Re: Mambo on CakePHP brainstorm

2008-11-26 Thread Elpie

I don't see that as an option. One thing that has to be done well,
right from the outset, is the planning. A lot of work is currently
being done in that area. I agree with the comments made by James K. on
that - if Mambo is not planned well we will limit ourselves too much.

The current development of Mambo is hitting far too many limits in
what can be done. The architecture is old and cannot adapt to the
needs of a modern (or future) CMS market (its still a market even
though its a free product ;))  What we build with cakePHP has to be
extensible and will be providing the basis for development for years
to come.

So, taking the ideas/architecture of an existing project would mean we
would be having to factor in the ability of that code to adapt to
Mambo's needs. It would be far better to start from scratch.

Lynne

On Nov 26, 8:26 am, Jay Reeder [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
 Would it be feasible to merge one of the existing Cake CMS projects into
 this new effort to provide a head-start?


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Re: Mambo on CakePHP brainstorm

2008-11-26 Thread Elpie

We have already felt the pain Nate ;)
Mambo has a core + core extensions. With the release of Mambo 4.6 a
couple of years ago we began releasing two versions, which were called
Mambo (or, in the earlier days, Mambo Complete) and Mambo Lite.
Mambo Lite is the core with no core extensions. All core extensions
were refactored to become optional installs.

This was done with two outcomes in mind - firstly, that when Mambo
went PHP5 only, the extensions would be available as a one-click
install from the backend, and secondly, so that anyone could take up
the core extensions and use these as a basis for further development
of the functionality.

So, with the next significant release of Mambo being PHP5.2+ only, and
MySQL4.1+, the only distro will be effectively Mambo Lite.

This makes it pretty easy for us all to get our heads around making
Mambo even more modular as we bake it ;)

Lynne

On Nov 26, 5:20 am, Nate [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Based on your stated goals, the two suggestions I would add are:

 (1) Develop as many of Mambo's features as possible as extensions.
 This will not only make the CMS itself as flexible as possible (and
 the CMS's extension API as robust as possible), but it will also help
 you 'feel the pain' of extension developers as they write new
 extensions or migrate old ones.


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Re: Mambo on CakePHP brainstorm

2008-11-25 Thread keymaster

Very good advice.

Ignore at mambo's peril.

On Nov 25, 1:27 am, James K [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Simple - if you're starting from scratch, seriously start over and
 rethink a lot of the fundamentals.

 Mambo's idea of what content is and how it should be organized within
 a CMS is very outdated and short sighted.

 Joomla's been making a valiant effort to modernize the Mambo codebase,
 but it still suffers from several of the same fatal flaws in terms of
 execution. Why in the world can I only organize content 2 levels deep?
 Why can I only add content to a single category?

 In addition, it would be wise to look into broadening Mambo's idea of
 content. Drupal does a pretty good job of making it easy to create
 several different content types (ie blog posts, news items, products,
 etc) and handle them in different ways without having to make very
 literal sections

 Why are the security permissions hard coded? I know Joomla's in the
 middle of a really messy migration to a proper ACL implementation, but
 they're not anywhere near close yet. Security roles should be
 flexible, customizable, granular, and hierarchical.

 Mambo's 8 years old now and while it may be tempting to give Mambo's
 users something very familiar in execution, you'd just be doing the
 project a disservice by ignoring the vast innovations that have
 occurred in the CMS space since Mambo was originally architected.

 There are lots of good CMSes on the market - both commercial and open
 source that are doing a lot of really interesting things these days.
 Do your research, take all the lessons learned from Mambo development
 over the years and get crackin! Before writing a line of code, you
 should put a lot of thought and time into the database design. Many
 fundamental design choices will be made at that point which will be
 hard to go back on once you've written a significant amount of code.

 The more planning you do, the better the end product will be.

 Good luck!

 - James

 On Nov 19, 9:47 am, andphe [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  Hi all, I'm on Mambo Dev team, and we realize that while we are
  planning our major rewrite of Mambo based on CakePHP, we are not
  hearing what the CakePHP community have to say.

  Specifically it would be good to have a brainstorm here, about what
  the CakePHP users/developers expect on a cake based CMS.

  So, go ahead, lets have fun

  Andrés
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Re: Mambo on CakePHP brainstorm

2008-11-25 Thread andphe

Hi James,

 On Nov 25, 1:27 am, James K [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  Simple - if you're starting from scratch, seriously start over and
  rethink a lot of the fundamentals.

  Mambo's idea of what content is and how it should be organized within
  a CMS is very outdated and short sighted.

  Joomla's been making a valiant effort to modernize the Mambo codebase,
  but it still suffers from several of the same fatal flaws in terms of
  execution. Why in the world can I only organize content 2 levels deep?
  Why can I only add content to a single category?

  In addition, it would be wise to look into broadening Mambo's idea of
  content. Drupal does a pretty good job of making it easy to create
  several different content types (ie blog posts, news items, products,
  etc) and handle them in different ways without having to make very
  literal sections

  Why are the security permissions hard coded? I know Joomla's in the
  middle of a really messy migration to a proper ACL implementation, but
  they're not anywhere near close yet. Security roles should be
  flexible, customizable, granular, and hierarchical.

  Mambo's 8 years old now and while it may be tempting to give Mambo's
  users something very familiar in execution, you'd just be doing the
  project a disservice by ignoring the vast innovations that have
  occurred in the CMS space since Mambo was originally architected.

  There are lots of good CMSes on the market - both commercial and open
  source that are doing a lot of really interesting things these days.
  Do your research, take all the lessons learned from Mambo development
  over the years and get crackin! Before writing a line of code, you
  should put a lot of thought and time into the database design. Many
  fundamental design choices will be made at that point which will be
  hard to go back on once you've written a significant amount of code.

  The more planning you do, the better the end product will be.

  Good luck!

Thanks for all your comments, it sure will be part of our
discussions :)

we also are interested in to know about the expectations about the CMS
framework, things like:

Been a cake developer, would you  use/integrate your projects in a
cms ?
What must accomplish that cms to be considered in your cake projects ?

Mambo is not just a CMS but a framework too, it should help the
developers to create his own pieces of software and reuse the ones
that the cms currently have.

Thanks

Andrés

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Re: Mambo on CakePHP brainstorm

2008-11-25 Thread Nate

Based on your stated goals, the two suggestions I would add are:

(1) Develop as many of Mambo's features as possible as extensions.
This will not only make the CMS itself as flexible as possible (and
the CMS's extension API as robust as possible), but it will also help
you 'feel the pain' of extension developers as they write new
extensions or migrate old ones.

(2) Develop as much of the functionality of the Mambo core itself as
CakePHP plugins.  This will not only make the core easily extensible,
but it will enable CakePHP developers to more easily integrate Mambo
code within their own applications, and lower the barrier to entry on
contributing back to the Mambo core.


On Nov 25, 8:16 am, andphe [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Hi James,



  On Nov 25, 1:27 am, James K [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

   Simple - if you're starting from scratch, seriously start over and
   rethink a lot of the fundamentals.

   Mambo's idea of what content is and how it should be organized within
   a CMS is very outdated and short sighted.

   Joomla's been making a valiant effort to modernize the Mambo codebase,
   but it still suffers from several of the same fatal flaws in terms of
   execution. Why in the world can I only organize content 2 levels deep?
   Why can I only add content to a single category?

   In addition, it would be wise to look into broadening Mambo's idea of
   content. Drupal does a pretty good job of making it easy to create
   several different content types (ie blog posts, news items, products,
   etc) and handle them in different ways without having to make very
   literal sections

   Why are the security permissions hard coded? I know Joomla's in the
   middle of a really messy migration to a proper ACL implementation, but
   they're not anywhere near close yet. Security roles should be
   flexible, customizable, granular, and hierarchical.

   Mambo's 8 years old now and while it may be tempting to give Mambo's
   users something very familiar in execution, you'd just be doing the
   project a disservice by ignoring the vast innovations that have
   occurred in the CMS space since Mambo was originally architected.

   There are lots of good CMSes on the market - both commercial and open
   source that are doing a lot of really interesting things these days.
   Do your research, take all the lessons learned from Mambo development
   over the years and get crackin! Before writing a line of code, you
   should put a lot of thought and time into the database design. Many
   fundamental design choices will be made at that point which will be
   hard to go back on once you've written a significant amount of code.

   The more planning you do, the better the end product will be.

   Good luck!

 Thanks for all your comments, it sure will be part of our
 discussions :)

 we also are interested in to know about the expectations about the CMS
 framework, things like:

 Been a cake developer, would you  use/integrate your projects in a
 cms ?
 What must accomplish that cms to be considered in your cake projects ?

 Mambo is not just a CMS but a framework too, it should help the
 developers to create his own pieces of software and reuse the ones
 that the cms currently have.

 Thanks

 Andrés
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Re: Mambo on CakePHP brainstorm

2008-11-25 Thread andphe

Hi Nate,

On Nov 25, 11:20 am, Nate [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Based on your stated goals, the two suggestions I would add are:

 (1) Develop as many of Mambo's features as possible as extensions.
 This will not only make the CMS itself as flexible as possible (and
 the CMS's extension API as robust as possible), but it will also help
 you 'feel the pain' of extension developers as they write new
 extensions or migrate old ones.

It's a good idea, and it much as we want to go, build what Mambo 4.7
can do using cakePHP

 (2) Develop as much of the functionality of the Mambo core itself as
 CakePHP plugins.  This will not only make the core easily extensible,
 but it will enable CakePHP developers to more easily integrate Mambo
 code within their own applications, and lower the barrier to entry on
 contributing back to the Mambo core.


thanks for share your thoughts, very appreciated.

Andrés
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Re: Mambo on CakePHP brainstorm

2008-11-25 Thread MattC

I second what Nate said, especially #2.

It would be awesome if Mambo was both a full standalone CMS, but also
a plugin that could be dropped into any Cake app to provide CMS
functionality.

-Matt
http://www.pseudocoder.com

On Nov 25, 1:55 pm, andphe [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Hi Nate,

 On Nov 25, 11:20 am, Nate [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Based on your stated 
 goals, the two suggestions I would add are:

  (1) Develop as many of Mambo's features as possible as extensions.
  This will not only make the CMS itself as flexible as possible (and
  the CMS's extension API as robust as possible), but it will also help
  you 'feel the pain' of extension developers as they write new
  extensions or migrate old ones.

 It's a good idea, and it much as we want to go, build what Mambo 4.7
 can do using cakePHP

  (2) Develop as much of the functionality of the Mambo core itself as
  CakePHP plugins.  This will not only make the core easily extensible,
  but it will enable CakePHP developers to more easily integrate Mambo
  code within their own applications, and lower the barrier to entry on
  contributing back to the Mambo core.

 thanks for share your thoughts, very appreciated.

 Andrés
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Re: Mambo on CakePHP brainstorm

2008-11-25 Thread Jay Reeder
Would it be feasible to merge one of the existing Cake CMS projects into
this new effort to provide a head-start?

On Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 2:12 PM, MattC [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


 I second what Nate said, especially #2.

 It would be awesome if Mambo was both a full standalone CMS, but also
 a plugin that could be dropped into any Cake app to provide CMS
 functionality.

 -Matt
 http://www.pseudocoder.com

 On Nov 25, 1:55 pm, andphe [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  Hi Nate,
 
  On Nov 25, 11:20 am, Nate [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Based on your
 stated goals, the two suggestions I would add are:
 
   (1) Develop as many of Mambo's features as possible as extensions.
   This will not only make the CMS itself as flexible as possible (and
   the CMS's extension API as robust as possible), but it will also help
   you 'feel the pain' of extension developers as they write new
   extensions or migrate old ones.
 
  It's a good idea, and it much as we want to go, build what Mambo 4.7
  can do using cakePHP
 
   (2) Develop as much of the functionality of the Mambo core itself as
   CakePHP plugins.  This will not only make the core easily extensible,
   but it will enable CakePHP developers to more easily integrate Mambo
   code within their own applications, and lower the barrier to entry on
   contributing back to the Mambo core.
 
  thanks for share your thoughts, very appreciated.
 
  Andrés
 


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Re: Mambo on CakePHP brainstorm

2008-11-24 Thread James K

Simple - if you're starting from scratch, seriously start over and
rethink a lot of the fundamentals.

Mambo's idea of what content is and how it should be organized within
a CMS is very outdated and short sighted.

Joomla's been making a valiant effort to modernize the Mambo codebase,
but it still suffers from several of the same fatal flaws in terms of
execution. Why in the world can I only organize content 2 levels deep?
Why can I only add content to a single category?

In addition, it would be wise to look into broadening Mambo's idea of
content. Drupal does a pretty good job of making it easy to create
several different content types (ie blog posts, news items, products,
etc) and handle them in different ways without having to make very
literal sections

Why are the security permissions hard coded? I know Joomla's in the
middle of a really messy migration to a proper ACL implementation, but
they're not anywhere near close yet. Security roles should be
flexible, customizable, granular, and hierarchical.

Mambo's 8 years old now and while it may be tempting to give Mambo's
users something very familiar in execution, you'd just be doing the
project a disservice by ignoring the vast innovations that have
occurred in the CMS space since Mambo was originally architected.

There are lots of good CMSes on the market - both commercial and open
source that are doing a lot of really interesting things these days.
Do your research, take all the lessons learned from Mambo development
over the years and get crackin! Before writing a line of code, you
should put a lot of thought and time into the database design. Many
fundamental design choices will be made at that point which will be
hard to go back on once you've written a significant amount of code.

The more planning you do, the better the end product will be.

Good luck!

- James


On Nov 19, 9:47 am, andphe [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Hi all, I'm on Mambo Dev team, and we realize that while we are
 planning our major rewrite of Mambo based on CakePHP, we are not
 hearing what the CakePHP community have to say.

 Specifically it would be good to have a brainstorm here, about what
 the CakePHP users/developers expect on a cake based CMS.

 So, go ahead, lets have fun

 Andrés
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Re: Mambo on CakePHP brainstorm

2008-11-20 Thread teemow

A huge benefit for the community would be a content repository
behavior. This would be somehow similar to phishys versionable, but
special to content versioning.

There is a specification for java content repositories:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Content_repository_API_for_Java

Java reference implementation:
http://jackrabbit.apache.org/

And the typo3 team is working on a php implementation (I don't know
anything about the progress):
http://typo3.org/fileadmin/teams/5.0-development/t3dd07-karsten-jcr.pdf

Thanks for sharing information about the mambo development with the
community.

Cheers,
Timo
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Re: Mambo on CakePHP brainstorm

2008-11-20 Thread andphe

Thanks for the feedback..

 What I see a lot is people looking for a admin backend that actually
 works.
 A CMS just for the MS.
 I think that a fashion way of delivering data to views, and a good UI
 work on admin end is what people really seek.

@Rafael, we are aware of the challenge that an usable and accessible
backend is, it for sure will get a lot of attention

 I guess my ideal cms would be one that didn't use crazy complicated
 callback systems with hard to discover override names.  Kept many of
 the core cake functions, used plain PHP templates with cake's core
 helpers, and some extra spice from the mambo team.  Supported i18n out
 of the box. Allowed the end client to easily do the things they needed
 to (update content) and allowed me to do my job (build the darn
 thing).

@Mark, since we decided to use cakePHP all the spirit of cake will
live inside Mambo 5, currently Mambo supports i18n using gettext (the
same than cakePHP) but additionally have a component called the
Language Manager that allows the user to translate the whole software
or modify his translations in any moment.

 But you guys know CMS systems probably far better than than any of
 us.  So I'm sure you'll come up with a good solution?  One question is
 how are you going to migrate the large code base of contributed
 modules (or whatever they are called) into mambo 5?

A key question, while we try to keep backward compatibility, Mambo 5
is a total rewrite from scratch and a change in architecture, probably
is too soon to say how backward compatible it would be but I guess all
extensions will need modifications.

 Hi, Andres, take a look at the best features of Wordpress, and you
 will have your answer. Clean API, easy theming, and the chance to make
 plugins anytime. Just my two cents.

@mbavio, Thank you, I'll check wordpress to get your point, currently
Mambo supports 4 type of extensions,

components = Major extensions, this is the king of extension that do
the hard job, so there is components for Image Galleries, Form
Generator, Forums, Content, Contacts, Banners, etc

modules  = Normally help the components to get/give input/output from/
to the user, so you have a menu module, login module, banners module,
latest content module, newsflash module, polls modules, etc

mambots = Mambots are hooks used to act under certain events (just
like wordpress actions), currently Mambo support events for content,
system, authentication, search and editors, you can trigger your own
events wihtin your components using the API

templates = like the Themes on other CMSs, all based on PHP, currently
isn't used a template engine, you can have/use more than a single
template within your website

Probably the terms could change in the way to make it more clear for
end users, but this can give you a idea of what currently exists and
will be ported.

 A huge benefit for the community would be a content repository
 behavior. This would be somehow similar to phishys versionable, but
 special to content versioning.

 There is a specification for java content 
 repositories:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Content_repository_API_for_Java

 Java reference implementation:http://jackrabbit.apache.org/

 And the typo3 team is working on a php implementation (I don't know
 anything about the 
 progress):http://typo3.org/fileadmin/teams/5.0-development/t3dd07-karsten-jcr.pdf


@Timo, thanks a lot for point me to this resource it seems pretty
useful

 Thanks for sharing information about the mambo development with the
 community.

Never mind, thank you guys for the feedback, this is a project that
can't be build without the cakePHP input.

Andrés
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Mambo on CakePHP brainstorm

2008-11-19 Thread andphe

Hi all, I'm on Mambo Dev team, and we realize that while we are
planning our major rewrite of Mambo based on CakePHP, we are not
hearing what the CakePHP community have to say.

Specifically it would be good to have a brainstorm here, about what
the CakePHP users/developers expect on a cake based CMS.

So, go ahead, lets have fun

Andrés

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Re: Mambo on CakePHP brainstorm

2008-11-19 Thread Olivier Percebois-Garve
Hi
Since the announcement of the rewrite (a year ago ?), I tried a few times to
check the progress,
but I could not find anything. So personally, the first thing I would
expect, is to have a publicly readable repository from which i could
download the last dev version.

After that, I would love the rewrite to be as close as possible to cake's
standards and conventions.

-Olivier

On Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 3:47 PM, andphe [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


 Hi all, I'm on Mambo Dev team, and we realize that while we are
 planning our major rewrite of Mambo based on CakePHP, we are not
 hearing what the CakePHP community have to say.

 Specifically it would be good to have a brainstorm here, about what
 the CakePHP users/developers expect on a cake based CMS.

 So, go ahead, lets have fun

 Andrés

 


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Re: Mambo on CakePHP brainstorm

2008-11-19 Thread andphe

Hi Olivier, thanks for reply

On 19 nov, 10:29, Olivier Percebois-Garve [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
 Hi
 Since the announcement of the rewrite (a year ago ?), I tried a few times to
 check the progress,

Yes, a long time ago, my apologize for that, a lot of water has passed
under the bridge since that, but we still seeing CakePHP like the
future of Mambo

 but I could not find anything. So personally, the first thing I would
 expect, is to have a publicly readable repository from which i could
 download the last dev version.


There is nothing to check, we have done discussions intra team on how
Mambo should work, but not code is done until now (not true at all, we
have a proof of concept, but please ignore it)

 After that, I would love the rewrite to be as close as possible to cake's
 standards and conventions.


The initiative always contemplate to use all the standards and
conventions used on cakePHP.

our plan is start ASAP, some people is willing to help (the most
valuable resource since all us are volunteers), as we still working on
a release and don't want to leave Mambo 5 more time, we have planned
to make a second dev team that works only over Mambo 5.

Basically this post aims to know how can you use a cms within your own
developments and what do you expect of the cms.

Andrés
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Re: Mambo on CakePHP brainstorm

2008-11-19 Thread Rafael Bandeira aka rafaelbandeira3

What I see a lot is people looking for a admin backend that actually
works.
A CMS just for the MS.
I think that a fashion way of delivering data to views, and a good UI
work on admin end is what people really seek.
Modularity and extensibility are huge pluses - but not strictly
necessary.
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Re: Mambo on CakePHP brainstorm

2008-11-19 Thread mark_story

For me a clean API that is easy to use is something that I would want
in a CMS.  Many of the popular CMS have very complicated API's or
multiple API's which are confusing.  As for theming, keep it simple.
I'm not familiar with the mambo code base, but I despise non PHP
templates. It just makes things complicated and slower.

I guess my ideal cms would be one that didn't use crazy complicated
callback systems with hard to discover override names.  Kept many of
the core cake functions, used plain PHP templates with cake's core
helpers, and some extra spice from the mambo team.  Supported i18n out
of the box. Allowed the end client to easily do the things they needed
to (update content) and allowed me to do my job (build the darn
thing).

But you guys know CMS systems probably far better than than any of
us.  So I'm sure you'll come up with a good solution?  One question is
how are you going to migrate the large code base of contributed
modules (or whatever they are called) into mambo 5?

-Mark

On Nov 19, 9:47 am, andphe [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Hi all, I'm on Mambo Dev team, and we realize that while we are
 planning our major rewrite of Mambo based on CakePHP, we are not
 hearing what the CakePHP community have to say.

 Specifically it would be good to have a brainstorm here, about what
 the CakePHP users/developers expect on a cake based CMS.

 So, go ahead, lets have fun

 Andrés
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Re: Mambo on CakePHP brainstorm

2008-11-19 Thread mbavio

On Nov 19, 12:47 pm, andphe [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Hi all, I'm on Mambo Dev team, and we realize that while we are
 planning our major rewrite of Mambo based on CakePHP, we are not
 hearing what the CakePHP community have to say.

 Specifically it would be good to have a brainstorm here, about what
 the CakePHP users/developers expect on a cake based CMS.

 So, go ahead, lets have fun

 Andrés

Hi, Andres, take a look at the best features of Wordpress, and you
will have your answer. Clean API, easy theming, and the chance to make
plugins anytime. Just my two cents.

Cheers,
mbavio
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