Re: Trolls

[Max Battcher]

On 9/7/2010 20:43, John Williams wrote:

On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 5:39 PM, David Hobby  wrote:


Well, that was certainly "helpful".

---David

I'm no help either, though.


We both helped increase list traffic, which has been quite low...


To be perfectly frank, I don't think anyone can be of much help on this 
matter with regard to Facebook. I think Facebook has made it perfectly 
clear that it is not in the business of enabling discussion. It's in the 
business of selling ads... Unfortunately, trolls use ads too. I suspect 
trolls actually use more ads, thus "paying" for the right to be jerks, 
but I certainly don't have the ad metrics to data mine in order to test 
that particular hypothesis.


The lesson: more "privately hosted" mailing lists, less Facebook. Please.

--
--Max Battcher--
http://worldmaker.net

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Re: Trolls

[John Williams]

On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 5:39 PM, David Hobby  wrote:

> Well, that was certainly "helpful".
>
>                        ---David
>
> I'm no help either, though.

We both helped increase list traffic, which has been quite low...

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Re: Trolls

[David Hobby]

On 9/7/2010 3:19 PM, John Williams wrote:

On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 12:07 PM, Jon Louis Mann  wrote:

Some time ago I unsubscribed from this list because of the comments of one 
person who has since matured.  Now I am having a similar problem with someone 
on Dr. Brin's FB page.


If there is nothing wrong with me, maybe there's something wrong with
the universe.
--ST:TNG, Dr. Beverly Crusher


John--

Well, that was certainly "helpful".

---David

I'm no help either, though.

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Re: Trolls

[John Williams]

On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 12:07 PM, Jon Louis Mann  wrote:
> Some time ago I unsubscribed from this list because of the comments of one 
> person who has since matured.  Now I am having a similar problem with someone 
> on Dr. Brin's FB page.

If there is nothing wrong with me, maybe there's something wrong with
the universe.
--ST:TNG, Dr. Beverly Crusher

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Trolls

[Jon Louis Mann]

Some time ago I unsubscribed from this list because of the comments of one 
person who has since matured.  Now I am having a similar problem with someone 
on Dr. Brin's FB page.  I sent him the following e-mail and then it occurred to 
me I could just ask the list:

I have a question you may not be able to answer, David, about how to block 
Facebook trolls if I can't access their page to do so.
As I participate more and more on Facebook, I discovered out that it is 
possible to selectively delete, or block, specific persons from reading your 
comments, so you don't know if they are responding to something you posted, and 
making personal attacks. Kind of a coward's way to avoid honest debate.
I realize that sometimes there are excellent reasons for blocking someone, such 
as when it's clear that a dialog is incapable of going anywhere and someone is 
just trying to get your goat.  Blocking them eliminates them from engaging you 
to participate in further futile interaction. 
That's not what this is; it's two people (who are possibly the same person) who 
blocked me after I figured out what they were doing. They can still read and 
respond to my posts, but without me knowing. 
I tried to block them so they can no longer respond to my comments, but since 
already blocked me, I cannot do the  same to them. One of them sent me private 
messages, gloating, and I can't even respond to that.  The other even has a 
profile picture of a troll!~)
I would stop replying, but I thoroughly enjoy participating in the civilized 
discourse with others on your page. It is extremely irritating to see others 
responding to the troll's comments following mine, and not know what was said...
My question is; how can I block them after they have already blocked me from 
finding them on FB?
Thanks,
Jon Mann


  

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Re: Brin Wiki and Trolls

[David Hobby]

Jon Louis Mann wrote:

... My sense is that this is a philosophical thing to him--he's in
the "Deletionist" camp on Wikipedia, who want to limit the number
of articles on "non-notable topics".  (He also questions articles
on minor academic journals, people I've never heard of, and so on.)


...

Thanks, David, for that succinct, but thorough explanation of what
motivates the troll and one way to circumvent it.  The fact that this
character is operating behind a false persona indicates he doesn't
even have the convictions of his "philosophical" principles. ---Jon


Jon--

Actually, using a nickname is very common among
Wikipedia editors, good and bad.  (It took me a
while to figure out who "Albmont" was, even.)

---David


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Re: Brin Wiki and Trolls

[Medievalbk]

Brin-L and Wiki and Trolls:
 
 
Brin-L and Wiki and Trolls--oh my
 
Brin-L and Wiki and Trolls--oh my
 
 
"By the way the brain it dumbs, something Wiki this way comes."
 
Vilyehm


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Brin Wiki and Trolls

[Jon Louis Mann]

> Jon Louis Mann wrote:
> > I don't understand turning the Alliance for Progress
> Encyclopedia into a wiki format or what's a Brin Wiki
> > but I am all for doing anything to block trolls from
> removing any of Dr. Brin's contributions to the SF lexicon

> Jon-- 
> Hi.  I guess the conversation got a bit 
> involved there.  The "troll" wants to remove
> some free-standing articles from Wikipedia.  
> Notably those on Alvin (the young Hoon on Jijo)
> and on the Streaker.  My sense is that this
> is a philosophical thing to him--he's in the 
> "Deletionist" camp on Wikipedia, who want to 
> limit the number of articles on "non-notable 
> topics".  (He also questions articles on minor
> academic journals, people I've never heard of, 
> and so on.)
> Whether or not the Alvin and Streaker articles 
> stay, our sense was that it would be easier to 
> build an extensive Wiki without the "contributions" 
> of people like him.  Hence the plan to set something
> up apart from Wikipedia.           
> ---David

Thanks, David, for that succinct, but thorough explanation of what motivates 
the troll and one way to circumvent it.  The fact that this character is 
operating behind a false persona indicates he doesn't even have the convictions 
of his "philosophical" principles.
  ---Jon


  

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Re: Brin Wiki and trolls

[David Hobby]

Jon Louis Mann wrote:

I don't understand turning the Alliance for Progress Encyclopedia
into a wiki format or what's a Brin Wiki, but I am all for doing
anything to block trolls from remove any of Dr. Brin's contributions
to the SF lexicon.


Jon--

Hi.  I guess the conversation got a bit involved
there.  The "troll" wants to remove some free-standing
articles from Wikipedia.  Notably those on Alvin (the young
Hoon on Jijo) and on the Streaker.  My sense is that this
is a philosophical thing to him--he's in the "Deletionist"
camp on Wikipedia, who want to limit the number of articles
on "non-notable topics".  (He also questions articles on
minor academic journals, people I've never heard of, and
so on.)

Whether or not the Alvin and Streaker articles stay,
our sense was that it would be easier to build an
extensive Wiki without the "contributions" of people
like him.  Hence the plan to set something up apart
from Wikipedia.

---David

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Brin Wiki and trolls

[Jon Louis Mann]

I don't understand turning the Alliance for Progress Encyclopedia into
a wiki format or what's a Brin Wiki, but I am all for doing anything to block 
trolls from remove any of Dr. Brin's contributions to the SF lexicon.  

I wonder why is someone running a seek-and-destroy against Brin; who is the 
troll and why target David?  I have never been able to understand this troll 
phenomenon.

I don't follow the references to fan fic and whether it should not be included 
in a Brin Wiki. 

I am in favor of cooperation and forgiving the past, especially since I won't 
have a clue what is to forgive?  I agree that everything seems much more 
relaxed than the last time I gafiated from the list.


  

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Re: The wikipedia trolls may win again (III) :-/

[David Hobby]

...
It seems like they are running a seek-and-destroy against every Brin 
stuff in wikipedia. After Alvin, the trolls will delete Streaker.


The Troll is targeting for deletion: Gubru, G'Kek, EarthClan, 
Tymbrimi, Streaker (David Brin), Jophur, and Alvin Hph-wayuo.

...

If we want the articles to stay up on Wikipedia, the best defense is
references to them in books not written by David Brin.  Does anybody know
any?

---David

___

Jumping in here without reading the whole thread (bad form, I know, but I
have no time to even be reading what I've read and replying *now*), but an
amazon.com search might turn something up.  It's given me stupid references
to things inside books when I've been looking for just one thing in
particular, so, at least in theory, that should work now.

Julia

...

Julia--

Thanks for the suggestion.  Google Book Search seems better, though.
I found a synopsis in _What do I read next? 97_ that way.
(Or little snippets of it, since that's what the search returned.)

So I put that and some other references in the Alvin article, removed
the tags from it, and put it (and 15 more Brin-related pages) on my
watchlist.

The sense I get is that Abductive is on a crusade against poorly-sourced
articles.  It's silly in a way, since it's easy enough to hunt up
sources, and putting them in doesn't really improve the articles.
The best spin I can put on his actions are that he's trying to get
people to improve "their" articles.  Once people have put enough
effort into an article to add references, it WILL probably be a
good article.

---David

Oh, and Happy New Year to everybody!

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RE: The wikipedia trolls may win again (III) :-/

[Julia Thompson]

 

-Original Message-
From: brin-l-boun...@mccmedia.com [mailto:brin-l-boun...@mccmedia.com] On
Behalf Of David Hobby
Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 2:42 PM
To: Killer Bs (David Brin et al) Discussion
Subject: Re: The wikipedia trolls may win again (III) :-/

...
>> It seems like they are running a seek-and-destroy against every Brin 
>> stuff in wikipedia. After Alvin, the trolls will delete Streaker.
>>
> The Troll is targeting for deletion: Gubru, G'Kek, EarthClan, 
> Tymbrimi, Streaker (David Brin), Jophur, and Alvin Hph-wayuo.
> 
> It must be a Brin-hater.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?
> title=Special:Contributions&limit=50&target=Abductive

So the user is "Abductive", and he seems to spend a lot of time proposing
articles for deletion.  All except Streaker now just have "notability" tags,
which seem mild enough to leave.  But it could well be the first step in a
campaign.  He seems to not have status much higher than the rest of us
editors, so the articles won't be deleted without due process.

If we want the articles to stay up on Wikipedia, the best defense is
references to them in books not written by David Brin.  Does anybody know
any?

---David

___

Jumping in here without reading the whole thread (bad form, I know, but I
have no time to even be reading what I've read and replying *now*), but an
amazon.com search might turn something up.  It's given me stupid references
to things inside books when I've been looking for just one thing in
particular, so, at least in theory, that should work now.

Julia

and no, I don't have time to do the searches myself any time this week


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Re: The wikipedia trolls may win again (III) :-/

[Trent Shipley]

Alberto Monteiro wrote:

> David Hobby wrote:
>   
>> So the user is "Abductive", and he seems to spend a lot
>> of time proposing articles for deletion.  
>>
>> 
> It's probably an "attack account": a sock puppet of a known
> user, created to give anonimity to a coward behavior (if it
> used the _real_ account, we might retaliate by proposing for
> deletion _its_ articles!).
>
> In the Portuguese wikipedia those trolls are severely
> repressed; one editor who abused sock-puppeteering was
> banned until after 2012-12-21.
>
>   
>> If we want the articles to stay up on Wikipedia, the
>> best defense is references to them in books not written
>> by David Brin.  Does anybody know any?
>>
>> 
> Probably some science fiction magazines have material about
> Brin's characters, races, etc. Also, there's GURPS Uplift,
> who is _not_ by Him.
>
> (and I still think Category should not be in the magma table!!!)
>
> Alberto Monteiro
>
>
> ___
> http://mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
>
>
>
>
>   
All of which does not change the fact that Abductive is correct.  The
articles previously mentioned in this family of threads simply do not
meet en-Wikipedia's notablity guidelines.

See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Notability_%28books%29

gives:

*This page in a nutshell:* A book is generally notable if it verifiably
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:V> meets through reliable
sources <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources>, *one*
or more of the following criteria:

   1. The book has been the subject^[1]
  
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Notability_%28books%29#cite_note-subject-0>
  of multiple, non-trivial^[2]
  
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Notability_%28books%29#cite_note-nontrivial-1>
  published works whose sources are independent of the book
  itself,^[3]
  
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Notability_%28books%29#cite_note-independent-2>
  with at least some of these works serving a general audience. This
  includes published works in all forms, such as newspaper articles,
  other books, television documentaries and reviews. Some of these
  works should contain sufficient critical commentary to allow the
  article to grow past a simple plot summary
  <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:PLOT>.
  * The immediately preceding criterion excludes media re-prints
of press releases, flap copy, or other publications where
the author, its publisher, agent, or other self-interested
parties advertise or speak about the book.^[4]

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Notability_%28books%29#cite_note-selfpromotion-3>

   2. The book has won a major literary award
  <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Literary_awards>.
   3. The book has been considered by reliable sources to have made a
  significant contribution to a notable motion picture, or other art
  form, or event or political or religious movement.
   4. The book is the subject of instruction at multiple grade schools,
  high schools, universities /or/ post-graduate programs in any
  particular country.^[5]
  
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Notability_%28books%29#cite_note-textbooks-4>

   5. The book's author is so historically significant that any of his
  or her written works may be considered notable.^[6]
  
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Notability_%28books%29#cite_note-study-5>




And


Derivative articles

Shortcut <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Shortcut>:
WP:BKD <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:BKD>

It is a general consensus on Wikipedia that articles should not be split
and split again into ever more minutiae of detail treatment, with each
split normally lowering the level of notability. What this means is that
while a book may be notable, it is not normally advisable to have a
separate article on a character or thing from the book, and it is often
the case that despite the book being manifestly notable, a derivative
article from it is not. Exceptions do, of course, exist—especially in
the case of very famous books. For example few would argue that Charles
Dickens <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Dickens>' /A Christmas
Carol <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Christmas_Carol>/ does not warrant
a 'subarticle' on its protagonist, Ebenezer Scrooge
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ebenezer_Scrooge>.

In some situations, where the book itself does not fit the established
criteria for notability, or if the book is notable but the author has an
article in Wikipedia, it may be

Re: The wikipedia trolls may win again (III) :-/

[Alberto Monteiro]

Matt Grimaldi wrote:
>
 It must be a Brin-hater.
>>> 
>>> Any clue to the identity of the troll?
>>> 
>> Who cares? Unless you are the owner of a Death Note, there's nothing
>> we could do.
> 
> Don't you also need a picture of his face for that?
> 
Yes - but it's easier to get the picture from the name than the
name from the picture, unless you have Shinigami eyes.

Alberto Monteiro


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Re: The wikipedia trolls may win again (III) :-/

[Matt Grimaldi]

Don't you also need a picture of his face for that?

-- Matt



- Original Message 
From: Alberto Monteiro 
To: Killer Bs (David Brin et al) Discussion 
Sent: Tue, December 29, 2009 8:08:00 AM
Subject: RE: The wikipedia trolls may win again (III) :-/


Julia wrote:
>
>> The Troll is targeting for deletion: Gubru, G'Kek, EarthClan,
>>  Tymbrimi, Streaker (David Brin), Jophur, and Alvin Hph-wayuo.
> 
>> It must be a Brin-hater.
> 
> Any clue to the identity of the troll?
> 
Who cares? Unless you are the owner of a Death Note, there's nothing
we could do.

Alberto Monteiro


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Re: The wikipedia trolls may win again (III) :-/

[Alberto Monteiro]

David Hobby wrote:
> 
> So the user is "Abductive", and he seems to spend a lot
> of time proposing articles for deletion.  
>
It's probably an "attack account": a sock puppet of a known
user, created to give anonimity to a coward behavior (if it
used the _real_ account, we might retaliate by proposing for
deletion _its_ articles!).

In the Portuguese wikipedia those trolls are severely
repressed; one editor who abused sock-puppeteering was
banned until after 2012-12-21.

> If we want the articles to stay up on Wikipedia, the
> best defense is references to them in books not written
> by David Brin.  Does anybody know any?
> 
Probably some science fiction magazines have material about
Brin's characters, races, etc. Also, there's GURPS Uplift,
who is _not_ by Him.

(and I still think Category should not be in the magma table!!!)

Alberto Monteiro


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Re: The wikipedia trolls may win again (III) :-/

[David Hobby]

...
It seems like they are running a seek-and-destroy against every Brin 
stuff in wikipedia. After Alvin, the trolls will delete Streaker.



The Troll is targeting for deletion: Gubru, G'Kek, EarthClan, Tymbrimi,
Streaker (David Brin), Jophur, and Alvin Hph-wayuo.

It must be a Brin-hater.
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?
title=Special:Contributions&limit=50&target=Abductive


So the user is "Abductive", and he seems to spend a lot
of time proposing articles for deletion.  All except
Streaker now just have "notability" tags, which seem
mild enough to leave.  But it could well be the first
step in a campaign.  He seems to not have status much
higher than the rest of us editors, so the articles won't
be deleted without due process.

If we want the articles to stay up on Wikipedia, the
best defense is references to them in books not written
by David Brin.  Does anybody know any?

---David

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RE: The wikipedia trolls may win again (III) :-/

[Alberto Monteiro]

Julia wrote:
>
>> The Troll is targeting for deletion: Gubru, G'Kek, EarthClan,
>>  Tymbrimi, Streaker (David Brin), Jophur, and Alvin Hph-wayuo.
> 
>> It must be a Brin-hater.
> 
> Any clue to the identity of the troll?
> 
Who cares? Unless you are the owner of a Death Note, there's nothing
we could do.

Alberto Monteiro


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RE: The wikipedia trolls may win again (III) :-/

[Julia]

 

-Original Message-
From: brin-l-boun...@mccmedia.com [mailto:brin-l-boun...@mccmedia.com] On
Behalf Of Alberto Monteiro
Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 6:35 AM
To: Killer Bs (David Brin et al) Discussion
Subject: The wikipedia trolls may win again (III) :-/


> It seems like they are running a seek-and-destroy against every Brin 
> stuff in wikipedia. After Alvin, the trolls will delete Streaker.
> 
The Troll is targeting for deletion: Gubru, G'Kek, EarthClan, Tymbrimi,
Streaker (David Brin), Jophur, and Alvin Hph-wayuo.

It must be a Brin-hater.
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?
title=Special:Contributions&limit=50&target=Abductive

Alberto Monteiro




___


Any clue to the identity of the troll?

Julia


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The wikipedia trolls may win again (III) :-/

[Alberto Monteiro]

> It seems like they are running a seek-and-destroy against every Brin
> stuff in wikipedia. After Alvin, the trolls will delete Streaker.
> 
The Troll is targeting for deletion: Gubru, G'Kek, EarthClan, Tymbrimi,
Streaker (David Brin), Jophur, and Alvin Hph-wayuo.

It must be a Brin-hater.
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?
title=Special:Contributions&limit=50&target=Abductive

Alberto Monteiro




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The wikipedia trolls may win again (II) :-/

[Alberto Monteiro]

It seems like they are running a seek-and-destroy against every Brin
stuff in wikipedia. After Alvin, the trolls will delete Streaker.

I will save the articles in txt files; when the Brin wiki is set up 
I will recreate them. It's a pity that the history will be
lost - I created those two articles, but they have expanded beyond
what I wrote.

Alberto Monteiro


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Re: The wikipedia trolls may win again :-/

[Alberto Monteiro]

Trent Shipley wrote:
>
> David Brin is an important science fiction author so he merits 
> mention in Wikipedia. The Jijo trilogy merits mention. Each book in 
> the trilogy merits an article. However, each book is based on an 
> ensemble cast. Alvin is an ensemble character in trilogy by an 
> author of moderate importance in a work of moderate importance. Thus,
>  Alvin is too trivial to be in Wikipedia.
> 
> If he were a Shakespeare character, no matter how minor, he would be 
> in Wikipedia, because Shakespeare is a very important author. If he 
> were a minor Naruto character he might rate an article because 
> Naruto is very popular. But as it is, Alvin doesn't meet the 
> criteria for important enough.
>
This is not what the owner of that thing said.

http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wiki_is_not_paper

  "There is no reason why there shouldn't be a page for every
   Simpsons character, and even a table listing every episode,
   all neatly cross-linked and introduced by a shorter central
   page. Every episode name in the list could link to a separate
   page for each of those episodes, with links to reviews and
   trivia. Each of the 100+ poker games can have its own page
   with rules, history, and strategy. Jimbo Wales has agreed:
   Hard disks are cheap."

So, it's just trolls that want to remove fictional character pages;
after all, Dei Lucrii, Time Regained (film), Jia Xiaozhong,
Montesquieu-Guittaut, Märkische Schweiz (Amt), Homage for Satan,
and Pudian Road (Shanghai Metro) could be more important than Alvin?

Alberto Monteiro


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Re: The wikipedia trolls may win again :-/

[David Hobby]

Charlie Bell wrote:

On 29/12/2009, at 3:44 AM, David Hobby wrote:


Alberto--

Wow, I guess it is my place to battle.  I've been going back and
forth with the "troll", at: 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Alvin_Hph-wayuo


Some of this is because I don't really understand his criteria, or
what the problem is with having an entry.


Maybe it should be merged into a "List of Characters in the Second
Uplift Trilogy" page, however.

I get the notability issue - Brin is notable, his books are, but all
the characters getting an individual entry, or even many of them?


Charlie--

I agree, one has to draw the line some place.
Though this guy does seem to be a stickler about
notability.

---David


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Re: The wikipedia trolls may win again :-/

[Max Battcher]

On 12/28/2009 5:18, Alberto Monteiro wrote:

Yes, it's a stub, and fortunately so. Another stupid decision
made in the English wikipedia was that spoilers are _not_
marked as such. Just take a look a the article about


English Wikipedia does provide standard spoiler warning templates, but 
unlike some of the other (*cough*less useful*cough*) templates, like the 
lack of citation and "just a stub" warnings, to my knowledge there 
aren't Spoiler nazis in En.Wikipedia plugging them into every article in 
existence.



"The Jesus Chainsaw Massacre" movie...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Passion_of_the_Christ
... or about the Titanic (the nazi rip-off by Cameron)...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titanic_(1997_film)
... and see how carelessly it gives the end of both movies without
respect for those who don't know the stories!


To be fair, the statute of spoiler limitations has run out on both of 
them, being semi-historical in nature. I also don't think the 
intentionally fictional elements of Titanic are substantial enough to be 
spoiled, but that's just my opinion.


--
--Max Battcher--
http://worldmaker.net

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Re: The wikipedia trolls may win again :-/

[Charlie Bell]

On 29/12/2009, at 3:44 AM, David Hobby wrote:
> 
> 
> Alberto--
> 
> Wow, I guess it is my place to battle.  I've been going
> back and forth with the "troll", at:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Alvin_Hph-wayuo
> 
> Some of this is because I don't really understand his
> criteria, or what the problem is with having an entry.

Maybe it should be merged into a "List of Characters in the Second Uplift 
Trilogy" page, however. 

I get the notability issue - Brin is notable, his books are, but all the 
characters getting an individual entry, or even many of them?

Charlie.
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Re: The wikipedia trolls may win again :-/

[Trent Shipley]

David Hobby wrote:

> Alberto Monteiro wrote:
>> David Hobby wrote:
>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alvin_Hph-wayuo
>>> Alberto--
>>>
>>> Hi.  I think you can make a good case to keep it,
>>> since it involves a major character in a series
>>> of popular science fiction novels.
>>>
>> No, not my language, not my place to battle. I've tried
>> to keep the Portuguese language trolls away from deleting
>> relevant material - I can say I have been half-successful.
>
> Alberto--
>
> Wow, I guess it is my place to battle.  I've been going
> back and forth with the "troll", at:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Alvin_Hph-wayuo
>
> Some of this is because I don't really understand his
> criteria, or what the problem is with having an entry.
>
>>> The pages for the books should also link to Alvin's
>>> page.  But wait, the entry at
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infinity%27s_Shore
>>> is just a stub...
>>>
>> Yes, it's a stub, and fortunately so. Another stupid decision
>> made in the English wikipedia was that spoilers are _not_
>> marked as such. Just take a look a the article about
>> "The Jesus Chainsaw Massacre" movie...
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Passion_of_the_Christ
>> ... or about the Titanic (the nazi rip-off by Cameron)...
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titanic_(1997_film)
>> ... and see how carelessly it gives the end of both movies without
>> respect for those who don't know the stories!
>
> Aren't they usually marked as plot synopses, or
> something?  But you're right, I bet a lot of people
> don't care about avoiding spoilers.
>
>>> O.K., so maybe the problem is that a case can eventually
>>> be made for Wikipedia to keep the page, but that
>>> the related pages aren't detailed enough yet.  I
>>> can see developing a Wiki devoted to the Uplift
>>> Universe in the meantime, and copying its content
>>> onto Wikipedia as time passes.
>>>
>> I think the best would be to do the opposite: create an Uplift wiki,
>> copy _from_ Wikipedia, and remove from Wikipedia.
>
> And all the Wikipedia articles would have would be a
> link to the extra material?  That seems fair, too.
>
> ---David
>
> ___
> http://mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
>From what you've said, he's asking you to prove the Alvin article is
important enough to be in the English Wikipedia.  Recently, the editors,
powers that be, or what have you have taken a much more active interest
in being a "serious" encyclopedia.  That means, for example, if I
created an article on Trent Shipley, it would be removed since I don't
merit mention in an encyclopedia. 

David Brin is an important science fiction author so he merits mention
in Wikipedia.
The Jijo trilogy merits mention.
Each book in the trilogy merits an article.
However, each book is based on an ensemble cast.
Alvin is an ensemble character in trilogy by an author of moderate
importance in a work of moderate importance.
Thus, Alvin is too trivial to be in Wikipedia.

If he were a Shakespeare character, no matter how minor, he would be in
Wikipedia, because Shakespeare is a very important author.
If he were a minor Naruto character he might rate an article because
Naruto is very popular.
But as it is, Alvin doesn't meet the criteria for important enough.


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Re: The wikipedia trolls may win again :-/

[Nick Arnett]

On Mon, Dec 28, 2009 at 1:35 PM, Nick Arnett  wrote:

And... anybody have a logo?


Nick
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Re: The wikipedia trolls may win again :-/

[Nick Arnett]

On Mon, Dec 28, 2009 at 11:58 AM,  wrote:

> I did not send the original to the list. Feel free to forward this to the
> list.
>
> I'm partial to MediaWiki.


I have installed MediaWiki here:

http://www.nickarnett.net/sfwiki/

We can create a domain name for it and point it there when we're ready to go
public with it.

I guess there's no real need for admins... it's a wiki, so anybody can sign
up and do any of the editorial functions.  If there are configuration
changes needed on the back end, I can do those, of course.

Nick
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Re: The wikipedia trolls may win again :-/

[sendai]

On 28/12/2009, at 11:23 AM, tship...@deru.com wrote:
> Let's be more ambitious.
I've gone the other way and reduced the scope to just Uplift.

It's currently hosted on Wikia, and I've only just started dumping some of the 
lists (along with the Alvin stub) from Wikipedia to it, so it's not an issue if 
Nick wishes to host it on the same server as the list.

http://uplift.wikia.com/wiki/Uplift_Wiki

> 
> A science fiction and fantasy literary wiki!  (And just when I needed a new 
> project too.)


> --Original Message--
> From: Alberto Vieira Ferreira Monteiro
> To: Brin-L
> ReplyTo: Brin-L
> Subject: The wikipedia trolls may win again :-/
> Sent: Dec 27, 2009 4:56 PM
> 
> Article Alvin Hph-wayuo was proposed for elimination. From what 
> I know about such things, it will be eliminated :-(
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alvin_Hph-wayuo
> 
> Maybe it's time to setup a Brin wiki
> 
> Alberto Monteiro

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Re: The wikipedia trolls may win again :-/

[David Hobby]

Alberto Monteiro wrote:

David Hobby wrote:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alvin_Hph-wayuo

Alberto--

Hi.  I think you can make a good case to keep it,
since it involves a major character in a series
of popular science fiction novels.


No, not my language, not my place to battle. I've tried
to keep the Portuguese language trolls away from deleting
relevant material - I can say I have been half-successful.


Alberto--

Wow, I guess it is my place to battle.  I've been going
back and forth with the "troll", at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Alvin_Hph-wayuo

Some of this is because I don't really understand his
criteria, or what the problem is with having an entry.


The pages for the books should also link to Alvin's
page.  But wait, the entry at
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infinity%27s_Shore
is just a stub...


Yes, it's a stub, and fortunately so. Another stupid decision
made in the English wikipedia was that spoilers are _not_
marked as such. Just take a look a the article about
"The Jesus Chainsaw Massacre" movie...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Passion_of_the_Christ
... or about the Titanic (the nazi rip-off by Cameron)...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titanic_(1997_film)
... and see how carelessly it gives the end of both movies without
respect for those who don't know the stories!


Aren't they usually marked as plot synopses, or
something?  But you're right, I bet a lot of people
don't care about avoiding spoilers.


O.K., so maybe the problem is that a case can eventually
be made for Wikipedia to keep the page, but that
the related pages aren't detailed enough yet.  I
can see developing a Wiki devoted to the Uplift
Universe in the meantime, and copying its content
onto Wikipedia as time passes.


I think the best would be to do the opposite: create an Uplift wiki,
copy _from_ Wikipedia, and remove from Wikipedia.


And all the Wikipedia articles would have would be a
link to the extra material?  That seems fair, too.

---David

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Re: The wikipedia trolls may win again :-/

[Alberto Monteiro]

David Hobby wrote:
>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alvin_Hph-wayuo
> 
> Alberto--
> 
> Hi.  I think you can make a good case to keep it,
> since it involves a major character in a series
> of popular science fiction novels.
>
No, not my language, not my place to battle. I've tried
to keep the Portuguese language trolls away from deleting
relevant material - I can say I have been half-successful.
 
> The pages for the books should also link to Alvin's
> page.  But wait, the entry at
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infinity%27s_Shore
> is just a stub...
> 
Yes, it's a stub, and fortunately so. Another stupid decision
made in the English wikipedia was that spoilers are _not_
marked as such. Just take a look a the article about
"The Jesus Chainsaw Massacre" movie...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Passion_of_the_Christ
... or about the Titanic (the nazi rip-off by Cameron)...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titanic_(1997_film)
... and see how carelessly it gives the end of both movies without
respect for those who don't know the stories!

> O.K., so maybe the problem is that a case can eventually
> be made for Wikipedia to keep the page, but that
> the related pages aren't detailed enough yet.  I
> can see developing a Wiki devoted to the Uplift
> Universe in the meantime, and copying its content
> onto Wikipedia as time passes.
> 
I think the best would be to do the opposite: create an Uplift wiki,
copy _from_ Wikipedia, and remove from Wikipedia.

Alberto Monteiro


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Re: The wikipedia trolls may win again :-/

[Nick Arnett]

On Sun, Dec 27, 2009 at 5:35 PM, Nick Arnett  wrote:

> I could host it along with the list.  I even set up a wiki there,
> which I'm not using.


Sent that from my phone while waiting to see Sherlock Holmes (quite good,
but I had trouble understanding some of the dialog for some reason).

If I set it up, who volunteers to have magical powers over it?  I'd like to
see a couple of people from the list (or vouched by list members) as
administrators.

Nick
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Re: [Fwd: Re: The wikipedia trolls may win again :-/]

[David Hobby]

Trent Shipley wrote:
...

A quick Google doesn't turn up any strong scifi literary wikis.  Given
the structure of a well designed wiki, David Brin's Uplift Universe
should be a viable category effectively acting as a sub-wiki.  In short,
you can have both.

...

From: Alberto Vieira Ferreira Monteiro

...
Article Alvin Hph-wayuo was proposed for elimination. From what 
I know about such things, it will be eliminated :-(


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alvin_Hph-wayuo

...

Alberto--

Hi.  I think you can make a good case to keep it,
since it involves a major character in a series
of popular science fiction novels.

If we want to keep
it, the thing to do would be to tie it in better
with other articles.  The Hoon article at
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoon_(fiction)
could say something like "The most detailed
references to the Hoon appear in the Jijo
series.  The major Hoon character in those
books is Alvin Hph-wayuo, who..."

(This should be brief, but lets you link to the
Alvin page.)

The pages for the books should also link to Alvin's
page.  But wait, the entry at
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infinity%27s_Shore
is just a stub...

O.K., so maybe the problem is that a case can eventually
be made for Wikipedia to keep the page, but that
the related pages aren't detailed enough yet.  I
can see developing a Wiki devoted to the Uplift
Universe in the meantime, and copying its content
onto Wikipedia as time passes.

---David


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Re: [Fwd: Re: The wikipedia trolls may win again :-/]

[Dave Land]

I found most of what I wanted to know about Anathem on the Anathem  
Wiki at wikia.com.


Maybe that's a good place for us?

Dave

On Dec 27, 2009, at 6:20 PM, Trent Shipley wrote:




 Original Message 
From:   - Sun Dec 27 19:10:30 2009
X-Mozilla-Status:   0001
X-Mozilla-Status2:  0080
X-Mozilla-Keys: 
Message-ID: <4b38138e.1030...@deru.com>
Date:   Sun, 27 Dec 2009 19:10:22 -0700
From:   Trent Shipley 
User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (X11/20090817)
MIME-Version:   1.0
To: sendai 
Subject:Re: The wikipedia trolls may win again :-/
References:
<1114620827-1261963340-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-6669531...@bda710.bisx.prod.on.blackberry 
>

<43b7d2e7-9be1-4e9e-a5f5-1e1152fe2...@iicx.net>
In-Reply-To:<43b7d2e7-9be1-4e9e-a5f5-1e1152fe2...@iicx.net>
X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.7
Content-Type:   text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding:  7bit



A quick Google doesn't turn up any strong scifi literary wikis.  Given
the structure of a well designed wiki, David Brin's Uplift Universe
should be a viable category effectively acting as a sub-wiki.  In  
short,

you can have both.



sendai wrote:


On 28/12/2009, at 11:23 AM, tship...@deru.com wrote:


Let's be more ambitious.


I've gone the other way and reduced the scope to just Uplift.

It's currently hosted on Wikia, and I've only just started dumping  
some of the lists (along with the Alvin stub) from Wikipedia to it,  
so it's not an issue if Nick wishes to host it on the same server  
as the list.


http://uplift.wikia.com/wiki/Uplift_Wiki


A science fiction and fantasy literary wiki!  (And just when I  
needed a new project too.)







--Original Message--
From: Alberto Vieira Ferreira Monteiro
To: Brin-L
ReplyTo: Brin-L
Subject: The wikipedia trolls may win again :-/
Sent: Dec 27, 2009 4:56 PM

Article Alvin Hph-wayuo was proposed for elimination. From what
I know about such things, it will be eliminated :-(

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alvin_Hph-wayuo

Maybe it's time to setup a Brin wiki

Alberto Monteiro











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[Fwd: Re: The wikipedia trolls may win again :-/]

[Trent Shipley]

 Original Message 
From:   - Sun Dec 27 19:10:30 2009
X-Mozilla-Status:   0001
X-Mozilla-Status2:  0080
X-Mozilla-Keys: 
Message-ID: <4b38138e.1030...@deru.com>
Date:   Sun, 27 Dec 2009 19:10:22 -0700
From:   Trent Shipley 
User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (X11/20090817)
MIME-Version:   1.0
To: sendai 
Subject:Re: The wikipedia trolls may win again :-/
References:
<1114620827-1261963340-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-6669531...@bda710.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
<43b7d2e7-9be1-4e9e-a5f5-1e1152fe2...@iicx.net>
In-Reply-To:<43b7d2e7-9be1-4e9e-a5f5-1e1152fe2...@iicx.net>
X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.7
Content-Type:   text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding:  7bit



A quick Google doesn't turn up any strong scifi literary wikis.  Given
the structure of a well designed wiki, David Brin's Uplift Universe
should be a viable category effectively acting as a sub-wiki.  In short,
you can have both.



sendai wrote:

> On 28/12/2009, at 11:23 AM, tship...@deru.com wrote:
>   
>> Let's be more ambitious.
>> 
> I've gone the other way and reduced the scope to just Uplift.
>
> It's currently hosted on Wikia, and I've only just started dumping some of 
> the lists (along with the Alvin stub) from Wikipedia to it, so it's not an 
> issue if Nick wishes to host it on the same server as the list.
>
> http://uplift.wikia.com/wiki/Uplift_Wiki
>
>   
>> A science fiction and fantasy literary wiki!  (And just when I needed a new 
>> project too.)
>> 
>
>
>   
>> --Original Message--
>> From: Alberto Vieira Ferreira Monteiro
>> To: Brin-L
>> ReplyTo: Brin-L
>> Subject: The wikipedia trolls may win again :-/
>> Sent: Dec 27, 2009 4:56 PM
>>
>> Article Alvin Hph-wayuo was proposed for elimination. From what 
>> I know about such things, it will be eliminated :-(
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alvin_Hph-wayuo
>>
>> Maybe it's time to setup a Brin wiki
>>
>> Alberto Monteiro
>> 
>
>
>
>   




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Re: The wikipedia trolls may win again :-/

[Nick Arnett]

I could host it along with the list.  I even set up a wiki there,
which I'm not using.

Nick

On 12/27/09, tship...@deru.com  wrote:
> Let's be more ambitious.
>
> A science fiction and fantasy literary wiki!  (And just when I needed a new
> project too.)
> --Original Message--
> From: Alberto Vieira Ferreira Monteiro
> To: Brin-L
> ReplyTo: Brin-L
> Subject: The wikipedia trolls may win again :-/
> Sent: Dec 27, 2009 4:56 PM
>
> Article Alvin Hph-wayuo was proposed for elimination. From what
> I know about such things, it will be eliminated :-(
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alvin_Hph-wayuo
>
> Maybe it's time to setup a Brin wiki
>
> Alberto Monteiro
>
> ___
> http://mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
>
>
>
>
>
> Sent from my BlackBerry Smartphone provided by Alltel
>
> ___
> http://mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
>
>

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Re: The wikipedia trolls may win again :-/

[tshipley]

Let's be more ambitious. 

A science fiction and fantasy literary wiki!  (And just when I needed a new 
project too.)
--Original Message--
From: Alberto Vieira Ferreira Monteiro
To: Brin-L
ReplyTo: Brin-L
Subject: The wikipedia trolls may win again :-/
Sent: Dec 27, 2009 4:56 PM

Article Alvin Hph-wayuo was proposed for elimination. From what 
I know about such things, it will be eliminated :-(

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alvin_Hph-wayuo

Maybe it's time to setup a Brin wiki

Alberto Monteiro

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Sent from my BlackBerry Smartphone provided by Alltel

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The wikipedia trolls may win again :-/

[Alberto Vieira Ferreira Monteiro]

Article Alvin Hph-wayuo was proposed for elimination. From what 
I know about such things, it will be eliminated :-(

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alvin_Hph-wayuo

Maybe it's time to setup a Brin wiki

Alberto Monteiro

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Re: .......some trolls will do anything for a laugh!

[Warren Ockrassa]

On Oct 8, 2005, at 10:43 AM, Dave Land wrote:


On Oct 7, 2005, at 11:57 PM, Warren Ockrassa wrote:

That said I thoroughly approve of outing. Anyone who behaves in a 
bigoted way deserves to be exposed to the very ridicule and scorn he 
heaps upon others. An ex of mine never agreed with me on that, even 
though he was pretty active in the community. I'm still not sure what 
the objection is.


If I understand you correctly, you approve of the outing of 
*hypocritical bigots*, not necessarily gay penguins.


As long as the birds in question are not such bigots, sure. Otherwise, 
I say flip the bird as well.


;)


--
Warren Ockrassa, Publisher/Editor, nightwares Books

Current work in progress "The Seven-Year Mirror"



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Re: .......some trolls will do anything for a laugh!

[Julia Thompson]

Warren Ockrassa wrote:

On Oct 5, 2005, at 5:20 AM, Leonard Matusik wrote:


I'm fully in Warrens camp (from last Gay Penguins post) about this.



Hmm, it's a small step from camping to … well, never mind. ;)


The last 2 times I went camping it was with people who are interested in 
the sorts of things that go on at Burning Man.  So, yeah.  ;)


In a pre-genetic testing era is was maybe necessary. Heck, many men 
need threats of violence just to pickup their dirty laundry from the 
floor!



And you think that's changed? ;)


Enough "gee, honey, I'm too tired for sex after having to do A, B, C, 
pick up your dirty laundry, E, F and G" might drive the point home.  ;)


There's some we all need, MORE LAWS. (i leered, my voice dripping with 
sarcasm) Mark my words, the InterSpecies sex people are next. 
Specialized pet shows coming soon to your neighborhood.



Already happens. You can pay to see women have sex with donkeys. And 
there is a small interspecies sex movement, FWIW. Oddly enough, Peta has 
not yet weighed in on the issue, but I suppose it's just a matter of 
time before we see the MEAT IS MURDER placards replaced with SEX IS RAPE 
signs.


Having read _If I'd Killed Him When I Met Him..._, I think that SEX IS 
SUICIDE signs might be appropriate for some.


Julia
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Re: .......some trolls will do anything for a laugh!

[Dave Land]

On Oct 7, 2005, at 11:57 PM, Warren Ockrassa wrote:

That said I thoroughly approve of outing. Anyone who behaves in a  
bigoted way deserves to be exposed to the very ridicule and scorn  
he heaps upon others. An ex of mine never agreed with me on that,  
even though he was pretty active in the community. I'm still not  
sure what the objection is.


If I understand you correctly, you approve of the outing of  
*hypocritical bigots*, not necessarily gay penguins.


Dave
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Re: .......some trolls will do anything for a laugh!

[Warren Ockrassa]

On Oct 5, 2005, at 5:20 AM, Leonard Matusik wrote:


I'm fully in Warrens camp (from last Gay Penguins post) about this.


Hmm, it's a small step from camping to … well, never mind. ;)


GayCommunity, GayMarriage and GayPride are all consumate BullSh*t.


They're — to my mind — politically necessary. That is, to no small 
extent I think the gay community might be defined more by its 
opposition than itself.


That said I thoroughly approve of outing. Anyone who behaves in a 
bigoted way deserves to be exposed to the very ridicule and scorn he 
heaps upon others. An ex of mine never agreed with me on that, even 
though he was pretty active in the community. I'm still not sure what 
the objection is.


It's bad enough that we've had to institute so-called marriage to 
insure the rights of women/children.


Actually TTBOMK marriage originally came about more as a way for men to 
assert their rights of property over women and children. Think of the 
old Roman Pater Familias, for instance. He was not just the head of the 
household; he could punish the people he owned (wife and kids) in any 
way he chose, even with death, if they got out of line.


We've tried to modernize marriage, but to no small extent I think it's 
still regarded — by many men and not a few women — as ownership papers. 
Some of those who resist the idea of same-gender marriage are trying, 
in part, to protect some of that, I think. After all if both partners 
are of equal footing in gender, the question who owns whom becomes much 
more difficult to resolve.


In a pre-genetic testing era is was maybe necessary. Heck, many men 
need threats of violence just to pickup their dirty laundry from the 
floor!


And you think that's changed? ;)

But now we have people calling for laws to basically protect their 
sexual hobbies from the criticism of other people!


Not criticism; that's fine. It's the attempts to legislate away the 
right to carry on as one sees fit that are really under fire here. Do 
remember that sodomy is still a crime in many parts of the US. If 
there's a defensiveness to the gay community, perhaps this helps 
explain it — as well as the reason for the community in the first 
place. The best way to shut gays up is to leave them alone.


There's some we all need, MORE LAWS. (i leered, my voice dripping with 
sarcasm) Mark my words, the InterSpecies sex people are next. 
Specialized pet shows coming soon to your neighborhood.


Already happens. You can pay to see women have sex with donkeys. And 
there is a small interspecies sex movement, FWIW. Oddly enough, Peta 
has not yet weighed in on the issue, but I suppose it's just a matter 
of time before we see the MEAT IS MURDER placards replaced with SEX IS 
RAPE signs.


I agree with my Catholic parish priest on the matter. He says the 
state has no business giving out marriage licenses, period.


And how many altar boys has he run through, so to speak? I don't think 
a sworn-celibate priest is in any position (!) to criticize marriage 
laws, for better or worse. (!!)


Marriage, like GayCulture,  is a personal opinion. Everyone is 
entitled to both their personal opinions and a degree of freedom from 
those they don't like.


Can't argue with that. (!!!)


--
Warren Ockrassa, Publisher/Editor, nightwares Books

Current work in progress "The Seven-Year Mirror"



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.......some trolls will do anything for a laugh!

[Leonard Matusik]

Check what these Trolls do for fun.
-
Gay Community Divided Over 'Outing' of Public Figures
Concerns About Privacy, 'Hypocrisy' at Center of Debate
By DAVID CRARY, AP

   
NEW YORK (Oct. 4) - Though decried by many gay-rights leaders, "outing" - the 
practice of exposing secretly gay public figures - is expanding into new 
terrain as Internet bloggers target congressional staffers, political 
strategists, even black clergy whose sermons and speeches contain anti-gay 
rhetoric.
Few issues are as divisive within the gay community. Numerous gay 
organizations, such as the Human Rights Campaign and the Log Cabin Republicans, 
staunchly oppose outing, yet many other activists support it when the targets 
are public figures - or their aides - who work against gay rights or condemn 
homosexuality.
"It's not the gay thing that's the problem - it's the hypocrisy," said Michael 
Rogers, creator of a Web log that has been at the fore of several recent outing 
campaigns. "I'm going to be calling out the politicians who vote against us and 
work against the interests of the very community they come from."
---
 
 
I'm fully in Warrens camp (from last Gay Penguins post) about this. 
GayCommunity, GayMarriage and GayPride are all consumate BullSh*t. It's bad 
enough that we've had to institute so-called marriage to insure the rights of 
women/children. In a pre-genetic testing era is was maybe necessary. Heck, many 
men need threats of violence just to pickup their dirty laundry from the floor! 
But now we have people calling for laws to basically protect their sexual 
hobbies from the criticism of other people!  There's some we all need, MORE 
LAWS. (i leered, my voice dripping with sarcasm) Mark my words, the 
InterSpecies sex people are next. Specialized pet shows coming soon to your 
neighborhood.
I agree with my Catholic parish priest on the matter. He says the state has no 
business giving out marriage licenses, period. 
Marriage, like GayCulture,  is a personal opinion. Everyone is entitled to both 
their personal opinions and a degree of freedom from those they don't like. 
 
LJM [EMAIL PROTECTED]


-
Yahoo! for Good
 Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort. 
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Re: trolling for trolls

[Maru Dubshinki]

On 5/19/05, Ronn!Blankenship <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> At 05:52 PM Wednesday 5/18/2005, Nick Arnett wrote:
> >On Wed, 18 May 2005 18:45:15 -0400, Erik Reuter wrote
> > > * Julia Thompson ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
> > >
> > > > I've been asked to ask you to tone it down on personal attacks
> > > > on-list.
> > > >
> > > > If you make many more personal attacks on-list, the probability of
> > > > your being placed on moderation will be non-zero.
> >
> >Posting a private e-mail to the public list, which I'm fairly certain was
> >done
> >without Julia's permission, is lousy netiquette.
> 
> 
> On a couple of other lists I am a member of, doing that or its converse
> (forwarding an on-list message off-list) is grounds for immediate
> dismissal, regardless of who does it or how long they have been there or
> how well liked they are.  That policy got started a year or two ago when
> someone (who was lurking under an assumed name, it seems) forwarded
> out-of-context excerpts from one list member's posts to that list members
> RL employer, which led to that person being forced into early retirement
> from the teaching job he had held for several decades.
> 
> 
> -- Ronn!  :)

And some people wondered why I use a pseudonym- well, there you go.


~Maru
You didn't think this was my real name, did you?
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Re: trolling for trolls

[Maru Dubshinki]

On 5/18/05, Erik Reuter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> * Julia Thompson ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
> 
> > I've been asked to ask you to tone it down on personal attacks
> > on-list.
> >
> > If you make many more personal attacks on-list, the probability of
> > your being placed on moderation will be non-zero.

But... probabilities that are negative, or greater than 1- simply make
no sense! Unpossible!


~Maru
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Re: trolling for trolls

[Ronn!Blankenship]

At 10:23 AM Thursday 5/19/2005, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
If you are waiting for me to chime in...
my momma taught me not to go near
wild things that are frothing at the mouth
Yo momma warn't no dummy!
-- Ronn!  :)
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RE: trolling for trolls

[Ronn!Blankenship]

At 03:26 AM Thursday 5/19/2005, Kevin Street wrote:
Is this some kind of subtle parody? It seems wildly out of place for Brin-L.

Because of its subtlety, of course.  Not because it is parody.
-- Ronn!  :)
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Re: trolling for trolls

[Kanandarqu]

>   Incidentally, this thread is still missing a few 
>   countries from the Axis of Eggheads.

If you are waiting for me to chime in...
my momma taught me not to go near
wild things that are frothing at the mouth
Dee
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Re: trolling for trolls

[Warren Ockrassa]

On May 19, 2005, at 1:26 AM, Kevin Street wrote:
Is this some kind of subtle parody?
It might very well be.
--
Warren Ockrassa, Publisher/Editor, nightwares Books
http://books.nightwares.com/
Current work in progress "The Seven-Year Mirror"
http://www.nightwares.com/books/ockrassa/Flat_Out.pdf
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RE: trolling for trolls

[Kevin Street]

> It seems we have more nattering ninnies! But a new breed, cowardly
> whiners who only can whine when their victim can't read them! We have
> known for a while that Brin-L is full of passive-agressives who whine
> constantly while running sneaky attacks on people behind their backs. In
> case anyone missed it, David Brin himself pointed it out a while back.
>
> Incidentally, this thread is still missing a few countries from the Axis
> of Eggheads.
>
> My threaded email client is ready, and my left middle finger needs
> something to do!

Is this some kind of subtle parody? It seems wildly out of place for Brin-L.

Kevin Street

-- 
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.322 / Virus Database: 266.11.12 - Release Date: 5/17/2005
 

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Re: trolling for trolls

[Julia Thompson]

William T Goodall wrote:
On 19 May 2005, at 1:32 am, Dave Land wrote:
On May 18, 2005, at 5:15 PM, Ronn!Blankenship wrote:

At 05:52 PM Wednesday 5/18/2005, Nick Arnett wrote:
On Wed, 18 May 2005 18:45:15 -0400, Erik Reuter wrote
> * Julia Thompson ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
>
> > I've been asked to ask you to tone it down on personal attacks
> > on-list.
> >
> > If you make many more personal attacks on-list, the  probability of
> > your being placed on moderation will be non-zero.
Posting a private e-mail to the public list, which I'm fairly  certain
was done without Julia's permission, is lousy netiquette.
On a couple of other lists I am a member of, doing that or its  converse
(forwarding an on-list message off-list) is grounds for immediate
dismissal, regardless of who does it or how long they have been  
there or
how well liked they are.

I had just discussed this kind of abuse in an off-list exchange with a
manager of a list that I am on, in which I echoed Ronn!'s experience:
there are plenty of lists on which the forwarding of off-list messages
without permission is grounds for banning, if not heavy moderation.
BUT: before we rush to judgment, I don't think we've heard from
either Julia or Erik as to whether she'd given him permission.  Also, the
list's Etiquette Guidelines 
do not specifically address this issue, and not everyone has had  Ronn!'s
experience with other lists that observe it. It may simply be a  
matter of
learning, like not top-posting.

Since it looks like the Julia's message was in her capacity as a list- 
admin that muddies the waters a bit more it seems to me. Especially  
since one of the people involved is Nick who is the list owner.

I agree with William.
IMO, until there is some policy that specifically says otherwise, 
anything sent off-list by an admin in an administrative capacity is fair 
game for the list as a whole.

I prefer to send such things off-list, as there is potential for public 
embarassment of the intended recipient if it's done publicly, but if the 
recipient wants to make it public, I personally don't have a problem 
with that.

Non-administrative private e-mails, however, are a different matter, and 
I'd take a dim view of, say, Ronn! posting to the list something Dan M. 
had sent him off-list without first getting Dan's permission.

Julia
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Re: trolling for trolls

[Ronn!Blankenship]

At 07:32 PM Wednesday 5/18/2005, Dave Land wrote:
On May 18, 2005, at 5:15 PM, Ronn!Blankenship wrote:
At 05:52 PM Wednesday 5/18/2005, Nick Arnett wrote:
On Wed, 18 May 2005 18:45:15 -0400, Erik Reuter wrote
> * Julia Thompson ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
>
> > I've been asked to ask you to tone it down on personal attacks
> > on-list.
> >
> > If you make many more personal attacks on-list, the probability of
> > your being placed on moderation will be non-zero.
Posting a private e-mail to the public list, which I'm fairly certain
was done without Julia's permission, is lousy netiquette.
On a couple of other lists I am a member of, doing that or its converse
(forwarding an on-list message off-list) is grounds for immediate
dismissal, regardless of who does it or how long they have been there or
how well liked they are.
I had just discussed this kind of abuse in an off-list exchange with a
manager of a list that I am on, in which I echoed Ronn!'s experience:
there are plenty of lists on which the forwarding of off-list messages
without permission is grounds for banning, if not heavy moderation.
BUT: before we rush to judgment, I don't think we've heard from
either Julia or Erik as to whether she'd given him permission. Also, the
list's Etiquette Guidelines 
do not specifically address this issue, and not everyone has had Ronn!'s
experience with other lists that observe it. It may simply be a matter of
learning, like not top-posting.

Just to be clear:  I only mentioned the rules of that other list to show 
that some places it is justifiably considered more than just "bad 
netiquette" to do that  I am not advocating any change in the list guidelines.


Dave
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-- Ronn!  :)
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Re: trolling for trolls

[William T Goodall]

On 19 May 2005, at 1:32 am, Dave Land wrote:
On May 18, 2005, at 5:15 PM, Ronn!Blankenship wrote:

At 05:52 PM Wednesday 5/18/2005, Nick Arnett wrote:
On Wed, 18 May 2005 18:45:15 -0400, Erik Reuter wrote
> * Julia Thompson ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
>
> > I've been asked to ask you to tone it down on personal attacks
> > on-list.
> >
> > If you make many more personal attacks on-list, the  
probability of
> > your being placed on moderation will be non-zero.

Posting a private e-mail to the public list, which I'm fairly  
certain
was done without Julia's permission, is lousy netiquette.

On a couple of other lists I am a member of, doing that or its  
converse
(forwarding an on-list message off-list) is grounds for immediate
dismissal, regardless of who does it or how long they have been  
there or
how well liked they are.

I had just discussed this kind of abuse in an off-list exchange with a
manager of a list that I am on, in which I echoed Ronn!'s experience:
there are plenty of lists on which the forwarding of off-list messages
without permission is grounds for banning, if not heavy moderation.
BUT: before we rush to judgment, I don't think we've heard from
either Julia or Erik as to whether she'd given him permission.  
Also, the
list's Etiquette Guidelines 
do not specifically address this issue, and not everyone has had  
Ronn!'s
experience with other lists that observe it. It may simply be a  
matter of
learning, like not top-posting.

Since it looks like the Julia's message was in her capacity as a list- 
admin that muddies the waters a bit more it seems to me. Especially  
since one of the people involved is Nick who is the list owner.

--
William T Goodall
Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web  : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk
Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/
"It is our belief, however, that serious professional users will run  
out of things they can do with UNIX." - Ken Olsen, President of DEC,  
1984.

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Re: trolling for trolls

[Dave Land]

On May 18, 2005, at 5:15 PM, Ronn!Blankenship wrote:
At 05:52 PM Wednesday 5/18/2005, Nick Arnett wrote:
On Wed, 18 May 2005 18:45:15 -0400, Erik Reuter wrote
> * Julia Thompson ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
>
> > I've been asked to ask you to tone it down on personal attacks
> > on-list.
> >
> > If you make many more personal attacks on-list, the probability of
> > your being placed on moderation will be non-zero.
Posting a private e-mail to the public list, which I'm fairly certain
was done without Julia's permission, is lousy netiquette.
On a couple of other lists I am a member of, doing that or its converse
(forwarding an on-list message off-list) is grounds for immediate
dismissal, regardless of who does it or how long they have been there 
or
how well liked they are.
I had just discussed this kind of abuse in an off-list exchange with a
manager of a list that I am on, in which I echoed Ronn!'s experience:
there are plenty of lists on which the forwarding of off-list messages
without permission is grounds for banning, if not heavy moderation.
BUT: before we rush to judgment, I don't think we've heard from
either Julia or Erik as to whether she'd given him permission. Also, the
list's Etiquette Guidelines 

do not specifically address this issue, and not everyone has had Ronn!'s
experience with other lists that observe it. It may simply be a matter 
of
learning, like not top-posting.

Dave
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Re: trolling for trolls

[Ronn!Blankenship]

At 05:52 PM Wednesday 5/18/2005, Nick Arnett wrote:
On Wed, 18 May 2005 18:45:15 -0400, Erik Reuter wrote
> * Julia Thompson ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
>
> > I've been asked to ask you to tone it down on personal attacks
> > on-list.
> >
> > If you make many more personal attacks on-list, the probability of
> > your being placed on moderation will be non-zero.
Posting a private e-mail to the public list, which I'm fairly certain was 
done
without Julia's permission, is lousy netiquette.

On a couple of other lists I am a member of, doing that or its converse 
(forwarding an on-list message off-list) is grounds for immediate 
dismissal, regardless of who does it or how long they have been there or 
how well liked they are.  That policy got started a year or two ago when 
someone (who was lurking under an assumed name, it seems) forwarded 
out-of-context excerpts from one list member's posts to that list members 
RL employer, which led to that person being forced into early retirement 
from the teaching job he had held for several decades.

-- Ronn!  :)
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Re: trolling for trolls

[Nick Arnett]

On Wed, 18 May 2005 18:45:15 -0400, Erik Reuter wrote
> * Julia Thompson ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
> 
> > I've been asked to ask you to tone it down on personal attacks
> > on-list.
> >
> > If you make many more personal attacks on-list, the probability of
> > your being placed on moderation will be non-zero.

Posting a private e-mail to the public list, which I'm fairly certain was done 
without Julia's permission, is lousy netiquette.

Here's another official warning, in public, since you've chosen to make this 
public -- my perception is that you've made a number of personal attacks 
lately, which are contrary to our list policies.

Nick
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trolling for trolls

[Erik Reuter]

* Julia Thompson ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:

> I've been asked to ask you to tone it down on personal attacks
> on-list.
>
> If you make many more personal attacks on-list, the probability of
> your being placed on moderation will be non-zero.

It seems we have more nattering ninnies! But a new breed, cowardly
whiners who only can whine when their victim can't read them! We have
known for a while that Brin-L is full of passive-agressives who whine
constantly while running sneaky attacks on people behind their backs. In
case anyone missed it, David Brin himself pointed it out a while back.

Incidentally, this thread is still missing a few countries from the Axis
of Eggheads.

My threaded email client is ready, and my left middle finger needs
something to do!

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Trolls etc, was: Re: The Lost Hearts and Minds

[David Hobby]

Julia Thompson wrote:
...
> You know, Dan, I don't buy your sock-puppet theory.
> 
> Please demonstrate conclusively to me that Mr. Lee is, in fact, a sock
> puppet.
> 
> Julia

How's this?  A direct quotation from an old post!  See!?
It proves...   
O.K., it doesn't prove anything.  
I don't think this kind of thing is amenable to proof at all, 
one way or the other.  The post is below, for what it's worth.

---David

Who has quit conversing with trolls, sock-puppets and so on. 



>  Original Message 
> Subject: RE: [ADMIN] Pseudonymous postings from the Netherlands
> Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2004 01:30:51 -0700
> From: "Mike Lee" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "'Killer Bs Discussion'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 
> Ok, we confess. John Doe and Mike Lee are the same person. Well, we're
> two
> personalities of the same person. If you ban us from this list, we will
> sue
> you under ADA. 
> 
> If you think it's hard listening to us fight, you ought to have to be in
> the
> bathroom in the morning with us. You're getting off easy. 
> 
> Every morning, I try to make a reasonable argument, but then it always
> ends
> up with me trying to hang that sonofabitch from the shower rod. Just
> when I
> think I've strung him up this time, I pass out and wake up with my head
> half
> in the toilet. 
> 
> Still, somehow, I always make it to work on time.
> 
> 
> 
>
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