[cctalk] Re: Apple 1
On 8/25/2023 9:46 AM, Gavin Scott via cctalk wrote: I feel like people are over-thinking the Apple 1 thing. Apple made a lot of people rich, and I think the number of rich Apple people who want to be able to throw parties and say stuff like, "Oh, yes, that's my Apple I that I paid a million dollars for." substantially exceeds the number of extant Apple I systems. I don't think this phenomenon is applicable to very many other products. G. I agree, this is it. Because the Apple 1 is an absolutely awful computer to use. It's about on par with a Sinclair ZX80. Someone else mentioned contemporary S-100 (micro) or DEC machines (mini).. at least those were real machines, still interesting to use today. There's nothing interesting about using an Apple 1 (IMHO). The Apple II, a whole different story.
[cctalk] Re: Apple 1
Paul, this is getting OT...but "value" is what something sells for, or the future value it will be agreed to sell for. Otherwise it's subjective "value" to the individual meets reality eventually. On Fri, Aug 25, 2023 at 9:43 AM Paul Koning via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > On Aug 25, 2023, at 9:39 AM, Bill Degnan via cctalk < > cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > On Fri, Aug 25, 2023 at 9:27 AM Paul Koning via cctalk < > > cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > >> > >> > >>> On Aug 24, 2023, at 9:29 PM, Sellam Abraham via cctalk < > >> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > >>> > >>> ... > >>> It's obvious that the Apple 1 has the value it does not so much for its > >>> technology but for what it represents, and that's all that matters. > >> > >> This reminds me of the observation that economics is a branch of > >> psychology: the value of stuff is subjective and personal. (It has to > be, > >> because in a trade each person exchanges an item for a different item > >> valued more highly *by that person*.) So arguing about it doesn't get > you > >> very far. > >> > >>paul > >> > >> > > Paul, > > Just to add my thoughts, not to argueto me economics is based on > supply > > and demand. It's not as a science "subjective". Economists can only in > > hindsight quantify the impact of subjective factors on supply and demand > > after they actually have occurred. From that, one tries to predict the > > future taking past subjective impact to determine future economic > > outcomes, momemtum, etc. > > Yes, but I wasn't talking about that aspect, but about the concept of > "value". Communist pseudo-economics notwithstanding, value is in the eye > of the beholder. As I said, it must be: if I sell you my computer for > $100, and you buy it for that, it means I value $100 more than the > computer, and you value the computer more than $100. > > paul > >
[cctalk] Re: Apple 1
I feel like people are over-thinking the Apple 1 thing. Apple made a lot of people rich, and I think the number of rich Apple people who want to be able to throw parties and say stuff like, "Oh, yes, that's my Apple I that I paid a million dollars for." substantially exceeds the number of extant Apple I systems. I don't think this phenomenon is applicable to very many other products. G.
[cctalk] Re: Apple 1
> On Aug 25, 2023, at 9:39 AM, Bill Degnan via cctalk > wrote: > > On Fri, Aug 25, 2023 at 9:27 AM Paul Koning via cctalk < > cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> >> >>> On Aug 24, 2023, at 9:29 PM, Sellam Abraham via cctalk < >> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: >>> >>> ... >>> It's obvious that the Apple 1 has the value it does not so much for its >>> technology but for what it represents, and that's all that matters. >> >> This reminds me of the observation that economics is a branch of >> psychology: the value of stuff is subjective and personal. (It has to be, >> because in a trade each person exchanges an item for a different item >> valued more highly *by that person*.) So arguing about it doesn't get you >> very far. >> >>paul >> >> > Paul, > Just to add my thoughts, not to argueto me economics is based on supply > and demand. It's not as a science "subjective". Economists can only in > hindsight quantify the impact of subjective factors on supply and demand > after they actually have occurred. From that, one tries to predict the > future taking past subjective impact to determine future economic > outcomes, momemtum, etc. Yes, but I wasn't talking about that aspect, but about the concept of "value". Communist pseudo-economics notwithstanding, value is in the eye of the beholder. As I said, it must be: if I sell you my computer for $100, and you buy it for that, it means I value $100 more than the computer, and you value the computer more than $100. paul
[cctalk] Re: Apple 1
On Fri, Aug 25, 2023 at 9:27 AM Paul Koning via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > On Aug 24, 2023, at 9:29 PM, Sellam Abraham via cctalk < > cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > ... > > It's obvious that the Apple 1 has the value it does not so much for its > > technology but for what it represents, and that's all that matters. > > This reminds me of the observation that economics is a branch of > psychology: the value of stuff is subjective and personal. (It has to be, > because in a trade each person exchanges an item for a different item > valued more highly *by that person*.) So arguing about it doesn't get you > very far. > > paul > > Paul, Just to add my thoughts, not to argueto me economics is based on supply and demand. It's not as a science "subjective". Economists can only in hindsight quantify the impact of subjective factors on supply and demand after they actually have occurred. From that, one tries to predict the future taking past subjective impact to determine future economic outcomes, momemtum, etc.
[cctalk] Re: Apple 1
> On Aug 24, 2023, at 9:29 PM, Sellam Abraham via cctalk > wrote: > > ... > It's obvious that the Apple 1 has the value it does not so much for its > technology but for what it represents, and that's all that matters. This reminds me of the observation that economics is a branch of psychology: the value of stuff is subjective and personal. (It has to be, because in a trade each person exchanges an item for a different item valued more highly *by that person*.) So arguing about it doesn't get you very far. paul
[cctalk] Re: Apple 1
On Thu, Aug 24, 2023 at 5:51 PM Bill Degnan via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > > I don't mean to be argumentative. I totally get it why the apple I is > historic and valuable, but the proportion is lost. My only point, the > proportion. The fact that today Apple is worth $1Tn does not make the > Apple 1 more historic. > Apple is the only company of that early micro/home-computer era to still exist today. I think Cromemco still exists in Europe, but in an extremely vertical market. So there's that. > I agree the aApple I stands out among SBC computers sold in 1976, but there > is nothing that amazing that could not be found elsewhere in an SBC, > otherwise it would have sold more. > > The Jolt was the first 6502, how much is that worth? > About 3 orders of magnitude less than the Apple 1, because the Jolt was effectively a deadend, and thus, relatively few people even know of its existence. Side note: it's one of the few computers I was never able to get my hands on, even though I became personal friends with its inventor :) It's obvious that the Apple 1 has the value it does not so much for its technology but for what it represents, and that's all that matters. Sellam
[cctalk] Re: Apple 1
On Thu, Aug 24, 2023, 20:51 Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > The Jolt was the first 6502, how much is that worth? > Did the Jolt predate the KIM-1? I don't know their introduction dates.
[cctalk] Re: Apple 1
On Thu, Aug 17, 2023, 21:27 Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > The PACE itself was a re-cast of the NSC IMP-16 chipset. > The IMP-16 and PACE architectures were similar (and similar to the DG Nova), but they weren't binary or source compatible. Apparently NS didn't think there was enough of an existing IMP-16 software base to worry about compatibility, and instead tried to take the opportunity to make (minor) architectural improvements. A few hobbyists built IMP-16 and PACE/INS8900 computers, and there were even a few commercial products, e.g. the Pacer microcomputer from Product Support Engineering. The IMP-16 and PACE, and even the NMOS INS8900, are very slow. For most workloads, a 2 MHz 8080 can outperform them. I've run figForth on a PACE. The published listing had a small but serious error. The original listing and my fix are on Bitsavers. The author of the PACE implementation thinks that the listing sent to FIG was by mistake not his up-to-date working version. Demonstrating the lack of popularity of PACE, apparently no one ever complained about it until I discovered and fixed the bug in 2009. I'd like to modify PACE figForth to run on an IMP-16, but there's a surprisingly large amount of work required.
[cctalk] Re: Apple 1
On Thu, Aug 24, 2023, 8:38 PM Eric Smith via cctalk wrote: > On Sat, Aug 5, 2023, 08:54 Bill Degnan via cctalk > wrote: > > > The Apple I is not historically significant enough alone to justify > > the prices they get > > > > The first product sold by the first company to hit $1T market cap seems > historically significant to me. > That's the whole point...viewing history from today's perspective THEN the Apple I was not historic, it was an awesome SBC like others available at the time. The Apple II is more "historic" because it was a first appliance computer. Basically the Apple I is the first Apple. Historic yes but not off the charts historic for it's time. I don't mean to be argumentative. I totally get it why the apple I is historic and valuable, but the proportion is lost. My only point, the proportion. The fact that today Apple is worth $1Tn does not make the Apple 1 more historic. AFAIK the Apple 1 was also the first inexpensive (somewhat subjective) > personal computer to include a composite video text display and a parallel > keyboard interface. Such was possible with the PDP-8 and PDP-11/05, but > they were very expensive, and it wasn't a normal configuration. Also > possible with an S100 system, cheaper than a PDP-anything, but still much > more expensive than Apple 1, and had to be configured out of a lot of > pieces. > > There are a lot of "firsts" throughout the history of computing, and I'm > sure that there is disagreement over the significance of many, but I think > I'd have a very hard time justifying myself if I claimed the Apple 1 was > not historically significant. > > Eric > I agree the aApple I stands out among SBC computers sold in 1976, but there is nothing that amazing that could not be found elsewhere in an SBC, otherwise it would have sold more. The Jolt was the first 6502, how much is that worth? Bill >
[cctalk] Re: Apple 1
On Sat, Aug 5, 2023, 08:54 Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > The Apple I is not historically significant enough alone to justify > the prices they get > The first product sold by the first company to hit $1T market cap seems historically significant to me. AFAIK the Apple 1 was also the first inexpensive (somewhat subjective) personal computer to include a composite video text display and a parallel keyboard interface. Such was possible with the PDP-8 and PDP-11/05, but they were very expensive, and it wasn't a normal configuration. Also possible with an S100 system, cheaper than a PDP-anything, but still much more expensive than Apple 1, and had to be configured out of a lot of pieces. There are a lot of "firsts" throughout the history of computing, and I'm sure that there is disagreement over the significance of many, but I think I'd have a very hard time justifying myself if I claimed the Apple 1 was not historically significant. Eric
[cctalk] Re: Apple 1
On 8/17/23 17:40, ben via cctalk wrote: > Did any body ever buy the PACE 16 cpu? Godbout ad, DEC 1975, BYTE page 9. I grabbed one and manuals as a freebie at Wescon, I think. I built it onto an S100 board (PMOS-TTL level translation will add lots of parts). I got it going, and then, I thought "now what?" Eventually I repurposed the prototype board. The novelty of a 16-bit CPU wasn't worth the effort. The instruction set wasn't all that great and the limitation of a 10-level stack was a buzz kill. The GI CP1600 was far easier to work with--I sold that CPU chip to a collector a few years ago. I think NSC re-cast the PACE as the NMOS INS8900, with TTL-level I/O. The PACE itself was a re-cast of the NSC IMP-16 chipset. --Chuck
[cctalk] Re: Apple 1
On 2023-08-17 2:30 p.m., Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: On Thu, Aug 17, 2023, 4:07 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: On Thu, 17 Aug 2023, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: I should add that part of the fun is to locate parts for free or cheap from dead or unimportant period electronics, cards, etc. In that way slowly building up what is needed to complete parts of the Apple I replica one piece at a time. I am not in a rush. "unimportant period electronics, cards, etc." such as that blue box, an Imsai, etc.? :-) Exactly. Who needs an IMSAI anyway? Ha ha... In truth I have a lot of old military chips and stuff like that, generic s100 cards with burnt traces and so on. Obviously not to harm or cannibalize anything that should be preserved B Like the magic smoke you find in transistors. :) In retrospect only did the S100 bus takeoff with the Z80 and Drams. Did any body ever buy the PACE 16 cpu? Godbout ad, DEC 1975, BYTE page 9.
[cctalk] Re: Apple 1
On Thu, Aug 17, 2023, 4:07 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, 17 Aug 2023, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > > I should add that part of the fun is to locate parts for free or cheap > from > > dead or unimportant period electronics, cards, etc. In that way slowly > > building up what is needed to complete parts of the Apple I replica one > > piece at a time. I am not in a rush. > > "unimportant period electronics, cards, etc." > such as that blue box, an Imsai, etc.? :-) > Exactly. Who needs an IMSAI anyway? Ha ha... In truth I have a lot of old military chips and stuff like that, generic s100 cards with burnt traces and so on. Obviously not to harm or cannibalize anything that should be preserved B >
[cctalk] Re: Apple 1
> On Aug 17, 2023, at 3:18 PM, ben via cctalk wrote: > > ... > Unicorn electronics, sells replica parts. > NOW you know why the sell for on ebay. :) > Ben. > https://unicornelectronics.com/ Nice. They seem to have lots of stuff at decent prices. Impressive to see SN7441 ICs, admittedly not cheap at $10 each but if you need their capabilities, any other option is a lot more stuff and likely just as expensive. paul
[cctalk] Re: Apple 1
On Thu, 17 Aug 2023, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: I should add that part of the fun is to locate parts for free or cheap from dead or unimportant period electronics, cards, etc. In that way slowly building up what is needed to complete parts of the Apple I replica one piece at a time. I am not in a rush. "unimportant period electronics, cards, etc." such as that blue box, an Imsai, etc.? :-)
[cctalk] Re: Apple 1
On 2023-08-17 12:28 p.m., Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: On Sat, Aug 5, 2023 at 4:08 PM Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: But...because the apple I is so valuable people have been motivated to produce really nice replica motherboards. The replicas give many the chance to experience the Apple I at a reasonable price I have a bare replica PCB. It's proving difficult to stuff without spending a wad. It's fun to find original parts and sockets to try to get a replica as close as possible to an original. You can do that for less than buying an original but it's still $$$ in part because of the rarity of the oddball shift registers, etc., and in part because of the demand for specific package types and date codes to achieve the closest match to an original. Just the ICs alone are hundreds of dollars, the large caps are tens of dollars and even that exact heat sink isn't exactly cheap. Unicorn electronics, sells replica parts. NOW you know why the sell for on ebay. :) Ben. https://unicornelectronics.com/ PS: The apple I kit is the same price as in 1976. 10% discount for vintage money?
[cctalk] Re: Apple 1
> there aren't a lot of places to encounter massive PMOS shift registers. I someone had told me around 1975 that these would become Valuable Collectibles I would have laughed my ass off. Maybe I should get around to doing something with those ceramic 1702s. Probably equally "collectible" now. mcl
[cctalk] Re: Apple 1
On Thu, Aug 17, 2023 at 2:34 PM Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, Aug 17, 2023 at 2:28 PM Ethan Dicks via cctalk < > I should add that part of the fun is to locate parts for free or cheap from > dead or unimportant period electronics, cards, etc. In that way slowly > building up what is needed to complete parts of the Apple I replica one > piece at a time. I am not in a rush. I am totally doing that, but outside of early-70s dumb terminals and maybe some early electronic sound effect devices, there aren't a lot of places to encounter massive PMOS shift registers. RAM and generic logic are easy enough to find with patience. Closed TI sockets are also findable, but they were awful then and haven't improved one bit with age. -ethan
[cctalk] Re: Apple 1
On Sat, Aug 5, 2023 at 6:11 PM Cameron Kaiser via cctalk wrote: > I have an IMSAI as well, but for me my favourite computer of that era is the > KIM-1, and that's such a simple design there are tons of implementations I only recently got a KIM-1 (at VCF East). It's been on my list for a while and I was able to get it in a swap not eBay prices so I'm twice as happy. > (though I prefer the original since some of them apparently have edge-case > incompatibilities). I've had a replica for a while and for running code it's an adequate match, but, yes, there are some quirks that do matter. One of the biggest implementation differences from 1976 to today totally matters to me - I have an old TVT 6-5/8 Cheap Video board I got as a kid that needs the "upstream tap" to present different memory contents to the CPU and to the video board, and that in turn depends on how and where the bus is buffered. Most of the simple replicas are either total hardware emulation (KIM Uno) or are so small that they just don't have the same bus buffer arrangement so that would have to be hacked in. Now that I _have_ a KIM-1, I can look at how bad the hackery is and finally see this board in action. -ethan
[cctalk] Re: Apple 1
On Thu, Aug 17, 2023 at 2:28 PM Ethan Dicks via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Sat, Aug 5, 2023 at 4:08 PM Bill Degnan via cctalk > wrote: > > But...because the apple I is so valuable people have been motivated to > > produce really nice replica motherboards. The replicas give many the > > chance to experience the Apple I at a reasonable price > > I have a bare replica PCB. It's proving difficult to stuff without > spending a wad. > > > It's fun to find original parts and sockets to try to get > > a replica as close as possible to an original. > > You can do that for less than buying an original but it's still $$$ in > part because of the rarity of the oddball shift registers, etc., and > in part because of the demand for specific package types and date > codes to achieve the closest match to an original. Just the ICs alone > are hundreds of dollars, the large caps are tens of dollars and even > that exact heat sink isn't exactly cheap. > > > I should add that part of the fun is to locate parts for free or cheap from dead or unimportant period electronics, cards, etc. In that way slowly building up what is needed to complete parts of the Apple I replica one piece at a time. I am not in a rush. Bill
[cctalk] Re: Apple 1
On Sat, Aug 5, 2023 at 4:08 PM Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > But...because the apple I is so valuable people have been motivated to > produce really nice replica motherboards. The replicas give many the > chance to experience the Apple I at a reasonable price I have a bare replica PCB. It's proving difficult to stuff without spending a wad. > It's fun to find original parts and sockets to try to get > a replica as close as possible to an original. You can do that for less than buying an original but it's still $$$ in part because of the rarity of the oddball shift registers, etc., and in part because of the demand for specific package types and date codes to achieve the closest match to an original. Just the ICs alone are hundreds of dollars, the large caps are tens of dollars and even that exact heat sink isn't exactly cheap. My classic interests are wide and varied (as demonstrated by what I bring to VCF) and totally encompass all sorts of 6502 systems. The specific interest the Apple 1 has for me is how screwy the video implementation is (cheap in its time but an evolutionary dead end) and how much it can do with 256 bytes of ROM and 8K of RAM. I would like to be able to build up my board just to watch it run, but outside of that, a non-exact replica (typically using a modern microcontroller to implement the stages of shift registers) still gets the job done for hacking raw 6502 code. I certainly believe in running old systems (I use machines from the 60s and 70s all the time) but in the case of a computer that costs more than my house, I'd probably lock it up in a vault and only take it out for special occasions too. -ethan
[cctalk] Re: Apple 1
The MITS emulator can't play Daisy :D As I was leaving VCF late a few months ago, I was rolling an Apple2 around outside on a cart - and a student across the street was walking by. I didn't think much of it, then he ran over and asked "isn't that an Apple?" So it occured to me: he was excited to see an old computer that was probably twice his age. And, he recognized it from far away just by the shape (he sure didn't see the logo from that far away).Nice young lad, we chatted a few minutes. But the incident made me realize that, anywhere in the world, an Apple will get recognized - can't say the same for an IMSAI or MITS box. Then the Apple1 advantage is we know fairly precisely how many were made, and combined that each one (likely) was handled by at least one of the Steve's personally. I tried to suggest to Woz for him to go ahead and finally make an "official case" for the Apple1! He could probably sell them for a lot, even if it was just basla wood that he glued himself. But he wanted to do stuff with near earth satellite tracking instead. That's probably more useful. Anyway, the "personally handled" stuff doesn't mean a thing to our engineering minds- but people do still acknowledge a spirit or essence about objects. Shroud of Turin type stuff, or StJohn the Baptist hand in Topkapi Palace. Soaked up blood from King Charles I beheading. But if we need to channel the 1970s, we'll have these IC chips with Jobs dandruff or Woz drool on it. Can't say that about the 15,000th KIM-1 or the 10million C64's. (I'm teasing, not meaning any offense -- all those C64's are special and valuable each in their own way). -Steve v* On Sat, Aug 5, 2023 at 5:32 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > I have a MITS Altair 8800 that I constructed from the kit back in 1975. > I haven't touched the thing in over 30 years--nor am I likely to. > It'll probably go to the e-recycler (hopefully not the landfill) when I > shed this mortal coil or simply become incompetent. IIRC it ran about > $1,000--and that was without keyboard or display (TVT used). I didn't > use it that long because of its rather cheesy construction--I moved to > an Integrand S100 box as soon as they were available. Still have that > one too--and not an icon to the Apple Fanboiz. > > There's nothing that the MITS box can do today that an emulator or other > equipment can. And in spite of its early appearance, it's not an icon > to the über wealthy. > > --Chuck > > > >
[cctalk] Re: Apple 1
Cool. One of packages that I supported also ran on the "Medium Systems" (B3000 and B4000 at that point). When I needed to run tests on those machines, I had to drive to the Pasadena office. There was an old-school fish bowl system operator room though it hadn't been used as such for a long time. The whole place felt like the remains of another era, which it was. Back to B1000, several years after the fact I found that, within six months of when I moved to the Seattle area, Fort Lewis had included some model of B1800 in a surplus auction. If i had only known ... On 8/5/23 7:27 PM, Mike Stein via cctalk wrote: Ah, BBM memories... My first paying programmer/operator job was on a B260 in the late 60s, the first Burroughs minicomputer in Canada IIRC. Many years later, after trying a few other careers including managing a large motorcycle dealership, I wound up back with Burroughs doing contract programming for series L machines, B1800s and B80 & 90s, cross-compiling on a B2700 at night when I had it all to myself. I too had lots of disk cartridges, cassettes, mag tapes and even punched cards and tapes, many pretty rare today, that I threw out before I realized that there were actually folks interested in that old 'junk'. Still have the operator console from that B2700 though... On Sat, Aug 5, 2023 at 8:04 PM Alan Perry via cctalk wrote: My holy grail is a Burroughs B1965. I was one of the last people at Burroughs (Unisys at that point) fixing bugs in the system software on B1000 (the only one in the Lake Forest, CA office; all of the sys admins knew of the B1965 there as "my" machine.). My office was filled with B1000 removable disk packs (different versions of the OS and release management of the software packages I owned). I loved working with that machine. I have boot and maintenance cassettes and a disk pack that I picked up on eBay. I should have taken and preserved more stuff before I left. On 8/5/23 4:30 PM, John Herron via cctalk wrote: For no personally good reason other than the stigma (and technically incorrect) being the first PC, the Altair 8800 is my holy Grail. Some day I'd like to have a real one but they increase in value at the same rate as my income lol so not likely going to happen. It's a neat system though and like a lot of people I like blinken lights and flip switches. Still feels science fantasy to me. Less systems being around makes all of these popular systems go up in price with supply and demand. Not sure what would make the market go down unless hundreds were found somewhere and flooded the market. But it's interesting as less kids would have heard of any of these systems so maybe history becomes less interesting and valuable at some point? On Sat, Aug 5, 2023, 6:21 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: On 8/5/23 15:58, b...@techtimetraveller.com wrote: Do you have an emotional attachment to it? I just saw one sell on ebay yesterday for $6100. An e-recycler will have a nice payday on your Altair. No real attachment; it was a useful tool for a time. It took an entire weekend with coffee and little sleep to assemble it. And those really awful cheap white wires... I'd have to pull it off the shelf, clean it up and get it working again. That's not trivial and I have better uses for my time. --Chuck
[cctalk] Re: Apple 1
Ah, BBM memories... My first paying programmer/operator job was on a B260 in the late 60s, the first Burroughs minicomputer in Canada IIRC. Many years later, after trying a few other careers including managing a large motorcycle dealership, I wound up back with Burroughs doing contract programming for series L machines, B1800s and B80 & 90s, cross-compiling on a B2700 at night when I had it all to myself. I too had lots of disk cartridges, cassettes, mag tapes and even punched cards and tapes, many pretty rare today, that I threw out before I realized that there were actually folks interested in that old 'junk'. Still have the operator console from that B2700 though... On Sat, Aug 5, 2023 at 8:04 PM Alan Perry via cctalk wrote: > > My holy grail is a Burroughs B1965. I was one of the last people at > Burroughs (Unisys at that point) fixing bugs in the system software on > B1000 (the only one in the Lake Forest, CA office; all of the sys admins > knew of the B1965 there as "my" machine.). My office was filled with > B1000 removable disk packs (different versions of the OS and release > management of the software packages I owned). I loved working with that > machine. > > I have boot and maintenance cassettes and a disk pack that I picked up > on eBay. I should have taken and preserved more stuff before I left. > > On 8/5/23 4:30 PM, John Herron via cctalk wrote: > > For no personally good reason other than the stigma (and technically > > incorrect) being the first PC, the Altair 8800 is my holy Grail. Some > day > > I'd like to have a real one but they increase in value at the same rate > as > > my income lol so not likely going to happen. It's a neat system though > and > > like a lot of people I like blinken lights and flip switches. Still feels > > science fantasy to me. > > > > Less systems being around makes all of these popular systems go up in > price > > with supply and demand. Not sure what would make the market go down > unless > > hundreds were found somewhere and flooded the market. But it's > interesting > > as less kids would have heard of any of these systems so maybe history > > becomes less interesting and valuable at some point? > > > > On Sat, Aug 5, 2023, 6:21 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk < > cctalk@classiccmp.org> > > wrote: > > > >> On 8/5/23 15:58, b...@techtimetraveller.com wrote: > >>> Do you have an emotional attachment to it? I just saw one sell on ebay > >> yesterday for $6100. An e-recycler will have a nice payday on your > >> Altair. > >> No real attachment; it was a useful tool for a time. It took an entire > >> weekend with coffee and little sleep to assemble it. And those really > >> awful cheap white wires... > >> > >> I'd have to pull it off the shelf, clean it up and get it working again. > >> That's not trivial and I have better uses for my time. > >> > >> --Chuck > >> > >> > >> >
[cctalk] Re: Apple 1
As a matter of fact a local friend, Josh Bensadon, restored their MCM/70 for the York U museum in Toronto On Sat, Aug 5, 2023 at 7:37 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 8/5/23 16:30, John Herron wrote: > > For no personally good reason other than the stigma (and technically > > incorrect) being the first PC, the Altair 8800 is my holy Grail. Some > > day I'd like to have a real one but they increase in value at the same > > rate as my income lol so not likely going to happen. It's a neat system > > though and like a lot of people I like blinken lights and flip switches. > > Still feels science fantasy to me. > > If I weren't old and if I were a collector, I'd be going after an MCM/70 > as my target. 8008 CPU, APL and pretty darned close to the first > mobile-capable PC. > > Gotta love them Canadians! > > --Chuck > > >
[cctalk] Re: Apple 1
Yup! There's one in the local University's museum, and the curator even wrote a book about its interesting history. On Sat, Aug 5, 2023 at 7:37 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 8/5/23 16:30, John Herron wrote: > > For no personally good reason other than the stigma (and technically > > incorrect) being the first PC, the Altair 8800 is my holy Grail. Some > > day I'd like to have a real one but they increase in value at the same > > rate as my income lol so not likely going to happen. It's a neat system > > though and like a lot of people I like blinken lights and flip switches. > > Still feels science fantasy to me. > > If I weren't old and if I were a collector, I'd be going after an MCM/70 > as my target. 8008 CPU, APL and pretty darned close to the first > mobile-capable PC. > > Gotta love them Canadians! > > --Chuck > > >
[cctalk] Re: Apple 1
On Sat, Aug 5, 2023, 4:37 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > If I weren't old and if I were a collector, I'd be going after an MCM/70 > as my target. 8008 CPU, APL and pretty darned close to the first > mobile-capable PC. > > Gotta love them Canadians. > Definitely a sleeper. Very hard to find though. Also, definitely the first intentionally portable computer. Sellam >
[cctalk] Re: Apple 1
On Sat, Aug 5, 2023, 3:32 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > I have a MITS Altair 8800 that I constructed from the kit back in 1975. > I haven't touched the thing in over 30 years--nor am I likely to. > It'll probably go to the e-recycler (hopefully not the landfill) when I > shed this mortal coil or simply become incompetent. Chuck, The fact that you are suggesting to let your Altair 8800 go to a recycler is indicative of incompetence. It's time to recycle it. I can take care of that for you. Simply ship it to me. Please send me a private message so I can get my address to you. Sellam
[cctalk] Re: Apple 1
My holy grail is a Burroughs B1965. I was one of the last people at Burroughs (Unisys at that point) fixing bugs in the system software on B1000 (the only one in the Lake Forest, CA office; all of the sys admins knew of the B1965 there as "my" machine.). My office was filled with B1000 removable disk packs (different versions of the OS and release management of the software packages I owned). I loved working with that machine. I have boot and maintenance cassettes and a disk pack that I picked up on eBay. I should have taken and preserved more stuff before I left. On 8/5/23 4:30 PM, John Herron via cctalk wrote: For no personally good reason other than the stigma (and technically incorrect) being the first PC, the Altair 8800 is my holy Grail. Some day I'd like to have a real one but they increase in value at the same rate as my income lol so not likely going to happen. It's a neat system though and like a lot of people I like blinken lights and flip switches. Still feels science fantasy to me. Less systems being around makes all of these popular systems go up in price with supply and demand. Not sure what would make the market go down unless hundreds were found somewhere and flooded the market. But it's interesting as less kids would have heard of any of these systems so maybe history becomes less interesting and valuable at some point? On Sat, Aug 5, 2023, 6:21 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: On 8/5/23 15:58, b...@techtimetraveller.com wrote: Do you have an emotional attachment to it? I just saw one sell on ebay yesterday for $6100. An e-recycler will have a nice payday on your Altair. No real attachment; it was a useful tool for a time. It took an entire weekend with coffee and little sleep to assemble it. And those really awful cheap white wires... I'd have to pull it off the shelf, clean it up and get it working again. That's not trivial and I have better uses for my time. --Chuck
[cctalk] Re: Apple 1
On 8/5/23 16:30, John Herron wrote: > For no personally good reason other than the stigma (and technically > incorrect) being the first PC, the Altair 8800 is my holy Grail. Some > day I'd like to have a real one but they increase in value at the same > rate as my income lol so not likely going to happen. It's a neat system > though and like a lot of people I like blinken lights and flip switches. > Still feels science fantasy to me. If I weren't old and if I were a collector, I'd be going after an MCM/70 as my target. 8008 CPU, APL and pretty darned close to the first mobile-capable PC. Gotta love them Canadians! --Chuck
[cctalk] Re: Apple 1
For no personally good reason other than the stigma (and technically incorrect) being the first PC, the Altair 8800 is my holy Grail. Some day I'd like to have a real one but they increase in value at the same rate as my income lol so not likely going to happen. It's a neat system though and like a lot of people I like blinken lights and flip switches. Still feels science fantasy to me. Less systems being around makes all of these popular systems go up in price with supply and demand. Not sure what would make the market go down unless hundreds were found somewhere and flooded the market. But it's interesting as less kids would have heard of any of these systems so maybe history becomes less interesting and valuable at some point? On Sat, Aug 5, 2023, 6:21 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 8/5/23 15:58, b...@techtimetraveller.com wrote: > > Do you have an emotional attachment to it? I just saw one sell on ebay > yesterday for $6100. An e-recycler will have a nice payday on your > Altair. > > > > No real attachment; it was a useful tool for a time. It took an entire > weekend with coffee and little sleep to assemble it. And those really > awful cheap white wires... > > I'd have to pull it off the shelf, clean it up and get it working again. > That's not trivial and I have better uses for my time. > > --Chuck > > >
[cctalk] Re: Apple 1
On 8/5/23 15:58, b...@techtimetraveller.com wrote: > Do you have an emotional attachment to it? I just saw one sell on ebay > yesterday for $6100. An e-recycler will have a nice payday on your Altair. > No real attachment; it was a useful tool for a time. It took an entire weekend with coffee and little sleep to assemble it. And those really awful cheap white wires... I'd have to pull it off the shelf, clean it up and get it working again. That's not trivial and I have better uses for my time. --Chuck
[cctalk] Re: Apple 1
Agreed. I wonder though if Apple eventually founders (always possible - Kodak did), if Jobs/Apple will still have quite the same appeal and collector's halo effect on their oldest products. -Original Message- From: Sellam Abraham via cctalk Sent: Saturday, August 5, 2023 2:12 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Cc: Sellam Abraham Subject: [cctalk] Re: Apple 1 On Sat, Aug 5, 2023, 9:48 AM Joshua Rice via cctalk wrote: > > The Apple 1 is collectible purely because it was the first product > Apple made. Not really, though that's part of it. The value of the Apple 1 has more to do with the Cult of Steve than anything else. Steve Jobs became the most celebrated CEO of his time. He was practically a rockstar. Personally, I think the admiration for Jobs turned into cringey idol worship, but the fact is millions of people around the world were impacted by the products Apple produced under his leadership, and he received the adoration. As I said previously, the Apple 1 is now an icon, a status symbol for the wealthy. The "Veblen Good" concept absolutely applies here. They have transcended our motley little community of vintage computer enthusiasts. They will continue to be held in high end collections for generations to come. Sellam
[cctalk] Re: Apple 1
Do you have an emotional attachment to it? I just saw one sell on ebay yesterday for $6100. An e-recycler will have a nice payday on your Altair. I'm not too keen on emulation. Because I never got to experience the earlier machines in person (too young), emulation doesn't cut it for me. My 1970s gear isn't nostalgia, it's new experiences. I want the physical look and feel of the original hardware. It's not the same with an emulator. Meanwhile, I grew up Commodore and have piles of Commodore stuff, but I don't touch any of it because 'been there/done that'. Brad -Original Message- From: Chuck Guzis via cctalk Sent: Saturday, August 5, 2023 3:32 PM To: Cameron Kaiser via cctalk Cc: Chuck Guzis Subject: [cctalk] Re: Apple 1 I have a MITS Altair 8800 that I constructed from the kit back in 1975. I haven't touched the thing in over 30 years--nor am I likely to. It'll probably go to the e-recycler (hopefully not the landfill) when I shed this mortal coil or simply become incompetent. IIRC it ran about $1,000--and that was without keyboard or display (TVT used). I didn't use it that long because of its rather cheesy construction--I moved to an Integrand S100 box as soon as they were available. Still have that one too--and not an icon to the Apple Fanboiz. There's nothing that the MITS box can do today that an emulator or other equipment can. And in spite of its early appearance, it's not an icon to the über wealthy. --Chuck
[cctalk] Re: Apple 1
I have a MITS Altair 8800 that I constructed from the kit back in 1975. I haven't touched the thing in over 30 years--nor am I likely to. It'll probably go to the e-recycler (hopefully not the landfill) when I shed this mortal coil or simply become incompetent. IIRC it ran about $1,000--and that was without keyboard or display (TVT used). I didn't use it that long because of its rather cheesy construction--I moved to an Integrand S100 box as soon as they were available. Still have that one too--and not an icon to the Apple Fanboiz. There's nothing that the MITS box can do today that an emulator or other equipment can. And in spite of its early appearance, it's not an icon to the über wealthy. --Chuck
[cctalk] Re: Apple 1
> Personally I use my IMSAI somewhat regularly, thats my favorite computer
> from the mid 70s.
I have an IMSAI as well, but for me my favourite computer of that era is the
KIM-1, and that's such a simple design there are tons of reimplementations
(though I prefer the original since some of them apparently have edge-case
incompatibilities).
--
personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckai...@floodgap.com
-- When in doubt, take a pawn. -- Mission: Impossible ("Crack-Up")
[cctalk] Re: Apple 1
On Sat, Aug 5, 2023, 9:48 AM Joshua Rice via cctalk wrote: > > The Apple 1 is collectible purely because it was the first product Apple > made. Not really, though that's part of it. The value of the Apple 1 has more to do with the Cult of Steve than anything else. Steve Jobs became the most celebrated CEO of his time. He was practically a rockstar. Personally, I think the admiration for Jobs turned into cringey idol worship, but the fact is millions of people around the world were impacted by the products Apple produced under his leadership, and he received the adoration. As I said previously, the Apple 1 is now an icon, a status symbol for the wealthy. The "Veblen Good" concept absolutely applies here. They have transcended our motley little community of vintage computer enthusiasts. They will continue to be held in high end collections for generations to come. Sellam
[cctalk] Re: Apple 1
On 8/5/2023 4:07 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: On Sat, Aug 5, 2023, 1:46 PM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: On 8/3/2023 3:45 AM, Joshua Rice via cctalk wrote: I’d still prefer the IMSAI 8080 or SWTPC 6800 though. While I have a couple Apple ]['s I really don't do much with them. Haven't even turned one on since I retired from the University in 2015 and they came home . Wouldn't take an Apple 1 as a gift but I, too, would love to have an IMSAI and a SWTPC 6800. But...because the apple I is so valuable people have been motivated to produce really nice replica motherboards. The replicas give many the chance to experience the Apple I at a reasonable price, thanks indirectly to those willing to pay for the real thing. Otherwise we'd probably never get to use one. It's fun to find original parts and sockets to try to get a replica as close as possible to an original. I guess it does not matter how or why it happenend but the Apple I is the ultimate vintage computing collectible. Personally I use my IMSAI somewhat regularly, thats my favorite computer from the mid 70s. Nowadays my most used vintage computers are my TRS-80's. Even more than my PDP-11's and VAX. But if I had an IMSAI I think it would be #1. bill
[cctalk] Re: Apple 1
On Sat, Aug 5, 2023, 1:46 PM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > > On 8/3/2023 3:45 AM, Joshua Rice via cctalk wrote: > > > > I’d still prefer the IMSAI 8080 or SWTPC 6800 though. > > > While I have a couple Apple ]['s I really don't do much with them. Haven't > > even turned one on since I retired from the University in 2015 and they > > came home . > > Wouldn't take an Apple 1 as a gift but I, too, would love to have an IMSAI > > and a SWTPC 6800. > > > But...because the apple I is so valuable people have been motivated to produce really nice replica motherboards. The replicas give many the chance to experience the Apple I at a reasonable price, thanks indirectly to those willing to pay for the real thing. Otherwise we'd probably never get to use one. It's fun to find original parts and sockets to try to get a replica as close as possible to an original. I guess it does not matter how or why it happenend but the Apple I is the ultimate vintage computing collectible. Personally I use my IMSAI somewhat regularly, thats my favorite computer from the mid 70s.
[cctalk] Re: Apple 1
On 2023-08-05 11:16 a.m., Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: On 8/3/23 00:45, Joshua Rice via cctalk wrote: Value is a very much reliant on both desirability and historical significance. I guarantee most people who own an Apple 1 never use it, and it sits in a cabinet/shelf somewhere. Transversely, I’m sure there’s very few Amiga 1200’s purely on display, with the vast majority in collectors hands either tucked in a cupboard or actively used. The Apple 1 is collectible purely because it was the first product Apple made. There’s dozens of similar machines from the same time period, vcreated by startups looking to be the next big thing, that just didn’t make it. Look at SWTPC, look at IMSAI, the COSMAC ELF. Apple made it to the big time, and they didn’t, so many more people with too much money would consider the Apple 1 to be a wise investment. I’d still prefer the IMSAI 8080 or SWTPC 6800 though. Collection values are so subjective that to me, that they make little sense. For example, is a Mac that belonged to Steve Jobs more valuable than the same model Mac that belonged to Harvey Schmidlap? Same machine--I doubt that any scientific test could affirm that Jobs was still alive in the former. But the difference to collectors may be a couple orders of magnitude. But then, I see little difference in value between an original painting and an expert copy. Yes, I know, I have no soul! --Chuck If it was so great a Investment, why did not more sell at $666.66 in 1976? Ben.
[cctalk] Re: Apple 1
On 8/3/2023 3:45 AM, Joshua Rice via cctalk wrote: I’d still prefer the IMSAI 8080 or SWTPC 6800 though. While I have a couple Apple ]['s I really don't do much with them. Haven't even turned one on since I retired from the University in 2015 and they came home . Wouldn't take an Apple 1 as a gift but I, too, would love to have an IMSAI and a SWTPC 6800. bill
[cctalk] Re: Apple 1
On 8/3/23 00:45, Joshua Rice via cctalk wrote: > Value is a very much reliant on both desirability and historical > significance. I guarantee most people who own an Apple 1 never use it, and it > sits in a cabinet/shelf somewhere. Transversely, I’m sure there’s very few > Amiga 1200’s purely on display, with the vast majority in collectors hands > either tucked in a cupboard or actively used. > > The Apple 1 is collectible purely because it was the first product Apple > made. There’s dozens of similar machines from the same time period, vcreated > by startups looking to be the next big thing, that just didn’t make it. Look > at SWTPC, look at IMSAI, the COSMAC ELF. Apple made it to the big time, and > they didn’t, so many more people with too much money would consider the Apple > 1 to be a wise investment. > > I’d still prefer the IMSAI 8080 or SWTPC 6800 though. Collection values are so subjective that to me, that they make little sense. For example, is a Mac that belonged to Steve Jobs more valuable than the same model Mac that belonged to Harvey Schmidlap? Same machine--I doubt that any scientific test could affirm that Jobs was still alive in the former. But the difference to collectors may be a couple orders of magnitude. But then, I see little difference in value between an original painting and an expert copy. Yes, I know, I have no soul! --Chuck
[cctalk] Re: Apple 1
Value is a very much reliant on both desirability and historical significance. I guarantee most people who own an Apple 1 never use it, and it sits in a cabinet/shelf somewhere. Transversely, I’m sure there’s very few Amiga 1200’s purely on display, with the vast majority in collectors hands either tucked in a cupboard or actively used. The Apple 1 is collectible purely because it was the first product Apple made. There’s dozens of similar machines from the same time period, vcreated by startups looking to be the next big thing, that just didn’t make it. Look at SWTPC, look at IMSAI, the COSMAC ELF. Apple made it to the big time, and they didn’t, so many more people with too much money would consider the Apple 1 to be a wise investment. I’d still prefer the IMSAI 8080 or SWTPC 6800 though. Josh Sent from Mail for Windows From: Christian Corti via cctalk Sent: 03 August 2023 07:07 To: Murray McCullough via cctalk Cc: Christian Corti Subject: [cctalk] Re: Apple 1 On Wed, 2 Aug 2023, Murray McCullough wrote: > Classic computers have a value in our capitalist society. Take the Apple-1: Not necessarily. Something only gets a value if there is a demand or market. As I repeatedly see old classic systems scrapped because nobody wants them/has space to store them, there can't be such a high value. For example, how do you tax a Mincal 523? We have the only one that survived. I'd say, it's "priceless", you can't attribute a value to it, because there's neither a market nor a reference to compare with. The only reason why the Apple 1 has a monetary value is because it has become a pure investment object. Everything else is just worthless, except perhaps the video shift registers ;-) Christian
[cctalk] Re: Apple 1
On Sat, Aug 5, 2023, 9:44 AM Gordon Henderson via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Sat, 5 Aug 2023, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > > > Something has to be the most sought-after thing in every collectors' > > hobby. The Apple I is not historically significant enough alone to > justify > > the prices they get, there is a cultural/memorabilia component too. Just > > rare enough to form an elite "market". It's an indicator that computer > age > > collecting is healthy and robust. The Apple I prices help support all > > vintage computer prices, if you're into all that. > > Maybe see also: > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veblen_good > > Gordon > Pretty much nails it. B >
[cctalk] Re: Apple 1
On Sat, 5 Aug 2023, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: Something has to be the most sought-after thing in every collectors' hobby. The Apple I is not historically significant enough alone to justify the prices they get, there is a cultural/memorabilia component too. Just rare enough to form an elite "market". It's an indicator that computer age collecting is healthy and robust. The Apple I prices help support all vintage computer prices, if you're into all that. Maybe see also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veblen_good Gordon
[cctalk] Re: Apple 1
> No one collects cloud servers, the things that do > the real work and storage. Will they? Google's first server is in the Computer History Museum... On Sat, Aug 5, 2023 at 8:54 AM Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > Something has to be the most sought-after thing in every collectors' > hobby. The Apple I is not historically significant enough alone to justify > the prices they get, there is a cultural/memorabilia component too. Just > rare enough to form an elite "market". It's an indicator that computer age > collecting is healthy and robust. The Apple I prices help support all > vintage computer prices, if you're into all that. > > I have noticed, from running an indie computer museum for 4 years, that > young people dont know much about 8-bit computers. They're much more > interested in SGIs and NeXT and DOS gamers with a mouse GUI. > > Fast forward 50 years. Impossible to know how society will rememeber the > computer age, roughly 1950-2000. A lot of kids today dont lust after a > computer like prior 4 generations, their smartphone and school-issued > chromebooks are just fine. Most people today own computers that are > nothing more than a network interfaces. We in this group are atypical, > archaic by definition. No one collects cloud servers, the things that do > the real work and storage. Will they? Not sure what you call it but we're > not in the "computer age" anymore. My point, the memorabilia factor that > supports Apple I prices will drop off, leaving only the historic value. > Will the historic value support current prices? A market requires demand. > What will be the demand in 2073? > > Historians will always value the Apple I and a few others from the computer > age, but the price escalation phase of probably over. > > One would still have to pay the future value equivalent of $250,000+ for an > Apple I for as long time. Few if any other computers from our era will > earn anything close to those prices. > > Bill > > On Fri, Aug 4, 2023, 2:03 PM Peter Corlett via cctalk < > cctalk@classiccmp.org> > wrote: > > > On Fri, Aug 04, 2023 at 08:51:31AM -0500, John Herron via cctalk wrote: > > [...] > > > That price is interesting. Does that imply the value has gone down > after > > > some skyrocketed close to 1 million? One still has to make the decision > > of > > > a owning a house or an apple 1. > > > > Well, both of them are treated as speculative investments, putting them > out > > of reach of people who just want the pleasure of using them rather than > > looking for the next bagholder. The main difference is that I can just > buy > > the parts to build my own Apple 1 and nobody's going to stop me, whereas > if > > I try that with a house the local authority gets quite upset. > > > > > -- Michael Thompson
[cctalk] Re: Apple 1
Something has to be the most sought-after thing in every collectors' hobby. The Apple I is not historically significant enough alone to justify the prices they get, there is a cultural/memorabilia component too. Just rare enough to form an elite "market". It's an indicator that computer age collecting is healthy and robust. The Apple I prices help support all vintage computer prices, if you're into all that. I have noticed, from running an indie computer museum for 4 years, that young people dont know much about 8-bit computers. They're much more interested in SGIs and NeXT and DOS gamers with a mouse GUI. Fast forward 50 years. Impossible to know how society will rememeber the computer age, roughly 1950-2000. A lot of kids today dont lust after a computer like prior 4 generations, their smartphone and school-issued chromebooks are just fine. Most people today own computers that are nothing more than a network interfaces. We in this group are atypical, archaic by definition. No one collects cloud servers, the things that do the real work and storage. Will they? Not sure what you call it but we're not in the "computer age" anymore. My point, the memorabilia factor that supports Apple I prices will drop off, leaving only the historic value. Will the historic value support current prices? A market requires demand. What will be the demand in 2073? Historians will always value the Apple I and a few others from the computer age, but the price escalation phase of probably over. One would still have to pay the future value equivalent of $250,000+ for an Apple I for as long time. Few if any other computers from our era will earn anything close to those prices. Bill On Fri, Aug 4, 2023, 2:03 PM Peter Corlett via cctalk wrote: > On Fri, Aug 04, 2023 at 08:51:31AM -0500, John Herron via cctalk wrote: > [...] > > That price is interesting. Does that imply the value has gone down after > > some skyrocketed close to 1 million? One still has to make the decision > of > > a owning a house or an apple 1. > > Well, both of them are treated as speculative investments, putting them out > of reach of people who just want the pleasure of using them rather than > looking for the next bagholder. The main difference is that I can just buy > the parts to build my own Apple 1 and nobody's going to stop me, whereas if > I try that with a house the local authority gets quite upset. > >
[cctalk] Re: Apple 1
On Fri, Aug 04, 2023 at 08:51:31AM -0500, John Herron via cctalk wrote: [...] > That price is interesting. Does that imply the value has gone down after > some skyrocketed close to 1 million? One still has to make the decision of > a owning a house or an apple 1. Well, both of them are treated as speculative investments, putting them out of reach of people who just want the pleasure of using them rather than looking for the next bagholder. The main difference is that I can just buy the parts to build my own Apple 1 and nobody's going to stop me, whereas if I try that with a house the local authority gets quite upset.
[cctalk] Re: Apple 1
Apple 1 prices have definitely peaked...for now. But you won't find one for a few funded dollars in your lifetime, if ever. They're now an object of a rich man's obsession. Sellam On Fri, Aug 4, 2023, 6:51 AM John Herron via cctalk wrote: > That price is interesting. Does that imply the value has gone down after > some skyrocketed close to 1 million? One still has to make the decision of > a owning a house or an apple 1. > > On Thu, Aug 3, 2023, 1:08 AM Christian Corti via cctalk < > cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > On Wed, 2 Aug 2023, Murray McCullough wrote: > > > Classic computers have a value in our capitalist society. Take the > > Apple-1: > > > > Not necessarily. Something only gets a value if there is a demand or > > market. As I repeatedly see old classic systems scrapped because nobody > > wants them/has space to store them, there can't be such a high value. For > > example, how do you tax a Mincal 523? We have the only one that survived. > > I'd say, it's "priceless", you can't attribute a value to it, because > > there's neither a market nor a reference to compare with. > > The only reason why the Apple 1 has a monetary value is because it has > > become a pure investment object. Everything else is just worthless, > except > > perhaps the video shift registers ;-) > > > > Christian > > >
[cctalk] Re: Apple 1
That price is interesting. Does that imply the value has gone down after some skyrocketed close to 1 million? One still has to make the decision of a owning a house or an apple 1. On Thu, Aug 3, 2023, 1:08 AM Christian Corti via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Wed, 2 Aug 2023, Murray McCullough wrote: > > Classic computers have a value in our capitalist society. Take the > Apple-1: > > Not necessarily. Something only gets a value if there is a demand or > market. As I repeatedly see old classic systems scrapped because nobody > wants them/has space to store them, there can't be such a high value. For > example, how do you tax a Mincal 523? We have the only one that survived. > I'd say, it's "priceless", you can't attribute a value to it, because > there's neither a market nor a reference to compare with. > The only reason why the Apple 1 has a monetary value is because it has > become a pure investment object. Everything else is just worthless, except > perhaps the video shift registers ;-) > > Christian >
[cctalk] Re: Apple 1
On Wed, 2 Aug 2023, Murray McCullough wrote: Classic computers have a value in our capitalist society. Take the Apple-1: Not necessarily. Something only gets a value if there is a demand or market. As I repeatedly see old classic systems scrapped because nobody wants them/has space to store them, there can't be such a high value. For example, how do you tax a Mincal 523? We have the only one that survived. I'd say, it's "priceless", you can't attribute a value to it, because there's neither a market nor a reference to compare with. The only reason why the Apple 1 has a monetary value is because it has become a pure investment object. Everything else is just worthless, except perhaps the video shift registers ;-) Christian
[cctalk] Apple 1
Classic computers have a value in our capitalist society. Take the Apple-1: Its value can be in the $100,000s. One is for sale now: ~ $200,000. Next seems to be the Kenbak-1 valued somewhere around $50,000. Now, I’m not suggesting money is the epitome for evaluating our hobby but it goes a long way to explaining its longevity. Happy computing. Murray Add. I'm unable to get the output from your site but hope to contribute in some small way.
Re: Apple 1 and memorabilia up for auction in Boston (NOT on Epay)
A person would have to be pretty good to fool a lot of us here on this mailing list when presented with a fake Apple I. There are certain things that would give it away. Not saying it would be impossible but it would be eventually exposed. I can't imagine someone who knows art and appraisals would not know a fake Renoir when he/she saw it, but maybe it's harder to spot a fake painting or sculpture than a fake Apple I. Bill On Thu, Feb 11, 2021 at 7:05 PM Ethan Dicks via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Fri, Dec 11, 2020 at 10:05 PM Jim Manley via cctalk > wrote: > > It's been estimated by experts that a third to half of the "original > > artwork", previously valued at a total in the tens of billions in museums > > and collectors' places, are counterfeits. > > 35 years ago I was in Anaheim for DECUS and my work buddy and I met up > with his family and we went to the Getty Museum. I had previously > spent multiple seasons in Greece doing archeological fieldwork, and my > degree is a BA in History with a Classics specialty. We walked into > one large chamber and there was this Koros (youth/Apollo statue) from > at least the 7th C BC. I looked at it and said aloud that it had to > be a fake - it was too good compared to the many I'd seen in museums > and at sites around Greece. > > Several years later it was revealed to be a very expensive, but well > executed, forgery. > > -ethan >
Re: Apple 1 and memorabilia up for auction in Boston (NOT on Epay)
On Fri, Dec 11, 2020 at 10:05 PM Jim Manley via cctalk wrote: > It's been estimated by experts that a third to half of the "original > artwork", previously valued at a total in the tens of billions in museums > and collectors' places, are counterfeits. 35 years ago I was in Anaheim for DECUS and my work buddy and I met up with his family and we went to the Getty Museum. I had previously spent multiple seasons in Greece doing archeological fieldwork, and my degree is a BA in History with a Classics specialty. We walked into one large chamber and there was this Koros (youth/Apollo statue) from at least the 7th C BC. I looked at it and said aloud that it had to be a fake - it was too good compared to the many I'd seen in museums and at sites around Greece. Several years later it was revealed to be a very expensive, but well executed, forgery. -ethan
Re: Apple 1 and memorabilia up for auction in Boston (NOT on Epay)
The "restoration" hopefully is 100% on the ICs as a $400k price needs the original IC set not work if that was the case. At least I'd think having the original parts is more useful to the buyer. You can or get an emulator for the Apple 1, which is cute, but isn't that great a machine, and not disturb an original artifact. Forget the Apple 1 on that auction site... those Apple colored "sunglasses" that Woz had made are pretty funky. Some other Apple things on there as well. - Ethan
Re: Apple 1 and memorabilia up for auction in Boston (NOT on Epay)
Watch the Orson Welles film "F is for Fake" ... On 12/11/20 6:56 PM, Jim Manley via cctalk wrote: On Fri, Dec 11, 2020 at 3:07 PM Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: Anyone that was seriously going to put up the money for this would know how to go about authenticating this item. It's been estimated by experts that a third to half of the "original artwork", previously valued at a total in the tens of billions in museums and collectors' places, are counterfeits. There have been a number of well-researched news stories, including a full segment on "60 Minutes" a couple of decades ago, where a counterfeiter was interviewed and showed how he executed his craft. One counterfeiter was so good that he sold paintings for tens of millions of dollars that were never even painted by the purported original artist, but were hinted at or described by art historians, based on rumors going back into the mists of time. Caveat emptor .. On Fri, Dec 11, 2020 at 3:07 PM Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: On Fri, Dec 11, 2020 at 8:23 AM W2HX via cctalk wrote: What am I missing? The picture shown on RR auctions shows the board with no chips? Watch the (unlisted) video linked to the auction listing from Corey Cohen. From what I have seen in the past he is pretty much the expert on Apple 1 restoration and authentication. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDTchQuP_Ec In any case, it doesn't really matter too much what any of us here think. Anyone that was seriously going to put up the money for this would know how to go about authenticating this item.
Apple 1 and memorabilia up for auction in Boston (NOT on Epay)
I really don't need another one. Bob Saver of lost Sols
Re: Apple 1 and memorabilia up for auction in Boston (NOT on Epay)
On Fri, Dec 11, 2020 at 3:07 PM Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: > Anyone that was seriously going to put up the money for this would know > how to go about authenticating this item. It's been estimated by experts that a third to half of the "original artwork", previously valued at a total in the tens of billions in museums and collectors' places, are counterfeits. There have been a number of well-researched news stories, including a full segment on "60 Minutes" a couple of decades ago, where a counterfeiter was interviewed and showed how he executed his craft. One counterfeiter was so good that he sold paintings for tens of millions of dollars that were never even painted by the purported original artist, but were hinted at or described by art historians, based on rumors going back into the mists of time. Caveat emptor ... On Fri, Dec 11, 2020 at 3:07 PM Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: > On Fri, Dec 11, 2020 at 8:23 AM W2HX via cctalk > wrote: > > > > What am I missing? The picture shown on RR auctions shows the board with > no chips? > > Watch the (unlisted) video linked to the auction listing from Corey > Cohen. From what I have seen in the past he is pretty much the expert > on Apple 1 restoration and authentication. > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDTchQuP_Ec > > In any case, it doesn't really matter too much what any of us here > think. Anyone that was seriously going to put up the money for this > would know how to go about authenticating this item. >
Re: Apple 1 and memorabilia up for auction in Boston (NOT on Epay)
On Fri, Dec 11, 2020 at 8:23 AM W2HX via cctalk wrote: > > What am I missing? The picture shown on RR auctions shows the board with no > chips? Watch the (unlisted) video linked to the auction listing from Corey Cohen. From what I have seen in the past he is pretty much the expert on Apple 1 restoration and authentication. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDTchQuP_Ec In any case, it doesn't really matter too much what any of us here think. Anyone that was seriously going to put up the money for this would know how to go about authenticating this item.
Re: Apple 1 and memorabilia up for auction in Boston (NOT on Epay)
On 12/11/2020 9:17 AM, Gavin Scott via cctalk wrote: The last two photos if you scroll down show the board populated in presumably its current condition. But it's an interesting question of why there are all these bare board photos. I suspect "qualified bidders" will want to carefully peruse the report of the restoration that is apparently available to them. And since when are buyer's premiums 25%? Yeesh! But then if you need to ask the price... On Fri, Dec 11, 2020 at 10:24 AM W2HX via cctalk wrote: What am I missing? The picture shown on RR auctions shows the board with no chips? this is up on RR auction https://www.rrauction.com/bidtracker_detail.cfm?IN=6001 Of interest to the early apple fans on here: https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/93832586_apple-1-computer-with- original-box-signed-by-steve I wanted to see the box and accessories But alas no picture of the goods. -Ali I hope they know there was a nearly 100% identical clone board made up. I have one in the pile somewhere. If you were good at it, you might be able to take off the etch marker which shows it's not the real thing. There's one also that is a functional equivalent as well. The "restoration" hopefully is 100% on the ICs as a $400k price needs the original IC set not work if that was the case. At least I'd think having the original parts is more useful to the buyer. You can or get an emulator for the Apple 1, which is cute, but isn't that great a machine, and not disturb an original artifact. It does also state that the parts are all have remarkably clear markings. I'd not take that as a great thing unless there was some explanation. thanks Jim
Re: Apple 1 and memorabilia up for auction in Boston (NOT on Epay)
The last two photos if you scroll down show the board populated in presumably its current condition. But it's an interesting question of why there are all these bare board photos. I suspect "qualified bidders" will want to carefully peruse the report of the restoration that is apparently available to them. And since when are buyer's premiums 25%? Yeesh! But then if you need to ask the price... On Fri, Dec 11, 2020 at 10:24 AM W2HX via cctalk wrote: > > What am I missing? The picture shown on RR auctions shows the board with no > chips? > > -Original Message- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Adrian Stoness via > cctalk > Sent: Thursday, December 10, 2020 10:32 PM > To: Ali ; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic > Posts > Subject: Re: Apple 1 and memorabilia up for auction in Boston (NOT on Epay) > > this is up on RR auction > https://www.rrauction.com/bidtracker_detail.cfm?IN=6001 > > On Thu, Dec 10, 2020 at 9:30 PM Ali via cctalk > wrote: > > > > Of interest to the early apple fans on here: > > > > > > https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/93832586_apple-1-computer-with- > > > original-box-signed-by-steve > > > > I wanted to see the box and accessories But alas no picture of the > > goods. > > > > -Ali > > > >
RE: Apple 1 and memorabilia up for auction in Boston (NOT on Epay)
What am I missing? The picture shown on RR auctions shows the board with no chips? Search for Apple in the search box at the top. There are some Woz Schematics for the Apple II, the Apple 1 and a bunch of other stuff. Looks like some of it might be Woz's stuff but hard to tell. Apple 1 was at $102K this morning. -- Ethan
RE: Apple 1 and memorabilia up for auction in Boston (NOT on Epay)
What am I missing? The picture shown on RR auctions shows the board with no chips? -Original Message- From: cctalk On Behalf Of Adrian Stoness via cctalk Sent: Thursday, December 10, 2020 10:32 PM To: Ali ; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Apple 1 and memorabilia up for auction in Boston (NOT on Epay) this is up on RR auction https://www.rrauction.com/bidtracker_detail.cfm?IN=6001 On Thu, Dec 10, 2020 at 9:30 PM Ali via cctalk wrote: > > Of interest to the early apple fans on here: > > > > https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/93832586_apple-1-computer-with- > > original-box-signed-by-steve > > I wanted to see the box and accessories But alas no picture of the > goods. > > -Ali > >
Re: Apple 1 and memorabilia up for auction in Boston (NOT on Epay)
this is up on RR auction https://www.rrauction.com/bidtracker_detail.cfm?IN=6001 On Thu, Dec 10, 2020 at 9:30 PM Ali via cctalk wrote: > > Of interest to the early apple fans on here: > > > > https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/93832586_apple-1-computer-with- > > original-box-signed-by-steve > > I wanted to see the box and accessories But alas no picture of the > goods. > > -Ali > >
RE: Apple 1 and memorabilia up for auction in Boston (NOT on Epay)
> Of interest to the early apple fans on here: > > https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/93832586_apple-1-computer-with- > original-box-signed-by-steve I wanted to see the box and accessories But alas no picture of the goods. -Ali
Apple 1 and memorabilia up for auction in Boston (NOT on Epay)
Of interest to the early apple fans on here: https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/93832586_apple-1-computer-with-original-box-signed-by-steve Steve
Re: Aquarius (was Re: Apple 1)
That was one of the use cases of Sun's Display Postscript where another program on another host was able to get equal access to a window on an work-station. Sun or NeXT? - Ethan
Re: Aquarius (was Re: Apple 1)
mån 2020-06-15 klockan 09:25 -0400 skrev Ethan O'Toole via cctalk: > > > > That is wild! That would have been an interesting product. > > > The justification for the Cray was to experiment with what could be > > done > > if you had a Macintosh with the power of a Cray. It had a pretty > > fancy > > frame buffer attached to it and some pretty sophisticated anti- > > aliased > > rendering was produced. > > Frame buffer attached to Cray? Or Mac with a fancy framebuffer and > offloading to the Cray? Pretty wild. > That was one of the use cases of Sun's Display Postscript where another program on another host was able to get equal access to a window on an work-station.
Re: Apple 1
Who is Robert Cray? Any relation to Seymour? He's a musician. Jon That plugs up the eBay searches for Cray Computer posters. Ethan
Re: Apple 1
On 06/15/2020 11:59 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: On 6/15/20 4:44 PM, Justin Goldberg via cctalk wrote: Robert Cray always bragged that the newest Apple was designed with a Cray, whereas the newest Cray was designed with an Apple. A superlative example of the KISS principle, if it's true. Who is Robert Cray? Any relation to Seymour? He's a musician. Jon
Re: Apple 1
On 6/15/20 4:44 PM, Justin Goldberg via cctalk wrote: > Robert Cray always bragged that the newest Apple was designed with a Cray, > whereas the newest Cray was designed with an Apple. A superlative example > of the KISS principle, if it's true. > Who is Robert Cray? Any relation to Seymour? --Chuck
Re: Apple 1
Robert Cray always bragged that the newest Apple was designed with a Cray, whereas the newest Cray was designed with an Apple. A superlative example of the KISS principle, if it's true. On Sun, Jun 14, 2020, 10:16 PM Ethan O'Toole via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > > He didn't know of anyone doing much other with it either. I think it > was > > bought before there was a unix type OS under the Macos. > > thanks > > Jim > > https://wiki.c2.com/?AppleCrayComputer > > They bought it to use to design the next Macintosh CPU I thought (break > away from the 68000 but never did), but that page talks about electronics > layout. > > - Ethan >
Re: Aquarius (was Re: Apple 1)
On Mon, 15 Jun 2020 at 15:25, Ethan O'Toole via cctalk wrote: > > > Actually, Al was hired as an Apple Fellow in 1985. His first project was > > "Trojan" a 68000 mac on an ISA card that mixed EGA and square pixel Mac > > video. I was the Mac-side programmer on the project. Marketing killed it > > before it got from ATG to product development. > > That is wild! That would have been an interesting product. It certainly would. I never heard of this before. There is a technological precedent -- well, maybe not before, but equivalent, anyway. https://qlwiki.qlforum.co.uk/doku.php?id=qlwiki:qxl_card This is basically an enhanced (68040-based) Sinclair QL on an ISA card. It uses the DOS PC for all I/O, keeps its files in the DOS filesystem, etc., but it runs apps on its own processor in its own RAM. Given that the original QL had very slow stringy-floppy drives, fairly low-spec and quite slow graphics, this was quite a good, elegant compromise. Conceptually similar to the Acorn Springboard: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/acorn/Acorn_PC_ARM/PCW_Jan88_Springboard.pdf http://chrisacorns.computinghistory.org.uk/docs/Acorn/Brochures/Acorn_APP125_Springboard.pdf An ARM co-pro for a PC compatible, on an ISA card. But you had to write your own apps for the Springboard -- it wasn't Archimedes-compatible (and given that the Archie had very good sound, graphics and I/O for its time, it would have been horribly crippled if it was. The QXL card made a PC into a (partial) QL-compatible, able to run QL apps. A chap at ByteFest last summer had a QXL installed in an Amstrad ALT386, itself now a rare and collectible machine -- a very early 386 colour laptop, complete with a short ISA slot. So, 2 rare machines in one, and a powerful portable QL! Language issues meant I did not find out much more... http://www.bytefest.cz/ -- Liam Proven – Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk – gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lpro...@gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven – Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 – ČR (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053
Re: Aquarius (was Re: Apple 1)
Actually, Al was hired as an Apple Fellow in 1985. His first project was "Trojan" a 68000 mac on an ISA card that mixed EGA and square pixel Mac video. I was the Mac-side programmer on the project. Marketing killed it before it got from ATG to product development. That is wild! That would have been an interesting product. The justification for the Cray was to experiment with what could be done if you had a Macintosh with the power of a Cray. It had a pretty fancy frame buffer attached to it and some pretty sophisticated anti-aliased rendering was produced. Frame buffer attached to Cray? Or Mac with a fancy framebuffer and offloading to the Cray? Pretty wild. About the only video I know that escaped from Valley Green 3 was the title and end credits for "Pencil Test" which weren't produced on a Mac, they were done on the Cray (I was the person responsible for pulling all of the frame sequences together from the Mac II distributed render farm and generating the D1 tape). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fXPHlQuXWR0 -- : Ethan O'Toole
Re: Apple 1
That would be Aquarius. https://tenfourfox.blogspot.com/2019/12/and-now-for-something-completely_29.html http://intellivisionrevolution.com/files/resized/220082/811;384;6ada4a1cae75747bd8ee4a63b1e0e94b12f0592d.jpg :-) -- : Ethan O'Toole
Aquarius (was Re: Apple 1)
On 6/14/20 9:36 PM, Cameron Kaiser via cctalk wrote: He didn't know of anyone doing much other with it either.__ I think it was bought before there was a unix type OS under the Macos. https://wiki.c2.com/?AppleCrayComputer They bought it to use to design the next Macintosh CPU I thought That would be Aquarius. https://tenfourfox.blogspot.com/2019/12/and-now-for-something-completely_29.html "was brought in by Apple as outside expertise to try to rescue Aquarius." Actually, Al was hired as an Apple Fellow in 1985. His first project was "Trojan" a 68000 mac on an ISA card that mixed EGA and square pixel Mac video. I was the Mac-side programmer on the project. Marketing killed it before it got from ATG to product development. The justification for the Cray was to experiment with what could be done if you had a Macintosh with the power of a Cray. It had a pretty fancy frame buffer attached to it and some pretty sophisticated anti-aliased rendering was produced. About the only video I know that escaped from Valley Green 3 was the title and end credits for "Pencil Test" which weren't produced on a Mac, they were done on the Cray (I was the person responsible for pulling all of the frame sequences together from the Mac II distributed render farm and generating the D1 tape).
Re: Apple 1
Starting in 1987, future Mac product circuitry and VLSI designs were run on a Cray X-MP/48 for hardware and software simulations under Unicos Cray’s licensed version of Unix System V: Apple was the first company that Cray allowed to access their Network Systems Corporation (Minneapolis) developed high-speed channel, operating at 850Mbits per second, which Cray called its HSX channel. https://www.cbronline.com/news/apple_uses_cray_x_mp_and_unix_to_design_your_next_macintosh/ On Sun, Jun 14, 2020 at 8:16 PM Ethan O'Toole via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > > He didn't know of anyone doing much other with it either. I think it > was > > bought before there was a unix type OS under the Macos. > > thanks > > Jim > > https://wiki.c2.com/?AppleCrayComputer > > They bought it to use to design the next Macintosh CPU I thought (break > away from the 68000 but never did), but that page talks about electronics > layout. > > - Ethan >
Re: Apple 1
> > He didn't know of anyone doing much other with it either.__ I think it was > > bought before there was a unix type OS under the Macos. > > https://wiki.c2.com/?AppleCrayComputer > > They bought it to use to design the next Macintosh CPU I thought That would be Aquarius. https://tenfourfox.blogspot.com/2019/12/and-now-for-something-completely_29.html -- personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckai...@floodgap.com -- Just another Sojourner of the Dispersion (1 Peter 1:1) -
Re: Apple 1
He didn't know of anyone doing much other with it either. I think it was bought before there was a unix type OS under the Macos. thanks Jim https://wiki.c2.com/?AppleCrayComputer They bought it to use to design the next Macintosh CPU I thought (break away from the 68000 but never did), but that page talks about electronics layout. - Ethan
Re: Apple 1
On 6/13/2020 10:28 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: On 6/13/20 10:20 PM, jim stephens via cctalk wrote: Do they still have it? The Y-MP was replaced by a cray-ette in the early 90s In the end the main use for it was for doing backups with its tape robot A friend that worked there when the Cray showed up only used his login to learn unix command line programming such as it was. He didn't know of anyone doing much other with it either. I think it was bought before there was a unix type OS under the Macos. thanks Jim
Re: Apple 1
“Here i am, brain the size of a planet, and i’m controlling a robot that does tape backups” That's not uncommon for outdated (mini)supercomputers. Fast network and disk I/O make them well suited to the task. It's just a shame of all that nice vector hardware. Convex actively advocated the use of their older series as file and backup servers. Lots of the Convex C200 IPI disks I have show evidence show evidence of having been used as tape backup caches. Camiel
Re: Apple 1
“Here i am, brain the size of a planet, and i’m controlling a robot that does tape backups” > On Jun 14, 2020, at 6:28 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk > wrote: > > On 6/13/20 10:20 PM, jim stephens via cctalk wrote: >> Do they still have it? > > The Y-MP was replaced by a cray-ette in the early 90s > > In the end the main use for it was for doing backups > with its tape robot > > >
Re: Apple 1
On 6/13/20 10:20 PM, jim stephens via cctalk wrote: Do they still have it? The Y-MP was replaced by a cray-ette in the early 90s In the end the main use for it was for doing backups with its tape robot
Re: Apple 1
On 6/13/2020 12:22 PM, Ethan O'Toole via cctalk wrote: Oh, I'll sell you a Cray for like 1/4th that. Much better deal, way more metal and stuff. - Ethan I got a notice from ebay that an Apple 1 is up for sale: $1.5M plus $1 shipping, yikes! ebay item number: 174195921349 Doug -- : Ethan O'Toole Anyone know where the Apple Cray went? Do they still have it? Operational if they have it? thanks Jim
Re: Apple 1
Oh, I'll sell you a Cray for like 1/4th that. Much better deal, way more metal and stuff. - Ethan I got a notice from ebay that an Apple 1 is up for sale: $1.5M plus $1 shipping, yikes! ebay item number: 174195921349 Doug -- : Ethan O'Toole
Apple 1
I got a notice from ebay that an Apple 1 is up for sale: $1.5M plus $1 shipping, yikes! ebay item number: 174195921349 Doug
Re: Lots of Apple 1 computers @ VCF West
Tor Arntsen via cctalk writes: > On Mon, 8 Jul 2019 at 18:19, Chuck Guzis via cctalk > wrote: > >> What matters to me is [b]documentation[/b], however it's preserved. I'm >> often faced with a bit of old data and I need to know the details upon >> which it was fabricated. That has value to me. Al K has been >> invaluable in this respect. > > I collect all the documentation I can find (including my own old notes > when I can find them). It's really hard to figure out exactly how > something works when documentation is lost and there's nobody around > with the knowledge. This was by far the biggest challenge I had when writing the 3B2/400 simulator for SIMH. Documentation was scarce or nonexistent for almost every aspect of the 3B2 system board internals, and I had to work out a lot of it myself by watching a logic analyzer. Thankfully, as the emulator progressed and word got out, it attracted the attention of some people with very useful documentation who kindly offered it to me. I've been hoarding what I can find and scanning it as fast as possible to get it all archived online in digital form as well as maintaining the original physical copies. But as a result, I'm keenly aware of how much this stuff is ephemeral. There are still lots and lots of AT publications relating to the 3B2 that are (as far as I can tell) lost to history and probably gone forever. -Seth -- Seth Morabito Poulsbo, WA, USA w...@loomcom.com
Re: Lots of Apple 1 computers @ VCF West
On Tue, 9 Jul 2019 at 06:04, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > Be careful about taunting a time traveller. > He might read what you write and it might give him ideas. Oh no! Roko's basilisk! You've wok+++ATH NO CARRIER
Re: Lots of Apple 1 computers @ VCF West
On Mon, 8 Jul 2019 at 18:19, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > What matters to me is [b]documentation[/b], however it's preserved. I'm > often faced with a bit of old data and I need to know the details upon > which it was fabricated. That has value to me. Al K has been > invaluable in this respect. I collect all the documentation I can find (including my own old notes when I can find them). It's really hard to figure out exactly how something works when documentation is lost and there's nobody around with the knowledge. When I visited Ise shrine in Japan some years ago they were in the middle of building a completely new wooden bridge beside the existing one. They were building new temples as well. Turned out that every twenty years they routinely rebuild *everything*, including the items inside the temples and buildings. Then they tear down the old ones (and use the old material at other sites around the country). And still they claimed that the temples. bridges, items etc. had been there since around 1200 AD. I was a bit baffled about this, but when I had lunch in the nearest town a waiter noticed the foreigner and gave me a booklet to read. It was all explained there. It's simple enough: What they feel as important to preserve is the knowledge about how to build these things. The craftmanship and the artistry. 20 years is just about right - it's enough to hand over the craft to another generation, with overlap. And they've been doing this for hundreds of years. So, what is worth preserving is the *howto*, not the actual old things which would just detoriate more and more over time and eventually disappear. That's just "stuff", and immaterial, as it were. And, as I once witnessed a Viking ship replica going under in bad weather due to something not fully correct in the understanding of exactly how to construct a specific part of the bottom of the ship, I can fully appreciate the thinking. Knowledge gained over hundreds of years in wooden ship building can be lost over a generation or two, even if there's still a parallel tradition of building other types of boats. Which turned out not to be enough to understand how it was done. It can be painfully difficult to recreate, figure out, and document something that's lost, even if you have an old original in bad shape to look at. Which is why they've worked for decades at e.g. Roskilde in Denmark to recreate the knowledge. And the last time I visited that site they still couldn't build as well as the old builders, there was a newly built replica of a small boat where they had a beatifully preserved original nearby - the original still looked better. Give them a decade or two more, and it'll improve I'm sure.
Re: Lots of Apple 1 computers @ VCF West
Today I can announce that 10 original Apple 1 computers will be displayed at VCF West, and we're working on getting more. Why? That is, what’s the advantage of having 10+ instead of one or two? Awesomeness. The Apple I never did very much, so is there really much to actually show on them? You'd be surprised. There is a whole library of software out there. I hope they’re not crowding out anything Nope. Plenty of room for everyone.
Re: Lots of Apple 1 computers @ VCF West
Yes Evan, you mentioned that. I know; ergo my use of a smiley there...
Re: Lots of Apple 1 computers @ VCF West
On Mon, Jul 08, 2019 at 09:04:38PM -0700, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Tue, 9 Jul 2019, Tomasz Rola via cctalk wrote: > >That is him. > >I thought that some fun could be made of him: invent some stories [...] > > Be careful about taunting a time traveller. > He might read what you write and it might give him ideas. Ah. Ok, you have convinced me. Sorry, John Titor. BTW, you would like a ride to the past? I would like a ride to the future. Although from what I have seen so far, maybe not... -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_r...@bigfoot.com **
Re: Lots of Apple 1 computers @ VCF West
On Tue, 9 Jul 2019, Tomasz Rola via cctalk wrote: That is him. I thought that some fun could be made of him: invent some stories about how he conducts various petty crimes in a past in order to get hold of many precious classic computers. So that he could easily retire like some of use would like to (but no way, no Apple-1 for us). Be careful about taunting a time traveller. He might read what you write and it might give him ideas. Then you might suddenly find that he has become your grandfather. Or his own grandfather.
Re: Lots of Apple 1 computers @ VCF West
On Mon, Jul 08, 2019 at 10:02:27PM -0500, John Herron wrote: > Maybe I should Google this but I thought John Titor was the man claiming to > be from the future and looking for an IBM 5100 for the ability to run APL. That is him. > I'm not familiar with any apple 1 story but I remember him posting and > calling in to a night time radio show. I didn't follow everything so I > coulda missed something or maybe it was a different Titor claimee. I thought that some fun could be made of him: invent some stories about how he conducts various petty crimes in a past in order to get hold of many precious classic computers. So that he could easily retire like some of use would like to (but no way, no Apple-1 for us). So, he could be sitting now (his "now", in the year, say, 2050), reading archives of this group and spraying his pinacolada on the monitor when he reads about his fictional misdeeds. And those stories would have been from his past, so he could not go back to correct me, for example, without changing his timeline. Well, on the other hand, if he is some kind of local incognito saint in the group, and I had no idea, than maybe making up stories about him is not the best idea. Is there any better way to play joke on John Titor? > Maybe he'd be one of the folks who brings one? :-) Yes, and get caught in a photo... -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_r...@bigfoot.com **
Re: Lots of Apple 1 computers @ VCF West
On Mon, Jul 8, 2019, 1:09 PM Tomasz Rola via cctalk wrote: Or even how John Titor swindled Apple I board supposed to be owned by Guy D from under his nose and now sits on many such boards, retired and sipping pinacolada. On Mon, 8 Jul 2019, John Herron via cctalk wrote: Maybe I should Google this but I thought John Titor was the man claiming to be from the future and looking for an IBM 5100 for the ability to run APL. I'm not familiar with any apple 1 story but I remember him posting and calling in to a night time radio show. I didn't follow everything so I coulda missed something or maybe it was a different Titor claimee. Maybe he'd be one of the folks who brings one? :-) I have publicly offered: If John Titor will give me a ONE WAY ride to 1960, I will get him his 5100, with both BASIC AND APL, and make some investments to fund his entire project. The investments will include only a few Apple 1 computers, because they will need to be discreet and low profile, although it would be very tempting to make a few "adjustments" to history. If the ride is ROUND-TRIP, then all he gets is a good look at a 5100. I'll take the long way back.
Re: Lots of Apple 1 computers @ VCF West
Maybe I should Google this but I thought John Titor was the man claiming to be from the future and looking for an IBM 5100 for the ability to run APL. I'm not familiar with any apple 1 story but I remember him posting and calling in to a night time radio show. I didn't follow everything so I coulda missed something or maybe it was a different Titor claimee. Maybe he'd be one of the folks who brings one? :-) On Mon, Jul 8, 2019, 1:09 PM Tomasz Rola via cctalk wrote: > Or even how John Titor swindled Apple I > board supposed to be owned by Guy D from under his nose and now sits > on many such boards, retired and sipping pinacolada. >
Re: Lots of Apple 1 computers @ VCF West
On Jul 5, 2019, at 1:52 PM, Evan Koblentz via cctalk wrote: Today I can announce that 10 original Apple 1 computers will be displayed at VCF West, and we're working on getting more. On Mon, 8 Jul 2019, Chris Hanson via cctalk wrote: Why? That is, what’s the advantage of having 10+ instead of one or two? I have heard that there is quite a bit of variation from one to the next. But I haven't had the chance to see several side by side to compare. It hadn't yet reached the stage of mass production of absolutley identical units. The PEOPLE who have them, and the stories about how they got into it are also interesting. Even the people who bought into it more recently. "WHY?" "If you're willing to pay that kind of money, maybe you should come look at some of the stuff that I no longer need." The Apple I never did very much, so is there really much to actually show on them? I hope they’re not crowding out anything more interesting. Not to worry. Evan is very capable of expanding the space if it gets too crowded, rather than turning away anything that is more interesting. If anything, having the crowds all clustered around the "artifacts of divine provenance" will make it less crowded around the good stuff! I hope that my health holds up well enough to fill the consignment area with a few cubic meters of stuff that I need to get out of my house. And, not to worry, I will not be bringing any Apple 1 computers. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com
Re: Lots of Apple 1 computers @ VCF West
On Jul 5, 2019, at 1:52 PM, Evan Koblentz via cctalk wrote: > > Today I can announce that 10 original Apple 1 computers will be displayed at > VCF West, and we're working on getting more. Why? That is, what’s the advantage of having 10+ instead of one or two? The Apple I never did very much, so is there really much to actually show on them? I hope they’re not crowding out anything more interesting. -- Chris
Re: Lots of Apple 1 computers @ VCF West
On Mon, 8 Jul 2019, Evan Koblentz via cctalk wrote: The only people growing up today that would pay anything like that amount, would only pay that much because they expected to make a profit. It is just an investment. Don't underestimate the force of "bragging rights" to people who can afford such things. Many of them buy an Apple 1 because they can, not because it's an investment. Anyway: we're having at least 10 of 'em at VCF West, did I mention that? :) To some yuppies, the cost is something to brag about being able to afford. To the truly wealthy, it is irrelevant. If Bill Gates wanted one, he would not have to economize elsewhere to afford it. And there are a lot of billionaires today. It would be a trivial expense for the nostalgia, or the "I wanted one, and couldn't get one then; but now I can." For your panel, a few questions to put to them: 1) Did you get one when they were current, or more recently? 2) For each of those two groups, WHY did you get one? 3) Did you later get an Apple ][?
