Re: P112 Floppy Controller

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 4/23/22 13:12, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
> On Sat, 23 Apr 2022, Craig Ruff via cctech wrote:
>> The P112's floppy controller is the one in the SMSC FDC37C665IR
>> SuperIO chip. The data sheet states it is a 2.88 MB "Licensed CMOS
>> 765B Floppy Disk Controller" and claims 100% IBM compatibility (for
>> what that's worth).
> 
> 2.8M (it is not "2.88" unless MB is 1024,000) means that it includes a
> 1000K data transfer rate
> 
> 765B means essentially the same FDC as PC (NEC 765 based)
> 

I think I've got the SMSC Super I/O in one of my systems.   Recollection
is that it does FM just fine.

Re: P112 Floppy Controller

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

On Sat, 23 Apr 2022, Craig Ruff via cctech wrote:
The P112's floppy controller is the one in the SMSC FDC37C665IR SuperIO 
chip. The data sheet states it is a 2.88 MB "Licensed CMOS 765B Floppy 
Disk Controller" and claims 100% IBM compatibility (for what that's 
worth).


2.8M (it is not "2.88" unless MB is 1024,000) means that it includes a 
1000K data transfer rate


765B means essentially the same FDC as PC (NEC 765 based)

Does it also support FM?   125K data transfer rate (TRS80, Early Osborne)

Re: P112 Floppy Controller

[Craig Ruff via cctalk]

The P112's floppy controller is the one in the SMSC FDC37C665IR SuperIO chip. 
The data sheet states it is a 2.88 MB "Licensed CMOS 765B Floppy Disk 
Controller" and claims 100% IBM compatibility (for what that's worth).

Re: P112

[Hector Peraza via cctalk]

On 12/2/19 6:10 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
> It starts out with no partitions and claims the partition table
> is not a valid P112 table. The "w" command fixes that but the
> table is still empty. Interestingly enough, a 64M CF in an IDE
> adapter works with FDISK. but then when I try to "INIT" it under
> RSX180 it prints a stream of garbage on the screen and does nothing
> to the disk/CF.

You found a bug in the INIt program: it was supposed to output an error
message saying that the partition is bigger than 32M and then exit,
but some reason the address of the message went to the wrong register
pair, and I never tested for that case. I've uploaded a fix, as well as
new floppy images.

Note also that FDISK is a rather old program, and as such will not
work properly with modern drives larger than 256Mb, and it doesn't
do LBA either (time to write a new version?).

Hector.

Re: P112

[Mark G Thomas via cctalk]

Hi Bill,

On Wed, Dec 04, 2019 at 01:06:39AM +, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
> On 12/3/19 7:51 PM, Craig Ruff via cctech wrote:
> > Just in case someone else hasn't already responded, the P112 does not use 
> > DOS style fdisk partitioning for a hard disk. It is done in the BIOS image, 
> > and then the logical disks have to be initialized. This is described in the 
> > "P112 GIDE Construction.pdf" document.
> > 
> > I've only used 3.5" floppies, which work fine. You can also attach a PATA 
> > CD-ROM drive and access disks with a program that escapes my memory at the 
> > moment.
> > 
> 
> Along this line I have solved one problem.  I mentioned INIT in
> RSX180 printing gibberish on the screen when trying to init a
> hard disk partition where it had worked on a floppy.  Problem
> was the size of the partitions.  I had tried just making one
> partition for the test I learned that FDISK will make partitions
> too big for any of the P112 OSes.  I now have a hard disk with
> 5 partitions to play with.  On to the  next problem.
> 
> bill

I have a pair of P112 systems, both with GIDE interfaces, booting CP/M from 
CF cards successfully. I have not done anything with RSX180 though.

I have been meaning to try and get one reading/writing 8", ideally 3270 
format, CP/M floppies, but have not gotten around to working on this yet, 
and have no idea how easy or difficult that might be.

When I put these together and was getting them working initially, Terry 
Gulczynski was very helpful. See his site at http://www.stack180.com/ 
You may want to get the latest P112 ROM image and corresponding CF card 
image from his site.

Mark

-- 
Mark G. Thomas , KC3DRE

Re: P112

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

On 12/3/19 8:15 PM, Fred Cisin via cctech wrote:
> On Wed, 4 Dec 2019, Bill Gunshannon via cctech wrote:
>> Along this line I have solved one problem.  I mentioned INIT in
>> RSX180 printing gibberish on the screen when trying to init a
>> hard disk partition where it had worked on a floppy.  Problem
>> was the size of the partitions.  I had tried just making one
>> partition for the test I learned that FDISK will make partitions
>> too big for any of the P112 OSes.  I now have a hard disk with
>> 5 partitions to play with.  On to the  next problem.
> 
> Is it a specific size limit?
> (something on the order of number of bits for block number?)

Don't know, but I suspect it's around 32M.  I seem to remember
seeing something mentioned somewhere.  I just divided a 42M
Seagate into 5 partitions to play with.  I may test the limits
eventually but for right now I would just like to get some of
the OSes loaded on the hard disk so I can work with them.
Especially RSX180 as I have some other plans for that one.

bill

Re: P112

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

On Wed, 4 Dec 2019, Bill Gunshannon via cctech wrote:

Along this line I have solved one problem.  I mentioned INIT in
RSX180 printing gibberish on the screen when trying to init a
hard disk partition where it had worked on a floppy.  Problem
was the size of the partitions.  I had tried just making one
partition for the test I learned that FDISK will make partitions
too big for any of the P112 OSes.  I now have a hard disk with
5 partitions to play with.  On to the  next problem.


Is it a specific size limit?
(something on the order of number of bits for block number?)

Re: P112

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

On 12/3/19 7:51 PM, Craig Ruff via cctech wrote:
> Just in case someone else hasn't already responded, the P112 does not use DOS 
> style fdisk partitioning for a hard disk. It is done in the BIOS image, and 
> then the logical disks have to be initialized. This is described in the "P112 
> GIDE Construction.pdf" document.
> 
> I've only used 3.5" floppies, which work fine. You can also attach a PATA 
> CD-ROM drive and access disks with a program that escapes my memory at the 
> moment.
> 

Along this line I have solved one problem.  I mentioned INIT in
RSX180 printing gibberish on the screen when trying to init a
hard disk partition where it had worked on a floppy.  Problem
was the size of the partitions.  I had tried just making one
partition for the test I learned that FDISK will make partitions
too big for any of the P112 OSes.  I now have a hard disk with
5 partitions to play with.  On to the  next problem.

bill

Re: P112

[Craig Ruff via cctalk]

Just in case someone else hasn't already responded, the P112 does not use DOS 
style fdisk partitioning for a hard disk. It is done in the BIOS image, and 
then the logical disks have to be initialized. This is described in the "P112 
GIDE Construction.pdf" document.

I've only used 3.5" floppies, which work fine. You can also attach a PATA 
CD-ROM drive and access disks with a program that escapes my memory at the 
moment.

Re: P112

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

On 12/2/19 8:36 PM, Dennis Boone via cctalk wrote:
>   > The menu you get when you hit Escape on startup has an option for
>   > setting a floppy as 8".  Mine is ROM 5.7 which I believe is the next
>   > to last.  Unless it is different than the other CP/M systems I have
>   > FORMAT should have no hardware dependent code in it.  It was the OS
>   > that tracked and controlled what the underlying format of the
>   > floppies were.
> 
> That's literally the only thing I could find.  I can't see any place
> where a DPB is defined for an 8" drive.  If the DPB is wrong, FORMAT
> will misbehave.  I'd be utterly unsurprised if more parameters than just
> cylinder count weren't wrong.
> 
> You might try examining the active DPBs for the system to see what all
> it's using, and even correct it with a monitor or debugger.

I put 8" on a back burner for the moment.

> 
>   > > I haven't had mine out in a while, but last I did, the GIDE did
>   > > work.  Seems like there was some ordering of operations on HD setup
>   > > that I did wrong the first time.
> 
> The more I think about this, the more I think maybe the thing that
> "fixed" mine was wiping the drive before trying FDISK.

Wiping with what.

> 
> You didn't show the full FDISK session, or a listing of what partitions
> it thinks are there to begin with.  That might help shake free thoughts
> from others.

It starts out with no partitions and claims the partition table
is not a valid P112 table.  The "w" command fixes that but the
table is still empty.  Interestingly enough, a 64M CF in an IDE
adapter works with FDISK. but then when I try to "INIT" it under
RSX180 it prints a stream of garbage on the screen and does nothing
to the disk/CF.

Not sure how much longer I am likely to keep beating my head
against the wall.

bill

Re: P112

[Dennis Boone via cctalk]

 > The menu you get when you hit Escape on startup has an option for
 > setting a floppy as 8".  Mine is ROM 5.7 which I believe is the next
 > to last.  Unless it is different than the other CP/M systems I have
 > FORMAT should have no hardware dependent code in it.  It was the OS
 > that tracked and controlled what the underlying format of the
 > floppies were.

That's literally the only thing I could find.  I can't see any place
where a DPB is defined for an 8" drive.  If the DPB is wrong, FORMAT
will misbehave.  I'd be utterly unsurprised if more parameters than just
cylinder count weren't wrong.

You might try examining the active DPBs for the system to see what all
it's using, and even correct it with a monitor or debugger.

 > > I haven't had mine out in a while, but last I did, the GIDE did
 > > work.  Seems like there was some ordering of operations on HD setup
 > > that I did wrong the first time.

The more I think about this, the more I think maybe the thing that
"fixed" mine was wiping the drive before trying FDISK.

You didn't show the full FDISK session, or a listing of what partitions
it thinks are there to begin with.  That might help shake free thoughts
from others.

Does dgriffi lurk on this list?

De

Re: P112

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

On 12/2/19 4:55 PM, Dennis Boone via cctalk wrote:
>   > Well, I have the dBit FDADAP.  Works great.  I have used them before
>   > on a PC to access PDP-11 disks from PUTR and E11.  The P112 claims to
>   > support 8" but I am finding it unlikely.  If it (well, at least the
>   > OSes it runs) don't even know it only has 77 tracks I can't see how
>   > anyone has done 8" disks on it.
> 
> I went spelunking in the ROM and BIOS sources the other day, and I don't
> see any 8" drive stuff in there at all -- it's all 3.5" and 5.25".  I
> looked at FORMAT too.  Am I looking at old code?

The menu you get when you hit Escape on startup has an option
for setting a floppy as 8".  Mine is ROM 5.7 which I believe
is the next to last.  Unless it is different than the other
CP/M systems I have FORMAT should have no hardware dependent
code in it.  It was the OS that tracked and controlled what
the underlying format of the floppies were.

> 
>   > Why am I getting this sneaking suspicion that none of this stuff
>   > actually works?
> 
> I haven't had mine out in a while, but last I did, the GIDE did work.
> Seems like there was some ordering of operations on HD setup that I did
> wrong the first time.

The GIDE seems to work.  It appears to be FDISK that is broken.
Given that, unless people had custom versions of FDISK I fail
to see how anyone set up a hard disk on a P112.

> 
> It doesn't help that there are no docs for the thing other than whatever
> paper came with it.

Thus the reason for me searching places like this for help.  :-)

> 
> Sanity check your software versions?  Mixing and matching variants can
> be problematic since there are several generations and several forks of
> the P112 and GIDE stuff; and there's at least one version of FORMAT
> that's reputed to have a serious bug.

No mix or match.  Just using the images provided on the CD that
came with it.  FORMAT works OK for 3.5" disks.  I have had no
luck trying to FORMAT 5.25" or 8" floppies.  And I can't even
get that far on a hard disk.

bill

Re: P112

[Dennis Boone via cctalk]

 > Well, I have the dBit FDADAP.  Works great.  I have used them before
 > on a PC to access PDP-11 disks from PUTR and E11.  The P112 claims to
 > support 8" but I am finding it unlikely.  If it (well, at least the
 > OSes it runs) don't even know it only has 77 tracks I can't see how
 > anyone has done 8" disks on it.

I went spelunking in the ROM and BIOS sources the other day, and I don't
see any 8" drive stuff in there at all -- it's all 3.5" and 5.25".  I
looked at FORMAT too.  Am I looking at old code?

 > Why am I getting this sneaking suspicion that none of this stuff
 > actually works?

I haven't had mine out in a while, but last I did, the GIDE did work.
Seems like there was some ordering of operations on HD setup that I did
wrong the first time.

It doesn't help that there are no docs for the thing other than whatever
paper came with it.

Sanity check your software versions?  Mixing and matching variants can
be problematic since there are several generations and several forks of
the P112 and GIDE stuff; and there's at least one version of FORMAT
that's reputed to have a serious bug.

De

Re: P112

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

On 12/2/19 11:31 AM, Lamar Owen wrote:
> 
> 
> As far as 8-inch drives are concerned, you would need to do exactly 
> everything you would need to do to hook up an 8-inch drive to a PC, 
> since the P112 uses a PC SuperIO chip for the FDC, and the floppy 
> headers have PC pinouts and signal meanings (unlike the CPU280.). 
> The dBit FDADAP or similar would be needed to generate TG43 as well as 
> translate the pinout correctly.  I haven't tried single-density support 
> on the P112, so don't know if that would work or not, but the SuperIO 
> chip used should be able to do that.
> 
> 

Well, I have the dBit FDADAP.  Works great.  I have used them
before on a PC to access PDP-11 disks from PUTR and E11.  The
P112 claims to support 8" but I am finding it unlikely.  If it
(well, at least the OSes it runs) don't even know it only has
77 tracks I can't see how anyone has done 8" disks on it.

And then I went on to try the GIDE.  I can't get FDISK to
create partitions of any kind.

I get

Command (h for help) : n
Partition number (1-8) : 1
First cylinder (1-17455, default 1) : 1
Value out of range

And that is what I get no matter what value I enter.

Why am I getting this sneaking suspicion that none of this
stuff actually works?

bill

Re: P112

[Lamar Owen via cctalk]

On 11/29/19 7:01 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
Let's try again with the right name in the Subject line! It's not 
really classic (although it does try to pretend to be but does anyone 
here do anything with the P112 SBC? I am trying to get 8" disks 
running on it but I am seeing some rather strange behavior.
Well, the P112 is a classic of sorts, being a mid-1990's design (much 
like the CPU280 from Tilmann Reh that I 'revived' a couple of years 
back, and still have PCBs leftover :-) ).  The P112 kit was, up 
until a few months ago, still available from David Griffith (661.org, 
which you've already found).  I bought two while I was buying a few 
years back, and built up one of them, which I still use a bit with a 
GIDE from Terry.  I am actually planning to port the TRS-80 Model 4's 
LS-DOS 6 to it for fun, but haven't had time to work too much with it.  
I was actually thinking about fabbing a few boards to try out faster 
Z80182 chips (officially there is a 33MHz version that has been 
overclocked by some to well over that speed) rather than risk 
desoldering the 16MHz '182 from one of the two kit boards I bought, so, 
for David Griffith's benefit, I would be interested in a bare board or 
three myself if he decides to fab some.  Sourcing the SuperIO and doing 
the fine-pitch SMD soldering will be a bit of a challenge, but worth it 
I believe.


As far as 8-inch drives are concerned, you would need to do exactly 
everything you would need to do to hook up an 8-inch drive to a PC, 
since the P112 uses a PC SuperIO chip for the FDC, and the floppy 
headers have PC pinouts and signal meanings (unlike the CPU280.).  
The dBit FDADAP or similar would be needed to generate TG43 as well as 
translate the pinout correctly.  I haven't tried single-density support 
on the P112, so don't know if that would work or not, but the SuperIO 
chip used should be able to do that.

Re: P112 [Don Maslin Archive]

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 12/1/19 2:40 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:

> 
> TG43 is absolutely NOT needed for reading.

TG43 is also referred to as "RWC"  reduced write current.   Mostly
useful for FM recording; MFM uses precompensation, which subtly shifts
the timing of write pulses.

--Chuck

Re: P112 [Don Maslin Archive]

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

On Sun, 1 Dec 2019, David Griffith via cctalk wrote:
On the 8" drive question, I haven't done it myself, but I've received 
reports from people who've successfully used them with the P112.  It 
involves pretending they're HD 5.25" drives and using a hardware shim to 
deliver more current when writing to tracks greater than X.  I don't 
recall the specifics though.


As bill mentioned, though, 1.2M drives have 80 tracks; 8" have 77 tracks. 
Otherwise, the 1.2M is a 5.25" version of an 8" drive in most respects.
In fact, the first one that I ever got (at a swap) was a Mitsubishi, that 
had a 50 pin connector!



"TG43"
"Standard" (well, they sorta almost were) 8" drives, when they are on a 
track greater then cylinder #43 use a reduced current when writing.
Some drives expect a signal on pin 2 from the FDC to tell them; some have 
internal support for it, with the drive keeping track of the current 
track, and don't need that signal (such as Shugart 860, and the later 
versions of Tandon 848 (1E?, 2E?))


Disk controllers intended for 8" drives will usually have it.
PC controllers do not include it.

The DBIT FDADAP adapter (that I think Bill is using) handles it (in 
addition to the 34 pin to 50 pin cable pinouts)  Recent ones also have a 2 
digit display of track number.   Seek errors are not unknown, 
especially if the track to track step time is faster than the drive can 
keep up with (cf. Qume 142), so it is sometimes necessary to do a seek to 
track 0 and count steps back in again, to correct track number.



TG43 is absolutely NOT needed for reading.

--
Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com

Re: P112 [Don Maslin Archive]

[geneb via cctalk]

On Sun, 1 Dec 2019, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote:


On Sun, Dec 1, 2019, 12:09 PM Al Kossow via cctalk 
wrote:




Here's the archive

http://www.retroarchive.org/maslin/



HERE is the archive

https://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102703903

Another curator and I went down to San Diego and both ended up with heat
exhaustion
recovering it from a storage unit in the middle of summer.

you're welcome..



Thank you.

Btw, how does one access this archive?


You don't.

g.

--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

Re: P112 [Don Maslin Archive]

[geneb via cctalk]

On Sun, 1 Dec 2019, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:




Here's the archive

http://www.retroarchive.org/maslin/



HERE is the archive

https://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102703903

Another curator and I went down to San Diego and both ended up with heat 
exhaustion
recovering it from a storage unit in the middle of summer.


It looks like a really cool list of stuff that nobody has access to...

Thanks!

g.

--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

Re: P112 [Don Maslin Archive]

[Warner Losh via cctalk]

On Sun, Dec 1, 2019, 12:09 PM Al Kossow via cctalk 
wrote:

>
> > Here's the archive
> >
> > http://www.retroarchive.org/maslin/
>
>
> HERE is the archive
>
> https://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102703903
>
> Another curator and I went down to San Diego and both ended up with heat
> exhaustion
> recovering it from a storage unit in the middle of summer.
>
> you're welcome..
>

Thank you.

Btw, how does one access this archive?

Warner

>
>

Re: P112 [Don Maslin Archive]

[David Griffith via cctalk]

On December 1, 2019 11:09:29 AM PST, Al Kossow via cctalk 
 wrote:
>
>> Here's the archive
>> 
>> http://www.retroarchive.org/maslin/
>
>
>HERE is the archive
>
>https://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102703903
>
>Another curator and I went down to San Diego and both ended up with
>heat exhaustion
>recovering it from a storage unit in the middle of summer.
>
>you're welcome..

Thanks.  I remember that summer when I sold several of Don's machines for his 
niece.
-- 
David Griffith
d...@661.org

Re: P112 [Don Maslin Archive]

[Al Kossow via cctalk]

> Here's the archive
> 
> http://www.retroarchive.org/maslin/


HERE is the archive

https://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102703903

Another curator and I went down to San Diego and both ended up with heat 
exhaustion
recovering it from a storage unit in the middle of summer.

you're welcome..

Re: P112 [Don Maslin Archive]

[David Griffith via cctalk]

On December 1, 2019 9:52:03 AM PST, jim stephens via cctalk 
 wrote:
>
>
>On 12/1/2019 8:19 AM, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote:
>>
>> On 2019/11/30 23:32:55 -0800, jim stephens via cctalk wrote:
>>> On 11/30/2019 9:45 PM, Eric Dittman via cctalk wrote:
 On 11/30/2019 8:34 PM, jim stephens via cctalk wrote:
>
>>
>> [snip]
>>
>>>
>>> Links.txt
>>>
>>
>> [snip]
>>
>>> http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/img/index.htm
>>>  Daves Old Computers - Disk/Software Images. Boot disks for lots
>>>  of different vintage computers are here. It's not nearly the
>>>  size of Don Maslin's lost archive, but it's a start.
>>>
>>
>> I don't keep up with CP/M etc but I thought I recall it being
>> announced that Don Maslin's lost archive had been recovered?
>>
>Here's the archive
>
>http://www.retroarchive.org/maslin/
>
>P112 I think is way newer than anything related though.

Correct.

On the 8" drive question, I haven't done it myself, but I've received reports 
from people who've successfully used them with the P112.  It involves 
pretending they're HD 5.25" drives and using a hardware shim to deliver more 
current when writing to tracks greater than X.  I don't recall the specifics 
though.

BTW, I'm the one who's been selling them since Dave Brookes stopped doing so.  
I'm out of boards again and probably won't be doing any more runs with 
surface-mounts preinstalled on account of the difficulty of finding large 
quantities of new and pristine super-IO chips.  I might do a new run of naked 
boards.
-- 
David Griffith
d...@661.org

Re: P112 [Don Maslin Archive]

[jim stephens via cctalk]

On 12/1/2019 8:19 AM, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote:


On 2019/11/30 23:32:55 -0800, jim stephens via cctalk wrote:

On 11/30/2019 9:45 PM, Eric Dittman via cctalk wrote:

On 11/30/2019 8:34 PM, jim stephens via cctalk wrote:




[snip]



Links.txt



[snip]


http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/img/index.htm
 Daves Old Computers - Disk/Software Images. Boot disks for lots
 of different vintage computers are here. It's not nearly the
 size of Don Maslin's lost archive, but it's a start.



I don't keep up with CP/M etc but I thought I recall it being
announced that Don Maslin's lost archive had been recovered?


Here's the archive

http://www.retroarchive.org/maslin/

P112 I think is way newer than anything related though.

Regards,
Peter Coghlan.

Re: P112

[Peter Coghlan via cctalk]

On 2019/11/30 23:32:55 -0800, jim stephens via cctalk wrote:

On 11/30/2019 9:45 PM, Eric Dittman via cctalk wrote:

On 11/30/2019 8:34 PM, jim stephens via cctalk wrote:




[snip]



Links.txt



[snip]


http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/img/index.htm
     Daves Old Computers - Disk/Software Images. Boot disks for lots
     of different vintage computers are here. It's not nearly the
     size of Don Maslin's lost archive, but it's a start.



I don't keep up with CP/M etc but I thought I recall it being
announced that Don Maslin's lost archive had been recovered?

Regards,
Peter Coghlan.

Re: P112

[Eric Dittman via cctalk]

On 11/30/2019 8:34 PM, jim stephens via cctalk wrote:



On 11/30/2019 6:15 PM, Richard Cini via cctalk wrote:
 The current P112 is a reissue from years ago, right? I 
remember I had one — and I may still have it somewhere — but I only 
used it with 3.5” drives. Somehow I think it was built that way by 
design (the board outline fit on a drive).
I don’t know how available the code is, but I would look at the 
firmware on the board. To me it sounds like it has a bad drive 
definition. The 8272 is pretty easy to program for (I use it on my 
IMSAI).
As an aside, I use a modified YD-380 (5.25” HD) drive to replace the 
8” drives on my IMSAI so as a quick test you could use one of those. 
At least it can step to 80 tracks and has the same speed and bit rate. 
I have instructions on my site how to use it.

Rich

I have a archive and a board which I bought with the TCP option, as well 
as CF adapter, etc.


I can share it if it's not available online

Here is the contents I have.

-rw-r--r--+ 1 1003 nogroup 915852 Sep  9  2000 bootdisk.img.gz
drwxrwxrwx+ 1 1003 nogroup    270 Oct  9  2014 daveb
drwxrwxrwx+ 1   98  98    674 Apr  9  2018 downloads-stack180
drwxrwxrwx+ 1   98  98    274 Apr  9  2018 gide
drwxrwxrwx+ 1   98  98    954 Apr  9  2018 hal-bower
drwxr-xr-x+ 1 1003 nogroup    574 Oct  9  2014 p112
drwxrwxrwx+ 1   98  98    552 Apr  9  2018 p112-2018
-rw-r--r--+ 1 1003 nogroup 331632 Sep 19  2014 p112-doc.pdf
-rw-r--r--+ 1 1003 nogroup  14305 Sep  9  2000 rawrite.exe
-rw-r--r--+ 1 1003 nogroup 357891 Oct 22  2005 sc102205.img.gz
-rw-r--r--+ 1 1003 nogroup 445535 Nov 11  2005 sc05.img.gz
-rw-r--r--+ 1 1003 nogroup 436332 Nov 30  2005 sc113005.img.gz
drwxr-xr-x+ 1 1003 nogroup   3660 Oct  9  2014 tcj-archive
drwxr-xr-x+ 1 1003 nogroup    268 Oct  9  2014 web
-rw-r--r--+ 1 1003 nogroup 660331 Oct 17  2005 zs101805.img.gz
-rw-r--r--+ 1 1003 nogroup 513625 Oct 21  2005 zs102205.img.gz
-rw-r--r--+ 1 1003 nogroup 612086 Nov 11  2005 zs05.img.gz
-rw-r--r--+ 1 1003 nogroup 552969 Nov 30  2005 zs113005.img.gz
drwxr-xr-x+ 1 1003 nogroup    260 Oct  9  2014 zsdos
-rw-r--r--+ 1 1003 nogroup 554479 Apr 22  2009 zsdos.pdf


What's in the p112-2018 directory?

Re: P112

[Bill Degnan via cctalk]

On Sat, Nov 30, 2019, 9:34 PM jim stephens via cctalk 
wrote:

>
>
> On 11/30/2019 6:15 PM, Richard Cini via cctalk wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >   The current P112 is a reissue from years ago, right? I remember I
> had one — and I may still have it somewhere — but I only used it with 3.5”
> drives. Somehow I think it was built that way by design (the board outline
> fit on a drive).
> > I don’t know how available the code is, but I would look at the firmware
> on the board. To me it sounds like it has a bad drive definition. The 8272
> is pretty easy to program for (I use it on my IMSAI).
> > As an aside, I use a modified YD-380 (5.25” HD) drive to replace the 8”
> drives on my IMSAI so as a quick test you could use one of those. At least
> it can step to 80 tracks and has the same speed and bit rate. I have
> instructions on my site how to use it.
> > Rich
> >
> I have a archive and a board which I bought with the TCP option, as well
> as CF adapter, etc.
>
> I can share it if it's not available online
>
> Here is the contents I have.
>
> -rw-r--r--+ 1 1003 nogroup 915852 Sep  9  2000 bootdisk.img.gz
> drwxrwxrwx+ 1 1003 nogroup270 Oct  9  2014 daveb
> drwxrwxrwx+ 1   98  98674 Apr  9  2018 downloads-stack180
> drwxrwxrwx+ 1   98  98274 Apr  9  2018 gide
> drwxrwxrwx+ 1   98  98954 Apr  9  2018 hal-bower
> drwxr-xr-x+ 1 1003 nogroup574 Oct  9  2014 p112
> drwxrwxrwx+ 1   98  98552 Apr  9  2018 p112-2018
> -rw-r--r--+ 1 1003 nogroup 331632 Sep 19  2014 p112-doc.pdf
> -rw-r--r--+ 1 1003 nogroup  14305 Sep  9  2000 rawrite.exe
> -rw-r--r--+ 1 1003 nogroup 357891 Oct 22  2005 sc102205.img.gz
> -rw-r--r--+ 1 1003 nogroup 445535 Nov 11  2005 sc05.img.gz
> -rw-r--r--+ 1 1003 nogroup 436332 Nov 30  2005 sc113005.img.gz
> drwxr-xr-x+ 1 1003 nogroup   3660 Oct  9  2014 tcj-archive
> drwxr-xr-x+ 1 1003 nogroup268 Oct  9  2014 web
> -rw-r--r--+ 1 1003 nogroup 660331 Oct 17  2005 zs101805.img.gz
> -rw-r--r--+ 1 1003 nogroup 513625 Oct 21  2005 zs102205.img.gz
> -rw-r--r--+ 1 1003 nogroup 612086 Nov 11  2005 zs05.img.gz
> -rw-r--r--+ 1 1003 nogroup 552969 Nov 30  2005 zs113005.img.gz
> drwxr-xr-x+ 1 1003 nogroup260 Oct  9  2014 zsdos
> -rw-r--r--+ 1 1003 nogroup 554479 Apr 22  2009 zsdos.pdf
>

Today at our workshop meeting we got one of these up and running.  We have
worshops in Kennett Square monthly if you're in the Philadelphia area.  I
can put you in touch with the owner off line if you'd like.
Bill

>

Re: P112

[jim stephens via cctalk]

On 11/30/2019 6:15 PM, Richard Cini via cctalk wrote:
   
   
   
 
 	The current P112 is a reissue from years ago, right? I remember I had one — and I may still have it somewhere — but I only used it with 3.5” drives. Somehow I think it was built that way by design (the board outline fit on a drive).

I don’t know how available the code is, but I would look at the firmware on the 
board. To me it sounds like it has a bad drive definition. The 8272 is pretty 
easy to program for (I use it on my IMSAI).
As an aside, I use a modified YD-380 (5.25” HD) drive to replace the 8” drives 
on my IMSAI so as a quick test you could use one of those. At least it can step 
to 80 tracks and has the same speed and bit rate. I have instructions on my 
site how to use it.
Rich

I have a archive and a board which I bought with the TCP option, as well 
as CF adapter, etc.


I can share it if it's not available online

Here is the contents I have.

-rw-r--r--+ 1 1003 nogroup 915852 Sep  9  2000 bootdisk.img.gz
drwxrwxrwx+ 1 1003 nogroup    270 Oct  9  2014 daveb
drwxrwxrwx+ 1   98  98    674 Apr  9  2018 downloads-stack180
drwxrwxrwx+ 1   98  98    274 Apr  9  2018 gide
drwxrwxrwx+ 1   98  98    954 Apr  9  2018 hal-bower
drwxr-xr-x+ 1 1003 nogroup    574 Oct  9  2014 p112
drwxrwxrwx+ 1   98  98    552 Apr  9  2018 p112-2018
-rw-r--r--+ 1 1003 nogroup 331632 Sep 19  2014 p112-doc.pdf
-rw-r--r--+ 1 1003 nogroup  14305 Sep  9  2000 rawrite.exe
-rw-r--r--+ 1 1003 nogroup 357891 Oct 22  2005 sc102205.img.gz
-rw-r--r--+ 1 1003 nogroup 445535 Nov 11  2005 sc05.img.gz
-rw-r--r--+ 1 1003 nogroup 436332 Nov 30  2005 sc113005.img.gz
drwxr-xr-x+ 1 1003 nogroup   3660 Oct  9  2014 tcj-archive
drwxr-xr-x+ 1 1003 nogroup    268 Oct  9  2014 web
-rw-r--r--+ 1 1003 nogroup 660331 Oct 17  2005 zs101805.img.gz
-rw-r--r--+ 1 1003 nogroup 513625 Oct 21  2005 zs102205.img.gz
-rw-r--r--+ 1 1003 nogroup 612086 Nov 11  2005 zs05.img.gz
-rw-r--r--+ 1 1003 nogroup 552969 Nov 30  2005 zs113005.img.gz
drwxr-xr-x+ 1 1003 nogroup    260 Oct  9  2014 zsdos
-rw-r--r--+ 1 1003 nogroup 554479 Apr 22  2009 zsdos.pdf

Re: P112

[Richard Cini via cctalk]

  
  
  

The current P112 is a reissue from years ago, right? I remember I had 
one — and I may still have it somewhere — but I only used it with 3.5” drives. 
Somehow I think it was built that way by design (the board outline fit on a 
drive). 
I don’t know how available the code is, but I would look at the firmware on the 
board. To me it sounds like it has a bad drive definition. The 8272 is pretty 
easy to program for (I use it on my IMSAI). 
As an aside, I use a modified YD-380 (5.25” HD) drive to replace the 8” drives 
on my IMSAI so as a quick test you could use one of those. At least it can step 
to 80 tracks and has the same speed and bit rate. I have instructions on my 
site how to use it. 
Rich 



Get Outlook for iOS

  




On Sat, Nov 30, 2019 at 8:42 PM -0500, "Bill Gunshannon via cctalk" 
 wrote:










On 11/30/19 8:28 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
>>> A lot could depend on how the software is interpreting the FDC return
>>> codes.
>>>
>>> In the case of PC BIOS (765), error code number 4) that would mean that
> 
> On Sun, 1 Dec 2019, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
>> I think you missed something.  This is a P112 SBC not a PC.  I watch
>> the head step from track to track until it runs into the stop after
>> passing the last real track.  I have a dbit 8" adapter and it displays
>> the track count and I watch it go from 0 to 79.  I am assuming the
>> problem is that wherever the disk parameters are being stored on the
>> P112 they are wrong for 8" disks.
> 
> That's exactly why I said that it depended on how the software 
> interprets error codes, and used PC as an eaxample for comparison, not 
> that it would necessarily be the same.
> You are absolutely right that I don't know anything about P112 disk access.

I was hoping there would  be people here who did.  I have had these
SBC's for several years but have never even powered one up before.

> 
> You are right that the disk parameters are obviously wrong for 8", if 
> only the wrong track count.  I have seen THAT error before.
> Are the OTHER parameters at least usable?

I have no way of knowing.  My first test was to try formatting a disk
and then reading a (blank) directory.  But, as I said, while it says
the format was successful it can not read the disk.

> 
> If it says "sector not found", then there is a possibility (LIKE the PC 
> example that I used), that that may mean that it sees sectors, but not 
> the right ones.  But, there is still the possibility that it is using 
> that message for any and all disk errors.

Again this is why I need to find someone with experience with the P112.
I am beginning to suspect these were not as popular in reality as they
seemed to be on mailing lists.

> 
> 
> 
> BTW, I understand that NEC uses 77 tracks on their high density 5.25 and 
> 3.5 inch formats, and 360RPM for 3.5".   (Same parameters for all three 
> sizes!)

Well, I haven't tried 5.25" but 3.5" disks format/read/write just fine.

bill

Re: P112

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

On Sun, 1 Dec 2019, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:

Well, I haven't tried 5.25" but 3.5" disks format/read/write just fine.


That is a significant succesful test of MOST of the hardware.
(leaving drive, cabling, and software as the likely alternate culprits)

Speculating (with no knowledge of P112 (or P118 :-)) about the wrong 
parameters (even though 77 V 80 SEEMS minor), if the parameters are 
stored separately for FORMAT V READ/WRITE, that could obviously do it. 
If it were to have totally wrong parameters, and tried to put more 
sectors on a track than would fit, would it wrap around (past index) and 
overwrite the first sector with one of the later ones?



A couple of obvious other things to consider (that you probably 
have already considered) trying:
1) do you have some other machine with 8" capability to look at the disk 
that you formatted?


2) Do you get the same errors on a pre-formatted disk from something else?
(not necessarily much good as a test, because any format with different 
sector size or sector numbering would probably also give that error)


3) Perhaps tell it that the 3.5" drive is an 8", and see what it does
(300RPM V 360RPM shouldn't prevent that interchange in that direction, 
although "type 3" 3.5" drive (360RPM) would be ideal)

Re: P112

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

On 11/30/19 8:28 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
>>> A lot could depend on how the software is interpreting the FDC return
>>> codes.
>>>
>>> In the case of PC BIOS (765), error code number 4) that would mean that
> 
> On Sun, 1 Dec 2019, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
>> I think you missed something.  This is a P112 SBC not a PC.  I watch
>> the head step from track to track until it runs into the stop after
>> passing the last real track.  I have a dbit 8" adapter and it displays
>> the track count and I watch it go from 0 to 79.  I am assuming the
>> problem is that wherever the disk parameters are being stored on the
>> P112 they are wrong for 8" disks.
> 
> That's exactly why I said that it depended on how the software 
> interprets error codes, and used PC as an eaxample for comparison, not 
> that it would necessarily be the same.
> You are absolutely right that I don't know anything about P112 disk access.

I was hoping there would  be people here who did.  I have had these
SBC's for several years but have never even powered one up before.

> 
> You are right that the disk parameters are obviously wrong for 8", if 
> only the wrong track count.  I have seen THAT error before.
> Are the OTHER parameters at least usable?

I have no way of knowing.  My first test was to try formatting a disk
and then reading a (blank) directory.  But, as I said, while it says
the format was successful it can not read the disk.

> 
> If it says "sector not found", then there is a possibility (LIKE the PC 
> example that I used), that that may mean that it sees sectors, but not 
> the right ones.  But, there is still the possibility that it is using 
> that message for any and all disk errors.

Again this is why I need to find someone with experience with the P112.
I am beginning to suspect these were not as popular in reality as they
seemed to be on mailing lists.

> 
> 
> 
> BTW, I understand that NEC uses 77 tracks on their high density 5.25 and 
> 3.5 inch formats, and 360RPM for 3.5".   (Same parameters for all three 
> sizes!)

Well, I haven't tried 5.25" but 3.5" disks format/read/write just fine.

bill

Re: P112

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

A lot could depend on how the software is interpreting the FDC return
codes.

In the case of PC BIOS (765), error code number 4) that would mean that


On Sun, 1 Dec 2019, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:

I think you missed something.  This is a P112 SBC not a PC.  I watch
the head step from track to track until it runs into the stop after
passing the last real track.  I have a dbit 8" adapter and it displays
the track count and I watch it go from 0 to 79.  I am assuming the
problem is that wherever the disk parameters are being stored on the
P112 they are wrong for 8" disks.


That's exactly why I said that it depended on how the software interprets 
error codes, and used PC as an eaxample for comparison, not that it would 
necessarily be the same.
You are absolutely right that I don't know anything about P112 disk 
access.


You are right that the disk parameters are obviously wrong for 8", if only 
the wrong track count.  I have seen THAT error before.

Are the OTHER parameters at least usable?

If it says "sector not found", then there is a possibility (LIKE the PC 
example that I used), that that may mean that it sees sectors, but not 
the right ones.  But, there is still the possibility that it is using 
that message for any and all disk errors.




BTW, I understand that NEC uses 77 tracks on their high density 5.25 and 
3.5 inch formats, and 360RPM for 3.5".   (Same parameters for all three 
sizes!)

Re: P112

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

On 11/30/19 7:37 PM, dwight via cctalk wrote:
> Don't 8 inch drives have 77 tracks?

Give that man a cigar.  Apparently the P112 doesn't know the
format of 8" disks even though it has an option to set a drive
as 8" in the config.

bill

Re: P112

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

On 11/30/19 7:16 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
> On Sat, 30 Nov 2019, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
>> I'll start with the simple and funny one.  If i run FORMAT
>> it formats all 80 tracks.  :-)  Seems like the definition
>> for an 8" disk as selected in the config menu is just plain
>> wrong.  Of course, once it formats all 80 :-) tracks any
>> attempt to access it, like a DIR, just returns "sector not
>> found".
> 
> A lot could depend on how the software is interpreting the FDC return 
> codes.
> 
> In the case of PC BIOS (765), error code number 4) that would mean that 
> it did format; it sees sectors, but not the one that you asked for.
> That may be that the format command setup and the read are in 
> disagreement on sector numbers, and/or sector size.
> 
> It could also happen if it ended up on the wrong track.  (then the C 
> field of the CHRN of the sector doesn't match the C field of the CHRN 
> requested)
> Even a non-functional stepper could do that.  Be well aware thet 
> "VERIFY" checks whether there are READABLE sectors, not whether they 
> have correct content.  If you want RELIABLE code, include a READ after 
> WRITE, rather than rely on the FDC "VERIFY".
> A non-functional WRITE (including FORMAT) will VERIFY just fine, but 
> leave behind whatever had been on the track before, rather than what you 
> though that you had put there.
> 
> PC FDC returns error code 2 for not seeing address mark.  However, 
> MS-DOS goes through a short list of codes that it knows, and then falls 
> through to "error, but none of the above" and says "General Failure" (I 
> can't help but think that that was one of the brass in VietNam)

I think you missed something.  This is a P112 SBC not a PC.  I watch
the head step from track to track until it runs into the stop after
passing the last real track.  I have a dbit 8" adapter and it displays
the track count and I watch it go from 0 to 79.  I am assuming the
problem is that wherever the disk parameters are being stored on the
P112 they are wrong for 8" disks.

bill

Re: P112

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

On Sun, 1 Dec 2019, dwight via cctalk wrote:

Don't 8 inch drives have 77 tracks?


YES.

Although 8" "emulation" sometimes cheats and uses 80.
And some users with drives without a physical stop tried to squeeze a few 
more tracks  (and 41,42 on 360K)
The inability to read those "extra" tracks on a different drive didn't 
show up until the disk was nearly full (inner tracks are normally last 
allocated)


SA400 was 35 track (TRS80, and SA390 Apple)
Q: how many tracks are the HP formats?

Re: P112

[dwight via cctalk]

Don't 8 inch drives have 77 tracks?
Dwight


From: cctalk  on behalf of Bill Gunshannon via 
cctalk 
Sent: Saturday, November 30, 2019 9:22 AM
To: emanuel stiebler ; General Discussion: On-Topic and 
Off-Topic Posts 
Subject: Re: P112

On 11/30/19 9:15 AM, emanuel stiebler wrote:
> On 2019-11-29 19:01, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
>>
>> Let's try again with the right name in the Subject line!
>>
>> It's not really classic (although it does try to pretend to be
>> but does anyone here do anything with the P112 SBC?  I am trying to
>> get 8" disks running on it but I am seeing some rather strange behavior.
>
> You should probably describe the "strange behavior". There is a chance,
> it isn't a P112 problem?
>

I was waiting to see if there were any P112 users first,

I'll start with the simple and funny one.  If i run FORMAT
it formats all 80 tracks.  :-)  Seems like the definition
for an 8" disk as selected in the config menu is just plain
wrong.  Of course, once it formats all 80 :-) tracks any
attempt to access it, like a DIR, just returns "sector not
found".

bill

Re: P112

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

On Sat, 30 Nov 2019, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:

I'll start with the simple and funny one.  If i run FORMAT
it formats all 80 tracks.  :-)  Seems like the definition
for an 8" disk as selected in the config menu is just plain
wrong.  Of course, once it formats all 80 :-) tracks any
attempt to access it, like a DIR, just returns "sector not
found".


A lot could depend on how the software is interpreting the FDC return 
codes.


In the case of PC BIOS (765), error code number 4) that would mean that it 
did format; it sees sectors, but not the one that you asked for.
That may be that the format command setup and the read are in 
disagreement on sector numbers, and/or sector size.


It could also happen if it ended up on the wrong track.  (then the C field 
of the CHRN of the sector doesn't match the C field of the CHRN requested)
Even a non-functional stepper could do that.  Be well aware thet "VERIFY" 
checks whether there are READABLE sectors, not whether they have correct 
content.  If you want RELIABLE code, include a READ after WRITE, rather 
than rely on the FDC "VERIFY".
A non-functional WRITE (including FORMAT) will VERIFY just fine, but leave 
behind whatever had been on the track before, rather than what you though 
that you had put there.


PC FDC returns error code 2 for not seeing address mark.  However, MS-DOS 
goes through a short list of codes that it knows, and then falls through 
to "error, but none of the above" and says "General Failure" (I can't help 
but think that that was one of the brass in VietNam)

Re: P112

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

On 11/30/19 9:15 AM, emanuel stiebler wrote:
> On 2019-11-29 19:01, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
>>
>> Let's try again with the right name in the Subject line!
>>
>> It's not really classic (although it does try to pretend to be
>> but does anyone here do anything with the P112 SBC?  I am trying to
>> get 8" disks running on it but I am seeing some rather strange behavior.
> 
> You should probably describe the "strange behavior". There is a chance,
> it isn't a P112 problem?
> 

I was waiting to see if there were any P112 users first,

I'll start with the simple and funny one.  If i run FORMAT
it formats all 80 tracks.  :-)  Seems like the definition
for an 8" disk as selected in the config menu is just plain
wrong.  Of course, once it formats all 80 :-) tracks any
attempt to access it, like a DIR, just returns "sector not
found".

bill

Re: P112

[emanuel stiebler via cctalk]

On 2019-11-29 19:01, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
> 
> Let's try again with the right name in the Subject line!
> 
> It's not really classic (although it does try to pretend to be
> but does anyone here do anything with the P112 SBC?  I am trying to
> get 8" disks running on it but I am seeing some rather strange behavior.

You should probably describe the "strange behavior". There is a chance,
it isn't a P112 problem?

Re: P112 redesigned for Z280? terminal

[Jim Manley via cctalk]

This?

http://searle.hostei.com/grant/MonitorKeyboard/index.html

It's much more efficient for a poster to provide URLs than for umpteen
others to have to go off searching.

You're welcome.

On Wed, Dec 12, 2018 at 2:04 PM allison via cctalk 
wrote:

> >> That is the easy part, where is the 99 cent dumb terminal to go with it?
> >> Ben.
> >
>
> Ben,
>
> look at Grant Searle's display system, not the Z80 CP/M but his three
> chip display system.
> Take two Atmel Atmega328Ps and a 74ls166  monitor and P2 keyboard required.
> That yields a 24line x 80char display that is a subset of Vt100/Ansii.
> Its not 99cents but
> at list prices under 7$ Monitor and keyboard not included.
>
> Or you can use an arduino with a 40char by 4 line LCD.
>
>
> Allison
>

Re: P112 redesigned for Z280?

[Mike Niswonger via cctalk]

On 12/12/18 6:58 AM, David Griffith via cctalk wrote:


My reply is at the bottom.
Please put your reply there too.
On Tue, 4 Dec 2018, ben via cctalk wrote:

On 12/4/2018 1:17 PM, Tony Nicholson via cctalk wrote:

Hello David

I saw your posting on the cctalk mailing list regarding RSX180.

It is Hector Peraza that's been tinkering with this.  He intends 
making the
full source-code available via SourceForge or GitHub but is still 
working
on preliminary web pages and documenting etc.  No doubt he will 
provide you

with more details.

I've been tinkering with a Z280 system designed by Bill Shen (the 
Z280RC on

the RetroBrew web site at
https://www.retrobrewcomputers.org/doku.php?id=builderpages:plasmo:z280rc 
)

and have contacted Hector about porting it to the Z280.


That is the easy part, where is the 99 cent dumb terminal to go with it?
Ben.


That's got me thinking... Suppose I redesign the P112 board to take a 
Z280 CPU.  Would you guys go for it?  I'd like to come up with a way 
to use a socketed CPU or put a surface-mounted chip on a carrier board 
to allow greater versatility with playing with different Zilog chips.




David,

    Count me in on this one... Definitely sounds interesting...

    -- Mike

Re: P112 redesigned for Z280? terminal

[allison via cctalk]

>> That is the easy part, where is the 99 cent dumb terminal to go with it?
>> Ben.
>

Ben,

look at Grant Searle's display system, not the Z80 CP/M but his three
chip display system.
Take two Atmel Atmega328Ps and a 74ls166  monitor and P2 keyboard required.
That yields a 24line x 80char display that is a subset of Vt100/Ansii.
Its not 99cents but
at list prices under 7$ Monitor and keyboard not included.

Or you can use an arduino with a 40char by 4 line LCD.


Allison

Re: P112 redesigned for Z280?

[allison via cctalk]

On 12/12/2018 07:58 AM, David Griffith via cctalk wrote:
>
> My reply is at the bottom.
> Please put your reply there too.
> On Tue, 4 Dec 2018, ben via cctalk wrote:
>> On 12/4/2018 1:17 PM, Tony Nicholson via cctalk wrote:
>>> Hello David
>>>
>>> I saw your posting on the cctalk mailing list regarding RSX180.
>>>
>>> It is Hector Peraza that's been tinkering with this.  He intends
>>> making the
>>> full source-code available via SourceForge or GitHub but is still
>>> working
>>> on preliminary web pages and documenting etc.  No doubt he will
>>> provide you
>>> with more details.
>>>
>>> I've been tinkering with a Z280 system designed by Bill Shen (the
>>> Z280RC on
>>> the RetroBrew web site at
>>> https://www.retrobrewcomputers.org/doku.php?id=builderpages:plasmo:z280rc
>>> )
>>> and have contacted Hector about porting it to the Z280.
>>
>> That is the easy part, where is the 99 cent dumb terminal to go with it?
>> Ben.
>
> That's got me thinking... Suppose I redesign the P112 board to take a
> Z280 CPU.  Would you guys go for it?  I'd like to come up with a way
> to use a socketed CPU or put a surface-mounted chip on a carrier board
> to allow greater versatility with playing with different Zilog chips.
>

I'd be interested in a Z280 system.  I have a few of the jlead (socketed
format) chips of very late revision
I've built around.   The design work I used was started by Tim Olmstead.
   The RSX system would likely
run very well as Z280 offers larger memory, I space,  supervisor/use,
and MMU so a real protected
space OS is possible. 

Allison

Re: P112 runs RSX-11

[allison via cctalk]

On 12/05/2018 05:00 PM, Torfinn Ingolfsen via cctalk wrote:
> There is a "contact" link on this page:
> http://p112.sourceforge.net/index.php?rsx180
> Maybe it works.
> On Tue, Dec 4, 2018 at 6:48 PM Al Kossow via cctalk
>  wrote:
>>
>>
>> On 12/4/18 7:51 AM, Dennis Boone via cctalk wrote:
>>>  > That's all I could find, too.  If anyone knows where the source might
>>>  > be or stumbles on it, I would definitely be interested as well.
>>>
>>> I think that's Hector Peraza's site.  His email address is listed; you
>>> could try writing to him.
>>>
>>> De
>>>
>> Subject: Re: Interested in a Z280 SBC
>> Posted by
>> hperaza
>>  on Thu, 12 Oct 2017 12:44:09 GMT
>> View Forum Message
>>  <>
>> Reply to Message
>> lowen wrote on Wed, 11 October 2017 06:44While I personally would like to 
>> see a bit more
>> coordination of efforts especially in the area of the C compiler, assembler, 
>> and emulator, I know of
>> several efforts by several people already underway.  I am very interested in 
>> the emulation side of
>> things, and even going as far as a VHDL or verilog core that could be used 
>> in an FPGA.  With the
>> annoying bugs fixed, of course!
>> Some of the bugs could even be emulated (if they are not of erratic nature, 
>> of course). That could
>> be useful in case someone wants to test a program on the FPGA version that 
>> is intended to work
>> on the real iron as well. The "compatibility" mode could be controlled by a 
>> bit in an additional CPU
>> control register.
>> Which brings up another question: is there any updated list somewhere of the 
>> known Z280 bugs?
>> So far the information available is rather fragmented and incomplete.
>> Quote:To all who are involved in doing a compiler, assembler, or emulator: I 
>> know you've probably
>> posted before, but I would like to get a list together of all of these 
>> efforts and see what
>> coordination might be possible.
>> OK, here is my list:
>>  native Z280 (macro)-assembler, preferably M80 or SLR compatible (currently 
>> working on that)
>> debugger (e.g. like DDTZ, but using the single-step capabilities of the 
>> chip) get UZI280 working
>> (haven't even looked at it yet) and add more utilities, etc. same for Fuzix 
>> port of MP/M better hard
>> disk support (e.g. via FDISK utility like the one for the P112, with 
>> automatic recognition of
>> partitions in CP/M and UZI so one will not have to change the BIOS every 
>> time partitions change)
>> better ROM setup? again taking the P112 as an example (i.e. adding disk 
>> timing parameters to
>> the NV RAM, if possible add a simple embedded debugger?) a Verilog or VHDL 
>> Z280 core,
>> perhaps taking T80 as the base. And if I really get the time, would like to 
>> make something like this,
>> so it could be plugged directly into the CPU280 CPU socket. and like Lamar I 
>> also have my own,
>> other niche project - a port of a multitasking, RSX-11M-like OS I wrote many 
>> years ago for the Z80
>> (now ported to the Z180). The PDP-11 always was my favorite machine, and the 
>> Z280 has many
>> PDP-ish features, including a similar MMU, so for me is an interesting hobby 
>> project.
>>
>>
>
I'd love to see source and to my eyes its the first really new OS on z80
family hardware
since the few from near the '80s.

I don't happen to have a P112 but versions for other hardware has me
interested.

I have S100 (Compupro, North*star, AmproLB+, SB180, BCC180, kaypros, and
more
than a few others.  Maybe I should crank a system using real late
version Z280s .

RSX (RT-11 and others) on PDP-11 is why I have a bunch of Qbus 11s as
they are
fairly small and friendly. 

Allison

Re: P112 runs RSX-11

[Torfinn Ingolfsen via cctalk]

There is a "contact" link on this page:
http://p112.sourceforge.net/index.php?rsx180
Maybe it works.
On Tue, Dec 4, 2018 at 6:48 PM Al Kossow via cctalk
 wrote:
>
>
>
> On 12/4/18 7:51 AM, Dennis Boone via cctalk wrote:
> >  > That's all I could find, too.  If anyone knows where the source might
> >  > be or stumbles on it, I would definitely be interested as well.
> >
> > I think that's Hector Peraza's site.  His email address is listed; you
> > could try writing to him.
> >
> > De
> >
>
> Subject: Re: Interested in a Z280 SBC
> Posted by
> hperaza
>  on Thu, 12 Oct 2017 12:44:09 GMT
> View Forum Message
>  <>
> Reply to Message
> lowen wrote on Wed, 11 October 2017 06:44While I personally would like to see 
> a bit more
> coordination of efforts especially in the area of the C compiler, assembler, 
> and emulator, I know of
> several efforts by several people already underway.  I am very interested in 
> the emulation side of
> things, and even going as far as a VHDL or verilog core that could be used in 
> an FPGA.  With the
> annoying bugs fixed, of course!
> Some of the bugs could even be emulated (if they are not of erratic nature, 
> of course). That could
> be useful in case someone wants to test a program on the FPGA version that is 
> intended to work
> on the real iron as well. The "compatibility" mode could be controlled by a 
> bit in an additional CPU
> control register.
> Which brings up another question: is there any updated list somewhere of the 
> known Z280 bugs?
> So far the information available is rather fragmented and incomplete.
> Quote:To all who are involved in doing a compiler, assembler, or emulator: I 
> know you've probably
> posted before, but I would like to get a list together of all of these 
> efforts and see what
> coordination might be possible.
> OK, here is my list:
>  native Z280 (macro)-assembler, preferably M80 or SLR compatible (currently 
> working on that)
> debugger (e.g. like DDTZ, but using the single-step capabilities of the chip) 
> get UZI280 working
> (haven't even looked at it yet) and add more utilities, etc. same for Fuzix 
> port of MP/M better hard
> disk support (e.g. via FDISK utility like the one for the P112, with 
> automatic recognition of
> partitions in CP/M and UZI so one will not have to change the BIOS every time 
> partitions change)
> better ROM setup? again taking the P112 as an example (i.e. adding disk 
> timing parameters to
> the NV RAM, if possible add a simple embedded debugger?) a Verilog or VHDL 
> Z280 core,
> perhaps taking T80 as the base. And if I really get the time, would like to 
> make something like this,
> so it could be plugged directly into the CPU280 CPU socket. and like Lamar I 
> also have my own,
> other niche project - a port of a multitasking, RSX-11M-like OS I wrote many 
> years ago for the Z80
> (now ported to the Z180). The PDP-11 always was my favorite machine, and the 
> Z280 has many
> PDP-ish features, including a similar MMU, so for me is an interesting hobby 
> project.
>
>


-- 
mvh
Torfinn

Re: p112

[ben via cctalk]

On 12/4/2018 1:17 PM, Tony Nicholson via cctalk wrote:

Hello David

I saw your posting on the cctalk mailing list regarding RSX180.

It is Hector Peraza that's been tinkering with this.  He intends making the
full source-code available via SourceForge or GitHub but is still working
on preliminary web pages and documenting etc.  No doubt he will provide you
with more details.

I've been tinkering with a Z280 system designed by Bill Shen (the Z280RC on
the RetroBrew web site at
https://www.retrobrewcomputers.org/doku.php?id=builderpages:plasmo:z280rc )
and have contacted Hector about porting it to the Z280.


That is the easy part, where is the 99 cent dumb terminal to go with it?
Ben.

Re: p112

[Tony Nicholson via cctalk]

Hello David

I saw your posting on the cctalk mailing list regarding RSX180.

It is Hector Peraza that's been tinkering with this.  He intends making the
full source-code available via SourceForge or GitHub but is still working
on preliminary web pages and documenting etc.  No doubt he will provide you
with more details.

I've been tinkering with a Z280 system designed by Bill Shen (the Z280RC on
the RetroBrew web site at
https://www.retrobrewcomputers.org/doku.php?id=builderpages:plasmo:z280rc )
and have contacted Hector about porting it to the Z280.

A Z180 system is also on my hobbyist "to-do" list.  Should you decide to
produce another run I'd be interested in one. Most likely I'd use a
CompactFlash on IDE interface and an GoTek style floppy emulator with it.

-- 
Tony Nicholson 

Re: P112 runs RSX-11

[Al Kossow via cctalk]

On 12/4/18 7:51 AM, Dennis Boone via cctalk wrote:
>  > That's all I could find, too.  If anyone knows where the source might
>  > be or stumbles on it, I would definitely be interested as well.
> 
> I think that's Hector Peraza's site.  His email address is listed; you
> could try writing to him.
> 
> De
> 

Subject: Re: Interested in a Z280 SBC
Posted by
hperaza
 on Thu, 12 Oct 2017 12:44:09 GMT
View Forum Message
 <>
Reply to Message
lowen wrote on Wed, 11 October 2017 06:44While I personally would like to see a 
bit more
coordination of efforts especially in the area of the C compiler, assembler, 
and emulator, I know of
several efforts by several people already underway.  I am very interested in 
the emulation side of
things, and even going as far as a VHDL or verilog core that could be used in 
an FPGA.  With the
annoying bugs fixed, of course!
Some of the bugs could even be emulated (if they are not of erratic nature, of 
course). That could
be useful in case someone wants to test a program on the FPGA version that is 
intended to work
on the real iron as well. The "compatibility" mode could be controlled by a bit 
in an additional CPU
control register.
Which brings up another question: is there any updated list somewhere of the 
known Z280 bugs?
So far the information available is rather fragmented and incomplete.
Quote:To all who are involved in doing a compiler, assembler, or emulator: I 
know you've probably
posted before, but I would like to get a list together of all of these efforts 
and see what
coordination might be possible.
OK, here is my list:
 native Z280 (macro)-assembler, preferably M80 or SLR compatible (currently 
working on that)
debugger (e.g. like DDTZ, but using the single-step capabilities of the chip) 
get UZI280 working
(haven't even looked at it yet) and add more utilities, etc. same for Fuzix 
port of MP/M better hard
disk support (e.g. via FDISK utility like the one for the P112, with automatic 
recognition of
partitions in CP/M and UZI so one will not have to change the BIOS every time 
partitions change)
better ROM setup? again taking the P112 as an example (i.e. adding disk timing 
parameters to
the NV RAM, if possible add a simple embedded debugger?) a Verilog or VHDL Z280 
core,
perhaps taking T80 as the base. And if I really get the time, would like to 
make something like this,
so it could be plugged directly into the CPU280 CPU socket. and like Lamar I 
also have my own,
other niche project - a port of a multitasking, RSX-11M-like OS I wrote many 
years ago for the Z80
(now ported to the Z180). The PDP-11 always was my favorite machine, and the 
Z280 has many
PDP-ish features, including a similar MMU, so for me is an interesting hobby 
project.

Re: P112 runs RSX-11

[Dennis Boone via cctalk]

 > That's all I could find, too.  If anyone knows where the source might
 > be or stumbles on it, I would definitely be interested as well.

I think that's Hector Peraza's site.  His email address is listed; you
could try writing to him.

De

Re: P112 runs RSX-11

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

On 12/4/18 10:28 AM, Warner Losh wrote:


On Tue, Dec 4, 2018 at 7:45 AM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk 
mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org>> wrote:

On 12/4/18 9:28 AM, allison via cctalk wrote:
> On 12/04/2018 04:26 AM, David Griffith via cctalk wrote:
>> I don't know who did it, but here's a video of a P112 running RSX:
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5s6IOCCk3Uw
>>
>> If the creator of this thing is reading, I'd very much like to get my
>> hands on RSX-180 and put it up on the P112 page at Sourceforge,
>> Gitlab, et al.
>>
>>
> I did find this here: https://en.everybodywiki.com/RSX-180
>
That's all I could find, too.  If anyone knows where the source might

be or stumbles on it, I would definitely be interested as well.


I have two P112's.  :-)

http://p112.sourceforge.net/index.php?downloads

has two links to download binaries at the bottom for RSX-180




What about the source?  Binaries are fun, but the source

would be a lot more fun.


bill

Re: P112 runs RSX-11

[Warner Losh via cctalk]

On Tue, Dec 4, 2018 at 7:45 AM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

>
> On 12/4/18 9:28 AM, allison via cctalk wrote:
> > On 12/04/2018 04:26 AM, David Griffith via cctalk wrote:
> >> I don't know who did it, but here's a video of a P112 running RSX:
> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5s6IOCCk3Uw
> >>
> >> If the creator of this thing is reading, I'd very much like to get my
> >> hands on RSX-180 and put it up on the P112 page at Sourceforge,
> >> Gitlab, et al.
> >>
> >>
> > I did find this here: https://en.everybodywiki.com/RSX-180
> >
> That's all I could find, too.  If anyone knows where the source might
>
> be or stumbles on it, I would definitely be interested as well.
>
>
> I have two P112's.  :-)
>

http://p112.sourceforge.net/index.php?downloads

has two links to download binaries at the bottom for RSX-180

Warner

Re: P112 runs RSX-11

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

On 12/4/18 9:28 AM, allison via cctalk wrote:
> On 12/04/2018 04:26 AM, David Griffith via cctalk wrote:
>> I don't know who did it, but here's a video of a P112 running RSX:
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5s6IOCCk3Uw
>>
>> If the creator of this thing is reading, I'd very much like to get my
>> hands on RSX-180 and put it up on the P112 page at Sourceforge,
>> Gitlab, et al.
>>
>>
> I did find this here: https://en.everybodywiki.com/RSX-180
>
That's all I could find, too.  If anyone knows where the source might

be or stumbles on it, I would definitely be interested as well.


I have two P112's.  :-)


bill

Re: P112 runs RSX-11

[allison via cctalk]

On 12/04/2018 04:26 AM, David Griffith via cctalk wrote:
>
> I don't know who did it, but here's a video of a P112 running RSX:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5s6IOCCk3Uw
>
> If the creator of this thing is reading, I'd very much like to get my
> hands on RSX-180 and put it up on the P112 page at Sourceforge,
> Gitlab, et al.
>
>

I did find this here: https://en.everybodywiki.com/RSX-180

Allison

Re: p112

[David Griffith via cctalk]

On Mon, 3 Dec 2018, Joe Smith via cctech wrote:

Are there any boards available or rom monitor updates?


No more boards are available.  This is primarily due to difficulty in 
getting sufficient quantities of brand-new super-IO chips.  The fabber I 
used has problems with using pulls because the legs are off just enough to 
make the pick-and-place robots throw fits.  I'm pondering doing a new run 
of bare boards and either doing the SMT myself or leaving that for buyers. 
In any case, I probably won't be offering complete kits.


Besides Joe, who else would be interested in acquiring one or more P112 
boards?



--
David Griffith
d...@661.org

A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?

Re: P112

[David Griffith via cctalk]

On Mon, 9 Apr 2018, Mark G Thomas via cctalk wrote:


Hi Bill,

On Sun, Apr 08, 2018 at 12:36:35AM +, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:


It's not really Classic Hardware, but it does run some pretty classic
OSes.  Anybody here working with the P112?  I have had a couple for
ages but never had time to play with them.  I see them now as a
possible way to manipulate floppies (including 8") from classic systems
so I decided to give it a try.  Problem is, it won't boot anything.  Not the
disk that came with it and none of the images I got off the web.
Anybody here know anything about them?


I see you have made progress since this post, but I wanted to chime
in. I have two, with GIDE cards, and booting from CF cards. One has the
LAN interface card (see http://stack180.com/). I haven't been using
the floppies, though have always meant to try to get it to do SSSD
8" format for compatibility with tons of CP/M floppies I have.

I was always surprised not to hear more from other p112 users.

There is a mailing list, but the last post I know of was five years
ago when I asked if anyone else was on the list.

http://lists.feedle.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p112


It seems that most P112 discussion happens here or on comp.os.cpm.

--
David Griffith
d...@661.org

A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?

Re: P112

[Mark G Thomas via cctalk]

Hi Bill,

On Sun, Apr 08, 2018 at 12:36:35AM +, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
> 
> It's not really Classic Hardware, but it does run some pretty classic
> OSes.  Anybody here working with the P112?  I have had a couple for
> ages but never had time to play with them.  I see them now as a
> possible way to manipulate floppies (including 8") from classic systems
> so I decided to give it a try.  Problem is, it won't boot anything.  Not the
> disk that came with it and none of the images I got off the web.
> Anybody here know anything about them?

I see you have made progress since this post, but I wanted to chime 
in. I have two, with GIDE cards, and booting from CF cards. One has the
LAN interface card (see http://stack180.com/). I haven't been using 
the floppies, though have always meant to try to get it to do SSSD 
8" format for compatibility with tons of CP/M floppies I have.

I was always surprised not to hear more from other p112 users.

There is a mailing list, but the last post I know of was five years 
ago when I asked if anyone else was on the list.

http://lists.feedle.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p112

Mark

-- 
Mark G. Thomas (m...@misty.com), KC3DRE

Re: P112

[emanuel stiebler via cctalk]

On 2018-04-08 08:37, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
> 
> None of the disks created with winrawwrite work.  I am going to
> assume at this point that USB floppies can not be used to build these
> images.  I have a dos box with a real floppy interface but moving stuff
> to it is not easy. (time to fire up Kermit again!!)

No idea if it helps, but if you're doing it really on Win***, you have
to make sure, you have administrator rights, and switch off any
virus-scanners, active-protection or whatever software which could run
in the background. They usually block the access to the first "tracks"
of a device, without any warning ...

Have the same problem, when I try to write complete sd-cards for my
FPGAs, and forget about that ;-)

Cheers

Re: P112

[David Griffith via cctalk]

On Sun, 8 Apr 2018, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:


I have no idea of the format.  I got the images and rawrite.exe and
told the computer to make them.  They were unusable when I used
a USB External floppy but worked fine when I used a real internal
floppy.

I need to get the systems running before I start playing with reading
and writing weird formats.  But that is coming.

As a side note, I did get the system to boot and run from my floppy
emulator with a USB stick.  Have to boot twice.  First time you get
the unrecognized format error second time boots fine.  Interesting.
Good to know for when I am testing on other systems as well.

Small steps, but advancing, just the same.

bill


I seem to recall using a USB floppy drive to make P112 disks, but I also 
did it using a Linux machine with the dd command.  The rawrite.exe program 
is very old and I suspect it and modern Windows systems don't see 
eye-to-eye anymore.


The format is described in the cpmtools diskdefs file.  Below are the 
entries that seem most relevant to the P112.


diskdef p112
  seclen 512
  tracks 160
  sectrk 18
  blocksize 2048
  maxdir 256
  skew 1
  boottrk 2
  os 3
end

diskdef p112-old
  seclen 512
  tracks 160
  sectrk 18
  blocksize 2048
  maxdir 128
  skew 1
  boottrk 1
  os 3
end

diskdef gide-cfa
  seclen 512
  tracks 1000
  sectrk 16
  blocksize 4096
  maxdir 1024
  skew 0
  boottrk 2
  os 3
end

diskdef gide-cfb
  seclen 512
  tracks 1000
  sectrk 16
  blocksize 4096
  maxdir 1024
  skew 0
  boottrk 0
# Start of second partition
  offset 1000trk
  os 3
end


--
David Griffith
d...@661.org

A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?

Re: P112

[David Griffith via cctalk]

On Sun, 8 Apr 2018, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:


Should be fun.
Is the FDC a 765 variant?
or a WD 179x variant?


On Sun, 8 Apr 2018, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:

SMC 37C651.  Supports  500 Kb/s, 300 Kb/s and 250 Kb/s Data Rates.
Something else we lost with the PC.


That's a 765 variant.  Made by several companies, even WD!
Most of those can handle FM/"single density".

5.25" single density is 125K bps
It might support it,> Should have left it the way it was and have people set 
the Drive Select

themselves.


in spite of not mentioning it.


All the P112 boards I distributed use a FDC37C665IR super-IO chip from 
SMC.  I don't know which variant David Brooks used.  I never acquired one 
made by him.  In case anyone wants more P112s, it's that chip that's the 
big sticking point for why I don't have anymore.  The board stuffer's 
robots had problems dealing with pulls.  The legs had to be absolutely 
perfect, so I had to get new-old-stock chips.  I've recently discovered 
how to do a good job of soldering QFPs by hand, so maybe I could work that 
angle.


The weirdness of the how the floppy drive cabling works with the P112 had 
me baffled for the longest time.  Terry and I thought it would be best 
though to just leave those quirks alone when it came time to update the 
firmware.



--
David Griffith
d...@661.org

A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?

Re: P112

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

Should have left it the way it was and have people set the Drive Select
themselves.

Radio Shack used a different approach to drive select by cable instead
of making use of the well documented drive select on the drive.
Radio shack jumpered all drive selects on on the drive, and pulled
pins in the cable.


On Sun, 8 Apr 2018, allison via cctalk wrote:

OR used a straight cable and people used the drive select.


THAT's the approach if users are smart enough to read simple instructions 
and follow them.


Unfortunately,
SOME users, or store technicians, are not smart enough to handle it.
AND, PC dominated the market so thoroughly that some drives are shipped 
hardwired to PC jumpering, so for anything other than B:, it may be 
necessary to cut and solder to switch back to normal jumpers.



SMC 37C651.  Supports  500 Kb/s, 300 Kb/s and 250 Kb/s Data Rates.
Something else we lost with the PC.

The 37C651 is 765 variant,  so any PC should be able to create a
compatible disk.
Least for my CP/M systems its never been an issue.  considering I'e used
8/5.25/3.5 drives
on the same boxes it should not be a big deal.



Some excellent tips:

Some notes:  The 37C651 and its kin all have minimal drive so long
cables are
out as they pick up noise.  Keep the cable away from monitor (crt based)
and any
switching power supplies.  Use a separate ground wire from the drive
frame to
the board ground.
The IDE interface same deal, short cable only and one drive.  CF works.
When making a disk first ERASE IT using a degausser then format and copy
to it.
Also make sure the drives are the same TPI, your trying to make life easier.
I've had the best luck with older PC 5.25 like Toshiba and Teac.  For
3.5 Sony
and Toshiba are the go to but if all else use the same drive to write it
and read
(that means moving it).
One last detail make sure all the voltages (+5, +12,-12) are good and clean.

Re: P112

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

Should be fun.
Is the FDC a 765 variant?
or a WD 179x variant?


On Sun, 8 Apr 2018, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:

SMC 37C651.  Supports  500 Kb/s, 300 Kb/s and 250 Kb/s Data Rates.
Something else we lost with the PC.


That's a 765 variant.  Made by several companies, even WD!
Most of those can handle FM/"single density".

5.25" single density is 125K bps
It might support it,> Should have left it the way it was and have people 
set the Drive Select

themselves.


in spite of not mentioning it.

Re: P112

[allison via cctalk]

On 04/08/2018 04:11 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
>
> On 04/08/2018 02:11 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:
> Radio Shack used a different approach to drive select by cable instead 
> of making use of the well documented drive select on the drive.
> Radio shack jumpered all drive selects on on the drive, and pulled 
> pins in the cable.
>
OR used a straight cable and people used the drive select.

>>> I need to get the systems running before I start playing with reading
>>> and writing weird formats.  But that is coming.
>> Should be fun.
>> Is the FDC a 765 variant?
>> or a WD 179x variant?
> SMC 37C651.  Supports  500 Kb/s, 300 Kb/s and 250 Kb/s Data Rates.
> Something else we lost with the PC.
The 37C651 is 765 variant,  so any PC should be able to create a
compatible disk.
Least for my CP/M systems its never been an issue.  considering I'e used
8/5.25/3.5 drives
on the same boxes it should not be a big deal.

Some notes:  The 37C651 and its kin all have minimal drive so long
cables are
out as they pick up noise.  Keep the cable away from monitor (crt based)
and any
switching power supplies.  Use a separate ground wire from the drive
frame to
the board ground.

The IDE interface same deal, short cable only and one drive.  CF works.

When making a disk first ERASE IT using a degausser then format and copy
to it.
Also make sure the drives are the same TPI, your trying to make life easier.
I've had the best luck with older PC 5.25 like Toshiba and Teac.  For
3.5 Sony
and Toshiba are the go to but if all else use the same drive to write it
and read
(that means moving it).

One last detail make sure all the voltages (+5, +12,-12) are good and clean.


Allison

Re: P112

[Craig Ruff via cctalk]

I have a operational P112 with 3.5" floppies, GIDE/CF and CD-ROM.  Do you know 
which ROM you have installed?

Re: P112

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

On 04/08/2018 02:11 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:
 I do have to admit that I find it hard to believe that the cable to 
 the
 floppy can actually make a difference.
>>> A minor point, . . .
>>> On 5150/5160/5170, the SECOND drive is a straight cable, FIRST drive
>>> is crossed.  Thus, drive A: is at the end of the cable, B: is in the
>>> middle of the cable.
>
> On Sun, 8 Apr 2018, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
>> Yeah, knew that from other systems.  IBM really screwed that up.
>> Should have left it the way it was and have people set the Drive Select
>> themselves.
>
> Yep!
> IBM didn't think that users could be trusted to get that right.
> Or at least Computerland couldn't be trusted to get it right.
>
> Radio Shack used a different approach to drive select by cable instead 
> of making use of the well documented drive select on the drive.
> Radio shack jumpered all drive selects on on the drive, and pulled 
> pins in the cable.

Or, as in the case of some of the 1000 series (I had a TX my father an 
SL) punch holes in the cable to
break the connection.

> As opposed to IBM jumpering both drives as B: and twisting the cable 
> for A: (which also provided different control of motor)

Which also limited you to two drives.
>
>
>>> IF that is correct, then your first drie is straight through. That
>>> also means that an unkeyed cable can be reversed, as one more to try.
>> Reversed cable will result in the drive being active constantly.
>> Easily noted by the LED being on constant and the drive running.
>
> I meant reversing BOTH ends, end for end, giving same wiring.
> in case some lines of the cable are flaky.

Too many different cable for that to be likely.

>
>>> I did not see any mention of the disk format.
>>> If it is 512 bytes per sector MFM, with sequential sector numbering,
>>> then even USB drives should work for making disks.
>>> A different sector size, or even numbering sectors from 0, would be
>>> problematic for some USB drives.
>>
>> I have no idea of the format.  I got the images and rawrite.exe and
>> told the computer to make them.  They were unusable when I used
>> a USB External floppy but worked fine when I used a real internal
>> floppy.
>
> Since they mimiced the 5150 cabling, I was hoping that maybe they had 
> made the format similar, or at least the same physical format.
> There are more efficient physical formats (using 1024 bytes per sector 
> easily gives you 400k/800K instead of 360K/720K)
>
>
>> I need to get the systems running before I start playing with reading
>> and writing weird formats.  But that is coming.
>
> Should be fun.
> Is the FDC a 765 variant?
> or a WD 179x variant?

SMC 37C651.  Supports  500 Kb/s, 300 Kb/s and 250 Kb/s Data Rates.
Something else we lost with the PC.

>
>
>> As a side note, I did get the system to boot and run from my floppy
>> emulator with a USB stick.  Have to boot twice.  First time you get
>> the unrecognized format error second time boots fine. Interesting.
>> Good to know for when I am testing on other systems as well.
>> Small steps, but advancing, just the same.
>
> Good luck!

Thanks.

bill

Re: P112

[Dennis Boone via cctalk]

 > I see one about partitioning but not sure how one gets the FDISK
 > utility onto a bootable P112 floppy.

The cpmtools has a diskdef for the p112 formats.  One could therefore
copy from images to actual floppies, assuming the needed hardware can be
coaxed into connectivity with a supported os.  (Windows and Linux, at
least, are supported.)

De

Re: P112

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

I do have to admit that I find it hard to believe that the cable to the
floppy can actually make a difference.

A minor point, . . .
On 5150/5160/5170, the SECOND drive is a straight cable, FIRST drive
is crossed.  Thus, drive A: is at the end of the cable, B: is in the
middle of the cable.


On Sun, 8 Apr 2018, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:

Yeah, knew that from other systems.  IBM really screwed that up.
Should have left it the way it was and have people set the Drive Select
themselves.


Yep!
IBM didn't think that users could be trusted to get that right.
Or at least Computerland couldn't be trusted to get it right.

Radio Shack used a different approach to drive select by cable instead of 
making use of the well documented drive select on the drive.
Radio shack jumpered all drive selects on on the drive, and pulled pins in 
the cable.
As opposed to IBM jumpering both drives as B: and twisting the cable for 
A: (which also provided different control of motor)




IF that is correct, then your first drie is straight through. That
also means that an unkeyed cable can be reversed, as one more to try.

Reversed cable will result in the drive being active constantly.
Easily noted by the LED being on constant and the drive running.


I meant reversing BOTH ends, end for end, giving same wiring.
in case some lines of the cable are flaky.


I did not see any mention of the disk format.
If it is 512 bytes per sector MFM, with sequential sector numbering, 
then even USB drives should work for making disks.
A different sector size, or even numbering sectors from 0, would be
problematic for some USB drives.


I have no idea of the format.  I got the images and rawrite.exe and
told the computer to make them.  They were unusable when I used
a USB External floppy but worked fine when I used a real internal
floppy.


Since they mimiced the 5150 cabling, I was hoping that maybe they had made 
the format similar, or at least the same physical format.
There are more efficient physical formats (using 1024 bytes per sector 
easily gives you 400k/800K instead of 360K/720K)




I need to get the systems running before I start playing with reading
and writing weird formats.  But that is coming.


Should be fun.
Is the FDC a 765 variant?
or a WD 179x variant?



As a side note, I did get the system to boot and run from my floppy
emulator with a USB stick.  Have to boot twice.  First time you get
the unrecognized format error second time boots fine.  Interesting.
Good to know for when I am testing on other systems as well.
Small steps, but advancing, just the same.


Good luck!

--
Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com

Re: P112

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

On 04/08/2018 01:34 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
> On Sun, 8 Apr 2018, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
>> I do have to admit that I find it hard to believe that the cable to the
>> floppy can actually make a difference.
>
> A minor point, . . .
> On 5150/5160/5170, the SECOND drive is a straight cable, FIRST drive 
> is crossed.  Thus, drive A: is at the end of the cable, B: is in the 
> middle of the cable.

Yeah, knew that from other systems.  IBM really screwed that up.
Should have left it the way it was and have people set the Drive Select
themselves.

>
> The P112 manual
> https://661.org/p112/files/p112-doc.pdf   Page 10
> calls for the reverse, with FIRST drive before the twist, SECOND drive 
> after the twist.
> IF that is correct, then your first drie is straight through. That 
> also means that an unkeyed cable can be reversed, as one more to try.

Reversed cable will result in the drive being active constantly.
Easily noted by the LED being on constant and the drive running.

>
>
> Termination is rarely an issue with 3.5 inch drives, and not usually 
> the problem with 5.25".   5.25" has explicit provision for 
> termination, but wrong termination usually results in slightly less 
> reliability, not often a total failure to read.

Just using 3.5" at the moment.

>
>
> I did not see any mention of the disk format.
> If it is 512 bytes per sector MFM, with sequential sector numbering,  
> then even USB drives should work for making disks.
> A different sector size, or even numbering sectors from 0, would be 
> problematic for some USB drives.

I have no idea of the format.  I got the images and rawrite.exe and
told the computer to make them.  They were unusable when I used
a USB External floppy but worked fine when I used a real internal
floppy.

I need to get the systems running before I start playing with reading
and writing weird formats.  But that is coming.

As a side note, I did get the system to boot and run from my floppy
emulator with a USB stick.  Have to boot twice.  First time you get
the unrecognized format error second time boots fine.  Interesting.
Good to know for when I am testing on other systems as well.

Small steps, but advancing, just the same.

bill

Re: P112

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

On Sun, 8 Apr 2018, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:

I do have to admit that I find it hard to believe that the cable to the
floppy can actually make a difference.


A minor point, . . .
On 5150/5160/5170, the SECOND drive is a straight cable, FIRST drive is 
crossed.  Thus, drive A: is at the end of the cable, B: is in the middle 
of the cable.


The P112 manual
https://661.org/p112/files/p112-doc.pdf   Page 10
calls for the reverse, with FIRST drive before the twist, SECOND drive 
after the twist.
IF that is correct, then your first drie is straight through.  That also 
means that an unkeyed cable can be reversed, as one more to try.



Termination is rarely an issue with 3.5 inch drives, and not usually the 
problem with 5.25".   5.25" has explicit provision for termination, but 
wrong termination usually results in slightly less reliability, not often 
a total failure to read.



I did not see any mention of the disk format.
If it is 512 bytes per sector MFM, with sequential sector numbering,  then 
even USB drives should work for making disks.
A different sector size, or even numbering sectors from 0, would be 
problematic for some USB drives.

Re: P112

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

On 04/08/2018 01:02 PM, Dennis Boone wrote:
>   > I am going to go back now and retest a bunch of the floppy drives and
>   > cables to see if there really is a problem or if it was just the
>   > images.  Of course, this means my original floppy is bad so I need to
>   > find another copy as I think the stuff I need to use the GIDE was on
>   > there.  I read somewhere that there is a copy on the CD.  I wonder
>   > where that might be?  :-)
>
> The random failure thing makes me wonder about some floppy timing
> parameter being just-almost too short.
>
> Does either of these sites have any of what you need in terms of
> software?
>
> http://p112.sourceforge.net/index.php?downloads
> http://stack180.com/P112%20Downloads.htm

Got both of them.

Anybody have any step by step instructions for intalling OSes
to an IDE on the GIDE?  I see one about partitioning but not
sure how one gets the FDISK utility onto a bootable P112 floppy.

bill

Re: P112

[Dennis Boone via cctalk]

 > I am going to go back now and retest a bunch of the floppy drives and
 > cables to see if there really is a problem or if it was just the
 > images.  Of course, this means my original floppy is bad so I need to
 > find another copy as I think the stuff I need to use the GIDE was on
 > there.  I read somewhere that there is a copy on the CD.  I wonder
 > where that might be?  :-)

The random failure thing makes me wonder about some floppy timing
parameter being just-almost too short.

Does either of these sites have any of what you need in terms of
software?

http://p112.sourceforge.net/index.php?downloads
http://stack180.com/P112%20Downloads.htm

De

Re: P112

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

Success!!!   Up to a point.

I have it booting on a floppy.  I have confirmed that you can,
apparently, not make disk images with an external USB Floppy
drive.

I am going to go back now and retest a bunch of the floppy drives
and cables to see if there really is a problem or if it was just the
images.  Of course, this means my original floppy is bad so I
need to find another copy as I think the stuff I need to use the
GIDE was on there.  I read somewhere that there is a copy on
the CD.  I wonder where that might be?  :-)

In case anyone is interested, I have a handful of floppy emulators
that use USB sticks.  Gonna give them a try, too.  What they work
with seems to be a real crapshoot.

Oh yeah, once I have the hard disk working it will be time to try
8" disks, too.

All t his could be real fun.

bill

Re: P112

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

Some more data points.

I have tried four different floppy cables and 6 different floppy
drives (different brands, as well).

I  had one combination where it actually booted the P112/GIDE
floppy.  Got sector read errors.  But wait, it gets better.  I rebooted
about a half dozen times.  The errors move.  Never the same sectors
twice.  What the system does depends on which sectors fail to read.
None of the disks created with winrawwrite work.  I am going to
assume at this point that USB floppies can not be used to build these
images.  I have a dos box with a real floppy interface but moving stuff
to it is not easy. (time to fire up Kermit again!!)

In most cases I get "unrecognizable disk format" or
"error reading boot track(s)" followed by "unrecognizable disk format".

I do have to admit that I find it hard to believe that the cable to the
floppy can actually make a difference.

bill

Re: P112

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

On 04/08/2018 06:12 AM, Torfinn Ingolfsen via cctalk wrote:
> I have a P112 (bought as a kit) which I have assembled and plyed with a bit.
> Your description doesn't mention it, so we need more details:
> - did you build the P112 yourself, or did it come pre-assembled?

Bought it assembled and tested.

> - has it been working before? Or is this your first time trying it?

First time I have tried it.

> - which version of the ROM does it have?

ROM v5.7  dated 1 Oct. 2014

> - what are you trying to boot from, floppy or IDE?

Floppy now, eventually it will be IDE.

>
> Hope this helps a little.

It's a start.  Too cold to go outside again so I guess I get to play 
with it more today.

bill

Re: P112

[Torfinn Ingolfsen via cctalk]

I have a P112 (bought as a kit) which I have assembled and plyed with a bit.
Your description doesn't mention it, so we need more details:
- did you build the P112 yourself, or did it come pre-assembled?
- has it been working before? Or is this your first time trying it?
- which version of the ROM does it have?
- what are you trying to boot from, floppy or IDE?

Hope this helps a little.

On Sun, Apr 8, 2018 at 2:36 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk
 wrote:
>
> It's not really Classic Hardware, but it does run some pretty classic
>
> OSes.  Anybody here working with the P112?  I have had a couple for
>
> ages but never had time to play with them.  I see them now as a
>
> possible way to manipulate floppies (including 8") from classic systems
>
> so I decided to give it a try.  Problem is, it won't boot anything.  Not the
>
> disk that came with it and none of the images I got off the web.
>
>
> Anybody here know anything about them?
>
>
> bill
>
>



-- 
Regards,
Torfinn Ingolfsen

Re: P112 supplies are exhausted

[Fredrik Axtelius via cctalk]

I want one... Full kit preferred.

--frax

On Wed, Jul 26, 2017 at 10:35 AM, David Griffith via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

>
> I've sold the last of my P112 boards.  Is there still any interest in P112
> kits or boards?
>
> --
> David Griffith
> d...@661.org
>
> A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text.
> Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
> A: Top-posting.
> Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?
>