Re: [Callers] Circle & pass through as the last move of a dance

[Kalia Kliban]

On 2/13/2014 8:40 AM, Erik Hoffman wrote:

At the end of Ahz's comments:


All of which is a roundabout way of wondering what we as contra
callers can learn from square dance callers.


Probably a lot. And they from us, since they often use records, which
are dynamically more "normalized" than live people playing live music...

But the point is clear: many of us would benefit from voice lessons and
practice at theatrical enunciation. I'm calling a teacher today...


Since you mention it, and since you're in the SF Bay Area, my sister (in 
SF) teaches vocal technique for radio and voice-over actors.  She's a 
casting agent and thus has reason to want more people in the Bay Area 
who can speak clearly and compellingly.  Might be interesting to have a 
chat with her about ways to be clearer on mic over a noisy room.


Kalia

Re: [Callers] Circle & pass through as the last move of a dance

[Maia McCormick]

As was annunciation (enunciation), perhaps:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annunciation :P


On Sat, Feb 15, 2014 at 7:18 PM, rich sbardella wrote:

> was avid (avoid) a Freudian slip?
>
>
> 
>  From: rich sbardella 
> To: Erik Hoffman ; Caller's discussion list <
> call...@sharedweight.net>
> Sent: Saturday, February 15, 2014 7:12 PM
> Subject: Re: [Callers] Circle & pass through as the last move of a dance
>
>
> Thanks Erik,
> Your comments were helpful.  I use Ladies and Gents so I connected, but
> your annotation will help avid left/right confusion.  Is there a standard
> annotation for calls, and where do I find it?
> Rich
>
>
> 
> From: Erik Hoffman 
> To: rich sbardella ; Caller's discussion list <
> call...@sharedweight.net>
> Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2014 11:47 AM
> Subject: Re: [Callers] Circle & pass through as the last move of a dance
>
>
>
> On 2/13/2014 7:53 AM, rich sbardella wrote:
> > I love the way the Hey is described in the dance below.  As a caller
> that is new to contra, the notation helps to understand the flow a little
> better.
> > Thanks,
> > Rich
> Snip >>>
> > B1.  Hey (LR, NL, GR, PL)
> When I first looked at this, I had to get away from "Left Right" to
> "Ladies Right." I'd write: (WR, NL, MR, PL). Then looking at this, one need
> note this is a half-hey. I suppose the person jotting this down knows that,
> but for the rest of us, adding a X2 could help. Then to be explicit, one
> has to leave out the last PL. Thus to be totally accurate it's:
>
> (WR, NL, MR, PL, WR, NL, MR)
>
> Which is common, and only 7/8ths of a full hey...
>
> ~erik hoffman
> oakland, ca
> ___
> Callers mailing list
> call...@sharedweight.net
> http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers
> ___
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> call...@sharedweight.net
> http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers
>

Re: [Callers] Circle & pass through as the last move of a dance

[rich sbardella]

was avid (avoid) a Freudian slip?
 


 From: rich sbardella 
To: Erik Hoffman ; Caller's discussion list 
 
Sent: Saturday, February 15, 2014 7:12 PM
Subject: Re: [Callers] Circle & pass through as the last move of a dance
  

Thanks Erik,
Your comments were helpful.  I use Ladies and Gents so I connected, but your 
annotation will help avid left/right confusion.  Is there a standard annotation 
for calls, and where do I find it?
Rich



From: Erik Hoffman 
To: rich sbardella ; Caller's discussion list 
 
Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2014 11:47 AM
Subject: Re: [Callers] Circle & pass through as the last move of a dance
  


On 2/13/2014 7:53 AM, rich sbardella wrote:
> I love the way the Hey is described in the dance below.  As a caller that is 
> new to contra, the notation helps to understand the flow a little better.
> Thanks,
> Rich
Snip >>>
> B1.  Hey (LR, NL, GR, PL)
When I first looked at this, I had to get away from "Left Right" to "Ladies 
Right." I'd write: (WR, NL, MR, PL). Then looking at this, one need note this 
is a half-hey. I suppose the person jotting this down knows that, but for the 
rest of us, adding a X2 could help. Then to be explicit, one has to leave out 
the last PL. Thus to be totally accurate it's:

(WR, NL, MR, PL, WR, NL, MR)

Which is common, and only 7/8ths of a full hey...

~erik hoffman
    oakland, ca
___
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Re: [Callers] Circle & pass through as the last move of a dance

[rich sbardella]

The best advice I received at "caller's college"was to open my mouth wide, 
exaggerate the words (annunciation?), and the movement of my mouth, and to 
practice is a mirror.
Rich
 


 From: Erik Hoffman 
To: Caller's discussion list  
Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2014 11:40 AM
Subject: Re: [Callers] Circle & pass through as the last move of a dance
  

At the end of Ahz's comments:

> All of which is a roundabout way of wondering what we as contra callers can 
> learn from square dance callers. 

Probably a lot. And they from us, since they often use records, which are 
dynamically more "normalized" than live people playing live music...

But the point is clear: many of us would benefit from voice lessons and 
practice at theatrical enunciation. I'm calling a teacher today...

~erik hoffman
    oakland, ca
___
Callers mailing list
call...@sharedweight.net
http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers

Re: [Callers] Circle & pass through as the last move of a dance

[rich sbardella]

Thanks Erik,
Your comments were helpful.  I use Ladies and Gents so I connected, but your 
annotation will help avid left/right confusion.  Is there a standard annotation 
for calls, and where do I find it?
Rich
 


 From: Erik Hoffman 
To: rich sbardella ; Caller's discussion list 
 
Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2014 11:47 AM
Subject: Re: [Callers] Circle & pass through as the last move of a dance
  


On 2/13/2014 7:53 AM, rich sbardella wrote:
> I love the way the Hey is described in the dance below.  As a caller that is 
> new to contra, the notation helps to understand the flow a little better.
> Thanks,
> Rich
Snip >>>
> B1.  Hey (LR, NL, GR, PL)
When I first looked at this, I had to get away from "Left Right" to "Ladies 
Right." I'd write: (WR, NL, MR, PL). Then looking at this, one need note this 
is a half-hey. I suppose the person jotting this down knows that, but for the 
rest of us, adding a X2 could help. Then to be explicit, one has to leave out 
the last PL. Thus to be totally accurate it's:

(WR, NL, MR, PL, WR, NL, MR)

Which is common, and only 7/8ths of a full hey...

~erik hoffman
    oakland, ca

Re: [Callers] Circle & pass through as the last move of a dance

[Aahz Maruch]

On Thu, Feb 13, 2014, rich sbardella wrote:
>
> Watch some MWSD calling on youtube with the volume off.  You will find
> that in most of the videos, neither the dancers or the caller get the
> timing right.  It is stop and go dancing.  Contra dance is most often
> a steady flow.  The MWSD have come to expect this as the norm.

Sorry, I should have been more clear: I was referring to singing calls,
and IME that's much closer to a contra experience for flow (assuming the
caller isn't playing tricky) and hitting the phrasing.  You are correct
about patter, of course.

> On another point you made previously, MWSD callers are generally
> easier for me to understand as well.  This is by necessity.  There is
> no walkthrough, and the list of basics, coming at you randomly, can
> number into the hundreds.  The Hilton sound systems have also been
> engineered to emphasize the vocal range.

There are callers who don't use Hilton, they still tend to be easier for
me to hear than most contra callers.

The question then is, to what extent should contra callers learn from
square dance callers about being easier to hear?

Side note: one of the key points that keeps getting drilled into me as a
new square dance caller is that even full-out hash-style calling should
*NOT* be "random".  Consider R thru followed by men allemande right.
-- 
Hugs and backrubs -- I break Rule 6http://rule6.info/
  <*>   <*>   <*>
Help a hearing-impaired person: http://rule6.info/hearing.html

Re: [Callers] Circle & pass through as the last move of a dance

[Erik Hoffman]

On 2/13/2014 7:53 AM, rich sbardella wrote:

I love the way the Hey is described in the dance below.  As a caller that is 
new to contra, the notation helps to understand the flow a little better.
Thanks,
Rich

Snip >>>

B1.  Hey (LR, NL, GR, PL)
When I first looked at this, I had to get away from "Left Right" to 
"Ladies Right." I'd write: (WR, NL, MR, PL). Then looking at this, one 
need note this is a half-hey. I suppose the person jotting this down 
knows that, but for the rest of us, adding a X2 could help. Then to be 
explicit, one has to leave out the last PL. Thus to be totally accurate 
it's:


(WR, NL, MR, PL, WR, NL, MR)

Which is common, and only 7/8ths of a full hey...

~erik hoffman
oakland, ca

Re: [Callers] Circle & pass through as the last move of a dance

[Erik Hoffman]

At the end of Ahz's comments:

All of which is a roundabout way of wondering what we as contra 
callers can learn from square dance callers. 


Probably a lot. And they from us, since they often use records, which 
are dynamically more "normalized" than live people playing live music...


But the point is clear: many of us would benefit from voice lessons and 
practice at theatrical enunciation. I'm calling a teacher today...


~erik hoffman
oakland, ca

Re: [Callers] Circle & pass through as the last move of a dance

[rich sbardella]

Aahz,
Watch some MWSD calling on youtube with the volume off.  You will find that in 
most of the videos, neither the dancers or the caller get the timing right.  It 
is stop and go dancing.  Contra dance is most often a steady flow.  The MWSD 
have come to expect this as the norm.
On another point you made previously, MWSD callers are generally easier for me 
to understand as well.  This is by necessity.  There is no walkthrough, and the 
list of basics, coming at you randomly, can number into the hundreds.  The 
Hilton sound systems have also been engineered to emphasize the vocal range.
Rich
 


 From: Aahz Maruch 
To: call...@sharedweight.net 
Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2014 1:54 AM
Subject: Re: [Callers] Circle & pass through as the last move of a dance
  

On Wed, Feb 12, 2014, Greg McKenzie wrote:
>
> Well-structured calling is not easy.  It does however make a subtle but
> significant difference in how confident the dancers feel--particularly at
> open, public social events.  That is why I structure my calls carefully and
> write the calls out verbatim on my cards.  That is also why I advocate for
> callers at open public contra dances to use dance cards when calling.
> Making up calls on the fly often puts the onus on the dancers to get the
> timing right.

While I don't particularly disagree with you, particularly for me at this
stage in my calling career, I do find it interesting that your advice to
avoid making up calls on the fly is almost universally ignored by MWSD
callers -- and with the majority of square dance callers (which is to
say, almost all the good ones), it's not the dancers who face the onus of
getting the timing right.
-- 
Hugs and backrubs -- I break Rule 6                        http://rule6.info/
                      <*>           <*>           <*>
Help a hearing-impaired person: http://rule6.info/hearing.html
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Re: [Callers] Circle & pass through as the last move of a dance

[Aahz Maruch]

On Wed, Feb 12, 2014, Alan Winston wrote:
> On 2/12/2014 10:54 PM, Aahz Maruch wrote:
>>On Wed, Feb 12, 2014, Greg McKenzie wrote:
>>>
>>>Well-structured calling is not easy.  It does however make a subtle but
>>>significant difference in how confident the dancers feel--particularly at
>>>open, public social events.  That is why I structure my calls carefully and
>>>write the calls out verbatim on my cards.  That is also why I advocate for
>>>callers at open public contra dances to use dance cards when calling.
>>>Making up calls on the fly often puts the onus on the dancers to get the
>>>timing right.
>>
>>While I don't particularly disagree with you, particularly for me at this
>>stage in my calling career, I do find it interesting that your advice to
>>avoid making up calls on the fly is almost universally ignored by MWSD
>>callers -- and with the majority of square dance callers (which is to
>>say, almost all the good ones), it's not the dancers who face the onus of
>>getting the timing right.
> 
> Aahz, when Greg says "callers at open public contra dances" he really,
> really means it.  The MWSD world is almost the opposite of what he's
> talking about.  I:f you can figure that anyone at your dance has been
> to classes and knows figures, you can do a lot differently.
>
> Greg's idea is that at OPCD, anybody can walk through the door,
> receive no lesson from a caller, and be swept up by the experienced
> dancers (eg, anyone who's ever done it before); the caller needs to
> avoid it making it unattractive for experienced dancers to dance with
> newcomers (eg, running dances a shorter time so that experienced
> dancers will know they're not making a huge time commitment if they
> dance with a newcomer), conveying the dance with effective word order
> and perfect timing, and pretty much not teaching anything, leaving
> that up to the experienced dancers.

Yuck.  ;-)  And I'm speaking with my contra dancer hat.

> MWSD caller responsibility: Call an entertaining program at whatever
> level the dance is advertised to be that works for the people there.
> 
> OPCD caller responsibility: Integrate the floor as much as possible
> and stay out of the way of the teaching that's happening on the
> floor.
> 
> (Greg, is that fair?)

Assuming that it is fair, my point still stands, particularly given the
need for experienced dancers with Greg's approach.  I've been to square
dances classes as an "angel" (experienced dancer to seed the crowd, which
is a standard component of square dance classes), and a good square dance
teacher is still going to be doing singing calls on the fly, with proper
timing, adjusting to the class that they have, relying on the angels for
a lot of the instruction/guidance.

I also wonder to what extent this has any relationship to the fact that
square dance callers are statistically considerably better than contra
callers at enunciating.  That is, with my hearing impairment (deaf with
cochlear implant), I often hear square dance callers better over the
music than I do contra callers without music during the walkthrough.
(I'm entirely amenable to the possibility that the sound system has
something to do with this, but it's something I have noticed across a
large number of different halls and callers, so if the sound system has
significant effect, it's something that is "standard" for contra sound
setup.)

All of which is a roundabout way of wondering what we as contra callers
can learn from square dance callers.
-- 
Hugs and backrubs -- I break Rule 6http://rule6.info/
  <*>   <*>   <*>
Help a hearing-impaired person: http://rule6.info/hearing.html

Re: [Callers] Circle & pass through as the last move of a dance

[Alan Winston]

On 2/12/2014 10:54 PM, Aahz Maruch wrote:

On Wed, Feb 12, 2014, Greg McKenzie wrote:

Well-structured calling is not easy.  It does however make a subtle but
significant difference in how confident the dancers feel--particularly at
open, public social events.  That is why I structure my calls carefully and
write the calls out verbatim on my cards.  That is also why I advocate for
callers at open public contra dances to use dance cards when calling.
Making up calls on the fly often puts the onus on the dancers to get the
timing right.

While I don't particularly disagree with you, particularly for me at this
stage in my calling career, I do find it interesting that your advice to
avoid making up calls on the fly is almost universally ignored by MWSD
callers -- and with the majority of square dance callers (which is to
say, almost all the good ones), it's not the dancers who face the onus of
getting the timing right.


Aahz, when Greg says "callers at open public contra dances" he really, 
really means it.  The MWSD world is almost the
opposite of what he's talking about.  I:f you can figure that anyone at 
your dance has been to classes and knows figures,

you can do a lot differently.

Greg's idea is that at OPCD, anybody can walk through the door, receive 
no lesson from a caller, and be swept up by the experienced dancers (eg, 
anyone who's ever done it before); the caller needs to avoid it making 
it unattractive for experienced dancers to dance with newcomers (eg, 
running dances a shorter time so that experienced dancers will know 
they're not making a huge time commitment if they dance with a 
newcomer), conveying the dance with effective word order and perfect 
timing, and pretty much not teaching anything, leaving that up to the 
experienced dancers.


MWSD caller responsibility: Call an entertaining program at whatever 
level the dance is advertised to be that works for the people there.


OPCD caller responsibility: Integrate the floor as much as possible and 
stay out of the way of the teaching that's happening on the floor.


(Greg, is that fair?)

-- Alan

Re: [Callers] Circle & pass through as the last move of a dance

[Aahz Maruch]

On Wed, Feb 12, 2014, Greg McKenzie wrote:
>
> Well-structured calling is not easy.  It does however make a subtle but
> significant difference in how confident the dancers feel--particularly at
> open, public social events.  That is why I structure my calls carefully and
> write the calls out verbatim on my cards.  That is also why I advocate for
> callers at open public contra dances to use dance cards when calling.
> Making up calls on the fly often puts the onus on the dancers to get the
> timing right.

While I don't particularly disagree with you, particularly for me at this
stage in my calling career, I do find it interesting that your advice to
avoid making up calls on the fly is almost universally ignored by MWSD
callers -- and with the majority of square dance callers (which is to
say, almost all the good ones), it's not the dancers who face the onus of
getting the timing right.
-- 
Hugs and backrubs -- I break Rule 6http://rule6.info/
  <*>   <*>   <*>
Help a hearing-impaired person: http://rule6.info/hearing.html

Re: [Callers] Circle & pass through as the last move of a dance

[Greg McKenzie]

James,

Thanks for your studied reply to my post.

Jim wrote:

> First, I see no point in urging dancers to brisk circling in cases
>
where the action following "circle left 3/4; pass through" gives the
> dancers adequate opportunity to make up time...
>

I agree with the suggestion of urging dancers to circle briskly.  It's a
short, quick comment that can help.  My concern was in structuring my calls
so that they match the timing of the dance precisely.  My goal is to teach
the dancers that my calls contain reliable information about the timing of
the dance.

Second, in cases where I think inspiring dancers circle briskly *is*
> worthwhile--for example, when "circle left 3/4 (6); pass through (2)" is
> followed by "new neighbors balance"--I think it is no sin to finish the
> call "pass through" before beat 6 of the circle.  In fact, in such
> cases, I usually give the call "pass through" on beats 3 and 4.
>

That seems to be what most callers do in this case.  That's what I was
doing...until I resolved to fix the structure of my calls to match the
actual dance timing.

It is not a "sin" to call early.  Nor is it a "sin" to attempt to teach the
timing of the dance with verbal instructions.  What I hope to avoid is
standing before a mixed crowd of dancers.  Asking an excellent band to hold
their music.  And asking a wonderful dance community to hold off on their
social interactions and listen patiently while I attempt to explain the
timing of the dance verbally with counted beats, steps, or whatever.  Then,
when the music begins, to embarrass myself by giving my calls either early
or late.  And that is why I asked for help here.

And I got some very good suggestions.  Hopefully I can now call the dance
with more confidence and the dancers will feel more confidence because my
calls are consistent with the timing of the dance.

The dancers in your video look like a competent group of regulars who are
able to adapt to poorly-structured calls quickly and graciously.  I'm sure
they have a lot of practice at it.  I find it very productive to be more
diligent in my own calling.

Well-structured calling is not easy.  It does however make a subtle but
significant difference in how confident the dancers feel--particularly at
open, public social events.  That is why I structure my calls carefully and
write the calls out verbatim on my cards.  That is also why I advocate for
callers at open public contra dances to use dance cards when calling.
Making up calls on the fly often puts the onus on the dancers to get the
timing right.

- Greg McKenzie
West Coast, USA

Re: [Callers] Circle & pass through as the last move of a dance

[James Saxe]

On Feb 12, 2014, at 4:28 PM, Bob Isaacs wrote:

... when the A1 [of a Becket dance] is circle L 3/4 and pass  
through, new neighbor swing, that swing often gets compressed to  
about 6 beats.  Fortunately, Gene Hubert gave us a better alternative:

...
A1.  Slide L and circle L 3/4, neighbor swing


Instead of "Slide L and circle L", you could also use

   (With new neighbors) on the left diagonal, circle L ...

I've somehow gotten the impression that dancers on average find
it a little easier to think about finishing a partner swing (common
as the last move of modern Becket dances) facing new neighbors
on the left diagonal than to think about ending the swing facing
across and then shifting left.  Others may disagree, and it may
mainly be a matter of what dancers in a particular community are
used to.

When the call is "on the left diagonal, circle L" there may be
some question about whether to describe the amount of circling
as "3/4" or some other way (e.g., "7/8" or "almost once"), but
as long as the caller makes the ending position clear ("... until
you're on the side of the set with your neighbor"--adding, if
necessary, that men are on their home side and women are not), I
haven't noticed many dancers having problems with it.

--Jim

Re: [Callers] Circle & pass through as the last move of a dance

[James Saxe]

On Feb 11, 2014, at 2:53 PM, Greg Mcenzie wrote, concerning the
dance "Kiss the Bride" by Jeff Spero" (see _Southern California
Twirls_ or http://www.quiteapair.us/calling/acdol/dance/acd_81.html
for instructions):

Kiss the Bride is particularly difficult because it uses the circle  
3/4,
pass through transition at the end and the last call I need to fit  
in is
"dosido" which takes two beats.  Because it is where the progression  
takes
place I also want to say "With the NEXT" to make that clear as  
well.  On my
current dance card I "solved" the problem by giving the "Pass  
Through" call
early.  That is unacceptable to me and I was trying to come up with  
a good

way to make it work using calls that are precisely in time with the
phrasing.



I will beg to differ with Greg on two points.

First, I see no point in urging dancers to brisk circling in cases
where the action following "circle left 3/4; pass through" gives the
dancers adequate opportunity to make up time if they use 8 beats to
circle left 3/4--as, for example, in "Kiss the Bride", where "circle
left 3/4; pass through" is followed by "new neighbors do-si-do and
swing".

Second, in cases where I think inspiring dancers circle briskly *is*
worthwhile--for example, when "circle left 3/4 (6); pass through (2)" is
followed by "new neighbors balance"--I think it is no sin to finish the
call "pass through" before beat 6 of the circle.  In fact, in such
cases, I usually give the call "pass through" on beats 3 and 4.

In illustration of my first point, look at this this video:

http://dancevideos.childgrove.org/contra/contra-modern/235-small-potatoes

The dance is "Small Potatoes" by Jim Kitch (alas, I couldn't find a  
video

of "Kiss the Bride"), called by Karen Jackson.  The description beside
the video frame gives the B2 of the dance as

(8) Circle left 3/4, pass thru;
(8) Next neighbor do si do

But if you watch what the dancers are doing, you'll see that they're
generally taking eight beats to circle 3/4.  You'll also see that they
generally have no trouble completing both the pass through and the
do-si-do in the next eight beats, so that they're ready for the balance
at the beginning of the A1 music.  The caller, by the way, utters the
"through" in "pass through" usually on beat 7 of B2, except in the
second round of the dance, where she says "through" on beat 6, and in
the sixth round, where says "pass through" on beats 9 and 10. (By the
sixth round she may have been about the drop that call altogether but
then noticed a few people who seemed still to need a reminder.)  There
may be some who would criticize Karen's timing, but when I look at the
video I don't notice even the slightest evidence that the call timing
is giving rise to any awkwardness on the floor.

In illustration of my second point (about calling "pass through" during
beats 3 and 4 of the circle), look at these videos:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_-uD_-nV6g
(Steve Zakon-Anderson calls a contra medley at the Concord
Scout House.  Notice his timing on the third sequence in
the medley, Lisa Greenlef's "After the Solstice", wich
starts around 5:40.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMInHQo4mJY
(Maggie Cowan calls "Black Bird in the Night" by Don
Flaherty.)

My mean reason for giving the call "pass through" on beats 3 and 4 is
that I hope the slightly "early" call will implicitly encourage any
slow circlers to pick up their pace.  If you say "pass through" on
beats 5 and 6, it's already too late to help any dancers who haven't
gotten their circles turned 3/4 of the way around by the time you say
"through".

A secondary advantage is that I then have all of beats 5-8 to give
the next call, for example:

 go ON to then NEXT; BALance and SWING
or
 make NEW VAVES and BALance NOW
or
 NEW LAdies  ALlemande LEFT
 [as in "THe Equal Turn" by Tom Hinds]
etc.

--Jim

Re: [Callers] Circle & pass through as the last move of a dance

[Greg McKenzie]

Thanks Lindsay.  This piece is excellent.  It highlights the nonverbal
teaching that is central to community dance.

- Greg McKenzie
West Coast, USA


On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 7:07 AM, Lindsay Morris wrote:

> Bruce Hamilton's excellent one-pager on how experienced dancers can best
> help  >newcomers
> is worth a read.  In fact, it's worth handing out at the dance.
>
> 
> Lindsay Morris
> CEO, TSMworks
> Tel. 1-859-539-9900
> lind...@tsmworks.com
>
>
> On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 9:54 AM, rich sbardella  >wrote:
>
> > Greg wrote:
> > ...But that's a lot of words to cram in at the very end of the dance
> > phrase.  If the dance started with "Balance and swing" for example, I
> could
> > fit in the word "Balance" which only takes one beat.
> > I'm thinking of just dropping the dance from my repertoire.
> >
> >
> > There would be a lot of dances to drop.  A square dance caller might say
> > Pass thru and Dosi Next.  It easily fits in, takes a syllable out and
> > dancers hear Dosi as Dosido.  In walkthrough you could explain your call
> if
> > needed.
> >
> > Rich Sbardella
> >
> >
> > 
> >  From: Greg McKenzie 
> > To: Caller's discussion list 
> > Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2014 5:53 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Callers] Circle & pass through as the last move of a dance
> >
> >
> > Dave wrote:
> >
> > > Logistically, I think Greg's approach is difficult to make work.
>  There's
> > > always a new move happening after the pass through, so in effect,
> you'll
> > be
> > > calling four beats of "pass through, something something," usually
> > "balance
> > > here" or whatnot.  Because there's no break between the instruction
> "pass
> > > through" and the instruction that follows it, I don't think dancers
> > > generally realize from that phrasing that the pass through is intended
> to
> > > occur after exactly six beats of the circle.
> > >
> >
> > You are absolutely correct Dave!  Structuring calls precisely is often
> very
> > difficult and I sometimes simply drop a dance because the prompts become
> > too jumbled when actually given at the correct beat.  I posted to this
> > thread because I was, coincidentally, working on a dance called Kiss the
> > Bride by Jeffery Spero.
> >
> > Kiss the Bride is particularly difficult because it uses the circle 3/4,
> > pass through transition at the end and the last call I need to fit in is
> > "dosido" which takes two beats.  Because it is where the progression
> takes
> > place I also want to say "With the NEXT" to make that clear as well.  On
> my
> > current dance card I "solved" the problem by giving the "Pass Through"
> call
> > early.  That is unacceptable to me and I was trying to come up with a
> good
> > way to make it work using calls that are precisely in time with the
> > phrasing.
> >
> > My current card reads:
> >
> > B2:  _ _ _ _ [Hands Four and] Circle RIGHT!
> >_ [Three Places], Pass Through, with the NEXT Dosido
> >
> > To fix the timing I'm considering something like:
> >
> > B2:  _ _ _ _ [Hands Four and] Circle RIGHT!
> >_ _ [Three Places], Pass Through, NEXT Dosido
> >
> > ...But that's a lot of words to cram in at the very end of the dance
> > phrase.  If the dance started with "Balance and swing" for example, I
> could
> > fit in the word "Balance" which only takes one beat.
> >
> > I'm thinking of just dropping the dance from my repertoire.
> >
> > Thanks for reading.
> >
> > Greg McKenzie
> > West Coast, USA
> > ___
> > Callers mailing list
> > call...@sharedweight.net
> > http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers
> > ___
> > Callers mailing list
> > call...@sharedweight.net
> > http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers
> >
> ___
> Callers mailing list
> call...@sharedweight.net
> http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers
>

Re: [Callers] Circle & pass through as the last move of a dance

[John Sweeney]

Responding to a couple of points:

If you don't like saying "beats", say "steps":
"You usually have 8 steps for a circle, for this one you only have six
steps".

To get them round a circle faster without going into too much detail use
phrases such as:
"You need to get around this circle a little faster, you'll find it easier
if you put your elbows down and your hands up" - demonstrate - this tends to
make the circle smaller and increases connection so the better dancers have
a chance of pulling the slower ones round.

Happy dancing,
John

John Sweeney, Dancer, England j...@modernjive.com 01233 625 362
http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent

Re: [Callers] Circle & pass through as the last move of a dance

[Lindsay Morris]

Bruce Hamilton's excellent one-pager on how experienced dancers can best
help 
newcomers
is worth a read.  In fact, it's worth handing out at the dance.


Lindsay Morris
CEO, TSMworks
Tel. 1-859-539-9900
lind...@tsmworks.com


On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 9:54 AM, rich sbardella wrote:

> Greg wrote:
> ...But that's a lot of words to cram in at the very end of the dance
> phrase.  If the dance started with "Balance and swing" for example, I could
> fit in the word "Balance" which only takes one beat.
> I'm thinking of just dropping the dance from my repertoire.
>
>
> There would be a lot of dances to drop.  A square dance caller might say
> Pass thru and Dosi Next.  It easily fits in, takes a syllable out and
> dancers hear Dosi as Dosido.  In walkthrough you could explain your call if
> needed.
>
> Rich Sbardella
>
>
> 
>  From: Greg McKenzie 
> To: Caller's discussion list 
> Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2014 5:53 PM
> Subject: Re: [Callers] Circle & pass through as the last move of a dance
>
>
> Dave wrote:
>
> > Logistically, I think Greg's approach is difficult to make work.  There's
> > always a new move happening after the pass through, so in effect, you'll
> be
> > calling four beats of "pass through, something something," usually
> "balance
> > here" or whatnot.  Because there's no break between the instruction "pass
> > through" and the instruction that follows it, I don't think dancers
> > generally realize from that phrasing that the pass through is intended to
> > occur after exactly six beats of the circle.
> >
>
> You are absolutely correct Dave!  Structuring calls precisely is often very
> difficult and I sometimes simply drop a dance because the prompts become
> too jumbled when actually given at the correct beat.  I posted to this
> thread because I was, coincidentally, working on a dance called Kiss the
> Bride by Jeffery Spero.
>
> Kiss the Bride is particularly difficult because it uses the circle 3/4,
> pass through transition at the end and the last call I need to fit in is
> "dosido" which takes two beats.  Because it is where the progression takes
> place I also want to say "With the NEXT" to make that clear as well.  On my
> current dance card I "solved" the problem by giving the "Pass Through" call
> early.  That is unacceptable to me and I was trying to come up with a good
> way to make it work using calls that are precisely in time with the
> phrasing.
>
> My current card reads:
>
> B2:  _ _ _ _ [Hands Four and] Circle RIGHT!
>_ [Three Places], Pass Through, with the NEXT Dosido
>
> To fix the timing I'm considering something like:
>
> B2:  _ _ _ _ [Hands Four and] Circle RIGHT!
>_ _ [Three Places], Pass Through, NEXT Dosido
>
> ...But that's a lot of words to cram in at the very end of the dance
> phrase.  If the dance started with "Balance and swing" for example, I could
> fit in the word "Balance" which only takes one beat.
>
> I'm thinking of just dropping the dance from my repertoire.
>
> Thanks for reading.
>
> Greg McKenzie
> West Coast, USA
> ___
> Callers mailing list
> call...@sharedweight.net
> http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers
> ___
> Callers mailing list
> call...@sharedweight.net
> http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers
>

Re: [Callers] Circle & pass through as the last move of a dance

[rich sbardella]

Greg wrote:
...But that's a lot of words to cram in at the very end of the dance
phrase.  If the dance started with "Balance and swing" for example, I could
fit in the word "Balance" which only takes one beat.
I'm thinking of just dropping the dance from my repertoire.


There would be a lot of dances to drop.  A square dance caller might say Pass 
thru and Dosi Next.  It easily fits in, takes a syllable out and dancers hear 
Dosi as Dosido.  In walkthrough you could explain your call if needed.

Rich Sbardella
 


 From: Greg McKenzie 
To: Caller's discussion list  
Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2014 5:53 PM
Subject: Re: [Callers] Circle & pass through as the last move of a dance
  

Dave wrote:

> Logistically, I think Greg's approach is difficult to make work.  There's
> always a new move happening after the pass through, so in effect, you'll be
> calling four beats of "pass through, something something," usually "balance
> here" or whatnot.  Because there's no break between the instruction "pass
> through" and the instruction that follows it, I don't think dancers
> generally realize from that phrasing that the pass through is intended to
> occur after exactly six beats of the circle.
>

You are absolutely correct Dave!  Structuring calls precisely is often very
difficult and I sometimes simply drop a dance because the prompts become
too jumbled when actually given at the correct beat.  I posted to this
thread because I was, coincidentally, working on a dance called Kiss the
Bride by Jeffery Spero.

Kiss the Bride is particularly difficult because it uses the circle 3/4,
pass through transition at the end and the last call I need to fit in is
"dosido" which takes two beats.  Because it is where the progression takes
place I also want to say "With the NEXT" to make that clear as well.  On my
current dance card I "solved" the problem by giving the "Pass Through" call
early.  That is unacceptable to me and I was trying to come up with a good
way to make it work using calls that are precisely in time with the
phrasing.

My current card reads:

B2:  _ _ _ _ [Hands Four and] Circle RIGHT!
       _ [Three Places], Pass Through, with the NEXT Dosido

To fix the timing I'm considering something like:

B2:  _ _ _ _ [Hands Four and] Circle RIGHT!
       _ _ [Three Places], Pass Through, NEXT Dosido

...But that's a lot of words to cram in at the very end of the dance
phrase.  If the dance started with "Balance and swing" for example, I could
fit in the word "Balance" which only takes one beat.

I'm thinking of just dropping the dance from my repertoire.

Thanks for reading.

Greg McKenzie
West Coast, USA
___
Callers mailing list
call...@sharedweight.net
http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers

Re: [Callers] Circle & pass through as the last move of a dance

[Maia McCormick]

I agree that the caller trying to teach too much verbally gets pointless
very quickly. There are definitely pointers that callers can give that will
help dancers a bunch, but they should be given quickly and succinctly,
and/or shown through demonstration ("try the allemande the angry,
competitive way! Now try a noodle-arm allemande. Okay, now try it a way
that feels better to both of you.") It's distressingly easy for a caller to
make him/herself tune-out-able.

Along the lines of what Jonathan said, I'd be wary of even bringing up
"beats" to dancers at all. A lot of dancers aren't necessarily even
familiar with that terminology, or at least don't think of dancing in terms
of beats/phrase length, so to make a passing mention to the number of beats
something takes may be MORE confusing than not mentioning it all. Instead,
I would go with something like "the circle left is faster than you think!"
or "make sure you pass through in time to balance your next neighbor!" (and
then be really precise with calling the balance so it lines up directly
with the big beat--dancers on the whole tend to FEEL the beat 10x better
than they intellectually understand it).


On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 6:09 PM, Greg McKenzie  wrote:

> Donna wrote:
>
> > Personally I prefer that the "regular dancers" do not verbally "teach"
> the
> > new dancers.
> >
>
> I agree wholeheartedly and would not suggest that the regulars speak at all
> during a walk-through.
>
> The only exception to that might be when a caller is doing such a poor job
> that confusion is spreading wildly through the hall.  Sometimes it is
> necessary to clarify something when the caller makes a serious error and
> does not realize it.  Otherwise some dancers may think that the confusion
> is *their *fault.  That would be bad.
>
> The vast majority of the teaching that takes place in the dance hall is
> non-verbal.  As the only person in the hall with a microphone it is very
> important that the caller realize that fact.  Talking on mike is often much
> more disruptive than talking in the dance line.
>
> - Greg McKenzie
> West Coast, USA
> ___
> Callers mailing list
> call...@sharedweight.net
> http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers
>

Re: [Callers] Circle & pass through as the last move of a dance

[Greg McKenzie]

Donna wrote:

> Personally I prefer that the "regular dancers" do not verbally "teach" the
> new dancers.
>

I agree wholeheartedly and would not suggest that the regulars speak at all
during a walk-through.

The only exception to that might be when a caller is doing such a poor job
that confusion is spreading wildly through the hall.  Sometimes it is
necessary to clarify something when the caller makes a serious error and
does not realize it.  Otherwise some dancers may think that the confusion
is *their *fault.  That would be bad.

The vast majority of the teaching that takes place in the dance hall is
non-verbal.  As the only person in the hall with a microphone it is very
important that the caller realize that fact.  Talking on mike is often much
more disruptive than talking in the dance line.

- Greg McKenzie
West Coast, USA

Re: [Callers] Circle & pass through as the last move of a dance

[Greg McKenzie]

Dave wrote:

> Logistically, I think Greg's approach is difficult to make work.  There's
> always a new move happening after the pass through, so in effect, you'll be
> calling four beats of "pass through, something something," usually "balance
> here" or whatnot.  Because there's no break between the instruction "pass
> through" and the instruction that follows it, I don't think dancers
> generally realize from that phrasing that the pass through is intended to
> occur after exactly six beats of the circle.
>

You are absolutely correct Dave!  Structuring calls precisely is often very
difficult and I sometimes simply drop a dance because the prompts become
too jumbled when actually given at the correct beat.  I posted to this
thread because I was, coincidentally, working on a dance called Kiss the
Bride by Jeffery Spero.

Kiss the Bride is particularly difficult because it uses the circle 3/4,
pass through transition at the end and the last call I need to fit in is
"dosido" which takes two beats.  Because it is where the progression takes
place I also want to say "With the NEXT" to make that clear as well.  On my
current dance card I "solved" the problem by giving the "Pass Through" call
early.  That is unacceptable to me and I was trying to come up with a good
way to make it work using calls that are precisely in time with the
phrasing.

My current card reads:

B2:  _ _ _ _ [Hands Four and] Circle RIGHT!
   _ [Three Places], Pass Through, with the NEXT Dosido

To fix the timing I'm considering something like:

B2:  _ _ _ _ [Hands Four and] Circle RIGHT!
   _ _ [Three Places], Pass Through, NEXT Dosido

...But that's a lot of words to cram in at the very end of the dance
phrase.  If the dance started with "Balance and swing" for example, I could
fit in the word "Balance" which only takes one beat.

I'm thinking of just dropping the dance from my repertoire.

Thanks for reading.

Greg McKenzie
West Coast, USA

Re: [Callers] Circle & pass through as the last move of a dance

[Jonathan Sivier]

On 2/11/2014 4:11 PM, Dave Casserly wrote:

I find experienced dancers often take longer than 6 beats to circle three
places.  Regardless of whether callers should be teaching to beginners
during a walkthrough, it can help experienced dancers to hear exactly how
many counts a move should take in a particular dance.  It's something a lot
of ECD callers do, but you don't see it much in contra.


   This may be a specific instance of something I have noticed from 
time to time.  I will be talking to a person who would undoubtedly 
describe themselves as an experienced dancer, one who has been doing 
contra dance for many years.  I will say something in passing about the 
length, in beats, of a given figure or about the 64 beat length of a 
contra dance and they will look surprised, because it has never occurred 
to them that figures have a specific length, or that all contra dances 
are the same length, or that the music and dance go together.  This 
sometimes surprises me as well, in the case of people I know for certain 
have been present many times when these sort of things were mentioned by 
the caller.  So it may be that callers are telling the dancers the 
number of beats they have for a given figure, I know that I do this 
fairly often, but the dancers fail to absorb the information for one 
reason or another.


Jonathan
-
Jonathan Sivier
Caller of Contra, English and Early American Dances
jsivier AT illinois DOT edu
Dance Page: http://www.sivier.me/dance_leader.html
-
Q: How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?
A: It depends on what dance you call!

Re: [Callers] Circle & pass through as the last move of a dance

[Donna Hunt]

Personally I prefer that the "regular dancers" do not verbally "teach" the new 
dancers.  Contrary to what you've described I find that 


what I have learned to say succinctly and clearly during my years of calling 


will take a "regular dancer" 2 or 3x the amount of time to say and by that time 
the new dancer is late for the next move 


AND has learned not to listen to the caller.   





Please consider that some "regular dancers" who are dancing with beginners are 
trying to impress them with their knowledge rather than assisting 


the new dancers to learn quickly and correctly.





I agree that taking "a second to mention" (as John suggested) tricky timing or 
the execution of a move "Ladies Chain: Ladies give right hands pull by 


give your left to the gent for  a courtesy turn" takes no more time to explain 
than it takes the dancers to walk it through.  


Of course this much detail is for the first and possibly second Ladies Chain of 
the evening and NOT every time.


I prefer that the "regulars" teach by example and "show" by action as I explain 
with words.





I do not endorse "A caller who jabbers constantly" (as you wrote)... but to 
"drip-feed good ideas" (as John suggested)


throughout the evening, taking a few seconds here and a few seconds, I believe, 
will help create a more cohesive dance experience 


for all on the floor.


 

Donna Hunt

 

 

-Original Message-
From: Greg McKenzie 
To: Caller's discussion list 
Sent: Tue, Feb 11, 2014 4:56 pm
Subject: Re: [Callers] Circle & pass through as the last move of a dance


John wrote:

Read also mentioned "avoidance of teaching".
>
> But we ARE teachers.  You may CALL it a walk-through, but what you are
> actually doing is TEACHING the dance.  And if the dance will work better if
> you point out some key items then go head and point them out, i.e. teach!
>

I know that many of us love teaching.  In fact it seems to be one reason
many take up calling in the first place.  But teaching from the mike at an
open, public contra dance can be very counterproductive...particularly with
regard to your efforts to integrate first-timers into the fun.

You love to teach.  But so do most of the regular dancers.  A big part of
the fun of partnering with newcomers is being able to guide them through
the dance and share your passion for this wonderful dance form.  While the
caller is teaching verbally it is almost impossible for the regulars to
enjoy their own "teaching" role.  If you really want the regulars to
partner with first-timers one of the key "tricks" is to make sure the
regulars will have time to take the lead and "teach" their partner during
the walk through.

This is what makes partnering with regulars fun,  And that is why I try to
keep my prompts to an absolute minimum during the walk-through.

A caller who jabbers constantly during the walk-through can transform the
joy of a collaborative learning experience into a dreadful chore as the
regulars are required to stand by silently while the caller *explains *a
move that they could *show *their partner in less time than it would take
the caller to say the *name *of the move.

And later the caller will complain that it is so hard to get the regulars
to partner with first-timers.

Instead of "explaining" that a circle takes only "6 counts" I would gently
suggest that callers consider simply giving the prompt "pass through" so
that it ends precisely two counts before the end of the phrase.

That way you can "say it all" with only two words and the dancers get to
keep moving in time with the live music.  Make it fun!

Just a thought.

Greg McKenzie
West Coast, USA
___
Callers mailing list
call...@sharedweight.net
http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers

 

Re: [Callers] Circle & pass through as the last move of a dance

[Dave Casserly]

Logistically, I think Greg's approach is difficult to make work.  There's
always a new move happening after the pass through, so in effect, you'll be
calling four beats of "pass through, something something," usually "balance
here" or whatnot.  Because there's no break between the instruction "pass
through" and the instruction that follows it, I don't think dancers
generally realize from that phrasing that the pass through is intended to
occur after exactly six beats of the circle.

I find experienced dancers often take longer than 6 beats to circle three
places.  Regardless of whether callers should be teaching to beginners
during a walkthrough, it can help experienced dancers to hear exactly how
many counts a move should take in a particular dance.  It's something a lot
of ECD callers do, but you don't see it much in contra.

-Dave


On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 4:56 PM, Greg McKenzie  wrote:
>
> Instead of "explaining" that a circle takes only "6 counts" I would gently
> suggest that callers consider simply giving the prompt "pass through" so
> that it ends precisely two counts before the end of the phrase.
>
> That way you can "say it all" with only two words and the dancers get to
> keep moving in time with the live music.  Make it fun!
>
> Just a thought.
>
> Greg McKenzie
> West Coast, USA
> ___
> Callers mailing list
> call...@sharedweight.net
> http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers
>



-- 
David Casserly
(cell) 781 258-2761

Re: [Callers] Circle & pass through as the last move of a dance

[Greg McKenzie]

John wrote:

Read also mentioned "avoidance of teaching".
>
> But we ARE teachers.  You may CALL it a walk-through, but what you are
> actually doing is TEACHING the dance.  And if the dance will work better if
> you point out some key items then go head and point them out, i.e. teach!
>

I know that many of us love teaching.  In fact it seems to be one reason
many take up calling in the first place.  But teaching from the mike at an
open, public contra dance can be very counterproductive...particularly with
regard to your efforts to integrate first-timers into the fun.

You love to teach.  But so do most of the regular dancers.  A big part of
the fun of partnering with newcomers is being able to guide them through
the dance and share your passion for this wonderful dance form.  While the
caller is teaching verbally it is almost impossible for the regulars to
enjoy their own "teaching" role.  If you really want the regulars to
partner with first-timers one of the key "tricks" is to make sure the
regulars will have time to take the lead and "teach" their partner during
the walk through.

This is what makes partnering with regulars fun,  And that is why I try to
keep my prompts to an absolute minimum during the walk-through.

A caller who jabbers constantly during the walk-through can transform the
joy of a collaborative learning experience into a dreadful chore as the
regulars are required to stand by silently while the caller *explains *a
move that they could *show *their partner in less time than it would take
the caller to say the *name *of the move.

And later the caller will complain that it is so hard to get the regulars
to partner with first-timers.

Instead of "explaining" that a circle takes only "6 counts" I would gently
suggest that callers consider simply giving the prompt "pass through" so
that it ends precisely two counts before the end of the phrase.

That way you can "say it all" with only two words and the dancers get to
keep moving in time with the live music.  Make it fun!

Just a thought.

Greg McKenzie
West Coast, USA

Re: [Callers] Circle & pass through as the last move of a dance

[James Saxe]

our last go-round on "Circle Left 3/4 (6 beats); pass through (2)"
was in June of last year.  You can find the messages (including
my own brilliant insights on the subject) in the archive starting
at

http://www.sharedweight.net/pipermail/callers/2013-June/date.html#6252

(There are earlier messages with the subject line "Circle left 3/4"
remarking on the frequent occurrence of that figure and requesting or
supplying dances that don't include it.  The discussion about timing
starts at the point I've indicated above, with a message by Read Weaver
dated Thu Jun 6 08:47:53 EDT 2013.)

--Jim

Re: [Callers] Circle & pass through as the last move of a dance

[John Sweeney]

Actually: " Circle 3/4 & pass through as ANY move of a dance" I think.

Yes, lots of excellent callers stress that circle 3/4 is six beats. I wish
more callers would do it.

Read also mentioned "avoidance of teaching".

But we ARE teachers.  You may CALL it a walk-through, but what you are
actually doing is TEACHING the dance.  And if the dance will work better if
you point out some key items then go head and point them out, i.e. teach!

In fact there are LOTS of moves that are really 6+2:
Down the Hall in Lines of Four (6) Turn Alone (2).
Swing (6) open out (with a twirl maybe) for the next move (2)
Star/Circle Left (6) turn to prepare to go back the other way (2)

These are all things that cause dancers to be late because they do an eight
beat move and then spend the first part of the next phrase preparing for the
next move. I suspect it might help a lot if we mentioned the 6/2 concept
more when calling/teaching!

Other examples that would benefit from a few key phrases from the caller
(these are all from recent dances attended by hundreds of "experienced"
dancers):

Down the Hall in Lines of Four (4) California Twirl (4) - it's amazing how
many dancers think they can do California Twirl in one beat and end up
making lines crash - callers could just mention that California Twirl takes
longer than Turn Alone so start around beat 5.  (E.g Balance the Ring (4)
California Twirl (4))

Men Allemande Left 1 & 1/2 - please, please, please tell them that it is
dancing and not arm-wrestling - that if their arm moves closer to their body
then they LOSE! :-)  It is so frustrating having to fight (which I won't do
any more after two shoulder operations) or accept that you aren't going to
get around easily and that you aren't going to be able to spin out because
it is too late and your arm has been forced into an awkward position.

Swings where your partner hangs, grips, clamps, leans or otherwise prevents
a wonderful experience - I wish callers would mention more (even to the most
"experienced" dancers) that it is a loving embrace, a gentle counterbalance
and relaxing will make the experience so much better.

It only takes a second to mention these and similar elements during a
walk-through. If we all drip-feed good ideas then some of the dancers will
try them out and enjoy them.

Yes, we should teach! :-)

Happy dancing,
John

John Sweeney, Dancer, England j...@modernjive.com 01233 625 362
http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent

Re: [Callers] Circle & pass through as the last move of a dance

[John W Gintell]

There are several other factors that effect this move. Sometime it is what 
happened before the circle causes the circle to start late because some people 
aren't there on time.

And if you are in the circle and the fourth person isn't quite there do those 
who are there trust that they'll catch up and thus start the circle on time or 
do you wait until they are there thus not even giving you 6 counts for the 
circle.

It is also surprising to discover how many people (and I don't mean only 
beginners) don't actually understand the 8-beat phrase - and depending on what 
the band is doing there may not be quite enough reinforcement. For people with 
no musical education - and there are lot more of them these days because school 
budgeting problems - phrases and beats are a foreign concept. And they are not 
going to absorb much through much popular music and butchered Star Spangled 
Banners sung at sports events.


> Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2014 17:42:21 -0500
> From: Read Weaver 
> To: Caller's discussion list 
> Subject: [Callers] Circle & pass through as the last move of a dance
> Message-ID: <8bce1a2d-60eb-4067-957d-5e19b2826...@igc.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> 
> In the last few years, I find myself dancing a lot more dances that end with
> Circle left 3 places and pass through
> 
> What I find is that about 3/4 of the dancers take 8 counts to do the circle 3 
> places, then a brief but indeterminate amount of time to do the pass through, 
> and then arrive late to the next couple & next figure. (The other 1/4 take 6 
> counts to circle, 2 to pass through, and are then on the music's phrasing for 
> the next figure.)
> 
> It seems to me likely that this is frustrating to almost everyone. The "eight 
> and late" dancers think "what a stupid dance, I can't get where I'm supposed 
> to be in time," and the "6 + 2" dancers think "why are 3/4 of the people not 
> here when I get here?"
> 
> I haven't done a careful study, but I did just go to an experienced dance, 
> and my impression is that the 3/4 - 1/4 ratio doesn't change with level of 
> experience (though the experienced dancers, whatever their timing is, do it 
> with more confidence). And I don't think there's anything all that surprising 
> about that: we hardly do anything in contras to a count of 6 or 2. (If I've 
> noticed any pattern, it's that contra dancers who also do English are more 
> likely to dance it 6+2.) I do it 6+2, since it's the only way I can see to 
> both dance to the phrasing and not be late to the next figure.
> 
> It seems like a caller could point it out which might help some (though 
> dancers' experience that everything is in a count of 8 or 4 is pretty 
> ingrained), but the avoidance of teaching seems to prevent that--I don't 
> recall any caller ever saying anything about it.
> 
> Have others noticed it as an issue? (And am I right that it's a relatively 
> recent issue?) Thoughts on what to do about it, if anything?
> 
> --Read Weaver
> Jamaica Plain, MA
> http://lcfd.org
> 

Re: [Callers] Circle & pass through as the last move of a dance

[Yoyo Zhou]

On Mon, Feb 10, 2014 at 2:42 PM, Read Weaver  wrote:
> In the last few years, I find myself dancing a lot more dances that end with
> Circle left 3 places and pass through
>
> What I find is that about 3/4 of the dancers take 8 counts to do the circle 3 
> places, then a brief but indeterminate amount of time to do the pass through, 
> and then arrive late to the next couple & next figure. (The other 1/4 take 6 
> counts to circle, 2 to pass through, and are then on the music's phrasing for 
> the next figure.)

Don't forget those who opt for 6-8 counts to circle + 2 counts to
twirl their neighbor + 2 to pass through. (The twirl doesn't
necessarily break the flow, but it can make late dancers later.)

> Have others noticed it as an issue? (And am I right that it's a relatively 
> recent issue?) Thoughts on what to do about it, if anything?

Yes, it's an issue. I have noticed that while calling, calling "pass
through" and "balance" with enough leading (e.g. "..._pass_ _through_,
_on_ to the _next_, _bal_ance _now_!") can help, especially once the
dancers have the pattern and I'm going to drop out soon.

Teaching-wise, one can also mention that the circle has to be
purposeful (the same tip for circle left all the way in 8 beats). But
teaching can only do so much.

Yoyo Zhou

Re: [Callers] Circle & pass through as the last move of a dance

[Grant Goodyear]

On Mon, Feb 10, 2014 at 4:42 PM, Read Weaver  wrote:

> What I find is that about 3/4 of the dancers take 8 counts to do the
> circle 3 places, then a brief but indeterminate amount of time to do the
> pass through, and then arrive late to the next couple & next figure. (The
> other 1/4 take 6 counts to circle, 2 to pass through, and are then on the
> music's phrasing for the next figure.)
>
> It seems like a caller could point it out which might help some (though
> dancers' experience that everything is in a count of 8 or 4 is pretty
> ingrained), but the avoidance of teaching seems to prevent that--I don't
> recall any caller ever saying anything about it.
>

If the next move after the pass through is timing-critical, like a balance,
then the caller can strongly cue that move, such as: "...new N, balance
_now_!"  That's what I do when I find people are invariably running late,
and it often tends to fix it within a few repetitions.

If the next move is something where the timing can be fuzzy then I'll often
point out the tight timing during the walkthrough, but let it slide during
the dance.

-Grant-
-- 
Grant Goodyear
web: http://www.grantgoodyear.org
e-mail: gr...@grantgoodyear.org

Re: [Callers] Circle & pass through as the last move of a dance

[Alan Winston]

Read noted that circle three places and pass through takes 8 counts for 
1/4 of the room and 10 counts or something like it for the rest, and 
asks if there's anything to be done about it.


It seems to me that the extremely common "circle left three place and 
swing your [partner|neighbor] on the side" teaches people that a 3/4 
circle is eight counts, so if you want something different it'll take a 
lot of emphasis.  (And we're somewhat used to killing extra time from 
the circle with a twirl out or something.  This may be why I see some 
guys twirling women out in circle and pass through, where it has no 
place at all and makes them late and possibly confused.  That is, it 
might be inappropriate reflexes, rather than being showoffy or smartass. )


You can also try to hide the mess by doing something a little sloshy 
after the pass through, like a gypsy and swing or dosido and swing, 
which will work if you can see the person coming at you even if they're 
not there yet.  That finesses the problem rather than solving it.


-- Alan

On 2/10/2014 2:42 PM, Read Weaver wrote:

In the last few years, I find myself dancing a lot more dances that end with
Circle left 3 places and pass through

What I find is that about 3/4 of the dancers take 8 counts to do the circle 3 
places, then a brief but indeterminate amount of time to do the pass through, and 
then arrive late to the next couple & next figure. (The other 1/4 take 6 counts 
to circle, 2 to pass through, and are then on the music's phrasing for the next 
figure.)

It seems to me likely that this is frustrating to almost everyone. The "eight and late" dancers think 
"what a stupid dance, I can't get where I'm supposed to be in time," and the "6 + 2" dancers think 
"why are 3/4 of the people not here when I get here?"

I haven't done a careful study, but I did just go to an experienced dance, and 
my impression is that the 3/4 - 1/4 ratio doesn't change with level of 
experience (though the experienced dancers, whatever their timing is, do it 
with more confidence). And I don't think there's anything all that surprising 
about that: we hardly do anything in contras to a count of 6 or 2. (If I've 
noticed any pattern, it's that contra dancers who also do English are more 
likely to dance it 6+2.) I do it 6+2, since it's the only way I can see to both 
dance to the phrasing and not be late to the next figure.

It seems like a caller could point it out which might help some (though 
dancers' experience that everything is in a count of 8 or 4 is pretty 
ingrained), but the avoidance of teaching seems to prevent that--I don't recall 
any caller ever saying anything about it.

Have others noticed it as an issue? (And am I right that it's a relatively 
recent issue?) Thoughts on what to do about it, if anything?

--Read Weaver
Jamaica Plain, MA
http://lcfd.org

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[Callers] Circle & pass through as the last move of a dance

[Read Weaver]

In the last few years, I find myself dancing a lot more dances that end with
Circle left 3 places and pass through

What I find is that about 3/4 of the dancers take 8 counts to do the circle 3 
places, then a brief but indeterminate amount of time to do the pass through, 
and then arrive late to the next couple & next figure. (The other 1/4 take 6 
counts to circle, 2 to pass through, and are then on the music's phrasing for 
the next figure.)

It seems to me likely that this is frustrating to almost everyone. The "eight 
and late" dancers think "what a stupid dance, I can't get where I'm supposed to 
be in time," and the "6 + 2" dancers think "why are 3/4 of the people not here 
when I get here?"

I haven't done a careful study, but I did just go to an experienced dance, and 
my impression is that the 3/4 - 1/4 ratio doesn't change with level of 
experience (though the experienced dancers, whatever their timing is, do it 
with more confidence). And I don't think there's anything all that surprising 
about that: we hardly do anything in contras to a count of 6 or 2. (If I've 
noticed any pattern, it's that contra dancers who also do English are more 
likely to dance it 6+2.) I do it 6+2, since it's the only way I can see to both 
dance to the phrasing and not be late to the next figure.

It seems like a caller could point it out which might help some (though 
dancers' experience that everything is in a count of 8 or 4 is pretty 
ingrained), but the avoidance of teaching seems to prevent that--I don't recall 
any caller ever saying anything about it.

Have others noticed it as an issue? (And am I right that it's a relatively 
recent issue?) Thoughts on what to do about it, if anything?

--Read Weaver
Jamaica Plain, MA
http://lcfd.org