Re: [Blackbelly] Times change and it is time to close the Listserv
Job well done Carol. Many thanks for all the wonderful connections with passionate people. Mark Wintermute -Original Message- From: Blackbelly [mailto:blackbelly-boun...@lists.blackbellysheep.info] On Behalf Of Carol Elkins Sent: Wednesday, September 20, 2017 6:20 PM To: blackbelly@lists.blackbellysheep.info Subject: [Blackbelly] Times change and it is time to close the Listserv Dear Listserv members, The Blackbelly Listserv was first created in 2001, and it has served a vital role in helping stabilize both the Barbados Blackbelly and American Blackbelly sheep breeds. It has provided a meeting place for a friendly community of breeders to discuss problems, answer questions, and generally provide support to each other. Messages have decreased considerably during the last two years, largely due to newer social media tools such as Facebook that can better serve member needs. This is as it should be---after all, this Listserv was born because in 2001 the only resource available to breeders was a clunky bulletin board. It is time to move on, so I will be shutting the Blackbelly Listserv down on October 1, 2017. You will always be able to search the group's archives at https://www.mail-archive.com/blackbelly@lists.blackbellysheep.info/ It has been a privilege working with the oldtimers who have contributed their time by responding to list messages and the newbies who were courageous enough to ask questions. It has been a joy working with such a great group of friendly and helpful people. We have never had a serious disagreement; no one has ever been flamed or gotten out of line. What a great group of people you are! So my heartfelt thank you to each of the 265 current members in this list. I wish you continued success with your blackbelly sheep. There is no more beautiful sheep in this world than a blackbelly sheep--regardless of which blackbelly breed it is. Carol Elkins List owner ___ This message is from the Blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info --- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. http://www.avg.com ___ This message is from the Blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info
Re: [Blackbelly] Dewormer chart for sheep
Don't forget location, location, location. Different geographic areas have different types of worms as well as natural tendency to not have worms. Here in Kansas, we have the tape worm and several others that we must deal with every year. Since our neighbor has cattle, goats, and sheep, cross field contamination occurs as well. Sharon Wintermute -Original Message- From: Carol Elkins Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2015 4:22 PM To: blackbelly@lists.blackbellysheep.info Subject: Re: [Blackbelly] Dewormer chart for sheep I think it is important to ensure really good health in your sheep to help them naturally resist the effects of worms. Pasture rotation helps reduce the worm population overall but the sheep will still have worms. If the sheep are very healthy, the loss of blood from the worms (with barber pole worms) won't affect them much. I have no experience with tape worm in sheep so I don't know what its life cycle is. I think I have been able to avoid deworming for 17 years because 1) I've invested in higher protein feeds, which has built a stronger immune system that can resist the blood loss; and 2) rotated pastures every week so that 30 days elapse before sheep return to grass they've already grazed. Carol At 09:36 AM 7/21/2015, you wrote: I am curious, for those that don't deworm how do you control the worm population in your flock? Even with rotating pasture every 2 weeks we have had to deal with tape worms for the 1st time this year. We have wormed with Safe Guard (fenbendazole) and are feeding diatomaceous earth with the feed every other day. Mike Carol Elkins Critterhaven Pueblo, Colorado http://www.critterhaven.biz ___ This message is from the Blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2015.0.6081 / Virus Database: 4392/10285 - Release Date: 07/22/15 ___ This message is from the Blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info
Re: [Blackbelly] ABB Rams fighting video
Michael, I watched it as well! It was awesome to see. We recently had our "friendly - petting zoo" type ram turn. :) Since we run with up to 20 rams and have separate breeding pens for about 8 each year, he realized he didn't get "his" turn this year. After jumping the fences into the breeding pens twice and threatening my hubby, we finally had to put him in a very high fenced 6 x 6 for the last month. Now that all the rams are out of the breeding pens and all back together, he is back to normal. A simple reminder of how Mother Nature works is thought provoking at best. Sharon Wintermute -Original Message- From: blackbelly-boun...@lists.blackbellysheep.info [mailto:blackbelly-boun...@lists.blackbellysheep.info] On Behalf Of Michael Smith Sent: Monday, January 06, 2014 9:32 PM To: blackbelly@lists.blackbellysheep.info Subject: Re: [Blackbelly] ABB Rams fighting video Glad you liked the video. Be careful with your bottle ram. Not sure how old he is, but Marley, the one watching from the side, with the long horns, is a bottle ram and would just as soon kill me if he had the chance. He'll take a full charge like these two in the video, but at me! Harpo, the aggressor was working over the second in command. As I mentioned on the caption of the video, I'm not sure yet if he moved rank or not. -MWS Sent from my iPad > On Jan 6, 2014, at 6:45 PM, "R. Natasha Baronas" wrote: > > Wow! Great video! I only have one adult ram and he occasionally takes a cheap run at me. He's a bottle baby and all I have to do is take his collar and its over. Such power and force with your rams. I can't believe how the one fella got knocked over like that! You must've felt helpless watching. I'm glad no one got hurt. Does this make the aggressor top ram now? > > Thanks for the video, > > Natasha > British Columbia, Canada > > Sent from my iPad > > > ___ > This message is from the Blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's > homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info ___ This message is from the Blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2014.0.4259 / Virus Database: 3658/6982 - Release Date: 01/07/14 ___ This message is from the Blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info
Re: [Blackbelly] Direct On-Farm Marketing of Slaughter Lambs and Goats
Before you allow the on-farm slaughter, please be sure to find out if it is legal in your area. When we contacted the FSA agent, we found out that on-farm slaughter is not legal in Kansas. We ended up using the "deliver to custom slaughter house" option. Sharon Wintermute -Original Message- From: blackbelly-boun...@lists.blackbellysheep.info [mailto:blackbelly-boun...@lists.blackbellysheep.info] On Behalf Of Carol Elkins Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2013 6:52 PM To: blackbelly@lists.blackbellysheep.info Subject: [Blackbelly] Direct On-Farm Marketing of Slaughter Lambs and Goats Here is a really useful article about direct on-farm marketing of slaughter lambs: http://sheepgoatmarketing.info/education/onfarmmarketing.php?source=newslett ersheep&utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=November-07-Shee p There is good information in it even if you would rather not offer on-farm slaughter. Carol Carol Elkins Critterhaven--Registered Barbados Blackbelly Hair Sheep (no shear, no dock, no fuss) Pueblo, Colorado http://www.critterhaven.biz ___ This message is from the Blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2014.0.4158 / Virus Database: 3615/6803 - Release Date: 11/02/13 ___ This message is from the Blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info
Re: [Blackbelly] Help TETANUS????
Hi Cecil, How old is your lamb? If he is beyond 30 days old he might have eaten too much of the pellets. I have never had a problem with oat hay and oats. I have had a lamb that grew so fast he became deficient in selenium/vitamin E. He was the biggest prettiest lamb out of 100+ lambs. He could not walk and was bloated from laying down on his side. We gave him a BO-SE injection and he was back to normal in 24 hours. We did a repeat shot of BO-SE to be safe 30 days later. This lamb turned out to be one incredible sire. I know you have had a bad experience with BO-SE before but it does not sound like you have much to lose to try it this time. You are already giving anti-biotics, surfactants, and electrolytes. The only other suggestion I have is to keep the lamb upright. You might want to make a sling and hang him next to a wall so his feet are beneath him proper. Or just fold his legs (if they will bend) under him and put him up against a wall. Just do not let him lie on his side. I am assuming the lamb is not plugged up. Make sure there is no blockage requiring an enema. Hope he makes it Cecil. I know you have skills but not all of them live. Good luck, Mark Wintermute It appears to be tetanus /enterotoxemia. any opinions would be welcome Cecil in OKla === Email scanned by PC Tools - No viruses or spyware found. (Email Guard: 7.0.0.21, Virus/Spyware Database: 6.16530) http://www.pctools.com/ === ___ This message is from the Blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info ___ This message is from the Blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info
Re: [Blackbelly] Peter's winter report (fwd)
> Only real problem is now if I talk about sheep with friends or co-workers their > eyes glaze over... I wish I had your problem at times. We have weekly (if not daily) sheep updates where I work. Since I am in IT and close to Kansas City, most of them have never seen or heard of life on a farm. My co-worker that sits in the next cube asks me every day if there is a cute story I can pass on. With my being the only female in the department, the "mating" rituals discussions are rather interesting. They love to hear technical descriptions and just can't fulfill their curiosity about such topics. There are times when I have to stop the conversations since they head in an "unacceptable" area. :) Sharon ___ This message is from the Blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info
Re: [Blackbelly] Polled Barbados Blackbelly Rams for Sale
You are welcome Liz. A little more insight... "R" at codon 171 is not as readily available in the Barbados Blackbelly and American Blackbelly breeds as it has been in other breeds of sheep. This is a situation that has improved in recent years. "K" at codon 171 is considerably rarer in sheep (less than 1% of sheep world wide). Although "K" is found in other breeds of sheep it is found in the Barbados Blackbelly and American Blackbelly sheep at a much higher percentage than any other breed I know of. Unfortunately there have not been enough resources to determine if there is any value to "K". There is a world wide genome mapping effort being made for sheep. At the end of the day it will be interesting to see how "K" may or may not link up to other genes and traits in the Blackbelly sheep breeds. Mark Wintermute -Original Message- From: blackbelly-boun...@lists.blackbellysheep.info [mailto:blackbelly-boun...@lists.blackbellysheep.info] On Behalf Of Liz Radi Sent: Monday, October 18, 2010 7:48 AM To: blackbelly@lists.blackbellysheep.info Subject: Re: [Blackbelly] Polled Barbados Blackbelly Rams for Sale Thank you Mark for the explanation. Liz Radi idar alpacas and nubians Nunn Colorado 970-897-2580 ___ This message is from the Blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info ___ This message is from the Blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info
Re: [Blackbelly] Polled Barbados Blackbelly Rams for Sale
Hi Liz, QR means the ram has resistance to most strains of scrapie. Having one copy of "R" at codon 171 means half of the ram's prodigy can be expected to inherit scrapie resistance. RR means the ram has resistance to most strains of scrapie. Having two copies of "R" at codon 171 means all of the ram's prodigy can be expected to inherit scrapie resistance. I am providing a much more detailed explanation from Cornell University. http://www.sheep.cornell.edu/management/health/scrapiegenetics.htm Mark Wintermute Subject: Re: [Blackbelly] Polled Barbados Blackbelly Rams for Sale What does "QR" mean? Liz Radi idar alpacas and nubians Nunn Colorado 970-897-2580 From: "The Wintermutes" To: Sent: Sunday, October 17, 2010 1:11 PM Subject: [Blackbelly] Polled Barbados Blackbelly Rams for Sale > > > Hello Everybody! > > > Every year I am contacted by people wanting rams for breeding early in the > year. Unfortunately I only sell rams in October, November, and December. > I > also typically only sell mature proven rams. This year I have had a very > nice crop of ram lambs. I in fact have more nice ram lambs than I can > use. > So for the first time I will have ram lambs for sale in the next few > months. > Most of these ram lambs will be "QR" at codon 171 and are 7+ months old. > > Back to the mature rams. I have four 2.5 year old polled Barbados > Blackbelly > rams for sale this Fall. > > I have 2 rams that have been tested "RR" at codon 171 for scrapie > resistance. These are just average sized and average parasite resistant > rams. They are not registered with the BBSAI. They are ready for > sale. One of the two rams is very friendly (begs to be petted). > The other is easily managed (not crazy) and might eat grain out of your > hand but does not want to be touched. > > I will have 1 ram that is either "QK" or "QR" at codon 171 for sale. > He is also friendly and enjoys being petted and hand fed treats. He is > average to above average in size. He has parasite resistance. > > I will have a ram that does not have scapie resistance and has been > tested "QQ" at codon 171 for sale. I am heart broken that he did not test > favorably for scrapie resistance. THIS RAM IS IMPRESSIVE!! He is a > big and tall fully marked hair coat ram. He made beautiful lambs this > year and I am breeding him again this fall before selling him. He > is easily managed and can be called from across the field to come to a > bucket. He does not want to be touched but can be held to check eyes > and such. He has a nice temperament. He has also shown very good > parasite resistance. If this ram had scrapie resistance he would never > have come up for sale. This is the highest quality ram. > > I am going to re-evaluate my 1.5 year old rams soon and will put some of > them up for sale as well. > > Some information about my farm. I typically have over 300 lambs born per > year. This year I downsized and only had 200 lambs born last spring. The > only ram lambs kept for observation are those that are in the top 10% by > weight of the entire lamb crop raised on pasture. We then take this 10% > and > see who gets "kicked off the island". To prevent inbreeding I turn over > my > rams quickly. Most of my rams only get to breed one time before being > replaced by a younger "survivor" ram. I am heavily involved in expanding > bloodlines and keeping inbreeding to a minimum. I generate Wright's > coefficients of inbreeding on every sheep and their prodigy on the farm. > Extensive computer programs are used to determine breeding strategies for > best results. We are currently using 20 different sires in our breeding > pens for 2011 lambs. > > > Let me know if you need a ram. > > Mark Wintermute > ___ This message is from the Blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info
[Blackbelly] Polled Barbados Blackbelly Rams for Sale
Hello Everybody! Every year I am contacted by people wanting rams for breeding early in the year. Unfortunately I only sell rams in October, November, and December. I also typically only sell mature proven rams. This year I have had a very nice crop of ram lambs. I in fact have more nice ram lambs than I can use. So for the first time I will have ram lambs for sale in the next few months. Most of these ram lambs will be "QR" at codon 171 and are 7+ months old. Back to the mature rams. I have four 2.5 year old polled Barbados Blackbelly rams for sale this Fall. I have 2 rams that have been tested "RR" at codon 171 for scrapie resistance. These are just average sized and average parasite resistant rams. They are not registered with the BBSAI. They areready for sale. One of the two rams is very friendly (begs to be petted). The other is easily managed (not crazy) and might eat grain out of your hand but does not want to be touched. I will have 1 ram that is either "QK" or "QR" at codon 171 for sale. He is also friendly and enjoys being petted and hand fed treats. Heis average to above average in size. He has parasite resistance. I will have a ram that does not have scapie resistance and has been tested "QQ" at codon 171 for sale. I am heart broken that he did not test favorably for scrapie resistance. THIS RAM IS IMPRESSIVE!! He is a big and tall fully marked hair coat ram. He made beautiful lambs this year and I am breeding him again this fall before selling him. He is easily managed and can be called from across the field to come to a bucket. He does not want to be touched but can be held to checkeyes and such. He has a nice temperament. He has also shown very good parasite resistance. If this ram had scrapie resistance he would never have come up for sale. This is the highest quality ram. I am going to re-evaluate my 1.5 year old rams soon and will put some of them up for sale as well. Some information about my farm. I typically have over 300 lambs born per year. This year I downsized and only had 200 lambs born last spring. The only ram lambs kept for observation are those that are in the top 10% by weight of the entire lamb crop raised on pasture. We then take this 10% and see who gets "kicked off the island". To prevent inbreeding I turn over my rams quickly. Most of my rams only get to breed one time before being replaced by a younger "survivor" ram. I am heavily involved in expanding bloodlines and keeping inbreeding to a minimum. I generate Wright's coefficients of inbreeding on every sheep and their prodigy on the farm. Extensive computer programs are used to determine breeding strategies for best results. We are currently using 20 different sires in our breeding pens for 2011 lambs. Let me know if you need a ram. Mark Wintermute ___ This message is from the Blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info
[Blackbelly] Testing
Haven't seen anything lately and my post did not hit. Just checking. Sharon ___ This message is from the Blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info
Re: [Blackbelly] IVY- UPDATE
Did your vet check for Johnnes disease. Mark Wintermute Subject: Re: [Blackbelly] IVY- UPDATE She is dreadfully thin. Sometimes I feel she is just starving to death. Thanks for the suggestions. Lin-Madison, WI ___ ___ This message is from the Blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info
Re: [Blackbelly] IVY- UPDATE
I have used molasses to entice sheep to eat. I had several hundred square bales the sheep were turning their noses up at. I put molasses diluted with hot water and drizzled it over the hay bale. They ate the hay without delay. After a few days I quit the molasses treatment and they ate the hay straight up. You can even put the molasses in her drinking water. It probably would be a good idea to let the sheep that are with Ivy to have the treat as well. A little competition and excitement might spur Ivy to eat. The molasses I buy comes from a local feed store and is fairly cheap. Mark Wintermute -Original Message- From: blackbelly-boun...@lists.blackbellysheep.info [mailto:blackbelly-boun...@lists.blackbellysheep.info] On Behalf Of ljacob4...@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 10:50 PM To: blackbelly@lists.blackbellysheep.info Subject: [Blackbelly] IVY- UPDATE Ivy has been hanging in there; although, last Thursday night (9/2), she appeared to feel really crummy. She laid down in the stall, ears lowered and put her head down. I thought for sure, I would lose her overnight. When I looked in on Friday morning, she was alert and very hungry. The weather got considerably cooler that day so the sheep went outside and ate like they normally do including Ivy. My daughter came back from McDonald's with some french fries. Ivy begged for them so we fed them to her. (Turns out this was a one day deal...she hasn't been interested since.) I was shocked that she seemed significantly better. The vet came out later that day. He was very impressed with how Ivy looked even though she is very thin. He took blood, urine, fecal. He checked her teeth which were okay and gave her a B-12 injection. The fecal sample was negative. The vet said the kidney had to be working in order to dilute the urine to the numbers it showed. The BUN was 25. (It is my understanding that 30-40 was normal.) Creatnene was 1.5 which is the high end of normal; phosphorous was normal and her white blood cell count was way down. The vet is a little concerned about the white blood cell count but he said the machine they used to check the values is really set up for horses/dogs/cats so he was sending it to another lab just to make sure. The good news is that I think I can quit worrying about the kidney problems at this point. The bad news is that Ivy is still not feeling real good. Since Saturday, she again just stands around, ears lowered, not chewing cud. She does follow the other two sheep outside and I have seen her eat a little fresh grass. The last time I force-fed her with grain and electrolyes was Thurs. morning (9/2). I bought hay cubes, soaked them and tried force-feeding them on Thurs. but she put up such of a fight with both the hay and grain that I quit trying. At present, Ivy just doesn't seem interested in eating although she must be eating something because she is pooping some and it looks normal. I am going to start giving her the electrolytes with the probiotics mixed in. Something has to get that rumen going again. Any more ideas? Thanks to all of you for your many suggestions. I think you all played a part in getting Ivy through this kidney problem. Lin (Madison, WI) ___ This message is from the Blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info ___ This message is from the Blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info
Re: [Blackbelly] Ram Off His Feed
What kind of condition is your ram in - is he very skinny, normal or fat? If he is skinny it could be Johnnes disease. I would be looking for an injury. This could be in the mouth. Or is it possible he has been hit by another ram? I have lost rams from getting hit in the ribs by another ram (cheap shot). Does he have any kind of limp, or hold his head not quite right? At 14 months of age coming into the fall season there is going to be some fighting with the rams. Sorry I do not have more to offer. Mark Wintermute Subject: [Blackbelly] Ram Off His Feed I need some advice. Lawrence is a 14 mo. old AB ram. Last Thursday he did not come to eat. ___ This message is from the Blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info
Re: [Blackbelly] A question about grain
Another alternative if you can buy in quantity is DDG - Dried distillery grains. The price ranges based on location it is usually in the $110 - 125 range per TON here in Kansas. It also switches from corn (yellow DDG) to milo (red DDG). It is a fine mix like sand. The sheep love it. We buy it 2 tons at a time and use it when lactating and the harsh Kansas winter. -Original Message- From: blackbelly-boun...@lists.blackbellysheep.info [mailto:blackbelly-boun...@lists.blackbellysheep.info] On Behalf Of Michael Smith Sent: Friday, August 13, 2010 10:14 PM To: blackbelly@lists.blackbellysheep.info Subject: Re: [Blackbelly] A question about grain I give them Alfalfa pellets and occasionally, for a treat, oat whole grain. I get them both at Tractor Supply in California. _MWS On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 8:36 PM, Tom Quinn wrote: > Before I get to the question ewe 2 just had a nice healthy little ewe lamb. > That helps counter the 2 that we lost. So--for live lambs, we now > have two ewes and 1 ram. > > Now to my question. I have been feeding exclusively hay. Would > anyone recommend grain for the lactating ewes? If so, what? > > Tom quinn > > ___ > This message is from the Blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's > homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info > ___ This message is from the Blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info ___ This message is from the Blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info
Re: [Blackbelly] Copper
My previous post eluded to the a little is good, a lot is bad. Since there are those that believe any copper is bad, I was trying to be cautious. We definitely saw an improvement when we added copper to the mineral mix. Interesting, we found an old study that used copper as a wormer. We tried it and it worked well. You have to be very careful with it since like just about any wormer, it can kill. With 500 head, we have had the ability to try multiple ideas since we can have a control group. Sharon -Original Message- From: blackbelly-boun...@lists.blackbellysheep.info [mailto:blackbelly-boun...@lists.blackbellysheep.info] On Behalf Of Mary Swindell Sent: Sunday, June 13, 2010 6:33 PM To: blackbelly@lists.blackbellysheep.info Subject: Re: [Blackbelly] Copper Several years ago my friend and blackbelly sheep breeder Barb Lee posted quite a bit of correspondence to this e-mail list regarding some nutritional problems she was seeing in her sheep. She concluded that her sheep were actually suffering from a copper deficiency, and she had quite a bit of data to back up that conclusion. Her sheep began to improve once she added an appropriate level of copper as a supplement to their diet. It was very interesting because like Carla's note below, Barb said essentially that because copper-free sheep diets have been promoted so heavily, many sheep breeders overlook the fact that their flocks can sometimes actually be suffering from too LITTLE copper. I do not know if Barb is still subscribed to this e-mail list, but if you are Barb, it would be very helpful if you could give us the basics of this information again! Thanks in advance, Mary Swindell At 05:00 PM 6/13/2010, you wrote: >Message: 3 >Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2010 06:41:54 -0700 (PDT) >From: Carla Amonson >To: "blackbelly@lists.blackbellysheep.info" > >Subject: [Blackbelly] Copper >Message-ID: <711538.58666...@web32504.mail.mud.yahoo.com> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > >Intetesting that copper came up yesterday as I was talking to a >livestock nutritioust on Friday about copper. Did you know that sheep >can very safely conusume up to 7ppm of Cooper daily? Our industry has >chosen to promote copper free when in reality our sheep do need some >copper and there are startig to be some issues our there with copper >deficiencies. We cam get custom mineral mixes here according to feed >and soil samples, but a minimum of 400 lbs. That is a lot of mineral, >even with 210 head! I generally mix in some cattle mineral with my >sheep mineral. >There are many vegetarian dog treats out there-even a tiny bit if meat >is a concern. That is supposedly what caused BSE if you recall and has >made a 8 year nightmare of the cattle industry in Canada. I am a >little more inclinded to believe the story about pour on wieners >causing BSE myself, but still herbavors should not eat animal products >of any sort. > >Carla Amonson ___ This message is from the Blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info ___ This message is from the Blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info
Re: [Blackbelly] treats for taming
Since I know Carol knows this :), I just want to make everyone aware to be careful when using dog food. Some (depends on the brand) are high in copper. We all know that a little isn't bad, but I have seen this cause problems before. As with anything, a little is usually okay, a lot is bad. We use corn or DDG (dried distillery grains). Sharon -Original Message- From: blackbelly-boun...@lists.blackbellysheep.info [mailto:blackbelly-boun...@lists.blackbellysheep.info] On Behalf Of Carol Elkins Sent: Friday, June 11, 2010 12:16 PM To: blackbelly@lists.blackbellysheep.info Subject: [Blackbelly] treats for taming I have found that my popularity with my sheep has increased significantly now that I occasionally carry a handful of dog kibble. Several of the sheep now mob me, begging for treats. I dispense the kibble piece by piece into upturned, open mouths. Not all of my sheep are willing to swap their inherent distrust of humans for such a tasty reward, but several have. It makes my evening zen time more pleasurable for me, and for them. I DO NOT recommend doing this if you feed guardian dogs in the same pen with the sheep. The poor dogs would never get a chance at their food. Carol Elkins Critterhaven--Registered Barbados Blackbelly Hair Sheep (no shear, no dock, no fuss) Pueblo, Colorado http://www.critterhaven.biz ___ This message is from the Blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info ___ This message is from the Blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info
Re: [Blackbelly] Our Blackbelly's guard dog
We don't shear our Pyrenees here in Kansas. We do have a pond they have access to so I have seen them take baths when they get too hot. As to cropping, I wouldn't. Ours has problems with flies biting the nose so exposing the skin doesn't sound like a good idea to me. Sharon -Original Message- From: blackbelly-boun...@lists.blackbellysheep.info [mailto:blackbelly-boun...@lists.blackbellysheep.info] On Behalf Of Jerry Sent: Monday, May 24, 2010 7:20 AM To: blackbelly@lists.blackbellysheep.info Subject: [Blackbelly] Our Blackbelly's guard dog Greta, our Pyrenees, is now 11 months old and right at home with our flock. She is our first guard dog and I appreciate the advice from this forum on training her. It was more like an introduction of her to the sheep and the sheep to her than a training regimen. She is terrific! But her coat is thick and heavy and we live in South Mississippi where it is very hot and humid. I have a friend here who raises Pyrenees and never cuts their hair. He advises not to trim her coat, saying she will shed all she needs. My question is: Is there a downside to a very close cropping? Thanks for sharing your experiences? Jerry ___ This message is from the Blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info ___ This message is from the Blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info
Re: [Blackbelly] Shepherds tactics
I believe this "shepherd tactic" is fiction. I have had several lambs with a broken leg. First those little three leggers can be very difficult to catch. Second, not all of them had happy endings with healed legs. And third, many of those lambs had no fondness of the shepherd that continually doctored their painful injury. Mark Wintermute In a discussion this morning some one told me they had heard that a tactic used by shepherds with lambs that continuously ran off was to break a leg and carry the lamb so the lamb could not/would not run away for the period of time the leg was healing. During the healing time the shepherd would carry the lamb on his shoulders thus creating in the lamb a dependence/fondness on the shepherd. Let me be clear, I am not condoning this in the least simply interested to know if any one has ever heard of this tactic being used by any one tending sheep. TIA, Dave ___ This message is from the Blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info
Re: [Blackbelly] Blind lamb
I had a very young lamb get an eye infection that spread to other eye and left her blind despite the antibiotics. The blind lamb did quite well never leaving the mother's side. She learned the pasture and the daily routine and was very normal - as long as mom was nearby. Once we saw her lose her bearings and get separated from mom. She went through the electric fence which separated her from mom. By the time we managed to get the blind lamb back into the lot with mom the lamb was in a panic. She heard her mom yell for her and immediately bee-lined towards her. Unfortunately mom was on the opposite side of a fairly large pond. The lamb went into the water and swam the entire length of the pond to rejoin with her mother. The good news is this lamb eventually did get her sight back and have a normal life. I also learned that lambs are very capable swimmers (even if they do not like the water)! My advice would be to keep the lamb and mom in a very non-complicated environment that the lamb can learn to live in. Mark Wintermute Subject: [Blackbelly] Blind lamb I have a baby lamb (ram) that is a twin and he apparently is blind. I have had several babies over the years and this is a first with any type of birth defects. His mother should be nominated "mother of the year". She is taking excellent care of him and has been very patient with his misgivings. She has raised twins many years in a row with no problems and is experienced so I guess that helped. Has anybody else had this situation in the past and any advice would be appreciated. Thanks, Bob from Missouri. ___ This message is from the Blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info
Re: [Blackbelly] Question on copper
Hi Oneta, Copper is an accumulative poison to sheep. Sheep need copper but they use it so slowly that their nutritive needs are usually met through their environment. Other minerals also can bind the copper making it less dangerous to the sheep. This complex relationship makes a 10ppm copper statement on feed pretty much useless without an all encompassing assessment of the sheep's environment. I have read that a sheep needs around 5ppm copper in its diet per day. I do not remember the source of this information. Again, this dietary copper is normally met through their common forage consumption. Copper poison in sheep typically presents itself as a sudden death following a stressful situation. The copper that has accumulated in the liver over a period of time for some reason is suddenly released killing the sheep. I do believe the Blackbelly sheep tolerance for copper is much higher than other breeds. I would love to see a scientific study confirming this though. I sure wish there was an easy test to determine the right amount of copper for our Blackbelly sheep. The only test I know of is to send the liver in for analysis at a laboratory. I would prefer a test that did not require killing the patient! Mark Wintermute Subject: [Blackbelly] Question on copper I have heard and read so many things I have a question. I am looking at changing my horse feed and it never fails the sheep eat thiers then run to the horses and the horses let them eat with them. The copper in the horse feed i am looking at is 10ppm. What is to much for our hair sheep. I can not find anything 100%. I find it depends on the breed, the age, etc. I am in OK so we have never had copper issues but you never know. Appreciate any and all feedback. Thanks. Oneta and The Gang www.johnsonquarterhorses.com Don't tell GOD what to do, just report for duty! ___ This message is from the Blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info
Re: [Blackbelly] Update on bottle lamb
I prefer a minimum of 8 weeks of full milk for a bottle baby before weaning. And even then the bottle baby must weigh at least 25 pounds or I will continue to bottle feed. At weaning the bottle baby must be eating grass and grain with gusto. I typically do "batches" of bottle babies so when the last one meets all the requirements for weaning they all get weaned. I abruptly pull all milk and wean them "cold turkey". They are very unhappy for a few days and then are fine. I have had several lambs weaned at 30 days due to the deaths of their mothers. Obviously milk was abruptly cut off in these situations. The lambs have survived but need perfect creep feed and pasture conditions. Mark Wintermute Subject: [Blackbelly] Update on bottle lamb Thought I would share some experiences with the bottle lamb since I last posted (6/23). We successfully reintroduced the lamb to the herd at 7 days old. We would go down to the barn every 4 hours and feed, but otherwise we were hands-off. She adapted well and appears to be only slightly smaller than her sister. We went through a couple of bouts with scours (cut milk concentration ~50% and pepto then slowly increased milk concentration) and survived. The lamb will be 7 weeks old on 8/5. She currently gets a bottle of full strength replacer milk every 8 hours and drinks about 15 ounces in 3 minutes flat. She eats grain, hay and grass with the other 9 lambs and acts like a sheep - except that she actually comes when we call her and is not afraid of the family dog (the dog normally licks the excess milk from the lamb's face). Its getting close to time to wean and we are thinking of trying to reduce the feedings to every 12 hours for about a week and then go to once a day for about a week before stopping the bottle. Any suggestions? John Carlton Double J Farms Spanish Fort, Alabama 251-625-2519 doublejfa...@wildblue.net ___ This message is from the Blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info
Re: [Blackbelly] antibiotics
It pretty much depends on how bad off your ewe is. I have had much success with LA-200 in similar situations. I would clean the wound daily flushing it out with hydrogen peroxide. If there is a deep pocket, puncture, or difficult area to access I flood that area after cleaning with Pen-G. Feed the ewe extra well. I have seen truly amazing healing capabilities from these sheep. Mark Wintermute -Original Message- From: blackbelly-boun...@lists.blackbellysheep.info [mailto:blackbelly-boun...@lists.blackbellysheep.info] On Behalf Of Erin Mossa Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 10:47 AM To: blackbelly@lists.blackbellysheep.info Subject: [Blackbelly] antibiotics Hi every one, I have a young ewe that got caught in the fence. I thought her leg might be broken at first. Because she is turned out in a large field and it would take a bit of chasing to get her caught I decided to watch her for a week or two to see what kind of progress she made. Well her swelling is way down but she is still not right. I finally decided to bit the bullet and bring her in. The catching went surprisingly smooth. Turns out she has a cut up under her thigh. It is very infected at this point. I flushed it out with iodine and packed it to keep the flies out. I gave her a shot of Pen-G. My question is what is the best antibiotic for this situation? Pen-G,La 200 Any input would be great! Thanks, Erin Be your own boss. Click here for information on starting your own business. http://thirdpartyoffers.netzero.net/TGL2241/fc/BLSrjpYRRJVUZEvE3YfTCXBw7dh5K JrYr7LDoRcxpCeOXauyaK6CQdgUVYc/ ___ This message is from the Blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.287 / Virus Database: 270.12.7/2085 - Release Date: 04/29/09 06:37:00 ___ This message is from the Blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info
Re: [Blackbelly] Lamb Sales
Read the fine print of the Macon sale for specifically sheep sales. I sold 30+ ewe lambs at Macon last Fall for around $35 each. They took a $15 per head minimum commission. Just go in aware of their policy. Mark Subject: [Blackbelly] Lamb Sales I will be at the exotic animal sale in Macon MO with bottle lambs if anyone wants one . Also if anyone is interested in bigger sheep I can deliver. Nancy ___ This message is from the Blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info
Re: [Blackbelly] Lamb Sales
Read the fine print of the Macon sale for specifically sheep sales. I sold 30+ ewe lambs at Macon last Fall for around $35 each. They took a $15 per head minimum commission. Just go in aware of their policy. Mark -Original Message- From: blackbelly-boun...@lists.blackbellysheep.info [mailto:blackbelly-boun...@lists.blackbellysheep.info] On Behalf Of Nancy & Tom Richardson Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 6:18 PM To: blackbelly@lists.blackbellysheep.info Subject: [Blackbelly] Lamb Sales I will be at the exotic animal sale in Macon MO with bottle lambs if anyone wants one . Also if anyone is interested in bigger sheep I can deliver. Nancy - Original Message - From: To: Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 5:01 PM Subject: Blackbelly Digest, Vol 5, Issue 67 > Send Blackbelly mailing list submissions to > blackbelly@lists.blackbellysheep.info > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://lists.blackbellysheep.info/listinfo.cgi/blackbelly-blackbellysh > eep.info > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > blackbelly-requ...@lists.blackbellysheep.info > > You can reach the person managing the list at > blackbelly-ow...@lists.blackbellysheep.info > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Blackbelly digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. sick lamb (Nancy & Tom Richardson) > 2. microscopes for fecal tests (Cathy Mayton) > 3. Re: microscopes for fecal tests (Becky Lannon) > 4. Re: microscopes for fecal tests (Cathy Mayton) > > > -- > > Message: 1 > Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2009 17:39:25 -0500 > From: "Nancy & Tom Richardson" > Subject: [Blackbelly] sick lamb > To: > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; > reply-type=original > > Hello, I know my jacobs are different but I have a question about a > sick lamb perhaps someone may have seen in their balckbellies. He is a > bottle baby first of all. About a month old. The first 2 weeks of his > life he ate like a pig! now for the last 2 weeks I have been lucky to > get 5 ounces of milk every 6 hours down him. He has gotten a little > skinny. He has Kent lamb pellets, hay, mineral , baking soda and water > all available and is in a pen inside with others that are half his age > and eat more than he. He shows no real signs of eating hay, pellets > etc. Any ideas? He doesn't have a snotty nose or anything and when he > does eat he sucks hard and excitiedly.. Any > help would be appreciated. Nancy my email off list is > cjarr...@centurytel.net > > > > -- > > Message: 2 > Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 06:47:19 -0700 > From: Cathy Mayton > Subject: [Blackbelly] microscopes for fecal tests > To: blackbelly digest > Message-ID: > <8abbba9d0904060647n558b2e40k4bc0b5cc52322...@mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > For those who may be interested in doing fecals, I have 2 Premiere > microscopes for sale, each has 4x, 10x, 20x and 30x and 40x objectives > -- > Cathy Mayton > LeapN Lambs > Winnemucca, NV > > > -- > > Message: 3 > Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 09:42:34 -0500 > From: "Becky Lannon" > Subject: Re: [Blackbelly] microscopes for fecal tests > To: > Message-ID: <9d0276a8ec4f4a8288e2e7a50a894...@beckysofficepc> > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; > reply-type=original > > - Original Message - > From: "Cathy Mayton" > To: "blackbelly digest" > Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 8:47 AM > Subject: [Blackbelly] microscopes for fecal tests > > >> For those who may be interested in doing fecals, I have 2 Premiere >> microscopes for sale, each has 4x, 10x, 20x and 30x and 40x >> objectives >> -- >> Cathy Mayton >> LeapN Lambs >> Winnemucca, NV >> ___ >> This message is from the Blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's >> homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info > > Cathy, > > What are you asking for them? > > Becky Lannon > Lone Star Farm > > > -- > > Message: 4 > Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 08:35:34 -0700 > From: Cathy Mayton > Subject: Re: [Blackbelly] microscopes for fecal tests > To: blackbelly@lists.blackbellysheep.info, Becky Lannon > > Message-ID: > <8abbba9d0904060835r29e549d8ybb0ca61e2bdb5...@mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > Hi Becky, > > I paid $800 for them but am askint $450 or make me a good offer. > > Cathy > > > > On Mon, Apr 6, 2009 at 7:42 AM, Becky Lannon > > wrote: >> - Original Message - From: "Cathy Mayton" >> >> To: "blackbelly digest" >> Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 8:47 AM >> Subject: [Blackbelly] microscopes for fecal tests >> >> >>> For those who may be interested in doing fecals, I have ?2 Premiere >>> microscopes for sale, each has 4x, 10x, 20x and 30x and 40x >>> objectives >>> --
[Blackbelly] Happy Ending
Just thought I would share a good outcome. I have a ewe that had a Barbados Blackbelly ram lamb (single) around 6 days ago. This ewe is a 10 on a scale of 1 to 10 with 1 = Tame and 10 = Lunatic, Flighty, Highly excitable. Her lamb is quite large and looked really stressed and lethargic ever since birth. I had been keeping an eye on him, but had not grabbed him, since in doing so his mother would have trampled him and any other lamb in her way. Finally late on the second day I grabbed the ram lamb since he did not appear to be getting better. I felt his tongue and could tell he had lost significant body heat. Also his sucking impulse was almost non-existant. So into the house we go to join the rest of the orphaned bottle babies. We warmed him up with a heater and managed to get half an ounce of formula down him. An hour later we were able to get a full ounce of formula down him. From that point on every hour we tried to feed him but he barely ate anything. OK... we start the enema treatments and are able to get a large amount of impacted hard playdough feces out. After awhile the enemas stopped yielding any results so we just focused on feeding. Sometimes we were able to get down 2 ounces at a feeding. We continued to make feeding attempts nearly every hour. On the third day he ate four ounces! Several feedings later on the third day yielded the same four ounces. Now this lamb is quite large so even four ounces isn't a proper feeding. This morning for the first time he wanted a bottle NOW and managed to inhale 8 ounces reluctantly allowing air into the bottle. Three hours later I reintroduced the lamb to the barnyard. He cried and cried but his momma just sadly mooed/baad from a distance. It was obvious the ewe believed she was in a dream state. She did not believe it was possible that the lamb in the distance could be hers. After all she had scoured the barnyard looking for her baby and it was gone. Well... it took a lot of very passive and strategic herding but I finally managed to get momma and baby in the same general vicinity of each other. The lamb was quite confused and willing to go home with any momma that might feed him. But there would be no adoptive momma in this barnyard and all he was receiving was head butts. Then his birth mom saw him, then she smelled him, and then we had the most grateful celebration of incredible love as she rejoiced in the return of her baby! She immediately settled down into feeding her baby never ceasing softly talking to him and encouraging him. It was a good morning. Mark Wintermute ___ This message is from the Blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info
Re: [Blackbelly] Hard Poops
I am glad to see I got it right Michael. As far as a manual for raising lambs hmmm... My lambing started the 19th and has been a rather rough start. We had 5 premature lambs of which 4 died from undeveloped lungs. Had a successful c-section delivery from a dying ewe, And had a ewe abandon perfect twins. So within two days I had 4 bottle babies. The good news is two of the bottle babies have already been sold. The rest of the babies are coming in very nicely. As of this writing I have 15 live lambs. I am expecting the birth rate to start climbing up to around 25 lambs per day. I am aiming for 300 lambs but it was a hard winter so we shall see. Mark Wintermute To: blackbelly Subject: [Blackbelly] Hard Poops Mark, you should write a manual on how to raise lambs. And for the rest of you, this mailing list is invaluable thanks to everyone on it and for all your help. Hope things are going well with your new arrivals. Last night, I followed your advice about all the cravings the lambs were having that I did not understand, and put the willow log back in with the healthier ewe lambs with bad scours, (instantly chewing on it) and a couple cups of oatmeal in a bowl (completely gone by morning) and a big dirt clod that is basically, our loamy/sandy clay-like soil (if you roll it into a ball and let it try, it almost makes a tan-colored ceramic-like object). This morning? All hard poops. I even went out to the pasture and pulled some of the hard twigs from the star thistle from last year, that they love to chew on when I let them out of jail, on occasion. They instantly went after them, once I dropped them in. Thank you. I'll let them out in the evenings, when I can get them back in after an hour or so, and let them indulge. They actually spend little time eating the wet, green grass. Mostly they go after these less-obvious food choices I mentioned above. and Bam Bam, interestingly, was not very hungry yesterday, but dehydrated (after a week of albon), he drank water from a bowl for the first time. This morning is his first morning without Albon, and I think, coincidentally, he started ruminating all during the time we were trying to bottle-feed him. Once we put him down, he laid there and urped up and chewed. What? I'm not sure, since he really has not eaten much alfalfa. So I gave him oats and a small log, and a dirt clod as well as a nice bowl of water, and still some alfalfa. His temp was also 102.0, which I have not seen for 3 weeks. _Michael, Perino Ranch Blackbellies. ___ This message is from the Blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info
Re: [Blackbelly] Coccidiosis or E.Coli as a cause of scours.
Just a forewarning coccidiosis is capable of coming on so fast that there are no scours or diarrhea just dead lambs. Corid has worked for me in the past. Glad to hear about Bam Bam! Mark Wintermute Subject: [Blackbelly] Coccidiosis or E.Coli as a cause of scours. I'm new to this mailing list, but am curious why we don't mention Coccidia or E. Coli as a possible source of scours, more often? Especially, since, if there's an outbreak of coccidia in the lamb flock, the indications I find on the web usually say that pretty much all the scouring lambs likely have it. I am finding tons of links on the subject and found two of my 4 lambs responding to Neomycin for their scours after only 3 day's treatment (none have had as fecal sent to the lab yet). I would have used Albon this weekend, but the supply place I go to did not have it, and the vet was closed. Both are sufa-based drugs. Even Bam Bam is starting to make pellet poop. (thank God) The Scoursguard is supposed to show up today, and I will check the ingredients of it before administering. I'm very curious to see if it's Acidophilus and Wormwood. meantime, here's some very helpful links: Here's a great general sheet on all sorts of Lamb/goat gut problems: http://www.sheepandgoat.com/articles/scours.html (interestingly, it shows a BB or AB in the picture) This breeders started with chemicals for her goat kids: http://fiascofarm.com/goats/coccidiosis_experiment_schedule.htm and moved to herbal/holistic approach: http://fiascofarm.com/herbs/wormer.htm _Michael, Perino Ranch Blackbellies. ___ This message is from the Blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info
Re: [Blackbelly] Bottle-Baby as New Mother
Hi Elaine, I would not consider her behavior due to her being raised a bottle baby. I have had ewes have lambs that had their scent washed off from heavy rains act this way. They yell for their lost baby but will not accept that the baby trying to suckle is theirs (very frustrating). I have had several young maiden ewes mis-mother but the vast majority instinctively do the correct behavior. So far... I have not had a ewe raised as a bottle baby reject a lamb unless they were sick. I would try a head stanchion and tie the hind legs to some stakes/posts properly spaced. It is difficult but many times after three or more days the mother accepts the baby as theirs. Or... you can raise another bottle baby. Mark Wintermute To: Blackbelly Newsletter Subject: [Blackbelly] Bottle-Baby as New Mother I know there are many of you who have raised bottle-babies, as have I. My first bottle-baby ewe (all others were rams, and am currently raising a bottle-baby ewe) had her first baby last week. . . . . and she was completely clueless! I tried separating the two of them, putting them in a shelter away from the rest of the herd. Sara (the momma) paced the fence bawling at the top of her lungs. Any time the lamb would walk near her, she would butt it violently and continually until she knocked him down, then start pacing and bawling again. I tried getting in the temporary pen with her which quieted her down, but any time the lamb approached, she would butt him away. I tried putting a lead around her neck and holding her head up so she couldn't push him away, but any time he got close to her udder, especially if he touched it or a nipple, she would stomp and kick at him. I tried securing her hind end as well, but those legs still were able to kick him away. She is pretty young, just turned 13 months old which means she got pregnant when she was only 8 months old. Could this be part of the problem? Is she so stupid because she was raised on a bottle? Was her bawling her way of telling us that someone needed to bring the lamb some milk? Have any of you had similar experiences with bottle-baby ewes when they become a mother? Will this happen again? Can I expect the same results with my current bottle-baby ewe? This was a very disappointing and depressing scenario. Any shared experiences would be appreciated. Thanks, Elaine ___ This message is from the Blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info ___ This message is from the Blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info
Re: [Blackbelly] Update on Sally after vet visit
Urinary calculi usually is found in males. I was thinking more as a general inflammation. It has been too long ago but I think I used Epsom salts. And I cannot remember if I was successful or not. It is just a nagging memory. Mark I have seen Sally pee in a steady stream just today so I don't suspect urinary calculi. Dayna Denmark Half Ass Acres ___ This message is from the Blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info ___ This message is from the Blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info
Re: [Blackbelly] Update on Sally after vet visit
"Kicking at her belly", this has meant a urinary problem in my sheep before. She is drinking and peeing right? Mark W. Well it's been a week since the mobile vet came and examined Sally. Physical exam showed teeth ok, temp normal, but rumen activity low. Blood was drawn as well as fecal samples collected from Sally and the rest of the flock. Fecals came back clean, as well as a check for liver flukes. Blood count showed low protein as well as low calcium. White and red cell counts were normal. The vet set it up for me to meet a farm butcher to collect fresh rumen contents from a slaughter and orally give the fluids to Sally to see if we could get her rumen going strong again. Sally received this treatment last friday. Since then I have not seen any improvement in her appetite. I continue to drench her with nutra-drench and received my order for Fastrack probios gel today so I will try that tomorrow. I also purchased a bale of alfalfa hay to tempt her and she did eat some. Won't eat soybean meal or dry cob. Really shows an interest in straight grass. The pasture is bare, but I do have an unprotected hillside that has good growth so I take her out and sit with her while she eats, shotgun at my side as we have coyotes. This am she was streching a lot and kicking at her belly so I drenched her with baking soda. I can tell by looking at her she doesn't feel well. Saturday my husband is going to help me give her a vitamin B shot, other than that I really don't know what to try. It's hard to watch an animal want to eat but can't do it, if that makes any sense. Once more I am asking you guys for your help,as I am at the point where I don't want to see her suffer and I have to do what's best for my girl. Dayna Denmark Half Ass Acres ___ This message is from the Blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info
Re: [Blackbelly] Bam Bam's living situation
Hi Michael, Any bottle baby I raise that has a problem lives in the house with me until the problem has passed. Any bottle baby that has no problem would be privileged to live in your barn arrangement. Pneumonia is probably the biggest killer of lambs. By moving a lamb indoors until they are "hitting on all cylinders" survival rates are very good. Besides it is a real pain getting up in the night to do feedings (just as well make it easier). My opinion, Mark W. Cecil and everybody else. Bam Bam is in this enclosure, in a horse barn with a steel roof but the sides are open: http://picasaweb.google.com/mwsmotorsports/MakingBottleBabies223091014AM#530 6058281107280642 and now is in a 3' circle of horse fencing with a heatlamp about 3" above his head when he stands. It has thick moving blankets over the top and partially down the sides, to help hold in heat. He can see and interact with his sibling and her girlfriends, but stays in that incubator cage, to make sure he's warm. In Northern California, it's 37. at it's lowest in the mornings, and can get to 60. in the daytime. Most nights are only down to 45. or so, since it's raining like crazy this month. Should I have him indoors? We are no really set up to do that, and also, I dont' want to separate him from his fellow lambs. I visit him a coupla times each morning, my mother in law feeds him a few times while I'm at work, and I see him a couple times in the evenings and definitely hold and hang out with him, and am now considering getting up once or twice in the night. -Michael. Perino Ranch Blackbellies. ___ This message is from the Blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info
Re: [Blackbelly] more on Blackbelly lambs can't or won't suckle
If she has a dead lamb in her it is poisoning her which would lead to the diarrhea. Did you notice any foul smell? Being active and feeding well doesn't fit with a dead retained fetus though. The oxytocin does help a ewe get her milk going. Pull her eye lid down and see if it has good color. If it is pale it could be she is severely loaded with parasites. Parasite immunity falters in ewes at lambing. If you have not wormed recently try a injectable wormer like Dectomax or a drench like cydectin. Baking soda free choice will help. Mark W. I tried to express milk but could not. Her udder is neither firm nor lumpy and it doesn't appear inflammed. She did not seem senitive to palpation of the udder and she is active and feeding well. She has diarhhea. I gave her 300,000 units of penicillin. I will have to bottle feed the lambs. Any suggestions? Thanks for your help. Jerry Mississippi - > Definitely try to express some milk. Also check her bag to make sure > it is > not unusually hard. It could be that that huge milk bag has no milk! > We > recently talked about OPP and "Hard Bag" here. This could be an > example (or > not). If the momma is rejecting the lambs then a stanchion to > restrain her > would be helpful. Just make sure the milk bag is proper. It could be > that > the momma knows that she is unable to care for these lambs. > > Mark Wintermute > > > A two year old ewe had twins night before last. She was enormous with > bulging sides and a huge bag. I watched yesterday in the pasture and > never saw the lambs suckle. I put them in the sheep barn last night > and > this morning she seems to avoid them. One of the lambs does not make > any > effort but both appear normal: they move well and follow momma. I > watched for about 1/2 hour this morning and saw no suckling. Her > udder > is MUCH larger than any of the other ewes with twins. It looks very > tight, as if it should be painful, but the ewe appears normal. As a > neophyte, I don't know what to do. Should I try to express some milk? > Should I restrain momma and try to get the lambs to suckle? > > I tried attaching a couple of photos for you to have a look, but the > moderator kicked that back. > Any suggestions will be greatly appreciated. > > Jerry > Mississippi > > ___ > This message is from the Blackbelly mailing list > Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info > > ___ > This message is from the Blackbelly mailing list > Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info ___ This message is from the Blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info ___ This message is from the Blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info
Re: [Blackbelly] lambs can't or won't suckle
Just had another idea other than the OPP/HardBag/Mastitis. Do you think it is possible she still has another lamb inside her? If she has a dead lamb inside her it would fit your description. I would get some lube and a long glove and find out. A shot of oxytocin might help her clean out as well. Mark Definitely try to express some milk. Also check her bag to make sure it is not unusually hard. It could be that that huge milk bag has no milk! We recently talked about OPP and "Hard Bag" here. This could be an example (or not). If the momma is rejecting the lambs then a stanchion to restrain her would be helpful. Just make sure the milk bag is proper. It could be that the momma knows that she is unable to care for these lambs. Mark Wintermute A two year old ewe had twins night before last. She was enormous with bulging sides and a huge bag. I watched yesterday in the pasture and never saw the lambs suckle. I put them in the sheep barn last night and this morning she seems to avoid them. One of the lambs does not make any effort but both appear normal: they move well and follow momma. I watched for about 1/2 hour this morning and saw no suckling. Her udder is MUCH larger than any of the other ewes with twins. It looks very tight, as if it should be painful, but the ewe appears normal. As a neophyte, I don't know what to do. Should I try to express some milk? Should I restrain momma and try to get the lambs to suckle? I tried attaching a couple of photos for you to have a look, but the moderator kicked that back. Any suggestions will be greatly appreciated. Jerry Mississippi ___ This message is from the Blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info ___ This message is from the Blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info ___ This message is from the Blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info
Re: [Blackbelly] lambs can't or won't suckle
Definitely try to express some milk. Also check her bag to make sure it is not unusually hard. It could be that that huge milk bag has no milk! We recently talked about OPP and "Hard Bag" here. This could be an example (or not). If the momma is rejecting the lambs then a stanchion to restrain her would be helpful. Just make sure the milk bag is proper. It could be that the momma knows that she is unable to care for these lambs. Mark Wintermute A two year old ewe had twins night before last. She was enormous with bulging sides and a huge bag. I watched yesterday in the pasture and never saw the lambs suckle. I put them in the sheep barn last night and this morning she seems to avoid them. One of the lambs does not make any effort but both appear normal: they move well and follow momma. I watched for about 1/2 hour this morning and saw no suckling. Her udder is MUCH larger than any of the other ewes with twins. It looks very tight, as if it should be painful, but the ewe appears normal. As a neophyte, I don't know what to do. Should I try to express some milk? Should I restrain momma and try to get the lambs to suckle? I tried attaching a couple of photos for you to have a look, but the moderator kicked that back. Any suggestions will be greatly appreciated. Jerry Mississippi ___ This message is from the Blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info ___ This message is from the Blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info
Re: [Blackbelly] Underdeveloped twin, (He WAS constipated)
Isn't it a great feeling to save a lamb! As far as directions I think what you wrote below pretty much covers it. The only thing I would have done different is probably closer to 12cc of vegetable oil (but results is all that matters). I'm pretty sure you meant 3 ounces of milk and electrolytes 50/50. And a couple of ounces every few hours for feedings. The probios is a good idea for a while until his GI tract is back in order. I am really happy for you Michael! Mark So, Mark was right--in that Bam Bam was seriously constipated, and I thanked him profusely already. Mark, you should post your very detailed email instructions you gave to me, on this forum, they were great! Just wanted to share the highlights: Bam bam was born Feb 12th and has never been energetic and slept a lot. Temp was dropping and only appeared to get better if I also tried to feed him--along with his mom, which, when I fed him, he never really sucked or punched the bottle. Separated on Feb 22nd to begin bottle-feeding/taming this round of lambs. Bam Bam slowly gets worse (I was not monitoring his feces, or I would have known why). Vet never asked if I did monitor his output. Start going thru all the stuff with the vet, trying to tube him for a coupla days, getting foam and rotten milk up the tube into the funnel, from his gut. Next, spend one entire day with only Sub-Q dextrose, no food at all, to "clear his GI tract". Next day, start tubing with Resorb electrolytes/glucose. spend a day doing this. Temp is anywhere from 96 to about 99.5, and he's under a heat lamp every night and most of each day. Can get 3cc down, but I am starting to really question what's going on here. all the while, he's getting a B-vit shot each day. Has no energy, either sleeps or just hangs out under the lamp. Finally get sick of this and listen to Mark, carefully, slowly pushed 3cc of veg oil, then a good 40cc of warm water into him, and viola!! A very hard cluster the diameter of a nickel comes popping out of this little 4 lb peanut of a lamb--that's pretty big for a little guy. Smashing between gloved fingers reveals it's much too firm for normal feces. It feels about like if you chewed off a piece of a tootsie roll and then felt it--pretty hard. Mark's email said to try the enema several times, and when you are successful "you will know it". I went for another round of about 40ccs and got another hard cluster, about half that size. Think about the fact these clusters were from food he had almost three days previous, --still stuck in there. Suddenly, in one second, Bam Bam is the lamb I have never known. moving around, biting the fence, licking fingers, obviously very hungry, and not as hunched and looking, on his face... well... constipated. At that point I knew the enemas had done their trick. I gave him about 3cc of milk and electrolytes, 50/50. He sucked it down decently, not vigorously, but he's never done that before (did not aspirate, don't worry) A couple hours later his temp was up to about 101.5 That evening I also gave him another 3ccs of the same mix and some Niutri-Drench, which appears to be molasses-based, and some Pro-Bios, to help his gut. After that feeding he was down to 98.8 or so. I should have taken it before feeding him. Next morning, temp is down at 96.8 again before breakfast, but he produced two softer-feeling clusters overnight, and both smelled like molasses, so we all know they are the result of eating, 12 hours earlier. That is important as well. He's getting fed a couple cc's every few hours, to see when his appetite kicks back in, and I am watching all his output like a hawk, and know what he's capable of producing. He's not out of the woods, he still needs to develop an appetite, and produce poop regularly, and get his temp up, and get some energy going, but I am thankful we did not put him down just for being listless. After all this activity, he's not a frolicking maniac, but he's licking our faces, looking for a nipple, and at least, eating, and pooping. (he has always peed ok). I just need to watch now, for constipation. Thank you again, Mr. Wintermute! _Michael, Perino Ranch Blackbellies. ___ This message is from the Blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info
Re: [Blackbelly] Are Blackbellies easy to sell?
The link below will give you an idea of the meat lamb market in Missouri. Prices are about as good as they are going to get in February. The rest of the year the prices are more depressed for market lambs. I just sold 76 lambs at 56# avg. weight for $1.2272/pound ($68.72 each). I get 89% of the sale price ($61.16/56# lamb) the other 11% goes towards commission, lamb checkoff and sheep promotion. These were 8 month old lambs. The question at hand is can you feed them cheap enough to make money off of them. Selling breeding stock for profit depends if Disney will come out with a Blackbelly sheep movie (my opinion). http://www.ams.usda.gov/AMSv1.0/ams.fetchTemplateData.do?template=TemplateN&; navID=MarketNewsAndTransportationData&leftNav=MarketNewsAndTransportationDat a&page=MOSheep Mark Wintermute My husband is wondering how easy are these sheep to sell? I believed going into this, that through the consortium, I wouldn't have a hard time selling my lamb crops? What can you folks share with us about this topic? We would love to hear from you. Jack is of a mind that we may have chosen the wrong breed of sheep to diversify our farm...mainly due to the cost of necessary fencing and a lack of markets for them. I am in love with them and want to stay with them...so please help me out folks. Our experience is in the cattle markets... Thanks, Shawna and Jack Gulick Gulick Farms Fair Grove, MO ___ ___ This message is from the Blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info
Re: [Blackbelly] Underdeveloped twin, please help
I always use hay in a box or crate for the bedding of the bottle babies. Their rumen really doesn't get developed enough to do much until they are 30 days old or so. But the baby will nibble and consume small amounts of hay, pellets, grain, grass and such which stimulates the rumen to develop. So the more a lamb consumes the sooner he is ready physically to be weaned. For right now milk replacer and protection from the cold and pneumonia is most important. My rule of thumb for weaning is the lamb needs to weigh at least 25 pounds and be readily consuming hay/grass/grain and be beyond 30 days old (the older the better). My opinion, Mark I had a twin born early. As I noted before we lost the other lamb and the momma but as I have never dealt with an early baby I would like to also have a question answered. She, Blessing, is slowly starting to eat more and more of her bottle but when as a preemie should we offer her hay, feed, etc. Not sure and the weather has gone crazy here in OK so we are not taking her out much. oj in ok Oneta and The Gang ___ This message is from the Blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info
Re: [Blackbelly] Underdeveloped twin, please help
Hi Michael, The lamb may be doomed but I have saved some in the past like this. I believe you are working on the wrong end of the lamb. Take a syringe (no needle) with warm water and insert it in the anus and fill the lamb up until water starts coming out when you pull the syringe out (enema). After the water has cleared out do it again. The lamb will likely pass some very hard feces that has him plugged up. Just keep doing the warm water treatment until you feel you are not getting any more results. Remember you are dealing with a baby so be easy with the syringe water pressure! Once the very hard feces is out you are back to trying/hoping the lamb will eat. If he starts eating well you will probably save him. Good Luck, Mark Wintermute Had a ewe with one of her twins half the weight of the other. At 2 weeks, he's 4.5lbs and she is 8lbs. His name is Bam Bam. here he is on his birthday, you can see the size difference: http://picasaweb.google.com/mwsmotorsports/February_LambS213091011AM#5302876 349358364882 Noticed after a few days, he was always listless, hunched, not frolicking, and I started to bottle-feed him some pasteurized goat's milk from the store, to supplement what he was getting from his mom. His mom would feed both sibs, but Bam Bam seemed never to be getting more energy. After supplementing her feeding, he seemed to rally a bit, At this point, it was time for us to separate the lambs, since we were planning to bottle-feed them from here on out, anyway. He again became more listless and no prancing around. He has never been a bottle-puncher and always acts like he is full. trying to be patient with him, you're lucky to get 1oz in in 10 minutes. The other 8-10 lb lambs, of course, can kill 10oz in a feeding. His temp was about 100.3 in the middle of the day. Being new to sheep, I took him in to the local livestock vet who is also a sheep breeder. He suggested tubing him, and taught me how, and we got 4oz in him the first time. I was very encouraged. But, each time thereafter, I'd get a bit in, and then when adjusting the tube a bit, the syringe/funnel (no plunger in syringe) would fill back up with 20cc of milk or so, with a rancid smell. In the mornings, even in an enclosure with a heat lamp, his temp could be as low as 95.5. Usually 97.5 or so. Two days of trying to tube always resulted in the rancid milk and in one case, vomiting. Took him in this morning and the doc tried to tube him himself. Same result, he said the reticulum was holding the milk till it was going bad, which is why he gets no nutrients. He credited the smell with the milk being spoiled and mixed with mucous. I thought it was bile but he said sheep don't have bile in their reticulum. His diagnosis: the little ram is not fully passing the milk on thru his digestive tract. He has "some" feces and urine, but not enough. His prescription: Today has been sub-Q dextrose only 4x a day, and one vit-B shot (1/2 cc) per day. Try to get any remaining milk thru his system. Tomorrow will be: electrolytes via tube, and vit-B. Towards the end of the day, if I can mix in a bit of milk, to add to the tube, I will try. The point is to try to get his temp up and get him digesting. My question: is he just mal-formed and doomed, or has anyone seen a case where he could be less developed than his sister and be nursed along until his digestive tract catches on? Michael. Perino Ranch Blackbellies. ___ ___ This message is from the Blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info
Re: [Blackbelly] Sick Ewe - update and 2 questions
We had a miracle baby born last year. After much effort to save the first time momma ewe she was dying and could not be saved. We did a "C" section and took the twin lambs out of her. The first lamb's lungs were not developed enough for it to breath and slowly passed away. The second lamb was able to breathe but just barely. The second lamb was so small it barely covered my two outstretched hands. It was so premature its eyes were sealed shut and it would take 10 days before he could open them. The vet said he could not be saved but I am stubborn. Everyone in the family held that lamb and even slept with that lamb for two weeks. Very frequent small meals of colostrums and then colostrums/milk replacer then eventually straight milk replacer. We started with a syringe dribbling meals into his mouth and worked our way up to nipples. This lamb learned how to negotiate our house totally blind only using his hearing. I believe that all the holding and talking to that baby and its will to live was the secret. The baby was never allowed a chance to get cold or depressed/stressed. There is a magic that takes place when a lamb is sleeping on your chest content with the world. This baby is a ram in my ram pen today and is still a sweetheart to be around. Mark Wintermute I went to the barn to feed and our ewe with the preclampsia had had twins. One was dead and the other weak but alert. We milked as much colostrium that we could and got it down the baby. Momma does not seem to be milking but we believe the babies were a week or two early. We have the baby in the house and giving her a bottle. She is getting more active but so very tiny. The ewe still seems the same. She is drinking and eating some but still not her normal self. How long should it take for to act more herself now that she has lambed. Also, what is a must for a early lamb. My sister has named her Blessing so we have to do all we can. Thanks for all your input. I always learn something new and helpful. Oneta and The Gang www.johnsonquarterhorses.com Don't tell GOD what to do, just report for duty! ___ This message is from the Blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info
Re: [Blackbelly] Sick Ewe
Just give the highest energy food you have (alfalfa, grain ...) and pray. Molasses in the water and grain can help. Is she close to delivery? Hopefully you will have lambs soon. If she manages to deliver the lambs keep the food going to her! Another situation where bottle babies might be the best outcome. She is in a race to deliver her babies. Mark I have had a ewe not feeling well and I have had her up in the barn. Got her to the vet this morning and was told she has preclamsia. He called it the animal term and when I asked him what that was he said it is like what women get when they are pregnant. He said sheep and goats that are prone to multi births can get it and have a low rate of survival. He gave her some IV meds, sent home some meds to get her energy up and said the big thing is to keep her eating anything she wants. Has anyone else heard or dealt with this. This is her first lambing and he said she may never do this again and may do it everytime it is different with each ewe. Would appreciate any and all info. Thanks OJ in OK Oneta and The Gang www.johnsonquarterhorses.com Don't tell GOD what to do, just report for duty! ___ This message is from the Blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info
[Blackbelly] Treating a Poked Out Eye?
OK... I have raised 1100+ sheep and my lambing starts in March where I expect another 300 lambs to be born. I have doctored many many situations but have never had to deal with a poked out eye! I have a ram that has ruined his left eye (somehow). I have been treating it with anti-biotics (LA-200) and he acts as if his condition is no big deal. What is left of his eye just kind of lays around inside the socket. Occassionally what is left of his eye hangs a little outside of his socket (yuck). He opens his eyelid just like normal but I am worried that hay and debris will get into the eye since he has no clue to blink! The best I can tell there is no infection. Is he going to be OK? Do I need to superglue his eyelid shut? Off course this is one of my scrapie resistant codon 171 RR rams! What do you think Cecil? Stumped, Mark Wintermute ___ This message is from the Blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info
Re: [Blackbelly] ADVICE NEEDED
If the Safeguard isn't effective then I agree why bother using it. But Safeguard is still effective on many populations of parasites (those that have not developed resistance). The nice thing about Safeguard is it is much safer as the name implies on a weak animal. I know of no other wormer safer to use on an infirm animal. I really like cydectin drench and use it selectively on problem sheep. But I have found that the cydectin drench given to a very weak sheep seems to just speed along death. I have no problem using cydectin drench in a sheep after it has all its feet "out-of-the-grave". Mark Just my 2 cents on wormers . I have found safeguard to be as effective as WATER in worming sheep (in other words NOT!). I would suggest, if that is the problem with Sally, that you use Cydectin drench instead of safeguard. I do agree that an injectable is in order and switching between 2 different kinds should be done every 2 weeks until the problem is solved. Moving her to a NEW pasture that has not been grazed by sheep would be ideal. Onalee Hi Dayna, I can provide some ideas but no guarantees. It sounds like your Sally is under a continual parasite load from her environment. Two weeks after worming is about the time most parasites are beginning to be active in a re-infected sheep. Most sheep would not show symptoms simply because they are in better condition. Your Sally being in frail condition just deteriates quickly. So I would give her a injectable wormer like the Dectomax. The Dectomax lasts in theory 8 weeks against parasites. In reality the Dectomax does last much longer but its effectiveness tapers off considerably after three weeks. Knowing that the Dectomax will not be a perfect solution I would provide a Safeguard drench (different family of wormer) every other week. This should control the parasites and a fecal test by your vet to prove she is free of parasites should be done. Coccidiosis could also be problematic and the fecal test would show if it is present. Follow the directions for "Corid" in the drinking water if they are present. Now that Sally is free of parasites address her environment and nutrition. Get her away from old pastures ASAP. Feed her the best hay and feed possible and within reason all she can eat. The remaining concern is if she is pregnant. If she is as frail as it sounds and pregnant neither the fetus or mother will likely survive. If she does have the lamb and it lives I would immediately turn it into a bottle baby. The focus on Sally is to build her back up into full condition before allowing any new opportunity for parasites (or ram) to act on her. There are other possibilities for Sally's condition such as OPP, Johnes disease, old age, tumors,... so everything above could be of no benefit. And as you mentioned "putting her down" might be the most humane action taken. Such a decision is difficult and requires a total measure of Sally's remaining potential to you. Wishing you luck, Mark Subject: [Blackbelly] ADVICE NEEDED need some help from the group. A few months ago I told everyone about my old ewe Sally who started to refuse to eat. I wormed her with Levasole and she showed great improvement about a day later and began to act like her old self. Appetite good, more active, etc. Then about 2 weeks later she started to backslide. I began drenching her with sheep nutri-drench 1 ounce twice a day. Not much improvement so I gave her the powdered garlic/ molasses drench I posted on the list. Once again she showed great improvement the next day and had a great appetite. Two weeks later she backslides again. So bad this time my husband asked me if I wanted him to put her down. I wasn't ready to give up so I purchased Ivomec sheep drench and gave her 10 cc's.Next day she once again showed great improvement, ate cob and hay and whatever else I could sneak to her. Weight started coming back and all was good for two weeks. This morning she is back to refusing her food. I am at a loss here as to what is going on. Doesn't make sense to me that the wormer would help if she DIDN'T have parasites. Could it be I am under-drenching? Sally weighs 60 lbs. She is a black hawaiian so it's not as easy to judge her gum color but her inner eye isn't super pink, somewhere in the mid range I think. Anyway I am truly at a loss here on what to try next so any suggestions would really help. Dayna Denmark Half Ass Acres ___ This message is from the Blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info
Re: [Blackbelly] lamb died right after birth
I agree with Cecil, delivery should have been faster. Most of my sheep deliver their lambs without my presence. But if I am around and they go into labor I assist (unless my help is very obviously not needed). They usually do not like my being there but to bad! When I see hooves I move in and pull the lamb gently out and downward. Then I clean the nose off well and leave as quickly as possible. If there is are twins/triplets they should be coming out within 30 minutes or so. Usually the twins/triplets do not need help once the first lamb has been born. There are always exceptions. There are also going to be lambs that just are not going to survive. For example, if your lamb was very small it might have been pre-mature with underdeveloped lungs. If you have a ewe laying down straining for any length of time after the water bag has broken it is time to reach into the ewe and help the lamb out. This is where it gets complicated: Is it a breach, is that a nose, is that a tail, do these two hooves go to the same lamb, I have a head but where are the legs??? Mark If the lamb was struggling in the birth canal for an hour that is too long. Assistance was required. My ewes will have triplets in less than 30 minutes. I would think the lamb died from stress/exhaustion. Sorry. Cecil in OKla blueberryfarm wrote: > I watched a young ewe give birth to her first lamb a couple of days ago. > It took her over an hour. To my inexperienced eye, everything seemed to > go OK: ewe pushing hard, head first birth, momma licking all the mucus > from her lamb, lamb struggling to get up, but then less and less > struggling and finally death. The little ewe lived about 45 minutes > after birth and never made it to her feet. Is there something I > could/should have done? Did I miss some clue? Should I have lifted her > to her feet? I watched the whole affair from about 100 feet with > binoculars. Relative with my experience with dogs, it all seemed quite > normal. All my other lambs have been born without complications and out > of my sight. > > I would appreciate any suggestions. > > Jerry > Pearl River County in south Mississippi ___ This message is from the Blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info
Re: [Blackbelly] ADVICE NEEDED
Hi Dayna, I can provide some ideas but no guarantees. It sounds like your Sally is under a continual parasite load from her environment. Two weeks after worming is about the time most parasites are beginning to be active in a re-infected sheep. Most sheep would not show symptoms simply because they are in better condition. Your Sally being in frail condition just deteriates quickly. So I would give her a injectable wormer like the Dectomax. The Dectomax lasts in theory 8 weeks against parasites. In reality the Dectomax does last much longer but its effectiveness tapers off considerably after three weeks. Knowing that the Dectomax will not be a perfect solution I would provide a Safeguard drench (different family of wormer) every other week. This should control the parasites and a fecal test by your vet to prove she is free of parasites should be done. Coccidiosis could also be problematic and the fecal test would show if it is present. Follow the directions for "Corid" in the drinking water if they are present. Now that Sally is free of parasites address her environment and nutrition. Get her away from old pastures ASAP. Feed her the best hay and feed possible and within reason all she can eat. The remaining concern is if she is pregnant. If she is as frail as it sounds and pregnant neither the fetus or mother will likely survive. If she does have the lamb and it lives I would immediately turn it into a bottle baby. The focus on Sally is to build her back up into full condition before allowing any new opportunity for parasites (or ram) to act on her. There are other possibilities for Sally's condition such as OPP, Johnes disease, old age, tumors,... so everything above could be of no benefit. And as you mentioned "putting her down" might be the most humane action taken. Such a decision is difficult and requires a total measure of Sally's remaining potential to you. Wishing you luck, Mark Subject: [Blackbelly] ADVICE NEEDED need some help from the group. A few months ago I told everyone about my old ewe Sally who started to refuse to eat. I wormed her with Levasole and she showed great improvement about a day later and began to act like her old self. Appetite good, more active, etc. Then about 2 weeks later she started to backslide. I began drenching her with sheep nutri-drench 1 ounce twice a day. Not much improvement so I gave her the powdered garlic/ molasses drench I posted on the list. Once again she showed great improvement the next day and had a great appetite. Two weeks later she backslides again. So bad this time my husband asked me if I wanted him to put her down. I wasn't ready to give up so I purchased Ivomec sheep drench and gave her 10 cc's.Next day she once again showed great improvement, ate cob and hay and whatever else I could sneak to her. Weight started coming back and all was good for two weeks. This morning she is back to refusing her food. I am at a loss here as to what is going on. Doesn't make sense to me that the wormer would help if she DIDN'T have parasites. Could it be I am under-drenching? Sally weighs 60 lbs. She is a black hawaiian so it's not as easy to judge her gum color but her inner eye isn't super pink, somewhere in the mid range I think. Anyway I am truly at a loss here on what to try next so any suggestions would really help. Dayna Denmark Half Ass Acres ___ This message is from the Blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info
Re: [Blackbelly] milking?
Hi Cecil: Your advice was spot on as well! I liked the oxytocin suggestion! Mark Mark: Thanks for elaborating. Cecil in OKla The Wintermutes wrote: > Hello Michael, > > First thing I would do is sit the ewe on her butt and press the udder with > my entire hand on the problem side. Look and see if the teat noticeably > fills with milk. Assuming it does enlarge look for the wax plug at the teat > opening. The plug may only look like a few hairs but pull it out much like > you would a splinter. Once the wax plug is out try to get some milk to come > out like you did previously. Sometimes the lambs are just too small and > weak to get the plug out on their own. If the other teat is working the > lambs will just give up on the plugged teat. Two lambs fighting over one > teat is going to leave the smaller weaker lamb hungry. > > I hope the above worked for you... The second thing I would feel the entire > bag which should be pliable. It might be helpful to feel a different ewe's > udder that you know is OK first for a reference. If the problem ewe's bag > is very firm to almost hard it is likely you are dealing with mastitis. > Sometimes mastitis is very painful to the ewe. The ewe will stomp her leg > on the affected side to prevent the lamb from suckling. Other times the > mastitis leaves the udder numb and appears to not bother the ewe at all. > Mastitis can affect just one or both sides of the udder at the same time. > If you notice one side of a udder is always full... check it to see if it is > hard with mastitis not providing any milk. If it is mastitis there are > inter-mammary antibiotic treatments available to help stop infection. This > may help save the ewe provided the other side of the udder is unaffected. A > ewe can raise lambs on only one teat but obviously two teats are better. IF > it is mastitis I would raise the lambs as bottle babies. OPP is a virus > that sheep get that has no cure. One of the symptoms of OPP is mastitis or > what is called "Hard Bag". If the lambs do not suckle the OPP positive > mother they can be raised free of OPP on a bottle. > > Good Luck, > > Mark Wintermute > > > > My Ewes udders are no bigger or wide than a man's last digit on the > little finger. Her bag felt swollen and very full of liquid. We could > not get a drop, and tried for several minutes. We tried imitating the > pushing movement the lambs to to get them to let down, etc. > > Any advice? > > _Michael > > ___ This message is from the Blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info
Re: [Blackbelly] milking?
OPP = Ovine Progressice Pneumonia. Here is a good site to read up on OPP: http://www.extension.umn.edu/distribution/livestocksystems/DI5750.html Mark What does "OPP" stand for? Thank you! Onalee Hello Michael, First thing I would do is sit the ewe on her butt and press the udder with my entire hand on the problem side. Look and see if the teat noticeably fills with milk. Assuming it does enlarge look for the wax plug at the teat opening. The plug may only look like a few hairs but pull it out much like you would a splinter. Once the wax plug is out try to get some milk to come out like you did previously. Sometimes the lambs are just too small and weak to get the plug out on their own. If the other teat is working the lambs will just give up on the plugged teat. Two lambs fighting over one teat is going to leave the smaller weaker lamb hungry. I hope the above worked for you... The second thing I would feel the entire bag which should be pliable. It might be helpful to feel a different ewe's udder that you know is OK first for a reference. If the problem ewe's bag is very firm to almost hard it is likely you are dealing with mastitis. Sometimes mastitis is very painful to the ewe. The ewe will stomp her leg on the affected side to prevent the lamb from suckling. Other times the mastitis leaves the udder numb and appears to not bother the ewe at all. Mastitis can affect just one or both sides of the udder at the same time. If you notice one side of a udder is always full... check it to see if it is hard with mastitis not providing any milk. If it is mastitis there are inter-mammary antibiotic treatments available to help stop infection. This may help save the ewe provided the other side of the udder is unaffected. A ewe can raise lambs on only one teat but obviously two teats are better. IF it is mastitis I would raise the lambs as bottle babies. OPP is a virus that sheep get that has no cure. One of the symptoms of OPP is mastitis or what is called "Hard Bag". If the lambs do not suckle the OPP positive mother they can be raised free of OPP on a bottle. Good Luck, Mark Wintermute trying to milk my American blackbelly ewe with 2-day olds, and having no luck. One lamb is very small, and we are thinking, needs supplemental feeding. I'm new to sheep, but got to practice on a goat with smallish udders yesterday and had plenty of luck milking her. My Ewes udders are no bigger or wide than a man's last digit on the little finger. Her bag felt swollen and very full of liquid. We could not get a drop, and tried for several minutes. We tried imitating the pushing movement the lambs to to get them to let down, etc. Any advice? _Michael ___ This message is from the Blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info
Re: [Blackbelly] milking?
Hello Michael, First thing I would do is sit the ewe on her butt and press the udder with my entire hand on the problem side. Look and see if the teat noticeably fills with milk. Assuming it does enlarge look for the wax plug at the teat opening. The plug may only look like a few hairs but pull it out much like you would a splinter. Once the wax plug is out try to get some milk to come out like you did previously. Sometimes the lambs are just too small and weak to get the plug out on their own. If the other teat is working the lambs will just give up on the plugged teat. Two lambs fighting over one teat is going to leave the smaller weaker lamb hungry. I hope the above worked for you... The second thing I would feel the entire bag which should be pliable. It might be helpful to feel a different ewe's udder that you know is OK first for a reference. If the problem ewe's bag is very firm to almost hard it is likely you are dealing with mastitis. Sometimes mastitis is very painful to the ewe. The ewe will stomp her leg on the affected side to prevent the lamb from suckling. Other times the mastitis leaves the udder numb and appears to not bother the ewe at all. Mastitis can affect just one or both sides of the udder at the same time. If you notice one side of a udder is always full... check it to see if it is hard with mastitis not providing any milk. If it is mastitis there are inter-mammary antibiotic treatments available to help stop infection. This may help save the ewe provided the other side of the udder is unaffected. A ewe can raise lambs on only one teat but obviously two teats are better. IF it is mastitis I would raise the lambs as bottle babies. OPP is a virus that sheep get that has no cure. One of the symptoms of OPP is mastitis or what is called "Hard Bag". If the lambs do not suckle the OPP positive mother they can be raised free of OPP on a bottle. Good Luck, Mark Wintermute trying to milk my American blackbelly ewe with 2-day olds, and having no luck. One lamb is very small, and we are thinking, needs supplemental feeding. I'm new to sheep, but got to practice on a goat with smallish udders yesterday and had plenty of luck milking her. My Ewes udders are no bigger or wide than a man's last digit on the little finger. Her bag felt swollen and very full of liquid. We could not get a drop, and tried for several minutes. We tried imitating the pushing movement the lambs to to get them to let down, etc. Any advice? _Michael ___ This message is from the Blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info
Re: [Blackbelly] Albinism~
I have had similar crosses in my sheep. What makes you suspect albinism over just a white sheep? All of my polypay/Barbados blackbelly were white. Eye color can be tricky in a young lamb. If the eyes are blue I am guessing you might truly have an albino. Mark W. Subject: [Blackbelly] Albinism~ Hello good list~I have a lamb (ram and a twin with one sister) that I THINK may be an albino. I have been trying to Google and find out all I can about Albinism and have not had much luck finding much of any useful information on Albinism of any kind~let alone sheep. My sheep are predominantly Black Belly but I have one purebred Polypay ewe and have several crossbreeds between her offspring and herself with the Black Belly sheep. This lamb is from a half BB and Polypay breeding mother and a Black Belly/Poly cross ram. Have any of you had any experience with or knowledge of albinism? I thought that with a true albino the eyes have to be pink/red. I am having a hard time seeing what color this boy`s eyes truly are as he is skittish with a skittish mother and he is only 2 and a half weeks old so I didn`t want to upset momma or babes any more than absolutely necessary. I THINK his eyes are blue but I am not positive... Thank you in advance~and I am going to get updated pics taken soon for any interested. Julie Pizzolato in North Idaho ___ ___ This message is from the Blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info
Re: [Blackbelly] Colostrum question
Here is what I remember: Colostrum is not the same as milk. Colostrum has antibodies which transfer from the ewe to the lamb to basically immunize against disease and illness. The antibodies in the ewes colostrum will quickly diminish to zero by around 24 hours after delivery. The lamb may operate on a "different clock". Much is determined on "when" the lambs gut starts that clock. The lambs "clock" can be delayed for reasons such as if it didn't suckle (was abandoned) or was possibly pre-mature or cold. Keep in mind this "delay" of the lambs colostrums clock won't be very long. Rule of thumb is feed colostrums ASAP and frequently to any "found" lamb due to uncertainty of how many hours old it may be. Colostrum is still an energy/nutrient source after 24 hours even if the antibodies are no longer being absorbed. Much depends on the size and condition of the lamb. The smaller and weaker the lamb the more likely I would go beyond 24 hours (my suggested three days) with the colostrums. It is an artform that requires reading the situation. If it is a large lamb that ate several significant colostrums meals it is going to want "real" milk before 24 hours is up! In summary, as soon as possible try to get colostrums into the lamb even if it is stubborn and doesn't want to take that bottle. Don't give up. I cannot reference where I learned the above information it has just been committed to old brain cells and lots of lambs. The link below does provide good information. http://www.extension.iastate.edu/Publications/PM989X12.pdf Mark Subject: Re: [Blackbelly] Colostrum question Colostrum is not supposed to be any help after 24 hours. The stomach lining is not supposed to absorb the nutrients after 24hours.. Cecil in OKla The Wintermutes wrote: > I have had lambs survive while only receiving a little to no colostrums in > the first three days. But... they do much better when they get all their > belly can handle in those first three days. Survival probably depends on > the size and vitality of the lamb. With an attentive two legger mamma, no > hypothermia and such, I would say it has a good shot at survival. If the > lamb is vigorously eating I would bet you have won the battle. > > Mark Wintermute > > Subject: [Blackbelly] Colostrum question > >> Hello I have a question perhaps someone else will have an answer for. I >> found a twin lamb that had been left by mom perhaps 10 hours withought >> colostrum. It then drank 4 oz. and will be eating more. Will this lamb have > >> a chance to make it or do you think it was to late? I never thought to look > >> in another shed when I found her with a single since she had a single last >> year. Nancy ___ This message is from the Blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info
Re: [Blackbelly] Colostrum question
I have had lambs survive while only receiving a little to no colostrums in the first three days. But... they do much better when they get all their belly can handle in those first three days. Survival probably depends on the size and vitality of the lamb. With an attentive two legger mamma, no hypothermia and such, I would say it has a good shot at survival. If the lamb is vigorously eating I would bet you have won the battle. Mark Wintermute Subject: [Blackbelly] Colostrum question >Hello I have a question perhaps someone else will have an answer for. I >found a twin lamb that had been left by mom perhaps 10 hours withought >colostrum. It then drank 4 oz. and will be eating more. Will this lamb have >a chance to make it or do you think it was to late? I never thought to look >in another shed when I found her with a single since she had a single last >year. Nancy ___ This message is from the Blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info
Re: [Blackbelly] Blackbelly Digest, Vol 4, Issue 136
Nancy, The next thing that will happen is that humans will be fined for their "emissions". Sharon -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Nancy & Tom Richardson Sent: Monday, December 01, 2008 5:25 PM To: blackbelly@lists.blackbellysheep.info Subject: Re: [Blackbelly] Blackbelly Digest, Vol 4, Issue 136 Just heard this on the radio on a program called ag talk. They are now trying to impliment a "permit: fee for every animal you own for the "Green house " gas it emits. I believe every dairy cow is $85 per year, beef cow i think they said $70 and pigs 60. They didn't mention sheep. but you know they will. They are taking coments at the epa level. This is to help green house emissions controled by them even though they are suppose to only do cars factories etc. Someone else might want to check into this one. To get all the facts but it is scary. Couldn't afford a sheep permit. They aren't worth that much more. Nancy - Original Message - From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Monday, December 01, 2008 5:01 PM Subject: Blackbelly Digest, Vol 4, Issue 136 > Send Blackbelly mailing list submissions to > blackbelly@lists.blackbellysheep.info > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://lists.blackbellysheep.info/listinfo.cgi/blackbelly-blackbellysheep.in fo > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > You can reach the person managing the list at > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Blackbelly digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. USDA Memo Mandates NAIS Premises Registration (o johnson) > > > -- > > Message: 1 > Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 09:07:14 -0800 (PST) > From: o johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: [Blackbelly] USDA Memo Mandates NAIS Premises Registration > To: blackbelly@lists.blackbellysheep.info > Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > > > I just got this today. Wanted to pass it along. > > Oneta and The Gang > www.johnsonquarterhorses.com ? Don't tell GOD what to do, just report > for duty! > > > --- On Mon, 12/1/08, Liberty Ark Coalition <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> From: Liberty Ark Coalition <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> Subject: USDA Memo Mandates NAIS Premises Registration >> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> Date: Monday, December 1, 2008, 10:18 AM >> Dear Oneta >> >> >> >> For immediate release: >> For more information, contact: >> >> December 1, 2008 >>Karin Bergener at 330-298-0065 >> >> >> Judith McGeary at 512-243-9404 >> >> >> >> USDA Memo Mandates NAIS Premises Registration >> But Agency and Big Ag Still Deny Their Plans >> >> As part of the USDA?s ongoing pattern of misleading >> tactics, the agency and industry organizations are backing >> away from an internal USDA memo that outlines how to force >> registration of real estate holding livestock, horses, or >> poultry under USDA?s National Animal Identification System >> (NAIS). The USDA memo, issued on September 22, 2008, >> dictates the procedure by which state agencies shall >> register animal owners? properties despite the owners? >> objections, if the owners refuse to voluntarily register. >> >> ?The memo not only calls for mandatory registrations, but >> for branding individuals as ?dissenters,?? notes Col. >> (Ret.) Randy Givens, a founder of the Liberty Ark Coalition >> (LAC), an alliance formed to fight NAIS. ?The USDA?s >> document states that people who refuse to ?voluntarily? >> register their property will not only be involuntarily >> assigned a registration number, but will also be assigned a >> special code that designates their refusal to >> ?volunteer.?? >> >> Under NAIS, the premises registrations are gathered into a >> massive national database. Individual animals will each be >> tagged, using mostly microchip devices, and animal owners, >> even those with pets, will have to report to the government >> whenever they buy or sell animals, or animals die, or they >> take the animal off their property for events such as trail >> rides or shows. Most independent farmers and pet owners of >> livestock or horses have objected to the extensive costs and >> government intrusion of the system. Industrial agriculture >> operations, which will be able to avoid individual tagging >> by using group identification, support NAIS. >> >> USDA?s 2005 plan for NAIS called for it to become >> mandatory by 2009. However, in response to widespread >> protests by animal owners, USDA announced in 2007 that the >> program would be "voluntary at the federal level." >> That change in strategy moved implementation of the >> mandatory NAIS down to the states, allowing USDA to disclaim >> responsibility. Since then, many states have been using >> federal guidelines and funding, und
Re: [Blackbelly] Question about old age behavior in sheep
Hi Dayna, I have had some ewes that I could not save. But... there also have been some that have come back from the dead. First thing I do is look at the mouth. Is there any injury or missing teeth? If their mouth is hurt they will not eat. You might need to drain an abcess or pull a tooth. A pain killer might be needed. A soft feed such as old fashioned oatmeal (dry) will eagerly be eaten. A quarter of a pound of soybean meal morning and night will boost energy. If the hay is being ignored try cutting and bagging some grass with a lawn mower. Just make sure you spread it out so it doesn't mold. Make sure the ewe is eating something other than just grains! Although it is probably too late in the season green tree leaves are hard for sheep to turn down. If the ewe is in really poor condition you may have to provide high energy feed and shelter throughout the winter. Check the ewes temperature (102 is normal). If there is a fever then choose an antibiotic. Try to determine what kind of infection you are dealing with so the best antibiotic is chosen for the task. Is the rumen working? Probiotics certaintly help! Baking soda either dry free choise or mixed into water and drenched can also help. An ounce or two of Pepto Bismol can also do wonders (may have to repeat every 12 hours or so). Make sure there is lots of fresh water as convenient as possible. You may need to drench water to keep her hydrated. If something doesn't work try something else, good luck! Mark Wintermute Beth, I am in southern Oregon. Cold mornings but no rain yet. The doggy blanket is a great idea as my Sally, who was always such a fatty is now skin and bones. Tried the sweet feed. For awhile it worked. She went from pushing it around to not coming to eat at all. I am giving her the probiotic powder with her salt..this I have seen her eat. Hay same thing..she was eating a little, now she doesn't join the others to eat. Last few days every time I checked on her she was laying down in her pen by herself. It's almost as if she has given up. She has always been my most social sheep, likes people in fact. Feisty too. Hates dogs and will fight them off. The hardest part is to see her so listless. And she is the alpha sheep, which has made the others act kind of lost without their leader. Dayna Denmark Half Ass Acres ___ This message is from the Blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info
[Blackbelly] Urinary Calculi
I do not know if this will be helpful after urinary calculi has developed. I prevent urinary calculi by feeding plain salt and making plenty of water available. Where salt goes water soon follows. The males need to urinate frequently to flush the residue from high protein feeds that build the stones that plug up the urinary tract. Mark Wintermute I have a more serious question regarding urinary calculi. Our boys went wild 3 wks after we opened the pen for pasture grazing. Now they are un-catchable and we don't have a good pen setup they won't dash out of before we can close the gate. If chased too much they will literally leap the 5 ft. fences and be gone. The Vet suggested we just shoot him. Is there anything that can be put in their feed to help this guy since we can't get our hands on him? I've looked at archive articles on what to suppliment to prevent this, but is there anything an be given after the fact? Georgette Atwood NorCal ___ This message is from the Blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info
Re: [Blackbelly] Ram w/swolen hock joints
Hi Oneta, I do not know if what I have to say applies to your situation. I had a lamb that had its hock joint torn open (I assume a dog bite) to the point you could see bone. I don't remember giving it LA-200 but might have done that in the beginning. What saved the little guy was flushing the wound with hydrogen peroxide daily and then filling the wound with penicillin G procaine as a dressing. I used a syringe without the needle and would pump the hydrogen peroxide into the wound inflating the leg. Then I would work the infected puss out and repeat the procedure. When the hydrogen peroxide came out clean I would put in the penicillin and leave it. The lamb was nicknamed 3-legger and was nearly impossible to catch! 3-legger actually became a 4-legger again and you couldn't tell he had ever been hurt. A word of caution on LA-200. I have had serious problems using LA-200 for long term treatment. I use LA-200 for initial antibiotic treatment routinely for the first two days. I then back off and see if the lamb can do without it. If the LA-200 isn't effective I use the penicillin. At three weeks I would definitely not be giving any pain killer. Many pain killers lower the immune system allowing infection to either linger or grow. If he starts eating normal stop the vitamin B shots. I like the probios idea. I know nothing about absorbine. If possible get him to walk and work the leg. I have found injured and sick rams start feeling "much better" when they get to run with some ewes. It may be that it is just going to take more time before the hock will look normal again. Hope I helped, Mark Wintermute Subject: [Blackbelly] Ram w/swolen hock joints I have a question regarding my ram that has been sick. It started from what is assumed being bit by a dog he backed off from his girls. He has been to the vet and found he had an infection and very low blood count which led to his stiffness and bloody nose. We have gone almost 3 wks w/out a nose bleed. (knock on wood) and he is gaining wgt. I am still giving him vit b shots every 3 days, probious to keep his stomach working every 3 days, a shot for pain apx 3 to 4 days, and I have him on a round of la 200. I have also rubbed his hocks down w/absorbine to see if it will help. He seems to not be as stiff but his hocks are still swollen. What has anyone seen or done to help w/swollen hocks that were a result of infection. The vet thought he would be dead the first week I took him in but the little guy is getting better and even has gotten to be turned out for a little to graze. Would appreciate any idvice. Oneta in OK Oneta and The Gang www.johnsonquarterhorses.com Don't tell GOD what to do, just report for duty! ___ This message is from the Blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info
Re: [Blackbelly] mastitis
Ewes can get mastitis any number of ways. The fact your ewe survived this mastitis is amazing. The most common mastitis has a ewe showing a very nice full bag that is actually producing very little if any milk (and is usually hard to the touch). As far as culling you have to decide if the ewe is naturally susceptible to mastitis or just had bad luck. If you see it happening in a family line then by all means cull. If the ewe is one of your barnyard Allstar ewes that out performs all the others it is a harder decision. I raised an "Allstar" ewe that had the bad luck of getting mastitis on her third lambing. She lost half her udder and has since raised twins and is raising two of the three lambs she had this year (triplets, third lamb is a bottle baby). I have seen many ewes raise twins with only half a bag working but they were exceptional mothers. Most ewes either die from mastitis or the entire udder is ruined. It is usually a real bad sign if the udder is too painful for the mother to allow the lambs to milk. In summary, it needs to be a really special ewe not to cull. It is very labor intensive to treat mastitis and treatment usually fails. Bottle babies are also labor intensive. You can buy a lamb for less money than it takes to raise a lamb on milk replacer. It sounds like your ewe tried to wean her big baby and it didn't like the idea! Mark Wintermute Thanks, Mark. Mastitis is the only problem I'd ever heard of involving milk production and I suspected it, but never found any swelling, injury, or lumps. In reading this site: http://www.sheepandgoat.com/articles/mastitis.html I'm seeing that infection even can come from unclean bedding. I also see that you need to cull sheep with this trouble. So my conclusion is, stick with Blackbellies and forget the Great American breed! If it was a bummer lamb injury, it was the ewe's own lamb because that lamb was so big despite being only a couple of months old. All the other lambs were younger and feeding well with their own moms. Rick Krach Auburn, California (530) 889-1488 ___ This message is from the Blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info
Re: [Blackbelly] soybean mill
I buy dried distillery grains from a local ethanol plant. It is working better than soybean meal for my sheep and is cheaper. Mark Wintermute - Linwood Kansas Anyone in the OK/KS area know of a feed store with some soybean mill. I feed it to the horses and sheep and I am having a hard time getting it here in the Shawnee area. Thanks OJ Oneta and The Gang www.johnsonquarterhorses.com Don't tell GOD what to do, just report for duty! ___ ___ This message is from the Blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info
Re: [Blackbelly] one udder
Hi Rick, What you have described is mastitis. I have had two ewes have this problem where the mastitis killed one side of the bag. I gave a lot of penicillin injections into the bad side of the bag to keep down infection. I also helped the bag come off with some barnyard surgery. The good news is the ewe can still have lambs. Check the remaining side of the udder and make sure it is still good and not hard. If the remaining side is still good and the ewe is a good mother she can still raise twins. It would be a good idea to keep a very close eye on the lambs to make sure they are getting enough milk. Mastitis is hard to keep contained to just one side of an udder but can be done. I found the biggest reason for mastitis is bummer lambs mugging a ewe for a meal. They bite the teat to hang on and the ewe literally drags these lambs around. The teats get injured and then infection sets in leading to mastitis. I have learned the hard way to grab these bummer lambs and separate them away from the moms ASAP. Mark Wintermute I had a somewhat strange thing happen to a ewe this spring. She literally lost an udder. The ewe had been nursing one lamb for a couple of months until one morning when she started acted sluggish and stopped nursing. I couldn't see anything different on her or find any injuries and I looked at her udder carefully. She lay down and didn't move much for nearly a week. She wasn't much interested in food or water either. When she finally started to recover, she had lost a lot of weight, and I could see that one side of her udder had begun to rot away. I figured that was the end of her, but she seems to have survived it. There is a hairless dark patch where the udder used to be, and she is back to normal, along with now being a nice trimmed size. (She was a fat, Great American breed.) Is this at all common for any kind of livestock to have a part of their body rot away and fall off? I am so surprised that I almost want to keep her to see if she can still produce and nurse lambs next year, but maybe that is not the most logical, practical thing to do? Rick Krach Auburn, California (530) 889-1488 ___ This message is from the Blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info
Re: [Blackbelly] Remote facilities
It may sound unusual but we use hog huts. They are portable (by tractor anyway), can fit several (we have seen 10 grown rams fit in like sardines). When we start a new pasture a hog hut goes out. Its like their security blanket. They know it and will congregate around it. Sharon -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Cecil Bearden Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2008 6:31 AM To: blackbelly@lists.blackbellysheep.info Subject: Re: [Blackbelly] Remote facilities That sounds like a great solution for those of us who live in moderate climates. However, I might need a little more substantial method for these 130 MPH wind gusts like we had 2 nights ago here in OKlahoma... Cecil ___ This message is from the Blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info ___ This message is from the Blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info
Re: [Blackbelly] Hurt sheep update
YEAH!! I like sheep with attitude! Those that have the fight in them do seem to survive better than the others. I especially enjoy seeing the ewes knock dogs that don't belong with the sheep into next week. Mark Wintermute > Thanks for the advice. I am going to have to get some banamine to keep on > hand for emergencies like this. Well, "Princess" is up and going. not > putting any weight on her leg but she sure won't let me catch her! I did > get her to come to the fence and eat some grain. (She never could resist > grain.). I think she will be okay. I had another hair sheep get caught > jumping and hurt her leg much worse and she is walking fine and even had a > baby a couple of months ago. I didn't think she would ever use it and > would possibly have to be put down. She is wild as a cats meow and that > fight must have been what pulled her threw with flying colors! Thanks > again Nancy ___ ___ This message is from the Blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info
Re: [Blackbelly] Parasites and Deworming
Hi David, Worming programs are very dependant on your climate and stocking rate. The more sheep you get per acre the more likely you will need to worm. If you are in a desert environment then you might not need to worm. But if you are in a humid warm wet environment the more likely parasites will be a problem. If you are in a severe parasite area you will need to worm every 3 weeks. Basically there is a new crop of parasites hatching within every three weeks. The first step especially with the Blackbelly breeds is to determine if you really need to worm your sheep. Select one or two of your least healthy looking sheep and have a fecal test done. Another way to determine which sheep are in the most need of deworming is to roll down their eyelid and look at the color. If it is a strong red color they are likely OK. If the eyelid is pale or even near white the sheep is in trouble. A veterinarian can do the fecal test or if you have the desire and equipment you can do the test. If your fecal test comes back showing parasites determine what parasite(s) you need to eliminate. Then choose the appropriate anthelmic (wormer) to kill what your sheep have. It is always best to withhold food from sheep for around 12 hours before worming. This allows the sheep to expel as much matter from their rumen as possible. Then worm your sheep and continue to withhold food for another 12 hours. This allows the wormer to linger in the rumen. Without much matter in the rumen the wormer does not get diluted and the parasites only have the medication to feast on. I use a variety of wormers depending on season, labor and again what parasite I am confronting. Also pay attention to slaughter withdrawal periods for meat consumption. There are withdrawal periods for human consumption of milk as well. I do not use the long lasting wormers in my meat lambs so as to be sure there is no residue possible in their system at slaughter. IF it is hot and the sheep are drinking a lot of water I use Prohibit (levasole) powder drench. I weigh up the appropriate amount of powder and dissolve it into the amount of drinking water consumed in 24 hours. You must make sure the sheep are drinking this water/medication! This is the easiest way to worm but is not as accurate. I do this during the summer when my parasite load is not heavy and my labor force off from school disappears. The next cheapest wormer I use is Valbazen drench as used on cattle. I use 6cc disposable syringes that I have collected throughout the year. Valbazen is good for controlling tapeworms which most other wormers do not touch. BUT Valbazen should not be used on pregnant ewes as it can cause birth defects! The next wormer is Safe-guard suspension drench as used on cattle. It is also effective on tapeworms that most wormers do not touch. Safe-guard is the probably the safest wormer to use on pregnant ewes. I again use 6cc disposable syringes to drench the sheep. Ivomec Sheep drench is very effective but takes a rather large dose. It is also rather expensive if you have many sheep to do. I use Ivomec on problematic sheep. Typically I am using Ivomec on sheep that have not responded well to the Safe-guard, Valbazen or Prohibit mentioned above. I have also used Cydectin drench for problematic sheep in the same manner as the Ivomec mentioned above. This stuff really works but is expensive! Injectable wormers can also be found for Ivomec and Cydectin. Dectomax is also a good injectable wormer. Their biggest advantage is they are fast acting and last longer than the drenches. Although they can last up to eight weeks it is best to follow up these wormers with a drench wormer such as Safeguard three weeks after the injectable. This helps to avoid cultivating a "Super Parasite" that somehow survived the injectable anthelmic. There is no one size fits all answer for worming programs but I hope I have been of some help. Mark Wintermute I've been going through the many websites looking at all of the various pesticides for parasites. I have about a dozen AB and I'm not sure what a reasonable deworming program should look like, what product is the best/least expensive to use, or if fecal testing is really all that necessary. And is it better to use injection? or a drench? There are a lot of horse ranches around my area, but those products don't necessarily translate well and I'm rather leery of trying them out, especially when dosages are so different. I'm calling around to some large animal vets but just like any other business trying to make a sale I want to know I'm not being snowed into getting something I don't really need. I'd appreciate hearing what you all do and use. --David ___ ___ This message is from the Blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info
Re: [Blackbelly] Hurt sheep Don't mix banamine & dex
Good advice Cecil, I should have said that! I have only used one or the other. Also, I feel it is important to only give medicine if the sheep really needs it and to discontinue medication as soon as possible. I usually discontinue medication as soon as the sheep decides to join the living! The more the sheep fights me the sooner I quit the medication. It is most disheartening when a sheep no longer cares what happens to them. Every medication has a good and bad side to them so use with care. Mark Wintermute <>> I learned the hard way that if you use one do not also give the other. 1/4 cc of banamine every other day should be plenty. Too much Banamine and you get ulcerated stomach and intestines. Make sure she is getting enough water with that much penn. Iodine will take care of most topcal infections. Cecil in OKla ___ ___ This message is from the Blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info
Re: [Blackbelly] Hurt sheep
If she is eating and drinking she will probably be walking OK in about a week. The penicillin is a good idea. An anti-inflammatory such as 1cc of Banamine per day until acting normal would help. Dexamethasone is a steroid and anti-inflammatory that also works well (.5CC TO 2CC). Dexamethasone really makes a injured sheep feel much better. IMPORTANT Dexamethasone is also used to induce labor so DO NOT use if the ewe is pregnant! Also, Dexamethasone reduces the immune system so do not use if an active infection or fever is present. My disclaimer: I am not a veterinarian Mark Wintermute >Good morning, my husband found one of my favorite jacob sheep ewes caught >in a fence this morning. I don't know how long she was there maybe >overnight. She has a wound on her leg just above the ankle area which I put >a little pennicillian on and also sprayed with iodine. I gave her a tetnus >shot and about 6cc of penn. I don't know yet if she hurt her hip permantely >or not as she hasn't tryed to stand since he got her out. Any other >suggestions of what I can do for her? I will continue to give 6 cc of penn >for the next 3 or 4 days. Any suggestions would be helpful. I know that I >can't wrap or bandage her leg because of being a wooly. Thanks Nancy ___ This message is from the Blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info
Re: [Blackbelly] Free Sheep - Beware
Forgot to ask, Why were the police there? Mark WOW - We had been talking to them about their sheep and then communication stopped. To think that could have been me chasing sheep!! I do hope that they find a home for their sheep though. Our friends teenage boy was interested in raising sheep so we were trying to help him out. He likes horns (macho) :) Mark Wintermute I am sure many of you read the add for free sheep in Kansas. We made arrangements to pick them up Sunday. And were going to pay for them. Well after driving 7 1/2 hours through storms etc. When my husband arrived they were in a very large lot with no way to catch them. The folks thought they would just walk up and walk into the horse trailor on their own. And the police were there to top that off with lights flashing! needless to say the trailor was empty on the way home. If anyone else decides to go after these animals please be aware that you will neeed to bring fence and everything else needed to catch them. They are on a sandy dirt road to boot so be sure you take a 4x4 which we didn't. Just a few thoughts for those who might go. Nancy ___ ___ This message is from the Blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info ___ This message is from the Blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info
Re: [Blackbelly] Free Sheep - Beware
WOW - We had been talking to them about their sheep and then communication stopped. To think that could have been me chasing sheep!! I do hope that they find a home for their sheep though. Our friends teenage boy was interested in raising sheep so we were trying to help him out. He likes horns (macho) :) Mark Wintermute I am sure many of you read the add for free sheep in Kansas. We made arrangements to pick them up Sunday. And were going to pay for them. Well after driving 7 1/2 hours through storms etc. When my husband arrived they were in a very large lot with no way to catch them. The folks thought they would just walk up and walk into the horse trailor on their own. And the police were there to top that off with lights flashing! needless to say the trailor was empty on the way home. If anyone else decides to go after these animals please be aware that you will neeed to bring fence and everything else needed to catch them. They are on a sandy dirt road to boot so be sure you take a 4x4 which we didn't. Just a few thoughts for those who might go. Nancy ___ ___ This message is from the Blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info
Re: [Blackbelly] Free Sheep - Beware
It is unlikely the sheep have appropriate testing required for importing across State lines. The minimum requirement is a general health certificate from a veterinarian inspection. But it is not uncommon for buyers to load and go. Mark Wintermute Cecil, They won't have them tested so its buyer beware across state lines. Sharon -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Cecil Bearden Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2008 7:59 AM To: blackbelly@lists.blackbellysheep.info Subject: Re: [Blackbelly] Free Sheep - Beware Were these sheep in good health? I would not have a separate pen for them right now. Cecil in OKla ___ ___ This message is from the Blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info
Re: [Blackbelly] Free Sheep - Beware
Cecil, They won't have them tested so its buyer beware across state lines. Sharon -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Cecil Bearden Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2008 7:59 AM To: blackbelly@lists.blackbellysheep.info Subject: Re: [Blackbelly] Free Sheep - Beware Were these sheep in good health? I would not have a separate pen for them right now. Cecil in OKla ___ This message is from the Blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info ___ This message is from the Blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info
Re: [Blackbelly] Free Blackbellys near Wichita Kansas
No need. We are taking them. Sharon -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Carol J. Elkins Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2008 11:32 AM To: blackbelly@lists.blackbellysheep.info Subject: [Blackbelly] Free Blackbellys near Wichita Kansas I received this email today and thought some of you near Wichita might be interested. I believe she has American Blackbellies. >From: "lisa tanner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Subject: Blackbellys near Wichita Kansas > >I have a heard of roughly 14 high quality sheep Pictures are available. > >My daughter started this herd as a 4H project several years ago to >improve the breed quality. > >She is no longer working with them and I need to move them. I have >tried selling them locally but have had very little success. I am >willing to give them away to anyone willing to come and get them. > >If you know of anyone in this area intrested please give them my >contact information. > >Again these are exremely high quality sheep. > >Best regards, >Lisa Tanner >316-283-9031 ___ This message is from the Blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info ___ This message is from the Blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info
Re: [Blackbelly] Selenium
Hang in there Cecil. This has been my worst year for mortality with my lambs. Burying all those lambs has depressed me greatly. I am really sorry for you. I have only used selenium injection on a lamb one time. He was an extremely fast growing lamb who simply grew faster than the selenium in his diet could support. The selenium injection (from memory) was .5CC intra-muscle. I did the initial shot and a follow-up 30 days later. I gave the momma a 1CC shot at the same time the lamb received his first shot. She did not get a follow-up shot. Both the momma (150#+) and the lamb (25# at 3 weeks) were very large sheep. The shots definitely saved these sheep. Thank you for the dileuting idea. I think that would be a very smart approach! Also, if I ever give selenium again I think I will go the subcutaneous route. Mark Wintermute Subject: Re: [Blackbelly] Selenium This has been one of the worst days of my life as a shepherd. On the advice of a veterinarian ( several) I gave selenium injections to my flock. Within 4 hours I lost 5 of my lambs. 4 of my smallest and one that I was bottle supplementing. By yesterday morning I had lost another 3 lambs. I gave selenium and Vitamin E injections labeled MuSe at the dosage recommended by the vet. That dosage was 2 times the rec immended cattle dosage on the package insert which I did not read until it was too late. So far I have lost 6 to suffocation in the barns from getting laid on I guess. 3 to a ewe that was "lesbian" 3 to abortion. 1 to pneumonia and 8 to selenium. The worst night I had was when coyotes and dogs killed 6. I even outdid the coyotes! Like I said, this has been the worst day. Please do not make my mistake. Any trace mineral should only be given orally. There is no antidote for overdose with injectable. You can only wait to see how many die within the next week Cecil in OKla ___ This message is from the Blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info ___ This message is from the Blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info
Re: [Blackbelly] Blackbelly Digest, Vol 4, Issue 16
Hi Jim, Since you have made your decision to keep Rascal you could still castrate him and see if it helps tame his aggressiveness. If you have a cow rancher nearby see if they have castrating tools for their bulls and bull calves you could borrow. I routinely castrate mature rams using a "XL Bander" brand castrator. It uses a thick latex band and is made for bulls. The band costs $1.00 and guarantees I am done with that ram. The rams act normal by the next morning. After a week or so I cut off the testicles leaving the band on the ram. You could have a veterinarian do the castration but it really isn't necessary. I have been selecting for temperament for many years now in my rams (they are all non-threatening). Therefore I cannot say if they became "nicer" or not after castration. I have no tolerance for dangerous rams. Visitors to the farm (adults & children) usually don't realize the true danger of a ram. When I did have dangerous rams they never did "figure it out" after being wrestled to the ground and put in "time out". My best solution was to make them into hamburger ASAP. Mark Wintermute Beth and Chris Thanks for your input. My alpha (Rascal) was a sweetheart until about age 5. Then I started noticing changes. He has slowly become very aggressive. He is a beautiful animal and loves attention as long as I am on the other side of the fence (loves to have his ears scratched), but when I enter the pasture his legs come up and wave and he backs up to show signs of a charge. We have had a couple of battles where I would wrestle him down and hold him, but recent back surgery prevents that now. I will probably not butcher him, I will just continue to be careful and keep my distance or something between he and I Thanks again Jim Fallis Palmer, Texas Jim Fallis President Precise Adjustments, Inc 469-916-8335.Office 469-916-8339...Fax [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ This message is from the Blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info
Re: [Blackbelly] lamb antibiotic
Hello Nancy, I use Penicillin G Procaine (300,000 units per ml) at 1cc/45#, and Vitamin B Complex at 3cc/45#. These are both injections and can be subcutaneous or intra-muscle. Keep injections of these two medicines away from each other when locating shots on the lamb. I have found nothing better for respiratory problems in lambs. Pneumonia and starvation are the largest killers of lambs. I know you wanted something other than shots. The doses I use I only give every other day. I give one more dose after determining the lamb is well. Really feed them well as nutrition is needed to fight for their lives. There are more powerful antibiotics but they are very expensive. I have had very poor results with LA200 for respiratory problems. I have tried Teramyacin (spelling?) in drinking water for large groups of lambs. Apparently it really tastes bad since I had a major boycott of the water. I do not really know how well it worked since it is doubtful that any of the lambs received a proper dose. Mark Wintermute - Good morning, I have a lamb who has been fighting a cold , some congestion and a cough for about a week. She is a bottle lamb and I hate to give shots! Is there anything new out there that you can put in the obtle ? I know that I can't feed milk at the same time but could use a water subsititute for a feeding then go back to milk on the next one. Thanks for any ideas. Nancy www.freewebs.com/mossyspringsranch Thanks for looking! I have posted a few new pictures of lambs etc. for those who like to look. ___ This message is from the Blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info
Re: [Blackbelly] The Beet Pulp Experiment
Barb, I for one like the research you do. Although it doe not always apply for our environment, it is of interest so we know not to go that route. We have considered planting one field in turnips since the sheep some to love them so much. But it is cost prohibitive. Lately it seems that the "ax" has been swung towards Mark and I so much, we are tired and basically are trying to stay out of it. Sometimes I just can't seem to do that. We have over 500 sheep so I know exactly what you are going through. Sharon -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Barb Lee Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 1:54 PM To: blackbelly@lists.blackbellysheep.info Subject: Re: [Blackbelly] The Beet Pulp Experiment Sharon, If my current thinking continues to reel out on this same track, I visualize either going to a breed where the groundwork is already done (what's the fun in that), or hm..what other word is there...hybridizing? My greatest disappointment at this point is that I feel I am talking to a mud fence. There is neither reinforcement, nor opposition. I've put my neck on the proverbial chopping block with all this stuff I'm talking about. I've handed a lot of people the axe. Why isn't anybody at least taking a swing? What's the point if nobody is willing to contribute? For all my talk, I know full well that without the genetic input from other well founded breeding programs, my own feeble attempt at breed improvement is doomed. Barb - Original Message - From: "The Wintermutes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 11:17 AM Subject: Re: [Blackbelly] The Beet Pulp Experiment > Barb, > > You stated" > > My problem is, I am too stubborn to give > up the notion that I can adapt my registered flock to meet my > expectation (I have a few that never disappoint me). It's getting to > be > an expensive hobby though. I love the lamb so much, I do not want to > risk outcrossing. I have even been thinking about infusing some polled > blood into the flock (these would never be registered as AB), to see > if > I could improve reproductive performance without going outside the > blackbelly. Actually my best performing lamb this year is a ram lamb > with tiny little horn buds - he's almost smooth headed. Where did > that > come from in a flock with very good horns!! What's the connection? > The > ewe, a registered AB, milked like a cow and has a pedigree of horns. > > My dilemma is now, whether several more years of selection for a > higher > plane of performance within my AB flock will be repaid in value added > to > the sale of proven breeding stock, or if I should just stick to meat > production. There is little point in continuing to register animals > if > the goal isn't to improve them. It's a big problem, because I would > like to some day make exceptional quality breeding stock available to > other producers, but not for $45 a lamb...more like $450 a lamb. If I > give up on that, I lose half my interest in my work." > > Don't feel like you are the only breeder with these questions. > > One thing I would like to point out is that genetic diversity produces > better animals. One thing I do remember from my genetics classes at > the > university is one amazing statement the professor made. "Without 30 > different base lines it is impossible to keep a blood line pure." > This is a > common theme among geneticists all though the number of base lines > vary. > Nearly all of the current AB and BB lines are from only 2 different > base > lines. Without some out-crossing, it is nearly impossible to keep the > breed > alive. We are using BB and AB together to produce better quality and > size. > Even within these two lines, there have been out-crossing before we > started > with them. > > The influence of previous breeders with Rambouillet and Mouflon is > quite > prevalent in all the flocks we have visited over the years. The > pictures we > have of "Caribbean" BB, although similar, have more color variations > that > what is prevalent here in the United States. > > Sharon Wintermute > > > > > > ___ > This message is from the Blackbelly mailing list > Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info > > ___ This message is from the Blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info ___ This message is from the Blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info
Re: [Blackbelly] The Beet Pulp Experiment
Barb, You stated" My problem is, I am too stubborn to give up the notion that I can adapt my registered flock to meet my expectation (I have a few that never disappoint me). It's getting to be an expensive hobby though. I love the lamb so much, I do not want to risk outcrossing. I have even been thinking about infusing some polled blood into the flock (these would never be registered as AB), to see if I could improve reproductive performance without going outside the blackbelly. Actually my best performing lamb this year is a ram lamb with tiny little horn buds - he's almost smooth headed. Where did that come from in a flock with very good horns!! What's the connection? The ewe, a registered AB, milked like a cow and has a pedigree of horns. My dilemma is now, whether several more years of selection for a higher plane of performance within my AB flock will be repaid in value added to the sale of proven breeding stock, or if I should just stick to meat production. There is little point in continuing to register animals if the goal isn't to improve them. It's a big problem, because I would like to some day make exceptional quality breeding stock available to other producers, but not for $45 a lamb...more like $450 a lamb. If I give up on that, I lose half my interest in my work." Don't feel like you are the only breeder with these questions. One thing I would like to point out is that genetic diversity produces better animals. One thing I do remember from my genetics classes at the university is one amazing statement the professor made. "Without 30 different base lines it is impossible to keep a blood line pure." This is a common theme among geneticists all though the number of base lines vary. Nearly all of the current AB and BB lines are from only 2 different base lines. Without some out-crossing, it is nearly impossible to keep the breed alive. We are using BB and AB together to produce better quality and size. Even within these two lines, there have been out-crossing before we started with them. The influence of previous breeders with Rambouillet and Mouflon is quite prevalent in all the flocks we have visited over the years. The pictures we have of "Caribbean" BB, although similar, have more color variations that what is prevalent here in the United States. Sharon Wintermute ___ This message is from the Blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info
Re: [Blackbelly] Feeding Trivia
Hi Renee, Sheep are notorious for over eating and wasting hay. I really don't mind the over eating but cannot afford the wasting of my hay supply. So I practice limit feeding. Limit feeding is simply defined as not feeding more than what the sheep will eat in 24 hours. If there is hay left over in 24 hours then I over fed and it is typically wasted (unless it is alfalfa). This way of feeding is more labor intensive but I do not have an infinite supply of hay to work with. I buy hay that the cattle and horse people refuse. Many people will not buy hay that is not virgin brome, alfalfa, timothy and such. My sheep seem to prefer multiculture hay. They seem to simply prefer variety in both their hay and pasture. I can buy 700# bales of hay from $9(weed) to $20(alfalfa mix) per bale. If I were to buy perfect brome hay it would start at $22.50 per bale and go up from there. Bluestem hay is supposed to be good hay but the sheep dislike it. It reminds me of brussel sprouts and my kids. I feed it when the weather is really nice and warm and unchallenging to the sheep. They pretty much refuse to eat it until they are hungry. My weed hay is the nastiest looking hay. It has a lot of rag weed, wild daisies, wild sunflower, and various grasses with fescue the most common. It has thick stems and the bales almost look black. The sheep absolutely attack these 700# bales! They root through all the stems to get the leaves. The stems are thoroughly worked through and the larger ones are left on the ground in approximately 3 inch pieces. What is left resembles a flat carpet of toothpicks. I feed these bales when the weather is not challenging. My grass hay is usually a mixture of blue grass, fescue, and brome. It will have a few weeds but they are minor. This is from my fertilized hay fields. I feed this hay when the weather is challenging. It is raining, snowing, sleeting, and cold outside. The crabgrass hay is harvested from dormant wheat fields. The fields were fertilized for the wheat and the crabgrass thrives after the wheat harvest. The crabgrass is baled into hay so that the wheat can be no till planted in the fall. This is excellent hay and is fed when the weather is getting really bad. Crabgrass is typically baled late in the season after all the good brome hay fields are finished. This just happens to be the peak time of the year to harvest crabgrass since it is a warm season grass! My alfalfa hay is from winter/frost killed alfalfa fields. The fields still produced some alfalfa but were not salvageable for the current season to be sold as horse hay. The farmer lets the weeds and grass come up bales it in the fall and then replants into alfalfa for the coming year. I feed this hay when the weather is at its worst especially when there is killing wind chills present. This is by far the favorite hay of my sheep. I have had trampling and crushing deaths from the sheep fighting to eat the hay. I hope this helps you Renee. Mark Wintermute Renee, I truly don't know but Mark does - he is the expert at our place. I will ask him to respond. He spends nearly all day with the sheep. He knows just by looking at them what they need. Its uncanny. We just finished our second go at re-arranging the ewes so the "cleanup" ram will catch the stragglers. Sharon Sharon, I'm guessing there's not a simple answer to this question...but when do you use each of the five varieties of hay? Thanks! Renee Bailey Currently we have five different varieties that are > used based on the different times they are needed. Alfalfa hay, actual weed > hay (yes they do exist on weeds, and its extremely cheap), brome hay, > bluestem hay, and fescue hay. > > Depending on what each group needs, they get which ever they need. > > > Sharon Wintermute ___ This message is from the Blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info
Re: [Blackbelly] Feeding Trivia
Renee, I truly don't know but Mark does - he is the expert at our place. I will ask him to respond. He spends nearly all day with the sheep. He knows just by looking at them what they need. Its uncanny. We just finished our second go at re-arranging the ewes so the "cleanup" ram will catch the stragglers. Sharon -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Paul & Renee Bailey Sent: Monday, January 14, 2008 9:02 PM To: blackbelly@lists.blackbellysheep.info Subject: Re: [Blackbelly] Feeding Trivia Sharon, I'm guessing there's not a simple answer to this question...but when do you use each of the five varieties of hay? Thanks! Renee Bailey Currently we have five different varieties that are > used based on the different times they are needed. Alfalfa hay, actual weed > hay (yes they do exist on weeds, and its extremely cheap), brome hay, > bluestem hay, and fescue hay. > > Depending on what each group needs, they get which ever they need. > > > Sharon Wintermute > > _ Make distant family not so distant with Windows VistaR + Windows LiveT. http://www.microsoft.com/windows/digitallife/keepintouch.mspx?ocid=TXT_TAGLM _CPC_VideoChat_distantfamily_012008 ___ This message is from the Blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info ___ This message is from the Blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info
Re: [Blackbelly] Feeding Trivia
Barb, 25# of Cecil's hay is not going to give the same results as your hay or mine. Its very geographically different just as each flock is genetically. Carol's observation of 100# ewe between 1.5 and 2 years is considered small for us. Again, our hay is of different quality and nutritional value than Carol's. We have access to all kinds of hay since the farmer's here were overstocked last year. Currently we have five different varieties that are used based on the different times they are needed. Alfalfa hay, actual weed hay (yes they do exist on weeds, and its extremely cheap), brome hay, bluestem hay, and fescue hay. Depending on what each group needs, they get which ever they need. The same ration every day is not necessarily good. They do not get any supplements of grain unless nursing (then sparingly) only salts. Sharon Wintermute -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Barb Lee Sent: Monday, January 14, 2008 6:08 PM To: blackbelly@lists.blackbellysheep.info; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Blackbelly] Feeding Trivia > So, 25lbs of dry matter is > about right. I have also noticed that the ones with the big bellies > will raise 2 lambs without any problem. Cecil, 25 pounds of hay is more than I feed my 900 pound horses per day (each). All this foolin' around with rations has come about in the months when I am feeding mostly dry feed. I may be grossly underestimating what they're getting out of the little bit of green pick they have at pasture right now. >From an evolutionary point, my little blackbellies are really out of their environment in our climate, and even though most of them are relatively local stock I may actually have a sort of "tropical fish in a goldfish bowl" situation where I am asking for something that they are not completely adapted to provide yet.Then again I am probably the only person on the planet that has my particular experiences with the sheep. The best thing I ever did was sit down with those NRC charts. They may not entirely apply to blackbellies, but they give a good starting point to someone who seems to have a lot of holes in their program (me). Barb This year with the super wet > grass then it turned off dry, and the grass has no real nutrition, > then > the ones with the big bellies have done well, I have lost 3 lambs from > lack of milk though. After robservation, their mothers have small > bellies and look very guant after 2 weeks of nursing twins. These wet > months we have had really tell what ones to keep and which ones to > cull, > Blackbellies thrive on dry grass. Wet grass causes a lot of > problems. > In Eastern OK, the cattle are always thin because of the sappy grass. > The western OK cattle are on Buffalo grass and grow fat. > > Cecil in OK > > Barb Lee wrote: >> I guess my burst of enthusiasm over feeding "trivia" may have looked >> a >> bit obsessive and unnecessary to some, but I got a real dose of >> validation last night. >> >> It's pretty undeniable that we all share a common goal of wanting to >> add >> value to our animals. We know we can't manage them exactly like >> wool/meat breeds, yet we don't often define why or how, nor do I see >> a >> lot of discussion about practical solutions to the issue of adding >> value. >> >> My main reason for trying to spark interest in the subject is because >> working with NRC nutrition tables and calculating rations has led me >> to >> believe that the main issue with lamb performance/gains, etc. is >> probably a natural adaptation of some sort...the sheep seem to be >> only >> capable of ingesting about 75% of the dry matter recommended on the >> NRC >> tables at any stage of life. I don't believe that a blackbelly >> requires >> any LESS nutrition than a wool/meat breed, I believe that the same >> nutritional balance needs to be maintained, but in smaller >> quantities. >> I think that frequently the sheep's "easy keeping" qualities are >> interpreted as lower levels of nutrition, when in fact, I think it >> actually means, same nutrition, lower amounts. In the end though, >> that >> means smaller, slower growing lambs. >> >> I'm sure the tables are based on observation of sheep that have been >> developed over perhaps centuries for wool and meat, then managed in >> industrial/university settings. Although a lot of the breeds are >> going >> down the feedlot tubes, there are sheep breeds and crossbreeds that >> are >> still highly adapted to pasture and grazing. This might seem like a >> no-brainer, but you have to look deeper than what seems obvious on >> the >> surface. >> >> Our sheep didn't evolve in temperate pastoral settings. We all know >> their feeding habits and requirements are "different" but still we >> haven't defined the differences and why our sheep "do things >> differently." >> >> I think that Difference #1 is their capacity for ingesting feed - >> notably high moisture gras
Re: [Blackbelly] Lamb Thieves
I have lost about 15 lambs. A coyote might account for a couple of those. There is no way I can look at around 200 lambs and tell that one is missing. I believe they are being stolen late at night roughly once a month. Mark Mark, Holy cow...that's awful and it would be so easy for someone to make off with one or two and it would be hard to notice. We have watch dogs on all sides of the sheep, plus motion detector lights and elec fencing. In your case I would ad video cameras if possible. Happy New Year to you, too. Beth Stamper Sierra Luna Blackbelly Sheep Powell Butte, OR ___ This message is from the Blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info
[Blackbelly] Lamb Thieves
Happy New Year to everyone! I have an ongoing problem with thieves stealing my lambs. It apparently is escalating probably due to the rising gas prices and such. I had an aggressive dog but he was poisoned (probably bit a thief). The dogs I have now are great protectors of the sheep from four legged predators. These are people friendly dogs which is great for the liability side of things. Anyhow, I sorted and weighed ewe lambs for breeding on Monday evening. By Thursday evening I had a 65 pound ewe lamb stolen out of a pen in a barn. I intend to file a report with the sheriff. Anyone have any ideas of what else I can do? I am looking into motion detector cameras. I am also thinking about increasing my electric fence but am doubtful that will stop a thief. Help! Mark Wintermute ___ This message is from the Blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info
Re: [Blackbelly] Prolific?
Hi Barb, Now that I know what you are looking for check out this link: http://www.tamaracksheep.com/pasture%20lambing.html I have been to Janet's farm and she really knows what she is talking about. Her sheep are not Finnsheep or Romanov but are very prolific. Pasture lambing prolific good milking ewes is possible if the nutrition level is there in the pasture. I think triplets are possible but am nervous at more than that! Mark Wintermute Mark, Thanks for the input...what I'm aiming at is sort of a feeding issue, as opposed to a timing issue...The reason I ask is because of some text in a book on forage-based sheep raising, which puts the "prolific" breeds such as Finnsheep which have large litters, into the same feeding requirements of dairy type animals in that they require great amounts of high quality feed to support many little bodies at one time. This gentleman does not think that litter-ing breeds are as successful in an all grass-based program because their nutritional requirements are so high. He is also in Canada where the grass season is shorter. I know all-grass (including legumes) forage based dairying is possible but it is highly management intensive and frequently highly seasonal. So if sheep are prolific on a "many mouths to feed at one time" versus "a few mouths to feed many times," pushing for too many lambs in litters could significantly alter the success of a program that relied primarily on grass. (Grass farming is said to be a knowledge based farming system.) Something to think about for those of us who are interested in raising the sheep for the grassfed market. Barb ___ This message is from the Blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info
Re: [Blackbelly] Prolific?
I interpret prolificacy for the Blackbelly as capable of lambing three times in two years with around five lambs. Outstanding ewes can twin every time. But normal ewes usually single in the more challenging months. The Finnsheep and Romanov typically lamb two times in two years with around five or six lambs. So if you lamb every eight months the Blackbelly are prolific. If you lamb only once a year they are less prolific? Maybe precocious is a better word than prolific for the Blackbelly. I am aiming for more than a 200% lambing rate. I'm not really aiming for triplets as much as avoiding singles. Mark Wintermute -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Barb Lee Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2007 6:12 PM To: blackbelly@lists.blackbellysheep.info Subject: [Blackbelly] Prolific? Do folks out there generally feel that blackbellies fall into the "prolific" category, with such breeds as Finnsheep? That would mean producing pretty good sized litters (3-5) on a regular basis. Or do we tend to think of them more as out of season breeders that are fairly reliable twinners. I'm not thinking of one or two outstanding individuals, but tendencies of any flock to produce large litters of lambs. I'd also be curious for curiosity's sake, whether folks are going out of their way to produce triplets + Thanks, Barb Lee ___ This message is from the Blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info ___ This message is from the Blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info
Re: [Blackbelly] How Many Ways Can You Say "AAAGH!!!"
Barb, I love your descriptive names!! We have one called "Yard Runt" since she lives in the front yard. Her mom dried up at 3 weeks of age and we weren't sure she was going to make it!! Sharon -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Barb Lee Sent: Friday, November 16, 2007 10:54 PM To: blackbelly@lists.blackbellysheep.info Subject: Re: [Blackbelly] How Many Ways Can You Say "AAAGH!!!" I have a group of nine summer lambs, weaned 3 weeks ago. The little glutton is one of the weanlings. Mama was in with the weanlings. Now I have the group of dry ewes, the group of weanlings, two overwrought rams that need love (don't get any until February) and one clueless teenage mother with twins that doesn't know she's being molested when it's happening! LOL! Clueless Teenage Mom and babes will occupy the (spacious) woodshed until it's time to wean the twins. Barb ----- Original Message - From: "The Wintermutes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Friday, November 16, 2007 8:13 PM Subject: Re: [Blackbelly] How Many Ways Can You Say "AAAGH!!!" > Sounds like its time to put the 3 month old out with the big boys. > This way > the mom can raise the twins. At 3 months it can be weaned. > > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of > Barb Lee > Sent: Friday, November 16, 2007 7:03 PM > To: blackbelly@lists.blackbellysheep.info > Subject: [Blackbelly] How Many Ways Can You Say "AAAGH!!!" > > So we have this ridiculously long, drawn out lambing that should have > ended in mid-August, right? But it ends up dragging on until the last > straggler, a ewe lamb, births twins this week, right? The remaining 3 > ewes that didn't lamb this year finally got booted out with the dry > bunch because they're all coming into heat and obviously not pregnant, > so don't need all the nutrition that the weanlings are getting. So my > cunning plan is to let the new mother stay with the weaned (3 weeks > ago) > lambs, so they can all enjoy choice feed together. Right? Everyone > is > all nicely sorted out and my plan is put into place until... > > I go out to feed tonight, and there is this great whoppin' three month > old weanling just stripping away hammer and tong at the ewe's little > maiden udder while her little wee twins stand there with nothing to > eat!!! Aaaggh! > > I have got sheep stuffed into every corner of this farm and every > square > foot of shelter is TAKEN! I can't believe this...I am going to have > to > jury-rig a pen in the barn aisle and raise these little creatures > indoors! Mother and twins got promptly remanded to the jug until I > can > figure things out tomorrow! > > When does the "Raising Sheep the Easy Way" part kick in > > Barb L. > > > ___ > This message is from the Blackbelly mailing list > Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info > > > ___ > This message is from the Blackbelly mailing list > Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info > > ___ This message is from the Blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info ___ This message is from the Blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info
Re: [Blackbelly] How Many Ways Can You Say "AAAGH!!!"
Sounds like its time to put the 3 month old out with the big boys. This way the mom can raise the twins. At 3 months it can be weaned. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Barb Lee Sent: Friday, November 16, 2007 7:03 PM To: blackbelly@lists.blackbellysheep.info Subject: [Blackbelly] How Many Ways Can You Say "AAAGH!!!" So we have this ridiculously long, drawn out lambing that should have ended in mid-August, right? But it ends up dragging on until the last straggler, a ewe lamb, births twins this week, right? The remaining 3 ewes that didn't lamb this year finally got booted out with the dry bunch because they're all coming into heat and obviously not pregnant, so don't need all the nutrition that the weanlings are getting. So my cunning plan is to let the new mother stay with the weaned (3 weeks ago) lambs, so they can all enjoy choice feed together. Right? Everyone is all nicely sorted out and my plan is put into place until... I go out to feed tonight, and there is this great whoppin' three month old weanling just stripping away hammer and tong at the ewe's little maiden udder while her little wee twins stand there with nothing to eat!!! Aaaggh! I have got sheep stuffed into every corner of this farm and every square foot of shelter is TAKEN! I can't believe this...I am going to have to jury-rig a pen in the barn aisle and raise these little creatures indoors! Mother and twins got promptly remanded to the jug until I can figure things out tomorrow! When does the "Raising Sheep the Easy Way" part kick in Barb L. ___ This message is from the Blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info ___ This message is from the Blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info
Re: [Blackbelly] Minor Miracle!
These are the moments you forget all the doubts and count your blessings. Congratz Barb!!! -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Barb Lee Sent: Monday, November 12, 2007 5:22 PM To: blackbelly@lists.blackbellysheep.info Subject: [Blackbelly] Minor Miracle! Did I ever get a surprise today! I didn't exactly plan it this way, but I knew that my 12 month old ewe lamb was preparing to give birth. Last night I locked her little mob up near the barn. This morning we awoke to a howling gale. I went down to feed the sheep and horses and everything was normal, with all the critters huddling inside out of the wind and rain. Later in the morning, we were preparing to run errands. Bob was waiting at the gate, and I just went down to do a barn check. Before I could get inside, I heard the crooning of a mother ewe to her lamb! Sure enough! There she was mopping a newborn vigorously with her tongue!I sneaked around the back, hoping to close the stall door, locking the others out, before she decided to exit too. I did actually catch her in mid air as she was sailing out the door, but the instant she remembered her babe, she was back on duty. But what's this???!!! There was ANOTHER little wet puddle of newborn lamb on the barn floor! She had twins!!! Oh, and she was rapturous over both of them!!! Hubby had arrived by then and we set about in great haste to erect a jug. Mama was uncannily happy to follow her newborns into the jug (one of which had toddled off under the hay feeder). There she accepted me calmly as midwife. She was like a pet dog. We had a brief energy crisis with the little ewe lamb. But I got Nutri-Drench into her and a shot of Bo Se. Then Mama actually let me milk a couple of tablespoons of colostrum, even helping me. The lamb was strong enough to slurp down the colostrum from a bottle. She was quaking a bit, but after 15 minutes or so, I held her to the faucet and she slurped down a belly full of colostrum. Mama is still in ecstacies over her little babes! My presence and help is still welcome. I was out in the barn a short while ago, thinking to assist the little one to the lunch counter again, but before I could, she was on her feet and making a beeline to the faucet herself. I was contemplating selling that little ewe. Hahahaha! What was I thinking!!! Barb L. ___ This message is from the Blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info ___ This message is from the Blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info
Re: [Blackbelly] Out of Season Breeding
Hi Barb, July and August are tough months for lambing due to heat stress. You are still doing an intense selection process for your flock using these months. The hotter the climate the more intense the test for lambing. Basically many sheep cannot go to term with their fetuses due to heat. If you have the pasture I think you will be better off with a July lambing. Your slaughter lambs will be ready for peak prices after the beginning of the year. One other negative for July through December lambing is ewe lambs generally do not give birth to their lambs until the spring following their birthday. So these maiden ewes will give birth closer to 18 months of age instead of 12 months of age. But... those extra months can help the ewe lamb mature so there is less chance of birthing troubles. If you get a July born ewe lamb to give birth to her lambs at 12 months (In July again) I would consider that ewe VERY special! Mark -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Barb Lee Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2007 3:05 PM To: blackbelly@lists.blackbellysheep.info Subject: Re: [Blackbelly] Out of Season Breeding Thanks Mark, I do know of some blackbelly flocks that lamb seasonally, despite running with the ram year round. I was thinking that if a person was in the midst of a personal breed improvement program (such as myself), that some effort would want to be made to deliberately breed out of season when "proving" breeding stock, just to make sure that trait was not unintentionally lost. We have begun a program of breeding starting Feb 1 for July babies, which according to your excellent explanation, does not qualify for out of season breeding. We have numerous reasons for this timeline, but I've never been sure just exactly what constituted "out of season." If I wanted to prove to myself that my select breeding stock can lamb out of season, I will have to do so deliberately at least once in each ewe's lifetime. Thanks! Barb ___ This message is from the Blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info ___ This message is from the Blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info
Re: [Blackbelly] Out of Season Breeding
Hi Barb, All sheep readily ovulate and conceive October through January. Therefore all sheep typically can lamb mid February through the end of May to mid June. Starting in March there is a continual drop in ovulation through May. Then ovulation starts gradually increasing. Conception and ovulation rates noticeably improve by the last week of July. It is more likely that single lambs will be conceived during this period than multiples. So the "Out of Season Lambing" period is September 1st through Mid December. Breeding would take place April through July. The Blackbelly sheep can readily lamb during this seasonal period. Again it is more challenging to get a high lambing percentage. And the lambs are being born to a declining pasture. Parasites are not much of a problem though in this period for a bonus. Mark Wintermute Subject: [Blackbelly] Out of Season Breeding Could someone please tell me exactly which months constitute "Out of Season" for breeding sheep? Thanks! Barb ___ This message is from the Blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info ___ This message is from the Blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info
[Blackbelly] handling
With over 500 sheep here (polled), what we have found that works best is a narrow chute with the ability to cut it in half with a short piece of cattle panel. Its about 5 feet tall made of cattle panels so the sheep can see in with ends we can close at will. I kinda doubt this would work for horned rams. We have a few with 2 inch horns and they are not a problem. We are weeding out the horns. They have to walk thru it every day to get back to the feed lot from the pasture so they are quite comfortable with it. When we need to catch someone or a group of them, we "drive" them thru this area and shut the ends. We get about 30 at a time this way and since they are closely "packed" its very easy to read their tags, worm them, bag check, or hoof check. Once an animal is finished you kind of push them back and you move forward until you get thru the entire bunch. This works for a single person quite well. There has been many a time when I get home from work and Mark tells me he did another bag check that day. Now for the rams, we drive them into a corner and use a cattle panel to circle the corner. This way they can't get loose and we can tighten some field fence that is attached to the corner as an inner loop all the way around the single ram if necessary. Its basically a double loop system. Once the ram realizes he cant get out or move, ours usually quiet down. Hope this helps, Sharon Wintermute ___ This message is from the Blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info
Re: [Blackbelly] fall lambs
Late June through early October is considered "out-of-season" lambing. Although it is possible to have twins in this period singles are more common. Don't be disappointed, remember most breeds of sheep don't lamb in this period at all! Also, if the ewes are in an accelerated lambing program (three lambings in two years) the likelihood of singles increases. Mark Wintermute OK, I have a question. I live in OK and my girls are starting to lamb. They are having bouncy, healthy, gorgeous babies. Problem. I have not had ewes have singles in years and all my girls are having singles. Is anyone else seeing this. Thanks. OJ in OK Oneta and The Gang ___ This message is from the Blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info
Re: [Blackbelly] Ram Blinders/Shields?
I agree with Cecil I have had several rams that were very intent on killing me. I quit putting up with that aggressive behavior. I have been butchering anything "mean" now for years. My ram pen is now the friendliest group of sheep on the farm. Temperment can be selected for just like everything else. Mark Wintermute Subject: Re: [Blackbelly] Ram Blinders/Shields? If they are that aggressive, they need to go to the butcher shop or the market. Just my 2 cents worth. Cecil in OKla RBMuller wrote: > Talk about rams being abusive to other forms of life or buildings--- > A friend of mine had a real nice American Blackbelly that was real > aggressive-- > The ram KILLED a 3000 lb Santa Gertrudis bull in 4 hits to the bulls belly. ___ This message is from the Blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info
[Blackbelly] Updates
This is a test. It been very quiet lately. Sharon ___ This message is from the Blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info
Re: [blackbelly] QUESTION AND HELP
I agree with Dayna. Sounds like a selenium deficiency. We have a bottle of BOSE injectable (need script from vet) on hand during the wet season that is also our lambing season. We have had to use it twice so far on the lambs. The deficiency really hits them hard and fast. Sharon Wintermute -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Johnson, Oneta Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2007 9:21 AM To: blackbelly@lists.blackbellysheep.info Subject: [blackbelly] QUESTION AND HELP Our 2 orphan babies are about 3 months old and we have had them with the other lambs for about 2 weeks. Even with all the crazy rain they have been doing great. I noticed that the smallest of the 2 was limping on Monday so I separated him and put him in a small pen. I think and hope it is do to the deep mud they have been having to deal with. We have had about 10 inches in 2 weeks in McLoud OK and have been flooding like crazy. Last night the other twin was acting upset so I put him in with his brother. This am he seemed to have stiff, sore back legs. Could they be lacking something that the lambs got from their mommas. Has anyone who have dealt with orphans seen something like this or with lambs that have had a bad start. They are eating and drinking well. I am checking their feet tonight to make sure I did not miss anything but I am open to all suggestions. Thanks oj in McLoud Oneta Johnson McLoud Telephone Company Data Entry/CSR Don't tell GOD what to do, just report for duty! ___ This message is from the blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info ___ This message is from the blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info
Re: [blackbelly] Scrapie found in Wyoming flock
Carol, I couldn't have said it better myself. The other thing that irks me to no end is the: " The rancher knows what will happen: his herd of roughly 300 sheep will be transported live out of state and taken to a slaughter plant where they will be euthanized, their brains and lymph node tissue harvested for testing." So slaughter before you test. That's utterly the "scorched earth" policy. Some people actually do test their flock and what would happen to them? There is so much more I could say but won't. Sharon Wintermute ___ This message is from the blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info
Re: [blackbelly] ewe with swollen uterus and problems standing
I had a feeling this was the direction the ewe was heading. Like Cecil said, diagnosing over the internet with just a little information is very difficult. Mark Wintermute -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Carol J. Elkins Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2007 4:17 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [blackbelly] ewe with swollen uterus and problems standing I'm forwarding this from Jim Fallis regarding his ewe: >Well >Sad end to the latest saga at the Fallis Barbado Farm >We were not able to save the ewe that was down. The twins were born >over the weekend. We had no idea she actually had tripplets. We >discovered her down Tuesday. By that time the dead fetus had began >to decay and swell. We attempted to extract, but just not enough >room and the ewe was too infected by the poision of the decaying fetus. >I had the vet put her down and get her out of her misery. Now I have >2 bottle babies on my hands. They will be loved and cared for very well. >Thanks to all for your interest and mostly your concern and caring. >Jim Fallis >Palmer, Texas ___ This message is from the blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info ___ This message is from the blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info
Re: [blackbelly] ewe with swollen uterus and problems standing
I recommend the following:
Check her temperature for infection (102/103 = Normal) use antibiotics as
needed
Make sure there is not a third fetus inside (usually if there is a dead
fetus there will be gas and smell of rotten flesh). You must physically
enter the uterus usually to remove the fetus and in the process release the
gas. Gloves are highly recommended since there is no nastier procedure that
I know of! It is possible the fetus has decayed to "parts" and cannot be
taken out whole. IF this is the case I usually put the ewe down and raise
bottle babies. I have read where Oxytocin injection will cause the ewe to
expel the dead fetus. This has never worked for me though.
Make sure she is getting enough calories to be supporting her twins and
herself. Being 9 years old maybe she just isn't dominant enough at the feed
trough. Or she possibly has bad teeth requiring special attention to allow
enough time to eat appropriately.
Mark Wintermute
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Carol J.
Elkins
Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2007 9:50 AM
To: blackbelly@lists.blackbellysheep.info
Subject: [blackbelly] ewe with swollen uterus and problems standing
{This message is from Jim Fallis who is having some problems with his
message being posted (HTML text issue).}
I have a ewe that just gave birth to twins. She has always been a
great mother. She is around nine (9) years old.
She and the twins were doing great until I noticed this afternoon she
is not wanting to stand. She can hardly move her back legs. Her
uterous is still swollen. She appears to be in no pain
Any recommendations?
Jim Fallis
Palmer, Texas
___
This message is from the blackbelly mailing list
Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info
___
This message is from the blackbelly mailing list
Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info
Re: [blackbelly] scours, adult sheep
Add some baking soda free choice. If they need it, they will take it. We have also added free choice minerals that have a very low copper/molybdenum and that has cleared up a lot of our problems. The other item we now use is a "sulphur" salt block. I don't remember the purpose, will have Mark tell me again. Sharon -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tracy Wessel Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2007 11:15 PM To: blackbelly@lists.blackbellysheep.info Subject: [blackbelly] scours, adult sheep I appreciate the archives of the list. It would appear I am not alone in having the odd sheep with unexplained scours (adult members of the flock). My flock seems to have a couple members that will get scours at one of their hillside pastures in Oregon. I notice when I moved them for a year, they never got scours, and gained weight. The one or two that will get scours will drop weight. It's a mystery and I'm rather certain it is related to a plant they are eating. It is rather lush pasture. Over the winter they will have hay, cob and beet pulp, salt and a protein/mineral block. I had them on loose minerals, but I was going through so much of them, I was certain the rodents must have been stealing, or that the sheep were just knocking it over. However they have at times had access to the horse mineral block which I have removed and I have some suspicions it's the copper in the block. My concern is to get the weight back on them. I have a ewe bagging up and I I'd rather hoped she was barren because she didn't put on much weight after having scours. If anyone has had some insite into this, I'd love to know. If it were the whole flock, I'd have great concern for disease, nutrition etc. But since it is the odd one or two, I'm rather at a loss. Tracy ___ This message is from the blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info ___ This message is from the blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info
Re: [blackbelly] Need new ram
"Spice" was a large beautiful ram with extensive mane & cape. We bred him to our polled Barbados Blackbelly ewes and all of his sons came out polled. We are very pleased at what he contributed to our flock. One of his sons will be a flock sire for spring 2008. Mark Wintermute -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Sue Miller Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2007 7:57 PM To: blackbelly@lists.blackbellysheep.info Subject: [blackbelly] Need new ram Hi everyone, I was catching up on all the posts to the list serve. Lots going on. We are looking to trade a 9 month old ram for another ram of a different blood line. We are looking for an American Blackbelly ram and possibly a ewe lamb also. The ram we have to trade is 9 months old and has already bred some of our ewes. He is a big fella already, with a huge beard. I'm going to put Wintermute's on the spot here cause they had gotten a ram called Spice from us and he was big also. This ram is out of the same parentage as Spice was. He doesn't really have horns - just scurs but does possess some horned genetics. If there is any one in the Midwest looking for some different stock, especially if they want to put some size into theri flock- this would be the ram for it. Also on the question of preparing a skull - Ted is a taxidermist and the skulls have to be boiled with a special chemical to erode the meat fromthe skull. Believe me - you don't want to do this in an enclosed area as the smell is horrid Then there is another chemical that is used to bleach it out. We have done several what they call "european " mounts for people and this is the process. Also as far as tanning companies, we have used New Method in California but they only work with taxidermists. Lately we have been using Wildlife Fur Dressing out of Ceres, Ca. and they are great. There web site is www.wildlifefur.com. We always get our own hides back. Carol gave great instructions on preparing a hide to send for tanning. We have had some beautiful hides from Blackbelly sheep and they seem to go pretty fast when people see them. Thanks for all the great reading and info. Sorry to hear about those having difficulties with coyotes - that would be so dissappointing. Hope you get the problem under control. Sue Miller _ Interest Rates near 39yr lows! $430,000 Mortgage for $1,399/mo - Calculate new payment http://www.lowermybills.com/lre/index.jsp?sourceid=lmb-9632-18466&moid=7581 ___ This message is from the blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info ___ This message is from the blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info
Re: [blackbelly] postings
We have one Great Pyr we raised from a pup. He is great. We "rescued" some llamas and the male (after he was neutered) is the best type of guard we could hope for. The baby that was born here on our property does good. Seems like only the mom can't stand the sheep. She turns her nose up, but at least she doesn't hurt them. Sharon -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of helen Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2007 6:26 PM To: blackbelly@lists.blackbellysheep.info Subject: Re: [blackbelly] postings We have had blackbelly sheep for 36 years. Some of our first were mixed with Florida native [whatever that is supposed to be] and have never had any problems with coyotes. Just some "retrained guard dogs" once and a few years ago a Rottwieller (sp?). I can't afford to buy a Llama or donkey for that matter. I am on a very fixed income and Llamas here are sky high. A dog has to be raised with the sheep, so that would be out, too.Some people around here have Great Pyrenees ... but these were strays they took in and they think I will pay $350. for one? I think not. Our double barrel shotgun and patience are all we have, I think. - Original Message - From: "john & judy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2007 5:30 PM Subject: Re: [blackbelly] postings p.s. on that last post. get a donkey or llama. I have both and they will both run a coyote down and kill it. You have to be proactive to take care of your flock ___ This message is from the blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info ___ This message is from the blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info
Re: [blackbelly] postings
I believe stolen livestock is a relevant topic Oneta. I had two ewes stolen from my barnyard from lighted locked pens last year. And my dog was killed for apparently protecting my sheep. I am interested in how others deal with this situation. I am looking for another dog but it takes usually years (at least if it is a puppy) to get a dog that can handle serious threats and realize the sheep are "his" property! I had some people get upset when I refused to sell them some breeding ewes right before my ewes were stolen. I wish I had gotten their name and address now! Coyotes are easy compared to two legged varmints! Mark Wintermute I am sorry if I offended anyone on the list for posting about the stolen horse. Thanks. Oneta in OK ___ ___ This message is from the blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info
Re: [blackbelly] market for sheep skulls
Oneta, I found someone here locally that tans deer hides and he is willing to tan mine for the fun of it. Check with some of your local hunters. They may know of someone who can tan it for you. Sharon -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Johnson, Oneta Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 10:20 AM To: blackbelly@lists.blackbellysheep.info Subject: Re: [blackbelly] market for sheep skulls I use eBay a lot. Get a lot of my horse equipment, college books, etc. there. I also sell some. I use Papal only to buy and sell. You have a safety net that way. They will take care of you. I have had to file one time through pay pal and they got it fixed. I have never sold a skull though. For one thing, how do you clean it up. I will be butchering one here pretty soon and was going to let them toss it. Now I will keep it and the rug too. Now my question is. How do I clean the skull and how do I prepare the hide to ship for tanning. I also need some places that do tanning. I do not think we have any here in Oklahoma. Everyone I talked to said they ship or do it themselves. Any ideas. OJ in OK Oneta Johnson McLoud Telephone Company Data Entry/CSR Don't tell GOD what to do, just report for duty! ___ This message is from the blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info ___ This message is from the blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info
Re: [blackbelly] Blackbelly sheep, etc.
Hi there, We are in Kansas near Kansas City and we have a commercial size ranch here. We have over 300 ewes of which over 50% are Barbados Blackbelly. We sell nearly all of ours to the local Kansas City market for meat. This year we are starting to contact restaurants in the area and sell directly to them. Mark & Sharon Wintermute -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Beth or Garland Stamper Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2007 9:19 PM To: blackbelly@lists.blackbellysheep.info Subject: Re: [blackbelly] Blackbelly sheep, etc. DANA CLICKENGER wrote: >I live in Southern Idaho and currently have 4 Blackbelly's". I have read >that they are not grown comercially due to their slow growth weight and >since they are "hair" sheep, fiber is out as well. >Are most of you raising them as a hobby? > > ___ This message is from the blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info
Re: [blackbelly] lamb weights
Most of my lambs are weaned at 60 days here. This is provided that they weigh at least 25 pounds, are eating hay & grain well, and are showing robust health & energy. By weaning at 60 days the ewes have a chance to recover body condition better. I have several ewes that don't hold anything back for themselves when milking lambs. I have been on an accelerated lambing schedule with my ewes breeding back at about 6 weeks after lambing. I took a real beating at the market last year and have been revising my sheep operation. Those lambs that were ready for market between May and December I was practically giving away! So I am planning a late spring lambing program starting in 2008. The key to this strategy is once per year lambing with more emphasis on multiple births (twins or better). Since I am not worried about breeding back I can extend the lactation and weaning date. It makes sense that the longer the lambs are on the ewe the higher their ADG will be. My question to the group here is what ages do you normally wean your lambs. And what is the normal age of weaning when the ewes are allowed to wean their lambs without intervention. The only ewes that have weaned their lambs voluntarily in my operation were having health issues. It would be interesting to see what lambs ADG would be if they were weaned at 120 days! Mark Wintermute ___ This message is from the blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info
Re: [blackbelly] Lamb Weights, Ram Pens, Etc.
Hi Barb, I know you don't shovel concentrate into your lambs. And I have the same problem with my pasture's nutrition. The 120 day benchmark is mostly established for the faster growing breeds. One pound per day is being achieved by many breeders. This would put their lambs ready for market at 120 days. The Blackbelly breeds are a slower growing lamb. So my strategy would be to have an 82 pound lamb ready for market in 240 days. So (82#-7.5# birth weight)/240 days = .31lb/day ADG It would be great to have 60 day, 120 day, 180 day, and 240 day benchmarks. Since we know the growth rates slow as the lamb gets older. Many breeders break the ADG into two categories: pre-weaning & post-weaning. This is helpful but still mostly steered towards the faster growing sheep. All I am trying to stress is between 120 days and 240 days there will be lambs that out grow the others. Most of these lambs will be the same ones that were doing well at 120 days of age. But there will be some that didn't quite measure up at 120 days that are superior at 240 days. If I were to guess it is mostly those lambs from multiple births. I have a ram now that I wished dearly I had kept detailed records on. He was born in April 2005 and is still growing. I do not have a scale capable of weighing him at this time. It would take two husky men to lift him off the ground! He dwarfs my 150 pound rams at this time. He is a mixed crossbreed that is 50% Barbados Blackbelly. I remember him as being a good looking lamb but sure wish I had charted his growth rate! I castrate most lambs at birth and more at weaning. From that point on I castrate as undesirable traits manifest. This is my version of "Survival". It is interesting to see which rams get left "On the island". The final elimination is in the spring after shedding their winter coats. You don't want to be the ram still wearing a winter coat in June! This is a great discussion! I would like to hear more about when others market their lambs in regards to weights and age! Mark Wintermute -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Barb Lee Sent: Saturday, January 27, 2007 9:38 PM To: blackbelly@lists.blackbellysheep.info Subject: Re: [blackbelly] Lamb Weights, Ram Pens, Etc. > I am cautious about making judgments on breeding stock at 120 days > using > ADG. Some lamb operations are feeding 3 pounds of corn per lamb per > day to > achieve their ADG. The hay is fed out just enough to keep the lamb > from > scouring. I feed grain as a supplement to the hay, not the other way > around. I feel it is important to look at the feeding regimen an > operation > is doing to meet their ADG requirement. Mark, it's a given that the ADG should reflect the environment in which the farmer expects to raise the animals. I do not feed for maximum gain. I don't shovel 20% concentrate into the lambs. Instead I feed for the type of environment I expect to provide long term, and that will ultimately be 100% grassfed. My problem is that my pasture is not in good enough condition to support the animals without supplementation. Especially at this time of year, when my grass registers a brix reading of 3-5, when it needs to be 13 to provide the needed energy for the animals. > Your 111 pound ram at 12 months assuming a 7.5# birth weight has a ADG > of > roughly .28lb/day. I know that 111 pounds is pretty good for a > Barbados > Blackbelly or American Blackbelly yearling. But focusing on .28lb/day > ADG > sounds disappointing. But Mark, the animal gained an average of .42 up to 103 days of age. My objective is to hit the .4 lb ADG ONLY UP TO 120 days. That's when I make my decision on whether to castrate. And ADG is only ONE aspect of that decision, as I've tried to make clear. We both agree that the lambs taper off in gains after 4 months or so, so long term gain isn't really an issue. So we just have to add up all the things that are important to us individually, and make our culling decisions. I may change direction downstream, but for now, this is just my personal guideline . Thanks for all the great input! Barb ___ This message is from the blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info ___ This message is from the blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info
