re: Limits on promoting ideas
I'm responding here to some of Susan M's posts in the thread UHJ membership and women, because the issue for me, in responding to those posts, is not women on the Universal House of Justice. The issue for me is the allegation that the Universal House of Justice has been trying to censor and repress some topics of discussion among Baha'is. Susan, I repeat my question: When you say that the House of Justice prohibited the publication of the Service of Women paper, do you mean that it made a formal decision, in accordance with its constitution, to prohibit the publication of the paper? You wrote But they have made it more than clear that the matter is not up for debate. Are you talking about one of the following? As mentioned earlier, the law regarding the membership of the Universal House of Justice is embedded in the Text and has been merely restated by the divinely appointed interpreters. It is therefore neither amenable to change nor subject to speculation about some possible future condition. (The Universal House of Justice, 1988 May 31, Women and UHJ Membership) Similarly, for believers to be drawn into discussion of subjects which the Writings themselves tell us will find clarification only through the passing of time, such as the wisdom of Baha'u'llah's limiting membership of the Universal House of Justice to men, the full implication of the Will and Testament, and the process by which the Baha'i Commonwealth will emerge, would tend to divert attention from real and pressing issues. Such speculation may, indeed, be the real reason why such subjects are often so ardently pursued by opponents of the Cause. Jim __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
re: Limits on promoting ideas
Susan, I've thought some more about including what you've said, about the House objecting to the presentation of the Women's Service paper and prohibiting its publication, in my list of possible reasons for thinking that there are limits to the kinds of ideas we can promote. I'd like everything in that list to be something that people can find somewhere on the Internet. The Women's Service paper is posted at http://www.h-net.org/~bahai/docs/vol3/wmnuhj.htm , and the following appears at the bottom of the page: Editor's Note: This paper was written in Los Angeles in 1988; many of the authors were young academics and intellectuals associated with dialogue Magazine. It was presented at an Association for Baha'i Studies conference in New Zealand the same year and was immediately suppressed by the Baha'i authorities, and its authors were forbidden to circulate it in any way. I could include a link to that, in my list of possible reasons for thinking that there are limits to the kinds of ideas we can promote. Do you know of any place on the Internet where there is a better explanation of what you've said, about the House objecting to the presentation of the Women's Service paper and prohibiting its publication? Jim __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
re: Limits on promoting ideas
Susan, when I said that I'm wondering if I should include what you said about the House prohibiting discussion of women on the House of Justice, in my list of writings that might limit what kinds of ideas we can promote, I was talking about the list that I've posted in this thread. I've said that I don't see anything in the writings that places limits on the kinds of ideas we can promote. I've asked people who do see things in the writings that place limits on the kinds of ideas we can promote, to post them, and I'm compiling them. Whenever I discuss my idea that there are no limits to the kinds of ideas we can promote, I will post the list, so people can judge for themselves. You say that the House objected to the presentation of the Service of Women paper, and prohibited its publication. Is that something that you think people should consider, in deciding whether there are limits to the kinds of ideas we can promote? If so, I want to include it in my list, and I'm trying to decide how to say it. Here is my list so far: Whoso, while reading the Sacred Scriptures, is tempted to choose therefrom whatever may suit him with which to challenge the authority of the Representative of God among men, is, indeed, as one dead. - Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 174 What one cannot properly do is to behave in a way that undermines the unity of the Baha'i community, by challenging the institutional authority that is an integral part of the Faith one professes to have accepted . . . - The Universal House of Justice, 1997 Jul 25, Removal of Baha'i Membership, M. McKenny As you recognize, the authority of the Universal House of Justice is unchallengeable. - The Universal House of Justice, 1997 Jun 03, Interpretational Authority of the House of Justice To none is given the right to put forth his own opinion or express his particular conviction. All must seek guidance and turn unto the Center of the Cause and the House of Justice. And he that turneth unto whatsoever else is indeed in grievous error. - Abdu'l-Baha, The Will and Testament, p. 25 We should try and keep as near the authority [i.e. the scripture] as we can and show that we are faithful to it by quoting the Words of Baha'u'llah in establishing our points. To discard the authority of the revealed Words is heretic and to suppress completely individual interpretation of those Words is also bad. We should try to strike a happy medium between these two extremes. - Principles of Bahai Administration, pp. 24f. The believers should be careful not to deviate, even a hair-breadth, from the Teachings. Their supreme consideration should be to safeguard the purity of the principles, tenets and laws of the Faith - Shoghi Effendi, Dawn of a New Day, p. 61 It is natural that the friends would discuss such matters among themselves, as you and your correspondent have been doing on your Internet discussion group; how otherwise are they to deepen their understanding of the Teachings? But they should recognize that the resolution of differences of opinion on such fundamental questions is not to be found by continued discussion, but in referring to the Universal House of Justice itself, as you have done. Prolonged, unresolved, public discussion of these fundamental questions can do nothing but breed confusion and dissension. - Letter on behalf of the House of Justice dated December 10, 1992 In case of differences, Abdu'l-Baha must be consulted. They must revolve around his good pleasure. After Abdu'l-Baha, whenever the Universal House of Justice is organized it will ward off differences. - Abdul-Baha, Compilation on the Establishment of the Universal House of Justice, The Compilation of Compilations, Vol. I, p. 116 Beware, beware lest anyone create a rift or stir up sedition. Should there be differences of opinion, the Supreme House of Justice would immediately resolve the problems. Whatever will be its decision, by majority vote, shall be the real truth, inasmuch as that House is under the protection, unerring guidance, and care of the one true Lord. - Abdul-Baha, quoted in Messages from the Universal House of Justice 1963-1986, p. 53 Letter of 31 May 1988 from the Universal House of Justice to the NSA of New Zealand, concerning a paper about women on the Universal House of Justice, that was presented at a New Zealand Baha'i Studies conference. As mentioned earlier, the law regarding the membership of the Universal House of Justice is embedded in the Text and has been merely restated by the divinely appointed interpreters. It is therefore neither amenable to change nor subject to speculation about some possible future condition. (The Universal House of Justice, 1988 May 31, Women and UHJ Membership) It is natural that the friends would discuss such matters among themselves, as you and your correspondent have been doing on your Internet discussion group; how otherwise are they to deepen their
RE: Limits on promoting ideas
Susan, I repeat my question: When you say that the House of Justice prohibited the publication of the Service of Women paper, do you mean that it made a formal decision, in accordance with its constitution, to prohibit the publication of the paper? Dear Jim, My understanding is that they contacted out NSA who told Tony Lee that the paper was not to be distributed or published. Are you talking about one of the following? As mentioned earlier, the law regarding the membership of the Universal House of Justice is embedded in the Text and has been merely restated by the divinely appointed interpreters. It is therefore neither amenable to change nor subject to speculation about some possible future condition. (The Universal House of Justice, 1988 May 31, Women and UHJ Membership) I think that statement does that, especially in view of the fact that the Service of Women paper was making precisely those kinds of speculations. But I'm speaking more specifically of the actions that were taken such as sending a Hand of the Cause out to New Zealand to deal with the situation and contacting the USA NSA to make sure this paper was not distrbuted any further. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Limits on promoting ideas
Do you know of any place on the Internet where there is a better explanation of what you've said, about the House objecting to the presentation of the Women's Service paper and prohibiting its publication? Not on the internet. I think Tony received his own letter from the NSA who was writing at the direction of the House. So the letter you are probably looking for is from the House to the NSA. But they don't release such letters. Therefore, if you really want to know whether or the House objected to the presentation and publication of that article you should write and ask them. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Limits on promoting ideas
Dear Jim, I mean that the Baha'i Authorities in this case were acting as per the instuctions they received from the Universal House of Justice. Again, if you have any reason to doubt the veracity of what I'm saying, you should write the House itself and ask if they authorized those actions. The information I provided you was to inform your own thinking on this matter, it was not to provide a counter-point for when you decide to argue your own idea on other lists, therefore nothing is to be served by mentioning me in those arenas. If you want the truth you will ask the House of Justice yourself. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Limits on promoting ideas
Susan, I wrote to the House of Justice this morning. I've included a copy of what I wrote, below Jim Dear friends, Someone wrote in an Internet discussion that the Universal House of Justice objected to the presentation of the paper The Service of Women on the Institutions of the Baha'i Faith at an Association for Baha'i Studies conference in New Zealand in 1988, and prohibited its publication. When I asked what was meant by saying that the House of Justice objected to the presentation of the paper, the response was that the Executive Committee was replaced because of it, that they sent out a Hand of the Cause to deal with the situation, and that Tony Lee received a letter telling him not to distribute that article any further. I was also told that all of this had been confirmed by the Counsellors, the ABMs, those serving on the Executive Committee of the ABS and Tony Lee. Is any of that true? Was the Executive Committee replaced by a decision of the Universal House of Justice, giving as its only reason the presentation of the paper at the conference? Was there a decision of the Universal House of Justice to send out a hand of the Cause to deal with the situation, giving as its only reason the presentation of the paper at the conference? Was there a decision of the Universal House of Justice to prohibit the publication, or distribution, or circulation of the paper? If any such decisions were made by the Universal House of Justice, are the texts of those decisions available on request? If so, can I see them? sincerely, Jim Habegger __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Limits on promoting ideas
Susan, thank you for your responses to my questions. That helps. The information I provided you was to inform your own thinking on this matter. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Limits on promoting ideas
At 15:49 + 5/27/05, Jim Habegger wrote: . . . it appears to be dancing on the edge of a very slippery slope. Do you mean that it would be dancing on the edge of a slippery slope for someone to do that, or that I'm dancing on the edge of a slippery slope by saying that it wouldn't be contrary to the Covenant, or both? It would be dancing on the edge of a slippery slope for someone to try to do that. Don C -- He who believes himself spiritual proves he is not. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
re: Limits on promoting ideas
I'm deeply grateful to everyone who has responded to me in this thread, and in the threads Limits on promoting ideas and UHJ membership and women. Thank you for your friendliness, helpfulness, patience, courtesy, and kindness. This has been very enlightening for me. Jim __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Limits on promoting ideas
Susan, I'm sorry I was impatient with you. Thank you for your patience with me. Jim __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Limits on promoting ideas
. . . it appears to be dancing on the edge of a very slippery slope. Do you mean that it would be dancing on the edge of a slippery slope for someone to do that, or that I'm dancing on the edge of a slippery slope by saying that it wouldn't be contrary to the Covenant, or both? Jim __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
re: Limits on promoting ideas
Updated list of writings that might place limits on the *kinds* of ideas we can promote: Whoso, while reading the Sacred Scriptures, is tempted to choose therefrom whatever may suit him with which to challenge the authority of the Representative of God among men, is, indeed, as one dead. - Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 174 What one cannot properly do is to behave in a way that undermines the unity of the Baha'i community, by challenging the institutional authority that is an integral part of the Faith one professes to have accepted . . . - The Universal House of Justice, 1997 Jul 25, Removal of Baha'i Membership, M. McKenny As you recognize, the authority of the Universal House of Justice is unchallengeable. - The Universal House of Justice, 1997 Jun 03, Interpretational Authority of the House of Justice To none is given the right to put forth his own opinion or express his particular conviction. All must seek guidance and turn unto the Center of the Cause and the House of Justice. And he that turneth unto whatsoever else is indeed in grievous error. - Abdu'l-Baha, The Will and Testament, p. 25 We should try and keep as near the authority [i.e. the scripture] as we can and show that we are faithful to it by quoting the Words of Bahauallah in establishing our points. To discard the authority of the revealed Words is heretic and to suppress completely individual interpretation of those Words is also bad. We should try to strike a happy medium between these two extremes. - Principles of Bahaa Administration, pp. 24f. The believers should be careful not to deviate, even a hair-breadth, from the Teachings. Their supreme consideration should be to safeguard the purity of the principles, tenets and laws of the Faith - Shoghi Effendi, Dawn of a New Day, p. 61 It is natural that the friends would discuss such matters among themselves, as you and your correspondent have been doing on your Internet discussion group; how otherwise are they to deepen their understanding of the Teachings? But they should recognize that the resolution of differences of opinion on such fundamental questions is not to be found by continued discussion, but in referring to the Universal House of Justice itself, as you have done. Prolonged, unresolved, public discussion of these fundamental questions can do nothing but breed confusion and dissension. - Letter on behalf of the House of Justice dated December 10, 1992 In case of differences, Abdu'l-Baha must be consulted. They must revolve around his good pleasure. After Abdu'l-Baha, whenever the Universal House of Justice is organized it will ward off differences. - Abdul-Baha, Compilation on the Establishment of the Universal House of Justice, The Compilation of Compilations, Vol. I, p. 116 Beware, beware lest anyone create a rift or stir up sedition. Should there be differences of opinion, the Supreme House of Justice would immediately resolve the problems. Whatever will be its decision, by majority vote, shall be the real truth, inasmuch as that House is under the protection, unerring guidance, and care of the one true Lord. - Abdul-Baha, quoted in Messages from the Universal House of Justice 1963-1986, p. 53 Letter of 31 May 1988 from the Universal House of Justice to the NSA of New Zealand, concerning a paper about women on the Universal House of Justice, that was presented at a New Zealand Bah Studies conference. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Limits on promoting ideas
At 0:01 + 5/26/05, Jim Habegger wrote: I'm saying that if that's what she thinks, even though you and I agree she's wrong, it would not be contrary to Baha'u'llah's purposes and prescriptions for her to try to find people whose ideas the members of the Universal House of Justice might take more seriously, and present her case to them. Don, you said: And you don't think that would be contrary to the statement I pointed out? Any actions, however, which savour of factionalism, of mobilizing pressure, or of stirring up contention among the Baha'is would be an inadmissible intrusion of the spirit of partisan politics into Baha'i community life. Not the way I'm imagining it. There might be something in the way I'm imagining it, that didn't get through. The way I'm imagining it, the person is not trying to create a faction, or mobilize pressure, or stir up contention among the Baha'is. I do see a possibility that if she does as I'm suggesting, it might have one or more of those effects, whether she means for it to or not. If she sees that possibility, and is not careful to avoid it, then I would say that she's not acting within the spirit of what Baha'u'llah has prescribed. Jim __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Limits on promoting ideas
Jim, The examples I gave, in my first post in this thread, were responses that some other people gave, when I asked the same question in the Baha'i Online Library forum. How does one become a member of the Baha'i Online Library forum? Thanks, Dean Betts -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.322 / Virus Database: 266.11.17 - Release Date: 5/25/05 __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Limits on promoting ideas
http://bahai-library.com/forum3/ __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Limits on promoting ideas
At 16:24 + 5/26/05, Jim Habegger wrote: At 0:01 + 5/26/05, Jim Habegger wrote: I'm saying that if that's what she thinks, even though you and I agree she's wrong, it would not be contrary to Baha'u'llah's purposes and prescriptions for her to try to find people whose ideas the members of the Universal House of Justice might take more seriously, and present her case to them. Don, you said: And you don't think that would be contrary to the statement I pointed out? Any actions, however, which savour of factionalism, of mobilizing pressure, or of stirring up contention among the Baha'is would be an inadmissible intrusion of the spirit of partisan politics into Baha'i- community life. Not the way I'm imagining it. There might be something in the way I'm imagining it, that didn't get through. The way I'm imagining it, the person is not trying to create a faction, or mobilize pressure, or stir up contention among the Baha'is. Perhaps in theory; in practice it appears to be dancing on the edge of a very slippery slope. The only one who is capable of maintaining their balance in such a situation is one who possesses true humility. I don't know about you, but the only time I figure I ever even come close is during the last second before I fall asleep. And you can imagine how much influence I have at that point. Speaking of which, it's time I entered that state. It's been a long day and I'm sore and tired. Don C -- He who believes himself spiritual proves he is not. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Limits on promoting ideas
Jim said: I think we all have a God-given responsibility to promote whatever we see as being in the best interests of all people, and I don't think an appearance of contradicting the Universal House of Justice relieves anyone of that responsibility. Susan said: Are we talking about 'an appearance' or *knowingly* contradicting the House? To answer your question in those terms, I would first need to verify that I understand what you mean by them. It might save a lot of work for both of us if I try responding in different terms, and see if it answers your question. From the message of 18 May 1995, posted above, written on behalf of the Universal House of Justice: Individual believers are entirely free to make their own recommendations for developments which they feel would be desirable . . . they are free to discuss these matters informally among themselves. Those two statements are sufficient for my purposes in this thread. What I'm saying is: 1. Not only are we free to make our own recommendations, and to discuss among ourselves the recommendations we would like to make, we have a *responsibility* to do so. 2. That applies just as much to recommendations that we see as contrary to what the Universal House of Justice has said, as to any other recommendations for developments we feel would be desirable. For example, in my view, anyone who thinks it would be desirable to include women on the Universal House of Justice, even if she sees that as contrary to what the House of Justice has said, has a responsibility to discuss that with other Baha'is, if she thinks it might help her in considering how to present her case to the Universal House of Justice, or in finding someone who might be better able to do so. Jim __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Limits on promoting ideas
Susan said: When you raised this issue on TRB you listed among the actions which you thought acceptable, taking a complaint regarding the exclusion of women from the Universal House of Justice to the United Nations. Perhaps Brent or some others might commnent as to whether such action would be contrary to the Teachings. They are welcome to do so, but that would have nothing to do with my purpose in this thread. I'm not looking for writings that limit the *manner* in which we can promote our ideas. I'm looking for writings that limit the *kinds* of ideas we can promote. Then again, maybe you're posing the question of whether it is contrary to the Covenant to advocate bringing the question of women on the Universal House of Justice to the United Nations. In that case I need to correct your statement. I abandoned the idea of bringing the question to the United Nations. What I've suggested as a possibility, for Baha'is who think it's wrong to exclude women from the Universal House of Justice, is to bring the question to an international institution for resolution of religious conflicts, if one is ever established that the Baha'i Community supports in the same way we support the UN. As far as I know, such a body has not been established. Possibly there never will be such a body. I'm saying that *if* that ever happened, it would not be contrary to the Covenant for a Baha'i to bring the question of women on the Universal House of Justice to that body, if she first informed the Universal House of Justice of her intentions, and was not instructed by it not to do so. I don't think the Universal House of Justice would prevent anyone from doing that, or take any action against anyone for doing so. Jim __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Limits on promoting ideas
For example, in my view, anyone who thinks it would be desirable to include women on the Universal House of Justice, even if she sees that as contrary to what the House of Justice has said, has a responsibility to discuss that with other Baha'is, if she thinks it might help her in considering how to present her case to the Universal House of Justice, or in finding someone who might be better able to do so. Dear Jim, I guess I don't see doing that as constituting 'promoting' at all. It would be 'promotoing' only if the purpose of such discussions was to persuade others get behind efforts to get women on the House of Justice. And then I think it falls under the category of the kind of behavior the Universal House of Justice was referring to in it's letter to Michael's wife. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Limits on promoting ideas
Susan, I think I understand. I had an idea that you were reading promote that way, and I'm glad to have confirmation of that. It might help if I give more concrete examples of what I think may or may not be in accordance with Baha'u'llah's prescriptions, in discussing our views. The first thing I would urge anyone to do, who wants to discuss recommendations with other Baha'is that she sees are unpopular in the Baha'i community, regardless of what the House of Justice has said, is to study and practice Abdu'l-Baha's advice on teaching with wisdom, with her recommendation as the message, and Baha'is opposed to it as the negligent ones. If every one of the friends (believers) were to establish relations of friendship and right dealings with one of the negligent souls, associate and live with him with perfect kindliness, and meanwhile through good conduct and moral behavior lead him to divine instruction, to heavenly advice and teachings, surely he would gradually arouse that negligent person and would change his ignorance into knowledge. Souls are liable to estrangement. Such methods should be adopted that the estrangement should be first removed, then the Word will have effect. If one of the believers be kind to one of the negligent ones and with perfect love should gradually make him understand the reality of the Cause of God in such a way that the latter should know in what manner the Religion of God hath been founded and what its object is, doubtless he will become changed; excepting abnormal souls who are reduced to the state of ashes and whose hearts are like stones, yea, even harder. If by this method every one of the friends of God were to try to lead one soul to the right path, the number of the believers would be doubled every year. But this should be carried out with perfect wisdom and in such a manner that no harm would ever result therefrom. In the same way those who deliver the Message should travel to all parts of the country. And if delivering the Message should be the cause of disturbance, let them then be engaged in encouraging and educating the friends, in order that those souls receive spiritual attraction and rejoice, seek delight and ecstasy, acquire new life and through the fragrances of sanctity gain vivacity and freshness. Tablets of Abdu'l-Baha v2, p. 390 __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Limits on promoting ideas
The first thing I would urge anyone to do, who wants to discuss recommendations with other Baha'is that she sees are unpopular in the Baha'i community, regardless of what the House of Justice has said, is to study and practice Abdu'l-Baha's advice on teaching with wisdom, with her recommendation as the message, and Baha'is opposed to it as the negligent ones. Dear Jim, I feel like we are shifting ground here. Earlier you were talking about discussing this with other friends in order to clarify your own thinking, gets some feedback and figure out how best to approach the institutions. But here you are talking about 'teaching' these ideas which does strike me as a form of promotion, no matter how well it is done. The term for teaching in Arabic, btw, is *tabligh* which literally means to propagate. So teaching is promoting. What you suggested in your earlier post struck me as simply consulting which is another thing all together. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Limits on promoting ideas
Again, using the inclusion of women on the Universal House of Justice as an example, I think the following would *not* be contrary to Baha'u'llah's purposes and prescriptions: - Discussing it with other Baha'is, online or offline, to get ideas about how to make a better case for it. - Discussing it with other Baha'is, looking for someone who might be better placed to bring the case to the attention of the Universal House of Justice. - Educating other Baha'is about the issues raised in the paper on women's service, with the hope that eventually someone will learn about them who can make a better case for it, or who will be better placed to bring it to the attention of the Universal House of Justice. - Writing to the Universal House of Justice about bringing the question to an international institution for the resolution of religious conflicts, if there were such a thing, and doing so if the House of Justice does not instruct otherwise. I think the following *would* be contrary to Baha'u'llah's purposes and prescriptions: - Trying to build up a coalition of Baha'is, with the purpose of trying to pressure the Universal House of Justice to change the policy. - Publicizing the exclusion of women from the Universal House of Justice, with the purpose of trying to shame it into changing the policy. Jim __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Limits on promoting ideas
But here you are talking about 'teaching' these ideas which does strike me as a form of promotion, no matter how well it is done. Exactly. That's why I've been using the word promote, when I raise this question. Jim __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Limits on promoting ideas
More examples: - Imagine someone who disagrees with the reasoning of the Universal House of Justice about excluding women from its membership, and thinks that the real reason is simply sexism, and that the members haven't really given the idea a fair chance. Imagine that one way she sees for that to change is for the case to be presented by people whose ideas the members of the Universal House of Justice might take more seriously. I don't think it would be contrary to Baha'u'llah's purposes and prescriptions for her to try to find such people, and present her case to them. - Imagine the same person again. I don't think it would be contrary to Baha'u'llah's purposes for her to try to educate as many people as possible about the issues raised in the paper on women's service, to increase the possibility of future members of the Universal House of Justice being in favor of changing the policy. Jim __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Limits on promoting ideas
- Imagine someone who disagrees with the reasoning of the Universal House of Justice about excluding women from its membership, and thinks that the real reason is simply sexism, and that the members haven't really given the idea a fair chance. Imagine that one way she sees for that to change is for the case to be presented by people whose ideas the members of the Universal House of Justice might take more seriously. Dear Jim, I can see some problems with the above. While it might be argued that infallibility (ma'sum) does not exclude the possibility that the Universal House of Justice has to be kept properly informed and if they are given misinformation a faulty decision might result the above scenario presupposes that there is a moral failing involved on the part of the Universal House of Justice, something which negates virtually any conception of infallibility I can think of. How would this person justify his presuppositions in light of the following passage from Abdu'l-Baha? Let it not be imagined that the House of Justice will take any decision according to its own concepts and opinions. God forbid! The Supreme House of Justice will take decisions and establish laws through the inspiration and confirmation of the Holy Spirit, because it is in the safekeeping and under the shelter and protection of the Ancient Beauty, and obedience to its decisions is a bounden and essential duty and an absolute obligation, and there is no escape for anyone. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Limits on promoting ideas
Susan, when I said to imagine someone who disagrees with the reasoning of the Universal House of Justice about excluding women from its membership, and thinks that the real reason is simply sexism, and that the members haven't really given the idea a fair chance, I didn't mean that I thought it would be possible for that to happen, or that I could see any way to reconcile that with the writings. I just meant to imagine someone who thinks that way. If it helps any, let's suppose, for purposes of discussion, that she would be wrong to think that. I'm saying that if that's what she thinks, even though you and I agree she's wrong, it would not be contrary to Baha'u'llah's purposes and prescriptions for her to try to find people whose ideas the members of the Universal House of Justice might take more seriously, and present her case to them. Jim __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Limits on promoting ideas
-Original Message- From: Jim Habegger Vaughn, I see two ways of reading that. Rather, I think, the Master is forbidding the promotion of interpretations/opinions/ideas which are understood by the person himself to be contrary to guidance from the Guardian or the House of Justice, because, as I see it, anyone who does that has turned elsewhere for his light. Rather, I think, the Master is forbidding the promotion of interpretations/opinions/ideas which are understood by the person himself to be contrary to guidance from the Guardian or the House of Justice, *if* a person is doing that because he has turned elsewhere for his light. Is one of those what you meant? Dear Jim, Sorry for not replying earlier. For some reason, mail to me from bahai-st is getting delayed by up to several days. Today (May 23) I finally received postings sent out between May 20-22. (Thinking that my May 20 post had not reached the list, I rewrote it and sent it again on May 21--my apologies to all.) Thanks very much for asking. What I intended was precisely your second formulation, ... *if* a person is doing that because he has turned elsewhere for his light. If the person has turned elsewhere for their light and has decided that the House is in evident error, then whatever the House may say or do will have no traction to affect the person's thinking, so it is something along the line of clarifying the situation, if the House were to dis-enroll the person from membership in the Baha'i community. I see I also should clarify that by contrary I did not mean merely different, but something along the lines of being at cross purposes. That is why I related it later to campaigning against the policies or positions of the House of Justice. I think the particular type of infallibility conferred on the House of Justice, for the most part, has little to do with the secondary details of what precisely is thought, understood, written or decided by the House. I think it's infallibility has more to do with the ultimate purpose (intention) of the House being protected from error. The Will and Testament says, That which this body, whether unanimously or by a majority doth carry, that is verily the Truth and the Purpose of God Himself. I think the Bab and Baha'u'llah, for the most part, do not intervene in every minor matter and usually only intervene if needed to move the House into general conformity with Their will, and also whenever needed to protect the Cause from whatever would be fatal to Their ultimate purpose. --- Vaughn __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Limits on promoting ideas
Vaughn, that makes very good sense to me. I've never thought of it quite that way before. Thank you! Jim __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Limits on promoting ideas
I think we all have a God-given responsibility to promote whatever we see as being in the best interests of all people, and I don't think an appearance of contradicting the Universal House of Justice relieves anyone of that responsibility. Dear Jim, Are we talking about 'an appearance' or *knowingly* contradicting the House? warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Limits on promoting ideas
I believe that the admonitions in the Master's Will to not express our own opinions or convictions refers to the same specific matter views and opinions that attempt to define the scope of when we have to turn to, or obey, His Successors the Guardian or the House of Justice. Dear Brent, I don't get the impression that this has anything to do with defining the scope of the authority of the House or the Guardian (though the Guardian deals with that question elsewhere.) I think it is speaking of the promotion of any legal opinion (ra'i) which runs contrary to either the Guardian and the House of Justice with the *intention* of rebellion against their decision. In practice we might be saying the same thing, but I think my understanding is much closer to Vaughn's. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Limits on promoting ideas
In a message dated 5/19/2005 5:36:02 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I see limits in the writings on the *manner* in which we can promote our ideas, but I do not see any boundaries on the *kinds* of ideas we can promote. In fact, I think we all have a responsibility to promote whatever we see as in the best interests of all people, and I don't think that an appearance of contradicting the Universal House of Justice relieves anyone of that responsibility. Dear Jim, Since you quote from the letter written in regards to Michael McKenny's removal from the rolls, what do you think was unacceptable about the *manner* in which he was expressing his views? warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Limits on promoting ideas
Since you quote from the letter written in regards to Michael McKenny's removal from the rolls, what do you think was unacceptable about the *manner* in which he was expressing his views? He continued a series of open Internet postings in which he challenged the authority of Bah institutions in language alternating between conventional professions of respect and contemptuous reflections on the integrity and actions of those institutions, after being advised that such deliberate contention is entirely unacceptable in one who claims to believe in Bah'll Jim __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Limits on promoting ideas
-Original Message- From: Jim Habegger Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2005 3:49 AM Subject: Limits on promoting ideas ... I see limits in the writings on the *manner* in which we can promote our ideas, but I do not see any boundaries on the *kinds* of ideas we can promote. In fact, I think we all have a responsibility to promote whatever we see as in the best interests of all people, and I don't think that an appearance of contradicting the Universal House of Justice relieves anyone of that responsibility... Dear Jim, Good to hear from you again. You always have a gentle and constructive spirit in your communications. To state categorically that there are not any limits on the kind of ideas which may be *promoted* within the Baha'i community would, in my view, be unwarranted. I think there *are* limits, both on the behavior (the manner) and on the kinds of ideas which may be promoted. Firstly, there is no such thing as a thought crime, but ideas must not be expressed impolitely: In the religion of God there is freedom of thought, for no One can rule over the [individual's] conscience save God. But [freedom of thought] exists only to the extent that it is not expressed in terms that depart from politeness. (From a talk by `Abdu'l-Baha, `Abdu'l-Hamíd Ishráq-Khávarí, ed., Má'idih-yi Asmání, 9 vols, Tehran, Bahá'í Publishing Trust, 1973, 5:17-18) Secondly, I think we need to draw distinctions between politely expressing personal interpretations/opinions/ideas which I think is categorically allowed, as opposed to promoting personal interpretations/opinions/ideas, which in certain cases cannot be endlessly allowed to undermine respect for the Center of the Cause to which all must turn. In particular, let's consider the Master's emphatic statement which you quoted, To none is given the right to put forth his own opinion or express his particular conviction. All must seek guidance and turn unto the Center of the Cause and the House of Justice. And he that turneth unto whatsoever else is indeed in grievous error. (The Will and Testament, p. 25) Of course, the Master is not forbidding the _expression_ of all personal interpretations/opinions/ideas. Rather, I think, the Master is forbidding the promotion of interpretations/opinions/ideas which are understood by the person himself to be contrary to guidance from the Guardian or the House of Justice, because the person has turned elsewhere for his light. I think one cannot long continue to be recognized by the Baha'i Institutions as a member of the Baha'i community if one persists in campaigning against the policies or positions of the House of Justice. In closing, below are statements from Bahaullah and Abdul-Baha regarding the House of Justice, and from the Guardian regarding membership in the Baha'i community and the importance of loyal and steadfast adherence to every clause of our Beloved's sacred Will. --- Vaughn Baha'u'llah's clear and explicit assurance regarding the (majority of) members of the Universal House of Justice is that God will verily inspire them with whatsoever He willeth, and He, verily, is the Provider, the Omniscient. (Tablets of Baha'u'llah, Page: 68) 'Abdu'l-Baha gives this interpretation of the conferred infallibility of the Universal House of Justice, Let it not be imagined that the House of Justice will take any decision according to its own concepts and opinions. God forbid! The Supreme House of Justice will take decisions and establish laws through the inspiration and confirmation of the Holy Spirit, because it is in the safekeeping and under the shelter and protection of the Ancient Beauty, and obedience to its decisions is a bounden and essential duty and an absolute obligation, and there is no escape for anyone. Say, O people: Verily the Supreme House of Justice is under the wings of your Lord, the Compassionate, the All-Merciful, that is, under His protection, His care, and His shelter; for He has commanded the firm believers to obey that blessed, sanctified and all-subduing body, whose sovereignty is divinely ordained and of the Kingdom of Heaven and whose laws are inspired and spiritual. (`Abdu'l-Baha: Establishment of U.H.J., Page: 323) I would only venture to state very briefly and as adequately as present circumstances permit the principal factors that must be taken into consideration before deciding whether a person may be regarded a true believer or not. Full recognition of the station of the Forerunner, the Author, and the True Exemplar of the Bahá'í Cause, as set forth in 'Abdu'l-Bahá's Testament; unreserved acceptance of, and submission to, whatsoever has been revealed by their Pen; loyal and steadfast adherence to every clause of our Beloved's sacred Will; and close association with the spirit as well as the form of the present day Bahá'í administration throughout the world - these I conceive to be the fundamental and primary
RE: Limits on promoting ideas
Thank you, Vaughn. Have you ever seen any decision by the Universal House of Justice, that forbids us to promote the inclusion of Women on the Universal House of Justice, or a Guardian after Shoghi Effendi, or any other view in particular? Have you ever seen any decision by the Universal House of Justice that forbids us to promote any view that we imagine is contrary to its own? Have you ever seen any decision by the Universal House of Justice that requires us, before promoting any view, to first make sure that it is not contrary to anything the Universal House of Justice has ever written, as we understand it? Jim __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Limits on promoting ideas
Rather, I think, the Master is forbidding the promotion of interpretations/opinions/ideas which are understood by the person himself to be contrary to guidance from the Guardian or the House of Justice, because the person has turned elsewhere for his light. Vaughn, I see two ways of reading that. Rather, I think, the Master is forbidding the promotion of interpretations/opinions/ideas which are understood by the person himself to be contrary to guidance from the Guardian or the House of Justice, because, as I see it, anyone who does that has turned elsewhere for his light. Rather, I think, the Master is forbidding the promotion of interpretations/opinions/ideas which are understood by the person himself to be contrary to guidance from the Guardian or the House of Justice, *if* a person is doing that because he has turned elsewhere for his light. Is one of those what you meant? __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
re: Limits on promoting ideas
Other friends on this list have written: In particular, let's consider the Master's emphatic statement which you quoted, To none is given the right to put forth his own opinion or express his particular conviction. All must seek guidance and turn unto the Center of the Cause and the House of Justice. And he that turneth unto whatsoever else is indeed in grievous error. (The Will and Testament, p. 25) Of course, the Master is not forbidding the expression of all personal interpretations/opinions/ideas. Rather, I think, the Master is forbidding the promotion of interpretations/opinions/ideas which are understood by the person himself to be contrary to guidance from the Guardian or the House of Justice, because the person has turned elsewhere for his light. [Quotes end, Brent continued:] I have a somewhat different understanding of this verse, that is, that it has a more limited scope. On the previous page of the Will, the Master refers to the false interpretations of the Writings of Bahaullah made by Mirza Muhammad-`Ali, to challenge the Masters position. The Master was referring back to Mirza Muhammad-`Alis claim, for example, that the Master was indeed the interpreter of The Book i.e. the Aqdas; but he asserted that the rest of the Aghsan shared this faculty with respect to all other aspects of the Faith. By falsely interpreting the verse in which Baha'u'llah appointed the Master as Interpreter of The Book he strove to limit the scope of the Masters position. I believe that the admonitions in the Master's Will to not express our own opinions or convictions refers to the same specific matter views and opinions that attempt to define the scope of when we have to turn to, or obey, His Successors the Guardian or the House of Justice. My point is that my own reading of this verse from the Will about not expressing views and convictions is that it is not saying to not express different opinions on all matters on which the Guardian or the House have spoken; but has particular reference to not making interpretations, expressing opinions or convictions that bear on the authority of these institutions, or attempt to define their scope. Brent __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
re: Limits on promoting ideas
Brent, thank you for that post. I was very glad to see that. Jim __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
re: Limits on promoting ideas
Have you ever seen any decision by the Universal House of Justice, that forbids us to promote the inclusion of Women on the Universal House of Justice, or a Guardian after Shoghi Effendi, or any other view in particular? Id like to address a few points. The first is the meaning of the word promote. At one end of the spectrum promote might be understood as simply raise for discussion or ask questions about. At the other end might be the conduct here described by the House of Justice as bringing pressure: From certain quarters, for a number of decades, there have been repeated attempts to import into the Bah Administration the concept that it is desirable and proper to bring about change in the community by forming a constituency of like-minded believers to bring pressure to bear on the elected Assemblies. Such a concept is very similar to the formation of parties and factions which is an accepted and familiar feature of many representative democracies. It is, however, wholly antithetical to the spirit of Bah Administration, and would distort its nature and undermine that unity which the Covenant is designed to preserve. (House of Justice letter of December 2, 1995) So that kind of promotion would be, I think it is fair to say from the tone of this letter, somewhere between strongly discouraged and condemned by the House of Justice. That may be what you are referring to as the method that the House has said not to follow. You are also asking about the *content* of discussions. On that subject, though not expressly forbidden, I think it is a fair reading of some of the statements of the House, that it does not view the promotion of some ideas as a healthy phenomenon: It is not out of a desire to take issue with the views you have expressed, but rather in an attempt to respond frankly to your concerns, that the House of Justice has asked us to convey its comments on a number of points where its perceptions differ from those you have presented. These relate chiefly to the behaviour of a very small group of Bahs who, rejecting all efforts of the administrative institutions to counsel and appeal to them, have aggressively sought to promote their misconceptions of the Teachings among their fellow believers. These efforts extend back many years, harnessing to their purpose a wide range of Bah activities and associations, most recently Internet lists. (Letter on behalf of the House of Justice dated December 10, 1992) Jim wrote of the House of Justice, for example, I don't see anything in the standards they're promoting, that I didn't see already in the writings of Baha'u'llah. And on this very subject, the House wrote that indeed, its posture on the matter is a direct statement from the Writings of Bahaullah: Regarding membership on the Universal House of Justice being restricted to men, you are correct in your understanding that Bah'llwas explicit about the matter, and consequently it is not within the power of the House of Justice to rule otherwise at this time or at any time in the future. And, . . . the law regarding the membership of the Universal House of Justice is embedded in the Text and has been merely restated by the divinely appointed interpreters. It is therefore neither amenable to change nor subject to speculation about some possible future condition. (Both quotes from The Universal House of Justice, Letter of June 14, 1996) Jim also wrote: I see limits in the writings on the *manner* in which we can promote our ideas, but I do not see any boundaries on the *kinds* of ideas we can promote. I would first point out that the subjects you raised -- women on the House and a later Guardian -- are not merely garden variety Bahai teachings; they go to the heart of the Covenant: Whos leading the Faith? In particular, the issue of a successor Guardian to Shoghi Effendi is one that has been painstakingly addressed a number of times by the House formal letters, under its own signature. So you have asked about the promotion of ideas in areas that are of more than passing interest. As to whether the promotion of ideas at variance with the statements of the House is forbidden, in addition to the quotes you mention in an earlier posting in this thread, I suggest this one for possible inclusion: It is natural that the friends would discuss such matters among themselves, as you and your correspondent have been doing on your Internet discussion group; how otherwise are they to deepen their understanding of the Teachings? But they should recognize that the resolution of differences of opinion on such fundamental questions is not to be found by continued discussion, but in referring to the Universal House of Justice itself, as you have done. Prolonged, unresolved, public discussion of these fundamental questions can do nothing but breed confusion and dissension. (Letter on behalf of the House of
re: Limits on promoting ideas
Brent, thank you. That's very helpful. Well done. All of that is part of the context in which I would want my ideas about this to be understood. I've seen some reputed defenders of the Faith reinforcing the allegations of detractors, that the Universal House of Justice has drawn boundaries around the content of our discussions, and I was afraid it might have a stifling effect on the study of the Faith, detrimental to its progress. What you have said reassures me. Jim __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Limits on promoting ideas
At 12:05 + 5/21/05, Jim Habegger wrote: Have you ever seen any decision by the Universal House of Justice, that forbids us to promote the inclusion of Women on the Universal House of Justice, or a Guardian after Shoghi Effendi, or any other view in particular? Have you ever seen any decision by the Universal House of Justice that forbids us to promote any view that we imagine is contrary to its own? Have you ever seen any decision by the Universal House of Justice that requires us, before promoting any view, to first make sure that it is not contrary to anything the Universal House of Justice has ever written, as we understand it? In Addition to what Brent wrote/cited are the following - Response from Universal House of Justice 18 May 1995 Your message suggests that the House of Justice outline which aspects of current Bahá'í Administration are permanent and which are subject to change. You have made this suggestion in the light of your concern that some of the ideas you have seen expressed for making the administration work better might be inappropriate. The House of Justice judges that for it to make such a categorization would not be fruitful. The believers' own study of the writings, especially those of Shoghi Effendi and including the Constitution of the Universal House of Justice, should enable them to arrive at an ever greater understanding of the essentials of the Administrative Order. The workings of the community, as you will appreciate, are organic in nature and so is its growth. As time passes, the community expands, and conditions change, the House of Justice will make such adjustments and developments as are required. In so doing, the House of Justice takes cognizance of the conditions prevailing in the community and any views presented to it, reserving for itself the right of an unfettered decision in the manner described by Shoghi Effendi in The Dispensation of Bahá'u'lláh. Its first consideration must always be to remain faithful to the revealed purpose of Bahá'u'lláh, as expounded and interpreted by Abdul -Baha and the Guardian. Individual believers are entirely free to make their own recommendations for developments which they feel would be desirable, but the manner in which they do so is important, because this relates to fundamental principles of the functioning of Bahá'í society. On the one hand they may present their recommendations at the Nineteen Day Feast, or directly to their Local or National Spiritual Assembly, or even the to the Universal House of Justice. On the other hand, they are free to discuss these matters informally among themselves. Any actions, however, which savour of factionalism, of mobilizing pressure, or of stirring up contention among the Bahá'ís would be an inadmissible intrusion of the spirit of partisan politics into Bahá'í community life. In general the House of Justice advises the friends to be less concerned with correcting what they conceive to be present imperfections in the administrative system, than with thoroughly understanding the principles which underline it, as clearly expounded by the Guardian, and with perfecting the application of those principles in practice. (http://bahai-library.com/?file=uhj_suggestions) Of particular importance is the sentence, Any actions, however, which savour of factionalism, of mobilizing pressure, or of stirring up contention among the Bahá'ís would be an inadmissible intrusion of the spirit of partisan politics into Bahá'í community life. I would also suggest two other statements by the House of Justice - Individual Rights and Freedom of Expression Some Issues Concerning Community Functioning. In my opinion, there are 3 topics which can not be appropriately advocated - Women on the House of Justice, A second Guardian Homosexual marriage There are very explicit statements from the House on these issues at http://bahai-library.com/. At the same time, as the House of Justice says in the above letter, On the other hand, they are free to discuss these matters informally among themselves. Personally, having watched the ranting and raving that went on during the late 90's, I'm no longer interested in discussing these issues. Don C -- He who believes himself spiritual proves he is not. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New
RE: Limits on promoting ideas
Don, that's perfect! Wonderful! Thank you!!! Jim __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Limits on promoting ideas
Jim, At 05:48 AM 5/19/2005, you wrote: I'm looking for writings that might place limits on the *kinds* of ideas we can promote. Below are the ones that I've found so far. I already know there are limits on the *manner* in which we can promote our ideas. What I'm looking for is limits on the *kinds* of ideas we can promote. I am not aware of any limitations on the sorts of ideas which may be promoted. However, there are limitations on the means by which one may promote those ideas. For instance, the House of Justice does not appear to mind individuals making written suggestions, but they will not accept petitions. In other words, the House is thankfully not asking for Baha'is to conform to some fixed orthodoxy. However, they are establishing an orthopraxy, or behavioral standards, for expressing one's views. Regards, Mark A. Foster Portal: http://markfoster.net No, no ... how tempted soever. To nominalism be faithful forever! -- Aleister Crowley, Magick Without Tears __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Limits on promoting ideas
Thank you, Mark. I am not aware of any limitations on the sorts of ideas which may be promoted. I'm very glad to know that. Neither am I. However, there are limitations on the means by which one may promote those ideas. A agree! In other words, the House is thankfully not asking for Baha'is to conform to some fixed orthodoxy. I'm very glad to see you say so. I agree. However, they are establishing an orthopraxy, or behavioral standards, for expressing one's views. I don't see anything in the standards they're promoting, that I didn't see already in the writings of Baha'u'llah. Jim __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
