Re: Science and Ideals.

[Euan Ritchie]

> Bush is the worst by far.

On the topic of Bush being the worst U.S President, I’ve discovered
cause to dispute that.

Having just read “Lies my teacher told me”, a book intended to
illustrate the inaccuracies of U.S history curriculums, I’ve read a
thorough account of more egregious behaviour by Woodrow Wilson.

I’d agree that Bush is incompetent at governing (although possibly
exceptional at delivering public treasure to his private constituency)
but his transgressions against liberty and effects on the fabric of
civil society pail compared to Wilsons, it would seem.

Besides which it’s always seemed to me that the real villain of the
piece is the U.S Congress abdicating its responsibility to police the
executive.
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Re: Books, was Proper function..

[Richard Baker]

Doug said:

>> About sixty thousand pages of history, I'd estimate. Not nearly
>> enough, anyway.
>
> Well that sounds like a hell of a lot to me.  I've read a bit of  
> American
> history, especially the Civil War, but I don't have the kind of  
> command of
> the facts that you do on what you've studied (especially with my  
> library
> still in boxes).

It would be a lot if I'd focused on one period but I've been trying to  
at least make an attempt to cover all regions and periods fairly  
evenly (despite my innate bias towards Romans and Egyptians). The  
rough map of history I drew a few years ago(*) has around 90 such  
region-period boxes on it so on average I've only read around six or  
seven hundred pages on each. On quite a lot of them I've read  
*nothing*. And that map doesn't even show south-east Asia, most of  
Africa, the Pacific and Australia or the Americas, nor does it include  
such short-lived but not entirely negligible polities as the British  
Empire, the Soviet Union or the United States of America.

Rich

(*) http://www.theculture.org/rich/sharpblue/archives/000147.html
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Re: Spore

[Bryon Daly]

On Thu, Sep 25, 2008 at 1:11 AM, Max Battcher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>
> On a side note however, I've been arguing that killing the current
> trade-in market (albeit preferably via DDNs rather than draconian DRM) will
> benefit gaming in the long run because the only remaining game-targeted
> retailer (GameStop) has degenerated into not much more than a pawn shop.
> You can't count on GameStop today to have a new copy of a game any more
> than
> 2 months old, much less 2 years, and because of that you can barely count
> on
> other retailers to have anything more in stock.  GameStop has started to
> focus their stock of new games on games that are more likely to come back
> (be resold), and thus has perpetuated and exacerbated a "mainstream
> accessible contemporary hits only" mentality in gaming.
>

That's true - GameStop is a repository of all sorts of IMHO unsavory
practices, many of which revolve around the whole "pawn shop" mentality.
Penny Arcade regularly complains about the whole "we only stock enough to
meet the preorders" absurdity.  And I really wouldn't shed a tear for
Gamestop if it went away: I'm mainly a PC gamer, and Gamestop hardly carries
PC games now, so I've long ago moved to Amazon and DDNs for my purchases.
But here's more wierdness: according to this article
http://www.gamespot.com/news/6136091.html, GameStop stopped doing *any* used
PC game trade-in business back in 2005.  The used game market is almost
entirely for console-based games, not PC games.  So why, then, is the
trade-in killing DRM targetted only at PC games?  AFAIK, the Xbox 360
versions of Mass Effect and Bioshock are not saddled with the
activation/install limits.


> Has anyone ever seen a bookstore that had a used bookstore in the back and
> modified what it stocked up front based upon how many copies it had of the
> same book in used form in the back?  It's absolutely bizarre...


Agreed.  Without any serious B&M retail competition, they can apparently get
away with that, at least until more people start shopping online.


>   There is absolutely something to be said for always having the
> latest updates and having someone host an always available backup from a
> DDN...  I have no problem using a DDN and at this point basically prefer
> it.


In some ways, I do, too.  Except I find it galling that I cannot
trade/sell/gift/donate games purchsed that way.  Not that I've ever actually
traded a game in or have much desire to.  But the way it takes away our fair
use rights under the first sale doctrine. (FYI for anyone not familiar:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-sale_doctrine).  I see the assult on used
software as a slippery slope to attacks on used music/dvd resale and then
eventually books.  I already regularly see people assuming that they only
have a "license" to listen to the music on the CD they bought, and do not
actually own it.


> I still think that the DDNs could provide more features, though.  I like
> Gas-Powered/Stardock's Gamer's Bill of Rights and think it is certainly a
> start, but there are other things that would be nice to see.


I like it too, as a nice start.  But it's realy pretty wishy-washy on its
wording for many of the rights it lists: Several listed rights say "Gamers
have a right to demand ".  This is NOT the same as saying "Gamers have
a right to ".  All it boils down to is that we're allowed to *strongly
ask* for .  Gee thanks!


>  For instance,
> I think the DDNs could promote healthy sorts of resale/trade-in.


Yes, I noticed this was glaringly missing from the Gamer's Bill of Rights
when I first saw it.


> Right now,
> I can let my brother play my Steam games by letting him borrow my login
> information (at my own risk, admittedly), but it would be nice if I could
> simply from Steam "Loan these games to Steam friend x" or "Give these games
> to Steam friend y".  Adding in simple arbitration for game trades could be
> cool and it would be simple from there to create an after-market for game
> trading and even use that to put extra money into the pockets of the
> DEVELOPERS, rather than, say, the GameStop Pawn Shop empire.


This would be great, but I doubt it will ever happen.



> Mass Effect probably wouldn't have had as bad DRM if it weren't for EA
> buying Bioware/Pandemic. Score one more for nearly a monoculture in
> publishing and EA's weird love affair with DRM right now.  I got Mass
> Effect
> for the 360.  At the moment I'm favoring 360 purchases over PC purchases,
> for a variety of reasons, including not having to worry about DRM.
>

Yes, I largely blame EA, another rather all-around repugnant company.


 On Thu, Sep 25, 2008 at 3:48 AM, Charlie Bell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:

> On 25/09/2008, at 10:51 AM, Bryon Daly wrote:
> > I was planning on buying Spore, but the "only 3 installations for a
> > game you
> > purchased" deal is where I've drawn my line in the DRM sand.
>
> They've binned that policy now.


No, not really.  All they did really was bump up the li

Re: $10

[Doug Pensinger]

 Jon  wrote:

> > You are Eric Reuter and I demand my 10 bucks.
>
> Who are you, John, who is Eric Reuter, and why does he owe you 10 clams?


Eric is a former Brin-ler, a libertarian, and he didn't pull any verbal
punches.  He told by Dr. Brin to leave the list  (or he would) after a
heated exchange.

Doug
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Re: Books, was Proper function..

[Doug Pensinger]

Rich wrote:

Doug said:
>
> > But you must have read thousands of pages of history!
>
> About sixty thousand pages of history, I'd estimate. Not nearly
> enough, anyway.


Well that sounds like a hell of a lot to me.  I've read a bit of American
history, especially the Civil War, but I don't have the kind of command of
the facts that you do on what you've studied (especially with my library
still in boxes).


> But the problem is the opportunity cost of reading the Baroque Cycle.
> In that number of pages I could get through, for example, the whole
> surviving part of Livy's history of Rome, or a handful of modern
> histories. I'll get to it eventually, I suppose.


Well don't feel guilty about reading the Livy even if you _never_ get to the
Stephenson.

Doug
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Re: Science and Ideals.

[Doug Pensinger]

John wrote:

 So, what do you all think?
> Nixon vs Bush (the son). Which was worse?
>


Bush is the worst by far.  Nixon had a few positive things going on
(detente, China), he appointed moderate judges and he inherited Viet Nam.
Bush has nothing, absolutely nothing positive to tout unless you're
anti-choice and he created his problems out of whole cloth.  Not only is
Bush worse than Nixon, I have him worse by far than any President ever.

The only thing he's better at than Nixon is not getting caught red handed.

Doug
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Re: Critical Thinking in Math

[Ronn! Blankenship]

At 02:12 PM Wednesday 9/24/2008, Alberto Monteiro wrote:
>Ah, Conservapedia... It never ceases to be fun...
>
>http://www.conservapedia.com/Conservapedia:Critical_Thinking_in_Math
>
>Did someone (was it me?) mention Fundamentalist Math?
>
>Alberto Monteiro
>
>PS: I must confess a sin... I've been _collaborating_ with Conservapedia...


Parts of the description remind me somewhat of the optional interterm 
course the department where I did my undergraduate and masters work 
had to emphasize constructive proof techniques over things like proof 
by contradiction.


. . . ronn!  :)



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Weird requests push buttons of IT pros

[Ronn! Blankenship]

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Re: Not Buying It

[Julia Thompson]

On Thu, 25 Sep 2008, Jon Louis Mann wrote:

> Thank you for correcting me again, Julia.  It's been many years since I 
> taught Social Studies and I plead early Alzeimer's!~)
> Jon

You're welcome, although my primary intent was not to correct an error, 
but to provide information to answer a question, which is one of those 
functions that I take great delight in.  :)

So, I had fun, and I'm glad it was helpful all around.

Julia


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Re: Friday's debate...

[Nick Arnett]

On Thu, Sep 25, 2008 at 4:28 PM, Jon Louis Mann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:

>
>
> The candidates should change the topic to the economy, but of course McCain
> isn't prepared...


Well he's been busy, you know... um, stopping his campaigning. You know how
it is with campaigns and momentum.  Apparently his had a great deal of
momentum and has required several days of hard work to bring it to a
complete halt so that he could have time to study.

Nick
GCU Ready, Fire, Fire, Fire, Aim!
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Friday's debate...

[Jon Louis Mann]

> 1) The two campaigns agreed to a "simplified"
> format for the debate between the VP candidates,  
> ostensibly so that Ms. Palin can "have  
> opportunities to present Mr. McCain’s positions, 
> rather than spending time talking about
> her experience or playing defense."

> 2) McCain suggested that both candidates
> "suspend" their campaigns, including the planned
> debate Friday; Obama declined, saying "I think  
> that it is going to be part of the president's 
> job to deal with more than one thing at once."
> Dave

The candidates should change the topic to the economy, but of course McCain 
isn't prepared...
Jon


  
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Conflict of interest - Democracy in action.

[Jon Louis Mann]

> drafting our leadership would if  
> nothing else give us a government 
> that actually represents us, and  
> would remove the incentive to exploit 
> the power of the office for the  
> sole purpose of getting re-elected, 
> which is what we have now.  It's  
> much harder to game that system than 
> it is to game the current one by  
> manipulating voters into wanting to .
> vote for you.

I have to agree, Bruce.  I've run for local office eight times and never come 
close.  I would have to raise at least $100,000 for a job that pays $700-$900 a 
month.  Bobby Shriver will probably raise close to half a mil this time.  The 
incumbents have already received the endorsement of city employees, after they 
approved their raise, in advance of the election...  I wasn't even interviewed.
Here is how they did it in ancient Greece:
http://encarta.msn.com/text_1741501460___18/Ancient_Greece.html
Jon



  
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Do low-probability catastrophic risks justify the bailout?

[Jon Louis Mann]

http://volokh.com/archives/archive_2008_09_21-2008_09_27.shtml#1222184010

> There are low-probability catastrophic 
> risks on both sides. When you consider 
> the fact that the bailout also has severe
> non-catastrophic costs that have a very 
> high probability of occurring, the case 
> for it still hasn't been made. 

Scroll down to the bottom:
http://wonkette.com/category/1
Jon


  
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$10

[Jon Louis Mann]

> You are Eric Reuter and I demand my 10 bucks.

Who are you, John, who is Eric Reuter, and why does he owe you 10 clams? 


  
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Wall St. and the Meltdown

[Jon Louis Mann]

> It's just how it is. In general, people on this List
> are very well  
> read and know a lot. But we don't all know the same
> stuff. Which it's  
> why it's great to see people try to back up their
> opinions, and in the  
> best discussions, see a mind changed here and there.
> Charlie.

that has happened to me more than once...
jon


  
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Meltdown

[Jon Louis Mann]

> Eh, if you do, I'll cover it.  It'll give me an
> excuse to see the guy if I 
> insist on delivering it in person.  :)
>   Julia

Let us know what you find out; I'll reimburse you if he actually takes you up 
on it!~)
Jon


  
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Report on bailout

[Jon Louis Mann]

> That was what I was thinking too, but inspiration did not
> strike. The
> whole subject just makes me too sad. WSJ did a  poll the
> other day
> and more than 75% of the respondents thought the bailout
> was a bad
> idea, and yet the prediction markets are saying the bailout
> has better
> than a 75% chance of passing. And the major parties seem to
> be supporting it, only arguing about insignificant details
> such as limits
> on executive pay. Hello, we are talking about spending
> $700B or more
> and they are arguing over millions here and there that
> aren't even taxpayer dollars?

Vote here to send a message against enabling Wall St.
https://secure.avaaz.org/act/index.php?r=act
U.S. citizenship not required.
Jon


  
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Not Buying It

[Jon Louis Mann]

Thank you for correcting me again, Julia.  It's been many years since I taught 
Social Studies and I plead early Alzeimer's!~)
Jon

> CCC = Civilian Conservation Corps
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_Conservation_Corps 
> WWW?  Dunno.  Did Jon mean WPA?  That would be Works
> Progress Administration.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Works_Progress_Administration 
> The umbrella label for the whole thing was the New Deal.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_deal if you want to read
> more about various "alphabet soup" programs
>   Julia


  
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Re: Books, was Proper function..

[Max Battcher]

Alberto Monteiro wrote:
> John Williams wrote:
>>> Um... that's the plot of the book.  She's a sexbot designed
>>> for having sex with humans but there aren't any humans left
>>> to have sex with...
>> Now I'm wondering what happened to all the humans. I'll definitely
>> have to check it out now.
>>
> Since I didn't read it, I don't spoil it...
> 
> Of course humans went extinct. As soon as sexbots exist, human
> will prefer to have sex with bots instead of other humans,
> and then sex does not create new life - extinction.

The Gospel According to Futurama has a classic documentary entitled 
"Don't Date Robots!" in the episode:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_Dated_a_Robot

It tells the plight of Billy Everyteen in the world of sexbots.  This 
seems to be a borrowed copy of the documentary (didn't load for me):

http://www.milkandcookies.com/link/48647/detail/

--
--Max Battcher--
http://worldmaker.net

One of many topics that are explained/foretold in the canon of Futurama Maru
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Re: Do low-probability catastrophic risks justify the bailout?

[John Williams]

Dan M <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>


> Because I believe that historical data is useful.  I think this is a point
> where we have very strong differences.  In your replies to most, you tend to
> ignore/snip a wealth of data that have been presented.  

Here's some data for you.

http://www.federalreserve.gov/releases/cp/

For terms between 1 and 90 days, the highest AA nonfinancial commercial
paper interest rate is 2.23%. Looks fine to me.

Even the AA financials are paying at most 3.3%. 

The only trouble spots are the A2/P2 nonfinancials (risky companies) and
the AA asset-backed debt (risky due to MBS problems), and even there
companies can borrow at less than 6.1% and 4.42%, respectively. Hardly
a crisis of biblical proportions.

The only data I see that is at all interesting is the A2/P2 nonfinancial spread
time series, which spiked from below 1% to 3 or 4% recently. Evidently some
lenders were pulling their money out of riskier commercial paper. That is
interesting, but hardly a crisis. So some risky companies have to pay 3% over
the AA rate. It seems "the market" has voted that credit for riskier companies
was too loose for the current conditions, and so tightened up a bit. 

http://www.federalreserve.gov/releases/cp/outstandings.htm

Here is the not seasonally adjusted data from the above link for the past
two weeks:

Commercial Paper Outstanding (billions)

   Total NonFin  Fin  AB
Aug 271,758.2 203.7 806.8   745.6
Sep 3  1,740.9 206.2 790.4   742.1
 10  1,756.4 205.4 808.1   740.9
 17  1,682.4 204.1 765.1   708.3
 24  1,638.4 192.6 734.1   711.7

So, between Sep 10 and Sep 24, total outstanding commercial paper
dropped by $118B (6.7%), which breaks out into $13B for nonfinancial, 
$74B for financial, and $29B or asset-backed.

A contraction, to be sure, but hardly a serious crisis. Credit got a little
tighter. Especially in the financial  and asset-backed markets. That
actually strikes me as a good thing, since for several years credit has
been much too loose in the financial and asset-backed markets.

No crisis here. But I expect our politicians to funnel my tax dollars to
the special interests anyway. 


  

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Re: Meltdown

[Dave Land]

On Sep 25, 2008, at 2:10 AM, Rceeberger wrote:

>
> On 9/24/2008 11:17:26 PM, John Williams ([EMAIL PROTECTED])  
> wrote:
>> xponentrob <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>
>>>
>>>
>> There's lots about this list and the people on it you know nothing  
>> about.
>>> A lot of history here in over a decade.
>>
>> So I don't
>> owe you 10 bucks?
>>
>
> No
> There is a lot about pop culture you don't know about either  
> apparently.

He wasn't alone in that: I never heard of Lobby Lud or the snowclone  
you employed in comparing John to Eric.

Dave


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Re: Not Buying It

[John Garcia]

2008/9/25 Julia Thompson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

>
>
> On Thu, 25 Sep 2008, Alberto Monteiro wrote:
>
>
>> Jon Louis Mann wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> We need another FDR to
>>> start up some a new CCC, WWW etc.
>>>
>>>  What are those AFTs? CCC is Brazil was "Comando de Caça aos Comunistas"
>> (hint: Caça = Hunt, the other words are the same in English). And
>> WWW sounds terribly like WWIII... I hope I don't preach the same
>> solution to 29, meaning a WW? (OTOH, it might not be so bad... Billions
>> dead in the first minutes, and let the survivors think how to
>> manage the remains of the scorched Earth).
>>
>
> CCC = Civilian Conservation Corps
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_Conservation_Corps
>
> WWW?  Dunno.  Did Jon mean WPA?  That would be Works Progress
> Administration.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Works_Progress_Administration
>
> The umbrella label for the whole thing was the New Deal.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_deal if you want to read more about
> various "alphabet soup" programs
>
>Julia
>
> ___
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>
>
Maybe he meant IWW, International Workers of the World aka "Wobblies". OTOH,
maybe he meant
Wicked Witch of the West or Weasley's Wizard Wheezes

john
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Re: Science and Ideals.

[John Garcia]

On Thu, Sep 25, 2008 at 1:54 AM, Dave Land <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> On Sep 24, 2008, at 11:26 AM, John Williams wrote:
>
> > Nick Arnett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >
> >> Golly, that sounds familiar.  Echoes of the Iraq war, anyone?
> >
> > Those politicians are slippery.
>
> And how!
>
> What do others think about two bits of news from the American
> election this week:
>
> 1) The two campaigns agreed to a "simplified" format for the debate
> between the VP candidates, ostensibly so that Ms. Palin can "have
> opportunities to present Mr. McCain's positions, rather than spending
> time talking about her experience or playing defense.", according to
> McCain campaign advisors.
>
> 2) McCain suggested that both candidates "suspend" their campaigns,
> including the planned debate Friday; Obama declined, saying "I think
> that it is going to be part of the president's job to deal with more
> than one thing at once."
>
> Dave
>
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>

I hadn't heard about the VP debate, but it seems to me that Palin was picked
to bolster McCain's
appeal to social conservatives and the religious right, rather than for her
experience, so this makes
perfect sense to the McCain campaign. I can only speculate, but the Obama
campaign may have
agreed to this format because if Biden wipes the floor with her in a
traditional VP debate (as he probably
would), he runs the risk of appearing to be bullying, and don't think that
her handlers wouldn't cry  Sexist
and Unfair in a minute. OTOH, according to conventional wisdom, no one votes
for the Vice President, and
this may all be an entertaining sideshow.

This is the *perfect* time for campaigning and debating, and hopefully (but
probably not) meaningful discussion of
the issues facing us, including the economy. Both McCain and Obama need to
tell us why he should be President
instead of why the other should not.

On a different tack, some of us who are of a particular age, will remember
another controversial President associated
with an unpopular war, floundering economy, etc. So, what do you all think?
Nixon vs Bush (the son). Which was worse?

john
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Re: Not Buying It

[Alberto Monteiro]

Jon Louis Mann wrote:
>
> We need another FDR to 
> start up some a new CCC, WWW etc. 
>
What are those AFTs? CCC is Brazil was "Comando de Caça aos Comunistas"
(hint: Caça = Hunt, the other words are the same in English). And
WWW sounds terribly like WWIII... I hope I don't preach the same
solution to 29, meaning a WW? (OTOH, it might not be so bad... Billions
dead in the first minutes, and let the survivors think how to
manage the remains of the scorched Earth).

Alberto Monteiro

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Re: Spore

[Julia Thompson]

On Thu, 25 Sep 2008, Alberto Monteiro wrote:

>
> Bryon Daly wrote:
>>
>> The reality is that the draconian DRM really doesn't stop piracy at
>> all.   A cracked version was already available on the torrents the
>> day before the game was on the store shelves.  The pirates, of
>> course, have that version and are never troubled by the DRM system.
>>
> So, the ethical and logical thing to do is to buy the official
> game, and then buy the pirated version, as if this was an
> enhancement :-)

That's about what I was thinking, actually, and if I actually played video 
games, I'd be thinking about going that route.

(I bought a CD with Bejeweled, and I don't think that has a DRM, and 
that's about all I've done, and I haven't even installed the darn thing.)

Julia

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Re: Books, was Proper function..

[Alberto Monteiro]

John Williams wrote:
> 
>> Um... that's the plot of the book.  She's a sexbot designed
>> for having sex with humans but there aren't any humans left
>> to have sex with...
> 
> Now I'm wondering what happened to all the humans. I'll definitely
> have to check it out now.
> 
Since I didn't read it, I don't spoil it...

Of course humans went extinct. As soon as sexbots exist, human
will prefer to have sex with bots instead of other humans,
and then sex does not create new life - extinction.

Alberto Monteiro

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Re: Spore

[Alberto Monteiro]

Bryon Daly wrote:
> 
> The reality is that the draconian DRM really doesn't stop piracy at 
> all.   A cracked version was already available on the torrents the 
> day before the game was on the store shelves.  The pirates, of 
> course, have that version and are never troubled by the DRM system. 
>
So, the ethical and logical thing to do is to buy the official
game, and then buy the pirated version, as if this was an
enhancement :-)

Alberto Monteiro

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Re: Not Buying It

[Julia Thompson]

On Thu, 25 Sep 2008, Alberto Monteiro wrote:



Jon Louis Mann wrote:


We need another FDR to
start up some a new CCC, WWW etc.


What are those AFTs? CCC is Brazil was "Comando de Caça aos Comunistas"
(hint: Caça = Hunt, the other words are the same in English). And
WWW sounds terribly like WWIII... I hope I don't preach the same
solution to 29, meaning a WW? (OTOH, it might not be so bad... Billions
dead in the first minutes, and let the survivors think how to
manage the remains of the scorched Earth).


CCC = Civilian Conservation Corps
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_Conservation_Corps

WWW?  Dunno.  Did Jon mean WPA?  That would be Works Progress 
Administration.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Works_Progress_Administration

The umbrella label for the whole thing was the New Deal.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_deal if you want to read more about 
various "alphabet soup" programs


Julia
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Re: PBS NewsHour report on bailout

[John Williams]

Julia Thompson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

> I was wanting a "Trix are for kids!"-type line right after that.

That was what I was thinking too, but inspiration did not strike. The
whole subject just makes me too sad. WSJ did a  poll the other day
and more than 75% of the respondents thought the bailout was a bad
idea, and yet the prediction markets are saying the bailout has better
than a 75% chance of passing. And the major parties seem to be 
supporting it, only arguing about insignificant details such as limits
on executive pay. Hello, we are talking about spending $700B or more
and they are arguing over millions here and there that aren't even
taxpayer dollars?


  

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Re: Books, was Proper function..

[John Williams]

Martin Lewis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>


> I liked it:
> 
> http://www.strangehorizons.com/reviews/2008/09/anathem_by_neal.shtml

Interesting review. I must admit this comparison would have never occurred to 
me:

"In fact, with its longeurs and constant debate, it occasionally resembles an 
unholy hybrid of The Republic and Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince, and 
it can be every bit as tediously wearing as that sounds."

I haven't read either of those, but I believe I can see what you are getting 
at. Although I didn't find it as tedious as you suggest, since I didn't expect 
a lot of character depth from Stephenson, and I tended to glide over the 
philosophy passages. 

One thing you didn't get into in the review which I found interesting was the 
segregation of Tens, Hundreders, and Thousanders, and the effects this had on 
preserving (or creating) knowledge and culture. Actually, I think Stephenson 
could have done more with the idea, butwell, I was going to say something 
that might give away too much for those who haven't read it yet. Rather than 
discuss it now (with a warning), I think I wait until a few more people here 
have read it.


  

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Re: Some random thoughts on Wall St. and the meltdown

[Charlie Bell]

On 25/09/2008, at 11:45 PM, Richard Baker wrote:

> Charlie said:
>
>> Which is why, to take a completely random example, I weigh Dan's and
>> Rich's opinions on physics or the oil industry far higher than I do
>> Dan's on biology or economics, or Rich's on modern warfare (say...)
>
> I'm pretty sure that I know much more about modern warfare than I do
> about the oil industry!

Oops, missed out a "or Dan's on" just before the oil industry...

Charlie

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Re: Appropriate metaphors (was Re: Meltdown)

[Julia Thompson]

On Wed, 24 Sep 2008, Dave Land wrote:

> On Sep 24, 2008, at 11:03 AM, Nick Arnett wrote:
>
>> On Wed, Sep 24, 2008 at 10:16 AM, Dave Land <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> There is, of course, a remedy: find another list to dog.
>>
>> My dogs are offended by this.
>>
>> Let's stick to offending trolls.
>
> My trolls are offended by this.
>
> Are you trying to tell me what to do? Because if you are trying
> to tell me what to do, I won't do it, and you can't make me.
>
> Neener, Neener Maru

"Neener, Neener"?

Well, "PHHHTT!" to you!

Julia

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Re: PBS NewsHour report on bailout

[Julia Thompson]

On Thu, 25 Sep 2008, John Williams wrote:

> Bruce Bostwick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
>
>> Except they're not major stockholders anymore.  Private ownership is
>> onlt 20% of AIG's stock now, the Fed owns 80% and thus can veto any
>> shareholder buyout if it wants to.  (Unless that changed in the past
>> few days and I missed it.)
>
> It is ironic, but I believe the point was that there was no need for the
> government to get involved in the first place, since the private sector
> is now talking about injecting more capital. Silly government!

I was wanting a "Trix are for kids!"-type line right after that.

Anyone?

Julia

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Re: PBS NewsHour report on bailout

[Julia Thompson]

On Thu, 25 Sep 2008, Bruce Bostwick wrote:

> On Sep 24, 2008, at 9:03 PM, John Williams wrote:
>
>> We had AIG turn down three offers to buy the company because they
>> thought they would get a better deal from the government. It turned
>> out they didn't get the better deal from the government. Now the
>> stockholders suddenly woke up and said -- the major stockholders
>> said, "We'd like to buy the company."
>
> Except they're not major stockholders anymore.  Private ownership is
> onlt 20% of AIG's stock now, the Fed owns 80% and thus can veto any
> shareholder buyout if it wants to.  (Unless that changed in the past
> few days and I missed it.)
>
> "I don't know what kind of salad it is.  I'm eating a salad, okay?
> I'm doing it.  Do I have to know the names?  There's no difference
> between them.  It's a bowl of weeds.  Some of 'em have cheese.  This
> isn't the kind with cheese.  Does that answer your question?" -- Toby
> Ziegler

And it's certainly not a salad with Cheese Whiz, then!

(Was that one deliberate?)

Julia

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Re: Meltdown

[Julia Thompson]

On Wed, 24 Sep 2008, John Williams wrote:

> xponentrob <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
>>
>> There's lots about this list and the people on it you know nothing about.
>> A lot of history here in over a decade.
>
> So I don't owe you 10 bucks?

Eh, if you do, I'll cover it.  It'll give me an excuse to see the guy if I 
insist on delivering it in person.  :)

Julia

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Re: PBS NewsHour report on bailout

[John Williams]

Bruce Bostwick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

 
> Except they're not major stockholders anymore.  Private ownership is  
> onlt 20% of AIG's stock now, the Fed owns 80% and thus can veto any  
> shareholder buyout if it wants to.  (Unless that changed in the past  
> few days and I missed it.)

It is ironic, but I believe the point was that there was no need for the 
government to get involved in the first place, since the private sector
is now talking about injecting more capital. Silly government!


  

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Re: Some random thoughts on Wall St. and the meltdown

[Richard Baker]

Charlie said:

> Which is why, to take a completely random example, I weigh Dan's and
> Rich's opinions on physics or the oil industry far higher than I do
> Dan's on biology or economics, or Rich's on modern warfare (say...)

I'm pretty sure that I know much more about modern warfare than I do  
about the oil industry!

Rich
GCU ;)
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Re: PBS NewsHour report on bailout

[Charlie Bell]

On 25/09/2008, at 10:37 PM, Bruce Bostwick wrote:

> On Sep 24, 2008, at 9:03 PM, John Williams wrote:
>
>> We had AIG turn down three offers to buy the company because they
>> thought they would get a better deal from the government. It turned
>> out they didn't get the better deal from the government. Now the
>> stockholders suddenly woke up and said -- the major stockholders
>> said, "We'd like to buy the company."
>
> Except they're not major stockholders anymore.  Private ownership is
> onlt 20% of AIG's stock now, the Fed owns 80% and thus can veto any
> shareholder buyout if it wants to.  (Unless that changed in the past
> few days and I missed it.)

Yes. The irony of the party of small government effectively  
nationalising a company has not escaped me.

Charlie.
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Re: Some random thoughts on Wall St. and the meltdown

[Charlie Bell]

On 25/09/2008, at 10:31 PM, Bruce Bostwick wrote:

> On Sep 24, 2008, at 9:37 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
>> Requiring qualifications to express an opinion is demanding the
>> acceptance of argument from authority, a poor place to situate
>> foundations.
>
> Especially for those of us with enough understanding to form opinions
> of our own.  The fact that I am not Somebody important shouldn't take
> away from the value of what I have to say, if the idea can stand on
> its own merits.  :)

Anyone can have an opinion, but surely it's better to at least agree  
that someone who has studied a field and has experience in that field  
might know more about that field than someone who just read the  
Wikipedia article. They might still, of course, be wrong. But it's  
more likely that they'll be nearer right than someone who did  
something entirely different.

There are always exceptions. Some people are truly polymathic. Some  
people just have obscure hobbies that they're really really into.  
That'll come out in conversation, no doubt. But the truth is,  
everyone's opinion on a particular subject is *not* as valid as  
everyone else's.

Which is why, to take a completely random example, I weigh Dan's and  
Rich's opinions on physics or the oil industry far higher than I do  
Dan's on biology or economics, or Rich's on modern warfare (say...),  
but give Rich weight on history of ancient civilisations 'cause I know  
he's a very keen amateur.

It's just how it is. In general, people on this List are very well  
read and know a lot. But we don't all know the same stuff. Which it's  
why it's great to see people try to back up their opinions, and in the  
best discussions, see a mind changed here and there.

Charlie.


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Re: PBS NewsHour report on bailout

[Bruce Bostwick]

On Sep 24, 2008, at 9:03 PM, John Williams wrote:

> We had AIG turn down three offers to buy the company because they  
> thought they would get a better deal from the government. It turned  
> out they didn't get the better deal from the government. Now the  
> stockholders suddenly woke up and said -- the major stockholders  
> said, "We'd like to buy the company."

Except they're not major stockholders anymore.  Private ownership is  
onlt 20% of AIG's stock now, the Fed owns 80% and thus can veto any  
shareholder buyout if it wants to.  (Unless that changed in the past  
few days and I missed it.)

"I don't know what kind of salad it is.  I'm eating a salad, okay?
I'm doing it.  Do I have to know the names?  There's no difference  
between them.  It's a bowl of weeds.  Some of 'em have cheese.  This  
isn't the kind with cheese.  Does that answer your question?" -- Toby  
Ziegler

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Re: Meltdown

[Bruce Bostwick]

On Sep 24, 2008, at 6:53 PM, John Williams wrote:

> Rceeberger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
>> You are Eric Reuter and I demand my 10 bucks.
>
> Huh?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lobby_Lud

"I think we invested time and money teaching her how to fly a warplane  
which, it turns out, she does very well, and there aren't that many  
who do, so I'm gonna go ahead and pick national security over caring  
who she sleeps with." -- Toby Ziegler



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Re: Some random thoughts on Wall St. and the meltdown

[Bruce Bostwick]

On Sep 24, 2008, at 9:37 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> Requiring qualifications to express an opinion is demanding the
> acceptance of argument from authority, a poor place to situate  
> foundations.

Especially for those of us with enough understanding to form opinions  
of our own.  The fact that I am not Somebody important shouldn't take  
away from the value of what I have to say, if the idea can stand on  
its own merits.  :)

"Freedom is never voluntarily given by the oppressor.  It must be  
demanded by the oppressed." -- M. L. King

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Re: Science and Ideals.

[Bruce Bostwick]

On Sep 24, 2008, at 9:12 AM, John Williams wrote:

>> Conscript them like a jury.
>
> Unfortunately, I imagine that forcing people to be politicians
> would destroy most good qualities that they might have had
> in the job.

The "politician" part is more involved in seeking office than in  
exercising it.

I've thought myself, often, that drafting our leadership would if  
nothing else give us a government that actually represents us, and  
would remove the incentive to exploit the power of the office for the  
sole purpose of getting re-elected, which is what we have now.  It's  
much harder to game that system than it is to game the current one by  
manipulating voters into wanting to vote for you.

"Listen, when you get home tonight, you're gonna be confronted by the  
instinct to drink a lot. Trust that instinct. Manage the pain. Don't  
try to be a hero." -- Toby Ziegler


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RE: ITAR and space based solar power.

[Curtis Burisch]

>> One of my friends thinks my concept work on reducing the cost of 
>> materials transport by sub orbital rocket and multi GW propulsion 
>> laser would not cause me any trouble even if I went on a lecture tour 
>> about it in China.  Others think I would be arrested and jailed for

Two sides to this. First is, if anyone has the quadrillions of dollars
required to actually implement your considerably audacious plan, they will
assuredly have enough money to develop other, more destructive weapons, for
lower cost.

The second is, you don't need a massive space based laser to cause massive
damage. Simply strap a booster to any moderately sized asteroid, and nudge
it toward the earthbound target. Cheap and very very dangerous.

c

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Re: Books, was Proper function..

[David Hobby]

John Williams wrote:
> Max Battcher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 
> 
>> Um... that's the plot of the book.  She's a sexbot designed for having sex
>> with humans but there aren't any humans left to have sex with...
> 
> Now I'm wondering what happened to all the humans. I'll definitely
> have to check it out now.

They got "distracted", and stopped reproducing.  : )

---David


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Re: ITAR and space based solar power.

[David Hobby]

hkhenson wrote:
> I have a problem where I could really use some advice--or at least 
> put my qualms on the record.
...
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Traffic_in_Arms_Regulations
...
> One of my friends thinks my concept work on reducing the cost of 
> materials transport by sub orbital rocket and multi GW propulsion 
> laser would not cause me any trouble even if I went on a lecture tour 
> about it in China.  Others think I would be arrested and jailed for 
...
> The conference is open to US citizens only.  What agreements are 
> required, I don't know.
...

Keith--

The US government is hard to predict, but isn't
your stuff sufficiently removed from the "hardware"
side of things that you'd be safe?  It's probably
already been "published", as well, so whatever the
damage to American security is, it's already
happened.

Just don't give the Chinese the SECRET SPACE LASER
PLANS...

Good luck!
---David

Global energy weapon Maru
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Re: Meltdown

[Rceeberger]

On 9/24/2008 11:17:26 PM, John Williams ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
> xponentrob <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 
> >
> >
> There's lots about this list and the people on it you know nothing about.
> > A lot of history here in over a decade.
> 
> So I don't
> owe you 10 bucks?
> 

No
There is a lot about pop culture you don't know about either apparently.


xponent
Game Shows Maru
rob
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Re: Books, was Proper function..

[Martin Lewis]

On Wed, Sep 24, 2008 at 11:55 PM, John Williams
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>> post-cyberpunk world before writing Cryptonomicom, a sort of Slashdot
>> version of the 20th Century. Anathem is what Cryptonomicom would be if
>> it covered the whole of Western civilisaton from Plato onwards.
>
> For someone who has read Anathem but not Cryptonomicon, can you expand
> on the "Slashdot version of the 20th Century"? The slashdot comment makes me
> think of Stand on Zanzibar, but I guess that is not what you meant.

 It just ticks all the boxes for that crowd: history of computing,
data havens, conspiracy theories, random trivia.

> What did you think of Anathem?

 I liked it:

 http://www.strangehorizons.com/reviews/2008/09/anathem_by_neal.shtml

 Martin
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Re: Spore

[Charlie Bell]

On 25/09/2008, at 10:51 AM, Bryon Daly wrote:

> On Wed, Sep 24, 2008 at 10:08 AM, Charlie Bell <[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> >wrote:
>
>> Who's playing? What are your screen names?
>
>
> I was planning on buying Spore, but the "only 3 installations for a  
> game you
> purchased" deal is where I've drawn my line in the DRM sand.

They've binned that policy now.

Charlie.
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Re: Teleology

[Charlie Bell]

On 25/09/2008, at 6:19 AM, Jon Louis Mann wrote:
>> Yes, most of us know what teleology is. Why did you post a
>> definitition of teleology in response to my descriptions of
>> evolution as non-teleological?
>> Charlie.
>
> I recall the term from philosophy 101, but that was over 40 years  
> ago.  I googled it to refresh my memory and didn't think it would  
> cause any harm to save others the trouble.
> Pas de quoi

Aha. Fair enough, I was just confuzzled then. On we go.

Charlie.
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Re: Books, was Proper function..

[Richard Baker]

Doug said:

> But you must have read thousands of pages of history!

About sixty thousand pages of history, I'd estimate. Not nearly  
enough, anyway.

But the problem is the opportunity cost of reading the Baroque Cycle.  
In that number of pages I could get through, for example, the whole  
surviving part of Livy's history of Rome, or a handful of modern  
histories. I'll get to it eventually, I suppose.

Rich
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