Re: Ablutions

[Matt Haase]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Yes, I respect most religions, even some of the nature-based quasi Pagan
ones.




On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 10:26 PM,  wrote:

> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
>
>
> I am asking you, Gilberto, or Mat Haas.
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> Iskandar
>
>
>
> Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry®
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Gilberto Simpson 
>  Sender: Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2010
> 22:24:40
> To: Baha'i Studies
> Reply-To: "Baha'i Studies" 
> Subject: Re: Ablutions
>
> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
> Who are you asking?
>
> On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 10:20 PM,   wrote:
> > The Baha'i Studies Listserv
> >
> >
> >
> > Do you have respect for Islam the same way that you have respect for
> Christianity, Buddhism and the Baha'i Faith?
> >
> > Do you have respect for Buddhism? Or, for the Baha'i Faith?
> >
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > Iskandar
> >
> >
> >
> > Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry®
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Gilberto Simpson 
> > Sender: Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2010
> 22:15:29
> > To: Baha'i Studies
> > Reply-To: "Baha'i Studies" 
> > Subject: Re: Ablutions
> >
> > The Baha'i Studies Listserv
> > I think that what a Bahai means by "respect Islam, honor the Prophet
> > and regard the Quran as the word of God" is very very different from
> > what a Muslim means by "respect Islam, honor the Prophet and regard
> > the Quran as the word of God".
> >
> > On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 10:07 PM, Susan Maneck 
> wrote:
> >> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
> >>> I think part of it is what Susan said. Some people have actually
> >>> experienced real persecution at the hands of Muslims and it has an
> >>> effect. I think another part of it is built into Bahai theology and if
> >>> there were nothing wrong with Islam and Muslims then there wouldn't be
> >>> anything special about being Bahai.
> >>
> >> Gilberto,
> >>
> >> It is *because* I am a Baha'i that I respect Islam, honor the Prophet
> >> and regard the Qu'ran as the Word of God. I would certainly not have
> >> done those things I had remained a Christian.
> >>
> >> warmest, Susan
> >>
> >>__
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> >>
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Re: Ablutions - inter-marriage

[Susan Maneck]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
> So basically even marriages to other Christians are questionable and
> require special permission.

Yes, they do require special permission, but that is easier and easier
to get these days.

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Re: Ablutions

[iskandar.hai]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv


I am asking you, Gilberto, or Mat Haas. 


Best regards, 

Iskandar 



Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry®

-Original Message-
From: Gilberto Simpson 
Sender: Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 22:24:40 
To: Baha'i Studies
Reply-To: "Baha'i Studies" 
Subject: Re: Ablutions

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Who are you asking?

On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 10:20 PM,   wrote:
> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
>
>
>
> Do you have respect for Islam the same way that you have respect for 
> Christianity, Buddhism and the Baha'i Faith?
>
> Do you have respect for Buddhism? Or, for the Baha'i Faith?
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> Iskandar
>
>
>
> Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry®
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Gilberto Simpson 
> Sender: Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 22:15:29
> To: Baha'i Studies
> Reply-To: "Baha'i Studies" 
> Subject: Re: Ablutions
>
> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
> I think that what a Bahai means by "respect Islam, honor the Prophet
> and regard the Quran as the word of God" is very very different from
> what a Muslim means by "respect Islam, honor the Prophet and regard
> the Quran as the word of God".
>
> On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 10:07 PM, Susan Maneck  wrote:
>> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
>>> I think part of it is what Susan said. Some people have actually
>>> experienced real persecution at the hands of Muslims and it has an
>>> effect. I think another part of it is built into Bahai theology and if
>>> there were nothing wrong with Islam and Muslims then there wouldn't be
>>> anything special about being Bahai.
>>
>> Gilberto,
>>
>> It is *because* I am a Baha'i that I respect Islam, honor the Prophet
>> and regard the Qu'ran as the Word of God. I would certainly not have
>> done those things I had remained a Christian.
>>
>> warmest, Susan
>>
>>__
>> You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:gilberto.simp...@gmail.com
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>> Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net
>> New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
>>
>
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>
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Re: Ablutions

[Gilberto Simpson]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Who are you asking?

On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 10:20 PM,   wrote:
> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
>
>
>
> Do you have respect for Islam the same way that you have respect for 
> Christianity, Buddhism and the Baha'i Faith?
>
> Do you have respect for Buddhism? Or, for the Baha'i Faith?
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> Iskandar
>
>
>
> Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry®
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Gilberto Simpson 
> Sender: Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 22:15:29
> To: Baha'i Studies
> Reply-To: "Baha'i Studies" 
> Subject: Re: Ablutions
>
> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
> I think that what a Bahai means by "respect Islam, honor the Prophet
> and regard the Quran as the word of God" is very very different from
> what a Muslim means by "respect Islam, honor the Prophet and regard
> the Quran as the word of God".
>
> On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 10:07 PM, Susan Maneck  wrote:
>> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
>>> I think part of it is what Susan said. Some people have actually
>>> experienced real persecution at the hands of Muslims and it has an
>>> effect. I think another part of it is built into Bahai theology and if
>>> there were nothing wrong with Islam and Muslims then there wouldn't be
>>> anything special about being Bahai.
>>
>> Gilberto,
>>
>> It is *because* I am a Baha'i that I respect Islam, honor the Prophet
>> and regard the Qu'ran as the Word of God. I would certainly not have
>> done those things I had remained a Christian.
>>
>> warmest, Susan
>>
>> __
>> You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:gilberto.simp...@gmail.com
>> Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-510900-684...@list.jccc.edu
>> Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu
>> Or subscribe: 
>> http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st
>> Baha'i Studies is available through the following:
>> Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
>> Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st
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>> Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net
>> New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
>>
>
> __
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>
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Re: Ablutions - inter-marriage

[Gilberto Simpson]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
The section you are talking about is related to non-Catholics who are
still Christian.

In Pope Benedict's text:

Art. 5. The text of can. 1124 of the Code of Canon Law is modified as follows:

"Marriage between two baptized persons, one of whom was baptized in
the Catholic Church or received into it after baptism, and the other a
member of a Church or ecclesial community not in full communion with
the Catholic Church, cannot be celebrated without the express
permission of the competent authority".

So basically even marriages to other Christians are questionable and
require special permission. And so marriages with non-Christians are
really exceptional (at least in principle).

On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 10:15 PM, Susan Maneck  wrote:
> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
> If you read further down in the canon law you would have seen it is
> not so cut-and-dried.
>
> Further on it states how dispensations can be given for such marriages:
>
> Can.  1125 The local ordinary can grant a permission of this kind if
> there is a just and reasonable cause. He is not to grant it unless the
> following conditions have been fulfilled:
>
> 1/ the Catholic party is to declare that he or she is prepared to
> remove dangers of defecting from the faith and is to make a sincere
> promise to do all in his or her power so that all offspring are
> baptized and brought up in the Catholic Church;
>
> 2/ the other party is to be informed at an appropriate time about the
> promises which the Catholic party is to make, in such a way that it is
> certain that he or she is truly aware of the promise and obligation of
> the Catholic party;
>
> 3/ both parties are to be instructed about the purposes and essential
> properties of marriage which neither of the contracting parties is to
> exclude.
>
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>

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Re: Ablutions

[iskandar.hai]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv



Do you have respect for Islam the same way that you have respect for 
Christianity, Buddhism and the Baha'i Faith? 

Do you have respect for Buddhism? Or, for the Baha'i Faith?  


Best regards, 

Iskandar 



Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry®

-Original Message-
From: Gilberto Simpson 
Sender: Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 22:15:29 
To: Baha'i Studies
Reply-To: "Baha'i Studies" 
Subject: Re: Ablutions

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
I think that what a Bahai means by "respect Islam, honor the Prophet
and regard the Quran as the word of God" is very very different from
what a Muslim means by "respect Islam, honor the Prophet and regard
the Quran as the word of God".

On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 10:07 PM, Susan Maneck  wrote:
> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
>> I think part of it is what Susan said. Some people have actually
>> experienced real persecution at the hands of Muslims and it has an
>> effect. I think another part of it is built into Bahai theology and if
>> there were nothing wrong with Islam and Muslims then there wouldn't be
>> anything special about being Bahai.
>
> Gilberto,
>
> It is *because* I am a Baha'i that I respect Islam, honor the Prophet
> and regard the Qu'ran as the Word of God. I would certainly not have
> done those things I had remained a Christian.
>
> warmest, Susan
>
> __
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>

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Re: Ablutions - where?

[Susan Maneck]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
> The Ottomans and Safavids fought with one another over territory.
> Baghdad for instance changed hands back and forth several times.

Yes, but most of the time it was under Ottoman control.

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Re: Ablutions

[Susan Maneck]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
> I think that what a Bahai means by "respect Islam, honor the Prophet
> and regard the Quran as the word of God" is very very different from
> what a Muslim means by "respect Islam, honor the Prophet and regard
> the Quran as the word of God".

Whatever.

The fact remains I would have none of those things were I still a Christian.

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Re: Ablutions

[Gilberto Simpson]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
I think that what a Bahai means by "respect Islam, honor the Prophet
and regard the Quran as the word of God" is very very different from
what a Muslim means by "respect Islam, honor the Prophet and regard
the Quran as the word of God".

On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 10:07 PM, Susan Maneck  wrote:
> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
>> I think part of it is what Susan said. Some people have actually
>> experienced real persecution at the hands of Muslims and it has an
>> effect. I think another part of it is built into Bahai theology and if
>> there were nothing wrong with Islam and Muslims then there wouldn't be
>> anything special about being Bahai.
>
> Gilberto,
>
> It is *because* I am a Baha'i that I respect Islam, honor the Prophet
> and regard the Qu'ran as the Word of God. I would certainly not have
> done those things I had remained a Christian.
>
> warmest, Susan
>
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Re: Ablutions - inter-marriage

[Susan Maneck]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
If you read further down in the canon law you would have seen it is
not so cut-and-dried.

Further on it states how dispensations can be given for such marriages:

Can.  1125 The local ordinary can grant a permission of this kind if
there is a just and reasonable cause. He is not to grant it unless the
following conditions have been fulfilled:

1/ the Catholic party is to declare that he or she is prepared to
remove dangers of defecting from the faith and is to make a sincere
promise to do all in his or her power so that all offspring are
baptized and brought up in the Catholic Church;

2/ the other party is to be informed at an appropriate time about the
promises which the Catholic party is to make, in such a way that it is
certain that he or she is truly aware of the promise and obligation of
the Catholic party;

3/ both parties are to be instructed about the purposes and essential
properties of marriage which neither of the contracting parties is to
exclude.

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Re: Ablutions - where?

[Gilberto Simpson]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
The Ottomans and Safavids fought with one another over territory.
Baghdad for instance changed hands back and forth several times.

On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 10:05 PM,   wrote:
> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
>
>
> What is now Iraq was then part of the Ottoman empire, in the 16th and 17th 
> and 18th and 19th centuries.
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> Iskandar
>
>
>
>
> Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry®
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Gilberto Simpson 
> Sender: Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 22:00:15
> To: Baha'i Studies
> Reply-To: "Baha'i Studies" 
> Subject: Re: Ablutions - where?
>
> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
> Susan's references were talking about how Jews or other non-Muslims
> were treated by the Safavids in terms of ritual purity in the 1500s.
> And at that time much of the Safavid empire overlapped with what is
> now Iraq.
>
> On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 9:13 PM,   wrote:
>> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
>>
>>
>> I don't think so. I think Iraq was part of the Ottoman Empire until the 
>> early 1920's or so.
>>
>>
>> Best regards,
>> Iskandar
>>
>>
>>
>> Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry®
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Gilberto Simpson 
>> Sender: Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 21:06:47
>> To: Baha'i Studies
>> Reply-To: "Baha'i Studies" 
>> Subject: Re: Ablutions - where?
>>
>> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
>> On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 4:29 PM, Susan Maneck  wrote:
>>> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 Sure. And that particular interpretation was limited to a particular
 time and a particular place in a particular culture. And other Muslims
 in most other places in most other times interpreted those rules
 differently. So that suggest, instead of blaming all Muslims
 everywhere you should focus on what factors in Safavid society led
 them to set up a system which discriminated against people in those
 particular ways.
>>>
>>> As I indicated, it was imported from the Shi'ite 'ulama in Iraq and
>>> was not therefore specifically Iranian.
>>>
>> I think in the period you were talking about Iraq wasn't even a
>> country yet  and the region was dominated by the Safavids.
>>
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Re: Ablutions - where?

[Susan Maneck]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
> I think in the period you were talking about Iraq wasn't even a
> country yet  and the region was dominated by the Safavids.

It was always a country. What it wasn't was a nation-state. Iraq was
only under the control of the Safavids for short periods. For the most
part it was controlled by the Ottomans. If you know anything about
Iranian history you will know how little control the Safavids were
able to exercise over the clerics who were imported from Iraq.

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Re: Ablutions

[Susan Maneck]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
> I think part of it is what Susan said. Some people have actually
> experienced real persecution at the hands of Muslims and it has an
> effect. I think another part of it is built into Bahai theology and if
> there were nothing wrong with Islam and Muslims then there wouldn't be
> anything special about being Bahai.

Gilberto,

It is *because* I am a Baha'i that I respect Islam, honor the Prophet
and regard the Qu'ran as the Word of God. I would certainly not have
done those things I had remained a Christian.

warmest, Susan

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Re: Ablutions - where?

[iskandar.hai]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv


What is now Iraq was then part of the Ottoman empire, in the 16th and 17th and 
18th and 19th centuries. 


Best regards, 

Iskandar 




Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry®

-Original Message-
From: Gilberto Simpson 
Sender: Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 22:00:15 
To: Baha'i Studies
Reply-To: "Baha'i Studies" 
Subject: Re: Ablutions - where?

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Susan's references were talking about how Jews or other non-Muslims
were treated by the Safavids in terms of ritual purity in the 1500s.
And at that time much of the Safavid empire overlapped with what is
now Iraq.

On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 9:13 PM,   wrote:
> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
>
>
> I don't think so. I think Iraq was part of the Ottoman Empire until the early 
> 1920's or so.
>
>
> Best regards,
> Iskandar
>
>
>
> Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry®
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Gilberto Simpson 
> Sender: Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 21:06:47
> To: Baha'i Studies
> Reply-To: "Baha'i Studies" 
> Subject: Re: Ablutions - where?
>
> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
> On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 4:29 PM, Susan Maneck  wrote:
>> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
>>> Sure. And that particular interpretation was limited to a particular
>>> time and a particular place in a particular culture. And other Muslims
>>> in most other places in most other times interpreted those rules
>>> differently. So that suggest, instead of blaming all Muslims
>>> everywhere you should focus on what factors in Safavid society led
>>> them to set up a system which discriminated against people in those
>>> particular ways.
>>
>> As I indicated, it was imported from the Shi'ite 'ulama in Iraq and
>> was not therefore specifically Iranian.
>>
> I think in the period you were talking about Iraq wasn't even a
> country yet  and the region was dominated by the Safavids.
>
>__
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Re: Ablutions

[Susan Maneck]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 8:43 PM, Gilberto Simpson
 wrote:
> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
> Anyone who used to be a member of religion A but isn't anymore is an
> apostate from religion A. So Nima is an apostate from the Bahai faith.
> If I remember correctly you are an apostate from Christianity. Spinoza
> was arguably an apostate from Judaism. And if a person was Muslim at
> one point but is no longer Muslim now then they are an apostate from
> Islam. That';s just what the word means.
>
> Similarly, in terms of Islamic law, kaffir means "non-Muslim".

> Calling a Bahai an apostate or a kaffir either applies or doesn't. The
> important thing isn't the term. It is the treatment (which is the
> point you ignored from my response).

Hardly, I pointed out that apostasy carried the death penalty.

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Re: Ablutions - where?

[Gilberto Simpson]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Susan's references were talking about how Jews or other non-Muslims
were treated by the Safavids in terms of ritual purity in the 1500s.
And at that time much of the Safavid empire overlapped with what is
now Iraq.

On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 9:13 PM,   wrote:
> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
>
>
> I don't think so. I think Iraq was part of the Ottoman Empire until the early 
> 1920's or so.
>
>
> Best regards,
> Iskandar
>
>
>
> Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry®
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Gilberto Simpson 
> Sender: Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 21:06:47
> To: Baha'i Studies
> Reply-To: "Baha'i Studies" 
> Subject: Re: Ablutions - where?
>
> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
> On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 4:29 PM, Susan Maneck  wrote:
>> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
>>> Sure. And that particular interpretation was limited to a particular
>>> time and a particular place in a particular culture. And other Muslims
>>> in most other places in most other times interpreted those rules
>>> differently. So that suggest, instead of blaming all Muslims
>>> everywhere you should focus on what factors in Safavid society led
>>> them to set up a system which discriminated against people in those
>>> particular ways.
>>
>> As I indicated, it was imported from the Shi'ite 'ulama in Iraq and
>> was not therefore specifically Iranian.
>>
> I think in the period you were talking about Iraq wasn't even a
> country yet  and the region was dominated by the Safavids.
>
> __
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Re: Ablutions

[iskandar.hai]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv



The Baha'i concept of progressive Revelation does not mean that there is 
anything wrong with Islam. Baha'is believe Islam to be a Divinely ordained 
religion and the Quran to be the word of God. 

As I said, shelf life is a different story. 

Baha'is are supposed  to defend and vindicate the truth and validity of Islam 
as `Abdu'l-Baha Himself did when He was travelling through the West. 


Best regards, 

Iskandar 





Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry®

-Original Message-
From: Gilberto Simpson 
Sender: Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 21:47:48 
To: Baha'i Studies
Reply-To: "Baha'i Studies" 
Subject: Re: Ablutions

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
I think part of it is what Susan said. Some people have actually
experienced real persecution at the hands of Muslims and it has an
effect. I think another part of it is built into Bahai theology and if
there were nothing wrong with Islam and Muslims then there wouldn't be
anything special about being Bahai.

On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 4:33 PM, Matt Haase  wrote:
> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
>
>
> I'm concerned that you are so eager to lump all Muslims together as bad
> people who hate Baha'is, when you are talking to two simultaneously who
> don't. Do you want Muslims to hate you or something?
>
>
> On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 8:01 AM, Iskandar Hai, M.D. 
> wrote:
>>
>> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
>> Well, I seriously doubt if the Quran verse 9:28 was meant to be understood
>> spiritually back then at that time when it was revealed in early 7th century
>> because it is reassuring the early Muslims not to worry about the loss of
>> trade and business with the Meccans. This is manifestly obvious. But it
>> would be nice if it is understood and read metaphorically nowadays by all
>> Muslims regarding Baha'is or regarding folks who don't believe in God, or
>> people who don't believe in any religion, or Buddhists or Hindus, etc. Alas,
>> that's not the case.
>>
>>
>> Best regards
>> Iskandar
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Sent from my iPod
>>
>> On Jun 23, 2010, at 7:04 AM, Gilberto Simpson 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
>>> Susan, I don't think you understood what I said.
>>>
>>> On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 1:57 AM, Susan Maneck  wrote:

 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
>
> I would definitely read that ayat spiritually. (And it is my
> understanding that that is the typical Hanafi view at least).
>>>
 I would too. The issue here was clearly profaning a holy site.
>>>
>>> No. The verse in question is:
>>> [Yusufali 9:28] O ye who believe! Truly the Pagans are unclean; so let
>>> them not, after this year of theirs, approach the Sacred Mosque. And
>>> if ye fear poverty, soon will Allah enrich you, if He wills, out of
>>> His bounty, for Allah is All-knowing, All-wise.
>>>
>>> And what I'm saying is that in the Hanafi view (note that the Hanafis
>>> are the most populous interpretation of Sunni Islam... the Ottomans
>>> and the Mughals were Hanafi), in the above verse, Pagans are being
>>> described as unclean in a spiritual sense. NOT in a physical sense and
>>> not in a sense that relates to laws about najas (ritual impurity) and
>>> should not be used to justify a social system where non-Muslims have
>>> cooties.
>>>
>>>
 Personally  Muslims do not offend me by not letting me go to Mecca any
 more than Zoroastrians offend me by not letting me into their Fire
 Temples. However, when a Jew or a Zoroastrian can't go out when it is
 raining for fear he will rub up against a Muslim and pollute them,
 that is another question.
>>>
>>> Sure. And that particular interpretation was limited to a particular
>>> time and a particular place in a particular culture. And other Muslims
>>> in most other places in most other times interpreted those rules
>>> differently. So that suggest, instead of blaming all Muslims
>>> everywhere you should focus on what factors in Safavid society led
>>> them to set up a system which discriminated against people in those
>>> particular ways.
>>>
  (And do
>
> you think that Bahais count as Idolaters?)

 The question really is how do Muslims regard us? As you know, this
 verse came to be applied to all non-Muslims even the Ahl-i Kitab.
>>>
>>> The Saudis apply the law that way but there are definitely ulema which
>>> don't interpret the Quran that way and 1) maintain the distinction
>>> between Pagans and People of the Book (Ahl al-Kitab) and 2) would even
>>> say it is halal for straight up Pagans to visit as long as they don't
>>> stay.(this is mentioned in one of the links I provided elsewhere in
>>> this thread)
>>>
  So if you want to shake
>
> hands I'm not going to treat you like najas. And if you serve some
> good vegetarian food or seafood (which is what I eat for myself) then
> I'd be happy to partake.

 As would most Muslims living in the US. It is only in predominantly
 Muslim countries that we are 

Re: Ablutions

[iskandar.hai]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv


So, according to Islamic Shari`ah law, what is the treatment that a Muslim 
receives when s/he leaves Islam?

Best regards, 
Iskandar 



Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry®

-Original Message-
From: Gilberto Simpson 
Sender: Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 21:43:09 
To: Baha'i Studies
Reply-To: "Baha'i Studies" 
Subject: Re: Ablutions

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Anyone who used to be a member of religion A but isn't anymore is an
apostate from religion A. So Nima is an apostate from the Bahai faith.
If I remember correctly you are an apostate from Christianity. Spinoza
was arguably an apostate from Judaism. And if a person was Muslim at
one point but is no longer Muslim now then they are an apostate from
Islam. That';s just what the word means.

Similarly, in terms of Islamic law, kaffir means "non-Muslim".

Calling a Bahai an apostate or a kaffir either applies or doesn't. The
important thing isn't the term. It is the treatment (which is the
point you ignored from my response).

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Re: Ablutions

[Gilberto Simpson]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
I think part of it is what Susan said. Some people have actually
experienced real persecution at the hands of Muslims and it has an
effect. I think another part of it is built into Bahai theology and if
there were nothing wrong with Islam and Muslims then there wouldn't be
anything special about being Bahai.

On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 4:33 PM, Matt Haase  wrote:
> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
>
>
> I'm concerned that you are so eager to lump all Muslims together as bad
> people who hate Baha'is, when you are talking to two simultaneously who
> don't. Do you want Muslims to hate you or something?
>
>
> On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 8:01 AM, Iskandar Hai, M.D. 
> wrote:
>>
>> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
>> Well, I seriously doubt if the Quran verse 9:28 was meant to be understood
>> spiritually back then at that time when it was revealed in early 7th century
>> because it is reassuring the early Muslims not to worry about the loss of
>> trade and business with the Meccans. This is manifestly obvious. But it
>> would be nice if it is understood and read metaphorically nowadays by all
>> Muslims regarding Baha'is or regarding folks who don't believe in God, or
>> people who don't believe in any religion, or Buddhists or Hindus, etc. Alas,
>> that's not the case.
>>
>>
>> Best regards
>> Iskandar
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Sent from my iPod
>>
>> On Jun 23, 2010, at 7:04 AM, Gilberto Simpson 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
>>> Susan, I don't think you understood what I said.
>>>
>>> On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 1:57 AM, Susan Maneck  wrote:

 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
>
> I would definitely read that ayat spiritually. (And it is my
> understanding that that is the typical Hanafi view at least).
>>>
 I would too. The issue here was clearly profaning a holy site.
>>>
>>> No. The verse in question is:
>>> [Yusufali 9:28] O ye who believe! Truly the Pagans are unclean; so let
>>> them not, after this year of theirs, approach the Sacred Mosque. And
>>> if ye fear poverty, soon will Allah enrich you, if He wills, out of
>>> His bounty, for Allah is All-knowing, All-wise.
>>>
>>> And what I'm saying is that in the Hanafi view (note that the Hanafis
>>> are the most populous interpretation of Sunni Islam... the Ottomans
>>> and the Mughals were Hanafi), in the above verse, Pagans are being
>>> described as unclean in a spiritual sense. NOT in a physical sense and
>>> not in a sense that relates to laws about najas (ritual impurity) and
>>> should not be used to justify a social system where non-Muslims have
>>> cooties.
>>>
>>>
 Personally  Muslims do not offend me by not letting me go to Mecca any
 more than Zoroastrians offend me by not letting me into their Fire
 Temples. However, when a Jew or a Zoroastrian can't go out when it is
 raining for fear he will rub up against a Muslim and pollute them,
 that is another question.
>>>
>>> Sure. And that particular interpretation was limited to a particular
>>> time and a particular place in a particular culture. And other Muslims
>>> in most other places in most other times interpreted those rules
>>> differently. So that suggest, instead of blaming all Muslims
>>> everywhere you should focus on what factors in Safavid society led
>>> them to set up a system which discriminated against people in those
>>> particular ways.
>>>
  (And do
>
> you think that Bahais count as Idolaters?)

 The question really is how do Muslims regard us? As you know, this
 verse came to be applied to all non-Muslims even the Ahl-i Kitab.
>>>
>>> The Saudis apply the law that way but there are definitely ulema which
>>> don't interpret the Quran that way and 1) maintain the distinction
>>> between Pagans and People of the Book (Ahl al-Kitab) and 2) would even
>>> say it is halal for straight up Pagans to visit as long as they don't
>>> stay.(this is mentioned in one of the links I provided elsewhere in
>>> this thread)
>>>
  So if you want to shake
>
> hands I'm not going to treat you like najas. And if you serve some
> good vegetarian food or seafood (which is what I eat for myself) then
> I'd be happy to partake.

 As would most Muslims living in the US. It is only in predominantly
 Muslim countries that we are likely to face discrimination.
>>>
>>> In terms of the particular religious question under discussion (ritual
>>> impurity) this is an interpretation limited primarily to Iran, not the
>>> Muslim world as a whole.
>>>
  Marriage is a tricky question. Officially,
>
> neither Christianity nor Judaism really approve of intermarriage.

 So
>
> Islam is actually more inclusive by allowing marriage with People of
> the Book. (And then the question is whether Bahais count under that
> category)
>>>
 As you know Christianity is pretty broad. Even Catholics are allowed
 to intermarry now. It is mostly only evangelicals disapprove,

Re: Ablutions

[Gilberto Simpson]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Anyone who used to be a member of religion A but isn't anymore is an
apostate from religion A. So Nima is an apostate from the Bahai faith.
If I remember correctly you are an apostate from Christianity. Spinoza
was arguably an apostate from Judaism. And if a person was Muslim at
one point but is no longer Muslim now then they are an apostate from
Islam. That';s just what the word means.

Similarly, in terms of Islamic law, kaffir means "non-Muslim".

Calling a Bahai an apostate or a kaffir either applies or doesn't. The
important thing isn't the term. It is the treatment (which is the
point you ignored from my response).

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Re: Ablutions

[Gilberto Simpson]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
I'm not sure what your point is.?

On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 5:24 PM, hajmog  wrote:
> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
> Hi Gilberto, Matt;
>
> Check this out http://richarddawkins.net/
>
> And this
> http://WhyWontGodHealAmputees.com/
>
>
>
> Sent by iPhone
>
>
>
>
> __
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Re: Ablutions - inter-marriage

[Gilberto Simpson]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 4:29 PM, Susan Maneck  wrote:

>>> As you know Christianity is pretty broad. Even Catholics are allowed
>>> to intermarry now. It is mostly only evangelicals disapprove,


>> It isn't that the rules change. If you look up a Catechism of the
>> Catholic Church and look at what is says about marriage, marriage is
>> still a sacrament and so  it can still only happen between baptized
>> Christians. And Catholics are a majority of Christians worldwide.


> But that simply isn't true.

The current online version of the Catholic Code of Canon Law says:

Can.  1086 §1. A marriage between two persons, one of whom has been
baptized in the Catholic Church or received into it and has not
defected from it by a formal act and the other of whom is not
baptized, is invalid.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P3Y.HTM

And last year the *current* Pope changed that to be even more cut-and-dried

"A marriage between two persons, one of whom was baptized in the
Catholic Church or received into it, and the other of whom is not
baptized, is invalid".

http://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/b16omnium.HTM


>>> Judaism is more
>>> tolerant of women intermarrying than men. Islam is just the opposite.
>>> Men can intermarry but not women.

>> I think you are mischaracterizing this. Not to marry non-Jews (of
>> either sex) is one of the 613 commandments of the Torah.

> Of the 613 commandments of the Torah only two are seen as binding upon
> women, keeping the sabbath and kosher home.

I think you are being bizarre here. I hope you don't mean what you
said here.So according to Judaism women are allowed to commit murder,
steal, commit idolatry ?

In any case:
Deuteronomy 7:3 says:
3Do not intermarry with them. Do not give your daughters to their sons
or take their daughters for your sons,

Anyway, both these sets of rules are still more restrictive than

�(Lawful unto you in marriage are chaste women who are believers and
chaste women among the people of the book�. (al-Ma�idah, 5).

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Re: Ablutions - where?

[iskandar.hai]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv


I don't think so. I think Iraq was part of the Ottoman Empire until the early 
1920's or so. 


Best regards, 
Iskandar 



Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry®

-Original Message-
From: Gilberto Simpson 
Sender: Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 21:06:47 
To: Baha'i Studies
Reply-To: "Baha'i Studies" 
Subject: Re: Ablutions - where?

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 4:29 PM, Susan Maneck  wrote:
> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
>> Sure. And that particular interpretation was limited to a particular
>> time and a particular place in a particular culture. And other Muslims
>> in most other places in most other times interpreted those rules
>> differently. So that suggest, instead of blaming all Muslims
>> everywhere you should focus on what factors in Safavid society led
>> them to set up a system which discriminated against people in those
>> particular ways.
>
> As I indicated, it was imported from the Shi'ite 'ulama in Iraq and
> was not therefore specifically Iranian.
>
I think in the period you were talking about Iraq wasn't even a
country yet  and the region was dominated by the Safavids.

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Re: Ablutions - where?

[Gilberto Simpson]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 4:29 PM, Susan Maneck  wrote:
> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
>> Sure. And that particular interpretation was limited to a particular
>> time and a particular place in a particular culture. And other Muslims
>> in most other places in most other times interpreted those rules
>> differently. So that suggest, instead of blaming all Muslims
>> everywhere you should focus on what factors in Safavid society led
>> them to set up a system which discriminated against people in those
>> particular ways.
>
> As I indicated, it was imported from the Shi'ite 'ulama in Iraq and
> was not therefore specifically Iranian.
>
I think in the period you were talking about Iraq wasn't even a
country yet  and the region was dominated by the Safavids.

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Re: Ablutions

[Susan Maneck]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
> I'm concerned that you are so eager to lump all Muslims together as bad
> people who hate Baha'is, when you are talking to two simultaneously who
> don't. Do you want Muslims to hate you or something?

The problem, Matt, is that Iranian Baha'is like Iskandar have already
experienced this hatred first hand and often in very traumatic ways.
And this isn't just a Shi'ite problem. Let me quote what al-Azhar, the
most prestigious Islamic university in the world had to say about
Baha'is:

"Surely Al-Azhar calls out to those who are responsible for the state
of affairs in the Arab Republic of Egypt that they should be resolute
in their stand against this deviated group which has rebelled against
the religion of Allah and against the public order of this society.
They should execute the verdict of Allah against them and promulgate
laws to crush them and to defile and defame them and their thoughts.
This should be done so as to support and protect all their fellow
citizens lest they become apostate by this heretic sect and move away
from the straight path of Allah.

Surely it is necessary for all of these people who have harmed the
interests of Islam and the country that they should not be seen alive
and if this should not happen then they should make sure that they
never utter anything against Islam

This matter surely calls for a rapid and active response from the
religious authorities and jurists and those responsible with the
enforcements and executions of these matters. Let us always remember
that Allah has Allah has granted to those in authority (the power of
enforcement) what it has not granted to Quran too.

This mischief in Islam should be dealt with concern and attention as
it is among the major crimes and sins against Islam. Then let us all
rush out to defend the rights of Allah which have been defiled and
violated. Let us also rush out to defend Islam, the religion of Allah,
regarding which people have been put to trial by the false and vain
talks (of these deviated sects). We may consider these actions to be
small and insignificant but surely they have a great position near
Allah."

Now, granted there are Muslims such as yourself who do not pay any
attention to the fatwas of the 'ulama but this is not the case for
most Muslims and this puts Baha'is in a very precarious position in
nearly all Muslim countries.

warmest, Susan

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Re: Ablutions

[iskandar.hai]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv


That's OK, that you don't want to ask the question from Sistani or Lankarani, 
etc. I understand. Had you or another tolerant and open minded Muslim been able 
to get a decree from Lankarani or Sistani that Baha'is are not "najas", it 
would have been a tremendous help towards the improvement of the human rights 
situation of Baha'is. 

The issue, however, is not a matter of "theology" however, it's a matter of law 
and day to day practice by the way. 

Anyhow, it's OK that you don't want to ask. I guess I was a bit too optimistic. 

Best regards, 

Iskandar 





Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry®

-Original Message-
From: Matt Haase 
Sender: Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 16:26:00 
To: Baha'i Studies
Reply-To: "Baha'i Studies" 
Subject: Re: Ablutions

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
No thanks. I don't follow those scholars in terms of theology. I study
religions on my own, and come to my own conclusions what I think about them.


On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 7:47 AM, Iskandar Hai, M.D.
wrote:

> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
> I think it would be a great idea if Gilberto or Matt ask Sistani or Fazel
> Lankarani about Baha'is specifically, if they consider us Baha'is as najas
> infidels apostates or kAAfir or mushrik.
>
> Dear Matt and Gilberto, will you both kindly do ask this question in
> separate letters from the Shiah Ayatollahs Lankarani, Khamenei, and Sistani
> and from other leading Sunni mufti scholars?
>
>
> Best regards
>
> Iskandar
>
>
>
>
>
> Sent from my iPod
>
>
> On Jun 23, 2010, at 2:20 AM, Susan Maneck  wrote:
>
>  The Baha'i Studies Listserv
>>
>>> You mean the same Imams whom Bahaullah called
>>>
>>> " the manifestations of the power of God, and the
>>> sources of His authority, and the repositories of His knowledge, and
>>> the daysprings of His commandments."?
>>>
>>
>> As I said, I don't know how authentic those ahadith are.
>>
>> I'm not saying that people aren't being mistreated. I'm primarily
>>> questioning how the mistreatment is being framed. You want to blame
>>> Islam or Muslims as Muslims.
>>>
>>
>> I believe the issue was najas, not Islam or Muslims.
>>
>> You are missing the point. I'm not saying that it is "just" Jews. If
>>> anything, it is "just" Persians (of a certain era). Maybe you should
>>> blame the Safavids and their legacy instead of Islam.
>>>
>>
>> I think the fact that the Safavids forcibly converted Iran to Shi'ism
>> was a problem, but the intolerance towards religious minorities was
>> introduced by the 'ulama brought in from Iraq, so it isn't just an
>> Iranian thing.
>>
>>>
>>> I think you are mischaracterizing what "the ulama" are saying. And
>>> they don't speak with one voice. Grand Ayatolla Sistani and Grand
>>> Ayatollah Fazel Lankarani both explicitly hold that Jews and
>>> Christians are ritually clean. And Sistani is basically the highest
>>> ranking 12-er cleric in Iraq.
>>>
>>
>> If they say Baha'is are not najas I'll be impressed.
>>
>> __
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Re: Ablutions

[Susan Maneck]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
> No thanks. I don't follow those scholars in terms of theology. I study
> religions on my own, and come to my own conclusions what I think about them.

A wise move as far as what you are going to believe for yourself, but
if we are talking about what Sistani or Lakarani believe, then
obviously we need to ask them.
>

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Re: Ablutions

[iskandar.hai]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv



Huh? Do I want Muslims to hate me? Where did you get that from? No, of course 
not. 

So, two Muslims out of more than a billion don't hate me. Well, that's nice and 
I appreciate it. 


Best regards and much thanks, 

Iskandar 




Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry®

-Original Message-
From: Matt Haase 
Sender: Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 16:33:30 
To: Baha'i Studies
Reply-To: "Baha'i Studies" 
Subject: Re: Ablutions

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
I'm concerned that you are so eager to lump all Muslims together as bad
people who hate Baha'is, when you are talking to two simultaneously who
don't. Do you want Muslims to hate you or something?



On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 8:01 AM, Iskandar Hai, M.D.
wrote:

> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
> Well, I seriously doubt if the Quran verse 9:28 was meant to be understood
> spiritually back then at that time when it was revealed in early 7th century
> because it is reassuring the early Muslims not to worry about the loss of
> trade and business with the Meccans. This is manifestly obvious. But it
> would be nice if it is understood and read metaphorically nowadays by all
> Muslims regarding Baha'is or regarding folks who don't believe in God, or
> people who don't believe in any religion, or Buddhists or Hindus, etc. Alas,
> that's not the case.
>
>
>
> Best regards
> Iskandar
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Sent from my iPod
>
> On Jun 23, 2010, at 7:04 AM, Gilberto Simpson 
> wrote:
>
>  The Baha'i Studies Listserv
>> Susan, I don't think you understood what I said.
>>
>> On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 1:57 AM, Susan Maneck  wrote:
>>
>>> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
>>>
 I would definitely read that ayat spiritually. (And it is my

 understanding that that is the typical Hanafi view at least).

>>>
>> I would too. The issue here was clearly profaning a holy site.
>>>
>>
>> No. The verse in question is:
>> [Yusufali 9:28] O ye who believe! Truly the Pagans are unclean; so let
>> them not, after this year of theirs, approach the Sacred Mosque. And
>> if ye fear poverty, soon will Allah enrich you, if He wills, out of
>> His bounty, for Allah is All-knowing, All-wise.
>>
>> And what I'm saying is that in the Hanafi view (note that the Hanafis
>> are the most populous interpretation of Sunni Islam... the Ottomans
>> and the Mughals were Hanafi), in the above verse, Pagans are being
>> described as unclean in a spiritual sense. NOT in a physical sense and
>> not in a sense that relates to laws about najas (ritual impurity) and
>> should not be used to justify a social system where non-Muslims have
>> cooties.
>>
>>
>> Personally  Muslims do not offend me by not letting me go to Mecca any
>>> more than Zoroastrians offend me by not letting me into their Fire
>>> Temples. However, when a Jew or a Zoroastrian can't go out when it is
>>> raining for fear he will rub up against a Muslim and pollute them,
>>> that is another question.
>>>
>>
>> Sure. And that particular interpretation was limited to a particular
>> time and a particular place in a particular culture. And other Muslims
>> in most other places in most other times interpreted those rules
>> differently. So that suggest, instead of blaming all Muslims
>> everywhere you should focus on what factors in Safavid society led
>> them to set up a system which discriminated against people in those
>> particular ways.
>>
>>  (And do
>>>
 you think that Bahais count as Idolaters?)

>>>
>>> The question really is how do Muslims regard us? As you know, this
>>> verse came to be applied to all non-Muslims even the Ahl-i Kitab.
>>>
>>
>> The Saudis apply the law that way but there are definitely ulema which
>> don't interpret the Quran that way and 1) maintain the distinction
>> between Pagans and People of the Book (Ahl al-Kitab) and 2) would even
>> say it is halal for straight up Pagans to visit as long as they don't
>> stay.(this is mentioned in one of the links I provided elsewhere in
>> this thread)
>>
>>  So if you want to shake
>>>
 hands I'm not going to treat you like najas. And if you serve some
 good vegetarian food or seafood (which is what I eat for myself) then
 I'd be happy to partake.

>>>
>>> As would most Muslims living in the US. It is only in predominantly
>>> Muslim countries that we are likely to face discrimination.
>>>
>>
>> In terms of the particular religious question under discussion (ritual
>> impurity) this is an interpretation limited primarily to Iran, not the
>> Muslim world as a whole.
>>
>>  Marriage is a tricky question. Officially,
>>>
 neither Christianity nor Judaism really approve of intermarriage.

>>> So
>>>
 Islam is actually more inclusive by allowing marriage with People of
 the Book. (And then the question is whether Bahais count under that
 category)

>>>
>> As you know Christianity is pretty broad. Even Catholics are allowed
>>> to intermarry now. It is mostly only evangelicals disapprove,
>>>
>>

Re: Ablutions

[Susan Maneck]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
> "apostate" or kaffir are terms with neutral meanings which may or may
> not apply to particular Bahais.

Apostasy and kaffir are terms with neutral meanings?

Please, give me a break!

Apostasy carries the death penalty in Islam! As for kafir, it's
literal translation is 'ingrate' hardly a neutral meaning in my book.

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Re: Ablutions

[hajmog]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Hi Gilberto, Matt;

Check this out http://richarddawkins.net/

And this
http://WhyWontGodHealAmputees.com/



Sent by iPhone


  

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Re: Ablutions

[hajmog]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
<>. I'm concerned that you are so eager to lump all Muslims together as bad 
people who hate Baha'is, when you are talking to two simultaneously who don't. 
Do you want Muslims to hate you or something? <>

Dear Matt,  I am interested in your thoughts about atheism too. Can you please 
comment on that issue before we get involved in this silly exchange?
  

Sent by iPhone




  
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Re: Ablutions

[Matt Haase]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
I'm concerned that you are so eager to lump all Muslims together as bad
people who hate Baha'is, when you are talking to two simultaneously who
don't. Do you want Muslims to hate you or something?



On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 8:01 AM, Iskandar Hai, M.D.
wrote:

> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
> Well, I seriously doubt if the Quran verse 9:28 was meant to be understood
> spiritually back then at that time when it was revealed in early 7th century
> because it is reassuring the early Muslims not to worry about the loss of
> trade and business with the Meccans. This is manifestly obvious. But it
> would be nice if it is understood and read metaphorically nowadays by all
> Muslims regarding Baha'is or regarding folks who don't believe in God, or
> people who don't believe in any religion, or Buddhists or Hindus, etc. Alas,
> that's not the case.
>
>
>
> Best regards
> Iskandar
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Sent from my iPod
>
> On Jun 23, 2010, at 7:04 AM, Gilberto Simpson 
> wrote:
>
>  The Baha'i Studies Listserv
>> Susan, I don't think you understood what I said.
>>
>> On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 1:57 AM, Susan Maneck  wrote:
>>
>>> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
>>>
 I would definitely read that ayat spiritually. (And it is my

 understanding that that is the typical Hanafi view at least).

>>>
>> I would too. The issue here was clearly profaning a holy site.
>>>
>>
>> No. The verse in question is:
>> [Yusufali 9:28] O ye who believe! Truly the Pagans are unclean; so let
>> them not, after this year of theirs, approach the Sacred Mosque. And
>> if ye fear poverty, soon will Allah enrich you, if He wills, out of
>> His bounty, for Allah is All-knowing, All-wise.
>>
>> And what I'm saying is that in the Hanafi view (note that the Hanafis
>> are the most populous interpretation of Sunni Islam... the Ottomans
>> and the Mughals were Hanafi), in the above verse, Pagans are being
>> described as unclean in a spiritual sense. NOT in a physical sense and
>> not in a sense that relates to laws about najas (ritual impurity) and
>> should not be used to justify a social system where non-Muslims have
>> cooties.
>>
>>
>> Personally  Muslims do not offend me by not letting me go to Mecca any
>>> more than Zoroastrians offend me by not letting me into their Fire
>>> Temples. However, when a Jew or a Zoroastrian can't go out when it is
>>> raining for fear he will rub up against a Muslim and pollute them,
>>> that is another question.
>>>
>>
>> Sure. And that particular interpretation was limited to a particular
>> time and a particular place in a particular culture. And other Muslims
>> in most other places in most other times interpreted those rules
>> differently. So that suggest, instead of blaming all Muslims
>> everywhere you should focus on what factors in Safavid society led
>> them to set up a system which discriminated against people in those
>> particular ways.
>>
>>  (And do
>>>
 you think that Bahais count as Idolaters?)

>>>
>>> The question really is how do Muslims regard us? As you know, this
>>> verse came to be applied to all non-Muslims even the Ahl-i Kitab.
>>>
>>
>> The Saudis apply the law that way but there are definitely ulema which
>> don't interpret the Quran that way and 1) maintain the distinction
>> between Pagans and People of the Book (Ahl al-Kitab) and 2) would even
>> say it is halal for straight up Pagans to visit as long as they don't
>> stay.(this is mentioned in one of the links I provided elsewhere in
>> this thread)
>>
>>  So if you want to shake
>>>
 hands I'm not going to treat you like najas. And if you serve some
 good vegetarian food or seafood (which is what I eat for myself) then
 I'd be happy to partake.

>>>
>>> As would most Muslims living in the US. It is only in predominantly
>>> Muslim countries that we are likely to face discrimination.
>>>
>>
>> In terms of the particular religious question under discussion (ritual
>> impurity) this is an interpretation limited primarily to Iran, not the
>> Muslim world as a whole.
>>
>>  Marriage is a tricky question. Officially,
>>>
 neither Christianity nor Judaism really approve of intermarriage.

>>> So
>>>
 Islam is actually more inclusive by allowing marriage with People of
 the Book. (And then the question is whether Bahais count under that
 category)

>>>
>> As you know Christianity is pretty broad. Even Catholics are allowed
>>> to intermarry now. It is mostly only evangelicals disapprove,
>>>
>>
>> It isn't that the rules change. If you look up a Catechism of the
>> Catholic Church and look at what is says about marriage, marriage is
>> still a sacrament and so  it can still only happen between baptized
>> Christians. And Catholics are a majority of Christians worldwide. In
>> any case, the Bible still says "Be not yoked with unbelievers".
>>
>> Judaism is more
>>> tolerant of women intermarrying than men. Islam is just the opposite.
>>> Men can intermarry but

Re: Ablutions

[Susan Maneck]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
> Sure. And that particular interpretation was limited to a particular
> time and a particular place in a particular culture. And other Muslims
> in most other places in most other times interpreted those rules
> differently. So that suggest, instead of blaming all Muslims
> everywhere you should focus on what factors in Safavid society led
> them to set up a system which discriminated against people in those
> particular ways.

As I indicated, it was imported from the Shi'ite 'ulama in Iraq and
was not therefore specifically Iranian.

>> As would most Muslims living in the US. It is only in predominantly
>> Muslim countries that we are likely to face discrimination.
>
> In terms of the particular religious question under discussion (ritual
> impurity) this is an interpretation limited primarily to Iran, not the
> Muslim world as a whole.

I don't think so. Christians in Pakistan often complain about how this
Qur'anic verse has been applied to them (of course it doesn't help
that these Christians were converts from untouchable castes in
undivided India.)

Also, my recollection is that the 15 December 2003 fatwa issued from
Al-Ahzar University also declared the Baha'is unclean. That is the
most prestigious Islamic university in the world.
But I would agree the concept is stronger amongst Shi'ites in Iran
than elsewhere.


>> As you know Christianity is pretty broad. Even Catholics are allowed
>> to intermarry now. It is mostly only evangelicals disapprove,
>
> It isn't that the rules change. If you look up a Catechism of the
> Catholic Church and look at what is says about marriage, marriage is
> still a sacrament and so  it can still only happen between baptized
> Christians. And Catholics are a majority of Christians worldwide.

But that simply isn't true. The rules do change.  Whether marriage is
a sacrament or not most Catholic priests at least in the US,   will
perform inter-faith marriages. It used to be they would only do this
if the non-Catholic agreed to raise the children in the church, but
even that is no longer required. There are still ill-advised but
permissible. Here are the current requirements for inter-faith
marriage in the Catholic church as far as the US is concerned:

 "The Catholic party to a mixed marriage is required to declare his
(her) intention of continuing practice of the Catholic faith and to
promise to do all in his (her) power to share his (her) faith with the
children born of the marriage by having them baptized and raised as
Catholics. No declarations or promises are required of the
non-Catholic party, but he (she) must be informed of the declaration
and promise made by the Catholic.

"Notice of the Catholic's declaration and promise is an essential part
of the application made to a bishop for (1) permission to marry a
baptized non-Catholic or (2) a dispensation to marry an unbaptized
non-Catholic.

"A mixed marriage can take place with a Nuptial Mass. (The [U.S.]
bishops' statement [on the subject] added this caution: 'To the extent
that Eucharistic sharing is not permitted by the general discipline of
the Church, this is to be considered when plans are being made to have
the mixed marriage at Mass or not.')

"The ordinary minister at a mixed marriage is an authorized priest or
deacon, and the ordinary place is the parish church of the Catholic
party. A non-Catholic minister may not only attend the marriage
ceremony but may also address, pray with, and bless the couple.

"For appropriate pastoral reasons, a bishop can grant a dispensation
from the Catholic form of marriage and can permit the marriage to take
place in a non-Catholic church with a non-Catholic minister as the
officiating minister. A priest may not only attend such a ceremony but
may also address, pray with, and bless the couple.

"'It is not permitted,' however, the [U.S.] bishops' statement
declared, 'to have two religious services or to have a single service
in which both the Catholic marriage ritual and a non-Catholic marriage
ritual are celebrated jointly or successively'"

This latter requirement would present problems for Baha'is but I have
seen plenty of Catholic-Baha'i marriages none-the-less. Presumably
they performed the Baha'i marriage after the Catholic one and without
the priest's consent.

 In
> any case, the Bible still says "Be not yoked with unbelievers".

To be precise, Paul says that. But since Paul also insisted that
Christians were free from works of the law, this can't be considered a
matter of law. ;-}

>
>> Judaism is more
>> tolerant of women intermarrying than men. Islam is just the opposite.
>> Men can intermarry but not women.
>
> I think you are mischaracterizing this. Not to marry non-Jews (of
> either sex) is one of the 613 commandments of the Torah.

Of the 613 commandments of the Torah only two are seen as binding upon
women, keeping the sabbath and kosher home. I'm also looking at Jewish
practice. Some of the research in Jewish conversions to the 

Re: Ablutions

[Matt Haase]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
No thanks. I don't follow those scholars in terms of theology. I study
religions on my own, and come to my own conclusions what I think about them.


On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 7:47 AM, Iskandar Hai, M.D.
wrote:

> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
> I think it would be a great idea if Gilberto or Matt ask Sistani or Fazel
> Lankarani about Baha'is specifically, if they consider us Baha'is as najas
> infidels apostates or kAAfir or mushrik.
>
> Dear Matt and Gilberto, will you both kindly do ask this question in
> separate letters from the Shiah Ayatollahs Lankarani, Khamenei, and Sistani
> and from other leading Sunni mufti scholars?
>
>
> Best regards
>
> Iskandar
>
>
>
>
>
> Sent from my iPod
>
>
> On Jun 23, 2010, at 2:20 AM, Susan Maneck  wrote:
>
>  The Baha'i Studies Listserv
>>
>>> You mean the same Imams whom Bahaullah called
>>>
>>> " the manifestations of the power of God, and the
>>> sources of His authority, and the repositories of His knowledge, and
>>> the daysprings of His commandments."?
>>>
>>
>> As I said, I don't know how authentic those ahadith are.
>>
>> I'm not saying that people aren't being mistreated. I'm primarily
>>> questioning how the mistreatment is being framed. You want to blame
>>> Islam or Muslims as Muslims.
>>>
>>
>> I believe the issue was najas, not Islam or Muslims.
>>
>> You are missing the point. I'm not saying that it is "just" Jews. If
>>> anything, it is "just" Persians (of a certain era). Maybe you should
>>> blame the Safavids and their legacy instead of Islam.
>>>
>>
>> I think the fact that the Safavids forcibly converted Iran to Shi'ism
>> was a problem, but the intolerance towards religious minorities was
>> introduced by the 'ulama brought in from Iraq, so it isn't just an
>> Iranian thing.
>>
>>>
>>> I think you are mischaracterizing what "the ulama" are saying. And
>>> they don't speak with one voice. Grand Ayatolla Sistani and Grand
>>> Ayatollah Fazel Lankarani both explicitly hold that Jews and
>>> Christians are ritually clean. And Sistani is basically the highest
>>> ranking 12-er cleric in Iraq.
>>>
>>
>> If they say Baha'is are not najas I'll be impressed.
>>
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Re: Ablutions

[Gilberto Simpson]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
I'm saying be more specific

:)

On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 3:54 PM, hajmog  wrote:
> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
> Hi,
>
> I mean atheism specifically,
>
> Sent by iPhone
>
>
>
>
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Re: Ablutions

[hajmog]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Hi, 

I mean atheism specifically, 

Sent by iPhone


  

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Re: Ablutions

[Gilberto Simpson]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
?!?!

Corporations are definitely nowhere in the same league. They primarily
make profits for their shareholders. Some non-theistic religions (e.g.
Buddhism) are positive. I'm not sure humanistic philosophy you had in
mind.

On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 3:36 PM, hajmog  wrote:
> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
>
 religion is basically a positive force which
> makes the world a better place. On balance, the good outweighs the
> bad, and any bad is usually attributable (ultimately) to sinful
> individuals. So that would include the major and not-so-major
> reilgions. ~<<
> Wow great. So you would also include humanism (atheistic good) and manmade
> institutions like corporations which focus on doing good?  Or not?
> Sent by iPhone
>
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Re: Ablutions

[hajmog]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
>>> religion is basically a positive force which
makes the world a better place. On balance, the good outweighs the
bad, and any bad is usually attributable (ultimately) to sinful
individuals. So that would include the major and not-so-major
reilgions. ~<<

Wow great. So you would also include humanism (atheistic good) and manmade 
institutions like corporations which focus on doing good?  Or not?   

Sent by iPhone


  
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Re: Ablutions

[Gilberto Simpson]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
My basic view is that with the rare exception of Hale-Bopp following,
gun-stockpiling, compound-having, child molesting, poison-Kool-Aid
drinking, death-cults, religion is basically a positive force which
makes the world a better place. On balance, the good outweighs the
bad, and any bad is usually attributable (ultimately) to sinful
individuals. So that would include the major and not-so-major
reilgions.

On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 1:20 PM, hajmog  wrote:
> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
>
>>> Generalizations are generally bad. Especially about entire religions,
> races, nationalities, ethnicities and civilizations. <<
> Hi, then do you think it is fair to say that all three, the Baha'i Faith and
> Islam and Christianity, are not generally bad (this even implies that they
> are not generally good either) ?
>
> Sent by iPhone
>
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Re: Ablutions

[Gilberto Simpson]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 10:12 AM, Stephen Gray  wrote:
> The Baha'i Studies Listserv

> Hi,
>
> Saudi Arabia is Hanbali, actually the only palce in the world where that
> specific jurisprudence exists.
> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8d/Madhhab_Map2.png
> That's a map from wikipedia.

That's a nice map but I am worried that you may be oversimplifying a
bit how this works. For Sunnis there are 4 major "schools"  of
interpretation of Islamic law. And especially in the past, particular
Islamic rulers would have governed according to one of the 4 schools.
And so the map which you shared gives some indication of the
geographic distribution of those schools.

But in practice, following a particular school is to a large degree an
individual choice.
So in any given country you'll still find pockets of people following
madhabs other than the majority madhab (even in Saudi Arabia)

Also the Hanafi madhab is also predominant in Eastern Europe, China,
the former Ottoman lands and the Indian subcontinent so the number of
people there is larger than perhaps the area suggests.

And also another piece which makes the picture more complex is that
there is a relatively modern movement sometimes called Salafism or
Wahabism which theoretically strive to be independent from traditional
Muslim scholarship. It would be more accurate to say that Wahabism is
dominant in Saudi Arabia, not just the Hanbali school. And there are
many Muslims outside of Saudi Arabia who would regard Wahabism as a
form of heresy which only has as much prominence as it does because of
a coincidental alliance between Abdul-Wahab and the House of Saud
combined with the discovery of oil in Saudi Arabia.
>
> Sunni jurisprudences:
> According to the map Maliki jurisprudence covers the most territory.
> Shafi jurisprudence covers Indonesia which is the most populous Muslim
> county and some other areas.
> Hanafi jursiprudence does cover most of the Middle East.
> Hanbali jurisprudence covers Saudi Arabia, just Saudi Arabia.
>
> Shia jurisprudences:
> Jafari jurisprudence covers Iran, Iraq, and Azerbaijan.
> Zaidi juriprudence covers Yemen.
>
> Other juriprudences:
> Ibadi jurisprudence covers Oman.
>
> So, if you want to go to Saudi Arabia, knowledge of Hanbali jursiprudence is
> an absolute prerequisite.
>
> Stephen
>
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Question about Spiritual vs. Social Teachings

[Sen & Sonja]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
On 23 Jun 2010 at 7:53, haj...@yahoo.com wrote:

> The Brilliant Proof of Abu'l-Fadl Golpaygani, for example, lists 10
> new features of the Baha'i Faith.  Are these 10 features spiritual or
> social?  Spiritual and non-social?  Non-spiritual and social?  A
> combination of all three?

I think in terms of metaphysical teachings, teachings for the 
religious community and teachings for society. 

"considering work in allowable professions as a form of worship" is 
metaphysical - it tells us that God thinks so-and-so. Naturally 
accepting the teaching will produce individual and social effects, 
but the teaching is metaphysical. For the others

1) rejection of oral tradition in favor of established texts, - 
10) a new fractional inheritance system.
= teachings for the religious community

and the remaining are for the religious community and society :

2) rejection of divisive interpretation of God's word, 
3) emphasis on the unity of mankind and avoidance of divisive 
doctrines, 
4) prohibition of slavery, 
6) mandatory education of both sexes, 
7) prohibition of cursing, insults, swearing, and blasphemy, 
8) prohibition of arms except in extreme circumstances, 
9) establishment of local Houses of Justice, parliaments,
and constitutional governments, 


--
--  
Sen McGlinn   http://senmcglinn.wordpress.com
  ***
When, however, thou dost contemplate the innermost essence of things,
 and the individuality of each, 
 thou wilt behold the signs of thy Lord's mercy . . ." 
--
-- 
 


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Re: Ablutions

[hajmog]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
>> Generalizations are generally bad. Especially about entire religions,
races, nationalities, ethnicities and civilizations. <<

Hi, then do you think it is fair to say that all three, the Baha'i Faith and 
Islam and Christianity, are not generally bad (this even implies that they are 
not generally good either) ?

Sent by iPhone




  
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Re: Ablutions

[Gilberto Simpson]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 11:43 AM, haj...@yahoo.com  wrote:
> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
>
>>> If anything, it is "just" Persians (of a certain era)... instead of Islam
>>>  <<
> Persians are not bad people. [...] All
> mankind is one.
>
>

Generalizations are generally bad. Especially about entire religions,
races, nationalities, ethnicities and civilizations.

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Re: Ablutions

[haj...@yahoo.com]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
>> If anything, it is "just" Persians (of a certain era)... instead of Islam  <<

Persians are not bad people.  In fact, Persians invented Human Rights. All 
mankind is one.


  
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Re: Hidden Words Persian 77

[Iskandar Hai, M.D.]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
http://bahai-library.com/bsr/bsr09/9H2_comp_hiddenwords.htm  and scroll down
to the Persian Hidden Words number 77.


On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 8:36 AM, Firouz  wrote:

> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
>
>
> Dear Dr. Hai,
>
> Do you know how I can access this file? Is there a link to a site? Thanks
> for additional information.
>
> Warm regards,
> Firouz
>
>
> On 23/6/2010 6:31 PM, Iskandar Hai, M.D. wrote:
>
> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
>
>
> Dear Firouz:
>
>  This has been explained by Abdu'l-Baha and by Shoghi Effendi.there is a
> file in one of the issues of the Baha'i Studies Review a few years ago that
> has compiled the interpretations.
>
>
>  Best regards
> Iskandar
>
>
>
>
>
> Sent from my iPod
>
> On Jun 23, 2010, at 2:41 AM, Firouz  wrote:
>
>   The Baha'i Studies Listserv
>
>
> Dear All,
>
> I have a question about the Hidden Words Persian 77.
>
> O SON OF JUSTICE! In the night-season the beauty of the immortal Being hath
> repaired from the emerald height of fidelity unto the Sadratu’l-Muntahá, and
> wept with such a weeping that the concourse on high and the dwellers of the
> realms above wailed at His lamenting. Whereupon there was asked, Why the
> wailing and weeping? He made reply: As bidden I waited expectant upon the
> hill of faithfulness, yet inhaled not from them that dwell on earth the
> fragrance of fidelity. Then summoned to return I beheld, and lo! certain
> doves of holiness were sore tried within the claws of the dogs of earth.
> Thereupon the Maid of heaven hastened forth unveiled and resplendent from
> Her mystic mansion, and asked of their names, and all were told but one.
> And when urged, the first letter thereof was uttered, whereupon the dwellers
> of the celestial chambers rushed forth out of their habitation of glory. And
> whilst the second letter was pronounced they fell down, one and all, upon
> the dust. At that moment a voice was heard from the inmost shrine: “Thus far
> and no farther.” Verily We bear witness to that which they have done and now
> are doing.
>
> I appreciate if someone could explain more about this Hidden Word. Also my
> specific question is to what their refers to. Thanks so much in advance.
>
> Best regards,
> Firouz
>
>
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Question about Spiritual vs. Social Teachings

[haj...@yahoo.com]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Hi,


I am looking for lists of spiritual and social teachings, from both Baha'i and 
non-Baha'i sources.  I am trying to see if there is a difference between social 
and spiritual teachings, and what these differences possibly are.

For example, what are the spiritual teachings of Moses, Jesus, and Mohammad?  
And what are their social teachings?

Can a social teaching be non-spiritual, or are all social teachings spiritual 
in nature?  And vice-versa, can a spiritual teaching be non-social?

What is the definition of a "spiritual teaching"?  What is the definition of a 
"social teaching"?  Are human being essentially "spiritual" and in no need of a 
"spiritual teacher"?  Is the term "spiritual teacher" a misnomer, are they 
really "social teachers"? :)

The Brilliant Proof of Abu'l-Fadl Golpaygani, for example, lists 10 new 
features of the Baha'i Faith.  Are these 10 features spiritual or social?  
Spiritual and non-social?  Non-spiritual and social?  A combination of all 
three?

1) rejection of oral tradition in favor of established texts, 2) rejection of 
divisive interpretation of God's word, 3) emphasis on the unity of mankind and 
avoidance of divisive doctrines, 4) prohibition of slavery, 5) considering work 
in allowable professions as a form of worship, 6) mandatory education of both 
sexes, 7) prohibition of cursing, insults, swearing, and blasphemy, 8) 
prohibition of arms except in extreme circumstances, 9) establishment of local 
Houses of Justice, parliaments, and constitutional governments, and 10) a new 
fractional inheritance system.

Thanks.



  
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Re: Ablutions

[Stephen Gray]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
No. The verse in question is:
[Yusufali 9:28] O ye who believe! Truly the Pagans are unclean; so let
them not, after this year of theirs, approach the Sacred Mosque. And
if ye fear poverty, soon will Allah enrich you, if He wills, out of
His bounty, for Allah is All-knowing, All-wise.

And what I'm saying is that in the Hanafi view (note that the Hanafis
are the most populous interpretation of Sunni Islam... the Ottomans
and the Mughals were Hanafi), in the above verse, Pagans are being
described as unclean in a spiritual sense. NOT in a physical sense and
not in a sense that relates to laws about najas (ritual impurity) and
should not be used to justify a social system where non-Muslims have
cooties.

Hi,

Saudi Arabia is Hanbali, actually the only palce in the world where that 
specific jurisprudence exists.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8d/Madhhab_Map2.png
That's a map from wikipedia.

Sunni jurisprudences:
According to the map Maliki jurisprudence covers the most territory.
Shafi jurisprudence covers Indonesia which is the most populous Muslim county 
and some other areas.
Hanafi jursiprudence does cover most of the Middle East.
Hanbali jurisprudence covers Saudi Arabia, just Saudi Arabia.

Shia jurisprudences:
Jafari jurisprudence covers Iran, Iraq, and Azerbaijan.
Zaidi juriprudence covers Yemen.

Other juriprudences:
Ibadi jurisprudence covers Oman.

So, if you want to go to Saudi Arabia, knowledge of Hanbali jursiprudence is an 
absolute prerequisite.

Stephen


  
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Re: Ablutions

[iskandar.hai]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv


So, you don't want to ask the question. That's fine. 

I just hope that the Saudi government goes along with your understanding of 
Islam vis a vis us Baha'is, apostasy, kAAfer, najas, etc. 


Best regards, 

Iskandar 




Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry®

-Original Message-
From: Gilberto Simpson 
Sender: Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 09:00:51 
To: Baha'i Studies
Reply-To: "Baha'i Studies" 
Subject: Re: Ablutions

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
"apostate" or kaffir are terms with neutral meanings which may or may
not apply to particular Bahais. The more important question is how
should Bahais be treated.

I posted links from Sunni websites on the cleanliness of non-Muslim
bathroom floor and the permissibility of non-Muslims entering the
masjid. They are both based on the assumption that the human body is
assumed to be clean unless known to be otherwise.

From  my own readings I know that this position which you seem to want
to foist on Muslims is not a mainstream Sunni view and I think that
the burden should be on you to find a "leading Sunni mufti" who claims
that the body of a a Bahai is najis and therefore Muslims are required
to ostracize them on religious grounds.

This position is unique to Iran as far as I can tell and so as I
already mentioned I would put it in the same category is the racist
exclusionary practices which existed in the US against Blacks and
Latinos. They were for a specific time and specific place and have no
use today.

On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 7:47 AM, Iskandar Hai, M.D.
 wrote:
> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
> I think it would be a great idea if Gilberto or Matt ask Sistani or Fazel
> Lankarani about Baha'is specifically, if they consider us Baha'is as najas
> infidels apostates or kAAfir or mushrik.
>
> Dear Matt and Gilberto, will you both kindly do ask this question in
> separate letters from the Shiah Ayatollahs Lankarani, Khamenei, and Sistani
> and from other leading Sunni mufti scholars?
>
>
> Best regards
>
> Iskandar
>
>
>
>
>
> Sent from my iPod
>
> On Jun 23, 2010, at 2:20 AM, Susan Maneck  wrote:
>
>> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
>>>
>>> You mean the same Imams whom Bahaullah called
>>> " the manifestations of the power of God, and the
>>> sources of His authority, and the repositories of His knowledge, and
>>> the daysprings of His commandments."?
>>
>> As I said, I don't know how authentic those ahadith are.
>>
>>> I'm not saying that people aren't being mistreated. I'm primarily
>>> questioning how the mistreatment is being framed. You want to blame
>>> Islam or Muslims as Muslims.
>>
>> I believe the issue was najas, not Islam or Muslims.
>>
>>> You are missing the point. I'm not saying that it is "just" Jews. If
>>> anything, it is "just" Persians (of a certain era). Maybe you should
>>> blame the Safavids and their legacy instead of Islam.
>>
>> I think the fact that the Safavids forcibly converted Iran to Shi'ism
>> was a problem, but the intolerance towards religious minorities was
>> introduced by the 'ulama brought in from Iraq, so it isn't just an
>> Iranian thing.
>>>
>>> I think you are mischaracterizing what "the ulama" are saying. And
>>> they don't speak with one voice. Grand Ayatolla Sistani and Grand
>>> Ayatollah Fazel Lankarani both explicitly hold that Jews and
>>> Christians are ritually clean. And Sistani is basically the highest
>>> ranking 12-er cleric in Iraq.
>>
>> If they say Baha'is are not najas I'll be impressed.
>>
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Re: Ablutions

[Gilberto Simpson]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
"apostate" or kaffir are terms with neutral meanings which may or may
not apply to particular Bahais. The more important question is how
should Bahais be treated.

I posted links from Sunni websites on the cleanliness of non-Muslim
bathroom floor and the permissibility of non-Muslims entering the
masjid. They are both based on the assumption that the human body is
assumed to be clean unless known to be otherwise.

>From  my own readings I know that this position which you seem to want
to foist on Muslims is not a mainstream Sunni view and I think that
the burden should be on you to find a "leading Sunni mufti" who claims
that the body of a a Bahai is najis and therefore Muslims are required
to ostracize them on religious grounds.

This position is unique to Iran as far as I can tell and so as I
already mentioned I would put it in the same category is the racist
exclusionary practices which existed in the US against Blacks and
Latinos. They were for a specific time and specific place and have no
use today.

On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 7:47 AM, Iskandar Hai, M.D.
 wrote:
> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
> I think it would be a great idea if Gilberto or Matt ask Sistani or Fazel
> Lankarani about Baha'is specifically, if they consider us Baha'is as najas
> infidels apostates or kAAfir or mushrik.
>
> Dear Matt and Gilberto, will you both kindly do ask this question in
> separate letters from the Shiah Ayatollahs Lankarani, Khamenei, and Sistani
> and from other leading Sunni mufti scholars?
>
>
> Best regards
>
> Iskandar
>
>
>
>
>
> Sent from my iPod
>
> On Jun 23, 2010, at 2:20 AM, Susan Maneck  wrote:
>
>> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
>>>
>>> You mean the same Imams whom Bahaullah called
>>> " the manifestations of the power of God, and the
>>> sources of His authority, and the repositories of His knowledge, and
>>> the daysprings of His commandments."?
>>
>> As I said, I don't know how authentic those ahadith are.
>>
>>> I'm not saying that people aren't being mistreated. I'm primarily
>>> questioning how the mistreatment is being framed. You want to blame
>>> Islam or Muslims as Muslims.
>>
>> I believe the issue was najas, not Islam or Muslims.
>>
>>> You are missing the point. I'm not saying that it is "just" Jews. If
>>> anything, it is "just" Persians (of a certain era). Maybe you should
>>> blame the Safavids and their legacy instead of Islam.
>>
>> I think the fact that the Safavids forcibly converted Iran to Shi'ism
>> was a problem, but the intolerance towards religious minorities was
>> introduced by the 'ulama brought in from Iraq, so it isn't just an
>> Iranian thing.
>>>
>>> I think you are mischaracterizing what "the ulama" are saying. And
>>> they don't speak with one voice. Grand Ayatolla Sistani and Grand
>>> Ayatollah Fazel Lankarani both explicitly hold that Jews and
>>> Christians are ritually clean. And Sistani is basically the highest
>>> ranking 12-er cleric in Iraq.
>>
>> If they say Baha'is are not najas I'll be impressed.
>>
>> __
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Re: Hidden Words Persian 77

[Firouz]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Dear Dr. Hai,

Do you know how I can access this file? Is there a link to a site? 
Thanks for additional information.

Warm regards,
Firouz

On 23/6/2010 6:31 PM, Iskandar Hai, M.D. wrote:
> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
>
> Dear Firouz:
>
> This has been explained by Abdu'l-Baha and by Shoghi Effendi.there is 
> a file in one of the issues of the Baha'i Studies Review a few years 
> ago that has compiled the interpretations.
>
>
> Best regards
> Iskandar
>
>
>
>
>
> Sent from my iPod
>
> On Jun 23, 2010, at 2:41 AM, Firouz  > wrote:
>
>> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
>>
>> Dear All,
>>
>> I have a question about the Hidden Words Persian 77.
>>
>> O SON OF JUSTICE! In the night-season the beauty of the immortal 
>> Being hath repaired from the emerald height of fidelity unto the 
>> Sadratu’l-Muntahá, and wept with such a weeping that the concourse on 
>> high and the dwellers of the realms above wailed at His lamenting. 
>> Whereupon there was asked, Why the wailing and weeping? He made 
>> reply: As bidden I waited expectant upon the hill of faithfulness, 
>> yet inhaled not from them that dwell on earth the fragrance of 
>> fidelity. Then summoned to return I beheld, and lo! certain doves of 
>> holiness were sore tried within the claws of the dogs of earth. 
>> Thereupon the Maid of heaven hastened forth unveiled and resplendent 
>> from Her mystic mansion, and asked of their names, and all were told 
>> but one. And when urged, the first letter thereof was uttered, 
>> whereupon the dwellers of the celestial chambers rushed forth out of 
>> their habitation of glory. And whilst the second letter was 
>> pronounced they fell down, one and all, upon the dust. At that moment 
>> a voice was heard from the inmost shrine: “Thus far and no farther.” 
>> Verily We bear witness to that which they have done and now are doing.
>>
>> I appreciate if someone could explain more about this Hidden Word. 
>> Also my specific question is to what their refers to. Thanks so much 
>> in advance.
>>
>> Best regards,
>> Firouz
>>
>>
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Re: Ablutions

[Iskandar Hai, M.D.]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Well, I seriously doubt if the Quran verse 9:28 was meant to be  
understood spiritually back then at that time when it was revealed in  
early 7th century because it is reassuring the early Muslims not to  
worry about the loss of trade and business with the Meccans. This is  
manifestly obvious. But it would be nice if it is understood and read  
metaphorically nowadays by all Muslims regarding Baha'is or regarding  
folks who don't believe in God, or people who don't believe in any  
religion, or Buddhists or Hindus, etc. Alas, that's not the case.



Best regards
Iskandar






Sent from my iPod

On Jun 23, 2010, at 7:04 AM, Gilberto Simpson > wrote:



The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Susan, I don't think you understood what I said.

On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 1:57 AM, Susan Maneck   
wrote:

The Baha'i Studies Listserv

I would definitely read that ayat spiritually. (And it is my
understanding that that is the typical Hanafi view at least).



I would too. The issue here was clearly profaning a holy site.


No. The verse in question is:
[Yusufali 9:28] O ye who believe! Truly the Pagans are unclean; so let
them not, after this year of theirs, approach the Sacred Mosque. And
if ye fear poverty, soon will Allah enrich you, if He wills, out of
His bounty, for Allah is All-knowing, All-wise.

And what I'm saying is that in the Hanafi view (note that the Hanafis
are the most populous interpretation of Sunni Islam... the Ottomans
and the Mughals were Hanafi), in the above verse, Pagans are being
described as unclean in a spiritual sense. NOT in a physical sense and
not in a sense that relates to laws about najas (ritual impurity) and
should not be used to justify a social system where non-Muslims have
cooties.


Personally  Muslims do not offend me by not letting me go to Mecca  
any

more than Zoroastrians offend me by not letting me into their Fire
Temples. However, when a Jew or a Zoroastrian can't go out when it is
raining for fear he will rub up against a Muslim and pollute them,
that is another question.


Sure. And that particular interpretation was limited to a particular
time and a particular place in a particular culture. And other Muslims
in most other places in most other times interpreted those rules
differently. So that suggest, instead of blaming all Muslims
everywhere you should focus on what factors in Safavid society led
them to set up a system which discriminated against people in those
particular ways.


 (And do

you think that Bahais count as Idolaters?)


The question really is how do Muslims regard us? As you know, this
verse came to be applied to all non-Muslims even the Ahl-i Kitab.


The Saudis apply the law that way but there are definitely ulema which
don't interpret the Quran that way and 1) maintain the distinction
between Pagans and People of the Book (Ahl al-Kitab) and 2) would even
say it is halal for straight up Pagans to visit as long as they don't
stay.(this is mentioned in one of the links I provided elsewhere in
this thread)


 So if you want to shake

hands I'm not going to treat you like najas. And if you serve some
good vegetarian food or seafood (which is what I eat for myself)  
then

I'd be happy to partake.


As would most Muslims living in the US. It is only in predominantly
Muslim countries that we are likely to face discrimination.


In terms of the particular religious question under discussion (ritual
impurity) this is an interpretation limited primarily to Iran, not the
Muslim world as a whole.


 Marriage is a tricky question. Officially,

neither Christianity nor Judaism really approve of intermarriage.

So

Islam is actually more inclusive by allowing marriage with People of
the Book. (And then the question is whether Bahais count under that
category)



As you know Christianity is pretty broad. Even Catholics are allowed
to intermarry now. It is mostly only evangelicals disapprove,


It isn't that the rules change. If you look up a Catechism of the
Catholic Church and look at what is says about marriage, marriage is
still a sacrament and so  it can still only happen between baptized
Christians. And Catholics are a majority of Christians worldwide. In
any case, the Bible still says "Be not yoked with unbelievers".


Judaism is more
tolerant of women intermarrying than men. Islam is just the opposite.
Men can intermarry but not women.


I think you are mischaracterizing this. Not to marry non-Jews (of
either sex) is one of the 613 commandments of the Torah. And even if
it wasn't a violation of what is seen as a divine commandment, it is
seen as leading to the dissolution of the Jewish community and is
often described as finishing up where Hitler left off... Now,
according to Judaism a child who is born to a Jewish mother is Jewish.
So the point isn't that Judaism is tolerant of women intermarrying..
In either case, intermarriage is not ok. But if a women intermarries,
the Jewish family and the rabbis who disapprove can find cold com

Re: Ablutions

[Iskandar Hai, M.D.]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
I think it would be a great idea if Gilberto or Matt ask Sistani or  
Fazel Lankarani about Baha'is specifically, if they consider us  
Baha'is as najas infidels apostates or kAAfir or mushrik.


Dear Matt and Gilberto, will you both kindly do ask this question in  
separate letters from the Shiah Ayatollahs Lankarani, Khamenei, and  
Sistani and from other leading Sunni mufti scholars?



Best regards

Iskandar





Sent from my iPod

On Jun 23, 2010, at 2:20 AM, Susan Maneck  wrote:


The Baha'i Studies Listserv

You mean the same Imams whom Bahaullah called
" the manifestations of the power of God, and the
sources of His authority, and the repositories of His knowledge, and
the daysprings of His commandments."?


As I said, I don't know how authentic those ahadith are.


I'm not saying that people aren't being mistreated. I'm primarily
questioning how the mistreatment is being framed. You want to blame
Islam or Muslims as Muslims.


I believe the issue was najas, not Islam or Muslims.


You are missing the point. I'm not saying that it is "just" Jews. If
anything, it is "just" Persians (of a certain era). Maybe you should
blame the Safavids and their legacy instead of Islam.


I think the fact that the Safavids forcibly converted Iran to Shi'ism
was a problem, but the intolerance towards religious minorities was
introduced by the 'ulama brought in from Iraq, so it isn't just an
Iranian thing.


I think you are mischaracterizing what "the ulama" are saying. And
they don't speak with one voice. Grand Ayatolla Sistani and Grand
Ayatollah Fazel Lankarani both explicitly hold that Jews and
Christians are ritually clean. And Sistani is basically the highest
ranking 12-er cleric in Iraq.


If they say Baha'is are not najas I'll be impressed.

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Re: Hidden Words Persian 77

[Iskandar Hai, M.D.]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Dear Firouz:

This has been explained by Abdu'l-Baha and by Shoghi Effendi.there is  
a file in one of the issues of the Baha'i Studies Review a few years  
ago that has compiled the interpretations.


Best regards
Iskandar





Sent from my iPod

On Jun 23, 2010, at 2:41 AM, Firouz  wrote:

> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
>
> Dear All,
>
> I have a question about the Hidden Words Persian 77.
>
> O SON OF JUSTICE! In the night-season the beauty of the immortal  
> Being hath repaired from the emerald height of fidelity unto the  
> Sadratu’l-Muntahá, and wept with such a weeping that the concourse  
> on high and the dwellers of the realms above wailed at His lamenting 
> . Whereupon there was asked, Why the wailing and weeping? He made re 
> ply: As bidden I waited expectant upon the hill of faithfulness, yet 
>  inhaled not from them that dwell on earth the fragrance of fidelity 
> . Then summoned to return I beheld, and lo! certain doves of holines 
> s were sore tried within the claws of the dogs of earth. Thereupon t 
> he Maid of heaven hastened forth unveiled and resplendent from Her m 
> ystic mansion, and asked of their names, and all were told but one.  
> And when urged, the first letter thereof was uttered, whereupon the  
> dwellers of the celestial chambers rushed forth out of their habitat 
> ion of glory. And whilst the second letter was pronounced they fell  
> down, one and all, upon the dust. At that moment a voice was heard f 
> rom the inmost shrine: “Thus far and no farther.” Verily We bear  
> witness to that which they have done and now are doing.
>
> I appreciate if someone could explain more about this Hidden Word.  
> Also my specific question is to what their refers to. Thanks so much  
> in advance.
>
> Best regards,
> Firouz
>
>
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Re: Ablutions

[Gilberto Simpson]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Susan, I don't think you understood what I said.

On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 1:57 AM, Susan Maneck  wrote:
> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
>> I would definitely read that ayat spiritually. (And it is my
>> understanding that that is the typical Hanafi view at least).

> I would too. The issue here was clearly profaning a holy site.

No. The verse in question is:
[Yusufali 9:28] O ye who believe! Truly the Pagans are unclean; so let
them not, after this year of theirs, approach the Sacred Mosque. And
if ye fear poverty, soon will Allah enrich you, if He wills, out of
His bounty, for Allah is All-knowing, All-wise.

And what I'm saying is that in the Hanafi view (note that the Hanafis
are the most populous interpretation of Sunni Islam... the Ottomans
and the Mughals were Hanafi), in the above verse, Pagans are being
described as unclean in a spiritual sense. NOT in a physical sense and
not in a sense that relates to laws about najas (ritual impurity) and
should not be used to justify a social system where non-Muslims have
cooties.


> Personally  Muslims do not offend me by not letting me go to Mecca any
> more than Zoroastrians offend me by not letting me into their Fire
> Temples. However, when a Jew or a Zoroastrian can't go out when it is
> raining for fear he will rub up against a Muslim and pollute them,
> that is another question.

Sure. And that particular interpretation was limited to a particular
time and a particular place in a particular culture. And other Muslims
in most other places in most other times interpreted those rules
differently. So that suggest, instead of blaming all Muslims
everywhere you should focus on what factors in Safavid society led
them to set up a system which discriminated against people in those
particular ways.

>  (And do
>> you think that Bahais count as Idolaters?)
>
> The question really is how do Muslims regard us? As you know, this
> verse came to be applied to all non-Muslims even the Ahl-i Kitab.

The Saudis apply the law that way but there are definitely ulema which
don't interpret the Quran that way and 1) maintain the distinction
between Pagans and People of the Book (Ahl al-Kitab) and 2) would even
say it is halal for straight up Pagans to visit as long as they don't
stay.(this is mentioned in one of the links I provided elsewhere in
this thread)

>  So if you want to shake
>> hands I'm not going to treat you like najas. And if you serve some
>> good vegetarian food or seafood (which is what I eat for myself) then
>> I'd be happy to partake.
>
> As would most Muslims living in the US. It is only in predominantly
> Muslim countries that we are likely to face discrimination.

In terms of the particular religious question under discussion (ritual
impurity) this is an interpretation limited primarily to Iran, not the
Muslim world as a whole.

>  Marriage is a tricky question. Officially,
>> neither Christianity nor Judaism really approve of intermarriage.
> So
>> Islam is actually more inclusive by allowing marriage with People of
>> the Book. (And then the question is whether Bahais count under that
>> category)

> As you know Christianity is pretty broad. Even Catholics are allowed
> to intermarry now. It is mostly only evangelicals disapprove,

It isn't that the rules change. If you look up a Catechism of the
Catholic Church and look at what is says about marriage, marriage is
still a sacrament and so  it can still only happen between baptized
Christians. And Catholics are a majority of Christians worldwide. In
any case, the Bible still says "Be not yoked with unbelievers".

> Judaism is more
> tolerant of women intermarrying than men. Islam is just the opposite.
> Men can intermarry but not women.

I think you are mischaracterizing this. Not to marry non-Jews (of
either sex) is one of the 613 commandments of the Torah. And even if
it wasn't a violation of what is seen as a divine commandment, it is
seen as leading to the dissolution of the Jewish community and is
often described as finishing up where Hitler left off... Now,
according to Judaism a child who is born to a Jewish mother is Jewish.
So the point isn't that Judaism is tolerant of women intermarrying..
In either case, intermarriage is not ok. But if a women intermarries,
the Jewish family and the rabbis who disapprove can find cold comfort
in the thought "Oh at least the kids will be Jewish"

>

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help with a story

[Sen & Sonja]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
On 22 Jun 2010 at 19:55, Hasan Elías wrote:

> I'm trying to remember a story (probably in Star of West) when
> 'Abdu'l-Bahá was walking and a believer was walking behind him, the
> believer want to be like Him treading on his steps, then something
> happen (I don't remember) and Abdu'l-Bahá turn and said something like
> it is not good to imitate, and the path of service is hard.   Thanks.

Sounds like Lua Getsinger, stung by a scorpion when standing in the 
footsteps of the Master. 

* Anecdote A55 : "Marchant sur les traces d'Abdu'l-Bahá..."

Des notes de pèlerins nous racontent qu'un jour Lua Getsinger était 
en train de marcher avec Abdu'l-Bahá et quelques amis sur le sable 
blanc au bord de la mer près d'Akka.
Lua, dit-on, se rendit compte soudain des traces d'Abdu'l-Bahá sur le 
sable mou. Tout à fait spontanément elle marcha derrière Abdu'l-Bahá 
et commença à suivre la trace de Ses pas en plaçant ses souliers un 
par un dans chacune des empreintes de Ses pieds. On raconte que, sans 
se retourner, Abdu'l-Bahá dit brusquement, "Qu'es-tu en train de 
faire ?"
Lua répliqua réjouie: "Je suis en train de suivre vos pas."
Abdu'l-Bahá resta silencieux pendant un moment. Puis Il répéta avec 
plus de force, "Lua, qu'es-tu en train de faire ?"
Elle dit: "Je suis en train de marcher dans vos pas, Maître Bien-
Aimé."
Sans dire un mot, Abdu'l-Bahá fit un grand pas.
Lua, dit-on, ressentit un coup de froid alors qu'elle réalisait 
l'extrême futilité et prétention de la part d'un instrument aussi 
faible qu'elle qui avait osé aspirer à marcher sur les traces du 
"Mystère de Dieu".
Soudain, Lua ressentit une douleur déchirante au niveau de la 
cheville. Elle regarda le sol. Elle avait été piquée par un scorpion. 
Elle cria, mais le Maître ne se retourna pas ni ne ralentit son 
enjambée.
Lua marchait avec grande difficulté. Sa cheville grossissait 
rapidement. La douleur devenait intense. Mais elle serra les dents et 
se força à continuer.
Lorsque la souffrance fut presque insupportable, Abdu'l-Bahá se 
retourna et revint vers elle.
"Ceci", Lui dit-Il, "montre ce que cela veut dire que de marcher sur 
mes traces."
Abdu'l-Bahá lui toucha gentiment la tête avec la main. Les yeux de 
Lua étaient embuées de larmes. Elle comprit la leçon.
Le Maître se retourna et continua Son chemin, Lua marchant en boitant 
derrière Lui comme elle le pouvait. Elle sentit la douleur diminuer 
progressivement, alors qu'elle poursuivait son chemin avec son Maître 
Bien-Aimé.
(traduction de courtoisie du livre "Vignettes from the life of Abdu'l-
Bahá", anecdote n° II.126 page 124)

http://www.bahai-biblio.org/centre-
doc/ouvrage/anecdote/anecdote1.htm#A55

Piff records 3 variants in Bahai Lore page 308; one as above, one 
without the scorpion but Abdu'l-Baha observes that it is hard to 
follow in my footsteps, one with the scorpion but with the moral that 
Abdu'l-Baha had also stepped on the scorpion, but he had divine 
protection.

In another version I've heard, Lua is sick for some days, but the 
bite of the scorpion heals her of a chronic condition. 

Sen


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