Re: P112 Floppy Controller
On 4/23/22 13:12, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Sat, 23 Apr 2022, Craig Ruff via cctech wrote: >> The P112's floppy controller is the one in the SMSC FDC37C665IR >> SuperIO chip. The data sheet states it is a 2.88 MB "Licensed CMOS >> 765B Floppy Disk Controller" and claims 100% IBM compatibility (for >> what that's worth). > > 2.8M (it is not "2.88" unless MB is 1024,000) means that it includes a > 1000K data transfer rate > > 765B means essentially the same FDC as PC (NEC 765 based) > I think I've got the SMSC Super I/O in one of my systems. Recollection is that it does FM just fine.
Re: P112 Floppy Controller
On Sat, 23 Apr 2022, Craig Ruff via cctech wrote: The P112's floppy controller is the one in the SMSC FDC37C665IR SuperIO chip. The data sheet states it is a 2.88 MB "Licensed CMOS 765B Floppy Disk Controller" and claims 100% IBM compatibility (for what that's worth). 2.8M (it is not "2.88" unless MB is 1024,000) means that it includes a 1000K data transfer rate 765B means essentially the same FDC as PC (NEC 765 based) Does it also support FM? 125K data transfer rate (TRS80, Early Osborne)
Re: P112 Floppy Controller
The P112's floppy controller is the one in the SMSC FDC37C665IR SuperIO chip. The data sheet states it is a 2.88 MB "Licensed CMOS 765B Floppy Disk Controller" and claims 100% IBM compatibility (for what that's worth).
Re: P112
On 12/2/19 6:10 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > It starts out with no partitions and claims the partition table > is not a valid P112 table. The "w" command fixes that but the > table is still empty. Interestingly enough, a 64M CF in an IDE > adapter works with FDISK. but then when I try to "INIT" it under > RSX180 it prints a stream of garbage on the screen and does nothing > to the disk/CF. You found a bug in the INIt program: it was supposed to output an error message saying that the partition is bigger than 32M and then exit, but some reason the address of the message went to the wrong register pair, and I never tested for that case. I've uploaded a fix, as well as new floppy images. Note also that FDISK is a rather old program, and as such will not work properly with modern drives larger than 256Mb, and it doesn't do LBA either (time to write a new version?). Hector.
Re: P112
On 12/3/19 11:00 PM, Lamar Owen wrote: > > > On Dec 3, 2019 8:55 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctech > wrote: > > Especially RSX180 as I have some other plans for that one. > > RSX180? Learn about something new everyday! This tidbit alone was > worth watching the thread. > Well, glad it helped. And here's more... I have succeeded in getting RSX-180 installed on a hard disk. In doing so I have learned some things that others might consider valuable as well. Disk sizes and formats are more important than one might realize from reading the support page. Oversized hard disk partitions cause really strange behavior totally unrelated to disk I/O. When I tried to use a disk partition that was too big the system merely spewed garbage to the screen. But the second lesson is even more important. The Support Page states: "For best performance format the floppy first under CP/M, so the sectors will have the optimum interleave value for the P112 hardware. Otherwise, disk accesses will be very slow." This is not accurate. When I used a brand new pre-formatted floppy without formatting it under CP/M it booted but many of the commands failed to work and even th4e directory could not be seen. Formatting on CP/M and then using rawrite to place the image on the floppy fixed that. I have been having a problem getting CP/M 3 to boot and now suspect it may be the same problem. Again, I used a pre-formatted brand new floppy and rawrite. When I try to boot it starts loading and then spews what looks like random garbage to the screen. I am going to try using a CP/M formatted floppy and I actually expect it will fix the problem. bill
Re: P112
Hi Bill, On Wed, Dec 04, 2019 at 01:06:39AM +, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > On 12/3/19 7:51 PM, Craig Ruff via cctech wrote: > > Just in case someone else hasn't already responded, the P112 does not use > > DOS style fdisk partitioning for a hard disk. It is done in the BIOS image, > > and then the logical disks have to be initialized. This is described in the > > "P112 GIDE Construction.pdf" document. > > > > I've only used 3.5" floppies, which work fine. You can also attach a PATA > > CD-ROM drive and access disks with a program that escapes my memory at the > > moment. > > > > Along this line I have solved one problem. I mentioned INIT in > RSX180 printing gibberish on the screen when trying to init a > hard disk partition where it had worked on a floppy. Problem > was the size of the partitions. I had tried just making one > partition for the test I learned that FDISK will make partitions > too big for any of the P112 OSes. I now have a hard disk with > 5 partitions to play with. On to the next problem. > > bill I have a pair of P112 systems, both with GIDE interfaces, booting CP/M from CF cards successfully. I have not done anything with RSX180 though. I have been meaning to try and get one reading/writing 8", ideally 3270 format, CP/M floppies, but have not gotten around to working on this yet, and have no idea how easy or difficult that might be. When I put these together and was getting them working initially, Terry Gulczynski was very helpful. See his site at http://www.stack180.com/ You may want to get the latest P112 ROM image and corresponding CF card image from his site. Mark -- Mark G. Thomas , KC3DRE
Re: P112
On 12/3/19 8:15 PM, Fred Cisin via cctech wrote: > On Wed, 4 Dec 2019, Bill Gunshannon via cctech wrote: >> Along this line I have solved one problem. I mentioned INIT in >> RSX180 printing gibberish on the screen when trying to init a >> hard disk partition where it had worked on a floppy. Problem >> was the size of the partitions. I had tried just making one >> partition for the test I learned that FDISK will make partitions >> too big for any of the P112 OSes. I now have a hard disk with >> 5 partitions to play with. On to the next problem. > > Is it a specific size limit? > (something on the order of number of bits for block number?) Don't know, but I suspect it's around 32M. I seem to remember seeing something mentioned somewhere. I just divided a 42M Seagate into 5 partitions to play with. I may test the limits eventually but for right now I would just like to get some of the OSes loaded on the hard disk so I can work with them. Especially RSX180 as I have some other plans for that one. bill
Re: P112
On Wed, 4 Dec 2019, Bill Gunshannon via cctech wrote: Along this line I have solved one problem. I mentioned INIT in RSX180 printing gibberish on the screen when trying to init a hard disk partition where it had worked on a floppy. Problem was the size of the partitions. I had tried just making one partition for the test I learned that FDISK will make partitions too big for any of the P112 OSes. I now have a hard disk with 5 partitions to play with. On to the next problem. Is it a specific size limit? (something on the order of number of bits for block number?)
Re: P112
On 12/3/19 7:51 PM, Craig Ruff via cctech wrote: > Just in case someone else hasn't already responded, the P112 does not use DOS > style fdisk partitioning for a hard disk. It is done in the BIOS image, and > then the logical disks have to be initialized. This is described in the "P112 > GIDE Construction.pdf" document. > > I've only used 3.5" floppies, which work fine. You can also attach a PATA > CD-ROM drive and access disks with a program that escapes my memory at the > moment. > Along this line I have solved one problem. I mentioned INIT in RSX180 printing gibberish on the screen when trying to init a hard disk partition where it had worked on a floppy. Problem was the size of the partitions. I had tried just making one partition for the test I learned that FDISK will make partitions too big for any of the P112 OSes. I now have a hard disk with 5 partitions to play with. On to the next problem. bill
Re: P112
Just in case someone else hasn't already responded, the P112 does not use DOS style fdisk partitioning for a hard disk. It is done in the BIOS image, and then the logical disks have to be initialized. This is described in the "P112 GIDE Construction.pdf" document. I've only used 3.5" floppies, which work fine. You can also attach a PATA CD-ROM drive and access disks with a program that escapes my memory at the moment.
Re: P112
On 12/2/19 8:36 PM, Dennis Boone via cctalk wrote: > > The menu you get when you hit Escape on startup has an option for > > setting a floppy as 8". Mine is ROM 5.7 which I believe is the next > > to last. Unless it is different than the other CP/M systems I have > > FORMAT should have no hardware dependent code in it. It was the OS > > that tracked and controlled what the underlying format of the > > floppies were. > > That's literally the only thing I could find. I can't see any place > where a DPB is defined for an 8" drive. If the DPB is wrong, FORMAT > will misbehave. I'd be utterly unsurprised if more parameters than just > cylinder count weren't wrong. > > You might try examining the active DPBs for the system to see what all > it's using, and even correct it with a monitor or debugger. I put 8" on a back burner for the moment. > > > > I haven't had mine out in a while, but last I did, the GIDE did > > > work. Seems like there was some ordering of operations on HD setup > > > that I did wrong the first time. > > The more I think about this, the more I think maybe the thing that > "fixed" mine was wiping the drive before trying FDISK. Wiping with what. > > You didn't show the full FDISK session, or a listing of what partitions > it thinks are there to begin with. That might help shake free thoughts > from others. It starts out with no partitions and claims the partition table is not a valid P112 table. The "w" command fixes that but the table is still empty. Interestingly enough, a 64M CF in an IDE adapter works with FDISK. but then when I try to "INIT" it under RSX180 it prints a stream of garbage on the screen and does nothing to the disk/CF. Not sure how much longer I am likely to keep beating my head against the wall. bill
Re: P112
> The menu you get when you hit Escape on startup has an option for > setting a floppy as 8". Mine is ROM 5.7 which I believe is the next > to last. Unless it is different than the other CP/M systems I have > FORMAT should have no hardware dependent code in it. It was the OS > that tracked and controlled what the underlying format of the > floppies were. That's literally the only thing I could find. I can't see any place where a DPB is defined for an 8" drive. If the DPB is wrong, FORMAT will misbehave. I'd be utterly unsurprised if more parameters than just cylinder count weren't wrong. You might try examining the active DPBs for the system to see what all it's using, and even correct it with a monitor or debugger. > > I haven't had mine out in a while, but last I did, the GIDE did > > work. Seems like there was some ordering of operations on HD setup > > that I did wrong the first time. The more I think about this, the more I think maybe the thing that "fixed" mine was wiping the drive before trying FDISK. You didn't show the full FDISK session, or a listing of what partitions it thinks are there to begin with. That might help shake free thoughts from others. Does dgriffi lurk on this list? De
Re: P112
On 12/2/19 4:55 PM, Dennis Boone via cctalk wrote: > > Well, I have the dBit FDADAP. Works great. I have used them before > > on a PC to access PDP-11 disks from PUTR and E11. The P112 claims to > > support 8" but I am finding it unlikely. If it (well, at least the > > OSes it runs) don't even know it only has 77 tracks I can't see how > > anyone has done 8" disks on it. > > I went spelunking in the ROM and BIOS sources the other day, and I don't > see any 8" drive stuff in there at all -- it's all 3.5" and 5.25". I > looked at FORMAT too. Am I looking at old code? The menu you get when you hit Escape on startup has an option for setting a floppy as 8". Mine is ROM 5.7 which I believe is the next to last. Unless it is different than the other CP/M systems I have FORMAT should have no hardware dependent code in it. It was the OS that tracked and controlled what the underlying format of the floppies were. > > > Why am I getting this sneaking suspicion that none of this stuff > > actually works? > > I haven't had mine out in a while, but last I did, the GIDE did work. > Seems like there was some ordering of operations on HD setup that I did > wrong the first time. The GIDE seems to work. It appears to be FDISK that is broken. Given that, unless people had custom versions of FDISK I fail to see how anyone set up a hard disk on a P112. > > It doesn't help that there are no docs for the thing other than whatever > paper came with it. Thus the reason for me searching places like this for help. :-) > > Sanity check your software versions? Mixing and matching variants can > be problematic since there are several generations and several forks of > the P112 and GIDE stuff; and there's at least one version of FORMAT > that's reputed to have a serious bug. No mix or match. Just using the images provided on the CD that came with it. FORMAT works OK for 3.5" disks. I have had no luck trying to FORMAT 5.25" or 8" floppies. And I can't even get that far on a hard disk. bill
Re: P112
> Well, I have the dBit FDADAP. Works great. I have used them before > on a PC to access PDP-11 disks from PUTR and E11. The P112 claims to > support 8" but I am finding it unlikely. If it (well, at least the > OSes it runs) don't even know it only has 77 tracks I can't see how > anyone has done 8" disks on it. I went spelunking in the ROM and BIOS sources the other day, and I don't see any 8" drive stuff in there at all -- it's all 3.5" and 5.25". I looked at FORMAT too. Am I looking at old code? > Why am I getting this sneaking suspicion that none of this stuff > actually works? I haven't had mine out in a while, but last I did, the GIDE did work. Seems like there was some ordering of operations on HD setup that I did wrong the first time. It doesn't help that there are no docs for the thing other than whatever paper came with it. Sanity check your software versions? Mixing and matching variants can be problematic since there are several generations and several forks of the P112 and GIDE stuff; and there's at least one version of FORMAT that's reputed to have a serious bug. De
Re: P112
On 12/2/19 11:31 AM, Lamar Owen wrote: > > > As far as 8-inch drives are concerned, you would need to do exactly > everything you would need to do to hook up an 8-inch drive to a PC, > since the P112 uses a PC SuperIO chip for the FDC, and the floppy > headers have PC pinouts and signal meanings (unlike the CPU280.). > The dBit FDADAP or similar would be needed to generate TG43 as well as > translate the pinout correctly. I haven't tried single-density support > on the P112, so don't know if that would work or not, but the SuperIO > chip used should be able to do that. > > Well, I have the dBit FDADAP. Works great. I have used them before on a PC to access PDP-11 disks from PUTR and E11. The P112 claims to support 8" but I am finding it unlikely. If it (well, at least the OSes it runs) don't even know it only has 77 tracks I can't see how anyone has done 8" disks on it. And then I went on to try the GIDE. I can't get FDISK to create partitions of any kind. I get Command (h for help) : n Partition number (1-8) : 1 First cylinder (1-17455, default 1) : 1 Value out of range And that is what I get no matter what value I enter. Why am I getting this sneaking suspicion that none of this stuff actually works? bill
Re: P112
On 11/29/19 7:01 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: Let's try again with the right name in the Subject line! It's not really classic (although it does try to pretend to be but does anyone here do anything with the P112 SBC? I am trying to get 8" disks running on it but I am seeing some rather strange behavior. Well, the P112 is a classic of sorts, being a mid-1990's design (much like the CPU280 from Tilmann Reh that I 'revived' a couple of years back, and still have PCBs leftover :-) ). The P112 kit was, up until a few months ago, still available from David Griffith (661.org, which you've already found). I bought two while I was buying a few years back, and built up one of them, which I still use a bit with a GIDE from Terry. I am actually planning to port the TRS-80 Model 4's LS-DOS 6 to it for fun, but haven't had time to work too much with it. I was actually thinking about fabbing a few boards to try out faster Z80182 chips (officially there is a 33MHz version that has been overclocked by some to well over that speed) rather than risk desoldering the 16MHz '182 from one of the two kit boards I bought, so, for David Griffith's benefit, I would be interested in a bare board or three myself if he decides to fab some. Sourcing the SuperIO and doing the fine-pitch SMD soldering will be a bit of a challenge, but worth it I believe. As far as 8-inch drives are concerned, you would need to do exactly everything you would need to do to hook up an 8-inch drive to a PC, since the P112 uses a PC SuperIO chip for the FDC, and the floppy headers have PC pinouts and signal meanings (unlike the CPU280.). The dBit FDADAP or similar would be needed to generate TG43 as well as translate the pinout correctly. I haven't tried single-density support on the P112, so don't know if that would work or not, but the SuperIO chip used should be able to do that.
Re: P112 [Don Maslin Archive]
On 12/1/19 2:40 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > TG43 is absolutely NOT needed for reading. TG43 is also referred to as "RWC" reduced write current. Mostly useful for FM recording; MFM uses precompensation, which subtly shifts the timing of write pulses. --Chuck
Re: P112 [Don Maslin Archive]
On Sun, 1 Dec 2019, David Griffith via cctalk wrote: On the 8" drive question, I haven't done it myself, but I've received reports from people who've successfully used them with the P112. It involves pretending they're HD 5.25" drives and using a hardware shim to deliver more current when writing to tracks greater than X. I don't recall the specifics though. As bill mentioned, though, 1.2M drives have 80 tracks; 8" have 77 tracks. Otherwise, the 1.2M is a 5.25" version of an 8" drive in most respects. In fact, the first one that I ever got (at a swap) was a Mitsubishi, that had a 50 pin connector! "TG43" "Standard" (well, they sorta almost were) 8" drives, when they are on a track greater then cylinder #43 use a reduced current when writing. Some drives expect a signal on pin 2 from the FDC to tell them; some have internal support for it, with the drive keeping track of the current track, and don't need that signal (such as Shugart 860, and the later versions of Tandon 848 (1E?, 2E?)) Disk controllers intended for 8" drives will usually have it. PC controllers do not include it. The DBIT FDADAP adapter (that I think Bill is using) handles it (in addition to the 34 pin to 50 pin cable pinouts) Recent ones also have a 2 digit display of track number. Seek errors are not unknown, especially if the track to track step time is faster than the drive can keep up with (cf. Qume 142), so it is sometimes necessary to do a seek to track 0 and count steps back in again, to correct track number. TG43 is absolutely NOT needed for reading. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com
Re: P112 [Don Maslin Archive]
On Sun, 1 Dec 2019, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote: On Sun, Dec 1, 2019, 12:09 PM Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: Here's the archive http://www.retroarchive.org/maslin/ HERE is the archive https://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102703903 Another curator and I went down to San Diego and both ended up with heat exhaustion recovering it from a storage unit in the middle of summer. you're welcome.. Thank you. Btw, how does one access this archive? You don't. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!
Re: P112 [Don Maslin Archive]
On Sun, 1 Dec 2019, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: Here's the archive http://www.retroarchive.org/maslin/ HERE is the archive https://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102703903 Another curator and I went down to San Diego and both ended up with heat exhaustion recovering it from a storage unit in the middle of summer. It looks like a really cool list of stuff that nobody has access to... Thanks! g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!
Re: P112 [Don Maslin Archive]
On Sun, Dec 1, 2019, 12:09 PM Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > > Here's the archive > > > > http://www.retroarchive.org/maslin/ > > > HERE is the archive > > https://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102703903 > > Another curator and I went down to San Diego and both ended up with heat > exhaustion > recovering it from a storage unit in the middle of summer. > > you're welcome.. > Thank you. Btw, how does one access this archive? Warner > >
Re: P112 [Don Maslin Archive]
On December 1, 2019 11:09:29 AM PST, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > >> Here's the archive >> >> http://www.retroarchive.org/maslin/ > > >HERE is the archive > >https://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102703903 > >Another curator and I went down to San Diego and both ended up with >heat exhaustion >recovering it from a storage unit in the middle of summer. > >you're welcome.. Thanks. I remember that summer when I sold several of Don's machines for his niece. -- David Griffith d...@661.org
Re: P112 [Don Maslin Archive]
> Here's the archive > > http://www.retroarchive.org/maslin/ HERE is the archive https://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102703903 Another curator and I went down to San Diego and both ended up with heat exhaustion recovering it from a storage unit in the middle of summer. you're welcome..
Re: P112 [Don Maslin Archive]
On December 1, 2019 9:52:03 AM PST, jim stephens via cctalk wrote: > > >On 12/1/2019 8:19 AM, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote: >> >> On 2019/11/30 23:32:55 -0800, jim stephens via cctalk wrote: >>> On 11/30/2019 9:45 PM, Eric Dittman via cctalk wrote: >>>> On 11/30/2019 8:34 PM, jim stephens via cctalk wrote: >>>>> >> >> [snip] >> >>> >>> Links.txt >>> >> >> [snip] >> >>> http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/img/index.htm >>> Daves Old Computers - Disk/Software Images. Boot disks for lots >>> of different vintage computers are here. It's not nearly the >>> size of Don Maslin's lost archive, but it's a start. >>> >> >> I don't keep up with CP/M etc but I thought I recall it being >> announced that Don Maslin's lost archive had been recovered? >> >Here's the archive > >http://www.retroarchive.org/maslin/ > >P112 I think is way newer than anything related though. Correct. On the 8" drive question, I haven't done it myself, but I've received reports from people who've successfully used them with the P112. It involves pretending they're HD 5.25" drives and using a hardware shim to deliver more current when writing to tracks greater than X. I don't recall the specifics though. BTW, I'm the one who's been selling them since Dave Brookes stopped doing so. I'm out of boards again and probably won't be doing any more runs with surface-mounts preinstalled on account of the difficulty of finding large quantities of new and pristine super-IO chips. I might do a new run of naked boards. -- David Griffith d...@661.org
Re: P112 [Don Maslin Archive]
On 12/1/2019 8:19 AM, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote: On 2019/11/30 23:32:55 -0800, jim stephens via cctalk wrote: On 11/30/2019 9:45 PM, Eric Dittman via cctalk wrote: On 11/30/2019 8:34 PM, jim stephens via cctalk wrote: [snip] Links.txt [snip] http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/img/index.htm Daves Old Computers - Disk/Software Images. Boot disks for lots of different vintage computers are here. It's not nearly the size of Don Maslin's lost archive, but it's a start. I don't keep up with CP/M etc but I thought I recall it being announced that Don Maslin's lost archive had been recovered? Here's the archive http://www.retroarchive.org/maslin/ P112 I think is way newer than anything related though. Regards, Peter Coghlan.
Re: P112
On 2019/11/30 23:32:55 -0800, jim stephens via cctalk wrote: On 11/30/2019 9:45 PM, Eric Dittman via cctalk wrote: On 11/30/2019 8:34 PM, jim stephens via cctalk wrote: [snip] Links.txt [snip] http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/img/index.htm Daves Old Computers - Disk/Software Images. Boot disks for lots of different vintage computers are here. It's not nearly the size of Don Maslin's lost archive, but it's a start. I don't keep up with CP/M etc but I thought I recall it being announced that Don Maslin's lost archive had been recovered? Regards, Peter Coghlan.
Re: P112
On 11/30/2019 8:34 PM, jim stephens via cctalk wrote: On 11/30/2019 6:15 PM, Richard Cini via cctalk wrote: The current P112 is a reissue from years ago, right? I remember I had one — and I may still have it somewhere — but I only used it with 3.5” drives. Somehow I think it was built that way by design (the board outline fit on a drive). I don’t know how available the code is, but I would look at the firmware on the board. To me it sounds like it has a bad drive definition. The 8272 is pretty easy to program for (I use it on my IMSAI). As an aside, I use a modified YD-380 (5.25” HD) drive to replace the 8” drives on my IMSAI so as a quick test you could use one of those. At least it can step to 80 tracks and has the same speed and bit rate. I have instructions on my site how to use it. Rich I have a archive and a board which I bought with the TCP option, as well as CF adapter, etc. I can share it if it's not available online Here is the contents I have. -rw-r--r--+ 1 1003 nogroup 915852 Sep 9 2000 bootdisk.img.gz drwxrwxrwx+ 1 1003 nogroup 270 Oct 9 2014 daveb drwxrwxrwx+ 1 98 98 674 Apr 9 2018 downloads-stack180 drwxrwxrwx+ 1 98 98 274 Apr 9 2018 gide drwxrwxrwx+ 1 98 98 954 Apr 9 2018 hal-bower drwxr-xr-x+ 1 1003 nogroup 574 Oct 9 2014 p112 drwxrwxrwx+ 1 98 98 552 Apr 9 2018 p112-2018 -rw-r--r--+ 1 1003 nogroup 331632 Sep 19 2014 p112-doc.pdf -rw-r--r--+ 1 1003 nogroup 14305 Sep 9 2000 rawrite.exe -rw-r--r--+ 1 1003 nogroup 357891 Oct 22 2005 sc102205.img.gz -rw-r--r--+ 1 1003 nogroup 445535 Nov 11 2005 sc05.img.gz -rw-r--r--+ 1 1003 nogroup 436332 Nov 30 2005 sc113005.img.gz drwxr-xr-x+ 1 1003 nogroup 3660 Oct 9 2014 tcj-archive drwxr-xr-x+ 1 1003 nogroup 268 Oct 9 2014 web -rw-r--r--+ 1 1003 nogroup 660331 Oct 17 2005 zs101805.img.gz -rw-r--r--+ 1 1003 nogroup 513625 Oct 21 2005 zs102205.img.gz -rw-r--r--+ 1 1003 nogroup 612086 Nov 11 2005 zs05.img.gz -rw-r--r--+ 1 1003 nogroup 552969 Nov 30 2005 zs113005.img.gz drwxr-xr-x+ 1 1003 nogroup 260 Oct 9 2014 zsdos -rw-r--r--+ 1 1003 nogroup 554479 Apr 22 2009 zsdos.pdf What's in the p112-2018 directory?
Re: P112
On Sat, Nov 30, 2019, 9:34 PM jim stephens via cctalk wrote: > > > On 11/30/2019 6:15 PM, Richard Cini via cctalk wrote: > > > > > > > > > > The current P112 is a reissue from years ago, right? I remember I > had one — and I may still have it somewhere — but I only used it with 3.5” > drives. Somehow I think it was built that way by design (the board outline > fit on a drive). > > I don’t know how available the code is, but I would look at the firmware > on the board. To me it sounds like it has a bad drive definition. The 8272 > is pretty easy to program for (I use it on my IMSAI). > > As an aside, I use a modified YD-380 (5.25” HD) drive to replace the 8” > drives on my IMSAI so as a quick test you could use one of those. At least > it can step to 80 tracks and has the same speed and bit rate. I have > instructions on my site how to use it. > > Rich > > > I have a archive and a board which I bought with the TCP option, as well > as CF adapter, etc. > > I can share it if it's not available online > > Here is the contents I have. > > -rw-r--r--+ 1 1003 nogroup 915852 Sep 9 2000 bootdisk.img.gz > drwxrwxrwx+ 1 1003 nogroup270 Oct 9 2014 daveb > drwxrwxrwx+ 1 98 98674 Apr 9 2018 downloads-stack180 > drwxrwxrwx+ 1 98 98274 Apr 9 2018 gide > drwxrwxrwx+ 1 98 98954 Apr 9 2018 hal-bower > drwxr-xr-x+ 1 1003 nogroup 574 Oct 9 2014 p112 > drwxrwxrwx+ 1 98 98552 Apr 9 2018 p112-2018 > -rw-r--r--+ 1 1003 nogroup 331632 Sep 19 2014 p112-doc.pdf > -rw-r--r--+ 1 1003 nogroup 14305 Sep 9 2000 rawrite.exe > -rw-r--r--+ 1 1003 nogroup 357891 Oct 22 2005 sc102205.img.gz > -rw-r--r--+ 1 1003 nogroup 445535 Nov 11 2005 sc05.img.gz > -rw-r--r--+ 1 1003 nogroup 436332 Nov 30 2005 sc113005.img.gz > drwxr-xr-x+ 1 1003 nogroup 3660 Oct 9 2014 tcj-archive > drwxr-xr-x+ 1 1003 nogroup268 Oct 9 2014 web > -rw-r--r--+ 1 1003 nogroup 660331 Oct 17 2005 zs101805.img.gz > -rw-r--r--+ 1 1003 nogroup 513625 Oct 21 2005 zs102205.img.gz > -rw-r--r--+ 1 1003 nogroup 612086 Nov 11 2005 zs05.img.gz > -rw-r--r--+ 1 1003 nogroup 552969 Nov 30 2005 zs113005.img.gz > drwxr-xr-x+ 1 1003 nogroup260 Oct 9 2014 zsdos > -rw-r--r--+ 1 1003 nogroup 554479 Apr 22 2009 zsdos.pdf > Today at our workshop meeting we got one of these up and running. We have worshops in Kennett Square monthly if you're in the Philadelphia area. I can put you in touch with the owner off line if you'd like. Bill >
Re: P112
On 11/30/2019 6:15 PM, Richard Cini via cctalk wrote: The current P112 is a reissue from years ago, right? I remember I had one — and I may still have it somewhere — but I only used it with 3.5” drives. Somehow I think it was built that way by design (the board outline fit on a drive). I don’t know how available the code is, but I would look at the firmware on the board. To me it sounds like it has a bad drive definition. The 8272 is pretty easy to program for (I use it on my IMSAI). As an aside, I use a modified YD-380 (5.25” HD) drive to replace the 8” drives on my IMSAI so as a quick test you could use one of those. At least it can step to 80 tracks and has the same speed and bit rate. I have instructions on my site how to use it. Rich I have a archive and a board which I bought with the TCP option, as well as CF adapter, etc. I can share it if it's not available online Here is the contents I have. -rw-r--r--+ 1 1003 nogroup 915852 Sep 9 2000 bootdisk.img.gz drwxrwxrwx+ 1 1003 nogroup 270 Oct 9 2014 daveb drwxrwxrwx+ 1 98 98 674 Apr 9 2018 downloads-stack180 drwxrwxrwx+ 1 98 98 274 Apr 9 2018 gide drwxrwxrwx+ 1 98 98 954 Apr 9 2018 hal-bower drwxr-xr-x+ 1 1003 nogroup 574 Oct 9 2014 p112 drwxrwxrwx+ 1 98 98 552 Apr 9 2018 p112-2018 -rw-r--r--+ 1 1003 nogroup 331632 Sep 19 2014 p112-doc.pdf -rw-r--r--+ 1 1003 nogroup 14305 Sep 9 2000 rawrite.exe -rw-r--r--+ 1 1003 nogroup 357891 Oct 22 2005 sc102205.img.gz -rw-r--r--+ 1 1003 nogroup 445535 Nov 11 2005 sc05.img.gz -rw-r--r--+ 1 1003 nogroup 436332 Nov 30 2005 sc113005.img.gz drwxr-xr-x+ 1 1003 nogroup 3660 Oct 9 2014 tcj-archive drwxr-xr-x+ 1 1003 nogroup 268 Oct 9 2014 web -rw-r--r--+ 1 1003 nogroup 660331 Oct 17 2005 zs101805.img.gz -rw-r--r--+ 1 1003 nogroup 513625 Oct 21 2005 zs102205.img.gz -rw-r--r--+ 1 1003 nogroup 612086 Nov 11 2005 zs05.img.gz -rw-r--r--+ 1 1003 nogroup 552969 Nov 30 2005 zs113005.img.gz drwxr-xr-x+ 1 1003 nogroup 260 Oct 9 2014 zsdos -rw-r--r--+ 1 1003 nogroup 554479 Apr 22 2009 zsdos.pdf
Re: P112
The current P112 is a reissue from years ago, right? I remember I had one — and I may still have it somewhere — but I only used it with 3.5” drives. Somehow I think it was built that way by design (the board outline fit on a drive). I don’t know how available the code is, but I would look at the firmware on the board. To me it sounds like it has a bad drive definition. The 8272 is pretty easy to program for (I use it on my IMSAI). As an aside, I use a modified YD-380 (5.25” HD) drive to replace the 8” drives on my IMSAI so as a quick test you could use one of those. At least it can step to 80 tracks and has the same speed and bit rate. I have instructions on my site how to use it. Rich Get Outlook for iOS On Sat, Nov 30, 2019 at 8:42 PM -0500, "Bill Gunshannon via cctalk" wrote: On 11/30/19 8:28 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >>> A lot could depend on how the software is interpreting the FDC return >>> codes. >>> >>> In the case of PC BIOS (765), error code number 4) that would mean that > > On Sun, 1 Dec 2019, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >> I think you missed something. This is a P112 SBC not a PC. I watch >> the head step from track to track until it runs into the stop after >> passing the last real track. I have a dbit 8" adapter and it displays >> the track count and I watch it go from 0 to 79. I am assuming the >> problem is that wherever the disk parameters are being stored on the >> P112 they are wrong for 8" disks. > > That's exactly why I said that it depended on how the software > interprets error codes, and used PC as an eaxample for comparison, not > that it would necessarily be the same. > You are absolutely right that I don't know anything about P112 disk access. I was hoping there would be people here who did. I have had these SBC's for several years but have never even powered one up before. > > You are right that the disk parameters are obviously wrong for 8", if > only the wrong track count. I have seen THAT error before. > Are the OTHER parameters at least usable? I have no way of knowing. My first test was to try formatting a disk and then reading a (blank) directory. But, as I said, while it says the format was successful it can not read the disk. > > If it says "sector not found", then there is a possibility (LIKE the PC > example that I used), that that may mean that it sees sectors, but not > the right ones. But, there is still the possibility that it is using > that message for any and all disk errors. Again this is why I need to find someone with experience with the P112. I am beginning to suspect these were not as popular in reality as they seemed to be on mailing lists. > > > > BTW, I understand that NEC uses 77 tracks on their high density 5.25 and > 3.5 inch formats, and 360RPM for 3.5". (Same parameters for all three > sizes!) Well, I haven't tried 5.25" but 3.5" disks format/read/write just fine. bill
Re: P112
On Sun, 1 Dec 2019, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: Well, I haven't tried 5.25" but 3.5" disks format/read/write just fine. That is a significant succesful test of MOST of the hardware. (leaving drive, cabling, and software as the likely alternate culprits) Speculating (with no knowledge of P112 (or P118 :-)) about the wrong parameters (even though 77 V 80 SEEMS minor), if the parameters are stored separately for FORMAT V READ/WRITE, that could obviously do it. If it were to have totally wrong parameters, and tried to put more sectors on a track than would fit, would it wrap around (past index) and overwrite the first sector with one of the later ones? A couple of obvious other things to consider (that you probably have already considered) trying: 1) do you have some other machine with 8" capability to look at the disk that you formatted? 2) Do you get the same errors on a pre-formatted disk from something else? (not necessarily much good as a test, because any format with different sector size or sector numbering would probably also give that error) 3) Perhaps tell it that the 3.5" drive is an 8", and see what it does (300RPM V 360RPM shouldn't prevent that interchange in that direction, although "type 3" 3.5" drive (360RPM) would be ideal)
Re: P112
On 11/30/19 8:28 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >>> A lot could depend on how the software is interpreting the FDC return >>> codes. >>> >>> In the case of PC BIOS (765), error code number 4) that would mean that > > On Sun, 1 Dec 2019, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >> I think you missed something. This is a P112 SBC not a PC. I watch >> the head step from track to track until it runs into the stop after >> passing the last real track. I have a dbit 8" adapter and it displays >> the track count and I watch it go from 0 to 79. I am assuming the >> problem is that wherever the disk parameters are being stored on the >> P112 they are wrong for 8" disks. > > That's exactly why I said that it depended on how the software > interprets error codes, and used PC as an eaxample for comparison, not > that it would necessarily be the same. > You are absolutely right that I don't know anything about P112 disk access. I was hoping there would be people here who did. I have had these SBC's for several years but have never even powered one up before. > > You are right that the disk parameters are obviously wrong for 8", if > only the wrong track count. I have seen THAT error before. > Are the OTHER parameters at least usable? I have no way of knowing. My first test was to try formatting a disk and then reading a (blank) directory. But, as I said, while it says the format was successful it can not read the disk. > > If it says "sector not found", then there is a possibility (LIKE the PC > example that I used), that that may mean that it sees sectors, but not > the right ones. But, there is still the possibility that it is using > that message for any and all disk errors. Again this is why I need to find someone with experience with the P112. I am beginning to suspect these were not as popular in reality as they seemed to be on mailing lists. > > > > BTW, I understand that NEC uses 77 tracks on their high density 5.25 and > 3.5 inch formats, and 360RPM for 3.5". (Same parameters for all three > sizes!) Well, I haven't tried 5.25" but 3.5" disks format/read/write just fine. bill
Re: P112
A lot could depend on how the software is interpreting the FDC return codes. In the case of PC BIOS (765), error code number 4) that would mean that On Sun, 1 Dec 2019, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: I think you missed something. This is a P112 SBC not a PC. I watch the head step from track to track until it runs into the stop after passing the last real track. I have a dbit 8" adapter and it displays the track count and I watch it go from 0 to 79. I am assuming the problem is that wherever the disk parameters are being stored on the P112 they are wrong for 8" disks. That's exactly why I said that it depended on how the software interprets error codes, and used PC as an eaxample for comparison, not that it would necessarily be the same. You are absolutely right that I don't know anything about P112 disk access. You are right that the disk parameters are obviously wrong for 8", if only the wrong track count. I have seen THAT error before. Are the OTHER parameters at least usable? If it says "sector not found", then there is a possibility (LIKE the PC example that I used), that that may mean that it sees sectors, but not the right ones. But, there is still the possibility that it is using that message for any and all disk errors. BTW, I understand that NEC uses 77 tracks on their high density 5.25 and 3.5 inch formats, and 360RPM for 3.5". (Same parameters for all three sizes!)
Re: P112
On 11/30/19 7:37 PM, dwight via cctalk wrote: > Don't 8 inch drives have 77 tracks? Give that man a cigar. Apparently the P112 doesn't know the format of 8" disks even though it has an option to set a drive as 8" in the config. bill
Re: P112
On 11/30/19 7:16 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Sat, 30 Nov 2019, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >> I'll start with the simple and funny one. If i run FORMAT >> it formats all 80 tracks. :-) Seems like the definition >> for an 8" disk as selected in the config menu is just plain >> wrong. Of course, once it formats all 80 :-) tracks any >> attempt to access it, like a DIR, just returns "sector not >> found". > > A lot could depend on how the software is interpreting the FDC return > codes. > > In the case of PC BIOS (765), error code number 4) that would mean that > it did format; it sees sectors, but not the one that you asked for. > That may be that the format command setup and the read are in > disagreement on sector numbers, and/or sector size. > > It could also happen if it ended up on the wrong track. (then the C > field of the CHRN of the sector doesn't match the C field of the CHRN > requested) > Even a non-functional stepper could do that. Be well aware thet > "VERIFY" checks whether there are READABLE sectors, not whether they > have correct content. If you want RELIABLE code, include a READ after > WRITE, rather than rely on the FDC "VERIFY". > A non-functional WRITE (including FORMAT) will VERIFY just fine, but > leave behind whatever had been on the track before, rather than what you > though that you had put there. > > PC FDC returns error code 2 for not seeing address mark. However, > MS-DOS goes through a short list of codes that it knows, and then falls > through to "error, but none of the above" and says "General Failure" (I > can't help but think that that was one of the brass in VietNam) I think you missed something. This is a P112 SBC not a PC. I watch the head step from track to track until it runs into the stop after passing the last real track. I have a dbit 8" adapter and it displays the track count and I watch it go from 0 to 79. I am assuming the problem is that wherever the disk parameters are being stored on the P112 they are wrong for 8" disks. bill
Re: P112
On Sun, 1 Dec 2019, dwight via cctalk wrote: Don't 8 inch drives have 77 tracks? YES. Although 8" "emulation" sometimes cheats and uses 80. And some users with drives without a physical stop tried to squeeze a few more tracks (and 41,42 on 360K) The inability to read those "extra" tracks on a different drive didn't show up until the disk was nearly full (inner tracks are normally last allocated) SA400 was 35 track (TRS80, and SA390 Apple) Q: how many tracks are the HP formats?
Re: P112
Don't 8 inch drives have 77 tracks? Dwight From: cctalk on behalf of Bill Gunshannon via cctalk Sent: Saturday, November 30, 2019 9:22 AM To: emanuel stiebler ; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: P112 On 11/30/19 9:15 AM, emanuel stiebler wrote: > On 2019-11-29 19:01, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >> >> Let's try again with the right name in the Subject line! >> >> It's not really classic (although it does try to pretend to be >> but does anyone here do anything with the P112 SBC? I am trying to >> get 8" disks running on it but I am seeing some rather strange behavior. > > You should probably describe the "strange behavior". There is a chance, > it isn't a P112 problem? > I was waiting to see if there were any P112 users first, I'll start with the simple and funny one. If i run FORMAT it formats all 80 tracks. :-) Seems like the definition for an 8" disk as selected in the config menu is just plain wrong. Of course, once it formats all 80 :-) tracks any attempt to access it, like a DIR, just returns "sector not found". bill
Re: P112
On Sat, 30 Nov 2019, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: I'll start with the simple and funny one. If i run FORMAT it formats all 80 tracks. :-) Seems like the definition for an 8" disk as selected in the config menu is just plain wrong. Of course, once it formats all 80 :-) tracks any attempt to access it, like a DIR, just returns "sector not found". A lot could depend on how the software is interpreting the FDC return codes. In the case of PC BIOS (765), error code number 4) that would mean that it did format; it sees sectors, but not the one that you asked for. That may be that the format command setup and the read are in disagreement on sector numbers, and/or sector size. It could also happen if it ended up on the wrong track. (then the C field of the CHRN of the sector doesn't match the C field of the CHRN requested) Even a non-functional stepper could do that. Be well aware thet "VERIFY" checks whether there are READABLE sectors, not whether they have correct content. If you want RELIABLE code, include a READ after WRITE, rather than rely on the FDC "VERIFY". A non-functional WRITE (including FORMAT) will VERIFY just fine, but leave behind whatever had been on the track before, rather than what you though that you had put there. PC FDC returns error code 2 for not seeing address mark. However, MS-DOS goes through a short list of codes that it knows, and then falls through to "error, but none of the above" and says "General Failure" (I can't help but think that that was one of the brass in VietNam)
Re: P112
On 11/30/19 9:15 AM, emanuel stiebler wrote: > On 2019-11-29 19:01, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >> >> Let's try again with the right name in the Subject line! >> >> It's not really classic (although it does try to pretend to be >> but does anyone here do anything with the P112 SBC? I am trying to >> get 8" disks running on it but I am seeing some rather strange behavior. > > You should probably describe the "strange behavior". There is a chance, > it isn't a P112 problem? > I was waiting to see if there were any P112 users first, I'll start with the simple and funny one. If i run FORMAT it formats all 80 tracks. :-) Seems like the definition for an 8" disk as selected in the config menu is just plain wrong. Of course, once it formats all 80 :-) tracks any attempt to access it, like a DIR, just returns "sector not found". bill
Re: P112
On 2019-11-29 19:01, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > > Let's try again with the right name in the Subject line! > > It's not really classic (although it does try to pretend to be > but does anyone here do anything with the P112 SBC? I am trying to > get 8" disks running on it but I am seeing some rather strange behavior. You should probably describe the "strange behavior". There is a chance, it isn't a P112 problem?
P112
Let's try again with the right name in the Subject line! It's not really classic (although it does try to pretend to be but does anyone here do anything with the P112 SBC? I am trying to get 8" disks running on it but I am seeing some rather strange behavior. bill
Re: P112 redesigned for Z280?
> On 12/12/18 6:58 AM, David Griffith via cctalk wrote: > > > That's got me thinking... Suppose I redesign the P112 board to take a > > Z280 CPU. Would you guys go for it? I'd like to come up with a way > > to use a socketed CPU or put a surface-mounted chip on a carrier board > > to allow greater versatility with playing with different Zilog chips. I would be interested. I have a few Z280 laying around (the ones that go into a socket).
Re: P112 redesigned for Z280? terminal
This? http://searle.hostei.com/grant/MonitorKeyboard/index.html It's much more efficient for a poster to provide URLs than for umpteen others to have to go off searching. You're welcome. On Wed, Dec 12, 2018 at 2:04 PM allison via cctalk wrote: > >> That is the easy part, where is the 99 cent dumb terminal to go with it? > >> Ben. > > > > Ben, > > look at Grant Searle's display system, not the Z80 CP/M but his three > chip display system. > Take two Atmel Atmega328Ps and a 74ls166 monitor and P2 keyboard required. > That yields a 24line x 80char display that is a subset of Vt100/Ansii. > Its not 99cents but > at list prices under 7$ Monitor and keyboard not included. > > Or you can use an arduino with a 40char by 4 line LCD. > > > Allison >
Re: P112 redesigned for Z280?
On 12/12/18 6:58 AM, David Griffith via cctalk wrote: My reply is at the bottom. Please put your reply there too. On Tue, 4 Dec 2018, ben via cctalk wrote: On 12/4/2018 1:17 PM, Tony Nicholson via cctalk wrote: Hello David I saw your posting on the cctalk mailing list regarding RSX180. It is Hector Peraza that's been tinkering with this. He intends making the full source-code available via SourceForge or GitHub but is still working on preliminary web pages and documenting etc. No doubt he will provide you with more details. I've been tinkering with a Z280 system designed by Bill Shen (the Z280RC on the RetroBrew web site at https://www.retrobrewcomputers.org/doku.php?id=builderpages:plasmo:z280rc ) and have contacted Hector about porting it to the Z280. That is the easy part, where is the 99 cent dumb terminal to go with it? Ben. That's got me thinking... Suppose I redesign the P112 board to take a Z280 CPU. Would you guys go for it? I'd like to come up with a way to use a socketed CPU or put a surface-mounted chip on a carrier board to allow greater versatility with playing with different Zilog chips. David, Count me in on this one... Definitely sounds interesting... -- Mike
Re: P112 redesigned for Z280? terminal
>> That is the easy part, where is the 99 cent dumb terminal to go with it? >> Ben. > Ben, look at Grant Searle's display system, not the Z80 CP/M but his three chip display system. Take two Atmel Atmega328Ps and a 74ls166 monitor and P2 keyboard required. That yields a 24line x 80char display that is a subset of Vt100/Ansii. Its not 99cents but at list prices under 7$ Monitor and keyboard not included. Or you can use an arduino with a 40char by 4 line LCD. Allison
Re: P112 redesigned for Z280?
On 12/12/2018 07:58 AM, David Griffith via cctalk wrote: > > My reply is at the bottom. > Please put your reply there too. > On Tue, 4 Dec 2018, ben via cctalk wrote: >> On 12/4/2018 1:17 PM, Tony Nicholson via cctalk wrote: >>> Hello David >>> >>> I saw your posting on the cctalk mailing list regarding RSX180. >>> >>> It is Hector Peraza that's been tinkering with this. He intends >>> making the >>> full source-code available via SourceForge or GitHub but is still >>> working >>> on preliminary web pages and documenting etc. No doubt he will >>> provide you >>> with more details. >>> >>> I've been tinkering with a Z280 system designed by Bill Shen (the >>> Z280RC on >>> the RetroBrew web site at >>> https://www.retrobrewcomputers.org/doku.php?id=builderpages:plasmo:z280rc >>> ) >>> and have contacted Hector about porting it to the Z280. >> >> That is the easy part, where is the 99 cent dumb terminal to go with it? >> Ben. > > That's got me thinking... Suppose I redesign the P112 board to take a > Z280 CPU. Would you guys go for it? I'd like to come up with a way > to use a socketed CPU or put a surface-mounted chip on a carrier board > to allow greater versatility with playing with different Zilog chips. > I'd be interested in a Z280 system. I have a few of the jlead (socketed format) chips of very late revision I've built around. The design work I used was started by Tim Olmstead. The RSX system would likely run very well as Z280 offers larger memory, I&D space, supervisor/use, and MMU so a real protected space OS is possible. Allison
P112 redesigned for Z280?
My reply is at the bottom. Please put your reply there too. On Tue, 4 Dec 2018, ben via cctalk wrote: On 12/4/2018 1:17 PM, Tony Nicholson via cctalk wrote: Hello David I saw your posting on the cctalk mailing list regarding RSX180. It is Hector Peraza that's been tinkering with this. He intends making the full source-code available via SourceForge or GitHub but is still working on preliminary web pages and documenting etc. No doubt he will provide you with more details. I've been tinkering with a Z280 system designed by Bill Shen (the Z280RC on the RetroBrew web site at https://www.retrobrewcomputers.org/doku.php?id=builderpages:plasmo:z280rc ) and have contacted Hector about porting it to the Z280. That is the easy part, where is the 99 cent dumb terminal to go with it? Ben. That's got me thinking... Suppose I redesign the P112 board to take a Z280 CPU. Would you guys go for it? I'd like to come up with a way to use a socketed CPU or put a surface-mounted chip on a carrier board to allow greater versatility with playing with different Zilog chips. -- David Griffith d...@661.org A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?
Re: Another p112 Query
On 12/06/2018 10:37 AM, David Griffith via cctalk wrote: > On December 6, 2018 6:42:44 AM PST, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk > wrote: >> While we are talking about the P122 :-) >> >> >> Has anyone tried and/or had luck using an 8" floppy drive >> >> on the P112? >> >> >> bill > I haven't tried it myself, but a few of my customers have reported success > doing so. The answer is Yes, if you really understand what your asking. I've not used the P112 but I have used the combo part in it for FDC interface and it does/can work with 8", 5.25", 3.5" drive so long as you get the wiring right as they all differ especially the 8". It does do CP/M 8" SSSD format which was the primary interest (RX01 was secondary and does that too). The second half of that is the driver for the device as it can do it but it does have to be programmed. The combo chip is basically a 765/8272 with 9229 for clock and FDC interface inside and is not unlike the 37C65/37C765 and remote relations. Basically it can do any fairly standard soft sector thing assuming its not one of the odd 1771/1773 formats or based on some unique controller (intel 2D M2FM and RX02). The chip used was from the PC world and most people that had issues with PCs and 8" disks were trying to work with existing PC FDC drivers limitations. Allison
Re: Another p112 Query
On December 6, 2018 6:42:44 AM PST, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > >While we are talking about the P122 :-) > > >Has anyone tried and/or had luck using an 8" floppy drive > >on the P112? > > >bill I haven't tried it myself, but a few of my customers have reported success doing so. -- David Griffith d...@661.org
Another p112 Query
While we are talking about the P122 :-) Has anyone tried and/or had luck using an 8" floppy drive on the P112? bill
Re: P112 runs RSX-11
On 12/05/2018 05:00 PM, Torfinn Ingolfsen via cctalk wrote: > There is a "contact" link on this page: > http://p112.sourceforge.net/index.php?rsx180 > Maybe it works. > On Tue, Dec 4, 2018 at 6:48 PM Al Kossow via cctalk > wrote: >> >> >> On 12/4/18 7:51 AM, Dennis Boone via cctalk wrote: >>> > That's all I could find, too. If anyone knows where the source might >>> > be or stumbles on it, I would definitely be interested as well. >>> >>> I think that's Hector Peraza's site. His email address is listed; you >>> could try writing to him. >>> >>> De >>> >> Subject: Re: Interested in a Z280 SBC >> Posted by >> hperaza >> on Thu, 12 Oct 2017 12:44:09 GMT >> View Forum Message >> <> >> Reply to Message >> lowen wrote on Wed, 11 October 2017 06:44While I personally would like to >> see a bit more >> coordination of efforts especially in the area of the C compiler, assembler, >> and emulator, I know of >> several efforts by several people already underway. I am very interested in >> the emulation side of >> things, and even going as far as a VHDL or verilog core that could be used >> in an FPGA. With the >> annoying bugs fixed, of course! >> Some of the bugs could even be emulated (if they are not of erratic nature, >> of course). That could >> be useful in case someone wants to test a program on the FPGA version that >> is intended to work >> on the real iron as well. The "compatibility" mode could be controlled by a >> bit in an additional CPU >> control register. >> Which brings up another question: is there any updated list somewhere of the >> known Z280 bugs? >> So far the information available is rather fragmented and incomplete. >> Quote:To all who are involved in doing a compiler, assembler, or emulator: I >> know you've probably >> posted before, but I would like to get a list together of all of these >> efforts and see what >> coordination might be possible. >> OK, here is my list: >> native Z280 (macro)-assembler, preferably M80 or SLR compatible (currently >> working on that) >> debugger (e.g. like DDTZ, but using the single-step capabilities of the >> chip) get UZI280 working >> (haven't even looked at it yet) and add more utilities, etc. same for Fuzix >> port of MP/M better hard >> disk support (e.g. via FDISK utility like the one for the P112, with >> automatic recognition of >> partitions in CP/M and UZI so one will not have to change the BIOS every >> time partitions change) >> better ROM setup? again taking the P112 as an example (i.e. adding disk >> timing parameters to >> the NV RAM, if possible add a simple embedded debugger?) a Verilog or VHDL >> Z280 core, >> perhaps taking T80 as the base. And if I really get the time, would like to >> make something like this, >> so it could be plugged directly into the CPU280 CPU socket. and like Lamar I >> also have my own, >> other niche project - a port of a multitasking, RSX-11M-like OS I wrote many >> years ago for the Z80 >> (now ported to the Z180). The PDP-11 always was my favorite machine, and the >> Z280 has many >> PDP-ish features, including a similar MMU, so for me is an interesting hobby >> project. >> >> > I'd love to see source and to my eyes its the first really new OS on z80 family hardware since the few from near the '80s. I don't happen to have a P112 but versions for other hardware has me interested. I have S100 (Compupro, North*star, AmproLB+, SB180, BCC180, kaypros, and more than a few others. Maybe I should crank a system using real late version Z280s . RSX (RT-11 and others) on PDP-11 is why I have a bunch of Qbus 11s as they are fairly small and friendly. Allison
Re: P112 runs RSX-11
There is a "contact" link on this page: http://p112.sourceforge.net/index.php?rsx180 Maybe it works. On Tue, Dec 4, 2018 at 6:48 PM Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > > > On 12/4/18 7:51 AM, Dennis Boone via cctalk wrote: > > > That's all I could find, too. If anyone knows where the source might > > > be or stumbles on it, I would definitely be interested as well. > > > > I think that's Hector Peraza's site. His email address is listed; you > > could try writing to him. > > > > De > > > > Subject: Re: Interested in a Z280 SBC > Posted by > hperaza > on Thu, 12 Oct 2017 12:44:09 GMT > View Forum Message > <> > Reply to Message > lowen wrote on Wed, 11 October 2017 06:44While I personally would like to see > a bit more > coordination of efforts especially in the area of the C compiler, assembler, > and emulator, I know of > several efforts by several people already underway. I am very interested in > the emulation side of > things, and even going as far as a VHDL or verilog core that could be used in > an FPGA. With the > annoying bugs fixed, of course! > Some of the bugs could even be emulated (if they are not of erratic nature, > of course). That could > be useful in case someone wants to test a program on the FPGA version that is > intended to work > on the real iron as well. The "compatibility" mode could be controlled by a > bit in an additional CPU > control register. > Which brings up another question: is there any updated list somewhere of the > known Z280 bugs? > So far the information available is rather fragmented and incomplete. > Quote:To all who are involved in doing a compiler, assembler, or emulator: I > know you've probably > posted before, but I would like to get a list together of all of these > efforts and see what > coordination might be possible. > OK, here is my list: > native Z280 (macro)-assembler, preferably M80 or SLR compatible (currently > working on that) > debugger (e.g. like DDTZ, but using the single-step capabilities of the chip) > get UZI280 working > (haven't even looked at it yet) and add more utilities, etc. same for Fuzix > port of MP/M better hard > disk support (e.g. via FDISK utility like the one for the P112, with > automatic recognition of > partitions in CP/M and UZI so one will not have to change the BIOS every time > partitions change) > better ROM setup? again taking the P112 as an example (i.e. adding disk > timing parameters to > the NV RAM, if possible add a simple embedded debugger?) a Verilog or VHDL > Z280 core, > perhaps taking T80 as the base. And if I really get the time, would like to > make something like this, > so it could be plugged directly into the CPU280 CPU socket. and like Lamar I > also have my own, > other niche project - a port of a multitasking, RSX-11M-like OS I wrote many > years ago for the Z80 > (now ported to the Z180). The PDP-11 always was my favorite machine, and the > Z280 has many > PDP-ish features, including a similar MMU, so for me is an interesting hobby > project. > > -- mvh Torfinn
Re: p112
On 12/4/2018 1:17 PM, Tony Nicholson via cctalk wrote: Hello David I saw your posting on the cctalk mailing list regarding RSX180. It is Hector Peraza that's been tinkering with this. He intends making the full source-code available via SourceForge or GitHub but is still working on preliminary web pages and documenting etc. No doubt he will provide you with more details. I've been tinkering with a Z280 system designed by Bill Shen (the Z280RC on the RetroBrew web site at https://www.retrobrewcomputers.org/doku.php?id=builderpages:plasmo:z280rc ) and have contacted Hector about porting it to the Z280. That is the easy part, where is the 99 cent dumb terminal to go with it? Ben.
Re: p112
Hello David I saw your posting on the cctalk mailing list regarding RSX180. It is Hector Peraza that's been tinkering with this. He intends making the full source-code available via SourceForge or GitHub but is still working on preliminary web pages and documenting etc. No doubt he will provide you with more details. I've been tinkering with a Z280 system designed by Bill Shen (the Z280RC on the RetroBrew web site at https://www.retrobrewcomputers.org/doku.php?id=builderpages:plasmo:z280rc ) and have contacted Hector about porting it to the Z280. A Z180 system is also on my hobbyist "to-do" list. Should you decide to produce another run I'd be interested in one. Most likely I'd use a CompactFlash on IDE interface and an GoTek style floppy emulator with it. -- Tony Nicholson
Re: P112 runs RSX-11
On 12/4/18 7:51 AM, Dennis Boone via cctalk wrote: > > That's all I could find, too. If anyone knows where the source might > > be or stumbles on it, I would definitely be interested as well. > > I think that's Hector Peraza's site. His email address is listed; you > could try writing to him. > > De > Subject: Re: Interested in a Z280 SBC Posted by hperaza on Thu, 12 Oct 2017 12:44:09 GMT View Forum Message <> Reply to Message lowen wrote on Wed, 11 October 2017 06:44While I personally would like to see a bit more coordination of efforts especially in the area of the C compiler, assembler, and emulator, I know of several efforts by several people already underway. I am very interested in the emulation side of things, and even going as far as a VHDL or verilog core that could be used in an FPGA. With the annoying bugs fixed, of course! Some of the bugs could even be emulated (if they are not of erratic nature, of course). That could be useful in case someone wants to test a program on the FPGA version that is intended to work on the real iron as well. The "compatibility" mode could be controlled by a bit in an additional CPU control register. Which brings up another question: is there any updated list somewhere of the known Z280 bugs? So far the information available is rather fragmented and incomplete. Quote:To all who are involved in doing a compiler, assembler, or emulator: I know you've probably posted before, but I would like to get a list together of all of these efforts and see what coordination might be possible. OK, here is my list: native Z280 (macro)-assembler, preferably M80 or SLR compatible (currently working on that) debugger (e.g. like DDTZ, but using the single-step capabilities of the chip) get UZI280 working (haven't even looked at it yet) and add more utilities, etc. same for Fuzix port of MP/M better hard disk support (e.g. via FDISK utility like the one for the P112, with automatic recognition of partitions in CP/M and UZI so one will not have to change the BIOS every time partitions change) better ROM setup? again taking the P112 as an example (i.e. adding disk timing parameters to the NV RAM, if possible add a simple embedded debugger?) a Verilog or VHDL Z280 core, perhaps taking T80 as the base. And if I really get the time, would like to make something like this, so it could be plugged directly into the CPU280 CPU socket. and like Lamar I also have my own, other niche project - a port of a multitasking, RSX-11M-like OS I wrote many years ago for the Z80 (now ported to the Z180). The PDP-11 always was my favorite machine, and the Z280 has many PDP-ish features, including a similar MMU, so for me is an interesting hobby project.
Re: P112 runs RSX-11
> That's all I could find, too. If anyone knows where the source might > be or stumbles on it, I would definitely be interested as well. I think that's Hector Peraza's site. His email address is listed; you could try writing to him. De
Re: P112 runs RSX-11
On 12/4/18 10:28 AM, Warner Losh wrote: On Tue, Dec 4, 2018 at 7:45 AM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org>> wrote: On 12/4/18 9:28 AM, allison via cctalk wrote: > On 12/04/2018 04:26 AM, David Griffith via cctalk wrote: >> I don't know who did it, but here's a video of a P112 running RSX: >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5s6IOCCk3Uw >> >> If the creator of this thing is reading, I'd very much like to get my >> hands on RSX-180 and put it up on the P112 page at Sourceforge, >> Gitlab, et al. >> >> > I did find this here: https://en.everybodywiki.com/RSX-180 > That's all I could find, too. If anyone knows where the source might be or stumbles on it, I would definitely be interested as well. I have two P112's. :-) http://p112.sourceforge.net/index.php?downloads has two links to download binaries at the bottom for RSX-180 What about the source? Binaries are fun, but the source would be a lot more fun. bill
Re: P112 runs RSX-11
On Tue, Dec 4, 2018 at 7:45 AM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > > On 12/4/18 9:28 AM, allison via cctalk wrote: > > On 12/04/2018 04:26 AM, David Griffith via cctalk wrote: > >> I don't know who did it, but here's a video of a P112 running RSX: > >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5s6IOCCk3Uw > >> > >> If the creator of this thing is reading, I'd very much like to get my > >> hands on RSX-180 and put it up on the P112 page at Sourceforge, > >> Gitlab, et al. > >> > >> > > I did find this here: https://en.everybodywiki.com/RSX-180 > > > That's all I could find, too. If anyone knows where the source might > > be or stumbles on it, I would definitely be interested as well. > > > I have two P112's. :-) > http://p112.sourceforge.net/index.php?downloads has two links to download binaries at the bottom for RSX-180 Warner
Re: P112 runs RSX-11
On 12/4/18 9:28 AM, allison via cctalk wrote: > On 12/04/2018 04:26 AM, David Griffith via cctalk wrote: >> I don't know who did it, but here's a video of a P112 running RSX: >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5s6IOCCk3Uw >> >> If the creator of this thing is reading, I'd very much like to get my >> hands on RSX-180 and put it up on the P112 page at Sourceforge, >> Gitlab, et al. >> >> > I did find this here: https://en.everybodywiki.com/RSX-180 > That's all I could find, too. If anyone knows where the source might be or stumbles on it, I would definitely be interested as well. I have two P112's. :-) bill
Re: P112 runs RSX-11
On 12/04/2018 04:26 AM, David Griffith via cctalk wrote: > > I don't know who did it, but here's a video of a P112 running RSX: > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5s6IOCCk3Uw > > If the creator of this thing is reading, I'd very much like to get my > hands on RSX-180 and put it up on the P112 page at Sourceforge, > Gitlab, et al. > > I did find this here: https://en.everybodywiki.com/RSX-180 Allison
Re: p112
David Griffith via cctalk wrote: > > On Mon, 3 Dec 2018, Joe Smith via cctech wrote: > > Are there any boards available or rom monitor updates? > > No more boards are available. This is primarily due to difficulty in > getting sufficient quantities of brand-new super-IO chips. The fabber I > used has problems with using pulls because the legs are off just enough to > make the pick-and-place robots throw fits. I'm pondering doing a new run > of bare boards and either doing the SMT myself or leaving that for buyers. > In any case, I probably won't be offering complete kits. > > Besides Joe, who else would be interested in acquiring one or more P112 > boards? > > > -- > David Griffith > d...@661.org > > A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. > Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? > A: Top-posting. > Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? I would take one or two David, depending on the price. I live in Germany. Kind Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Straße 42, 09600 Oberschöna, USt-Id: DE253710583 i...@tsht.de Fax +49 3731 74200 Tel +49 3731 74222 Mobil: 0172 8790 741
Re: p112
On Mon, 3 Dec 2018, Joe Smith via cctech wrote: Are there any boards available or rom monitor updates? No more boards are available. This is primarily due to difficulty in getting sufficient quantities of brand-new super-IO chips. The fabber I used has problems with using pulls because the legs are off just enough to make the pick-and-place robots throw fits. I'm pondering doing a new run of bare boards and either doing the SMT myself or leaving that for buyers. In any case, I probably won't be offering complete kits. Besides Joe, who else would be interested in acquiring one or more P112 boards? -- David Griffith d...@661.org A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?
P112 runs RSX-11
I don't know who did it, but here's a video of a P112 running RSX: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5s6IOCCk3Uw If the creator of this thing is reading, I'd very much like to get my hands on RSX-180 and put it up on the P112 page at Sourceforge, Gitlab, et al. -- David Griffith d...@661.org A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?
p112
Are there any boards available or rom monitor updates?
Re: P112
On Mon, 9 Apr 2018, Mark G Thomas via cctalk wrote: Hi Bill, On Sun, Apr 08, 2018 at 12:36:35AM +, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: It's not really Classic Hardware, but it does run some pretty classic OSes. Anybody here working with the P112? I have had a couple for ages but never had time to play with them. I see them now as a possible way to manipulate floppies (including 8") from classic systems so I decided to give it a try. Problem is, it won't boot anything. Not the disk that came with it and none of the images I got off the web. Anybody here know anything about them? I see you have made progress since this post, but I wanted to chime in. I have two, with GIDE cards, and booting from CF cards. One has the LAN interface card (see http://stack180.com/). I haven't been using the floppies, though have always meant to try to get it to do SSSD 8" format for compatibility with tons of CP/M floppies I have. I was always surprised not to hear more from other p112 users. There is a mailing list, but the last post I know of was five years ago when I asked if anyone else was on the list. http://lists.feedle.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p112 It seems that most P112 discussion happens here or on comp.os.cpm. -- David Griffith d...@661.org A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?
Re: P112
Hi Bill, On Sun, Apr 08, 2018 at 12:36:35AM +, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > > It's not really Classic Hardware, but it does run some pretty classic > OSes. Anybody here working with the P112? I have had a couple for > ages but never had time to play with them. I see them now as a > possible way to manipulate floppies (including 8") from classic systems > so I decided to give it a try. Problem is, it won't boot anything. Not the > disk that came with it and none of the images I got off the web. > Anybody here know anything about them? I see you have made progress since this post, but I wanted to chime in. I have two, with GIDE cards, and booting from CF cards. One has the LAN interface card (see http://stack180.com/). I haven't been using the floppies, though have always meant to try to get it to do SSSD 8" format for compatibility with tons of CP/M floppies I have. I was always surprised not to hear more from other p112 users. There is a mailing list, but the last post I know of was five years ago when I asked if anyone else was on the list. http://lists.feedle.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p112 Mark -- Mark G. Thomas (m...@misty.com), KC3DRE
Re: P112
On 2018-04-08 08:37, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > > None of the disks created with winrawwrite work. I am going to > assume at this point that USB floppies can not be used to build these > images. I have a dos box with a real floppy interface but moving stuff > to it is not easy. (time to fire up Kermit again!!) No idea if it helps, but if you're doing it really on Win***, you have to make sure, you have administrator rights, and switch off any virus-scanners, active-protection or whatever software which could run in the background. They usually block the access to the first "tracks" of a device, without any warning ... Have the same problem, when I try to write complete sd-cards for my FPGAs, and forget about that ;-) Cheers
Re: P112
On Sun, 8 Apr 2018, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: I have no idea of the format. I got the images and rawrite.exe and told the computer to make them. They were unusable when I used a USB External floppy but worked fine when I used a real internal floppy. I need to get the systems running before I start playing with reading and writing weird formats. But that is coming. As a side note, I did get the system to boot and run from my floppy emulator with a USB stick. Have to boot twice. First time you get the unrecognized format error second time boots fine. Interesting. Good to know for when I am testing on other systems as well. Small steps, but advancing, just the same. bill I seem to recall using a USB floppy drive to make P112 disks, but I also did it using a Linux machine with the dd command. The rawrite.exe program is very old and I suspect it and modern Windows systems don't see eye-to-eye anymore. The format is described in the cpmtools diskdefs file. Below are the entries that seem most relevant to the P112. diskdef p112 seclen 512 tracks 160 sectrk 18 blocksize 2048 maxdir 256 skew 1 boottrk 2 os 3 end diskdef p112-old seclen 512 tracks 160 sectrk 18 blocksize 2048 maxdir 128 skew 1 boottrk 1 os 3 end diskdef gide-cfa seclen 512 tracks 1000 sectrk 16 blocksize 4096 maxdir 1024 skew 0 boottrk 2 os 3 end diskdef gide-cfb seclen 512 tracks 1000 sectrk 16 blocksize 4096 maxdir 1024 skew 0 boottrk 0 # Start of second partition offset 1000trk os 3 end -- David Griffith d...@661.org A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?
Re: P112
On Sun, 8 Apr 2018, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: Should be fun. Is the FDC a 765 variant? or a WD 179x variant? On Sun, 8 Apr 2018, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: SMC 37C651. Supports 500 Kb/s, 300 Kb/s and 250 Kb/s Data Rates. Something else we lost with the PC. That's a 765 variant. Made by several companies, even WD! Most of those can handle FM/"single density". 5.25" single density is 125K bps It might support it,> Should have left it the way it was and have people set the Drive Select themselves. in spite of not mentioning it. All the P112 boards I distributed use a FDC37C665IR super-IO chip from SMC. I don't know which variant David Brooks used. I never acquired one made by him. In case anyone wants more P112s, it's that chip that's the big sticking point for why I don't have anymore. The board stuffer's robots had problems dealing with pulls. The legs had to be absolutely perfect, so I had to get new-old-stock chips. I've recently discovered how to do a good job of soldering QFPs by hand, so maybe I could work that angle. The weirdness of the how the floppy drive cabling works with the P112 had me baffled for the longest time. Terry and I thought it would be best though to just leave those quirks alone when it came time to update the firmware. -- David Griffith d...@661.org A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?
Re: P112
Should have left it the way it was and have people set the Drive Select themselves. Radio Shack used a different approach to drive select by cable instead of making use of the well documented drive select on the drive. Radio shack jumpered all drive selects on on the drive, and pulled pins in the cable. On Sun, 8 Apr 2018, allison via cctalk wrote: OR used a straight cable and people used the drive select. THAT's the approach if users are smart enough to read simple instructions and follow them. Unfortunately, SOME users, or store technicians, are not smart enough to handle it. AND, PC dominated the market so thoroughly that some drives are shipped hardwired to PC jumpering, so for anything other than B:, it may be necessary to cut and solder to switch back to normal jumpers. SMC 37C651. Supports 500 Kb/s, 300 Kb/s and 250 Kb/s Data Rates. Something else we lost with the PC. The 37C651 is 765 variant, so any PC should be able to create a compatible disk. Least for my CP/M systems its never been an issue. considering I'e used 8/5.25/3.5 drives on the same boxes it should not be a big deal. Some excellent tips: Some notes: The 37C651 and its kin all have minimal drive so long cables are out as they pick up noise. Keep the cable away from monitor (crt based) and any switching power supplies. Use a separate ground wire from the drive frame to the board ground. The IDE interface same deal, short cable only and one drive. CF works. When making a disk first ERASE IT using a degausser then format and copy to it. Also make sure the drives are the same TPI, your trying to make life easier. I've had the best luck with older PC 5.25 like Toshiba and Teac. For 3.5 Sony and Toshiba are the go to but if all else use the same drive to write it and read (that means moving it). One last detail make sure all the voltages (+5, +12,-12) are good and clean.
Re: P112
Should be fun. Is the FDC a 765 variant? or a WD 179x variant? On Sun, 8 Apr 2018, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: SMC 37C651. Supports 500 Kb/s, 300 Kb/s and 250 Kb/s Data Rates. Something else we lost with the PC. That's a 765 variant. Made by several companies, even WD! Most of those can handle FM/"single density". 5.25" single density is 125K bps It might support it,> Should have left it the way it was and have people set the Drive Select themselves. in spite of not mentioning it.
Re: P112
On 04/08/2018 04:11 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > > On 04/08/2018 02:11 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > Radio Shack used a different approach to drive select by cable instead > of making use of the well documented drive select on the drive. > Radio shack jumpered all drive selects on on the drive, and pulled > pins in the cable. > OR used a straight cable and people used the drive select. >>> I need to get the systems running before I start playing with reading >>> and writing weird formats. But that is coming. >> Should be fun. >> Is the FDC a 765 variant? >> or a WD 179x variant? > SMC 37C651. Supports 500 Kb/s, 300 Kb/s and 250 Kb/s Data Rates. > Something else we lost with the PC. The 37C651 is 765 variant, so any PC should be able to create a compatible disk. Least for my CP/M systems its never been an issue. considering I'e used 8/5.25/3.5 drives on the same boxes it should not be a big deal. Some notes: The 37C651 and its kin all have minimal drive so long cables are out as they pick up noise. Keep the cable away from monitor (crt based) and any switching power supplies. Use a separate ground wire from the drive frame to the board ground. The IDE interface same deal, short cable only and one drive. CF works. When making a disk first ERASE IT using a degausser then format and copy to it. Also make sure the drives are the same TPI, your trying to make life easier. I've had the best luck with older PC 5.25 like Toshiba and Teac. For 3.5 Sony and Toshiba are the go to but if all else use the same drive to write it and read (that means moving it). One last detail make sure all the voltages (+5, +12,-12) are good and clean. Allison
Re: P112
I have a operational P112 with 3.5" floppies, GIDE/CF and CD-ROM. Do you know which ROM you have installed?
Re: P112
On 04/08/2018 02:11 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: I do have to admit that I find it hard to believe that the cable to the floppy can actually make a difference. >>> A minor point, . . . >>> On 5150/5160/5170, the SECOND drive is a straight cable, FIRST drive >>> is crossed. Thus, drive A: is at the end of the cable, B: is in the >>> middle of the cable. > > On Sun, 8 Apr 2018, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >> Yeah, knew that from other systems. IBM really screwed that up. >> Should have left it the way it was and have people set the Drive Select >> themselves. > > Yep! > IBM didn't think that users could be trusted to get that right. > Or at least Computerland couldn't be trusted to get it right. > > Radio Shack used a different approach to drive select by cable instead > of making use of the well documented drive select on the drive. > Radio shack jumpered all drive selects on on the drive, and pulled > pins in the cable. Or, as in the case of some of the 1000 series (I had a TX my father an SL) punch holes in the cable to break the connection. > As opposed to IBM jumpering both drives as B: and twisting the cable > for A: (which also provided different control of motor) Which also limited you to two drives. > > >>> IF that is correct, then your first drie is straight through. That >>> also means that an unkeyed cable can be reversed, as one more to try. >> Reversed cable will result in the drive being active constantly. >> Easily noted by the LED being on constant and the drive running. > > I meant reversing BOTH ends, end for end, giving same wiring. > in case some lines of the cable are flaky. Too many different cable for that to be likely. > >>> I did not see any mention of the disk format. >>> If it is 512 bytes per sector MFM, with sequential sector numbering, >>> then even USB drives should work for making disks. >>> A different sector size, or even numbering sectors from 0, would be >>> problematic for some USB drives. >> >> I have no idea of the format. I got the images and rawrite.exe and >> told the computer to make them. They were unusable when I used >> a USB External floppy but worked fine when I used a real internal >> floppy. > > Since they mimiced the 5150 cabling, I was hoping that maybe they had > made the format similar, or at least the same physical format. > There are more efficient physical formats (using 1024 bytes per sector > easily gives you 400k/800K instead of 360K/720K) > > >> I need to get the systems running before I start playing with reading >> and writing weird formats. But that is coming. > > Should be fun. > Is the FDC a 765 variant? > or a WD 179x variant? SMC 37C651. Supports 500 Kb/s, 300 Kb/s and 250 Kb/s Data Rates. Something else we lost with the PC. > > >> As a side note, I did get the system to boot and run from my floppy >> emulator with a USB stick. Have to boot twice. First time you get >> the unrecognized format error second time boots fine. Interesting. >> Good to know for when I am testing on other systems as well. >> Small steps, but advancing, just the same. > > Good luck! Thanks. bill
Re: P112
> I see one about partitioning but not sure how one gets the FDISK > utility onto a bootable P112 floppy. The cpmtools has a diskdef for the p112 formats. One could therefore copy from images to actual floppies, assuming the needed hardware can be coaxed into connectivity with a supported os. (Windows and Linux, at least, are supported.) De
Re: P112
I do have to admit that I find it hard to believe that the cable to the floppy can actually make a difference. A minor point, . . . On 5150/5160/5170, the SECOND drive is a straight cable, FIRST drive is crossed. Thus, drive A: is at the end of the cable, B: is in the middle of the cable. On Sun, 8 Apr 2018, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: Yeah, knew that from other systems. IBM really screwed that up. Should have left it the way it was and have people set the Drive Select themselves. Yep! IBM didn't think that users could be trusted to get that right. Or at least Computerland couldn't be trusted to get it right. Radio Shack used a different approach to drive select by cable instead of making use of the well documented drive select on the drive. Radio shack jumpered all drive selects on on the drive, and pulled pins in the cable. As opposed to IBM jumpering both drives as B: and twisting the cable for A: (which also provided different control of motor) IF that is correct, then your first drie is straight through. That also means that an unkeyed cable can be reversed, as one more to try. Reversed cable will result in the drive being active constantly. Easily noted by the LED being on constant and the drive running. I meant reversing BOTH ends, end for end, giving same wiring. in case some lines of the cable are flaky. I did not see any mention of the disk format. If it is 512 bytes per sector MFM, with sequential sector numbering, then even USB drives should work for making disks. A different sector size, or even numbering sectors from 0, would be problematic for some USB drives. I have no idea of the format. I got the images and rawrite.exe and told the computer to make them. They were unusable when I used a USB External floppy but worked fine when I used a real internal floppy. Since they mimiced the 5150 cabling, I was hoping that maybe they had made the format similar, or at least the same physical format. There are more efficient physical formats (using 1024 bytes per sector easily gives you 400k/800K instead of 360K/720K) I need to get the systems running before I start playing with reading and writing weird formats. But that is coming. Should be fun. Is the FDC a 765 variant? or a WD 179x variant? As a side note, I did get the system to boot and run from my floppy emulator with a USB stick. Have to boot twice. First time you get the unrecognized format error second time boots fine. Interesting. Good to know for when I am testing on other systems as well. Small steps, but advancing, just the same. Good luck! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com
Re: P112
On 04/08/2018 01:34 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Sun, 8 Apr 2018, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >> I do have to admit that I find it hard to believe that the cable to the >> floppy can actually make a difference. > > A minor point, . . . > On 5150/5160/5170, the SECOND drive is a straight cable, FIRST drive > is crossed. Thus, drive A: is at the end of the cable, B: is in the > middle of the cable. Yeah, knew that from other systems. IBM really screwed that up. Should have left it the way it was and have people set the Drive Select themselves. > > The P112 manual > https://661.org/p112/files/p112-doc.pdf Page 10 > calls for the reverse, with FIRST drive before the twist, SECOND drive > after the twist. > IF that is correct, then your first drie is straight through. That > also means that an unkeyed cable can be reversed, as one more to try. Reversed cable will result in the drive being active constantly. Easily noted by the LED being on constant and the drive running. > > > Termination is rarely an issue with 3.5 inch drives, and not usually > the problem with 5.25". 5.25" has explicit provision for > termination, but wrong termination usually results in slightly less > reliability, not often a total failure to read. Just using 3.5" at the moment. > > > I did not see any mention of the disk format. > If it is 512 bytes per sector MFM, with sequential sector numbering, > then even USB drives should work for making disks. > A different sector size, or even numbering sectors from 0, would be > problematic for some USB drives. I have no idea of the format. I got the images and rawrite.exe and told the computer to make them. They were unusable when I used a USB External floppy but worked fine when I used a real internal floppy. I need to get the systems running before I start playing with reading and writing weird formats. But that is coming. As a side note, I did get the system to boot and run from my floppy emulator with a USB stick. Have to boot twice. First time you get the unrecognized format error second time boots fine. Interesting. Good to know for when I am testing on other systems as well. Small steps, but advancing, just the same. bill
Re: P112
On Sun, 8 Apr 2018, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: I do have to admit that I find it hard to believe that the cable to the floppy can actually make a difference. A minor point, . . . On 5150/5160/5170, the SECOND drive is a straight cable, FIRST drive is crossed. Thus, drive A: is at the end of the cable, B: is in the middle of the cable. The P112 manual https://661.org/p112/files/p112-doc.pdf Page 10 calls for the reverse, with FIRST drive before the twist, SECOND drive after the twist. IF that is correct, then your first drie is straight through. That also means that an unkeyed cable can be reversed, as one more to try. Termination is rarely an issue with 3.5 inch drives, and not usually the problem with 5.25". 5.25" has explicit provision for termination, but wrong termination usually results in slightly less reliability, not often a total failure to read. I did not see any mention of the disk format. If it is 512 bytes per sector MFM, with sequential sector numbering, then even USB drives should work for making disks. A different sector size, or even numbering sectors from 0, would be problematic for some USB drives.
Re: P112
On 04/08/2018 01:02 PM, Dennis Boone wrote: > > I am going to go back now and retest a bunch of the floppy drives and > > cables to see if there really is a problem or if it was just the > > images. Of course, this means my original floppy is bad so I need to > > find another copy as I think the stuff I need to use the GIDE was on > > there. I read somewhere that there is a copy on the CD. I wonder > > where that might be? :-) > > The random failure thing makes me wonder about some floppy timing > parameter being just-almost too short. > > Does either of these sites have any of what you need in terms of > software? > > http://p112.sourceforge.net/index.php?downloads > http://stack180.com/P112%20Downloads.htm Got both of them. Anybody have any step by step instructions for intalling OSes to an IDE on the GIDE? I see one about partitioning but not sure how one gets the FDISK utility onto a bootable P112 floppy. bill
Re: P112
> I am going to go back now and retest a bunch of the floppy drives and > cables to see if there really is a problem or if it was just the > images. Of course, this means my original floppy is bad so I need to > find another copy as I think the stuff I need to use the GIDE was on > there. I read somewhere that there is a copy on the CD. I wonder > where that might be? :-) The random failure thing makes me wonder about some floppy timing parameter being just-almost too short. Does either of these sites have any of what you need in terms of software? http://p112.sourceforge.net/index.php?downloads http://stack180.com/P112%20Downloads.htm De
Re: P112
Success!!! Up to a point. I have it booting on a floppy. I have confirmed that you can, apparently, not make disk images with an external USB Floppy drive. I am going to go back now and retest a bunch of the floppy drives and cables to see if there really is a problem or if it was just the images. Of course, this means my original floppy is bad so I need to find another copy as I think the stuff I need to use the GIDE was on there. I read somewhere that there is a copy on the CD. I wonder where that might be? :-) In case anyone is interested, I have a handful of floppy emulators that use USB sticks. Gonna give them a try, too. What they work with seems to be a real crapshoot. Oh yeah, once I have the hard disk working it will be time to try 8" disks, too. All t his could be real fun. bill
Re: P112
Some more data points. I have tried four different floppy cables and 6 different floppy drives (different brands, as well). I had one combination where it actually booted the P112/GIDE floppy. Got sector read errors. But wait, it gets better. I rebooted about a half dozen times. The errors move. Never the same sectors twice. What the system does depends on which sectors fail to read. None of the disks created with winrawwrite work. I am going to assume at this point that USB floppies can not be used to build these images. I have a dos box with a real floppy interface but moving stuff to it is not easy. (time to fire up Kermit again!!) In most cases I get "unrecognizable disk format" or "error reading boot track(s)" followed by "unrecognizable disk format". I do have to admit that I find it hard to believe that the cable to the floppy can actually make a difference. bill
Re: P112
On 04/08/2018 06:12 AM, Torfinn Ingolfsen via cctalk wrote: > I have a P112 (bought as a kit) which I have assembled and plyed with a bit. > Your description doesn't mention it, so we need more details: > - did you build the P112 yourself, or did it come pre-assembled? Bought it assembled and tested. > - has it been working before? Or is this your first time trying it? First time I have tried it. > - which version of the ROM does it have? ROM v5.7 dated 1 Oct. 2014 > - what are you trying to boot from, floppy or IDE? Floppy now, eventually it will be IDE. > > Hope this helps a little. It's a start. Too cold to go outside again so I guess I get to play with it more today. bill
Re: P112
I have a P112 (bought as a kit) which I have assembled and plyed with a bit. Your description doesn't mention it, so we need more details: - did you build the P112 yourself, or did it come pre-assembled? - has it been working before? Or is this your first time trying it? - which version of the ROM does it have? - what are you trying to boot from, floppy or IDE? Hope this helps a little. On Sun, Apr 8, 2018 at 2:36 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > > It's not really Classic Hardware, but it does run some pretty classic > > OSes. Anybody here working with the P112? I have had a couple for > > ages but never had time to play with them. I see them now as a > > possible way to manipulate floppies (including 8") from classic systems > > so I decided to give it a try. Problem is, it won't boot anything. Not the > > disk that came with it and none of the images I got off the web. > > > Anybody here know anything about them? > > > bill > > -- Regards, Torfinn Ingolfsen
P112
It's not really Classic Hardware, but it does run some pretty classic OSes. Anybody here working with the P112? I have had a couple for ages but never had time to play with them. I see them now as a possible way to manipulate floppies (including 8") from classic systems so I decided to give it a try. Problem is, it won't boot anything. Not the disk that came with it and none of the images I got off the web. Anybody here know anything about them? bill
Re: P112 supplies are exhausted
I'd prefer a full kit as well, but if you'd rather produce just the boards with the SMD stuff already in place, that's OK with me, too. I'm new to the list; how much would the full kit or board cost? On Wed, Jul 26, 2017 at 5:02 AM, Fredrik Axtelius via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > I want one... Full kit preferred. > > --frax > > On Wed, Jul 26, 2017 at 10:35 AM, David Griffith via cctalk < > cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > I've sold the last of my P112 boards. Is there still any interest in > P112 > > kits or boards? > > > > -- > > David Griffith > > d...@661.org > > > > A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. > > Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? > > A: Top-posting. > > Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? > > >
Re: P112 supplies are exhausted
I want one... Full kit preferred. --frax On Wed, Jul 26, 2017 at 10:35 AM, David Griffith via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > > I've sold the last of my P112 boards. Is there still any interest in P112 > kits or boards? > > -- > David Griffith > d...@661.org > > A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. > Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? > A: Top-posting. > Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? >
P112 supplies are exhausted
I've sold the last of my P112 boards. Is there still any interest in P112 kits or boards? -- David Griffith d...@661.org A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?
P112 CP/M computer kits still available
FYI, I still have lots of P112 CP/M computer kits for sale. Please buy one or several. See http://661.org/p112/ -- David Griffith d...@661.org A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?
Two more P112 kits left
I have two more P112 kits left. One is a board with parts. The other adds an old SCSI enclosure. Once these are gone, it'll be a long time before I offer complete kits again. The price is $190 for the kit alone and $210 for the kit with chassis (shipped in the US). The chassis is identical to the blue sparkly one seen at https://www.flickr.com/photos/32548582@N02/sets/72157649945208099 except it's beige. -- David Griffith d...@661.org A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?