[cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers
On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 3:59 PM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > I had some good sized iron in my home in the early 80's. We (my family - I put up 1/3, my mother covered the other 2/3) got a PET in 1979. I came home from my first Dayton Hamvention in 1982 with a PDP-8. If a high school kid can scrounge a PDP-8 by the early 80s, I'm sure an adult with a real job could have done it a lot earlier. -ethan P.S. - 90% of what ran on that PET was games - commercial ones bought from Creative Computing and Instant Software and others, as well as lots of games typed in from books and magazines (Creative Computing, BYTE, Micro, etc). We didn't have a printer and the only storage was cassette tape, so word processing and other "serious" applications were off the table. I did have some utility firmware - an improved machine language monitor (NMON), which I used to write better games (hand port of Scott Adams' engine from BASIC to 6502 machine code), BASIC Toolkit, and BASIC Aid, used for writing better programs in BASIC. Yes, Bill, arcade games were better, but they cost $0.25 a play and I could play what games we had for hours on the PET. We didn't have an Atari or other home video game console. I also typed in and played several text adventures, something that was not available on a console or in an arcade. I'm not saying that nobody did "engineering work" on a home computer, but by 1980, we sure were playing a lot of games on home computers.
[cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers
Thank you all for the notes (and feedback).
The 1964 skit of Patty Duke using that Univac-422 - all the markings of a
personal computer right there, no doubt. But dragging that into a home
doesn't make it a home computer. As engineers, sure, we're good with that
- I don't even put cases on my computers. Air flow, p, overrated.
Unless the AC cuts out in the summer.
The original video title I had was "domesticating the computer." Like
taming wild cats and wolves, and finally bringing them into our homes as
tamed beasts that become our companions. Maybe I should go back to that
title?
Some thoughts:
You can drag something like a LINC or Univac home, but it's still quite a
beast - and you'll be on your own with what is essentially a one-off system
(i.e. for finding parts and tech manuals). Even if they made 1000 of them
at best, that's still rare to find an expert to help with those systems. A
few technical folks could handle that - spending all evening loading some
kind of software, and all weekend replacing tubes. But the typical
consumer won't bother.
One of my favorite references:
https://www.tech-insider.org/personal-computers/research/acrobat/7807.pdf
And here is my summary of that article:
May 5 1966: (Steven B Gray founded Amateur Computer Society)
1966: book "We Built Our Own Computer" by A B Bolt
(not much for 1967 - some CQ magazine kits that were never built)
April 1968: ECHO IV (Jim Sutherland; 8K, 18 instructions, 160 kHz)
(no highlights for 1969/1970 - but CTC/Datapoint was active around this
time on their 3300)
1971: 1000 Minutemen I missile guidance processors became available
in surplus
1971: first "computer kit" (Louis E Frenzel, 15 instructions)
1971: Kenbak-1 (65 instructions, audio cassette storage)
1972: Don Tarbell - editor program and assembler program
early 1972: opening of "several used computer equipment stores" (used as
in surplus)
1972: 8008, TTL price drops, 1101 programmable memory (and the 1702)
1972: Roger Amidon's 4-bit "Spider" (TTL, RTTY, featured in BYTE
April 1977)
Sept. 1972: Hal Chamberline, HAL-4096 (surplus IBM 1620 core, 16-bit system)
Sept. 1972: Electronic Design article, 1024 ASCII chars on a TV set
May 1973: EPD System One kit
Sept. 1973: Don Lancaster TVT-1
Late 1973: Scelbi-8H ($2760 for 16KB, cassette IO, ASCII keyboard, o-scope
output), defunct Dec. 1974
1973: PDP-8A under $900
July 1974: Radio Electronics Jonathan Titus, Mark-8 (est. 500 units built)
Oct. 1974: SwTPC TVT-II kit and ASCII keyboard ($220 total)
April 1975: *first deliveries *of Altair 8800 (kit had no IO, 10k sold by
end of year per MITS)
April 1975: first computer-club meeting (Bob Reiling, Gordon French)
Fall 1975: MITS 4K/8K BASIC interpreters
Fall 1975: SwTPC 6800-based microcomputer
(end of first decade of "amateur computing")
Other notes:
1969: Busicom/Intel contract for printer-calculator ($200 4004)
1971: Datapoint/Intel relationship ($200 8008, interrupt capability), Intel
introduces 1101 and 1702
1972: National Semiconductor introduces IMP-16 ("user definable instruction
set")
1973: Intel 8080 ("still required an external clock and multiple power
supplies", vs 6800 required one TTL power supply)
1975-1976: "3rd gen microprocessors" Z-80, enhanced 8080 (on chip clock),
6502, TMS9900/TMS9980 (16-bit)
1977: "4th gen microprocessors" (actual "microcomputers in a single IC" --
microprocessor, ROM, programmable memory, IO on one chip)
As to opinions from younger folks: one thing I'd like to say is "don't
give up on them." Teenagers may be aloof and not seem interested now - but
don't be overly discouraged. Years later, perhaps even decades, they may
remember something about the experience and come back to it.I think my
Ice Breaker with my daughter was playing 1987 Wheel of Fortune (or maybe
1988) on the IBM PC a couple years ago -- it's "fugly" in CGA but yet
charming in its way. But the real kicker is, my daughter won (virtually)
"5000 lbs of pot" when she won one of the rounds in that version, and we
still laugh about that since it was so unexpected from a "family game from
the 1980s".
-Steve
On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 1:55 PM Will Cooke via cctalk
wrote:
>
>
> > On 03/08/2023 11:59 AM CST Tarek Hoteit via cctalk <
> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
> >
>
> > We probably need to get more advice from her on what we all, old-school
> timers, should do to help keep the legacy going on !
> >
> > Regards,
> > Tarek Hoteit
> >
>
> That statement may be the most important one on this list in a long, long
> time.
>
> Will
>
[cctalk] Re: Using Flashfloppies on Professional 350 and 380--SOLVED
Not sure yet. Will see in a week or so On March 8, 2023 1:42:58 PM EST, Lee Gleason via cctalk wrote: >"Holy smokes. Poking around on these disk images it looks like these system >have a FULL DECNET FILE SERVER as well." Are you referring to DECnet FAL on >the PRO, or the little known PRO Cluster software? -- Lee K. Gleason N5ZMR >Control-G Consultants lee.glea...@comcast.net
[cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers
:) it makes sense, Sellam, to inform her rather than she telling us, but again she and others her age are the future. She will do it her way just like we, at her age, did it our way. Funny: i just remembered a quote from Goonies - “this is our time” It is their time Regards, Tarek Hoteit > On Mar 8, 2023, at 12:22 PM, Sellam Abraham via cctalk > wrote: > > On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 11:55 AM Will Cooke via cctalk > wrote: > >>> On 03/08/2023 11:59 AM CST Tarek Hoteit via cctalk < >> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: >>> We probably need to get more advice from her on what we all, old-school >> timers, should do to help keep the legacy going on ! >>> Regards, >>> Tarek Hoteit >> That statement may be the most important one on this list in a long, long >> time. >> Will > > Huh? That makes less than zero sense. > > We're already doing what we're doing. She should be asking US what SHE > should do to preserve the legacy we've carried on to her and her generation. > > I mean, is anyone actually serious about asking Greta how to save the > planet? > > Don't abdicate your responsibilities as an experienced adult over to > inherently naive children. > > Sellam
[cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers
:) it makes sense, Sellam, to inform her rather than she telling us, but again she and others her age are the future. She will do it her way just like we, at her age, did it our way. Funny: i just remembered a quote from Goonies - “this is our time” It is their time Regards, Tarek Hoteit > On Mar 8, 2023, at 12:22 PM, Sellam Abraham via cctalk > wrote: > > On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 11:55 AM Will Cooke via cctalk > wrote: > >> >>> On 03/08/2023 11:59 AM CST Tarek Hoteit via cctalk < >> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: >>> >> >>> We probably need to get more advice from her on what we all, old-school >> timers, should do to help keep the legacy going on ! >>> >>> Regards, >>> Tarek Hoteit >>> >> >> That statement may be the most important one on this list in a long, long >> time. >> >> Will >> > > Huh? That makes less than zero sense. > > We're already doing what we're doing. She should be asking US what SHE > should do to preserve the legacy we've carried on to her and her generation. > > I mean, is anyone actually serious about asking Greta how to save the > planet? > > Don't abdicate your responsibilities as an experienced adult over to > inherently naive children. > > Sellam
[cctalk] Re: IBM PS/2 Model 80 (8580-071) restoration
> On Mar 8, 2023, at 8:18 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk > wrote: > > The label near the power switch says that it's an 8580-071. I have no idea > how that compares to the hardware that's in it. That would be 16 MHz, one 70 MB ESDI HDD (IBM 0667). Maximum 2 MB on the planar (2x 1 MB modules). > There is a video card that has a daughter-card in the same slot like a thick > sandwich. likely 8514/A > There is another card that I don't recognize. The card doesn't have any > external connectors and it looks like it takes multiple (approximately 4"x4") > daughter-cards. I am wondering if this is a memory expansion of some sort. Yes. > There are two of what I believe are the memory boards between the back hard > drive and the power supply. Yes. > Blech. Yes. > Please share any pro-tips / gotchas / etc. that you think I could benefit > from knowing. You’ll want the reference disk, and the option disks for the various boards installed. The base reference disk should have the necessary files to configure the ESDI controller and drives, might also have the necessary files to configure the memory expansion boards (not sure). Probably won’t have the 8514/A files so you’ll definitely need that option disk, unless you copy a reference disk already customized with support for those options. ok bear.
[cctalk] Re: Age of Tape Formats?
On 3/8/23 19:23, Chris Elmquist wrote: > Who can read them now? ;-) I suppose that you could rig something up as a streaming rig, but the metal was murder on heads; the Univservo I interposed a thin plastic tape between the metal and the head. Fortunately, the density was pretty low. Not easy--the contents would have to be special. But not gone forever. --Chuck
[cctalk] IBM PS/2 Model 80 (8580-071) restoration
Hi, I acquired an IBM PS/2 Model 80 (8580-071) today and am looking for advice on what I should do to check it out before, during, and after applying power for the first time. I'll try to get some pictures if anyone is interested. The label near the power switch says that it's an 8580-071. I have no idea how that compares to the hardware that's in it. There are two full size (5¼) hard drives, the controller card. I don't know what type of drives they are yet, they look to be MFM / RLL like in that they have the common cable and a per drive cable. There is a video card that has a daughter-card in the same slot like a thick sandwich. There is another card that I don't recognize. The card doesn't have any external connectors and it looks like it takes multiple (approximately 4"x4") daughter-cards. I am wondering if this is a memory expansion of some sort. There are two of what I believe are the memory boards between the back hard drive and the power supply. The battery is still in the system, but I didn't see any corrosion and it's away from the motherboard. There is also the degrading black foam used for air ducting. Blech. Q: What things should I do as part of checking out this system. I'd like to eventually power it up and see what is on the drives (if they will spin). I need to physically clean it with a damp rag and get some pictures of the system. Please share any pro-tips / gotchas / etc. that you think I could benefit from knowing. Thank you and have a good day. -- Grant. . . . unix || die
[cctalk] Re: Age of Tape Formats?
> On Mar 8, 2023, at 4:18 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk > wrote: > > On 3/8/23 13:53, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: >>> On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 1:39 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk >>> >>> wrote: >>> >>> On the subject of 1/2" open-reel tape, I note that the tapes initially >>> used with the IBM 726 drive (1952) used a cellulose acetate base. In >>> 1956, a switch was made to Mylar. That's unfortunate, since early >>> existing 726 tapes have almost certainly rotted away due to vinegar >>> syndrome. >>> >> >> I have what appears to be a stainless steel UNIVAC tape. It isn't >> crumbling away into dust anytime soon. >> > Heavy bugger,no? > Nickel-plated Vicalloy (a type of phosphor-bronze). Yes, heavy. I have one too, from UNIVAC 1 Who can read them now? ;-) cje
[cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers
On Wed, Mar 08, 2023 at 05:24:40AM -0600, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote: > We're making final touches on a short history-video we've been making about > home computers (my daughter, in middle school, has been helping). > > If anyone has time/interest to do a review, the draft listing is here: > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9mgSVJZoFc Steve, I'll start by echoing what others have said in congratulating you and your daughter on an excellent video. If you all are interested a different take on the origins of personal computing, here's a recording I made for use during the pandemic of a talk that I give every year to our freshmen at Drexel University. https://1513041.mediaspace.kaltura.com/media/Whence+Came+the+Personal+Computer/1_dq6va75g If you'd like to go back even farther, here's a page I have on the ENIAC. At the bottom are links to a number of talks I've given on the subject: http://cs.drexel.edu/~bls96/eniac/ Again, good job, and I'm very happy to see that your daughter is interested in the history of computing. BLS
[cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers
On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 6:46 PM Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > On 3/8/23 14:31, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > > THe LGP-30 was to arguably the first personal electronic (non analog) > > computer, my opinion, but it covers all of the bases as I see them. A > > relatively small stand alone real time general purpose electronic > computer > > that one person could operate. > > The Bendix G-15 also fits that description. > > Jon > > John, I have the manuals for both systems. I don't get the impression that the G-15 was sold as a "personal computer" in the same way as the Royal McBee LGP-23/30 were. The Bendix has an analog computing aspect as well so it's a different beast. I am sure people used them for some degree of personal computing, but I never read about them that way. Bill
[cctalk] Re: Age of Tape Formats?
On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 2:16 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 3/8/23 13:53, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > > On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 1:39 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk < > cctalk@classiccmp.org> > > wrote: > > > >> On the subject of 1/2" open-reel tape, I note that the tapes initially > >> used with the IBM 726 drive (1952) used a cellulose acetate base. In > >> 1956, a switch was made to Mylar. That's unfortunate, since early > >> existing 726 tapes have almost certainly rotted away due to vinegar > >> syndrome. > >> > > > > I have what appears to be a stainless steel UNIVAC tape. It isn't > > crumbling away into dust anytime soon. > > > Heavy bugger,no? > Nickel-plated Vicalloy (a type of phosphor-bronze). > 1.76 pounds on the (aluminum?) reel. That doesn't seem like much, but it's on a 6" reel, and it definitely feels dense when held. Phosphor-bronze makes more sense. Thanks for the clarification. Sellam
[cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers
On 3/8/23 14:31, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: THe LGP-30 was to arguably the first personal electronic (non analog) computer, my opinion, but it covers all of the bases as I see them. A relatively small stand alone real time general purpose electronic computer that one person could operate. The Bendix G-15 also fits that description. Jon
[cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers
On 3/8/23 14:18, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 11:54 AM Tarek Hoteit via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: I don’t think there is a strict definition of what a home computer is. One can argue Plato is one. Another might say Atari 2600. Someone can argue that the Altair is the first. A very good argument could be made that it was the LINC (1962) ==> https://www.digibarn.com/collections/systems/linc/ieee-article.htm At least one of the systems built ended up in the actual home of one of the engineers: quite possibly the first "home" computer. Yes, there is a "famous" picture of a LINC set up at the bottom of the stairs of Mary Allen Wilkes parent's home (Nobody wanted to carry the beast up the stairs...) This was in 1965. She wrote the definitive OS for that machine (LAP6). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Allen_Wilkes Jon
[cctalk] NOS Tapes 3 X 3M DC 600A 60MB Cartridges (1991)...(speaking of tapes)
Anyone interested in 3 tapes - has Olympics logo - still in original wrapping? Ether pick up at my shop or pay for postage and handling... John :-#)# -- John's Jukes Ltd. 7 - 3979 Marine Way, Burnaby, BC, Canada V5J 5E3 Call (604)872-5757 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games) flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out"
[cctalk] Re: Age of Tape Formats?
On 3/8/23 13:03, Dennis Boone via cctalk wrote: > Wow! I'd love to see the 1971 vintage GCR tape controller, it must > have been the size of a 360 CPU! We had a GCR controller from > Storage Tech. in 1982 or so that was the same size as a PDP 11/44 > large cabinet. CDC Keystone drives (92185) had it integrated into > the 680x controller micro, which I thought was pretty amazing. The IBM history pages seem to say that the initial 3420 offerings were 1600, in 1971, and that later models added GCR in 1973. The control unit, 3803, was similarly sized to the 3420 drive, iirc a bit shorter, but very roughly the same occupied square footage. OK, well, 1973 would have been built from MST instead of SLT, that gives a huge density improvement. Thanks for the update, Jon
[cctalk] Re: Age of Tape Formats?
On Mar 8, 2023, at 10:07 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > I think it remarkable in retrospect that the original Star Trek (ca. > 1966) used countless mentions of "computer tapes" in the 23rd century. > > A lack of foresight on the part of the script writers? > > What can we predict for the year 2250? > > --Chuck > Tape is dead, Long live tape! Every time someone proclaims that tape is dead, I laugh. How many here realize that there is now Tape-based Object Storage? Zane
[cctalk] Re: Age of Tape Formats?
> On Mar 8, 2023, at 8:31 AM, Jon Elson via cctalk > wrote: > > On 3/7/23 22:34, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: >> >> I’ll be the first to admit my question is a bit strange. Basically I’m >> trying to use the date that various media types were first introduced to >> show the oldest possible date for a bunch of media I’m trying to date. The >> 9-Track tapes have been inventoried as “700 6250 BPI”, and I know they’re >> the smaller reels. Doing some digging, it looks like 6250BPI tapes date >> back at least as far as 1971 with the IBM 3400 series drives, I’d thought >> that 6250 came about in the 80’s. > > Wow! I'd love to see the 1971 vintage GCR tape controller, it must have been > the size of a 360 CPU! We had a GCR controller from Storage Tech. in 1982 or > so that was the same size as a PDP 11/44 large cabinet. CDC Keystone drives > (92185) had it integrated into the 680x controller micro, which I thought was > pretty amazing. > > Jon > https://www.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhibits/storage/storage_3420.html It turns out that it was the 3420 models 2, 4, and 6 that were announced in March 1973 that supported 6250. Zane
[cctalk] Re: Age of Tape Formats?
On 3/8/23 13:53, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 1:39 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk > wrote: > >> On the subject of 1/2" open-reel tape, I note that the tapes initially >> used with the IBM 726 drive (1952) used a cellulose acetate base. In >> 1956, a switch was made to Mylar. That's unfortunate, since early >> existing 726 tapes have almost certainly rotted away due to vinegar >> syndrome. >> > > I have what appears to be a stainless steel UNIVAC tape. It isn't > crumbling away into dust anytime soon. > Heavy bugger,no? Nickel-plated Vicalloy (a type of phosphor-bronze). --Chuck
[cctalk] Re: Age of Tape Formats?
On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 1:39 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On the subject of 1/2" open-reel tape, I note that the tapes initially > used with the IBM 726 drive (1952) used a cellulose acetate base. In > 1956, a switch was made to Mylar. That's unfortunate, since early > existing 726 tapes have almost certainly rotted away due to vinegar > syndrome. > I have what appears to be a stainless steel UNIVAC tape. It isn't crumbling away into dust anytime soon. Sellam
[cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers
About eight years later, I bought a TRS80 for $398. Yes, you could buy it without the video monitor and cassette recorder. If I had a little more spending money, I might have gotten a PET, instead, or, not much later, but more money, an Apple2. Those were absolutely not the first home computer, either. But I consider them TIED with each other as to which was first of that group. (do you count announcement, production, going on sale, or being able to walk into a store and buy one without pre-order?) About eight years later, I bought a TRS80 for $398. Yes, you could buy it without the video monitor and cassette recorder. If I had a little more spending money, I might have gotten a PET, instead, or, not much later, but more money, an Apple2. Those were absolutely not the first home computer, either. But I consider them TIED with each other as to which was first of that group. (do you count announcement, production, going on sale, or being able to walk into a store and buy one without pre-order?) On Wed, 8 Mar 2023, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: I'm sure specific dates are out there, but as far as generally, the Apple ][ and PET were available for actual purchase prior to the TRS-80, and between the Apple ][ and the PET, I believe the former shipped first. LOCALLY, apparently different in other towns, TRS80 was the first one that I could walk into a store in Berkeley/Albany and walk out with one. Also, by supplying my own monitor and cassette player, $398 was by far the cheapest. (I did not say "best") It was easy to find RAM cheaper than the dealer. And, after I had splurged on the Expansion Interface when it came out (bringing the total price back up), It was easy to find cheap drives. A neighbor and I immediately got into building drive cases and power supplies and peddling those, RAM, and minor other odss and ends. (Such as the Berkeley Microcomputer Flip-Jig) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com
[cctalk] Re: Age of Tape Formats?
On the subject of 1/2" open-reel tape, I note that the tapes initially used with the IBM 726 drive (1952) used a cellulose acetate base. In 1956, a switch was made to Mylar. That's unfortunate, since early existing 726 tapes have almost certainly rotted away due to vinegar syndrome. --Chuck
[cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers
On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 1:11 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > About eight years later, I bought a TRS80 for $398. Yes, you could buy > it without the video monitor and cassette recorder. > If I had a little more spending money, I might have gotten a PET, instead, > or, not much later, but more money, an Apple2. > > Those were absolutely not the first home computer, either. But I consider > them TIED with each other as to which was first of that group. (do you > count announcement, production, going on sale, or being able to walk into > a store and buy one without pre-order?) > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com I'm sure specific dates are out there, but as far as generally, the Apple ][ and PET were available for actual purchase prior to the TRS-80, and between the Apple ][ and the PET, I believe the former shipped first. Sellam
[cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers
On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 1:04 PM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > > On 3/8/2023 2:49 PM, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: > > Don't forget that Heathkit had analog home computer kits in the 50's > > and 60's > > > > > > I forgot all about mt GE Analog computer from the late 50's. Still have > > it, it still works even though most of the insulation on the wiring has > > rotted away. I keep meaning to rewire it but never seem to get to it. > > I should, though. I have already showed my grandson how a slide rule > > works. (My collection includes a hanging wall sliderule!!) It might > > prove interesting to show him how you can do the same math on the > > analog computer. > > bill > I was able to score one of those for my collection off eBay not too long ago. They don't come around often (or cheaply, for that matter). Sellam
[cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers
I got into it from EAM/cards. In 1970, I was working at National Space Sciences Data Center, building 26 at Goddard Space Flight Center. Doing gofer work for a British physicist studying the Van Allen belts, as part of an on-site contract. FORTRAN, APL, Gerber digitizer, and plotters (Calcomp and Stromberg). When I heard about microprocessors, it was obviously inevitable that computers were destined to become small and cheap. I was getting out during a collapse of aerospace, and I opened an auto repair shop for the 1970s. I declared that I would get back into computers when I could afford a table-top computer that could run a high level language, such as FORTRAN. I never said that that would be the first home computer, since I already knew some crazy hobbyists. I merely said that that would be the first one that I would get. About eight years later, I bought a TRS80 for $398. Yes, you could buy it without the video monitor and cassette recorder. If I had a little more spending money, I might have gotten a PET, instead, or, not much later, but more money, an Apple2. Those were absolutely not the first home computer, either. But I consider them TIED with each other as to which was first of that group. (do you count announcement, production, going on sale, or being able to walk into a store and buy one without pre-order?) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com
[cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers
On 3/8/2023 2:49 PM, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: Don't forget that Heathkit had analog home computer kits in the 50's and 60's I forgot all about mt GE Analog computer from the late 50's. Still have it, it still works even though most of the insulation on the wiring has rotted away. I keep meaning to rewire it but never seem to get to it. I should, though. I have already showed my grandson how a slide rule works. (My collection includes a hanging wall sliderule!!) It might prove interesting to show him how you can do the same math on the analog computer. bill
[cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers
We can ask them by saying “we were at your age and had toys that we loved so much that we still talk about them 40 years or so later. If you have a toy that you want to preserve that for 40 years, what would you do?” Regards, Tarek Hoteit > On Mar 8, 2023, at 12:43 PM, Sellam Abraham via cctalk > wrote: > > On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 12:40 PM Will Cooke via cctalk > wrote: > >> Everyone on this list is going to die sometime. Some sooner than later. >> We need young people if all or any part of this history is going to be >> preserved past us. All of the "museum" fiascos that have been covered here >> show how easily it is lost. But as Tarek mentioned in his follow up, very >> few young people are interested. So, how do we get them interested? I >> can't think of a better idea than asking one of the few that IS >> interested. Can you? >> > > But ask them what exactly? > > Sellam
[cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers
On 3/8/2023 3:18 PM, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 11:54 AM Tarek Hoteit via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: I don’t think there is a strict definition of what a home computer is. One can argue Plato is one. Another might say Atari 2600. Someone can argue that the Altair is the first. A very good argument could be made that it was the LINC (1962) ==> https://www.digibarn.com/collections/systems/linc/ieee-article.htm At least one of the systems built ended up in the actual home of one of the engineers: quite possibly the first "home" computer. I think the real argument is: Does it have to be a computer made for home use or just any computer that found it's way into a home. I had some good sized iron in my home in the early 80's. bill
[cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers
Technically true. However, if I would reference the book “The Friendly Orange Glow” on the history of Plato, there is a chapter I recall in which the author mentioned someone taking a terminal to their home Regards, Tarek Hoteit > On Mar 8, 2023, at 12:56 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk > wrote: > > >> On 3/8/2023 2:54 PM, Tarek Hoteit via cctalk wrote: >> I don’t think there is a strict definition of what a home computer is. One >> can argue Plato is one. > > There must be a Plato I don't know about. The one I saw when I was in IT at > > West Point was bigger than a desk. Hardly what would have passed for a home > > computer. (Although it was only a few years later when I had an Apollo in my > > home!! :-) It was almost as big. > > > bill > >
[cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers
We can get them excited by thinking like them - videos (narrated by their kind not us) and we are in the background. We play old school games and make fun of the 8bit sounds in front of them. Some might get curious and say “why does this sound like that?” Or “why this graphic looks so different”. Then we begin a short story “once upon a time …” but end it in 10 minute or less. Or, jokes aside, we consult with Steve’s middle schooler cause, honesty, I have not heard of any other person at that age truly interested. Regards, Tarek Hoteit > On Mar 8, 2023, at 12:46 PM, Will Cooke via cctalk > wrote: > > > >> On 03/08/2023 2:42 PM CST Sellam Abraham via cctalk >> wrote: >> >> >> On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 12:40 PM Will Cooke via cctalk >> wrote: > So, how do we get them interested? I >>> can't think of a better idea than asking one of the few that IS >>> interested. Can you? >> >> But ask them what exactly? >> >> Sellam > > Some variation of "what is it that makes this interesting to you?"
[cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers
On 3/8/2023 2:54 PM, Tarek Hoteit via cctalk wrote: I don’t think there is a strict definition of what a home computer is. One can argue Plato is one. There must be a Plato I don't know about. The one I saw when I was in IT at West Point was bigger than a desk. Hardly what would have passed for a home computer. (Although it was only a few years later when I had an Apollo in my home!! :-) It was almost as big. bill
[cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers
I'd invite any one here to docent the museum for a day, it will provide a lot of perspective as to the general public view on computer history. I learned quickly you can't fire\hose people, kids in particular with a lot of factoids. Most people just want to walk around and look, they don't need a lesson or want to be told anything. On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 3:46 PM Will Cooke via cctalk wrote: > > > > On 03/08/2023 2:42 PM CST Sellam Abraham via cctalk < > cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > > On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 12:40 PM Will Cooke via cctalk < > cctalk@classiccmp.org> > > wrote: > So, how do we get them interested? I > > > can't think of a better idea than asking one of the few that IS > > > interested. Can you? > > > > But ask them what exactly? > > > > Sellam > > Some variation of "what is it that makes this interesting to you?" >
[cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers
That is great news. I think these kids saw the 90s as NES (Mario), Sega (Sonic), and their dads playing either Leisure Suite Larry and later Doom on the PC. I think we need to find a way to pull them to this news group, rather than them pulling us to their Discord chats, and then all of us would have to behave with the kids around. :) Regards, Tarek Hoteit > On Mar 8, 2023, at 12:46 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk > wrote: > > Running museum (kennettclassic.com) I meet with kids daily who are very > interested in computing history. They all seem to know the Youtubers who > specialize in vintage gaming and computing. These youtube channels are not > always historically accurate but it's a start. Most younger people > gravitate to systems made after 1990. They're not as interested in things > they can't identify with. It's hard to just jump in. Computers are not > like cars. Computers from 50 years ago are fundamentally different. Cars > that are 50 years old can still drive the highways > b > >> On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 3:43 PM Sellam Abraham via cctalk < >> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: >> >> On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 12:40 PM Will Cooke via cctalk < >> cctalk@classiccmp.org> >> wrote: >> >>> Everyone on this list is going to die sometime. Some sooner than later. >>> We need young people if all or any part of this history is going to be >>> preserved past us. All of the "museum" fiascos that have been covered >> here >>> show how easily it is lost. But as Tarek mentioned in his follow up, >> very >>> few young people are interested. So, how do we get them interested? I >>> can't think of a better idea than asking one of the few that IS >>> interested. Can you? >>> >> >> But ask them what exactly? >> >> Sellam >>
[cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers
Running museum (kennettclassic.com) I meet with kids daily who are very interested in computing history. They all seem to know the Youtubers who specialize in vintage gaming and computing. These youtube channels are not always historically accurate but it's a start. Most younger people gravitate to systems made after 1990. They're not as interested in things they can't identify with. It's hard to just jump in. Computers are not like cars. Computers from 50 years ago are fundamentally different. Cars that are 50 years old can still drive the highways b On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 3:43 PM Sellam Abraham via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 12:40 PM Will Cooke via cctalk < > cctalk@classiccmp.org> > wrote: > > > Everyone on this list is going to die sometime. Some sooner than later. > > We need young people if all or any part of this history is going to be > > preserved past us. All of the "museum" fiascos that have been covered > here > > show how easily it is lost. But as Tarek mentioned in his follow up, > very > > few young people are interested. So, how do we get them interested? I > > can't think of a better idea than asking one of the few that IS > > interested. Can you? > > > > But ask them what exactly? > > Sellam >
[cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers
> On 03/08/2023 2:42 PM CST Sellam Abraham via cctalk > wrote: > > > On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 12:40 PM Will Cooke via cctalk > wrote: So, how do we get them interested? I > > can't think of a better idea than asking one of the few that IS > > interested. Can you? > > But ask them what exactly? > > Sellam Some variation of "what is it that makes this interesting to you?"
[cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers
On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 12:40 PM Will Cooke via cctalk wrote: > Everyone on this list is going to die sometime. Some sooner than later. > We need young people if all or any part of this history is going to be > preserved past us. All of the "museum" fiascos that have been covered here > show how easily it is lost. But as Tarek mentioned in his follow up, very > few young people are interested. So, how do we get them interested? I > can't think of a better idea than asking one of the few that IS > interested. Can you? > But ask them what exactly? Sellam
[cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers
Since we are never going to completely agree on "First", "computer", "home computer", "home computing", (using a a terminal with a remote computer) might I suggest the works of Edmund Berkeley. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geniac https://www.instructables.com/GENIAC-Electric-Brain-Replica/ Full text of "Giant Brains, or, Machines That Think" https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.233530 https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/68991 OB_tangent: I remember that Jim Warren said "machinew WHO think" On the issue of "first", many authors on the topic have personal "requirements" for it to be considered. (such as storage, video display, keyboard, HDD, etc.) "It wasn't REALLY a computer, unless it had ..." In MOST cases, they will declare the "first" to be one generation before they got one. CP/M users often choose Altair; People who started in PC will often pick CP/M; people who started with Windoze might pick DOS, Mac users declare Apple2, etc. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com
[cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers
> On 03/08/2023 2:21 PM CST Sellam Abraham via cctalk > wrote: > > > On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 11:55 AM Will Cooke via cctalk > wrote: > > > > > > On 03/08/2023 11:59 AM CST Tarek Hoteit via cctalk < > > cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > > We probably need to get more advice from her on what we all, old-school > > timers, should do to help keep the legacy going on ! > > > > > > Regards, > > > Tarek Hoteit > > That statement may be the most important one on this list in a long, long > > time. > > Will > > Huh? That makes less than zero sense. > > We're already doing what we're doing. She should be asking US what SHE > should do to preserve the legacy we've carried on to her and her generation. > > I mean, is anyone actually serious about asking Greta how to save the > planet? > > Don't abdicate your responsibilities as an experienced adult over to > inherently naive children. > > Sellam Everyone on this list is going to die sometime. Some sooner than later. We need young people if all or any part of this history is going to be preserved past us. All of the "museum" fiascos that have been covered here show how easily it is lost. But as Tarek mentioned in his follow up, very few young people are interested. So, how do we get them interested? I can't think of a better idea than asking one of the few that IS interested. Can you? Will
[cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers
On 2023-03-08 2:13 p.m., Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: There is ample evidence of people doing personal computing before the microprocessor was invented. There was a whole terminal/time sharing scene in the late 60s, plus people who did personal computung by using the machine at a school, work, or library. There were also people whonowned surplussed minicomputers who used them at home. I think you should consider mentioning this somehow. Really, your video is about personal computers with a microprocessor installed. A person from the 70s would not look at computing the same as we do today. The larger consumer of "home computers" were doing engineering type work, not so much playing games. Even the apple/tandy/commodore users. Bill Not to mention people who designed and built their own processors, I recall Byte had them as a feature article in an issue with a memorable front cover picture of a cascade small boards joined by jumper wire flowing to the floor off a table, that was apparently a working computer. Paul.
[cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers
THe LGP-30 was to arguably the first personal electronic (non analog) computer, my opinion, but it covers all of the bases as I see them. A relatively small stand alone real time general purpose electronic computer that one person could operate. Bill On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 3:22 PM Sellam Abraham via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 11:55 AM Will Cooke via cctalk < > cctalk@classiccmp.org> > wrote: > > > > > > On 03/08/2023 11:59 AM CST Tarek Hoteit via cctalk < > > cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > > > > We probably need to get more advice from her on what we all, old-school > > timers, should do to help keep the legacy going on ! > > > > > > Regards, > > > Tarek Hoteit > > > > > > > That statement may be the most important one on this list in a long, long > > time. > > > > Will > > > > Huh? That makes less than zero sense. > > We're already doing what we're doing. She should be asking US what SHE > should do to preserve the legacy we've carried on to her and her > generation. > > I mean, is anyone actually serious about asking Greta how to save the > planet? > > Don't abdicate your responsibilities as an experienced adult over to > inherently naive children. > > Sellam >
[cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers
On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 11:55 AM Will Cooke via cctalk wrote: > > > On 03/08/2023 11:59 AM CST Tarek Hoteit via cctalk < > cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > We probably need to get more advice from her on what we all, old-school > timers, should do to help keep the legacy going on ! > > > > Regards, > > Tarek Hoteit > > > > That statement may be the most important one on this list in a long, long > time. > > Will > Huh? That makes less than zero sense. We're already doing what we're doing. She should be asking US what SHE should do to preserve the legacy we've carried on to her and her generation. I mean, is anyone actually serious about asking Greta how to save the planet? Don't abdicate your responsibilities as an experienced adult over to inherently naive children. Sellam
[cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers
Thank you, Bill! When Steve posted the video about the history of computers, I thought something like “cool to see another video” But when he mentioned a middle schooler helping, that changed the entire perspective for me. I am close to 50. I have seen and been part of vintage and classic computing. I still enjoy them and my kids, who are now 19 and 17, have heard me talking a lot about computing. Yet, they had no curiosity on any of those. “It is a dad’s thing”, they would say. Same thing happened with my siblings at a younger age. I am a Gen X. My two siblings are one a Gen X and another a Gen Y. My kids are a Gen Z. No one in my family had any interests. Then I get frustrated when I hear my nieces, nephews or even my kids saying “ChatGpt is so cool” or “TikTok does magic with the videos” or “Instagram has these cool filters.” Yet, they have no clue about everything or anything in tech that led to those creations. I try to bring back the topics of bits, bytes, ram, cpu, inventions in tech. They respond with nothing but a blank-I-am-bored face. None of these younger generation are even curious about the Ataris, the Vectrex, the old machines, or even the legacy books that is on our shelves. Then I see the message from Steve about his middle schooler. That is amazing. That is awesome! I rarely type on this newsgroup or any newsgroup. Steve’s post (and subsequent update) about his middle schooler being curious and is helping with the video has made my day! I hope it did for all other fellow old-timers! Regards, Tarek Hoteit > On Mar 8, 2023, at 11:55 AM, wrco...@wrcooke.net wrote: > > > >>> On 03/08/2023 11:59 AM CST Tarek Hoteit via cctalk >>> wrote: >>> >> >> We probably need to get more advice from her on what we all, old-school >> timers, should do to help keep the legacy going on ! >> >> Regards, >> Tarek Hoteit >> > > That statement may be the most important one on this list in a long, long > time. > > Will
[cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers
On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 11:54 AM Tarek Hoteit via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > I don’t think there is a strict definition of what a home computer is. One > can argue Plato is one. Another might say Atari 2600. Someone can argue > that the Altair is the first. A very good argument could be made that it was the LINC (1962) ==> https://www.digibarn.com/collections/systems/linc/ieee-article.htm At least one of the systems built ended up in the actual home of one of the engineers: quite possibly the first "home" computer. Sellam
[cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers
On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 11:54 AM Tarek Hoteit via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > I don’t think there is a strict definition of what a home computer is. One > can argue Plato is one. Another might say Atari 2600. Someone can argue > that the Altair is the first. It is unfair to make the author of the video > be 100% perfect because it is too Ha! Are you kidding, Tarek? This is the Classic Computers Mailing List. Pedantic arguments are a mandatory feature here :D > technical / debatable for the video: is it the microprocessor first? Or is > it usage? Home vs, say, the Homebrew club, vs Plato terminals etc. I > personally think that the video is great as is, regardless of the consensus > on what truly is a home computer and what truly its evolution (eg different > books are not even consistent in their story telling). Maybe, this > discussion leads to more videos by Steve and his daughter, or maybe it is > time now that middle schoolers can tell us “what do THEY think is a home or > a personal computer”. > All things considered, I agree that it's a good video. Sellam
[cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers
On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 11:49 AM Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: > Don't forget that Heathkit had analog home computer kits in the 50's and > 60's > > > https://www.nutsvolts.com/magazine/article/restoring-the-heathkit-es-400-computer > > https://s3data.computerhistory.org/brochures/heath.analog.1956.102646297.pdf > https://www.nutsvolts.com/magazine/article/May2016_Heathkit_Restoration > > To say nothing of the Digi-Comp 1, the MINIVAC 601/6010, the GENIAC/BRAINIAC, and of course, SIMON (1950-51). Sellam > > On 3/8/2023 1:39 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > > >> On Mar 8, 2023, at 2:37 PM, < > dave.g4...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> > >> ... > >> Computer Games are almost as old as (Turing Complete) Computers. Alan > Turing > >> insisted that the Manchester/Ferranti MK1 had a Random Number generator. > >> Christopher Strachey wrote a tic-tac-toe (noughts and crosses to the > >> English) program which displayed its output in patterns on the MK1 > screen. > >> In 1951 he wrote a checkers/draughts program for the Mk1. > >> He also wrote the "love letters" program. > > Along those lines, I was amused to see a letter to the editor a few days > ago about ChatGPT, which pointed out that it's basically an overgrown > version of the famous ELIZA program from the 1960s. > > > > paul > > > >
[cctalk] Re: Age of Tape Formats?
Tom, What an excellent bibliography for the topic. Thank you. Sellam On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 11:45 AM Tom Gardner via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > If you want authoritative sources I highly recommend: > > *IBM J. RES. DEVELOP. • VOL. 25 • NO. 5 • SEPTEMBER 1981, has an > article “Innovations in the Design of Magnetic Tape Subsystems” > > *IBM Journal of Research and Development Vol. 47, No. 4, July 2003 > has an article “Fifty years of IBM innovation with information storage on > magnetic tape” > > *Magnetic Recording, the First 100 Years, Daniel et al, Chapter > 17, Data Storage On Tape > > *Magnetic Recording, Vol II: Computer Data Storage, Mee et al, > Chapter 4 Data Storage > > *The Complete Handbook of Magnetic Recording, Jorgensen, Parts 4 > and 5 which deal with tape materials and transports > > The first ref above gives the date of IBM’s shipment of 6250 bpi as 1973, > AFAIK that became the industry standard for ½ r-t-r tape > > I have all of the above in my library and might be able to help u off line > if you have specific questions. > > > > I’ve worked on tape articles in Wikipedia and they are for the most part > pretty good. If u find any errors or omissions I hope u will update > > > > If you are willing and able to share I’d like to see yr results > > > > Good luck > > > > Tom > > > > > > -Original Message- > From: Zane Healy [mailto:heal...@avanthar.com] > Sent: Tuesday, March 07, 2023 5:05 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: [cctalk] Age of Tape Formats? > > > > I�m working on a project, and I need to know the age of various tape > formats. For example when were 6250bpi 700� 9-Track tapes or DC600A > cartridges introduced? Is there any good resource online that documents > this? Wikipedia is of some help, but the older you go, the spottier it is. > > > > Zane > > > > > > > >
[cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers
> On 03/08/2023 11:59 AM CST Tarek Hoteit via cctalk > wrote: > > We probably need to get more advice from her on what we all, old-school > timers, should do to help keep the legacy going on ! > > Regards, > Tarek Hoteit > That statement may be the most important one on this list in a long, long time. Will
[cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers
I don’t think there is a strict definition of what a home computer is. One can argue Plato is one. Another might say Atari 2600. Someone can argue that the Altair is the first. It is unfair to make the author of the video be 100% perfect because it is too technical / debatable for the video: is it the microprocessor first? Or is it usage? Home vs, say, the Homebrew club, vs Plato terminals etc. I personally think that the video is great as is, regardless of the consensus on what truly is a home computer and what truly its evolution (eg different books are not even consistent in their story telling). Maybe, this discussion leads to more videos by Steve and his daughter, or maybe it is time now that middle schoolers can tell us “what do THEY think is a home or a personal computer”. Regards, Tarek Hoteit > On Mar 8, 2023, at 11:44 AM, Bill Degnan via cctalk > wrote: > > SO - To return to the video feedback - I think the author should comment on > the evolution of what "Home Computing" is/was, the evolution in > demographics of the home computer user, the cost, etc. Needs perspective > Bill > >> On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 2:41 PM Bill Degnan wrote: >> >> My point was that "home computing" does not equal playing computer games >> at home. That is something that evolved into the early 90's.Games were >> much less of a thing in home computing of the 70's. THere are always >> exceptions, there are always variations. It's not that games weren't there >> either, it's just that economically if you wanted to play games in the 70;s >> you bought a console or went to the arcade. Home computer games were >> inferior in the earliest versions >> b >> >> On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 2:37 PM Dave Wade G4UGM via cctalk < >> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: >> -Original Message- From: Paul Koning via cctalk Sent: Wednesday, March 8, 2023 7:25 PM To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Cc: Paul Koning Subject: [cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers > On Mar 8, 2023, at 2:13 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk >>> wrote: > > There is ample evidence of people doing personal computing before the > microprocessor was invented. There was a whole terminal/time sharing > scene in the late 60s, plus people who did personal computung by using > the machine at a school, work, or library. There were also people > whonowned surplussed minicomputers who used them at home. I think you > should consider mentioning this somehow. > > Really, your video is about personal computers with a microprocessor > installed. > > A person from the 70s would not look at computing the same as we do >>> today. > The larger consumer of "home computers" were doing engineering type > work, not so much playing games. Even the apple/tandy/commodore >>> users. Conversely, computer games predates home computers by a decade or so; >>> the PLATO system is a major source of early games, documented in several >>> places. >>> >>> Computer Games are almost as old as (Turing Complete) Computers. Alan >>> Turing >>> insisted that the Manchester/Ferranti MK1 had a Random Number generator. >>> Christopher Strachey wrote a tic-tac-toe (noughts and crosses to the >>> English) program which displayed its output in patterns on the MK1 screen. >>> In 1951 he wrote a checkers/draughts program for the Mk1. >>> He also wrote the "love letters" program. >>> .. Turing was thinking about Chess but he couldn't fit it in the MK1 >>> paul >>> >>> Dave >>> >>>
[cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers
and kenbak was not the first "home computer" when will that one die I don't know. ..NRI 832 pre-dates by at least 6 months :-) On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 2:49 PM Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: > Don't forget that Heathkit had analog home computer kits in the 50's and > 60's > > > https://www.nutsvolts.com/magazine/article/restoring-the-heathkit-es-400-computer > > https://s3data.computerhistory.org/brochures/heath.analog.1956.102646297.pdf > https://www.nutsvolts.com/magazine/article/May2016_Heathkit_Restoration > > > > On 3/8/2023 1:39 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > > >> On Mar 8, 2023, at 2:37 PM, < > dave.g4...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> > >> ... > >> Computer Games are almost as old as (Turing Complete) Computers. Alan > Turing > >> insisted that the Manchester/Ferranti MK1 had a Random Number generator. > >> Christopher Strachey wrote a tic-tac-toe (noughts and crosses to the > >> English) program which displayed its output in patterns on the MK1 > screen. > >> In 1951 he wrote a checkers/draughts program for the Mk1. > >> He also wrote the "love letters" program. > > Along those lines, I was amused to see a letter to the editor a few days > ago about ChatGPT, which pointed out that it's basically an overgrown > version of the famous ELIZA program from the 1960s. > > > > paul > > > >
[cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers
Don't forget that Heathkit had analog home computer kits in the 50's and 60's https://www.nutsvolts.com/magazine/article/restoring-the-heathkit-es-400-computer https://s3data.computerhistory.org/brochures/heath.analog.1956.102646297.pdf https://www.nutsvolts.com/magazine/article/May2016_Heathkit_Restoration On 3/8/2023 1:39 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: On Mar 8, 2023, at 2:37 PM, wrote: ... Computer Games are almost as old as (Turing Complete) Computers. Alan Turing insisted that the Manchester/Ferranti MK1 had a Random Number generator. Christopher Strachey wrote a tic-tac-toe (noughts and crosses to the English) program which displayed its output in patterns on the MK1 screen. In 1951 he wrote a checkers/draughts program for the Mk1. He also wrote the "love letters" program. Along those lines, I was amused to see a letter to the editor a few days ago about ChatGPT, which pointed out that it's basically an overgrown version of the famous ELIZA program from the 1960s. paul
[cctalk] Re: Age of Tape Formats?
If you want authoritative sources I highly recommend: *IBM J. RES. DEVELOP. • VOL. 25 • NO. 5 • SEPTEMBER 1981, has an article “Innovations in the Design of Magnetic Tape Subsystems” *IBM Journal of Research and Development Vol. 47, No. 4, July 2003 has an article “Fifty years of IBM innovation with information storage on magnetic tape” *Magnetic Recording, the First 100 Years, Daniel et al, Chapter 17, Data Storage On Tape *Magnetic Recording, Vol II: Computer Data Storage, Mee et al, Chapter 4 Data Storage *The Complete Handbook of Magnetic Recording, Jorgensen, Parts 4 and 5 which deal with tape materials and transports The first ref above gives the date of IBM’s shipment of 6250 bpi as 1973, AFAIK that became the industry standard for ½ r-t-r tape I have all of the above in my library and might be able to help u off line if you have specific questions. I’ve worked on tape articles in Wikipedia and they are for the most part pretty good. If u find any errors or omissions I hope u will update If you are willing and able to share I’d like to see yr results Good luck Tom -Original Message- From: Zane Healy [mailto:heal...@avanthar.com] Sent: Tuesday, March 07, 2023 5:05 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: [cctalk] Age of Tape Formats? I�m working on a project, and I need to know the age of various tape formats. For example when were 6250bpi 700� 9-Track tapes or DC600A cartridges introduced? Is there any good resource online that documents this? Wikipedia is of some help, but the older you go, the spottier it is. Zane
[cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers
SO - To return to the video feedback - I think the author should comment on the evolution of what "Home Computing" is/was, the evolution in demographics of the home computer user, the cost, etc. Needs perspective Bill On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 2:41 PM Bill Degnan wrote: > My point was that "home computing" does not equal playing computer games > at home. That is something that evolved into the early 90's.Games were > much less of a thing in home computing of the 70's. THere are always > exceptions, there are always variations. It's not that games weren't there > either, it's just that economically if you wanted to play games in the 70;s > you bought a console or went to the arcade. Home computer games were > inferior in the earliest versions > b > > On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 2:37 PM Dave Wade G4UGM via cctalk < > cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> > -Original Message- >> > From: Paul Koning via cctalk >> > Sent: Wednesday, March 8, 2023 7:25 PM >> > To: cctalk@classiccmp.org >> > Cc: Paul Koning >> > Subject: [cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers >> > >> > >> > > On Mar 8, 2023, at 2:13 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk >> >> > wrote: >> > > >> > > There is ample evidence of people doing personal computing before the >> > > microprocessor was invented. There was a whole terminal/time sharing >> > > scene in the late 60s, plus people who did personal computung by using >> > > the machine at a school, work, or library. There were also people >> > > whonowned surplussed minicomputers who used them at home. I think you >> > > should consider mentioning this somehow. >> > > >> > > Really, your video is about personal computers with a microprocessor >> > > installed. >> > > >> > > A person from the 70s would not look at computing the same as we do >> today. >> > > The larger consumer of "home computers" were doing engineering type >> > > work, not so much playing games. Even the apple/tandy/commodore >> users. >> > >> > Conversely, computer games predates home computers by a decade or so; >> the >> > PLATO system is a major source of early games, documented in several >> places. >> >> Computer Games are almost as old as (Turing Complete) Computers. Alan >> Turing >> insisted that the Manchester/Ferranti MK1 had a Random Number generator. >> Christopher Strachey wrote a tic-tac-toe (noughts and crosses to the >> English) program which displayed its output in patterns on the MK1 screen. >> In 1951 he wrote a checkers/draughts program for the Mk1. >> He also wrote the "love letters" program. >> .. Turing was thinking about Chess but he couldn't fit it in the MK1 >> >> > >> > paul >> >> Dave >> >>
[cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers
My point was that "home computing" does not equal playing computer games at home. That is something that evolved into the early 90's.Games were much less of a thing in home computing of the 70's. THere are always exceptions, there are always variations. It's not that games weren't there either, it's just that economically if you wanted to play games in the 70;s you bought a console or went to the arcade. Home computer games were inferior in the earliest versions b On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 2:37 PM Dave Wade G4UGM via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > > -Original Message- > > From: Paul Koning via cctalk > > Sent: Wednesday, March 8, 2023 7:25 PM > > To: cctalk@classiccmp.org > > Cc: Paul Koning > > Subject: [cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers > > > > > > > On Mar 8, 2023, at 2:13 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk > > > wrote: > > > > > > There is ample evidence of people doing personal computing before the > > > microprocessor was invented. There was a whole terminal/time sharing > > > scene in the late 60s, plus people who did personal computung by using > > > the machine at a school, work, or library. There were also people > > > whonowned surplussed minicomputers who used them at home. I think you > > > should consider mentioning this somehow. > > > > > > Really, your video is about personal computers with a microprocessor > > > installed. > > > > > > A person from the 70s would not look at computing the same as we do > today. > > > The larger consumer of "home computers" were doing engineering type > > > work, not so much playing games. Even the apple/tandy/commodore users. > > > > Conversely, computer games predates home computers by a decade or so; the > > PLATO system is a major source of early games, documented in several > places. > > Computer Games are almost as old as (Turing Complete) Computers. Alan > Turing > insisted that the Manchester/Ferranti MK1 had a Random Number generator. > Christopher Strachey wrote a tic-tac-toe (noughts and crosses to the > English) program which displayed its output in patterns on the MK1 screen. > In 1951 he wrote a checkers/draughts program for the Mk1. > He also wrote the "love letters" program. > .. Turing was thinking about Chess but he couldn't fit it in the MK1 > > > > > paul > > Dave > >
[cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers
> On Mar 8, 2023, at 2:37 PM, > wrote: > > ... > Computer Games are almost as old as (Turing Complete) Computers. Alan Turing > insisted that the Manchester/Ferranti MK1 had a Random Number generator. > Christopher Strachey wrote a tic-tac-toe (noughts and crosses to the > English) program which displayed its output in patterns on the MK1 screen. > In 1951 he wrote a checkers/draughts program for the Mk1. > He also wrote the "love letters" program. Along those lines, I was amused to see a letter to the editor a few days ago about ChatGPT, which pointed out that it's basically an overgrown version of the famous ELIZA program from the 1960s. paul
[cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers
> -Original Message- > From: Paul Koning via cctalk > Sent: Wednesday, March 8, 2023 7:25 PM > To: cctalk@classiccmp.org > Cc: Paul Koning > Subject: [cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers > > > > On Mar 8, 2023, at 2:13 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk > wrote: > > > > There is ample evidence of people doing personal computing before the > > microprocessor was invented. There was a whole terminal/time sharing > > scene in the late 60s, plus people who did personal computung by using > > the machine at a school, work, or library. There were also people > > whonowned surplussed minicomputers who used them at home. I think you > > should consider mentioning this somehow. > > > > Really, your video is about personal computers with a microprocessor > > installed. > > > > A person from the 70s would not look at computing the same as we do today. > > The larger consumer of "home computers" were doing engineering type > > work, not so much playing games. Even the apple/tandy/commodore users. > > Conversely, computer games predates home computers by a decade or so; the > PLATO system is a major source of early games, documented in several places. Computer Games are almost as old as (Turing Complete) Computers. Alan Turing insisted that the Manchester/Ferranti MK1 had a Random Number generator. Christopher Strachey wrote a tic-tac-toe (noughts and crosses to the English) program which displayed its output in patterns on the MK1 screen. In 1951 he wrote a checkers/draughts program for the Mk1. He also wrote the "love letters" program. .. Turing was thinking about Chess but he couldn't fit it in the MK1 > > paul Dave
[cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers
> On Mar 8, 2023, at 2:13 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk > wrote: > > There is ample evidence of people doing personal computing before the > microprocessor was invented. There was a whole terminal/time sharing scene > in the late 60s, plus people who did personal computung by using the > machine at a school, work, or library. There were also people whonowned > surplussed minicomputers who used them at home. I think you should > consider mentioning this somehow. > > Really, your video is about personal computers with a microprocessor > installed. > > A person from the 70s would not look at computing the same as we do today. > The larger consumer of "home computers" were doing engineering type work, > not so much playing games. Even the apple/tandy/commodore users. Conversely, computer games predates home computers by a decade or so; the PLATO system is a major source of early games, documented in several places. paul
[cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers
There is ample evidence of people doing personal computing before the
microprocessor was invented. There was a whole terminal/time sharing scene
in the late 60s, plus people who did personal computung by using the
machine at a school, work, or library. There were also people whonowned
surplussed minicomputers who used them at home. I think you should
consider mentioning this somehow.
Really, your video is about personal computers with a microprocessor
installed.
A person from the 70s would not look at computing the same as we do today.
The larger consumer of "home computers" were doing engineering type work,
not so much playing games. Even the apple/tandy/commodore users.
Bill
On Wed, Mar 8, 2023, 1:43 PM Tarek Hoteit via cctalk
wrote:
> Yes. I second that. Having the daughter as a narrator is perfect. No
> offense, Steve.
>
> Regards,
> Tarek Hoteit
>
> > On Mar 8, 2023, at 10:09 AM, W2HX via cctalk
> wrote:
> >
> > I loved it. I would only suggest a human narrator like your daughter
> would be great. But I don't like the computer generated narration (I am
> right about the computer narrator, aren't I?).
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Steve Lewis via cctalk
> > Sent: Wednesday, March 8, 2023 11:54 AM
> > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <
> cctalk@classiccmp.org>
> > Cc: Steve Lewis
> > Subject: [cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers
> >
> > Adrian,
> >
> >> There's a long tail to the video with no video and blank audio. After
> >> a while, a section of audio from the main flow is repeated.
> >
> > Thanks, yeah that was a left over to compare an alternate ending. One
> > idea is to make it such that the video can "loop" seamlessly for
> continuous
> > play, at say a museum. And the plan is to put it under Creative Commons
> > since I'm told that's the best way to help ensure it can be re-used
> without question.
> >
> > The plan was to keep it to 10min - at one point we had it up to 30min!!
> > Minus the inadvertent excess, it'll be exactly 15min. A part2 might
> focus more on the Z80 and 6502 lines themselves, or I was thinking a kind
> of bio on the actual engineers involved ("the names and faces").
> >
> > Canada is represented also :) And I just recalled, the "TK-80"
> (training kit Z80 board) is also a "made in Japan" item (and led to the
> PC-8001 in '79), it probably needs a flag (and I wanted to show a France
> flag for the Micral-N -- but in the effort to keep it closer to 10min, we
> just couldn't cover every item to keep a reasonable tempo). So then we
> debated to not have popup flags at all, but I felt it was important to note
> that there was international involvement here.
> >
> > -Steve
> >
> >
> >
> >> On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 5:55 AM Adrian Godwin via cctalk <
> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
> >>
> >> Not really technical, but a couple of presentation points :
> >>
> >> There's a long tail to the video with no video and blank audio. After
> >> a while, a section of audio from the main flow is repeated.
> >>
> >> It seems to be common to consider Youtube videos more approachable if
> >> they're up to about 10 minutes long. You might benefit by splitting it
> >> into
> >> 2 parts.
> >>
> >> And even further off topic .. I see that the pictorial guide includes
> >> machines from GB and Japan (and I think a Sharp is mentioned in the
> >> description). Although GB was heavily influenced by USA machines it
> >> did have it's own distinct history and so, I think, did Japan. Russia
> >> also had clones of well known machines and their own designs. Did any
> >> other countries have a history that was more complex than picking the
> >> best known parts of the international trade ?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 11:24 AM Steve Lewis via cctalk <
> >> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Greetings,
> >>>
> >>> We're making final touches on a short history-video we've been
> >>> making
> >> about
> >>> home computers (my daughter, in middle school, has been helping).
> >>>
> >>> If anyone has time/interest to do a review, the draft listing is here:
> >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9mgSVJZoFc
> >>>
> >>> Unless anyone spots a gross technical error, we're hoping to render
> >>> the final sometime this weekend or sometime this month.
> >>>
> >>> Thanks,
> >>> Steve
> >>>
> >>
>
[cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers
Very informative and enjoyable. I echo the narration sentiment, maybe a
little more life in the voice would hold attention.
My only other comment is some of the information pictures go by pretty
quickly. It'd be neat even in a slower slideshow version so I could take
the time to read the ads and pictures :-) Of course that's coming from an
enthusiast perspective. Regular viewer runtime suggestions are good (your
10-15m YouTube algorithm).
On Wed, Mar 8, 2023, 12:43 PM Tarek Hoteit via cctalk
wrote:
> Yes. I second that. Having the daughter as a narrator is perfect. No
> offense, Steve.
>
> Regards,
> Tarek Hoteit
>
> > On Mar 8, 2023, at 10:09 AM, W2HX via cctalk
> wrote:
> >
> > I loved it. I would only suggest a human narrator like your daughter
> would be great. But I don't like the computer generated narration (I am
> right about the computer narrator, aren't I?).
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Steve Lewis via cctalk
> > Sent: Wednesday, March 8, 2023 11:54 AM
> > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <
> cctalk@classiccmp.org>
> > Cc: Steve Lewis
> > Subject: [cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers
> >
> > Adrian,
> >
> >> There's a long tail to the video with no video and blank audio. After
> >> a while, a section of audio from the main flow is repeated.
> >
> > Thanks, yeah that was a left over to compare an alternate ending. One
> > idea is to make it such that the video can "loop" seamlessly for
> continuous
> > play, at say a museum. And the plan is to put it under Creative Commons
> > since I'm told that's the best way to help ensure it can be re-used
> without question.
> >
> > The plan was to keep it to 10min - at one point we had it up to 30min!!
> > Minus the inadvertent excess, it'll be exactly 15min. A part2 might
> focus more on the Z80 and 6502 lines themselves, or I was thinking a kind
> of bio on the actual engineers involved ("the names and faces").
> >
> > Canada is represented also :) And I just recalled, the "TK-80"
> (training kit Z80 board) is also a "made in Japan" item (and led to the
> PC-8001 in '79), it probably needs a flag (and I wanted to show a France
> flag for the Micral-N -- but in the effort to keep it closer to 10min, we
> just couldn't cover every item to keep a reasonable tempo). So then we
> debated to not have popup flags at all, but I felt it was important to note
> that there was international involvement here.
> >
> > -Steve
> >
> >
> >
> >> On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 5:55 AM Adrian Godwin via cctalk <
> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
> >>
> >> Not really technical, but a couple of presentation points :
> >>
> >> There's a long tail to the video with no video and blank audio. After
> >> a while, a section of audio from the main flow is repeated.
> >>
> >> It seems to be common to consider Youtube videos more approachable if
> >> they're up to about 10 minutes long. You might benefit by splitting it
> >> into
> >> 2 parts.
> >>
> >> And even further off topic .. I see that the pictorial guide includes
> >> machines from GB and Japan (and I think a Sharp is mentioned in the
> >> description). Although GB was heavily influenced by USA machines it
> >> did have it's own distinct history and so, I think, did Japan. Russia
> >> also had clones of well known machines and their own designs. Did any
> >> other countries have a history that was more complex than picking the
> >> best known parts of the international trade ?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 11:24 AM Steve Lewis via cctalk <
> >> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Greetings,
> >>>
> >>> We're making final touches on a short history-video we've been
> >>> making
> >> about
> >>> home computers (my daughter, in middle school, has been helping).
> >>>
> >>> If anyone has time/interest to do a review, the draft listing is here:
> >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9mgSVJZoFc
> >>>
> >>> Unless anyone spots a gross technical error, we're hoping to render
> >>> the final sometime this weekend or sometime this month.
> >>>
> >>> Thanks,
> >>> Steve
> >>>
> >>
>
[cctalk] Re: Age of Tape Formats?
> Wow! I'd love to see the 1971 vintage GCR tape controller, it must > have been the size of a 360 CPU! We had a GCR controller from > Storage Tech. in 1982 or so that was the same size as a PDP 11/44 > large cabinet. CDC Keystone drives (92185) had it integrated into > the 680x controller micro, which I thought was pretty amazing. The IBM history pages seem to say that the initial 3420 offerings were 1600, in 1971, and that later models added GCR in 1973. The control unit, 3803, was similarly sized to the 3420 drive, iirc a bit shorter, but very roughly the same occupied square footage. https://www.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhibits/storage/storage_3420.html De
[cctalk] Re: Using Flashfloppies on Professional 350 and 380--SOLVED
"Holy smokes. Poking around on these disk images it looks like these system have a FULL DECNET FILE SERVER as well." Are you referring to DECnet FAL on the PRO, or the little known PRO Cluster software? -- Lee K. Gleason N5ZMR Control-G Consultants lee.glea...@comcast.net
[cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers
Yes. I second that. Having the daughter as a narrator is perfect. No offense,
Steve.
Regards,
Tarek Hoteit
> On Mar 8, 2023, at 10:09 AM, W2HX via cctalk wrote:
>
> I loved it. I would only suggest a human narrator like your daughter would
> be great. But I don't like the computer generated narration (I am right about
> the computer narrator, aren't I?).
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Steve Lewis via cctalk
> Sent: Wednesday, March 8, 2023 11:54 AM
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> Cc: Steve Lewis
> Subject: [cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers
>
> Adrian,
>
>> There's a long tail to the video with no video and blank audio. After
>> a while, a section of audio from the main flow is repeated.
>
> Thanks, yeah that was a left over to compare an alternate ending. One
> idea is to make it such that the video can "loop" seamlessly for continuous
> play, at say a museum. And the plan is to put it under Creative Commons
> since I'm told that's the best way to help ensure it can be re-used without
> question.
>
> The plan was to keep it to 10min - at one point we had it up to 30min!!
> Minus the inadvertent excess, it'll be exactly 15min. A part2 might focus
> more on the Z80 and 6502 lines themselves, or I was thinking a kind of bio on
> the actual engineers involved ("the names and faces").
>
> Canada is represented also :) And I just recalled, the "TK-80" (training kit
> Z80 board) is also a "made in Japan" item (and led to the PC-8001 in '79), it
> probably needs a flag (and I wanted to show a France flag for the Micral-N --
> but in the effort to keep it closer to 10min, we just couldn't cover every
> item to keep a reasonable tempo). So then we debated to not have popup flags
> at all, but I felt it was important to note that there was international
> involvement here.
>
> -Steve
>
>
>
>> On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 5:55 AM Adrian Godwin via cctalk <
>> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
>>
>> Not really technical, but a couple of presentation points :
>>
>> There's a long tail to the video with no video and blank audio. After
>> a while, a section of audio from the main flow is repeated.
>>
>> It seems to be common to consider Youtube videos more approachable if
>> they're up to about 10 minutes long. You might benefit by splitting it
>> into
>> 2 parts.
>>
>> And even further off topic .. I see that the pictorial guide includes
>> machines from GB and Japan (and I think a Sharp is mentioned in the
>> description). Although GB was heavily influenced by USA machines it
>> did have it's own distinct history and so, I think, did Japan. Russia
>> also had clones of well known machines and their own designs. Did any
>> other countries have a history that was more complex than picking the
>> best known parts of the international trade ?
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 11:24 AM Steve Lewis via cctalk <
>> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Greetings,
>>>
>>> We're making final touches on a short history-video we've been
>>> making
>> about
>>> home computers (my daughter, in middle school, has been helping).
>>>
>>> If anyone has time/interest to do a review, the draft listing is here:
>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9mgSVJZoFc
>>>
>>> Unless anyone spots a gross technical error, we're hoping to render
>>> the final sometime this weekend or sometime this month.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Steve
>>>
>>
[cctalk] Re: Age of Tape Formats?
On 2023-03-08 11:07 a.m., Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: I think it remarkable in retrospect that the original Star Trek (ca. 1966) used countless mentions of "computer tapes" in the 23rd century. A lack of foresight on the part of the script writers? What can we predict for the year 2250? --Chuck The use of the old tape drives as 'computers' still found in the movies. Ben.
[cctalk] Re: Age of Tape Formats?
I hate to throw a spanner in the works but no one has mentioned U-Matic tapes. Normally used for video recording the early CD audio and CD-Rom industry encoded the digital image on to U-Matic tapes which were then used to drive the laser for writing to the CD Master. On 3/8/2023 11:42 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: On Mar 8, 2023, at 12:20 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: On 3/8/23 06:19, Paul Koning wrote: I wouldn't exclude those, certainly not if they are relevant to the evolution of the technology. Are X1 tapes (and Eliott tapes if they are the same format, which I don't know) in some way anticipating LINCtape and DECtape? Are they an independent invention of roughly the same concept? For that matter, would you exclude DECtape on the grounds that it's single vendor? I hope not. For that matter, I suspect the Uniservo I format is specific to Univac, yet you can't very well exclude that from a history of magnetic tape data recording. I view "captive formats" such as DECtape to be evolutionary dead ends. Consider, for example, the Datamatic 1000 tapes--I doubt that more than a handful of people here have ever heard of the system. A captive format. Or the early Uniservo metal tapes? I would disagree with that blanket assertion, for two reasons. One is that something isn't an "evolutionary dead end" only if nothing later was inspired by it and constructed, to some extent, along similar lines. In that sense the Uniservo tapes are not at all a dead end; instead, they are the ancestor of all later tapes. Properties like metal vs. plastic media and 6 tracks vs. 7 or 9 or more are details. Second, I would consider a format to be significant if it had a major market presence and major place in the technology space. In that sense, DECtape I clearly belongs -- being either the primary or a significant secondary storage device for a decade or two of some of the world's most successful computer lines. Similarly, is DLT a "dead end"? It was captive to some extent until it spread out, but then LTO replaced it. On the other hand, isn't LTO clearly an evolutionary variant of DLT? I'd agree that there are a number of other formats that were neither significant players nor a significant influence on later work. The CDC 14-track tapes would fit that description, and the Eliot or X1 10-track tapes most likely as well. But I would argue that "if it wasn't an industry or ISO standard it doesn't count" is too restrictive a view, especially if you aim to produce a history of the technology space. paul
[cctalk] Re: Age of Tape Formats?
On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 6:12 AM Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > I'm not familiar with PLATO cassettes. Are those attached to terminals? > The oldest data cassettes I know of are on the TI Silent 733 terminals -- > which were thought of as paper tape emulation done on audio cassettes, at > 300 bps. But I've never heard of anything like that on PLATO. The closest > similar thing I can think of is floppy disks, which were used as > peripherals to store "micro TUTOR" programs for some later terminals. The > current PLATO emulation at cyber1.org supports this. > The Silent 700 uses digital cassette tapes. I'm not sure what the actual difference is between them and audio cassettes except for the notch on the top side. Sellam
[cctalk] Re: Age of Tape Formats?
On 3/8/23 10:19, Dave Wade G4UGM via cctalk wrote: > > Yes, but Space 1999 still had slide rules.. I thought this discussion by one of the JPL people working on the tape mechanism for Voyager (1980) might be interesting to some: https://space.stackexchange.com/questions/2053/how-was-magnetic-tape-decay-prevented-in-voyager-1 --Chuck
[cctalk] Re: Age of Tape Formats?
> -Original Message- > From: Chuck Guzis via cctalk > Sent: Wednesday, March 8, 2023 6:08 PM > To: cctalk@classiccmp.org > Cc: Chuck Guzis > Subject: [cctalk] Re: Age of Tape Formats? > > I think it remarkable in retrospect that the original Star Trek (ca. > 1966) used countless mentions of "computer tapes" in the 23rd century. Yes, but Space 1999 still had slide rules.. > > A lack of foresight on the part of the script writers? > > What can we predict for the year 2250? > > --Chuck Dave
[cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers
I loved it. I would only suggest a human narrator like your daughter would be
great. But I don't like the computer generated narration (I am right about the
computer narrator, aren't I?).
-Original Message-
From: Steve Lewis via cctalk
Sent: Wednesday, March 8, 2023 11:54 AM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Cc: Steve Lewis
Subject: [cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers
Adrian,
> There's a long tail to the video with no video and blank audio. After
> a while, a section of audio from the main flow is repeated.
Thanks, yeah that was a left over to compare an alternate ending. One
idea is to make it such that the video can "loop" seamlessly for continuous
play, at say a museum. And the plan is to put it under Creative Commons
since I'm told that's the best way to help ensure it can be re-used without
question.
The plan was to keep it to 10min - at one point we had it up to 30min!!
Minus the inadvertent excess, it'll be exactly 15min. A part2 might focus
more on the Z80 and 6502 lines themselves, or I was thinking a kind of bio on
the actual engineers involved ("the names and faces").
Canada is represented also :) And I just recalled, the "TK-80" (training kit
Z80 board) is also a "made in Japan" item (and led to the PC-8001 in '79), it
probably needs a flag (and I wanted to show a France flag for the Micral-N --
but in the effort to keep it closer to 10min, we just couldn't cover every item
to keep a reasonable tempo). So then we debated to not have popup flags at all,
but I felt it was important to note that there was international involvement
here.
-Steve
On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 5:55 AM Adrian Godwin via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
> Not really technical, but a couple of presentation points :
>
> There's a long tail to the video with no video and blank audio. After
> a while, a section of audio from the main flow is repeated.
>
> It seems to be common to consider Youtube videos more approachable if
> they're up to about 10 minutes long. You might benefit by splitting it
> into
> 2 parts.
>
> And even further off topic .. I see that the pictorial guide includes
> machines from GB and Japan (and I think a Sharp is mentioned in the
> description). Although GB was heavily influenced by USA machines it
> did have it's own distinct history and so, I think, did Japan. Russia
> also had clones of well known machines and their own designs. Did any
> other countries have a history that was more complex than picking the
> best known parts of the international trade ?
>
>
>
> On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 11:24 AM Steve Lewis via cctalk <
> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> > Greetings,
> >
> > We're making final touches on a short history-video we've been
> > making
> about
> > home computers (my daughter, in middle school, has been helping).
> >
> > If anyone has time/interest to do a review, the draft listing is here:
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9mgSVJZoFc
> >
> > Unless anyone spots a gross technical error, we're hoping to render
> > the final sometime this weekend or sometime this month.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Steve
> >
>
[cctalk] Re: Age of Tape Formats?
I think it remarkable in retrospect that the original Star Trek (ca. 1966) used countless mentions of "computer tapes" in the 23rd century. A lack of foresight on the part of the script writers? What can we predict for the year 2250? --Chuck
[cctalk] Re: Age of Tape Formats?
On 3/8/23 09:42, Paul Koning wrote: > Second, I would consider a format to be significant if it had a major market > presence and major place in the technology space. In that sense, DECtape I > clearly belongs -- being either the primary or a significant secondary > storage device for a decade or two of some of the world's most successful > computer lines. And all of them DEC. No IBM, CDC, UNIVAC, etc. As to what it inspired, I can't say. > Similarly, is DLT a "dead end"? It was captive to some extent until it > spread out, but then LTO replaced it. On the other hand, isn't LTO clearly > an evolutionary variant of DLT? But DLT was used in systems made by various manufacturers. Yes, it originated at DEC, purchased by Quantum and used on various systems. In fact, Quantum probably made the bulk of the drives, not DEC. Being a cross-vendor interchange medium, I'd include it. The same for DDS and 8mm (Exabyte) media. Exabyte didn't make computer systems, so it necessarily had to be cross-vendor. DDS is, of course, DAT re-imagined. How about the 2mm Pereos tapes? Never really took hold and used Sony audio mechanisms. I'd call that a dead-end, not being aware of anything that it inspired. --Chuck
[cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers
She made you proud!! If all our kids can get as excited and curious about the history of computers as your daughter then the future will be so bright. We probably need to get more advice from her on what we all, old-school timers, should do to help keep the legacy going on ! Regards, Tarek Hoteit > On Mar 8, 2023, at 9:05 AM, Steve Lewis via cctalk > wrote: > > Tarek, > >> This is awesome, Steve. First of all please give a high five to your > middle-schooler daughter whom you had her help make such a high >> quality video. I assume that such videos will also be shared at schools, > and your daughter’s friends. It would help raise awareness on >> the history of computers that ultimately led to today’s devices and > software. For once, our kids can say “aha, so this is where home computers > came from?” :) > > You got it, the hope is to help awareness and be something acceptable for > schools to use. And part of this started when my daughter asked me "what > was the first home computer?" I just couldn't give a simple answer :) > She did the background (her signature is at the bottom left, "Carrion" -- > and its subtle, but the gray at the top and bottom was intended to > represent silica sand) and picked most of the system arrangement. > > > Thanks! > Steve > > > >> On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 9:25 AM Tarek Hoteit via cctalk < >> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: >> >> This is awesome, Steve. First of all please give a high five to your >> middle-schooler daughter whom you had her help make such a high quality >> video. I assume that such videos will also be shared at schools, and your >> daughter’s friends. It would help raise awareness on the history of >> computers that ultimately led to today’s devices and software. For once, >> our kids can say “aha, so this is where home computers came from?” :) >> In terms of content, I love the wealth of photos that are included. I can >> see that a lot of research was made for each item. As for the chronology of >> events or machines, there is never a 100% accurate story. Adrian, talked >> about US, UK, and Japan influence Yes but then what’s the fine line of >> telling the story without getting too long and too technical. I think you >> managed to strike a good balance in your video in terms of content and >> machines. Well done! >> >> Regards, >> Tarek Hoteit >> >>> On Mar 8, 2023, at 3:25 AM, Steve Lewis via cctalk < >> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: >>> >>> Greetings, >>> >>> We're making final touches on a short history-video we've been making >> about >>> home computers (my daughter, in middle school, has been helping). >>> >>> If anyone has time/interest to do a review, the draft listing is here: >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9mgSVJZoFc >>> >>> Unless anyone spots a gross technical error, we're hoping to render the >>> final sometime this weekend or sometime this month. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Steve >>
[cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers
I like that you've included machines like the HP and IBM - sometimes these histories start with the Altair as being the first one at an affordable price, but I'm sure those desktop machines got to a lot of scientific homes before the enthusiasts machines began to appear. On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 5:05 PM Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote: > Tarek, > > > This is awesome, Steve. First of all please give a high five to your > middle-schooler daughter whom you had her help make such a high > > quality video. I assume that such videos will also be shared at schools, > and your daughter’s friends. It would help raise awareness on > > the history of computers that ultimately led to today’s devices and > software. For once, our kids can say “aha, so this is where home computers > came from?” :) > > You got it, the hope is to help awareness and be something acceptable for > schools to use. And part of this started when my daughter asked me "what > was the first home computer?" I just couldn't give a simple answer :) > She did the background (her signature is at the bottom left, "Carrion" -- > and its subtle, but the gray at the top and bottom was intended to > represent silica sand) and picked most of the system arrangement. > > > Thanks! > Steve > > > > On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 9:25 AM Tarek Hoteit via cctalk < > cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > This is awesome, Steve. First of all please give a high five to your > > middle-schooler daughter whom you had her help make such a high quality > > video. I assume that such videos will also be shared at schools, and your > > daughter’s friends. It would help raise awareness on the history of > > computers that ultimately led to today’s devices and software. For once, > > our kids can say “aha, so this is where home computers came from?” :) > > In terms of content, I love the wealth of photos that are included. I can > > see that a lot of research was made for each item. As for the chronology > of > > events or machines, there is never a 100% accurate story. Adrian, talked > > about US, UK, and Japan influence Yes but then what’s the fine line of > > telling the story without getting too long and too technical. I think you > > managed to strike a good balance in your video in terms of content and > > machines. Well done! > > > > Regards, > > Tarek Hoteit > > > > > On Mar 8, 2023, at 3:25 AM, Steve Lewis via cctalk < > > cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > > Greetings, > > > > > > We're making final touches on a short history-video we've been making > > about > > > home computers (my daughter, in middle school, has been helping). > > > > > > If anyone has time/interest to do a review, the draft listing is here: > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9mgSVJZoFc > > > > > > Unless anyone spots a gross technical error, we're hoping to render the > > > final sometime this weekend or sometime this month. > > > > > > Thanks, > > > Steve > > >
[cctalk] Re: Age of Tape Formats?
> On Mar 8, 2023, at 12:20 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk > wrote: > > On 3/8/23 06:19, Paul Koning wrote: > > >> I wouldn't exclude those, certainly not if they are relevant to the >> evolution of the technology. Are X1 tapes (and Eliott tapes if they are the >> same format, which I don't know) in some way anticipating LINCtape and >> DECtape? Are they an independent invention of roughly the same concept? >> For that matter, would you exclude DECtape on the grounds that it's single >> vendor? I hope not. For that matter, I suspect the Uniservo I format is >> specific to Univac, yet you can't very well exclude that from a history of >> magnetic tape data recording. > > I view "captive formats" such as DECtape to be evolutionary dead ends. > > Consider, for example, the Datamatic 1000 tapes--I doubt that more than > a handful of people here have ever heard of the system. A captive format. > > Or the early Uniservo metal tapes? I would disagree with that blanket assertion, for two reasons. One is that something isn't an "evolutionary dead end" only if nothing later was inspired by it and constructed, to some extent, along similar lines. In that sense the Uniservo tapes are not at all a dead end; instead, they are the ancestor of all later tapes. Properties like metal vs. plastic media and 6 tracks vs. 7 or 9 or more are details. Second, I would consider a format to be significant if it had a major market presence and major place in the technology space. In that sense, DECtape I clearly belongs -- being either the primary or a significant secondary storage device for a decade or two of some of the world's most successful computer lines. Similarly, is DLT a "dead end"? It was captive to some extent until it spread out, but then LTO replaced it. On the other hand, isn't LTO clearly an evolutionary variant of DLT? I'd agree that there are a number of other formats that were neither significant players nor a significant influence on later work. The CDC 14-track tapes would fit that description, and the Eliot or X1 10-track tapes most likely as well. But I would argue that "if it wasn't an industry or ISO standard it doesn't count" is too restrictive a view, especially if you aim to produce a history of the technology space. paul
[cctalk] Re: Age of Tape Formats?
On 3/8/23 06:19, Paul Koning wrote: > I wouldn't exclude those, certainly not if they are relevant to the evolution > of the technology. Are X1 tapes (and Eliott tapes if they are the same > format, which I don't know) in some way anticipating LINCtape and DECtape? > Are they an independent invention of roughly the same concept? For that > matter, would you exclude DECtape on the grounds that it's single vendor? I > hope not. For that matter, I suspect the Uniservo I format is specific to > Univac, yet you can't very well exclude that from a history of magnetic tape > data recording. I view "captive formats" such as DECtape to be evolutionary dead ends. Consider, for example, the Datamatic 1000 tapes--I doubt that more than a handful of people here have ever heard of the system. A captive format. Or the early Uniservo metal tapes? Or the tapes used in the IBM 2321 Data Cell or 3850 MSS? Captive formats and evolutionary dead-ends. How about the stuff that never made it out of the lab? Such as the CDC SCROLL? I suspect that I may be one of few who even have heard of the beast--yet it was included in our forward-looking boilerplate in STAR proposals. How about the 9 track 1/2" 3200 fci tapes? Not mentioned yet. Quarter-inch cartridge tapes were quite varied. Although looking the same at first glance, there were significant differences. Consider the Alphamat...Zetamat 3M series of quarter inch tapes. (e.g. DC600HC). No optical sensing of BOT/EOT/media type holes--all done with preformatting. Those were popular with ADIC crowd--I have a couple of those drives in the eventual case that someone digs a tape up from the trash heap of history. How about the adapters that allowed use of VHS cassette equipment for backup? All dead-ends. Before disks were affordable, or even available, half-inch tape was used as primary storage. Consider the 7090 IBSYS shops--all tape operations. --Chuck
[cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers
Tarek, > This is awesome, Steve. First of all please give a high five to your middle-schooler daughter whom you had her help make such a high > quality video. I assume that such videos will also be shared at schools, and your daughter’s friends. It would help raise awareness on > the history of computers that ultimately led to today’s devices and software. For once, our kids can say “aha, so this is where home computers came from?” :) You got it, the hope is to help awareness and be something acceptable for schools to use. And part of this started when my daughter asked me "what was the first home computer?" I just couldn't give a simple answer :) She did the background (her signature is at the bottom left, "Carrion" -- and its subtle, but the gray at the top and bottom was intended to represent silica sand) and picked most of the system arrangement. Thanks! Steve On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 9:25 AM Tarek Hoteit via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > This is awesome, Steve. First of all please give a high five to your > middle-schooler daughter whom you had her help make such a high quality > video. I assume that such videos will also be shared at schools, and your > daughter’s friends. It would help raise awareness on the history of > computers that ultimately led to today’s devices and software. For once, > our kids can say “aha, so this is where home computers came from?” :) > In terms of content, I love the wealth of photos that are included. I can > see that a lot of research was made for each item. As for the chronology of > events or machines, there is never a 100% accurate story. Adrian, talked > about US, UK, and Japan influence Yes but then what’s the fine line of > telling the story without getting too long and too technical. I think you > managed to strike a good balance in your video in terms of content and > machines. Well done! > > Regards, > Tarek Hoteit > > > On Mar 8, 2023, at 3:25 AM, Steve Lewis via cctalk < > cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > Greetings, > > > > We're making final touches on a short history-video we've been making > about > > home computers (my daughter, in middle school, has been helping). > > > > If anyone has time/interest to do a review, the draft listing is here: > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9mgSVJZoFc > > > > Unless anyone spots a gross technical error, we're hoping to render the > > final sometime this weekend or sometime this month. > > > > Thanks, > > Steve >
[cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers
Adrian,
> There's a long tail to the video with no video and blank audio. After a
> while, a section of audio from the main flow is repeated.
Thanks, yeah that was a left over to compare an alternate ending. One
idea is to make it such that the video can "loop" seamlessly for continuous
play, at say a museum. And the plan is to put it under Creative Commons
since I'm told that's the best way to help ensure it can be re-used without
question.
The plan was to keep it to 10min - at one point we had it up to 30min!!
Minus the inadvertent excess, it'll be exactly 15min. A part2 might focus
more on the Z80 and 6502 lines themselves, or I was thinking a kind of bio
on the actual engineers involved ("the names and faces").
Canada is represented also :) And I just recalled, the "TK-80" (training
kit Z80 board) is also a "made in Japan" item (and led to the PC-8001 in
'79), it probably needs a flag (and I wanted to show a France flag for the
Micral-N -- but in the effort to keep it closer to 10min, we just couldn't
cover every item to keep a reasonable tempo). So then we debated to not
have popup flags at all, but I felt it was important to note that there was
international involvement here.
-Steve
On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 5:55 AM Adrian Godwin via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
> Not really technical, but a couple of presentation points :
>
> There's a long tail to the video with no video and blank audio. After a
> while, a section of audio from the main flow is repeated.
>
> It seems to be common to consider Youtube videos more approachable if
> they're up to about 10 minutes long. You might benefit by splitting it into
> 2 parts.
>
> And even further off topic .. I see that the pictorial guide includes
> machines from GB and Japan (and I think a Sharp is mentioned in the
> description). Although GB was heavily influenced by USA machines it did
> have it's own distinct history and so, I think, did Japan. Russia also had
> clones of well known machines and their own designs. Did any other
> countries have a history that was more complex than picking the best known
> parts of the international trade ?
>
>
>
> On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 11:24 AM Steve Lewis via cctalk <
> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> > Greetings,
> >
> > We're making final touches on a short history-video we've been making
> about
> > home computers (my daughter, in middle school, has been helping).
> >
> > If anyone has time/interest to do a review, the draft listing is here:
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9mgSVJZoFc
> >
> > Unless anyone spots a gross technical error, we're hoping to render the
> > final sometime this weekend or sometime this month.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Steve
> >
>
[cctalk] Re: Age of Tape Formats?
On 3/8/23 05:33, Dave Wade G4UGM via cctalk wrote: Our Honeywell H3200 had 1200BPI NRZI 7-track drives. http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/honeywell/datapro/70C-480-01_7404_Honeywell_200_2000.pdf page 13 onwards... Needed chrome tape Dave The reason NRZI topped out at 800 BPI on 9-track was skew. If you ever adjusted the skew using a skew tape, you could clearly SEE on a scope how close 800 BPI came to the limits of tape weave (and it WAS close). Jon
[cctalk] Re: Age of Tape Formats?
Speaking of compatibility, we had a 360/50 many ages ago, and it was "permitted" to put the tape controller on the multiplexer channel. This prevented long tape operations from locking up the disk controller on the selector channel. The model /50 only had one selector. But, if there was too much traffic on the multiplexer, it could cause data late issues. We tried to read some of those tapes on our PDP-11, and the controller couldn't do it. I got some Magna-See, and found that there were little gaps in the data records. These were quite obvious visually, so at least several character spaces. Apparently, IBM's tape controller had a 2-character FIFO and would only start processing the end of record after a LONG gap of at least 5-10 characters. Our Datum controllers immediately looked for a CRC after a 2-char gap, and got a CRC/LRCC error when it hit those little gaps. This would be on 800 BPI NRZI tapes, of course. Jon
[cctalk] Re: Age of Tape Formats?
On 3/7/23 22:34, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: I’ll be the first to admit my question is a bit strange. Basically I’m trying to use the date that various media types were first introduced to show the oldest possible date for a bunch of media I’m trying to date. The 9-Track tapes have been inventoried as “700 6250 BPI”, and I know they’re the smaller reels. Doing some digging, it looks like 6250BPI tapes date back at least as far as 1971 with the IBM 3400 series drives, I’d thought that 6250 came about in the 80’s. Wow! I'd love to see the 1971 vintage GCR tape controller, it must have been the size of a 360 CPU! We had a GCR controller from Storage Tech. in 1982 or so that was the same size as a PDP 11/44 large cabinet. CDC Keystone drives (92185) had it integrated into the 680x controller micro, which I thought was pretty amazing. Jon
[cctalk] Re: Age of Tape Formats?
> On Mar 8, 2023, at 10:07 AM, Bill Gunshannon > wrote: > > > On 3/8/2023 9:11 AM, Paul Koning wrote: >> >>> On Mar 8, 2023, at 7:25 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk >>> wrote: >>> >>> >>> On 3/7/2023 8:30 PM, Dennis Boone via cctalk wrote: > I’m working on a project, and I need to know the age of various tape > formats. For example when were 6250bpi 700’ 9-Track tapes or DC600A > cartridges introduced? Is there any good resource online that > documents this? Wikipedia is of some help, but the older you go, the > spottier it is. For QIC, qic.org has a some info. For DLT and LTO, the wikipedia pages are fairly useful. >>> What about the data cassettes used on things like Plato? Not at all like >>> the >>> audio cassettes later used on home computers. >> I'm not familiar with PLATO cassettes. Are those attached to terminals? >> The oldest data cassettes I know of are on the TI Silent 733 terminals -- >> which were thought of as paper tape emulation done on audio cassettes, at >> 300 bps. But I've never heard of anything like that on PLATO. The closest >> similar thing I can think of is floppy disks, which were used as peripherals >> to store "micro TUTOR" programs for some later terminals. The current PLATO >> emulation at cyber1.org supports this. >> >> Do you have any documents describing the cassettes you mentioned? >> >> > > > Nope. No data. Somewhere here in the house I still have a cassette. They > were just like audio cassettes but much sturdier. And had slides on the back > where you breakout the write-protect tabs on audio cassettes. I haven't seen > a Plato terminal since very early 80's which is when I acquired the one tape I > have. I seem to remember that if you put it in an audio cassette player all > you > got was noise. No recognizable patterns. But I could be wrong as that was a > long > time ago. > > I was hoping someone here had more info on it as I have always been curious. > > bill I posted a question in the "public notes" file on Cyber1, we'll see if anyone has any memories of this. On the "sturdier" and write protect slides, that rings a vague bell -- I think the cassettes supplied with the Silent 733 terminals looked like that. paul
[cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers
This is awesome, Steve. First of all please give a high five to your middle-schooler daughter whom you had her help make such a high quality video. I assume that such videos will also be shared at schools, and your daughter’s friends. It would help raise awareness on the history of computers that ultimately led to today’s devices and software. For once, our kids can say “aha, so this is where home computers came from?” :) In terms of content, I love the wealth of photos that are included. I can see that a lot of research was made for each item. As for the chronology of events or machines, there is never a 100% accurate story. Adrian, talked about US, UK, and Japan influence Yes but then what’s the fine line of telling the story without getting too long and too technical. I think you managed to strike a good balance in your video in terms of content and machines. Well done! Regards, Tarek Hoteit > On Mar 8, 2023, at 3:25 AM, Steve Lewis via cctalk > wrote: > > Greetings, > > We're making final touches on a short history-video we've been making about > home computers (my daughter, in middle school, has been helping). > > If anyone has time/interest to do a review, the draft listing is here: > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9mgSVJZoFc > > Unless anyone spots a gross technical error, we're hoping to render the > final sometime this weekend or sometime this month. > > Thanks, > Steve
[cctalk] Re: Age of Tape Formats?
On 3/8/2023 9:11 AM, Paul Koning wrote: On Mar 8, 2023, at 7:25 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: On 3/7/2023 8:30 PM, Dennis Boone via cctalk wrote: > I’m working on a project, and I need to know the age of various tape > formats. For example when were 6250bpi 700’ 9-Track tapes or DC600A > cartridges introduced? Is there any good resource online that > documents this? Wikipedia is of some help, but the older you go, the > spottier it is. For QIC, qic.org has a some info. For DLT and LTO, the wikipedia pages are fairly useful. What about the data cassettes used on things like Plato? Not at all like the audio cassettes later used on home computers. I'm not familiar with PLATO cassettes. Are those attached to terminals? The oldest data cassettes I know of are on the TI Silent 733 terminals -- which were thought of as paper tape emulation done on audio cassettes, at 300 bps. But I've never heard of anything like that on PLATO. The closest similar thing I can think of is floppy disks, which were used as peripherals to store "micro TUTOR" programs for some later terminals. The current PLATO emulation at cyber1.org supports this. Do you have any documents describing the cassettes you mentioned? Nope. No data. Somewhere here in the house I still have a cassette. They were just like audio cassettes but much sturdier. And had slides on the back where you breakout the write-protect tabs on audio cassettes. I haven't seen a Plato terminal since very early 80's which is when I acquired the one tape I have. I seem to remember that if you put it in an audio cassette player all you got was noise. No recognizable patterns. But I could be wrong as that was a long time ago. I was hoping someone here had more info on it as I have always been curious. bill
[cctalk] Re: Age of Tape Formats?
> On Mar 8, 2023, at 7:25 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk > wrote: > > > On 3/7/2023 8:30 PM, Dennis Boone via cctalk wrote: >> > I’m working on a project, and I need to know the age of various tape >> > formats. For example when were 6250bpi 700’ 9-Track tapes or DC600A >> > cartridges introduced? Is there any good resource online that >> > documents this? Wikipedia is of some help, but the older you go, the >> > spottier it is. >> >> For QIC, qic.org has a some info. For DLT and LTO, the wikipedia pages >> are fairly useful. > > What about the data cassettes used on things like Plato? Not at all like the > audio cassettes later used on home computers. I'm not familiar with PLATO cassettes. Are those attached to terminals? The oldest data cassettes I know of are on the TI Silent 733 terminals -- which were thought of as paper tape emulation done on audio cassettes, at 300 bps. But I've never heard of anything like that on PLATO. The closest similar thing I can think of is floppy disks, which were used as peripherals to store "micro TUTOR" programs for some later terminals. The current PLATO emulation at cyber1.org supports this. Do you have any documents describing the cassettes you mentioned? paul
[cctalk] Re: Age of Tape Formats?
Some information about the origin of CUTS here : https://retrocomputing.stackexchange.com/questions/8099/whats-the-difference-between-kansas-city-tape-standard-and-cuts I recall a Logabax computer (a french office / accounting system that seems to e completely forgotten) in about 1975 that had a built-in mechanism that used audio cassettes. The tapes, if played on an audio system, were a series of tones not unlike CUTS - I guess the idea of recording as audio something intended to be sent over the telephone system was fairly obvious. On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 12:25 PM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > > On 3/7/2023 8:30 PM, Dennis Boone via cctalk wrote: > > > I’m working on a project, and I need to know the age of various tape > > > formats. For example when were 6250bpi 700’ 9-Track tapes or DC600A > > > cartridges introduced? Is there any good resource online that > > > documents this? Wikipedia is of some help, but the older you go, the > > > spottier it is. > > > > For QIC, qic.org has a some info. For DLT and LTO, the wikipedia pages > > are fairly useful. > > What about the data cassettes used on things like Plato? Not at all > like the > > audio cassettes later used on home computers. > > > bill > > >
[cctalk] Re: Age of Tape Formats?
On 3/7/2023 8:30 PM, Dennis Boone via cctalk wrote: > I’m working on a project, and I need to know the age of various tape > formats. For example when were 6250bpi 700’ 9-Track tapes or DC600A > cartridges introduced? Is there any good resource online that > documents this? Wikipedia is of some help, but the older you go, the > spottier it is. For QIC, qic.org has a some info. For DLT and LTO, the wikipedia pages are fairly useful. What about the data cassettes used on things like Plato? Not at all like the audio cassettes later used on home computers. bill
[cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers
Not really technical, but a couple of presentation points : There's a long tail to the video with no video and blank audio. After a while, a section of audio from the main flow is repeated. It seems to be common to consider Youtube videos more approachable if they're up to about 10 minutes long. You might benefit by splitting it into 2 parts. And even further off topic .. I see that the pictorial guide includes machines from GB and Japan (and I think a Sharp is mentioned in the description). Although GB was heavily influenced by USA machines it did have it's own distinct history and so, I think, did Japan. Russia also had clones of well known machines and their own designs. Did any other countries have a history that was more complex than picking the best known parts of the international trade ? On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 11:24 AM Steve Lewis via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > Greetings, > > We're making final touches on a short history-video we've been making about > home computers (my daughter, in middle school, has been helping). > > If anyone has time/interest to do a review, the draft listing is here: > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9mgSVJZoFc > > Unless anyone spots a gross technical error, we're hoping to render the > final sometime this weekend or sometime this month. > > Thanks, > Steve >
[cctalk] Re: Age of Tape Formats?
> -Original Message- > From: Zane Healy via cctalk > Sent: Wednesday, March 8, 2023 4:35 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Cc: Zane Healy > Subject: [cctalk] Re: Age of Tape Formats? > > On Mar 7, 2023, at 5:32 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk > wrote: > > > > I'm a bit puzzled by "6250 700'" because the reel size has no bearing on the > format. 10 inch reels (1200 feet) were by far the most common but > occasionallly the smaller 600 foot ones would be seen. and in rare cases (the > infamous DEC TS05 comes to mind) 600' was all that they could handle. > > I’ll be the first to admit my question is a bit strange. Basically I’m > trying to use > the date that various media types were first introduced to show the oldest > possible date for a bunch of media I’m trying to date. The 9-Track tapes have > been inventoried as “700 6250 BPI”, and I know they’re the smaller reels. > Doing > some digging, it looks like 6250BPI tapes date back at least as far as 1971 > with > the IBM 3400 series drives, I’d thought that 6250 came about in the 80’s. > > Zane > Our Honeywell H3200 had 1200BPI NRZI 7-track drives. http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/honeywell/datapro/70C-480-01_7404_Honeywell_200_2000.pdf page 13 onwards... Needed chrome tape Dave
[cctalk] on the origin of home computers
Greetings, We're making final touches on a short history-video we've been making about home computers (my daughter, in middle school, has been helping). If anyone has time/interest to do a review, the draft listing is here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9mgSVJZoFc Unless anyone spots a gross technical error, we're hoping to render the final sometime this weekend or sometime this month. Thanks, Steve
