Re: Martyrdom of the Bab : understandings and misunderstandings
Scott wrote: < As to the Muslim idea that all He had to do was speak and be saved, I am not entirely sure they have a good embrace of what His motives were at the time. Purely my own opinion, of course, but on this particular incident we have little else to go on but our own understandings and misunderstandings.> Scott, Susan, David: Earlier today I was reading the following quote from Abdu'l-Baha's *Divine Philosophy*. After reading your recent posts it occured to me that this may explain the different conclusions with regard to the Bab's disappearance and return to his cell. "The senses mistake a mirage for water; the eyes see the sun move; your train or boat seems immobile and the landscape seems to pass by, planets look like fixed points of light; but they have measurable dimensions. A lighted point set in rotation appears like a circle. These examples show the senses subject to error. How can we put our trust in them? The test of logic is just as imperfect, for were this criterion perfect there would never have been the continual clash of opinion as to the sacred texts. How can they be interpreted by logic if the means be at fault? Inspiration, what is it? Whence comes it? Is that which reaches our heart divine or satanic? How can we judge? It is no proof of intelligence to reject everything which does not strike the senses. Nay, rather, such a one is brother to the animal. The cow has no idea of God; she does not know the soul. So the only difference between her highness the cow and a materialistic philosopher is that the latter takes a great deal of trouble! It is not a special or exclusive privilege to be the prisoner of one's senses; the cow is the example of this theory. Man has a sacred power beyond the confines of the senses. The power of the rational mind is the power of the soul over the senses. This cycle is radiating love and the bestowals of God are descending like unto rain. Man's glory lies in the difference between him and the animals." pp 94-95 Lovingly, Sandra __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Martyrdom of the Bab
Hi Patti, > even I, a relative novice with a rifle, can > group shots in a 12" diameter at 100 yards). I suspect you're using a relatively modern rifle. It would be different results using a 1830's or 40's French or Russian substandard guns sold to Iranian military. > I wonder it the sketch of the bodies mentioned is still in existence? It is, but it's best for me not to say more. Regards, ahang. This communication is for use by the intended recipient and contains information that may be privileged, confidential or copyrighted under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby formally notified that any use, copying or distribution of this e-mail, in whole or in part, is strictly prohibited. Please notify the sender by return e-mail and delete this e-mail from your system. Unless explicitly and conspicuously designated as "E-Contract Intended", this e-mail does not constitute a contract offer, a contract amendment, or an acceptance of a contract offer. This e-mail does not constitute a consent to the use of sender's contact information for direct marketing purposes or for transfers of data to third parties. Francais Deutsch Italiano Espanol Portugues Japanese Chinese Korean www.invista.com/email_disclaimer.shtml __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Martyrdom of the Bab
"Fourth, most firing squads consist of 5 to 8 soldiers. No military commander is going to waste that much powder and bullet for the execution of a single convict, regardless of the rank of the prisoner. . . . " Hello Ahang, I was just reading The Dawn-Breakers, so it's fresh in my mind, and based on the conditions of the bodies (as described below) it is probable that all 750 men fired. Depending on the skill of the marksman and the quality of the rifles it wouldn't have been that difficult for most of them to hit their targets (even I, a relative novice with a rifle, can group shots in a 12" diameter at 100 yards). I wonder it the sketch of the bodies mentioned is still in existence? Patti "Contrariwise to the previous occasion, when only the cord with which they were suspended had been shot into pieces, this time their bodies were shattered and were blended into one mass of mingled flesh and bone.[1] Had you believed in Me, O wayward generation, were the last words of the Báb to the gazing multitude as the regiment was preparing to fire the final volley, every one of you would have followed the example of this youth, who stood in rank above most of you, and willingly would have sacrificed himself in My path. The day will come when you will have recognized Me; that day I shall have ceased to be with you.[2][1 According to A Travellers Narrative (p. 45), the breasts [of the victims] were riddled and their limbs were completely dissected, except their faces, which were but little marred.] (Shoghi Effendi, The Dawn-Breakers, p. 514) "I have heard Haji Ali-Askar relate the following: An official of the Russian consulate, to whom I was related, showed me that same sketch on the very day it was drawn. It was such a faithful portrait of the Báb that I looked upon! No bullet had struck His forehead, His cheeks, or His lips. I gazed upon a smile which seemed to be still lingering upon His countenance. His body, however, had been severely mutilated. I could recognize the arms and head of His companion, who seemed to be holding Him in his embrace. (Shoghi Effendi, The Dawn-Breakers, p. 518) __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Martyrdom of the Bab
>The argument "He is God!" may work with those who believe in God parting seas or doing other cute miracles, but since harmony of faith and science is enjoined upon us, let's look for rational explanations. "He is God" is not meant to be either an "argument" nor a fundamentalistic response. It simply states my perspective: 1. I don't know what happened or why 2. I don't care what happened...e.g. I do not need miracles for my faith 3. I will never know what happeneddespite what historians might conjecture I only imply "He doeth whatsoever He willeth." The circumstance, reasons, etc. are irrelevant to mepersonally. That's all!no more, no less. James __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Martyrdom of the Bab
The argument "He is God!" may work with those who believe in God parting seas or doing other cute miracles, but since harmony of faith and science is enjoined upon us, let's look for rational explanations. Let's do a little geometry to help understand why a military commander wouldn't arraying rows of 250 men to execute the Bab. As I mentioned earlier, if 750 men were used, then each row had to be about 210 yards long. Let's assume that the firing squad stood 40 yards from the Bab. Further, let's assume that the Bab was positioned in the mid-point of the firing squad. Now imagine a triangle with a side 105 and another side of 40 yards. That means the hypotenuse would be: square-root of (105^2 + 40^2) = square-root of ( 12625) = 112 yards. That is, the soldier at the end of each row would be 112 from the Bab. I don't know what sort of muskets they were equipped with, but my guess is that they had Russian guns, which at the time would be .58 or .54 caliber guns with a range of about 120-150 yards. So, attempting to reach a target at 112 yards with such a gun is bit foolish and no commander would allow it. The problem is more complicated than that since the radial accuracy has to be considered. When it came to accuracy (or lack of "bias"), 1840's Russian-made muskets had an error band of 3 inches/10 yard. That is, if one tried to hit a target at 10 yards, typically you hit within 3 inches to either side (assuming perfect conditions). But if you tried a target at 20 yards, then the error band would be 6 inches (i.e. on the average you'll hit an range of plus or minus 6 inches). So to hit a target at 112 yards, that would mean an error range of 32 inches to either side. That is, you can aim at a target at 112 yards, but on the average you'll hit only within 32 inches of the target to either side, and that's assuming the best of conditions and no shaking hands, etc. A simple exercise is to imagine that you're standing at a corner of a football field trying to hit the diagonally opposite corner of the field. It's next to impossible with an old musket and the regiment's commander would know that and would not be wasting his resources. Regards, ahang. Please respond to "Baha'i Studies" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent by:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: "Baha'i Studies" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> cc: Subject:Re: Martyrdom of the Bab This communication is for use by the intended recipient and contains information that may be privileged, confidential or copyrighted under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby formally notified that any use, copying or distribution of this e-mail, in whole or in part, is strictly prohibited. Please notify the sender by return e-mail and delete this e-mail from your system. Unless explicitly and conspicuously designated as "E-Contract Intended", this e-mail does not constitute a contract offer, a contract amendment, or an acceptance of a contract offer. This e-mail does not constitute a consent to the use of sender's contact information for direct marketing purposes or for transfers of data to third parties. Francais Deutsch Italiano Espanol Portugues Japanese Chinese Korean www.invista.com/email_disclaimer.shtml >Are there other theories? He is God! __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Martyrdom of the Bab
>Are there other theories? He is God! __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Martyrdom of the Bab
The issue of "750 soldiers" is more complicated than might appear. First, it is reported that the men stood in 3 rows. That makes it 250 men per row. Assuming that they stood shoulder to shoulder, each man must have needed a minimum of 75 cm space for himself and his arms/gun. That's a width of about 188 meters, or 210 yards, or just think of the length of 2 football fields. If you consider the picture of the barrack, clearly it was not that wide. Second, even if they could have taken that much space, only the men in the middle had a clear shot at the two prisoners (the Bab and Anis). The men beyond that, and certainly towards the endpoint of each row could not even see the target, so what were they shooting at?! Third, the 3 rows could not have shot simultaneously. Rather, one row shot and sat down. Then the row behind it (2nd row) shot and sat down. And then the 3rd row shot and was finished. But this won't work either since black powder makes very thick smoke with considerable sulfuric smell, which is nasty as all can get. As soon as the first row shot (supposedly, 250 shots!), the next two rows of soldiers would loose all visibility and would be gasping for air. Fourth, most firing squads consist of 5 to 8 soldiers. No military commander is going to waste that much powder and bullet for the execution of a single convict, regardless of the rank of the prisoner. So, most likely, the regiment consisted of 750 men, but actually about a half dozen or so of soldiers participated as the firing squad. The problem with this theory, however, is that all eyewitness accounts report that a very thick smoke covered the barrack and the adjacent rooftops, which means that probably more men were involved with the actual shooting, but nevertheless it couldn't have been too many -- certainly no more than a couple of dozen men. Are there other theories? Regards, ahang. Please respond to "Baha'i Studies" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent by:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: "Baha'i Studies" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> cc: Subject:Re: Martyrdom of the Bab "We don't even know for sure it was a miracle. Remember, the regiment in question had no wish to kill the Bab." Susan, Yes, it's true that the leader of the regiment did not wish to kill the Bab; however, I doubt that he could have ordered his 750 soldiers to shoot for the ropes and for all of them to actually miss the Bab and Mirza Muhammad Ali, while still hitting the rope. That would probably constitue a miracle in and of itself, let alone the miracle of 750 men keeping such an order secret. Patti __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] This communication is for use by the intended recipient and contains information that may be privileged, confidential or copyrighted under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby formally notified that any use, copying or distribution of this e-mail, in whole or in part, is strictly prohibited. Please notify the sender by return e-mail and delete this e-mail from your system. Unless explicitly and conspicuously designated as "E-Contract Intended", this e-mail does not constitute a contract offer, a contract amendment, or an acceptance of a contract offer. This e-mail does not constitute a consent to the use of sender's contact information for direct marketing purposes or for transfers of data to third parties. Francais Deutsch Italiano Espanol Portugues Japanese Chinese Korean www.invista.com/email_disclaimer.shtml "We don't even know for sure it was a miracle. Remember, the regiment in question had no wish to kill the Bab." Susan, Yes, it's true that the leader of the regiment did not wish to kill the Bab; however, I doubt that he could have ordered his 750 soldiers to shoot for the ropes and for all of them to actually miss the Bab and Mirza Muhammad Ali, while still hitting the rope. That would probably constitue a miracle in and of itself, let alone the miracle of 750 men keeping such an order secret. Patti __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[E
Re: Martyrdom of the Bab
"We don't even know for sure it was a miracle. Remember, the regiment in question had no wish to kill the Bab." Susan, Yes, it's true that the leader of the regiment did not wish to kill the Bab; however, I doubt that he could have ordered his 750 soldiers to shoot for the ropes and for all of them to actually miss the Bab and Mirza Muhammad Ali, while still hitting the rope. That would probably constitue a miracle in and of itself, let alone the miracle of 750 men keeping such an order secret. Patti __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Martyrdom of the Bab
> suppose He just walked or ran back while the smoke was in the air. How long > would it have taken Him to get back, and could He have done so in time if I'm not certain exactly how far apart the two doors were. But, from this description in The Dawn-Breakers, which places the nail in the wall from which they were suspended adjacent to the room, it appears to be a short walk. Nabil visited the location himself and gives the following description. Patti "Siyyid Husayn had remained confined in the same room in which he had spent the previous night with the Báb . . . "Sam Khan ordered his men to drive a nail into the pillar that lay between the door of the room that Siyyid Husayn occupied and the entrance to the adjoining one, and to make fast two ropes to that nail, from which the Báb and His companion were to be separately suspended." (Shoghi Effendi, The Dawn-Breakers, p. 510) __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Martyrdom of the Bab
In a message dated 5/12/2004 7:41:44 AM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Another question springs to mind on this topic: why did the miracle have to happen in the first place? If miracles are no proof of Prophethood, what was the point of it all? Dear David, We don't even know for sure it was a miracle. Remember, the regiment in question had no wish to kill the Bab. As a historian I don't really ask whether or not a miracle occurred. I tend to ask 'why is this story being told?' In the case of the Dawnbreakers the function of the story is to illustrate that the Manifestation was finally the Master of His own fate and that any sacrifice He made was done voluntarily. Keep in mind that most Muslims believe that God would never allow a prophet to be killed. That's one of the reasons they deny the crucifixtion. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Martyrdom of the Bab
In a message dated 5/12/2004 6:41:26 AM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Another question springs to mind on this topic: why did the miracle have to happen in the first place? If miracles are no proof of Prophethood, what was the point of it all? Couldn't God have just made sure that the Bab got all out He wanted to say the first time and not had the Bab miraculously disappear? Evidently God wanted it to happen the way it did, but if miracles don't count as proof I'm not sure why He wanted it to happen that way. Abdu'l Baha says miracles "count" as proof to those who see them. That is their limitation. Those who have other reasons to believe without seeing will take the miracle as further proof for their belief but it won't count to those who do not already believe. Remember, if you will, that Thomas was not chastised for asking to see the marks in Jesus' hands and side, but Jesus did say that those who accepted without seeing were particularly blessed; I think that applies here as well. Regards, Scott __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: what was on the Bab's mind
In a message dated 5/12/2004 3:58:06 AM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: actually i think we understnad pretty well what was on the Bab's mind, and it is found in the Molsem denial. He told some people who wanted to execute Him that He had a conversation to finish, they said, no. He said whatever. and then He went with them, and then He went and finished His conversation. if He had stood there and proclaijed Himself the Mahdi, they woulda naled Him anyway, and said later, if only He had gone bacvk to His cell and finmished Hios conversation. we would all beleive. fear of death? no way. Uh, except that conversation was with a Christian, not a Muslim. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Martyrdom of the Bab
Another question springs to mind on this topic: why did the miracle have to happen in the first place? If miracles are no proof of Prophethood, what was the point of it all? Couldn't God have just made sure that the Bab got all out He wanted to say the first time and not had the Bab miraculously disappear? Evidently God wanted it to happen the way it did, but if miracles don't count as proof I'm not sure why He wanted it to happen that way. David _ Need more speed? Get Xtra JetStream @ http://xtra.co.nz/jetstream __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
what was on the Bab's mind
actually i think we understnad pretty well what was on the Bab's mind, and it is found in the Molsem denial. He told some people who wanted to execute Him that He had a conversation to finish, they said, no. He said whatever. and then He went with them, and then He went and finished His conversation. if He had stood there and proclaijed Himself the Mahdi, they woulda naled Him anyway, and said later, if only He had gone bacvk to His cell and finmished Hios conversation. we would all beleive.fear of death? no way.mildly aggravated at spending His last moments with burnt bat guano and brimstone on His breath? possibly.laffing Himself silly at the powerlessness of the entirety to the earth to prevent Him from doing something He Said He would do?i think so."surely He wants them all, becuase He made them all."--shoghi! effendi"3 a.m. in las vegas, who is hanging around;9 a.m. in manhattan, dust swirls around."--firestormNo banners. No pop-ups. No kidding.Make My Way your home on the Web - http://www.myway.com __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
