RE: [AZORES-Genealogy] Family Tree Dna results

[pico]

Fascinating, Susan.I bet it came as a real surprise.And here I thought I was special with my 2.97% Native American. :-)My father got 6.84% Native American (Central American) from the Pima tribe. The map shows that is Mexico.But my map shows Mexico, along with all of the other Central American countries, plus Columbia and Bolivia in South America. The tribes are Maya, Pima, Surui, Columbian.Just why my results are more specific than my father's and get closer to my known origins in Chile, makes me wonder.Doug da Rocha HolmesSacramento, CaliforniaPico & Terceira Genealogist916-550-1618www.dholmes.com


 Original Message 
Subject: Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Family Tree Dna results
From: Susan Vargas Murphy 
Date: Tue, November 05, 2013 10:33 pm
To: azores@googlegroups.com
Cc: Azores@googlegroups.com

I thought I would "join the cocktail party" because I tested both my brother and myself on Family Finder and we are of 100% Azorean ancestry.My brother came back 85.8% Western European….(French and Spanish) and 14.2 % North African (Mozabite)I came back as 97.58% Western European (Spanish) and 2.4% Cambodian, Han, Japanese, Lahu, Malay, MongolianAs has been said…Amuzing and confusing:)Susan Vargas Murphy  





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Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Exorcisms? of children in Ginetes documents

[João Ventura]

Hi John,

Yes, it's not a sin. But clearly the Church does believe that the devil 
might have been involved in the first baptism, and they need to exorcise it 
better. I guess it makes that makes the first one a satanic rite instead of 
a sin.

I understand the need for a second baptism, just to make sure. And I know 
that a rite of exorcism is part of baptism anyway. But clearly something is 
fishy about the need to state the exorcism explicitly. My theory about that 
is the one above - a need to affirm the power of the Church. Granted, it's 
my personal opinion, and I don't have time to research that deeper. I just 
find it funny from the records that they exorcise only on second baptisms. 
I'm assuming that the record reflects the rite and a stronger exorcise was 
performed on those babies.

João C. Ventura

On Tuesday, November 5, 2013 3:50:13 PM UTC+1, John Raposo wrote:
>
> The practice is the same today. It was never a sin (and still is not) for 
> a layman to baptize a child in case the child was at risk of dying before 
> baptism. Note many children "batizado pela partrira", or "a avó" (the 
> midwife or the grandmother). That is still the case today. However, the 
> baptism is then recorded in the church where the child would have been 
> baptized and and another baptism "sub condicione" is performed in case 
> there was anything invalid about the first baptism (like not using the 
> Trinitarian formula). In hospitals throughout the US, many Christian (not 
> necessarily Catholic) laymen, e.g. obstetricians, nurses, etc, baptize 
> babies who are born with a potentially life threatening conditions, with 
> the permission of the parent, of course.
>
> Thank you for the clarification.
>
> John 
>
>
>
>   On Tuesday, November 5, 2013 7:45 AM, João Ventura 
> > 
> wrote:
>  Hello, Terri (and John),
>
> My experience in seeing the baptism records is that the priest conducts an 
> exorcism when the children had already been baptized by a non-priest. In 
> some circumstances, people believed the baby would die without being 
> baptized so they'd baptize them themselves. However, since these people 
> were not priests, before the second baptism, the priest would perform a 
> symbolic exorcism.
>
> In the records above, if you look carefully, you'll notice the reference 
> to the prior 'lay' baptism, which motivated the need for the exorcism.
>
> In the early Christian church, any Christian could baptize another. But 
> the power of the church would be threatened if normal people started doing 
> these rites.. Indeed, between 1860 and 1910, Portugal kept passing laws to 
> create a Civil Register, so that the birth, marriage and death certificates 
> could be managed by the Government and not the Church. Always with little 
> results, until the Monarchy was abolished and the civil society took that 
> power from them. I guess the exorcism was done to show the people that they 
> had sinned in baptizing the baby, and that a real priest was needed.
>
> João C. Ventura
>
> On Tuesday, November 5, 2013 12:36:43 PM UTC+1, John Raposo wrote:
>
> As I understand it, it was and still is part of the Baptismal ceremony. 
> Baptism is the pouring of the water over the head baptizing "in the name of 
> the Father" etc. But before you get to the point, there is the 
> anointing with holy oils and the priest applying a grain or two of salt on 
> his thumb to the mouth of the baby. And then there is the rejection of 
> Satan, declared on the baby's behalf by the Godparents. Although I am not a 
> priest, I think the salt applied to the lips initiates a symbollic 
> expulsion of Satan from the newborn leaving him clean and open to receiving 
> Christ. Maybe there is a priest or religious on the list that can provide 
> clearer (and more accurate) information.
>
> John Miranda Raposo
>
>
>
>   On Tuesday, November 5, 2013 12:12 AM, Terri  wrote:
>  I found it creepy by interesting that in a few baptism records I needed 
> for children in Ginetes, the word  'exorcismos' appeared.  This does mean 
> exorcisms by a priest were performed right? or does this word have ANOTHER 
> meaning in Portuguese? I've attached two records below.
>  
> Terri Santos
> Researching Agua d'Alto, Agua de Pau, Ginetes, Vila Franca do Campo Sao 
> Pedro and Sao Miguel
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[AZORES-Genealogy] Re: São Pedro, P. Delgada S. Miguel

[João Ventura]

Hi José,

Yes, and no.

They still keep records in churches nowadays. The difference is that before 
1911 the only records were the church records. After that the Civil 
Registry started working, and the official certificates are the 'birth 
certificate' and not the 'baptism record'.

In order for the Civil Registry to work however, a law was passed that all 
the church records before 1911 had to be transferred to the Civil Registry. 
The priests then started new records that you may still be able to find in 
the churches or in the Archive of the local Diocese.

João C. Ventura

On Tuesday, November 5, 2013 5:59:57 PM UTC+1, Jose A Medeiros wrote:
>
> 1911 the last year I believe they kept records in churchs 
>
> On Tuesday, 5 November 2013 04:36:29 UTC-5, João Ventura wrote:
>
>> And a few more today, I believe...
>>
>> On Monday, October 28, 2013 5:08:18 PM UTC+1, Jose A Medeiros wrote:
>>>
>>> More baptism years added today
>>>
>>

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Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Translation help please....Flamengos

[Shirley Allegre]

This is how I read it:

Anna
DOB   6 March 1781
BAPT   14th of same month & year.
(Jose Garcia Duarte X Bernarda Francisca) natives this freguesia.
PATERNAL
Joao Garcia Duarte X Isabel Luis
MATERNAL
SARGENT Francisco Ignacio, native Divine Espirito Santo, place of Feteiras
X Rita Francisca,  native __ ( Same as Paternos??)  N.S. da Luz
GODPARENTS
Jose Silveira Gomes, son of ( Jose Silveira Gomes X Barbara Josepha, deceased)
AND  Francisca Bernards, daughter of (SARGENT Francisco Ignacio, deceased X 
Rita Francisca)
all this freguesia.

This all happened in Flamengos, Faial.

Shirley in CA


  - Original Message - 
  From: Pam Santos 
  To: azores@googlegroups.com 
  Sent: Sunday, November 03, 2013 6:28 PM
  Subject: Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Translation help pleaseFlamengos


  6 Mar 1781
  Paternal: Joao Garcia Duarte and Izabel Luis 
  Maternal: Sargent? Francisco Ignacio and Rita Francisca she is from Nossa 
Senhora da Luz 


  I don't know enough of towns on other islands so hopefully someone else can 
verify where he was from. maternal it is either Sarg with TA on upper right 
side or Jarq with the TA I think






  On Sun, Nov 3, 2013 at 5:39 PM, Lee  wrote:

I need help with the baptismal record of Anna, daughter of Jose Garcia 
Duarte and Bernarda Francisca which I've attached below:


http://culturacores.azores.gov.pt/biblioteca_digital/FAL-HT-FLAMENGOS-B-1764-1782/FAL-HT-FLAMENGOS-B-1764-1782_item1/P138.html

I know that the year of birth is either 1781 or 82; but can't make it out 
completely.

The real confusion I have is with the paternal and maternal grandparents 
who are mentioned the beginning of the record.  I read them as follows:

Paternal: Joao Garcia Duarte and Izabel Luis (Luisa?)
Maternal : J??? Francisco  and some other wording after his name (where 
he's from?) and Rita Francisca

Any and all help with the above greatly appreciatedI just can't make it 
all out.

Thanks!

Lee

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Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] where to next

[Teresa Costa Fraser]

Celeste,
 
I've been lurking on this Azores Google group for ages and was thrilled to 
see your post about the Alameda County Voter Registration Records.  I have 
been trying to track down several of my ancestors' naturalization records 
as well.  If anyone else is interested, here's the link to the collection 
at Cal State University East Bay 
http://library.csueastbay.edu/using-the-libraries/collections/library-special-collections/.
  Hopefully, 
I will find some additional clues.  
 
Regards, Teresa Costa Fraser
Dublin, California 
 
Antone Enos Costa (great grandfather)
b. 1867 Azores
d. 1915 Alameda County CA
Mount Saint Joseph Cemetery, aka All Saints or Portuguese Cemetery, 
Hayward, CA
 
John S. Davina (2nd great grandfather)
b. Pico, Azores 1838
d. 1913 Alameda County, CA 
Mount Saint Joseph Cemetery, aka All Saints or Portuguese Cemetery, 
Hayward, CA
 
Joseph S. Santos (3rd great grandfather)
b. 1826 Azores 
d. 1892 Alameda County, CA
Holy Ghost Cemetery, aka Holy Spirit Cemetery, Fremont, CA
 
Francisca (Luna) [?] Santos (3rd great grandfather)
b. About 1839 Alameda County, CA
d. 1890 Alameda County, CA
Holy Ghost Cemetery, aka Holy Spirit Cemetery, Fremont, CA
 
 
 
 

On Tuesday, November 5, 2013 9:41:20 AM UTC-8, celeste perry wrote:

> Good idea, Rosemarie.  I was looking for naturalization information for my 
> son-in-law's great-grandfather who lived in Oakland, CA.  I could not find 
> any information anywhere.  Because at the time I was looking, all census 
> info. was on microfilm, I needed to know the number of the district where 
> he voted.  I knew the address where he lived and went to the Voter 
> registration department for Alameda County.  
>  
> I was told that the district numbers changed each year so there was no way 
> to check the number.  As I was talking with the clerk, someone in the back 
> of the room came over and asked if I had checked the voter registration 
> forms that were filled out each time someone voted.  I had no idea such 
> forms were kept.  I was told they were in the, "Erickson collection."  When 
> I asked where that "collection" was kept, I was told it was in the archives 
> at Cal State Hayward.  (right near my house!).  
>  
> I looked at the Erickson collection, I found that the forms were in 
> alphabetical order and all but one form that had been signed listed either 
> Portugal or Azores as place of birth.  On that ONE form, the island 
> (Flores) was listed.  This was the lead I needed.  Also, that form had the 
> information that he had been naturalized in a court in San Francisco, CA.  
> I still don't know why someone who lived in Oakland went to San Francisco 
> to be naturalized (this was before a bridge was build between Oakland and 
> San Francisco and also before the 1906 earthquake.  There was no 
> naturalization papers that survived the earthquake; however, I did find 
> Frank Sousa's baptism when I went village by village in Flores!  I did the 
> happy dance that day.
> Celeste
>  
> Celeste Perry ccgr...@yahoo.com 
>
>
>   On Tuesday, November 5, 2013 9:24 AM, rcapodc 
> > 
> wrote:
>Mike, just had a brainstorm (as was heading out the door to go vote!), 
> have you checked the Voting Registers for the town where he lived??  When a 
> person is a Naturalized Cit. it usually states it on the Voting Registers 
> and will say the date and which Court handled the Naturalization. 
>  
> Rosemarie 
>   
>  *From:* Mike  
> *Sent:* Tuesday, November 05, 2013 8:51 AM
> *To:* azo...@googlegroups.com  
> *Subject:* [AZORES-Genealogy] where to next
>  
>  I've been trying to find my GGgrandfathers naturalization paperwork 
> without much luck, I'm hoping that there would be more specific info just 
> to make certain who I think he is, is really him.
> In an interview in the Standard Times in New Bedford, Ma on March 30, 1941 
> he states he became a citizen on 9/5/1901. He then took his wife and 
> daughter to Fayal 28 days later on 9/29/1901, he claimes to have returned 
> with his family on March 17th, 1902 but it was actually on May 17th, 1902 
> aboard the ship Peninsular with his wife and daughter.
> He was Antone Perry Sr. (Antonio Silveira Pereira), his wife Mary Perry 
> (Maria Leal da Rosa), and my Ggrandma Mary Perry (Maria Pereira)
> Now on paper he seems to get the date of the day correct, but yet he's 
> almost always wrong about the year.
> I looked for his naturalization and passport at the local level, county 
> level, state level, Nara, US immigration index search, I've also asked the 
> courts at the town, city, county, state and federal levels and they tell me 
> they have nothing. As for me trying to find him or anyone else in the CCA 
> records I'm almost ready to concede defeat, I can hardly match up the 
> information I have recieved from all of you with your translations.
> Can anyone help point me the right direction?
>
> Mike,
> Piedade, Pico, Cedros, Faial
>  
>
>
>   

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Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Family Tree Dna results

[Diane Cox]

Susan,
It is interesting because I have matched your brother, but not you on
Family Finder.  I also came back Western European and North Africian.
Diane


On Wed, Nov 6, 2013 at 12:09 AM,  wrote:

> Fascinating, Susan.
>
> I bet it came as a real surprise.
> And here I thought I was special with my 2.97% Native American. :-)
>
> My father got 6.84% Native American (Central American) from the Pima
> tribe. The map shows that is Mexico.
> But my map shows Mexico, along with all of the other Central American
> countries, plus Columbia and Bolivia in South America. The tribes are Maya,
> Pima, Surui, Columbian.
>
> Just why my results are more specific than my father's and get closer to
> my known origins in Chile, makes me wonder.
>
> Doug da Rocha Holmes
> Sacramento, California
> Pico & Terceira Genealogist
> 916-550-1618
> www.dholmes.com
>
>
>   Original Message 
> Subject: Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Family Tree Dna results
> From: Susan Vargas Murphy 
> Date: Tue, November 05, 2013 10:33 pm
> To: azores@googlegroups.com
> Cc: Azores@googlegroups.com
>
> I thought I would "join the cocktail party" because I tested both my
> brother and myself on Family Finder and we are of 100% Azorean ancestry.
>
> My brother came back 85.8% Western European….(French and Spanish) and 14.2
> % North African (Mozabite)
>
> I came back as 97.58% Western European (Spanish) and 2.4% Cambodian, Han,
> Japanese, Lahu, Malay, Mongolian
>
> As has been said…Amuzing and confusing:)
>
> Susan Vargas Murphy
>
>
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[AZORES-Genealogy] Re: Sao Pedro records online CCa

[Jose A Medeiros]

I am waiting for S. Roque too
On Friday, 25 October 2013 12:33:41 UTC-4, Pam Santos wrote:
>
> So they have added Sao Pedro, Ponta Delgada online on CCA site.
>

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Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Family Tree Dna results

[Cheri Mello]

Diane C,

You will find that you will match one sibling (such as Susan's brother) but
not the other (such as Susan) beginning around the 4th cousin and beyond
level.  The probability is in your Family Finder section, Frequently Asked
Questions (FAQs), # 26.
Cheri Mello
Listowner, Azores-Gen
Researching: Vila Franca, Ponta Garca, Ribeira Quente, Ribeira das Tainhas,
Achada

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Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Family Tree Dna results

[Pam Santos]

Sorry Shirley I guess I did not answer this email. Her name is Agnes Cabral
and I don't think so.


On Wed, Nov 6, 2013 at 12:28 PM, Cheri Mello  wrote:

> Diane C,
>
> You will find that you will match one sibling (such as Susan's brother)
> but not the other (such as Susan) beginning around the 4th cousin and
> beyond level.  The probability is in your Family Finder section, Frequently
> Asked Questions (FAQs), # 26.
> Cheri Mello
> Listowner, Azores-Gen
> Researching: Vila Franca, Ponta Garca, Ribeira Quente, Ribeira das
> Tainhas, Achada
>
> --
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Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Family Tree Dna results

[Diane]

Thank you!  I just found the Middle Eastern reference.  I thought 
it might be in my non-Azorean ancestry, but having it in Susan's 
brother's may narrow it down.
Diane



On Wed Nov 06 14:28:33 CST 2013, Cheri Mello  
wrote:

> Diane C,
> 
> You will find that you will match one sibling (such as Susan's 
> brother) but
> not the other (such as Susan) beginning around the 4th cousin and 
> beyond
> level.  The probability is in your Family Finder section, 
> Frequently Asked
> Questions (FAQs), # 26.
> Cheri Mello
> Listowner, Azores-Gen
> Researching: Vila Franca, Ponta Garca, Ribeira Quente, Ribeira 
> das Tainhas,
> Achada
> 
> -- For options, such as changing to List, Digest, Abridged, or No 
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Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Family Tree Dna results

[rcapodc]

Diane, I also match Susan’s brother but not Susan. We have known (paper trail) 
for years that we are direct 6th cousins yet her brother caries more DNA of the 
line that Susan does. Cheri looked into our CM’s and I DO match Susan but 
FamilyTreeDNA doesn’t show it because it is smaller than Susan’s brother! 

Rosemarie 

From: Diane Cox 
Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2013 12:03 PM
To: azores@googlegroups.com 
Subject: Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Family Tree Dna results

Susan,
It is interesting because I have matched your brother, but not you on Family 
Finder.  I also came back Western European and North Africian.
Diane



On Wed, Nov 6, 2013 at 12:09 AM,  wrote:

  Fascinating, Susan.

  I bet it came as a real surprise.
  And here I thought I was special with my 2.97% Native American. :-)


  My father got 6.84% Native American (Central American) from the Pima tribe. 
The map shows that is Mexico.
  But my map shows Mexico, along with all of the other Central American 
countries, plus Columbia and Bolivia in South America. The tribes are Maya, 
Pima, Surui, Columbian.

  Just why my results are more specific than my father's and get closer to my 
known origins in Chile, makes me wonder.


  Doug da Rocha Holmes
  Sacramento, California
  Pico & Terceira Genealogist
  916-550-1618
  www.dholmes.com



 Original Message 
Subject: Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Family Tree Dna results

From: Susan Vargas Murphy 
Date: Tue, November 05, 2013 10:33 pm
To: azores@googlegroups.com
Cc: Azores@googlegroups.com


I thought I would "join the cocktail party" because I tested both my 
brother and myself on Family Finder and we are of 100% Azorean ancestry. 

My brother came back 85.8% Western European….(French and Spanish) and 14.2 
% North African (Mozabite)

I came back as 97.58% Western European (Spanish) and 2.4% Cambodian, Han, 
Japanese, Lahu, Malay, Mongolian

As has been said…Amuzing and confusing:)

Susan Vargas Murphy

 
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Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Re: Sao Pedro records online CCa

[Pam Santos]

It looks like they are only adding records on Monday and Tuesdays!!


On Wed, Nov 6, 2013 at 12:03 PM, Jose A Medeiros
wrote:

> I am waiting for S. Roque too
>
> On Friday, 25 October 2013 12:33:41 UTC-4, Pam Santos wrote:
>
>> So they have added Sao Pedro, Ponta Delgada online on CCA site.
>>
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[AZORES-Genealogy] Mt. St Joseph Cemetery, Hayward, CA

[celeste perry]

Hi Teresa,
   When I searched the voter registration records, I was able to actually look 
at the binders myself.  I am not sure if that is still possible.  Be persistent 
and you may be able to look yourself.
   I have a database for the burials at Mt. St. Joseph Cemetery in Hayward.  
Here is what I found buried in the graves owned by John Davner, where your 
ancestors are buried:
 
John Davner, born 1875, died of cancer in 1889, buried 1913
John Davina, born 11/24/1913, died 11/27/113, 75 years, born Azores, last lived 
in Palomares Canyon 
Frances Aurora Davner, died 4/23/1929, 71 or 72 years old, born CN
Eugenia Costa, died 11944
Ernest Costa, died 1941
Joseph Costa, died 1939
Antonia Costa, died 1916
Stillborn Houston, buried 1920, "on top of uncle," from Richmond
 Manuel Garcia, died 4/21/1931, 78 years old
Urselsa Estrenoz, died 1895, buried 1913, born 1860, lived in Hayward

  Hope this helps you.
Celeste Perry ccgran...@yahoo.com

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[AZORES-Genealogy] Re: Exorcisms? of children in Ginetes documents

[Terri]

Thanks for all your answers. It  gave me more insight about why a child's 
document would say 'exorcism'.  I had first even thought that it could have 
been a seisure or something they saw in a child and mistook it for being 
'possessed by the devil' since they wouldn't have known much about medical 
conditions like that in that era.  But your explanations made alot of 
sense. 
 

On Tuesday, November 5, 2013 12:10:21 AM UTC-5, Terri wrote:

>  I found it creepy by interesting that in a few baptism records I needed 
> for children in Ginetes, the word  'exorcismos' appeared.  This does mean 
> exorcisms by a priest were performed right? or does this word have ANOTHER 
> meaning in Portuguese? I've attached two records below.
>  
> Terri Santos
> Researching Agua d'Alto, Agua de Pau, Ginetes, Vila Franca do Campo Sao 
> Pedro and Sao Miguel
>

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