Re: The Baha'i Praises of Islam
On Thu, 16 Dec 2004 19:55:12 -0900, Sandra Chamberlain [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear Gilberto, As a former member of a protestant Christian church, The Disciples of Christ, I found your comment a bit perplexing. Like Patti, I've always felt appellation disciple referred to anyone who believed in and followed the teachings of Christ (in this instance). Actually that is an interesting coincidence. I grew up in a Disciples of Christ Church too. I understand that this is how many Christians read the Bible, i.e. disciple = believer. And maybe I'm overstating this. But after gaining a certain amount of distance from Christianity I was just struck by the way in which Jesus' relation with his disciples was similar to a sufi shaykh's relationship with his disciples. And then when I would reread the Gospels certain passages would stand out as being consistent with this slightly different reading. For example, the way that Jesus and his disciples remained a seperate group from John the Baptist and his disciples. (Why didn't John just tell all his followers to become disciples of Jesus?) Or consider Matthew 13 [10] Then the disciples came and said to him, Why do you speak to them in parables? [11] And he answered them, To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. So some parts of Jesus' message were for the crowds. But some were for the inner core of disciples. Or again Mathew 19, after mentioning his teaching on divorce: [10] The disciples said to him, If such is the case of a man with his wife, it is not expedient to marry. [11] But he said to them, Not all men can receive this saying, but only those to whom it is given. [12] For there are eunuchs who have been so from birth, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by men, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. He who is able to receive this, let him receive it. So again some of the things which Jesus taught aren't meant to be for everyone but just for he who is able to receive this only those to whom it is given. Or again, even the fact that we talk about the 12 disciples, and later the 11, and then the 12 again, strongly suggests that a disciple isn't the same as the general believer since Jesus had more than 12 people who accepted his teachings and followed him, for example the famous women who were certainly believers but not disciples. If it were intended that certain laws were only binding on the original 12 disciples what would be the point of Christ's teachings? I believe His admonitions were for all to follow and spread those teachings by word and deed. Well here is another example which should be pretty clear. In Matthew 10 [5] These twelve Jesus sent out, charging them, Go nowhere among the Gentiles, and enter no town of the Samaritans, [6] but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. [7] And preach as you go, saying, `The kingdom of heaven is at hand.' [8] Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse lepers, cast out demons. You received without paying, give without pay. [9] Take no gold, nor silver, nor copper in your belts, [10] no bag for your journey, nor two tunics, nor sandals, nor a staff; for the laborer deserves his food. So the disciples here are basically taking a kind of vow to poverty, they made a special commitment to be wandering preaches without a fixed home. So would you agree that the disciples had extra instructions which weren't binding on everyone. Or are you saying that all Christians are supposed to make this kind of vow of poverty? Peace Gilberto My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: The Baha'i Praises of Islam
Yeah, actually that seems right on target. I'm honestly a little surprised though. In the Bahai writings I think Paul is described as a saint and an apostle and a most faithful servant of Jesus and his epistles are quoted from as well. I guess, that just implies a certain amount of respect but doesn't necessarily imply infallibility. Peace Gilberto On Thu, 16 Dec 2004 08:42:10 -0600, Mark A. Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gilberto, At 08:32 AM 12/16/2004, you wrote: I think there is a fairly large disconnect between what Jesus taught and Christian doctrines. I think that is largely because, as I wrote: Regrettably, the particularized counsel furnished in the epistles traditionally attributed to the apostle Paul was, within a few centuries of his passing, inappropriately institutionalized and univeralized into a supposedly inerrant bedrock of faith. The main branches of Christendom were forever frozen in the past. The Pauline letters should have been regarded as an example to believers who, like Paul, had spiritually experienced the risen Christ, or Inner Light, without having encountered him in the flesh. Then later Christians could have been 'Pauls' to their own nations and communities. http://exemplars.bahaifaith.info/ Mark A. Foster * http://markfoster.net Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu -- My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: The Baha'i Praises of Islam
Hello Gilberto and Mark, Gilberto wrote: In the Bahai writings I think Paul is described as a saint and an apostle and a most faithful servant of Jesus and his epistles are quoted from as well. I guess, that just implies a certain amount of respect but doesn't necessarily imply infallibility. Ron replies: In my opinion, infallibility, when interpreted and understood in the English language with all of its connotations from Christian history, always, always, always causes the most major of problems. Again, in my opinion there are no such things as infallible understandings of any Writings. Having authorized interpreters does not eliminate this problem, since their authorized Interpretations (writings) also must be understood and interpreted. Mark wrote: Regrettably, the particularized counsel furnished in the epistles traditionally attributed to the apostle Paul was, within a few centuries of his passing, inappropriately institutionalized and universalized into supposedly inerrant bedrock of faith. The main branches of Christendom were forever frozen in the past. The Pauline letters should have been regarded as an example to believers who, like Paul, had spiritually experienced the risen Christ, or Inner Light, without having encountered him in the flesh. Then later Christians could have been 'Pauls' to their own nations and communities. http://exemplars.bahaifaith.info/ Ron replies: Yes, I think you make a very important point here, and one that needs to be heard by Baha'is today, in order to avoid making similar mistakes to the ones the early Christians made. Statements by our Central Figures were often made to address particular circumstances, and yet we are inappropriately institutionalizing and universalizing them into supposedly an inerrant bedrock of general rules that are then applied literally under inappropriate circumstances, freezing the Bahai community into rigid positions that are out of touch with current and future reality. A great example of this, in my opinion, is the policy of Review. Another example is the electoral system, the minute and specific details of which are prematurely fossilized in a form appropriate to a smaller community of 50 years ago but wildly inappropriate to today and even more so in regards to the future. Peace, Ron Stephens __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: The Baha'i Praises of Islam
On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 07:40:04 -0800, Ronald Stephens [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello Gilberto and Mark, Hello Ronald. Gilberto wrote: In the Bahai writings I think Paul is described as a saint and an apostle and a most faithful servant of Jesus and his epistles are quoted from as well. I guess, that just implies a certain amount of respect but doesn't necessarily imply infallibility. Ron replies: In my opinion, infallibility, when interpreted and understood in the English language with all of its connotations from Christian history, always, always, always causes the most major of problems. Again, in my opinion there are no such things as infallible understandings of any Writings. Having authorized interpreters does not eliminate this problem, since their authorized Interpretations (writings) also must be understood and interpreted. Yeah, that seems like a reasonable statement. Mark wrote: Regrettably, the particularized counsel furnished in the epistles traditionally attributed to the apostle Paul was, within a few centuries of his passing, inappropriately institutionalized and universalized into supposedly inerrant bedrock of faith. The main branches of Christendom were forever frozen in the past. The Pauline letters should have been regarded as an example to believers who, like Paul, had spiritually experienced the risen Christ, or Inner Light, without having encountered him in the flesh. Then later Christians could have been 'Pauls' to their own nations and communities. http://exemplars.bahaifaith.info/ Yeah, I started to look around on that website and some of the links. The idea of inner light is an interesting one. I wonder how Bahais generally view the Quakers? I've been to Quaker-style service where most of the people in the room weren't even Quaker. There was one more conventional Quraker, one who came from a Quaker-Buddhist background, 2 Bahais, 1 Muslim, and one or two others who are perhaps harder to describe religiously. Like Bahais I guess the Quakers don't think that revelation ends, but then they are less into the idea of authorized interpreters. Would the Bahai faith be opposed to Bahais participating in such services and trying to listen to revelation through the inner light? Peace Gilberto -- My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: The Baha'i Praises of Islam
Hi, Gilberto, At 06:40 AM 12/17/2004, you wrote: In the Bahai writings I think Paul is described as a saint and an apostle and a most faithful servant of Jesus and his epistles are quoted from as well. Sure, Paul may have been a great soul. However, to conclude that his words are verbally inerrant and intended to guide *all* churches the world over until Christ returns is a bit of a non-sequitur. ;-) If Christians wanted to rely upon Paul's wisdom, I think it would have been more sensible for them to model their contextualizations of the Gospel of Christ on those contained in Paul's epistles, i.e., to regard him as an exemplar. I guess, that just implies a certain amount of respect but doesn't necessarily imply infallibility. IMO, even infallibility doesn't imply infallibility. Mark A. Foster * http://markfoster.net Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: The Baha'i Praises of Islam
In a message dated 12/17/2004 10:06:31 AM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Would the Bahai faith be opposed to Bahaisparticipating in such services and trying to listen to revelationthrough the "inner light"? We are supposed to "consort with the followers of all faiths in the greatest amity. . . " I have no compunction in attending services in another faith, I decline the part of the service where "members only" are involved - like the Eucharist. That's a personal limitation for me. As to the inner light, well we are drawn to the light and the only light we can experience personally is that inner light, we seek the light elsewhere secondarily. Regards, Scott __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: The Baha'i Praises of Islam
In a message dated 12/17/2004 12:23:22 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: For instance, how will the fact that Google is about to digitize several major libraries relate to the absence of a global policy regarding online review? The US has already adapted to the realities of the net. Web pages do not need to go through review. I think the same pressures will eventually make the whole process untenable. It already creates more problems than it solves as best I can tell. Regards, Scott __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: The Baha'i Praises of Islam
Gilberto, At 10:05 AM 12/17/2004, you wrote: I wonder how Bahais generally view the Quakers? I've been to Quaker-style service where most of the people in the room weren't even Quaker. I subscribe to four Quaker-oriented email lists. There is currently an online culture war being waged between Christ-focused Quakers and liberal/universal Quakers. On those lists, I repeatedly read comments from Quakers complaining about the elevation of tradition over mysticism in Quaker meetings. The following essay is fairly typical: http://www.pendlehill.org/frames%20lectures/caldwell.html The appeal of Quakerism, especially its focus on the inner Light, to many people is understandable. However, most self-defined Christians are not joining Quaker churches and meetings (Friends United Meeting, Evangelical Friends International, etc.), and the more liberal Quaker meetings, such as those associated (in the U.S.) with the Friends General Conference, are experiencing similar declines in membership to liberal churches. There was one more conventional Quraker one who came from a Quaker-Buddhist background, 2 Bahais, 1 Muslim, and one or two others who are perhaps harder to describe religiously. Like Bahais I guess the Quakers don't think that revelation ends, but then they are less into the idea of authorized interpreters. Not all Quakers believe in the concept of divine revelation. Many are both anti-supernatural physicalists and secularists. Some are also involved with the Ethical Culture Society: http://www.aeu.org/ There are also many Quakers who define themselves as Jews, Buddhists, and neo-pagans. Would the Bahai faith be opposed to Bahais participating in such services and trying to listen to revelation through the inner light? Only if they officially joined the one of the Religious Societies of Friends. Mark A. Foster * http://markfoster.net Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: The Baha'i Praises of Islam
Mark wrote: If it were up to me, I would end it today. However, as time goes on, review may become increasingly irrelevant anyway. For instance, how will the fact that Google is about to digitize several major libraries relate to the absence of a global policy regarding online review? Well, one way the policy of review hurts is that there a lot less books written about Baha'i related topics, than there would be without review. Why invest the time and effort to write a book when it may never see the light of day because of review? There are also a lot less magazine articles, newspaper articles, and other communication pieces written and communication activities undertaken than there would be without review. The consequence is that the Faith gets a lot less publicity, and therefore gets noticed a lot less. On top of all that, the Baha'i books that are published are a lot less creative than they otherwise would have been, and so we get a lot of the same kind of books written over and over again, rather than new kinds of thinking, which would be more interesting and useful and therefore help to attract a lot more seekers to the faith. Without review, for all we know, there might have been Baha'i best-sellers; books about the Baha'i Faith, in whole or in part, that sold so many copies than they were atop the New York Times best sellers charts. We'll never know what we have lost. Yes, the internet helps. But the internet is not optimal for all kinds of communication, and internet communication has its down sides, as we all have seen. Ron __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: The Baha'i Praises of Islam
Gilberto, At 01:24 PM 12/17/2004, you wrote: And instead of the Eucharist, they sit around in meetings and wait for someone to be moved by the inner light. That is true with the unprogrammed meetings. However, the programmed meetings operate similarly to what one expect in any church (a paid minister, sermons, etc.). In fact, Evangelical Friends International supports the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association. Some Friends churches set aside some time for silence. Others have entirely discarded the practice. In the Midwest, where I am, most Quakers go to programmed meetings. However, there are two unprogrammed meetings (one Wilburite and the other Hicksite) here in the Kansas City area. Mark A. Foster * http://markfoster.net Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: The Baha'i Praises of Islam
Ron, At 01:12 PM 12/17/2004, you wrote: Well, one way the policy of review hurts is that there a lot less books written about Baha'i related topics, than there would be without review. Why invest the time and effort to write a book when it may never see the light of day because of review? I know of at least a few instances where that happened. On top of all that, the Baha'i books that are published are a lot less creative than they otherwise would have been, and so we get a lot of the same kind of books written over and over again, rather than new kinds of thinking, which would be more interesting and useful and therefore help to attract a lot more seekers to the faith. Personally, I am not sure. I think that, even without review, most of the published materials would be pretty lame anyway. For instance, if you are a Christian writer, and you want your books to be promoted through the usual channels and sold in Christian bookstores, you had better not make too many controversial statements. Yes, the internet helps. But the internet is not optimal for all kinds of communication, and internet communication has its down sides, as we all have seen. Eventually, I don't think there will be a difference between the Internet and a library. Most American colleges and universities already have online data bases (available only to faculty and students). They contain digitized journals, abstracts, and entire books. Would the Baha'i materials have been covered by review when those materials were in hard copy form, but not covered by review after they are placed on the Internet? There are also a growing number of online refereed journals. Mark A. Foster * http://markfoster.net Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: The Baha'i Praises of Islam
Gilberto, At 02:35 PM 12/17/2004, you wrote: I'm not sure if that is a good example. Most of the Christian bookstores have a very narrow focus, with a strong emphasis on materials which are used in churches (sunday school curricula, sheet music, that kind of stuff) so it isn't supersurprising that there is a strong avoidance of contraversey. It depends on the Christian bookstore. I think you may be talking about church supply stores. However, most major metropolitan areas have at least one Christian book superstore. One of the largest in the Kansas City area is one just four blocks from my home. (I stop by there on a regular basis.) But you can still read Spong, or Matthew Fox, or more intellectual works from mainstream bookstores or New Age bookstores. Christian bookstores are a huge retail market, and there are a lot of people who purchase all of their books from them. They would not likely carry books by John Shelby Spong or Matthew Fox. I know that the store near me doesn't sell books by these authors. Mark A. Foster * http://markfoster.net Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: The Baha'i Praises of Islam
Gilberto: Not exactly. I'm was saying **Jesus** didn't change the laws. But then Pauline Christianity after him declared most or all of the rules of the Torah abrogated. I think there is a fairly large disconnect between what Jesus taught and Christian doctrines. Patti: I largely agree with you on this. Patti: My interest in the Templars stems (other than a supposed connection to the Priory of Scion that Dan Brown writes about in The Da Vinci Code) to the fact that a group of German Templars, by studying the prophecies of the Bible actually determined the time place and moved to Mt. Carmel to look for the return of Christ and lived just below the spot on Mt Carmel where Baha'u'llah pitched His tent when He was finally allowed a bit of freedom during His exile to Akka. Gilberto: Did Bahaullah know about the Templars and their association with Mt. Carmel when he chose to put his tent there? Patti: I don't know the answer to that one; however, in that day it may have been one of the few places around Akka someone could pitch a tent (i.e. not privately claimed or in cultivation)? Baha'u'llah was confined in His exile to the vicinity around Akka. Maybe someone else could shed more light on this. Gilberto: The disciples of Jesus were a special group with a more specialized set of requirements. Some teachings were for them, and other teachings were for the general crowd. Not all men can receive this saying, but only those to whom it is given. So Jesus wasn't abolishing the laws in the Torah about divorce, he was giving more specific instructions to his disciples. Patti: That's an interesting way of looking at it. I've never made a distinction between disciples--to me a believer is a disciple. Gilberto: Well, think about it. There were 12 disciples at first, but there were others who believed without being disciples (the various Marys for instance, Nicodemus, Joseph of Arimethea, etc.) Gilberto: I think if you look at the instructions Jesus gives to his disciples in the New Testament it would be difficult to impossible to base an entire country on those principles: Patti: I like your comparison of Christ's disciples and Sufi mystics, and certainly you have found some material to distinguish some disciples from some believers. I'm still not certain that I would make an overall distinction between disciple believer. I would distinguish between the 12 Apostles and other believers. It can perhaps be argued that when Christ speaks of only some being about to understand the parables that it was between disciples and other believers; however, I think I would take it to be between believers and non-believers. I think that perhaps Christ is more clear about who is NOT a believer (and these seem to me to be a fairly high bar in accordance with the stringent requirments you speak about for specific disciples): Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. (King James Bible, Matthew 7:20-23 ) Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. (King James Bible, Matthew 25:41-45 ) Patti __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: The Baha'i Praises of Islam
On Thu, 16 Dec 2004 05:36:39 -0800, Patti Goebel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gilberto: I think Jesus substantially continued to endorse the laws of the Torah and taught his followers to continue to follow them. He just deepened their understanding of its principles. So in declaring that the laws were mostly abrogated, Christianity didn't progress it actually lost out and cut itself off from certain spiritual riches which were part of Judaism and the practice of Jesus and the first disciples. Islam, by having a shariah which is so similar to this way of life shares in these spiritual riches which Christianity had cut itself off from. Patti: I thought you were the one arguing that Christianity didn't change the laws. Now you say that Christianity declared that the laws of the Torah were mostly abrogated. Not exactly. I'm was saying **Jesus** didn't change the laws. But then Pauline Christianity after him declared most or all of the rules of the Torah abrogated. I think there is a fairly large disconnect between what Jesus taught and Christian doctrines. Patti: I think you and I were pretty close to being essentially on the same page here, and perhaps I got the discussion a bit off track when I used the term abrogated when speaking of the Sabbath. I do believe that Christ actually fulfilled the law of the Torah (although more in a spiritual sense than a literal sense), although he de-emphasized (I actually think it's pushing it a bit too far to say abrogated) some of the social laws. If you are aware of the different perspectives in The Seven Valleys, I would say that the difference between thinking that the laws are different is a matter of names, while by the time one attains the 7th Valley (or 7th heaven) the understanding is that they (in this case the laws) are all essentially the same on that spiritual level and lead in toward the same outcome.. Gilberto: I'll have to look more into that. Patti: My interest in the Templars stems (other than a supposed connection to the Priory of Scion that Dan Brown writes about in The Da Vinci Code) to the fact that a group of German Templars, by studying the prophecies of the Bible actually determined the time place and moved to Mt. Carmel to look for the return of Christ and lived just below the spot on Mt Carmel where Baha'u'llah pitched His tent when He was finally allowed a bit of freedom during His exile to Akka. Gilberto: Did Bahaullah know about the Templars and their association with Mt. Carmel when he chose to put his tent there? Patti: I simply do not see how you come up with the shariah having spiritual riches that Christianity cut itself off from in its core teachings. Gilberto: Because the rituals and practices of Islam and Judaism transform the most mundane moments of everyday life into sacred events and have the capacity to make a person very conscious of God's presence. Christianity does this to a smaller degree. Gilberto: He doesn't change the law of the Sabbath. The incident in question was relatively unique. Patti: I'm not certain that it was that unique. Here are a few examples: Matthew 12:1 At that time Jesus went on the Sabbath day through the corn; and his disciples were an hungred, and began to pluck the ears of corn and to eat. Right. That incident is probably the same one we were discussing before, just in a different gospel. Mark 3:2-4 And they watched him, whether he would heal him on the Sabbath day; that they might accuse him. And he saith unto the man which had the withered hand, Stand forth. And he saith unto them, Is it lawful to do good on the Sabbath days, or to do evil? to save life, or to kill? But they held their peace. Gilberto: Again Jesus isn't abolishing the Sabbath. He isn't saying the Sabbath is like any other day. He's not declaring that it is lawful to do other things on the sabbath. He's clarifying a very specific and particular exception to the rules. I only appreciated this after being Muslim for a while. But the scholars who interpret Islamic laws or Jewish laws aren't as stupidly legalistic as some seem to think. For example, in Islam it is well known that pork is prohibted. But what if you are stuck on a deserted island and you are starving to death and the only thing to eat available is pork. What do you do? Well, this is what the Quran says: [16.115] He has only forbidden you what dies of itself and blood and flesh of swine and that over which any other name than that of Allah has been invoked, but whoever is driven to necessity, not desiring nor exceeding the limit, then surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. So Islamic law is certainly capable of recognizing that there are extreme situations where the normal rules don't apply. But it is still the case that in general pork is prohibited. I think one can understand the above example in the New Testament the same way. Jewish law even before Jesus already recognized that the
RE: The Baha'i Praises of Islam
As Susan Maneck is fond of quoting, He doeth whatsoever He willeth. Huh? I thought I was fond of She doeth whatsoever She willeth. ;-} __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: The Baha'i Praises of Islam
Susan, At 11:05 AM 12/13/2004, you wrote: Huh? I thought I was fond of She doeth whatsoever She willeth. ;-} I wonder if Terry Culhane is reading this. ;-) Mark A. Foster * http://markfoster.net Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: The Baha'i Praises of Islam
Hi, Gilberto, At 12:00 PM 12/13/2004, you wrote: I'm not sure why you are assuming He doesth whatsoever He willeth would preclude God's will from being constant. If we really do believe that God can do what He wants then why wouldn't that include the possibility of having a constant will? I am not making a prior judgement about whether God's Will is constant in any particular situation. I am assuming that God *can* change His mind. Or a Perennial Philosophy or a Last Prophet or whatever. He doeth whatsover he willeth. One of the problems with the philosophia perennis is its assumption of *essential* constancy. But does that really mean the definition of murder is really flexible? Of course. You don't think so? I've always thought that on some level people still realize that plea-bargaining is cynical and dishonest in some respects. It involves a loss of integrity in exchange for convenience, efficiency on the government side and managing risk on the accused person's side. I think it is more complex than that. (I used to teach criminology.) In many cases, prosecutors will intentionally charge a person with a higher offense in order to pressure the defendant, and her or his attorney, to agree to a plea. Prosecuting attorneys often socially construct an alleged crime to suit the evidentiary requirements. It isn't cut and dry. However, aside from that issue, murder is simply a term for whatever legislators, as interpreted by judges (and juries), in a particular jurisdiction (country, province, state, etc.) decide should be murder. I'm not sure what you mean. Do you mean that christo-logy or in general theo-logy is not a matter of ontology but more a matter of what the tongue chooses to say or not say, so it is more a matter of practice? Not general theology. I was referring specifically to christology and prophetology. No. There is the famous (So I thought) fable of the blind men Yes, that is what I had in mind. The story is found in the literatures of Jainism, Buddhism, and Sufism. And what I would suggest is that the apparent disagreements among different religions might be resolved in a similar way and at the end of things we might be allowed to see and everything will make sense. IMO, seeing truth is another way of referring to the study of the revealed Word (the words of the Prophets). Mark A. Foster * http://markfoster.net Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: The Baha'i Praises of Islam
On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 15:00:24 -0600, Mark A. Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gilberto, At 01:41 PM 12/13/2004, you wrote: Okay, but what I'm saying is that one can say God *can* change His mind, but chose not to, at least not in an ultimate sense, hence the perennial philosophy. Mark: Most proponents of the perennial philosophy I have read would not agree with what you wrote, including the traditionalists and Huxley. They *begin* with the assumption, the foundationalism, that the same basic truths are repeated time and again, and they then proceed, deductively, to draw their conclusions from that assumption. Gilberto: I'm not convinced that what you wrote contradicts or precludes the possibility of what I wrote above. Gilberto: The Perennial philosophy doesn't imply putting presumtuous limits on God. The disagreement isn't about what God can do but over what God does do. Mark: Some of them may make that distinction, but, if so, I am unaware of it. You would need to show me an example. However, all the perennialists I have read assume that the perennial philosophy reflects the timeless Nature, or Essence, of God. Mark: One of the problems with the philosophia perennis is its assumption of *essential* constancy. Gilberto: I'm not sure why this is problematic. Mark: Because they fail to distinguish between God's Will and His Essence. Gilberto: So you are saying that both God's will and God's Essence can change? Gilberto: Right. I think that being actually guilty of murder in some moral sense is a very very different question from whether one is convicted guilty of murder in a court of law. Mark: Okay, but what is some moral sense? Are you referring to religious law? Gilberto: It could be religious or rooted in some ethical philosophy. Something other than just what the defense attorney, prosecuting attorney and a judge decide in a cigar smoke filled room. Gilberto: Innocent people are convicted all the time. Guilty people are let off on technicalities. That's why I don't think that plea bargaining or other such behavior is a good argument for the flexibilitiy of the definition of murder. Mark: I am not arguing for it. I am saying that definitions of murder are often grounded in opportunism, politics, and language games. Gilberto: On some level there is a distinciton between a good faith attempt to define murder, and the kinds of motivated arranements which happen in court cases. Gilberto: Ok. But my question is why you would say there is more than one elephant. Mark: It goes back to what I suggested before about each Revelation being a distinct paradigm. Gilberto: But the paradigm isn't the elephant, the paradigm is just the blind man's attempt to touch the elephant and guess at what it's really like. There is one unknowable essence, one elephant. Gliberto Different religions are looking at the one God in different ways. Mark: Yes, or, perhaps, as in the case of the Buddhisms, not focusing on God at all. gilberto: Sure: Gilberto: How do you see the analogy working? Mark: I am a perspectivist. I believe that there are many possible Baha'i faiths (small f) in the context of the Baha'i Faith. I wrote: IMO, seeing truth is another way of referring to the study of the revealed Word (the words of the Prophets). You replied: What you are saying doesn't make sense to me. Although I'm not sure how to pinpoint where the disagreement is. lol. A lot of people don't agree with me. You are not alone. Gilberto: I'm not surprised THAT we disagree, what I'm just trying to figure out is where we disagree. Some things you say sound more correct than what I've heard from other Bahais but you don't seem to accept the kinds of implications I would expect. Peace gilberto __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: The Baha'i Praises of Islam
On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 01:21:47 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 12/13/2004 12:14:59 AM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I forget if I've talked to you about this before. I would have thought that the elephant is God. Scott: I don't think we get to see GOD other than what the Prophets show us of Him. Hmm... but then that's kind of why we are the blind men who don't see the elephant directly. Moreover, in both Islam and Christianity the beatific vision of God is promised. I'm not sure what you mean below. Rumi's fable of the elephant and the blind men already comes with a particular context and meaning. I'm not sure why you are changing the meaning. And especially if in the Bahai faith there is one God, one religion, one humanity, why would there be more than one elephant? Is there something wrong with there being one elephant? Peace Gilberto So the continuity of the messages is that it is always an elephant, though the particular elephant this time may vary in color or shape of ears, or length of tail or length of tusks, each arguably is a perfect elephant when it is in view but the perfection lies within the elephant, and we should appreciate the perfection rather than just any elephant that might not possess that perfection at a particular time. Regards, Scott__ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu -- My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: The Baha'i Praises of Islam
Hi, Gilberto, At 04:08 PM 12/13/2004, you wrote: I'm not convinced that what you wrote contradicts or precludes the possibility of what I wrote above. If I understood you correctly, you suggested that (at least some?) proponents of perennialism might distinguish between actuality and necessity. In other words, even though the perennial philosophy has characterized certain (all?) traditions, movements, or (fill in the blank), you believe it unnecessary that it should continue as such in the future. I pointed out that every perennialist whose works I have read appeared to believe in the identity of the philosophia perennis with God's Nature (i.e., Platonism), and that, in this context, it has been regarded as invariable. So you are saying that both God's will and God's Essence can change? I don't know about God's Essence, but I think God and His Messengers *can* change Their minds or wills. On some level there is a distinciton between a good faith attempt to define murder, and the kinds of motivated arranements which happen in court cases. I agree. But the paradigm isn't the elephant, the paradigm is just the blind man's attempt to touch the elephant and guess at what it's really like. There is one unknowable essence, one elephant. Well, *I* was using the elephant as an illustration for a paradigm (a divine Revelation). I suppose one *could* use the same metaphor for the divine Essence. I'm not surprised THAT we disagree, what I'm just trying to figure out is where we disagree. Some things you say sound more correct than what I've heard from other Bahais but you don't seem to accept the kinds of implications I would expect. Okay then, a couple of questions: Which of my ideas appear correct to you (and why)? And what other implications of my ideas would you expect? Mark A. Foster * http://markfoster.net Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: The Baha'i Praises of Islam
In a message dated 12/13/2004 8:52:59 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Affirming everything so as to not offend, so I was surprisedthat you seemed to flat out reject the Trinity. In the Christian sense Baha`i's do not believe in the "Trinity" much either. Regards, Scott __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: The Baha'i Praises of Islam
Brent: Fulfill. Not co-opt. Gilberto: So what do you think co-opt means? Hi Gilberto, Please allow me to jump in here. I think it might be useful to look at how Christ fulfilled the law of Moses: Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Matthew 5:17-18 It seems that you are running into the same issue that came up way back then. Christ abrogated many of the social laws of Moses--eg. the Sabbath; however, the fulfillment was on the spiritual level--Christ's teachings moved forward the process of human spiritual growth. The believers could actually begin to understand on a deeper level and apply the laws with a level of meaning and understanding above rote obedience. Patti __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: The Baha'i Praises of Islam
Gilberto, At 08:52 PM 12/13/2004, you wrote: Speaking very loosely and generally and probably incorrectly, it seemed like you had a sincere healthy respect for religious diversity, not as absolutist as other Bahais I've come across. But then at the same time you seem deadset against perennialism. As a sociologist of religion, I respect many religions (socially constructed systems of beliefs and praxes, focused on the sacred/extraordinary, which unite people into moral/normative communities) on **their own** terms. Perennialism (Platonic syncretism) is, in my view, a type of ideational colonialism. Although many proponents of perennialism *claim* to respect other religions (as they define them), I see their approaches more as domination than respect. (I have similar views about the approaches of some Baha'is to various other religions - which resemble perennialism.) Also in other contexts, I've seen Bahais try to reconcile the Quranic criticisms of Christian theology with the Biblical statements of Christian theology and they seemed to want to have their cake and eat it too. Affirming everything so as to not offend, so I was surprised that you seemed to flat out reject the Trinity. The subject of the relationship between God, His Prophets, and the particular Holy Spirits of those Prophets has been discussed by `Abdu'l-Baha. His views bear little resemblance to either the Western/Eastern or the Oriental (Monophysite) constructions of the Trinity. Also the positive comments about Crowley and LaVey were surprising as well. I still find hermeticism, Thelema, and other such systems to be fascinating. Mark A. Foster * Portal: http://MarkFoster.net CompuServe: http://boards.M.Foster.name __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: The Baha'i Praises of Islam
There is a learned and friendly discussion between the erudite Mark and the erudite Brent. I think there is no doubt that there are many people of good will who invite peoples of their own Faith to look lovingly at the OTHER. I am particularly grateful to Mark Foster for providing this link http://www.sulekha.com/expressions/column.asp?cid=305972 it raised my awareness of Hindu sensitivities to another stratosphere... and I am most appreciative of the beautiful authoritative references Brent has adduced for my learned friend Gilberto... And Mark is right that since 1893 and the Columbia Exposition of Religions in Chicago where the Name of Baha'u'llah and His Mission was mentioned by Reverend Jessup many Hindus have been kindly disposed towards Islam in the West. BUT equally there are groups and thinkers amongst them who are frightened and apprehensive * After a brief overview of History-Centrism, the main purpose of this essay will be to explain the problems that Hinduism is facing because of #2, i.e., the false myth that it is the same as other religions. I shall show that the Sameness Myth suffers from at least three problems: Sameness with all other religions is incompatible with authentic Hindu dharma. Sameness is making Hinduism irrelevant and redundant. It is sliding Hinduism towards extinction by dilution and assimilation, in the same manner as Christianity's inculturation strategy made many pagan religions extinct. It positions Hinduism as a takeover target by History-Centric predators, with a friendly takeover of some components and a hostile takeover and/or outright cultural genocide of other components. In the aftermath of such takeovers the predators become stronger and the world less safe. Hence, sameness can at best be a short-term alternative and antidote to History-Centrism but it leads to unstable states of power that eventually feed more History-Centrism. The opposite of sameness is difference. Many scholars have considered 'difference' to be the source of tensions and violence. Hence, they promote the sameness myth. However, this is a European view based on their experience with Abrahamic religions that are History-Centric. This view does not apply to non-European cultures such as the Indic traditions that have a worldview of difference-with-respect. Difference-with-respect is an attitude that is practically unachievable through History-Centric religions, except in the form of artificial political correctness commonly referred to as 'tolerance'. My thesis of difference-with-respect is at odds with both #1 and #2 poles above. Furthermore, each pole's frenzy feeds the other: Moderate Hindus recoiling against religious violence have tended to gravitate towards sameness in order to dilute their distinct identities, and hence absolve themselves of 'Hindu shame'. Conversely, many Hindus who are concerned about the way the Sameness Myth deconstructs (and eventually destructs) their faiths have jumped on the History-Centrism bandwagon for identity protection, in the form of Hindutva. The following factors have contributed to the Sameness Myth: U-Turns and American Perennialism: Historically, sameness emerged out of 19th century neo-Hindu leaders' constructions of Hinduism that often mapped Indic categories on to Western ones[1]. For instance, Swami Vivekananda successfully popularized Hinduism in 19th century America. But later, many of his important Western disciples and sympathizers genericized Hinduism. Several of them eventually did U-Turns back into Western identity and Western thought. Perennialism and the New Age movement were by-products of such movements[2]. Meanwhile, the mainstream History-Centric Christianity did not dissolve itself or melt itself into sameness, but, on the contrary, it strengthened its positioning by appropriating from Hinduism. Opportunistic Hindu gurus: The Sameness Myth took a quantum leap in the 1960s when many Hindu gurus arrived in America. They attracted huge followings and piled up vast donations by playing the sameness game to appeal to the pop culture at the expense of authenticity. They lowered the bar for Westerners to enter into pop Hinduism, but this also lowered the bar to their exit once the fad had died and once enough components from Hinduism had been successfully appropriated into Western systems. (See details.[3]) Postmodernist intellectualism: Postmodernism is the academic equivalent of pop Vedanta as an intellectual framework to deconstruct identity. (While Vedanta deconstructs the individual ego, postmodernism mainly deconstructs the collective cultural identity.) It has intellectually disaggregated Hinduism into a library of random clip art that may be clicked-and-dragged into any belief system under the control and discretion of the new owner. (For instance, postmodernist frameworks allow scholars such as Courtright to misinterpret Hindu symbols arbitrarily, and to sell their works successfully at the
Re: The Baha'i Praises of Islam
On Sun, 12 Dec 2004 05:26:25 -, Brent Poirier [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Our friend Gilberto wrote: There are also scathing condemnations of Muslims as a community In the Baha'i Writings there are criticisms of Jews who did not recognize Jesus Christ, and Christians who did not recognize Muhammad, and Muslims who did not recognize the Bab and Baha'u'llah, and have mercilessly persecuted Their followers. It is a huge responsibility to reject the new Prophet of God when He appears, and not in keeping with the concepts of the people who await Him. Sure, and the Quran has both positive and negative statements about Jews and Christians as well. But I wouldn't claim to be Jewish or Christian in any sense, and I would want to be more open about my criticisms of those religions. Ok, there are at least two big questions we could toss around and juggle. One would be whether the Bahai claims regarding Islamic entities (i.e. Muhammad, the Quran, the imams, hadith, etc.) are true. And secondly, can Bahai claims be fairly described as affirming Islam in a positive sense, or do they result in co-opting Islam. I think your response largely deals with the first part to some degree but doesn't really address the second question (which is fine). Peace Gilberto __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: The Baha'i Praises of Islam
Gilberto, If I might jump in ... At 03:22 AM 12/12/2004, you wrote: One would be whether the Bahai claims regarding Islamic entities (i.e. Muhammad, the Quran, the imams, hadith, etc.) are true. Both Sunnah and Ashyaa claim to follow the legitimate successors to Muhammad. The only reason I accept the Imams is because their authority is established by Baha'u'llah. In terms of the ahadith, those which have been discussed by Baha'u'llah or `Abdu'l-Baha have authority in a Baha'i context. However, this is an entirely different matter from whether a particular hadith accurately reflects the words of Muhammad or His successors. In other words, a citation establishes authenticity in a Baha'i scriptural context. It does nothing to lend, or detract, the historical credence, or absence of it, which might be given to a tradition. And secondly, can Bahai claims be fairly described as affirming Islam in a positive sense, or do they result in co-opting Islam. No religion can be co-opted. They are each distinct divine Revelations. They are, in effect, like Kuhnian paradigms for a particular Dispensation, i.e., the period of time between one Prophet and the next. What may be evaluated as truthful contingent on one Revelation may be judged as false based on an earlier or a later one. Truth is relative. Mark A. Foster * http://markfoster.net Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: The Baha'i Praises of Islam
to these two verse; Who is more evil than one who is reminded of these revelations of his Lord (QURAN), then insists upon disregarding them? We will certainly punish the guilty. 32:22 from http://www.submission.org/had-corruption.html From Mark A. Foster Sent: 12 December 2004 10:08 To: Baha'i Studies Subject: Re: The Baha'i Praises of Islam Gilberto, If I might jump in ... At 03:22 AM 12/12/2004, you wrote: One would be whether the Bahai claims regarding Islamic entities (i.e. Muhammad, the Quran, the imams, hadith, etc.) are true. Both Sunnah and Shi'ah claim to follow the legitimate successors to Muhammad. The only reason I accept the Imams is because their authority is established by Baha'u'llah. In terms of the ahadith, those which have been discussed by Baha'u'llah or `Abdu'l-Baha have authority in a Baha'i context. However, this is an entirely different matter from whether a particular hadith accurately reflects the words of Muhammad or His successors. In other words, a citation establishes authenticity in a Baha'i scriptural context. It does nothing to lend, or detract, the historical credence, or absence of it, which might be given to a tradition. And secondly, can Bahai claims be fairly described as affirming Islam in a positive sense, or do they result in co-opting Islam. No religion can be co-opted. They are each distinct divine Revelations. They are, in effect, like Kuhnian paradigms for a particular Dispensation, i.e., the period of time between one Prophet and the next. What may be evaluated as truthful contingent on one Revelation may be judged as false based on an earlier or a later one. Truth is relative. Mark A. Foster On Sun, 12 Dec 2004 05:26:25 -, Brent Poirier [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Our friend Gilberto wrote: There are also scathing condemnations of Muslims as a community In the Baha'i Writings there are criticisms of Jews who did not recognize Jesus Christ, and Christians who did not recognize Muhammad, and Muslims who did not recognize the Bab and Baha'u'llah, and have mercilessly persecuted Their followers. It is a huge responsibility to reject the new Prophet of God when He appears, and not in keeping with the concepts of the people who await Him. Sure, and the Qur'án has both positive and negative statements about Jews and Christians as well. But I wouldn't claim to be Jewish or Christian in any sense, and I would want to be more open about my criticisms of those religions. Ok, there are at least two big questions we could toss around and juggle. One would be whether the Bahai claims regarding Islamic entities (i.e. Muhammad, the Qur'án, the imams, hadith, etc.) are true. And secondly, can Bahai claims be fairly described as affirming Islam in a positive sense, or do they result in co-opting Islam. I think your response largely deals with the first part to some degree but doesn't really address the second question (which is fine). Peace Gilberto __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: The Baha'i Praises of Islam
On Sun, 12 Dec 2004 04:07:48 -0600, Mark A. Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gilberto: And secondly, can Bahai claims be fairly described as affirming Islam in a positive sense, or do they result in co-opting Islam. Mark: No religion can be co-opted. They are each distinct divine Revelations. They are, in effect, like Kuhnian paradigms for a particular Dispensation, i.e., the period of time between one Prophet and the next. What may be evaluated as truthful contingent on one Revelation may be judged as false based on an earlier or a later one. Truth is relative. Gilberto: I think it is probably illuminating to think of different religions as paradigms. But then the view of progressive revelation and that time and date make a big difference is ITSELF part of the Bahai paradigm but there are others. One paper I found which I like on this subject is: called The Metaphysics of Interfaith Dialogue: A Qur'anic Perspective and is available at: http://www.iis.ac.uk/research/academic_papers/interfaith_dialogue/interfaith_dialogue.htm What I like about is that it articulates ideas similar to perennialism while rooting them very much in the Quran and the Sufi philosophical tradition. Instead of one religious dispensation replacing another through time, I think the Quran has more a sense of the communities co-existing simultaneously. For each We have appointed from you a Law and a Way (shir'atan wa minhajan). Had God willed, He could have made you one community. But that He might try you by that which He hath given you [He hath made you as you are]. So vie with one another in good works. Unto God ye will all return, and He will inform you of that wherein ye differed. (5:48). So during what you might call a single dispensation, there are different groups of human beings each following paths which are meaningful to them. I'm not a big fan of the whole clash of civilizations hypothesis (at least not the political implications) but I think that the gulf between civilizations can often be bigger than the gulf across ages, within the same civilization. And a good example would be Sino-Japanese civilizations where Some mix of Buddhism, Taoism and Confucianism have been a big part of the spiritual foundation in that part of the world for about 2600 years, and there is a real timeless quality to those principles, and those traditions are still meaningful to them, but I'm not sure most Westerners can hear the sound of one hand clapping, if that made any sense. Peace Gilberto My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: The Baha'i Praises of Islam
Dear Khazeh Wow, thanks for all that info. That's alot of content. Let me just respond to a few things: On Sun, 12 Dec 2004 11:17:19 -, Khazeh Fananapazir [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The Faith of Islam is confirmed. Some of the rules, regulations, and ordinances of the Dispensation are abrogated. And that sounds nice, but in certain respects it falls short. All the believers were encouraged in innumerable letters to study Islam as well. But of course there are many perceptions of Islam in the world...and all issues have been obfuscated because of Islamism or Qut.bism as ideologies. To be honest I've never understood what Islamism is. I think it's a made up term but I'm not sure there is a coherent consistent concept underneath. Muslims are supposed to live out their faith and positively influence the society around them, in the religious sphere, but also in culture, business, family life, the local neighborhood, and other levels. But I've never heard a good explanation of what the difference is between a serious Muslim who promotes Islam in the world, and an Islamist. Of course there are many discussions within the Islamic community about corruption of Hadith. Interestingly the Sacred Iqan of Baha'u'llah also quotes the same verses http://www.submission.org/had-corruption.html Actually there is a serious question of whether this group should be thought of as within the Islamic community. This position that hadith are generally corrupt and unreliable was popularized by Rashid Khalifa. And he didn't stop by getting rid of hadith but he also had this mathematical scheme which he used to start excluding verses from the Quran as well. And then some time either before or after that he declared himself to be a prophet. Something else to realize is that the Quran itself is not unlike the hadith. The Quran was transmitted to subsequent generations by the companions who witnessed Muhammad while he was reciting the verses of the Quran. And although some of it was written down on different objects and surfaces, some of it was preserved mainly in memory. And the same mechanism we get Quran from is the same mechanism we get the hadith from. (In fact, some hadith have about as many witnesses and transmitters as some parts of the Quran) And if you trust someone enough to lend them $500 then you should trust them enough to lend them $5. Peace Gilberto My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: The Baha'i Praises of Islam
of the Merciful to comply with those same rules and customs, which are current amongst the people, and were He to sanction their observances, such conflict and mischief would in no wise be made manifest in the world. This exalted tradition is attested and substantiated by these words which He hath revealed: The day when the Summoner shall summon to a stern business. (Baha'u'llah: The Kitab-i-Iqan, Pages: 238-239) As for ilm of H.adith [knowledge of H.adith] I DO ADMIRE YOU ON THIS AND WE COULD LEARN FROM YOU [Gilberto Simpson] ON THIS LIST http://members.cox.net/arshad/azmihad.html HADITH: RULES FOR ACCEPTANCE AND TRANSMISSION But again for my own soul I look to this Utterance in the start of the Iqan The essence of these words is this: they that tread the path of faith, they that thirst for the wine of certitude, must cleanse themselves of all that is earthly - their ears from idle talk, their minds from vain imaginings, their hearts from worldly affections, their eyes from that which perisheth. They should put their trust in God, and, holding fast unto Him, follow in His way. Then will they be made worthy of the effulgent glories of the sun of divine knowledge and understanding, and become the recipients of a grace that is infinite and unseen, inasmuch as man can never hope to attain unto the knowledge of the All-Glorious, can never quaff from the stream of divine knowledge and wisdom, can never enter the abode of immortality, nor partake of the cup of divine nearness and favour, unless and until he ceases to regard the words and deeds of mortal men as a standard for the true understanding and recognition of God and His Prophets. (Baha'u'llah: The Kitab-i-Iqan, Pages: 3-4) . Then will the manifold favours and outpouring grace of the holy and everlasting Spirit confer such new life upon the seeker that he will find himself endowed with a new eye, a new ear, a new heart, and a new mind. He will contemplate the manifest signs of the universe, and will penetrate the hidden mysteries of the soul. Gazing with the eye of God, he will perceive within every atom a door that leadeth him to the stations of absolute certitude. He will discover in all things the mysteries of divine Revelation and the evidences of an everlasting manifestation. (Baha'u'llah: The Kitab-i-Iqan, Page: 196) inasmuch as man can never hope to attain unto the knowledge of the All-Glorious, can never quaff from the stream of divine knowledge and wisdom, can never enter the abode of immortality, nor partake of the cup of divine nearness and favour, unless and until he ceases to regard the words and deeds of mortal men as a standard for the true understanding and recognition of God and His Prophets. So do not worry about this one or that one [when you mention the name of a particular scholar God rest his soul [rah.imahu-Allah] Gilberto Simpson Sent: 12 December 2004 16:10 To: Baha'i Studies Subject: Re: The Baha'i Praises of Islam Dear Khazeh Wow, thanks for all that info. That's a lot of content. Let me just respond to a few things: On Sun, 12 Dec 2004 11:17:19 -, Khazeh Fananapazir [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The Faith of Islam is confirmed. Some of the rules, regulations, and ordinances of the Dispensation are abrogated. POINT ONE] And that sounds nice, but in certain respects it falls short. All the believers were encouraged in innumerable letters to study Islam as well. But of course there are many perceptions of Islam in the world...and all issues have been obfuscated because of Islamism or Qut.bism as ideologies. POINT TWO] To be honest I've never understood what Islamism is. I think it's a made up term but I'm not sure there is a coherent consistent concept underneath. ... POINT THREE] Something else to realize is that the Quran itself is not unlike the hadith. The Quran was transmitted to subsequent generations by the companions who witnessed Muhammad while he was reciting the verses of the Quran. And although some of it was written down on different objects and surfaces, some of it was preserved mainly in memory. And the same mechanism we get Quran from is the same mechanism we get the hadith from. (In fact, some hadith have about as many witnesses and transmitters as some parts of the Quran) And if you trust someone enough to lend them $500 then you should trust them enough to lend them $5. Peace Gilberto __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion
Re: The Baha'i Praises of Islam
I wrote: However, since this subject is not, to my knowledge, clearly discussed in the Baha'i primary sources, I try not to limit my speculations. That should be, I try to limit my speculations. Mark A. Foster * http://markfoster.net Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: The Baha'i Praises of Islam
no Messenger before thee but We inspired him [saying]: There is no God save Me, so worship Me. (21:25). Naught is said unto thee [Muhammad] but what was said unto the Messengers before thee. (41:43). Diversity of Ways is Divinely Willed The conception of this essential religion or religion as such, far from obliterating differences between religions, actually presupposes formal religious diversity, regarding it not so much as a regrettable differentiation but a divinely willed necessity. The following verses uphold this calibrated conception which recognises the inner substance of religion inherent in all revealed religions, on the one hand, and affirms the necessity of abiding by the dictates of one particular religion, on the other. For each We have appointed from you a Law and a Way (shiratan wa minhajan). Had God willed, He could have made you one community. But that He might try you by that which He hath given you [He hath made you as you are]. So vie with one another in good works. Unto God ye will all return, and He will inform you of that wherein ye differed. (5:48). Unto each community We have given sacred rites (mansakan) which they are to perform; so let them not dispute with thee about the matter, but summon them unto thy Lord. (22:67). ... And they say: None entereth paradise unless he be a Jew or a Christian. These are their own desires. Say: Bring your proof if ye are truthful. Nay, but whosoever submitteth his purpose to God and he is virtuous, then his reward is with his Lord; no fear shall come upon them, and neither shall they grieve. (2:111-112). This verse comes as a concrete rebuttal of unwarranted exclusivism. It does not contradict the exclusivist claims of the Jews and the Christians with an exclusivism of its own, that is, with a claim that only Muslims, in the specific sense, go to paradise. Access to salvation, far from being further narrowed by reference to the privileged rights of some other group, is broadened, and in fact universalised: those who attain salvation and enter paradise are those who have submitted wholeheartedly to God and are intrinsically virtuous. Faith allied to virtue: such are the two indispensable requisites for salvation. Thus, it is perfectly justified to argue that the verse does not respond in kind to the exclusivism of the People of the Book, but rather, pitches the response on a completely different level, a supra-theological or metaphysical level, which surpasses all reified definitions, confessional denominations, communal allegiances and partisan affiliations. This supra-confessional conception is further strengthened by the following verses: It will not be in accordance with your desires, nor the desires of the People of the Scripture. He who doth wrong will have the recompense thereof, and will not find apart from God any protecting friend or helper. And whoso doeth good works, whether male or female, and is a believer, such will enter paradise, and will not be wronged the dint of a date-stone. Who is better in religion than he who submitteth his purpose to God (aslama wajhahu lillah), while being virtuous, and following the religious community of Abraham the upright?... (4:124-125). ... Beware of Restricting God to Ones Own Beliefs Thus, Ibn Arabis well-known warning against restricting God to the form of ones own belief is entirely in accordance with the thrust of this Quranic discourse: Beware of being bound up by a particular creed and rejecting others as unbelief! Try to make yourself a prime matter for all forms of religious belief. God is greater and wider than to be confined to one particular creed to the exclusion of others. For He says, To whichever direction you turn, there is the face of God. The Doctrine of Abrogation ... ... And finally: Call unto the way of thy Lord with wisdom and fair exhortation, and hold discourse with them in the finest manner. (XVI: 125). .. Emphasising That Which Unites ... http://www.iis.ac.uk/research/academic_papers/interfaith_dialogue/interfaith _dialogue.htm The width that separates the author from the Utterances of the Seven Valleys of Baha'u'llah is thinner than the thinnest membrane... And God willing He will one day see that Face too. With kind regards khazeh -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mark A. Foster Sent: 12 December 2004 17:18 To: Baha'i Studies Subject: Re: The Baha'i Praises of Islam Gilberto, At 09:45 AM 12/12/2004, you wrote: I think it is probably illuminating to think of different religions as paradigms. But then the view of progressive revelation and that time and date make a big difference is ITSELF part of the Bahai paradigm but there are others. In order for religions to progressively elevate souls, on the individual level, and societies, on the level of structurization or construction, they must reflect God's
Re: The Baha'i Praises of Islam
On Sun, 12 Dec 2004 11:18:00 -0600, Mark A. Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Springboarding from: The Metaphysics of Interfaith Dialogue: A Qur'anic Perspective http://www.iis.ac.uk/research/academic_papers/interfaith_dialogue/interfaith_dialogue.htm Before substantiating this conception of essential religion or religion as such by citing particular Qur'anic verses, it is important to mention very briefly the Qur'anic encounter between Moses and the mysterious personage al-Khidr, not mentioned by name in the Qur'an. Even in its literal aspect, the story alludes to the distinction between the form of religion and its transcendent essence, between exoteric and esoteric knowledge. Mark: IMO, that transcendental essence is God, as manifested in His Will, not an ontological perennialism. Gilberto: Especially given the other kinds of differences which Bahais seek to try to reconcile, could it be the distinction you are trying to make here is more along the lines of Po-tay-to, Po-tah-to? Gilberto: Instead of one religious dispensation replacing another through time, I think the Quran has more a sense of the communities co-existing simultaneously. Mark: That may be an accurate picture of the Baha'i Golden Age, as well (or at least a certain stage of it). However, since this subject is not, to my knowledge, clearly discussed in the Baha'i primary sources, I try not to limit my speculations. Gilberto: When I said co-existing I didn't mean to imply anything about the quality or nature of the relation between them. Crusades and witchhunts are also included in co-existing. I just meant to suggest the possibility that God let's us see according to our own paradigms. That religious diversity is ordained in some sense. There is an interesting hadith where God says I am as My servant thinks I am. I think there is a level where I think all religions (except for maybe the Hale-Bopp followin'-poison-kool-aid-drinking-gun-stockpilin' death cults) are all positve in that they all tend to reinforce and affirm the basic minimal standards of Earthling morality. And then in some narrower sense, the Abrahamic religions have alot more common ground. And then there is a sense in which I would say Islam is true and other religions are less true, but I would be willing to concede that I'm operating from a particular paradigm and that at the end of things when we hopefully can see things more clearly we'll all be able to laugh and say Oh, so THAT's what an elephant looks like Unto God ye will all return, and He will inform you of that wherein ye differed. (5:48). GIlberto: So during what you might call a single dispensation, there are different groups of human beings each following paths which are meaningful to them. I'm not a big fan of the whole clash of civilizations hypothesis (at least not the political implications) but I think that the gulf between civilizations can often be bigger than the gulf across ages, within the same civilization. Mark: Often? I am not sure. I would say sometimes. Gilberto: I'm talking about religious matters now. Spirituality, theology. And a good example would be Sino-Japanese civilizations where Some mix of Buddhism, Taoism and Confucianism have been a big part of the spiritual foundation in that part of the world for about 2600 years, and there is a real timeless quality to those principles, and those traditions are still meaningful to them, but I'm not sure most Westerners can hear the sound of one hand clapping, if that made any sense. Mark: Zen koans are a good example of why many people, myself included, have always found the Sino-Japanese versions of Buddhism (which are also syncretistic as you imply), to be unnerving. I find the Indo-Tibetan Buddhist traditions much more intelligible. Yes, so that would be a decent example of what Im talking about. The civilizational/cultural split seems is rather salient even in the same religion. Peace Gilberto [nice story] A while back, someone wrote the following to me: The Sino-Japanese tradition has the habit of 'collapsing' all things into one thing. Therefore in Zen, for example, meditation is all This same trend is seen in the idea that all that is necessary is to recite the Lotus sutra, Nicheren, or in, Pure Land, to recite the Nambutsu or even dispense with that for total surrender in faith to Amida Buddha. This sort of thing does not amuse the Indo-Tibetan Tradition, nor do they understand it because it is contrary to what Sakyamunibuddha taught, and contrary to the long unbroken tradition of Indo-Tibetan Buddhism that is an uninterrupted continuation of the Buddhasakyamuni's awakening. In this tradition, Buddhism is a path that begins witf elementary insights and practices at a basic level, then, having done that, one proceeds to the next level. Nothing is neglected and in this tradition the intellect is understood to be a major
RE: The Baha'i Praises of Islam
Spring boarding from: The Metaphysics of Interfaith Dialogue: A Qur'anic Perspective http://www.iis.ac.uk/research/academic_papers/interfaith_dialogue/interfaith _dialogue.htm Dear Gilberto I was thinking of the Name GERBERT as well as Gilberto tonight Gerbert studied in Islamic Universities in Spain and later became Pope Sylvester the IInd *** The Muslim State of Spain had cultivated a great civilization and a high degree of culture. Its well planned cities and well organised public works including the well laid out streets, parks, schools, colleges and hospitals made it a model State in the West whose phenomenal cultural, industrial and social progress was viewed with wonder by the Christian visitor. The Moors had introduced beneficial irrigation systems and new crops in Spain. The high class fabrics manufactured in their textile factories were used in the Royal Houses of Europe. Cordova, the Capital of Moorish Spain was the most cultured city of Europe. With its 113,000 houses, 21 suburbs, seventy big libraries and numerous colleges, mosques, palaces, parks and gardens it had acquired international reputation. With its well-illuminated streets, Cordova provided a striking contrast to the European cities and according to John William Draper, Seven hundred years after this time there was not so much as one public lamp in London... In Paris, centuries subsequently, whoever stepped over his threshold on a rainy day stepped up to his ankles in mud.' When the student of the University of Oxford abhorred baths as heathen custom the Moors enjoyed baths in luxurious establishments. Whenever the Christian rulers of European States needed an artist, physician or technical hand, they applied to the Cordova Government. The fame of the Muslim Capital penetrated as far as the distant Germany where a Saxon nun (Hrosvitha) styled it as 'The Jewel of the World'.' The great social and cultural progress of Cordova inspired awe and admiration in the hearts of European travellers The Muslims of Spain had taken long strides in almost all branches of knowledge and had evolved an educational system which embraced all sciences and arts. A large number of educational institutions had sprung up in the four corners of the State including in Cordova, Granada, Toledo and Seville, where learned teachers imparted lessons in the sciences and arts. These Islamic institutions of Muslim Spain and Sicily were the cradle of modern European civilization and the training ground of persons like Roger Bacon and Gerbert Aurillec who ultimately paved the way for the renaissance of Mediaeval Europe. The Christian students enjoyed absolute religious tolerance and complete social freedom in Muslim Spain, which attracted large number of Christian students from all parts of Europe, who after completing their studies in Moorish Schools went back to their native places and taught new theories to astonished people. From all parts of Europe, says Robert Briffault, numerous students betook themselves to the great Arab seats of learning in the search of light which only there was to be found. Alvaro, a Cordovan Bishop, writes in the 9th century A.D. 'All the young Christians who distinguished themselves by their talent, know the language and literature of the Arabs, read and study passionately the Arab books, gather at great expense great libraries of these, and everywhere proclaim with loud voice how admirable is that literature'.' The celebrated Gerbert of Aurillec who studied in Moorish school, brought from Spain some rudiments of astronomy and mathematics, and taught his astonished peoples from terrestrial and celestial globes. HIS GREAT KNOWLEDGE WHICH IN THE WORD OF WILLIAM OF MALMESBURY WAS 'STOLEN FROM THE SARACEN', HAD MADE HIM AS POPE SYLVESTER II. *** The bit about the Oxford University student and baths I testify too as I was at that Alma mater 12 years... __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: The Baha'i Praises of Islam
Hi, Khazeh, At 01:53 PM 12/12/2004, you wrote: Baha'u'llah's Writings please I beg you read: http://bahai-library.com/provisionals/basit.html One portion reads: Two stations can be observed in the Divine Unity: Existential Oneness (tawhíd-i wujudí), and this is that [station] wherein all things are negated with a 'no' and only the Absolute Reality is affirmed. This means the existence of nothing is acknowledged except the Absolute Reality, in the sense that all things, when compared with Its manifestation and remembrance, have been and will continue to be absolute nothingness (fana-yi mahd). IMO, that is a good example of establishing a revelational paradigm and interpreting various doctrines in that context. Mark A. Foster * http://markfoster.net Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: The Baha'i Praises of Islam
from Gilberto Simpson Dear Khazeh, Wow, that was again alot of content. Could I ask you a small favor? Would it be possible to cut-and-paste less, especially if you are not going to thoroughly discuss something and intersperse comments? In this last letter it was hard to tell what was the new material and what was the old. Dear Gilberto 1] You are right. I am sorry. It was the weekend here and I had a lot to read and offer. From tomorrow I shall not be able to write so much or maybe anything at all... On Sun, 12 Dec 2004 19:53:49 -, Khazeh Fananapazir [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: . http://www.iis.ac.uk/research/academic_papers/interfaith_dialogue/interfaith _dialogue.htm The width that separates the author from the Utterances of the Seven Valleys of Baha'u'llah is thinner than the thinnest membrane... And God willing He will one day see that Face too. My only response would be if that's actually true, then it suggests that perhaps many of the deep insights which are found in the Bahai writings were already there in the Quran, in hadith, in the writings of Sufis and the Islamic philosophical tradition. And so from a certain perspective, nothing is really missing. Peace Gilberto 2] On THIS SECOND POINT .And so from a certain perspective, nothing is really missingGilberto Yes dear Gilberto again you are RIGHT. That is why I would beg you beseech you to consider the Text from Baha'u'llah I offered this quotation from the IqtidArAt Baha'u'llah: Alwah-i-Had.rat-e-Baha'u'llah shaamil-e-Iqtidarat [Bombay 1893] pages 86-87. If the peoples of the world were to attain to the [Maqs.ud] purpose [aim, intention] of God they would not become veiled in the times of the Manifestation [z.uhur]. Thus although they recited the Book of God for years they did not attain a letter [h.arf] of its meanings [ma'aani].Thus... If it be said that all things [kull] were hidden and concealed [mastuur wa maknuun] in the Book of God, and, further, that in the Manifestation of the Point of Bayan [may the spirit of all being be His sacrifice!] the countenances of meanings [ma'aani] heretofore hidden in the chambers of divine Words [kalimaat] came forth from behind veils then this utterance is the indubitable truth [h.aqqun laa rayba fihi]. On the other hand If it be stated that in the past the meanings were mentioned in summary [ijmaal= abstract, summary, abridged, synopsis] and it is NOW that the Interpreter [mubayyin] and Expounder [mufas.s.il] has come this utterance is also true and no doubt attacheth thereunto. Finally if it be said that all that has appeared [z.aahir] in this New Wondrous Manifestation has not been there before [na-buudeh] and everything is a new [badee'] creation, this manner of utterance is also correct and accurate [sah.eeh. wa tamaam] for if the One True God [glorified be His Remembrance [Dhikr] speaks a Word- a Word which all peoples have been speaking from time immemorial nevertheless that Word is NEW were ye to ponder this theme in depth [tatafakkarun] ... Baha'u'llah Alwah-i-H.ad.rat-e-Baha'u'llah shaamil-e-Iqtidarat [Bombay 1893] pages 86-87. (provisional by this evanescent one) *** So if you kindly and lovingly repeat the gaze this Passage above says that in a sense all was revealed, in a sense, the purpose is disclosed NOW, in a sense, very little was revealed. *** Thus it is related in the Biharu'l-Anvar, the Avalim, and the Yanbu' of Sadiq, son of Muhammad, that he spoke these words: Knowledge is twenty and seven letters. All that the Prophets have revealed are two letters thereof. No man thus far hath known more than these two letters. But when the Qa'im shall arise, He will cause the remaining twenty and five letters to be made manifest. Consider; He hath declared Knowledge to consist of twenty and seven letters, and regarded all the Prophets, from Adam even unto the Seal, as Expounders of only two letters thereof and of having been sent down with these two letters. He also saith that the Qa'im will reveal ALL THE REMAINING TWENTY AND FIVE LETTERS. (Baha'u'llah: The Kitab-i-Iqan, Pages: 243-244)*** This Day is unique in this respect. The following analogy of the Holy Qur'an really deeply spiritually referring to this same insight 022.005 YUSUFALI: O mankind! ...(consider) that We created you out of dust, THEN [=thumma] out of sperm, THEN [=thumma]out of a leech-like clot, THEN [=thumma] out of a morsel of flesh, partly formed and partly unformed, in order that We may manifest (our power) to you; and We cause whom We will to rest in the wombs for an APPOINTED term, THEN do We bring you out as babes, then (foster you) that ye may reach your age of full strength... and (further), thou seest the earth barren and lifeless, but when We pour down rain on it, it is STIRRED (TO LIFE), IT SWELLS, AND IT PUTS FORTH every kind of beautiful growth (in pairs). I think Gilberto dear brother from one point of view you have received a lot. I will not
Re: The Baha'i Praises of Islam
Hi, Gilberto, At 05:29 PM 12/12/2004, you wrote: No, that's not what I meant. BOTH Po-tay-to and Po-tah-to they are just different ways of saying the same thing. I was asking if it was possible that saying God has one will is really the same as perennialism. Oh, I see. I don't think so, no. Perennialism is kind of revisionist Platonism. (I would say, neo-Platonism, but that term is already taken.) Most perennialists, including the Traditionalists, believe that there is a single ageless, universal truth, a doctrinal essence, which has been repeated time and again by various prophets, avatars, or gurus. What I am suggesting is that God can *will* whatever He chooses. He is not bound by a collective unconscious, world of ideal forms, or noosphere to repeat the same basic ideas or themes in every age. God can change His mind (bada), not in the sense of having done something wrong, but as an act of sovereign Will. In other words, He can do whatever He likes. But the Bahai writing necessarily do try to reconcile certain things which most folks would find contradictory. Like saying the Quran is the word of God (including its statements about Jesus) while at the same time having Shoghi Effendi assert that Jesus was divine and the Son of God. The Prophets reveal truths within the framework of God's Will. When Baha'u'llah writes, He does so, IMO, as the latest Messenger of God. Therefore, He addresses people of the present time and calls upon them to follow Him. He is not, to my understanding, advocating that Baha'is hegemonize or colonize other religions. His Revelation is not triumphalist. Sure, but the question is how to view that diversity. I mean a fundamentalist might recognize a variety of paradigms but then picks one and says all the others are just flat out wrong. That's not what Im talking about. IMO, religious hegemony is the other side of the coin to fundamentalism. Both reflect authoritarianism. Sure. Sure. I agree. I'm only speaking loosely. I probably could have said things more explicitly. All I had in mind was how most religions have a Golden Rule of some kind. Most religions would say murdering is wrong in most situations. But do they really say that murder is wrong? A great deal can be accomplished merely by changing the label. For instance, why is it that someone who kills another person unintentionally might be charged with involuntary manslaughter. However, the identical behavior in the military is called friendly fire, and, unless the troop was disobeying orders, it is unlikely she or he will ever be charged. More relevant to the subject, the taking of human, in the context of punishment, is termed capital punishment and is condoned by many scriptures. In the framework of war, it is simply called killing and is also condoned. In other words, it is relatively easy to escape the implications of our actions by simply playing language games. I mainly have in mind groups who would call themselves Jews, Christians, and Muslims, and their offshoots (So in the case of Judaism offshots would include groups like the Samaritans and Karites, in the case of Christianity there are groups like Rastafarians, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, with Islam there are examples like the Druzes) My point is that the terms Jew, Christian, and Muslim, in the framework of today's world, are unclear. One needs to specify particular branches of those religions. So for example they are all arguably loosely monotheistic, they think that Abraham had some special arrangement with God, which was continued with Isaac, Jacob and Moses. And these peoples are seen as the good guys. Would you regard Trinitarian Christians as monotheistic? I respect their right to believe what they want, but I would not call them monotheists. IMO, three persons in one is not One. Wasn't that Muhammad's point in the Qur'an - that Trinitarianism, even as different as its 7th-century Arabian version might be from the ones more common today, was shirk? What different elephats did you have in mind? Well, to use the analogy, I think that each Prophet's Revelation constitutes a new elephant. Mark A. Foster * http://markfoster.net Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: The Baha'i Praises of Islam
In a message dated 12/13/2004 12:14:59 AM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I forget if I've talked to you about this before. I would have thoughtthat the elephant is God. I don't think we get to see "GOD" other than what the Prophets show us of Him. So the continuity of the messages is that it is always an elephant, though the particular elephant this time may vary in color or shape of ears, or length of tail or length of tusks, each arguably is a perfect elephant when it is in view but the perfection lies within the elephant, and we should appreciate the perfection rather than just any elephant that might not possess that perfection at a particular time. Regards, Scott __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: The Baha'i Praises of Islam
Gilberto, At 09:53 PM 12/11/2004, you wrote: Oh and to add to Mark's list of non-Muslim religions which has positive things to say about Islam is Cao Dai. Yes, and there are many, many others, including the various branches of the Radhasoami movement. I have a collection of links to Cao Dai sites here: http://links.religionsnet.com/caodai.html Mark A. Foster * http://markfoster.net Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: The Baha'i Praises of Islam
Our friend Gilberto wrote: There are also scathing condemnations of Muslims as a community In the Baha'i Writings there are criticisms of Jews who did not recognize Jesus Christ, and Christians who did not recognize Muhammad, and Muslims who did not recognize the Bab and Baha'u'llah, and have mercilessly persecuted Their followers. It is a huge responsibility to reject the new Prophet of God when He appears, and not in keeping with the concepts of the people who await Him. Furthermore, the Baha'i Writings are only stating what Muhammad Himself stated about some of His own followers in this Day. These are Hadith that are found on Muslim websites and viewed as authentic, quoted in Shoghi Effendi's book The Promised Day is Come: A day shall be witnessed by My people, their own traditions condemn them, whereon there will have remained of Islam naught but a name, and of the Qur'n naught but a mere appearance. The doctors of that age shall be the most evil the world hath ever seen. Mischief hath proceeded from them, and on them it will recoil. And again: Most of His enemies will be the divines. His bidding they will not obey, but will protest saying: 'This is contrary to that which hath been handed down unto us by the Imams of the Faith.' And still again: At that hour His malediction shall descend upon you, and your curse shall afflict you, and your religion shall remain an empty word on your tongues. And when these signs appear amongst you, anticipate the day when the red-hot wind will have swept over you, or the day when ye will have been disfigured, or when stones will have rained upon you. (The Promised Day is Come, p. 99) the claim that the validity of the Islamic dispensation has been abrogated We believe it is a fundamental reality of the greatest importance to realize, that every succeeding Prophet has the authority to abrogate the laws of previous Prophets. The Baha'i Revelation is not exempt from this, because the Prophet Who succeeds Baha'u'llah may abrogate the laws of this Dispensation. (Shoghi Effendi, Directives from the Guardian, p. 61) Abrogation of His laws in a succeeding Dispensation is not a discredit to any Prophet, for the wholesome medicine God sent for the needs of a previous millennium, may not be as perfect as that He sends at a later time; and again, He may re-establish an earlier law at a later time. Shoghi Effendi also wrote: There are many authorised traditions from Muhammad stating clearly (as explained in the qn) that the promised Q'im would bring a new Book and new Laws. In other words abrogating the law of Islam. (The Unfolding Destiny of the British Baha'i Community, p. 426) there are certainly many Bahais who have argued that Islam is unsuitable for the modern age, compared it to poison even While some aspects of Islam are not the remedy for today's needs (some are), I have not, in 34 years of being a Baha'i, heard a single one compare any Divine Revelation including that of the Prophet Muhammad's to poison. I think that would be a shameful act, to speak so disrespectfully of the Holy Word. The Quran is on the lips, but the hadith are discarded. The Hadith are not discarded; in the Baha'i Dispensation they are relegated to a subordinate station to the Revealed Word. I think this is because in Islam the Hadith, even the contradictory ones and those of weak lineage and authenticity, are all viewed as being as binding as the Word itself. To rectify this over-emphasis, Baha'u'llah has modified their role. They are not to be suppressed, but in His Dispensation traditions do not possess authority. Obviously, the Islamic Hadith are not wholesale rejected; there are a multitude of quotations from them in Baha'i literature. They are described as holy utterances (Gleanings p 186) and are quoted extensively in Epistle to the Son of the Wolf and in the Iqan. The prophet and the imams are praised. But the principles of the scholars who succeeded them are rejected. The Prophet and the Imams are indeed praised to the highest heavens: References in the Bible to Mt. Paran and Paraclete refer to Muhammad's Revelation. Deuteronomy 33.2; Genesis 21.21.; Numbers 12.16; Numbers 13.3.; Genesis 17.20 refers to the twelve Imams and in the Revelation of St. John, Chap. 11.; where it mentions two witnesses, it refers to Muhammad and Ali. (Shoghi Effendi, Letters from the Guardian to Australia and New Zealand, p. 41) And likewise in the sacred verse: 'Obey God and obey the Apostle, and those among you invested with authority.' By 'those invested with authority' is meant primarily and more specially the Imams -- the blessings of God rest upon them. They verily are the manifestations of the power of God and the sources of His authority, and the repositories of His knowledge, and the daysprings of His commandments. (Baha'u'llah, quoted in The Promised Day is Come, p. 72) The guidance vouchsafed to the Imams regarding the laws
Re: The Baha'i Praises of Islam
Hi, Brent, At 12:16 AM 12/12/2004, you wrote: ... in terms of raw numbers, I feel that the Baha'i Faith has touched more people worldwide than all of those movements combined. Personally, I am not sure. The Vedanta Society of Swami Vivekananda, which regards Muhammad as an Avatar, has had a powerful influence in India. Vivekananda's historical construction of Sri Ramakrishna as the avatar of the age has, probably more than any other movement, changed the definition of Hinduism (Santana Dharma) in the minds of many Indians, especially (but not exclusively) educated ones, from a religion of many particularized sects to a universal religion. (The Theosophical Society has also played a role in this process.) I posted a link to an article a few weeks ago which focused on this subject. The author, a Hindu, was very critical of this reconstruction of Hinduism, and he felt that it might eventually result in the increasingly irrelevancy of his religion. the Baha'i Teachings which laud Muhammad and the Qur'an have reached ears those groups have not succeeded in reaching, have been seen as more credible than those groups, have certainly made more inroads into the Christian West than any other group, as regards improving people's attitudes towards Islam as a divine Revelation. Again, I am not sure. The Theosophical Society, and its offshoots, and the Vedanta Society laid the foundation for the New Age movement, and many new agers also regard Muhammad as an Avatar or perfect master. There are many more self-identified new agers in the U.S., and in some other countries (especially the UK), than Baha'is. Mark A. Foster * http://markfoster.net Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
