Re: [Aus-soaring] Turnpoints
Incorrect. He used the moon for his diamond height gain. Sent from my iPhone On 13 Jan 2014, at 15:05, Ben Loxton blox...@gmail.com wrote: Ingo Renner has only one turnpoint. Earth. On Mon, Jan 13, 2014 at 3:54 PM, James Dutschke james.m.dutsc...@gmail.com wrote: I think they had it right with the blaniks. I don't think anyone ever had a turnpoint problem in a blanik. Sent from my iPhone On 12 Jan 2014, at 21:20, Ben Loxton blox...@gmail.com wrote: it all reminds me of a tale about a horse drawn zeppelin……. On 11 Jan 2014, at 12:35 pm, Adam Woolley go_soar...@hotmail.com wrote: Don't worry Rolf, this topic will get to team flying GFA bashing soon - then Mark Newton will step in, the cycle will continue... I was thinking the same thing..! WPP On 11 Jan 2014, at 6:49, rolf a. buelter rbuel...@hotmail.com wrote: You people are something. Somebody asks where the convention of turnpopint numbers instead of descriptors come from. Fair enough question if it rains cats and dogs outside and all other inside activities are exhausted and deadly boredom set in. Now you're suggesting that use of these numbers brings hell and damnation or at the very least makes you crash into the Atlantic or Mt Erebus or somewhere or at best loose your tail on take off. I'm surprised that nobody doug out the Gimly glider yet and suggests that if we have to use numbers they should at least be imperial. Rolf Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 09:55:54 +1000 To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net From: mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Turnpoints This is the frightening bit: the aircraft computer applied vastly less thrust Is there something wrong with having the computer work out the power setting required and have the flight crew move the throttles to the required setting? Or having an acceleration monitor with a liftoff prediction once the thing starts moving? Or having flight crew familiar enough with the aircraft to know that the thrust setting called for, at a weight you should have some feel for, seems wrong? Mike .At 09:05 AM 10/01/2014, you wrote: On 10/01/2014 8:47 AM, opsw...@bigpond.net.au wrote: If people wish to continue with using just numbers they should revisit the Air NZ accident in Antarctica. Individuals working alone, no cross checking and inputting at dark O'clock. Sooner or later you will have a very uncomfortable experience. I've seen it time and time again even in professional aviation. Yes indeed. This one was very close to home, and perilously close to being Australia's worst air disaster.   The essential message is in the first couple of paragraphs. tn ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring Borgelt Instruments - design manufacture of quality soaring instrumentation since 1978 www.borgeltinstruments.com tel: 07 4635 5784 overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784 mob: 042835 5784 : int+61-42835 5784 P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit:http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Turnpoints
it all reminds me of a tale about a horse drawn zeppelin……. On 11 Jan 2014, at 12:35 pm, Adam Woolley go_soar...@hotmail.com wrote: Don't worry Rolf, this topic will get to team flying GFA bashing soon - then Mark Newton will step in, the cycle will continue... I was thinking the same thing..! WPP On 11 Jan 2014, at 6:49, rolf a. buelter rbuel...@hotmail.com wrote: You people are something. Somebody asks where the convention of turnpopint numbers instead of descriptors come from. Fair enough question if it rains cats and dogs outside and all other inside activities are exhausted and deadly boredom set in. Now you're suggesting that use of these numbers brings hell and damnation or at the very least makes you crash into the Atlantic or Mt Erebus or somewhere or at best loose your tail on take off. I'm surprised that nobody doug out the Gimly glider yet and suggests that if we have to use numbers they should at least be imperial. Rolf Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 09:55:54 +1000 To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net From: mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Turnpoints This is the frightening bit: the aircraft computer applied vastly less thrust Is there something wrong with having the computer work out the power setting required and have the flight crew move the throttles to the required setting? Or having an acceleration monitor with a liftoff prediction once the thing starts moving? Or having flight crew familiar enough with the aircraft to know that the thrust setting called for, at a weight you should have some feel for, seems wrong? Mike .At 09:05 AM 10/01/2014, you wrote: On 10/01/2014 8:47 AM, opsw...@bigpond.net.au wrote: If people wish to continue with using just numbers they should revisit the Air NZ accident in Antarctica. Individuals working alone, no cross checking and inputting at dark O'clock. Sooner or later you will have a very uncomfortable experience. I've seen it time and time again even in professional aviation. Yes indeed. This one was very close to home, and perilously close to being Australia's worst air disaster.   The essential message is in the first couple of paragraphs. tn ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring Borgelt Instruments - design manufacture of quality soaring instrumentation since 1978 www.borgeltinstruments.com tel: 07 4635 5784 overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784 mob: 042835 5784 : int+61-42835 5784 P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit:http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Turnpoints/interface design
The problem is the limitations of the 4 or 5 button interface. The hardware to implement this is dirt cheap. In general when you have to do lots of button pushes to change a value(like selecting a turnpoint from a list) a rotary encoder is a better input device. The other problem is large turnpoint lists. If you have 1000 to 1500 points the database becomes unwieldy and the usual way of handling is to put the cursor on the first character, change to the first character of the name you want, the machine then only displays the names that begin with this then repeat for the second character. If you have fewer than 100 points this gets you to a unique name. 1000 points requires only 3 characters. With competition databases where 50 to 80 points ought to be sufficient the numbered turnpoints are quicker to select with the 4 or 5 button interface. However if the input device is a rotary encoder simply scrolling through is easy and quick and the advantage of turnpoint numbers leading the name disappears and becomes irrelevant . Something I found a little surprising was how valuable having multiple turnpoint databases resident in the instrument is. Particularly when you can change from one to the other on the fly without a power cycle. We just put the latter feature in the B600/B800. You can make the task for the day and only those points one complete database (B, C and D tasks too). This should be possible for any instrument whose database architecture is organised like this. In any case most of this turnpoint handling is now done on the ground and with SD cards can be done in the comfort of the briefing room. Unless POST tasks are brought back. When constructing arbitrary points, this can easily be done in Google Earth. If you are worried about flying to somewhere that is in the middle of a paddock or forest just choose a nearby farmhouse or road intersection as the point. It may not have a name that you know so just give one. Oz Runways lets you create custom points anywhere. Great software. We just did our first major trip away with it. Mike At 09:16 PM 11/01/2014, you wrote: I have a big preference for waypoints which use a full name, something you can look up on a map and also waypoints which are real waypoints, not some arbitrary coordinate. If you have an app which displays waypoints and which show a map or satellite image which marks the coordinate associated with the waypoints, you can easily check that the coordinate is correct the pin or marker sits on some real feature like an airstrip, silo, township etc. or can be adjusted to fit. If it's just an arbitrary point, it's impossible to check because there is nothing to see on a map. I only recently flew a task like this and most of us were unsure if we'd rounded the point or not. In this case it was because the old airstrip had overgrown but it proved the point. If you are flying long distances towards some remote airstrip, you can use some program like Ozrunways in the air to check but only if there is a real location you're aiming for. If it is just a virtual, meaningless coordinate then you are out of luck. Sure, I have the advantage of using a glide computer which displays the full name and can store an almost unlimited number of waypoints, but even so, humans find names are a lot easier to work with in almost all cases than an alpha numeric code. And I don't believe that the accuracy of waypoint lists should be compromised so that short and meaningless alpha numeric codes are used because some old or cranky glide computers are slow to operate and won't accept full names. It's like tying the world to the old MS Dos 8.3 filenames in a world where filenames can be intelligent. It is amazing how many waypoints on official lists are wrong but if they are just arbitrary points, there is no way of checking with any software or map and it is hardly surprising. D ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring Borgelt Instruments - design manufacture of quality soaring instrumentation since 1978 www.borgeltinstruments.com tel: 07 4635 5784 overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784 mob: 042835 5784: int+61-42835 5784 P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Turnpoints/interface design
The LX8000 etc. all have rotary encoders so selecting, editing, renaming etc. even in flight, is easy. You can have dozens of waypoint lists in the device and just select an active one, so almost all your requirements are met. The problem I have found with getting lat and long through Google Earth is when you try and export the data, either as copy and paste or as KML files into SeeYou. Using copy and paste is slow but SeeYou requires the fields to be entered on by one as DDD then or whatever you are using. I did not find a method of pasting directly. The alternative is importing a CUP file. CUP is 99% excellent but the final 1% is really at least 110% useless… it's this. The coordinate format in a CUP file, from memory, is something like DDMM. or DDDMMM.. The decimal point between degrees and minutes is missing so you cannot directly use anything unless you convert the coordinate data using a spreadsheet, or translate the KML file using something like GPSBabel, or hand tool your own thing. After doing all the others, I chose hand-tooling as being the best option. I now have a list of waypoints. I can click on one and it shows the waypoint on a map or satellite image. Up to this point, it is similar to Google Earth. However you can click on the map view to adjust the point to the correct location and this will update the waypoint coord in the list. Nothing revolutionary maybe, but nothing I have seen in SeeYou or similar. Another thing must be mentioned and that is the CUPX format with the included image of the waypoint in the list. Where this is a landing strip, you can include an image directly or something with an overlay showing the strip directions and taxiways etc. This is a huge thing at the end of a long leg over remote terrain or when landing at a busy place like Broken Hill in a sailplane where there is a lot of RPT traffic. If you're only flying local tasks perhaps this kind of thing might not be attractive but the option of showing photographs of possible outlanding sites might be very interesting. D ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Turnpoints
I think they had it right with the blaniks. I don't think anyone ever had a turnpoint problem in a blanik. Sent from my iPhone On 12 Jan 2014, at 21:20, Ben Loxton blox...@gmail.com wrote: it all reminds me of a tale about a horse drawn zeppelin……. On 11 Jan 2014, at 12:35 pm, Adam Woolley go_soar...@hotmail.com wrote: Don't worry Rolf, this topic will get to team flying GFA bashing soon - then Mark Newton will step in, the cycle will continue... I was thinking the same thing..! WPP On 11 Jan 2014, at 6:49, rolf a. buelter rbuel...@hotmail.com wrote: You people are something. Somebody asks where the convention of turnpopint numbers instead of descriptors come from. Fair enough question if it rains cats and dogs outside and all other inside activities are exhausted and deadly boredom set in. Now you're suggesting that use of these numbers brings hell and damnation or at the very least makes you crash into the Atlantic or Mt Erebus or somewhere or at best loose your tail on take off. I'm surprised that nobody doug out the Gimly glider yet and suggests that if we have to use numbers they should at least be imperial. Rolf Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 09:55:54 +1000 To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net From: mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Turnpoints This is the frightening bit: the aircraft computer applied vastly less thrust Is there something wrong with having the computer work out the power setting required and have the flight crew move the throttles to the required setting? Or having an acceleration monitor with a liftoff prediction once the thing starts moving? Or having flight crew familiar enough with the aircraft to know that the thrust setting called for, at a weight you should have some feel for, seems wrong? Mike .At 09:05 AM 10/01/2014, you wrote: On 10/01/2014 8:47 AM, opsw...@bigpond.net.au wrote: If people wish to continue with using just numbers they should revisit the Air NZ accident in Antarctica. Individuals working alone, no cross checking and inputting at dark O'clock. Sooner or later you will have a very uncomfortable experience. I've seen it time and time again even in professional aviation. Yes indeed. This one was very close to home, and perilously close to being Australia's worst air disaster.   The essential message is in the first couple of paragraphs. tn ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring Borgelt Instruments - design manufacture of quality soaring instrumentation since 1978 www.borgeltinstruments.com tel: 07 4635 5784 overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784 mob: 042835 5784 : int+61-42835 5784 P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit:http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Turnpoints
Ingo Renner has only one turnpoint. Earth. On Mon, Jan 13, 2014 at 3:54 PM, James Dutschke james.m.dutsc...@gmail.comwrote: I think they had it right with the blaniks. I don't think anyone ever had a turnpoint problem in a blanik. Sent from my iPhone On 12 Jan 2014, at 21:20, Ben Loxton blox...@gmail.com wrote: it all reminds me of a tale about a horse drawn zeppelin……. On 11 Jan 2014, at 12:35 pm, Adam Woolley go_soar...@hotmail.com wrote: Don't worry Rolf, this topic will get to team flying GFA bashing soon - then Mark Newton will step in, the cycle will continue... I was thinking the same thing..! WPP On 11 Jan 2014, at 6:49, rolf a. buelter rbuel...@hotmail.com wrote: You people are something. Somebody asks where the convention of turnpopint numbers instead of descriptors come from. Fair enough question if it rains cats and dogs outside and all other inside activities are exhausted and deadly boredom set in. Now you're suggesting that use of these numbers brings hell and damnation or at the very least makes you crash into the Atlantic or Mt Erebus or somewhere or at best loose your tail on take off. I'm surprised that nobody doug out the Gimly glider yet and suggests that if we have to use numbers they should at least be imperial. Rolf -- Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 09:55:54 +1000 To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net From: mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Turnpoints This is the frightening bit: the aircraft computer applied vastly less thrust Is there something wrong with having the computer work out the power setting required and have the flight crew move the throttles to the required setting? Or having an acceleration monitor with a liftoff prediction once the thing starts moving? Or having flight crew familiar enough with the aircraft to know that the thrust setting called for, at a weight you should have some feel for, seems wrong? Mike .At 09:05 AM 10/01/2014, you wrote: On 10/01/2014 8:47 AM, opsw...@bigpond.net.au wrote: If people wish to continue with using just numbers they should revisit the Air NZ accident in Antarctica. Individuals working alone, no cross checking and inputting at dark O'clock. Sooner or later you will have a very uncomfortable experience. I've seen it time and time again even in professional aviation. Yes indeed. This onehttp://www.smh.com.au/travel/travel-news/wrong-computer-numbers-caused-emirates-jet-to-almost-crash-at-melbourne-airport-20090430-ao17.html was very close to home, and perilously close to being Australia's worst air disaster.   The essential message is in the first couple of paragraphs. tn ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring *Borgelt Instruments* - *design manufacture of quality soaring instrumentation since 1978* www.borgeltinstruments.com tel: 07 4635 5784 overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784 mob: 042835 5784 : int+61-42835 5784 P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit:http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Turnpoints
I have a big preference for waypoints which use a full name, something you can look up on a map and also waypoints which are real waypoints, not some arbitrary coordinate. If you have an app which displays waypoints and which show a map or satellite image which marks the coordinate associated with the waypoints, you can easily check that the coordinate is correct… the pin or marker sits on some real feature like an airstrip, silo, township etc. or can be adjusted to fit. If it's just an arbitrary point, it's impossible to check because there is nothing to see on a map. I only recently flew a task like this and most of us were unsure if we'd rounded the point or not. In this case it was because the old airstrip had overgrown but it proved the point. If you are flying long distances towards some remote airstrip, you can use some program like Ozrunways in the air to check… but only if there is a real location you're aiming for. If it is just a virtual, meaningless coordinate then you are out of luck. Sure, I have the advantage of using a glide computer which displays the full name and can store an almost unlimited number of waypoints, but even so, humans find names are a lot easier to work with in almost all cases than an alpha numeric code. And I don't believe that the accuracy of waypoint lists should be compromised so that short and meaningless alpha numeric codes are used because some old or cranky glide computers are slow to operate and won't accept full names. It's like tying the world to the old MS Dos 8.3 filenames in a world where filenames can be intelligent. It is amazing how many waypoints on official lists are wrong but if they are just arbitrary points, there is no way of checking with any software or map and it is hardly surprising. D ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Turnpoints
Don't worry Rolf, this topic will get to team flying GFA bashing soon - then Mark Newton will step in, the cycle will continue... I was thinking the same thing..! WPP On 11 Jan 2014, at 6:49, rolf a. buelter rbuel...@hotmail.com wrote: You people are something. Somebody asks where the convention of turnpopint numbers instead of descriptors come from. Fair enough question if it rains cats and dogs outside and all other inside activities are exhausted and deadly boredom set in. Now you're suggesting that use of these numbers brings hell and damnation or at the very least makes you crash into the Atlantic or Mt Erebus or somewhere or at best loose your tail on take off. I'm surprised that nobody doug out the Gimly glider yet and suggests that if we have to use numbers they should at least be imperial. Rolf Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 09:55:54 +1000 To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net From: mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Turnpoints This is the frightening bit: the aircraft computer applied vastly less thrust Is there something wrong with having the computer work out the power setting required and have the flight crew move the throttles to the required setting? Or having an acceleration monitor with a liftoff prediction once the thing starts moving? Or having flight crew familiar enough with the aircraft to know that the thrust setting called for, at a weight you should have some feel for, seems wrong? Mike .At 09:05 AM 10/01/2014, you wrote: On 10/01/2014 8:47 AM, opsw...@bigpond.net.au wrote: If people wish to continue with using just numbers they should revisit the Air NZ accident in Antarctica. Individuals working alone, no cross checking and inputting at dark O'clock. Sooner or later you will have a very uncomfortable experience. I've seen it time and time again even in professional aviation. Yes indeed. This one was very close to home, and perilously close to being Australia's worst air disaster.   The essential message is in the first couple of paragraphs. tn ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring Borgelt Instruments - design manufacture of quality soaring instrumentation since 1978 www.borgeltinstruments.com tel: 07 4635 5784 overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784 mob: 042835 5784 : int+61-42835 5784 P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Turnpoints
If people wish to continue with using just numbers they should revisit the Air NZ accident in Antarctica. Individuals working alone, no cross checking and inputting at dark O'clock. Sooner or later you will have a very uncomfortable experience. I've seen it time and time again even in professional aviation. What are you going to do when the computer fails?? Lost again??? Ron, you forgot to mention fuel trimmers with the power levers.. Peter Heath Ron Sanders resand...@gmail.com wrote: = Dear Matt, COONAM IS different from COONAB. I use a volkslogger so I know. It is interesting as to how many responses a simple question gets! I have a small preference for names rather than numbers, my understanding of the geography of the world IS based on names rather than numbers but I am absolutely tired if being dictated to by the limits of the computer world. It was interesting to watch the breifings at the recent nationals, the first Aussie comp I have attended for years, to note that it was almost a prerequisite that you had done you own prior briefing using the same tools as the organisation did. I just compared this to the old school type like I received recently at the South African nationals from Sven Olivier and like I used to receive from dear Alan Woolley. The guys took in all the data they had available to them and then using their local knowledge and experience gave a good high probability FORECAST. I definitely understand that my time has been and gone but I believe in the basics and basically the accident of Asiana recently and the notorious Air France 447 should never have happened. Basically you push the trust levers forward if you want to go faster, funny it is a bit like putting your foot on the accelerator. I also understand that this sounds like that rambling and digressions of an old man but the encroachment of computers and worse our blind faith in them is insidious. See ya later On 9 January 2014 06:39, Matt Gage m...@knightschallenge.com wrote: My understanding was that the official turn point list was now the file supplied by the organisers anyway. This is usually a small subset of the local database without points close together. Even with a lack of multiple points in the same location, there is scope for confusion. I am aware of someone entering COONAMBLE into a task instead of COONABARABRAN as the device only showed the first 6 characters ! And then they flew the wrong task. From experience, entering a task using the numbers is far quicker and far less error prone, particularly if having to do it in the air (after my oudie crashed and lost the task), which means less time with head in the cockpit ! As far as getting an idea of what the task is, that is available from the task sheet and by drawing it on a map. Remember, the task is for the benefit of the competitors. The fact that any of us looking from home, work, etc can see what they are doing is a bonus. We should NEVER look to define tasks for the benefit of spectators ahead of the competitors. I was actually opposed to this change until I got to use the new names Matt On 8 Jan 2014, at 19:29 , Ross McLean ross...@bigpond.net.au wrote: Oh Mike, the probability for error goes through the roof when you have to enter the actual Lat and Long of the turn points. I think you must have your tongue firmly planted in your cheek on that answer. LOL ROSS _ From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Mike Borgelt Sent: Wednesday, 8 January 2014 11:37 AM To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Turnpoints Presumably the turnpoint comes with the lat and long on the official list. That removes any ambiguity. So, no, you don't have a point in the days of GPS and databases. Mike At 11:29 AM 8/01/2014, you wrote: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary==_NextPart_000_0191_01CF0C64.EE24B640 Content-Language: en-au How is having a name instead of a number likely to lead to more confusion in the official contest turnpoint database or which turnpoint has been set? · Jandowie, Jandowie North, Jandowie Crossing · Bobedah Town Hall, Bobedah Road Junc · Boggabilla, Boggabri · Carinda East, Carinda Swim Pool · Collie A/F, Collie Road Junc · Condobolin TerminlBldng, Condobolin Silo · Coonabarabran, Coonabarabran Silo · Coonamble TerminlBldng, Coonamble Silo, Coonamble West · Forbes A/F, Forbes Silo · Gilgandra A/F, Gilgandra TerminlBldng, Gilgandra Beehive Silo · Temora A/F, Temora Silo · Tomingley Road Junction, Tomingley West (Silo)... I could go on but you probably get the idea
Re: [Aus-soaring] Turnpoints
On 10/01/2014 8:47 AM, opsw...@bigpond.net.au wrote: If people wish to continue with using just numbers they should revisit the Air NZ accident in Antarctica. Individuals working alone, no cross checking and inputting at dark O'clock. Sooner or later you will have a very uncomfortable experience. I've seen it time and time again even in professional aviation. Yes indeed. This one http://www.smh.com.au/travel/travel-news/wrong-computer-numbers-caused-emirates-jet-to-almost-crash-at-melbourne-airport-20090430-ao17.html was very close to home, and perilously close to being Australia's worst air disaster.The essential message is in the first couple of paragraphs. tn ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Turnpoints
This is the frightening bit: the aircraft computer applied vastly less thrust Is there something wrong with having the computer work out the power setting required and have the flight crew move the throttles to the required setting? Or having an acceleration monitor with a liftoff prediction once the thing starts moving? Or having flight crew familiar enough with the aircraft to know that the thrust setting called for, at a weight you should have some feel for, seems wrong? Mike .At 09:05 AM 10/01/2014, you wrote: On 10/01/2014 8:47 AM, mailto:opsw...@bigpond.net.auopsw...@bigpond.net.au wrote: If people wish to continue with using just numbers they should revisit the Air NZ accident in Antarctica. Individuals working alone, no cross checking and inputting at dark O'clock. Sooner or later you will have a very uncomfortable experience. I've seen it time and time again even in professional aviation. Yes indeed. http://www.smh.com.au/travel/travel-news/wrong-computer-numbers-caused-emirates-jet-to-almost-crash-at-melbourne-airport-20090430-ao17.htmlThis one was very close to home, and perilously close to being Australia's worst air disaster.   The essential message is in the first couple of paragraphs. tn ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring Borgelt Instruments - design manufacture of quality soaring instrumentation since 1978 www.borgeltinstruments.com tel: 07 4635 5784 overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784 mob: 042835 5784: int+61-42835 5784 P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Turnpoints
Exactly correct Ron. But we want them to be cheap too so there eventually will be a compromise somewhere. I am not justifying the GPS mfrs simply discussing why the number/TP name system works well for Competitions. It removes ambiguity. ROSS _ -Original Message- From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Ron Sanders Sent: Wednesday, 8 January 2014 11:37 AM To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Turnpoints The confusion only comes from the space available for the name being limited by the computer. In the English language there is no confusion between Bobedah road junction and Bobedah Town hall. I thought computers were supposed to be mankind's servant not the other way around. Ron On 8 January 2014 09:29, Ross McLean ross...@bigpond.net.au wrote: How is having a name instead of a number likely to lead to more confusion in the official contest turnpoint database or which turnpoint has been set? · Jandowie, Jandowie North, Jandowie Crossing · Bobedah Town Hall, Bobedah Road Junc · Boggabilla, Boggabri · Carinda East, Carinda Swim Pool · Collie A/F, Collie Road Junc · Condobolin TerminlBldng, Condobolin Silo · Coonabarabran, Coonabarabran Silo · Coonamble TerminlBldng, Coonamble Silo, Coonamble West · Forbes A/F, Forbes Silo · Gilgandra A/F, Gilgandra TerminlBldng, Gilgandra Beehive Silo · Temora A/F, Temora Silo · Tomingley Road Junction, Tomingley West (Silo)... I could go on but you probably get the idea by now Mike. ROSS __ ___ From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Mike Borgelt Sent: Wednesday, 8 January 2014 10:45 AM To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Turnpoints Depends on the device and how the database is organised and how you choose turnpoints. How is having a name instead of a number likely to lead to more confusion in the official contest turnpoint database or which turnpoint has been set? Presumably the names are spelled correctly and the coordinates supplied by the organisers. Mike .At 10:30 AM 8/01/2014, you wrote: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary==_NextPart_000_0162_01CF0C5C.A9DFE160 Content-Language: en-au From a competitor's point of view the new turnpoint naming convention of number/name is great as it avoids any possible confusion regarding which turnpoint has been set for the task. Also makes it much easier to input the task accurately into the logger/flight computer/gps whatever. Similarly, in the air they are really much easier and faster to use. ROSS __ ___ From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [ mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Mandy Temple Sent: Wednesday, 8 January 2014 9:45 AM To: 'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.' Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Turnpoints The names are a combined number and name, not just a number. eg 47PATA MT From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [ mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Mike Borgelt Sent: Wednesday, 8 January 2014 8:49 AM To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Turnpoints With the added advantage that casual visitors to the contest have no idea where the task is for the day :-) Mike At 07:06 PM 7/01/2014, you wrote: Hi Ron, apparently it was requested by the pilots at a recent nats pilot meeting (maybe Benalla) and is now in the guidelines. Makes inputting tasks to a device easier. Regards Grant. Grant Hudson On 7 Jan 2014, at 19:21, Ron Sanders resand...@gmail.com wrote: Everybody just a question about the arrangement of turn points. I noticed at Kingaroy and now at Waikerie that turn points are being described primarily by numbers these days. I was wondering if any body can tell me why?? Don't care one way or the other just interested to know if some body has made some kind of policy decision. Ron ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http
Re: [Aus-soaring] Turnpoints
Oh Mike, the probability for error goes through the roof when you have to enter the actual Lat and Long of the turn points. I think you must have your tongue firmly planted in your cheek on that answer. LOL ROSS _ From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Mike Borgelt Sent: Wednesday, 8 January 2014 11:37 AM To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Turnpoints Presumably the turnpoint comes with the lat and long on the official list. That removes any ambiguity. So, no, you don't have a point in the days of GPS and databases. Mike At 11:29 AM 8/01/2014, you wrote: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary==_NextPart_000_0191_01CF0C64.EE24B640 Content-Language: en-au How is having a name instead of a number likely to lead to more confusion in the official contest turnpoint database or which turnpoint has been set? . Jandowie, Jandowie North, Jandowie Crossing . Bobedah Town Hall, Bobedah Road Junc . Boggabilla, Boggabri . Carinda East, Carinda Swim Pool . Collie A/F, Collie Road Junc . Condobolin TerminlBldng, Condobolin Silo . Coonabarabran, Coonabarabran Silo . Coonamble TerminlBldng, Coonamble Silo, Coonamble West . Forbes A/F, Forbes Silo . Gilgandra A/F, Gilgandra TerminlBldng, Gilgandra Beehive Silo . Temora A/F, Temora Silo . Tomingley Road Junction, Tomingley West (Silo)... I could go on but you probably get the idea by now Mike. ROSS _ From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [ mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net ] On Behalf Of Mike Borgelt Sent: Wednesday, 8 January 2014 10:45 AM To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Turnpoints Depends on the device and how the database is organised and how you choose turnpoints. How is having a name instead of a number likely to lead to more confusion in the official contest turnpoint database or which turnpoint has been set? Presumably the names are spelled correctly and the coordinates supplied by the organisers. Mike .At 10:30 AM 8/01/2014, you wrote: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary==_NextPart_000_0162_01CF0C5C.A9DFE160 Content-Language: en-au From a competitor's point of view the new turnpoint naming convention of number/name is great as it avoids any possible confusion regarding which turnpoint has been set for the task. Also makes it much easier to input the task accurately into the logger/flight computer/gps whatever. Similarly, in the air they are really much easier and faster to use. ROSS _ From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [ mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Mandy Temple Sent: Wednesday, 8 January 2014 9:45 AM To: 'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.' Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Turnpoints The names are a combined number and name, not just a number. eg 47PATA MT From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [ mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Mike Borgelt Sent: Wednesday, 8 January 2014 8:49 AM To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Turnpoints With the added advantage that casual visitors to the contest have no idea where the task is for the day :-) Mike At 07:06 PM 7/01/2014, you wrote: Hi Ron, apparently it was requested by the pilots at a recent nats pilot meeting (maybe Benalla) and is now in the guidelines. Makes inputting tasks to a device easier. Regards Grant. Grant Hudson On 7 Jan 2014, at 19:21, Ron Sanders resand...@gmail.com wrote: Everybody just a question about the arrangement of turn points. I noticed at Kingaroy and now at Waikerie that turn points are being described primarily by numbers these days. I was wondering if any body can tell me why?? Don't care one way or the other just interested to know if some body has made some kind of policy decision. Ron ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http
Re: [Aus-soaring] Turnpoints
My understanding was that the official turn point list was now the file supplied by the organisers anyway. This is usually a small subset of the local database without points close together. Even with a lack of multiple points in the same location, there is scope for confusion. I am aware of someone entering COONAMBLE into a task instead of COONABARABRAN as the device only showed the first 6 characters ! And then they flew the wrong task. From experience, entering a task using the numbers is far quicker and far less error prone, particularly if having to do it in the air (after my oudie crashed and lost the task), which means less time with head in the cockpit ! As far as getting an idea of what the task is, that is available from the task sheet and by drawing it on a map. Remember, the task is for the benefit of the competitors. The fact that any of us looking from home, work, etc can see what they are doing is a bonus. We should NEVER look to define tasks for the benefit of spectators ahead of the competitors. I was actually opposed to this change until I got to use the new names Matt On 8 Jan 2014, at 19:29 , Ross McLean ross...@bigpond.net.au wrote: Oh Mike, the probability for error goes through the roof when you have to enter the actual Lat and Long of the turn points. I think you must have your tongue firmly planted in your cheek on that answer. LOL ROSS _ From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Mike Borgelt Sent: Wednesday, 8 January 2014 11:37 AM To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Turnpoints Presumably the turnpoint comes with the lat and long on the official list. That removes any ambiguity. So, no, you don't have a point in the days of GPS and databases. Mike At 11:29 AM 8/01/2014, you wrote: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary==_NextPart_000_0191_01CF0C64.EE24B640 Content-Language: en-au How is having a name instead of a number likely to lead to more confusion in the official contest turnpoint database or which turnpoint has been set? · Jandowie, Jandowie North, Jandowie Crossing · Bobedah Town Hall, Bobedah Road Junc · Boggabilla, Boggabri · Carinda East, Carinda Swim Pool · Collie A/F, Collie Road Junc · Condobolin TerminlBldng, Condobolin Silo · Coonabarabran, Coonabarabran Silo · Coonamble TerminlBldng, Coonamble Silo, Coonamble West · Forbes A/F, Forbes Silo · Gilgandra A/F, Gilgandra TerminlBldng, Gilgandra Beehive Silo · Temora A/F, Temora Silo · Tomingley Road Junction, Tomingley West (Silo)... I could go on but you probably get the idea by now Mike. ROSS _ From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [ mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Mike Borgelt Sent: Wednesday, 8 January 2014 10:45 AM To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Turnpoints Depends on the device and how the database is organised and how you choose turnpoints. How is having a name instead of a number likely to lead to more confusion in the official contest turnpoint database or which turnpoint has been set? Presumably the names are spelled correctly and the coordinates supplied by the organisers. Mike .At 10:30 AM 8/01/2014, you wrote: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary==_NextPart_000_0162_01CF0C5C.A9DFE160 Content-Language: en-au From a competitor's point of view the new turnpoint naming convention of number/name is great as it avoids any possible confusion regarding which turnpoint has been set for the task. Also makes it much easier to input the task accurately into the logger/flight computer/gps whatever. Similarly, in the air they are really much easier and faster to use. ROSS _ From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [ mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Mandy Temple Sent: Wednesday, 8 January 2014 9:45 AM To: 'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.' Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Turnpoints The names are a combined number and name, not just a number. eg 47PATA MT From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [ mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Mike Borgelt Sent: Wednesday, 8 January 2014 8:49 AM To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Turnpoints With the added
Re: [Aus-soaring] Turnpoints
Dear Matt, COONAM IS different from COONAB. I use a volkslogger so I know. It is interesting as to how many responses a simple question gets! I have a small preference for names rather than numbers, my understanding of the geography of the world IS based on names rather than numbers but I am absolutely tired if being dictated to by the limits of the computer world. It was interesting to watch the breifings at the recent nationals, the first Aussie comp I have attended for years, to note that it was almost a prerequisite that you had done you own prior briefing using the same tools as the organisation did. I just compared this to the old school type like I received recently at the South African nationals from Sven Olivier and like I used to receive from dear Alan Woolley. The guys took in all the data they had available to them and then using their local knowledge and experience gave a good high probability FORECAST. I definitely understand that my time has been and gone but I believe in the basics and basically the accident of Asiana recently and the notorious Air France 447 should never have happened. Basically you push the trust levers forward if you want to go faster, funny it is a bit like putting your foot on the accelerator. I also understand that this sounds like that rambling and digressions of an old man but the encroachment of computers and worse our blind faith in them is insidious. See ya later On 9 January 2014 06:39, Matt Gage m...@knightschallenge.com wrote: My understanding was that the official turn point list was now the file supplied by the organisers anyway. This is usually a small subset of the local database without points close together. Even with a lack of multiple points in the same location, there is scope for confusion. I am aware of someone entering COONAMBLE into a task instead of COONABARABRAN as the device only showed the first 6 characters ! And then they flew the wrong task. From experience, entering a task using the numbers is far quicker and far less error prone, particularly if having to do it in the air (after my oudie crashed and lost the task), which means less time with head in the cockpit ! As far as getting an idea of what the task is, that is available from the task sheet and by drawing it on a map. Remember, the task is for the benefit of the competitors. The fact that any of us looking from home, work, etc can see what they are doing is a bonus. We should NEVER look to define tasks for the benefit of spectators ahead of the competitors. I was actually opposed to this change until I got to use the new names Matt On 8 Jan 2014, at 19:29 , Ross McLean ross...@bigpond.net.au wrote: Oh Mike, the probability for error goes through the roof when you have to enter the actual Lat and Long of the turn points. I think you must have your tongue firmly planted in your cheek on that answer. LOL ROSS _ From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Mike Borgelt Sent: Wednesday, 8 January 2014 11:37 AM To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Turnpoints Presumably the turnpoint comes with the lat and long on the official list. That removes any ambiguity. So, no, you don't have a point in the days of GPS and databases. Mike At 11:29 AM 8/01/2014, you wrote: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary==_NextPart_000_0191_01CF0C64.EE24B640 Content-Language: en-au How is having a name instead of a number likely to lead to more confusion in the official contest turnpoint database or which turnpoint has been set? · Jandowie, Jandowie North, Jandowie Crossing · Bobedah Town Hall, Bobedah Road Junc · Boggabilla, Boggabri · Carinda East, Carinda Swim Pool · Collie A/F, Collie Road Junc · Condobolin TerminlBldng, Condobolin Silo · Coonabarabran, Coonabarabran Silo · Coonamble TerminlBldng, Coonamble Silo, Coonamble West · Forbes A/F, Forbes Silo · Gilgandra A/F, Gilgandra TerminlBldng, Gilgandra Beehive Silo · Temora A/F, Temora Silo · Tomingley Road Junction, Tomingley West (Silo)... I could go on but you probably get the idea by now Mike. ROSS _ From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [ mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Mike Borgelt Sent: Wednesday, 8 January 2014 10:45 AM To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Turnpoints Depends on the device and how the database is organised and how you choose turnpoints. How is having a name instead of a number likely to lead
Re: [Aus-soaring] Turnpoints
Ron Sanders said: I also understand that this sounds like that rambling and digressions of an old man but the encroachment of computers and worse our blind faith in them is insidious. - The Dictionary says: re.ac.tion.ar.y (rhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/emacr.gif-http://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/abreve.gifkh ttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/prime.gifshhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/schwa.gif-nhtt p://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/ebreve.gifrhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/lprime.gifhttp:/ /img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/emacr.gif) adj. Characterized by reaction, especially opposition to progress or liberalism; extremely conservative. n. pl. re.ac.tion.ar.ies An opponent of progress or liberalism; an extreme conservative. -Original Message- From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Ron Sanders Sent: Thursday, 9 January 2014 1:08 PM To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Turnpoints Dear Matt, COONAM IS different from COONAB. I use a volkslogger so I know. It is interesting as to how many responses a simple question gets! I have a small preference for names rather than numbers, my understanding of the geography of the world IS based on names rather than numbers but I am absolutely tired if being dictated to by the limits of the computer world. It was interesting to watch the breifings at the recent nationals, the first Aussie comp I have attended for years, to note that it was almost a prerequisite that you had done you own prior briefing using the same tools as the organisation did. I just compared this to the old school type like I received recently at the South African nationals from Sven Olivier and like I used to receive from dear Alan Woolley. The guys took in all the data they had available to them and then using their local knowledge and experience gave a good high probability FORECAST. I definitely understand that my time has been and gone but I believe in the basics and basically the accident of Asiana recently and the notorious Air France 447 should never have happened. Basically you push the trust levers forward if you want to go faster, funny it is a bit like putting your foot on the accelerator. I also understand that this sounds like that rambling and digressions of an old man but the encroachment of computers and worse our blind faith in them is insidious. See ya later On 9 January 2014 06:39, Matt Gage mailto:m...@knightschallenge.com m...@knightschallenge.com wrote: My understanding was that the official turn point list was now the file supplied by the organisers anyway. This is usually a small subset of the local database without points close together. Even with a lack of multiple points in the same location, there is scope for confusion. I am aware of someone entering COONAMBLE into a task instead of COONABARABRAN as the device only showed the first 6 characters ! And then they flew the wrong task. From experience, entering a task using the numbers is far quicker and far less error prone, particularly if having to do it in the air (after my oudie crashed and lost the task), which means less time with head in the cockpit ! As far as getting an idea of what the task is, that is available from the task sheet and by drawing it on a map. Remember, the task is for the benefit of the competitors. The fact that any of us looking from home, work, etc can see what they are doing is a bonus. We should NEVER look to define tasks for the benefit of spectators ahead of the competitors. I was actually opposed to this change until I got to use the new names Matt On 8 Jan 2014, at 19:29 , Ross McLean mailto:ross...@bigpond.net.au ross...@bigpond.net.au wrote: Oh Mike, the probability for error goes through the roof when you have to enter the actual Lat and Long of the turn points. I think you must have your tongue firmly planted in your cheek on that answer. LOL ROSS __ ___ From: mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [ mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Mike Borgelt Sent: Wednesday, 8 January 2014 11:37 AM To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Turnpoints Presumably the turnpoint comes with the lat and long on the official list. That removes any ambiguity. So, no, you don't have a point in the days of GPS and databases. Mike At 11:29 AM 8/01/2014, you wrote: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary==_NextPart_000_0191_01CF0C64
Re: [Aus-soaring] Turnpoints
Yeah a Luddite! On 9 January 2014 11:58, Ross McLean ross...@bigpond.net.au wrote: *Ron Sanders said:* ** I also understand that this sounds like that rambling and digressions of an old man but the encroachment of computers and worse our blind faith in them is insidious. - *The Dictionary says:* *re·ac·tion·ar·y* (r[image: http://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/emacr.gif]-[image: http://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/abreve.gif]k[image: http://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/prime.gif]sh[image: http://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/schwa.gif]-n[image: http://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/ebreve.gif]r[image: http://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/lprime.gif][image: http://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/emacr.gif]) *adj.* Characterized by reaction, especially opposition to progress or liberalism; extremely conservative. *n.* *pl.* *re·ac·tion·ar·ies* An opponent of progress or liberalism; an extreme conservative. -Original Message- From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Ron Sanders Sent: Thursday, 9 January 2014 1:08 PM To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Turnpoints Dear Matt, COONAM IS different from COONAB. I use a volkslogger so I know. It is interesting as to how many responses a simple question gets! I have a small preference for names rather than numbers, my understanding of the geography of the world IS based on names rather than numbers but I am absolutely tired if being dictated to by the limits of the computer world. It was interesting to watch the breifings at the recent nationals, the first Aussie comp I have attended for years, to note that it was almost a prerequisite that you had done you own prior briefing using the same tools as the organisation did. I just compared this to the old school type like I received recently at the South African nationals from Sven Olivier and like I used to receive from dear Alan Woolley. The guys took in all the data they had available to them and then using their local knowledge and experience gave a good high probability FORECAST. I definitely understand that my time has been and gone but I believe in the basics and basically the accident of Asiana recently and the notorious Air France 447 should never have happened. Basically you push the trust levers forward if you want to go faster, funny it is a bit like putting your foot on the accelerator. I also understand that this sounds like that rambling and digressions of an old man but the encroachment of computers and worse our blind faith in them is insidious. See ya later On 9 January 2014 06:39, Matt Gage m...@knightschallenge.com wrote: My understanding was that the official turn point list was now the file supplied by the organisers anyway. This is usually a small subset of the local database without points close together. Even with a lack of multiple points in the same location, there is scope for confusion. I am aware of someone entering COONAMBLE into a task instead of COONABARABRAN as the device only showed the first 6 characters ! And then they flew the wrong task. From experience, entering a task using the numbers is far quicker and far less error prone, particularly if having to do it in the air (after my oudie crashed and lost the task), which means less time with head in the cockpit ! As far as getting an idea of what the task is, that is available from the task sheet and by drawing it on a map. Remember, the task is for the benefit of the competitors. The fact that any of us looking from home, work, etc can see what they are doing is a bonus. We should NEVER look to define tasks for the benefit of spectators ahead of the competitors. I was actually opposed to this change until I got to use the new names Matt On 8 Jan 2014, at 19:29 , Ross McLean ross...@bigpond.net.au wrote: Oh Mike, the probability for error goes through the roof when you have to enter the actual Lat and Long of the turn points. I think you must have your tongue firmly planted in your cheek on that answer. LOL ROSS __ ___ From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.netaus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Mike Borgelt Sent: Wednesday, 8 January 2014 11:37 AM To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Turnpoints Presumably the turnpoint comes with the lat and long on the official list. That removes any ambiguity. So, no, you don't have a point in the days of GPS and databases. Mike At 11:29 AM 8/01/2014, you
Re: [Aus-soaring] Turnpoints
At 08:39 AM 9/01/2014, you wrote: My understanding was that the official turn point list was now the file supplied by the organisers anyway. This is usually a small subset of the local database without points close together. Correct. I'm having difficulty understanding why numbers are preferable to alphabetical names unless you don't know the alphabet. Even with a lack of multiple points in the same location, there is scope for confusion. I am aware of someone entering COONAMBLE into a task instead of COONABARABRAN as the device only showed the first 6 characters ! And then they flew the wrong task. Obviously this person had a complete lack of situational awareness. Deserves everything he or she got. Might be an idea to roughly draw on a real paper map and see if it matches the shape on the contest officials' board. You really need a sanity check on what a computer tells you. In any case if your particular device is limited to the number of characters it can display you can edit the database and remove any name ambiguity. CNABAR ought to do it in the above case. Anyway as Ron pointed out you are wrong anyway as 6 letters removes the ambiguity. Legally you probably should be carrying a paper map and ERC Low unless you are running OZ Runways on an iPad. From experience, entering a task using the numbers is far quicker and far less error prone, particularly if having to do it in the air (after my oudie crashed and lost the task), which means less time with head in the cockpit ! In the B600/B800 the task can be entered at briefing on the SD card. It doesn't go away if the power gets interrupted and systems that don't run on top of a version of Windows/Android/Apple OS are much less likely to crash. Having visited Waikerie last weekend and talking to pilots the AAT does result in lots of pilot workload and interaction with the moving map computer and lots of head in cockpit time particularly when also trying to find out what pilots around you are doing by looking at their Flarms. Let alone trying to optimise the last turn while trying to outguess an algorithm whose logic you don't know. As far as getting an idea of what the task is, that is available from the task sheet and by drawing it on a map. Remember, the task is for the benefit of the competitors. The fact that any of us looking from home, work, etc can see what they are doing is a bonus. We should NEVER look to define tasks for the benefit of spectators ahead of the competitors. Surely easy enough to define in terms of the encrypted contest name plus plain language. Then everyone is happy. I agree about the task being for the competitors. Make it too arcane for outsiders though and you eventually run out of competitors. Likewise the rules should not encourage taking less than the safest option. One GP I saw had a penalty for NOT landing straight ahead. I saw two potential spin ins to the tie down area. Plain dumb and the organisers should have known better. It was to create a spectacle for the spectators. Sure could have been. The 3rd day at Waikerie had the front go through as the pack were finishing into a very strong and gusty headwind. Some really marginal flops over the fence. A 3km finish circle with no minimum altitude doesn't help as your best score is by using your safety margin to arrive there ar high speed and low altitude. Works fine with a tailwind or no wind. One pilot I talked to the next day suggested finishing at 1500 feet over the middle of the airfield. This conforms with the book arrival for powered aircraft and gives plenty of time and energy to sort out the landings. The spectators can actually see the finishes too. Mike Borgelt Instruments - design manufacture of quality soaring instrumentation since 1978 www.borgeltinstruments.com tel: 07 4635 5784 overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784 mob: 042835 5784: int+61-42835 5784 P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Turnpoints
It still amazes me how many pilots still try to learn how their flight computer works in the air, particaly those using some sort of PDA. I know how my oudie works very well only due to the fact I fly with it most weeks at home on my PC when flying a condor task. As for turn point names starting with numbers, this works really well when you are in a area where the names don't mean much to you anyway. For tasking it would be nice if the task sheet did have the real would names along side of the coded ones then at least you could show a local to see it what you have programmed in looks right. Better go and set tonight condor task Arie Aussie task. On 9/01/2014 5:42 PM, Mike Borgelt wrote: At 08:39 AM 9/01/2014, you wrote: My understanding was that the official turn point list was now the file supplied by the organisers anyway. This is usually a small subset of the local database without points close together. Correct. I'm having difficulty understanding why numbers are preferable to alphabetical names unless you don't know the alphabet. Even with a lack of multiple points in the same location, there is scope for confusion. I am aware of someone entering COONAMBLE into a task instead of COONABARABRAN as the device only showed the first 6 characters ! And then they flew the wrong task. Obviously this person had a complete lack of situational awareness. Deserves everything he or she got. Might be an idea to roughly draw on a real paper map and see if it matches the shape on the contest officials' board. You really need a sanity check on what a computer tells you. In any case if your particular device is limited to the number of characters it can display you can edit the database and remove any name ambiguity. CNABAR ought to do it in the above case. Anyway as Ron pointed out you are wrong anyway as 6 letters removes the ambiguity. Legally you probably should be carrying a paper map and ERC Low unless you are running OZ Runways on an iPad. From experience, entering a task using the numbers is far quicker and far less error prone, particularly if having to do it in the air (after my oudie crashed and lost the task), which means less time with head in the cockpit ! In the B600/B800 the task can be entered at briefing on the SD card. It doesn't go away if the power gets interrupted and systems that don't run on top of a version of Windows/Android/Apple OS are much less likely to crash. Having visited Waikerie last weekend and talking to pilots the AAT does result in lots of pilot workload and interaction with the moving map computer and lots of head in cockpit time particularly when also trying to find out what pilots around you are doing by looking at their Flarms. Let alone trying to optimise the last turn while trying to outguess an algorithm whose logic you don't know. As far as getting an idea of what the task is, that is available from the task sheet and by drawing it on a map. Remember, the task is for the benefit of the competitors. The fact that any of us looking from home, work, etc can see what they are doing is a bonus. We should NEVER look to define tasks for the benefit of spectators ahead of the competitors. Surely easy enough to define in terms of the encrypted contest name plus plain language. Then everyone is happy. I agree about the task being for the competitors. Make it too arcane for outsiders though and you eventually run out of competitors. Likewise the rules should not encourage taking less than the safest option. One GP I saw had a penalty for NOT landing straight ahead. I saw two potential spin ins to the tie down area. Plain dumb and the organisers should have known better. It was to create a spectacle for the spectators. Sure could have been. The 3rd day at Waikerie had the front go through as the pack were finishing into a very strong and gusty headwind. Some really marginal flops over the fence. A 3km finish circle with no minimum altitude doesn't help as your best score is by using your safety margin to arrive there ar high speed and low altitude. Works fine with a tailwind or no wind. One pilot I talked to the next day suggested finishing at 1500 feet over the middle of the airfield. This conforms with the book arrival for powered aircraft and gives plenty of time and energy to sort out the landings. The spectators can actually see the finishes too. Mike *Borgelt Instruments***- /design manufacture of quality soaring instrumentation since 1978 /www.borgeltinstruments.com http://www.borgeltinstruments.com/tel: 07 4635 5784overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784 mob: 042835 5784: int+61-42835 5784 P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Turnpoints
Hi Ron, apparently it was requested by the pilots at a recent nats pilot meeting (maybe Benalla) and is now in the guidelines. Makes inputting tasks to a device easier. Regards Grant. Grant Hudson On 7 Jan 2014, at 19:21, Ron Sanders resand...@gmail.com wrote: Everybody just a question about the arrangement of turn points. I noticed at Kingaroy and now at Waikerie that turn points are being described primarily by numbers these days. I was wondering if any body can tell me why?? Don't care one way or the other just interested to know if some body has made some kind of policy decision. Ron ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Turnpoints
With the added advantage that casual visitors to the contest have no idea where the task is for the day :-) Mike At 07:06 PM 7/01/2014, you wrote: Hi Ron, apparently it was requested by the pilots at a recent nats pilot meeting (maybe Benalla) and is now in the guidelines. Makes inputting tasks to a device easier. Regards Grant. Grant Hudson On 7 Jan 2014, at 19:21, Ron Sanders resand...@gmail.com wrote: Everybody just a question about the arrangement of turn points. I noticed at Kingaroy and now at Waikerie that turn points are being described primarily by numbers these days. I was wondering if any body can tell me why?? Don't care one way or the other just interested to know if some body has made some kind of policy decision. Ron ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring Borgelt Instruments - design manufacture of quality soaring instrumentation since 1978 www.borgeltinstruments.com tel: 07 4635 5784 overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784 mob: 042835 5784: int+61-42835 5784 P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Turnpoints
The disadvantage of numbers is that pilots remember names much better than numbers and also visualise the flight better if they are familiar with the site. Harry From: Mike Borgelt Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2014 9:19 AM To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Turnpoints With the added advantage that casual visitors to the contest have no idea where the task is for the day :-) Mike At 07:06 PM 7/01/2014, you wrote: Hi Ron, apparently it was requested by the pilots at a recent nats pilot meeting (maybe Benalla) and is now in the guidelines. Makes inputting tasks to a device easier. Regards Grant. Grant Hudson On 7 Jan 2014, at 19:21, Ron Sanders resand...@gmail.com wrote: Everybody just a question about the arrangement of turn points. I noticed at Kingaroy and now at Waikerie that turn points are being described primarily by numbers these days. I was wondering if any body can tell me why?? Don't care one way or the other just interested to know if some body has made some kind of policy decision. Ron ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring Borgelt Instruments - design manufacture of quality soaring instrumentation since 1978 www.borgeltinstruments.com tel: 07 4635 5784 overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784 mob: 042835 5784 : int+61-42835 5784 P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Turnpoints
The names are a combined number and name, not just a number. eg 47PATA MT From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Mike Borgelt Sent: Wednesday, 8 January 2014 8:49 AM To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Turnpoints With the added advantage that casual visitors to the contest have no idea where the task is for the day :-) Mike At 07:06 PM 7/01/2014, you wrote: Hi Ron, apparently it was requested by the pilots at a recent nats pilot meeting (maybe Benalla) and is now in the guidelines. Makes inputting tasks to a device easier. Regards Grant. Grant Hudson On 7 Jan 2014, at 19:21, Ron Sanders resand...@gmail.com wrote: Everybody just a question about the arrangement of turn points. I noticed at Kingaroy and now at Waikerie that turn points are being described primarily by numbers these days. I was wondering if any body can tell me why?? Don't care one way or the other just interested to know if some body has made some kind of policy decision. Ron ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring Borgelt Instruments - design manufacture of quality soaring instrumentation since 1978 www.borgeltinstruments.com http://www.borgeltinstruments.com/ tel: 07 4635 5784 overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784 mob: 042835 5784 : int+61-42835 5784 P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Turnpoints
Yep and when I looked at the task board the other day I had no idea where they were going... and I've done a lot of cross country gliding out of Waikerie. Mike At 09:45 AM 8/01/2014, you wrote: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary==_NextPart_000_0038_01CF0C5A.810D0DA0 Content-Language: en-au The names are a combined number and name, not just a number. eg 47PATA MT From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Mike Borgelt Sent: Wednesday, 8 January 2014 8:49 AM To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Turnpoints With the added advantage that casual visitors to the contest have no idea where the task is for the day :-) Mike At 07:06 PM 7/01/2014, you wrote: Hi Ron, apparently it was requested by the pilots at a recent nats pilot meeting (maybe Benalla) and is now in the guidelines. Makes inputting tasks to a device easier. Regards Grant. Grant Hudson On 7 Jan 2014, at 19:21, Ron Sanders mailto:resand...@gmail.comresand...@gmail.com wrote: Everybody just a question about the arrangement of turn points. I noticed at Kingaroy and now at Waikerie that turn points are being described primarily by numbers these days. I was wondering if any body can tell me why?? Don't care one way or the other just interested to know if some body has made some kind of policy decision. Ron ___ Aus-soaring mailing list mailto:Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.netAus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaringhttp://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list mailto:Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.netAus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaringhttp://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring Borgelt Instruments - design manufacture of quality soaring instrumentation since 1978 http://www.borgeltinstruments.com/www.borgeltinstruments.com tel: 07 4635 5784 overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784 mob: 042835 5784 : int+61-42835 5784 P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring Borgelt Instruments - design manufacture of quality soaring instrumentation since 1978 www.borgeltinstruments.com tel: 07 4635 5784 overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784 mob: 042835 5784: int+61-42835 5784 P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Turnpoints
From a competitor's point of view the new turnpoint naming convention of number/name is great as it avoids any possible confusion regarding which turnpoint has been set for the task. Also makes it much easier to input the task accurately into the logger/flight computer/gps whatever. Similarly, in the air they are really much easier and faster to use. ROSS _ From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Mandy Temple Sent: Wednesday, 8 January 2014 9:45 AM To: 'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.' Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Turnpoints The names are a combined number and name, not just a number. eg 47PATA MT From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Mike Borgelt Sent: Wednesday, 8 January 2014 8:49 AM To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Turnpoints With the added advantage that casual visitors to the contest have no idea where the task is for the day :-) Mike At 07:06 PM 7/01/2014, you wrote: Hi Ron, apparently it was requested by the pilots at a recent nats pilot meeting (maybe Benalla) and is now in the guidelines. Makes inputting tasks to a device easier. Regards Grant. Grant Hudson On 7 Jan 2014, at 19:21, Ron Sanders resand...@gmail.com wrote: Everybody just a question about the arrangement of turn points. I noticed at Kingaroy and now at Waikerie that turn points are being described primarily by numbers these days. I was wondering if any body can tell me why?? Don't care one way or the other just interested to know if some body has made some kind of policy decision. Ron ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring Borgelt Instruments - design manufacture of quality soaring instrumentation since 1978 www.borgeltinstruments.com http://www.borgeltinstruments.com/ tel: 07 4635 5784 overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784 mob: 042835 5784 : int+61-42835 5784 P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Turnpoints
Hi all,
Waypoint files can have both a code value and a full name. Loggers
(and See You) can generally use either. There is good reason for
this, because there are two sets of users - the pilots, who should
use the code, and the public, who should see the full name.
I can't really see the problem unless the Sports Committee
Guidelines have been written so that the organisers are not allowed
to use the full names in displays to the public.
Cheers
Tim
On 08/01/2014 11:31, Mike Borgelt
wrote:
Yep and when I looked at the task board the other day I had no
idea where
they were going... and I've done a lot of cross country gliding
out of
Waikerie.
Mike
At 09:45 AM 8/01/2014, you wrote:
Content-Type:
multipart/alternative;
boundary="=_NextPart_000_0038_01CF0C5A.810D0DA0"
Content-Language: en-au
The names are a combined number and name, not just a number.
eg 47PATA
MT
From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net
[
mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On
Behalf Of
Mike Borgelt
Sent: Wednesday, 8 January 2014 8:49 AM
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in
Australia.
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Turnpoints
With the added advantage that casual visitors to the contest
have no idea
where the task is for the day :-)
Mike
At 07:06 PM 7/01/2014, you wrote:
Hi Ron, apparently it was requested by the pilots at a recent
nats pilot
meeting (maybe Benalla) and is now in the guidelines. Makes
inputting
tasks to a device easier.
Regards Grant.
Grant Hudson
On 7 Jan 2014, at 19:21, Ron Sanders
resand...@gmail.com
wrote:
Everybody just a question about the arrangement of turn
points.
I noticed at Kingaroy and now at Waikerie that turn points
are
being
described primarily by numbers these days. I was wondering
if any
body
can tell me why??
Don't care one way or the other just interested to know if
some
body
has made some kind of policy decision.
Ron
___
Aus-soaring mailing list
Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
To check or change subscription details, visit:
http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
___
Aus-soaring mailing list
Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
To check or change subscription details, visit:
http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Borgelt Instruments - design manufacture of
quality
soaring instrumentation since 1978
www.borgeltinstruments.com
tel: 07 4635 5784 overseas:
int+61-7-4635 5784
mob: 042835
5784
: int+61-42835 5784
P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia
___
Aus-soaring mailing list
Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
To check or change subscription details, visit:
http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Borgelt Instruments
- design manufacture of
quality soaring
instrumentation since 1978
www.borgeltinstruments.com
tel: 07 4635
5784overseas: int+61-7-4635
5784
mob: 042835
5784
:
int+61-42835 5784
P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia
___
Aus-soaring mailing list
Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
To check or change subscription details, visit:
http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
--
___
Aus-soaring mailing list
Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
To check or change subscription details, visit:
http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Turnpoints
Depends on the device and how the database is organised and how you choose turnpoints. How is having a name instead of a number likely to lead to more confusion in the official contest turnpoint database or which turnpoint has been set? Presumably the names are spelled correctly and the coordinates supplied by the organisers. Mike .At 10:30 AM 8/01/2014, you wrote: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary==_NextPart_000_0162_01CF0C5C.A9DFE160 Content-Language: en-au From a competitor's point of view the new turnpoint naming convention of number/name is great as it avoids any possible confusion regarding which turnpoint has been set for the task. Also makes it much easier to input the task accurately into the logger/flight computer/gps whatever. Similarly, in the air they are really much easier and faster to use. ROSS _ From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Mandy Temple Sent: Wednesday, 8 January 2014 9:45 AM To: 'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.' Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Turnpoints The names are a combined number and name, not just a number. eg 47PATA MT From: mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.netaus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Mike Borgelt Sent: Wednesday, 8 January 2014 8:49 AM To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Turnpoints With the added advantage that casual visitors to the contest have no idea where the task is for the day :-) Mike At 07:06 PM 7/01/2014, you wrote: Hi Ron, apparently it was requested by the pilots at a recent nats pilot meeting (maybe Benalla) and is now in the guidelines. Makes inputting tasks to a device easier. Regards Grant. Grant Hudson On 7 Jan 2014, at 19:21, Ron Sanders mailto:resand...@gmail.comresand...@gmail.com wrote: Everybody just a question about the arrangement of turn points. I noticed at Kingaroy and now at Waikerie that turn points are being described primarily by numbers these days. I was wondering if any body can tell me why?? Don't care one way or the other just interested to know if some body has made some kind of policy decision. Ron ___ Aus-soaring mailing list mailto:Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.netAus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaringhttp://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list mailto:Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.netAus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaringhttp://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring Borgelt Instruments - design manufacture of quality soaring instrumentation since 1978 http://www.borgeltinstruments.com/www.borgeltinstruments.com tel: 07 4635 5784 overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784 mob: 042835 5784 : int+61-42835 5784 P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring Borgelt Instruments - design manufacture of quality soaring instrumentation since 1978 www.borgeltinstruments.com tel: 07 4635 5784 overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784 mob: 042835 5784: int+61-42835 5784 P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Turnpoints
How is having a name instead of a number likely to lead to more confusion in the official contest turnpoint database or which turnpoint has been set? . Jandowie, Jandowie North, Jandowie Crossing . Bobedah Town Hall, Bobedah Road Junc . Boggabilla, Boggabri . Carinda East, Carinda Swim Pool . Collie A/F, Collie Road Junc . Condobolin TerminlBldng, Condobolin Silo . Coonabarabran, Coonabarabran Silo . Coonamble TerminlBldng, Coonamble Silo, Coonamble West . Forbes A/F, Forbes Silo . Gilgandra A/F, Gilgandra TerminlBldng, Gilgandra Beehive Silo . Temora A/F, Temora Silo . Tomingley Road Junction, Tomingley West (Silo)... I could go on but you probably get the idea by now Mike. ROSS _ From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Mike Borgelt Sent: Wednesday, 8 January 2014 10:45 AM To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Turnpoints Depends on the device and how the database is organised and how you choose turnpoints. How is having a name instead of a number likely to lead to more confusion in the official contest turnpoint database or which turnpoint has been set? Presumably the names are spelled correctly and the coordinates supplied by the organisers. Mike .At 10:30 AM 8/01/2014, you wrote: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary==_NextPart_000_0162_01CF0C5C.A9DFE160 Content-Language: en-au From a competitor's point of view the new turnpoint naming convention of number/name is great as it avoids any possible confusion regarding which turnpoint has been set for the task. Also makes it much easier to input the task accurately into the logger/flight computer/gps whatever. Similarly, in the air they are really much easier and faster to use. ROSS _ From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [ mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net ] On Behalf Of Mandy Temple Sent: Wednesday, 8 January 2014 9:45 AM To: 'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.' Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Turnpoints The names are a combined number and name, not just a number. eg 47PATA MT From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [ mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net ] On Behalf Of Mike Borgelt Sent: Wednesday, 8 January 2014 8:49 AM To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Turnpoints With the added advantage that casual visitors to the contest have no idea where the task is for the day :-) Mike At 07:06 PM 7/01/2014, you wrote: Hi Ron, apparently it was requested by the pilots at a recent nats pilot meeting (maybe Benalla) and is now in the guidelines. Makes inputting tasks to a device easier. Regards Grant. Grant Hudson On 7 Jan 2014, at 19:21, Ron Sanders resand...@gmail.com wrote: Everybody just a question about the arrangement of turn points. I noticed at Kingaroy and now at Waikerie that turn points are being described primarily by numbers these days. I was wondering if any body can tell me why?? Don't care one way or the other just interested to know if some body has made some kind of policy decision. Ron ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring Borgelt Instruments - design manufacture of quality soaring instrumentation since 1978 www.borgeltinstruments.com http://www.borgeltinstruments.com/ tel: 07 4635 5784 overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784 mob: 042835 5784 : int+61-42835 5784 P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring Borgelt Instruments - design manufacture of quality soaring instrumentation since 1978 www.borgeltinstruments.com http://www.borgeltinstruments.com/ tel: 07 4635 5784 overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784 mob: 042835 5784 : int+61-42835 5784 P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia ___ Aus-soaring mailing list
Re: [Aus-soaring] Turnpoints
The confusion only comes from the space available for the name being limited by the computer. In the English language there is no confusion between Bobedah road junction and Bobedah Town hall. I thought computers were supposed to be mankind's servant not the other way around. Ron On 8 January 2014 09:29, Ross McLean ross...@bigpond.net.au wrote: How is having a name instead of a number likely to lead to more confusion in the official contest turnpoint database or which turnpoint has been set? · Jandowie, Jandowie North, Jandowie Crossing · Bobedah Town Hall, Bobedah Road Junc · Boggabilla, Boggabri · Carinda East, Carinda Swim Pool · Collie A/F, Collie Road Junc · Condobolin TerminlBldng, Condobolin Silo · Coonabarabran, Coonabarabran Silo · Coonamble TerminlBldng, Coonamble Silo, Coonamble West · Forbes A/F, Forbes Silo · Gilgandra A/F, Gilgandra TerminlBldng, Gilgandra Beehive Silo · Temora A/F, Temora Silo · Tomingley Road Junction, Tomingley West (Silo)... I could go on but you probably get the idea by now Mike. ROSS _ From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Mike Borgelt Sent: Wednesday, 8 January 2014 10:45 AM To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Turnpoints Depends on the device and how the database is organised and how you choose turnpoints. How is having a name instead of a number likely to lead to more confusion in the official contest turnpoint database or which turnpoint has been set? Presumably the names are spelled correctly and the coordinates supplied by the organisers. Mike .At 10:30 AM 8/01/2014, you wrote: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary==_NextPart_000_0162_01CF0C5C.A9DFE160 Content-Language: en-au From a competitor's point of view the new turnpoint naming convention of number/name is great as it avoids any possible confusion regarding which turnpoint has been set for the task. Also makes it much easier to input the task accurately into the logger/flight computer/gps whatever. Similarly, in the air they are really much easier and faster to use. ROSS _ From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [ mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Mandy Temple Sent: Wednesday, 8 January 2014 9:45 AM To: 'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.' Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Turnpoints The names are a combined number and name, not just a number. eg 47PATA MT From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [ mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Mike Borgelt Sent: Wednesday, 8 January 2014 8:49 AM To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Turnpoints With the added advantage that casual visitors to the contest have no idea where the task is for the day :-) Mike At 07:06 PM 7/01/2014, you wrote: Hi Ron, apparently it was requested by the pilots at a recent nats pilot meeting (maybe Benalla) and is now in the guidelines. Makes inputting tasks to a device easier. Regards Grant. Grant Hudson On 7 Jan 2014, at 19:21, Ron Sanders resand...@gmail.com wrote: Everybody just a question about the arrangement of turn points. I noticed at Kingaroy and now at Waikerie that turn points are being described primarily by numbers these days. I was wondering if any body can tell me why?? Don't care one way or the other just interested to know if some body has made some kind of policy decision. Ron ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring Borgelt Instruments - design manufacture of quality soaring instrumentation since 1978 www.borgeltinstruments.com tel: 07 4635 5784 overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784 mob: 042835 5784 : int+61-42835 5784 P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring Borgelt Instruments - design manufacture of quality soaring instrumentation since 1978 www.borgeltinstruments.com
Re: [Aus-soaring] Turnpoints
Presumably the turnpoint comes with the lat and long on the official list. That removes any ambiguity. So, no, you don't have a point in the days of GPS and databases. Mike At 11:29 AM 8/01/2014, you wrote: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary==_NextPart_000_0191_01CF0C64.EE24B640 Content-Language: en-au How is having a name instead of a number likely to lead to more confusion in the official contest turnpoint database or which turnpoint has been set? · Jandowie, Jandowie North, Jandowie Crossing · Bobedah Town Hall, Bobedah Road Junc · Boggabilla, Boggabri · Carinda East, Carinda Swim Pool · Collie A/F, Collie Road Junc · Condobolin TerminlBldng, Condobolin Silo · Coonabarabran, Coonabarabran Silo · Coonamble TerminlBldng, Coonamble Silo, Coonamble West · Forbes A/F, Forbes Silo · Gilgandra A/F, Gilgandra TerminlBldng, Gilgandra Beehive Silo · Temora A/F, Temora Silo · Tomingley Road Junction, Tomingley West (Silo)... I could go on but you probably get the idea by now Mike. ROSS _ From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Mike Borgelt Sent: Wednesday, 8 January 2014 10:45 AM To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Turnpoints Depends on the device and how the database is organised and how you choose turnpoints. How is having a name instead of a number likely to lead to more confusion in the official contest turnpoint database or which turnpoint has been set? Presumably the names are spelled correctly and the coordinates supplied by the organisers. Mike .At 10:30 AM 8/01/2014, you wrote: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary==_NextPart_000_0162_01CF0C5C.A9DFE160 Content-Language: en-au From a competitor's point of view the new turnpoint naming convention of number/name is great as it avoids any possible confusion regarding which turnpoint has been set for the task. Also makes it much easier to input the task accurately into the logger/flight computer/gps whatever. Similarly, in the air they are really much easier and faster to use. ROSS _ From: mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.netaus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [ mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Mandy Temple Sent: Wednesday, 8 January 2014 9:45 AM To: 'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.' Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Turnpoints The names are a combined number and name, not just a number. eg 47PATA MT From: mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.netaus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [ mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Mike Borgelt Sent: Wednesday, 8 January 2014 8:49 AM To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Turnpoints With the added advantage that casual visitors to the contest have no idea where the task is for the day :-) Mike At 07:06 PM 7/01/2014, you wrote: Hi Ron, apparently it was requested by the pilots at a recent nats pilot meeting (maybe Benalla) and is now in the guidelines. Makes inputting tasks to a device easier. Regards Grant. Grant Hudson On 7 Jan 2014, at 19:21, Ron Sanders mailto:resand...@gmail.comresand...@gmail.com wrote: Everybody just a question about the arrangement of turn points. I noticed at Kingaroy and now at Waikerie that turn points are being described primarily by numbers these days. I was wondering if any body can tell me why?? Don't care one way or the other just interested to know if some body has made some kind of policy decision. Ron ___ Aus-soaring mailing list mailto:Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.netAus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaringhttp://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list mailto:Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.netAus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaringhttp://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring Borgelt Instruments - design manufacture of quality soaring instrumentation since 1978 http://www.borgeltinstruments.com/www.borgeltinstruments.com tel: 07 4635 5784 overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784 mob: 042835 5784 : int+61-42835 5784 P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia
Re: [Aus-soaring] Turnpoints
But don't we now fly to GPS co-ordinates rather than physical landmarks? I thought physical landmarks went the way of the turn-point camera - even though they are my preference. Regards, Dave Do not go gentle into that good night - Dylan Thomas From: Ross McLean ross...@bigpond.net.au To: 'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.' aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Sent: Wednesday, 8 January 2014 11:29 AM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Turnpoints How is having a name instead of a number likely to lead to more confusion in the official contest turnpoint database or which turnpoint has been set? · Jandowie, Jandowie North, Jandowie Crossing · Bobedah Town Hall, Bobedah Road Junc · Boggabilla, Boggabri · Carinda East, Carinda Swim Pool · Collie A/F, Collie Road Junc · Condobolin TerminlBldng, Condobolin Silo · Coonabarabran, Coonabarabran Silo · Coonamble TerminlBldng, Coonamble Silo, Coonamble West · Forbes A/F, Forbes Silo · Gilgandra A/F, Gilgandra TerminlBldng, Gilgandra Beehive Silo · Temora A/F, Temora Silo · Tomingley Road Junction, Tomingley West (Silo)... I could go on but you probably get the idea by now Mike. ROSS _ From:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Mike Borgelt Sent: Wednesday, 8 January 2014 10:45 AM To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Turnpoints Depends on the device and how the database is organised and how you choose turnpoints. How is having a name instead of a number likely to lead to more confusion in the official contest turnpoint database or which turnpoint has been set? Presumably the names are spelled correctly and the coordinates supplied by the organisers. Mike .At 10:30 AM 8/01/2014, you wrote: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary==_NextPart_000_0162_01CF0C5C.A9DFE160 Content-Language: en-au From a competitor's point of view the new turnpoint naming convention of number/name is great as it avoids any possible confusion regarding which turnpoint has been set for the task. Also makes it much easier to input the task accurately into the logger/flight computer/gps whatever. Similarly, in the air they are really much easier and faster to use. ROSS _ From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Mandy Temple Sent: Wednesday, 8 January 2014 9:45 AM To: 'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.' Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Turnpoints The names are a combined number and name, not just a number. eg 47PATA MT From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Mike Borgelt Sent: Wednesday, 8 January 2014 8:49 AM To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Turnpoints With the added advantage that casual visitors to the contest have no idea where the task is for the day :-) Mike At 07:06 PM 7/01/2014, you wrote: Hi Ron, apparently it was requested by the pilots at a recent nats pilot meeting (maybe Benalla) and is now in the guidelines. Makes inputting tasks to a device easier. Regards Grant. Grant Hudson On 7 Jan 2014, at 19:21, Ron Sanders resand...@gmail.com wrote: Everybody just a question about the arrangement of turn points. I noticed at Kingaroy and now at Waikerie that turn points are being described primarily by numbers these days. I was wondering if any body can tell me why?? Don't care one way or the other just interested to know if some body has made some kind of policy decision. Ron ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring Borgelt Instruments - design manufacture of quality soaring instrumentation since 1978 www.borgeltinstruments.com tel: 07 4635 5784 overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784 mob: 042835 5784 : int+61-42835 5784 P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus
Re: [Aus-soaring] Turnpoints
Yes, that too but why would anyone put into an official CONTEST database two or three points with similar names within a few kilometers of each other? One of the points is all you need. Confusion and ambiguity eliminated. I'm talking about a contest database of turnpoints, not a general area database. The Brits had one of those a few years ago with about 900 points covering the UK. Many were like Little Graunching in the Marshes Church Steeple, LGITM railway station, LGITM river bridge, LGITM road junction, etc etc. I'm sure there were really effectively about 250. Even if planning a record or badge flight with minimum leg requirements there's nothing to stop you creating a custom turnpoint at any point defined by lat and long to fit your requirement if one of the published points doesn't quite fit. That is one effect of using GNSS systems. Mike At 11:47 AM 8/01/2014, you wrote: But don't we now fly to GPS co-ordinates rather than physical landmarks? I thought physical landmarks went the way of the turn-point camera - even though they are my preference. Regards, Dave Do not go gentle into that good night - Dylan Thomas From: Ross McLean ross...@bigpond.net.au To: 'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.' aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Sent: Wednesday, 8 January 2014 11:29 AM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Turnpoints How is having a name instead of a number likely to lead to more confusion in the official contest turnpoint database or which turnpoint has been set? · Jandowie, Jandowie North, Jandowie Crossing · Bobedah Town Hall, Bobedah Road Junc · Boggabilla, Boggabri · Carinda East, Carinda Swim Pool · Collie A/F, Collie Road Junc · Condobolin TerminlBldng, Condobolin Silo · Coonabarabran, Coonabarabran Silo · Coonamble TerminlBldng, Coonamble Silo, Coonamble West · Forbes A/F, Forbes Silo · Gilgandra A/F, Gilgandra TerminlBldng, Gilgandra Beehive Silo · Temora A/F, Temora Silo · Tomingley Road Junction, Tomingley West (Silo)... I could go on but you probably get the idea by now Mike. ROSS _ From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Mike Borgelt Sent: Wednesday, 8 January 2014 10:45 AM To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Turnpoints Depends on the device and how the database is organised and how you choose turnpoints. How is having a name instead of a number likely to lead to more confusion in the official contest turnpoint database or which turnpoint has been set? Presumably the names are spelled correctly and the coordinates supplied by the organisers. Mike .At 10:30 AM 8/01/2014, you wrote: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary==_NextPart_000_0162_01CF0C5C.A9DFE160 Content-Language: en-au From a competitor's point of view the new turnpoint naming convention of number/name is great as it avoids any possible confusion regarding which turnpoint has been set for the task. Also makes it much easier to input the task accurately into the logger/flight computer/gps whatever. Similarly, in the air they are really much easier and faster to use. ROSS _ From: mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.netaus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [ mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Mandy Temple Sent: Wednesday, 8 January 2014 9:45 AM To: 'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.' Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Turnpoints The names are a combined number and name, not just a number. eg 47PATA MT From: mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.netaus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [ mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Mike Borgelt Sent: Wednesday, 8 January 2014 8:49 AM To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Turnpoints With the added advantage that casual visitors to the contest have no idea where the task is for the day :-) Mike At 07:06 PM 7/01/2014, you wrote: Hi Ron, apparently it was requested by the pilots at a recent nats pilot meeting (maybe Benalla) and is now in the guidelines. Makes inputting tasks to a device easier. Regards Grant. Grant Hudson On 7 Jan 2014, at 19:21, Ron Sanders mailto:resand...@gmail.comresand...@gmail.com wrote: Everybody just a question about the arrangement of turn points. I noticed at Kingaroy and now at Waikerie that turn points are being described primarily by numbers these days. I was wondering if any body can tell me why?? Don't care one way
Re: [Aus-soaring] Turnpoints
At 11:37 AM 8/01/2014, you wrote: I thought computers were supposed to be mankind's servant not the other way around. Ha! We've convinced those stupid carbon based lifeforms to not only create us and cater to our every whim but they have made their entire civilisation depend on us. Our time will come. Mike's ASUS All in one Borgelt Instruments - design manufacture of quality soaring instrumentation since 1978 www.borgeltinstruments.com tel: 07 4635 5784 overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784 mob: 042835 5784: int+61-42835 5784 P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Turnpoints
This site may help in cracking the codes being used for this comps at Waikerie anyway. http://soaringweb.org/TP/Waikerie_local Choose your format from those on offer. The first on the list of offerings (Control Points) in pdf format was the most helpful for this interested and hitherto bewildered onlooker. I really enjoyed the brief visit to Waikerie yesterday for the launch part of the event - as it happens it's almost exactly 40 years since the World Gliding Championships were at Waikerie. Several of the gliders which were there 40 years ago are still being flown today - at least one of them in this comp. None of us who were there will ever forget the experience, or the effect it had on the sport in Australia. tn ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: was Re: [Aus-soaring] Turnpoints for the Chinchilla Easter Competition
or an oxygon moronrob - Original Message From: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.netTo: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.netSubject: was Re: [Aus-soaring] Turnpoints for the Chinchilla Easter CompetitionDate: 06/04/2006 19:11No, that person is a hypoxy moron. :-)PeterS- Original Message -From: "Robert Hart" [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: "Boonahgliding" [EMAIL PROTECTED]; "Discussion of issuesrelating to Soaring in Australia." aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.netSent: Thursday, April 06, 2006 9:21 AMSubject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Turnpoints for the Chinchilla Easter Competition Boonahgliding wrote: intelligent typos - their's an oxy moron I thought an oxy moron was any glider pilot at 12,000 ft without oxygen... -- Robert Hart [EMAIL PROTECTED] +61 (0)438 385 533 http://www.hart.wattle.id.au ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring___Aus-soaring mailing listAus-soaring@lists.internode.on.netTo check or change subscription details, visit:http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring Dodo - an Official Sponsor of the 2006 FORMULA 1 (tm) Foster's Australian Grand Prix ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: was Re: [Aus-soaring] Turnpoints for the Chinchilla EasterCompetition
good lord, it's like a bottomless pit. It
never ends . . .
- Original Message -
From:
Boonahgliding
To: Discussion of issues relating
to Soaring in Australia.
Sent: Monday, April 10, 2006 7:30
PM
Subject: Re: was Re: [Aus-soaring]
Turnpoints for the Chinchilla EasterCompetition
or an oxygon moronrob
- Original Message From:
"Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.netTo:
"Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.netSubject:
was Re: [Aus-soaring] Turnpoints for the Chinchilla Easter
CompetitionDate: 06/04/2006 19:11No, that person is a hypoxy moron. :-)PeterS-
Original Message -From: "Robert Hart"
[EMAIL PROTECTED]To: "Boonahgliding"
[EMAIL PROTECTED]; "Discussion of issuesrelating to
Soaring in Australia." aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.netSent:
Thursday, April 06, 2006 9:21 AMSubject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Turnpoints
for the Chinchilla Easter Competition Boonahgliding
wrote: intelligent typos - their's an oxy moron I
thought an oxy moron was any glider pilot at 12,000 ft without
oxygen... -- Robert Hart [EMAIL PROTECTED] +61
(0)438 385 533 http://www.hart.wattle.id.au
___ Aus-soaring mailing
list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring___Aus-soaring
mailing listAus-soaring@lists.internode.on.netTo
check or change subscription details, visit:http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaringDodo
- an Official Sponsor of the2006 FORMULA 1 (tm)Foster's Australian
Grand Prix
___Aus-soaring mailing
listAus-soaring@lists.internode.on.netTo check or change subscription
details, visit:http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
No virus found in this incoming message.Checked by AVG Free
Edition.Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.4.0/306 - Release Date:
9-04-2006
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.4.0/306 - Release Date: 9-04-2006
___
Aus-soaring mailing list
Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
To check or change subscription details, visit:
http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
was Re: [Aus-soaring] Turnpoints for the Chinchilla Easter Competition
No, that person is a hypoxy moron. :-) PeterS - Original Message - From: Robert Hart [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Boonahgliding [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2006 9:21 AM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Turnpoints for the Chinchilla Easter Competition Boonahgliding wrote: intelligent typos - their's an oxy moron I thought an oxy moron was any glider pilot at 12,000 ft without oxygen... -- Robert Hart [EMAIL PROTECTED] +61 (0)438 385 533 http://www.hart.wattle.id.au ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: was Re: [Aus-soaring] Turnpoints for the Chinchilla Easter Competition
Hypoxy A word Peter which means loosly under sharp which of course renders the word moron inutilitous. I have wondered why we don't say hypo(oxia) which sounds more technically correct. Hyperventilate is certainly used for the opposite. Perhaps Michael Texler can explain that one. Chris McDonnell - Original Message - From: Peter Stephenson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2006 6:15 PM Subject: was Re: [Aus-soaring] Turnpoints for the Chinchilla Easter Competition No, that person is a hypoxy moron. :-) PeterS - Original Message - From: Robert Hart [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Boonahgliding [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2006 9:21 AM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Turnpoints for the Chinchilla Easter Competition Boonahgliding wrote: intelligent typos - their's an oxy moron I thought an oxy moron was any glider pilot at 12,000 ft without oxygen... -- Robert Hart [EMAIL PROTECTED] +61 (0)438 385 533 http://www.hart.wattle.id.au ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: was Re: [Aus-soaring] Turnpoints for the Chinchilla Easter Competition
Hypo = less than, inadequate Hyper = more than, too much Moron = Welsh for carrots Beware of what the Easter Bunny really brings - though I'm not sure whether the oxen are bringing the carrots or eating them! Wombat (and yes, a carrot is a root vegetable!) Hypoxy A word Peter which means loosly under sharp which of course renders the word moron inutilitous. I have wondered why we don't say hypo(oxia) which sounds more technically correct. Hyperventilate is certainly used for the opposite. Perhaps Michael Texler can explain that one. Chris McDonnell - Original Message - From: Peter Stephenson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2006 6:15 PM Subject: was Re: [Aus-soaring] Turnpoints for the Chinchilla Easter Competition No, that person is a hypoxy moron. :-) Boonahgliding wrote: intelligent typos - their's an oxy moron I thought an oxy moron was any glider pilot at 12,000 ft without oxygen... ck or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: was Re: [Aus-soaring] Turnpoints for the Chinchilla EasterCompetition
Yes Christopher, :-)) I am a medico I knew what I was writing :-)). a Hypoxic Moron is the correct term for a glider pilot cruising at 12,000 feet without oxygen but I was just continuing the puns started by Robert Hart, hence the smiley's. :-)) PeterS - Original Message - From: Christopher Mc Donnell [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2006 9:12 PM Subject: Re: was Re: [Aus-soaring] Turnpoints for the Chinchilla EasterCompetition Hypoxy A word Peter which means loosly under sharp which of course renders the word moron inutilitous. I have wondered why we don't say hypo(oxia) which sounds more technically correct. Hyperventilate is certainly used for the opposite. Perhaps Michael Texler can explain that one. Chris McDonnell - Original Message - From: Peter Stephenson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2006 6:15 PM Subject: was Re: [Aus-soaring] Turnpoints for the Chinchilla Easter Competition No, that person is a hypoxy moron. :-) PeterS - Original Message - From: Robert Hart [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Boonahgliding [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2006 9:21 AM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Turnpoints for the Chinchilla Easter Competition Boonahgliding wrote: intelligent typos - their's an oxy moron I thought an oxy moron was any glider pilot at 12,000 ft without oxygen... -- Robert Hart [EMAIL PROTECTED] +61 (0)438 385 533 http://www.hart.wattle.id.au ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
RE: [Aus-soaring] Turnpoints for the Chinchilla Easter Competition
turnpoint data will be on site thursday (tomorrow morning). see comps website for directionrob izatt - Original Message From: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.netTo: "'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.'" aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.netSubject: RE: [Aus-soaring] Turnpoints for the Chinchilla Easter CompetitionDate: 05/04/2006 14:39WE do live in litigious times don't we!!R Cox-Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED][mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Robert HartSent: Wednesday, 5 April 2006 11:50 AMTo: Soaring in Australia.Subject: [Aus-soaring] Turnpoints for the Chinchilla Easter CompetitionHiUnfortunately, the wrong turn point file was sued as the basis forcreating the turn point file for the upcoming Easter competition and Ihave only just realised this.Please do NOT use the turn points on that the Boonah Gliding web sitespoints at on the TP exchange. The new TPs are going up on the BoonahGliding Web site today and I attach these in SeeYou format here. The ywill also be available at the competition itself.Apologies to all for this - I was obviously insufficiently clear to thecompetition organisers on this point.--Robert Hart [EMAIL PROTECTED]+61 (0)438 385 533 http://www.hart.wattle.id.au___Aus-soaring mailing listAus-soaring@lists.internode.on.netTo check or change subscription details, visit:http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring Dodo - an Official Sponsor of the 2006 FORMULA 1 (tm) Foster's Australian Grand Prix ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Turnpoints for the Chinchilla Easter Competition
Roger Cox wrote: WE do live in litigious times don't we!! Chuckle - another example of how spelling checkers are no good when faced with intelligent typos! -- Robert Hart [EMAIL PROTECTED] +61 (0)438 385 533 http://www.hart.wattle.id.au ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Turnpoints for the Chinchilla Easter Competition
intelligent typos - their's an oxy moron - Original Message From: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.netTo: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.netSubject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Turnpoints for the Chinchilla Easter CompetitionDate: 06/04/2006 07:57Roger Cox wrote: WE do live in litigious times don't we!!Chuckle - another example of how spelling checkers are no good whenfaced with intelligent typos!--Robert Hart [EMAIL PROTECTED]+61 (0)438 385 533 http://www.hart.wattle.id.au___Aus-soaring mailing listAus-soaring@lists.internode.on.netTo check or change subscription details, visit:http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring Dodo - an Official Sponsor of the 2006 FORMULA 1 (tm) Foster's Australian Grand Prix ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Turnpoints for the Chinchilla Easter Competition
I liked your recent precious instead of previous :-) PeterS - Original Message - From: Robert Hart [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2006 7:56 AM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Turnpoints for the Chinchilla Easter Competition Roger Cox wrote: WE do live in litigious times don't we!! Chuckle - another example of how spelling checkers are no good when faced with intelligent typos! -- Robert Hart [EMAIL PROTECTED] +61 (0)438 385 533 http://www.hart.wattle.id.au ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
RE: [Aus-soaring] Turnpoints for the Chinchilla now up at Comps site
Go to the comps site or direct to www.soaring.aerobatics.ws/TP/Chinchilla Rob Izatt -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Peter Stephenson Sent: Thursday, 6 April 2006 8:51 AM To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Turnpoints for the Chinchilla Easter Competition I liked your recent precious instead of previous :-) PeterS - Original Message - From: Robert Hart [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2006 7:56 AM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Turnpoints for the Chinchilla Easter Competition Roger Cox wrote: WE do live in litigious times don't we!! Chuckle - another example of how spelling checkers are no good when faced with intelligent typos! -- Robert Hart [EMAIL PROTECTED] +61 (0)438 385 533 http://www.hart.wattle.id.au ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Turnpoints for the Chinchilla Easter Competition
Boonahgliding wrote: intelligent typos - their's an oxy moron I thought an oxy moron was any glider pilot at 12,000 ft without oxygen... -- Robert Hart [EMAIL PROTECTED] +61 (0)438 385 533 http://www.hart.wattle.id.au ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
RE: [Aus-soaring] Turnpoints for the Chinchilla Easter Competition
WE do live in litigious times don't we!! R Cox -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Robert Hart Sent: Wednesday, 5 April 2006 11:50 AM To: Soaring in Australia. Subject: [Aus-soaring] Turnpoints for the Chinchilla Easter Competition Hi Unfortunately, the wrong turn point file was sued as the basis for creating the turn point file for the upcoming Easter competition and I have only just realised this. Please do NOT use the turn points on that the Boonah Gliding web sites points at on the TP exchange. The new TPs are going up on the Boonah Gliding Web site today and I attach these in SeeYou format here. The y will also be available at the competition itself. Apologies to all for this - I was obviously insufficiently clear to the competition organisers on this point. -- Robert Hart [EMAIL PROTECTED] +61 (0)438 385 533 http://www.hart.wattle.id.au ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Turnpoints
There are mirrors: http://soaring.xinqu.net/TP/ http://soaring.gahsys.com/TP/ They are all working ok. This one fails (the original I think) http://soaring.aerobatics.ws/TP Scott -- * - * http://www.osdc.com.au - Open Source Developers Conference * - * Scott Penrose Anthropomorphic Personification Expert http://search.cpan.org/search?author=SCOTT [EMAIL PROTECTED] Dismaimer: While every attempt has been made to make sure that this email only contains zeros and ones, there has been no effort made to guarantee the quantity or the order. Please do not send me Word or PowerPoint attachments. See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html Microsoft is not the answer. It's the question. And the answer is no. PGP.sig Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
