Re: Fwd: Moderation

[Doug]

For those of you  targeted by Jeroen's website, you might try appealing 
to YahooGeoCities  at http://geocities.yahoo.com/v/alert.html

The Terms of  Service are at:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/geoterms.html

And include the following:

You agree to not use the Service to:
(a) upload, post or otherwise transmit any Content that is unlawful, 
harmful, threatening, abusive, harassing, tortious, defamatory, vulgar, 
obscene, libelous, invasive of another's privacy, hateful, or racially, 
ethnically or otherwise objectionable;

Doug


___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

Filtering the Digests (Was: Re: Fwd: Moderation)

[Jon Gabriel]

Erik wrote:

Basically, it is a weird form of terrorism, or at least harrassment,
that Jeroen is doing now with Brin-L.com. I think people should be
free to post what they want to Brin-L.com, AS LONG AS OTHERS ARE
FREE TO IGNORE THEM. What Jeroen is doing on Brin-L.com cannot be
ignored by some people, whose lives could be affected. With power comes
responsibility, and maintaining the website Brin-L.com gives Jeroen
power. Too bad he doesn't have any sense of responsibility.


Erik, (or anyone else with sufficient computer expertise), would you be so 
kind as to help resolve a problem I've been having?  Digest users, by 
definition, cannot filter their messages from the list.  Do you have any 
suggestions as to how filtering the digests might be accomplished 
effectively?  I'd much prefer to receive my listmail that way, but have been 
forced to receive a flood of individual mails since I can't filter the 
digest.

I believe this would also serve the rest of the list, since as of now, 
digest users aren't free to ignore, sort or killfile their list mail and 
must receive (and read) whatever is sent to the list.

Can you suggest any other constructive recourse?
I'd greatly appreciate it.
Thanks in advance,
Jon

_
Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. 
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail

___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

Re: Humor: Hu's on First

[Medievalbk]

In a message dated 11/22/2002 10:20:31 PM US Mountain Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

<< Eccles posted this on Culture.  I'm sure it's gonna offend *somebody*
 :-)
 Jon >>

Yes. There is only one Eccles and he is on alt.fan.goons

..and he has no culture.

William Taylor
--
I already got this in email from an old armourer.
And the premise is just recycled Dung.
___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

Re: A statement without moderation

[Medievalbk]

In a message dated 11/22/2002 10:29:10 PM US Mountain Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

<< >All Pila are left handed and the pictures in Contacting Aliens 
 >provide the proof.
 >
 >William Taylor
 >-
 >Not what you were expecting, was it?
 
 It was exactly what I was expecting.  Another arcane observation on the 
Uplift universe.  :)
 
 Jim
  >>
Now the hard part. Was this just happenstance because that was the way that 
Lenagh drew them, or is there a secret agenda to only be revealed at a later 
date as part of a crucial plot twist?

Who is going to believe in the conspiracy of the left, and who is going to 
state that art is only for art's sake?

William Taylor
-
If two Soro fought each other mating claw to
mating claw, how could we write the scene so
that the fight would be in mud or Jello?
___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

RE: A statement without moderation

[Jim Sharkey]

>All Pila are left handed and the pictures in Contacting Aliens 
>provide the proof.
>
>William Taylor
>-
>Not what you were expecting, was it?

It was exactly what I was expecting.  Another arcane observation on the Uplift 
universe.  :)

Jim

___
Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com
The most personalized portal on the Web!
___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

A statement without moderation

[Medievalbk]

All Pila are left handed and the pictures in Contacting Aliens provide the 
proof.

William Taylor
-
Not what you were expecting, was it?
___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

Humor: Hu's on First

[Jon Gabriel]

Eccles posted this on Culture.  I'm sure it's gonna offend *somebody*
:-)
Jon




Playwright Jim Sherman wrote this after Hu Jintao was named chief of the 
Communist Party in China.

  HU'S ON FIRST By James Sherman

(We take you now to the Oval Office.)

George:  Condi!  Nice to see you.  What's happening?

Condi:   Sir, I have the report here about the new leader of China.

George:  Great.  Lay it on me. Condi:   Hu is the new leader of China. 
George:  That's what I want to know. Condi:   That's what I'm telling you. 
George:  That's what I'm asking you.  Who is the new leader of China? 
Condi:   Yes. George:  I mean the fellow's name. Condi:   Hu. George:  The 
guy in China. Condi:   Hu. George:  The new leader of China. Condi:   Hu. 
George:  The Chinaman! Condi:   Hu is leading China. George:  Now whaddya' 
asking me for? Condi:   I'm telling you Hu is leading China. George:  Well, 
I'm asking you.  Who is leading China? Condi:   That's the man's name. 
George:  That's who's name? Condi:   Yes. George:  Will you or will you not 
tell me the name of the new leader of China? Condi:   Yes, sir. George:  
Yassir?  Yassir Arafat is in China? I thought he was in the Middle East. 
Condi:   That's correct. George:  Then who is in China? Condi:   Yes, sir. 
George:  Yassir is in China? Condi:   No, sir. George:  Then who is? Condi: 
  Yes, sir. George:  Yassir? Condi:   No, sir. George:  Look, Condi.I need 
to know the name of the
new leader of China.

Get me the Secretary General of the U.N. on the phone. Condi:   Kofi? 
George:  No, thanks. Condi:   You want Kofi? George:  No. Condi:   You 
don't want Kofi. George:  No.  But now that you mention it, I could
use a glass of milk.

 And then get me the U.N. Condi:   Yes, sir. George:  Not Yassir!  
The guy at the U.N. Condi:   Kofi? George:  Milk!  Will you please make the 
call? Condi:   And call who? George:  Who is the guy at the U.N? Condi:   
Hu is the guy in China. George:  Will you stay out of China?! Condi:   Yes, 
sir. George:  And stay out of the Middle East!  Just get
me the guy at the

U.N. Condi:   Kofi. George:  All right!  With cream and two sugars. Now

get on the phone.

(Condi picks up the phone.) Condi:   Rice, here. George:  Rice?  Good idea. 
 And a couple of egg
rolls, too.  Maybe we

should send some to the guy in China.  And the Middle

East. Can you get

Chinese food in the Middle East?





_
Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online 
http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963

___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

Re: Fwd: Moderation

[Dan Minette]

- Original Message -
From: "Nick Arnett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, November 22, 2002 10:52 PM
Subject: RE: Fwd: Moderation



> Let me clarify one thing.  John only requested (not demanded)
intervention,
> without asking for any specific action.  Julia and I decided what
> intervention seemed appropriate.  When I reviewed both of their recent
> messages, I decided what it was and Julia concurred.  And as I wrote to
> Jeroen, using moderation is something we are greatly reluctant to do.

Thanks for correcting me, Nick.  I know it must have been a difficult
decision. Among other things, its more work for you.

Dan M.


___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

Re: Fwd: Moderation

[Jim Sharkey]

Jon Gabriel wrote:
>Oh this is nothing, you should have been here a few months ago!!! 

Oh, I was here.  But no one got moderated even in that meltdown.  And after the "fresh 
start," I though things would be a little cooler.

>>it's like he lacks that internal voice that says "OK, time to drop 
>>it."

>And do you think John G. does?  I'm merely curious -- not terribly >eager to debate 
>about it.

He seems to have figured it out first, at least.

>If I understand the situation, John G did not decide Jeroen had to 
>go, any more than by making a call for me to be moderated, Jeroen 
>has decided I have to go.  The decision to act is up to Julia and 
>Nick.  John asked for an administrative decision, and they made 
>one. They could just as easily said "no" rather than take action. 
>I'm making assumptions here, but I think they're accurate.  (You 
>could probably ask them if I'm right or not.)

I'm sure they will pipe in, but JVB seemed to think John wasn't alone.

Jim

___
Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com
The most personalized portal on the Web!
___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

RE: Brin-l.com

[Gary Nunn]

Rob wrote
> Seems to be down at the moment.


BBB. Thanks for playing. It's back.  :-)
___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

RE: Fwd: Moderation

[Nick Arnett]

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On
> Behalf Of Jim Sharkey

...

> That was my point.  I wanted to know who else did this, since
> Jeroen seemed to indicate JDG wasn't the only one who called for it.

Further clarification -- the other complaints were on the list.  No one else
complained off-list.

However, anyone who thinks we took this action simply because John asked us
to is quite wrong.  We're looking at the larger picture.

Nick

___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

RE: Fwd: Moderation

[Nick Arnett]

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On
> Behalf Of Dan Minette
> Sent: Friday, November 22, 2002 8:05 PM

...

> Further, what was John supposed to do?  He decided not to reply to Jeroen,
> and Jeroen posted a number of emails on the list stating how bad  John is
> in response.  John tried answering him off list, and his answers were
> posted on list. If you look at the quotes on Jeroen's own web site, you
> will see multiple personal attacks over the last few weeks. So, John asked
> that the emails be moderated, and the ones with personal attacks be
> stopped, and the ones without put through.

Let me clarify one thing.  John only requested (not demanded) intervention,
without asking for any specific action.  Julia and I decided what
intervention seemed appropriate.  When I reviewed both of their recent
messages, I decided what it was and Julia concurred.  And as I wrote to
Jeroen, using moderation is something we are greatly reluctant to do.

Nick

___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

Re: Fwd: Moderation

[Jim Sharkey]

Dan Minette wrote:

>Futhermore what was John supposed to do?  He decided not to reply 
>to Jeroen, and Jeroen posted a number of emails on the list stating 
>how bad John is in response.  John tried answering him off list, 
>and his answers were posted on list. If you look at the quotes on 
>Jeroen's own web site, you will see multiple personal attacks over 
>the last few weeks. So, John asked that the emails be moderated, 
>and the ones with personal attacks be stopped, and the ones without 
>put through.

>Given the number of personal attacks, is that really out of line?  
>If JDG's posts and Jeroens were both subject to identical filters, 
>ow many of each would go through?  Indeed, how many of your posts 
>and mine would go through? Would we be hit more than once in a 
>great while, and then be a little sheepish about having a post 
>bounced back?

>Finally, I think that if one targets JDG for being part of the 
>problem when he ignores Jeroen or kept his replies offlist, one 
>needs to come up with a good alternate plan. Since you see some 
>symetry between Jeroen and JDG here, I'd like to ask: If you want 
>to suggest a course of action for JDG, what should it be?

Dan, you so completely missed my point I barely know where to start.  Maybe I wasn't 
clear enough.  My point is that John shouldn't be the only one who decides Jeroen gets 
moderated.

Yes, John has absolutely trid to defuse the situation, this time.  And yes, there's no 
reason he shouldn't have asked for Jeroen's moderation.  But their animus extend for a 
*long* time before that, and just because JDG wised up before JVB doesn't mean he 
doesn't share at least a little of the blame.  And JVB shouldn't be moderated solely 
on JDG's say so.

That was my point.  I wanted to know who else did this, since Jeroen seemed to 
indicate JDG wasn't the only one who called for it.

Jim

___
Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com
The most personalized portal on the Web!
___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

Brin-l.com

[Robert Seeberger]

Seems to be down at the moment.


xponent
Not Unexpected Maru
rob


___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

Re: Fwd: Moderation

[Jon Gabriel]

From: "Jim Sharkey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Fwd: Moderation
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 22:25:10 -0500 (EST)


Hi Jim,


Jesus Christ on a pogo stick.  WTF is going on here?



Oh this is nothing, you should have been here a few months ago!!! :-)


I can't even begin to describe how dumb this whole thing has been.  On the 
one hand, Jeroen seems to have simply no idea when to stop or the capacity 
to see he *might* be doing something wrong; it's like he lacks that 
internal voice that says "OK, time to drop it."

And do you think John G. does?  I'm merely curious -- not terribly eager to 
debate about it.


But on the other, how does John get to decide he has to go?  (Ironic in 
light of JVB's repeated calls for John's removal.)  That is, who else made 
this request?  Let's be transparent here, and show some hands.  If you felt 
that strongly about it, be open.

If I understand the situation, John G did not decide Jeroen had to go, any 
more than by making a call for me to be moderated, Jeroen has decided I have 
to go.  The decision to act is up to Julia and Nick.  John asked for an 
administrative decision, and they made one. They could just as easily said 
"no" rather than take action. I'm making assumptions here, but I think 
they're accurate.  (You could probably ask them if I'm right or not.)

And, since you asked, for the record: I did not make any such request, and 
(I believe) haven't communicated with either Julia or Nick offlist since I 
signed on to this new server.

I did, however, make public requests onlist (not off) that Jeroen be removed 
as listmoderator several times in the past 12-18 months before it was done.  
I felt that threatening listmembers was inappropriate behavior on his part.  
I still feel that _anyone_ who mailbombs _any_ mail list shows a profound 
lack of respect for the people on that list, no matter how they attempt to 
justify their actions.

My own personal reaction to Jeroen's behavior as listmoderator towards other 
listmembers was one of several reasons I left Brin-L earlier this year.  Do 
I think he should be moderated?  I believe the evidence presented that he 
had launched personal attacks wasn't taken out of context, but am currently 
undecided if this is the best course or method of action.  I would 
definitely not agree with it if it were to last more than a few days or 
become permanent with no further violations on his part.

And Jeroen, if you're reading this, putting John's info on your site was 
messed up.  yes, it's public info anyone could get with a phone book; that 
doesn't make it not messed up.


Well it certainly does negate the argument he posed a few months back (if i 
recall correctly) that information posted online can't have real life 
consequences. (I may be remembering what he said incorrectly tho.  Feel free 
to correct me if I'm wrong!)

It also makes me wonder if he would do the same to me in revenge for 
perceived personal attacks.  (assuming of course, that my (or my wife's) 
personal information were widely available online.

I also wonder if his current cover page violates his ISP's Terms of Service. 
 (Just a thought.)

Jon
IAAMOAC

_
Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. 
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail

___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

Re: Fwd: Moderation

[Dan Minette]

- Original Message -
From: "Jim Sharkey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, November 22, 2002 9:25 PM
Subject: Re: Fwd: Moderation


>
> Jesus Christ on a pogo stick.  WTF is going on here?
>
> I can't even begin to describe how dumb this whole thing has been.  On
the one hand, Jeroen seems to have simply no idea when to stop or the
capacity to see he *might* be doing something wrong; it's like he lacks
that internal voice that says "OK, time to drop it."
>
> But on the other, how does John get to decide he has to go?

But, Jeroen has posted more on list since he was put on moderation than
JDG.  All he has to do is refrain from statments like his signature

Jeroen "The only good Giorgis is a silent Giorgis" van Baardwijk.

I can find scores of examples of personal attacks like this from Jeroen
from the last month. Do you have any examples of recent posts of JDG that
have similar personal attacks? IMHO, "your ideas don't hold water
because" is not a personal attack.


Further, what was John supposed to do?  He decided not to reply to Jeroen,
and Jeroen posted a number of emails on the list stating how bad  John is
in response.  John tried answering him off list, and his answers were
posted on list. If you look at the quotes on Jeroen's own web site, you
will see multiple personal attacks over the last few weeks. So, John asked
that the emails be moderated, and the ones with personal attacks be
stopped, and the ones without put through.

Given the number of personal attacks, is that really out of line?  If JDG's
posts and Jeroens were both subject to identical filters, how many of each
would go through?  Indeed, how many of your posts and mine would go
through? Would we be hit more than once in a great while, and then be a
little sheepish about having a post bounced back?

Finally, I think that if one targets JDG for being part of the problem when
he ignores Jeroen or kept his replies offlist, one needs to come up with a
good alternate plan. Since you see some symetry between Jeroen and JDG
here, I'd like to ask: If you want to suggest a course of action for JDG,
what should it be?

Dan M.



___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

Yahoo Web Beacons & member tracking

[Gary Nunn]

Just ran across this from a trusted source and found it to be absolutely
true.  Follow the link below, read about Yahoo's newest web tracking policy
and then decide if you want to opt out.

Gary

PS - I don't usually forward on warning messages, but after looking into the
validity of this information, I felt that it was worth passing along to
other Yahoo users.


 + + + + forwarded message + + + +

Yahoo is now using something called "Web Beacons" to track Yahoo
Group users around the net and see what you're doing - similar to
cookies. Take a look at their updated privacy statement:
http://privacy.yahoo.com/privacy/us/pixels/details.html

Notice the "Success" message at the top of the next page.
Be careful because on that page there is a "Cancel Opt-out"
button that, if clicked, will *undo* the opt-out.


___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

Re: Fwd: Moderation

[Jon Gabriel]

From: "J. van Baardwijk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED],[EMAIL PROTECTED],[EMAIL PROTECTED], 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Fwd: Moderation
Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 00:43:18 +0100

At 17:17 22-11-2002 -0500, Jon Gabriel wrote:

Corrupted-World-of-Brin-L Website:   
http://www.Brin-L.com

Gee, what a surprise. How constructive.


This statement is obviously a personal attack by Jon against me. I 
therefore demand that Jon be put on moderation immediately. (After all, 
friendlier comments than his have been labeled "personal attack", so his 
comment also qualifies as one.)

Haven't read the rest of this thread, but I suppose I'll respond here.

I referred to your behavior, and not to you personally, as I'm pretty sure 
you're aware. Please be specific about how the above quote is a personal 
attack.  If your explanation makes sense, perhaps I'll apologize in a 
civilized manner.

By the way, to both Julia and Nick, by all means, please feel free to 
examine my behavior of say, the past month or so to see if I qualify for 
moderation.  I try to take criticism constructively and will be happy to try 
and change if your reasoning towards moderation is justified. :)

Jon
GSV IAAMOAC

_
Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. 
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail

___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

Re: Fwd: Moderation

[Jim Sharkey]

Jesus Christ on a pogo stick.  WTF is going on here?

I can't even begin to describe how dumb this whole thing has been.  On the one hand, 
Jeroen seems to have simply no idea when to stop or the capacity to see he *might* be 
doing something wrong; it's like he lacks that internal voice that says "OK, time to 
drop it."

But on the other, how does John get to decide he has to go?  (Ironic in light of JVB's 
repeated calls for John's removal.)  That is, who else made this request?  Let's be 
transparent here, and show some hands.  If you felt that strongly about it, be open.

And Jeroen, if you're reading this, putting John's info on your site was messed up.  
yes, it's public info anyone could get with a phone book; that doesn't make it not 
messed up.

Jim

___
Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com
The most personalized portal on the Web!
___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

Re: English question, Re: DING!

[Doug]

Sonja van Baardwijk-Holten wrote:


Doug wrote:


I suggest a better way to deal with this kind of behavior is to ignore it

completely, excepting extreme cases.



Now my English isn't that good. But somehow I feel that use of excepting is
wrong here? I'd have used exempting or something else entirely but never
excepting. Althought the meaning is correct, it somehow doesn't look right
to me. Anyone?


I'm no English major, but I think the my usage is proper. 
http://www.xrefer.com/entry/593138

Doug


___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

corporations = evil

[The Fool]

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/96766_privacy22.shtml
___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

Re: Fwd: Moderation

[Dan Minette]

- Original Message -
From: "Richard Baker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, November 22, 2002 5:43 PM
Subject: Re: Fwd: Moderation


> I said:
>
> > What I don't understand is why Jeroen doesn't set up an alternative
> > ("pure"?) Brin-L on a server of his choice and allow people (including
> > lurkers) to vote on which they prefer by subscribing or not to the two
> > lists.
>
> I know it's bad form replying to my own messages, but I want to make
> very clear that this suggestion should in no sense be seen as casting
> aspersions on Nick and Julia's ownership of Brin-L. I think they're
> both doing a wonderful job in difficult circumstances, and I very much
> appreciate the hard work that they're putting into Brin-L.

Well, the message was clear to me from the beginning.  It sounded to me as
though you were thinking like a physicist.  Jeroen has argued on occasion
that a list run his way would be more appreciated.  This gives folks a
chance to vote with their feet.  And, since they don't have to leave this
list for the other, folks can try it both ways, if so desired, to see what
they really preferred.

So, if lotsa folks joined the first reformed church of Brin-L, then Jeroen
will have the list he wants.  If not, he will at least have worthwhile
feedback.


Dan M.



___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

Re: Brooklyn Bridge? (Was: Re: scouted: EU wants to ban cig ads)

[Medievalbk]

In a message dated 11/22/2002 6:21:06 PM US Mountain Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

<< >(Sorry - I'm not making fun of your misfortune - it's just the whole 
 >desert shrimp
 >thing puzzles/amuses me greatly.)
 
 
 
 Shrimp in the desert:
 
 <>
 
 
 Unfortunately, it can lead to this (item #10):
 
 
<> >>

I'd be more afraid if the "e" was dropped. Dr. Brin merged with Harlan 
Ellison. Yikes!

Oh. Here is the AZ shrimp farm:

http://www.desertsweetshrimp.com/

William Taylor
-
Never eat da stuff
___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

Re: Fwd: Moderation & Dinging Suggestion

[Alberto Monteiro]

Deborah Harrell wrote:
>
>This is a lamentable situation.   :(
>
>Since I have recently been deleting several
>threads/posters, I was going to suggest
>
(blah blah blah)

You know that suggesting anything to anyone is
useless, don't you? It requires too much faith in
Humanity to expect that suggestions will be
followed.

Wait!!! WTF am I doing? I am suggesting something!!!
Maybe I should ding myself for that!!!

Alberto Monteiro


___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

Re: jackson & cancer

[Deborah Harrell]

--- The Fool <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> A Photographic History of Michael Jackson's Face:
> http://anomalies-unlimited.com/Jackson.html

It's too bad that a drug like artemisinin can't cure
whatever cancer of the soul this sad creature has...
and I can only wish their own handiwork on those who
midwifed this monstrosity.

Debbi

__
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus – Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
http://mailplus.yahoo.com
___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

Re: Brooklyn Bridge? (Was: Re: scouted: EU wants to ban cig ads)

[Ronn Blankenship]

At 10:49 PM 11/21/02, Bryon Daly wrote:

William Taylor ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) writes:
>... Two out of three investors who were going to raise shrimp on desert 
land ...

You had people ready to invest in raising shrimp on desert land?  Aren't 
they sea
creatures?  If you can sell investors on that, maybe you can make a living 
selling the
Brooklyn Bridge or Florida swampland!  :-)

(Sorry - I'm not making fun of your misfortune - it's just the whole 
desert shrimp
thing puzzles/amuses me greatly.)



Shrimp in the desert:

<>


Unfortunately, it can lead to this (item #10):

<>




--Ronn! :)

I always knew that I would see the first man on the Moon.
I never dreamed that I would see the last.
--Dr. Jerry Pournelle


___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

Re: Fwd: Moderation & Dinging Suggestion

[Deborah Harrell]

You wrote:
> FOR YOUR INFORMATION.
 
> >With Julia's agreement, we have placed your Brin-L
> subscriptions on
> >moderation.  We take this action with great
> reluctance, 


This is a lamentable situation.   :(

Since I have recently been deleting several
threads/posters, I was going to suggest that one way
to handle "dinging" was to publicly killfile, ie.
announce "I am temporarily killfiling So-and-So for
profanity/personal attacks/flaming."  Maybe if a
person found out that X number of listmembers were
killfiling him/her, they would modify their own
behavior.  At least, I'd hope so.

Debbi

__
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus – Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
http://mailplus.yahoo.com
___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

Re: Brooklyn Bridge? (Was: Re: scouted: EU wants to ban cig ads)

[Medievalbk]

In a message dated 11/22/2002 5:25:43 PM US Mountain Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

<< 
 > I still want that Irish harp concert in the Big
 Room.
 
 Ooh, imagine a pipe band there!  (But they'd have to
 bring their own haggis, which would taste better than
 the lunchroom sandwiches, as I recall. :P ) >>

A lone piper maybe. A band? Nope. We don't want rocks falling from the 
ceiling.

And no food in the Big Room please. There's too much eco damage already as 
they have cave crickets in the left hand tunnel.

William Taylor
--
I have crumbs in my keyboard.
___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

Re: Brooklyn Bridge? (Was: Re: scouted: EU wants to ban cig ads)

[Deborah Harrell]

--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
[I wrote]:
> << 
>  True.  His name was Dean Smith.  First man to fly
> an airplane into Carlsbad (or so I was told).  >>
> 
> The city or the cave? (**shudder**)

Now that would be something, wouldn't it?  But as far
as I know, his middle name was neither Luke not
Anakin.
  
 

> I still want that Irish harp concert in the Big
Room.

Ooh, imagine a pipe band there!  (But they'd have to
bring their own haggis, which would taste better than
the lunchroom sandwiches, as I recall. :P )

GSV Spelunking

__
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus – Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
http://mailplus.yahoo.com
___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

Re: Brooklyn Bridge? (Was: Re: scouted: EU wants to ban cig ads)

[Deborah Harrell]

--- Dan Minette <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
 
> As another
> aside, the Dodge Dart was a mighty fine car in its
> day.

My first car!  Gold, where the paint still adhered. 
No A/C, no heat, speedometer bounced continuously
between 5 and ~95mph.  I named it "Aiglor" (I was into
naming inanimate objects then), like the Elvish spear,
IIRC.  :)

Thunderbird Tarandur Maru

__
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus – Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
http://mailplus.yahoo.com
___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

Notice

[J. van Baardwijk]

If you do not hear from me for a long time on-list, do not be surprised. 
Nick Arnett is now blocking each and every message I am trying to send to 
the list, regardless of the content. I keep getting messages that claim 
that "Your message was deemed inappropriate by the moderator". No reason is 
given as to *why* he "deems it inappropriate".

Apparently Brin-L is, despite David Brin's wishes, now a moderated list.

I wonder if *this* message will actually make it through...


Jeroen "Of course you realise, this means war" van Baardwijk

__
Corrupted-World-of-Brin-L Website:   http://www.Brin-L.com

___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

Re: Brooklyn Bridge? (Was: Re: scouted: EU wants to ban cig ads)

[Medievalbk]

In a message dated 11/22/02 4:58:21 PM US Mountain Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

<<  As another
 aside, the Dodge Dart was a mighty fine car in its day. >>

But was it good for rounding up frogs?

I love it that our train of thought runs without tracks.

William Taylor
___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

Re: Brooklyn Bridge? (Was: Re: scouted: EU wants to ban cig ads)

[Dan Minette]

- Original Message -
From: "Deborah Harrell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, November 22, 2002 5:13 PM
Subject: Re: Brooklyn Bridge? (Was: Re: scouted: EU wants to ban cig ads)


> --- Dan Minette <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> [I wrote]
> > > My great uncle was talked into trying to raise
> > frogs
> > > on his land near Carlsbad, New Mexico (not quite
> > as
> > > dry as Arizona, but still desert/scrub country);
> > as
> > > recently as ten years ago we still found sections
> > of
> > > 'frog wire fencing' while riding about.
> >
> > Is that story true, or is it just one of the many
> > barbs you try to throw at the list?
>
> True.  His name was Dean Smith.  First man to fly an
> airplane into Carlsbad (or so I was told).  Picasso
> (the Paint horse) nearly threw me off when he
> unexpectedly jumped over a
> nearly-invisible-in-the-brush section of mesh fencing.
>  Dean and Camille's daughter still lives on what's
> left of the property (near Black River Village), as
> does one of their daughters.
>
> Debbi
> who would love to have a Barb, as they are tough
> little horses :)

Actually I didn't know about the horses.  I was mainly thinking that you
should have saved barbs for your poor uncle, so he didn't have to just use
frog wire instead of proper barbed wire. :-)  Also, if you weren't so
unfailingly polite on this list, I would have put a smiley on my comment to
make sure it wasn't misconstrued as a dart to respond to barb...but it
seemed like overkill in what was supposed to be a dry aside.  As another
aside, the Dodge Dart was a mighty fine car in its day.

Dan M.

Dan M.



___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

Re: Brooklyn Bridge? (Was: Re: scouted: EU wants to ban cig ads)

[Medievalbk]

In a message dated 11/22/02 4:47:43 PM US Mountain Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

<< 
 True.  His name was Dean Smith.  First man to fly an
 airplane into Carlsbad (or so I was told).  >>

The city or the cave?
(**shudder**)

I always have fun at Carlsbad Caverns asking the rangers if they've ever had 
to confiscate a skateboard.

[Bart Simpson should do it in a dream and impale himself on a stalagmite.]

I once walked down the entrance so fast I had to slow down as I had met the 
person turning on the lights.

William Taylor
---
I still want that Irish harp concert in the Big Room.
___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

Re: Brooklyn Bridge? (Was: Re: scouted: EU wants to ban cig ads)

[Deborah Harrell]

--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 
>  > My great uncle was talked into trying to raise
> frogs on his land near Carlsbad, New Mexico (not
> > quite as
>  > dry as Arizona, but still desert/scrub country); 
> as
>  > recently as ten years ago we still found sections
> of 'frog wire fencing' while riding about.
>  
>  Is that story true, or is it just one of the many
> barbs you try to throw at the list? >>
> 
> Were the frogs large enough to eat the bats, or did
> the bats eat the frogs?


I'm fairly sure the coyotes found bullfrog legs a
tasty entree on their menu - the venture was of course
a total flop (or plop?).

GSV Guano

__
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus – Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
http://mailplus.yahoo.com
___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

Re: Brooklyn Bridge? (Was: Re: scouted: EU wants to ban cig ads)

[Deborah Harrell]

--- Dan Minette <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
[I wrote]
> > My great uncle was talked into trying to raise
> frogs
> > on his land near Carlsbad, New Mexico (not quite
> as
> > dry as Arizona, but still desert/scrub country); 
> as
> > recently as ten years ago we still found sections
> of
> > 'frog wire fencing' while riding about.
> 
> Is that story true, or is it just one of the many
> barbs you try to throw at the list?

True.  His name was Dean Smith.  First man to fly an
airplane into Carlsbad (or so I was told).  Picasso
(the Paint horse) nearly threw me off when he
unexpectedly jumped over a
nearly-invisible-in-the-brush section of mesh fencing.
 Dean and Camille's daughter still lives on what's
left of the property (near Black River Village), as
does one of their daughters.

Debbi
who would love to have a Barb, as they are tough
little horses :)  (nearly extinct breed now, I read,
although someone is trying to find 'Spanish Barbs'
here in the American west to re-create the breed)

__
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus – Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
http://mailplus.yahoo.com
___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

Re: Brooklyn Bridge? (Was: Re: scouted: EU wants to ban cig ads)

[Medievalbk]

In a message dated 11/22/02 3:39:20 PM US Mountain Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

<<  Original Message -
 From: "Deborah Harrell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 Sent: Friday, November 22, 2002 4:35 PM
 Subject: Re: Brooklyn Bridge? (Was: Re: scouted: EU wants to ban cig ads)
 
 > My great uncle was talked into trying to raise frogs
 > on his land near Carlsbad, New Mexico (not quite as
 > dry as Arizona, but still desert/scrub country);  as
 > recently as ten years ago we still found sections of
 > 'frog wire fencing' while riding about.
 
 Is that story true, or is it just one of the many barbs you try to throw at
 the list? >>

Were the frogs large enough to eat the bats, or did the bats eat the frogs?


...and I live within sight of a ski lift tower.

William Taylor
---
(Let's see if someone takes this bait.)
___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

Re: Fwd: Moderation

[Richard Baker]

I said:

> What I don't understand is why Jeroen doesn't set up an alternative
> ("pure"?) Brin-L on a server of his choice and allow people (including
> lurkers) to vote on which they prefer by subscribing or not to the two
> lists.

I know it's bad form replying to my own messages, but I want to make
very clear that this suggestion should in no sense be seen as casting
aspersions on Nick and Julia's ownership of Brin-L. I think they're
both doing a wonderful job in difficult circumstances, and I very much
appreciate the hard work that they're putting into Brin-L.

Rich
GCU We Should Set Up A Fan-Club

___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

Re: Fwd: Moderation

[Richard Baker]

Erik said:

> Who do you think is the best ISP to use to run a fairly high volume
> email list like Brin-L? How much would the ISP charge, do you think?

The Elench list has occasionally been higher volume than Brin-L and runs
quite happily from YahooGroups (which is, of course, free), so that
would certainly be an option if Jeroen didn't mind adverts. There are
probably also other free listservs with better facilities or which
don't add adverts to each message.

Rich
GCU Just An Idea

___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

Re: Fwd: Moderation

[Erik Reuter]

On Fri, Nov 22, 2002 at 11:29:41PM +, Richard Baker wrote:

> What I don't understand is why Jeroen doesn't set up an alternative
> ("pure"?) Brin-L on a server of his choice and allow people (including
> lurkers) to vote on which they prefer by subscribing or not to the two
> lists.

Who do you think is the best ISP to use to run a fairly high volume
email list like Brin-L? How much would the ISP charge, do you think?


-- 
"Erik Reuter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>   http://www.erikreuter.net/
___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

Re: Fwd: Moderation

[Erik Reuter]

On Fri, Nov 22, 2002 at 06:29:38PM -0500, Erik Reuter wrote:

> free to post what they want to Brin-L.com, AS LONG AS OTHERS ARE FREE
> TO IGNORE THEM. What Jeroen is doing on Brin-L.com cannot be

Ooops, I mean post what they want to the Brin-L email list, not
Brin-L.com


-- 
"Erik Reuter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>   http://www.erikreuter.net/
___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

Re: Fwd: Moderation

[Richard Baker]

Jon said:

> Gee, what a surprise. How constructive.

What I don't understand is why Jeroen doesn't set up an alternative
("pure"?) Brin-L on a server of his choice and allow people (including
lurkers) to vote on which they prefer by subscribing or not to the two
lists.

Rich
VFP Schismatrix

___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

Re: Fwd: Moderation

[Erik Reuter]

On Fri, Nov 22, 2002 at 05:33:52PM -0500, Jon Gabriel wrote:

> In another 'inevitable' move The webmaster at Brin-L.com has once
> again shut the site down.
>
> Jeroen has posted Nick and John's home addresses and e-mails on the
> site.  He also posted John's work address and phone number and Julia's
> e-mail address and asks people to contact the "terrible trio" and
> correct their "American injustice." (paraphrase)
>
> *yawn* Wake me when it's over.

At first, I thought it was wrong that Jeroen was moderated, but seeing
what he has done with Brin-L.com, which is REALLY wrong...well, I
guess I consider the moderation to be a fair (or perhaps too small)
punishment for what he did on Brin-L.com, even if the cause and effect
is backwards.

Basically, it is a weird form of terrorism, or at least harrassment,
that Jeroen is doing now with Brin-L.com. I think people should be
free to post what they want to Brin-L.com, AS LONG AS OTHERS ARE
FREE TO IGNORE THEM. What Jeroen is doing on Brin-L.com cannot be
ignored by some people, whose lives could be affected. With power comes
responsibility, and maintaining the website Brin-L.com gives Jeroen
power. Too bad he doesn't have any sense of responsibility.


-- 
"Erik Reuter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>   http://erikreuter.com/
___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

Re: Fwd: Moderation

[Richard Baker]

Jeroen said:

> Jeroen "Of course you realise, this means war" van Baardwijk

Do these List Wars remind anyone else of the End of the World on
_Buffy_?

Rich
VFP The Apocalypse? Again?!

___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

Re: Brooklyn Bridge? (Was: Re: scouted: EU wants to ban cig ads)

[Dan Minette]

- Original Message -
From: "Deborah Harrell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, November 22, 2002 4:35 PM
Subject: Re: Brooklyn Bridge? (Was: Re: scouted: EU wants to ban cig ads)

> My great uncle was talked into trying to raise frogs
> on his land near Carlsbad, New Mexico (not quite as
> dry as Arizona, but still desert/scrub country);  as
> recently as ten years ago we still found sections of
> 'frog wire fencing' while riding about.

Is that story true, or is it just one of the many barbs you try to throw at
the list?

Dan M.


___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

Re: Fwd: Moderation

[Jon Gabriel]

Dan wrote:

If you don't want to just killfile Jeroen, you can always set a junkmail
flag on his email.  The junkmail can be eliminated all at once, and IIRC
from my hotmail account, it is the first eliminated.


Oh, I did *that* after getting into a slap fight with him over the whole 
"antisemite" thing. You're right, and I forgot... those posts aren't counted 
towards the whole. :)

Thanks for the advice though, Dan. Much obliged.
Jon



_
Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online 
http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963

___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

Re: Brooklyn Bridge? (Was: Re: scouted: EU wants to ban cig ads)

[Deborah Harrell]

--- Bryon Daly <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> William Taylor ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) writes:
> >... Two out of three investors who were going to
> raise shrimp on desert land ...
> 
> You had people ready to invest in raising shrimp on
> desert land?  Aren't they sea
> creatures?  If you can sell investors on that, maybe
> you can make a living selling the
> Brooklyn Bridge or Florida swampland!  :-)

My great uncle was talked into trying to raise frogs
on his land near Carlsbad, New Mexico (not quite as
dry as Arizona, but still desert/scrub country);  as
recently as ten years ago we still found sections of
'frog wire fencing' while riding about.

Haute Cuisine In The Desert Maru

__
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus – Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
http://mailplus.yahoo.com
___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

Re: Fwd: Moderation

[Jon Gabriel]

In another 'inevitable' move The webmaster at Brin-L.com has once again 
shut the site down.

Jeroen has posted Nick and John's home addresses and e-mails on the site.  
He also posted John's work address and phone number and Julia's e-mail 
address and asks people to contact the "terrible trio" and correct their 
"American injustice." (paraphrase)

*yawn*  Wake me when it's over.

Jon
GSV So much for 'IAAMOAC'


_
Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. 
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail

___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

Re: Scouted: Women prefer HDTV to Diamonds???

[Deborah Harrell]

--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
[I wrote:]
> 
> << One of the women did, however,
>  shear her own sheep, carded the wool, spun it into
>  yarn, and wove cloth on her loom... >>
> 
> But did Megan sell her the woad?
> 
> (Inside SCA question)

Oh dear...I could tell you, but then I'd have to place
you upon the Wheel...

(More odd timings of list postings: this and another
showed up today instead of yesterday...)

Farspeaker Leprechauns Maru

__
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus – Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
http://mailplus.yahoo.com
___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

Re: Fwd: Moderation

[Dan Minette]

- Original Message -
From: "Jon Gabriel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, November 22, 2002 4:17 PM
Subject: Re: Fwd: Moderation


> >Jeroen "Of course you realise, this means war" van Baardwijk
>
> Does this threat mean that all of Brin-L should prepare for more mailbomb
> postings from you? I only ask for advance notice because i have a size
limit
> on my Hotmail inbox.

If you don't want to just killfile Jeroen, you can always set a junkmail
flag on his email.  The junkmail can be eliminated all at once, and IIRC
from my hotmail account, it is the first eliminated.

Dan M.


___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

Re: Fwd: Moderation

[Jon Gabriel]

Jeroen "Of course you realise, this means war" van Baardwijk


Does this threat mean that all of Brin-L should prepare for more mailbomb 
postings from you? I only ask for advance notice because i have a size limit 
on my Hotmail inbox.

Corrupted-World-of-Brin-L Website:   http://www.Brin-L.com



Gee, what a surprise. How constructive.

Jon


_
Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE*  
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail

___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

Fwd: Moderation

[J. van Baardwijk]

FOR YOUR INFORMATION.

(I tried to send this to the list a few times already, but Nick Arnett 
keeps refusing to forward it to the list because some of my comments were 
allegedly personal attacks.)

Suffice it to say for now that I find Nick and Julia's action ridiculous 
and unwarranted, demand that this moderation be terminated immediately, and 
demand that Giorgis be removed from this list immediately and permanently.


Jeroen "Of course you realise, this means war" van Baardwijk

__
Corrupted-World-of-Brin-L Website:   http://www.Brin-L.com


Jeroen,

With Julia's agreement, we have placed your Brin-L subscriptions on
moderation.  We take this action with great reluctance, following several
on- and off-list complaints, our evaluation of the their merits and an
appropriate waiting period and consultation with one another.  Please be
assured that we have also considered the complaints you have made in your
on-list postings regarding others' behavior.  Below are the recent things
you have written that we believe constitute personal attacks against another
list member, which we believe justify administrative action.

I am copying this message to John Giorgis, who requested administrative
action.  You, Jeroen, may, if you wish, post this e-mail to the list, should
you desire to bring this action to the entire community's attention.  You
are also welcome to discuss this matter, so long as your postings do not
contain personal attacks or other things that the list community has
determined to be unacceptable.  However, I will not participate in such
discussions, having already made the necessary decision.

--

"But then, there is an awful lot that you do not know. The rules of social
behaviour, for example."

"John, who the fuck do you think you are, demanding that I retract a
statement? You habitually launch personal attacks against other listmembers
but have never apologised to for it; you habitually make the most stupid
and ridiculous claims but refuse to either retract them or back them with
proof; you habitually refuse to answer questions. So, you are obviously not
in any position whatsoever to demand *anything* of *anyone*!

"Now, do the entire Internet community a favour and forever stay away from
any computer that has Internet access."

"But then, you often leave the impression that you do not think, period."

"I am sure that once you have grown up and have become a mature adult, even
you will be able to think of what would constitute acceptable behaviour."

"Jeroen "The only good Giorgis is a silent Giorgis" van Baardwijk"

"But then, correctly interpreting what others write has never been one of
your talents..."

"I agree -- this list would see lot less misery with Giorgis out of the
way."

"I am trying to keep a productive discussion going here, but JDG refuses to
cooperate."

"With an attitude like that, you do not belong in a discussion forum."

"True, but given your attitude, I must now strongly recommend that you
reduce your list time to absolute zero."

"And as usual, JDG tries to take the easy way out...   :-("

"I find it hilarious that *you*, of all people, should complain about
someone
else violating basic Netiquette."

"So, it is obvious *what* he is doing and *why* he is doing it. The only
question now is whether the listowners will fall for this elaborate charade
of his and give him what he wants (my removal from the list), or if they
will see right through it and *not* give him what he wants."

"Then you do not belong in a discussion forum. Go away."

--
Nick Arnett
Phone/fax: (408) 904-7198
[EMAIL PROTECTED]



___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

RE: Retronyms

[Horn, John]

> -Original Message-
> 
> << >"Acoustic Guitar"
>  >"Natural Turf"
>  >"Analog Watch"
>  >"Two-Parent Family"
>  >"Off-Line Publication"
>  >"Kinetic Warfare"
>  >
>  >How many other retronyms can you name? >>
> 

"Personal computer"
"Flatscreen monitor"
"Laser printer"
"Cellular telephone"
"electronic book"
"online comic"
"polite list conversation"

  - jmh
___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

jackson

[The Fool]

A Photographic History of Michael Jackson's Face:
http://anomalies-unlimited.com/Jackson.html

Oh my god!
___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

Re: White House Wages Stealth War on Condoms

[Medievalbk]

In a message dated 11/22/2002 10:54:46 AM US Mountain Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

<<  Someone was
 supposed to attach a rider to keep condoms taxed, but it didn't make it
 on,  >>

They should have used a rough rider.

William Taylor
-
Things that go bump in the night?
___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

Re: TO EVERYONE: Dinging Suggestion

[Medievalbk]

In a message dated 11/22/2002 10:50:58 AM US Mountain Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

<< Reminds me of the habit I was considering getting into, pointing out
that people are most likely to accuse others of habits they themselves
are guilty of.  Kind of a meta-something, but meta-what?  :) >>

How about:

"Yesterday upon the list I meta man who made me pissed.
 He wasn't all there again today. I wish that man would go away."

William Taylor
---
Don't blame me. YEHUDI DID IT!
___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

cancer

[The Fool]

http://www.msnbc.com/news/667259.asp

Chinese folk medicine has yielded a promising new approach for treating
cancer. Using a dash of logic and modern lab techniques, Seattle
scientists have shown that a compound extracted from the wormwood plant
seeks out and destroys breast cancer cells, while leaving healthy cells
unscathed.

___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

RE: TO EVERYONE: Dinging Suggestion

[Nick Arnett]

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On
> Behalf Of Julia Thompson

...

> Reminds me of the habit I was considering getting into, pointing out
> that people are most likely to accuse others of habits they themselves
> are guilty of.  Kind of a meta-something, but meta-what?  :)

It's called projection.  We all do it.

Nick
___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

Re: TO EVERYONE: Dinging Suggestion

[Erik Reuter]

On Fri, Nov 22, 2002 at 12:07:18PM -0600, Dan Minette wrote:

> Its not that simple. One can killfile someone, and then find responses
> to that person containing the very thing one wishes to avoid.  One can
> killfile a thread, but unless one can stop thread creep, that doesn't
> work well also.

Even if I didn't have procmail filtering and message threading, I can
predict with near 100% certainty whether a message is going to have the
type of things that Jon finds annoying just by looking at the subject
and poster of the message, without actually reading it.

If you add in filters and message threading, you can be assured of
almost never reading what annoys you.

And besides, if someone gets so easily annoyed from reading an email
message, I have to wonder if they shouldn't spend some time thinking
about whether they might be able to lighten up a bit and have a happier
life without worrying so much about other's harmless behavior.


-- 
"Erik Reuter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>   http://www.erikreuter.net/
___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

Re: TO EVERYONE: Dinging Suggestion

[Dan Minette]

- Original Message -
From: "Erik Reuter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, November 22, 2002 11:52 AM
Subject: Re: TO EVERYONE: Dinging Suggestion


> On Fri, Nov 22, 2002 at 12:27:50PM -0500, Jon Gabriel wrote:
>
> > I personally find it annoying that when list members ask them to
> > take it offlist, that they seem incapable of doing so.  (It's really
> > annoying to see Jeroen turn verbal acrobatics this morning while
> > trying to justify gross violations of netiquette.)
>
> If it is so annoying, DO NOT READ THE ANNOYING STUFF. Very simple. No
> need to impose your will on others.

Its not that simple. One can killfile someone, and then find responses to
that person containing the very thing one wishes to avoid.  One can
killfile a thread, but unless one can stop thread creep, that doesn't work
well also.

Dan M.


___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

Re: White House Wages Stealth War on Condoms

[Julia Thompson]

"K. Feete" wrote:
> 
> Amusing title and a pretty good information piece. I've been hearing a
> startling amount about various aspects of this issue from various sources
> for the past month or so... opinions?
> 
> http://www.newsday.com/news/opinion/ny-vpcoc143002251nov14,0,7803300.column
> ?coll=ny%2Dviewpoints%2Dheadlines
> 
> White House Wages Stealth War on Condoms
> Marie Cocco
> November 14, 2002



In Texas, pretty much everything but food and prescription medicine had
sales tax on it, and even then some foods had sales tax imposed on them
(e.g., carbonated beverages).  The law was changed during Bush's tenure
as governor to exempt a lot of over-the-counter drugs.  The way it was
worded, the vague blanketing would have exempted condoms.  Someone was
supposed to attach a rider to keep condoms taxed, but it didn't make it
on, and a few people in the governor's office, and for all I know the
comptroller's office, had virtual cows over the whole thing.

Not having bought condoms recently, I don't know if the exemption has
been removed.  (Anyone else know?)

So, this is just another round in the battle of Bush vs. The Condoms. 
(And wasn't his daddy a big pusher of condoms sometime in his political
career before 1980?  I remember something about that, but I could be
remembering wrong.)

Julia
___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

Re: TO EVERYONE: Dinging Suggestion

[Erik Reuter]

On Fri, Nov 22, 2002 at 12:27:50PM -0500, Jon Gabriel wrote:

> I personally find it annoying that when list members ask them to
> take it offlist, that they seem incapable of doing so.  (It's really
> annoying to see Jeroen turn verbal acrobatics this morning while
> trying to justify gross violations of netiquette.)

If it is so annoying, DO NOT READ THE ANNOYING STUFF. Very simple. No
need to impose your will on others.


-- 
"Erik Reuter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>   http://www.erikreuter.net/
___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

Re: Retronyms

[Medievalbk]

In a message dated 11/22/2002 10:17:17 AM US Mountain Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

<< >"Acoustic Guitar"
 >"Natural Turf"
 >"Analog Watch"
 >"Two-Parent Family"
 >"Off-Line Publication"
 >"Kinetic Warfare"
 >
 >How many other retronyms can you name? >>

Flatsigned Autograph
Florescent Lightbulb
Soccer Mom
Bombastic Rush

William Taylor
---
Tight Lipped Attorney?
___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

Re: TO EVERYONE: Dinging Suggestion

[Julia Thompson]

Erik Reuter wrote:
> 
> I suggest whoever brings up policies for suspending people from the list
> because they don't like what they write should be the first recipient of
> the punishment mentioned in their policy. (Not sure what that means I
> would get for this post)
> 
> On Fri, Nov 22, 2002 at 07:44:49AM -0600, Ronn Blankenship wrote:
> 
> > again on-list, both "A" and "B" are immediately suspended from posting
> > for 24 hours for a "cooling-off" period.  If either brings it up
> > again, the cooling-off period is 48 hours, and so forth.

Reminds me of the habit I was considering getting into, pointing out
that people are most likely to accuse others of habits they themselves
are guilty of.  Kind of a meta-something, but meta-what?  :)

Julia
___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

Re: Scouted: Women prefer HDTV to Diamonds???

[Julia Thompson]

Sonja van Baardwijk-Holten wrote:
> 
> Ronn Blankenship wrote:
> 
> > At 03:25 AM 11/20/02, Sonja van Baardwijk-Holten wrote:
> 
> > 
> 
> I so envy you. :o)
> 
> > >What do you give a guy that isn't a crack-ass DIY-er?
> >
> > A book on "Home Repair for Absolute Beginners"?
> > ;-)
> 
> That would mean I'd be prepared to let Jeroen use my tools wouldn't it?
> 
> Sonja
> Bloodbath eminent maru

Get him his own set of tools, starting with things it would be harder to
hurt himself with.  :)

Julia

The Electric Screwdriver Is Mine, The Drill Is His Maru
___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

Re: TO EVERYONE: Dinging Suggestion

[Jon Gabriel]

From: Erik Reuter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: TO EVERYONE:  Dinging Suggestion
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 08:51:24 -0500

I suggest whoever brings up policies for suspending people from the list
because they don't like what they write should be the first recipient of
the punishment mentioned in their policy. (Not sure what that means I
would get for this post)

On Fri, Nov 22, 2002 at 07:44:49AM -0600, Ronn Blankenship wrote:

> again on-list, both "A" and "B" are immediately suspended from posting
> for 24 hours for a "cooling-off" period.  If either brings it up
> again, the cooling-off period is 48 hours, and so forth.

--
"Erik Reuter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>   http://www.erikreuter.net/
___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l



I doubt you'll agree with this considering your personal views on censorship 
vs., freedom of speech, but it's less a matter of WHAT they write, and more 
a matter of preventing chaos from overwhelming us again.  I personally don't 
have a problem with them stating their opinions, but with their repeated 
deliberate baiting, pissing matches and dramatics onlist.

I personally find it annoying that when list members ask them to take it 
offlist, that they seem incapable of doing so.  (It's really annoying to see 
Jeroen turn verbal acrobatics this morning while trying to justify gross 
violations of netiquette.) And when they are called on it, they revert to 
the pre-adolescent behavior of pointing fingers.  If they can't act like 
adults, perhaps we need to do so.

I don't think suspending people for a single offense is at all appropriate.  
What Ronn has suggested is system that can and most likely will become 
abused.  I do think that a deeper examination of the problem and the people 
who perpetuate it is in order.  I wouldn't presume to speak for the entire 
list, but I believe that quite a few of us are sick and tired of the status 
quo and want a change in how these problems are handled.  I'm sure you'll 
add a valuable view to such a discussion.  Your comment says that you are 
trying to censor the rest of us from even discussing the subject -- and I do 
understand the irony inherent in this statement.

I also think that this discussion needs to include clear, *objective* 
viewpoints from both Jeroen and John G., since considering their own track 
records they will be most affected by it.

Jon

_
Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online 
http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963

___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

Re: Retronyms

[Reggie Bautista]

JDG wrote:

"Acoustic Guitar"
"Natural Turf"
"Analog Watch"
"Two-Parent Family"
"Off-Line Publication"
"Kinetic Warfare"

How many other retronyms can you name?

 http://slate.msn.com/?id=2074367


Acoustic Piano
Organic Groceries
Free-range Chickens
Traditional Jazz
Traditional Celtic Music
Good Star Trek
Good Larry Niven Novel (or short story, for that matter)
Umm
Polite Mailing List (OK, so I made this last one up ;-)

Reggie Bautista
VFP This is fun


_
The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* 
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail

___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

Re: Missile Defense in a New Strategic Environment

[Julia Thompson]

Erik Reuter wrote:
> 
> On Thu, Nov 21, 2002 at 01:35:35PM -0800, Deborah Harrell wrote:
> 
> > The article is actually more about prognostications; it is 26K and I
> > can forward it to whoever would like, or post it on-list if people
> > want.  I don't know where it was originally from (my friend is away on
> > vacation right now), but it appears to be recent.
> 
> I think Nick said that was over the limit. I'm not sure if he meant his
> software will reject it?
> 
> Anyway, I'd love to see it so please send me a copy.

Sorry if this has been addressed already, but as far as size limitations
go, it should not be over the limit; Deborah sent me a copy, and it's
smaller than 26K.  (I haven't had time to read the actual article yet.)

26K is not even at the limit, either, but it's more than halfway there. 

Julia
___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

Retronyms

[J.D. Giorgis]

"Acoustic Guitar"
"Natural Turf"
"Analog Watch"
"Two-Parent Family"
"Off-Line Publication"
"Kinetic Warfare"

How many other retronyms can you name?  

 http://slate.msn.com/?id=2074367

JDG

=
-
John D. Giorgis  - [EMAIL PROTECTED]
"First... to clarify what we stand for: the United States must defend liberty and 
justice because these principles are right and true for all people everywhere.  No 
nation owns these aspirations, and no nation is exempt from them."
  -US National Security Strategy 2002

__
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus – Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
http://mailplus.yahoo.com
___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

Re: Brooklyn Bridge? (Was: Re: scouted: EU wants to ban cig ads)

[Medievalbk]

In a message dated 11/22/02 7:43:56 AM US Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
writes:

<< William Taylor ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) writes:
 >... Two out of three investors who were going to raise shrimp on desert 
land ...
 
 You had people ready to invest in raising shrimp on desert land?  Aren't 
they sea
 creatures?  If you can sell investors on that, maybe you can make a living 
selling the
 Brooklyn Bridge or Florida swampland!  :-)
  >>

Heh heh heh. Caught ya. It is already being done in Gila Bend. Arizona + 
shrimp + Gila Bend + sweetwater should get you a website.

When groundwater is too brackish for drinking water or even most crops, it 
can be perfect for shrimp farming. The shrimp even have a sweeter taste than 
ocean shrimp. Before 9-11 the investors had spent over $5,000 on well testing.

Now as to health insurance, that's for people with real jobs or real incomes.

William Taylor
---
Cough hack weeze.
___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

RE: DING! (was Re: NASA)

[Horn, John]

> From: Gautam Mukunda [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> 
> --- "J. van Baardwijk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> > At 21:01 21-11-2002 -0500, John Giorgis wrote:
> 
> It's 2:47am, Eastern Standard Time.  I'm still at the
> office, with no guesses as to when I'm getting out. 
> For God's sake, will the two of you both shut up? 
> Don't you have _anything_ better to do?

And to think I unsubbed from the Culture list in order to spend more time
here.  What was I thinking?!?  Brad DeLong was right...

  - jmh
___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

Re: NASA

[Eve-Lyne Couturier]

I understand the point of copyrights and how it is important to support the
artists or authors you listen or read.  But you see, not all of us can
afford suscriprion to all of those newspaper, magazine, website.  For now,
I'm a poor student trying to learn more about the world.  This mailing list
provides me with the opporunity to read from various sources on various
subjects and that is wonderful.  When I will have more money, I will be able
to buy copies of everything I want.  But since I will have had previously
the chance to read from these sources before, I will know exactly where to
invest my money.  So to me, those article you post here "illegally" is a
form of advertising and a form of charity.  As long as the reference is
there, I know where to find articles valuable enough to me that they merit
me to buy it.

Eve-Lyne Couturier

___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

RE: SCOUTED: What Would Jesus Drive

[Horn, John]

> From: Julia Thompson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> 
> Minivans *are* better on those merits. 
> 
> The Honda Odyssey, mentioned by Russell earlier, is one.  
> (The Mazda MPV
> he mentions has name familiarity to me, but I can't remember just what
> it looks like.  Mostly I tune out Mazda commercials because I find the
> audio on them to be extremely annoying, leading me to avoid actually
> picking up any useful information from them.)

We have a Mazda MPV.  My wife drives it.  We were down between the Odyssey
and the MPV when were looking into a minivan.  The Odyssey is huge but
relatively expensive.  We got a very good deal on the MPV.   The MPV is
actually one of the smaller minivans.  But that's OK because we are small
people.  The rear seat is really uncomfortable but that's mostly holding
inanimate stuff anyway.  Other than that, we love it.  It gets about 16-18
MPG depending.

  - jmh
___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

How to Disarm Iraq

[J.D. Giorgis]

Here's a brilliant essay on what needs to be done to
disarm Iraq   Hopefully everyone who is opposed to
war with Iraq can at least agree that we can't let
Iraq play the tricks described here

 http://slate.msn.com/?id=2074297

=
-
John D. Giorgis  - [EMAIL PROTECTED]
"First... to clarify what we stand for: the United States must defend liberty and 
justice because these principles are right and true for all people everywhere.  No 
nation owns these aspirations, and no nation is exempt from them."
  -US National Security Strategy 2002

__
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus – Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
http://mailplus.yahoo.com
___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

Re: Gautam's energy levels

[Steve Sloan II]

"K. Feete" wrote:

> I'm trying to remember what 401K is.

A 401K is a retirement package. An employee invests some
set percentage of her salary each pay period into one or
more stock market or bond funds. The employer often matches
the employee's investment in those funds, which helps a lot.
Different funds have different trade-offs of risk, and of
the rate they're likely to increase in value. Fund risks
range from slow, steady, and very safe bonds, to stocks in
old, established companies, to high-risk stocks in brand-new
companies.

As for salary information, at my last job, I made about $45,000
a year (pre-taxes) programming. After taxes, 401K, voluntary
investment into company stock, and a pledge I made to pay a
percentage to United Way, etc., I ended up getting a little
over $1300 every 2-week pay period. Luckily, things here in
north Alabama aren't as obscenely expensive as they are in
NYC ;-), and my lifestyle doesn't exactly make me a party
animal, so I was able to save a pretty good amount. That's
been helping me a lot as I look for another job.
__
Steve Sloan . Huntsville, Alabama => [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Brin-L list pages ... http://www.sloan3d.com/brinl
Chmeee's 3D Objects  http://www.sloan3d.com/chmeee
3D and Drawing Galleries .. http://www.sloansteady.com
Software  Science Fiction, Science, and Computer Links
Science fiction scans . http://www.sloan3d.com
___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

Brooklyn Bridge? (Was: Re: scouted: EU wants to ban cig ads)

[Bryon Daly]

William Taylor ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) writes:
>... Two out of three investors who were going to raise shrimp on desert land ...

You had people ready to invest in raising shrimp on desert land?  Aren't they sea
creatures?  If you can sell investors on that, maybe you can make a living selling the
Brooklyn Bridge or Florida swampland!  :-)

(Sorry - I'm not making fun of your misfortune - it's just the whole desert shrimp
thing puzzles/amuses me greatly.)

>It takes about $500 just for the alergy testing. I'm in a kinda holding
>pattern...

Is that type of testing not covered by health insurance (or do you not have insurance)?
I have allergies and have thought about getting tested, but I hadn't realized it might
be a very large out-of-my-pocket cost!

-Bryon


___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

Re: White House Wages Stealth War on Condoms

[J. van Baardwijk]

At 09:18 22-11-2002 -0500, Kat Feete wrote:


"The only 100 percent effective way to avoid nonmarital pregnancy and STD
infection is to avoid sexual activity outside a mutually faithful,
lifelong relationship - marriage," says the Texas-based Medical Institute
for Sexual Health. The group's founder, Dr. Joe S. McIlhaney, Jr., now
sits on the presidential AIDS panel.


So, if Sonja and I had not gotten married but had stuck to mutually 
faithful co-habitation, there would have been a greater risk to either of 
us to get some STD infection? Could someone please explain how a piece of 
paper protects either of us from such infections?

Really, the only 100 percent effective way to avoid nonmarital pregnancy 
and STD infection is  abstinence. 

Personally, I think that the mere existence of people like McIlhaney is 
more than enough reason to use condoms...   


Jeroen "Three times a day keeps the doctor away" van Baardwijk

__
Wonderful-World-of-Brin-L Website:   http://www.Brin-L.com

___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

Re: Gautam's energy levels

[K. Feete]

Gautam Mukunda wrote:

>Without commenting on my own salary, I would point out
>that between the various taxes and government-mandated
>deductions in my salary, I end up paying 42% to the
>government.  That's _before_ I deduct for my 401K and
>things like that. 

I'm trying to remember what 401K is. 

I know we don't have to pay the government much right now - in fact we 
usually get a few hundred back - because my mom's been complaining that, 
what with the new cheese business doing well, and the bro and I about to 
stop being dependents, she may actually have to start paying for the 
first time since they started farming. (I've never made enough money to 
have to pay taxes, so I don't know much about this either)

> I also live in Manhattan.  Despite
>the fact that I have _4_ roommates, my rent+utilities
>exceeds $1300 per month.  There are plenty of people
>at McKinsey - or any other financial/consulting firm -
>who make more than $120K/year (I assume - salary
>figures are confidential, but that isn't that much by
>financial world standards), but I understand quite
>well why they say that it doesn't go nearly as far as
>you might think.

 That's the good bit. You don't get paid a lot but you get "perks" - 
almost always, with a farming job, housing (usually crappy housing [there 
won't be any indoor plumbing when I go home] but housing), and usually 
food. My parents give their employees a pig and a cow - dead and cut up 
and all, of course. And as much milk as you want. 

J. van Baardwijk wrote:

>You are correct -- that is not a lot.   
>
>OK, maybe it is a reasonable wage for a trained herdsman, but personally, I 
>do not even bother to get out of bed for 15-20k per year.

If I was having to do math all the time I *know* I wouldn't get out of 
bed for 120K a year. Farming's what I love. It pays nothing, and I end up 
with scars and muddy clothes and stuff, but there we are. 

I was just mildly curious, really. I just don't *know* what people make, 
or what that translates to. My family's financial situation is so muddy 
that it's impossible to judge anything. 

Anyway. Cool.



Kat Feete




Never raise your hands to your kids. It leaves your groin 
unprotected.
   - George Carlin


___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

White House Wages Stealth War on Condoms

[K. Feete]

Amusing title and a pretty good information piece. I've been hearing a 
startling amount about various aspects of this issue from various sources 
for the past month or so... opinions?

http://www.newsday.com/news/opinion/ny-vpcoc143002251nov14,0,7803300.column
?coll=ny%2Dviewpoints%2Dheadlines

White House Wages Stealth War on Condoms
Marie Cocco
November 14, 2002

The government is waging a covert war on condoms.

The start of hostilities wasn't announced from the Oval Office. Nor was 
it put to a dramatic vote in the Congress.

This is a guerilla war. The insurgents inch forward with determined 
steadiness, and a certain stealth.

A fact sheet on the effectiveness of condoms in preventing the 
transmission of the AIDS virus has disappeared from the Centers for 
Disease Control Web site. According to lawmakers who have protested, the 
missing sheet was based on public health data showing that "latex 
condoms, when used consistently and correctly, are highly effective in 
preventing transmission of HIV" and other sexually transmitted diseases. 
In its place is a notice: "Being revised."

A separate CDC listing of sex-education "Programs that Work," meant to 
give local officials information on scientifically proven methods of 
reducing risky teen sexual behavior, also has vanished. The list was 
created at the request of schools that wanted "credible evidence of 
effectiveness" as they selected sex-education programs, lawmakers say.

President George W. Bush has begun appointing critics of condoms to a 
presidential advisory panel on AIDS. They include social conservatives 
who question the international scientific consensus that condoms are 
highly effective in AIDS prevention. Instead, they emphasize failure 
rates from slippage, breakage and not using condoms every time.

"The only 100 percent effective way to avoid nonmarital pregnancy and STD 
infection is to avoid sexual activity outside a mutually faithful, 
lifelong relationship - marriage," says the Texas-based Medical Institute 
for Sexual Health. The group's founder, Dr. Joe S. McIlhaney, Jr., now 
sits on the presidential AIDS panel.

Asked in an interview if people who aren't monogamous should use condoms, 
McIlhaney said, "That's very simplistic and has been proven, so far, not 
to be very effective."

Government audits of AIDS activist groups began after protesters 
disrupted remarks by Health and Human Services Secretary Tommy Thompson 
at a conference in Barcelona. Conservatives in Congress now have called 
for expanding the audits to include such groups as the Sexuality 
Information and Education Council of the United States, a 38-year-old 
organization that assists schools and health departments with AIDS and 
sex-education programs. The conservatives say they are wary that 
government funds may improperly be used to lobby against the 
administration's favored abstinence-only programs on teen sex.

The groups say their books are open. "It's an intimidation tactic," said 
Tamara Kreinin, president of the sexuality information group.

Abstinence-only programs, which promote sexual abstinence and do not 
provide information on contraception or AIDS prevention, are the 
administration's pet projects, slated for more and more funding every 
year. So far, studies on their effectiveness are incomplete or 
inconclusive.

"There is no documentation of success with this material," said Rep. Lois 
Capps (D-Calif.), a former school nurse who has run programs for pregnant 
teens and adolescent parents.
Last spring, Capps tried to get the House Commerce Committee to agree 
that the government should fund only "medically and scientifically 
accurate" sex-ed programs. She failed, by a committee vote of 31-19, that 
mostly broke on party lines. The congressional preference, apparently, is 
for the medically and scientifically inaccurate.

HHS officials did not return several phone calls seeking comment. White 
House spokesman Scott McClellan would not answer when asked if the 
president believes using condoms prevents transmission of the AIDS virus. 
He refused to say whether the president thinks public health officials 
should promote their use.

"When it comes to combating HIV, we ought to be funding programs that 
work," McClellan said.
In the early days of the AIDS epidemic, when no one dared speak of what 
was then unspeakable, activist groups coined a phrase: Silence equals 
death.

Two decades later, our own government has embarked on a campaign that 
begs for its own slogan: Disinformation is deadly.


Copyright © 2002, Newsday, Inc.


"Wakey, wakey. I'm here with your weather report 
for the evening. I see rain, lightning, thunder, 
and your head nailed to that wall over there if you 
don't tell me what my friend and I need to know."
 -- Marcus, Babylon 5

___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

Re: NASA

[Ray Ludenia]

J. van Baardwijk wrote:



Jeroen, I hope you carefully consider everything you post to the list. I
dread the day you write something that upsets yourself. The nonsensical
tirades you would write to the list complaining about your (alleged)
misbehaviour..

Ray.

___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

Re: TO EVERYONE: Dinging Suggestion

[Erik Reuter]

I suggest whoever brings up policies for suspending people from the list
because they don't like what they write should be the first recipient of
the punishment mentioned in their policy. (Not sure what that means I
would get for this post)

On Fri, Nov 22, 2002 at 07:44:49AM -0600, Ronn Blankenship wrote:

> again on-list, both "A" and "B" are immediately suspended from posting
> for 24 hours for a "cooling-off" period.  If either brings it up
> again, the cooling-off period is 48 hours, and so forth.

-- 
"Erik Reuter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>   http://www.erikreuter.net/
___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

Re: Off Topic: Niven query for the Tolkien mailing list

[Ronn Blankenship]

At 05:25 AM 11/22/02, Alberto Monteiro wrote:

IIRC, Niven's story "The Coldest Place" was not placed
in Pluto [and I won't spoil it here O:-)]. Am I right?



IIRC, "Wait It Out" is the Niven story set on Pluto.



--Ronn! :)

I always knew that I would see the first man on the Moon.
I never dreamed that I would see the last.
--Dr. Jerry Pournelle


___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

TO EVERYONE: Dinging Suggestion

[Ronn Blankenship]

AFAIK, we never decided on a procedure to handle "dings".  Based on recent 
events, I'd like to humbly submit a suggestion to at least prevent endless 
back-and-forth arguing.

Let's say that listmember "A" "dings" listmember B.

"B" responds by counter-dinging "A".

My suggestion:

"A" and "B" get one response each.  After that, if either brings it up 
again on-list, both "A" and "B" are immediately suspended from posting for 
24 hours for a "cooling-off" period.  If either brings it up again, the 
cooling-off period is 48 hours, and so forth.

I invite _substantive_ discussion of whether this is appropriate/too harsh, 
whether Dr. Brin would approve, etc.  My goal in suggesting this is to stop 
the almost incessant on-list p*ssing contests between certain list members 
that clog the list and are extremely annoying to other list members who 
just want to have discussions with on-line friends.

We now return you to your regularly-scheduled mailing list, and wish all of 
you a happy day.

:)


--Ronn! :)

I always knew that I would see the first man on the Moon.
I never dreamed that I would see the last.
--Dr. Jerry Pournelle


___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

Re: Off Topic: Niven query for the Tolkien mailing list

[Robert Seeberger]

- Original Message -
From: "Alberto Monteiro" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, November 22, 2002 5:25 AM
Subject: Off Topic: Niven query for the Tolkien mailing list


> IIRC, Niven's story "The Coldest Place" was not placed
> in Pluto [and I won't spoil it here O:-)]. Am I right?
>
Off the top of my head it would be Mercury.

But Steve might be able to answer that better, I think there is a thread on
Larryiven-l regarding this lately.

xponent
Too Early Maru
rob


___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

Off Topic: Niven query for the Tolkien mailing list

[Alberto Monteiro]

IIRC, Niven's story "The Coldest Place" was not placed 
in Pluto [and I won't spoil it here O:-)]. Am I right? 
 
Alberto Monteiro 
 
 
___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

Re: Netiquette links was:Re: DING!

[J. van Baardwijk]

At 22:16 21-11-2002 -0500, Erik Reuter wrote:


> Think of it this way... how would you feel if a personal private email
> that you had written for a specific purpose/person is then plastered
> across the Internet?

This doesn't really apply in this case. JDG surely knew Jeroen would
probably post them to Brin-L.


Actually, I think he keeps replying off-list deliberately. He knows that I 
will almost certainly reply to his posts on-list, which gives him the 
opportunity to whine about my alleged violation of community standards. At 
the same time, he can play the poor victim (in his own words: "I obviously 
don't think that I am doing anything wrong") and pretend to be morally 
superior.

The purpose of this appears to be to provoke a response from the listowners 
(in his own words: "and maybe the accumulation of Ding!'s might spur the 
List into taking corrective action"). What he is trying to achieve here is 
that the listowners will see him as a poor helpless victim and get so fed 
up with all this that they kick me off the list.

This raises the question: why would he want me to be removed? Well, that 
should be obvious: I do pretty much everything he hates. He makes claims 
but refuses to back them -- I want him to back his claims with facts. He 
makes claims but refuses to answer questions -- I want him to answer my 
questions. I often manage to shoot holes in whatever he is arguing -- he 
hates it when people point out that he is wrong. He expects others to admit 
to being wrong, but refuses to do that himself. He habitually commits gross 
violations of community standards -- I criticise him when he does that.

So, it is obvious *what* he is doing and *why* he is doing it. The only 
question now is whether the listowners will fall for this elaborate charade 
of his and give him what he wants (my removal from the list), or if they 
will see right through it and *not* give him what he wants.


Jeroen "Busted!" van Baardwijk

__
Wonderful-World-of-Brin-L Website:   http://www.Brin-L.com

___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

Re: English question, Re: DING!

[Medievalbk]

In a message dated 11/22/2002 3:45:26 AM US Mountain Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

<< Doug wrote:
 
 > I suggest a better way to deal with this kind of behavior is to ignore it
 >
 > completely, excepting extreme cases.
 
 Now my English isn't that good. But somehow I feel that use of excepting is
 wrong here? I'd have used exempting or something else entirely but never
 excepting. Althought the meaning is correct, it somehow doesn't look right
 to me. Anyone?
 
 Sonja :o) >>

It may have been the gremlin that lives in the spellchecker.

 --except in extreme cases--  makes complete sense/

 --exceptin extreme cases--  is easy for a human to correct.

But it is beyond the mental capacity of a spellchecker.

--excepting extreme cases-- is the only way it nose hoot correct therefor.


William Taylor

...knows how to correct the error
___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

English question, Re: DING!

[Sonja van Baardwijk-Holten]

Doug wrote:

> I suggest a better way to deal with this kind of behavior is to ignore it
>
> completely, excepting extreme cases.

Now my English isn't that good. But somehow I feel that use of excepting is
wrong here? I'd have used exempting or something else entirely but never
excepting. Althought the meaning is correct, it somehow doesn't look right
to me. Anyone?

Sonja :o)

GCU Isn't it ironic. ;o)

___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

RE: DING! (was Re: NASA)

[Kevin Tarr]

At 11:48 PM 11/21/2002 -0800, you wrote:


--- "J. van Baardwijk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> At 21:01 21-11-2002 -0500, John Giorgis wrote:

It's 2:47am, Eastern Standard Time.  I'm still at the
office, with no guesses as to when I'm getting out.
For God's sake, will the two of you both shut up?
Don't you have _anything_ better to do?

Gautam



Somebody is going to make a great parent!

Kevin T.
Especially of girls

___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

Re: Scouted: Women prefer HDTV to Diamonds???

[Sonja van Baardwijk-Holten]

Ronn Blankenship wrote:

> At 03:25 AM 11/20/02, Sonja van Baardwijk-Holten wrote:

> 

I so envy you. :o)

> >What do you give a guy that isn't a crack-ass DIY-er?
>
> A book on "Home Repair for Absolute Beginners"?
> ;-)

That would mean I'd be prepared to let Jeroen use my tools wouldn't it?

Sonja
Bloodbath eminent maru

___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

Re: NASA

[J. van Baardwijk]

At 21:13 21-11-2002 -0500, you wrote:


>>Which civilization are you a member of?   Your civilization seems to be
>>the Dutch civilization, and you have regularly framed your positions in
>>terms of Dutch interest.
>
>I consider myself a member of the Terran civilisation.

You have a strange way of showing your solidarity with Americans -
leaving them to defend themselves against Al Qaeda.


Quite a statement, for someone who considers the rest of the world, 
especially Europe, to be inferior (military and otherwise) to the US.


>My exact words were: "Which is also irrelevant, because (1) I am not
>responsible for your behaviour and (2) someone else's behaviour does not
>make it OK for you to misbehave." So, I did not say that "my behaviour
>is irrelevant to my criticisms of your behaviour". And as it is
>impossible to retract a statement that I did not make...

You earlier wrote that: "Given your history on this list, you are not
exactly in a position to complain about someone else violating Netiquette."

So, do you agree then, that the above statement by you is, quote,
"irrelevant?"You responded to my criticism of your misbehaviou by
pointing out my behaviour.Thus, either your "exact words" above are a
misstatement by you that must be retracted, or else you agree that the
above quote of yours is irrelevant.


John, who the fuck do you think you are, demanding that I retract a 
statement? You habitually launch personal attacks against other listmembers 
but have never apologised to for it; you habitually make the most stupid 
and ridiculous claims but refuse to either retract them or back them with 
proof; you habitually refuse to answer questions. So, you are obviously not 
in any position whatsoever to demand *anything* of *anyone*!

Now, do the entire Internet community a favour and forever stay away from 
any computer that has Internet access.


>In other words, you believe that a person can make any claim s/he wants, no
>matter how ridiculous, without having to provide proof for that claim.

Correct.


Then you do not belong in a discussion forum. Go away.



My reputation as a member of the community, however, will no
doubt be connected to the skill I use in backing up my arguments.


Given your blatant refusals to back your claims, given your blatant 
refusals to answer questions, and given your statement that no claim 
whatsoever should ever have to be backed with proof, it is obvious that you 
do not *possess* that skill.

But there is indeed a connection between your reputation and your skills: 
both leave a hell of a lot to be desired.


>>You, however, have no control over how I spend my List time.
>
>True, but given your attitude, I must now strongly recommend that you
>reduce your list time to absolute zero.

I didn't know that you could measure time in degrees Kelvin. :)


But then, there is an awful lot that you do not know. The rules of social 
behaviour, for example.


>>Permission to reply to this message on-list is not granted.
>
>I do not need your permission. Besides, you have not explicitly forbidden
>me to reply to your message on-list (but do not bother: it will be ignored
>anyway).

I hereby insist that you do not repost anything I have written in this
message to brin-l.


I hereby insist that you either start behaving like a civilised person or 
immediately cease sending messages to this list and to any of my off-list 
e-mail addresses.


Jeroen "The only good Giorgis is a silent Giorgis" van Baardwijk

__
Wonderful-World-of-Brin-L Website:   http://www.Brin-L.com

___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

Re: Posting articles, was RE: NASA

[J. van Baardwijk]

At 21:05 21-11-2002 -0500, John Giorgis wrote:


>Jeroen "Shape up or ship out" van Baardwijk

So, does this standard apply to you as well as to myself?

i.e. given that you have conceded that you are violating community
standards by reposting my off-list messages to you on-list, are you either:
 a) Going to "shape up" by abiding by the community standards?
*or*
 b) "Ship Out"


I can accept that posting off-list messages on-list and/or replying on-list 
to off-list messages can often be seen as a violation of community 
standards. However, I do not consider my replying on-list to your recent 
off-list messages to be such a violation; I have already given the reason 
why in a previous post.


Or does your "Shape Up, or Ship Out" only apply to everyone else but you?
After all, I obviously don't think that I am doing anything wrong.


But then, you often leave the impression that you do not think, period.



So, you surely are appealing to some kind of community standard when you
refer to "shape up".So, do these community standards apply equally to
you as to me? Or, are you the sole arbiter of what standard must be
met in order to "shape up."


I am sure that once you have grown up and have become a mature adult, even 
you will be able to think of what would constitute acceptable behaviour.


I hereby deny you permission to repost any part of this message written
by me on Brin-L.


I hereby deny you permission to contact me off-list at any of my e-mail 
addresses, be it in reply to any part of this message, or for any other 
purpose.


Jeroen "The only good Giorgis is a silent Giorgis" van Baardwijk

__
Wonderful-World-of-Brin-L Website:   http://www.Brin-L.com

___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

RE: DING! (was Re: NASA)

[J. van Baardwijk]

At 23:48 21-11-2002 -0800, Gautam Mukunda wrote:


It's 2:47am, Eastern Standard Time.  I'm still at the office, with no
guesses as to when I'm getting out.


I take it that this is only a statement of fact, not a complaint? After 
all, you knew what you were getting into when you took the job.

But hey, you cannot be all that busy if you have time to read Brin-L mail 
at work!   


For God's sake, will the two of you both shut up?


Which god are you referring to here?   :-)



Don't you have _anything_ better to do?


Yes, but sometimes things happen that require my immediate attention.


Jeroen "It is all about priorities" van Baardwijk

__
Wonderful-World-of-Brin-L Website:   http://www.Brin-L.com

___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l