Re: apophaticism and amphibole
Many thanks Kazeh! The scholar who used the two terms with reference to the Bab's utterance Verily, Verily I am God; There is no God but Him it seems to me, has been most reverently precise and helpful. Richard. The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Devastating stampede
gilberto, i don;t think they are stupid or silly. ur point seems to be, if i am getting it, is that religion is somehow different from other social sets. i have difficulty seeing how. matters of beleif ...sure... verry grey area. if freind x tells me they have many ideas similar to those of Baha'is, i can agree. if someone tells me that person abc is a nice guy and ever so Baha'i like...i personally tend to cringe, becuase niceness is not something that comes from being a Baha'i as some automatic gift. a spiritual life with internal consistency tends to prodice harmonious outward behaviour. that is by no means new or exclusive to the Faith. the point of my legalistic interpreation about the Faith being Property of Baha'u'llah, and subject to logic in thoset erms is that it obviates the entire pseudo-construct of shoghi effendi leaving no will. he had no estate. he was trustee of an estate, and had in fact, clearly and evidently, appointed with due authority a board to take over the duties of guardian/trustee of that Estate until it could be delivered. yeah, i am quite familair with trhe idea that people thought the clause in the Aqdas about the line of the Centre running out wouldn;t happen at all, or not for a long tiem. so let us do another hypothetical. a billionaire dies, and leaves his wealth to a foundation. the terms of the flundation are spelled out in the will. they call for a board of directors. in the meantime, an executor of the will is named in the will, and duly authorised to do his job. no one would argue that his death has anything to do with the legitimacy of the will he was executing, particularly if he had filed an affidavit wit hteh court that his company, law form, or wnhatever, would be overseeing the execution of the will any tine he was unavailable. now, if someone tells me they thin this is silly, so be it. i am not saying the same of them. i am saying firmly that they lack the right to tell me i am wrong. they may say they see the situation differenty. but not that i am wrong. i am saying firmly, here and on a reallly long thread elsewhre, that their understanding and issueas are none of my business. and that this sword cuts both ways. they lack any claim of any moral right to change my understanding. we may exchange views, as u and i are doing. we may share. if we do so lovingly, we may both gain from the exchange. anyone may say they see the Faith as not being the religion for them becuase It does not conform to their private understadning of what Go'ds religion is. no problem. the issue is that people do not have the right in my firmest beleif, to say that the Faith must change to suit their understadning. since i am not in harmony with the sociologic appraoch, i will hesitate to accept someone's self-identification as a Baha'i. as a creature still to some degree trapped by names, when said person identifies with process concistent with that of members of the Baha'i Faith, then Baha'i will tend to be the word i use to dedscribe their behaviour. The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Devastating stampede
On 9/9/05, firestorm [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: gilberto, i don;t think they are stupid or silly. ur point seems to be, if i am getting it, is that religion is somehow different from other social sets. No, the point is that many social sets (including religion) are very different from mathematical sets. Class, race, ethnicity, nationality, even gender. For each of those there are ambiguous cases. There is not a single uncontraversial hard and fast rule that can be applied in the same way as integer or irrational number. i have difficulty seeing how. matters of beleif ...sure... verry grey area. if freind x tells me they have many ideas similar to those of Baha'is, i can agree. if someone tells me that person abc is a nice guy and ever so Baha'i like...i personally tend to cringe, becuase niceness is not something that comes from being a Baha'i as some automatic gift. I very much agree, but I'm not sure how that relates to the discussion. I don't think those are the kind of cases we are talking about. We are talking about people who actually believe that Bahaullah is a Manifestation (and accept Abdul-Baha.. and Shoghi Effendi) and say of themselves that they are Bahais. a spiritual life with internal consistency tends to prodice harmonious outward behaviour. that is by no means new or exclusive to the Faith. Yes. the point of my legalistic interpreation about the Faith being Property of Baha'u'llah, and subject to logic in thoset erms is that it obviates the entire pseudo-construct of shoghi effendi leaving no will. he had no estate. he was trustee of an estate, and had in fact, clearly and evidently, appointed with due authority a board to take over the duties of guardian trustee of that Estate until it could be delivered. I don't necessarily want to get into the ins and outs because I don't think they matter all that much in terms of what I'm saying. I honestly don't have a strong opinion on what the most correct interpretation of the Bahai faith is. But as an outsider I wouldn't pick a side. yeah, i am quite familair with trhe idea that people thought the clause in the Aqdas about the line of the Centre running out wouldn;t happen at all, or not for a long time. Okay.. so the Orthodox side isn't unreasonable. so let us do another hypothetical. a billionaire dies, and leaves his wealth to a foundation. the terms of the flundation are spelled out in the will. they call for a board of directors. in the meantime, an executor of the will is named in the will, and duly authorised to do his job. no one would argue that his death has anything to do with the legitimacy of the will he was executing, particularly if he had filed an affidavit wit hteh court that his company, law form, or wnhatever, would be overseeing the execution of the will any tine he was unavailable. now, if someone tells me they thin this is silly, so be it. i am not saying the same of them. i am saying firmly that they lack the right to tell me i am wrong. Again, I don't necessarily want to get into the ins and outs, but Shoghi Effendi didn't directly establish the Universal House of Justice. And if in your analogy Board of Directors = Hands of the Cause then Mason Remey was one of them. If you have a contraversial situation and the majority goes one way, and a minority (even a solitary one) goes another... I think that even if the minority opinion is incorrect, I think it is overkill to say their opinion is so profoundly invalid that the people who disagree are actually not Bahai. since i am not in harmony with the sociologic appraoch, i will hesitate to accept someone's self-identification as a Baha'i. And at that point we should agree to disagree, and drop the discussion. Okay? Peace Gilberto The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web -
RE: Self-Definition
You always have choices, Mark. Your's has been to define yourself as an academic and to toe that line. Yhat's ok, but be honest with yourself, you have chosen. Ian Semple, in a talk on obedience, discussed the collaborater who says he had no choice but to betray others, or he would have been killed. Semple says he could have chosen to die. Dear Rich, Why in the world are you comparing Mark to a collaborator? Because he chooses not to make judge others? That might not be too bad a quality to acquire! I think it good to keep in mind that when non-Baha'is raise issues on this list they are expecting Baha'i answers not sociological answers. Rich, there are very few non-Baha'is on this list and we are not here for teaching purposes. It is a list for *studying* the Baha'i Faith *from an academic perspective.* In grad school I wrote a paper on healthcare views in the Baha'i Faith from a nursing and anthropological perspective and I kept that perspective, but I didn't kid myself that it had anything to do with the Faith from it's own perspective. So why are you objecting to what Mark is saying? He already admitted that from the standpoing of the Baha'i Administration these people are not Baha'is. warmest, Susan The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Self Definitions
I believe the responses on this list should reflect a Baha'i perspective first as its purpose is to explore the Faith, not academias view of the Faith. Dear Rich, That is not the case. The purpose of this list is for academics and non-academics to examine the Baha'i Faith from an academic perspective. warmest, Susan The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
eScribe
Hi, folks, I just received this email. eScribe is apparently not dead It is not entirely clear from the below when it will be back online - but perhaps by tomomrrow: Dead power supply, second one not powerful enough, buying biggest I can find tonight. I'm the last surviving volunteer on the eScribe server project and can only work on it after work hours. Via moderna, Mark A. Foster . http://markfoster.net ... since [a] word is said to be common, it can be called a universal. - Wm. of Ockham, Summa Logicae, part I Structurization Tech: http://tech.structurization.com The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Glory of God in the Arabic New Testament
All,
Below are a few other verses ofthe New Testament that directly mention "the Glory of God". Since therevised versions of the Arabic Bible are readily available on the internet, I did verify that theycurrently use the wordMajd'u'llah. I assume the 1933 versions of the Bible used "Baha'u'llah" for these terms as well. If not incovenience, please confirm.
John 11:40 - Then Jesus said, "Did I not tell you that if you believed, you would see the Glory of God (Majd'u'llah, Baha'u'llah)?"
Romans 5:2 - And we rejoice in the hope of the Glory of God (Majd'u'llah, Baha'u'llah).
1 Corinthians 10:31 - So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the Glory of God (Majd'u'llah, Baha'u'llah).
Still, the verse in Revelation 21:23 is the most striking. Why?
It is the very section about:
- "The New Jerusalem",
- the coming of the Kingdom of God on earth.
- "Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them."
- "God himself will be with them."
- "There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away."
Baha'u'llah proclaimed He brought the New World Order, one that would replace today's weak and crumbling order. Revelation 21:5 "I am making everything New!"... "Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true."
Then John says that the "loud voice from the throne" says : "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who is thirsty I will give to drink without cost from the spring of the water of life."
Finally, John looks into the city but doesn't see a temple in it, but acknowledges that Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple. It doesn't need a temple at all, because Baha'u'llah, the Glory of God, gives it light, while the Lamb is the lampfrom which theGlory of God, Baha'u'llah, shines.
The New City is New because the Glory of God, Baha'u'llah,does the following:
1. replaces the sun and the moon
2.guides the nations, makes them honorable and glorious
3. permits the kings and rules to be splendorous
4. enables the gates to always be open (since the Glory always shines and never sets)
5. prevents impurity from every entering the City
All these topics are covered in detail in the Kitab-i-Iqan.
Regards,
Hajir
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Re: Glory of God in the Arabic New Testament
On 9/4/05, Brent Poirier [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Let's think through the question of whether Baha'u'llah chose His Name because it was mentioned in the Revelation of John explicitly. He assumed this name when He lived in Iraq; or was He still living in Iran? Both countries 90% Muslim. If His intention was to posture His name to fulfill prophecy, would He not have chosen a name from the Qur'an? Not necessarily. There are about two billion Christians in the world. There are over a billion Muslims. I'm NOT trying to accuse anyone of the Bahai figures of being cynical or dishonest but if I were going to make a popular world religion I wouldn't just ignore Biblical prophecies just because I'm in a part of the world where there are few Christians. Peace Gilberto The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Baha'i Faith as Fulfillment of the Mission of Islam
Awell organized website that reviews factors that make the Baha'i Faith the fulfillment of Islam's mission, and defines purpose of the Seal of the Prophets, the Prophet Muhammad. See http://bci.org/islam-bahai/
* Promise #1. Islam's Goal:
"This day have I perfected for you your religion and completed My favor on you and chosen for you Islam as a religion."- Qur'an 5:3
and
If anyone desires a religion other than Islam, never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who have lost (All spiritual good).- Qur'an 3:85
* Promise #2. Prophet Muhammad's Mission:
Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but He is the Messenger of God and the Seal of the Prophets.- Qur'an 33:40
* Fulfillment - Prerequisite and Preparation:
"But, O my brother, when a true seeker determineth to take the step of search in the path leading to the knowledge of the Ancient of Days, he must, before all else, cleanse and purify his heart, which is the seat of the revelation of the inner mysteries of God, from the obscuring dust of all acquired knowledge, and the allusions of the embodiments of satanic fancy. He must purge his breast, which is the sanctuary of the abiding love of the Beloved, of every defilement, and sanctify his soul from all that pertaineth to water and clay, from all shadowy and ephemeral attachments.
He must so cleanse his heart that no remnant of either love or hate may linger therein, lest that love blindly incline him to error, or that hate repel him away from the truth. Even as thou dost witness in this day how most of the people, because of such love and hate, are bereft of the immortal Face, have strayed far from the Embodiments of the divine mysteries, and, shepherdless, are roaming through the wilderness of oblivion and error.
That seeker must at all times put his trust in God, must renounce the peoples of the earth, detach himself from the world of dust, and cleave unto Him Who is the Lord of Lords. He must never seek to exalt himself above any one, must wash away from the tablet of his heart every trace of pride and vainglory, must cling unto patience and resignation, observe silence, and refrain from idle talk."
- Baha'u'llah Kitab-i-Iqan 192
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Re: Glory of God in the Arabic New Testament
--[Why did Mirza Husayn-Ali Nuri use the title "Baha'u'llah"?]There are about two billion Christians in the world.There are over a billion Muslims. I'm NOT trying to accuse anyone ofthe Bahai figures of being cynical or dishonest but if I were going tomake a popular world religion I wouldn't just ignore Biblicalprophecies just because I'm in a part of the world where there are fewChristians.
Hi Gilberto,
The primary proof for Baha'u'llahareHisWritings,the transformative power He had over His companions and followers, and the fact that His principles,layed out over 150 years ago,are beingcarried out bypeople who are ironically still unaware of Him.
1. Some of His Writingsguide andshine Glory/Bahaupon the individual and the nations:
A) "In all matters moderation is desirable. If a thing is carried to excess, it will prove a source of evil."
B) "Know, verily, the heart wherein the least remnant of envy yet lingers, shall never attain My everlasting dominion, nor inhale the sweet savors of holiness breathing from My kingdom of sanctity."
C) "The purpose of religion as revealed from the heaven of God's holy Will is to establish unity and concord amongst the peoples of the world; make it not the cause of dissension and strife."
2. And others give us a glimpse into His Unique relationship with God Almighty, and instill in us a sense of awe for God and His Manifestation.
Baha'u'llah creates a new people whoshare with Himthe qualitiesof His Own Eyes, Ears, and Tongue eyes that only see God, ears that only perceive God's Word, and tongues that only mention God's remembrance.
"O **EYES** of this Temple! Look not upon the heavens and that which they contain, nor upon the earth and them that dwell thereon, for We have created you to behold Our own Beauty: See it now before you! Withhold not your gaze therefrom, and deprive not yourselves of the Beauty of your Lord, the All-Glorious, the Best-Beloved. Erelong shall We bring into being through you keen and penetrating**EYES** that will contemplate the manifold signs of their Creator and turn away from all that is perceived by the people of the world. Through you shall We bestow the power of**VISION** upon whomsoever We desire, and lay hold upon those who have deprived themselves of this gracious bounty. These, verily, have drunk from the cup of delusion, though they perceive it not.
O**EARS** of this Temple! Purge yourselves from all idle clamour and hearken unto the voice of your Lord. He, verily, revealeth unto you, from the Throne of glory, that there is none other God save Me, the All-Glorious, the Almighty, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting. Erelong shall We bring into being through you pure and undefiled**EARS** which will heed the Word of God and that which hath appeared from the Dayspring of the Utterance of your Lord, the All-Merciful. They shall assuredly**PERCEIVE** the sweet accents of Divine Revelation that proceed from these most blessed and hallowed precincts.
O**TONGUE** of this Temple! We, verily, have created thee through Our name, the All-Merciful, have taught thee whatsoever had remained concealed in the Bayn, and have bestowed upon thee the power of **UTTERANCE**, that thou mayest **MAKE MENTION** of Mine exalted Self amidst My creatures. **PROCLAIM**, then, this wondrous and mighty Remembrance, and fear not the manifestations of the Evil One. Thou wert called into being for this very purpose by virtue of My transcendent and all-compelling command. Through thee have We unloosed the **TONGUEOF UTTERANCE** to expound all that hath been, and We shall again, by My sovereign power, unloose it to **SPEAK** of that which is yet to come. Erelong shall We bring into being through thee eloquent **TONGUES** that will praise and extol Me amongst the Concourse on high and amidst the peoples of the world. Thus have the verses of God been revealed, and thus hath it been decreed by the Lord of all names and at!
tributes.
Thy Lord, verily, is the True One, the Knower of things unseen. Nothing whatsoever shall prevent these **TONGUES** from magnifying their Creator. Through them, all created things shall arise to glorify the Lord of names and to bear witness that there is none other God save Me, the All-Powerful, the Most-Glorious, the Best-Beloved. Nor shall those who make mention of Me **SPEAK** aught unless they be inspired by this**TONGUE** from its lofty station. Few, however, are they who understand! No **TONGUE** is there that speaketh not the praises of its Lord and maketh not mention of His Name. Amongst the people, however, are those who understand and utter praises, and those who utter praises, yet understand not."
-Baha'u'llah, Surih of the Temple 19-21
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Re: Devastating stampede
Mark A. Foster wrote:
Rich,
At 05:02 PM 9/5/2005, you wrote:
We're not sociologists, we're Baha'is and we go by the Baha'i definitions of Covenent Breakers and their followers.
Not everyone on this list is a Baha'i. This is also not a "Baha'i" list. It is a Baha'i studies list. That would include sociological, historical, economic, psychological, etc. approaches to the study of the Baha'i Faith.
I wouldn't. The Faith, not the university, is the arbiter here.
Again, this is a Baha'i studies list. "The Faith" is also not a monolith. Baha'is have different perspectives. Some of those perspectives are academic.
The stance on these groups, from the standpoint of the Faith should be taken from the writings of the Central Figures of the Faith and the administration, not from Durkheim and Strauss, or whoever the pet theorist in sociology is these days.
On this list, perspectives from Durkheim, Strauss, and even Freud are welcome.
The followers are not considered covenant breakers, true, they are also not considered Baha'is.
They are not considered Baha'is by the Universal House of Justice. However, if they define themselves as Baha'is, as a sociologist, I have to recognize them as such.
Mark,
My point was that the Gilberto made a statement about how Baha'is
react to or regard covenant breakers. While I can respect your
methodology, I think in the case given I think it muddied the picture
rather than making it clearer.
I agree that Durkheim, straus, and Frued are welcome here, when
they are to the point. I just don't think your comment was to the
point. I don't mean that to sound judgemental, and looking back I did
sound so. I apologize for that. I guess, what troubles me is that
appears that there is a willingness to ignore or shuffle off the Faith
when we put on our academic hats. Non Baha'is on the list, at least to
me, seem to be asking for Baha'i responses not academic responses.
While I believe that scholarship can indeed help the Faith, it's job is
to help us understand the teachings, not relace them. I with Aquinas,
where Revelation and Reason collide, Revelation is correct.
Again, I'm sorry if I offended you Mark, I hold you in the greatest
respect. I just don't agree with you here.
Rich
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Re: Self-Definition
Mark A. Foster wrote:
I define myself differently in different contexts. Why are you being so judgmental? I don't recall you ever having expressed yourself in this way.
I guess I don't. When I'm treating patients, I'm a Baha'i.
Ian Semple, in a talk on obedience, discussed the collaborater who says he had no choice but to betray others, or he would have been killed. Semple says he could have chosen to die.
I don't see how that relates to me.
Only in that you said you had no choice. I was this example to
illustrate that you did have a choice and you made it.
I don't believe that that's true, Mark, and your original answer was ambiguous. I think it good to keep in mind that when non-Baha'is raise issues on this list they are expecting Baha'i answers not sociological answers.
This is a Baha'i studies list, not a Baha'i list. In any event, I think that my responses have reflected my views both as a sociologist and as a Baha'i.
Fair enough, Then, I respectfully disagree with you.
The Baha'i Faith is the eternal faith of God, not a sociological organization in the sense that it is being defended and discussed in this issues.
In grad school I wrote a paper on healthcare views in the Baha'i Faith from a nursing and anthropological perspective and I kept that perspective, but I didn't kid myself that it had anything to do with the Faith from it's own perspective.
Is there any single Baha'i perspective on most issues? I don't think so.
There are the teachings and the administrative rules on who isn't and who is a Baha'i. Once again, I go back to my stance that Non-Baha'is are asking for a Baha;i answer. As a student of Comparative Religion, if you were to ask if if there were sects in the Faith, I'd have to say yes. I would also answer that a Baha'i I don't accept them as sects. Otherwise it's all too easy for someone to go away thinking the Baha'is accept Covenant breakers as Baha'is. I would also add that as an academic foloks will often look you as an expert and accept your answer as the correct answer, not as a "perspective".
Once again, I'm not trying to fight with you, beleive what you want.
Rich
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Re: Devastating stampede
Susan Maneck wrote: I guess from a Baha'i perspective we wouldn't see this as splinter Baha'i groups, because from our point of view they stopped being Baha'is at the moment they broke off from any point of the administrative order. Dear Rich, I'm not sure that is true. In recent years the Universal House of Justice has chosen to remove some people from the rolls rather than declare them Covenant breakers. The rationale was that they had determined they weren't really Baha'is and thus bound by the Covennat. warmest, Susan Susan, But nontheless, they are no longer considered Baha'is, right? Rich The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Devastating stampede
On 9/9/05, Rich Ater [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My point was that the Gilberto made a statement about how Baha'is react to or regard covenant breakers. While I can respect your methodology, I think in the case given I think it muddied the picture rather than making it clearer. I don't think Mark's comments did that. I don't think there was any difficulty seperating Mark-with-a-Bahai-hat and Mark-with-a-sociologist-hat. He's been fairly clear on the distinction. Peace Gilberto -- There are no poets The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Devastating stampede
Gilberto Simpson wrote:
On 9/9/05, Rich Ater [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
My point was that the Gilberto made a statement about how Baha'is react
to or regard covenant breakers. While I can respect your methodology, I
think in the case given I think it muddied the picture rather than making it
clearer.
I don't think Mark's comments did that. I don't think there was any
difficulty seperating Mark-with-a-Bahai-hat and
Mark-with-a-sociologist-hat. He's been fairly clear on the
distinction.
Peace
Gilberto
Dear All,
Apparently I misunderstood something here. I'll back out of this
conversation now. Apologies to all, especially Mark.
Rich
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Re: Self-Definition
Rich Ater [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Rich,
Could you wrap your text? Your posts have become very hard to read since they have LOOONG lines of text, way tooo long.
Thanks, Scott
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As human beings, we are endowed with freedom of choice, and we cannot shuffle off our responsibility upon the shoulders of God or nature. We must shoulder it ourselves. It is our responsibility. Arnold J. Toynbee
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Re: Devastating stampede
Rich Ater [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Susan Maneck wrote:"I guess from a Baha'i perspective we wouldn't see this as splinterBaha'i groups, because from our point of view they stopped being Baha'isat the moment they broke off from any point of the administrative order."Dear Rich,I'm not sure that is true. In recent years the Universal House of Justicehas chosen to remove some people from the rolls rather than declare themCovenant breakers. The rationale was that they had determined they weren'treally Baha'is and thus bound by the Covennat.warmest, Susan Susan,But nontheless, they are no longer considered Baha'is, right?Rich
The answer is "yes" and "no". They are not considered Baha`i's by the administrative order. In that sense the administrative order does not define them as Baha`i's. This is to their advantage, since if they were considered and defined as "covenant breakers", this might cause hardship to friends and family who would then have to consider them covenant-breakers.
As to what they consider themselves, the administrative order has "naught to say". They can call themselves Baha`i all they wish, I say "okay" but they are not Baha`i's in good standing or any standing at all. See they define themselves one way - to do so they have a perfect right. I consider them another way, and I have a perfect right.
Regards,
Scott The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you.__You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Unsubscribe: send a blank email to
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As human beings, we are endowed with freedom of choice, and we cannot shuffle off our responsibility upon the shoulders of God or nature. We must shoulder it ourselves. It is our responsibility. Arnold J. Toynbee
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Re: Devastating stampede
I'm not sure that is true. In recent years the Universal House of Justicehas chosen to remove some people from the rolls rather than declare themCovenant breakers. The rationale was that they had determined they weren'treally Baha'is and thus bound by the Covennat.warmest, Susan Susan,But nontheless, they are no longer considered Baha'is, right?
Dear Rich,
My point is that if they *had* been considered Baha'is they would have been declared Covenant breakers. That acknowledges that Covenant breakers are indeed Baha'is in some sense of the word.
warmest, Susan
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More on eScribe
Another message from Scott at eScribe: I can almost promise you it will be back. I depend on it for my own mailing lists too. Just a matter of time. I'm just hoping it doesn't require a brand new server, but even that won't stop it. Thanks for the support! Via moderna, Mark A. Foster . http://markfoster.net ... since [a] word is said to be common, it can be called a universal. - Wm. of Ockham, Summa Logicae, part I Structurization Tech: http://tech.structurization.com The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: More on eScribe
Dear Mark,
If it does come back, I wonder if there isn't some way to do a back up, so we don't lose the archives if it ever goes down again?
warmest, Susan -Original Message-From: Mark A. Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.eduSent: Fri, 09 Sep 2005 21:54:39 -0500Subject: More on eScribe
Another message from Scott at eScribe:
I can almost promise you it will be back. I depend on it for my own mailing
lists too. Just a matter of time. I'm just hoping it doesn't require a brand new
server, but even that won't stop it.
Thanks for the support!
Via moderna, Mark A. Foster . http://markfoster.net
... since [a] word is said to be common, it can be called
a universal. - Wm. of Ockham, Summa Logicae, part I
Structurization Tech: http://tech.structurization.com
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Re: Devastating stampede
" Non Baha'is on the list, at least to me, seem to be asking for Baha'i responses not academic responses. While I believe that scholarship can indeed help the Faith, it's job is to help us understand the teachings, not relace them."
Dear Rich,
There are other lists such as soc.religion.bahai which exist for that purpose. Those non-Baha'is who have been invited to participate here are those we felt could benefit from 'academic responses.'
"I with Aquinas, where Revelation and Reason collide, Revelation is correct."
Only this Revelation insists that religion becomes superstition when it discards reason.
warmest, Susan
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Re: Devastating stampede
Rich, At 08:03 PM 9/9/2005, you wrote: My point was that the Gilberto made a statement about how Baha'is react to or regard covenant breakers. While I can respect your methodology, I think in the case given I think it muddied the picture rather than making it clearer. It is clear that Baha'is, out of obedience to the Universal House of Justice, do not associate with Covenant-breakers. In fact, I mentioned that point in one of my postings. As a Baha'i, I do not consider such people to be Baha'is. However, both as a sociologist and an individual, I take a person's religious identity on face value. IMO, this approach both affirms the Baha'i Covenant and respects the freedom of conscience of those with whom I may personally disagree. I guess, what troubles me is that appears that there is a willingness to ignore or shuffle off the Faith when we put on our academic hats. I don't ignore either hat. However, I believe that subjects can be simultaneously approached from different perspectives. Non Baha'is on the list, at least to me, seem to be asking for Baha'i responses not academic responses. While I believe that scholarship can indeed help the Faith, it's job is to help us understand the teachings, not relace them. I with Aquinas, where Revelation and Reason collide, Revelation is correct. IMO, contradictory standpoints can be correct - even when they collide (or seem to). Again, I'm sorry if I offended you Mark, I hold you in the greatest respect. I just don't agree with you here. Thanks for saying that. Via moderna, Mark A. Foster . http://markfoster.net ... since [a] word is said to be common, it can be called a universal. - Wm. of Ockham, Summa Logicae, part I Structurization Tech: http://tech.structurization.com The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Self-Definition
Rich, At 08:11 PM 9/9/2005, you wrote: I guess I don't. When I'm treating patients, I'm a Baha'i. I am always a Baha'i, always a sociologist, and always an individual. I have no problem simultaneously seeing an issue from various perspectives associated with each of these statuses. Only in that you said you had no choice. I was this example to illustrate that you did have a choice and you made it. My point was that, as a sociologist of religion, I have no choice but to acknowledge a person's religious identity. Although I am not a Weberian, I don't see how I can do sociology without having at least a minimal degree of Verstehen (to understand in Weber's sense of empathic understanding). I wrote: This is a Baha'i studies list, not a Baha'i list. In any event, I think that my responses have reflected my views both as a sociologist and as a Baha'i. You replied: Fair enough, Then, I respectfully disagree with you. Are you disagreeing that this is a Baha'i studies, not a Baha'i, list? Via moderna, Mark A. Foster . http://markfoster.net ... since [a] word is said to be common, it can be called a universal. - Wm. of Ockham, Summa Logicae, part I Structurization Tech: http://tech.structurization.com The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: More on eScribe
Susan, At 09:59 PM 9/9/2005, you wrote: If it does come back, I wonder if there isn't some way to do a back up, so we don't lose the archives if it ever goes down again? Unfortunately, they say on the site *not* to do that. Obviously, they are concerned about the strain on the server. Via moderna, Mark A. Foster . http://markfoster.net ... since [a] word is said to be common, it can be called a universal. - Wm. of Ockham, Summa Logicae, part I Structurization Tech: http://tech.structurization.com The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
