RE: ColdFusion for kids
I know this discussion evolved into a general discussion of technology/computers/programming education in schools, but you've got to remember what Kay wrote was the primary objective of her 13-year-old brother: He wants his site to be cooler than anyone else's at school You can make all the determinations you want about what is best for this 13-year-old, but if they don't fit into his idea of what going to make his site...cooler than anyone else's at school, then you've lost his interest before you begin. She should find out what he thinks will make his site cooler than anyone else's, then figure out a way to teach him how to make it so... by whatever means that involves. He's after achieving his immediate goal...not prepare for the future. Help him reach that immediate goal and he'll keep using whatever tools/methods got the results. People, especially kids, don't learn for learning's sake...they learn what's necessary to achieve their goals. Here's a suggestion: There are few people alive that don't like to look at pictures of themselves. Have him develop a photo gallery that he can use to add, update, and delete photos of himself and his friends. Instant cool based on the self-interest of everyone involved. Rick Rick Faircloth Prism Productions -Original Message- From: Jason Miller [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Sunday, December 08, 2002 4:10 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: ColdFusion for kids Although I had chimed in teasing that I have a young daughter that may be a prodigy- I have to agree with this. It is dead on. Although it's nice to build any skill set in potential prodigy, just as you would push piano or violin on a brilliant talented musician, extra coloring for a kid with a fantastic design sense - programming on the same, - it is human interaction and intercommunication skills that are a priority - and computers while in some cases loosely can be argued that they are promoted - for the most part desensitize human interaction. Ironically - how much interaction is gained by chatting wtih people on this list - but it's still not the same as teaching civic classes, promoting 1 on 1 interaction and such. sorry for bantering- but It's just one of those things I believe in - eliminating cell phones for 9 years olds, encouraging interaction vs children sitting in front of a TV much less hiding in code. just my 2 cents. And I had to really agree with what the likes of what Dave and Jim mentioed. Some food for thought - IN todays tech future world - when do you think Computer Science and possible language classes will be required multilingual much like being forced for learn a foregin language like French or Spanish etc. jay miller P.S. - I failed Turbo Pascal horribly in 9 th grade. :) Jim Davis wrote: -Original Message- From: Dave Watts [ mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ] Sent: Sunday, December 08, 2002 2:22 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: ColdFusion for kids I hate to be a wet blanket, but I'm not a big fan of teaching CF programming to kids, for several reasons. First, I'm not sure that we should be teaching programming to kids generally; on the list of things that everyone should learn, I think it's pretty low. There's a difference between learning basic computer skills (which, sadly, are necessary for almost everyone nowadays) and learning how to program. I think it's a sad commentary on the state of the computer industry that people have to spend so much time learning basic computer skills, actually - these things are supposed to be easy to use, but of course they aren't, really. I'd much rather see every student have a firmer grasp on the three Rs than have them all able to churn out web applications. I'd rather see civics classes again, actually. I just don't think programming is all that important, I guess. My personal wish is that children got more lessons in how to think than in what to think. In this case I think that programming may be a boon... Critical thinking is woefully misrepresented in American cirricula. Programming can encompass a good portion of those critical thinking skills that are so lacking today. Of course there are other ways, but in general I personally would rather less focus on rote learning and more focus on independent, critical thought and information gathering. Second, for those students who want to learn programming, I think it's more important to focus on core programming concepts than it is to teach the specifics of CFMX. I'd rather see them learn programming using a lower-level language than CFML, and a more general-purpose language, too. I think Java and Python would be better languages for learning how to program. I agree with this... In theory. I started a long time ago and we learned Turbo Pascal (turbo because you had strings!) in our advanced computing high school course (basic computing used, you guessed it! - BASIC). It was good
RE: ColdFusion for kids
-Original Message- From: Dave Watts [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Sunday, December 08, 2002 2:22 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: ColdFusion for kids I hate to be a wet blanket, but I'm not a big fan of teaching CF programming to kids, for several reasons. First, I'm not sure that we should be teaching programming to kids generally; on the list of things that everyone should learn, I think it's pretty low. There's a difference between learning basic computer skills (which, sadly, are necessary for almost everyone nowadays) and learning how to program. I think it's a sad commentary on the state of the computer industry that people have to spend so much time learning basic computer skills, actually - these things are supposed to be easy to use, but of course they aren't, really. I'd much rather see every student have a firmer grasp on the three Rs than have them all able to churn out web applications. I'd rather see civics classes again, actually. I just don't think programming is all that important, I guess. My personal wish is that children got more lessons in how to think than in what to think. In this case I think that programming may be a boon... Critical thinking is woefully misrepresented in American cirricula. Programming can encompass a good portion of those critical thinking skills that are so lacking today. Of course there are other ways, but in general I personally would rather less focus on rote learning and more focus on independent, critical thought and information gathering. Second, for those students who want to learn programming, I think it's more important to focus on core programming concepts than it is to teach the specifics of CFMX. I'd rather see them learn programming using a lower-level language than CFML, and a more general-purpose language, too. I think Java and Python would be better languages for learning how to program. I agree with this... In theory. I started a long time ago and we learned Turbo Pascal (turbo because you had strings!) in our advanced computing high school course (basic computing used, you guessed it! - BASIC). It was good, but the general concepts were available in anything. I still remember that I understood recursion first there. However it also didn't give me much to follow up on. I could program in T-Pascal on my TI-99/4A, but I really couldn't do much. Learning a web language may convince students to stick with it, if for no other reason than to keep up their own pages. I think with CF you have the potential to teach the concepts without the language getting in the way. Java may be a more useful stepping stone, but remember that most computer classes in grade school/high school are 45 minutes less than three time a week - an easy to pick up language that supports the concepts (CF, Python, perhaps even TCL or Pascal but I really don't think Java) would be, I think, better. CF also has the benefit of immediate fruit. You can get your page up very quickly and that sense of accomplishment is a large part of the learning process. There's also a sense of familiarity as we might assume that all kids in such a course are at least conversant with the web in general. Finally, for teaching purposes, you don't want to make things too easy - for example, if you wanted to teach someone about HTML, Notepad would be a better tool (I think) than Dreamweaver MX. I see this a lot, actually, now that I agree totally. Only use shortcuts after you know the long way 'round. That's all well and good - if he's going to start working today as a consultant. In the long run, again, I think he'd be better served by learning general programming theory rather than the specifics of languages that may well be obsolete by the time he's ready to work in the field. I would still argue that learning those theories may be easier in a language that gets in the way as little as possible. But I fully agree with you that whatever language is used, good programming has to come before cool tricks. But I think that the simplest language that can teach those concepts should be used. That might not be CF of course, but it could be. Jim Davis ~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?method=subscribeforumid=4 FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Signup for the Fusion Authority news alert and keep up with the latest news in ColdFusion and related topics. http://www.fusionauthority.com/signup.cfm
Re: ColdFusion for kids
On Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 11:22 PM, Dave Watts wrote: P.S. There is a member of this list who was/is a teenage prodigy with CF (and quite a few other web technologies) -- Dave, if you see this, you could provide some real-life experience for input! I'm not sure whether you're referring to me, since there are plenty of Daves, so forgive me if I'm presuming too much. If you are referring to me, I unfortunately will have to disappoint you, since I was never a teenage prodigy with CF or anything else, although I was considered pretty competent with small arms in my late teens. Nope, another Dave (younger -- still a teen, I think) I can comment on learning programming informally, though. I didn't come from a CS background, but learned programming the hard way, by trial-and-error, basically. Being self-taught sounds nice, but if you think about it, it's kind of silly - if you're self-taught, your teacher is by definition incompetent! You had the same teacher as me -- Actually, I took lots of formal programming classes, but there were no CS classes back then. I hate to be a wet blanket, but I'm not a big fan of teaching CF programming to kids, for several reasons. First, I'm not sure that we should be teaching programming to kids generally; on the list of things that everyone should learn, I think it's pretty low. I should have been more specific. I don't think everyone should learn programming, anymore than everyone should learn French. The computer labs in schools usually serve multiple purposes: For everyone: general exposures to computers what they can do As a tool for certain disciplines: secretarial, accounting, engineering, etc., using tools such as word, excel gpss. And programming for those who are interested -- not everyone is interested in art, music, etc,. but the schools provide instruction for those who are. There's a difference between learning basic computer skills (which, sadly, are necessary for almost everyone nowadays) and learning how to program. I think it's a sad commentary on the state of the computer industry that people have to spend so much time learning basic computer skills, actually - these things are supposed to be easy to use, but of course they aren't, really. I'd much rather see every student have a firmer grasp on the three Rs than have them all able to churn out web applications. I'd rather see civics classes again, actually. I just don't think programming is all that important, I guess. I don't think one excludes the other. The schools I was involved with were in Silicon Valley in the 1980's, before the web. But almost every family had at least one member employed in a computer-related industry. Within a 15 mile radius we had Stanford, HP, Commodore, IBM, Sun, Apple, Xerox Parc, Fairchild, Oracle, Sybase, Intel, Applied Materials, etc, There was a lot of interest in computers by the children of the employees of these companies. I suspect that there are other computer ghettos where this is true. For these environments, programming is, often, a popular subject. Second, for those students who want to learn programming, I think it's more important to focus on core programming concepts than it is to teach the specifics of CFMX. I'd rather see them learn programming using a lower-level language than CFML, and a more general-purpose language, too. I think Java and Python would be better languages for learning how to program. I agree, to a point. Likely they are still teaching BASIC :( Part of the technique of educating people is in the order in which you develop the students' skills. For example, If you were teaching web site development, you might start with HTML basics, a little CFML for programming and get them comfortable with the ideas of presentation and problem-solving. Then, maybe introduce Java to those who are interested, after they have learned the concepts and you have built their confidence. I may be wrong, but I think you would lose most of the students if you started with: OO concepts, class files, compiling, etc. I think the neat thing about CF is that you can focus on the problem, rather than the requirements of a language that is used for problem-solving. With CFML, like CoBOL (gasp) you can teach people to write simple programs (and see results) in a matter of minutes. Once they are comfortable, and interested, they are yours to teach what you will. As an aside, In the late '60s, early seventies I taught quite a few CoBOL classes to beginners and professional programmers, I continually experimented with different ways of teaching the class. By far the best results were obtained with this approach: In the first 5 minutes of the class we would write a simple program -- really simple, say calculate pi or netPay. They, the students, would write a working program in the first 5 minutes of the class. Of course they had to Keypunch,
Re: ColdFusion for kids
My personal wish is that children got more lessons in how to think than in what to think. In this case I think that programming may be a boon... Critical thinking is woefully misrepresented in American cirricula. Programming can encompass a good portion of those critical thinking skills that are so lacking today. Excellent point. I haven't taught for so long that I forgot about this benefit. In reality, you are teaching problem-solving, how to organize and think -- a programming language is just a tool to help you do this. I think with CF you have the potential to teach the concepts without the language getting in the way. Java may be a more useful stepping stone, but remember that most computer classes in grade school/high school are 45 minutes less than three time a week - an easy to pick up language that supports the concepts (CF, Python, perhaps even TCL or Pascal but I really don't think Java) would be, I think, better. CF also has the benefit of immediate fruit. You can get your page up very quickly and that sense of accomplishment is a large part of the learning process. There's also a sense of familiarity as we might assume that all kids in such a course are at least conversant with the web in general. Well said! Dick ~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?method=subscribeforumid=4 FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Get the mailserver that powers this list at http://www.coolfusion.com
Re: CF4K was Re: Macromedia listening? is RE: ColdFusion for kids
Dick Applebaum wrote: Are you saying that while the CFMX approach is good enough for you and I to use,it is not good enough for our kids? I am saying that the HTML approach is a necessary evil nowadays. But we are supposed to be educating these kids for the future, so we might just as well teach them something more durable. What do you propose instead? Don't teach them one particular toolset, teach them concepts. Jochem -- Never steer by the rearview mirror when driving forward. ~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?method=subscribeforumid=4 FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm
RE: ColdFusion for kids
although I was considered pretty competent with small arms in my late teens. I didn't come from a CS background, but learned programming the hard way, by trial-and-error Well Dave we've gpt two things in common. :-) -Stace -Original Message- From: Dave Watts [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Sunday, December 08, 2002 2:22 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: ColdFusion for kids P.S. There is a member of this list who was/is a teenage prodigy with CF (and quite a few other web technologies) -- Dave, if you see this, you could provide some real-life experience for input! I'm not sure whether you're referring to me, since there are plenty of Daves, so forgive me if I'm presuming too much. If you are referring to me, I unfortunately will have to disappoint you, since I was never a teenage prodigy with CF or anything else, although I was considered pretty competent with small arms in my late teens. I can comment on learning programming informally, though. I didn't come from a CS background, but learned programming the hard way, by trial-and-error, basically. Being self-taught sounds nice, but if you think about it, it's kind of silly - if you're self-taught, your teacher is by definition incompetent! And, that sums it up pretty well - by not learning programming in a formal setting, I made it a lot harder than it had to be. I think that this is true for a lot of people who got into programming during the web boom, actually - the lack of formal training is often very apparent. Kids will learn to program the Internet -- just because it's there! Why leave them to their own devices and some of the more obscure languages -- to helter-skelter mix format layout and content. Rather, teach them to do it right (better) with superior tools. Are you saying that while the CFMX approach is good enough for you and I to use, it is not good enough for our kids? What do you propose instead? I hate to be a wet blanket, but I'm not a big fan of teaching CF programming to kids, for several reasons. First, I'm not sure that we should be teaching programming to kids generally; on the list of things that everyone should learn, I think it's pretty low. There's a difference between learning basic computer skills (which, sadly, are necessary for almost everyone nowadays) and learning how to program. I think it's a sad commentary on the state of the computer industry that people have to spend so much time learning basic computer skills, actually - these things are supposed to be easy to use, but of course they aren't, really. I'd much rather see every student have a firmer grasp on the three Rs than have them all able to churn out web applications. I'd rather see civics classes again, actually. I just don't think programming is all that important, I guess. Second, for those students who want to learn programming, I think it's more important to focus on core programming concepts than it is to teach the specifics of CFMX. I'd rather see them learn programming using a lower-level language than CFML, and a more general-purpose language, too. I think Java and Python would be better languages for learning how to program. Finally, for teaching purposes, you don't want to make things too easy - for example, if you wanted to teach someone about HTML, Notepad would be a better tool (I think) than Dreamweaver MX. I see this a lot, actually, now that Dreamweaver is used in the Macromedia courses. The Fast Track To ColdFusion class is easier for students, because they don't have to know any HTML to get through it, but the students don't actually know how to generate a dynamic select box, say, because in Dreamweaver you do it by clicking on a button or two, rather than by typing in the necessary HTML and CFML. So, yes, CFMX is good enough for us to use, but not good enough for our kids. Personally, I'd be very distraught if my kids ended up being CF programmers. Shouldn't we want our kids to be better off than we are? (I don't have any kids, so this is purely hypothetical for me. If I did, I'd be pushing them toward law school instead of programming.) So, now you have a 13-year-old who understands HTML, CFML, SQL-- watch out! That's all well and good - if he's going to start working today as a consultant. In the long run, again, I think he'd be better served by learning general programming theory rather than the specifics of languages that may well be obsolete by the time he's ready to work in the field. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ voice: (202) 797-5496 fax: (202) 797-5444 ~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?method=subscribeforumid=4 FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Signup for the Fusion Authority news alert and keep up with the latest news in ColdFusion and related topics. http
Re: CF4K was Re: Macromedia listening? is RE: ColdFusion for kids
On Sunday, December 8, 2002, at 03:33 AM, Jochem van Dieten wrote: Dick Applebaum wrote: Are you saying that while the CFMX approach is good enough for you and I to use,it is not good enough for our kids? I am saying that the HTML approach is a necessary evil nowadays. But we are supposed to be educating these kids for the future, so we might just as well teach them something more durable. What do you propose instead? Don't teach them one particular toolset, teach them concepts. I agree with both points. But, teaching/learning is enhanced when the students participate. We need a toolset that allows the concepts to be demonstrated. Jim Davis said it best: I think with CF you have the potential to teach the concepts without the language getting in the way. Dick ~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?method=subscribeforumid=4 FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Signup for the Fusion Authority news alert and keep up with the latest news in ColdFusion and related topics. http://www.fusionauthority.com/signup.cfm
Re: ColdFusion for kids
Although I had chimed in teasing that I have a young daughter that may be a prodigy- I have to agree with this. It is dead on. Although it's nice to build any skill set in potential prodigy, just as you would push piano or violin on a brilliant talented musician, extra coloring for a kid with a fantastic design sense - programming on the same, - it is human interaction and intercommunication skills that are a priority - and computers while in some cases loosely can be argued that they are promoted - for the most part desensitize human interaction. Ironically - how much interaction is gained by chatting wtih people on this list - but it's still not the same as teaching civic classes, promoting 1 on 1 interaction and such. sorry for bantering- but It's just one of those things I believe in - eliminating cell phones for 9 years olds, encouraging interaction vs children sitting in front of a TV much less hiding in code. just my 2 cents. And I had to really agree with what the likes of what Dave and Jim mentioed. Some food for thought - IN todays tech future world - when do you think Computer Science and possible language classes will be required multilingual much like being forced for learn a foregin language like French or Spanish etc. jay miller P.S. - I failed Turbo Pascal horribly in 9 th grade. :) Jim Davis wrote: -Original Message- From: Dave Watts [ mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ] Sent: Sunday, December 08, 2002 2:22 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: ColdFusion for kids I hate to be a wet blanket, but I'm not a big fan of teaching CF programming to kids, for several reasons. First, I'm not sure that we should be teaching programming to kids generally; on the list of things that everyone should learn, I think it's pretty low. There's a difference between learning basic computer skills (which, sadly, are necessary for almost everyone nowadays) and learning how to program. I think it's a sad commentary on the state of the computer industry that people have to spend so much time learning basic computer skills, actually - these things are supposed to be easy to use, but of course they aren't, really. I'd much rather see every student have a firmer grasp on the three Rs than have them all able to churn out web applications. I'd rather see civics classes again, actually. I just don't think programming is all that important, I guess. My personal wish is that children got more lessons in how to think than in what to think. In this case I think that programming may be a boon... Critical thinking is woefully misrepresented in American cirricula. Programming can encompass a good portion of those critical thinking skills that are so lacking today. Of course there are other ways, but in general I personally would rather less focus on rote learning and more focus on independent, critical thought and information gathering. Second, for those students who want to learn programming, I think it's more important to focus on core programming concepts than it is to teach the specifics of CFMX. I'd rather see them learn programming using a lower-level language than CFML, and a more general-purpose language, too. I think Java and Python would be better languages for learning how to program. I agree with this... In theory. I started a long time ago and we learned Turbo Pascal (turbo because you had strings!) in our advanced computing high school course (basic computing used, you guessed it! - BASIC). It was good, but the general concepts were available in anything. I still remember that I understood recursion first there. However it also didn't give me much to follow up on. I could program in T-Pascal on my TI-99/4A, but I really couldn't do much. Learning a web language may convince students to stick with it, if for no other reason than to keep up their own pages. I think with CF you have the potential to teach the concepts without the language getting in the way. Java may be a more useful stepping stone, but remember that most computer classes in grade school/high school are 45 minutes less than three time a week - an easy to pick up language that supports the concepts (CF, Python, perhaps even TCL or Pascal but I really don't think Java) would be, I think, better. CF also has the benefit of immediate fruit. You can get your page up very quickly and that sense of accomplishment is a large part of the learning process. There's also a sense of familiarity as we might assume that all kids in such a course are at least conversant with the web in general. Finally, for teaching purposes, you don't want to make things too easy - for example, if you wanted to teach someone about HTML, Notepad would be a better tool (I think) than Dreamweaver MX. I see this a lot, actually, now that I agree totally. Only use shortcuts after you know the long way 'round
Re: ColdFusion for kids
Kay what a great idea! Don't know of any existing tutorials, though. Just some thoughts: Once he learns html well enough, CF shouldn't be too hard for him-- in fact, you may have trouble keeping up! The key, I think is being able to pique his interest. Do they have computer labs at the school he attends. As a challenge, you might have him try to duplicate some of the programs they use/write in the lab, on his web site-- likely, CF/HTML has more power and presentation capability then what they use in the lab (excluding word, excel, etc). If he has friends with email accounts, set up a mailbox for him on your site -- then have him develop a simple CF program to: 1) send mail 2) maintain an address book of his friends 3) receive mail This could evolve to his own little email client. At some early point, introduce him to a simple database, say for his email clients Ask him what he would like to have on his web site -- what interests his friends -- likely the data processing needs of a teenager are not too different than our own. Does he collect anything -- write a program to keep track of it! If he has access to a digital camera or scanner, then have him create a photo album/slideshow where CF and a simple db is used to store image metadata for search, display, etc. He could do the same thing for his audio. Not really CF, but he might like playing with SVG or Flash for some graphic animation effects. A really cool capability, for when his skills have improved, is for him to write a chat program that all his buddies can use (with secret passwords, etc).I think there several several offerings in the tag library that could be used as a starter. Then, have him write a tutorial to teach his friends, etc. Before long, you'll be asking him to answer questions about CF! I have a six-year-old grandaughter we are email pen pals -- the kids have no fear! Be sure and share the results with the rest of us! Dick On Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 07:11 AM, Kay Smoljak wrote: Hi all, My little brother, who's 13, is just starting to learn HTML. I'm storing his personal site on my CF5 account. He wants his site to be cooler than anyone else's at school, so I was thinking of making him a simple CF tutorial - maybe using cfinclude to get a header on each page, displaying and formatting the current date and time, stuff like that. Before I do this all myself, does anyone know of anything similar online already? Or, any suggestions for what I could include? Thanks, Kay. ~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?method=subscribeforumid=4 FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Get the mailserver that powers this list at http://www.coolfusion.com
Re: ColdFusion for kids
Some additional thoughts: Be sure to show him where/how to access CF online docs. In one of his first programs (actually a series of programs), have him create and manipulate a list of whatever interests him. It is important to use a list in application, not a textarea (where he can massage a single data entity) Point out to him that the list will disappear when his session ends. Then have him save the list to a file Next have him retrieve the file, display it in a select box Next have him add items to the end of the list Then add items to the middle of the list then delete an item then update an item in place After he is proficient with this, show him how to do this with a db rather than a flat file. So, now you have a 13-year-old who understands HTML, CFML, SQL-- watch out! Dick P.S. There is a member of this list who was/is a teenage prodigy with CF (and quite a few other web technologies) -- Dave, if you see this, you could provide some real-life experience for input! On Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 08:14 AM, Dick Applebaum wrote: Kay what a great idea! Don't know of any existing tutorials, though. Just some thoughts: Once he learns html well enough, CF shouldn't be too hard for him-- in fact, you may have trouble keeping up! The key, I think is being able to pique his interest. Do they have computer labs at the school he attends. As a challenge, you might have him try to duplicate some of the programs they use/write in the lab, on his web site-- likely, CF/HTML has more power and presentation capability then what they use in the lab (excluding word, excel, etc). If he has friends with email accounts, set up a mailbox for him on your site -- then have him develop a simple CF program to: 1) send mail 2) maintain an address book of his friends 3) receive mail This could evolve to his own little email client. At some early point, introduce him to a simple database, say for his email clients Ask him what he would like to have on his web site -- what interests his friends -- likely the data processing needs of a teenager are not too different than our own. Does he collect anything -- write a program to keep track of it! If he has access to a digital camera or scanner, then have him create a photo album/slideshow where CF and a simple db is used to store image metadata for search, display, etc. He could do the same thing for his audio. Not really CF, but he might like playing with SVG or Flash for some graphic animation effects. A really cool capability, for when his skills have improved, is for him to write a chat program that all his buddies can use (with secret passwords, etc).I think there several several offerings in the tag library that could be used as a starter. Then, have him write a tutorial to teach his friends, etc. Before long, you'll be asking him to answer questions about CF! I have a six-year-old grandaughter we are email pen pals -- the kids have no fear! Be sure and share the results with the rest of us! Dick On Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 07:11 AM, Kay Smoljak wrote: Hi all, My little brother, who's 13, is just starting to learn HTML. I'm storing his personal site on my CF5 account. He wants his site to be cooler than anyone else's at school, so I was thinking of making him a simple CF tutorial - maybe using cfinclude to get a header on each page, displaying and formatting the current date and time, stuff like that. Before I do this all myself, does anyone know of anything similar online already? Or, any suggestions for what I could include? Thanks, Kay. ~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?method=subscribeforumid=4 FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm
Macromedia listening? is RE: ColdFusion for kids
This is a truly great thought Kay (IMHO). And Dick you are right Word-Excel are diabolical for creating good plain html. I wonder if someone at Macromedia is listening, maybe there could a stripped down free DWMX lite distributed to schools to help kids learn basic html skills in the way they do best, by visual example first then slowly bring them into the code and of course CF. Mike Brunt - CTO Webapper Services LLC Blog - http://www.webapper.net Downey CA Office 562.243.6255 AIM webappermb Web Application Specialists -Original Message- From: Dick Applebaum [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Saturday, December 07, 2002 8:35 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: ColdFusion for kids Some additional thoughts: Be sure to show him where/how to access CF online docs. In one of his first programs (actually a series of programs), have him create and manipulate a list of whatever interests him. It is important to use a list in application, not a textarea (where he can massage a single data entity) Point out to him that the list will disappear when his session ends. Then have him save the list to a file Next have him retrieve the file, display it in a select box Next have him add items to the end of the list Then add items to the middle of the list then delete an item then update an item in place After he is proficient with this, show him how to do this with a db rather than a flat file. So, now you have a 13-year-old who understands HTML, CFML, SQL-- watch out! Dick P.S. There is a member of this list who was/is a teenage prodigy with CF (and quite a few other web technologies) -- Dave, if you see this, you could provide some real-life experience for input! On Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 08:14 AM, Dick Applebaum wrote: Kay what a great idea! Don't know of any existing tutorials, though. Just some thoughts: Once he learns html well enough, CF shouldn't be too hard for him-- in fact, you may have trouble keeping up! The key, I think is being able to pique his interest. Do they have computer labs at the school he attends. As a challenge, you might have him try to duplicate some of the programs they use/write in the lab, on his web site-- likely, CF/HTML has more power and presentation capability then what they use in the lab (excluding word, excel, etc). If he has friends with email accounts, set up a mailbox for him on your site -- then have him develop a simple CF program to: 1) send mail 2) maintain an address book of his friends 3) receive mail This could evolve to his own little email client. At some early point, introduce him to a simple database, say for his email clients Ask him what he would like to have on his web site -- what interests his friends -- likely the data processing needs of a teenager are not too different than our own. Does he collect anything -- write a program to keep track of it! If he has access to a digital camera or scanner, then have him create a photo album/slideshow where CF and a simple db is used to store image metadata for search, display, etc. He could do the same thing for his audio. Not really CF, but he might like playing with SVG or Flash for some graphic animation effects. A really cool capability, for when his skills have improved, is for him to write a chat program that all his buddies can use (with secret passwords, etc).I think there several several offerings in the tag library that could be used as a starter. Then, have him write a tutorial to teach his friends, etc. Before long, you'll be asking him to answer questions about CF! I have a six-year-old grandaughter we are email pen pals -- the kids have no fear! Be sure and share the results with the rest of us! Dick On Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 07:11 AM, Kay Smoljak wrote: Hi all, My little brother, who's 13, is just starting to learn HTML. I'm storing his personal site on my CF5 account. He wants his site to be cooler than anyone else's at school, so I was thinking of making him a simple CF tutorial - maybe using cfinclude to get a header on each page, displaying and formatting the current date and time, stuff like that. Before I do this all myself, does anyone know of anything similar online already? Or, any suggestions for what I could include? Thanks, Kay. ~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?method=subscribeforumid=4 FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Signup for the Fusion Authority news alert and keep up with the latest news in ColdFusion and related topics. http://www.fusionauthority.com/signup.cfm
FW: Macromedia listening? is RE: ColdFusion for kids
i just forwarded this on to the appropriate people. really good suggestion. mike chambers [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: Mike Brunt [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Saturday, December 07, 2002 1:10 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Macromedia listening? is RE: ColdFusion for kids This is a truly great thought Kay (IMHO). And Dick you are right Word-Excel are diabolical for creating good plain html. I wonder if someone at Macromedia is listening, maybe there could a stripped down free DWMX lite distributed to schools to help kids learn basic html skills in the way they do best, by visual example first then slowly bring them into the code and of course CF. Mike Brunt - CTO Webapper Services LLC Blog - http://www.webapper.net Downey CA Office 562.243.6255 AIM webappermb Web Application Specialists -Original Message- From: Dick Applebaum [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Saturday, December 07, 2002 8:35 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: ColdFusion for kids Some additional thoughts: Be sure to show him where/how to access CF online docs. In one of his first programs (actually a series of programs), have him create and manipulate a list of whatever interests him. It is important to use a list in application, not a textarea (where he can massage a single data entity) Point out to him that the list will disappear when his session ends. Then have him save the list to a file Next have him retrieve the file, display it in a select box Next have him add items to the end of the list Then add items to the middle of the list then delete an item then update an item in place After he is proficient with this, show him how to do this with a db rather than a flat file. So, now you have a 13-year-old who understands HTML, CFML, SQL-- watch out! Dick P.S. There is a member of this list who was/is a teenage prodigy with CF (and quite a few other web technologies) -- Dave, if you see this, you could provide some real-life experience for input! On Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 08:14 AM, Dick Applebaum wrote: Kay what a great idea! Don't know of any existing tutorials, though. Just some thoughts: Once he learns html well enough, CF shouldn't be too hard for him-- in fact, you may have trouble keeping up! The key, I think is being able to pique his interest. Do they have computer labs at the school he attends. As a challenge, you might have him try to duplicate some of the programs they use/write in the lab, on his web site-- likely, CF/HTML has more power and presentation capability then what they use in the lab (excluding word, excel, etc). If he has friends with email accounts, set up a mailbox for him on your site -- then have him develop a simple CF program to: 1) send mail 2) maintain an address book of his friends 3) receive mail This could evolve to his own little email client. At some early point, introduce him to a simple database, say for his email clients Ask him what he would like to have on his web site -- what interests his friends -- likely the data processing needs of a teenager are not too different than our own. Does he collect anything -- write a program to keep track of it! If he has access to a digital camera or scanner, then have him create a photo album/slideshow where CF and a simple db is used to store image metadata for search, display, etc. He could do the same thing for his audio. Not really CF, but he might like playing with SVG or Flash for some graphic animation effects. A really cool capability, for when his skills have improved, is for him to write a chat program that all his buddies can use (with secret passwords, etc).I think there several several offerings in the tag library that could be used as a starter. Then, have him write a tutorial to teach his friends, etc. Before long, you'll be asking him to answer questions about CF! I have a six-year-old grandaughter we are email pen pals -- the kids have no fear! Be sure and share the results with the rest of us! Dick On Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 07:11 AM, Kay Smoljak wrote: Hi all, My little brother, who's 13, is just starting to learn HTML. I'm storing his personal site on my CF5 account. He wants his site to be cooler than anyone else's at school, so I was thinking of making him a simple CF tutorial - maybe using cfinclude to get a header on each page, displaying and formatting the current date and time, stuff like that. Before I do this all myself, does anyone know of anything similar online already? Or, any suggestions for what I could include? Thanks, Kay. ~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=4 Subscription
CF4K was Re: Macromedia listening? is RE: ColdFusion for kids
Mike Isn't Kay's idea really great? I didn't mean using trying to compete with word for producing clear, concise html -- who could do that :) Rather, schools teach word and excel for their data presentation and problem-solving capabilities, respectively. More importantly, the use of these tools is likely standalone. CF4K, would broaden the problem-solving and presentation capabilities and add the ability to interact with others over the web or a LAN. All the schools are wired for the internet, right ? -- I saw Bill and Al on TV, laying the cables. And we continue to pay taxes (phone bills) for this. So the Internet should available to all schools (but access may be restricted). I think that many high schools have LANs for their computer labs. These likely are used mainly by the instructors to broadcast the lesson to all the displays and to monitor or assist individual students. Your idea about DWMX is an excellent one. I think we could go a step further. Make available a Modified Trial version of CFMX especially for classrooms. One that they could install on a server (or the main computer on the LAN, that acts as such). Then schools could teach problem solving, development collaboration, web/network application development, etc -- without needing access to the Internet The components would be something like: HTML as the basic presentation layer Flash, etc, for the rich/extended presentation layer CFML for the problem solving layer SQL for the data management layer The SQL piece is already available (open source, or from several vendors) For example, Sybase_ASE has an free, easy to install, full-featured database (very similar to SQL-Server) that allows 25 (I think) concurrent connections-- even that's not a problem as CFMX pools connections. Getting back to Kay's original request, what's missing is some tutorials oriented to kids -- there are companies that specialize in doing that for any topic -- but I suspect that many of the members of this list have the talents necessary to develop CF4K material. It must be a slow day -- is some holiday approaching? This is such a great idea, that I am surprised by the few responses. Maybe, everyone sees the potential and are busy presenting the case for this or that to those who can make it happen -- that's what I did! Dick On Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 10:10 AM, Mike Brunt wrote: This is a truly great thought Kay (IMHO). And Dick you are right Word-Excel are diabolical for creating good plain html. I wonder if someone at Macromedia is listening, maybe there could a stripped down free DWMX lite distributed to schools to help kids learn basic html skills in the way they do best, by visual example first then slowly bring them into the code and of course CF. ~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?method=subscribeforumid=4 FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Your ad could be here. Monies from ads go to support these lists and provide more resources for the community. http://www.fusionauthority.com/ads.cfm
RE: CF4K was Re: Macromedia listening? is RE: ColdFusion for kids
I think it's cool...schools here teach office starting in grade 7 or less... -Original Message- From: Dick Applebaum [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Saturday, December 07, 2002 5:05 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: CF4K was Re: Macromedia listening? is RE: ColdFusion for kids Mike Isn't Kay's idea really great? I didn't mean using trying to compete with word for producing clear, concise html -- who could do that :) Rather, schools teach word and excel for their data presentation and problem-solving capabilities, respectively. More importantly, the use of these tools is likely standalone. CF4K, would broaden the problem-solving and presentation capabilities and add the ability to interact with others over the web or a LAN. All the schools are wired for the internet, right ? -- I saw Bill and Al on TV, laying the cables. And we continue to pay taxes (phone bills) for this. So the Internet should available to all schools (but access may be restricted). I think that many high schools have LANs for their computer labs. These likely are used mainly by the instructors to broadcast the lesson to all the displays and to monitor or assist individual students. Your idea about DWMX is an excellent one. I think we could go a step further. Make available a Modified Trial version of CFMX especially for classrooms. One that they could install on a server (or the main computer on the LAN, that acts as such). Then schools could teach problem solving, development collaboration, web/network application development, etc -- without needing access to the Internet The components would be something like: HTML as the basic presentation layer Flash, etc, for the rich/extended presentation layer CFML for the problem solving layer SQL for the data management layer The SQL piece is already available (open source, or from several vendors) For example, Sybase_ASE has an free, easy to install, full-featured database (very similar to SQL-Server) that allows 25 (I think) concurrent connections-- even that's not a problem as CFMX pools connections. Getting back to Kay's original request, what's missing is some tutorials oriented to kids -- there are companies that specialize in doing that for any topic -- but I suspect that many of the members of this list have the talents necessary to develop CF4K material. It must be a slow day -- is some holiday approaching? This is such a great idea, that I am surprised by the few responses. Maybe, everyone sees the potential and are busy presenting the case for this or that to those who can make it happen -- that's what I did! Dick On Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 10:10 AM, Mike Brunt wrote: This is a truly great thought Kay (IMHO). And Dick you are right Word-Excel are diabolical for creating good plain html. I wonder if someone at Macromedia is listening, maybe there could a stripped down free DWMX lite distributed to schools to help kids learn basic html skills in the way they do best, by visual example first then slowly bring them into the code and of course CF. ~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?method=subscribeforumid=4 FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Your ad could be here. Monies from ads go to support these lists and provide more resources for the community. http://www.fusionauthority.com/ads.cfm
Re: CF4K was Re: Macromedia listening? is RE: ColdFusion for kids
Dick Applebaum wrote: This is such a great idea, that I am surprised by the few responses. cynical That is because most people with experience in that field expect the resistance to change that seems to be inherent in educational systems to overcome this idea just like all great ideas of the past. /cynical Apart from the fact that I don't think it is such a great idea at all. Learn kids to write in a concise and structured way, don't give them HTML to play with (just think of the poor teachers that have to grade something that was written with inordinate amounts of blink tags and text colors on a purple background). If you want to add layout, add some stylesheets and XSLT and let the rounding of the mark depend on it, but the mixing of content and layout is something you *don't* want to teach children. Maybe we will raise a generation that understands the difference between form and substance. Jochem ~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?method=subscribeforumid=4 FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Get the mailserver that powers this list at http://www.coolfusion.com
RE: CF4K was Re: Macromedia listening? is RE: ColdFusion for kids
CF4K... What about tying in Flash4K as well? Then there'd finally be a learning path I'd have the time and capacity to grasp :D --Matt Robertson-- MSB Designs, Inc. http://mysecretbase.com -Original Message- From: Stacy Young [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Saturday, December 07, 2002 2:36 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: CF4K was Re: Macromedia listening? is RE: ColdFusion for kids I think it's cool...schools here teach office starting in grade 7 or less... -Original Message- From: Dick Applebaum [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Saturday, December 07, 2002 5:05 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: CF4K was Re: Macromedia listening? is RE: ColdFusion for kids Mike Isn't Kay's idea really great? I didn't mean using trying to compete with word for producing clear, concise html -- who could do that :) Rather, schools teach word and excel for their data presentation and problem-solving capabilities, respectively. More importantly, the use of these tools is likely standalone. CF4K, would broaden the problem-solving and presentation capabilities and add the ability to interact with others over the web or a LAN. All the schools are wired for the internet, right ? -- I saw Bill and Al on TV, laying the cables. And we continue to pay taxes (phone bills) for this. So the Internet should available to all schools (but access may be restricted). I think that many high schools have LANs for their computer labs. These likely are used mainly by the instructors to broadcast the lesson to all the displays and to monitor or assist individual students. Your idea about DWMX is an excellent one. I think we could go a step further. Make available a Modified Trial version of CFMX especially for classrooms. One that they could install on a server (or the main computer on the LAN, that acts as such). Then schools could teach problem solving, development collaboration, web/network application development, etc -- without needing access to the Internet The components would be something like: HTML as the basic presentation layer Flash, etc, for the rich/extended presentation layer CFML for the problem solving layer SQL for the data management layer The SQL piece is already available (open source, or from several vendors) For example, Sybase_ASE has an free, easy to install, full-featured database (very similar to SQL-Server) that allows 25 (I think) concurrent connections-- even that's not a problem as CFMX pools connections. Getting back to Kay's original request, what's missing is some tutorials oriented to kids -- there are companies that specialize in doing that for any topic -- but I suspect that many of the members of this list have the talents necessary to develop CF4K material. It must be a slow day -- is some holiday approaching? This is such a great idea, that I am surprised by the few responses. Maybe, everyone sees the potential and are busy presenting the case for this or that to those who can make it happen -- that's what I did! Dick On Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 10:10 AM, Mike Brunt wrote: This is a truly great thought Kay (IMHO). And Dick you are right Word-Excel are diabolical for creating good plain html. I wonder if someone at Macromedia is listening, maybe there could a stripped down free DWMX lite distributed to schools to help kids learn basic html skills in the way they do best, by visual example first then slowly bring them into the code and of course CF. ~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?method=subscribeforumid=4 FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Your ad could be here. Monies from ads go to support these lists and provide more resources for the community. http://www.fusionauthority.com/ads.cfm
Re: CF4K was Re: Macromedia listening? is RE: ColdFusion for kids
Stacy Young wrote: I think it's cool...schools here teach office starting in grade 7 or less... Q: Can you spell? A: F7 Jochem ~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?method=subscribeforumid=4 FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm
Re: CF4K was Re: Macromedia listening? is RE: ColdFusion for kids
Stacy Young wrote: I think it's cool...schools here teach office starting in grade 7 or less... Q: Can you spell? A: F7 The keyboard shortcut for check-spelling? s. isaac dealey954-776-0046 new epoch http://www.turnkey.to lead architect, tapestry cms http://products.turnkey.to certified advanced coldfusion 5 developer http://www.macromedia.com/v1/handlers/index.cfm?ID=21816 ~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?method=subscribeforumid=4 FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Signup for the Fusion Authority news alert and keep up with the latest news in ColdFusion and related topics. http://www.fusionauthority.com/signup.cfm
RE: CF4K was Re: Macromedia listening? is RE: ColdFusion for kids
but of course it is, heck i think it was f7 way back in word perfect on my 386, and it followed to this new thing called microsoft word, now it still lives in office xp tony -Original Message- From: S. Isaac Dealey [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Saturday, December 07, 2002 6:33 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: CF4K was Re: Macromedia listening? is RE: ColdFusion for kids Stacy Young wrote: I think it's cool...schools here teach office starting in grade 7 or less... Q: Can you spell? A: F7 The keyboard shortcut for check-spelling? s. isaac dealey954-776-0046 new epoch http://www.turnkey.to lead architect, tapestry cms http://products.turnkey.to certified advanced coldfusion 5 developer http://www.macromedia.com/v1/handlers/index.cfm?ID=21816 ~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?method=subscribeforumid=4 FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq This list and all House of Fusion resources hosted by CFHosting.com. The place for dependable ColdFusion Hosting.
Re: CF4K was Re: Macromedia listening? is RE: ColdFusion for kids
Actually the best starting place for the youngsters is to use pre-built templates, available everywhere for free, to use Web builder apps provided by the host. They always have the option to view and tweak the HTML code that underlies the site. More advanced languages, such as CF, PHP, XML, JavaScript, Perl, various flavors of SQL, etc. are for the more advanced students, and usually the ones that have a proclivity for structured programming languages. Web sites that appear cool to the kids (for the wow factor among their peers) are completely different in concept from what a business-oriented adult developer will consider Cool. = Douglas White group Manager mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.samcfug.org = - Original Message - From: Jochem van Dieten [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: CF-Talk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, December 07, 2002 5:13 PM Subject: Re: CF4K was Re: Macromedia listening? is RE: ColdFusion for kids | Dick Applebaum wrote: | | This is such a great idea, that I am surprised by the few responses. | | cynical | That is because most people with experience in that field expect the | resistance to change that seems to be inherent in educational systems to | overcome this idea just like all great ideas of the past. | /cynical | | Apart from the fact that I don't think it is such a great idea at all. | Learn kids to write in a concise and structured way, don't give them | HTML to play with (just think of the poor teachers that have to grade | something that was written with inordinate amounts of blink tags and | text colors on a purple background). If you want to add layout, add some | stylesheets and XSLT and let the rounding of the mark depend on it, but | the mixing of content and layout is something you *don't* want to teach | children. | | Maybe we will raise a generation that understands the difference between | form and substance. | | Jochem | | ~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?method=subscribeforumid=4 FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Get the mailserver that powers this list at http://www.coolfusion.com
Re: CF4K was Re: Macromedia listening? is RE: ColdFusion for kids
On Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 03:13 PM, Jochem van Dieten wrote: Dick Applebaum wrote: This is such a great idea, that I am surprised by the few responses. cynical That is because most people with experience in that field expect the resistance to change that seems to be inherent in educational systems to overcome this idea just like all great ideas of the past. /cynical I, actually, do have some experience in that field (computer training in high school), although a bit dated. I was involved in a project that installed the first computer LAN in a high school. There was some initial resistance (as there is with all change). But, once people grasped the concept and the benefits, acceptance, well, just snowballed! The lab became a prototype and everyone involved benefitted -- particularly the students -- there were high school students opening their own computer consulting firms. Apart from the fact that I don't think it is such a great idea at all. Learn kids to write in a concise and structured way, don't give them HTML to play with (just think of the poor teachers that have to grade something that was written with inordinate amounts of blink tags and text colors on a purple background). If you want to add layout, add some stylesheets and XSLT and let the rounding of the mark depend on it, but the mixing of content and layout is something you *don't* want to teach children. I agree that writing skills are very important and should be learned in a structured way. But we are discussing additional skills to bring the content (the results of writing kills) to a broader audience the internet. Kids will learn to program the Internet -- just because it's there! Why leave them to their own devices and some of the more obscure languages -- to helter-skelter mix format layout and content. Rather, teach them to do it right (better) with superior tools. Are you saying that while the CFMX approach is good enough for you and I to use,it is not good enough for our kids? What do you propose instead? Finally, I think that kids will not have much trouble grasping the difference between content and layout (packaging), as they are constantly exposed to it in there everyday lives. I think that, properly presented, the value of both form and substance can be learned -- and the web contains millions of examples (good and bad) of both. Dick Maybe we will raise a generation that understands the difference between form and substance. Jochem ~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?method=subscribeforumid=4 FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Your ad could be here. Monies from ads go to support these lists and provide more resources for the community. http://www.fusionauthority.com/ads.cfm
RE: CF4K was Re: Macromedia listening? is RE: ColdFusion for kids
This is my old highschool...was mostly gangs back when I was there but pretty impressive changes in recent years...by grade 11 they're building e-com systems. http://www.riverdalehighonline.com/showcase.html -Original Message- From: Dick Applebaum [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Saturday, December 07, 2002 6:47 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: CF4K was Re: Macromedia listening? is RE: ColdFusion for kids On Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 03:13 PM, Jochem van Dieten wrote: Dick Applebaum wrote: This is such a great idea, that I am surprised by the few responses. cynical That is because most people with experience in that field expect the resistance to change that seems to be inherent in educational systems to overcome this idea just like all great ideas of the past. /cynical I, actually, do have some experience in that field (computer training in high school), although a bit dated. I was involved in a project that installed the first computer LAN in a high school. There was some initial resistance (as there is with all change). But, once people grasped the concept and the benefits, acceptance, well, just snowballed! The lab became a prototype and everyone involved benefitted -- particularly the students -- there were high school students opening their own computer consulting firms. Apart from the fact that I don't think it is such a great idea at all. Learn kids to write in a concise and structured way, don't give them HTML to play with (just think of the poor teachers that have to grade something that was written with inordinate amounts of blink tags and text colors on a purple background). If you want to add layout, add some stylesheets and XSLT and let the rounding of the mark depend on it, but the mixing of content and layout is something you *don't* want to teach children. I agree that writing skills are very important and should be learned in a structured way. But we are discussing additional skills to bring the content (the results of writing kills) to a broader audience the internet. Kids will learn to program the Internet -- just because it's there! Why leave them to their own devices and some of the more obscure languages -- to helter-skelter mix format layout and content. Rather, teach them to do it right (better) with superior tools. Are you saying that while the CFMX approach is good enough for you and I to use,it is not good enough for our kids? What do you propose instead? Finally, I think that kids will not have much trouble grasping the difference between content and layout (packaging), as they are constantly exposed to it in there everyday lives. I think that, properly presented, the value of both form and substance can be learned -- and the web contains millions of examples (good and bad) of both. Dick Maybe we will raise a generation that understands the difference between form and substance. Jochem ~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?method=subscribeforumid=4 FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Signup for the Fusion Authority news alert and keep up with the latest news in ColdFusion and related topics. http://www.fusionauthority.com/signup.cfm
RE: CF4K was Re: Macromedia listening? is RE: ColdFusion for kids
Part of the curriculum is Flash and DW LOL -Original Message- From: Stacy Young Sent: Saturday, December 07, 2002 7:33 PM To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' Subject: RE: CF4K was Re: Macromedia listening? is RE: ColdFusion for kids This is my old highschool...was mostly gangs back when I was there but pretty impressive changes in recent years...by grade 11 they're building e-com systems. http://www.riverdalehighonline.com/showcase.html -Original Message- From: Dick Applebaum [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Saturday, December 07, 2002 6:47 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: CF4K was Re: Macromedia listening? is RE: ColdFusion for kids On Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 03:13 PM, Jochem van Dieten wrote: Dick Applebaum wrote: This is such a great idea, that I am surprised by the few responses. cynical That is because most people with experience in that field expect the resistance to change that seems to be inherent in educational systems to overcome this idea just like all great ideas of the past. /cynical I, actually, do have some experience in that field (computer training in high school), although a bit dated. I was involved in a project that installed the first computer LAN in a high school. There was some initial resistance (as there is with all change). But, once people grasped the concept and the benefits, acceptance, well, just snowballed! The lab became a prototype and everyone involved benefitted -- particularly the students -- there were high school students opening their own computer consulting firms. Apart from the fact that I don't think it is such a great idea at all. Learn kids to write in a concise and structured way, don't give them HTML to play with (just think of the poor teachers that have to grade something that was written with inordinate amounts of blink tags and text colors on a purple background). If you want to add layout, add some stylesheets and XSLT and let the rounding of the mark depend on it, but the mixing of content and layout is something you *don't* want to teach children. I agree that writing skills are very important and should be learned in a structured way. But we are discussing additional skills to bring the content (the results of writing kills) to a broader audience the internet. Kids will learn to program the Internet -- just because it's there! Why leave them to their own devices and some of the more obscure languages -- to helter-skelter mix format layout and content. Rather, teach them to do it right (better) with superior tools. Are you saying that while the CFMX approach is good enough for you and I to use,it is not good enough for our kids? What do you propose instead? Finally, I think that kids will not have much trouble grasping the difference between content and layout (packaging), as they are constantly exposed to it in there everyday lives. I think that, properly presented, the value of both form and substance can be learned -- and the web contains millions of examples (good and bad) of both. Dick Maybe we will raise a generation that understands the difference between form and substance. Jochem ~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?method=subscribeforumid=4 FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Your ad could be here. Monies from ads go to support these lists and provide more resources for the community. http://www.fusionauthority.com/ads.cfm
Re: CF4K was Re: Macromedia listening? is RE: ColdFusion for kids
On Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 04:33 PM, Stacy Young wrote: This is my old highschool...was mostly gangs back when I was there but pretty impressive changes in recent years...by grade 11 they're building e-com systems. http://www.riverdalehighonline.com/showcase.html Impressed! That's quite a site! Do most of the highschools in Canada have computer labs, as in the US? With what do they build their e-com sites? Dick ~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?method=subscribeforumid=4 FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm
RE: CF4K was Re: Macromedia listening? is RE: ColdFusion for kids
I would say they do...school system is quite good in most areas. We had a computer lab when I was in elementary school. (All MACs/Apples)...There were maybe 15 machinesand that was back in..um...83-84 maybe? Most projects involved working with a program called Logo...it was a little turtle that u would program to draw pictures. That's actually what generated my first interest in puters. FD 60 (forward 60 pixels) RT 45 (right turn 45 degrees) FD 100 LT 90 FD 150 There were school contests for drawing more elaborate things that involved some flash-like programming... Stace -Original Message- From: Dick Applebaum [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Saturday, December 07, 2002 7:51 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: CF4K was Re: Macromedia listening? is RE: ColdFusion for kids On Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 04:33 PM, Stacy Young wrote: This is my old highschool...was mostly gangs back when I was there but pretty impressive changes in recent years...by grade 11 they're building e-com systems. http://www.riverdalehighonline.com/showcase.html Impressed! That's quite a site! Do most of the highschools in Canada have computer labs, as in the US? With what do they build their e-com sites? Dick ~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?method=subscribeforumid=4 FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Signup for the Fusion Authority news alert and keep up with the latest news in ColdFusion and related topics. http://www.fusionauthority.com/signup.cfm
Re: CF4K was Re: Macromedia listening? is RE: ColdFusion for kids
On Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 04:33 PM, Stacy Young wrote: This is my old highschool...was mostly gangs back when I was there but pretty impressive changes in recent years...by grade 11 they're building e-com systems. http://www.riverdalehighonline.com/showcase.html Well, here is the high school that installed the first computer lab network in June 1980: 7 Apple ][ computers networked to a 5 MB Corvus Hard disk and a Centronics printer Only the administrators Apple ][ had floppy drives. http://www.saratogahigh.org/shs/academics/academics.html My daughter is an alumnus of SHS, -- though she never took computer lab. I haven't had contact with anyone at the school since !988 -- but they seem to be doing quite well. As I mentioned, SHS was the prototype for HS computer labs all over the US. Mmmm... maybe they are already doing web stuff just need to upgrade to dynamic content Dick ~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?method=subscribeforumid=4 FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Signup for the Fusion Authority news alert and keep up with the latest news in ColdFusion and related topics. http://www.fusionauthority.com/signup.cfm
RE: CF4K was Re: Macromedia listening? is RE: ColdFusion for kids
Maybe this thread is going a little OT here but one last comment...Just read that some elementary schools here are teaching multimedia math...in kindergarten !! Damn...all we did was draw with crayons and throw paint everywhere... Stace -Original Message- From: Stacy Young [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Saturday, December 07, 2002 8:03 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: CF4K was Re: Macromedia listening? is RE: ColdFusion for kids I would say they do...school system is quite good in most areas. We had a computer lab when I was in elementary school. (All MACs/Apples)...There were maybe 15 machinesand that was back in..um...83-84 maybe? Most projects involved working with a program called Logo...it was a little turtle that u would program to draw pictures. That's actually what generated my first interest in puters. FD 60 (forward 60 pixels) RT 45 (right turn 45 degrees) FD 100 LT 90 FD 150 There were school contests for drawing more elaborate things that involved some flash-like programming... Stace -Original Message- From: Dick Applebaum [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Saturday, December 07, 2002 7:51 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: CF4K was Re: Macromedia listening? is RE: ColdFusion for kids On Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 04:33 PM, Stacy Young wrote: This is my old highschool...was mostly gangs back when I was there but pretty impressive changes in recent years...by grade 11 they're building e-com systems. http://www.riverdalehighonline.com/showcase.html Impressed! That's quite a site! Do most of the highschools in Canada have computer labs, as in the US? With what do they build their e-com sites? Dick ~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?method=subscribeforumid=4 FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Get the mailserver that powers this list at http://www.coolfusion.com
Re: CF4K was Re: Macromedia listening? is RE: ColdFusion for kids
Yes! Logo! Who can forget the turtle turtlegraphics? Dick On Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 05:02 PM, Stacy Young wrote: I would say they do...school system is quite good in most areas. We had a computer lab when I was in elementary school. (All MACs/Apples)...There were maybe 15 machinesand that was back in..um...83-84 maybe? Most projects involved working with a program called Logo...it was a little turtle that u would program to draw pictures. That's actually what generated my first interest in puters. FD 60 (forward 60 pixels) RT 45 (right turn 45 degrees) FD 100 LT 90 FD 150 There were school contests for drawing more elaborate things that involved some flash-like programming... Stace ~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?method=subscribeforumid=4 FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm
RE: CF4K was Re: Macromedia listening? is RE: ColdFusion for kids
Ya it seems every site I've checked are into all kinds of multimedia and web... -Original Message- From: Dick Applebaum [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Saturday, December 07, 2002 8:09 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: CF4K was Re: Macromedia listening? is RE: ColdFusion for kids On Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 04:33 PM, Stacy Young wrote: This is my old highschool...was mostly gangs back when I was there but pretty impressive changes in recent years...by grade 11 they're building e-com systems. http://www.riverdalehighonline.com/showcase.html Well, here is the high school that installed the first computer lab network in June 1980: 7 Apple ][ computers networked to a 5 MB Corvus Hard disk and a Centronics printer Only the administrators Apple ][ had floppy drives. http://www.saratogahigh.org/shs/academics/academics.html My daughter is an alumnus of SHS, -- though she never took computer lab. I haven't had contact with anyone at the school since !988 -- but they seem to be doing quite well. As I mentioned, SHS was the prototype for HS computer labs all over the US. Mmmm... maybe they are already doing web stuff just need to upgrade to dynamic content Dick ~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?method=subscribeforumid=4 FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq This list and all House of Fusion resources hosted by CFHosting.com. The place for dependable ColdFusion Hosting.
Re: CF4K was Re: Macromedia listening? is RE: ColdFusion for kids
On Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 05:09 PM, Stacy Young wrote: Maybe this thread is going a little OT here but one last comment...Just read that some elementary schools here are teaching multimedia math...in kindergarten !! Damn...all we did was draw with crayons and throw paint everywhere... What about clay-class, finger-painting and paper-machae [sp] -- Oh, those were in High school in Pasadena, California. It's a slow day, Michael and Judith are tolerant --- --- and Kay's original post was spot on! This is an opportunity, if I've ever seen one! Dick ~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?method=subscribeforumid=4 FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Signup for the Fusion Authority news alert and keep up with the latest news in ColdFusion and related topics. http://www.fusionauthority.com/signup.cfm
Re: ColdFusion for kids
Wow... thanks to everyone for all the responses! Here's what I think I'm going to do. I'll create a couple of basic tutorials, and test 'em on my brother. Then I'll put them online on my site, so if anyone else wants to mould the mini-nerds in their lives, there's somewhere to start. I've taken all your ideas on board. Jochem, I see your point. But these kids are already doing some computing in school, and I think they are better off learning something they can build on in the future than how to use Word (it was Microsoft Works when I was in high school, but same deal). In my brother's case, creating his personal site - that was last weekend's project - also involved checking his spelling, grammar, and thinking out his message so it was clear and made sense. I'm emphasising quality control at every step. He's using DWMX (as he's using my computer), so we're looking at the html source a little too. He's interested in creating web sites, so I want to encourage him to try new, more challenging projects. Interesting anecdote: when he first took his school project html site and started editing it for real, each page had a different horrific tiling background. My Dad and I tried not to say anything, not wanting to dampen his enthusiasm. But a week later he had removed all the hideous backgrounds and put a consistent colour scheme on each page. Kids really do learn by osmosis. I bought him a book called html with css and xhtml for Christmas - we'll get rid of those tables yet :) Macromedia have a very small presence in Australia. If anything, I think their educational focus should be getting CF into universities first, which is starting to happen. But for kids with an interest, who want to be ahead of their peers, I think CF is a great stepping stone. Kay. http://kay.smoljak.com ~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?method=subscribeforumid=4 FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Get the mailserver that powers this list at http://www.coolfusion.com
RE: CF4K was Re: Macromedia listening? is RE: ColdFusion for kids
I can't help myself... I have to chime in. Totally OT: Dick Applebaum wrote: Well, here is the high school that installed the first computer lab network in June 1980: snip http://www.saratogahigh.org/shs/academics/academics.html Small world. I graduated from Fremont High in June 1980, which is in the same town and high school district as Saratoga High. We were pretty fierce rivals. At the time all we had was a few Commodore PETs, and a LOT of cobbled-together stuff, much of it hand-me-downs from parents working in/around HP, Atari, Lockheed, Fairchild et al. Wasn't it SHS where the entire senior class all got straight F's on their report cards cuz persons-unknown broke into the FUHSD system and... Tinkered? Was either 1979 or 1980. Killed too many gray cells since to remember exactly. Great time/place to grow up: Sunnyvale CA, right when all that PC stuff started. --Matt Robertson-- MSB Designs, Inc. http://mysecretbase.com ~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?method=subscribeforumid=4 FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Get the mailserver that powers this list at http://www.coolfusion.com
Re: CF4K was Re: Macromedia listening? is RE: ColdFusion for kids
Matt Really, Really OT If you were a computer geek between 1978 and 1989, then we've probably met! Yeah, I know FHS -- Freemont and Saratoga-Sunnyvale. I and 2 others owned some computer stores, one was 2 blocks away at Fremont and Mary -- Computer Plus --across the parking lot from the Velvet Turtle. You guys (FHS) were behind in some ways, but you had cable TV VCRs in every classroom (unique at that time). There was a teacher there Jerry -- can't remember his last name but, he was really progressive and liked by the students -- Jerry was trying to set up a computer lab -- got no support from anybody. We did some small stuff with FHS, but it never really got going. Anyway, FHS was in a different district than SHS, with completely different funding. But we had several FHS students on our payroll -- between skateboarding, and Hires graphics they helped sell a lot of computers. Greg Porter, Joe Wilson come to mind. A few years after you graduated, Woz tried to donate several million to Sunnyvale HS (same district) to set up a computer lab, But, politics got in the way they could never could figure out what to do with the money. You/we grew in the heart of Silicon Valley, when everything was exciting new! Dick On Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 06:43 PM, Matt Robertson wrote: I can't help myself... I have to chime in. Totally OT: Dick Applebaum wrote: Well, here is the high school that installed the first computer lab network in June 1980: snip http://www.saratogahigh.org/shs/academics/academics.html Small world. I graduated from Fremont High in June 1980, which is in the same town and high school district as Saratoga High. We were pretty fierce rivals. At the time all we had was a few Commodore PETs, and a LOT of cobbled-together stuff, much of it hand-me-downs from parents working in/around HP, Atari, Lockheed, Fairchild et al. Wasn't it SHS where the entire senior class all got straight F's on their report cards cuz persons-unknown broke into the FUHSD system and... Tinkered? Was either 1979 or 1980. Killed too many gray cells since to remember exactly. Great time/place to grow up: Sunnyvale CA, right when all that PC stuff started. --Matt Robertson-- MSB Designs, Inc. http://mysecretbase.com ~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?method=subscribeforumid=4 FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Your ad could be here. Monies from ads go to support these lists and provide more resources for the community. http://www.fusionauthority.com/ads.cfm
RE: CF4K was Re: Macromedia listening? is RE: ColdFusion for kids
LAST on-list OT, I promise! We have met, I think. I know that store if my (hazy) recollection is correct. Near a Farrells and the Bicycle Tree? I dinked around on some ***really*** early Apple computers there. Highly advanced casette recorder used to load programs. Way too sophisticated for floppies. If that was you, then a) I remember it quite well and b) you bear partial blame for getting me interested in this field. Man, talk about memory lane! I took boxing at Sunnyvale High. Tough crowd ;) --Matt-- -Original Message- From: Dick Applebaum [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Saturday, December 07, 2002 7:22 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: CF4K was Re: Macromedia listening? is RE: ColdFusion for kids Matt Really, Really OT If you were a computer geek between 1978 and 1989, then we've probably met! Yeah, I know FHS -- Freemont and Saratoga-Sunnyvale. I and 2 others owned some computer stores, one was 2 blocks away at Fremont and Mary -- Computer Plus --across the parking lot from the Velvet Turtle. You guys (FHS) were behind in some ways, but you had cable TV VCRs in every classroom (unique at that time). There was a teacher there Jerry -- can't remember his last name but, he was really progressive and liked by the students -- Jerry was trying to set up a computer lab -- got no support from anybody. We did some small stuff with FHS, but it never really got going. Anyway, FHS was in a different district than SHS, with completely different funding. But we had several FHS students on our payroll -- between skateboarding, and Hires graphics they helped sell a lot of computers. Greg Porter, Joe Wilson come to mind. A few years after you graduated, Woz tried to donate several million to Sunnyvale HS (same district) to set up a computer lab, But, politics got in the way they could never could figure out what to do with the money. You/we grew in the heart of Silicon Valley, when everything was exciting new! Dick On Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 06:43 PM, Matt Robertson wrote: I can't help myself... I have to chime in. Totally OT: Dick Applebaum wrote: Well, here is the high school that installed the first computer lab network in June 1980: snip http://www.saratogahigh.org/shs/academics/academics.html Small world. I graduated from Fremont High in June 1980, which is in the same town and high school district as Saratoga High. We were pretty fierce rivals. At the time all we had was a few Commodore PETs, and a LOT of cobbled-together stuff, much of it hand-me-downs from parents working in/around HP, Atari, Lockheed, Fairchild et al. Wasn't it SHS where the entire senior class all got straight F's on their report cards cuz persons-unknown broke into the FUHSD system and... Tinkered? Was either 1979 or 1980. Killed too many gray cells since to remember exactly. Great time/place to grow up: Sunnyvale CA, right when all that PC stuff started. --Matt Robertson-- MSB Designs, Inc. http://mysecretbase.com ~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?method=subscribeforumid=4 FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Your ad could be here. Monies from ads go to support these lists and provide more resources for the community. http://www.fusionauthority.com/ads.cfm
Re: ColdFusion for kids
I do have to say my daughter is 2 and loves to play with the keyboard and pretend to read one of my CF books on my desks. I think I'll start her next year ;) - Perhaps she'll be one of the youngest yet ! he he All kidding and OT aside - I think it's amazing and very positive the response received. Now if only all the juggling and red tape and most school districts was easier to navigate through.. I am sure dreamed up future programs such as this would be easier to integrate. jay miller Kay Smoljak wrote: Wow... thanks to everyone for all the responses! Here's what I think I'm going to do. I'll create a couple of basic tutorials, and test 'em on my brother. Then I'll put them online on my site, so if anyone else wants to mould the mini-nerds in their lives, there's somewhere to start. I've taken all your ideas on board. Jochem, I see your point. But these kids are already doing some computing in school, and I think they are better off learning something they can build on in the future than how to use Word (it was Microsoft Works when I was in high school, but same deal). In my brother's case, creating his personal site - that was last weekend's project - also involved checking his spelling, grammar, and thinking out his message so it was clear and made sense. I'm emphasising quality control at every step. He's using DWMX (as he's using my computer), so we're looking at the html source a little too. He's interested in creating web sites, so I want to encourage him to try new, more challenging projects. Interesting anecdote: when he first took his school project html site and started editing it for real, each page had a different horrific tiling background. My Dad and I tried not to say anything, not wanting to dampen his enthusiasm. But a week later he had removed all the hideous backgrounds and put a consistent colour scheme on each page. Kids really do learn by osmosis. I bought him a book called html with css and xhtml for Christmas - we'll get rid of those tables yet :) Macromedia have a very small presence in Australia. If anything, I think their educational focus should be getting CF into universities first, which is starting to happen. But for kids with an interest, who want to be ahead of their peers, I think CF is a great stepping stone. Kay. http://kay.smoljak.com ~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?method=subscribeforumid=4 FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq This list and all House of Fusion resources hosted by CFHosting.com. The place for dependable ColdFusion Hosting.
RE: ColdFusion for kids
My little brother, who's 13, is just starting to learn HTML. I'm storing his personal site on my CF5 account. He wants his site to be cooler than anyone else's at school, so I was thinking of making him a simple CF tutorial - maybe using cfinclude to get a header on each page, displaying and formatting the current date and time, stuff like that. Before I do this all myself, does anyone know of anything similar online already? Or, any suggestions for what I could include? At one point, Macromedia (or Allaire, I forget which) offered a tutorial CD, called SkillBuilding or something like that. You might look for that - it was around $75 or so. I don't know if it was any good, since I never used it. I don't know if it's still offered, but even if it isn't, you might be able to get it from someone. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ voice: (202) 797-5496 fax: (202) 797-5444 ~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?method=subscribeforumid=4 FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm
RE: ColdFusion for kids
P.S. There is a member of this list who was/is a teenage prodigy with CF (and quite a few other web technologies) -- Dave, if you see this, you could provide some real-life experience for input! I'm not sure whether you're referring to me, since there are plenty of Daves, so forgive me if I'm presuming too much. If you are referring to me, I unfortunately will have to disappoint you, since I was never a teenage prodigy with CF or anything else, although I was considered pretty competent with small arms in my late teens. I can comment on learning programming informally, though. I didn't come from a CS background, but learned programming the hard way, by trial-and-error, basically. Being self-taught sounds nice, but if you think about it, it's kind of silly - if you're self-taught, your teacher is by definition incompetent! And, that sums it up pretty well - by not learning programming in a formal setting, I made it a lot harder than it had to be. I think that this is true for a lot of people who got into programming during the web boom, actually - the lack of formal training is often very apparent. Kids will learn to program the Internet -- just because it's there! Why leave them to their own devices and some of the more obscure languages -- to helter-skelter mix format layout and content. Rather, teach them to do it right (better) with superior tools. Are you saying that while the CFMX approach is good enough for you and I to use, it is not good enough for our kids? What do you propose instead? I hate to be a wet blanket, but I'm not a big fan of teaching CF programming to kids, for several reasons. First, I'm not sure that we should be teaching programming to kids generally; on the list of things that everyone should learn, I think it's pretty low. There's a difference between learning basic computer skills (which, sadly, are necessary for almost everyone nowadays) and learning how to program. I think it's a sad commentary on the state of the computer industry that people have to spend so much time learning basic computer skills, actually - these things are supposed to be easy to use, but of course they aren't, really. I'd much rather see every student have a firmer grasp on the three Rs than have them all able to churn out web applications. I'd rather see civics classes again, actually. I just don't think programming is all that important, I guess. Second, for those students who want to learn programming, I think it's more important to focus on core programming concepts than it is to teach the specifics of CFMX. I'd rather see them learn programming using a lower-level language than CFML, and a more general-purpose language, too. I think Java and Python would be better languages for learning how to program. Finally, for teaching purposes, you don't want to make things too easy - for example, if you wanted to teach someone about HTML, Notepad would be a better tool (I think) than Dreamweaver MX. I see this a lot, actually, now that Dreamweaver is used in the Macromedia courses. The Fast Track To ColdFusion class is easier for students, because they don't have to know any HTML to get through it, but the students don't actually know how to generate a dynamic select box, say, because in Dreamweaver you do it by clicking on a button or two, rather than by typing in the necessary HTML and CFML. So, yes, CFMX is good enough for us to use, but not good enough for our kids. Personally, I'd be very distraught if my kids ended up being CF programmers. Shouldn't we want our kids to be better off than we are? (I don't have any kids, so this is purely hypothetical for me. If I did, I'd be pushing them toward law school instead of programming.) So, now you have a 13-year-old who understands HTML, CFML, SQL-- watch out! That's all well and good - if he's going to start working today as a consultant. In the long run, again, I think he'd be better served by learning general programming theory rather than the specifics of languages that may well be obsolete by the time he's ready to work in the field. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ voice: (202) 797-5496 fax: (202) 797-5444 ~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?method=subscribeforumid=4 FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm
RE: CF4K was Re: Macromedia listening? is RE: ColdFusion for kids
This led me to do some searching for Logo and turtle graphics (2nd grade for me) and I found this, and it actually pertains to the original thread (kind of) http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?WhatSortOfComputationWouldInterestJuniorSchoolCh ildren This is an off-shoot of an article talking about Logo in general. The link for that is: http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?LogoLanguage -Original Message- From: Dick Applebaum [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Saturday, December 07, 2002 5:13 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: CF4K was Re: Macromedia listening? is RE: ColdFusion for kids Yes! Logo! Who can forget the turtle turtlegraphics? Dick On Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 05:02 PM, Stacy Young wrote: I would say they do...school system is quite good in most areas. We had a computer lab when I was in elementary school. (All MACs/Apples)...There were maybe 15 machinesand that was back in..um...83-84 maybe? Most projects involved working with a program called Logo...it was a little turtle that u would program to draw pictures. That's actually what generated my first interest in puters. FD 60 (forward 60 pixels) RT 45 (right turn 45 degrees) FD 100 LT 90 FD 150 There were school contests for drawing more elaborate things that involved some flash-like programming... Stace ~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?method=subscribeforumid=4 FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Get the mailserver that powers this list at http://www.coolfusion.com
