[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: le Tocsein de Gautier
Dear Jorge and others, Years ago I've placed the question of "binary and ternary GIGUES" on this list (11th Dec. 2003) and the discussion wasn't much conclusive then, I must say - you can read it in the archive. On 2008-12-29, at 16:22, Jorge Torres wrote: Dear list: A few thoughts concerning the French duple-meter gigue. 1) The two examples of Toxin are not in 4/4 there is no time signature given. In the whole Mouton book there are no time signatures (including copies in Milleran). They are probably both in Binarie mineur or "cut time" or 2/2, Funny names - where from are they? again, see Perrine's distinction between an allemande and a gigue in his "pieces", p. 16-19. This makes a huge difference in the way we would play them. In most cases Perrine changes pairs of eights into a doted pair, which in turn can mean in performance "inegale" playing - doesn't it? 2) In this repertoire, Allemandes and Gigues are, at times, almost indistinguishable, as evidenced by Perrine's distinction between an allemande and a gigue in his "pieces", p. 16-19 "almost indistinguishable" in notation, but not in performance, of course… 3) There is no evidence to assume that these gigues should be played very fast. There is at all no evidence how these gigues _should_ be played. Even an advice from an experienced historical dance specialist is of little use, as these are purely instrumental chamber private social (!) reminiscences of the "dance". 4) I would not force a a ternary subdivision as a uniform rhythm (6/8 or 12/8). The French had a ternary, gigue-like genre: the canarie The French had ternary Courante, Menuet, Sarabande, Canarie…, why not also a Gigue? Each of them is different, also a Gigue. But only a Gigue causes so much problems becouse of the varied way of notating it. Only in one book of Reusner (1676) there are four ways of writing it down: in 4/4, 3/8, 3/4, 3/2. Who can explain the misterious diferences in perfomance? The French were even less explicite in notation, as is generally known. 5) It is very likely that notes inegales were used in these pieces, but to insist on them throughout the piece in order to change the rhythm to something that sounds more like 6/8 or 12/8 seems pedantic to me. That "seems to you", perhaps the other way may "seem to me", still someone can feel it "slighty different"… That's not the way to justify your point here. If you appeare on stage (not youtube) before a non-casual audience you take the responsibility of you interpretative choices. There you have a chance to be an Artist with your intuition. Here we are speculating verbally and are trying to find hard evidence, …but even on the territory of keyboard research (see e.g. a discussion on Froberger: http://sscm-jscm.press.uiuc.edu/v13/no1/schulenberg.html#_edn59 - f.58, and other links on the Society's page) there is no egreement what to do with the 4/4 specimen. Are there some news on the subject? Yours, Jurek ___ All the best, Jorge Torres On Dec 28, 2008, at 12:51 PM, Mathias Rösel wrote: I would imagine it could be binary. Both Tocxin by Denis Gaultier and Toxin by Charles Mouton are gigues in 4/4 metre. I'd go so far as to say that there's a relationship discernible between the pieces of master and student in that both gigues have a very similar opening motif and both share the same rhythmic pattern in each measure of their respective second halves, i. e. with the bass note off-beat on 2nd half of 1st beat. That repeated bass note even being a 4 in both pieces (notwithstanding that it means B with Gaultier, C sharp with Mouton). With what I heard with Froberger gigues transferred to these 4/4 gigues, you would play them extremely inegale, IOW amounts of crotchets as sharpened ternary units. Gaultier seems to indicate that way of playing by stating rhythm more precisely in each one but last measure of both halves of his gigue. Still, would you perform Tocsin "as loud and fast as possible", i. e. raising connotations of alarm? Mouton seems to indicate something of that kind by using means of chromatic escalation at the conclusions of the 1st half. Mathias Tocxin is tocsin in both French and English, an alarm bell which is musically depicted by the repeated bass notes. My former question was concerned with tempo. If it is agreed that alarm bells would usually be chimed as loud and fast as possible in case of emergency, was the gigue which bears that name supposed to be played that way, too? It's a sequel, so to say, of a short discussion that we had in December 2003 (Re: binary and ternary GIGUES). Mathias "Anthony Hind" schrieb: Damian "Sonner le tocsin", meant roughly "to ring a peal of warning bells ", but could also mean the bell used for such a warning. This would have come from earlier "touquesain" from Provencal "tocaseneh". It seems that "tocar" (or toquer
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Thirteen Course Conundrum
Dale, Excuse me, please, but what is 'RPGR' ? On 2009-01-11, at 02:01, Dale Young wrote: Let's go through pictures and writings about who was playing which lute when and see if we can come to any conclusion why. Maybe a musical style favoured one instrument over the other.Maybe they were on contract for a builder who preferred one. From my memory (being what it is) : Baron 1720ish (12c.?) reflex pegbox with rider (RPGR), Weiss BOTH 1720ish, Hoffman 1730ish RPGR, What picture of Hoffman 1730ish? Kaspersky 1730 RPGR, What is 'Kaspersky 1730' Falckenhagen 1740ish theorbo-lute (TL), The one with single strings (!) ? Front piece to Falckenhagen's 1740 concerti, published by Hoffman, with Mercury holding RPGR , On my (very bad) reproduction there is a lute but in the backgroud and the quality of the drawing cannot serve any comparison. Kohaut 1760ish RPGR, You mean Wenzel Joseph Kohaut, presumably in France? Scheidler 1780ish TL, Straube 1780ish TL. Where is that Straube picture??? Anyone, anyone...Help me here... Both Jan Kupecky's pictures -- Count Questenberg and "A man playing a lute" c1711 -- shows 11-ch lute. I have no other ideas… Jurek _ dale To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Falckenhagen Concerti op3
Dear All, I thought the Falckenhagen "Sei Concerti à liuto, traverso oboe ò violino e violoncello, Opera terza", Nürnberg, J.U. Haffner, 1743, survived incomplite, that is only the tablature is extant (by the way, in Warsaw). Untill I've found this: http://www.emecdiscos.com/home%20pages/014_15.htm What's the matter??? J To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Falckenhagen Concerti op3
Dear Jean-François and Andreas, Thanks for the clarification. Unfortunately the titles for both collections are very similar and easy to mess: "Sei Concerti à liuto, traverso oboe ò violino e violoncello…, Opera terza", Nürnberg, J.U. Haffner, 1743 (incomplete) "Sei Concerti a liuto, traverso, oboe ò violino e violoncello…, Opera nuova" (op. 4), Nürnberg, J.U. Haffner (as you say, survived in full set). As I traced, the first one (incomplete) is published in "T 0638 Band 4" and the second (complete one) in "T 0638 Band 3" of the Domning series. I've found the information on the catalogue pages of the MUZIEKHANDEL SAUL B. GROEN online shop, which is very informative but so full of typografical errors, omissions and inconcistences that I never know which line or paragraf belongs to what. http://www.saulbgroen.nl/cat/lutaz5.htm But with this "help" I'm unfortunately unable to understand what concist of the other volumes of the Domning edition, that is for Hagen, Durant, etc.; see for exemple this: http://www.saulbgroen.nl/cat/lutmis5.htm http://www.saulbgroen.nl/cat/lutaz7.htm#H I do have most of the sources on my old microfilms but always a doubt can ocur. In fact it's a pity Joachim Domning has no contents of the volumes he published on his web page, the same with Trekel-Verlag. Regards, J On 2009-02-14, at 10:06, Andreas Schlegel wrote: Dear Jurek It's op. IV who is completely available in the "facsimile" edition (collected works of Falckenhagen) edited by Joachim Domning (Trekel). The op. III is stil incomplete as far I know. Andreas Am 14.02.2009 um 03:46 schrieb Jerzy Zak: Dear All, I thought the Falckenhagen "Sei Concerti à liuto, traverso oboe ò violino e violoncello, Opera terza", Nürnberg, J.U. Haffner, 1743, survived incomplite, that is only the tablature is extant (by the way, in Warsaw). Untill I've found this: http://www.emecdiscos.com/home%20pages/014_15.htm What's the matter??? J To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Andreas Schlegel Eckstr. 6 CH-5737 Menziken +41 (0)62 771 47 07 lute.cor...@sunrise.ch --
[BAROQUE-LUTE] sl weiss - on wiki
Quite interesting... By way of links leading to links etc, I came to the German language version of the SLWeiss entry on wikipedia and see there under "Literatur" that the two most important lexica on SLWeiss are Karl Prusik's Disertation of 1923 and "Stadtlexikon Dresden A_Z" of 1995. Quite funny, isn't it? Of course the other language versions are much shorter with even less "refined" apparatus. In English, for exemple, we read that "In later life, Weiss became a friend of Wilhelm Friedemann Bach..." -- interesting, really. I'd love to know a source for this expression. But an English wiki says also something new to me on CPEBach: "A few months later (armed with a recommendation by Sylvius Leopold Weiss) he obtained an appointment in the service of Frederick II of Prussia...". Here I'm really proud! By chance do you perhaps know where from it comes? ;-))) J To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: sl weiss - on wiki
On 2009-03-16, at 00:43, howard posner wrote: On Mar 15, 2009, at 2:48 PM, Jerzy Zak wrote: Of course the other language versions are much shorter with even less "refined" apparatus. In English, for exemple, we read that "In later life, Weiss became a friend of Wilhelm Friedemann Bach..." -- interesting, really. I'd love to know a source for this expression. I suppose the "source" is the 1739 letter from Johann Elias Bach about WF visiting his father's home from Dresden and bringing Weiss and Kropffgans with him. WFB and SLW must have known each other in Dresden and become close enough that WF was comfortable giving an invitation to the Leipzig Bach home, or SLW was comfortable asking to come. This epizode is widely known. And nothing else! Besides, Weiss was older by 23 years to WFBach (b.1710). I would rather imagine a "friendship" between WFB and Kropffgans (b.1708), but with SLW - ?? There is a painfull luck of documents concerning SLWeiss life, unfortunately, but that does not mean one can write - even in a pseudo-enciclopedic publication as Wikipedia - whatever comes under a pen. Why "In later life" when there is only one dated letter concerning one professional meeting? Why "a friend" when there is no trace of closer relations? I observe a tendency to such a "historical fiction" on Weiss even from distingushed authors (no names here) easly building their asumptions on another presumptions, fluentfly, almost imperceptibly... (like in a good enharmonic modulation ;-)) J Or perhaps WF was a lute groupie. I don't think JS Bach's son would have needed a recommendation from anyone to get the attention of the Bach-loving Frederick the Great. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Telemann enquiry
Dear All, The two Telemann suites comes from one of the Grüssau collection of tablatures (now in Wroclaw, Warsaw and one possibly in Stockholm) and the volume in question is now at the Warsaw University Library. Old shelf no.: Ms. Mf. 2001 a+b Present shelf no.: PL-Wu RM 4135 The first duet -- 1st lute part, p.41: PARTIE / POLONOISE / en / B. / Traduite de C. / A Deux Luths / Pour / Le Premiere / N° 6to. / Faite à 2 violes: et La Basse: Par L'Autheur / Msr Melante 2nd lute part, p.41: PARTIE / POLONOISE / en / B. / Traduite de C. / A Deux Luths / Pour / Le Secondiême / N° 6to. / Faite à 2 viole[s]: / et La Basse: / Par L'Autheur / Msr Melante The second duet -- 1st lute part, p.99: PARTIE / N° 13 / en / G. / Traduite d'A. / A Deux Luths. / Avec cet Accord [accord] / Pour / Le Premiere. / Faite à 2 hautbois; / 1 viole discordée; / 1 taille; et la Basse; / Par l'Autheur / Msr Melante 2nd lute part, p.97: PARTIE / N° 13 / en / G. / Traduite d'A. / A Deux Luths. / Avec cet Accord [accord] / Pour / Le Secondiême. / Faite à 2 hautbois: / 1 viole discordée: / 1 taille: / et La Basse: / Par l'Autheur / Mrs Melante The tablature is a genuine "baroque lute tablature" (not for mandora, etc.). The Library intends to scan the entire collection (Mf. 2001, 2003, 2004,2005, 2006, 2008, 2009, 2010 [already done], 2011) and to place them online. I think it's a question of the next few month, maybe a bit longer. According to: Ruhnke, Martin "Georg Philipp Telemann: Thematisch-Systematisches Verzeichnis seiner Werke" (in three volumes) Kassel 1984/1992/1999, Barenreiter, the Teleman's originals are not known - as fare as I remember. I don't know of anybody who's found them on his own, either. All in all, a very effective, interesting music ...I'd say "light music" but still better then the newly found the new Harrah/Weiss original duet in C. ;-)) Best to all interested, Jurek On 2009-04-06, at 17:51, Martyn Hodgson wrote: Thank you for this. I can't see any attribution to Telemann in this fromino file - how do we know they're by Telleman? Is there an original Telemann MS in, presumably, staff notation from which a contemporary player would have transcribed these partitas into tablature for the Dm lute? I do see that the 11th bass is used (ie goes down to low C if a Dm tuning) which might exclude the possibility of a madora if the transcription/arrangement were faithful to the original MH --- On Mon, 6/4/09, Jose Luis wrote: From: Jose Luis Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Telemann enquiry To: "Luca Manassero" Cc: baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Monday, 6 April, 2009, 11:40 AM In Yahoo Fronimo Group, you have a free complete edition. File: Warsaw-2001 Best wishes, Jose Luis 2009/4/6, Luca Manassero <[1]l...@manassero.net>: Dear Ian, this enquiry sounds extremely interesting. Many years ago Narciso Yepes and Godelieve Monden transcribed for their 10 strings guitars four Partitas by Telemann, coming (as far as I can remember) from a manuscript held in Warsaw. No lute recording of those Partitas being available (at least to my knowledge), the music would be more than interesting. At least one of those used to be available from Schott, but in Yepes guitar transcription. Are these the Partitas you mean? Kindest regards, Luca Manassero [2]lute...@aol.com on 26-03-2009 16:33 wrote: Dear Chris, A belated 'thankyou' for your message below, and kind remarks -- which are much appreciated! I'm writing because we've [we being Severinus] just had an enquiry about Telemann's two works (TWV39: 1 and 2) for two lutes, two partitas in Bb and G minor. Do you know of any edition(s)? Let's hope we can do something with Mulliner ere the year's out. Best wishes, as always, Ian To get on or off this list see list information at [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=l...@manassero.net 2. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute...@aol.com 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Telemann enquiry
Dear All, Many years ago I've heared (from a "third hand") that Arthur Ness found a trace (or an actual source!) of a Lute Concerto by Telemann. How's about that, Arthur, if I may ask? Regards, Jurek www.jerzyzak.eu/EN To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Telemann enquiry
I played them with Paul Beier at the Ist Weiss Festival in Wroclaw (Breslau) in 2001 and later with other people in a less formal situations and I must say, the parts have - specially the second lute part - some less succesfull or idiomatic bits, but I wouldn't go so far as to say "poorly intabulated". Of course every intabulation or arrangemet best fits the intabulator or arranger. I'd love to see the original, but even withou it, one can always make slight corrections which better comes under one's fingers, the more that the music is not very complicated in structure. It has interesting interplay between high and low voices, echo efects, but demands agility in ornamentation. Good as a duet, quite different to the French contreparie style, … J On 2009-04-06, at 23:09, Mathias Rösel wrote: Stephen Stubbs and Paul O'Dette performed some of these duets at Boston Early Music Fest. There are some indications of other instruments in the tablatures, which might suggest that they were intabulated from a score. I seem to remember that Stephen said he had to rewrite some parts as they were poorly intabulated. Mathias "Jerzy Zak" schrieb: Dear All, Many years ago I've heared (from a "third hand") that Arthur Ness found a trace (or an actual source!) of a Lute Concerto by Telemann. How's about that, Arthur, if I may ask? Regards, Jurek www.jerzyzak.eu/EN To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Purcell and lute
Dear All, Seemingly a simple question -- what would you play on the lute/theorbo/ guitar (or like to hear) in a program of Purcell songs, if they are accompanied by such an instrument? Mace excluded, as he is another story. After some desperate searches I become convinced there is no English music for "lute" from the second half of the XVIIth C., except for a mass importation of the fashionable French well known names -- am I right? or have overlooked something? Thanks in advance for your expert help and advice, Jurek To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Dresden 13-string guitar
Will you risk to see it? Do you remember of the "Falckenhagen" lute?: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ir9Ur-K06TI&feature=related Jurek --- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Grodkow/Grottkau Weiss 2010
Dear All, I'd like to let you know about the next SL Weiss Festival in Grodkow (formerly Grottkau), Poland, 8-10th of April 2010. This is already the IInd festival, still only three days, four concerts, but we hope it'll develope in the future. Here is a link to the bill or poster: http://www.jerzyzak.eu/WEISS-2010_red.pdf It is in Polish, as it's for the local community in the first place, but I hope in the future it might appear attractiv to a wider circles as well. But we already do have distinguished guests from abroad, first of all Joachim Held from Germany, who will paly a solo recital on the evening of th 9th of April with music by Reusner and Weiss. Paradoxically to us today, Weiss was living at the time when all were listening and playing only modern music (to say in short). In order to get that feeling, …or may be mixed feelings, or uneasy feelings, who knows -- we will have modern music too ;-) In December 2009 Marek Pasieczny ( http://pasieczny.com/category/compositions/ ) composed a new full scale suite for baroque lute and I'll have a pleasure to perform it for the first time during the first festival day, in a programme along with the "Divoti Affetti" for soprano, alto and continuo by GA Ristori (1692-1753), a Warsaw composer during the Polish-Saxon Union under both Augusts. We will also have other 'Silesiana', this year mainly in the music by C Ditters von Dittersdorf, a contemporary of Haydn, as well as tiny bit of early romantic music by J Elsner (1769-1854), also born in Grottkau(!) and later a teacher of F Chopin. All concerts will be announced by Ania Wiktoria Swoboda, still a student of mine, and recently especially well versed in all things E Reusners, by the way another Silesian. I hope you'll find this information usefull, Kind regards, Jurek (Jerzy Zak) -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Reusner A minor
Dear Roland, What modern edition of Reusner do you have in mind? Jurek - On 2010-04-30, at 15:26, Roland Hayes wrote: > As there are therobo piece(s) attributed to Reussner in Goess theorbo book, I > play these pieces, when I can, with theorbo on the bass, which is figured in > the modern editions. The suites do correspond to actual suites in the 1667 > Delitiae Testudinis; suites in a, F and C and g I believe. I would love to > get more than the four suites in the modern edition. r > > -Original Message- > From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf > Of Markus Lutz > Sent: Friday, April 30, 2010 6:47 AM > To: Daniel Shoskes > Cc: BAROQUE-LUTE > Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Reusner A minor > > Am 24.04.2010 20:54, schrieb Daniel Shoskes: >> Dear Reusner experts: it seems the suites I'm most attracted to are from the >> Ms additions that I don't actually own. I am playing through the fronimo >> version (Towne) of his A minor suite, marked as Neue Lautenfruchte 1676 Ms >> addition. In the title it also says "cum spinet, violino, cont: viol di go, >> et 2: testudo". It certainly plays well as a solo suite and I know of 2 >> recordings as a solo (Schaeffer and Kirchoff). Is this really just a single >> part from a larger work and does the music for the other instruments exist? >> >> Thanks >> >> Danny >> >> >> >> To get on or off this list see list information at >> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > Sorry for not answering earlier, dear Daniel, as far as I know, there are no > other instrument parts ... > But we have 2 big volumes of ensemble music (unfortunately without lute) by > Reusner. Some of these pieces are said to be arrangements of lute pieces, but > I haven't been able to find concordances so far. > > Best regards > > > -- > > Markus Lutz > Schulstraße 11 > > 88422 Bad Buchau > > Tel 0 75 82 / 92 62 89 > Fax 0 75 82 / 92 62 90 > Mail mar...@gmlutz.de > > >
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Blohm
Dear Ziv, Per Kjetil Farstad is right -- indeed, I've gathered the few available information on him plus research on the Polish-Saxon court in Warsaw made some years ago by Alina Zorawska-Witkowska. It is nothing special, similarily to his four known to me compositions -- rather scratchy music. I'll traslate it into English and send you. Best regards, Jurek - On 2010-08-14, at 19:43, Per Kjetil Farstad wrote: > Hello > > I think Jerzy Zak has written something on one Johann BLUME /Bluhme, Blüme, > Bluhm, Blohm - in an article called > "Lute and music for lute in the 18th-century Warsaw" > > The text was presented at the seminar "400 years of music at the Royal Castle > in Warsaw / Jubilee of the twentieth anniversary of the concerts of the > castle", published in the Chronicle of Castle Hill, No 2/46/2003, Warsaw > 2004, p. 147-161. Someone translated this text to English, but I can't > remember who. > > Best regards from > Per Kjetil Farstad > > Den 14. aug. 2010 kl. 18.27 skrev ziv braha: > >> Hello friends, >> Does anyone has any bibliographical information on our famous Signr. >> Blohm? >> I would appreciate any help. >> Greetings, >> Ziv Braha >> -- >> >> >> To get on or off this list see list information at >> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >> >> > > > --
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Blohm
ch on the Polish-Saxon court in Warsaw made > > some years ago by Alina Zorawska-Witkowska. It is nothing special, > > similarily to his four known to me compositions -- rather scratchy music. > > I'll traslate it into English and send you. > > > > Best regards, > > Jurek > > - > > > > On 2010-08-14, at 19:43, Per Kjetil Farstad wrote: > > > > > Hello > > > > > > I think Jerzy Zak has written something on one Johann BLUME /Bluhme, > > > Blüme, Bluhm, Blohm - in an article called > > > "Lute and music for lute in the 18th-century Warsaw" > > > > > > The text was presented at the seminar "400 years of music at the Royal > > > Castle in Warsaw / Jubilee of the twentieth anniversary of the concerts > > > of the castle", published in the Chronicle of Castle Hill, No 2/46/2003, > > > Warsaw 2004, p. 147-161. Someone translated this text to English, but I > > > can't remember who. > > > > > > Best regards from > > > Per Kjetil Farstad > > > > > > Den 14. aug. 2010 kl. 18.27 skrev ziv braha: > > > > > >> Hello friends, > > >> Does anyone has any bibliographical information on our famous Signr. > > >> Blohm? > > >> I would appreciate any help. > > >> Greetings, > > >> Ziv Braha > > >> -- > > >> > > >> > > >> To get on or off this list see list information at > > >> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > >
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Hinerleithner
Dear Andreas, You were reading in my mind, incredible! I needed the print since ages. It is partly published and described in DDÖ Band 50: Österreichische Lautenmusik zwischen 1650 und 1720, Graz 1918/R1960, Edited by A. Koczirz (along with other composers -- JG Peyer, JG Weichenberger, "Graf Logi", WL von Radolt, JTh Herold, J de Saint Luc, HJF Biber, BG Muffat, C Graf Tallard, DR Berhandtzki). The publicarion has many errors, but going further into this staff is really teaching, for exemple Weiss background, specially the ensemble music with lute he was listening to as a young musician. It is a pity Weiss was not interested in publishing his music, and it is not a question of lack of demand, but -- in my view -- ill fated tendency to keep things in private circulation. Perhaps it worked in individeal cases but generally it was one of the nails to the lute's coffin. But there were others still… Thanks Andreas, J -- On 2010-09-13, at 08:08, Andreas Schlegel wrote: > Hello > > I ordered a scan from Hinterleithner from Munich - and "my" scan is now > online and I'm still waiting on my CD-ROM and the invoice... > > Enjoy! > > http://daten.digitale-sammlungen.de/~db/0005/bsb00052434/images/ > > Andreas > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Hans Neeman Photo
It is probably from: JLSA, Volume XII (1979) Paul Beier, “Right-Hand Position in Renaissance Lute Technique” Mirco Caffagni, “The Modena Tiorba Manuscript” Lyle Nordstrom, “A Lute Duet of John Dowland” John Griffiths, “The Lutes in the Museo Municipal de Musica in Barcelona” --> Kurt Rottmann, “The Resurrection of the Lute in Twentieth-Century Germany” --> Josef Klima, “The D Minor Lute in Central Europe After the Second World War” Reviews, Communications Unfortunately, somehow I lost this very volume and have no idea how to get another copy. I'd be much gratefull if somebody could copy/scan the last two articles for me, certainly not without appreciation of similr nature. J -- On 2010-10-08, at 19:11, sterling price wrote: > Well I found the photo of Hans Neeman and his semi-tone device. I scanned it > so > if anyone wants to see it let me know. Still not sure where I copied it > from... > > Sterling > > > > - Original Message > From: sterling price > To: baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > Sent: Fri, October 8, 2010 8:07:20 AM > Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: New Semi-Tone Device > > Some more info about the semi tone device. > The base is made of maple stained black. The nut is lignum vitae as well a > the > smaller nut which actually raises or 'frets' the course. > Hide glue is used. > Also I am looking for the photo I have of Hans Neeman. I think it was from an > old LSA quarterly or journal. Does anyone know which one? > Sterling > > > > - Original Message > From: sterling price > To: baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > Sent: Fri, October 8, 2010 5:30:25 AM > Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] New Semi-Tone Device > > Dear all-- > > I have just created a new semi-tone device for a Jauck type baroque lute. > This > allows me to change the pitch of bass strings by a half step without tuning. > I > can go from say e-flat minor to A-major in just a few seconds with complete > stability. > >A similar semi-tone device is seen on the 1732 lute by J.H. > Goldt,(formerly > in the V&A) of course I don't know when it was added. Also Hans Neeman and > his > associates used semi-tone devices on all their baroque lutes including bass > rider lutes in the 1930s. (This I know from a photograph of Neeman and his > lutes). >If anyone is interested I can send pics of my new device. > > Sterling > > > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > > >
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: New music to d-minor tuning?
The actual contemporary idiom or "academic idiom" predominates on "best" contemporary music festivals and specialized record labels. But not all interesting composers feel bound to it and some of them aren't eschewing pitch and rhytm notation, nither are post-Minimalists. But it is extremaly hard to write good and well sounding music for lute, or in fact any plucked instrument, without skills of actualy playing it… But I'm optimistic, incuding the d-m genus. Just let's forget about the tablature and we'll get out of the getto. J - On 2010-10-09, at 01:41, Roman Turovsky wrote: > Stefan's music is very good in fact, and thoroughly modern. > I'd add to that a distinction that it is MODERNIST, but NOT CONTEMPORARY > in style and character. His non-lutenistic works are far more contemporary in > character. > > The actual contemporary idiom is either eschewing all notion of discernible > pitch and rhythm > (and thus utterly unsuitable for our instruments), or post-Minimalist (like > that Russian woman > composer in Australia who wrote for theorbo, her name escapes me). > RT > > > > > > - Original Message - From: "sterling price" > To: "wikla" ; > Sent: Friday, October 08, 2010 7:11 PM > Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: New music to d-minor tuning? > > >> There is the fine music of Stefan Lundgren for baroque lute written in a >> modern >> style. >> >> Sterling >> >> >> >> - Original Message >> From: wikla >> To: baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu >> Sent: Fri, October 8, 2010 5:04:51 PM >> Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] New music to d-minor tuning? >> >> Dear d-minor gang, >> >> just for checking: is there any new music to the d-m-baroque tuning? >> >> This time I am not interested the anchronistic movement of composing "new >> baroque music" (really sorry Roman!), neither I am interested in the >> "ethninic" arrangements of (perhaps?) imagined folk songs (again, sorry >> Roman). >> >> So, is that wonderful instrument we adore (=tuning) going to survive >> without new and clever music composed? >> >> I guess not. >> >> Arto >> >> >> >> To get on or off this list see list information at >> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >> >> >> >> >> >> > >
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: New music to d-minor tuning?
Let's not fall into extremities. There are other humans making music as well: http://www.nina.gov.pl/en/node/487 -- 19 minutes Or a short retrospection of Szymanski's music: http://www.nina.gov.pl/szymanski-dvd-1-plytowe The text on the pages is not important. J - On 2010-10-09, at 02:24, Roman Turovsky wrote: > Arto, > Do you REALLY want lute music to sound like > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhXNIrQJR80 this??? > > RT > > > From: "wikla" >> Dear d-minor gang, >> just for checking: is there any new music to the d-m-baroque tuning? This >> time I am not interested the anchronistic movement of composing "new >> baroque music" (really sorry Roman!), neither I am interested in the >> "ethninic" arrangements of (perhaps?) imagined folk songs (again, sorry >> Roman). >> So, is that wonderful instrument we adore (=tuning) going to survive >> without new and clever music composed? I guess not. >> Arto > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: New music to d-minor tuning?
Roman, Creation without possibility of beeing evaluated and criticized is sentenced to dye. How many people new tablature notation in 1750 and could write for lute? -- few; how many professional composers know tab. notation today? -- ?? Wake up from your sweet dreams and mysteries of lute's disability …or by her a new crutch. Your virtuoso minimalist judgements make impression, but can be easily used in oposit direction, so I ignore them. However other instruments are doing quite well despite being immerse in the "fecalia bovina" -- I'd love to live in their stinky situation and have their choice of styles and composers. Chopin-esque harmony is truly matchless and probably timeless, I'd love to get to know Andre Burguete ambitious lute music -- where to find it? Much more can be said, but on this side it's long after time to bad ;-) J On 2010-10-09, at 03:20, Roman Turovsky wrote: > I'm not sure isolation is negative in our case. > I've had many conversations about our instrument with Hans Kockelmans, > who is an avantgarde composer AND a lutenist. He would never mix the two > together, and he said something with which I wholeheartedly agree: > lute in general, and baroque lute in particular simply doesn't tolerate > modernist > music, the reasons for which are mysterious, but very likely stemming from > its acoustical > nature. > As to tabulature: it really saves the lute from a lot of conseptualist > fecalia bovina > that afflicts other instruments. > RT > > > > - Original Message - From: "Jerzy Zak" > To: "Baroque Lute List (E-mail)" > Sent: Friday, October 08, 2010 8:39 PM > Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: New music to d-minor tuning? > > >> The actual contemporary idiom or "academic idiom" predominates on "best" >> contemporary music festivals and specialized record labels. But not all >> interesting composers feel bound to it and some of them aren't eschewing >> pitch and rhytm notation, nither are post-Minimalists. But it is extremaly >> hard to write good and well sounding music for lute, or in fact any plucked >> instrument, without skills of actualy playing it… But I'm optimistic, >> incuding the d-m genus. Just let's forget about the tablature and we'll get >> out of the getto. >> >> J >> - >> >> On 2010-10-09, at 01:41, Roman Turovsky wrote: >> >>> Stefan's music is very good in fact, and thoroughly modern. >>> I'd add to that a distinction that it is MODERNIST, but NOT CONTEMPORARY >>> in style and character. His non-lutenistic works are far more contemporary >>> in character. >>> >>> The actual contemporary idiom is either eschewing all notion of discernible >>> pitch and rhythm >>> (and thus utterly unsuitable for our instruments), or post-Minimalist (like >>> that Russian woman >>> composer in Australia who wrote for theorbo, her name escapes me). >>> RT >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> - Original Message - From: "sterling price" >>> To: "wikla" ; >>> Sent: Friday, October 08, 2010 7:11 PM >>> Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: New music to d-minor tuning? >>> >>> >>>> There is the fine music of Stefan Lundgren for baroque lute written in a >>>> modern >>>> style. >>>> >>>> Sterling >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> - Original Message >>>> From: wikla >>>> To: baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu >>>> Sent: Fri, October 8, 2010 5:04:51 PM >>>> Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] New music to d-minor tuning? >>>> >>>> Dear d-minor gang, >>>> >>>> just for checking: is there any new music to the d-m-baroque tuning? >>>> >>>> This time I am not interested the anchronistic movement of composing "new >>>> baroque music" (really sorry Roman!), neither I am interested in the >>>> "ethninic" arrangements of (perhaps?) imagined folk songs (again, sorry >>>> Roman). >>>> >>>> So, is that wonderful instrument we adore (=tuning) going to survive >>>> without new and clever music composed? >>>> >>>> I guess not. >>>> >>>> Arto >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> To get on or off this list see list information at >>>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >> >> >> > >
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: New music to d-minor tuning?
Unfortunately, modern music needs playing on the highest level, including a well tuned instrument. I'm wonderig if, besides of the superstition of the tablature, the double stringing of the lute isn't another obstacle in activating a lute to do what cpmposer/performer wants to do. Notice that a single strung theorbo survives in company with other instruments, whereas double strung lute has problems. Besides, the d-m tuning has great and still unexplored potency, against Peter Croton's reluctance to it http://www.peter-croton.com/Bach_CD.html and especially Paolo Cherici's view on its usebility http://www.preludiomusic.com/doc/news/allegati/13-bach-visione.pdf J - On 2010-10-09, at 12:57, Bernd Haegemann wrote: > Hi Stephan, dear all, >> http://www.modernlutemusic.com/ >> I don't remember if there is something for d-minor lute on this site, but >> interesting anyway. > There is for example > > http://www.modernlutemusic.com/AMORIC__MICHEL.html > > some pieces for the dm-lute > even with a tablature of "Blancrocher XXI", unfortunately without the related > Hupfauf "Blancmanger XVII" ;) > I have the whole CD! Doesn't rock at first listening :) > > ** > > What about the pieces by Toyohiko Satoh, dear David? > He knows the idiom for sure, and I believe he also has something to say, > musically. > > best regards > Bernd > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: New music to d-minor tuning?
Arto, Better not wait until a miracle will happen. The easiest way, and widely accepted now, to have a new piece of music is to commision it. It's not that expensive as one might think. From time to time I hear of a colegue of mine that is asking a professional composer, or a music festival commisiong a new work for the next edition. I've heared in Germany there is a special fund for this kind of initiatives at the Deutscher Musikrat. Of course it is risky, but that only encourages one to gain better orientation in what's possible. Most of the composers don't present Beethoven's like attitude and are open to one's expectations. However, they like to take care of the future presentation and also do not like to risk a poor performance. So it is in a way a subtle interplay between parties, nevertheless quite real and brings fruits from time to time, of what I was witness not once. If I remember well, Julian Bream in his "Way on the road" recounts he used to pay for a new composition a tipical monthly salary, if -- say -- the process of composition would take a month of time. My friends are paying even less to their friends. It all amounts to profesionalism and good will. I should also say Scandinavia is famous for its traditions for modern music. Perhaps Jacob Lindberg or Rolf Lislevand has some experience. J On 2010-10-09, at 15:17, wikla wrote: > Hi all, > > definitely my intention was not to insult Roman! I think Roman knows that, > but perhaps not all other? I do know only a tiny portion of Roman's huge > output, but still I have seen many beautiful pieces he has composed or > arranged. And they also work well on the instrument. > > My aim was more general: Should there be new music for our old instrument, > what kind of music, ... I was not especially asking for "modern music" in > the sense of 1950's and 1960's trends. Not at all. Neither was I asking for > music that doesn't stylistically differ from the "original" baroque. > > Actually it is quite difficult to say, what I asked, because I really do > not know! If I could, that music wouldn't be new! So I guess best I can > say, I would like composers to try their hands in writing to the baroque > lute. Without me saying what kind of music that should be. Well, of course > I can say: it should be good music... ;-) > > All the best, > > Arto > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Galant definition
The Empfindsamkeit existed as a style of composition (eg. CPEBach), as well as a style of performance (say, the Baron anegdote). It's helpfull to see it as two diferent phenomenons. The first one is quite easily recognizable or even quantifiable (form, harmony, texture), the other one might have been a very subjective case… Now we can only speculate, as on all this HIP. J On 2010-10-23, at 17:07, Christopher Wilke wrote: > Yes, there is definitely something to it and it has always been part of music > history. The ancient Greeks believed that the various modes could incite > anger, lust, insanity, etc. In the renaissance, Bernardino Cirillo called > upon composers to set aside the cantus firmus and write Masses in using > similar methods as the ancient Greeks to incite piety, supplication, praise, > etc. (The modes he knew were not the same as the Greeks', however!) > > I see Empfindsamkeit as a sort of hyper-extension of the baroque doctrine of > the affections. It really uses super-affectation, with moods changing > unexpectedly almost violent contrasts every other moment. Thus, confident, > martial music might suddenly dissolve into a section featuring the most > tender lyricism and then explode into mood of a frenetic nervousness. This > is really what's meant by calling the music "sensitive" - quite the opposite > of an overly precious manner. Unfortunately, few performers go out on a limb > and play this repertoire with correctly exaggerated interpretation nowadays. > For me, though, it represents virtuosity of total control. > > Chris > > > > > Christopher Wilke > Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer > www.christopherwilke.com > > > --- On Sat, 10/23/10, G. Crona wrote: > >> From: G. Crona >> Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Galant definition >> To: baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu >> Date: Saturday, October 23, 2010, 4:34 AM >> PS. At the same time I have to say >> that extreme cases of use of Minor - Mayor can definitely >> trigger feelings of sadnes and joy respectively in me, so >> there has to be something in the Affekt theory... >> >> G. >> - Original Message - From: "Christopher Wilke" >> >> To: ; >> "G. Crona" >> Sent: Saturday, October 23, 2010 3:30 AM >> Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Galant definition >> >> >>> Are you speaking of Affekt? Mattheson goes into >> great detail about the moods associated with each key, but I >> don't believe that this is really more a part of the baroque >> aesthetic and not typical of the gallant style. >>> There is the famous story about how Baron was made to >> look foolish for believing in the then somewhat >> unfashionable (and un-gallant) idea of music's power to >> excite the passions directly. >>> >>> Chris >> >> >> >> To get on or off this list see list information at >> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >> > > > > >
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Weekend..
Here is the description and contents, if you have these publications: (from : ) http://www-bnus.u-strasbg.fr/Smt/a.htm WIEN, Bibliothek der Gesellschaft für Musikfreunde (A-Wgm) Ms. 7763/92 RISM B VII, p. 359-360 SMT III/1, p. 117-120 Thanks to Bernd, J - On 2010-11-06, at 11:25, Bernd Haegemann wrote: > just in case you don't have other plans, why not play some Austrian (and > other) stuff > > > http://dl.free.fr/rrFVoKFCR > > pdf, ca. 35 MB > > (A-Wgm (Ms. 7763/92) ) > > > best wishes > Bernd > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Quadruple time gigues
Martin, Roman's a bit exagerated. On the 11 Dec. 2003 I asked the baroque-liste about the ''binary and ternary GIGUES'', the discussion quickly moved to the more populated 'lute-liste' and you can see how the thread followed from, I think, here: http://www.mail-archive.com/lute@cs.dartmouth.edu/msg02540.html As I remember, we haven't arrived at any substantial practical solution. It is a difficult question becouse it belongs to the practice, not the composition. The tradition passed away with people, with the instrument, with fashion. There is no notation for such things (and wasn't) and a simple differentiation (on paper) between duple and triple metre is only a rough solution. Until someone will discover a vinyl LP (in good condition!) from the time of Dufaut, we can only gues... That's my recent conviction. In the meantime, do not forget about good swing, Django Reinhardt and the like. Have fun. Jurek _ On 2005-09-13, at 15:44, Roman Turovsky wrote: > I suspect Jurek Zak has studied this problem. > RT > >> Many (probably most) French barowue lute gigues are notated in 4/4, >> but it >> has been mostly accepted that you turn them into 12/8 by playing 2 >> quavers >> as crotchet/quaver. There is a usefull table of equivalents in Howard >> Fergusson's book "Keyboard Interpretation". Is anyone aware of more >> recent usefull >> studies? My big problem is what to do when the fisrts 3 beats of a >> bar are notated >> as equall quavers, but the last beat is dotted! >> Best wishes >> Martin To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Dm continuo - Narvey article online
Thanks to Benjamin for such an interesting article. Hopefully it will stimulate discussion here. Does anyone play continuo on baroque lute? If it's not strictly Italian (and sometimes even then) I play continuo on d-m more often then on any other lute. For German music seems the most obvious, for an ''archlute music'' the sound efect is almost the same -- just personal choice (and joy). Jurek ___ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Dm continuo - Narvey article online
Dear Rob and Others, On 2007-11-26, at 09:44, Rob wrote: There would of course be no possibility of playing the Italian solo repertoire on the German instrument, but I personally have no interest in learning that repertoire, although I like listening to it. The Italian solo theorbo repertoire (Kapsperger, Pacinini, Castaldi, even Pittoni) is rather different period then the ''German theorbo'' time -- no conflict in most programs played. And while it is OK to use an Italian instrument for German baroque music (it was definitely used, as Tim Burris has pointed out), it is less plausible using a German instrument on anything other than German music. As far as the ''German theorbo'' is concerned, its popularity was probably restricted temporarily and georaphically to Saxony and to Weiss students and enthusiasts. But the d-m lute was played for almost 150 years -- from Ballard prints to Hagen or Kohaut at least in a large part of Europe. Italy? Why Pierre Gautier was published in Rome 1638? How popular was teaching of a Frenchmen Julien Blovin leaving in Rome somehow in the second half of the XVIIthC., whose hand is present in several d-m lute manuscripts? Who was the scribe of the mysterious tablature with several Weiss pieces and an inscription ''Venetijs. 7. 7br. 1712'' (now F-Pn Rés. Vmc ms. 61)? Try to compare it with the number of know Italian sources in tablature of archlute music. Beside of these few facts which comes to my mind at the moment, the rest of Europe (I know little about Spain) played d-m lute as a solo instrument. It seems unimaginable people were not using it for songs or small chamber music. Benjamin argues that Weiss's presence in Italy indicates that at least one player was using dm tuning, however it is not certain that Weiss had developed his 'sans chanterelle' tuning whilst there. If not, what was Weiss playing when sitting in with Scarlatti's orchestral band? Nowbody will ever know. But I have in front of me the pages from Scarlatti's ''Tolomeo et Alessandro...'' of 1711 with a 'Liuto solo' fragment. A very simple 'Alberti Bass' like part in fast sixteenth notes, accompaning traverso(!) flute and a soprano, which can be played on virtually anything. It seems Scarlatti made a gesture to the famous young man from a northern country, but had no idea of the instrument possibilities and made no efforts to learn them. I know of no other musical proofs of Weiss activities while in Rome (plus some of his solos), of course beside of literary and other evidence... Had the swan-necked so-called theorbo come into existence during Weiss's Italian trip, 1710-14? Seems a bit early to me. I'm sure someone reading this will know when swans flew in to the scene? So, if Weiss still just had his lute, was he playing continuo at all, and if he was, did he use an Italian-tuned instrument? And did the problems he encountered lead to his development of the German Continuo Theorbo when he got back to Germany? Or did he create it when in Rome? Provoking questions for which there are no answers, until some famous musicologist with a fondness towards lute will get financing for a serious research in Roman archives and focused on the musical establishement of the Polish court of Maria Casimira Sobieski. So, there are a lot of questions, and, as I say, I have not yet convinced myself one way or another. But one thought keeps bugging me: Weiss was by far the greatest composer for the baroque lute, and we know that he spent a lot of his time as a continuo player. We also know the tuning he used. Baron states that it is the common tuning of theorboes in Germany. So how many of us are actually doing it? Probably fewer than half a dozen... Almost like playing Dowland on guitars... www.rmguitar.info For playing full time continuo in a professional orchestra one can tune anyhow, even in diminished FIFTH, if that's effective for him/her. Such places/positions were then and are few now, very demanding and needing strong specialization. Doing such job, in my opinion, is a disaster to a 'normal' lute playing. But for me more important is the way most people were accompanning on the lute during XVII/XVIIIth centuries, during the time the d-m tuning was an obvious choice for solos -- I'm thinking of continuo songs and chamber music. With reference to Benjamin Narvey's article, there is more documentation (sources) on playing continuo on a d-m lute, beside of Perrine and Weiss/Baron. Passing over few debatable assumptions, I like his elegant prose and specially the main arguments. All in all, the question of continuo on the d-m lute is a subject of the future, I think. Just imagine if you'd start playing lute from the 11th or the 13th course instrument... Jurek __ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Dm continuo - Narvey article online
Dear Collective, It may indeed be better to devide the subject into two different threads on: -- the continuo on d-m BL, and -- the German continuo theorbo Any speculations on continuo practice from a perspective of 300 years, with such a small amount of written out exemples (if that's possible at all) for the GCT the discussion may go about intervals, diapasons and logical speculations. How far or close they are to the actual 'style' of playing at the Saxon court? More bass, or more chords, and what were the tricks? -- an everlasting questions in relation to any historical lute continuo practice. Are the Heinichen theorbo obligato in one concerto grosso and one movement in a Serenata nel Giardino Chinese of 1719 by him, too, the only written out parts for the instrument? Obligato is not a continuo so still we know very, very little on the actual style of continuo playing on that instrument. Etc., etc... As an entertiment try to write down the guitar part played as one of the greatest hitorical(!) duos -- Grappelli / Reinhardt. Imagine Pisendel / Weiss / ...a bass player http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tqGZ_sUbovk http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LcF0zNkPsOQ&feature=related and others... Jurek ___ On 2007-11-26, at 17:25, Rob wrote: I think if we're to take Baron's advice, we should concentrate our continuo efforts on the instrument and the tuning we know best, whatever that may be.<<< Sure. There have become two different discussions under this one subject topic. One is continuo in regular dm tuning, for which the above comment says it all. The other is the question over the German Continuo Theorbo, with chanterelle displaced. I was looking for comments from players who use this tuning in practice, what are their thoughts, pro and contra the usefulness of the tuning, and whether they use it outside of the German repertoire. Tim Burris and Benjamin are the only two (to my limited knowledge) who regularly use this tuning. I would like to know if it is more widespread. I can imagine that such a large instrument in this tuning would have a magnificent sound. Rob www.rmguitar.info To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Narvey article online/Dm continuo in Italy
On 2007-11-26, at 19:48, Pfarrer Markus Lutz wrote: BTW one more hint: There is a big choral book in Krakau for d-minor lute, that also could be understood as set out basso continuo, if it is true that it uses the basses of the Freylinghausen choral book - it has more than 200 chorales set by Sciurus. I only know some of them in a Rust ms, but not yet compared them to Freylinghausen. Best regards Markus They are very simple arrangements of a chorale melody and bass, either meant to be just played on the lute or played as in the tablature and sing the top part, that is the melody. Not much chordal playing is there, except for a few cadences. A similar procedure as in Kremberg's Arien (with the same uncertainty as to the way of performance). However the Kremberg's arrangements are reacher in texture, so most of them sound quite good as solos, too. The manner of singing along the top part of the lute is similar in the Gellert's Oden (except for one extended 'kantata') and probably in the few other late baroque MSS with Hasse and Graun opera arias with text underlayed. In fact several written aout lute or theorbo accompaniements from the XVIIth and XVIIIthe C. have the top part following the solo part. Look at the Kapsperger or Castaldi song collections with a written out tablature, and now the d-m sources I mentioned above. That style is somehow hard to swollow today, but on the other hand who playes the Italian theorbo today in the way of Cadenze Finali...? The same question of style concernes the d-m lute or German theorbo continuo. However the "Fundamenta der Lauten Musique und zugleich der Composition", you mentioned earlier, is really an excellent source for learning the d-m style of continuo. How popular it was, that's the question. Jurek _ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Narvey article online/Dm continuo in Italy
On 2007-11-26, at 20:06, Roland Hayes wrote: What about the Francesco Conti ms. - songs with instruments and d minor lute in tab (?) Could this be a theorbo in d minor? R. This is a ''French lute'' (Leuti francese, Leuto, other instruments names are also sometime given in plural) what means here a 'regular' 11c d-m lute. The part, in tablature, duplicates and combines exactly the violin part and the bass). Along the two or three other obligato instruments, an unfigured bass part for something and a singer, the lute part strugles to survive with that texture and in that scoring. Either the flutes, oboes, chalumeau, violins are playing definitely one to a part and extremely soft, and the singer is a very gentle one... or I don't understand something. If I remember there is a CD recording of it (I don't have it), but that must be a completely diferent, virtual reality. Jurek __ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Narvey article online/Dm continuo in Italy
Dear Taco, On 2007-11-27, at 13:12, Taco Walstra wrote: On Monday 26 November 2007 21:23, Jerzy Zak rattled on the keyboard: On 2007-11-26, at 20:06, Roland Hayes wrote: What about the Francesco Conti ms. - songs with instruments and d minor lute in tab (?) Could this be a theorbo in d minor? R. ...If I remember there is a CD recording of it (I don't have it), but that must be a completely diferent, virtual reality. Jurek I have the CD at home and it's quite nice music. Typical Vienna style. I agree that the music is a bit difficult to understand sometimes. Never played to music myself with an ensemble, but it's on a list of pieces to try. Is the lute on the CD audible? Interesting is perhaps that the first book contains lute tabulature, while the second does not. Conti was a lutenist, so perhaps these other cantates were performed with lute Dm continuo, although conti was also known as theorbo player (and of course as 'kapellmeister'). There are several Conti manuscripts in Vienna and the music is a bit rediscovered nowadays (for example his operas are regularly performed in Austria). Don't know if there are more examples of explicit lute tabulature in his music. I have read somewhere, if I remember well, that after his death they asked weiss who was working in dresden to come as his replacement. Taco To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: 13 course rider/swan
For a long time I had only the 11-c lute and played everything on it, including anything by Weiss, even Kropfgans, Hagen (Concerto!) and Kohaut. However not without a pain in some places ;-)) As for dilema between 'rider' or 'swan', the one or two notes stopped on the 9th or 10th course, what happens once or twice in a whole Weiss (I don't remember), you cen always play an 8ve higher. I try to remember that the amount of Music in music is the thing which matters. The rest is technology. Jurek _ On 2007-11-30, at 09:52, T. Diehl-Peshkur wrote: Hello Sterling, Sorry it is, as written by the editors and born out of the texts of the Peters Edition. Please check D. A. Smith's as well as Crawford's forwards to the complete edition. D. A. Smith claimed ALL of London was for 11 course; however Crawford has (for good reason) not translated that part of Alton's German forward, because that is incorrect. A second scribe added a number of lower bass notes in a different handwriting to much of the existing 11 course music; this is even visible for us mere mortals in the distinct slant of the added 5's and 6's in the music. Only a number of these pieces have these lower courses written down in the original scribe's handwriting. Compare for instance in Weiss Quelle: London/Tabulatur I 43 verso measure 26, look at the way the =8C4' is written; idem 42 recto measure 41. Then look at the Courante, 43 recto, measures 69, 70, 71, 72 and note the extreme right sided slant- unlike all the other notes on both pages, which are almost straight or slanting leftwards. These are typical examples.. Long live the 11 course lute- which has a massive library of literature for it- even Weiss :-) ! Theo From: sterling price <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 00:03:29 -0800 (PST) To: "T. Diehl-Peshkur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Subject: Re: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: 13 course rider/swan - Original Message -Half of Weiss' output is for 11 course lute (the entire London MS, with only a few exceptions). Now I -know- that is not true. And a good deal of the London MS is for 13 course. Not sure of the exact numbers though. Sterling ___ _ Be a better pen pal. Text or chat with friends inside Yahoo! Mail. See how. http://overview.mail.yahoo.com/ -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: theorbo music sources
Rob, Thanks. I forgot the obvious, obviously. Jurek __ On 2007-12-12, at 21:11, Rob wrote: Jurek, You should ask Lynda Sayce: www.theorbo.com Rob www.rmguitar.info -Original Message- From: Jerzy Zak [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 12 December 2007 19:28 To: Barocklautenliste Lutelist' Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] theorbo music sources Dear List, I know, the Christian MEYER catalogue of sources, both on paper and on the net is a splendid tool for searching through music in tablature, ..but it doesn't mention (the www part) what is for lute and what is for a theorbo. In case of Italian chitarrone music there is Kevin Mason book, too, very usefull. My question, therefore, is -- do you know of any listing, possibly complete, of all other, not Italian, that is French!, German?, English??, etc., theorbo music sources, with their contents, of course? Thanks in advance, Jurek _ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Mouton
Dear List, What are the actual dates of life of Charles Mouton. On a recent (?) CD Franco Pavan writes: "Charles Mouton was born in Paris in January 1617: he was actually baptised on the 21st of the month at Saint-Jacques de la Boucherie…". I cannot find any dates of the CD on the booklet downloaded from the http://www.elucevanlestelle.com/le-mouton-fabuleux/ The same is in the New Grove entry by David Ledbetter: Mouton, Charles (b Paris 1617; d before 1699). And this dates crop up on most internet sources. But the entry seems suprisingly short as for Mr Mouton, don't you think? But on the "LSA Lute Festival 2008 Concerts" page: http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~lsa/seminar/Cleveland2008/ LiddellCConcert.html Catherine Liddell gives: Charles Mouton (ca. 1626- after [!] 1699) French Wikipedia gives (vers 1626-1710), but of course, wikipedia… Other places: (ca. 1626 - ?), (c.1620 - c.1700), (1626-1710) …waist of time looking for more happy variations on the subject. But it would be nice to see a word from an expert, if he is on the Liste now. Regards and thanks in advance, Jurek To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Composers/Tablature/Embellishments (LONG)
Dear Tadeyev and All, Very good remark about nearness of the two tablatures - the keyboard and the lute one, particularly during the XVIIth C. But one has to remember it was a time when people were making music through improvisation in much much greater extand then today. Therefore, I believe, the activity called composing was basically happening on the instrument itself, not necesarily on paper… however sometime the piece landed on paper indeed, in one of its many incarnations: the student version, the teacher version, the pirated or corupted version, and so on. I think the kind of notation has little to do with essence of the music and specially with subleties of its execution. Any notation of historical music (sometimes even modern) is only a shade of its true, leaving appearence. Livre de Musique pour le Lut by Perrine is in fact a very interesting book but seldom mentioned perhaps becouse it is chiefly a handbook for continuo playing on the d-m lute. There is in fact a whole piece transcibed to the 'grand-staff' at the end of the book, but as far as ornamentation is concerned I finde there only the 'separe' written out (and this is a fantastic exemple) plus perhaps one appogiatura expressed in notes, as oppesed to the tablature with a letter and the proper sign. Anyway, some kind of translation of the Perrine book into, say, English would be a very welcome initiative. Best regards, Jurek On 2008-09-08, at 17:10, Tadeyev wrote: Hello all, I am usually receiving the list on my iPhone whilst traveling, and see subjects that I would like to respond to, but never have the chance in the airport. Now back, time to pick up the thread. Recently (1 month or so ago?) there was a thread regarding whether or not composers were 'at home' with tablature, postings on ornaments, and I had a few general thoughts to air. Many lutenists are unaware of the fact that keyboard tablature was very commonplace in Germany from some point in early-mid 15th century up until the last quarter of the 17th century. This despite the fact that regular staff notation had already made its first appearance in 16th century Italy. In actuality the earliest autographs from J.S. Bach's hand that we possess are in keyboard tablature, which is infinitely more complex to deal with than lute tab, which closely follows the lute's layout physically. Interestingly, in another, much later autograph of Bach's of the concerto in A major, (if memory hasn't failed me), there is place where there wasn't enough paper for the staff notation left- and Bach just filled in the last few measures in keyboard tab to save space. This is sometime circa 1730. This is very interesting to recall, (for me anyway), as one can imagine the Bach-Weiss relationship in a new manner with this info. It must have been quite simple for Bach to read any tablature of his friend's easily, and the chances are high that even Weiss might have learned keyboard tab even before staff notation whilst in areas of German speaking culture. On the other hand, Weiss must surely have known staff notation as an international musician under the international influences of court life, especially when performing with other players from Italy and England. In short, I think that lutenists from the beginning of the 18h century onwards were much more 'fluid' in the use of tab or staff notation for reading or composing than we might at first consider. And tab was certainly not solely the domain of lutiensts either. This turns to a connected (tab vs. staff) yet different thread about ornamentation which was posted a little later: Turning to France, there is a remarkable book that many, (even those who love French lute music) don't examine more closely: the Livre de Musique pour le Lut by Perrine which is a goldmine of info for any lutenist. It is ignored mostly because he propagates the use of staff notation for reading lute music- and shoots himself in the foot by doing so! In the end, the tab versions of the pieces he printed are much easier to read. However, like a kind of printed piano roll, he shows us the written out ornaments in detail, which serves as a Rosetta stone for interpreting ornamentation of a number of pieces by famous lute composers. And interestingly, here too, we see as a kind of 'Zeitgeist' a change, a red flag going up, from tablature to staff notation- probably the same as many German based contemporaries of Bach must have made from keyboard (organ) tab to staff between the end of the 17th and beginning of the 18th centuries. My excuses if everyone fell asleep! Theo To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Composers methods
Hi Theo, So we agree the process of composing (in the past) had little to do with notation system - kind of tab or a staff notation. The act of inventing takes place between a head and the hands, most often, and then is only visualized on paper, anyhow. The other thing are notational traditions, often connected with certain instruments. In another words there isn't something like 'composing in tablature' or 'composing in staff notation', but rather 'notating in' one or the other system. With some exceptions, however. I wouldn't risk composing a 5 part double fuge with strict inversions and augmentations using a 6-line tab staff - rather crazy, or a motet with instruments… IF I'd find such a commission today ;-) The question not for this liste but rather for the general lute-liste remains how the Renaissance composers were able to achieve such fluency and sophistication in creating their poliphonic(!) fantasias/ricercars/tientos/atc… relying mostly, I suspect, on their imagination and the lute in hands. That's something unseen in modern 'early music' world. But who needs 'old-new' compositions now? A paradox, or academic discussion, uless it is Pawel Szymanski: http://www.usc.edu/dept/polish_music/composer/szymanski.html You may listen to bits of his 'Une Suite de Pieces de Clavecin' from 'Works for Piano' CD (sorry, nothing for lute as yet): http://merlin.pl/Works-For-Piano_Maciej-Grzybowski/browse/product/ 4,47.html;jsessionid=8284E91DB6F6AE0E6A8430BCA41C85DF.LB3 Best, Jurek __ On 2008-09-09, at 01:45, Tadeyev wrote: Hi Jerzy and all, Good points all around. The only point I would add is that we can often 'discover' whether a composer worked from the instrument or their head fairly easily. As Roman pointed out, there is documentation for it, but there is also just the hands and fingers. As a harpsichordist I know Bach, Scarlatti and Sweelinck best; all three have keyboard pieces clearly composed at the keyboard, and other pieces composed far away from it. Even difficult passages when conceived at the instrument will often remain well within the hand's possibilities (even when it uses strange devices like runs using the thumbs between the left and right hands) and well within 10 fingers. Yet for these composers there are many pieces that you can tell right away were not conceived at the keyboard with unusual jumps and juxtapositions,chord arrangements or peculiar voice leadings and hand acrobatics. This can also be the case concerning intabulations of vocal music, transposed pieces or pieces borrowed from other genres/instruments. I am sure there are similar analogs to lute music as well. In the end, I personally don't care where the composer worked- as long as the music is wonderful! Theodore Diehl To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: BWV 1025
I knew about, now I've heared it - thank you. I'll probably order the CD. Any incarnation of the piece is worth attention. J __ On 2008-10-26, at 10:48, G. Crona wrote: Can't remember anyone having mentioned this Deutsche Harmonia Mundi -99 soundclip: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yISJ10Uq-20 Sound is quite lousy (only mvmt. 5 is in higher resolution though also incomplete). G. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
