Re: To Brent: one point

2004-12-10 Thread Firouz Anaraki




Susan,

It's the same here in Thailand and most of South East Asian countries. 
There has been much emphasis on Ruhi classes and hence the teaching and 
enrollment has stopped. The communities have been encouraged to finish up to 
Ruhi book 7 and many have done so but after that they have been trying to find 
more and more recruits to start new Ruhi book 1 book 2, etc. I haven't seen any 
enrollment this year and no teaching going on here.

regards,
Firouz


  Well, there's the rub Hasan. Here in the US our enrollment rates have 
  been steadily decreasing as Ruhi is being implemented. 
  
  warmest, Susan 
  
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RE: To Brent: one point

2004-12-10 Thread Mark A. Foster
Susan,

At 12:42 AM 12/10/2004, you wrote:
Mind you, I said they were discouraged from having other deepening *classes* 
not from deepening independently.

First the two-way TV sets have to be installed in our homes. Then they can 
monitor our individual deepening practices, too. 

Mark A. Foster * http://markfoster.net
Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger 
-- Abbie Hoffman 


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Re: No Personal Opinions in Ruhi

2004-12-10 Thread Smaneck



In a message dated 12/10/2004 7:04:01 A.M. Central Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
unity of 
  thought refers to keeping one's mind and heart centered on Baha'u'llah and 
  `Abdu'l-Baha, i.e., the Covenant. It has nothing directly to do with the 
  fundamentalist indoctrination process used by Ruhi.

Dear Mark, 

This is how the term is used by Abdu'l-Baha in the Seven Candles of Unity: 

"The second candle is unity of thought in world undertakings, the 
consummation of which will erelong be witnessed"

That's seems to refer more to the UN reaching a consensus than Baha'is 
being "on the same page" even about the Covenant. 

I just went back and looked at Baha'u'llah's Tablet of Unity. The phrase 
doesn't even occur there. 

warmest, Susan 







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Re: No Personal Opinions in Ruhi

2004-12-10 Thread Mark A. Foster
Michael,

At 08:36 AM 12/10/2004, you wrote:
Unity in diversity does not imply uniformity! Why is there so much objection 
to a methodical system being introduced?

The objections I have seen are not to a methodical system being introduced. 
They are to this particular methodical system being introduced.

The study circle brings together a variety of people with a variety of 
opinions in a harmonious, welcoming atmosphere of learning (IMO).

I would be interested in the demographics of long-term Ruhi participation and 
how it correlates with the general Baha'i populations in different areas. My 
guess* would is that we would see a negative correlation between participation 
and SES (socioeconomic status).

The objections I see seem to be actuated by prejudice and an unwillingness to 
participate.

That is not fair, Michael. All, or most, of the people here with degrees of 
unfavorable views of Ruhi have attended Ruhi meetings. 

Prejudice refers to prejudging based on stereotypes. In my case, I 
intentionally kept an open mind before going to my first Ruhi meeting.

Mark A. Foster * http://markfoster.net
Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger 
-- Abbie Hoffman 


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Re: Ether and Evolution and Infallibility

2004-12-10 Thread Ronald Stephens
 Brent, thank you for a very thoughtful reply. It certainly helps me to 
understand how you think about these kinds of issues and why you believe as you 
do. I think that there probably are many Baha's who have similar views as 
yours. Your thoughtful analysis and sensitive approach are appreciated. A few 
comments to your post follow:


Ron wrote: 

I brought up two examples of areas where a strictly literal view of the 
infallibility of the Writings (in this case the Writings of Abdul Baha) leads 
some Baha'is to see the necessity to dis-believe in the science of evolution 
and quantum physics. Do you believe in the need to come up with a Baha'i 
parallel evolution and an alternative Baha'i quantum physics? I ask this 
because I am genuinely curious. I have seen public public statements by high 
level Baha'i individuals in the past, about their apparent requirement that 
good Baha'is have a strictly literal understanding of infallibility.  I find 
this problematic but I would like your honest opinion on the two specific 
instances I mention above. 

Brent responded (excerpts):

Big subject.  I think I'll start with the broad perspective, then come down to 
the specifics…
 
The Master has linked light and heat and magnetism as waves of the ether.  I 
think it was Steve Friberg, who is a physicist, who said that in his view, the 
Master's descriptions fit very well into modern quantum physics; are merely a 
difference of terminology. 

My own non-scientific view includes this:  If you start with the assumption 
that the amplitude and frequency of waves tells you something about the 
substance through which they are passing; then light passing through empty 
space gives evidence that it is passing through a more dense substance than 
anything else in the universe…

Ron replies: Yes, I understand your point of view, and I can certainly not 
disprove it. But the theory of the “ether” was disproven by a specific 
scientific experiment, the Michelson-Morley experiment. It is virtually 
impossible that this could be overturned. As an analogy, we will certainly come 
up with better understandings of gravity in the future, but we will not ever 
find that objects in the earth’s gravitational field fall *upwards* rather than 
downwards.

Brent wrote: And even if a Counsellor stood up and criticized people who did 
not believe in ether, I would probably say, So what?  I do not over-value the 
views of eminent Baha'is. 
 
But I don't see this as a matter of compulsion. …

Ron replies: that is a key point to me, the importance of lack of compulsion on 
theological beliefs. But there are various kinds of compulsion. When I heard a 
most prominent Baha’I describe anyone who questions a literally inerrant 
understanding of infallibility as being an attacker of the faith, it curdled my 
blood. He made specific reference to a position of belief that infallibility is 
related to “sinlessness”. This is a position I consider reasonable that I 
learned from this list (Dr. Maneck), and I certainly do not consider myself as 
an attacker of the faith. That expression struck me as particularly 
mean-spirited. 


Ron

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RE: Book of Daniel fulfilled

2004-12-10 Thread Ronald Stephens
Hello James adn thank you for your comments, 
James Mock wrote:

What is a known law?  If you had asked people 600 years ago, they would 
have proven to you that the world is flat.

We cannot accept things known today as scientific fact.

 . James, what you say is certainly ture in some instances. But the theory of 
the “ether” was disproven by a specific scientific experiment, the 
Michelson-Morley experiment. It is virtually impossible that this could be 
overturned. As an analogy, we will certainly come up with better understandings 
of gravity in the future, but we will not ever find that objects in the earth’s 
gravitational field fall *upwards* rather than downwards.   

So, if a Prophet writes about objects falling upwards due to the force fo 
gravity, thgen I think it is fair to say that He is speaking symbolically and 
not literally. Baha'u'llah, I believe, made precisely this point when He 
ridiculed anyone who believed that Christ rose physcially into the clouds and 
into the heavens. Do you see my point?   

Ron





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oops!

2004-12-10 Thread James Mock
A previous message stated:
literal interpretation of a specific very
...that was supposed to be speicific verse

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Re: To Brent: one point

2004-12-10 Thread James Mock
It's the same here in Thailand and most of South East Asian countries. 
There
has been much emphasis on Ruhi classes and hence the teaching and enrollment 
has
stopped.

I recently read a recent report noting one cluster in Cambodia that has 
grown from 500 Baha'is to over 2000, in a relatively short period of 
time.and the process appears to be spreading.


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Can the Baha'i Faith be a Big Tent or not?

2004-12-10 Thread Ronald Stephens
 While encouraging those Baha’is who are upset about the Ruhi Method to get 
over it and move on, Dick Detweiler wrote :

 “Surely the tent is big enough for that?”

I agree with him and I am not too concerned about the Ruhi methods. I have 
attended Ruhi classes and they don’t bother me, although I fail to see how much 
good will come out of them either. To me, Ruhi is irrelevant to the big 
picture, but the question of whether or not the Baha’I Faith can be a big tent 
is relevant. 

I believe than the Faith is shirking in numbers and in general failing to 
excite enthusiasm because we are projecting ourselves as a very small tent. I 
believe that there could be a big demand for a Faith that allows people to 
believe in religion but also in science and reason. I also believe that the 
Writings of the Faith offer us the option to be just that sort of community. 

But in practice, I believe we project an image of being another literal, 
inerrant religion like evangelical Christianity or ultra-conservative Islam. I 
don’t think there is a market for such a new religion because there are already 
an excess of such religions, and people can readily see the problems they bring 
about. 

If we believe in a literally inerrant scripture (which we call the Writings) 
then how do we differ from evangelical Christians who believe the same about 
the Bible, or ultra conservative Muslims who believe the same about the Quran? 
Of course, we can just say our scriptures are inerrant and theirs aren’t, but 
they say the same themselves about their scriptures.

And, most importantly, doesn’t Baha’u’llah caution against precisely such a 
literal inerrant approach in His Book of Certitude? This major theme of the 
Book of Certitude seems to be something that never gets discussed and never is 
taken seriously. 

It’s hard to even discuss this topic, but if we ignore it because of the pain 
and sensitivity involved, then we will continue to be seen as being far to the 
right of evangelical Christianity, a sort of return-to-Medieval attitudes 
religion, rather than a viable religion for the future.

Ron




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Re: Can the Baha'i Faith be a Big Tent or not?

2004-12-10 Thread Ronald Stephens
 Oh, one other point I wanted to make but I forgot.

It is my impression that, in the Book of Certitude, Baha'u'llah makes a case 
that the over-emphasis on literalism by proponents of relgion is a leading 
cause for the decline of religious faith and the declining respect for 
religion. Am I correct in my impression?

I believe that Baha'u'lah would make the same criticism today of Baha'i 
attitudes, that He made when He wrote the Book of Certitude.


On Friday, December 10, 2004, at 09:27AM, Ronald Stephens [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:

 While encouraging those Baha’is who are upset about the Ruhi Method to get 
 over it and move on, Dick Detweiler wrote :

 “Surely the tent is big enough for that?”

I agree with him and I am not too concerned about the Ruhi methods. I have 
attended Ruhi classes and they don’t bother me, although I fail to see how 
much good will come out of them either. To me, Ruhi is irrelevant to the big 
picture, but the question of whether or not the Baha’I Faith can be a big tent 
is relevant. 

I believe than the Faith is shirking in numbers and in general failing to 
excite enthusiasm because we are projecting ourselves as a very small tent. I 
believe that there could be a big demand for a Faith that allows people to 
believe in religion but also in science and reason. I also believe that the 
Writings of the Faith offer us the option to be just that sort of community. 

But in practice, I believe we project an image of being another literal, 
inerrant religion like evangelical Christianity or ultra-conservative Islam. I 
don’t think there is a market for such a new religion because there are 
already an excess of such religions, and people can readily see the problems 
they bring about. 

If we believe in a literally inerrant scripture (which we call the Writings) 
then how do we differ from evangelical Christians who believe the same about 
the Bible, or ultra conservative Muslims who believe the same about the Quran? 
Of course, we can just say our scriptures are inerrant and theirs aren’t, but 
they say the same themselves about their scriptures.

And, most importantly, doesn’t Baha’u’llah caution against precisely such a 
literal inerrant approach in His Book of Certitude? This major theme of the 
Book of Certitude seems to be something that never gets discussed and never is 
taken seriously. 

It’s hard to even discuss this topic, but if we ignore it because of the pain 
and sensitivity involved, then we will continue to be seen as being far to the 
right of evangelical Christianity, a sort of return-to-Medieval attitudes 
religion, rather than a viable religion for the future.

Ron


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Re: Ruhi, Prolonged Discussions

2004-12-10 Thread Popeyesays




In a message dated 12/10/2004 6:55:37 AM Central Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
The question 
  I would ask is how does "thinking about the implications of the Writings" 
  differ from "personal interpretation"?

Seems to be the same question I asked myself, and the conclusion I drew was 
that the Ruhi editors opinion (personal interpretation) is supposed to supersede 
what the Writings say about reading the revelations and meditating upon them. 
Reading the text and meditating on the text is what the writings TELL us to do. 
Yet the Ruhi editors seem to think otherwise.

Regards,

Scott
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Re: No Personal Opinions in Ruhi

2004-12-10 Thread Dick Detweiler
I said:
Seems a tad hypocritical to me but that is just my take on this whole 
exchange.

I just want to say that after I posted I noted that here is someone who has 
taken a year long vacation from just about anything Baha'i telling others to 
get off their fanny and do something.

Dick Am I the pot or the kettle? D.
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Re: Can the Baha'i Faith be a Big Tent or not?

2004-12-10 Thread Mark A. Foster
Ron,

At 11:27 AM 12/10/2004, you wrote:
I don’t think there is a market for such a new religion because there are 
already an excess of such religions, and people can readily see the problems 
they bring about.

I am just guessing, but ...

The Baha'i Faith is a religion which *appears* to be to the left on political, 
economic, and social issues and which *appears* (perhaps without a closer 
inspection) to be to the right on questions of morality. To many European 
Americans, and in the framework of conventional social norms and definitions of 
categories, the Baha'i Faith may appear inconsistent.

However, perhaps this explains, in part, why, in South Carolina, a couple of 
predominantly African American evangelical churches became Baha'i centers 
(along with the preachers and their congregations), but why nothing similar has 
ever, to my knowledge, happened with predominantly European American churches. 
In other words, it is fairly common for African American, but not European 
American, evangelicals to be liberal, or radical, on social issues but 
conservative on theological ones.

Why, officially or not, did most of those African American Baha'is in the deep 
South leave the Faith? I think that there are at least two reasons:

1. There was nothing to replace the neighborhood Black church which, for many 
people (especially those in rural areas), functions as a kind of community 
center.

2. The emphasis on Jesus was replaced by an emphasis on Baha'u'llah. Although 
Dr. Hedi Ahmadiyya attempted, in his teaching booklet, to remedy this problem 
by focusing on the suffering of Baha'u'llah and the Bab, I don't think it did 
the trick. The historical attachment to Jesus as someone who suffered like we 
have was simply too strong.

If we believe in a literally inerrant scripture (which we call the Writings) 
then how do we differ from evangelical Christians who believe the same about 
the Bible, or ultra conservative Muslims who believe the same about the 
Quran? Of course, we can just say our scriptures are inerrant and theirs 
aren’t, but they say the same themselves about their scriptures.

Those Baha'is are really a fundamentalist, evangelical, or reformed Protestant 
definition of infallibility on the Baha'i texts.

Mark A. Foster * http://markfoster.net
Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger 
-- Abbie Hoffman 


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Re: Book of Daniel fulfilled

2004-12-10 Thread Popeyesays




In a message dated 12/10/2004 11:27:33 AM Central Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
There is but 
  one power which heals -- that is God. The state or condition through which 
  the healing takes place is the confidence of the heart. By some this state 
  is reached through pills, powders, and physicians. By others through 
  hygiene, fasting, and prayer. By others through direct 
  perception."  (Abdu'l-Baha, Abdu'l-Baha in London, p. 
  95)Would "modern science" agree with this 
assertion?

You will not find consensus in science on the topic. You will find, 
however, a wealth of serious scientific studies that suggest just that.

Regards,

Scott
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Re: Not Exhausted

2004-12-10 Thread Smaneck
In a message dated 12/10/04 8:31:16 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:




 Know assuredly that just as thou firmly believest that the Word of God,
 exalted be His glory, endureth for ever, thou must, likewise, believe with
 undoubting faith that its meaning can never be exhausted.
 
 Bahá'u'lláh, Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá'u'lláh, p. 175

Does this apply to the Quran as well?


For those of you who don't know Gilberto, he is a Muslim who I invited onto this list. 
 
In answer to your question, Gilberto, yes, I think the meanings of any true scripture cannot be exhausted. But I don't think any scripture, including Baha'i scripture, is exhaustive. That's why we have progressive revelation. 

warmest, Susan 
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Re: Can the Baha'i Faith be a Big Tent or not?

2004-12-10 Thread Mark A. Foster
Hi, Richard,

At 12:38 PM 12/10/2004, you wrote:
I read the entire above selection to a Baha'i friend who gives workshops and 
lectures regarding African-Americans and Blacks.  She has told me that 
everything you have written above is right on the money and that your 
conversation on this subject should be encouraged
I hope that you are hereby encouraged.

Thanks. I have actually discussed these the ideas I raised in that posting with 
members of the House of Justice, with members of the American NSA, and at 
district conventions (back when that term was used). Perhaps they didn't agree 
with me, or it never came up in consultations.

Mark A. Foster * http://markfoster.net
Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger 
-- Abbie Hoffman 


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Re: No Personal Opinions in Ruhi

2004-12-10 Thread Popeyesays




In a message dated 12/10/2004 9:15:56 AM Central Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
OK, 
  great. So develop something you think will. Surely you don't 
  think the House of Justice would object to that do you? If they do, 
  then I for one know this isn't the Baha'i Faith it used to be. But 
  I'd have a hard time believing they'd get in the 
way.

I doubt the House would object to any degree with developing new material. 
It is not the House that is pushing Ruhi. It is the Regional Teaching Institutes 
who will brook no variance. They say we HAVE Ruhi, so we should USE Ruhi and not 
waste time developing other material.

Even the Fundamental Verities material has been totally eclipsed and we 
HAVE that material.

I have done Books 1, 2, 4 and 7. One was okay, because the group functioned 
well. I have seen groups that do not function well. Book 2 made me uncomfortable 
because as much as it emphasized the Text it emphasized the opinion of the 
editors. Book 4 was basic, but very useful for most believers who have not made 
much study of the history of the Faith. Book 7 was interesting because in many 
ways it seemed to open up the system for a lot more flexibility than Book 1 
would suggest. Unfortunately that spirit of flexibility does not seem to make it 
very far out of the book seven circle. I rarely see it practiced.

Regards,

Scott
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Re: To Brent: one point

2004-12-10 Thread Popeyesays




In a message dated 12/9/2004 10:42:17 PM Central Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
There is 
  a well-known book in English entitled *The True Believer* which describes the 
  psychological make-up of those who feel compelled to lose their individuality 
  in mass movements. In this case, I meant a 'true believer' in Ruhi, not the 
  Faith.

I had the great pleasure of meeting Eric Hoffer - must have been in 1966 - 
when I was a sophomore at the University of Texas at El Paso. He was there for a 
presentation to the public and a graduate seminar that I was allowed to sit in 
on. A most impressive man.

Regards,

Scott
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RE: Can the Baha'i Faith be a Big Tent or not?

2004-12-10 Thread Susan Maneck

But in practice, I believe we project an image of being another literal,
inerrant religion like evangelical Christianity or ultra-conservative
Islam.

Dear Ron,

I know you have this impression at present, but I think if you did a survey
of the general population who have some familiarity with Baha'i, this would
not be the terms in which they would describe us.

warmest, Susan


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RE: Not Exhausted

2004-12-10 Thread Susan Maneck

Gilberto: So in which directions can the  meanings of the book be
exhausted, and in which can't it?

Dear Gilberto,

What I'm suggesting is that there are endless depths to any true Word of
God. But that doesn't mean that any particular Book can be expected to
answer every question that will ever be asked.

warmest, Susan


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Re: Not Exhausted

2004-12-10 Thread Gilberto Simpson
On Fri, 10 Dec 2004 16:12:17 -0600, Susan Maneck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 Gilberto: So in which directions can the  meanings of the book be
 exhausted, and in which can't it?
 
 Dear Gilberto,
 
 What I'm suggesting is that there are endless depths to any true Word of
 God. But that doesn't mean that any particular Book can be expected to
 answer every question that will ever be asked.

Sure. I have a Christian friend with whom I often get into long
religious discussions. And one time he tried to argue that
Christianity is better and more complete than Islam essentially
because the Bible is a bigger book than the Quran. And he would go on
and on about how the Bible has everything you need. At that point I
would ask him whether his mom's phone number is also in the Bible. Yes
there are going to be specific pieces of information which are not
contained in whatever book but at the same time, the Quran says of
itself

[6:38] 
We have not neglected anything in the Book,

And I would say that the basic essentials are there, and the rest is
just detail.


Peace

Gilberto

My people are hydroponic

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RE: No Personal Opinions in Ruhi

2004-12-10 Thread Susan Maneck





  
  I doubt the House would object to any degree with developing new 
  material. It is not the House that is pushing Ruhi. It is the Regional 
  Teaching Institutes who will brook no variance. They say we HAVE Ruhi, so we 
  should USE Ruhi and not waste time developing other material.[Susan Maneck]
  
  Dear Scott,
  
  I think it is more than that. As far as I 
  can tell the ITC is behind the big Ruhi push. 
  warmest, Susan 

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Re: Book of Daniel fulfilled

2004-12-10 Thread Firouz Anaraki
Ronald Stephens:
But the theory of the ether was disproven by a specific scientific 
experiment, the Michelson-Morley experiment. It is virtually impossible that 
this could be overturned.

Firouz:
Just a few months ago I read in some American Science Journal that the 
theory of ether could be proven. I try to get the source of this news and 
share it with you.

regards,
Firouz
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Re: Not Exhausted

2004-12-10 Thread Gilberto Simpson
On Fri, 10 Dec 2004 17:01:07 -0600, Susan Maneck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


 [6:38]
 We have not neglected anything in the Book,

Gilberto:
 And I would say that the basic essentials are there [the Quran], and the rest 
 is just detail.
 
Susan:
 What is 'essential' in one age may not have been so essential previously.
 There are a lot of details in the Qur'an I don't consider essential at all,
 but it seems to be silent on other issues which are extremely important to
 me, like the eguality of women and men.

Gilberto:
Yes, we've had this discussion before, several times it seems, in
soc.religion.bahai. (Is this what Bahais mean by the Return... lol)

And at some point, you weren't just saying the Quran is silent about
the equality but that it is positively inconsistent with it.

I think there is a very thin tight-rope which I don't believe can be
walked skillfully, at least not using the approaches I've seen. In
order to order to say the Bahai faith represents progress, it means
you want to have it compare favorably to Islam and the Quran and it is
difficult-to-impossible to do that without being critical of
statements in the Quran, which you say also come from God.

I would say that the Quran can certainly be read faithfully in ways
which oppose sexist oppression and protect the interests and concerns
of women. And so in that sense a new religion isn't really necessary.
I don't see how you could depart from that position very far without
accusing God of being a sexist pig.

Peace

Gilberto


My people are hydroponic

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RE: Not Exhausted

2004-12-10 Thread Susan Maneck

And at some point, you weren't just saying the Quran is silent about
the equality but that it is positively inconsistent with it.

Dear Gilberto,

I think the details of the Qur'an are inconsistent with the social equality
of women as we presently understand it.

it means
you want to have it compare favorably to Islam and the Quran and it is
difficult-to-impossible to do that without being critical of
statements in the Quran, which you say also come from God.

Recognizing a scripture's limitations is not necessarily a criticism of the
scripture itself, though it might well be a criticism of its application.
The Qur'an did what it could to improve the position of women at the time it
was written. Full eguality was neither possible nor even desirable then.

warmest, Susan


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Re: Ruhi, Prolonged Discussions

2004-12-10 Thread Popeyesays




In a message dated 12/10/2004 11:22:04 PM Central Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
The problem 
  is that they appear to make an exception with their own 
comments.

Which is precisely what has always perturbed me with reading Ruhi method 
material.


Regards,

Scott
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Re: Ruhi, Prolonged Discussions

2004-12-10 Thread Smaneck




In a message dated 12/10/2004 11:45:05 P.M. Central Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
I think 
  that many are willing to take what the editors say at face 
value.

Well, that certainly happens, and at times tutors encourage it. When one 
participant noted that no source was given to support the assertion that the 
Writings said something or other, the tutor insisted it must be right because 
the House of Justice had approved of these materials. Similarly, when I 
suggested to a Board Member that Ruhi be revised by removing pilgrim's notes and 
not asking close-ended questions that expected the reader to parrot back 
editorial opinions (as opposed to scriptural texts) I was told that the World 
Centre found the material fine as it was and that therefore we shouldn't mess 
with it. 

warmest, Susan 
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The Iqan and Reason

2004-12-10 Thread Brent Poirier
Dear Ron:

Its my understanding that Bahaullah demonstrates a hundred times in the 
course of the Iqan that a literal approach to Scripture is a superficial one.

But I see that as entirely different from what you have said here about the 
Book.  You seem to me to be conflating a non-literal approach, with a 
non-infallible approach that I personally dont see support for in that Book.

For example you say: If we believe in a literally inerrant scripture (which we 
call the Writings) then how do we differ from evangelical Christians who 
believe the same about the Bible, or ultra conservative Muslims who believe the 
same about the Quran?

I want to address your point, but not in any way bring on board any baggage 
from Biblical or Quranic approaches used by others.  I want to stick with the 
approach Bahaullah uses.  

I may be missing your point, but it appears that your reading of that Book is 
that Bahaullah does not say in it that Scripture is infallible.  Yet He twice 
(pp. 169 and 190) refers to the Quran as His unerring Book and on page 201 
He states of the Quran its decrees are indisputable, and its promise 
unfailing, and finally, its guidance can never err.

If your point is what we human beings *do* with that unerring Book  no 
disagreement here. But it seems to me that part of your issue is with the claim 
that the Book is itself infallible; is that correct, or have I misunderstood 
you? 

You say: in the Book of Certitude and He shows that we must use logic and 
reason.  There are surely places in the Book where He points out the illogic 
of some commonly-held views of religion; but my personal view of the Iqan is 
that He makes a far stronger appeal to faith in the Manifestation, and faith in 
His Words, over human reason.  For example, on page 187 Bahaullah quotes this 
verse from Rumi: All human attainment moveth upon a lame ass, whilst Truth, 
riding upon the wind, darteth across space.  This was quoted in the context of 
those who tried to use the sciences of the day to grasp the meaning of the 
miraj of the Prophet Muhammad.

There is also a lengthy pronouncement on how knowledge that runs counter to 
Revelation is harmful to mans advancement.  On page 188 He refers to knowledge 
that keeps people at a distance from the Manifestations as the densest of all 
veils.  He speaks of two kinds of knowledge - - that which is illuminated by 
Revelation, and that which is not, which He calls satanic knowledge.

Please do not for one minute think Im saying that Bahaullah doesnt 
encourage us in His Writings to use our reason; of course He does.  I just 
dont see that as the major theme in that particular Book, and I believe you 
have said that you feel that it is.  Maybe it is, and I have not paid close 
enough attention.

You also write:

I have bought into the vision of a glorious Prophet Who asks that we accept 
His Revelation *because* it is in accord with reason, logic and science, as 
well as the eternal spiritual principles espoused by all the previous true 
Prophets; only to later discover that many if not most of His adherents don't 
buy into His fundamental acknowledgement of science, reason and logic at all.

I think it is a fair statement to say that there are such statements in 
Bahaullahs Writings; and even stronger ones in the Masters Writings.  I 
personally think that the majority of the Bahais believe this.

But even if your statement is 100% accurate, that most of the friends dont see 
this, my response would be, So what?  That is, I try to live according to 
what Bahaullah wants. If I can make Him happy, I really dont care much 
whether I am in accord with the friends.  If I hold a view about the Faith, 
because I think its rooted in the Writings, I figure that whether a thousand 
people disagree with me today, tomorrow others will hold the same view.  The 
Truth will out. And likewise, I trust that my own illusions will, with the 
passage of time and Gods good grace, pass away.  My point being:  I am not 
very concerned about the views of the friends, it just isnt a part of my 
spiritual universe.  I listen, I hope to learn; but if a thousand people stand 
up at Convention and say something, that does not affect my certitude in the 
Faith, one bit. I am not sure why you feel the views of the Bahais are all 
that important.  All of us come into the Faith with a bushel basket of nonsense 
in our heads of one kind or another; and gradually, through the prayers and the 
Writings, through the cleansing force of the river of the water of life that 
flows through us, we get closer to truth.  

I suggest that this statement from Shoghi Effendi clarifies the point I wish to 
make:

Surely, the believers  should never be looked upon as a standard whereby to 
evaluate and measure the divine authority and mission of the Faith. It is to 
the Teachings themselves, and to the lives of the Founders of the Cause that 
the believers should look for their guidance and inspiration, and only by 

Re: Can the Baha'i Faith be a Big Tent or not?

2004-12-10 Thread Smaneck




In a message dated 12/11/2004 12:30:05 A.M. Central Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
If I 
  am honst, I have this same issue. The sufferigof Jesus on the cross is a 
  powerful story. Try as I might, I can not see Baha'u'llah's imprisonment for 
  decades as equivalent. It just isnt' the same kind of powerful imagery. 
  

Dear Ron, 

I'm not so sure. Remember that the African slave experience is that of a 
lifetime of suffering, not a few hours on the cross. That is closer to 
Baha'u'llah's suffering. If the imagery of the cross is more powerful in 
Christianity it is because Christians themselves have made it such. 

warmest, Susan 
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Re: Can the Baha'i Faith be a Big Tent or not?

2004-12-10 Thread Mark A. Foster
Patti,

At 09:12 PM 12/10/2004, you wrote:
I think that the point of it is that people might be interested in the Faith 
with their heads, but their hearts  spirits need to be touched 

I won't comment on the Ruhi part. However, I agree that the above is important, 
and, to that extent, Hedi Ahmadiyya was on the right track. What was missing, 
in my view was:

1. The absence of permanent community centers in each neighborhood.

2. The fact that the teachers immediately left. Consolidation teams would only 
show up months or years later. Sometimes they would never show up. In my view, 
the mass teachers should, ideally, be homefront pioneers who themselves will be 
involved in the consolidation. (In fact, Ahmadiyya suggested that the same 
people involved in mass teaching needed to do the consolidation.)

Mark A. Foster * http://markfoster.net
Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger 
-- Abbie Hoffman 


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Re: Book of Daniel fulfilled

2004-12-10 Thread Mark A. Foster
The last three paragraphs of a lecture by A. Einstein, 1920:

 IMO, a careful reading of `Abdu'l-Baha's comments on ether will show that He 
used it as a metaphor for spirit. He was a storyteller. If He were alive today, 
He might instead speak of bits and bytes.

Mark A. Foster * http://markfoster.net
Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger 
-- Abbie Hoffman 


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Re: Ruhi, Prolonged Discussions

2004-12-10 Thread Mark A. Foster
Scott,

Ruhi wrote:
We believe that the simple habit of thinking about the implications of the 
Writings with the minimum of personal interpretation would eliminate a great 
share of the disagreements that afflict consultation in many communities,

You replied to Ruhi:
In other words the opinions of the Ruhi editors supersede the Scripture 
itself?

The question I would ask is how does thinking about the implications of the 
Writings differ from personal interpretation?

Mark A. Foster * http://markfoster.net
Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger 
-- Abbie Hoffman 


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Re: No Personal Opinions in Ruhi

2004-12-10 Thread Mark A. Foster
Hi, Susan,

At 10:49 PM 12/9/2004, you wrote:
I guess the question is will that 'unity of thought' not then be a 
literalistic one? And is that really what our Writings encourage?

Given my personal emphasis on orthopraxy and polydoxy over orthodoxy, that is 
one of my concerns, as well. IMO, unity of thought refers to keeping one's mind 
and heart centered on Baha'u'llah and `Abdu'l-Baha, i.e., the Covenant. It has 
nothing directly to do with the fundamentalist indoctrination process used by 
Ruhi.

Mark A. Foster * http://markfoster.net
Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger 
-- Abbie Hoffman 


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re: Ruhi, Ruhi Method Rigidity

2004-12-10 Thread Brent Poirier
Tutor: I don't think any of the ideas you have described is wrong or 
undesirable in principle. The problem is .that referring to them as elements of 
a Ruhi method introduces rigidity into a process that is otherwise simple, 
joyful, and sensitive to a diversity of needs. For example, you all remember 
that at the beginning of Book I, a technique is used whereby the participants 
ask simple questions of one another. The use of this technique has a clear 
purpose, which is to help the participants focus on Baha'i text,
But once such a habit is created, why would one continue to employ a
technique that can easily become mechanical. Of course, there might be 
occasions now and then in other units when the technique is useful, but it 
should certainly not be called the Ruhi method. What is more, it is not 
necessary to ask everyone to repeat the same question one after another, which 
would naturally only annoy them. Usually after one or two repetitions, the 
purpose of the exercise is achieved. (Ruhi, Book 7)


I think this is an example of participants bringing ridigity into a more 
flexible process; most of the Ruhi tutors I've met have not permitted this 
flexibility, but have stuck with the technique that annoys after over-use.  I 
know a person who is approaching professional people and using the Ruhi books 
as a basis for discussion, with success.  The non-Baha'i professionals like the 
structure and content, and the flexible and more intuitive approach to the 
materials is maintaining keen interest.

I remember when the instructions came from the World Centre to determine the 
boundaries of clusters.  Everybody I knew started adding complexity to the 
process and got it wrong except Counsellor Huerta, who saw it clearly from the 
start.

These quotes are very helpful, thanks Max.

Brent

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Re: No Personal Opinions in Ruhi

2004-12-10 Thread Michael Alcorn
Unity in diversity does not imply uniformity! Why is there so much objection
to a methodical system being introduced? Harmony of thought also does not
negate the independent search for truth. The study circle brings together a
variety of people with a variety of opinions in a harmonious, welcoming
atmosphere of learning (IMO).
Of course there are widely differing experiences but isn't this true of life
in general? The objections I see seem to be actuated by prejudice and an
unwillingness to participate.

- Original Message - 
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Baha'i Studies [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, December 10, 2004 1:53 PM
Subject: Re: No Personal Opinions in Ruhi


 In a message dated 12/10/2004 7:04:01 A.M. Central Standard Time,
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 unity of  thought refers to keeping one's mind and heart centered on
 Baha'u'llah and  `Abdu'l-Baha, i.e., the Covenant. It has nothing directly
to do with
 the  fundamentalist indoctrination process used by Ruhi.

 Dear Mark,

 This is how the term is used by Abdu'l-Baha in the Seven Candles of Unity:
 The second candle is unity of thought in world undertakings, the
 consummation of which will erelong be witnessed

 That's seems to refer more to the UN reaching a consensus than Baha'is
being
 on the same page even about the Covenant.

 I just went back and looked at Baha'u'llah's Tablet of Unity. The phrase
 doesn't even occur there.

 warmest, Susan









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RE: Book of Daniel fulfilled

2004-12-10 Thread James Mock

even where they contradict known laws of nature and common sense
What is a known law?  If you had asked people 600 years ago, they would 
have proven to you that the world is flat.

We cannot accept things known today as scientific fact.
Mathematicians, astronomers, chemical scientists continually disprove and 
reject the conclusions of the ancients; nothing is fixed, nothing final; 
everything continually changing because human reason is progressing along 
new roads of investigation and arriving at new conclusions every day. In the 
future much that is announced and accepted as true now will be rejected and 
disproved. And so it will continue ad infinitum.

 	   ‘Abdu'l-Bahá, Bahá'í World Faith, 
p. 252

For anyone to insist that interpretation follow known scientific laws of 
the day is as short-sighted as Baha'is who insist on a literal 
interpretation of a specific very.

It must always be born in mind:
Know assuredly that just as thou firmly believest that the Word of God, 
exalted be His glory, endureth for ever, thou must, likewise, believe with 
undoubting faith that its meaning can never be exhausted.

   Bahá'u'lláh, Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá'u'lláh, p. 175
Insistence, whether on a literal interpretation or conformity with 
science, is our barrier.

James

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Re: No Personal Opinions in Ruhi

2004-12-10 Thread Dick Detweiler

From: Mark A. Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: Baha'i Studies [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Baha'i Studies [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: No Personal Opinions in Ruhi
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 08:45:32 -0600
On the one hand you say:
I would be interested in the demographics of long-term Ruhi participation 
and how it correlates with the general Baha'i populations in different 
areas. My guess* would is that we would see a negative correlation between 
participation and SES (socioeconomic status).

And then you say:
Prejudice refers to prejudging based on stereotypes. In my case, I 
intentionally kept an open mind before going to my first Ruhi meeting.

Seems a tad hypocritical to me but that is just my take on this whole 
exchange.

Forgive me for jumping in.  Actually, its nice to see some life on this 
list!  Gives me hope that the Faith might just have some life in it yet.  
I've been on a self-imposed year of patience with the Faith and being away 
from activity has given me some different perspectives.

Anyway, I am a bit surprised at the consistent negativity towards Ruhi even 
though the House has over and over made it plain it has no intentions of 
forcing exclusivity to any form of deepening/teaching/studying.  If you 
don't want to participate, fine.  Who is forcing this on you?  if there are 
people who are really taken with it and even NSA's who want to focus on it - 
is that affecting your own spiritual journey?  Are they forcing you to 
participate?

I'll be honest - Ruhi style learning is not my cup of tea.  I took the first 
book and left the 2nd book (or was it the 3rd? - the one on teaching) 
because I was uncomfortable with it.  But I can accept that there are 
members of our community who have gotten a lot out of it and from what I can 
tell there are 2nd generation study circles going on in the community which 
speaks to the value some here have put on the method.  Granted, you (and I 
for that matter) may think it is overdone by some institutions and 
individuals but so what?   Isn't the Faith big enough to overcome such 
mistakes?  I sure hope so.   If the Faith is what it means to be it better.

Someone mentioned their objection to Ruhi being that it doesn't address the 
needs of the educated, well off westerners.  OK, great.  So develop 
something you think will.  Surely you don't think the House of Justice would 
object to that do you?  If they do, then I for one know this isn't the 
Baha'i Faith it used to be.  But I'd have a hard time believing they'd get 
in the way.

I mean, why is it so important to put down the efforts of obviously sincere 
and motivated individuals in a process that is at the worst a way of 
learning that doesn't fit your own particular style of learning and at the 
best, has been a positive influence in some communities around the world?  
Move on and do something you feel would be constructive.  Surely the tent is 
big enough for that?

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Re: No Personal Opinions in Ruhi

2004-12-10 Thread Mark A. Foster
Hi, Dick,

At 09:14 AM 12/10/2004, you wrote:
On the one hand you say:
I would be interested in the demographics of long-term Ruhi participation and 
how it correlates with the general Baha'i populations in different areas. My 
guess* would is that we would see a negative correlation between 
participation and SES (socioeconomic status).
And then you say:
Prejudice refers to prejudging based on stereotypes. In my case, I 
intentionally kept an open mind before going to my first Ruhi meeting.
Seems a tad hypocritical to me but that is just my take on this whole 
exchange.

I don't believe so. If so, social scientists exercise hypocrisy whenever they 
formulate hypotheses. On the one hand, you attempt to bracket' any personally 
held stereotypes (emotional generalizations). On the other, you make a 
prediction (hypothesis) about about possible relationships between variables. 
The two are not inconsistent.

Anyway, I am a bit surprised at the consistent negativity towards Ruhi even 
though the House has over and over made it plain it has no intentions of 
forcing exclusivity to any form of deepening/teaching/studying.  If you don't 
want to participate, fine.  

What if an NSA makes homefront pioneering goals contingent on conducting Ruhi 
classes? That sounds pretty exclusive to me.

Who is forcing this on you?  if there are people who are really taken with it 
and even NSA's who want to focus on it - is that affecting your own spiritual 
journey?  Are they forcing you to participate?

There are different types of pressure.

Isn't the Faith big enough to overcome such mistakes?  I sure hope so.   If 
the Faith is what it means to be it better.

I don't think anyone has suggested otherwise.

Someone mentioned their objection to Ruhi being that it doesn't address the 
needs of the educated, well off westerners.  OK, great.  So develop something 
you think will.  Surely you don't think the House of Justice would object to 
that do you?  If they do, then I for one know this isn't the Baha'i Faith it 
used to be.  But I'd have a hard time believing they'd get in the way.

Eventually, I will get around to doing so. I had promised to start a list on 
this subject, but other things have taken my time. However, at least in the 
short term, Ruhi will be the only game in town (at least in the U.S.).

I mean, why is it so important to put down the efforts of obviously sincere 
and motivated individuals in a process that is at the worst a way of learning 
that doesn't fit your own particular style of learning and at the best, has 
been a positive influence in some communities around the world?

I can't speak to the rest of the world, but I do not see much in the way of 
positive influence, at least as I would define it, in the U.S. 

Mark A. Foster * http://markfoster.net
Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger 
-- Abbie Hoffman 


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RE: Book of Daniel fulfilled

2004-12-10 Thread James Mock
Ron wrote:
Do you see my point?
Your point is understood.  This non-scientific mind, however, would assert 
that nothing is final.

There is but one power which heals -- that is God. The state or condition 
through which the healing takes place is the confidence of the heart. By 
some this state is reached through pills, powders, and physicians. By others 
through hygiene, fasting, and prayer. By others through direct perception.

(Abdu'l-Baha, Abdu'l-Baha in London, p. 95)
Would modern science agree with this assertion?
James

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Unity of Thought

2004-12-10 Thread Smaneck
In a message dated 12/10/04 6:14:45 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:


It is now that unity of thought and action is most needed. It is now, when the Cause is entering a new phase of development, when its Administration is being gradually consolidated amid the welter and chaos of a tottering civilization, that the friends should present a united front to those forces of internal dissension, which, if not completely wiped out, will bring our work to inevitable destruction." 


Thanks for this other citation, Mark. It seems the term is also used to refer to our ability to arrive at consultative decision and to act on them with unanimity. 

warmest, Susan 
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Re: Can the Baha'i Faith be a Big Tent or not?

2004-12-10 Thread Popeyesays




In a message dated 12/10/2004 11:27:37 AM Central Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
And, most 
  importantly, doesnt Bahaullah caution against precisely such a literal 
  inerrant approach in His Book of Certitude? This major theme of the Book of 
  Certitude seems to be something that never gets discussed and never is taken 
  seriously. 

I think all the sacred texts can be taken as inerrant in context. It is 
when we clip verses and hold them up as "union placards" that we run into 
trouble. We are in effect taking the verse out of context. Study of the word 
shows that interpretation of the word must be inclusive of other 
interpretations. When we cannot find a way to include an interpretation into our 
understanding of the word then it is our understanding that is deficient, not 
the word itself.
This is why (in my understanding) the sacred text demands that we bring our 
scientific and spiritual understandings of creation into a synchronized state, 
because those "interpretations" of creation must be inclusive.

Literalism is the great foe of such an understanding. It is a set of chains 
and shackles which an individual dons voluntarily and then extolls to others. 
For myself, no thank you, I am not interested. It is firmly set in my personal 
view of reality that my misunderstandings are inerrant, the word will not be if 
I can change my understanding.

Regards,

Scott
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Re: Can the Baha'i Faith be a Big Tent or not?

2004-12-10 Thread Mark A. Foster
Hi, Ron,

At 11:40 AM 12/10/2004, you wrote:
It is my impression that, in the Book of Certitude, Baha'u'llah makes a case 
that the over-emphasis on literalism by proponents of relgion is a leading 
cause for the decline of religious faith and the declining respect for 
religion. Am I correct in my impression?

IMHO, literalism can, from one standpoint, be defined as an attachment to 
names, i.e., regarding them (including our Sacred Texts) as being 
representations, or manifestations, or reality.

I believe that Baha'u'lah would make the same criticism today of Baha'i 
attitudes, that He made when He wrote the Book of Certitude.

I think that is a very good point. I suspect He would make a similar criticism.

Mark A. Foster * http://markfoster.net
Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger 
-- Abbie Hoffman 


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Re: Ruhi, Prolonged Discussions

2004-12-10 Thread Michael Alcorn
That is not true!
One cannot fail to meditate on the writings after going through the
sequence.

- Original Message - 
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Baha'i Studies [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, December 10, 2004 5:41 PM
Subject: Re: Ruhi, Prolonged Discussions



 In a message dated 12/10/2004 6:55:37 AM Central Standard Time,
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 The question  I would ask is how does thinking about the implications of
the
 Writings  differ from personal interpretation?



 Seems to be the same question I asked myself, and the conclusion I drew
was
 that the Ruhi editors opinion (personal interpretation) is supposed to
 supersede  what the Writings say about reading the revelations and
meditating upon
 them.  Reading the text and meditating on the text is what the writings
TELL us
 to do.  Yet the Ruhi editors seem to think otherwise.

 Regards,

 Scott


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Re: Book of Daniel fulfilled

2004-12-10 Thread Smaneck
In a message dated 12/10/04 9:27:32 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:


There is but one power which heals -- that is God. The state or condition 
through which the healing takes place is the confidence of the heart. By 
some this state is reached through pills, powders, and physicians. By others 
through hygiene, fasting, and prayer. By others through direct perception."

 (Abdu'l-Baha, Abdu'l-Baha in London, p. 95)

Would "modern science" agree with this assertion?


Dear James, 

I modern historian might not either. My recollection is that Abdu'l-Baha in London is not a canonical text. We do not have the original transcripts for any of these talks and we can't really ascertain what Abdu'l-Baha actually said. 

warmest, Susan 

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RE: Book of Daniel fulfilled

2004-12-10 Thread Ronald Stephens

James Mock wrote:

There is but one power which heals -- that is God. The state or condition 
through which the healing takes place is the confidence of the heart. By 
some this state is reached through pills, powders, and physicians. By others 
through hygiene, fasting, and prayer. By others through direct perception.

   (Abdu'l-Baha, Abdu'l-Baha in London, p. 95)

Would modern science agree with this assertion?

James

If I put on my scientist hat, I would say that science has nothing to say about 
the quote above, because the quote is talking about spiritual matters, not 
scientific ones. As a scientist, one can certainly not state that the mind has 
no influence on the body, there is plenty of scientific evidence showing the 
powerful influence the mind has on the body. As to God, though, I do not 
think science can comment one way or the other.

Of course, there are doctrinaire 'scientists' who would reject any mention of 
'God' out of hand. But they do not speak for science, only for themselves. I 
would call such people fundamentalists in the religion of science. But we 
should avoid being like them, and accept that science is a very important path 
to truth, and religious writings are not science.

There simply is no proof when it comes to ultimate questions like God and 
religion and the ultimate purpose of life and the universe. We each must 
investigate for ourselves. But how do we decide whether to accept a certain 
Prophet's vision? I think that Baha'u'llah addresses this question in the Book 
of Certitude and He shows that we must use logic and reason. If a Prophet says 
the universe was creating by constipated ducks, I personally would not buy into 
that Prophet's religion. If a Prophet says that science is a bunch of nonsense 
and that we should abandon the scientific method, I wouldn't buy into that 
Prophet's vision either.

The dilemmna I face is this. I have bought into the vision of a glorious 
Prophet Who asks that we accept His Revelation *because* it is in accord with 
reason, logic and science, as well as the eternal spiritual principles espoused 
by all the previous true Prophets; only to later discover that many if not most 
of His adherents don't buy into His fundamental acknowledgement of science, 
reason and logic at all, and may even consider such a belief in reason and 
science to be bordering on heresy.


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Re: Not Exhausted

2004-12-10 Thread Gilberto Simpson
On Fri, 10 Dec 2004 13:21:42 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 In a message dated 12/10/04 8:31:16 AM Pacific Standard Time,
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:  

  Know assuredly that just as thou firmly believest that the Word of God, 
  exalted be His glory, endureth for ever, thou must, likewise, believe with
  undoubting faith that its meaning can never be exhausted. 
 
 Bahá'u'lláh, Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá'u'lláh, p. 175

 Does this apply to the Quran as well? 

Susan:
 In answer to your question, Gilberto, yes, I think the meanings of any true
 scripture cannot be exhausted. But I don't think any scripture, including
 Baha'i scripture, is exhaustive. That's why we have progressive revelation. 

Gilberto: So in which directions can the  meanings of the book be
exhausted, and in which can't it?

Peace

Gilberto

My people are hydroponic

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Re: Not Exhausted

2004-12-10 Thread Ron Stephens
Hello Gilberto,
I followed some of your discussions with Susan on another list, and I 
always thought that your comments and were very logical and well 
thought out.

Ron Stephens
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Re: Ruhi, Prolonged Discussions

2004-12-10 Thread Popeyesays




In a message dated 12/10/2004 11:38:05 PM Central Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Dear 
  Scott, It may be tempting to believe this, but I'm sure it is not what 
  the editors think they are doing. 

I am sure it isn't what they think they are saying, but I think that is 
also symptomatic of elevating one's own interpretation to a level higher than it 
should have. I read their words, and I see this meaning to it. I think that many 
are willing to take what the editors say at face value. I do not think it is 
sinister, but I think it is a significant flaw.

Regards,

Scott
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