Re: Dornachian reactions?
Dear Lloyd, I agree with you that after 20 years of having input from Alex maybe the farmer in question was so used to being spoon fed that they could not think for themselves. My take on the whole situation is that BD is a great tool for creating soil fertility, however the system as proposed by RS. was only a work in progress. Unfortunately he died before he could finish it. The work will never be finished as a complete integrated system. There is always further work to be done, but the further work cannot be called Biodynamic. What we have now is a farming system based on the teachings and thoughts of Rudolf Steiner. What Steiner taught has as many interpretations as there are anthropops. Each person will accept some of the RS ideas, while rejecting others. I find that there are even many people who espouse to following the teachings of Steiner but who dont use the preps on their gardens eve if they have a garden these days. One way to see the potential of BD is to use it in the vege garden along with compost teas and Cosmo fertiliser. It is the additive inputs that make BD work. You could probably say that it is BD that has the potential to make organics work. To me it is just part of the years work to put the horns down and put out the preps. Dear Hugh Thanks for an interesting note - your mexicanfriend is obviously enjoying his success. I think the major problem with the old guard inAustralia was one of communication (lack of it) , that disenchanted farmerthat I quoted said " Alex wont address the problem", it should havebeenup to the farmer himself to recognise the problem in its early stages and todo something positive about it himself, and after twenty or so years as apracticing, certified, Biodynamic producer he should have been equipped to dothat without needing to call on the services of the master. Striving for certification is part of the problem- there are rewards for organic certified produce - but I think only isolatedopportunities for further premiums (above organic) from Demeterand thenonly for restricted quantities and specific situations. Our newer (Biodynamic Agriculture) organisation has taken a more open and educational position and many farmers are learning to do things for themselves.There will be more mistakes made for sure, but learning always involves mistakes. If the traditionalists manage to take over thatorganisation (and its likely, politics being what it is ) then there areenough of us free thinking loonies on the outside to carry things forwardwhatever happens. I believe that homeopathic remedies and what Iterm low level radionics - field broadcasters, potentiser instruments, (andprobably some of the paper based systems), combined with dowsing andbasic soil remineralising are the way of the future for agriculture. Energyfarming! I sure have met some interesting people in thelast few years! Cheers all Lloyd Charles ___ BDNow mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can unsubscribe or change your options at: http://lists.envirolink.org/mailman/listinfo/bdnow ___ BDNow mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can unsubscribe or change your options at: http://lists.envirolink.org/mailman/listinfo/bdnow
Re: Dornachian reactions?/certification
Thanks Graeme, I think Elliot and I are around the same age, but of course both of us are much jnior to Helen and Scott Nearing, John and Helen Philbrick, etc. Hugh ... Otherwise I am in agreement with your other comments on certification. Spot on as we convicts say! -- Graeme Gerrard [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ BDNow mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can unsubscribe or change your options at: http://lists.envirolink.org/mailman/listinfo/bdnow Visit our website at: www.unionag.net ___ BDNow mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can unsubscribe or change your options at: http://lists.envirolink.org/mailman/listinfo/bdnow
Re: Dornachian reactions?
Dear Peter,
It is a shame that Agriculture of tomorrow is not in print now.It would
give the skeptics of Agricultural Homeopathy concrete data, and
photographs which support the use of homeopathy in agriculture.
It is one thing to see the results in a book and another to bring it
into manifestation.
For the last 5 years I have been conducting comparative trials between
radionically prepared preparations, and other substances, and stirred +
radionic preps sprayed out in the same way from a spray tank.
Results to date indicate that physical preps + radionic high potency
preps are the most effective.
Over the last year, with the various things I have trialled, including
changing the polarity of the soil from positive to negative, the brix of
our pastures has increased from 8 to 22 which I would not have believed
was possible.
If anyone doubts the efficacy of radionics combined with BD they need to
see our trial patches.
I hope that you all enjoy Hugh's tour to NZ as his ideas on atmospheric
regeneration is worth listening to. The devil is in how you do it. More
after the tour.
James Hedley
In N.Z. it is not a great deal different to Europe. There are quite a number
using the preparations in various forms and using other certifications. one
should remember that Steiner's instructions were to farm homoeopathicaly.
This instruction was given to the Koliskos who were attending the lectures
for medical practitioners and pharmacists. They were being instructed in the
use of decimal homoeopathy. During the agricultural lectures they were
commended for their work and after the lectures asked to continue with their
research. Steiner did not want the agricultural lectures made public, only
the work of those who brought it to physical manifestation. We should be
going through the process of trial and peer review, just like other
scientific disciplins. This crisis in Europe may be to help some people to
wake up to what Steiner's intentions really were.
Yes sleep is much more comfortable So leagal action may be needed to
cause a little more discomfort
regards,
Peter.
- Original Message -
From: Arjen Huese [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Biodynamic Food and Farming Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, June 20, 2003 8:24 PM
Subject: Re: Dornachian reactions?
A lot of European bdgrowers use the Demeter-symbol and get a higher price
for their products than for ordinary organic products. Part of the
requirements for using the Demeter-symbol is the ('traditional') use of
the
preps, not radionically applied but physically stirring and spraying.
Manfred Klett (the head of the agricultural section in the
Goetheanum-Dornach) suggests '... in the meantime we have to feel free to
act illegally...'
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Re: Dornachian reactions?/certification
Dear List, Of course, writers on this list sometimes disparrage others either on this list or off it. A couple cases in point are: People are using the real preps, (as though homeopathic and radionically prepared preps are not real) Well I meant real in the sense of substantial living matter. Whatever. There is an obvious difference between these, um..manifestations? of the preps. Obviously the EU thinks so - there seems to be no ban on homoeopathic dilutions or Malcolm Rae cards. ... With that said, please let me address certification. We are free to certify or not to. Like I said in another post - there are those who already have established customers who trust their growers - those growers have no benefit from certification. Here in the US some of the better known pioneers of the organic movement--Elliott Coleman and myself for two--have opted out of certification You must be a lot older than I thought Hugh. i thought the pioneers of the organic movement were active world wide in the 1930s,40s and 50s, except for Steiner, who preceded these others by a decade, or more! now that the government has taken it over by force. Why? We don't want to lend our good names to what we perceive as a prostitution of the founding ideals of the movement. I don't think it has so much to do with size. Some very large growers have a reputation for reliable quality--Lundberg rice, Coleman beef, etc. that far transcends the organic label. Arrowhead Mills had it at one time and hasn't entirely lost it after changing hands. ... Otherwise I am in agreement with your other comments on certification. Spot on as we convicts say! -- Graeme Gerrard [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ BDNow mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can unsubscribe or change your options at: http://lists.envirolink.org/mailman/listinfo/bdnow
Re: Dornachian reactions?
There's a guy down the road from me who sells organic vegetables to people. He makes his compost by mixing urea and sawdust together and leaving it for 3 weeks, then puts it on the plants. He told me he doesn't use any pesticides or chemicals - only a bit of roundup at the start, of course. Hello Graeme If this guy is only using a bit of roundup at the start he's a mile in front of his commercial chemical counterparts, and if he really manages to produce his vegetable crops without any in crop pesticides, he is doing a lot of things right! What does his stuff taste like? And most importantly does he tell the truth when he sells his produce? If he does then I'd suggest he's not much of a problem. Organic certification tells the consumer that there is less toxic chemical present in the food but it says nothing (or very little)about the nutritional quality, and until consumers wake up and start to buy on taste rather than appearance nothing much will change. His clients are just as poorly informed - either they don't know or simply don't ask about his practices. What do you do about such situations? I don't know. Certification cant fix this - only quality testing by the end consumer - if your neighbor's produce looks good, tastes great, and is grown without chemicals in crop he is most of the way home and his consumers will figure it out, If it is rubbish and tastes like cardboard and he tells lies then they will probably figure that out too. Cheers Lloyd Charles ___ BDNow mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can unsubscribe or change your options at: http://lists.envirolink.org/mailman/listinfo/bdnow
Glen Re: Dornachian reactions?
Yes. There you go again Glen. But no matter. Seems to me if these groups are so irrelevant, why do they survive - I mean, there must be some people who think they are still doing something useful. (I think I remember the Marinus la Rooij name from that book BD Perspectives? I can't remember the details of his articles but I thought the book was great - focused on good agricultural and animal management practises, not just on the preps.) This is why quality based certification regardless of production method is the way of the future. Absolutely agree with you on this one. But who judges the quality? If you have to go around and try all your certified grower's food - it won't be long before there's a group of disaffected people saying Glen is a !#$*, his preps don't work and he is old school and out of touch. There needs to be objective measures if the system is to be robust and fair - I once thought it would be chromatography, but I was mistaken. You can't look at every apple grown! . People are singling out individuals (just re-read recent posts in this thread, including your own comments below). Graeme Podolinsky is the organisation, just as in NZ there are one or two people who have 'stolen' the association. It is often the way. One or two people dominate to the detriment of all others. The system they institute keeps them there, especially in a association where no one actually meets and AGMs attract less than 1% of the membership. If they can be identified then name them. In NZ we have one Marinus la Rooij being the major stick in the mud here. Funny thing is he has had several fellow council members ask him to resign, (as well as his wife), and he has not yet taken the hint. Seems its his divinely inspired purpose to block any development, and especially my work. Like dear old Hussein looks like he will have to be removed unceremoniously. The only question is how much further will the association die before he or the other members get it. At present it is little more than a cultist club that lives on all sorts of faith and internal legislation of course. Other groups are already forming around them, sidestepping them and of course making them irrelevant. Hughs coming tour for example, the biggest thing to happen in NZBD in 10 years is organised by these groups. What do you do about such situations? I don't know. This is why quality based certification regardless of production method is the way of the future. Here it is the government organic mark that is screwing organics the most. At present they have great regs on paper, but no real inspection, and they are undercutting $ wise 'the peoples mark' BioGro (which is actually only a little bit better),, so it will be broke in a couple of years max, then we are left with only an immoral govt backed joke. Add GE to this and organics is dead. All we have left is real quality parameters, however you can get them. This will have to come from a peoples movement again no doubt. Glen A -- Graeme Gerrard 1480 Sapphire Coast Drive Wallagoot 2550 PO Box 39 Bega 2550 ph 6494 1191/0414 396 754 [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ BDNow mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can unsubscribe or change your options at: http://lists.envirolink.org/mailman/listinfo/bdnow
Re: Lloyd Re: Dornachian reactions?
- Original Message - From: Resonant Info [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biodynamic Food and Farming Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2003 8:07 AM Subject: Lloyd Re: Dornachian reactions? Hi Graeme - just a few comments - I also have stuff to do! Yes, his approach is of course better than commercial growers'. What does his stuff taste like? I wouldn't buy it. My partner and i went down there to have a look and get a few vegies - but the smell of urea, the blue nitrogen puffed leaves Given the above comment of yours I find it difficult to believe that he can produce without in crop chemicals? Either that or he has been extremely luck to date! As to consumers. There are kids in their twenties whose only experience of fresh food is the plastic wrapped chilled and watered commercially grown stuff in the supermarket. They can't smell, taste or even touch half of it before they buy it. They never in their lives picked an apple or dug up a carrot. They don't know what real food really tastes like, looks like or how it is grown. This is not just a mistake, but the result of what may as well have been conditoning/education program that has been going on for years. I really dont know what you do about this, we have been 'consumers' of alternative medicine for twenty years and despite the fact that we dont eat near as much good food as we should, our little family has enjoyed much better health than most, on top of which we have been taught (or learnt) how to look after our selves when things do go off course. We have close family members who we cannot get interested in alternatives, they remain locked in the conventional doctor knows best mindset, it is really frustrating when you see someone you care for being slowly poisoned by a well meaning doctor - long term medication for a simple problem that my naturapath friend could have fixed easily- and I could not do a damn thing about it. Nutritionally we have the grey haired doctor lady yapping on the tv about how there is no proven difference in favour of organic food - very careful to appear not to be biased - (just like the farmers associations when they promote GM) - I get mad every time I see her face - but she is an authority figure - a 'qualified Nutritionist' - and has science to back up those opinions. Now, starting from that point, how can u expect such people to be able to judge good food, ask the right questions of the grower, figure out what is good practise in agriculture? Certification IS a paternalistic, cotton wool approach. But what practical alternative is there for the time being. We need something to get us out of this dead end. I agree! and if certification does nothing else other than guarantee a more or less chemical free source of fruit and vegetables, then its a worthwhile excercise - trouble is its being hi-jacked by the big boys and in another five years or so organic will be shipped all over the world out of season, shrink wrapped, pre packed, ethylene ripened, irradiated, adulterated, --- and how will a consumer know if it started out organic or not? (good article on this in the latest acres USA magazine) That is a problem of education and my hope is that certifiers are contributing to the re-education of the public. If I am wrong about the education thing, then why are people still buying supermarket food? For the same reasons they eat at mcdonalds and drive too fast - most people have yet to figure out that they can eat better, live longer and have more time to do the stuff they dont have time for. Okay, I do agree about organic certification not conveying much - even BD certification here is no guarantee of quality. Go and try some supermarket food - it tastes a LOT better than much of the organically certified food I can buy at twice the price. Happily I have not found this to be the case, we dont have access to a lot of organic produce but what I have had in the last year or two has been better taste than the chemical version most times. Maybe I have become a more discerning buyer (probably so) Finally, growers who are anti certification fall into 3 groups, in my experience: 1). Those that don't need it, they have their regular customers who know them and trust them and they are doing fine 2). Those that think it costs too much/can't afford it/resent the certifiers taking money 3) Those who are excluded by the certifiers. Either because their management just isn't de rigeur. e.g. Live without Roundup? Are u joking? or their practises or skills don't meet the demands of the certifiers. (Who wants to join a club that wouldn't have you?) The first one is fine, but isn't really an argument against certification. The second doesn't recognise the economic realities of running a bureaucracy, and the third is where a lot of the arguments on this list come from, as far as I can tell. Man you dont miss a trick do you! Ok I am a number three. A choice I make
Re: Dornachian reactions? A glimmer of hope
Hi Tony, That is great news, I hope the meeting goes well. warm regards, Peter. Hi Glen Maybe there is a glimmer of change on the horizon. I was contacted yesterday by a NZBD assoc member and was asked 'How can the NZBD assoc help people like me who organise workshops and international speakers to come to NZ. I am having a meeting on Sunday. Cheers Tony Robinson NZ ___ BDNow mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can unsubscribe or change your options at: http://lists.envirolink.org/mailman/listinfo/bdnow ___ BDNow mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can unsubscribe or change your options at: http://lists.envirolink.org/mailman/listinfo/bdnow
Re: Glen Re: Dornachian reactions?
Graeme Yes. There you go again Glen. But no matter. Seems to me if these groups are so irrelevant, why do they survive - Are they /we being all we could be??? This is why quality based certification regardless of production method is the way of the future. Twas thingking about this this morning and it may not be that hard. ie growers supplies a SFW certificate to indicate his soil health other parameters re brix test and the like a chroma tography a mineral and vitamin analysis or the like I am sure others have suggestions for this. Hardly a need for the farm to be inspected. Most enterprises are being inspected by a govt dept for something now so basic management environementally etc will be done there Quality is the key, however you get it. The market is wide open at present. GA ___ BDNow mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can unsubscribe or change your options at: http://lists.envirolink.org/mailman/listinfo/bdnow
Re: Dornachian reactions?/certification
>Hi Glen, >I do agree with much that you say here, but you start with saying no >one is criticising anyone except the organisations but this is not >true. People are singling out individuals (just re-read recent posts >in this thread, including your own comments below). It just makes >the genuine points of criticism seem like sour grapes. > >But the certification issue is a big one. I have just been involved. . . Dear List, Of course, writers on this list sometimes disparrage others either on this list or off it. A couple cases in point are: >> People are using the real preps, (as though homeopathic and radionically prepared preps are not real) and > One or two people >dominate to the detriment of all others. (as though assuming the role of victim was the chief if not the only option in this situation) I myself am far from immune to falling into such traps, and in pointing out the above I too am tarred with the above as everyone will recognize the authors of these statements. I happen to have an extremely critical nature which I have to work hard on keeping in check and often fall short. This is at least humbling if not (usually) humiliating. But Hamish has the best point I've heard voiced on this list in a long time: Yes Biodynamics is growing in Australia. We have a number of Biodynamic associations around the country and the 2 biggest have very different cultures. to me that matters not. what matters is that people are having a go. The second most important is that we share our experiences in the light of the laws of the free spiritual life. when our sharing descends below this level it does no-one any credit, but even then we need to have some modesty and tolerance. Like our Biodynamic practices we don't always get it right first go. With that said, please let me address certification. We are free to certify or not to. Here in the US some of the better known pioneers of the organic movement--Elliott Coleman and myself for two--have opted out of certification now that the government has taken it over by force. Why? We don't want to lend our good names to what we perceive as a prostitution of the founding ideals of the movement. I don't think it has so much to do with size. Some very large growers have a reputation for reliable quality--Lundberg rice, Coleman beef, etc. that far transcends the organic label. Arrowhead Mills had it at one time and hasn't entirely lost it after changing hands. What does organic certification mean to me?, and I routinely buy certified organic when presented with a choice that is otherwise not clear. If you can imagine this, recently the congressman of my home district, Nathan Deal, attached a rider to a key appropriation bill allowing chicken raisers to feed whatever feed was available to their birds and still label them organic under the government standards. This measure passed and took several months to repeal, though it created a rather vocal public outcry. Personally I love such shenanigans because they point up the folly of government certification as a means of assuring the consumer gets quality products. It always has been and will be necessary for buyers to be wary. Certification in my view is no substitute for grower integrity, and buyers might best become acquainted with their growers, whether large or small, and buy from the growers they know have integrity whenever possible. I relish each and every opportunity to tell inquirents that now we are not certified organic. We opted out of that process after many years of pioneering participation because we feel it has cashed in its heritage for a mess of porridge. Is life any worse for me today than when the public hardly knew organic existed? No. Selling quality is still the same. You only get across to those who really tune in to quality and have educated their taste for it and are willing to pay, whatever the cost of it. Sometimes it is cheap, sometimes dear, but they seek it out and you don't fool them with certified garbage. I treasure having such customers--the celebs who buy a year's supply of my garlic every year because it is the best they've ever had, to the 6 year old who eats four helpings of my mashed potatoes and throws up his thumb with, The BEST I've evah had! Certification, whether I chose to go for it or not, was never even close to being as satisfying as such knowledgable, discerning customers whose allegiance I knew I had won by being uncompromising about quality. There is no substitute for quality food. Steiner envisioned it would lift those who ate it above their personal ambition, illusions and petty jealousies. It was the vision of such food that led me into farming, eventually to discover biodynamics as an answer to my sincerest prayers. Biodynamic farmers do not always achieve this ideal such as I envisioned, and biodynamic certification does not guarantee it. I have not always achieved it myself--far from it--and there are times when I fail even
Re: Dornachian reactions?
Mr. Lovel, what radionic instrument do you recommend??? I will have time to work with it this season...sstorch ___ BDNow mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can unsubscribe or change your options at: http://lists.envirolink.org/mailman/listinfo/bdnow
European preps (was Re: Dornachian reactions?)
I would like to obtain some 'official' European preps please, that I can work up into homeopathics. At least save the ones that are there now for the future. Where does one buy them?? Glen - 'Official' preps can be bought in UK from Biodynamic Supplies (Paul van Midden), Lorieneen, Bridge of Muchalls, Stonehaven, Aberdeen (Scotland), AB39 3RU. fax 44 1569 731746. Tony N-S. _ Hotmail messages direct to your mobile phone http://www.msn.co.uk/msnmobile ___ BDNow mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can unsubscribe or change your options at: http://lists.envirolink.org/mailman/listinfo/bdnow
Re: European preps (was Re: Dornachian reactions?)
Thanks Tony GA BdMax distributors of ThermoMax -THE proven frost protection www.bdmax.co.nz - Original Message - From: Tony Nelson-Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2003 3:35 AM Subject: European preps (was Re: Dornachian reactions?) I would like to obtain some 'official' European preps please, that I can work up into homeopathics. At least save the ones that are there now for the future. Where does one buy them?? Glen - 'Official' preps can be bought in UK from Biodynamic Supplies (Paul van Midden), Lorieneen, Bridge of Muchalls, Stonehaven, Aberdeen (Scotland), AB39 3RU. fax 44 1569 731746. Tony N-S. _ Hotmail messages direct to your mobile phone http://www.msn.co.uk/msnmobile ___ BDNow mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can unsubscribe or change your options at: http://lists.envirolink.org/mailman/listinfo/bdnow ___ BDNow mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can unsubscribe or change your options at: http://lists.envirolink.org/mailman/listinfo/bdnow
Re: Dornachian reactions?
Graeme Upon reflection I do not hear people knocking the use of traditional preps. They are knocking the organisations who seem to be isolating themselves from their members and the wider BD community, yet maintain relevance because of their trademark and its apparant value. The fact is trademarks are near on irrelevant anyway. The real practise they are supporting is garbage ( check out NZ BD apple production - 28 Lime Sulphurs a season) and so its a matter of time till they are dead. Discussion hear in NZ is post organic registration quality based trademarks. The search is on for relevant quality parameters, regardless of the production method. eg SFW tests for soil, brix and chromas etc The present organisations are basically corrupt. Here in NZ, one or two old council members protested a fellow members right to be elected onto council because of 'conflict of interest', as he worked part time with me. Somehow it seems I am working against the economic good of Biodynamics.? In the US we have the 'biodynamic' ownership debacle. In Australia we have Podolinsky setting up his kingdom, in Europe we have them suggesting illegal actions Who do these people think they are, and sadly they seem to believe they are beyond reproach or criticism. While they controlled the BD media they were, now they dont and so they are not. Seems the best they can do is stay away from the forum and keep their heads in the sand. Their choice. Good luck to them and good luck to the free thinkers who look at all the options, apply them to their properties and prosper. The reality is this list offers biodynamics without limitations. Pick up what you want and go for it. Aquarian anarchy. Yahoo. GA BdMax distributors of ThermoMax -THE proven frost protection www.bdmax.co.nz - Original Message - From: Resonant Info [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biodynamic Food and Farming Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2003 11:16 PM Subject: Re: Dornachian reactions? If your interest is in biodynamics, you may be wondering if you are subscribed to the right group! Despite the numerous claims to the contrary that you may read on the BDNow group, biodynamics is thriving, here in Australia at least. People are using the real preps, as described and recommended by Rudolf Steiner, as practised for decades all over the world. Although some think this is some kind of old school, bogged down and in decay, it is still a living culture. If you are interested in agriculture, biodynamics, growing food for people to help in the recovery of the Earth, seek it out. If you are interested in subtle energies, radionics, homoeopathic dilutions and such, there is a lot of very interesting information to be found on this list. It would be great if we could get above the contemptible slagging that goes on about the other and keep the focus on the many practical and helpful suggestions people have. regards all, Graeme Gerrard -- ___ BDNow mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can unsubscribe or change your options at: http://lists.envirolink.org/mailman/listinfo/bdnow ___ BDNow mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can unsubscribe or change your options at: http://lists.envirolink.org/mailman/listinfo/bdnow
Re: Dornachian reactions?
Graeme Upon reflection I do not hear people knocking the use of traditional preps. They are knocking the organisations who seem to be isolating themselves from their members and the wider BD community, yet maintain relevance because of their trademark and its apparant value. well said Glen - you've captured my 'attitude' nicely! Lloyd Charles ___ BDNow mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can unsubscribe or change your options at: http://lists.envirolink.org/mailman/listinfo/bdnow
Re: Dornachian reactions?
Graeme Upon reflection I do not hear people knocking the use of traditional preps. They are knocking the organisations who seem to be isolating themselves from their members and the wider BD community, yet maintain relevance because of their trademark and its apparant value. The fact is trademarks are near on irrelevant anyway. The real practise they are supporting is garbage ( check out NZ BD apple production - 28 Lime Sulphurs a season) and so its a matter of time till they are dead. Discussion hear in NZ is post organic registration quality based trademarks. The search is on for relevant quality parameters, regardless of the production method. eg SFW tests for soil, brix and chromas etc The present organisations are basically corrupt. Here in NZ, one or two old council members protested a fellow members right to be elected onto council because of 'conflict of interest', as he worked part time with me. Somehow it seems I am working against the economic good of Biodynamics.? In the US we have the 'biodynamic' ownership debacle. In Australia we have Podolinsky setting up his kingdom, in Europe we have them suggesting illegal actions Who do these people think they are, and sadly they seem to believe they are beyond reproach or criticism. While they controlled the BD media they were, now they dont and so they are not. Seems the best they can do is stay away from the forum and keep their heads in the sand. Their choice. Good luck to them and good luck to the free thinkers who look at all the options, apply them to their properties and prosper. The reality is this list offers biodynamics without limitations. Pick up what you want and go for it. Aquarian anarchy. Yahoo. GA BdMax distributors of ThermoMax -THE proven frost protection www.bdmax.co.nz - Original Message - From: Resonant Info [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biodynamic Food and Farming Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2003 11:16 PM Subject: Re: Dornachian reactions? If your interest is in biodynamics, you may be wondering if you are subscribed to the right group! Despite the numerous claims to the contrary that you may read on the BDNow group, biodynamics is thriving, here in Australia at least. People are using the real preps, as described and recommended by Rudolf Steiner, as practised for decades all over the world. Although some think this is some kind of old school, bogged down and in decay, it is still a living culture. If you are interested in agriculture, biodynamics, growing food for people to help in the recovery of the Earth, seek it out. If you are interested in subtle energies, radionics, homoeopathic dilutions and such, there is a lot of very interesting information to be found on this list. It would be great if we could get above the contemptible slagging that goes on about the other and keep the focus on the many practical and helpful suggestions people have. regards all, Graeme Gerrard -- ___ BDNow mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can unsubscribe or change your options at: http://lists.envirolink.org/mailman/listinfo/bdnow ___ BDNow mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can unsubscribe or change your options at: http://lists.envirolink.org/mailman/listinfo/bdnow
Re: Dornachian reactions?
Dear Hugh Thanks for an interesting note - your mexican friend is obviously enjoying his success. I think the major problem with the old guard in Australia was one of communication (lack of it) , that disenchanted farmer that I quoted said " Alex wont address the problem", it should havebeen up to the farmer himself to recognise the problem in its early stages and to do something positive about it himself, and after twenty or so years as a practicing, certified, Biodynamic producer he should have been equipped to do that without needing to call on the services of the master. Striving for certification is part of the problem - there are rewards for organic certified produce - but I think only isolated opportunities for further premiums (above organic) from Demeterand then only for restricted quantities and specific situations. Our newer (Biodynamic Agriculture) organisation has taken a more open and educational position and many farmers are learning to do things for themselves.There will be more mistakes made for sure, but learning always involves mistakes. If the traditionalists manage to take over that organisation (and its likely, politics being what it is ) then there are enough of us free thinking loonies on the outside to carry things forward whatever happens. I believe that homeopathic remedies and what I term low level radionics - field broadcasters, potentiser instruments, (and probably some of the paper based systems), combined with dowsing and basic soil remineralising are the way of the future for agriculture. Energy farming! I sure have met some interesting people in the last few years! Cheers all Lloyd Charles ___ BDNow mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can unsubscribe or change your options at: http://lists.envirolink.org/mailman/listinfo/bdnow
Re: Dornachian reactions?
Mr. Lovel, what radionic instrument do you recommend??? I will have time to work with it this season...sstorch ___ BDNow mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can unsubscribe or change your options at: http://lists.envirolink.org/mailman/listinfo/bdnow Dear Steve, I recommend whatever one or ones you feel at ease and in good humor working with. I've found both the Hieronymus type (using variable capaticance and rates) and the Malcolm Rae type (using variable inductance and cards) are effective in agriculture, though for my taste the Malcolm Rae type is more versatile. What is your sense of what you'd like? Don Mattioda up in Avon, CT by you makes very good Hieronymus types and so does Peter Kelly in Lakemont, GA by me. The Malcolm Rae types have to be ordered from England or Australia. Best, Hugh Visit our website at: www.unionag.net ___ BDNow mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can unsubscribe or change your options at: http://lists.envirolink.org/mailman/listinfo/bdnow
Re: Dornachian reactions?
Dear Hugh Thanks for an interesting note - your mexican friend is obviously enjoying his success. I think the major problem with the old guard in Australia was one of communication (lack of it) , that disenchanted farmer that I quoted said Alex wont address the problem, it should have been up to the farmer himself to recognise the problem in its early stages and to do something positive about it himself, and after twenty or so years as a practicing, certified, Biodynamic producer he should have been equipped to do that without needing to call on the services of the master. Lloyd, This is too, too right, and is one of the important differences between Cheryl and Hamish's group and Alex's. Cheryl and Hamish spur their farmers on to ever greater heights and though this makes them a bit dependent on the central leadership for ever more and better learning experiences, in the long run there is a wealth of very, very BD wise and capable farmers out there instead of one Guru. Striving for certification is part of the problem - there are rewards for organic certified produce - but I think only isolated opportunities for further premiums (above organic) from Demeter and then only for restricted quantities and specific situations. Our newer (Biodynamic Agriculture) organisation has taken a more open and educational position and many farmers are learning to do things for themselves. There will be more mistakes made for sure, but learning always involves mistakes. Again, too right. If you aren't making any mistakes you aren't learning anything, and you probably aren't even doing very much. If the traditionalists manage to take over that organisation (and its likely, politics being what it is ) Let's hope it takes them a while. But you're right that it is the way of organizations. Henry David Thoreau said, Just as when there is a lull in a storm a snowdrift piles up, when there is a lull in the truth an organization springs up. Best, Hugh then there are enough of us free thinking loonies on the outside to carry things forward whatever happens. I believe that homeopathic remedies and what I term low level radionics - field broadcasters, potentiser instruments, (and probably some of the paper based systems), combined with dowsing and basic soil remineralising are the way of the future for agriculture. Energy farming! I sure have met some interesting people in the last few years! Cheers all Lloyd Charles ___ BDNow mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can unsubscribe or change your options at: http://lists.envirolink.org/mailman/listinfo/bdnow Visit our website at: www.unionag.net ___ BDNow mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can unsubscribe or change your options at: http://lists.envirolink.org/mailman/listinfo/bdnow
Re: Dornachian reactions?
- Original Message - From: mroiboz [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biodynamic Food and Farming Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, June 20, 2003 2:57 PM Subject: Re: Dornachian reactions? How does this help if one cannot make all the BD preps except Valerian? The new EU rules are no animals parts to be used for prep. making. Same problem for anthr. homeopathic medicine. Michael. Hi Michael We have already available the malcolm rae cards representing all of steiner's remedies plus the horn clays (as well as about 3000 other homeopatic substances) - using these cards and a small non powered instrument we bought for $525 (Aussie dollars - thats a whisker under $US300) - we can make more or less unlimited quantities of these remedies at practically nil cost and for very little effort. There is no physical substance involved - the preps used to prepare the cards, I believe, are Hugh Lovel's, and thats the closest they ever got to my farm. As an alternative to this method, with the instrument we have you can use a small amount of the real substance as input and potentise that - still there is nil physical substance in the potentised material. To say that this way will not or cannot work is to go in total denial of homeopathic medicine. This may not be the preferred option but it is an effective one. cheers Lloyd Charles ___ BDNow mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can unsubscribe or change your options at: http://lists.envirolink.org/mailman/listinfo/bdnow
Re: Dornachian reactions?
In N.Z. it is not a great deal different to Europe. There are quite a number
using the preparations in various forms and using other certifications. one
should remember that Steiner's instructions were to farm homoeopathicaly.
This instruction was given to the Koliskos who were attending the lectures
for medical practitioners and pharmacists. They were being instructed in the
use of decimal homoeopathy. During the agricultural lectures they were
commended for their work and after the lectures asked to continue with their
research. Steiner did not want the agricultural lectures made public, only
the work of those who brought it to physical manifestation. We should be
going through the process of trial and peer review, just like other
scientific disciplins. This crisis in Europe may be to help some people to
wake up to what Steiner's intentions really were.
Yes sleep is much more comfortable So leagal action may be needed to
cause a little more discomfort
regards,
Peter.
- Original Message -
From: Arjen Huese [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Biodynamic Food and Farming Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, June 20, 2003 8:24 PM
Subject: Re: Dornachian reactions?
A lot of European bdgrowers use the Demeter-symbol and get a higher price
for their products than for ordinary organic products. Part of the
requirements for using the Demeter-symbol is the ('traditional') use of
the
preps, not radionically applied but physically stirring and spraying.
Manfred Klett (the head of the agricultural section in the
Goetheanum-Dornach) suggests '... in the meantime we have to feel free to
act illegally...'
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Re: Dornachian reactions?
Arjen
Do you have a email address for the Geotheaneum ag folks?? Pls send.
Head in the sand is not a long term option, sorry. If they can not do
something then the rest of us better get busy.
Eh if preps are necessary for Demeter, preps illegal, therefore anything
with Demeter illegal. Its pretty simple. Cheating is getting harder and
harder, hence all the beaurocracy we live with. Once caught, thats it for
BD.We know so will everyone else. Madness.
I can appreciate they have trouble with radionic preps, sure hard to sell to
the everyman and provide substantial data for. Sure not a definable point of
difference, which afterall, applying the preps is all that separates organic
and BD in NZ.
Homeopathic preps on the other hand, can be quantified and applied
physically and therefore something is done and seen to be done, as they
need. Combine them with a bug source and you have both forces and matter
being applied, as they want.
I would like to obtain some 'official' European preps please, that I can
work up into homeopathics. At least save the ones that are there now for the
future.
Where does one buy them??
What is it about ófficial' BDers that they love shoving their heads in the
sand and maintain their mantra of delusion.
We have had it here for 25 years and it is still running as strong as ever.
cheers
GA
BdMax distributors of ThermoMax -THE proven frost protection
www.bdmax.co.nz
- Original Message -
From: Arjen Huese [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Biodynamic Food and Farming Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, June 20, 2003 8:24 PM
Subject: Re: Dornachian reactions?
A lot of European bdgrowers use the Demeter-symbol and get a higher price
for their products than for ordinary organic products. Part of the
requirements for using the Demeter-symbol is the ('traditional') use of
the
preps, not radionically applied but physically stirring and spraying.
Manfred Klett (the head of the agricultural section in the
Goetheanum-Dornach) suggests '... in the meantime we have to feel free to
act illegally...'
The Demeter certification bodies in Europe are strict: no application of
preps: no Demeter symbol. I knew a bdfarmer in Germany who invented his
own
preparation and applied it succesfully; he wanted to use it in stead of
Steiner's preps. The reaction of the Demeterbund was: if you don't use
Steiner's preps, than it is not Demeter, no matter how well his prep works
or any discussion.
I was just wondering what the attitude of the Demeter certification bodies
in USA, OZ, NZ is towards radionically applied preps/ Malcolm Rae cards,
etc. Or does nobody carry a Demeter symbol there?
Arjen
At 21:57 19/06/2003 -0700, you wrote:
How does this help if one cannot make all the BD preps except Valerian?
The
new EU rules are no animals parts to be used for prep. making. Same
problem
for anthr. homeopathic medicine.
Michael
- Original Message -
From: Hugh Lovel [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Biodynamic Food and Farming Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003 6:18 PM
Subject: Re: Dornachian reactions?
Arjen,
The best of health to you for visiting our e-mail list. It has bit a
bit
unfortunate that our English language e-mail list has left out
Germans.
You
should be full participants, but there is the language barrierier.
So now you want to know about how we can circumvent these rulings.?
One way would be working withn Malcolm Rae cards and English radionic
instruments of the biodynamic preparations in homeopathic usages.
Please
inquire further.
Best,
Hugh
Hallo,
It is really interesting stuff that people are working with here,
especially the cosmic pipes, homeopathic peppering and use radionic
instruments and cards. According to the feedback on this list, it
seems
like these things work as good, or even better, than the original
thing.
At
the same time we struggle in Europe with legislation that prohibits
the
making of the preparations, but the official point of view (regarding
the
ban on burying animal material) from the Goetheanum is (quote Manfred
Klett) '... in the meantime we have to feel free to act illegally...'
We only need one malignent journalist to broadcast these 'illegal'
practices into public and along with some juicy allegations we can
throw
away our dear Demeter symbol.
I would be interested to know the different points of view of the
respective BDAA's in USA, OZ and NZ, as apparently there is a much
more
free approach to the use of the preps. Any contact with Dornach? Has
Hugh
already delivered a lecture at the Landbautagung?
Arjen Huese
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Re: Dornachian reactions?
I bet Demeter wont change until the old guard dies out or the organisation itself and the farmers it serves are at the point of imminent failure - Lloyd If NZ is a guide, another generation has been sporned who believe the crap the older generation has sold them and they are fighting hard to maintain their follies. Sadly they have the facade of authority as they are an 'Association of members', who can therefore be taken somewhat seriously by government. Yes they are fading away, but until some other 'Associationarises with a Biodynamic trademark Demeter will be seen as the authority. Once they become illegal it should be easier for something else to arise, but alas the types of people drawn to dominating groups with any authority will no doubt produce a similiar organisation to what we have now. Aquarian anarchy may indeed continue to be the way forward for a bit yet. GA ___ BDNow mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can unsubscribe or change your options at: http://lists.envirolink.org/mailman/listinfo/bdnow
Re: Dornachian reactions?
Lloyd Charles wrote: >in Australia Alex Podolinsky >owns the [Demeter] trademark and would probably suffer a stroke if he caught one of >his farmers using radionics - the number three Podolinsky man left the fold >recently and told a friend of mine (another who left) that the farm is >stuffed, its lost all its energy and Alex wont address the problem which >these guys say is in the preps being supplied - you use his preps OR ELSE. . >cheers >Lloyd Charles > Dear Lloyd, et. al., For some time I've questioned whether Alex's preps aren't quite good, and it is the way he is using them that is so wrong. For example, I've found it is a serious error to use the 500 without the 501, or the 501 without the 500. That is, I do it occasionally for special reasons such as driving rain away, but I don't do it often. And several other of the preps should be applied in the atmosphere but are not. 506 (fruiting), 507 (blossoming) and 508 (ripening) should all be applied in the atmosphere, but often enough only the 508 is and sometimes even the 508 is left out of atmospheric treatments. I think if Alex had made his current mistakes using radionics he would have noticed them a lot earlier on while he might have been more able to change his ways with little embarassment. Now, however, he would have to have a really secure, expansive ego to admit errors of such magnitude and long standing. It would take a really enormous personality to do that (Like Jeff Poppen, whose conference is coming up in Red Boiling Springs, Tennessee in mid September.). However, my take on this is that radionic/homeopathic biodynamics is so easy and so effective we can do far, far more of it and see a lot more in terms of what results from various applications. Thus we learn a lot more about biodynamics a lot faster. A LOT! For this reason, if no others, I personally feel we are leaving the old school behind. They cannot possibly grow as fast nor accomplish the kinds of results we are accomplishing using radionics and homeopathy. Here is an example from a rancher using radionics and biodynamics in Mexico. I made him a set of Malcolm Rae biodynamic prep cards and a grasshopper card for his specific locust pest the way Peter Reuhmkorpf showed me (Field Grasshopper, Shistocera piceifrons , Elizondo, Tamaulipas, Mex. 5-20-03) He has a soil with a cation exchange capacity of 53 and nearly 30% Magnesium, so he has very tight clay that would be terribly expensive to balance minerally. Thus he has some mineral imbalances that result in fierce insect problems on some crops. But look at what he is doing and the success he is having, farming 800 hectares with a couple field broadcasters, a Malcolm Rae one card instrument with built in interrupter ($530 US), a pendulum and a few homeopathic cards. Plus, if he is at one ranch and he calls the other one and they have a problem, he can treat it radionically from his map of the ranch without having to drive over there (about 45 Kilometres). I suspect it won't be long before he gets a second instrument so he can treat both farms at the same time with different treatments. Of course, right now if he wants to give both farms the same treatment all he has to do is use both maps at the same time. Take a look at what he says: DEAR HUGH.- I HAD GOOD SUCCES WITH THE RAIN AND CLEARER SKYS USING THE PENDULUM FOR THE TIMES TO TURN ON AND OFF THE MALCOM RAE. ALSO THE LOCUSTS IN COLORADAS DIED OR WENT AWAY OR DEPOSITED THEIR EGGS AND DIED. I USED THE MALCOM RAE ON COLORADAS 24 HOURS A DAY AND IT SEEMS TO HAVE WORKED VERY WELL. I TURN THE TREAT SWICH MORNING AND AFTERNOON FOR THE BIODYNAMIC REMEDIES EVERY DAY AND GOT VERY GOOD GROWTH AND 3 INCHES OF RAIN WICH WAS BADLY NEEDED. THEN I TURNED THE MALCOM RAE TO POTRANCAS TO DO THE SAME ( IT HAD ALREADY RAINED 3 INCHES IN POTRANCAS ) AND HOPE WILL GET RID OF THE LOCUSTS WHICH ARE THERE IN GREAT NUMBERS. . . . JAIME Admitedly he misses out on the charming luxury of stirring and spraying, but he is getting rain, growing better crops than ever before, and getting rid of his grasshoppers without poisons where formerly he had to spray insecticide no matter the danger and expense. He's farming 800 hectares split up into two ranches, one grass dairy and one grass beef, guys. This stuff is not only effective, it is easy and cheap, cheap. So traditional biodynamics? It simply can't approach the ease and effectiveness of radionic/homeopathic biodynamics. I've heard a few traditional folks grouch that we should state on all our labels on our farms and crops that we are using radionics/homeopathics. I quite agree. We have every reason to be proud of the way we are practicing biodynamics. I'm all for such labeling, as it will make us stand out with considerable distinction. What do you think, Lloyd, Gil, James, Glen, Peter, Arjen, etc.? Incidentally, I quite agree that this sort of approach has advanced biodynamics and gotten more people to practice it in the past 5 years than
Dornachian reactions?
Hallo, It is really interesting stuff that people are working with here, especially the cosmic pipes, homeopathic peppering and use radionic instruments and cards. According to the feedback on this list, it seems like these things work as good, or even better, than the original thing. At the same time we struggle in Europe with legislation that prohibits the making of the preparations, but the official point of view (regarding the ban on burying animal material) from the Goetheanum is (quote Manfred Klett) '... in the meantime we have to feel free to act illegally...' We only need one malignent journalist to broadcast these 'illegal' practices into public and along with some juicy allegations we can throw away our dear Demeter symbol. I would be interested to know the different points of view of the respective BDAA's in USA, OZ and NZ, as apparently there is a much more free approach to the use of the preps. Any contact with Dornach? Has Hugh already delivered a lecture at the Landbautagung? Arjen Huese ___ BDNow mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can unsubscribe or change your options at: http://lists.envirolink.org/mailman/listinfo/bdnow
