done a lot of winch launching so it makes sense to look carefully at what they had done. I have read much of the material published on the BGA website about safe winch launching and much of it seems applicable to our operations, however I welcome input from others in Australia experienced at winch launching. The GFA sets a minumum, however as I understand it there is nothing to stop individual Clubs that are concerned about safety to up the minimum winch launch speed to a higher figure such as 1.5 Vs. We do a lot of aerotowing in Australia so we should do a safe aerotowing initiative for the Brits to follow although they have already beaten us to it. ! Cheers Michael On Fri, 26 Dec 2014 15:04:44 +1100 Harry hw.medlic...@optusnet.com.au wrote: Hi Michael, Not sure of your winch status. The Brits after an extensive investigation introduced âSafe Winch Launchâ. Its principles reduced the winching accident rate to 25% of what it was and has virtually eliminated fatalities. Worth checking out their web site if interested. It uses 1.5 VS as the winch launch minimum. They have no record of an airworthy glider being damaged by overspeeding but many accidents and fatalities by being too slow. I tried to get the GFA to adopt the principles in Safe Winch Launch. Initially they accepted 1.5 VS as the minimum but reduced it to 1.3 VS after some clubs complained that 1.5 VS left too small a margin between it and the max. winch launch speed allowed for some older gliders. I could go on with other instances. Harry -Original Message- From: Michael Derry Sent: Friday, December 26, 2014 11:32 AM To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Subject: [Aus-soaring] Spin Training Hi All Why is there such a paranoa about maintaining safe airspeed (which is accepted to be 1.5 times Vs plus 1/2 windspeed) near the ground for general flying if below 1,000 feet however: winch launching pilots only have to maintain 1.3 Vs while they have a gigantic airbrake deployed (ie their wing at 30 degrees or more). Doesn't make a lot of sense. Michael Derry __ Hi All, I wrote the attached article and it received a few comments, both on and off the web. I should have summarised as follows. 1. If you enter a spin a modern glider below 1,000 ft. AGL you will almost certainly die. No amount of prior training will make much difference. 2.Your first defence is to maintain safe speed near the ground. Your early training should be such that you feel very uncomfortable if below this criteria. 3. To maintain this speed you must monitor the ASI. Ground features mean relying on the horizon attitude is not accurate, particularly with modern slippery gliders. The ASI should be checked regularly and the closer to the ground and more adverse the conditions the more frequently the check. On final under turbulent conditions a quick check no more than every 5 seconds is needed to ensure safe speed is maintained. 4. Learning and practicing incipient recovery. If things go wrong incipient recovery means living to a ripe old age more certain, whether in a thermal or close to the ground. 5. Spin training helps in spins at altitude. Enter a spin below about 1,000 ft AGL in a modern glider and you will most likely be dead in about 5 seconds. Harry Medlicott Hi All, Sorry to be controversial but I believe most of our spin training is marginal in saving lives in the real world. Of far greater significance are design factors reducing the propensity of gliders to spin. Spin related accidents in Europe have substantially reduced over time. No changes in spin training but modern gliders are far more forgiving. My first club had winch launching only and every year a tug was brought in and towed gliders to 3,000 ft for spin training. After briefing, students were quite comfortable going through the standard recovery procedures. My second club was winch launching only. Often there were periods when we had students due for spin training but weather conditions were such that thermals were not able to give us much by way of height. I experimented with a Blanik by a spin of the top of a winch launch which after one turn allowed recovery by 1,000 ft. before using the procedure with a student. OK in a Blanik but certainly not in some other types Despite very careful briefing a few minutes before the results were entirely different to those when entering a spin at 3,000 ft. Upon seeing the ground below them the student would immediately pull the control column right back and sometimes also move the control column away from the descending wing. It was an involuntary
Re: [Aus-soaring] spin training
Hi Harry, Merry Christmas to you. You have of course (and as usual), correctly identified the real problem. It is safe speed near the ground. Maintain that and there will be no chance of spinning. Spinning is a secondary effect of flying too slow, yet somehow it is now the spin and not the speed that is considered all important in our training system. If we want to safely train for safe speed near the ground, including spin recognition and recovery, we should be making much more use of simulators, at every level of experience. If people on the list have never tried this, visit Benalla and see what happens when you spin a Ventus 2, a K21, an Astir or an Antares. You can try all in the space of 30 minutes. It is genuinely realistic. Recover wrong (depending on the glider) and it flicks the other way.And if it turns into a spiral dive and exceeds VNE it flutters and the wings fall off. You can do a flat over-ruddered turn at any altitude including on final. No one dies, but the experience is genuine and the lesson graphic. The same by the way is true for teaching rope breaks and launch failures, on both aerotow and winch. And if anyone thinks that simulators are not putting enough pressure on, try it first. You won't make that claim after you have just killed yourself. The sim at Benalla was made out of an IS28 fuselage because it has all the controls, it has a wraparound 180 deg screen, and can be used for all phases of flight including cross-country. It cost less than $10,000 to make, uses off the shelf components and costs next to nothing to run. It isn't portable though. Oh and there is nothing at all wrong with old gliders. They are often beautiful, historic and a pleasure to fly. But basically irrelevant for training people who are going to fly modern gliders. The way forward won't be found by looking in the rear view mirror :) Cheers /Tim Shirley/ /tra dire é fare c' é mezzo il mare/ On 26/12/2014 10:15 AM, Harry wrote: Hi All, I wrote the attached article and it received a few comments, both on and off the web. I should have summarised as follows. 1. If you enter a spin a modern glider below 1,000 ft. AGL you will almost certainly die. No amount of prior training will make much difference. 2.Your first defence is to maintain safe speed near the ground. Your early training should be such that you feel very uncomfortable if below this criteria. 3. To maintain this speed you must monitor the ASI. Ground features mean relying on the horizon attitude is not accurate, particularly with modern slippery gliders. The ASI should be checked regularly and the closer to the ground and more adverse the conditions the more frequently the check. On final under turbulent conditions a quick check no more than every 5 seconds is needed to ensure safe speed is maintained. 4. Learning and practicing incipient recovery. If things go wrong incipient recovery means living to a ripe old age more certain, whether in a thermal or close to the ground. 5. Spin training helps in spins at altitude. Enter a spin below about 1,000 ft AGL in a modern glider and you will most likely be dead in about 5 seconds. Harry Medlicott Hi All, Sorry to be controversial but I believe most of our spin training is marginal in saving lives in the real world. Of far greater significance are design factors reducing the propensity of gliders to spin. Spin related accidents in Europe have substantially reduced over time. No changes in spin training but modern gliders are far more forgiving. My first club had winch launching only and every year a tug was brought in and towed gliders to 3,000 ft for spin training. After briefing, students were quite comfortable going through the standard recovery procedures. My second club was winch launching only. Often there were periods when we had students due for spin training but weather conditions were such that thermals were not able to give us much by way of height. I experimented with a Blanik by a spin of the top of a winch launch which after one turn allowed recovery by 1,000 ft. before using the procedure with a student. OK in a Blanik but certainly not in some other types Despite very careful briefing a few minutes before the results were entirely different to those when entering a spin at 3,000 ft. Upon seeing the ground below them the student would immediately pull the control column right back and sometimes also move the control column away from the descending wing. It was an involuntary reaction but the one we would use to keep the glider in a spin. So far as I am aware most spin accidents occur close to the ground, below about 1,000 ft unless one is flying a particularly nasty glider such as an IS28, which can take over 1,000 ft for the whole process. If what I am saying is correct, then what are the chances of a pilot using the correct recovery processes in a low level spin, perhaps a considerable time
RE: [Aus-soaring] Spin Training
Having gone through my training in Germany (perhaps a little more recently than Rolf?) I concur with Rolf. The general syllabus was very similar to what we have here, including incipient and full spin training. There was A LOT more theory though. I can't remember whether there was a particular emphasis on spinning being classified as an aerobatic manoeuvre though (nor whether any spins I may have experienced solo were purely accidental ;-)). The attitude of one of our instructors was that as (then) teenagers we would try things anyway when out of visual range of an instructor so he might as well show us how it's done safely and properly lest we kill ourselves going it solo. It would make us better pilots anyway. Not that he encouraged us in any way. On the contrary, he came down hard on any known transgressions. Ulrich Stauss -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of rolf a. buelter Sent: Thursday, 23 September 2004 20:31 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [Aus-soaring] Spin Training My knowledge is old but I believe still valid. 1. Spin training is done, fully developed spin is trained but emphasis is placed on recognition of incipient spin. 2. Spinning is an aerobatic manouvre. It is not permitted without the appropriate training and (aerobatic) endorsment in the license. Spinning a glider without an instructor sole is not permitted. There are pilots in Australia with more recent experience who may be able to correct me. My personal opinion is that making a pilot comfortable with the spinning characteristics of a glider will enhance chances of reasoned response and recovery. Rgds - Rolf _ Don't just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ ___ Aus-soaring mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
