Re: Thinking of a career change.. how does one get into Technical Recruiting..
If you are a ColdFusion Developer in the Greenville, SC area I have an opening and can help. ~| Want to reach the ColdFusion community with something they want? Let them know on the House of Fusion mailing lists Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-jobs-talk/message.cfm/messageid:4271 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-jobs-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11
Re: Thinking of a career change.. how does one get into Technical Recruiting..
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/03/19/economy-slumps-firms-line-hire-skilled-foreign-workers/ Aaron Rouse wrote: Or even themselves for the long run but in the shortrun it will make the stock holders happy. On Mon, Mar 16, 2009 at 12:43 PM, Jeffry Houser j...@farcryfly.com wrote: RobG wrote: I like Ravi's positive outlook, but I have to somewhat disagree and say that there are lots of companies that will, without hesitation, do what's best for them, regardless of how loyal you've been or how hard you've worked. If it is a publicly traded company, it is illegal (in the US) to do anything else. The only responsibility the company has is to its shareholders. It is not uncommon for companies to change or do things that are not in the best interests of their employees, partners, or customers. -- Jeffry Houser, Technical Entrepreneur Adobe Community Expert: http://tinyurl.com/684b5h http://www.twitter.com/reboog711 | Phone: 203-379-0773 -- Easy to use Interface Components for Flex Developers http://www.flextras.com?c=104 -- http://www.theflexshow.com http://www.jeffryhouser.com -- Part of the DotComIt Brain Trust ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;207172674;29440083;f Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-jobs-talk/message.cfm/messageid:4230 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-jobs-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11
Re: Thinking of a career change.. how does one get into Technical Recruiting..
I do not blame the companies one bit. I think they are getting around the H1B visa need here via just bringing them stateside briefly for training and then shipping them back to their home countries to do the job. Perhaps I am wrong on that though, I do not know much about how all the different visas work. On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 10:24 AM, Ravi Gehlot r...@ravigehlot.net wrote: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/03/19/economy-slumps-firms-line-hire-skilled-foreign-workers/ ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;207172674;29440083;f Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-jobs-talk/message.cfm/messageid:4231 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-jobs-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11
Re: Thinking of a career change.. how does one get into Technical Recruiting..
Hello Jeffry, I hear that a lotI believe that there is good and bad everywhere. In my opinion, if you are really good and you do your job honestly, no matter who you are (native or foreigner), that you will get paid fairly and you will not be treated as servants (not sure about other countries). Be it a foreigner or a native, it does not really matter anymore. It may have mattered in the past but not anymore. I do not believe that foreigners are taking away the jobs natives can do (I refer to computer related jobs). I believe that natives are choosing the best work force for their current needs. Do I think that it is somewhat harder for foreigners than it is for natives? Yes. I do think that it is but this is a country of opportunity. The kind of opportunity that you will never find elsewhere. So I would take any hardness that I find here for a chance to better myself. H1B Visas are HARDLY being issued (so I hear). Its almost unheard of these days. Either you come here on a student visa (I-20 co-op program) or you better have a Green Card. H1B Visas can cost a LOT of money to companies and it is ONLY worth in exceptional cases. I heard about a company that brought this Chinese dude that was phenomenal. He could do virtually anything you can imagine. He was one of a kind programmer...very smart...later got admitted at MIT and today if I am not mistaken he works for NASA. The company sponsored his Green Card and everything. Only those kind of people are getting H1B Visas these days (so I heard). It is very selective these days. My sister is a Canadian citizen and she was telling me about Canadian immigration laws the other day. She told me that in order for anyone to enter Canada that they need to be qualified. The Canadians have a score system. You need to have a certain score in order to enter Canada. So for example, if you have a bachelors degree you automatically get more points. If you have a valid work history then that also counts towards your score. This way only the qualified people get in. What I love about Canada is that once they filtered everyone, they make it easy for you to get the Canadian citizenship. Forget about this bullshit of Green Card. There are no talks about foreigners being servants in Canadians (so I hear). I just think that we should implement some type of score system or qualification measurement so to only let those who are qualified into the country. Indeed, make it easy for newcomers to get their Green Cards. woww...OK! I gotta work now...got carried away...anyways...cya Ravi. http://ravigehlot.wordpress.com/ Jeffry Houser wrote: Personally I'd rather have smart people being brought into this country than them being sent elsewhere. I believe having intelligent people here it is a good long-term strategy for making this country better; no matter where they were born. I understand that many of the criticisms of such programs, such as H1B Visa, is that companies are bringing in foreigners to jobs that native USA-residents are qualified to do; and the workers brought in are treated as indenture servants. I do not know enough about said programs to tell whether that is a valid concern of a bunch of FUD. ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;207172674;29440083;f Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-jobs-talk/message.cfm/messageid:4212 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-jobs-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11
Re: Thinking of a career change.. how does one get into Technical Recruiting..
Interesting outlook although over here at least the CIO's message to managers is move all development to the east(they are referring to India) because we are not an IT company. I had a meeting last week with a local manager and he told me they are seeing a 50% drop in efficiency by moving things to the east then he mentioned another 20% drop but I forget what that was for. He then went on to say how he then ends up paying for a competent PM locally to interface with one overseas whereas before he would have developers who wore the PM hat under his direction. Overall he said he is ending up with lesser quality work and paying more money but has been forced to go this direction. So basically the quality and integrity of the current workers means very little to the higher ups here. I'd like to think that I do a really good and honest job and for fair rates. I know I certainly have plenty of references to back that thought up. However more times than not I feel like I am treated more like a servant than anything else. Guess I should get back to working on the training document I am making to use to train the overseas based developers that are replacing me in upcoming months. Oh the joys of corporate IT. On Mon, Mar 16, 2009 at 9:11 AM, Ravi Gehlot r...@ravigehlot.net wrote: Hello Jeffry, I hear that a lotI believe that there is good and bad everywhere. In my opinion, if you are really good and you do your job honestly, no matter who you are (native or foreigner), that you will get paid fairly and you will not be treated as servants (not sure about other countries). Be it a foreigner or a native, it does not really matter anymore. It may have mattered in the past but not anymore. I do not believe that foreigners are taking away the jobs natives can do (I refer to computer related jobs). I believe that natives are choosing the best work force for their current needs. Do I think that it is somewhat harder for foreigners than it is for natives? Yes. I do think that it is but this is a country of opportunity. The kind of opportunity that you will never find elsewhere. So I would take any hardness that I find here for a chance to better myself. H1B Visas are HARDLY being issued (so I hear). Its almost unheard of these days. Either you come here on a student visa (I-20 co-op program) or you better have a Green Card. H1B Visas can cost a LOT of money to companies and it is ONLY worth in exceptional cases. I heard about a company that brought this Chinese dude that was phenomenal. He could do virtually anything you can imagine. He was one of a kind programmer...very smart...later got admitted at MIT and today if I am not mistaken he works for NASA. The company sponsored his Green Card and everything. Only those kind of people are getting H1B Visas these days (so I heard). It is very selective these days. My sister is a Canadian citizen and she was telling me about Canadian immigration laws the other day. She told me that in order for anyone to enter Canada that they need to be qualified. The Canadians have a score system. You need to have a certain score in order to enter Canada. So for example, if you have a bachelors degree you automatically get more points. If you have a valid work history then that also counts towards your score. This way only the qualified people get in. What I love about Canada is that once they filtered everyone, they make it easy for you to get the Canadian citizenship. Forget about this bullshit of Green Card. There are no talks about foreigners being servants in Canadians (so I hear). I just think that we should implement some type of score system or qualification measurement so to only let those who are qualified into the country. Indeed, make it easy for newcomers to get their Green Cards. woww...OK! I gotta work now...got carried away...anyways...cya Ravi. ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;207172674;29440083;f Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-jobs-talk/message.cfm/messageid:4213 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-jobs-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11
Re: Thinking of a career change.. how does one get into Technical Recruiting..
I like Ravi's positive outlook, but I have to somewhat disagree and say that there are lots of companies that will, without hesitation, do what's best for them, regardless of how loyal you've been or how hard you've worked. It's up to you to keep your eyes open, so if you see it happening, you can react accordingly. A few years ago, I had taken a remote job with a company out of San Diego. They were a computer hardware/software reseller similar to CDW (but it was NOT CDW). I was one of four developers, only one of which worked on-site. The company flew us all out and we had a great time for the week meeting each other, going over systems, making plans, etc, etc, etc, while listening to the CEO and his right-hand-man make promises for the future. A few months later, my job got cut because they decided to cut one of the four developer positions and outsource that position to CHINA. They could get TEN chinese developers for what they were paying me (which wasn't much to begin with). When I spoke to the CEO's right-hand-man about this, and the promises made while we were all in San Diego, he said, hey, it's business. Nice. I've kept in touch with some of the people there, and as we all figured, the outsourcing came back to bite them in the ass, and I've even seen them advertise for developers on cf-jobs. So I guess the bottom line is this... NEVER take anybody's word unless it's in writing, and even then, doubt it. Rob ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;207172674;29440083;f Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-jobs-talk/message.cfm/messageid:4216 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-jobs-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11
Re: Thinking of a career change.. how does one get into Technical Recruiting..
From what I gathered last week it is not just within their boarders. Like I mentioned someone here is already looking into outsourcing work to an outfit out of Brazil. About 7 years ago I worked on a project here that was with a Brazilian. Shared an office with him for about a year before he moved back and he has been working remotely from there ever since. On Mon, Mar 16, 2009 at 10:57 AM, Ravi Gehlot r...@ravigehlot.net wrote: Hello Aaron, Right. I read that on the Washington Post the other day. I heard that Brazil has had an increase in tech jobs and more people are employed there these days. However, their jobs are not so much outsourced jobs from other countries but jobs created within their boundaries. Not sure how that's working though. Brazil is investing big bucks on education. They are creating more private schools than they ever created before which is good. Hopefully in years to come there will be more qualified Brazilians and more research coming from there. I have lived and worked in Brazil, Portugal, Canada and US. I have never experienced a market as aggressive as the US market. You work a lot here and you stress a lot. They take the milk out of you here. There is nothing like a laid back job in the US but we get remunerated and we learn a lot. The more the demand, the more one works and researches. Indeed, you become a better employee you are always going something here. Ravi. ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;207172674;29440083;f Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-jobs-talk/message.cfm/messageid:4218 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-jobs-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11
Re: Thinking of a career change.. how does one get into Technical Recruiting..
Hello Rob, I agree with you. Companies will always do whats best for them no matter what. This is the nature of capitalism. One should never take anything for granted especially in this ever changing field of work. Ravi. RobG wrote: I like Ravi's positive outlook, but I have to somewhat disagree and say that there are lots of companies that will, without hesitation, do what's best for them, regardless of how loyal you've been or how hard you've worked. It's up to you to keep your eyes open, so if you see it happening, you can react accordingly. A few years ago, I had taken a remote job with a company out of San Diego. They were a computer hardware/software reseller similar to CDW (but it was NOT CDW). I was one of four developers, only one of which worked on-site. The company flew us all out and we had a great time for the week meeting each other, going over systems, making plans, etc, etc, etc, while listening to the CEO and his right-hand-man make promises for the future. A few months later, my job got cut because they decided to cut one of the four developer positions and outsource that position to CHINA. They could get TEN chinese developers for what they were paying me (which wasn't much to begin with). When I spoke to the CEO's right-hand-man about this, and the promises made while we were all in San Diego, he said, hey, it's business. Nice. I've kept in touch with some of the people there, and as we all figured, the outsourcing came back to bite them in the ass, and I've even seen them advertise for developers on cf-jobs. So I guess the bottom line is this... NEVER take anybody's word unless it's in writing, and even then, doubt it. Rob ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;207172674;29440083;f Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-jobs-talk/message.cfm/messageid:4219 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-jobs-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11
Re: Thinking of a career change.. how does one get into Technical Recruiting..
Hello Aaron, You are right. There are outsourced jobs in Brazil as there are their own created jobs. This is what I meant to say. I also know of a Brazilian guy that has been working for a company in the US while living in Brazil. But he tells me that his job is somewhat vulnerable. Usually companies prefer to have work force on-site. Ravi. Aaron Rouse wrote: From what I gathered last week it is not just within their boarders. Like I mentioned someone here is already looking into outsourcing work to an outfit out of Brazil. About 7 years ago I worked on a project here that was with a Brazilian. Shared an office with him for about a year before he moved back and he has been working remotely from there ever since. On Mon, Mar 16, 2009 at 10:57 AM, Ravi Gehlot r...@ravigehlot.net wrote: Hello Aaron, Right. I read that on the Washington Post the other day. I heard that Brazil has had an increase in tech jobs and more people are employed there these days. However, their jobs are not so much outsourced jobs from other countries but jobs created within their boundaries. Not sure how that's working though. Brazil is investing big bucks on education. They are creating more private schools than they ever created before which is good. Hopefully in years to come there will be more qualified Brazilians and more research coming from there. I have lived and worked in Brazil, Portugal, Canada and US. I have never experienced a market as aggressive as the US market. You work a lot here and you stress a lot. They take the milk out of you here. There is nothing like a laid back job in the US but we get remunerated and we learn a lot. The more the demand, the more one works and researches. Indeed, you become a better employee you are always going something here. Ravi. ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;207172674;29440083;f Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-jobs-talk/message.cfm/messageid:4220 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-jobs-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11
Re: Thinking of a career change.. how does one get into Technical Recruiting..
RobG wrote: I like Ravi's positive outlook, but I have to somewhat disagree and say that there are lots of companies that will, without hesitation, do what's best for them, regardless of how loyal you've been or how hard you've worked. If it is a publicly traded company, it is illegal (in the US) to do anything else. The only responsibility the company has is to its shareholders. It is not uncommon for companies to change or do things that are not in the best interests of their employees, partners, or customers. -- Jeffry Houser, Technical Entrepreneur Adobe Community Expert: http://tinyurl.com/684b5h http://www.twitter.com/reboog711 | Phone: 203-379-0773 -- Easy to use Interface Components for Flex Developers http://www.flextras.com?c=104 -- http://www.theflexshow.com http://www.jeffryhouser.com -- Part of the DotComIt Brain Trust ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;207172674;29440083;f Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-jobs-talk/message.cfm/messageid:4221 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-jobs-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11
Re: Thinking of a career change.. how does one get into Technical Recruiting..
Or even themselves for the long run but in the shortrun it will make the stock holders happy. On Mon, Mar 16, 2009 at 12:43 PM, Jeffry Houser j...@farcryfly.com wrote: RobG wrote: I like Ravi's positive outlook, but I have to somewhat disagree and say that there are lots of companies that will, without hesitation, do what's best for them, regardless of how loyal you've been or how hard you've worked. If it is a publicly traded company, it is illegal (in the US) to do anything else. The only responsibility the company has is to its shareholders. It is not uncommon for companies to change or do things that are not in the best interests of their employees, partners, or customers. -- Jeffry Houser, Technical Entrepreneur Adobe Community Expert: http://tinyurl.com/684b5h http://www.twitter.com/reboog711 | Phone: 203-379-0773 -- Easy to use Interface Components for Flex Developers http://www.flextras.com?c=104 -- http://www.theflexshow.com http://www.jeffryhouser.com -- Part of the DotComIt Brain Trust ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;207172674;29440083;f Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-jobs-talk/message.cfm/messageid:4222 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-jobs-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11
Re: Thinking of a career change.. how does one get into Technical Recruiting..
Just my $0.02 cents...I think that recruiters do help one get a job. Yes, most recruiters are all about business but who is not? They try to get you in and if they can not then they go on to the next one. This is just the nature of their business. They gotta make it work and in order to make it work they have to move fast and find the right candidate for the right position. That's fine. However, what I do not agree with is the fact that most of these recruiters are extremely friendly at first and then it all changes afterwards. I have heard this from most programmers. This is not just coming from me. Also, if they can not get you the job that they have been trying to then they also vanish without a trace (this does not apply to all recruiters). They don't even send you an e-mail to say go look for a new opportunity. I mean, it only takes 5 seconds right? I took 1 week of my time to talk to you and you do not have 5 seconds to say...Hey, it did not work but maybe next time? AlsoI had one recruiter call me every 2 weeks to have me rely information about the company hiring procedures. He wanted to know if anyone was being hired directly by the company instead of his recruiting company. SoI try not to be on either side..I am neutral. But man...you come to me to ask me questions but when I go to you to ask you questions you just ignore me? What kind of recruiter-to-programmer relationship is that? This is not an attack on recruiters. My experience with recruiting companies is OK. Will I work with recruiters in the future. YES. Everybody is entitled to making mistakes right? I am sure they also have a lot to tell about programmers too. This is just my $0.02 cents, Ravi. Jerry Johnson wrote: I was (mostly) kidding. But many programmers and tech types do not realize how _hard_ placement folk work to get someone into a job. It seems like free money when you see how much they added to your contracting rate, or how much you hear they get paid per permanent placement, but believe it or not it is a difficult job. You _need_ to divorce personal feelings for each client from the equation. It is easy to get paralyzed with I _need_ a job this week, or I lose my house (my children are sick, my mother-in-law lives with us, etc), but you cannot let it get to you. You need to be able to take 30 rejections in stride, and swing just as hard, with as much patience and professionalism as you did on the first. And you need to be able to In the glory days of the dot com era it was an easy job. (pick one resume at random from column a, match with one job opening from column b, profit!) But companies (for the most part) are much smarter in their hiring. and tech staff are much more skittish after bad experiences. So matchmaking is important if you want any follow on placements. The skillset that makes a good recruiter, in my opinion, are very specific. As Rob mentions below, they need to leave the tech staff feeling decent (even if turned down), need to leave the company feeling good (whether you place a person or not, you still want them to keep your card for next time. Because there will be a next time). You need for your recruiting company to feel you are contributing. And you need to feel pretty good about what you are doing (and how you are doing it) or the smudges on your soul get overwhelming and over time very obvious to others. I don't have the right skills, but I respect the skills in others and can recognize people that do have it all when I meet them. On Thu, Mar 12, 2009 at 5:03 PM, Rich Baker ri...@teaminfo.com wrote: Wow... Probably should have exercised better judgment than in sending that email to the whole group... - To each his own Richard E. Baker | TEAM Information Services ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;207172674;29440083;f Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-jobs-talk/message.cfm/messageid:4192 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-jobs-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11
RE: Thinking of a career change.. how does one get into Technical Recruiting..
Seems we all have similar experiences. Would love to hear what a recruiter has to say! Adrian -Original Message- From: Scott Stewart [mailto:sstwebwo...@bellsouth.net] Sent: 12 March 2009 19:36 To: cf-jobs-talk Subject: Thinking of a career change.. how does one get into Technical Recruiting.. Hey all, Since there's a large number of recruiters on this list, I've been wondering. How does one break into technical recruiting? I've got years of experience as a ColdFusion developer, but it appears that the CF market in NC has dried up. So I'm entertaining the idea of moving into recruiting, but have no idea where to start. Thanks in advance for any replies sas -- Scott Stewart ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;207172674;29440083;f Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-jobs-talk/message.cfm/messageid:4193 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-jobs-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11
RE: Thinking of a career change.. how does one get into Technical Recruiting..
Scott, This one kind of got away from the original topic a little : -) There are good Recruiters, and ones who should think about how to improve their customer service skills a bit, and yet others who would do the world a service and go back to selling used cars, or selling junk bonds to little old ladies in Iowa. There's no question about it. Fingers can be pointed all over the place... Recruiters for the lack of follow through, customer service skills, honesty, integrity, etc. Developers for their lack of response, embellishment of skills, dishonesty about being submitted to certain clients, or actually applying directly once a Recruiter revealed the company name, etc, etc... Unfortunately, there are a lot of obstacles and preconceived notions that exist on both sides of the fence. There are many people who don't see the value recruiters bring to the table; people who have never needed to rely on other people to help them find a job. Yet others who are very happy to work with Recruiters (managers and candidates). If you are sincerely interested in delving into this area, please shoot me an email or give me a call. I can give you some good questions to ask that'll help you make sure they are a decent firm to work for. I'll do what I can to help Rich - 407-548-6313 ri...@teaminfo.com -Original Message- From: Ravi Gehlot [mailto:r...@ravigehlot.net] Sent: Friday, March 13, 2009 11:02 AM To: cf-jobs-talk Subject: Re: Thinking of a career change.. how does one get into Technical Recruiting.. Just my $0.02 cents...I think that recruiters do help one get a job. Yes, most recruiters are all about business but who is not? They try to get you in and if they can not then they go on to the next one. This is just the nature of their business. They gotta make it work and in order to make it work they have to move fast and find the right candidate for the right position. That's fine. However, what I do not agree with is the fact that most of these recruiters are extremely friendly at first and then it all changes afterwards. I have heard this from most programmers. This is not just coming from me. Also, if they can not get you the job that they have been trying to then they also vanish without a trace (this does not apply to all recruiters). They don't even send you an e-mail to say go look for a new opportunity. I mean, it only takes 5 seconds right? I took 1 week of my time to talk to you and you do not have 5 seconds to say...Hey, it did not work but maybe next time? AlsoI had one recruiter call me every 2 weeks to have me rely information about the company hiring procedures. He wanted to know if anyone was being hired directly by the company instead of his recruiting company. SoI try not to be on either side..I am neutral. But man...you come to me to ask me questions but when I go to you to ask you questions you just ignore me? What kind of recruiter-to-programmer relationship is that? This is not an attack on recruiters. My experience with recruiting companies is OK. Will I work with recruiters in the future. YES. Everybody is entitled to making mistakes right? I am sure they also have a lot to tell about programmers too. This is just my $0.02 cents, Ravi. Jerry Johnson wrote: I was (mostly) kidding. But many programmers and tech types do not realize how _hard_ placement folk work to get someone into a job. It seems like free money when you see how much they added to your contracting rate, or how much you hear they get paid per permanent placement, but believe it or not it is a difficult job. You _need_ to divorce personal feelings for each client from the equation. It is easy to get paralyzed with I _need_ a job this week, or I lose my house (my children are sick, my mother-in-law lives with us, etc), but you cannot let it get to you. You need to be able to take 30 rejections in stride, and swing just as hard, with as much patience and professionalism as you did on the first. And you need to be able to In the glory days of the dot com era it was an easy job. (pick one resume at random from column a, match with one job opening from column b, profit!) But companies (for the most part) are much smarter in their hiring. and tech staff are much more skittish after bad experiences. So matchmaking is important if you want any follow on placements. The skillset that makes a good recruiter, in my opinion, are very specific. As Rob mentions below, they need to leave the tech staff feeling decent (even if turned down), need to leave the company feeling good (whether you place a person or not, you still want them to keep your card for next time. Because there will be a next time). You need for your recruiting company to feel you are contributing. And you need to feel pretty good about what you are doing (and how you are doing it) or the smudges on your soul get overwhelming and over time very obvious to others. I don't have
RE: Thinking of a career change.. how does one get into Technical Recruiting..
Some technical recruiters work with the concepts of a fisherman's net. They will catch anyone and everyone for a position, good fit or not. Whenever a recruiter contacts me I take control of the conversation, as I have gotten tired of driving all the way down to 'their' office to fill out their paperwork, just to find out that the job they called me about was not suited for me or my experience levels. Just one story of why it pays to take control of the conversation. I was called by a recruiter who was asking me about my skills for a position she had to fill. After about 15 minutes of talking she said she saw that I had expert skills in Java. I asked her where she saw this and she told me the name of a popular resume site. I immediately pulled up my resume there and looked at it to verify that I was not misrepresenting myself and saw that I made no mention of Java at all in my resume. I am sure many of you have dealt with this yourselves. I told her that I did not have expert skills in Java, and asked her if it was pertinent to the job position. She said it was in the list of required skills and she said that she saw it, then she read to me the line I wrote in that resume describing my Javascript skills. I told her that Javascript is a completely different language from Java. To her credit, she did ask me to explain to her the differences. I did. At least she, hopefully, won't make the same mistake in a future recruitment, but if she hadn't been very conversational, I would have wasted my time going to the interview. I guess I am saying this to you, if you choose to join the ranks of the recruiter, make sure you understand what you are looking for. And if, like so many HR departments do, the requirements look like 'programmer soup' as opposed to a specific requirement, ask the HR department to speak directly to the supervisor who needs the employee. The more knowledgeable of the position you are, the better you present yourself. Looking for a web programmer for a specific company who has to have 8 years of experience in: CF, ASP, .NET, C#, PERL, PHP, C++, JAVA, JavaScript, HTML, PHOTOSHOP, et al Is the same as saying you don't know what you are looking for, unless the actual job description describes why all of the same kinds of programming languages. -- William E. Seiter Need to have your mortgage modified? I charge no fees until I am successful, then I charge almost half the rate you would find elsewhere. Professional. Dedicated. Effective. The Easy 24/7 way to get started: http://www.goldengrove.net/ or you can call: (626) 593 - 5501 -Original Message- From: Ravi Gehlot [mailto:r...@ravigehlot.net] Sent: Friday, March 13, 2009 8:02 AM To: cf-jobs-talk Subject: Re: Thinking of a career change.. how does one get into Technical Recruiting.. Just my $0.02 cents...I think that recruiters do help one get a job. Yes, most recruiters are all about business but who is not? They try to get you in and if they can not then they go on to the next one. This is just the nature of their business. They gotta make it work and in order to make it work they have to move fast and find the right candidate for the right position. That's fine. However, what I do not agree with is the fact that most of these recruiters are extremely friendly at first and then it all changes afterwards. I have heard this from most programmers. This is not just coming from me. Also, if they can not get you the job that they have been trying to then they also vanish without a trace (this does not apply to all recruiters). They don't even send you an e-mail to say go look for a new opportunity. I mean, it only takes 5 seconds right? I took 1 week of my time to talk to you and you do not have 5 seconds to say...Hey, it did not work but maybe next time? AlsoI had one recruiter call me every 2 weeks to have me rely information about the company hiring procedures. He wanted to know if anyone was being hired directly by the company instead of his recruiting company. SoI try not to be on either side..I am neutral. But man...you come to me to ask me questions but when I go to you to ask you questions you just ignore me? What kind of recruiter-to-programmer relationship is that? This is not an attack on recruiters. My experience with recruiting companies is OK. Will I work with recruiters in the future. YES. Everybody is entitled to making mistakes right? I am sure they also have a lot to tell about programmers too. This is just my $0.02 cents, Ravi. Jerry Johnson wrote: I was (mostly) kidding. But many programmers and tech types do not realize how _hard_ placement folk work to get someone into a job. It seems like free money when you see how much they added to your contracting rate, or how much you hear they get paid per permanent placement, but believe it or not it is a difficult job. You _need_ to divorce personal feelings for each client from
RE: Thinking of a career change.. how does one get into Technical Recruiting..
I've worked with both, if I do go down this road I know who I don't want to be and that the guy who recruits by attrition. I've been the recipient of the fishing email and phone calls dozens of times, and it's never panned out. Someone with horribly broken English calls about a job half way across the country and my first response is are they considering telecommuters, the answer is usually no, or what?. My next question is is your client willing to contract a relocation company to move myself and my wife and buy our house. The answer again is usually no, and then they ask if I'm willing to rent an apartment wherever the job is, my answer is always no, because by this point, their asking me to take a financial loss to work for their client. On the other hand there are a handful of recruiters with whom I have had very very successful relationships with, and one in particular who has become a pretty good friend.. why, because they're honest stand up people who look at prospective employment candidates as something more than just an email address or a means to fulfill US State Department guidelines, to bring in H1B Visas candidates. -- Scott Stewart ColdFusion Developer 4405 Oakshyre Way Raleigh, NC 27616 (h) 919.874.6229 (c) 703.220.2835 -Original Message- From: William Seiter [mailto:will...@seiter.com] Sent: Friday, March 13, 2009 12:50 PM To: cf-jobs-talk Subject: RE: Thinking of a career change.. how does one get into Technical Recruiting.. Some technical recruiters work with the concepts of a fisherman's net. They will catch anyone and everyone for a position, good fit or not. Whenever a recruiter contacts me I take control of the conversation, as I have gotten tired of driving all the way down to 'their' office to fill out their paperwork, just to find out that the job they called me about was not suited for me or my experience levels. Just one story of why it pays to take control of the conversation. I was called by a recruiter who was asking me about my skills for a position she had to fill. After about 15 minutes of talking she said she saw that I had expert skills in Java. I asked her where she saw this and she told me the name of a popular resume site. I immediately pulled up my resume there and looked at it to verify that I was not misrepresenting myself and saw that I made no mention of Java at all in my resume. I am sure many of you have dealt with this yourselves. I told her that I did not have expert skills in Java, and asked her if it was pertinent to the job position. She said it was in the list of required skills and she said that she saw it, then she read to me the line I wrote in that resume describing my Javascript skills. I told her that Javascript is a completely different language from Java. To her credit, she did ask me to explain to her the differences. I did. At least she, hopefully, won't make the same mistake in a future recruitment, but if she hadn't been very conversational, I would have wasted my time going to the interview. I guess I am saying this to you, if you choose to join the ranks of the recruiter, make sure you understand what you are looking for. And if, like so many HR departments do, the requirements look like 'programmer soup' as opposed to a specific requirement, ask the HR department to speak directly to the supervisor who needs the employee. The more knowledgeable of the position you are, the better you present yourself. Looking for a web programmer for a specific company who has to have 8 years of experience in: CF, ASP, .NET, C#, PERL, PHP, C++, JAVA, JavaScript, HTML, PHOTOSHOP, et al Is the same as saying you don't know what you are looking for, unless the actual job description describes why all of the same kinds of programming languages. -- William E. Seiter Need to have your mortgage modified? I charge no fees until I am successful, then I charge almost half the rate you would find elsewhere. Professional. Dedicated. Effective. The Easy 24/7 way to get started: http://www.goldengrove.net/ or you can call: (626) 593 - 5501 -Original Message- From: Ravi Gehlot [mailto:r...@ravigehlot.net] Sent: Friday, March 13, 2009 8:02 AM To: cf-jobs-talk Subject: Re: Thinking of a career change.. how does one get into Technical Recruiting.. Just my $0.02 cents...I think that recruiters do help one get a job. Yes, most recruiters are all about business but who is not? They try to get you in and if they can not then they go on to the next one. This is just the nature of their business. They gotta make it work and in order to make it work they have to move fast and find the right candidate for the right position. That's fine. However, what I do not agree with is the fact that most of these recruiters are extremely friendly at first and then it all changes afterwards. I have heard this from most programmers. This is not just coming from me. Also, if they can not get you the job
Re: Thinking of a career change.. how does one get into Technical Recruiting..
Correct. There are good recruiters as there are bad ones. There are good and bad everywhere. So it is important to work with someone that you trust. Every programmer must do their own research. Ravi. Scott Stewart wrote: I've worked with both, if I do go down this road I know who I don't want to be and that the guy who recruits by attrition. I've been the recipient of the fishing email and phone calls dozens of times, and it's never panned out. Someone with horribly broken English calls about a job half way across the country and my first response is are they considering telecommuters, the answer is usually no, or what?. My next question is is your client willing to contract a relocation company to move myself and my wife and buy our house. The answer again is usually no, and then they ask if I'm willing to rent an apartment wherever the job is, my answer is always no, because by this point, their asking me to take a financial loss to work for their client. On the other hand there are a handful of recruiters with whom I have had very very successful relationships with, and one in particular who has become a pretty good friend.. why, because they're honest stand up people who look at prospective employment candidates as something more than just an email address or a means to fulfill US State Department guidelines, to bring in H1B Visas candidates. -- Scott Stewart ColdFusion Developer 4405 Oakshyre Way Raleigh, NC 27616 (h) 919.874.6229 (c) 703.220.2835 ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;207172674;29440083;f Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-jobs-talk/message.cfm/messageid:4202 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-jobs-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11
Re: Thinking of a career change.. how does one get into Technical Recruiting..
Qasim, There is no problem with H1B Visas. I have no clue why Scott mentioned it. Who cares... Ravi. Qasim Rasheed wrote: What's wrong with H1B visa if used appropriately. I came to this country based on that facility and have been able to become a permanent citizen. On Fri, Mar 13, 2009 at 3:07 PM, Ravi Gehlot r...@ravigehlot.net wrote: Correct. There are good recruiters as there are bad ones. There are good and bad everywhere. So it is important to work with someone that you trust. Every programmer must do their own research. Ravi. Scott Stewart wrote: I've worked with both, if I do go down this road I know who I don't want to be and that the guy who recruits by attrition. I've been the recipient of the fishing email and phone calls dozens of times, and it's never panned out. Someone with horribly broken English calls about a job half way across the country and my first response is are they considering telecommuters, the answer is usually no, or what?. My next question is is your client willing to contract a relocation company to move myself and my wife and buy our house. The answer again is usually no, and then they ask if I'm willing to rent an apartment wherever the job is, my answer is always no, because by this point, their asking me to take a financial loss to work for their client. On the other hand there are a handful of recruiters with whom I have had very very successful relationships with, and one in particular who has become a pretty good friend.. why, because they're honest stand up people who look at prospective employment candidates as something more than just an email address or a means to fulfill US State Department guidelines, to bring in H1B Visas candidates. -- Scott Stewart ColdFusion Developer 4405 Oakshyre Way Raleigh, NC 27616 (h) 919.874.6229 (c) 703.220.2835 ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;207172674;29440083;f Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-jobs-talk/message.cfm/messageid:4205 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-jobs-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11
RE: Thinking of a career change.. how does one get into Technical Recruiting..
There's nothing wrong with the program, if as you said it's used appropriately. But it is a program that needs to be tightened up by the new administration so that there is less chance for abuse. Unfortunately it's a program that I've personally been burned by a couple of times. Qasim, I hope you understand that my comments don't reflect on you personally. -- Scott Stewart ColdFusion Developer 4405 Oakshyre Way Raleigh, NC 27616 (h) 919.874.6229 (c) 703.220.2835 -Original Message- From: Qasim Rasheed [mailto:qasim.li...@gmail.com] Sent: Friday, March 13, 2009 4:32 PM To: cf-jobs-talk Subject: Re: Thinking of a career change.. how does one get into Technical Recruiting.. What's wrong with H1B visa if used appropriately. I came to this country based on that facility and have been able to become a permanent citizen. On Fri, Mar 13, 2009 at 3:07 PM, Ravi Gehlot r...@ravigehlot.net wrote: Correct. There are good recruiters as there are bad ones. There are good and bad everywhere. So it is important to work with someone that you trust. Every programmer must do their own research. Ravi. Scott Stewart wrote: I've worked with both, if I do go down this road I know who I don't want to be and that the guy who recruits by attrition. I've been the recipient of the fishing email and phone calls dozens of times, and it's never panned out. Someone with horribly broken English calls about a job half way across the country and my first response is are they considering telecommuters, the answer is usually no, or what?. My next question is is your client willing to contract a relocation company to move myself and my wife and buy our house. The answer again is usually no, and then they ask if I'm willing to rent an apartment wherever the job is, my answer is always no, because by this point, their asking me to take a financial loss to work for their client. On the other hand there are a handful of recruiters with whom I have had very very successful relationships with, and one in particular who has become a pretty good friend.. why, because they're honest stand up people who look at prospective employment candidates as something more than just an email address or a means to fulfill US State Department guidelines, to bring in H1B Visas candidates. -- Scott Stewart ColdFusion Developer 4405 Oakshyre Way Raleigh, NC 27616 (h) 919.874.6229 (c) 703.220.2835 ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;207172674;29440083;f Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-jobs-talk/message.cfm/messageid:4204 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-jobs-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11
RE: Thinking of a career change.. how does one get into Technical Recruiting..
Ravi, I mentioned it because the way that I understand the program to work is that you have to provide proof to the State Department that you attempted to hire a citizen for the position. All that's required is a stack of resumes, and someone to say that they weren't right for the job. I feel like many of the fishnet recruiters are collecting resumes for the sole purpose of providing that proof. IE: there is no intent to actually attempt to hire a citizen for the position. I could be wrong about how the program works, but this is how it was explained to me a few years ago. -- Scott Stewart ColdFusion Developer 4405 Oakshyre Way Raleigh, NC 27616 (h) 919.874.6229 (c) 703.220.2835 -Original Message- From: Ravi Gehlot [mailto:r...@ravigehlot.net] Sent: Friday, March 13, 2009 4:42 PM To: cf-jobs-talk Subject: Re: Thinking of a career change.. how does one get into Technical Recruiting.. Qasim, There is no problem with H1B Visas. I have no clue why Scott mentioned it. Who cares... Ravi. Qasim Rasheed wrote: What's wrong with H1B visa if used appropriately. I came to this country based on that facility and have been able to become a permanent citizen. On Fri, Mar 13, 2009 at 3:07 PM, Ravi Gehlot r...@ravigehlot.net wrote: Correct. There are good recruiters as there are bad ones. There are good and bad everywhere. So it is important to work with someone that you trust. Every programmer must do their own research. Ravi. Scott Stewart wrote: I've worked with both, if I do go down this road I know who I don't want to be and that the guy who recruits by attrition. I've been the recipient of the fishing email and phone calls dozens of times, and it's never panned out. Someone with horribly broken English calls about a job half way across the country and my first response is are they considering telecommuters, the answer is usually no, or what?. My next question is is your client willing to contract a relocation company to move myself and my wife and buy our house. The answer again is usually no, and then they ask if I'm willing to rent an apartment wherever the job is, my answer is always no, because by this point, their asking me to take a financial loss to work for their client. On the other hand there are a handful of recruiters with whom I have had very very successful relationships with, and one in particular who has become a pretty good friend.. why, because they're honest stand up people who look at prospective employment candidates as something more than just an email address or a means to fulfill US State Department guidelines, to bring in H1B Visas candidates. -- Scott Stewart ColdFusion Developer 4405 Oakshyre Way Raleigh, NC 27616 (h) 919.874.6229 (c) 703.220.2835 ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;207172674;29440083;f Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-jobs-talk/message.cfm/messageid:4206 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-jobs-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11
Re: Thinking of a career change.. how does one get into Technical Recruiting..
Scott, I have always been a Green Card holder so I am not familiar with other visas. I can't give you a formed opinion on this onesorry Ravi. Scott Stewart wrote: Ravi, I mentioned it because the way that I understand the program to work is that you have to provide proof to the State Department that you attempted to hire a citizen for the position. All that's required is a stack of resumes, and someone to say that they weren't right for the job. I feel like many of the fishnet recruiters are collecting resumes for the sole purpose of providing that proof. IE: there is no intent to actually attempt to hire a citizen for the position. I could be wrong about how the program works, but this is how it was explained to me a few years ago. -- Scott Stewart ColdFusion Developer 4405 Oakshyre Way Raleigh, NC 27616 (h) 919.874.6229 (c) 703.220.2835 -Original Message- From: Ravi Gehlot [mailto:r...@ravigehlot.net] Sent: Friday, March 13, 2009 4:42 PM To: cf-jobs-talk Subject: Re: Thinking of a career change.. how does one get into Technical Recruiting.. Qasim, There is no problem with H1B Visas. I have no clue why Scott mentioned it. Who cares... Ravi. Qasim Rasheed wrote: What's wrong with H1B visa if used appropriately. I came to this country based on that facility and have been able to become a permanent citizen. On Fri, Mar 13, 2009 at 3:07 PM, Ravi Gehlot r...@ravigehlot.net wrote: Correct. There are good recruiters as there are bad ones. There are good and bad everywhere. So it is important to work with someone that you trust. Every programmer must do their own research. Ravi. Scott Stewart wrote: I've worked with both, if I do go down this road I know who I don't want to be and that the guy who recruits by attrition. I've been the recipient of the fishing email and phone calls dozens of times, and it's never panned out. Someone with horribly broken English calls about a job half way across the country and my first response is are they considering telecommuters, the answer is usually no, or what?. My next question is is your client willing to contract a relocation company to move myself and my wife and buy our house. The answer again is usually no, and then they ask if I'm willing to rent an apartment wherever the job is, my answer is always no, because by this point, their asking me to take a financial loss to work for their client. On the other hand there are a handful of recruiters with whom I have had very very successful relationships with, and one in particular who has become a pretty good friend.. why, because they're honest stand up people who look at prospective employment candidates as something more than just an email address or a means to fulfill US State Department guidelines, to bring in H1B Visas candidates. -- Scott Stewart ColdFusion Developer 4405 Oakshyre Way Raleigh, NC 27616 (h) 919.874.6229 (c) 703.220.2835 ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;207172674;29440083;f Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-jobs-talk/message.cfm/messageid:4207 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-jobs-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11
Re: Thinking of a career change.. how does one get into Technical Recruiting..
Scott, I know your comments weren't directed towards anyone in particular and I have also seen the misuse of the program myself. However the thing that bothers me that people try to put all the blame on this program. I know, I came to this country legally, paid all my taxes for 7+ years and earned my green card. I hope we all appreciate the usefulness of real skills coming to this country (which I am now proud to call my second home). Thanks Qasim On Fri, Mar 13, 2009 at 4:44 PM, Scott Stewart sstwebwo...@bellsouth.netwrote: There's nothing wrong with the program, if as you said it's used appropriately. But it is a program that needs to be tightened up by the new administration so that there is less chance for abuse. Unfortunately it's a program that I've personally been burned by a couple of times. Qasim, I hope you understand that my comments don't reflect on you personally. -- Scott Stewart ColdFusion Developer 4405 Oakshyre Way Raleigh, NC 27616 (h) 919.874.6229 (c) 703.220.2835 -Original Message- From: Qasim Rasheed [mailto:qasim.li...@gmail.com] Sent: Friday, March 13, 2009 4:32 PM To: cf-jobs-talk Subject: Re: Thinking of a career change.. how does one get into Technical Recruiting.. What's wrong with H1B visa if used appropriately. I came to this country based on that facility and have been able to become a permanent citizen. On Fri, Mar 13, 2009 at 3:07 PM, Ravi Gehlot r...@ravigehlot.net wrote: Correct. There are good recruiters as there are bad ones. There are good and bad everywhere. So it is important to work with someone that you trust. Every programmer must do their own research. Ravi. Scott Stewart wrote: I've worked with both, if I do go down this road I know who I don't want to be and that the guy who recruits by attrition. I've been the recipient of the fishing email and phone calls dozens of times, and it's never panned out. Someone with horribly broken English calls about a job half way across the country and my first response is are they considering telecommuters, the answer is usually no, or what?. My next question is is your client willing to contract a relocation company to move myself and my wife and buy our house. The answer again is usually no, and then they ask if I'm willing to rent an apartment wherever the job is, my answer is always no, because by this point, their asking me to take a financial loss to work for their client. On the other hand there are a handful of recruiters with whom I have had very very successful relationships with, and one in particular who has become a pretty good friend.. why, because they're honest stand up people who look at prospective employment candidates as something more than just an email address or a means to fulfill US State Department guidelines, to bring in H1B Visas candidates. -- Scott Stewart ColdFusion Developer 4405 Oakshyre Way Raleigh, NC 27616 (h) 919.874.6229 (c) 703.220.2835 ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;207172674;29440083;f Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-jobs-talk/message.cfm/messageid:4209 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-jobs-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11
Re: Thinking of a career change.. how does one get into Technical Recruiting..
Personally I'd rather have smart people being brought into this country than them being sent elsewhere. I believe having intelligent people here it is a good long-term strategy for making this country better; no matter where they were born. I understand that many of the criticisms of such programs, such as H1B Visa, is that companies are bringing in foreigners to jobs that native USA-residents are qualified to do; and the workers brought in are treated as indenture servants. I do not know enough about said programs to tell whether that is a valid concern of a bunch of FUD. Qasim Rasheed wrote: Scott, I know your comments weren't directed towards anyone in particular and I have also seen the misuse of the program myself. However the thing that bothers me that people try to put all the blame on this program. I know, I came to this country legally, paid all my taxes for 7+ years and earned my green card. I hope we all appreciate the usefulness of real skills coming to this country (which I am now proud to call my second home). Thanks Qasim On Fri, Mar 13, 2009 at 4:44 PM, Scott Stewart sstwebwo...@bellsouth.netwrote: There's nothing wrong with the program, if as you said it's used appropriately. But it is a program that needs to be tightened up by the new administration so that there is less chance for abuse. Unfortunately it's a program that I've personally been burned by a couple of times. Qasim, I hope you understand that my comments don't reflect on you personally. -- Scott Stewart ColdFusion Developer 4405 Oakshyre Way Raleigh, NC 27616 (h) 919.874.6229 (c) 703.220.2835 -Original Message- From: Qasim Rasheed [mailto:qasim.li...@gmail.com] Sent: Friday, March 13, 2009 4:32 PM To: cf-jobs-talk Subject: Re: Thinking of a career change.. how does one get into Technical Recruiting.. What's wrong with H1B visa if used appropriately. I came to this country based on that facility and have been able to become a permanent citizen. On Fri, Mar 13, 2009 at 3:07 PM, Ravi Gehlot r...@ravigehlot.net wrote: Correct. There are good recruiters as there are bad ones. There are good and bad everywhere. So it is important to work with someone that you trust. Every programmer must do their own research. Ravi. Scott Stewart wrote: I've worked with both, if I do go down this road I know who I don't want to be and that the guy who recruits by attrition. I've been the recipient of the fishing email and phone calls dozens of times, and it's never panned out. Someone with horribly broken English calls about a job half way across the country and my first response is are they considering telecommuters, the answer is usually no, or what?. My next question is is your client willing to contract a relocation company to move myself and my wife and buy our house. The answer again is usually no, and then they ask if I'm willing to rent an apartment wherever the job is, my answer is always no, because by this point, their asking me to take a financial loss to work for their client. On the other hand there are a handful of recruiters with whom I have had very very successful relationships with, and one in particular who has become a pretty good friend.. why, because they're honest stand up people who look at prospective employment candidates as something more than just an email address or a means to fulfill US State Department guidelines, to bring in H1B Visas candidates. -- Scott Stewart ColdFusion Developer 4405 Oakshyre Way Raleigh, NC 27616 (h) 919.874.6229 (c) 703.220.2835 ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;207172674;29440083;f Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-jobs-talk/message.cfm/messageid:4211 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-jobs-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11
Re: Thinking of a career change.. how does one get into Technical Recruiting..
Sell your wife, mother, and youngest child. Then have a heart reduction surgery (placing is in a secure storage facility) Rob a whole troop of girlscouts out of their cookie money. Dig a 20 foot hole in a sand trap with a sand wedge. And tell a bar full of Yankee fans that the Red Sox are a better team. Now, add the above items to your resume, and you should be all set. More seriously, know that recruiting is a _hard_ job, and requires a true salesman's ability to pursue leads with dogged determination and boundless energy. And you will need very thick skin, a golden tongue, and the ability to sell your technical knowledge even when out on thin ice experience-wise. Many of my friends and colleagues that have switched from technical track to recruiting and placement did so while pursuing a job. They gradually moved from looking for a job to harassing their recruiters for jobs, to being asked can you do it better, to working for their recruiter. So my advice, from the cheap seats, would be to think about the recruiters YOU liked working with, and contacting them to see if they need help. And don't take the first 5 nos for an answer. On Thu, Mar 12, 2009 at 3:36 PM, Scott Stewart sstwebwo...@bellsouth.netwrote: Hey all, Since there's a large number of recruiters on this list, I've been wondering. How does one break into technical recruiting? I've got years of experience as a ColdFusion developer, but it appears that the CF market in NC has dried up. So I'm entertaining the idea of moving into recruiting, but have no idea where to start. Thanks in advance for any replies sas -- Scott Stewart ColdFusion Developer 4405 Oakshyre Way Raleigh, NC 27616 (h) 919.874.6229 (c) 703.220.2835 ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;207172674;29440083;f Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-jobs-talk/message.cfm/messageid:4183 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-jobs-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11
RE: Thinking of a career change.. how does one get into Technical Recruiting..
Steve, go talk to the managers you worked for in previous contracts. Find out what their needs are and tell them you have a great deal of recourses because you have been in IT for so long. Regarding the selling family members and getting a heart reduction surgery email, there is enough of those already. Go get them and don't forget us little people. Thanks David Wilf PMP -Original Message- From: Scott Stewart [mailto:sstwebwo...@bellsouth.net] Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2009 3:36 PM To: cf-jobs-talk Subject: Thinking of a career change.. how does one get into Technical Recruiting.. Hey all, Since there's a large number of recruiters on this list, I've been wondering. How does one break into technical recruiting? I've got years of experience as a ColdFusion developer, but it appears that the CF market in NC has dried up. So I'm entertaining the idea of moving into recruiting, but have no idea where to start. Thanks in advance for any replies sas -- Scott Stewart ColdFusion Developer 4405 Oakshyre Way Raleigh, NC 27616 (h) 919.874.6229 (c) 703.220.2835 ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;207172674;29440083;f Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-jobs-talk/message.cfm/messageid:4186 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-jobs-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11
Re: Thinking of a career change.. how does one get into Technical Recruiting..
Jerry Johnson wrote: Sell your wife, mother, and youngest child. Then have a heart reduction surgery (placing is in a secure storage facility) Rob a whole troop of girlscouts out of their cookie money. Dig a 20 foot hole in a sand trap with a sand wedge. And tell a bar full of Yankee fans that the Red Sox are a better team. Now, add the above items to your resume, and you should be all set. That's a good start. I have yet to find a recruiter or agency that didn't ultimately leave me feeling raped in the end. And that's regardless of whether or not I ultimately got a job through them. I know recruiters are busy and are trying to fill openings. But is it SO freaking hard to treat somebody who has just been DQ'd for whatever reason like a human being? Each and every time I have ever been passed over for a job, the recruiter has stopped answering my emails and/or phone calls. Completely. Not a peep from them ever again UNLESS another opening came up. It's like I'm not worth the five seconds of their time since I'm no longer somebody that could make them money at that instant. What's worse, is that they come off all friendly and helpful and everything at the start... but then, as time passes, they become less involved. Even where I am now... the guy handling my position has yet to EVER call me back to ask how things are going, or to take me to lunch as he repeatedly promised at the start. If I email him, I will get a reply usually within 24 hrs with a short response. If I have a followup question, it never gets answered. And I've been dealing with these lowlifes since the late 90's, so it's not like I've encountered a few bad apples. I firmly believe this to be the norm. I think I would sooner try to sell cars than become a recruiter. Rob ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;207172674;29440083;f Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-jobs-talk/message.cfm/messageid:4189 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-jobs-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11
Re: Thinking of a career change.. how does one get into Technical Recruiting..
I was (mostly) kidding. But many programmers and tech types do not realize how _hard_ placement folk work to get someone into a job. It seems like free money when you see how much they added to your contracting rate, or how much you hear they get paid per permanent placement, but believe it or not it is a difficult job. You _need_ to divorce personal feelings for each client from the equation. It is easy to get paralyzed with I _need_ a job this week, or I lose my house (my children are sick, my mother-in-law lives with us, etc), but you cannot let it get to you. You need to be able to take 30 rejections in stride, and swing just as hard, with as much patience and professionalism as you did on the first. And you need to be able to In the glory days of the dot com era it was an easy job. (pick one resume at random from column a, match with one job opening from column b, profit!) But companies (for the most part) are much smarter in their hiring. and tech staff are much more skittish after bad experiences. So matchmaking is important if you want any follow on placements. The skillset that makes a good recruiter, in my opinion, are very specific. As Rob mentions below, they need to leave the tech staff feeling decent (even if turned down), need to leave the company feeling good (whether you place a person or not, you still want them to keep your card for next time. Because there will be a next time). You need for your recruiting company to feel you are contributing. And you need to feel pretty good about what you are doing (and how you are doing it) or the smudges on your soul get overwhelming and over time very obvious to others. I don't have the right skills, but I respect the skills in others and can recognize people that do have it all when I meet them. On Thu, Mar 12, 2009 at 5:03 PM, Rich Baker ri...@teaminfo.com wrote: Wow... Probably should have exercised better judgment than in sending that email to the whole group... - To each his own Richard E. Baker | TEAM Information Services ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;207172674;29440083;f Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-jobs-talk/message.cfm/messageid:4190 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-jobs-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11
Re: Thinking of a career change.. how does one get into Technical Recruiting..
Jerry Johnson wrote: I was (mostly) kidding. But many programmers and tech types do not realize how _hard_ placement folk work to get someone into a job. As a business owner for 10 years, who has never been placed by a recruiter; I think I have a general gist of the amount of work that goes into getting clients and keeping them happy. I don't anticipate that work is much harder than recruiting. I haven't looked for a job in about 10 years and haven't spoken to a recruiter for purposes of job hunts in over 8. Yet, recruiters keep contacting me saying they heard I was looking for a job. They obviously haven't done any research into me and have no idea who I am. They will never tell me where / how they found me or what made them think I was looking for a new job. It's always a vague on the internet. Basically, they are screen scraping my e-mail address somehow and contacting me unsolicited under false pretenses. It makes them spammers in my book. In fairness, I have been contacted by at least one person who found me through my blog or other means and seem genuine in their search and do not make assumptions about my current situation. Those are few and far between, though. -- Jeffry Houser, Technical Entrepreneur Adobe Community Expert: http://tinyurl.com/684b5h http://www.twitter.com/reboog711 | Phone: 203-379-0773 -- Easy to use Interface Components for Flex Developers http://www.flextras.com?c=104 -- http://www.theflexshow.com http://www.jeffryhouser.com -- Part of the DotComIt Brain Trust ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;207172674;29440083;f Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-jobs-talk/message.cfm/messageid:4191 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-jobs-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11
