Re: To Brent: one point
Susan, It's the same here in Thailand and most of South East Asian countries. There has been much emphasis on Ruhi classes and hence the teaching and enrollment has stopped. The communities have been encouraged to finish up to Ruhi book 7 and many have done so but after that they have been trying to find more and more recruits to start new Ruhi book 1 book 2, etc. I haven't seen any enrollment this year and no teaching going on here. regards, Firouz Well, there's the rub Hasan. Here in the US our enrollment rates have been steadily decreasing as Ruhi is being implemented. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: To Brent: one point
Susan, At 12:42 AM 12/10/2004, you wrote: Mind you, I said they were discouraged from having other deepening *classes* not from deepening independently. First the two-way TV sets have to be installed in our homes. Then they can monitor our individual deepening practices, too. Mark A. Foster * http://markfoster.net Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: No Personal Opinions in Ruhi
In a message dated 12/10/2004 7:04:01 A.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: unity of thought refers to keeping one's mind and heart centered on Baha'u'llah and `Abdu'l-Baha, i.e., the Covenant. It has nothing directly to do with the fundamentalist indoctrination process used by Ruhi. Dear Mark, This is how the term is used by Abdu'l-Baha in the Seven Candles of Unity: "The second candle is unity of thought in world undertakings, the consummation of which will erelong be witnessed" That's seems to refer more to the UN reaching a consensus than Baha'is being "on the same page" even about the Covenant. I just went back and looked at Baha'u'llah's Tablet of Unity. The phrase doesn't even occur there. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: No Personal Opinions in Ruhi
Michael, At 08:36 AM 12/10/2004, you wrote: Unity in diversity does not imply uniformity! Why is there so much objection to a methodical system being introduced? The objections I have seen are not to a methodical system being introduced. They are to this particular methodical system being introduced. The study circle brings together a variety of people with a variety of opinions in a harmonious, welcoming atmosphere of learning (IMO). I would be interested in the demographics of long-term Ruhi participation and how it correlates with the general Baha'i populations in different areas. My guess* would is that we would see a negative correlation between participation and SES (socioeconomic status). The objections I see seem to be actuated by prejudice and an unwillingness to participate. That is not fair, Michael. All, or most, of the people here with degrees of unfavorable views of Ruhi have attended Ruhi meetings. Prejudice refers to prejudging based on stereotypes. In my case, I intentionally kept an open mind before going to my first Ruhi meeting. Mark A. Foster * http://markfoster.net Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Ether and Evolution and Infallibility
Brent, thank you for a very thoughtful reply. It certainly helps me to understand how you think about these kinds of issues and why you believe as you do. I think that there probably are many Baha's who have similar views as yours. Your thoughtful analysis and sensitive approach are appreciated. A few comments to your post follow: Ron wrote: I brought up two examples of areas where a strictly literal view of the infallibility of the Writings (in this case the Writings of Abdul Baha) leads some Baha'is to see the necessity to dis-believe in the science of evolution and quantum physics. Do you believe in the need to come up with a Baha'i parallel evolution and an alternative Baha'i quantum physics? I ask this because I am genuinely curious. I have seen public public statements by high level Baha'i individuals in the past, about their apparent requirement that good Baha'is have a strictly literal understanding of infallibility. I find this problematic but I would like your honest opinion on the two specific instances I mention above. Brent responded (excerpts): Big subject. I think I'll start with the broad perspective, then come down to the specifics The Master has linked light and heat and magnetism as waves of the ether. I think it was Steve Friberg, who is a physicist, who said that in his view, the Master's descriptions fit very well into modern quantum physics; are merely a difference of terminology. My own non-scientific view includes this: If you start with the assumption that the amplitude and frequency of waves tells you something about the substance through which they are passing; then light passing through empty space gives evidence that it is passing through a more dense substance than anything else in the universe Ron replies: Yes, I understand your point of view, and I can certainly not disprove it. But the theory of the ether was disproven by a specific scientific experiment, the Michelson-Morley experiment. It is virtually impossible that this could be overturned. As an analogy, we will certainly come up with better understandings of gravity in the future, but we will not ever find that objects in the earths gravitational field fall *upwards* rather than downwards. Brent wrote: And even if a Counsellor stood up and criticized people who did not believe in ether, I would probably say, So what? I do not over-value the views of eminent Baha'is. But I don't see this as a matter of compulsion. Ron replies: that is a key point to me, the importance of lack of compulsion on theological beliefs. But there are various kinds of compulsion. When I heard a most prominent BahaI describe anyone who questions a literally inerrant understanding of infallibility as being an attacker of the faith, it curdled my blood. He made specific reference to a position of belief that infallibility is related to sinlessness. This is a position I consider reasonable that I learned from this list (Dr. Maneck), and I certainly do not consider myself as an attacker of the faith. That expression struck me as particularly mean-spirited. Ron __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Book of Daniel fulfilled
Hello James adn thank you for your comments, James Mock wrote: What is a known law? If you had asked people 600 years ago, they would have proven to you that the world is flat. We cannot accept things known today as scientific fact. . James, what you say is certainly ture in some instances. But the theory of the ether was disproven by a specific scientific experiment, the Michelson-Morley experiment. It is virtually impossible that this could be overturned. As an analogy, we will certainly come up with better understandings of gravity in the future, but we will not ever find that objects in the earths gravitational field fall *upwards* rather than downwards. So, if a Prophet writes about objects falling upwards due to the force fo gravity, thgen I think it is fair to say that He is speaking symbolically and not literally. Baha'u'llah, I believe, made precisely this point when He ridiculed anyone who believed that Christ rose physcially into the clouds and into the heavens. Do you see my point? Ron __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
oops!
A previous message stated: literal interpretation of a specific very ...that was supposed to be speicific verse __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: To Brent: one point
It's the same here in Thailand and most of South East Asian countries. There has been much emphasis on Ruhi classes and hence the teaching and enrollment has stopped. I recently read a recent report noting one cluster in Cambodia that has grown from 500 Baha'is to over 2000, in a relatively short period of time.and the process appears to be spreading. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Can the Baha'i Faith be a Big Tent or not?
While encouraging those Bahais who are upset about the Ruhi Method to get over it and move on, Dick Detweiler wrote : Surely the tent is big enough for that? I agree with him and I am not too concerned about the Ruhi methods. I have attended Ruhi classes and they dont bother me, although I fail to see how much good will come out of them either. To me, Ruhi is irrelevant to the big picture, but the question of whether or not the BahaI Faith can be a big tent is relevant. I believe than the Faith is shirking in numbers and in general failing to excite enthusiasm because we are projecting ourselves as a very small tent. I believe that there could be a big demand for a Faith that allows people to believe in religion but also in science and reason. I also believe that the Writings of the Faith offer us the option to be just that sort of community. But in practice, I believe we project an image of being another literal, inerrant religion like evangelical Christianity or ultra-conservative Islam. I dont think there is a market for such a new religion because there are already an excess of such religions, and people can readily see the problems they bring about. If we believe in a literally inerrant scripture (which we call the Writings) then how do we differ from evangelical Christians who believe the same about the Bible, or ultra conservative Muslims who believe the same about the Quran? Of course, we can just say our scriptures are inerrant and theirs arent, but they say the same themselves about their scriptures. And, most importantly, doesnt Bahaullah caution against precisely such a literal inerrant approach in His Book of Certitude? This major theme of the Book of Certitude seems to be something that never gets discussed and never is taken seriously. Its hard to even discuss this topic, but if we ignore it because of the pain and sensitivity involved, then we will continue to be seen as being far to the right of evangelical Christianity, a sort of return-to-Medieval attitudes religion, rather than a viable religion for the future. Ron __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Can the Baha'i Faith be a Big Tent or not?
Oh, one other point I wanted to make but I forgot. It is my impression that, in the Book of Certitude, Baha'u'llah makes a case that the over-emphasis on literalism by proponents of relgion is a leading cause for the decline of religious faith and the declining respect for religion. Am I correct in my impression? I believe that Baha'u'lah would make the same criticism today of Baha'i attitudes, that He made when He wrote the Book of Certitude. On Friday, December 10, 2004, at 09:27AM, Ronald Stephens [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: While encouraging those Bahais who are upset about the Ruhi Method to get over it and move on, Dick Detweiler wrote : Surely the tent is big enough for that? I agree with him and I am not too concerned about the Ruhi methods. I have attended Ruhi classes and they dont bother me, although I fail to see how much good will come out of them either. To me, Ruhi is irrelevant to the big picture, but the question of whether or not the BahaI Faith can be a big tent is relevant. I believe than the Faith is shirking in numbers and in general failing to excite enthusiasm because we are projecting ourselves as a very small tent. I believe that there could be a big demand for a Faith that allows people to believe in religion but also in science and reason. I also believe that the Writings of the Faith offer us the option to be just that sort of community. But in practice, I believe we project an image of being another literal, inerrant religion like evangelical Christianity or ultra-conservative Islam. I dont think there is a market for such a new religion because there are already an excess of such religions, and people can readily see the problems they bring about. If we believe in a literally inerrant scripture (which we call the Writings) then how do we differ from evangelical Christians who believe the same about the Bible, or ultra conservative Muslims who believe the same about the Quran? Of course, we can just say our scriptures are inerrant and theirs arent, but they say the same themselves about their scriptures. And, most importantly, doesnt Bahaullah caution against precisely such a literal inerrant approach in His Book of Certitude? This major theme of the Book of Certitude seems to be something that never gets discussed and never is taken seriously. Its hard to even discuss this topic, but if we ignore it because of the pain and sensitivity involved, then we will continue to be seen as being far to the right of evangelical Christianity, a sort of return-to-Medieval attitudes religion, rather than a viable religion for the future. Ron __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Ruhi, Prolonged Discussions
In a message dated 12/10/2004 6:55:37 AM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The question I would ask is how does "thinking about the implications of the Writings" differ from "personal interpretation"? Seems to be the same question I asked myself, and the conclusion I drew was that the Ruhi editors opinion (personal interpretation) is supposed to supersede what the Writings say about reading the revelations and meditating upon them. Reading the text and meditating on the text is what the writings TELL us to do. Yet the Ruhi editors seem to think otherwise. Regards, Scott __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: No Personal Opinions in Ruhi
I said: Seems a tad hypocritical to me but that is just my take on this whole exchange. I just want to say that after I posted I noted that here is someone who has taken a year long vacation from just about anything Baha'i telling others to get off their fanny and do something. Dick Am I the pot or the kettle? D. _ Dont just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Can the Baha'i Faith be a Big Tent or not?
Ron, At 11:27 AM 12/10/2004, you wrote: I dont think there is a market for such a new religion because there are already an excess of such religions, and people can readily see the problems they bring about. I am just guessing, but ... The Baha'i Faith is a religion which *appears* to be to the left on political, economic, and social issues and which *appears* (perhaps without a closer inspection) to be to the right on questions of morality. To many European Americans, and in the framework of conventional social norms and definitions of categories, the Baha'i Faith may appear inconsistent. However, perhaps this explains, in part, why, in South Carolina, a couple of predominantly African American evangelical churches became Baha'i centers (along with the preachers and their congregations), but why nothing similar has ever, to my knowledge, happened with predominantly European American churches. In other words, it is fairly common for African American, but not European American, evangelicals to be liberal, or radical, on social issues but conservative on theological ones. Why, officially or not, did most of those African American Baha'is in the deep South leave the Faith? I think that there are at least two reasons: 1. There was nothing to replace the neighborhood Black church which, for many people (especially those in rural areas), functions as a kind of community center. 2. The emphasis on Jesus was replaced by an emphasis on Baha'u'llah. Although Dr. Hedi Ahmadiyya attempted, in his teaching booklet, to remedy this problem by focusing on the suffering of Baha'u'llah and the Bab, I don't think it did the trick. The historical attachment to Jesus as someone who suffered like we have was simply too strong. If we believe in a literally inerrant scripture (which we call the Writings) then how do we differ from evangelical Christians who believe the same about the Bible, or ultra conservative Muslims who believe the same about the Quran? Of course, we can just say our scriptures are inerrant and theirs arent, but they say the same themselves about their scriptures. Those Baha'is are really a fundamentalist, evangelical, or reformed Protestant definition of infallibility on the Baha'i texts. Mark A. Foster * http://markfoster.net Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Book of Daniel fulfilled
In a message dated 12/10/2004 11:27:33 AM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: There is but one power which heals -- that is God. The state or condition through which the healing takes place is the confidence of the heart. By some this state is reached through pills, powders, and physicians. By others through hygiene, fasting, and prayer. By others through direct perception." (Abdu'l-Baha, Abdu'l-Baha in London, p. 95)Would "modern science" agree with this assertion? You will not find consensus in science on the topic. You will find, however, a wealth of serious scientific studies that suggest just that. Regards, Scott __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Not Exhausted
In a message dated 12/10/04 8:31:16 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Know assuredly that just as thou firmly believest that the Word of God, exalted be His glory, endureth for ever, thou must, likewise, believe with undoubting faith that its meaning can never be exhausted. Bahá'u'lláh, Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá'u'lláh, p. 175 Does this apply to the Quran as well? For those of you who don't know Gilberto, he is a Muslim who I invited onto this list. In answer to your question, Gilberto, yes, I think the meanings of any true scripture cannot be exhausted. But I don't think any scripture, including Baha'i scripture, is exhaustive. That's why we have progressive revelation. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Can the Baha'i Faith be a Big Tent or not?
Hi, Richard, At 12:38 PM 12/10/2004, you wrote: I read the entire above selection to a Baha'i friend who gives workshops and lectures regarding African-Americans and Blacks. She has told me that everything you have written above is right on the money and that your conversation on this subject should be encouraged I hope that you are hereby encouraged. Thanks. I have actually discussed these the ideas I raised in that posting with members of the House of Justice, with members of the American NSA, and at district conventions (back when that term was used). Perhaps they didn't agree with me, or it never came up in consultations. Mark A. Foster * http://markfoster.net Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: No Personal Opinions in Ruhi
In a message dated 12/10/2004 9:15:56 AM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: OK, great. So develop something you think will. Surely you don't think the House of Justice would object to that do you? If they do, then I for one know this isn't the Baha'i Faith it used to be. But I'd have a hard time believing they'd get in the way. I doubt the House would object to any degree with developing new material. It is not the House that is pushing Ruhi. It is the Regional Teaching Institutes who will brook no variance. They say we HAVE Ruhi, so we should USE Ruhi and not waste time developing other material. Even the Fundamental Verities material has been totally eclipsed and we HAVE that material. I have done Books 1, 2, 4 and 7. One was okay, because the group functioned well. I have seen groups that do not function well. Book 2 made me uncomfortable because as much as it emphasized the Text it emphasized the opinion of the editors. Book 4 was basic, but very useful for most believers who have not made much study of the history of the Faith. Book 7 was interesting because in many ways it seemed to open up the system for a lot more flexibility than Book 1 would suggest. Unfortunately that spirit of flexibility does not seem to make it very far out of the book seven circle. I rarely see it practiced. Regards, Scott __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: To Brent: one point
In a message dated 12/9/2004 10:42:17 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: There is a well-known book in English entitled *The True Believer* which describes the psychological make-up of those who feel compelled to lose their individuality in mass movements. In this case, I meant a 'true believer' in Ruhi, not the Faith. I had the great pleasure of meeting Eric Hoffer - must have been in 1966 - when I was a sophomore at the University of Texas at El Paso. He was there for a presentation to the public and a graduate seminar that I was allowed to sit in on. A most impressive man. Regards, Scott __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Can the Baha'i Faith be a Big Tent or not?
But in practice, I believe we project an image of being another literal, inerrant religion like evangelical Christianity or ultra-conservative Islam. Dear Ron, I know you have this impression at present, but I think if you did a survey of the general population who have some familiarity with Baha'i, this would not be the terms in which they would describe us. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Not Exhausted
Gilberto: So in which directions can the meanings of the book be exhausted, and in which can't it? Dear Gilberto, What I'm suggesting is that there are endless depths to any true Word of God. But that doesn't mean that any particular Book can be expected to answer every question that will ever be asked. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Not Exhausted
On Fri, 10 Dec 2004 16:12:17 -0600, Susan Maneck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gilberto: So in which directions can the meanings of the book be exhausted, and in which can't it? Dear Gilberto, What I'm suggesting is that there are endless depths to any true Word of God. But that doesn't mean that any particular Book can be expected to answer every question that will ever be asked. Sure. I have a Christian friend with whom I often get into long religious discussions. And one time he tried to argue that Christianity is better and more complete than Islam essentially because the Bible is a bigger book than the Quran. And he would go on and on about how the Bible has everything you need. At that point I would ask him whether his mom's phone number is also in the Bible. Yes there are going to be specific pieces of information which are not contained in whatever book but at the same time, the Quran says of itself [6:38] We have not neglected anything in the Book, And I would say that the basic essentials are there, and the rest is just detail. Peace Gilberto My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: No Personal Opinions in Ruhi
I doubt the House would object to any degree with developing new material. It is not the House that is pushing Ruhi. It is the Regional Teaching Institutes who will brook no variance. They say we HAVE Ruhi, so we should USE Ruhi and not waste time developing other material.[Susan Maneck] Dear Scott, I think it is more than that. As far as I can tell the ITC is behind the big Ruhi push. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Book of Daniel fulfilled
Ronald Stephens: But the theory of the ether was disproven by a specific scientific experiment, the Michelson-Morley experiment. It is virtually impossible that this could be overturned. Firouz: Just a few months ago I read in some American Science Journal that the theory of ether could be proven. I try to get the source of this news and share it with you. regards, Firouz __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Not Exhausted
On Fri, 10 Dec 2004 17:01:07 -0600, Susan Maneck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [6:38] We have not neglected anything in the Book, Gilberto: And I would say that the basic essentials are there [the Quran], and the rest is just detail. Susan: What is 'essential' in one age may not have been so essential previously. There are a lot of details in the Qur'an I don't consider essential at all, but it seems to be silent on other issues which are extremely important to me, like the eguality of women and men. Gilberto: Yes, we've had this discussion before, several times it seems, in soc.religion.bahai. (Is this what Bahais mean by the Return... lol) And at some point, you weren't just saying the Quran is silent about the equality but that it is positively inconsistent with it. I think there is a very thin tight-rope which I don't believe can be walked skillfully, at least not using the approaches I've seen. In order to order to say the Bahai faith represents progress, it means you want to have it compare favorably to Islam and the Quran and it is difficult-to-impossible to do that without being critical of statements in the Quran, which you say also come from God. I would say that the Quran can certainly be read faithfully in ways which oppose sexist oppression and protect the interests and concerns of women. And so in that sense a new religion isn't really necessary. I don't see how you could depart from that position very far without accusing God of being a sexist pig. Peace Gilberto My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Not Exhausted
And at some point, you weren't just saying the Quran is silent about the equality but that it is positively inconsistent with it. Dear Gilberto, I think the details of the Qur'an are inconsistent with the social equality of women as we presently understand it. it means you want to have it compare favorably to Islam and the Quran and it is difficult-to-impossible to do that without being critical of statements in the Quran, which you say also come from God. Recognizing a scripture's limitations is not necessarily a criticism of the scripture itself, though it might well be a criticism of its application. The Qur'an did what it could to improve the position of women at the time it was written. Full eguality was neither possible nor even desirable then. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Ruhi, Prolonged Discussions
In a message dated 12/10/2004 11:22:04 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The problem is that they appear to make an exception with their own comments. Which is precisely what has always perturbed me with reading Ruhi method material. Regards, Scott __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Ruhi, Prolonged Discussions
In a message dated 12/10/2004 11:45:05 P.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I think that many are willing to take what the editors say at face value. Well, that certainly happens, and at times tutors encourage it. When one participant noted that no source was given to support the assertion that the Writings said something or other, the tutor insisted it must be right because the House of Justice had approved of these materials. Similarly, when I suggested to a Board Member that Ruhi be revised by removing pilgrim's notes and not asking close-ended questions that expected the reader to parrot back editorial opinions (as opposed to scriptural texts) I was told that the World Centre found the material fine as it was and that therefore we shouldn't mess with it. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
The Iqan and Reason
Dear Ron: Its my understanding that Bahaullah demonstrates a hundred times in the course of the Iqan that a literal approach to Scripture is a superficial one. But I see that as entirely different from what you have said here about the Book. You seem to me to be conflating a non-literal approach, with a non-infallible approach that I personally dont see support for in that Book. For example you say: If we believe in a literally inerrant scripture (which we call the Writings) then how do we differ from evangelical Christians who believe the same about the Bible, or ultra conservative Muslims who believe the same about the Quran? I want to address your point, but not in any way bring on board any baggage from Biblical or Quranic approaches used by others. I want to stick with the approach Bahaullah uses. I may be missing your point, but it appears that your reading of that Book is that Bahaullah does not say in it that Scripture is infallible. Yet He twice (pp. 169 and 190) refers to the Quran as His unerring Book and on page 201 He states of the Quran its decrees are indisputable, and its promise unfailing, and finally, its guidance can never err. If your point is what we human beings *do* with that unerring Book no disagreement here. But it seems to me that part of your issue is with the claim that the Book is itself infallible; is that correct, or have I misunderstood you? You say: in the Book of Certitude and He shows that we must use logic and reason. There are surely places in the Book where He points out the illogic of some commonly-held views of religion; but my personal view of the Iqan is that He makes a far stronger appeal to faith in the Manifestation, and faith in His Words, over human reason. For example, on page 187 Bahaullah quotes this verse from Rumi: All human attainment moveth upon a lame ass, whilst Truth, riding upon the wind, darteth across space. This was quoted in the context of those who tried to use the sciences of the day to grasp the meaning of the miraj of the Prophet Muhammad. There is also a lengthy pronouncement on how knowledge that runs counter to Revelation is harmful to mans advancement. On page 188 He refers to knowledge that keeps people at a distance from the Manifestations as the densest of all veils. He speaks of two kinds of knowledge - - that which is illuminated by Revelation, and that which is not, which He calls satanic knowledge. Please do not for one minute think Im saying that Bahaullah doesnt encourage us in His Writings to use our reason; of course He does. I just dont see that as the major theme in that particular Book, and I believe you have said that you feel that it is. Maybe it is, and I have not paid close enough attention. You also write: I have bought into the vision of a glorious Prophet Who asks that we accept His Revelation *because* it is in accord with reason, logic and science, as well as the eternal spiritual principles espoused by all the previous true Prophets; only to later discover that many if not most of His adherents don't buy into His fundamental acknowledgement of science, reason and logic at all. I think it is a fair statement to say that there are such statements in Bahaullahs Writings; and even stronger ones in the Masters Writings. I personally think that the majority of the Bahais believe this. But even if your statement is 100% accurate, that most of the friends dont see this, my response would be, So what? That is, I try to live according to what Bahaullah wants. If I can make Him happy, I really dont care much whether I am in accord with the friends. If I hold a view about the Faith, because I think its rooted in the Writings, I figure that whether a thousand people disagree with me today, tomorrow others will hold the same view. The Truth will out. And likewise, I trust that my own illusions will, with the passage of time and Gods good grace, pass away. My point being: I am not very concerned about the views of the friends, it just isnt a part of my spiritual universe. I listen, I hope to learn; but if a thousand people stand up at Convention and say something, that does not affect my certitude in the Faith, one bit. I am not sure why you feel the views of the Bahais are all that important. All of us come into the Faith with a bushel basket of nonsense in our heads of one kind or another; and gradually, through the prayers and the Writings, through the cleansing force of the river of the water of life that flows through us, we get closer to truth. I suggest that this statement from Shoghi Effendi clarifies the point I wish to make: Surely, the believers should never be looked upon as a standard whereby to evaluate and measure the divine authority and mission of the Faith. It is to the Teachings themselves, and to the lives of the Founders of the Cause that the believers should look for their guidance and inspiration, and only by
Re: Can the Baha'i Faith be a Big Tent or not?
In a message dated 12/11/2004 12:30:05 A.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: If I am honst, I have this same issue. The sufferigof Jesus on the cross is a powerful story. Try as I might, I can not see Baha'u'llah's imprisonment for decades as equivalent. It just isnt' the same kind of powerful imagery. Dear Ron, I'm not so sure. Remember that the African slave experience is that of a lifetime of suffering, not a few hours on the cross. That is closer to Baha'u'llah's suffering. If the imagery of the cross is more powerful in Christianity it is because Christians themselves have made it such. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Can the Baha'i Faith be a Big Tent or not?
Patti, At 09:12 PM 12/10/2004, you wrote: I think that the point of it is that people might be interested in the Faith with their heads, but their hearts spirits need to be touched I won't comment on the Ruhi part. However, I agree that the above is important, and, to that extent, Hedi Ahmadiyya was on the right track. What was missing, in my view was: 1. The absence of permanent community centers in each neighborhood. 2. The fact that the teachers immediately left. Consolidation teams would only show up months or years later. Sometimes they would never show up. In my view, the mass teachers should, ideally, be homefront pioneers who themselves will be involved in the consolidation. (In fact, Ahmadiyya suggested that the same people involved in mass teaching needed to do the consolidation.) Mark A. Foster * http://markfoster.net Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Book of Daniel fulfilled
The last three paragraphs of a lecture by A. Einstein, 1920: IMO, a careful reading of `Abdu'l-Baha's comments on ether will show that He used it as a metaphor for spirit. He was a storyteller. If He were alive today, He might instead speak of bits and bytes. Mark A. Foster * http://markfoster.net Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Ruhi, Prolonged Discussions
Scott, Ruhi wrote: We believe that the simple habit of thinking about the implications of the Writings with the minimum of personal interpretation would eliminate a great share of the disagreements that afflict consultation in many communities, You replied to Ruhi: In other words the opinions of the Ruhi editors supersede the Scripture itself? The question I would ask is how does thinking about the implications of the Writings differ from personal interpretation? Mark A. Foster * http://markfoster.net Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: No Personal Opinions in Ruhi
Hi, Susan, At 10:49 PM 12/9/2004, you wrote: I guess the question is will that 'unity of thought' not then be a literalistic one? And is that really what our Writings encourage? Given my personal emphasis on orthopraxy and polydoxy over orthodoxy, that is one of my concerns, as well. IMO, unity of thought refers to keeping one's mind and heart centered on Baha'u'llah and `Abdu'l-Baha, i.e., the Covenant. It has nothing directly to do with the fundamentalist indoctrination process used by Ruhi. Mark A. Foster * http://markfoster.net Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
re: Ruhi, Ruhi Method Rigidity
Tutor: I don't think any of the ideas you have described is wrong or undesirable in principle. The problem is .that referring to them as elements of a Ruhi method introduces rigidity into a process that is otherwise simple, joyful, and sensitive to a diversity of needs. For example, you all remember that at the beginning of Book I, a technique is used whereby the participants ask simple questions of one another. The use of this technique has a clear purpose, which is to help the participants focus on Baha'i text, But once such a habit is created, why would one continue to employ a technique that can easily become mechanical. Of course, there might be occasions now and then in other units when the technique is useful, but it should certainly not be called the Ruhi method. What is more, it is not necessary to ask everyone to repeat the same question one after another, which would naturally only annoy them. Usually after one or two repetitions, the purpose of the exercise is achieved. (Ruhi, Book 7) I think this is an example of participants bringing ridigity into a more flexible process; most of the Ruhi tutors I've met have not permitted this flexibility, but have stuck with the technique that annoys after over-use. I know a person who is approaching professional people and using the Ruhi books as a basis for discussion, with success. The non-Baha'i professionals like the structure and content, and the flexible and more intuitive approach to the materials is maintaining keen interest. I remember when the instructions came from the World Centre to determine the boundaries of clusters. Everybody I knew started adding complexity to the process and got it wrong except Counsellor Huerta, who saw it clearly from the start. These quotes are very helpful, thanks Max. Brent __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: No Personal Opinions in Ruhi
Unity in diversity does not imply uniformity! Why is there so much objection to a methodical system being introduced? Harmony of thought also does not negate the independent search for truth. The study circle brings together a variety of people with a variety of opinions in a harmonious, welcoming atmosphere of learning (IMO). Of course there are widely differing experiences but isn't this true of life in general? The objections I see seem to be actuated by prejudice and an unwillingness to participate. - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Baha'i Studies [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, December 10, 2004 1:53 PM Subject: Re: No Personal Opinions in Ruhi In a message dated 12/10/2004 7:04:01 A.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: unity of thought refers to keeping one's mind and heart centered on Baha'u'llah and `Abdu'l-Baha, i.e., the Covenant. It has nothing directly to do with the fundamentalist indoctrination process used by Ruhi. Dear Mark, This is how the term is used by Abdu'l-Baha in the Seven Candles of Unity: The second candle is unity of thought in world undertakings, the consummation of which will erelong be witnessed That's seems to refer more to the UN reaching a consensus than Baha'is being on the same page even about the Covenant. I just went back and looked at Baha'u'llah's Tablet of Unity. The phrase doesn't even occur there. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.809 / Virus Database: 551 - Release Date: 09/12/2004 __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Book of Daniel fulfilled
even where they contradict known laws of nature and common sense What is a known law? If you had asked people 600 years ago, they would have proven to you that the world is flat. We cannot accept things known today as scientific fact. Mathematicians, astronomers, chemical scientists continually disprove and reject the conclusions of the ancients; nothing is fixed, nothing final; everything continually changing because human reason is progressing along new roads of investigation and arriving at new conclusions every day. In the future much that is announced and accepted as true now will be rejected and disproved. And so it will continue ad infinitum. Abdu'l-Bahá, Bahá'í World Faith, p. 252 For anyone to insist that interpretation follow known scientific laws of the day is as short-sighted as Baha'is who insist on a literal interpretation of a specific very. It must always be born in mind: Know assuredly that just as thou firmly believest that the Word of God, exalted be His glory, endureth for ever, thou must, likewise, believe with undoubting faith that its meaning can never be exhausted. Bahá'u'lláh, Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá'u'lláh, p. 175 Insistence, whether on a literal interpretation or conformity with science, is our barrier. James __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: No Personal Opinions in Ruhi
From: Mark A. Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Baha'i Studies [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Baha'i Studies [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: No Personal Opinions in Ruhi Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 08:45:32 -0600 On the one hand you say: I would be interested in the demographics of long-term Ruhi participation and how it correlates with the general Baha'i populations in different areas. My guess* would is that we would see a negative correlation between participation and SES (socioeconomic status). And then you say: Prejudice refers to prejudging based on stereotypes. In my case, I intentionally kept an open mind before going to my first Ruhi meeting. Seems a tad hypocritical to me but that is just my take on this whole exchange. Forgive me for jumping in. Actually, its nice to see some life on this list! Gives me hope that the Faith might just have some life in it yet. I've been on a self-imposed year of patience with the Faith and being away from activity has given me some different perspectives. Anyway, I am a bit surprised at the consistent negativity towards Ruhi even though the House has over and over made it plain it has no intentions of forcing exclusivity to any form of deepening/teaching/studying. If you don't want to participate, fine. Who is forcing this on you? if there are people who are really taken with it and even NSA's who want to focus on it - is that affecting your own spiritual journey? Are they forcing you to participate? I'll be honest - Ruhi style learning is not my cup of tea. I took the first book and left the 2nd book (or was it the 3rd? - the one on teaching) because I was uncomfortable with it. But I can accept that there are members of our community who have gotten a lot out of it and from what I can tell there are 2nd generation study circles going on in the community which speaks to the value some here have put on the method. Granted, you (and I for that matter) may think it is overdone by some institutions and individuals but so what? Isn't the Faith big enough to overcome such mistakes? I sure hope so. If the Faith is what it means to be it better. Someone mentioned their objection to Ruhi being that it doesn't address the needs of the educated, well off westerners. OK, great. So develop something you think will. Surely you don't think the House of Justice would object to that do you? If they do, then I for one know this isn't the Baha'i Faith it used to be. But I'd have a hard time believing they'd get in the way. I mean, why is it so important to put down the efforts of obviously sincere and motivated individuals in a process that is at the worst a way of learning that doesn't fit your own particular style of learning and at the best, has been a positive influence in some communities around the world? Move on and do something you feel would be constructive. Surely the tent is big enough for that? _ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: No Personal Opinions in Ruhi
Hi, Dick, At 09:14 AM 12/10/2004, you wrote: On the one hand you say: I would be interested in the demographics of long-term Ruhi participation and how it correlates with the general Baha'i populations in different areas. My guess* would is that we would see a negative correlation between participation and SES (socioeconomic status). And then you say: Prejudice refers to prejudging based on stereotypes. In my case, I intentionally kept an open mind before going to my first Ruhi meeting. Seems a tad hypocritical to me but that is just my take on this whole exchange. I don't believe so. If so, social scientists exercise hypocrisy whenever they formulate hypotheses. On the one hand, you attempt to bracket' any personally held stereotypes (emotional generalizations). On the other, you make a prediction (hypothesis) about about possible relationships between variables. The two are not inconsistent. Anyway, I am a bit surprised at the consistent negativity towards Ruhi even though the House has over and over made it plain it has no intentions of forcing exclusivity to any form of deepening/teaching/studying. If you don't want to participate, fine. What if an NSA makes homefront pioneering goals contingent on conducting Ruhi classes? That sounds pretty exclusive to me. Who is forcing this on you? if there are people who are really taken with it and even NSA's who want to focus on it - is that affecting your own spiritual journey? Are they forcing you to participate? There are different types of pressure. Isn't the Faith big enough to overcome such mistakes? I sure hope so. If the Faith is what it means to be it better. I don't think anyone has suggested otherwise. Someone mentioned their objection to Ruhi being that it doesn't address the needs of the educated, well off westerners. OK, great. So develop something you think will. Surely you don't think the House of Justice would object to that do you? If they do, then I for one know this isn't the Baha'i Faith it used to be. But I'd have a hard time believing they'd get in the way. Eventually, I will get around to doing so. I had promised to start a list on this subject, but other things have taken my time. However, at least in the short term, Ruhi will be the only game in town (at least in the U.S.). I mean, why is it so important to put down the efforts of obviously sincere and motivated individuals in a process that is at the worst a way of learning that doesn't fit your own particular style of learning and at the best, has been a positive influence in some communities around the world? I can't speak to the rest of the world, but I do not see much in the way of positive influence, at least as I would define it, in the U.S. Mark A. Foster * http://markfoster.net Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Book of Daniel fulfilled
Ron wrote: Do you see my point? Your point is understood. This non-scientific mind, however, would assert that nothing is final. There is but one power which heals -- that is God. The state or condition through which the healing takes place is the confidence of the heart. By some this state is reached through pills, powders, and physicians. By others through hygiene, fasting, and prayer. By others through direct perception. (Abdu'l-Baha, Abdu'l-Baha in London, p. 95) Would modern science agree with this assertion? James __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Unity of Thought
In a message dated 12/10/04 6:14:45 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: It is now that unity of thought and action is most needed. It is now, when the Cause is entering a new phase of development, when its Administration is being gradually consolidated amid the welter and chaos of a tottering civilization, that the friends should present a united front to those forces of internal dissension, which, if not completely wiped out, will bring our work to inevitable destruction." Thanks for this other citation, Mark. It seems the term is also used to refer to our ability to arrive at consultative decision and to act on them with unanimity. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Can the Baha'i Faith be a Big Tent or not?
In a message dated 12/10/2004 11:27:37 AM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: And, most importantly, doesnt Bahaullah caution against precisely such a literal inerrant approach in His Book of Certitude? This major theme of the Book of Certitude seems to be something that never gets discussed and never is taken seriously. I think all the sacred texts can be taken as inerrant in context. It is when we clip verses and hold them up as "union placards" that we run into trouble. We are in effect taking the verse out of context. Study of the word shows that interpretation of the word must be inclusive of other interpretations. When we cannot find a way to include an interpretation into our understanding of the word then it is our understanding that is deficient, not the word itself. This is why (in my understanding) the sacred text demands that we bring our scientific and spiritual understandings of creation into a synchronized state, because those "interpretations" of creation must be inclusive. Literalism is the great foe of such an understanding. It is a set of chains and shackles which an individual dons voluntarily and then extolls to others. For myself, no thank you, I am not interested. It is firmly set in my personal view of reality that my misunderstandings are inerrant, the word will not be if I can change my understanding. Regards, Scott __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Can the Baha'i Faith be a Big Tent or not?
Hi, Ron, At 11:40 AM 12/10/2004, you wrote: It is my impression that, in the Book of Certitude, Baha'u'llah makes a case that the over-emphasis on literalism by proponents of relgion is a leading cause for the decline of religious faith and the declining respect for religion. Am I correct in my impression? IMHO, literalism can, from one standpoint, be defined as an attachment to names, i.e., regarding them (including our Sacred Texts) as being representations, or manifestations, or reality. I believe that Baha'u'lah would make the same criticism today of Baha'i attitudes, that He made when He wrote the Book of Certitude. I think that is a very good point. I suspect He would make a similar criticism. Mark A. Foster * http://markfoster.net Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Ruhi, Prolonged Discussions
That is not true! One cannot fail to meditate on the writings after going through the sequence. - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Baha'i Studies [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, December 10, 2004 5:41 PM Subject: Re: Ruhi, Prolonged Discussions In a message dated 12/10/2004 6:55:37 AM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The question I would ask is how does thinking about the implications of the Writings differ from personal interpretation? Seems to be the same question I asked myself, and the conclusion I drew was that the Ruhi editors opinion (personal interpretation) is supposed to supersede what the Writings say about reading the revelations and meditating upon them. Reading the text and meditating on the text is what the writings TELL us to do. Yet the Ruhi editors seem to think otherwise. Regards, Scott __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.809 / Virus Database: 551 - Release Date: 09/12/2004 __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Book of Daniel fulfilled
In a message dated 12/10/04 9:27:32 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: There is but one power which heals -- that is God. The state or condition through which the healing takes place is the confidence of the heart. By some this state is reached through pills, powders, and physicians. By others through hygiene, fasting, and prayer. By others through direct perception." (Abdu'l-Baha, Abdu'l-Baha in London, p. 95) Would "modern science" agree with this assertion? Dear James, I modern historian might not either. My recollection is that Abdu'l-Baha in London is not a canonical text. We do not have the original transcripts for any of these talks and we can't really ascertain what Abdu'l-Baha actually said. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Book of Daniel fulfilled
James Mock wrote: There is but one power which heals -- that is God. The state or condition through which the healing takes place is the confidence of the heart. By some this state is reached through pills, powders, and physicians. By others through hygiene, fasting, and prayer. By others through direct perception. (Abdu'l-Baha, Abdu'l-Baha in London, p. 95) Would modern science agree with this assertion? James If I put on my scientist hat, I would say that science has nothing to say about the quote above, because the quote is talking about spiritual matters, not scientific ones. As a scientist, one can certainly not state that the mind has no influence on the body, there is plenty of scientific evidence showing the powerful influence the mind has on the body. As to God, though, I do not think science can comment one way or the other. Of course, there are doctrinaire 'scientists' who would reject any mention of 'God' out of hand. But they do not speak for science, only for themselves. I would call such people fundamentalists in the religion of science. But we should avoid being like them, and accept that science is a very important path to truth, and religious writings are not science. There simply is no proof when it comes to ultimate questions like God and religion and the ultimate purpose of life and the universe. We each must investigate for ourselves. But how do we decide whether to accept a certain Prophet's vision? I think that Baha'u'llah addresses this question in the Book of Certitude and He shows that we must use logic and reason. If a Prophet says the universe was creating by constipated ducks, I personally would not buy into that Prophet's religion. If a Prophet says that science is a bunch of nonsense and that we should abandon the scientific method, I wouldn't buy into that Prophet's vision either. The dilemmna I face is this. I have bought into the vision of a glorious Prophet Who asks that we accept His Revelation *because* it is in accord with reason, logic and science, as well as the eternal spiritual principles espoused by all the previous true Prophets; only to later discover that many if not most of His adherents don't buy into His fundamental acknowledgement of science, reason and logic at all, and may even consider such a belief in reason and science to be bordering on heresy. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Not Exhausted
On Fri, 10 Dec 2004 13:21:42 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 12/10/04 8:31:16 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Know assuredly that just as thou firmly believest that the Word of God, exalted be His glory, endureth for ever, thou must, likewise, believe with undoubting faith that its meaning can never be exhausted. Bahá'u'lláh, Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá'u'lláh, p. 175 Does this apply to the Quran as well? Susan: In answer to your question, Gilberto, yes, I think the meanings of any true scripture cannot be exhausted. But I don't think any scripture, including Baha'i scripture, is exhaustive. That's why we have progressive revelation. Gilberto: So in which directions can the meanings of the book be exhausted, and in which can't it? Peace Gilberto My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Not Exhausted
Hello Gilberto, I followed some of your discussions with Susan on another list, and I always thought that your comments and were very logical and well thought out. Ron Stephens __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Ruhi, Prolonged Discussions
In a message dated 12/10/2004 11:38:05 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Dear Scott, It may be tempting to believe this, but I'm sure it is not what the editors think they are doing. I am sure it isn't what they think they are saying, but I think that is also symptomatic of elevating one's own interpretation to a level higher than it should have. I read their words, and I see this meaning to it. I think that many are willing to take what the editors say at face value. I do not think it is sinister, but I think it is a significant flaw. Regards, Scott __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
