RE: Self Identification (was: Re: Devastating stampede)

[firestorm]

susan,
 i am familair with the definition of countqerclaim. please note that in the 
definitions u google, each makes the same statemt i did. a cunterclaim is part 
of reply to a claim. "in essence" a suit within a suit...but not de legis a 
seperate suit.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/rules/frcp/Rule13.htm
:"III. PLEADINGS AND MOTIONS > Rule 13.  Prev | Next 
Rule 13. Counterclaim and Cross-Claim

(a) Compulsory Counterclaims.
A pleading shall state as a counterclaim any claim which at the time of serving 
the pleading the pleader has against any opposing party, if it arises out of 
the transaction or occurrence that is the subject matter of the opposing 
party's claim and does not require for its adjudication the presence of third 
parties of whom the court cannot acquire jurisdiction"
 now, if we check the public record:
:"1. There being independent grounds for federal jurisdiction, the counterclaim 
stands as a separate and independent action under Rule 13 of the Federal Rules 
of Civil Procedure. "
it is then the opinion of the presiding judge that there was no other suit 
filed here, but rather counterclaim in the peladinglike i said.

 if there was indeed a seprate suit seperate filing, i would love to see 
documentation.
 we are left with the statement from the UHJ in remey&those who that property 
rights, physical protperty rights were an issue in a suit. 
  we have 2 docket numbers. docket numbers are assigned by the court clerk when 
a plaintiff's filing has been accepted as being properly filed. 
   we have mention in the decisoon we aer accessing to there being another 
suit, also doismissed. said suit if filed by nsa/usa woulda been a victory for 
some re,eyite claim, and we'd still be heaging about it from elm street as 
freedom of something or toerh. logic then says this dismissed suit was filed by 
the remeyites. 
 this allows my statement to stand utterly congurent with the statement from 
the House in remey&those.


 
 
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RE: Self Identification (was: Re: Devastating stampede)

[Susan Maneck]

"I have heard that Remey was not all that happy about Shoghi Effendi 
insisting on certain changes to his architectural designs for the 
Faith, especially the Mt. Carmel temple.  However, such reports seem 
to have originated after his defection, so . . . . ."

Dear Don, 

The quotation I gave was from one of his followers. 

warmest, Susan 


 
 
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RE: Self Identification (was: Re: Devastating stampede)

[Don Calkins]

At 9:09 AM -0500 9/20/05, Susan Maneck wrote:
Remey had to assume them, that "this would not be like under Shoghi 
Effendi, who had to control everything in the Baha'i Faith" [which 
says volumes about his attitude towards the Guardian.]


I have heard that Remey was not all that happy about Shoghi Effendi 
insisting on certain changes to his architectural designs for the 
Faith, especially the Mt. Carmel temple.  However, such reports seem 
to have originated after his defection, so . . . . .


Don C

--
-.-.-.-.-
He who believes himself spiritual proves he is not.





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RE: Self Identification (was: Re: Devastating stampede)

[Susan Maneck]

"A counterclaim is not a separate suit. It is part of the required answer to 
the plaintiffs allegations, should there be such to be made."

Dear Gabriel, 

Usually it is a countersuit and it was in this case. It gets settled at the 
same time as the original case. Here's some definitions of a counterclaim. 
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&oi=defmore&q=define:counterclaim

There is another reason Remey might have withdrawn from the second trial. There 
was a certain amount of reluctance among some of the Remeyites to have any 
administration whatsoever. Remey had to assume them, that "this would not be 
like under Shoghi Effendi, who had to control everything in the Baha'i Faith" 
[which says volumes about his attitude towards the Guardian.] By 1966 Mason was 
having disagreements with the NSA he had himself established and therefore had 
it dissolved. At that point he asserted that Shoghi Effendi had made the 
mistake of establishing a "Babi Administration" rather than a Baha'i one and 
that Abdu'l-Baha stated the Faith should never be organized. Horace Holley 
supposedly led Shoghi Effendi astray. That's when the Remeyites began to 
splinter into several different groups, some of whom argued that Mason Remey 
had handed the Guardianship over to others and that this accounted for his 
less-than-infallible statements, others insisted that Remey was never Guardian 
to begin with, but just a 'regent', etc. 

warmest, Susan 



 
 
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RE: Self Identification (was: Re: Devastating stampede)

[firestorm]

susan,
 we can split the difference.
 as i re-read that lovely letter "remey and those who" i see the difference in 
our recall. 
 i have a dim memory of another historical account of this, but since i can't 
provenance it ..it's like whatever. 
   on the other hand,
;"The National Spiritual Assembly of the Baha'is of the United States of 
America Under the Hereditary Guardianship, Inc. 
v.
The National Spiritual Assembly of the Baha'is of the United States of America, 
Inc. 
No. 64 C 1878 
Action by The National Spiritual Assembly of the Baha'is of the United States 
of America Under the Hereditary Guardianship, Inc., against The National 
Spiritual Assembly of the Baha'is of the United States of America, Inc., 
wherein defendant counterclaims for unfair competition and trademark 
infringement. Judgement for defendant on counterclaim"

A counterclaim is not a separate suit. It is part of the required answer to the 
plaintiffs allegations, should there be such to be made.
  I didnt pay the contractor because the work was shoddy >>>and my health 
suffered to the tune of 2 doctor's visits<<< is an example of  a hypothetical 
counterclaim.
 by way of evidencing this, (not a logical proof but a reasoned one) 
likewsie, as you read the doc from the House u can see reference to "a second 
trial".. not an appeal.
"As the New Mexico group was preparing for a second trial, Remey suddenly 
directed them to withdraw from the proceedings "regardless of the 
consequences". "
 and in the decision as recorded by robert stauffer at the library of the 
federal court action, u see 2 different docket numbers, indicating 2 
filings...two trials.
   thus, it would be my contention unless shown documentation, that remey told 
his handful to stop..not on appeal, but on the suit filed second.
the court documentation that i can access only concerns itself with the 
name/intelelelctual property issue. since the House says the right to property 
was likwise involved, i assume this was the issue in the 2nd suit.  another 
reason for remey to have futilely ordered a desist is that it would either (a) 
cuase he and his to appear to be only in it for the money) (b) had some 
momentary clarity as to how far he had fallen. 

No. 64 C 1878 
Decided June 28, 1966

65 C 1647.


if somebody with better access than i can pull these dockets we can establsh 
better what's what.


 
 
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Re: Self Identification (was: Re: Devastating stampede)

[firestorm]

scott,
 :"In legal terms it had nothing to do with self-identification. To identify 
the ORGANIZATION, the followers of Remey had to switch to "Orthodox Baha`i" to 
identify the organization in some manner as separate from the organization 
known as "Baha`i"."
 sure. that however has nothing to do with what i was talking about.
   the issue is, if u see the post to which i was replying, >>who took who to 
court.<<
http://bahai-library.com/documents/cbs.mexico.lawsuit.html
   the broader principle thence being, based on history, is there some emerging 
concept to deal with people's self-identifiaction as Baha'is?
   the one i find is that the Faith leaves such people to their own devices, 
unless said devices conflict with the clear truth.
   if a disucussion i am in does not conduce to affecting behaviour, imho it 
begins to resemble beginning and ending with words.
   

 
 
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Re: Devastating stampede

[Rich Ater]

But those whose names were removed from the roles were also acting in
violation of the Covenant. In those cases the Universal House of Justice
decided their understanding of the Covenant was not sufficient to warrant
calling them Baha'is period.

warmest, Susan

 


Susan,
   I can appreciate that there are some fine distinctions here. The 
only thing I can add is that only the House can say who is or isn't a 
CB. I'm just saying that once named so they are beyond the pale, as it 
were, and no longer Baha'is. As to others, I think they're a different 
categorie, but that is just oppinion. Either way, they are not 
considered Baha'is anymore by the House, and therefore, not by the 
community. That was my only point and I feel like it is getting lost in 
a lot of verbiage, much of my own creation.

Rich





 







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RE: Self Identification (was: Re: Devastating stampede)

[Susan Maneck]

"imho the issue of who took who to court vis a vis remey needs clarified. it 
was the remeyites who took nsa/usa to court.
too late to drop the case, remey oerdered them to desist. we don;t know why."

Dear Gabriel, 

You've got this a little garbled.  It was the Remeyites who filed suit against 
the NSA laying claim to both their name and their property. The NSA then filed 
a counter-suit for copyright infringement. Both suits were settled in the same 
court case with the Remeyites losing both. The Remeyites originally intended to 
appeal the court's decision but Mason Remey told them to withdraw the suit. I 
expect this was because the only viable grounds for appeal would be to say you 
can't copyright a religion. But to do that they would have to give up the 
claims of their original suit. 

There was a more recent copyright case involving the Jensenites who were using 
the term UHJ to refer to their administrative council. At the behest of the 
Universal House of Justice our own NSA filed suit. We lost that suit on the 
technical grounds that it could be established the acronym "UHJ" was not used 
in any official Baha'i correspondence and that in fact, they had disapproved 
it. You can't claim copyright on the use of an acronym you reject. The 
Jensenites, however, have misrepresented this case as indicating that the 
courts  (actually it was taken to mediation) had ruled that they were the 
'true' Baha'i Faith. 

warmest, Susan 



 
 
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Re: Self Identification (was: Re: Devastating stampede)

[Scott Saylors]

firestorm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

on the other hand, the Faith firmly and clearly stood Its ground against the remeyite claims of authority, ownership and right of identification.clarifying this method of action is perhaps useful to this discussion.
 
In legal terms it had nothing to do with self-identification. To identify the ORGANIZATION, the followers of Remey had to switch to "Orthodox Baha`i" to identify the organization in some manner as separate from the organization known as "Baha`i".
Legal ID of an organization, and a personal acceptance of the Founder of a Faith are comparing apples and mackerals.
 
Regards, Scott
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 



 
 

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As human beings, we are endowed with freedom of choice, and we cannot shuffle off our responsibility upon the shoulders of God or nature. We must shoulder it ourselves. It is our responsibility. Arnold J. Toynbee 

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Re: Self Identification (was: Re: Devastating stampede)

[firestorm]

imho the issue of who took who to court vis a vis remey needs clarified. it was 
the remeyites who took nsa/usa to court.
too late to drop the case, remey oerdered them to desist. we don;t know why. 
one reason might be that the concrete identification information of 64 or so 
remeyite households and 12,000 or so Baha'i households became public 
information as a result. 
 another might be that the federal ourts ruled that the properties of the 
Baha'i Faith including It's name<<< and iconography were the property 
of the UHJ, being controlled by nsa/usa as agent for the UHJ. 
   The Faith did not take action against the remeyites. It left them to their 
own devices, as is instructed in the 
W&T and other documents.
   It did not pursue, harass, etc.
 on the other hand, the Faith firmly and clearly stood Its ground against the 
remeyite claims of authority, ownership and right of identification.
   clarifying this method of action is perhaps useful to this discussion.

 
 
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RE: Devastating stampede

[Max Jasper]

Title: Message







"On the appearance of 
fearful natural events call ye to mind the might and majesty of your Lord, He 
Who heareth and seeth all, and say, 'Dominion is God's, the Lord of the seen and 
the unseen, the Lord of creation' ."   -- 
Bahá'u'lláh 




 
 

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RE: Devastating stampede

[Susan Maneck]

>Were that simply the case, then why not just remove them from the roles
>rather than declare them Covenant breakers?
>
>
Principally because of the act of trying to destroy the Covenant.
Rich

Dear Rich,

But those whose names were removed from the roles were also acting in
violation of the Covenant. In those cases the Universal House of Justice
decided their understanding of the Covenant was not sufficient to warrant
calling them Baha'is period.

warmest, Susan
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Re: Self Identification (was: Re: Devastating stampede)

[Mark A. Foster]

Folks,

The following is taken from chapter 5 of Baha'u'llah and the New Era, which 
(along with chapters 1 and 2) was corrected by `Abdu'l-Baha. (Only part of 
chapter 3 was corrected by Him.) Note `Abdu'l-Baha's very broad definitions of 
being a Baha'i.
---
"When asked on one occasion: 'What is a Baha'i' `Abdu'l-Baha replied: 'To be a 
Baha'i simply means to love all the world; to love humanity and try to serve 
it; to work for universal peace and universal brotherhood.' On another occasion 
He defined a Baha'i as "one endowed with all the perfections of man in 
activity." In one of His London talks He said that a man may be a Baha'i even 
if He has never heard the name of Baha'u'llah. He added: -- 

"'The man who lives the life according to the teachings of Baha'u'llah is 
already a Baha'i. On the other hand, a man may call himself a Baha'i for fifty 
years, and if he does not live the life he is not a Baha'i. An ugly man may 
call himself handsome, but he deceives no one, and a black man may call himself 
white, yet he deceives no one, not even himself.' 

"'One who does not know God's Messengers, however, is like a plant growing in 
the shade. Although it knows not the sun, it is, nevertheless, absolutely 
dependent on it. The great Prophets are spirits suns, and Baha'u'llah is the 
sun of this "day" in which we live. The suns of former days have warmed and 
vivified the world, and had those suns not shone, the earth would not be cold 
and dead, but it is the sunshine of today that alone can ripen the fruits which 
the suns of former days have kissed into life.'"
---
My point in posting this excerpt from Esslemont's book is to suggest that 
"Baha'i," as a word or label, has been given more than one definition in the 
history of the Baha'i Faith. One of those definitions, which was sometimes 
employed by `Abdu'l-Baha, was broad and encompassing. Another, which was used 
by Shoghi Effendi, the House of Justice, and also, on occasion, `Abdu'l-Baha, 
is more institutional and communal.

Speaking as an individual Baha'i, *not* as a sociologist, I do not feel that, 
using `Abdu'l-Baha's broad definition, we can, or should, *ever* discourage 
people from having, or expressing, a Baha'i identity, irrespective of whether 
they are members of the Baha'i International Community. Personally, I would 
like to see more of this self-definition among people not members of the Baha'i 
International Community.

I also wonder whether statements such as the following, aside from any 
hyperbole, might be referring to `Abdu'l-Baha's broad definition of a Baha'i or 
believer:

"When the victory arriveth, every man shall profess himself as believer and 
shall hasten to the shelter of God's Faith. Happy are they who in the days of 
world-encompassing trials have stood fast in the Cause and refused to swerve 
from its truth."
-- Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p.319

Via moderna, Mark A. Foster . http://markfoster.net
... [a] word is ... a universal. - William of Ockham
Structurization Tech: http://tech.structurization.com 



 
 
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Re: Self Identification (was: Re: Devastating stampede)

[Rich Ater]

Tim,
   Those were wonderful points and I agree with them. It is only when 
the claims effect how Baha'is are percieved by others that I have an 
issue. I believe that when the Remeyites tried to use the name of the 
Baha'i Faith in the early sixties, they were taken to court and told 
that they could not, it was at that point that they started refering to 
themselves as Orthodox Baha'is.

Rich




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Re: Devastating stampede

[Rich Ater]

Susan Maneck wrote:


"Would it not be the case that
CBs also no longer fot the criteria for being Baha'is?"

Were that simply the case, then why not just remove them from the roles
rather than declare them Covenant breakers?
 


Principally because of the act of trying to destroy the Covenant.
Rich

 






   









 







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Re: Self Identification (was: Re: Devastating stampede)

[Mark A. Foster]

Tim,

At 09:41 AM 9/17/2005, you wrote:
>>I assume you restrict this principle to assertions of belief. I think you 
>>would not allow someone to  perform heart surgery on you, based on nothing 
>>more than his assertion that he is a surgeon.<<

I don't see the connection between religious identity, which is, as you say, a 
matter of belief, and surgery, which is a procedure requiring a license. There 
is no license required for religious conviction.

>>If self-identification stops at just that, that is if a person does not use 
>>self-identification to gain the privileges or responsibilities of membership 
>>in some organization, then I agree it's fine to simply take the person's word 
>>for who he is.<<

Organizations, like individuals, can have their own self-definitions.

>>If a person asserts that he is a Baha'i, and wants to attend Feast, then I 
>>personally  don't need to ask for verification of his membership. But I think 
>>the Assembly should do that.<<

A local spiritual assembly can determine whether someone is a member of the 
Baha'i Faith, and entitled to attend nineteen-day feasts, not whether she is a 
Baha'i - either in terms of personal identification or in `Abdu'l-Baha's sense 
of the word.

Via moderna, Mark A. Foster . http://markfoster.net
... [a] word is ... a universal. - William of Ockham
Structurization Tech: http://tech.structurization.com 



 
 
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Re: Self Identification (was: Re: Devastating stampede)

[Tim Nolan]

Hi Mark,
 
>Being a *member* of the Baha'i Faith entails being part of an organization. I, for one, would never judge that someone was not a Baha'i because she or he did not belong to the Baha'i International Community. <
 
I agree.  Only God knows who really is a Baha'i.  Even being a member
of the Baha'i community does not guarantee that I am a Baha'i, in God's eyes.
 
>No "outward reality" is required for self-identification except an    assertion.<
 
I assume you restrict this principle to assertions of belief.
I think you would not allow someone to  perform heart surgery on
you, based on nothing more than his assertion that he is a surgeon.
That is not merely a question of whether the person belongs to an organization
of surgeons. What matters is whether the person has the knowledge and skills
to do surgery well, and whether there is any outside confirmation of that
beyond his own self-identification.
 
If self-identification stops at just that, that is if a person
does not use self-identification to gain the privileges or responsibilities
of membership in some organization, then I agree it's fine to simply take
the person's word for who he is.   But if there are any practical
consequences implied by the self-identification, then I would want
some confirming evidence that the self identification was valid.
 
If a person asserts that he is a Baha'i, and wants to attend Feast,
then I personally  don't need to ask for verification of his membership.
But I think the Assembly should do that.
 
Tim Nolan



 
 

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Re: Self Identification (was: Re: Devastating stampede)

[Mark A. Foster]

Tim,

At 07:21 AM 9/17/2005, you wrote:
>>A person can identify himself as anything. That provides insight into how the 
>>person sees himself.<< 

In the sociology of religion, such identifications are generally regarded as 
important for simple categorization, such as in survey research. Whether they 
provide insight into self-identity, in some broader sense, is probably a matter 
for cognitive and social psychologists.

>>Sociologists excepted of course :^)<<

I would accept that person's self-definition even if I were not a sociologist. 
There is a difference between self-definition and whether a person satisfies 
the criteria for membership in a religious organization.

>>If a person describes himself as an expert in the Chinese language, people 
>>will expect him to be able to read and translate a Chinese newspaper. If a 
>>person describes himself as a Baha'i, other Baha'is will have certain 
>>expectations, based on the statements of Shoghi Effendi and the House of 
>>Justice.<<

Claiming to be able to translate a Chinese newspaper is an easily verifiable 
empirical statement. You place a newspaper before the person and request the 
translation. 

Similarly, identifying with the Baha'i Faith is also empirical. You ask a 
person if she or he has that identity. Short of mind-reading, that is the best 
one can do.

>>I do understand the point that membership in an organization, is not the same 
>>as simple self-identification.  But in this contingent world, being a Baha'i 
>>entails being part of an organization.<<

Being a *member* of the Baha'i Faith entails being part of an organization. I, 
for one, would never judge that someone was not a Baha'i because she or he did 
not belong to the Baha'i International Community. `Abdu'l-Baha's definition of 
a Baha'i, which I accept, was very broad. On the other hand, Shoghi Effendi 
dealt primarily with the criteria for membership in a religious community.

>>But, in regular, everyday life, it isn't necessary to know another person's 
>>inward reality.  However, in this world, it sometimes is necessary to know 
>>whether a person's self-identification corresponds with outward reality.  For 
>>example, does the self-described carpenter actually know how to build a 
>>house?<<

No "outward reality" is required for self-identification except an assertion.

Via moderna, Mark A. Foster . http://markfoster.net
... [a] word is ... a universal. - William of Ockham
Structurization Tech: http://tech.structurization.com 



 
 
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Self Identification (was: Re: Devastating stampede)

[Tim Nolan]

Rich,
 
>It is in this  sense that I am saying that they are not Baha'is. As to others   identifying themselves as Baha'is, I think they can als identify   themselves as flying squirrels, but they don't meet the criteria for   that either and I'm not going to tell them that they are either.<
 
While in the United States, Abdu'l Baha met a man who claimed to
be Moses.  He did not make any attempt to explain to the man
that he couldn't possibly be Moses.  Instead, Abdu'l Baha
said "Wonderful!, you can come with Me while I go to the homes
 of poor people.".   Then He took the man with Him  to visit poor people 
and to help them.  When the man realized the  consequences of his claim 
to be Moses, he became quiet, and found an opportunity to leave
Abdu'l Baha.
 
Self-identification has consequences.
 
A person can identify himself as anything. That provides
insight into how the person sees himself. The self
identification may correspond to reality outside the person,
or it may not correspond.  While I agree that it's usually rude
and unproductive to argue with a person about how he
sees himself, that doesn't mean the rest of the world
is obligated to  accept his self description at face value.
Sociologists excepted of course :^)
 
Any self description has consequences.
For example, if a person describes himself as a professional carpenter,
people will expect him to be able to build a house.
 
If a person describes himself as an expert in the Chinese language,
people will expect him to be able to read and translate a Chinese
newspaper.
If a person describes himself as a Baha'i, other Baha'is will
have certain expectations, based on the statements of
Shoghi Effendi and the House of Justice.  I do understand
the point that membership in an organization, is not the same as 
simple self-identification.  But in this contingent world,
being a Baha'i entails being part of an organization.
They go hand in hand.
As to whether covenant-breakers are still Baha'is, in
some sense, I don't know, and I don't care.  I leave it up to the 
House of Justice to define that, or to leave it undefined.
 
Who a person truly is, in his essence, is between that individual and God,
and no one else can  know  another's inner reality.
But, in regular, everyday life, it isn't necessary to know another
person's inward reality.  However, in this world, it sometimes
is necessary to know whether a person's self-identification
corresponds with outward reality.  For example,
does the self-described carpenter actually know how to build a house?
 
Tim Nolan



 
 

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RE: Devastating stampede

[Susan Maneck]

"Would it not be the case that
CBs also no longer fot the criteria for being Baha'is?"

Were that simply the case, then why not just remove them from the roles
rather than declare them Covenant breakers?

>
>
>
>
>
>





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Re: Devastating stampede

[Rich Ater]

To my knowledge this is not the case. I've never seen the House say anything
to the effect that they *never* were really Baha'is only that they did not
meet the qualifications of membership at the time they were disenrolled.

People change.

warmest, Susan
 


Susan
   Excellent point and I stand corrected. Would it not be the case that 
CBs also no longer fot the criteria for being Baha'is? It is in this 
sense that I am saying that they are not Baha'is. As to others 
identifying themselves as Baha'is, I think they can als identify 
themselves as flying squirrels, but they don't meet the criteria for 
that either and I'm not going to tell them that they are either.

Rich






 







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Re: Devastating stampede

[Rich Ater]

 As to what I'm going to do, I'm not going to
say they're Baha'i when I don't believe they are.

 


Fine, don't. What are you going to do about it? Hit them with a
trademark violation?

I ask again because you did not answer.

I left my quote above as to what I do in these circumstances. When 
asked, which is rarely, I say they are not Baha'i and list the criteria 
under which the administrative order says that someone is Baha'i.




 


The faith should be attractive to the people you wish to teach.

The Faith is most attractive when we are honest and stop trying to give 
answers that we hope are pleasing, or at least not uncomfortable. I've 
seen trying to answer with what we think others want blow up. I was 
addressing an interfaith group and a women asked if it was true that 
women were not allowed on the House. I said yes and that I didn't know 
why it was so. She accepted this, I've seen others get into real binds 
trying to justify it so that societal norms weren't ruffled.

Rich

 


Regards,

Scott



 







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RE: Devastating stampede

[Susan Maneck]

"If
I understand i,t the people that the House disenrolled were considered
to have never been Baha'is in the first place, whereas Covenant Breakers
were Baha'is and ceased to be so after breaking the covenant."

Dear Rich,

To my knowledge this is not the case. I've never seen the House say anything
to the effect that they *never* were really Baha'is only that they did not
meet the qualifications of membership at the time they were disenrolled.

People change.

warmest, Susan



 
 
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Re: Devastating stampede

[Rich Ater]

My point is that the Universal House of Justice apparently *does* consider
Covenant breakers Baha'is on some level but not those it has removed from
the roles. Otherwise the ones they removed from the roles would have been
declared CBs as well.

warmest, Susan
 


Susan,

Maybe it's a matter of semantics here. They had to be Baha'is to break 
the Baha'i Covenant, but the moment they broke the Covenant, or The 
House stated that they broke the Covenant, they ceased to be Baha'is. If 
I understand i,t the people that the House disenrolled were considered 
to have never been Baha'is in the first place, whereas Covenant Breakers 
were Baha'is and ceased to be so after breaking the covenant. As to the 
followers of Covenant Breakers they never have been Baha'is.

Rich






 







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Re: Devastating stampede

[Iskandar Hai]

Yesterday, Wednesday, was another bad day: a dozen acts of violence in 
one day with more than 150 people dead in one single day in Baghdad, 
just two weeks after the horrible and tragically devastating stampede of 
Wednesday August 31st 2005 when more than 1000 persons perished. 

Iskandar


 
 
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Re: Devastating stampede

[Scott Saylors]

Rich Ater <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> >> So? What are you going to do hit them with a trademark violation> for CLAIMING to be Baha`i?>> Its pointless to try to stop "self-identification" its against> everything western society holds dear.>> >Scott,Who says I care about everything Western Society holds dear? The Master didn't, neither did the Guardian. Western Society has it's good points and its bad points. As to what I'm going to do, I'm not going to say they're Baha'i when I don't believe they are.
 
Fine, don't. What are you going to do about it? Hit them with a trademark violation?
I ask again because you did not answer.RichPSIsn't saying that trying to stop self identification is against everything that western society holds dear a bit of an over statement.
 
The faith should be attractive to the people you wish to teach.
 
Regards,
Scott



 
 

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RE: Devastating stampede

[Susan Maneck]

I think that is also why the Guardian called them *internal* enemies.

Dear Mark,

Yeah, because he uses the term to apply to those who have already been
thrown out of the Faith.

warmest, Susan



 
 
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RE: Devastating stampede

[Mark A. Foster]

Susan,

At 10:22 PM 9/14/2005, you wrote:
>>My point is that the Universal House of Justice apparently *does* consider 
>>Covenant breakers Baha'is on some level but not those it has removed from the 
>>roles. Otherwise the ones they removed from the roles would have been 
>>declared CBs as well.<<

I think that is also why the Guardian called them *internal* enemies. 

Via moderna, Mark A. Foster . http://markfoster.net
... [a] word is ... a universal. - William of Ockham
Structurization Tech: http://tech.structurization.com 



 
 
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RE: Devastating stampede

[Susan Maneck]

>
>Wouldn't that be true of those who were removed from the roles, as well?
>
>There must be some distinction.

Dear Rich,

My point is that the Universal House of Justice apparently *does* consider
Covenant breakers Baha'is on some level but not those it has removed from
the roles. Otherwise the ones they removed from the roles would have been
declared CBs as well.

warmest, Susan



 
 
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Re: Devastating stampede

[Rich Ater]

 


So? What are you going to do hit them with a trademark violation
for CLAIMING to be Baha`i?

Its pointless to try to stop "self-identification" its against
everything western society holds dear.

 


Scott,
   Who says I care about everything Western Society holds dear? The 
Master didn't, neither did the Guardian. Western Society has it's good 
points and its bad points. As to what I'm going to do, I'm not going to 
say they're Baha'i when I don't believe they are.

Rich
PS
Isn't saying that trying to stop self identification is against 
everything that western society holds dear a bit of an over statement.





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Re: Devastating stampede

[Scott Saylors]

Rich Ater <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>>Wouldn't that be true of those who were removed from the roles, as well? >>There must be some distinction. >>warmest, Susan > >Susna,I would agree, but I don't see your point. They're still not Baha'is, right?Rich
 
So? What are you going to do hit them with a trademark violation for CLAIMING to be Baha`i?
Its pointless to try to stop "self-identification" its against everything western society holds dear.
 
Regards,
 
Scott>> > > >The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you.__You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Unsubscribe: send a blank email!
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As human beings, we are endowed with freedom of choice, and we cannot shuffle off our responsibility upon the shoulders of God or nature. We must shoulder it ourselves. It is our responsibility. Arnold J. Toynbee 

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Re: Devastating stampede

[Rich Ater]

You are taking the passage out of context. It is addressed to religious
leaders, not scientists. The standards and sciences referred to are those of
Islamic theology.

warmest, Susan
 

No I'm not. I may be interpreting it differently than you, but I am not 
taking it out of context. The standards of modern materialism & 
secularism that are used to dismiss religion in general as well as the 
Faith in particular are just as aplicable to this verse as are the 
theological disputations of the Shi'a. I was reading some of EG Brown's 
memoirs the other day and he recounted a conversation he had with Mirza 
Haydar Ali, in which he posited a similar question regarding reason and 
revelation. Mirza Haydar Ali responded that reason must be used to find 
the Manifestation, but once He is found and accepted one must obey even 
if it goes against ones reason.


I'm not saying that we should become blind robots, but I also believe 
that reason has it's limitations. I believe that that was what Kant and 
Wittgenstein were getting at. Somethings go beyond reason, they are 
articles of faith and reason cfannot take you there. One of these is 
following what the Manifestation said. To bring it back to my original 
issue, Jesus said that there were many who would claim to speak in his 
name, but He will say I never knew you. Whom am I to believe, those who 
claim to speak in Jesus's name or Jesus? Baha'u'llah says if people 
don't follow the covenant, they are not Baha'is, that is the guideline 
I'm going by.


Rich







 







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Re: Devastating stampede

[Rich Ater]

Wouldn't that be true of those who were removed from the roles, as well? 

There must be some distinction. 

warmest, Susan 
 


Susna,
   I would agree, but I don't see your point. They're still not 
Baha'is, right?

Rich









 







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RE: Devastating stampede

[Susan Maneck]

"Ok, so now that is confusing. What is being attributed to Islamic
sciences which Bahais are saying not to do? Are you saying Bahais
don't do tafsirs? (I thought the Bab and Abdul-Baha specifically wrote
tafsirs, no?"

Dear Gilberto,

The 'ulama are simply being told not to judge Baha'u'llah's revelation by
their own theological standards, whatever they are.

warmest, Susan



 
 
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Re: Devastating stampede

[Gilberto Simpson]

> On 9/11/05, Susan Maneck <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> The Revelation also says, "Weigh not the Book of
> God with such standards and sciences as are current
> amongst you, for the Book itself is the unerring
> Balance established amongst men."

>(Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 56)
 
> Dear Rich,
 
> You are taking the passage out of context. It is addressed to religious
> leaders, not scientists. The standards and sciences referred to are those of
> Islamic theology.

Ok, so now that is confusing. What is being attributed to Islamic
sciences which Bahais are saying not to do? Are you saying Bahais
don't do tafsirs? (I thought the Bab and Abdul-Baha specifically wrote
tafsirs, no?)

Peace

Gilberto


 
 
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RE: Devastating stampede

[Susan Maneck]

The Revelation also says, "Weigh not the Book of
God with such standards and sciences as are current
amongst you, for the Book itself is the unerring
Balance established amongst men."

(Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 56)

Dear Rich,

You are taking the passage out of context. It is addressed to religious
leaders, not scientists. The standards and sciences referred to are those of
Islamic theology.

warmest, Susan




 
 
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RE: Devastating stampede

[Susan Maneck]

"An interesting point, but it could also be interpreted as they had 
been Baha'is, but are no longer."

Dear Rich, 

Wouldn't that be true of those who were removed from the roles, as well? 

There must be some distinction. 

warmest, Susan 






 
 
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Re: Devastating stampede

[Rich Ater]

Only this Revelation insists that religion becomes superstition when 
it discards reason.
 


Susan,
   The Revelation also says, "Weigh not the Book of
God with such standards and sciences as are current
amongst you, for the Book itself is the unerring
Balance established amongst men."

   (Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 56)

Rich






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Re: Devastating stampede

[Rich Ater]

 
Dear Rich,
 
My point is that if they *had* been considered Baha'is they would have 
been declared Covenant breakers. That acknowledges that Covenant 
breakers are indeed Baha'is in some sense of the word.
 
warmest, Susan
 
Susan,


   An interesting point, but it could also be interpreted as they had 
been Baha'is, but are no longer.

Rich

 







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Re: Devastating stampede

[Rich Ater]

  
  
 
The answer is "yes" and "no". They are not considered Baha`i's
by the administrative order. In that sense the administrative order
does not define them as Baha`i's. This is to their advantage, since if
they were considered and defined as "covenant breakers", this might
cause hardship to friends and family who would then have to consider
them covenant-breakers.
 
As to what they consider themselves, the administrative order
has "naught to say". They can call themselves Baha`i all they wish, I
say "okay" but they are not Baha`i's in good standing or any standing
at all. See they define themselves one way - to do so they have a
perfect right. I consider them another way, and I have a perfect right.
 
  
  

Scott,
    I can accept this. I guess from my perspective, what they consider
themselves isn't that important to me. They can consider themselves
stiped oppossums for all I care. My concern was with what the Baha'i
Community considers them. What what I'm hearing the community says they
are not Baha'is, I'm reminded of the story of the guy who moved to
Maine and was telling an old timer that he had lived in Maine for
twenty years and all his kids had been born in Maine so surely they
were Maine natives. The old timer replied, " My cat hed kittens in the
oven, that don't make them a casserole."

Rich





 
 

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Re: Devastating stampede

[Mark A. Foster]

Gilberto,

At 08:20 PM 9/9/2005, you wrote:
>>I don't think Mark's comments did that. I don't think there was any 
>>difficulty seperating Mark-with-a-Bahai-hat and Mark-with-a-sociologist-hat. 
>>He's been fairly clear on the distinction.<< 

Thanks. I try anyway. However, Baha'is obviously have different perspectives on 
what is appropriate in this regard.

Via moderna, Mark A. Foster . http://markfoster.net
... since [a] word is said to be common, it can be called 
a universal. - Wm. of Ockham, Summa Logicae, part I
Structurization Tech: http://tech.structurization.com 



 
 
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Re: Devastating stampede

[Mark A. Foster]

Rich,

At 08:03 PM 9/9/2005, you wrote:
>>My point was that the Gilberto made a statement about how Baha'is react to or 
>>regard covenant breakers. While I can respect your methodology, I think in 
>>the case given I think it muddied the picture rather than making it clearer.<<

It is clear that Baha'is, out of obedience to the Universal House of Justice, 
do not associate with Covenant-breakers. In fact, I mentioned that point in one 
of my postings. 

As a Baha'i, I do not consider such people to be Baha'is. However, both as a 
sociologist and an individual, I take a person's religious identity on face 
value. IMO, this approach both affirms the Baha'i Covenant and respects the 
freedom of conscience of those with whom I may personally disagree.

>>I guess, what troubles me is that appears that there is a willingness to 
>>ignore or shuffle off the Faith when we put on our academic hats.<< 

I don't ignore either "hat." However, I believe that subjects can be 
simultaneously approached from different perspectives.

>>Non Baha'is on the list, at least to me, seem to be asking for Baha'i 
>>responses not academic responses. While I believe that scholarship can indeed 
>>help the Faith, it's job is to help us understand the teachings, not relace 
>>them. I with Aquinas, where Revelation and Reason collide, Revelation is 
>>correct.<<

IMO, contradictory standpoints can be correct - even when they collide (or seem 
to).

>>Again, I'm sorry if I offended you Mark, I hold you in the greatest respect. 
>>I just don't agree with you here.<<

Thanks for saying that. 

Via moderna, Mark A. Foster . http://markfoster.net
... since [a] word is said to be common, it can be called 
a universal. - Wm. of Ockham, Summa Logicae, part I
Structurization Tech: http://tech.structurization.com 



 
 
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Re: Devastating stampede

[smaneck]

" Non Baha'is on the list, at least to me, seem to be asking for Baha'i responses not academic responses. While I believe that scholarship can indeed help the Faith, it's job is to help us understand the teachings, not relace them."
 
Dear Rich, 
 
There are other lists such as soc.religion.bahai which exist for that purpose. Those non-Baha'is who have been invited to participate here are those we felt could benefit from 'academic responses.' 
 
" I with Aquinas, where Revelation and Reason collide, Revelation is correct."
  
Only this Revelation insists that religion becomes superstition when it discards reason. 
 
warmest, Susan 




 
 

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Re: Devastating stampede

[smaneck]

 >I'm not sure that is true. In recent years the Universal House of Justice>has chosen to remove some people from the rolls rather than declare them>Covenant breakers. The rationale was that they had determined they weren't>really Baha'is and thus bound by the Covennat.>>warmest, Susan> >Susan,But nontheless, they are no longer considered Baha'is, right?
 
 
Dear Rich, 
 
My point is that if they *had* been considered Baha'is they would have been declared Covenant breakers. That acknowledges that Covenant breakers are indeed Baha'is in some sense of the word.
 
warmest, Susan 




 
 

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Re: Devastating stampede

[Scott Saylors]

Rich Ater <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Susan Maneck wrote:>"I guess from a Baha'i perspective we wouldn't see this as splinter>Baha'i groups, because from our point of view they stopped being Baha'is>at the moment they broke off from any point of the administrative order.">>Dear Rich,>>I'm not sure that is true. In recent years the Universal House of Justice>has chosen to remove some people from the rolls rather than declare them>Covenant breakers. The rationale was that they had determined they weren't>really Baha'is and thus bound by the Covennat.>>warmest, Susan> >Susan,But nontheless, they are no longer considered Baha'is, right?Rich
 
The answer is "yes" and "no". They are not considered Baha`i's by the administrative order. In that sense the administrative order does not define them as Baha`i's. This is to their advantage, since if they were considered and defined as "covenant breakers", this might cause hardship to friends and family who would then have to consider them covenant-breakers.
 
As to what they consider themselves, the administrative order has "naught to say". They can call themselves Baha`i all they wish, I say "okay" but they are not Baha`i's in good standing or any standing at all. See they define themselves one way - to do so they have a perfect right. I consider them another way, and I have a perfect right.
 
Regards,
 
Scott>>> > > >The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you.__You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Unsubscribe: send a blank email to
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Re: Devastating stampede

[Rich Ater]

Gilberto Simpson wrote:

  On 9/9/05, Rich Ater <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

  
  
My point was that the Gilberto made a statement about how Baha'is react
to or regard covenant breakers. While I can respect your methodology, I
think in the case given I think it muddied the picture rather than making it
clearer. 

  
  
I don't think Mark's comments did that. I don't think there was any
difficulty seperating Mark-with-a-Bahai-hat and
Mark-with-a-sociologist-hat. He's been fairly clear on the
distinction.

Peace

Gilberto
  

Dear All,
Apparently I misunderstood something here. I'll back out of this
conversation now. Apologies to all, especially Mark.
Rich





 
 

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Re: Devastating stampede

[Gilberto Simpson]

On 9/9/05, Rich Ater <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> My point was that the Gilberto made a statement about how Baha'is react
> to or regard covenant breakers. While I can respect your methodology, I
> think in the case given I think it muddied the picture rather than making it
> clearer. 

I don't think Mark's comments did that. I don't think there was any
difficulty seperating Mark-with-a-Bahai-hat and
Mark-with-a-sociologist-hat. He's been fairly clear on the
distinction.

Peace

Gilberto
-- 
"There are no poets"


 
 
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Re: Devastating stampede

[Rich Ater]

Susan Maneck wrote:


"I guess from a Baha'i perspective we wouldn't see this as splinter
Baha'i groups, because from our point of view they stopped being Baha'is
at the moment they broke off from any point of the administrative order."

Dear Rich,

I'm not sure that is true. In recent years the Universal House of Justice
has chosen to remove some people from the rolls rather than declare them
Covenant breakers. The rationale was that they had determined they weren't
really Baha'is and thus bound by the Covennat.

warmest, Susan
 


Susan,
   But nontheless, they are no longer considered Baha'is, right?
Rich






 







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Re: Devastating stampede

[Rich Ater]

Mark A. Foster wrote:

  Rich,

At 05:02 PM 9/5/2005, you wrote:
  
  

  We're not sociologists, we're Baha'is and we go by the Baha'i definitions of Covenent Breakers and their followers.<<
  

  
  
Not everyone on this list is a Baha'i. This is also not a "Baha'i" list. It is a Baha'i studies list. That would include sociological, historical, economic, psychological, etc. approaches to the study of the Baha'i Faith.

  
  

  I wouldn't. The Faith, not the university, is the arbiter here.<< 
  

  
  
Again, this is a Baha'i studies list. "The Faith" is also not a monolith. Baha'is have different perspectives. Some of those perspectives are academic.

  
  

  The stance on these groups, from the standpoint of the Faith should be taken from the writings of the Central Figures of the Faith and the administration, not from Durkheim and Strauss, or whoever the pet theorist in sociology is these days.<<
  

  
  
On this list, perspectives from Durkheim, Strauss, and even Freud are welcome. 

  
  

  The followers are not considered covenant breakers, true, they are also not considered Baha'is.<<
  

  
  
They are not considered Baha'is by the Universal House of Justice. However, if they define themselves as Baha'is, as a sociologist, I have to recognize them as such. 

Mark,
  

    My point was that the Gilberto made a statement about how Baha'is
react to or regard covenant breakers. While I can respect your
methodology, I think in the case given I think it muddied the picture
rather than making it clearer. 

    I agree that Durkheim, straus, and Frued are welcome here, when
they are to the point. I just don't think your comment was to the
point. I don't mean that to sound judgemental, and looking back I did
sound so. I apologize for that. I guess, what troubles me is that
appears that there is a willingness to ignore or shuffle off the Faith
when we put on our academic hats. Non Baha'is on the list, at least to
me, seem to be asking for Baha'i responses not academic responses.
While I believe that scholarship can indeed help the Faith, it's job is
to help us understand the teachings, not relace them. I with Aquinas,
where Revelation and Reason collide, Revelation is correct.

Again, I'm sorry if I offended you Mark, I hold you in the greatest
respect. I just don't agree with you here.
Rich

  
 
 


  







 
 

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Re: Devastating stampede

[Gilberto Simpson]

On 9/9/05, firestorm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> gilberto,
> i don;t think they are stupid or silly.
> ur point seems to be, if i am getting it, is that religion is somehow 
> different from other social sets.

No, the point is that many social sets (including religion) are very
different from mathematical sets. Class, race, ethnicity, nationality,
even gender. For each of those there are ambiguous cases. There is not
a single uncontraversial hard and fast rule that can be applied in the
same way as "integer" or "irrational number".

>   i have difficulty seeing how.
>matters of "beleif" ...sure... verry grey area.
>  if freind x tells me they have many ideas similar to those of Baha'is, i can 
> agree. if someone tells me that person abc is a nice guy and ever so Baha'i 
> like...i personally tend to cringe, becuase niceness is not something that 
> comes from being a Baha'i as some automatic gift.

I very much agree, but I'm not sure how that relates to the
discussion. I don't think those are the kind of cases we are talking
about. We are talking about people who actually believe that Bahaullah
is a Manifestation (and accept Abdul-Baha.. and Shoghi Effendi) and
say of themselves that they are Bahais.

>   a spiritual life with internal consistency tends to prodice harmonious 
> outward behaviour. that is by no means new or exclusive to the Faith.

Yes.

>the point of my legalistic interpreation about the Faith being Property of 
> Baha'u'llah, and 
> subject to logic in thoset erms is that it obviates the entire 
> pseudo-construct of shoghi 
> effendi leaving no will. he had no estate. he was trustee of an estate, and 
> had in fact, clearly > and evidently, appointed with due authority a board to 
> take over the duties of guardian
> trustee of that Estate until it could be delivered.

I don't necessarily want to get into the ins and outs because I don't
think they matter all that much in terms of what I'm saying. I
honestly don't have a strong opinion on what the most correct
interpretation of the Bahai faith is. But as an outsider I wouldn't
pick a side.

>yeah, i am quite familair with trhe idea that people thought the clause in 
> the Aqdas about 
> the line of the Centre running out wouldn;t happen at all, or not for a long 
> time.

Okay.. so the Orthodox side isn't unreasonable.

>  so let us do another hypothetical. a billionaire dies, and leaves his wealth 
> to a foundation. 
> the terms of the flundation are spelled out in the will. they call for a 
> board of directors. in the meantime, an executor of the will is named in the 
> will, and duly authorised to do his job. no one would argue that his death 
> has anything to do with the legitimacy of the will he was executing, 
> particularly if he had filed an affidavit wit hteh court that his company, 
> law form, or wnhatever, would be overseeing the execution of the will any 
> tine he was unavailable.
>  now, if someone tells me they thin this is silly, so be it. i am not saying 
> the same of them.
>   i am saying firmly that they lack the right to tell me i am wrong.

Again, I don't necessarily want to get into the ins and outs, but
Shoghi Effendi didn't directly establish the Universal House of
Justice. And if in your analogy "Board of Directors" = "Hands of the
Cause" then Mason Remey was one of them. If you have a contraversial
situation and the majority goes one way, and a minority (even a
solitary one) goes another... I think that even if the minority
opinion is incorrect, I think it is overkill to say their opinion is
so profoundly invalid that the people who disagree are actually not
Bahai.


>since i am not in harmony with the sociologic appraoch, i will hesitate to 
> accept someone's self-identification as a Baha'i.

And at that point we should agree to disagree, and drop the discussion. Okay?

Peace

Gilberto


 
 
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Re: Devastating stampede

[firestorm]

gilberto, 
i don;t think they are stupid or silly.
ur point seems to be, if i am getting it, is that religion is somehow different 
from other social sets.
  i have difficulty seeing how.
   matters of "beleif" ...sure... verry grey area.
 if freind x tells me they have many ideas similar to those of Baha'is, i can 
agree. if someone tells me that person abc is a nice guy and ever so Baha'i 
like...i personally tend to cringe, becuase niceness is not something that 
comes from being a Baha'i as some automatic gift.
  a spiritual life with internal consistency tends to prodice harmonious 
outward behaviour. that is by no means new or exclusive to the Faith.
   the point of my legalistic interpreation about the Faith being Property of 
Baha'u'llah, and subject to logic in thoset erms is that it obviates the entire 
pseudo-construct of shoghi effendi leaving no will. he had no estate. he was 
trustee of an estate, and had in fact, clearly and evidently, appointed with 
due authority a board to take over the duties of guardian/trustee of that 
Estate until it could be delivered.
   yeah, i am quite familair with trhe idea that people thought the clause in 
the Aqdas about the line of the Centre running out wouldn;t happen at all, or 
not for a long tiem. 
 so let us do another hypothetical. a billionaire dies, and leaves his wealth 
to a foundation. the terms of the flundation are spelled out in the will. they 
call for a board of directors. in the meantime, an executor of the will is 
named in the will, and duly authorised to do his job. no one would argue that 
his death has anything to do with the legitimacy of the will he was executing, 
particularly if he had filed an affidavit wit hteh court that his company, law 
form, or wnhatever, would be overseeing the execution of the will any tine he 
was unavailable.
 now, if someone tells me they thin this is silly, so be it. i am not saying 
the same of them.
  i am saying firmly that they lack the right to tell me i am wrong.
they may say they see the situation differenty. but not that i am wrong.
   i am saying firmly, here and on a reallly long thread elsewhre, that their 
understanding and issueas are none of my business.
   and that this sword cuts both ways. they lack any claim of any moral right 
to change my understanding. we may exchange views, as u and i are doing. we may 
share. if we do so lovingly, we may both gain from the exchange. 
   anyone may say they see the Faith as not being the religion for them becuase 
It does not conform to their private understadning of what Go'ds religion is. 
no problem. 
   the issue is that people do not have the right in my firmest beleif, to say 
that the Faith must change to suit their understadning.
   since i am not in harmony with the sociologic appraoch, i will hesitate to 
accept someone's self-identification as a Baha'i. 
  as a creature still to some degree trapped by names, when said person 
identifies with process concistent with that of members of the Baha'i Faith, 
then Baha'i will tend to be the word i use to dedscribe their behaviour.
   


 
 
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Re: Devastating stampede

[Gilberto Simpson]

On 9/8/05, firestorm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> gilberto, to the extent that all of us must figure ways to get along with 
> others, we are all in fact sociologists.

ok.

>  the us senate exists becuae of a consttution, voted upon ratified etc. 
> whereby a us governemnt comes into existence.

ok.

>  the Baha'i Faith comes into existence as the execution of the Estate of 
> Baha'u'llah..Who left It, in toto, to Abd'ul Baha, Who left It, in toto to a 
> corporation (therefore a quasi-person) not in posession of its maturity,
>  which is often called the WOB. due to this issue of timing (and this is a 
> personal, and highly phariseeistic view, but it's mine and i stick with it) 

ok. those are your words. to me it doesn't seem natural to view
religion as something like a piece of property. and in any case, it
isn't the only way to look at the issue. On top of that, it is
actually sort of besides the point. I have read more about the
Remeyites than the groups which appeared before. And your analogy
points to an ambiguity in the whole situation since Shoghi Effendi
apparently died without a will, no?

>  membership in a set is not a property of the member, but of the set. 0.6 
> doesn;t > get into the set of integers, no matter how hard it proclaims it is 
> ever so much 
> like 6.0. the sqaure root of 25 can stand on its head while reading from 
> finnegan's > wake, and never be qualified for membership in the set of 
> irrational numbers.

I tend not to like this sort of math analogy because the real world is
very different from the world of mathematics. The set of irrational
numbers or the set of integers have exceedingly clear definitions.
Members of a religion simply do not.

>   let us hypothesize: so some one says, ahh, if i put a black stone near my 
> home, and circumabulate it on horseback, i will be like Muhammed (pbuH), and 
> > therefore have surrendered to the Will of Allah. is this person Moslem? 

Al-Hallaj actually did something similar. I wouldn't exclude him from
being Mulsim.

does 
> having a deovted woman wash ur feet with her hair make one Christian? imho 
> the > objective viewer will say...no. a Verse has been removed from context 
> and been > made into the basis of a persona , but not an identity.
>  but again, i have personal resistance to the sociologic perspective.

Your analogies are really bad because they don't even come close to
the real-life cases being considered. No one is saying John Smith is a
Bahai because they come from Baja, California or because they know a
guy named Bob (sounds like "Bab") and read his mail. The people people
talking about believe in the Bab, believe in Bahaullah, believe in
their writings, accept that Abdul-Baha was the successor, and accept
that Shoghi Effendi was his successor. Even during Shoghi Effendi's
lifetime, most Bahais assumed that the Guardianship was going to
continue. So expecting a second Guardian couldn't have been *that*
ridiculous.

If you don't want to believe it, fine. No one is making you. From my
perspective it doesn't matter all that much.  It just seems weird to
act as if the people who disagree with you are somehow stupid or
silly.

Peace

Gilberto


 
 
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Re: Devastating stampede

[Mark A. Foster]

Firestorm,

At 02:12 AM 9/8/2005, you wrote:
>>my above mentioned freind with the issues cannnot figure out why "normed" 
>>Baha'is do not think of him as being one, and argues for a definition that 
>>says all "liberal" people should vote as to what the Baha'i Faith is and then 
>>have It become that.<<

Of course, it is unlikely that members of the Baha'i International Community 
will, by and large, consider this person to be a Baha'i. For myself, as I said 
before, I would simply state that the person is not a member of the Baha'i 
International Community (as defined by the House of Justice), that, as a 
sociologist, I accept her or his self-definition on face value, and that, as an 
individual believer, I leave the question in the hands of God.

>>recenty an individal dis-enrolled himself over issues that can be summed in 1 
>>word: mckinney/marshall/cole, and made quite an effort to involve otehrs in 
>>his decision. my point of view was specifically that the matter was between 
>>him and Baha'u'llah..period.. and that the "issue" was the insistence that it 
>>involved anyone else.<<

I know several people who have left the Baha'i International Community over 
that issue. 

Via moderna, Mark A. Foster . http://markfoster.net
... since [a] word is said to be common, it can be called 
a universal. - Wm. of Ockham, Summa Logicae, part I
Structurization Tech: http://tech.structurization.com 



 
 
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Re: Devastating stampede

[firestorm]

gilberto, to the extent that all of us must figure ways to get along with 
others, we are all in fact sociologists.
  the us senate exists becuae of a consttution, voted upon ratified etc. 
whereby a us governemnt comes into existence.
  the Baha'i Faith comes into existence as the execution of the Estate of 
Baha'u'llah..Who left It, in toto, to Abd'ul Baha, Who left It, in toto to a 
corporation (therefore a quasi-person) not in posession of its maturity,
 which is often called the WOB. due to this issue of timing (and this is a 
personal, and highly phariseeistic view, but it's mine and i stick with it) the 
Estate was entrusted to a Trustee, amin and vali, the Guardian of the Cause of 
God until such time as the WOB was matured. this legally recognised Guardian 
appointed stewards to manage the propertoes and affairs of the estate, and said 
trustees announced in 1963 that the Property could be handed to the Heir, the 
WOB.
 and this is the parallel to the senate.
  membership in a set is not a property of the member, but of the set. 0.6 
doesn;t get into the set of integers, no matter how hard it proclaims it is 
ever so much like 6.0. the sqaure root of 25 can stand on its head while 
reading from finnegan's wake, and never be qualified for membership in the set 
of irrational numbers.
   membership in the Baha'i Faith, imho has something specifically to do with 
agreement about some version of the above statemnt about the WOB.
   let us hypothesize: so some one says, ahh, if i put a black stone near my 
home, and circumabulate it on horseback, i will be like Muhammed (pbuH), and 
therefore have surrendered to the Will of Allah. is this person Moslem? does 
having a deovted woman wash ur feet with her hair make one Christian? imho the 
objective viewer will say...no. a Verse has been removed from context and been 
made into the basis of a persona , but not an identity.
 but again, i have personal resistance to the sociologic perspective. 
   
   

 
 
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Re: Devastating stampede

[firestorm]

mark foster,
 inpractice, that is what i see happen on the web.
 my above mentioned freind with the issues cannnot figure out why "normed" 
Baha'is do not think of him as being one, and argues for a definition that says 
all "liberal" people should vote as to what the Baha'i Faith is and then have 
It become that.
  others who discuss things with him ask him to find ay evidence for his 
views within Texct & Guidance. i talk with him to determine what veils cuase 
hmn to see as he does, so that perchance, i might rip him off for a few casue 
hey, maybe i can make a silk purse of them.
   recenty an individal dis-enrolled himself over issues that can be summed in 
1 word: mckinney/marshall/cole, and made quite an effort to involve otehrs in 
his decision. my point of view was specifically that the matter was between him 
and Baha'u'llah..period.. and that the "issue" was the insistence that it 
involved anyone else. 

 
 
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Re: Devastating stampede

[Iskandar Hai]

It's been one week since the tragic event in Baghdad on Wednesday August 
31st took the lives of more than 1000 pilgrims. 

I'd like for us to continue to offer prayers for the souls of the 
departed, for the consolation of their relatives and family members, and 
for the overall protection of human beings. 

Maybe we can all post a prayer from whatever Faith/religion. 

Here is a prayer by Baha'u'llah: 

Praise be to Thee, O Lord my God!

 

Praise be to Thee, O Lord my God!  Thou seest and knowest that I have 
called upon Thy servants to turn nowhere except in the direction of Thy 
bestowals, and have bidden them observe naught save the things Thou 
didst prescribe in Thy Perspicuous Book, the Book which hath been sent 
down according to Thine inscrutable decree and irrevocable purpose.  

I can utter no word, O my God, unless I be permitted by Thee, and can 
move in no direction until I obtain Thy sanction.  It is Thou, O my God, 
Who hast called me into being through the power of Thy might, and hast 
endued me with Thy grace to manifest Thy Cause.  Wherefore I have been 
subjected to such adversities that my tongue hath been hindered from 
extolling Thee and from magnifying Thy glory.  

All praise be to Thee, O my God, for the things Thou didst ordain for me 
through Thy decree and by the power of Thy sovereignty.  I beseech Thee 
that thou wilt fortify both myself and them that love me in our love for 
Thee, and wilt keep us firm in Thy Cause.  I swear by Thy might!  O my 
God!  Thy servant's shame is to be shut out as by a veil from Thee, and 
his glory is to know Thee.  Armed with the power of Thy name nothing can 
ever hurt me, and with Thy love in my heart all the world's afflictions 
can in no wise alarm me.  

Send down, therefore, O my Lord, upon me and upon my loved ones that 
which will protect us from the mischief of those that have repudiated 
Thy truth and disbelieved in Thy signs.  

Thou art, verily, the All-Glorious, the Most Bountiful.  

http://www.bahaiprayers.org/protection1.htm 




 
 
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Re: Devastating stampede

[Gilberto Simpson]

On 9/7/05, firestorm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> it would be nice to take the sociologic perspective of self-identification, 
> except for > the case given above about a senator not being a sociologist, i 
> am led to ask, 
> then how does one define Baha'i? a us sentaotr meets certain 
> qualifications..set > not by the senator, but by the u.s. senate. so who 
> determines the qualifications > of a Baha'i?

Sure. You are "right" but ultimately your analogy isn't an argument.
Why should "Bahai" be more like "senator" rather than "sociologist"?


Peace

Gilberto


 
 
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RE: Devastating stampede

[Mark A. Foster]

Hi, Susan,

At 03:34 AM 9/7/2005, you wrote:
>>This does not apply to priests or other religious leaders. The separation 
>>clause protects them as it does not protect therapists, lawyers, teachers, 
>>etc.<<

According to the information I posted, it seems as though one or two states do 
not recognize that privilege. However, I don't know if it has ever gone to the 
courts. If that ever happens, it would interesting to see how it would be 
decided.

Via moderna, Mark A. Foster . http://markfoster.net
... since [a] word is said to be common, it can be called 
a universal. - Wm. of Ockham, Summa Logicae, part I
Structurization Tech: http://tech.structurization.com 



 
 
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Re: Devastating stampede

[Mark A. Foster]

Hi, Firestorm,

At 02:27 AM 9/7/2005, you wrote:
>> so, of what use is a sociologic rule that ends up miming the identity 
>> principle of multiplying by one?<<

Utilitarianism depend on the perspective of the observer. My *assumption* would 
be that typical members of a majority organization within a religious category 
could be expected to find a broad view of religious identity to be threatening, 
while members of minority organizations in that same category would generally 
welcome it.

Via moderna, Mark A. Foster . http://markfoster.net
... since [a] word is said to be common, it can be called 
a universal. - Wm. of Ockham, Summa Logicae, part I
Structurization Tech: http://tech.structurization.com 



 
 
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RE: Devastating stampede

[Susan Maneck]

"I guess from a Baha'i perspective we wouldn't see this as splinter
Baha'i groups, because from our point of view they stopped being Baha'is
at the moment they broke off from any point of the administrative order."

Dear Rich,

I'm not sure that is true. In recent years the Universal House of Justice
has chosen to remove some people from the rolls rather than declare them
Covenant breakers. The rationale was that they had determined they weren't
really Baha'is and thus bound by the Covennat.

warmest, Susan



 
 
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RE: Devastating stampede

[Susan Maneck]

" However, if someone goes to a priest, a therapist, or an attorney and
admits of child molestation, it is generally not considered as protected by
confidentiality agreements."

Dear Mark,

This does not apply to priests or other religious leaders. The separation
clause protects them as it does not protect therapists, lawyers, teachers,
etc.

warmest, Susan











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RE: Devastating stampede

[Susan Maneck]

"One really needs only be a monotheist to embrace Sufi, and which Prophet
one follows is relatively immaterial, since the Sufi would essentially
accept them all."

Dear Scott,

That is only true for what sometimes passes for Sufism in the West. In the
Islamic world to say you are a Sufi without being a Muslim would be like
saying you are a Benedictine without being a Catholic.

warmest, Susan



 
 
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Re: Devastating stampede

[firestorm]

it would be nice to take the sociologic perspective of self-identification, 
except for the case given above about a senator.
 not being a sociologist, i am led to ask, then how does one define Baha'i? a 
us sentaotr meets certain qualifications..set not by the senator, but by the 
u.s. senate. so who determines the qualifications of a Baha'i?
   this is an issue that has been debated recently over at bnut.
 coming from the opinion that a Baha'i is one who accepts the Calim of 
Baha'u'llah, to my poor and fundie head, the Ahd, the W&T etc become 
essentially part of Baha'u'llah's Claim. and we're back to mas'um or whatever 
the word is. 
behaviourly concrete: i have a freind on another list who concretely belives 
Baha'u'llah is >not< the Return of Christ, but a lesser prophet, nabi, as are 
the Other Ras'ul...All subsidiary to Christ, Who (he says) permits monogamous 
homosexual relationships, involvement in local and national politics, and 
disregard for the Guidance from the Guardian as being culturally contaminated. 
he self identifies as Baha'i..."liberal" Baha'i.  i will grant him this 
determination on the grounds that "all are His servants and all abide by His 
bidding"--but this deifnition leaves me with 6 billion or so Baha'is, most of 
whom do not self-identify in any way with Baha'u'llah. 
   so, of what use is a sociologic rule that ends up miming the identity 
principle of multiplying by one?
   i will admit to having a native dislike of soc as contrasted to psych or 
anthro. but i don;t think that invalidates my question.


 
 
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RE: Devastating stampede

[Susan Maneck]

"You forgot to add : "in my limited understanding of the Baha'i Holy
Writings"."

Max,

Looks like you were the one who forgot to add that. But tell me, what
terrible thing did these women and children do to deserve this?

Susan



 
 
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Re: Devastating stampede

[Mark A. Foster]

Rich,

At 05:05 PM 9/5/2005, you wrote:
>>It would be irrelevant. The confessional is inviolate. It has been so since 
>>the beginning of the church. Every country or society that has tried to 
>>change this has failed. My point was that thec hurch has never recognized 
>>these types of laws.<<

That is true, but not all U.S. states agree. For what it's worth, I don't think 
that they should agree - especially when it comes to matters like child 
molestation.

Via moderna, Mark A. Foster . http://markfoster.net
... since [a] word is said to be common, it can be called 
a universal. - Wm. of Ockham, Summa Logicae, part I
Structurization Tech: http://tech.structurization.com 



 
 
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Re: Devastating stampede

[Mark A. Foster]

Rich,

At 05:02 PM 9/5/2005, you wrote:
>>We're not sociologists, we're Baha'is and we go by the Baha'i definitions of 
>>Covenent Breakers and their followers.<<

Not everyone on this list is a Baha'i. This is also not a "Baha'i" list. It is 
a Baha'i studies list. That would include sociological, historical, economic, 
psychological, etc. approaches to the study of the Baha'i Faith.

>>I wouldn't. The Faith, not the university, is the arbiter here.<< 

Again, this is a Baha'i studies list. "The Faith" is also not a monolith. 
Baha'is have different perspectives. Some of those perspectives are academic.

>>The stance on these groups, from the standpoint of the Faith should be taken 
>>from the writings of the Central Figures of the Faith and the administration, 
>>not from Durkheim and Strauss, or whoever the pet theorist in sociology is 
>>these days.<<

On this list, perspectives from Durkheim, Strauss, and even Freud are welcome. 

>>The followers are not considered covenant breakers, true, they are also not 
>>considered Baha'is.<<

They are not considered Baha'is by the Universal House of Justice. However, if 
they define themselves as Baha'is, as a sociologist, I have to recognize them 
as such. 

Via moderna, Mark A. Foster . http://markfoster.net
... since [a] word is said to be common, it can be called 
a universal. - Wm. of Ockham, Summa Logicae, part I
Structurization Tech: http://tech.structurization.com 



 
 
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Re: Devastating stampede

[Rich Ater]

Mark A. Foster wrote:


Rich,

At 09:00 PM 9/3/2005, you wrote:
 


Actually, that would be true. The sanctity of the confessional is inviolate. A priest 
cannot reveal to anyone what he hears in confession, no matter how heinous. Priests 
have gone to jail, and in some instances to their deaths for this. The US accepts 
this and a priest is not compelled to reveal what he hears in confession.<<
 



Would not the fact that priests have gone to jail indicate that they were 
violating confessional reporting requirements? There is some variation in these 
reporting requirements. Here is a listing by U.S. state:

 


Mark,
   It would be irrelevant. The confessional is inviolate. It has been 
so since the beginning of the church. Every country or society that has 
tried to change this has failed. My point was that thec hurch has never 
recognized these types of laws.

Rich




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Re: Devastating stampede

[Rich Ater]

As a sociologist (and also as an individual), I would consider them to be Baha'is based on 
self-definition, and I also would regard their organizations, where they exist, to be branches 
of the Baha'i Faith. (The word 'sect" has a precise usage in the sociology of religion, 
and none of the organizations which call themselves "Baha'i," our own included, 
would qualify for that term.)
 


Mark,
   We're not sociologists, we're Baha'is and we go by the Baha'i 
definitions of Covenent Breakers and their followers.



I would also note the views of the leaderships of the different Baha'i groups 
regarding those Baha'is who are not members of their own groups.

   I wouldn't. The Faith, not the university, is the arbiter here. The 
stance on these groups, from the standpoint of the Faith should be taken 
from the writings of the Central Figures of the Faith and the 
administration, not from Durkheim and Strauss, or whoever the pet 
theorist in sociology is these days.



That would include the fact that the Universal House of Justice restricts the 
term to those who are formally members of the organization under its 
administration.
 

   The followers are not considered covenant breakers, true, they are 
also not considered Baha'is.


Rich




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Re: Devastating stampede

[Scott Saylors]

Gilberto Simpson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

On 9/3/05, Scott Saylors <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:> One thing most forget is this: Many times an institution must rule on what> they have found as fact, but because of the nature of PRIVACY and DISCRETION> on the substance of their consultation they simply are not free to fully> explain themselves. An assembly at whatever level of function has> responsibilities to maintain a "privileged information" status - to break> confidentiality on ANY single thing can jeopardize the institution's right> to keep ANYTHING confidential from a legaland societal standpoint.> > As it is legally in the west, an assembly can claim privilege just as an> attorney or doctor or clergyman can, but to maintain that claim everything> must be confidential.I think the two kinds of cases are very different. In order for anattorney, doctor, or clergyman (or clergywoman) to do their jobs,their client!
 s or
 parishoners need to be honest with them and at timesgive them candid, personal information. But if these people could becompelled to easily turn over such information, then the people theyare trying to serve would have less reason to trust them, and thesepeople would be less able to do their job.But if a larger institution is making decisions it can't exactly claimthe same privilege for themselves.For example if a child molestor goes to a priest and confesses hissins, the confession would be protected. But if priests molestchildren and the church just chooses to move them around to differentparishes and pays off families to keep them quiet, etc, the churchcan't ethically claim some kind of protection.PeaceGilberto
Dear Gilberto,
The faith has no clergy, all the pastoral authority of the faith is within the administrative bodies. Just as a single client can have a horde of lawyers, an administrative body can claim the same right to privilege and more importantly, the individual can demand that the administrative body live up to that privilege.
As to child abuse, the clergyman may have the duty to remain mum on the basis of "privileged information", he certainly has the right to turn in anonymously a call to the authorities and NOT give any detail. Thereby he can keep conscience and not allow a situation to go unadressed.
As to the administrative arm of any religion shielding sex offenders who happen to be clergy or administrative authorities, I do not find this acceptable either. But the right of the "confessional" is entrenched in American and British jurispudence, and justifiably so.
 
Regards,
 
Scott



 
 

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Re: Devastating stampede

[Mark A. Foster]

Rich,

At 09:00 PM 9/3/2005, you wrote:
>>Actually, that would be true. The sanctity of the confessional is inviolate. 
>>A priest cannot reveal to anyone what he hears in confession, no matter how 
>>heinous. Priests have gone to jail, and in some instances to their deaths for 
>>this. The US accepts this and a priest is not compelled to reveal what he 
>>hears in confession.<<

Would not the fact that priests have gone to jail indicate that they were 
violating confessional reporting requirements? There is some variation in these 
reporting requirements. Here is a listing by U.S. state:

http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0318/csmimg/0318p4b.jpg 

Via moderna, Mark A. Foster . http://markfoster.net
... since [a] word is said to be common, it can be called 
a universal. - Wm. of Ockham, Summa Logicae, part I
Structurization Tech: http://tech.structurization.com 



 
 
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Re: Devastating stampede

[Mark A. Foster]

Rich,

At 08:47 PM 9/3/2005, you wrote:
>>For Baha'is, Covenant Breakers are not sects, they stop being Baha'is.<<

As a sociologist (and also as an individual), I would consider them to be 
Baha'is based on self-definition, and I also would regard their organizations, 
where they exist, to be branches of the Baha'i Faith. (The word 'sect" has a 
precise usage in the sociology of religion, and none of the organizations which 
call themselves "Baha'i," our own included, would qualify for that term.)

I would also note the views of the leaderships of the different Baha'i groups 
regarding those Baha'is who are not members of their own groups. That would 
include the fact that the Universal House of Justice restricts the term to 
those who are formally members of the organization under its administration.

Via moderna, Mark A. Foster . http://markfoster.net
... since [a] word is said to be common, it can be called 
a universal. - Wm. of Ockham, Summa Logicae, part I
Structurization Tech: http://tech.structurization.com 



 
 
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Re: Devastating stampede

[Rich Ater]

For example if a child molestor goes to a priest and confesses his sins, the confession would be protected.<< 
 



To my knowledge, in most cases that would *not* be true (at least not in the 
U.S.).

 


Mark,
   Actually, that would be true. The sanctity of the confessional is 
inviolate. A priest cannot reveal to anyone what he hears in confession, 
no matter how heinous. Priests have gone to jail, and in some instances 
to their deaths for this. The US accepts this and a priest is not 
compelled to reveal what he hears in confession.

Rich




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Re: Devastating stampede

[Rich Ater]

Gilberto Simpson wrote:


I've gotten into discussions before with Bahais where they tried to
say that the Bahai faith has never split and that its unity is
promised by the central figures and is proof of its divine origin and
at the same time, these Bahais would make a big deal about divisions
within Islam as if it were evidence for the end of the Islamic
dispensation. (BTW the tomb of Muhammad (saaws) is still there in
Medina).
 


Gilberto,

   I guess from a Baha'i perspective we wouldn't see this as splinter 
Baha'i groups, because from our point of view they stopped being Baha'is 
at the moment they broke off from any point of the administrative order. 
I don't mind discussing this, as a matter of fact, it could be 
interesting and productive. I just want to make sure we each understand 
the other's position. For Baha'is, Covenant Breakers are not sects, they 
stop being Baha'is. This being said we cannot persecute them, nor 
deprive them of civil rights. We are instructed to shun them in our 
personal lives, but Abdul- Baha was very specific that we can in no way 
interfere with there ability to earn a living or live their lives.


   As to the position of some Baha'is that divisions in Islam are 
evidence of the end of the Islamic dispensation. I think they show a 
lack of understanding of Islam and its history. Afterall, the most 
important division, the Shi'a & Sunni occurred right after the Prophet's 
(PBUH) passing and Islam was growing in leaps and bounds at the time. I 
personally think pointing out any religions "decline" shows a lack of tact.


Finally, Muhammad's (PBUH) tomb is very much intact, but the Wahabi's 
did destroy the cemetary of the companions.



From my perspective there are still divisions in the Bahai faith in

the sense that small groups of people have split off.


   Yes, but as I said we don't consider them Baha'is anymore.


While the
divisions in Islam are a bit exagerated. (At least in my experience
Sunnis and Shias or Wahabis and Sufis can still pray together for
instance. And they still agree on things like the 5 pillars or basic
elements of the creed)
 

   WE had a bit of a storm in Bellevue WA when the area Mosque voted to 
not allow Shi'a to pray there. There is documentation of Deobandi 
Muslims persecuting those of Chiste leanings, and let's not forget the 
Ahmadiyya. In Sir Richard Francis Burton's Memoir of his journey to 
Mecca, he discusses Wahabi tribesmen attacking Persian pilgrims because 
they were Shi'a. The Wahabi are known for being anti Sufi and I have 
read that Shi'a and Sufis are discriminated against in Saudi Arabia. I 
bring this up not to disparage Islam. I don't think it represents Islam. 
To borrow from the New Testament, Jesus warns his dicsiples that many 
will claim to be his followers and he will say "I never knew you."


I hope this kicks off some grist for the mill and that you are doing well.
Rich





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RE: Devastating stampede

[Max Jasper]

We have but to turn our gaze to humanity's blood-stained history to
realize
that nothing short of intense mental as well as physical agony has been
able
to precipitate those epoch-making changes that constitute the greatest
landmarks in the history of human civilization.

(Shoghi Effendi, The World Order of Baha'u'llah, p. 45)






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Re: Devastating stampede

[Mark A. Foster]

Gilberto,

At 06:55 PM 9/3/2005, you wrote:
>>really? Do you know what the limits are then?<<

In the U.S., the laws vary from state to state. However, if someone goes to a 
priest, a therapist, or an attorney and admits of child molestation, it is 
generally not considered as protected by confidentiality agreements. It is the 
legal duty of these persons to report these actions to the appropriate 
authorities.


Via moderna, Mark A. Foster . http://markfoster.net
"Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger." 
-- Abbie Hoffman 












 
 
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Re: Devastating stampede

[Mark A. Foster]

Gilberto,

At 07:15 PM 9/3/2005, you quoted:
"... recently in the US there have been some child protection laws which 
require professionals (teachers, social workers, etc) to report suspected child 
abuse. Some laws specifically mention the confessional in this regard. But the 
formulation of those laws varies from state to state and it is still unclear 
whether they are constitutional or not."<< 

Yes. That is what I had in mind.

Via moderna, Mark A. Foster . http://markfoster.net
... since [a] word is said to be common, it can be called 
a universal. - Wm. of Ockham, Summa Logicae, part I
Structurization Tech: http://tech.structurization.com 



 
 
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Re: Devastating stampede

[Gilberto Simpson]

The Catholic Encyclopedia has an entry on the seal of the confessional
and makes it pretty sweeping

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13649b.htm

Including even capital crimes.  So from the Catholic side, the
confessions are definitely protected and most Western and a  few
non-Western  respect that status in different ways. recently in the US
t here have been some child protection laws which require
professionals (teachers, social workers, etc) to report suspected
child abuse. Some laws specifically mention the confessional in this
regard. But the formulation of those laws varies from state to state
and it is still unclear whether they are constitutional or not.


 
 
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Re: Devastating stampede

[Gilberto Simpson]

really? Do you know what the limits are then?

-Gilberto

On 9/3/05, Mark A. Foster <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Gilberto,
> 
> At 06:17 PM 9/3/2005, you wrote:
> >>For example if a child molestor goes to a priest and confesses his sins, 
> >>the confession would be protected.<<
> 
> To my knowledge, in most cases that would *not* be true (at least not in the 
> U.S.).
> 
> Via moderna, Mark A. Foster . http://markfoster.net
> ... since [a] word is said to be common, it can be called
> a universal. - Wm. of Ockham, Summa Logicae, part I
> Structurization Tech: http://tech.structurization.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto 
> ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is 
> intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity 
> named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy 
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> not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, 
> distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have 
> received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply 
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> 
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Re: Devastating stampede

[Mark A. Foster]

Gilberto,

At 06:17 PM 9/3/2005, you wrote:
>>For example if a child molestor goes to a priest and confesses his sins, the 
>>confession would be protected.<< 

To my knowledge, in most cases that would *not* be true (at least not in the 
U.S.).

Via moderna, Mark A. Foster . http://markfoster.net
... since [a] word is said to be common, it can be called 
a universal. - Wm. of Ockham, Summa Logicae, part I
Structurization Tech: http://tech.structurization.com 



 
 
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Re: Devastating stampede

[Gilberto Simpson]

On 9/3/05, Scott Saylors <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> One thing most forget is this: Many times an institution must rule on what
> they have found as fact, but because of the nature of PRIVACY and DISCRETION
> on the substance of their consultation they simply are not free to fully
> explain themselves. An assembly at whatever level of function has
> responsibilities to maintain a "privileged information" status - to break
> confidentiality on ANY single thing can jeopardize the institution's right
> to keep ANYTHING confidential from a legaland societal standpoint.
> 
> As it is legally in the west, an assembly can claim privilege just as an
> attorney or doctor or clergyman can, but to maintain that claim everything
> must be confidential.

I think the two kinds of cases are very different. In order for an
attorney, doctor, or clergyman (or clergywoman) to do their jobs,
their clients or parishoners need to be honest with them and at times
give them candid, personal information. But if these people could be
compelled to easily turn over such information, then the people they
are trying to serve would have less reason to trust them, and these
people would be less able to do their job.

But if a larger institution is making decisions it can't exactly claim
the same privilege for themselves.

For example if a child molestor goes to a priest and confesses his
sins, the confession would be protected. But if priests molest
children and the church just chooses to move them around to different
parishes and pays off families to keep them quiet, etc, the church
can't ethically claim some kind of protection.

Peace

Gilberto


 
 
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Re: Devastating stampede

[Gilberto Simpson]

On 9/3/05, Scott Saylors <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> 

> 
> Gilberto,
> 
> I think that could be said, but I cannot be certain he did not withdraw
> rather than face administrative sanctions. I think he later regretted
> withdrawing, but that is surmise on my part, I certainly cannot judge his
> actions. Actually, I think that the list policy is to NOT discuss Professor
> Cole's frictions with the faith, as he is not participant on this list. I
> don't really want to put words in his mouth.

Here is a statement he put out a couple of years ago. I don't know of
anything more recent statement about his relation to the faith.

http://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/1999/persdec.htm

Date sent: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 18:08:51 GMT 
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion 


From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Subject: Personal Statement on Baha'u'llah, 3 years on 
Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 07:34:44 GMT 
Newsgroups: talk.religion.bahai 
NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.75.177.105 
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion 
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X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.05 [en] (Win95; I) 




I became a Baha'i in 1972 at the age of 19 in part because of a mystical 
experience I had while reading the Tablet of the True Seeker in the Book of 
Certitude, especially this passage: 


"Only when the lamp of search, of earnest striving, of longing desire, of 
passionate devotion, of fervid love, of rapture, and ecstasy, is kindled 
within the seeker's heart, and the breeze of His loving-kindness is wafted 
upon his soul, will the darkness of error be dispelled, the mists of doubts 
and misgivings be dissipated, and the lights of knowledge and certitude 
envelop his being. At that hour will the mystic Herald, bearing the joyful 
tidings of the Spirit, shine forth from the City of God resplendent as the 
morn, and, through the trumpet-blast of knowledge, will awaken the heart, the 
soul, and the spirit from the slumber of negligence. Then will the manifold 
favours and outpouring grace of the holy and everlasting Spirit confer such 
new life upon the seeker that he will find himself endowed with a new eye, a 
new ear, a new heart, and a new mind. He will contemplate the manifest signs 
of the universe, and will penetrate the hidden mysteries of the soul. Gazing 
with the eye of God, he will perceive within every atom a door that leadeth 
him to the stations of absolute certitude. He will discover in all things the 
mysteries of divine Revelation and the evidences of an everlasting 
manifestation." Kitab-i-Iqan pp. 195-196. 


I had gone home to Virginia after my freshman year at Northwestern, and I was 
taught the faith by many friends in the Northern Virginia area, including 
Charles "Herk" Lerche, the Huddlestons, Abbas Seymour and the Bashirs. It 
was the time of the Vietnam war, which I opposed, so peace and world unity 
looked good to me. It was a time of enormous interest in Oriental religions, 
and I already knew something about Hinduism and about Sufism; the Baha'i 
faith seemed to exemplify the best in them. And it was a time of great 
licentiousness in the youth culture, in which I perceived something selfish 
and immature, and which a specific spiritual discipline helped address. 
Under the influence of Shoghi Effendi's Advent of Divine Justice, I 
immediately began studying Arabic at Northwestern and switched to majoring in 
religion, completing a B.A. This was the passage that really shaped the rest 
of my life: 


"Those who participate in such a campaign, whether in an organizing capacity, 
or as workers to whose care the execution of the task itself has been 
committed, must, as an essential preliminary to the discharge of their 
duties, thoroughly familiarize themselves with the various aspects of the 
history and teachings of their Faith. In their efforts to achieve this 
purpose they must study for themselves, conscientiously and painstakingly, 
the literature of their Faith, delve into its teachings, assimilate its laws 
and principles, ponder its admonitions, tenets and purposes, commit to memory 
certain of its exhortations and prayers, master the essentials of its 
administration, and keep abreast of its current affairs and latest 
developments. They must strive to obtain, from sources that are authoritative 
and unbiased, a sound knowledge of the history and tenets of Islám--the 
source and background of their Faith--and approach reverently and with a mind 
purged from preconceived ideas the study of the Qur'án which, apart from the 
sacred scriptures of the Bábí and Bahá'í Revelations, constitutes the only 
Book which can be regarded as an absolutely authenticated Repository of the 
Word of God. They must devote special attention to the investigation of those 
institutions and circumstances that are directly connected with the origin 
and birth of their Faith, with

Re: Devastating stampede

[Don Calkins]

At 4:02 AM -0400 9/3/05, Gilberto Simpson wrote:

 >

 I consider Juan Cole to be a Baha`i, even though he has splintered himself
 off of the body of the faith.


Wow. I'm actually impressed. In the past I've found Bahais who would
not say he was one of their number.

He professes the Prophethood of Baha`u'llah

 and the Writings as the Truth.


Yes.


 Personally, I believe that putting my own ego
 ahead of unity is wrong, but that is for me to say only about myself.


Actually I read that he "voluntarily" removed himself from the Bahais
in order to not be divisive.



That's not what he said initially.  His argument when he withdrew 
from the Faith was -

Baha'u'llah stated that the House of Justice was infallible;
The House of Justice had made rulings which he (Juan) considered erroneous;
Therefore Baha'u'llah was in error;
Therefore He could not be a Manifestation of God.

About a year later, he stated he now believed that Baha'u'llah was a 
Manifestation of God, but was not requested membership in the Faith. 
He *may* have said at that time that he was not requesting 
re-instatement in order to avoid divisiveness, I don't remember.  I 
wasn't following talisman very close by then, and soon after 
unsubscribed.


I think you can consider Juan an unenrolled Baha'i by choice.  Such 
people have been floating around the U.S. since the late 60's.  The 
one thing they seem to have in common is an objection to the 
administration; generally, from what I've seen, an objection to any 
form of administration.  The last one I actually met before being on 
line was living on the streets of Des Moines IA in the late 80's.


Don C

--
-.-.-.-.-
He who believes himself spiritual proves he is not.





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Re: Devastating stampede

[Scott Saylors]

Gilberto Simpson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: 

On 9/2/05, Scott Saylors <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:> > I consider Juan Cole to be a Baha`i, even though he has splintered himself> off of the body of the faith. Wow. I'm actually impressed. In the past I've found Bahais who wouldnot say he was one of their number.He professes the Prophethood of Baha`u'llah> and the Writings as the Truth. Yes.> Personally, I believe that putting my own ego> ahead of unity is wrong, but that is for me to say only about myself.Actually I read that he "voluntarily" removed himself from the Bahaisin order to not be divisive.PeaceGilberto
Gilberto,
I think that could be said, but I cannot be certain he did not withdraw rather than face administrative sanctions. I think he later regretted withdrawing, but that is surmise on my part, I certainly cannot judge his actions. Actually, I think that the list policy is to NOT discuss Professor Cole's frictions with the faith, as he is not participant on this list. I don't really want to put words in his mouth.
To most Baha`i's I think his actions raise a cautionary flag, and they react with a certain degree of revulsion. It is an important factor of the faith in most Baha`i's that they not countenance lack of obedience to the institutions. I certainly think it is important. I might regret some policies, but I am not going to say they are improper when the institution is, in fact, the sole arbiter of what propriety is.
One thing most forget is this: Many times an institution must rule on what they have found as fact, but because of the nature of PRIVACY and DISCRETION on the substance of their consultation they simply are not free to fully explain themselves. An assembly at whatever level of function has responsibilities to maintain a "privileged information" status - to break confidentiality on ANY single thing can jeopardize the institution's right to keep ANYTHING confidential from a legaland societal standpoint.
As it is legally in the west, an assembly can claim privilege just as an attorney or doctor or clergyman can, but to maintain that claim everything must be confidential.
Regards,
ScottThe information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you.__You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-s!
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Re: Devastating stampede

[Gilberto Simpson]

On 9/2/05, Scott Saylors <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>  
>  
>  
> 
> 
> Gilberto Simpson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: 
>  
> 
> Ok, I was sloppy in how I spoke. "Fundamentalist" Bahais and
> non-Fundamentalist Bahais. And some "Fundamentalist" Bahais might have
> PhDs and academic positions.
> 
> Peace
> 
> Gilberto 
> 
> Gilberto, 
> 
> I have been enjoying this dialogue, by the way, thank you for exploring it
> with me. 

You are very welcome.

> 
> I feel that the essence of the Baha`i Faith is like the essence of Islam.
> Submission to the Message and to God. "Fundamentalism" has nothing to do
> with it. 
> 

I'm not sure what you mean here. Although definitions may vary, I
think it is totally reasonable to come up with a definition of
"fundamentalism" which makes sense across religions.


Peace

Gilberto


 
 
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Re: Devastating stampede

[Gilberto Simpson]

On 9/2/05, Scott Saylors <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
  

> 
> > Yes, at each juncture there has been a falling away from the message. This
> > is not unique to the Baha`i Faith either. 
> > 

Agreed.

Scott:
> > When Shi'ih and Sunni began their tragic split, this was just such a
> > "falling away". I am not going to venture an opinion as to which was the
> > true path of Islam, but I must note that the "falling away" left two very
> > strong and numerous groups, each claiming the distinction of being the
> > "true" Islam.
> 

Gilberto:
> Perhaps you as an individual don't have an opinion (which is fine). It
> is my understanding that the Bahai faith teaches that Shiis are more
> correct. But I wouldn't speak about the split in the way you do. At
> least from Sunni scholars who I would respect, Shiis! for the most part
> are *actually* Muslim.
> 

Scott:
> I doubt you could find a Shi'ih who does not accept that Sunni are muslims.
> They feel them misguided, and perhaps less "orthodox", but MUSLIMS anyway.
> Same goes for Sunni muslims, they will accept that a Shi'ih muslims is a
> believer in the prophet and the Qur'an, even if they think he is misguided
> and mistaken. Same goes for Sufi, Shaykhi, Seveners, Eleveners, Fivers,
> etc., etc. 

Actually, I know there are people who would call themselves Sunnis who
think that Shiis aren't Muslim. I don't know specifically of an
example for the reverse position but I would also be surprised if
there weren't at least one somewhere. Similarly, there are Protestants
who will not recognize that Catholics are Christians. (even though
they are the majority of self-identified Christians) . But in these
examples, I'm fairly certain that the mainstream knowledgable orthodox
perspectives are more inclusive and are more tolerant of difference.

 
> I would never say that anyone who professes the Prophethood of Muhammed and
> the Truth of the Qur'an to be a muslim, even if he has a few things
> "squirrely" from my point of view. 
> 
> I consider Juan Cole to be a Baha`i, even though he has splintered himself
> off of the body of the faith. 

Wow. I'm actually impressed. In the past I've found Bahais who would
not say he was one of their number.

He professes the Prophethood of Baha`u'llah
> and the Writings as the Truth. 

Yes.

> Personally, I believe that putting my own ego
> ahead of unity is wrong, but that is for me to say only about myself.

Actually I read that he "voluntarily" removed himself from the Bahais
in order to not be divisive.

Peace

Gilberto


 
 
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Re: Devastating stampede

[Scott Saylors]

Gilberto Simpson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: 

Ok, I was sloppy in how I spoke. "Fundamentalist" Bahais andnon-Fundamentalist Bahais. And some "Fundamentalist" Bahais might havePhDs and academic positions.PeaceGilberto
Gilberto,
I have been enjoying this dialogue, by the way, thank you for exploring it with me.
I feel that the essence of the Baha`i Faith is like the essence of Islam. Submission to the Message and to God. "Fundamentalism" has nothing to do with it.
The fundamental thing is that I interpret the writ for me, and impose that interpretation on no one else. I live by what I decide the faith demands of me. I would suppose that I may or may not understand at any given moment what is demanded of me and what is not; but I leave myself room to grow in that understanding as time passes.
Those who have an axe to grind against the institutions of the faith usually do not have an axe at all, just an ego without an edge, and an ego can never stand up to the grinding of the stone, it wears itself away with no gain.
Detachment from all else but God is the key. None of us can do that completely, but it is our responsibility to try. When my ego would pit me against the unity of the cause, I hope I will always let go of the ego and cling to the cause.
"Blessed are they that have soared on the wings of detachment and attained the station which, as ordained by God, overshadoweth the entire creation, whom neither the vain imaginations of the learned, nor the multitude of the hosts of the earth have succeeded in deflecting from His Cause. Who is there among you, O people, who will renounce the world, and draw nigh unto God, the Lord of all names? Where is he to be found who, through the power of My name that transcendeth all created things, will cast away the things that men possess, and cling, with all his might, to the things which God, the Knower of the unseen and of the seen, hath bidden him observe? Thus hath His bounty been sent down unto men, His testimony fulfilled, and His proof shone  35  forth above the Horizon of mercy. Rich is the prize that shall be won by him who hath believed and exclaimed: "Lauded art Thou, O Beloved of all worlds! Magnified be Thy name, O Thou the Desire of every understanding
 heart!""
 (Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 34)
I think Islam would hold me to the same standard.
Regards,
 
Scott
 



 
 

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As human beings, we are endowed with freedom of choice, and we cannot shuffle off our responsibility upon the shoulders of God or nature. We must shoulder it ourselves. It is our responsibility. Arnold J. Toynbee 

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Re: Devastating stampede

[Scott Saylors]

Gilberto Simpson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

On 9/2/05, Scott Saylors <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:> Gilberto Simpson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: > > Dear Scott, I think you may have misunderstood what I meant to say. I> didn't mean that there were different groups disagreed about the> status of the Bab. I'm saying that among those who believe in the> status of the Bab, there are differences and disagreements about other> matters.> I said it that way because on previous occasions when I've seen the> issue discussed, "Bahai" is usually defined in very narrow way which> defines sectarian problems out of existence.> Every time there was a transition in leadership (Bab, Bahaullah,> Abdul-Baha, Shoghi Effendi, UHJ) there was a split between those who> took one fork and those who went some other way.> That's all I'm saying.> > Peace> > Gilberto> >
 Gilberto,> > I certainly took no offense and am heartily sorry if you thought I had.> ?!? No, I didn't think you were offended. I really just meant amisunderstanding had taken place.> Yes, at each juncture there has been a falling away from the message. This> is not unique to the Baha`i Faith either. > > When Shi'ih and Sunni began their tragic split, this was just such a> "falling away". I am not going to venture an opinion as to which was the> true path of Islam, but I must note that the "falling away" left two very> strong and numerous groups, each claiming the distinction of being the> "true" Islam.Perhaps you as an individual don't have an opinion (which is fine). Itis my understanding that the Bahai faith teaches that Shiis are morecorrect. But I wouldn't speak about the split in the way you do. Atleast from Sunni scholars who I would respect, Shiis!
  for the
 most partare *actually* Muslim.
Gilberto,
I doubt you could find a Shi'ih who does not accept that Sunni are muslims. They feel them misguided, and perhaps less "orthodox", but MUSLIMS anyway. Same goes for Sunni muslims, they will accept that a Shi'ih muslims is a believer in the prophet and the Qur'an, even if they think he is misguided and mistaken. Same goes for Sufi, Shaykhi, Seveners, Eleveners, Fivers, etc., etc.
I would never say that anyone who professes the Prophethood of Muhammed and the Truth of the Qur'an to be a muslim, even if he has a few things "squirrely" from my point of view.
I consider Juan Cole to be a Baha`i, even though he has splintered himself off of the body of the faith. He professes the Prophethood of Baha`u'llah and the Writings as the Truth. Personally, I believe that putting my own ego ahead of unity is wrong, but that is for me to say only about myself. As to those who have, under the Baha`i tradition "broken the covenant", I will leave them to God for He is their Hope and Refuge. I am not the judge of the matter.

Regards,
 
Scott
 



 
 

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Re: Devastating stampede

[Gilberto Simpson]

Ok, I was sloppy in how I spoke. "Fundamentalist" Bahais and
non-Fundamentalist Bahais. And some "Fundamentalist" Bahais might have
PhDs and academic positions.

Peace

Gilberto



On 9/2/05, Scott Saylors <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> Gilberto Simpson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: 
> 
> 
> On 9/2/05, Iskandar Hai, M.D. wrote:
> > I guess I understand now what your question is.
> 
> More a suggestion than a question.
> 
> > And let me now try to
> > share with you my own limited understanding of the issue(s). We believe
> > that one of the things that has done the most damage to any religion is
> > disunity, divisions, sectarianisms because there was no clearly defined
> > line of succession or authority after the Founder. 
> 
> Sure, that's a general problem. But as an outsider, I see that among
> the group of people who believe the Bab is a Manifestation, there are
> still differences of opinion on different questions. Even among those
> who believe in Bahaullah. Even among those who accept the Guardianship
> of Shoghi Effendi. And even now, even in the forum, one can see
> tensions between "fundamentalist" Bahais and the more "academic"
> Bahais.
> 
> Dear Gilberto,
> 
> I think that the term "fundamentalist Baha`i" is a chimera.
> 
> I can name a long list of "academic" Baha`i's (actually another chimera),
> who are academic as hell, and whom those who claim discrimination at the
> hands of "fundamentalist Baha`i's", would quickly claim to be
> "FUNDAMENTALISTS" of the worst stripe.
> 
> They have erectged a "strawman" to burn in effigy. And, after all, strawmen
> are also chimerae.
> 
> Regards,
> 
>  
> 
> Scott
> 
>  
>  
> The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto
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> intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity
> named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy
> and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is
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>  
>  
> 
>  
> As human beings, we are endowed with freedom of choice, and we cannot
> shuffle off our responsibility upon the shoulders of God or nature. We must
> shoulder it ourselves. It is our responsibility. 
> Arnold J. Toynbee 
> 
 
 
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Re: Devastating stampede

[Gilberto Simpson]

On 9/2/05, Scott Saylors <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Gilberto Simpson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: 
> 
 
> Dear Scott, I think you may have misunderstood what I meant to say. I
> didn't mean that there were different groups disagreed about the
> status of the Bab. I'm saying that among those who believe in the
> status of the Bab, there are differences and disagreements about other
> matters.
 
> I said it that way because on previous occasions when I've seen the
> issue discussed, "Bahai" is usually defined in very narrow way which
> defines sectarian problems out of existence.
 
> Every time there was a transition in leadership (Bab, Bahaullah,
> Abdul-Baha, Shoghi Effendi, UHJ) there was a split between those who
> took one fork and those who went some other way.
 
> That's all I'm saying.
> 
> Peace
> 
> Gilberto
> 
> Gilberto,
> 
> I certainly took no offense and am heartily sorry if you thought I had.
> 


?!? No, I didn't think you were offended. I really just meant a
misunderstanding had taken place.


> Yes, at each juncture there has been a falling away from the message. This
> is not unique to the Baha`i Faith either. 
> 
> When Shi'ih and Sunni began their tragic split, this was just such a
> "falling away". I am not going to venture an opinion as to which was the
> true path of Islam, but I must note that the "falling away" left two very
> strong and numerous groups, each claiming the distinction of being the
> "true" Islam.

Perhaps you as an individual don't have an opinion (which is fine). It
is my understanding that the Bahai faith teaches that Shiis are more
correct. But I wouldn't speak about the split in the way you do. At
least from Sunni scholars who I would respect, Shiis for the most part
are *actually* Muslim.


Peace

Gilberto


 
 
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Re: Devastating stampede

[Gilberto Simpson]

Yeah, both statements say essentially the same thing. They are pretty
much equally offensive, equally problematic. You are just putting your
foot further in your mouth by making it an ethnic thing (North
Americans?!?!)

-Gilberto


On 9/2/05, Max Jasper <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Simply I meant: the abasement and humiliation descending upon Muslims,
> which
> of course are getting momentum and escalate as time passes, is a direct
> result of their own actions by rejecting the new teachings of God,
> insisting
> to implement obsolete doctrines, and distancing themselves from the true
> spiritual teachings of Qur'an, and in detail, finding themselves, their
> institutions and leaders in exact positions defined in the given link:
> http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/se/PDC/pdc-23.html
> 
> Max.
> 
> |
> |So what did you mean by:
> |"It appears that such events are part of a much greater
> |calamities on Muslims due to their own actions:
> |http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/se/PDC/pdc-23.html";
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 
 
 
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Re: Devastating stampede

[Iskandar Hai, M.D.]

On Fri, 2 Sep 2005, Gilberto Simpson wrote:

> 
> Every time there was a transition in leadership (Bab, Bahaullah,
> Abdul-Baha, Shoghi Effendi, UHJ) there was a split between those who
> took one fork and those who went some other way.
> 
> That's all I'm saying.
> 
> Peace
> 
> Gilberto

First of all, the Babi religion is an independent religion. 

Yes, it's true that after Baha'u'llah passed away there was a "split" as
you say. I had already mentioned that the Covenant did not go
unchallenged. But the beauty and strength of the Baha'i Faith is that none
of the splits lasted beyond a few years. The Covenant protected the Baha'i
community. Just study the history of the challenge to the Covenant after
Baha'u'llah passed away, for example. Consider the calibre of the persons
involved and follow the story. The whole thing almost died away even
before `Abdu'l-Baha had passed away. The point being that there was no
lasting sect. It was a major test for Baha'is.  

Iskandar



 
 
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Re: Devastating stampede

[Scott Saylors]

"Iskandar Hai, M.D." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Sufis can be Shi`ah or Sunni. 
 
Or Christians or Jews for that matter. The preponderance of Sufi are muslims, but its not really a requirement. One really needs only be a monotheist to embrace Sufi, and which Prophet one follows is relatively immaterial, since the Sufi would essentially accept them all.
 
Regards,
 
Scott



 
 

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Re: Devastating stampede

[Iskandar Hai, M.D.]

Well, regarding sectarianism in Islam: I guess it's the proverbial
half-empty versus half-full glass. As I see them, the divisions are deep,
significant and at times unbridgeable. You see the differences as
insignificant. For instance, on the issue of succession, you say that
Sunnis have a high regard for Shi`ah Imams. That might be true. But for
the Shi`ah, that's not enough. The Shi`ah belive that *only* the Imams
(and the Imams *only*) were the true and legitimate infallible successors
to the Prophet Muhmmad PBUH and that Abu-Bakr, Omar, and UthmAn were
usurpers of `Ali's rightful position. If Sunnis accept that, they have
defined themselves out of existence. Shi`ah also cannot accept Abu-Bakr,
Omar, and UthmAn as co-equals of `Ali either. If Shi`ah accept that, they
have defined themselves out of existence.  

Regarding the Iraqi constitution, again, the stumbling blocks are not
restricted to ethinc issues only. The Shi`ah-Sunni tension is quite
obvious and quite severe. Just look at what happed on Wednesday. Why
would someone start such a rumour during the Shi`ah procession anyway?

Sufis can be Shi`ah or Sunni. 

Regarding differences of opinion: sure there are differences of opinion
amongst Baha'is. The Baha'i Faith actually encourages differences of
opinion; it doesn't teach uniformity of thought and sameness. All the
differences of opinion are under the Covenant and they are promoted and
protected. `Abdu'l-Baha says that the sparkle of truth shines after the
clash of ideas. And that's the beauty of it and the strength of the Baha'i
community.   

Regarding uniting the whole world under the banner of Islam: go for it.
Baha'is are interested in promoting peace, unity, fellowship, tranquility
and brotherhood amongst humanity. I have no problem with that if Muslims
can achieve it. Best wishes and best of luck. 

Anyhow, since you say that your point was merely a suggestion and not a
question, then I'm not so sure if any further discussion will help
anyways. Seems that you had already made up your mind; so, if you have a
question, there can be further discussion. Otherwise we welcome your
comments and suggestions. 

Iskandar

On Fri, 2 Sep 2005, Gilberto Simpson wrote:

> On 9/2/05, Iskandar Hai, M.D. <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > I guess I understand now what your question is.
> 
> More a suggestion than a question.
> 
> 
> Peace
> 
> Gilberto
> 
> 



 
 
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Re: Devastating stampede

[Scott Saylors]

Gilberto Simpson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

On 9/2/05, Iskandar Hai, M.D. <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:> I guess I understand now what your question is.More a suggestion than a question.> And let me now try to> share with you my own limited understanding of the issue(s). We believe> that one of the things that has done the most damage to any religion is> disunity, divisions, sectarianisms because there was no clearly defined> line of succession or authority after the Founder. Sure, that's a general problem. But as an outsider, I see that amongthe group of people who believe the Bab is a Manifestation, there arestill differences of opinion on different questions. Even among thosewho believe in Bahaullah. Even among those who accept the Guardianshipof Shoghi Effendi. And even now, even in the forum, one can seetensions between "fundamentalist" Bahais and the more "academic"Bahais.
Dear Gilberto,
I think that the term "fundamentalist Baha`i" is a chimera.
I can name a long list of "academic" Baha`i's (actually another chimera), who are academic as hell, and whom those who claim discrimination at the hands of "fundamentalist Baha`i's", would quickly claim to be "FUNDAMENTALISTS" of the worst stripe.
They have erectged a "strawman" to burn in effigy. And, after all, strawmen are also chimerae.
Regards,
 
Scott



 
 

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Re: Devastating stampede

[Scott Saylors]

Gilberto Simpson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: 

Dear Scott, I think you may have misunderstood what I meant to say. Ididn't mean that there were different groups disagreed about thestatus of the Bab. I'm saying that among those who believe in thestatus of the Bab, there are differences and disagreements about othermatters.I said it that way because on previous occasions when I've seen theissue discussed, "Bahai" is usually defined in very narrow way whichdefines sectarian problems out of existence.Every time there was a transition in leadership (Bab, Bahaullah,Abdul-Baha, Shoghi Effendi, UHJ) there was a split between those whotook one fork and those who went some other way.That's all I'm saying.PeaceGilberto
Gilberto,
I certainly took no offense and am heartily sorry if you thought I had.
Yes, at each juncture there has been a falling away from the message. This is not unique to the Baha`i Faith either. 
When Shi'ih and Sunni began their tragic split, this was just such a "falling away". I am not going to venture an opinion as to which was the true path of Islam, but I must note that the "falling away" left two very strong and numerous groups, each claiming the distinction of being the "true" Islam. Even though factioning continued, these factions continued to thrive. 
This fracturing of the course of Islam is very similar to the fracturing of Christianity, it has serious reflections in the fracturing of Buddhism, and Hinduism. These factions remained vigorous and unity was totally lost.
On the other hand, in the Baha`i Faith from the time of the Bab until the time of the institution of the Universal House of Justice one cannot say that the attempted schismatics have flourished. In fact one must draw the assumption that tiny splinters became microscopic splinters and as time passes these splinters vanish. The faith is left intact to a degree never attained by any other faith tradition in the past.
Will there come a day when the Baha`i Faith DOES splinter? I would have to say the answer is probably "yes". This would be the established senescence of a revelation as it eventually becomes lost in empty ritual and groundless dogma. This appears to be the natural progression of a faith, from energetic youth, through cohesive maturity, to decrepitude and senescence.
That is why faith is renewed from time to time, and it is always renewed in the place where the conditions are most abject.
I think Baha`u'llah promised us at least a thousand years of "cohesive maturity".
This distinction is, I believe, a maor advancement in the spiritual progress of the human race.
"Furthermore, just as the solar cycle has its four seasons the cycle of the Sun of Reality has its distinct and successive periods. Each brings its vernal season or springtime. When the Sun of Reality returns to quicken the world of mankind a divine bounty descends from the heaven of generosity. The realm of thoughts and ideals is set in motion and blessed with new life. Minds are developed, hopes brighten, aspirations become spiritual, the virtues of the human world appear with freshened power of growth and the image and likeness of God become visible in man. It is the springtime of the inner world. After the spring, summer comes with its fullness and fruitage spiritual; autumn follows with its withering winds which chill the soul; the Sun seems to be going away until at last the mantle of winter overspreads and only faint traces of the effulgence of that divine Sun remain. Just as the surface of the material world becomes dark and dreary, the soil dormant, the trees nak!
 ed and
 bare and no beauty or freshness remain to cheer the darkness and desolation, so the winter of the spiritual cycle witnesses  256  the death and disappearance of divine growth and extinction of the light and love of God. But again the cycle begins and a new springtime appears. In it the former springtime has returned, the world is resuscitated, illumined and attains spirituality; religion is renewed and reorganized, hearts are turned to God, the summons of God is heard and life is again bestowed upon man."
 (Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith - Abdu'l-Baha Section, p. 255)
 



 
 

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As human beings, we are endowed with freedom of choice, and we cannot shuffle off our responsi

RE: Devastating stampede

[Max Jasper]

Simply I meant: the abasement and humiliation descending upon Muslims,
which
of course are getting momentum and escalate as time passes, is a direct
result of their own actions by rejecting the new teachings of God,
insisting
to implement obsolete doctrines, and distancing themselves from the true
spiritual teachings of Qur'an, and in detail, finding themselves, their
institutions and leaders in exact positions defined in the given link:
http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/se/PDC/pdc-23.html

Max.

|
|So what did you mean by:
|"It appears that such events are part of a much greater
|calamities on Muslims due to their own actions:
|http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/se/PDC/pdc-23.html";






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Re: Devastating stampede

[Gilberto Simpson]

On 9/2/05, Iskandar Hai, M.D. <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I guess I understand now what your question is.

More a suggestion than a question.

> And let me now try to
> share with you my own limited understanding of the issue(s). We believe
> that one of the things that has done the most damage to any religion is
> disunity, divisions, sectarianisms because there was no clearly defined
> line of succession or authority after the Founder. 

Sure, that's a general problem. But as an outsider, I see that among
the group of people who believe the Bab is a Manifestation, there are
still differences of opinion on different questions. Even among those
who believe in Bahaullah. Even among those who accept the Guardianship
of Shoghi Effendi. And even now, even in the forum, one can see
tensions between "fundamentalist" Bahais and the more "academic"
Bahais.



> Now, in the Baha'i Dispensation, we have a written Covenant as to the line
> of succession and authority after Baha'u'llah by the Founder Baha'u'llah
> Himself. Did no one try to challenge this? No, some did try to challenge
> it. But Baha'u'llah promised humanity that the challenges would not amount
> to sectarianism and that the purity and integrity of His teachings would
> remain inviolate.

> Now, regarding what thw Wahhabis did to Mecca and Medina in 1802 and later
> in early 20th century after the fall of the Ottoman Caliphate: obviously,
> the violence was man-made. It was perpetrated by human beings (Sunni
> Wahhabi Muslims) against other human beings (Shi`ah Muslims) and I don't
> know how to put it so that it's less unpleasant. Yes, I'm certainly aware
> that there are Sufi Muslims, Sunni Muslims, and Shi`ah Muslims at times
> praying together and I'd certainly hope and pray for more unity amongst
> the sects and more fellowiship and unity between members of different
> religions also but differences do exist even in the manner some rituals of
> the salAT are observed.


But one of the beautiful things about Islam is that Muslims of
different madhahib can still pray together anyway. They all believe in
the same Quran, the same prophet, the same pillars of practice. And
the differences are relatively minor.

> With regards to issues of succession and line of
> authority, the differences between Shi`ah and Sunni are 
> really deep and major and unbridgeable.

I disagree. I think an orthodox and traditional Sunni perspective is
very close to a Shia perspective. For example, all of the major sufi
tariqats have chains of authority which include some of the shii
imams. Most of the sufi orders have chains which go from Muhammad
(saaws) to Ali (raa). A sunni is still able to aknowledge the
greatness and high spiritual stations of the imams.


> As another example, just see how difficult
> it is for Iraqis (just about all of them Muslims) to 
> agree upon a Constitution.

That's not a theological problem. And its not a particularly deep one.
It's more like an ethnic conflict. The religious differences between
Catholics and PRotestants are much wider than the sunni-shia split and
yet the Troubles in Ireland are on their way to being resolved.

In any case, it is easier to imagine Muslims becoming unified than
Bahais taking over everything.

Peace

Gilberto


 
 
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Re: Devastating stampede

[Gilberto Simpson]

On 9/2/05, Max Jasper <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Please notice that I never suggested that notion. Someone assumed I had
> meant so and heaped some abusive words on that notion. Very customary in
> discussions among North Americans.

So what did you mean by:
"It appears that such events are part of a much greater calamities on
Muslims due to their own actions:
http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/se/PDC/pdc-23.html";
?


> 
> |
> |So when you expressed shock at Max for suggesting that the
> |deaths of the Muslim women and children were due to some kind
> |of punishment I felt better about your intentions.
> |> > and other Bahai dissidents, etc.)
> |> >
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> 
 
 
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Re: Devastating stampede

[Gilberto Simpson]

Dear Scott, I think you may have misunderstood what I meant to say. I
didn't mean that there were different groups disagreed about the
status of the Bab. I'm saying that among those who believe in the
status of the Bab, there are differences and disagreements about other
matters.

I said it that way because on previous occasions when I've seen the
issue discussed, "Bahai" is usually defined in very narrow way which
defines sectarian problems out of existence.

Every time there was a transition in leadership (Bab, Bahaullah,
Abdul-Baha, Shoghi Effendi, UHJ) there was a split between those who
took one fork and those who went some other way.

That's all I'm saying.

Peace

Gilberto


On 9/2/05, Scott Saylors <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> Gilberto Simpson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: 
> 
> 
> On 9/2/05, Iskandar Hai, M.D. wrote:
> > I'm trying to emphasize that religious animosity and warfare and sectarian
> > hatred and violence are really really destructive even though it's
> > exercised by a tiny minority of folks. 
> 
> And I would suggest that a better way to do that on a Bahai list would
> be to talk about the conflicts between those who believe in the Bab's
> status as a manifestation (Azalis, Remeyites, Juan Cole and other
> Bahai dissidents, etc.)
> 
> Peace
> 
> Gilberto
> 
>  
> 
> Gilberto,
> 
>  
> 
> "Mainstream" Baha`i's do not quibble with the status of the Bab as a
> Manifestation. He was. By the way, those you referred to as Azalis do not
> call themselves "Azalis", they call themselves "Bayanis". The breaking point
> of belief was that the followers of Azal and some other, now mostly extinct
> groups of Babis did not accept Baha`u'llah as a Manifestation - in
> particular His claim to be "He Whom God Will Make Manifest".
> 
> Not all of those Babis were willing to accept Subhi Azal's claim either.
> 
> As to Remeyites, they do not quibble that the Bab was a Manifestation in His
> Own right. Not any of the multitude of splintered splinters of groups who
> stem from the Remeyites either. Juan Cole seems to consider himself a Baha`i
> whether or not the Baha`i Administrative Order does. He does not quibble
> with the status of the Bab or Baha`u'llah as Manifestations. His problem is
> with the modern-day establishment (as best I understand his position, and I
> certainly hope I am not misstating. it).
> 
> Baha`i "dissidents" to the best of my knowledge all consider the Bab and
> Baha`u'llah to be Manifestations of God. Their problem with acceptance of
> the "mainstream" lies further down the pike after the passing of Abdu'l Baha
> mostly.
> 
>  
> 
> Regards,
> 
>  
> 
> Scott
> 
>  
>  
> The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto
> ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is
> intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity
> named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy
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>  
>  
> 
>  
> As human beings, we are endowed with freedom of choice, and we cannot
> shuffle off our responsibility upon the shoulders of God or nature. We must
> shoulder it ourselves. It is our responsibility. 
> Arnold J. Toynbee 
> 
 
 
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Re: Devastating stampede

[Iskandar Hai, M.D.]

I guess I understand now what your question is. And let me now try to
share with you my own limited understanding of the issue(s). We believe
that one of the things that has done the most damage to any religion is
disunity, divisions, sectarianisms because there was no clearly defined
line of succession or authority after the Founder. This lack of a
universally accepted line of authority led to divisions. Let me just
hasten to add, though, that this lack of a clearly defind Covenant does
not make Islam or Christianity or Judaism false. It's just that
contradictory man-made interpretations crept into religions from the very
early days after Christ or Muhammad. And divisions &  sectarianisms were
therefore unavoidable. 

Now, in the Baha'i Dispensation, we have a written Covenant as to the line
of succession and authority after Baha'u'llah by the Founder Baha'u'llah
Himself. Did no one try to challenge this? No, some did try to challenge
it. But Baha'u'llah promised humanity that the challenges would not amount
to sectarianism and that the purity and integrity of His teachings would
remain inviolate. So, when you study the history of the Baha'i Faith and
the Covenant (there are two books by Adib Taherzadeh in English on this
history), you see that none of the challenges ever amounted to anything
after the challenger passed away. So, the unity of the Baha'i Faith
community has been preserved. I'm not saying there never ever will be any
challenges, etc.; but, we believe that God has promised that the unity of
the human race will eventually be established under the Covenant of
Baha'u'llah and He will, therefore, make sure that His own followers will
remain united. 

Now, regarding what thw Wahhabis did to Mecca and Medina in 1802 and later
in early 20th century after the fall of the Ottoman Caliphate: obviously,
the violence was man-made. It was perpetrated by human beings (Sunni
Wahhabi Muslims) against other human beings (Shi`ah Muslims) and I don't
know how to put it so that it's less unpleasant. Yes, I'm certainly aware
that there are Sufi Muslims, Sunni Muslims, and Shi`ah Muslims at times
praying together and I'd certainly hope and pray for more unity amongst
the sects and more fellowiship and unity between members of different
religions also but differences do exist even in the manner some rituals of
the salAT are observed. With regards to issues of succession and line of
authority, the differences between Shi`ah and Sunni are really deep and
major and unbridgeable. As another example, just see how difficult
it is for Iraqis (just about all of them Muslims) to agree upon a
Constitution. Again, let me hasten to add, this does not make Islam a
wrong religion. God forbid! 

The tomb of the Prophet Muhammad PBUH is still there in Medina, yes. But,
the Wahhabis make sure that it's no different from any other tomb. In
other words, no shrine, no mausoleum, nothing fancy. A good history of
Saudi Arabia would be the one by Madawi al-Rasheed: "A History of Saudi
Arabia" (2003); and for Wahhabism, Hamid Algar's book: "Wahhabism: A
Critical Essay" (2002). Also, "Jihad: The Trail of Political Islam" (2002)
and "The War for Muslim Minds: Islam and the West" (2004) both by Gilles
Kepel.   

I'm pretty sure there are others on this list who can give you much better
answers than me; but, this is Labor Day weekend in the USA and most folks
are travelling or vacationing. 

Iskandar

On Fri, 2 Sep 2005, Gilberto Simpson wrote:

> I've gotten into discussions before with Bahais where they tried to
> say that the Bahai faith has never split and that its unity is
> promised by the central figures and is proof of its divine origin and
> at the same time, these Bahais would make a big deal about divisions
> within Islam as if it were evidence for the end of the Islamic
> dispensation. (BTW the tomb of Muhammad (saaws) is still there in
> Medina).
> 
> 
> 
> Peace
> 
> Gilberto
> 
> On 9/2/05, Iskandar Hai, M.D. <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > I'm not sure if I get your point but go ahead and lead a thread for
> > discussion, start a new subject line for a discussion. We can all discuss
> > and learn together. Or, did I totally misunderstand what you are trying to
> > say?
> > 
> > Anyway, we Baha'is certainly do believe that the Bab is an independent
> > Manifestation of God, the Inaugurator of a new Dispensation (religion).
> > 
> > Iskandar
> > 
> > 




 
 
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