[cfaussie] Re: Coldfuson is dead - why did no one tell me

[Andrew Scott]

Hmmm...

1) I agree that Good CF developers are hard to find, and this means one
thing as you said either spend the money and train them or move onto a
platform that you can get or have the resources to do the job in. That
reality is what is hurting Coldfusion, which is a pity..

2) You don't like your code meshed with your layout? Are you serious on that
statement, name one language that doesn't do this? At least with Coldfusion
it is a little more readable tham PHP, JSP etc.

3) Whether you have dabbled with CFEclipse or not it is free, and that was
the point made back.


Andrew Scott
Senior Coldfusion Developer
Aegeon Pty. Ltd.
www.aegeon.com.au
Phone: +613  8676 4223
Mobile: 0404 998 273



-Original Message-
From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of schlub
Sent: Thursday, 31 May 2007 4:36 PM
To: cfaussie
Subject: [cfaussie] Re: Coldfuson is dead - why did no one tell me


My comments mixed in too :)

On May 30, 8:15 pm, "Simon Haddon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Yes I agree.  There are a shortage of CF developers.  There are also a
> shortage of all developers at the moment. To say CF is dying would
indicate
> that Adobe don't want to invest in it any more.  As for learning CF.  Most
> ppl learn on the job as it takes only a short time to learn the language.

It is far easier to find a PHP, .NET or even a Java developer than CF.
That's just from my personal experience here.
The way I see it, if you can't get developers with the appropriate
skills you've either got to invest in training them, or switch to
another platform. We've elected to slowly move away from CF for that
reason. We're not going to drop it altogether, but it certainly won't
be the first language choice for new projects like it used to be.

> It sound like you have a distast for CF anyway.  Some ppl like it others
> don't.  That is fine and each to their own. Saying you would use ASP.NET
or
> PHP over CF again sounds like a personal taste not an indication the CF is
> dying.  Interesting you mention portablilty.  Since when is
> ASP.NETportable.  Since when is PHP portable between different
> databases?  I would say that CF is the most portable language out of the
lot.
> Being Java under the hood it makes it portable and distributable in a
variety of formats.

It's true I have a certain distaste for CF, but it's mainly due to the
implementation of it. I don't like having my code meshed with my
layout. Many CF developers are still using of old procedural methods,
and maintenance can be a pain. Using a good framework can alleviate
this to a certain degree, but its still only half way. The ideal is to
use cfc's etc, but I haven't seen them used very much so far. The
preference for CF and ASP.NET has only risen out of the shortage for
CF developers and the need to move with what the education system is
churning out. I agree when you say Java is more portable, but I was
think more in terms of hosting companies and what platforms they offer
- I don't have any figures to back this up, but i'm certain that 9/10
would support ASP.NET and PHP. Maybe half of that would support CF?

> I don't understand the comparson between CF and IIS.  IIS can be compared
to
> Apache but not CF.  You can compare CF to  any other application server
you
> like but IIS is a web server.

I understand the distinction, but to run ASP.NET you only need IIS
(with .NET framework installed). To run CF you need IIS (or Apache)
and CF Server.
The argument with a Manager would be something like this: "We can
build amazing web applications and we need a server with IIS on it.
The client tools are all free too... That's it, nothing else to
purchase. All the fresh graduates already know the language already so
they can start tomorrow!"
or "We can build amazing web application and we need a server with
IIS, and ColdFusion Server which will set you back a thousand or so,
plus the client tools will cost a couple of hundred (if you dont want
to use Eclipse)... oh and we'll need to train all the fresh graduates
in CF as they only know ASP.NET and PHP."

> The IDE for CF that is mostly used for CF is now Eclipse.  It is free and
> very good.  Link it in with CFEclipse, FusionDebug, Mylar, etc and you
have
> an integrated IDE for free.  Most ppl agree the Dreamweaver and Homesite
are
> pretty average although a few ppl I know swear by Homesite

Yeah, I have dabbled with CFEclipse but it just hasn't grabbed me. I
probably just need to spend more time using it. :)

> You comment about developers is true of any language.  Nothing new here.

My recent experience has shown that CF developers are especially hard
to come by :)

> This sounds like a problem with your outsourcing arrangements and not a
> fault of the language.

Very true... it also indicates the difficulty of finding good CF
developers :)

> Where do you get you figure from?  Or don't you have any.  ASP.nET is well
> supported and so is PHP, CF and most other languages around.  I have no

[cfaussie] Re: CF Report Builder

[AJ Mercer]

OK - it turns out I have an old version of commons-digester-1.3.jar
http://www.adobe.com/cfusion/knowledgebase/index.cfm?id=96ce62cd


On 5/31/07, Lucas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> nope! it is just the designer...
>
> On 5/31/07, AJ Mercer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > Do you need to install the report builder on the cf server to be run the
> > reports (cfr)?
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Lucas
>
> http://www.thebitbucket.net/
> >
>


-- 
If you are not living on the edge,
You are taking up too much space.

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[cfaussie] Re: CF Report Builder

[Lucas]

nope! it is just the designer...

On 5/31/07, AJ Mercer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Do you need to install the report builder on the cf server to be run the
> reports (cfr)?
>
> >
>


-- 
Lucas

http://www.thebitbucket.net/

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[cfaussie] Re: CF Report Builder

[Andrew Scott]

no

 



Andrew Scott
Senior Coldfusion Developer
Aegeon Pty. Ltd.
  www.aegeon.com.au
Phone: +613  8676 4223
Mobile: 0404 998 273

 

 

From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of AJ Mercer
Sent: Thursday, 31 May 2007 4:42 PM
To: cfaussie@googlegroups.com
Subject: [cfaussie] CF Report Builder

 

Do you need to install the report builder on the cf server to be run the
reports (cfr)?



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[cfaussie] CF Report Builder

[AJ Mercer]

Do you need to install the report builder on the cf server to be run the
reports (cfr)?

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[cfaussie] Virtual Server Hosting

[Dale Fraser]

Hello,

 

We currently run our own servers in a data centre and we are due this year
to upgrade a lot of things, such as the servers and ColdFusion 8.

 

So I want to evaluate hosting this else where to weigh up the cost pro's
cons.

 

It would need to be

 

1.  In the US or AU

2.  Have good uptime and SLA

3.  Have good bandwidth

4.  Have well speced machines.

5.  Have no restrictions on installing / rebooting server

6.  Have multiple days worth of backups, ie 7+ day backups

7.  Run Coldfusion Enterprise (Version 8 when released)

8.  Run SQL Server 2005

 

I've found some and looking more, but figure people here would have
experience.

 

Regards

Dale Fraser

 

http://dalefraser.blogspot.com

 


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[cfaussie] Re: Coldfuson is dead - why did no one tell me

[schlub]

My comments mixed in too :)

On May 30, 8:15 pm, "Simon Haddon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Yes I agree.  There are a shortage of CF developers.  There are also a
> shortage of all developers at the moment. To say CF is dying would indicate
> that Adobe don't want to invest in it any more.  As for learning CF.  Most
> ppl learn on the job as it takes only a short time to learn the language.

It is far easier to find a PHP, .NET or even a Java developer than CF.
That's just from my personal experience here.
The way I see it, if you can't get developers with the appropriate
skills you've either got to invest in training them, or switch to
another platform. We've elected to slowly move away from CF for that
reason. We're not going to drop it altogether, but it certainly won't
be the first language choice for new projects like it used to be.

> It sound like you have a distast for CF anyway.  Some ppl like it others
> don't.  That is fine and each to their own. Saying you would use ASP.NET or
> PHP over CF again sounds like a personal taste not an indication the CF is
> dying.  Interesting you mention portablilty.  Since when is
> ASP.NETportable.  Since when is PHP portable between different
> databases?  I would say that CF is the most portable language out of the lot.
> Being Java under the hood it makes it portable and distributable in a variety 
> of formats.

It's true I have a certain distaste for CF, but it's mainly due to the
implementation of it. I don't like having my code meshed with my
layout. Many CF developers are still using of old procedural methods,
and maintenance can be a pain. Using a good framework can alleviate
this to a certain degree, but its still only half way. The ideal is to
use cfc's etc, but I haven't seen them used very much so far. The
preference for CF and ASP.NET has only risen out of the shortage for
CF developers and the need to move with what the education system is
churning out. I agree when you say Java is more portable, but I was
think more in terms of hosting companies and what platforms they offer
- I don't have any figures to back this up, but i'm certain that 9/10
would support ASP.NET and PHP. Maybe half of that would support CF?

> I don't understand the comparson between CF and IIS.  IIS can be compared to
> Apache but not CF.  You can compare CF to  any other application server you
> like but IIS is a web server.

I understand the distinction, but to run ASP.NET you only need IIS
(with .NET framework installed). To run CF you need IIS (or Apache)
and CF Server.
The argument with a Manager would be something like this: "We can
build amazing web applications and we need a server with IIS on it.
The client tools are all free too... That's it, nothing else to
purchase. All the fresh graduates already know the language already so
they can start tomorrow!"
or "We can build amazing web application and we need a server with
IIS, and ColdFusion Server which will set you back a thousand or so,
plus the client tools will cost a couple of hundred (if you dont want
to use Eclipse)... oh and we'll need to train all the fresh graduates
in CF as they only know ASP.NET and PHP."

> The IDE for CF that is mostly used for CF is now Eclipse.  It is free and
> very good.  Link it in with CFEclipse, FusionDebug, Mylar, etc and you have
> an integrated IDE for free.  Most ppl agree the Dreamweaver and Homesite are
> pretty average although a few ppl I know swear by Homesite

Yeah, I have dabbled with CFEclipse but it just hasn't grabbed me. I
probably just need to spend more time using it. :)

> You comment about developers is true of any language.  Nothing new here.

My recent experience has shown that CF developers are especially hard
to come by :)

> This sounds like a problem with your outsourcing arrangements and not a
> fault of the language.

Very true... it also indicates the difficulty of finding good CF
developers :)

> Where do you get you figure from?  Or don't you have any.  ASP.nET is well
> supported and so is PHP, CF and most other languages around.  I have no
> problems finding a good company that does CF hosting.  I would also suggest
> that most clients that need a website also need their own server unless you
> are talking about tiny sites.  If you need your own server then it doesn't
> matter what you put on it.

It's all just from experience... I can easily be proven wrong, and if
so i'll retract the statement(s) :)
If each site needs its own server, wouldn't that suggest that
convincing the client to spend nothing installing IIS on a windows
server is much easier than pursuading them to spend a thousand or so
on an additional CF Server? Isnt the end product the same?

Cheers,
schlub


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For mo

[cfaussie] Re: Coldfuson is dead - why did no one tell me

[Barry Beattie]

this is the results of the cfeverywhere project from a couple of years back?

I wish it was around 4 years ago. Could it help to get by? on small
tasks, yes definitely. But it would have issues with
collaborative/team projects, assessment processes, auditing, exposure
to the outside world, showcasing student work, etc.

Put it this way, I know for a fact that our creative industries
faculty have their own streaming and webservers for student work. for
video they have looked at things like YouTube instead of centrally
controlling student content (per faculty or per institution) but
that's raised many issues that's still being worked through.

so, many thanks for the FYI, Chris.

lets try and put a positive spin on this and think of the future: in
what way are Adobe engaging educational institutions to bring CF into
the class room?  What worthwhile educational support  programs are out
there I can try to bring to the attention of possibly the right
people? What incentives can I enlighten them to?

I'm no longer in the classroom so some things might have missed my
attention. And I no longer have any direct control over course content
but it ... ahem.. .  might be handy to know**

I am aware that this year is the first year in a long while that _new_
student enrolements in IT are actually up (at least here). From trough
to crest, the wave is starting to turn. Now is as good a time as any
to  start. Especially if there's a splash of CF publicity on a new
release to back it up with.


** and I know there are others on list who could also benefit from knowing this.







On 5/31/07, Chris Velevitch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> On 5/31/07, Barry Beattie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > -
> > to all who say "The developer edition is free!"
> >
> > but, in an educational context, it's bloody useless stuck on public
> > labs machines or the student's laptop.
> >
> > -
>
> Barry, you're going to have to explain that one.
>
> I was also thinking about some of these virtual machines on a stick
> (http://www.moka5.com/ and http://www.moka5.com/node/885) where the
> student downloads and installs a VM, preconfigured with CF and a DB,
> and installs it on a USB stick. They can run it anywhere and they can
> screw it up with no impact on anyone else.
>
>
> Chris
> --
> Chris Velevitch
> Manager - Sydney Flash Platform Developers Group
> m: 0415 469 095
> www.flashdev.org.au
>
> >
>

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[cfaussie] Free CF8 Beta Hosting

[Dazman]

HostMySite.com are offering free ColdFusion 8 Beta Hosting.

"The free Scorpio Beta trial will be in effect as long as ColdFusion 8
is in beta. Customers will be notified 30 days prior to
discontinuation of the Scorpio Beta trial. HostMySite reserves the
right to discontinue the free Scorpio Beta trial at any time with
prior notification to Beta plan customers"

http://www.hostmysite.com/CF8/


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[cfaussie] Re: CFMAIL sending to multiple addresses through the query

[Andrew Scott]

Actually it can make a difference, but only to the CF server. If the mail
server is not inside your network, then it will be 1 email. Once it hits the
mail server it will be 101 emails. However, if you loop over with my method
it will be 101 emails from the coldfusion server.

 

But as far as I am concerned it is BAD practice to send so emails out for a
mailing list, or mail out or email campaign with emails in the CC address.
Its just wrong, and can cause problems with ISP's and mail clients as well
as antispam / antivirus software. Not to mention that, this field only can
hold so many email addresses to begin with.



Andrew Scott
Senior Coldfusion Developer
Aegeon Pty. Ltd.
www.aegeon.com.au
Phone: +613  8676 4223
Mobile: 0404 998 273


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[cfaussie] Re: Coldfuson is dead - why did no one tell me

[Chris Velevitch]

On 5/31/07, Barry Beattie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> -
> to all who say "The developer edition is free!"
>
> but, in an educational context, it's bloody useless stuck on public
> labs machines or the student's laptop.
>
> -

Barry, you're going to have to explain that one.

I was also thinking about some of these virtual machines on a stick
(http://www.moka5.com/ and http://www.moka5.com/node/885) where the
student downloads and installs a VM, preconfigured with CF and a DB,
and installs it on a USB stick. They can run it anywhere and they can
screw it up with no impact on anyone else.


Chris
-- 
Chris Velevitch
Manager - Sydney Flash Platform Developers Group
m: 0415 469 095
www.flashdev.org.au

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[cfaussie] Re: CFMAIL sending to multiple addresses through the query

[Dale Fraser]

It should be similar.

 

Either way the mail server has to send 100 messages.

 

It will however make a difference to Coldfusion, to Coldfusion it's one mail
request or 101.

 

Regards

Dale Fraser

 

http://dalefraser.blogspot.com

 

From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of AJ Mercer
Sent: Thursday, 31 May 2007 2:44 PM
To: cfaussie@googlegroups.com
Subject: [cfaussie] Re: CFMAIL sending to multiple addresses through the
query

 

Just to verify, to my mind, it would not make any difference in terms of
network traffic (number of emails going out) in either method - no?

1 email with 100 CCs Vs 101 separate emails (1 for the TO)



On 5/31/07, Andrew Scott <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


Very bad idea...

First of all you only have a certain amount that this field can cope with,
secondly it can be seen by some antispam software as being spam.

The only exception to this rule, is if you have a workflow for keeping 
people in the loop in intranet applications. But for general mail outs, wrap
the cfloop query around the cfmail tag.

Andrew Scott
Senior Coldfusion Developer
Aegeon Pty. Ltd.
www.aegeon.com.au
Phone: +613  8676 4223
Mobile: 0404 998 273



-Original Message-
From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto: cfaussie@googlegroups.com
 ] On Behalf
Of blueyoda
Sent: Thursday, 31 May 2007 12:46 PM
To: cfaussie
Subject: [cfaussie] CFMAIL sending to multiple addresses through the query


Does anyone know how to send 1 email through cfmail with multiple 
addresses in the cc field.
I have a query named USERS and need to cc all the users from this
table but I'm getting 1 email to each CCed user and multiple emails to
the To address.



help



http://groups.google.com/group/cfaussie?hl=en
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[cfaussie] Re: CFMAIL sending to multiple addresses through the query

[AJ Mercer]

Just to verify, to my mind, it would not make any difference in terms of
network traffic (number of emails going out) in either method - no?

1 email with 100 CCs Vs 101 separate emails (1 for the TO)


On 5/31/07, Andrew Scott <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
> Very bad idea...
>
> First of all you only have a certain amount that this field can cope with,
> secondly it can be seen by some antispam software as being spam.
>
> The only exception to this rule, is if you have a workflow for keeping
> people in the loop in intranet applications. But for general mail outs,
> wrap
> the cfloop query around the cfmail tag.
>
> Andrew Scott
> Senior Coldfusion Developer
> Aegeon Pty. Ltd.
> www.aegeon.com.au
> Phone: +613  8676 4223
> Mobile: 0404 998 273
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf
> Of blueyoda
> Sent: Thursday, 31 May 2007 12:46 PM
> To: cfaussie
> Subject: [cfaussie] CFMAIL sending to multiple addresses through the query
>
>
> Does anyone know how to send 1 email through cfmail with multiple
> addresses in the cc field.
> I have a query named USERS and need to cc all the users from this
> table but I'm getting 1 email to each CCed user and multiple emails to
> the To address.
>
>  to="#varables.my_Email_Address#"
> query="USERS"
> cc="#USERS.SB_USER_EMAIL_ADDRESS#"
> from="#varables.default_email_address#"
> subject="#form.Subject#">
>
> help
>
>
>
>
> >
>


-- 
If you are not living on the edge,
You are taking up too much space.

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[cfaussie] Re: CFMAIL sending to multiple addresses through the query

[Andrew Scott]

Very bad idea...

First of all you only have a certain amount that this field can cope with,
secondly it can be seen by some antispam software as being spam.

The only exception to this rule, is if you have a workflow for keeping
people in the loop in intranet applications. But for general mail outs, wrap
the cfloop query around the cfmail tag.

Andrew Scott
Senior Coldfusion Developer
Aegeon Pty. Ltd.
www.aegeon.com.au
Phone: +613  8676 4223
Mobile: 0404 998 273



-Original Message-
From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of blueyoda
Sent: Thursday, 31 May 2007 12:46 PM
To: cfaussie
Subject: [cfaussie] CFMAIL sending to multiple addresses through the query


Does anyone know how to send 1 email through cfmail with multiple
addresses in the cc field.
I have a query named USERS and need to cc all the users from this
table but I'm getting 1 email to each CCed user and multiple emails to
the To address.



help




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[cfaussie] Re: CFMAIL sending to multiple addresses through the query

[blueyoda]

Thanks all that did the trick :)


On May 31, 1:19 pm, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> On Thu, May 31, 2007 at 12:54:14PM +1000, Dale Fraser wrote:
> > Just build a list of email addresses first.
>
> > Ie
>
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
>
> >  >to="#emailTo#"
>
> or:
>
> 
>
> Of course this is exposing everyone's mail address to everyone
> on the list. It'd be better to do:
>
>  bcc="#valueList(users.email,";")#"  ... >
>
> Paul Haddon
> Technical Services Manager
> Formstar Print Technologies


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[cfaussie] Re: Coldfuson is dead - why did no one tell me

[Barry Beattie]

CAVAET to bystanders:

these points relate back to 2003 - ancient history in IT and business
terms. Somewhere around there Macromedia Australia was going through
some "restructuring" which in part allowed Rocketboots and other
opportunities to come into being with many positive flow-on effects to
follow in this part of the industry. To be perfectly clear, Robin (and
even Macromedia Australia) were bystanders carried along with the tide
 - and with the points I'm wanting to raise here I don't think anyone
in Australia were in a position to fix.


> > Macromedia (at the time) did not lift a finger in support. You were
> > working for them at the time.
>
> I seem to remember a lot of email correspondence, some site visits
> and the like.

To be fair to you, Robin, this Macromedia thing was new to me. Unlike
the rest of my fellow trainers, I didn't have contact with Flash,
director, Authorware, 3DSMax, etc. I had been drinking the Microsoft
cool-aid for a looong time before that and CF6/6.1 was the first year
Coldfusion was brought out from QANTM's intranet "pidgeon-holing" and
into the classroom. I probably didn't know who you were or what role
you could play.

>
> > giving licences away to an educational institution would have reaped
> > benefits to this day and beyond.
>
> Do you mean (a) giving some educational licenses to QANTM for it's
> own use, or (b) giving away commercial licenses to each student?

neither

paying for licenses for intranet use is perfectly understandable. That
part is a business. A bit like (then) future employers of mine who use
CF for their turnkey school admin software.

and no, not giving full copies to students. They can use their dev
copies just like we all do now.

What I'm talking about could be classified as "teaching aids".

CF6 was the first version that had to have it's DSN's defined by the CF admin.

Now, we tried to get around that. you may remermber my cfaussie posts
(and help from Spike) to try and get the student development
environment as close to what I had used to teach ASP in the years
before (both at QANTM and also a government TAFE).

"But the students can use developer versions" you say?

Yes, for that lesson. They can set up their DSN on their local
machine, point it to their database and away they go until the
lesson ends and they have to move classrooms/labs.

that one thing - defining DSN's -  destroyed the effectiveness of
using developer versions; made then next to useless.

Unlike ASP or earlier versions of CF, students could no have their
working website files (including a little MSAccess database) on a
floppy and just drop it into "C: \ inetpub \ wwwroot" and it would
just work. it was now a workflow management mess.

what's the solution? setting up central CF servers so the students
used dreamweaver on their workstations to RDS to their server space.
They could keep going no matter what classroom.

(and DW ultradev RDS was really flakey then too).

So, 120 students and their personal websites and team projects. That
would have to be Enterprise versions, and more than one.

> In the case of (a) the education price of CF is already very low and
> I don't see how that would have affected the student's future career
> path - if you mean that it would have affected your management's
> decision on whether or not to continue with CF, that would be a
> strange criteria, to dump a course with 120 students for the sake of
> a few hundred dollars.

I'll deal with the future career path in a second, but please
understand, your dealing with discounted price Vs $0.00. how can you
compete with that?

 if you mean that it would have affected your management's
> decision on whether or not to continue with CF, that would be a
> strange criteria, to dump a course with 120 students for the sake of
> a few hundred dollars.

I mean exactly that. You could still reach the teaching outcomes with
PHP instead of CF. From a management's perspective, what's the
difference except for a price tag? especially when you're dealing with
multiple enterprise licenses. ColdFusion owed us nothing, except as a
teaching aid. Should we pay for the privilege of evangelizing the
platform/ exposing hundreds of students to it?


Here's where the short-sightedness of "a sale is a sale" comes back to bite:

one single bright, enthusiastic, student (G'day Rob.S) single handedly
introduced his employers (now in Sydney) to buy into CF when they were
almost about to go to PHP. That meant CF license sales.

one student out of 120 did that. Created sales from no-where, just
because I taught him Coldfusion. And that's only one that i know of.

Why do you think that Microsoft gives away their product to
educational institutions? they fully realise it's a fertile "breeding
ground" for the future.


> Is there any amount of money or support from Macromedia that would
> have stopped that from happening?

I think that is clear. Yes. Free Enterprise licenses to educational
institution if used as a teachi

[cfaussie] Re: CFMAIL sending to multiple addresses through the query

[phaddon]

On Thu, May 31, 2007 at 12:54:14PM +1000, Dale Fraser wrote:

> Just build a list of email addresses first.
> 
> Ie
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>to="#emailTo#"
> 

or:



Of course this is exposing everyone's mail address to everyone
on the list. It'd be better to do:




Paul Haddon
Technical Services Manager
Formstar Print Technologies


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[cfaussie] Re: Coldfuson is dead - why did no one tell me

[Dale Fraser]

Chris,

That is the standard response I get. But a lot of companies run their own
servers. And it's the mentality of that new developer that Justin is talking
about, it's in their mind that this isn't a free product, thus they pick a
free one to learn.

Regards
Dale Fraser

http://dalefraser.blogspot.com


-Original Message-
From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Chris Velevitch
Sent: Thursday, 31 May 2007 1:13 PM
To: cfaussie@googlegroups.com
Subject: [cfaussie] Re: Coldfuson is dead - why did no one tell me


The developer edition is free!

There are a number of hosting companies that support CF so the
deployment costs are low. If fact using a hosting company is the
better option for small organisations because there's not need to buy
the hardware, software and internet connection and someone to manage
the system. Ten's thousand versus a couple of hundred's of dollars to
setup. Similarly for the running costs.

On 5/31/07, Justin Carter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> On May 31, 10:10 am, Robin Hilliard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Do you mean (a) giving some educational licenses to QANTM for it's
> > own use, or (b) giving away commercial licenses to each student?
> >
> > In the case of (b) you would be asking for almost $200,000 worth of
> > software.
> >
> > So the student thought process goes something like "sure I just spent
> > several months learning ColdFusion, but the vendor didn't give me a
> > free commercial license so I won't use it"?
>
> One thing that students or younger developers see - before they even
> bother to learn ColdFusion - *is* the dollar signs. It's hard to make
> the decision to invest hours and hours in learning and using a
> technology which you perceive to be unaffordable or out of reach,
> particularly when you see "free" competing platforms such as .NET,
> Java, PHP, Ruby, etc. I've been in that position, and I didn't choose
> ColdFusion (not until a number of years later). Price is a barrier to
> adoption.
>
> Just my 2c anyway.
>
> Cheers.
>
> --
> Justin
> http://www.madfellas.com/blog
>
>
> >
>


-- 
Chris Velevitch
Manager - Sydney Flash Platform Developers Group
m: 0415 469 095
www.flashdev.org.au





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[cfaussie] Re: Coldfuson is dead - why did no one tell me

[Haikal Saadh]

The dev edition is free, so students could use that.

I think it's more a case of it's easy to go from something like, say, 
java to cf, but going the other way around is not always easy. IMHO it's 
better to learn something like Java, with all it's 
intricacies/quirks/capabilities and then pick up CF later (in the 
workforce). Or do parallel CF/Java development, so you have an 
appreciation of what's out there.



Dale Fraser wrote:
> Justin,
>
> You are 100% right, been trying to get that point across, not sure it's
> working. A Free version of Coldfusion will fix this issue, and the rest of
> us will still pay for better versions.
>
> Regards
> Dale Fraser
>
> http://dalefraser.blogspot.com
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
> Of Justin Carter
> Sent: Thursday, 31 May 2007 1:02 PM
> To: cfaussie
> Subject: [cfaussie] Re: Coldfuson is dead - why did no one tell me
>
>
> On May 31, 10:10 am, Robin Hilliard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>   
>> Do you mean (a) giving some educational licenses to QANTM for it's  
>> own use, or (b) giving away commercial licenses to each student?
>>
>> In the case of (b) you would be asking for almost $200,000 worth of  
>> software.
>>
>> So the student thought process goes something like "sure I just spent  
>> several months learning ColdFusion, but the vendor didn't give me a  
>> free commercial license so I won't use it"?
>> 
>
> One thing that students or younger developers see - before they even
> bother to learn ColdFusion - *is* the dollar signs. It's hard to make
> the decision to invest hours and hours in learning and using a
> technology which you perceive to be unaffordable or out of reach,
> particularly when you see "free" competing platforms such as .NET,
> Java, PHP, Ruby, etc. I've been in that position, and I didn't choose
> ColdFusion (not until a number of years later). Price is a barrier to
> adoption.
>
> Just my 2c anyway.
>
> Cheers.
>
> --
> Justin
> http://www.madfellas.com/blog
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >
>
>   


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[cfaussie] Re: Coldfuson is dead - why did no one tell me

[Chris Velevitch]

The developer edition is free!

There are a number of hosting companies that support CF so the
deployment costs are low. If fact using a hosting company is the
better option for small organisations because there's not need to buy
the hardware, software and internet connection and someone to manage
the system. Ten's thousand versus a couple of hundred's of dollars to
setup. Similarly for the running costs.

On 5/31/07, Justin Carter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> On May 31, 10:10 am, Robin Hilliard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Do you mean (a) giving some educational licenses to QANTM for it's
> > own use, or (b) giving away commercial licenses to each student?
> >
> > In the case of (b) you would be asking for almost $200,000 worth of
> > software.
> >
> > So the student thought process goes something like "sure I just spent
> > several months learning ColdFusion, but the vendor didn't give me a
> > free commercial license so I won't use it"?
>
> One thing that students or younger developers see - before they even
> bother to learn ColdFusion - *is* the dollar signs. It's hard to make
> the decision to invest hours and hours in learning and using a
> technology which you perceive to be unaffordable or out of reach,
> particularly when you see "free" competing platforms such as .NET,
> Java, PHP, Ruby, etc. I've been in that position, and I didn't choose
> ColdFusion (not until a number of years later). Price is a barrier to
> adoption.
>
> Just my 2c anyway.
>
> Cheers.
>
> --
> Justin
> http://www.madfellas.com/blog
>
>
> >
>


-- 
Chris Velevitch
Manager - Sydney Flash Platform Developers Group
m: 0415 469 095
www.flashdev.org.au

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[cfaussie] Re: Coldfuson is dead - why did no one tell me

[Dale Fraser]

Justin,

You are 100% right, been trying to get that point across, not sure it's
working. A Free version of Coldfusion will fix this issue, and the rest of
us will still pay for better versions.

Regards
Dale Fraser

http://dalefraser.blogspot.com


-Original Message-
From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Justin Carter
Sent: Thursday, 31 May 2007 1:02 PM
To: cfaussie
Subject: [cfaussie] Re: Coldfuson is dead - why did no one tell me


On May 31, 10:10 am, Robin Hilliard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Do you mean (a) giving some educational licenses to QANTM for it's  
> own use, or (b) giving away commercial licenses to each student?
>
> In the case of (b) you would be asking for almost $200,000 worth of  
> software.
>
> So the student thought process goes something like "sure I just spent  
> several months learning ColdFusion, but the vendor didn't give me a  
> free commercial license so I won't use it"?

One thing that students or younger developers see - before they even
bother to learn ColdFusion - *is* the dollar signs. It's hard to make
the decision to invest hours and hours in learning and using a
technology which you perceive to be unaffordable or out of reach,
particularly when you see "free" competing platforms such as .NET,
Java, PHP, Ruby, etc. I've been in that position, and I didn't choose
ColdFusion (not until a number of years later). Price is a barrier to
adoption.

Just my 2c anyway.

Cheers.

--
Justin
http://www.madfellas.com/blog






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[cfaussie] Re: ColdFusion hurts ASP & Java

[Dale Fraser]

Ray,

I agree 100%, I do read the articles, research and play with lots of
technologies and look at the good and bad with them all. My point was
related to the comments on the CF8 release, I don't bother however taking
the time or effort to comment and bag the other products.

For anyone interested, heaps of negative comments from non CF people, why
does CF irk them so much, could it be that we are "Hurting them" :)

http://digg.com/programming/Adobe_releases_public_release_candidate_of_ColdF
usion_8_AKA_Scorpio

Regards
Dale Fraser

http://dalefraser.blogspot.com


-Original Message-
From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Raymond Camden
Sent: Thursday, 31 May 2007 12:58 PM
To: cfaussie@googlegroups.com
Subject: [cfaussie] Re: ColdFusion hurts ASP & Java


On 5/30/07, Dale Fraser <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> It is evident to me that while Adobe need to better market ColdFusion than
> was done by Macromedia, Java and ASP people are quick to jump in with the
> it's crap, I thought it was dead type of comments. Funny that these people
> are even bothering to read such ColdFusion articles, what are they looking
> for if they have moved on. I know I'm not reading any Dig articles on ASP
or
> Java releases.


Dale, this is an OFF TOPIC response. Please don't think I ignored the
rest. I wanted to "pick" on you a bit about that last line. I hope you
really don't ignore those articles. As a developer, I find that by
looking at other languages and how they sol eproblems, it gives me
ideas for my own development as well. Shoot - I'd kill for a "web
development" magazine that focused on _all_ the major languages, even
the dreaded ASP. I just enjoy looking at code.

And sometimes...

sometimes

PHP/ASP/Etc - actually do things better than CF does.

I know - heresy. ;)

I think a good example of this the cache support in Dot Net. Now I am
NOT a Dot Net person, so I may get the particulars wrong, but if I
remember right, Dot Net has a pretty darn fancy cache scope. It makes
our cfcache tag look pretty puny. Id love to see that rolled into CF.
-- 
===
Raymond Camden, Camden Media

Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Blog  : ray.camdenfamily.com
AOL IM : cfjedimaster





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[cfaussie] Re: ColdFusion hurts ASP & Java

[Dale Fraser]

Nope,

The pure bliss of cfc's

I know there are good ones out there, but which one to use, will it be
supported long term. Who writes it, will it work under CF8 etc.

Too many questions, I know 100% that our application will run perfectly on
CF8 and not require support from anyone other than Adobe.

I do however like to look at frameworks, would have love to have gone to
cfobjective. And perhaps in the future if something compelling comes along,
who knows.

Regards
Dale Fraser

http://dalefraser.blogspot.com


-Original Message-
From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Mark Mandel
Sent: Thursday, 31 May 2007 12:55 PM
To: cfaussie@googlegroups.com
Subject: [cfaussie] Re: ColdFusion hurts ASP & Java


Dale -

You don't use a framework? nothing at all?

Mark

On 5/31/07, Dale Fraser <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> While ASP & Java might get more press and dollars thrown at them.
ColdFusion
> is really hurting these technologies, how so you might say. It hurts them
in
> terms of productivity. Java, ASP & even PHP are just hard work, so hard in
> fact that you need to either spend a lot of time or employ a framework
just
> to get you almost equivalent to ColdFusion.
>
> It is evident to me that while Adobe need to better market ColdFusion than
> was done by Macromedia, Java and ASP people are quick to jump in with the
> it's crap, I thought it was dead type of comments. Funny that these people
> are even bothering to read such ColdFusion articles, what are they looking
> for if they have moved on. I know I'm not reading any Dig articles on ASP
or
> Java releases.
>
> They are also happy to jump in with the we moved here and did this and
it's
> been good.
>
> But here is my story, in 2001 I was a CTO in a division of a large public
> company. Decided to rewrite a 2.6 million ASP development in ColdFusion.
> Straight away people were on my back, is that the right decision,
ColdFusion
> is dying. ASP is much better, your making a mistake. Hang on, that's 6
years
> ago, surely the life support must have been turned off by now and they
would
> have stopped releasing new versions.
>
> More recently joined another public company as CTO and replaced a large
and
> complex Java application again with ColdFusion.
>
> Why would I do this, is it because I don't understand ASP or Java, not at
> all, have written lots of Java and ASP stuff, have recently studied at uni
> using PHP and Java, HD in every subject. The reason is that they are just
> hard work, sure Java might have a good new framework, but that's part of
the
> problem. Had a team of Java developers that were always chasing a moving
> target and getting nothing done.
>
> What do I mean my moving target, well they had a Java application that
used
> various frameworks and libraries, but there was always a new one that they
> wanted to use or play with, we want to try hibernate, we want to use JSF.
> All this costs development time and money. Even the developers couldn't
> agree on what frameworks to use.
>
> So when I introduced ColdFusion, they all got scared, telling the business
> that I was crazy, I didn't know what I was doing and that I was making the
> wrong decision. But for some reason the business trusted me (The new guy)
> and not the rest of the team, perhaps I was very convincing when I pitched
> the idea of starting again to the board.
>
> Now pitching to rewrite large applications, is not an easy pitch, it's not
> an easy or inexpensive process either. But to me it's simple, I've done
this
> before, it works and the business will see the benefits.
>
> So after spending the past 2 years rewriting all the applications (not
> personally) in ColdFusion and building a 100% new development team, what
is
> the result? A very good one, the functionality is superb, the development
> time is very low, there are less development staff required. And
ultimately
> the business is happy.
>
> We use 99.9% ColdFusion, there is one Encryption JAR that we wrote. But
> other than that it's all CF, pure OO CFC's with no framework, which I
choose
> not to use due to the issues I've explained with Java framework moving
> targets.
>
> In summary, I use ColdFusion because it works, it's easy and it's good for
> the business. I look forward to ColdFusion 8 and future versions, Adobe
and
> the CF team have done a great job on this release and CF is now even
further
> ahead of the competition.
>
> Regards
> Dale Fraser
>
> http://dalefraser.blogspot.com
>
>
>
>
>
> >
>


-- 
E: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
W: www.compoundtheory.com





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[cfaussie] Re: Coldfuson is dead - why did no one tell me

[Justin Carter]

On May 31, 10:10 am, Robin Hilliard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Do you mean (a) giving some educational licenses to QANTM for it's  
> own use, or (b) giving away commercial licenses to each student?
>
> In the case of (b) you would be asking for almost $200,000 worth of  
> software.
>
> So the student thought process goes something like "sure I just spent  
> several months learning ColdFusion, but the vendor didn't give me a  
> free commercial license so I won't use it"?

One thing that students or younger developers see - before they even
bother to learn ColdFusion - *is* the dollar signs. It's hard to make
the decision to invest hours and hours in learning and using a
technology which you perceive to be unaffordable or out of reach,
particularly when you see "free" competing platforms such as .NET,
Java, PHP, Ruby, etc. I've been in that position, and I didn't choose
ColdFusion (not until a number of years later). Price is a barrier to
adoption.

Just my 2c anyway.

Cheers.

--
Justin
http://www.madfellas.com/blog


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[cfaussie] Re: ColdFusion hurts ASP & Java

[Raymond Camden]

On 5/30/07, Dale Fraser <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> It is evident to me that while Adobe need to better market ColdFusion than
> was done by Macromedia, Java and ASP people are quick to jump in with the
> it's crap, I thought it was dead type of comments. Funny that these people
> are even bothering to read such ColdFusion articles, what are they looking
> for if they have moved on. I know I'm not reading any Dig articles on ASP or
> Java releases.


Dale, this is an OFF TOPIC response. Please don't think I ignored the
rest. I wanted to "pick" on you a bit about that last line. I hope you
really don't ignore those articles. As a developer, I find that by
looking at other languages and how they sol eproblems, it gives me
ideas for my own development as well. Shoot - I'd kill for a "web
development" magazine that focused on _all_ the major languages, even
the dreaded ASP. I just enjoy looking at code.

And sometimes...

sometimes

PHP/ASP/Etc - actually do things better than CF does.

I know - heresy. ;)

I think a good example of this the cache support in Dot Net. Now I am
NOT a Dot Net person, so I may get the particulars wrong, but if I
remember right, Dot Net has a pretty darn fancy cache scope. It makes
our cfcache tag look pretty puny. Id love to see that rolled into CF.
-- 
===
Raymond Camden, Camden Media

Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Blog  : ray.camdenfamily.com
AOL IM : cfjedimaster

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[cfaussie] Re: ColdFusion hurts ASP & Java

[Mark Mandel]

Dale -

You don't use a framework? nothing at all?

Mark

On 5/31/07, Dale Fraser <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> While ASP & Java might get more press and dollars thrown at them. ColdFusion
> is really hurting these technologies, how so you might say. It hurts them in
> terms of productivity. Java, ASP & even PHP are just hard work, so hard in
> fact that you need to either spend a lot of time or employ a framework just
> to get you almost equivalent to ColdFusion.
>
> It is evident to me that while Adobe need to better market ColdFusion than
> was done by Macromedia, Java and ASP people are quick to jump in with the
> it's crap, I thought it was dead type of comments. Funny that these people
> are even bothering to read such ColdFusion articles, what are they looking
> for if they have moved on. I know I'm not reading any Dig articles on ASP or
> Java releases.
>
> They are also happy to jump in with the we moved here and did this and it's
> been good.
>
> But here is my story, in 2001 I was a CTO in a division of a large public
> company. Decided to rewrite a 2.6 million ASP development in ColdFusion.
> Straight away people were on my back, is that the right decision, ColdFusion
> is dying. ASP is much better, your making a mistake. Hang on, that's 6 years
> ago, surely the life support must have been turned off by now and they would
> have stopped releasing new versions.
>
> More recently joined another public company as CTO and replaced a large and
> complex Java application again with ColdFusion.
>
> Why would I do this, is it because I don't understand ASP or Java, not at
> all, have written lots of Java and ASP stuff, have recently studied at uni
> using PHP and Java, HD in every subject. The reason is that they are just
> hard work, sure Java might have a good new framework, but that's part of the
> problem. Had a team of Java developers that were always chasing a moving
> target and getting nothing done.
>
> What do I mean my moving target, well they had a Java application that used
> various frameworks and libraries, but there was always a new one that they
> wanted to use or play with, we want to try hibernate, we want to use JSF.
> All this costs development time and money. Even the developers couldn't
> agree on what frameworks to use.
>
> So when I introduced ColdFusion, they all got scared, telling the business
> that I was crazy, I didn't know what I was doing and that I was making the
> wrong decision. But for some reason the business trusted me (The new guy)
> and not the rest of the team, perhaps I was very convincing when I pitched
> the idea of starting again to the board.
>
> Now pitching to rewrite large applications, is not an easy pitch, it's not
> an easy or inexpensive process either. But to me it's simple, I've done this
> before, it works and the business will see the benefits.
>
> So after spending the past 2 years rewriting all the applications (not
> personally) in ColdFusion and building a 100% new development team, what is
> the result? A very good one, the functionality is superb, the development
> time is very low, there are less development staff required. And ultimately
> the business is happy.
>
> We use 99.9% ColdFusion, there is one Encryption JAR that we wrote. But
> other than that it's all CF, pure OO CFC's with no framework, which I choose
> not to use due to the issues I've explained with Java framework moving
> targets.
>
> In summary, I use ColdFusion because it works, it's easy and it's good for
> the business. I look forward to ColdFusion 8 and future versions, Adobe and
> the CF team have done a great job on this release and CF is now even further
> ahead of the competition.
>
> Regards
> Dale Fraser
>
> http://dalefraser.blogspot.com
>
>
>
>
>
> >
>


-- 
E: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
W: www.compoundtheory.com

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[cfaussie] Re: CFMAIL sending to multiple addresses through the query

[Dale Fraser]

Just build a list of email addresses first.

Ie






http://dalefraser.blogspot.com


-Original Message-
From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of blueyoda
Sent: Thursday, 31 May 2007 12:46 PM
To: cfaussie
Subject: [cfaussie] CFMAIL sending to multiple addresses through the query


Does anyone know how to send 1 email through cfmail with multiple
addresses in the cc field.
I have a query named USERS and need to cc all the users from this
table but I'm getting 1 email to each CCed user and multiple emails to
the To address.



help






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[cfaussie] ColdFusion hurts ASP & Java

[Dale Fraser]

While ASP & Java might get more press and dollars thrown at them. ColdFusion
is really hurting these technologies, how so you might say. It hurts them in
terms of productivity. Java, ASP & even PHP are just hard work, so hard in
fact that you need to either spend a lot of time or employ a framework just
to get you almost equivalent to ColdFusion.

It is evident to me that while Adobe need to better market ColdFusion than
was done by Macromedia, Java and ASP people are quick to jump in with the
it's crap, I thought it was dead type of comments. Funny that these people
are even bothering to read such ColdFusion articles, what are they looking
for if they have moved on. I know I'm not reading any Dig articles on ASP or
Java releases.

They are also happy to jump in with the we moved here and did this and it's
been good.

But here is my story, in 2001 I was a CTO in a division of a large public
company. Decided to rewrite a 2.6 million ASP development in ColdFusion.
Straight away people were on my back, is that the right decision, ColdFusion
is dying. ASP is much better, your making a mistake. Hang on, that's 6 years
ago, surely the life support must have been turned off by now and they would
have stopped releasing new versions.

More recently joined another public company as CTO and replaced a large and
complex Java application again with ColdFusion.

Why would I do this, is it because I don't understand ASP or Java, not at
all, have written lots of Java and ASP stuff, have recently studied at uni
using PHP and Java, HD in every subject. The reason is that they are just
hard work, sure Java might have a good new framework, but that's part of the
problem. Had a team of Java developers that were always chasing a moving
target and getting nothing done.

What do I mean my moving target, well they had a Java application that used
various frameworks and libraries, but there was always a new one that they
wanted to use or play with, we want to try hibernate, we want to use JSF.
All this costs development time and money. Even the developers couldn't
agree on what frameworks to use.

So when I introduced ColdFusion, they all got scared, telling the business
that I was crazy, I didn't know what I was doing and that I was making the
wrong decision. But for some reason the business trusted me (The new guy)
and not the rest of the team, perhaps I was very convincing when I pitched
the idea of starting again to the board.

Now pitching to rewrite large applications, is not an easy pitch, it's not
an easy or inexpensive process either. But to me it's simple, I've done this
before, it works and the business will see the benefits.

So after spending the past 2 years rewriting all the applications (not
personally) in ColdFusion and building a 100% new development team, what is
the result? A very good one, the functionality is superb, the development
time is very low, there are less development staff required. And ultimately
the business is happy.

We use 99.9% ColdFusion, there is one Encryption JAR that we wrote. But
other than that it's all CF, pure OO CFC's with no framework, which I choose
not to use due to the issues I've explained with Java framework moving
targets.

In summary, I use ColdFusion because it works, it's easy and it's good for
the business. I look forward to ColdFusion 8 and future versions, Adobe and
the CF team have done a great job on this release and CF is now even further
ahead of the competition.

Regards
Dale Fraser

http://dalefraser.blogspot.com





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[cfaussie] CFMAIL sending to multiple addresses through the query

[blueyoda]

Does anyone know how to send 1 email through cfmail with multiple
addresses in the cc field.
I have a query named USERS and need to cc all the users from this
table but I'm getting 1 email to each CCed user and multiple emails to
the To address.



help


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[cfaussie] Re: how to alter senders buddy when sending IM via XMPP gateway

[Robin Hilliard]

Hi Duncan,

You should be able to change it in line 7 of the config file:

WEB-INF/cfusion/gateway/config/xmpp.cfg

Robin

__

Robin Hilliard
Director - RocketBoots Pty Ltd
Consulting . Recruitment . Software Licensing . Training
http://www.rocketboots.com.au

For schedule/availability call Pamela Higgins:
w+61 7 5451 0362
m+61 419 677 151
f+61 3 9923 6261
e[EMAIL PROTECTED]

or Direct:
m+61 418 414 341
e[EMAIL PROTECTED]


On 28/05/2007, at 3:39 PM, Duncan wrote:

>
> All,
>
> Is there a way to send an IM from a cf page via the cf event gateway
> with a buddy id of something other than the cf gateway buddy id?
>
> For example I want our registered and logged in users to be able to IM
> the sales team online.
>
> Currently this works ok, but the sales person always sees a buddy of
> ColdFusion. The first message tells them who it was, but then after a
> few messages its not clear any more.
>
> So instead of the message buddyid saying coldfusion, can I get it to
> say the logged in users name?  This doesn't appear to be possible with
> sendGatewayMessage() but must be possible some other way as imified
> and so forth do this.
>
> Thanks!
>
> --
> Duncan I Loxton
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
> 

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[cfaussie] OT: About Spring

[Robin Hilliard]

On 31/05/2007, at 11:19 AM, Haikal Saadh wrote:
> And yes, this is how Spring does it.

Lots of mention of Spring on the list over the last few days, thought  
I'd draw your attention to an excerpt from Rod Johnson's (creator of  
Spring) J2EE book - this book is about Java, but this chapter talks  
more generally about OO programming and is one of the more sensible  
things I've ever read on an IT topic:

http://www.theserverside.com/tt/articles/article.tss? 
l=RodJohnsonInterview

For the patriotically inclined, it may please you to know that Rod is  
Australian, a graduate of Sydney University's Computer Science  
Faculty :-)

Robin

__

Robin Hilliard
Director - RocketBoots Pty Ltd
Consulting . Recruitment . Software Licensing . Training
http://www.rocketboots.com.au
m+61 418 414 341
e[EMAIL PROTECTED]




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[cfaussie] Web on the Piste Agenda

[Grant Straker]

Hi All,

A quick update on the Web on the Piste conference. We've put up the
draft agenda (link below) and sessions for those of you looking to
come along. It's still in "draft" as we still finalizing who is
speaking on what and which speakers sponsors are sending etc. We have
some great speakers coming and we are basically defining the
sessions / topics based on attendee input and then asking speakers to
pick topics they can deliver on. The agenda obviously points towards
the main themes of the topics.

The theme of the conference is RIA tehcnologies so we have signed up
Microsoft as well as Adobe as sponsors and are chasing Sun with their
JavaFX (especially in the mobile space) technology as well. The upshot
being that you can come to the conference and get sessions that inform
and up skill on the various RIA server and client technologies to
allow you to make informed decisions on  where they fit in your
business / technical projects. We feel that having a multi-vendor show
will be far more useful and fits in nicely with what Webdu offers in
terms of an Adobe driven event.

There is obviously an upside to also getting along portions of the
MS .Net community and showing them the light in terms of what the
Adobe product set can offer (I"m sure the reverse applies in the MS
camp) and may the best man(person if I'm being PC about it) win!

Due to us taking a bit of time to organise ourselves around the
sessions we're extending the early bird rates until the end of June
but do book early as we do have limited spaces and have had a steady
stream of sign ups (I'm a saleman but that's actually true;-) ).

Apparently it's meant to be one of the best ski seasons on record this
year so the option of hard,thin ice in the Blue Mountains or Free
flowing powder in the Souther Alps may assist with the decision (told
you I was a salesman)!


http://www.webonthepiste.com/webonthepiste/agenda/agenda_home.cfm


Cheers

Grant

http://www.webonthepiste.com
Sponsored by
www.straker.co.nz
www.gruden.com.au
www.adobe.com
www.microsoft.com


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[cfaussie] Re: cfc - cfargument best practice

[Haikal Saadh]

I'd take the Validator one step further and have it identify which 
specific fields are missing. That will have the added side effect of 
making it easier to report errors to the view layer.

(And yes, this is how Spring does it. Check out the Validator interface 
in the javadocs. I'd link, but our external net access is down).



Robin Hilliard wrote:
> Hi Adam,
>
> I'd go with the bean or structure option - Dale has a valid point  
> about argument checking but the problem is that every time your  
> database columns change you're also going to have to modify the  
> signature of your function (and any other functions handling this  
> data) to match.
>
> Passing a structure will solve this. If validation is important build  
> it into your bean property setters or create a separate validator  
> class or function (i.e. a class with a validate(struct or bean) :  
> boolean method) you and then the validation logic you write can be  
> reused wherever you deal with data from this table, not just when you  
> call this specific function.
>
> If you want a name for this idea, it's called the "Value Object" or  
> "Data Transfer Object" design pattern - although as patterns go the  
> definition is starting to get a little muddy.
>
> Cheers,
> Robin
>
>   


-- 
Haikal Saadh
Applications Programmer
ICT Resources, TALSS
QUT Kelvin Grove


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[cfaussie] Re: CF Argument issues

[Robin Hilliard]

Hi All,

Coming in late, but though I might be able to help.

Rony, from your post I guess we're talking about a function that is  
shared across all your sites.  You want the function to be able to  
take a "Test" class from any of the sites as an argument, but you  
can't dynamically change the argument type.

What you need to do is make a base class called (say) AbstractTest in  
a "core" package shared by all applications:

com
 L ronycorp
L core
   L AbstractTest.cfc   

...then have the Test component in each application extend AbstractTest:

com
 L ronycorp
L core
   L AbstractTest.cfc
L app1
   L App1Test.cfc
L app2
   L App2Test.cfc
  ...
L appN
   L AppNTest.cfc


In AppNTest.cfc:



With this you can now rewrite your function without a dynamic class  
name:

http://www.rocketboots.com.au

For schedule/availability call Pamela Higgins:
w+61 7 5451 0362
m+61 419 677 151
f+61 3 9923 6261
e[EMAIL PROTECTED]

or Direct:
m+61 418 414 341
e[EMAIL PROTECTED]


On 25/05/2007, at 6:01 PM, Rony wrote:

>
> Hey Andrew,
>
> Yes it does - IN MY APPLICATION.
>
> Our site has been designed so that the SAME name is used for the app
> name, app folder, and the cf mapping.
>
> So if the app name is "cfaussie" then the mapping would be called
> "cfaussie" and so would the folder that stores all the files.
>
> But my question was if the MAIN name changes to "cfaussie_local" this
> would change the appname, cf mapping and the actual folder name.
>
> This is why i use the app name in the type.Obs this doesn't work.
>
> Sorry for any confusion.
>
> I was hoping for other way to do this...
>
> Thanks for your assistance,
>
> Much appreciated.
>
> On May 25, 4:34 pm, Andrew Scott <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> No it doesn't...
>>
>> Tell you why, the applicationname is relevant to the application  
>> being run.
>> Which means that if you  want to make this global to other  
>> applications you
>> can't do that. Well you can, but CF won't allow it, so mappings  
>> are the only
>> way to go or the root of the application.
>>
>> If it is in the root of the application then you do not need  
>> anything other
>> than com.mystuff.package.component.
>>
>> But doing that will make maintenance a nightmare if you use it in  
>> more than
>> application. So the best thing is to take it outside of the  
>> application and
>> create a mapping to it.
>>
>> Andrew Scott
>> Senior Coldfusion Developer
>> Aegeon Pty. Ltd.www.aegeon.com.au
>> Phone: +613  8676 4223
>> Mobile: 0404 998 273
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]  
>> On Behalf
>>
>> Of Rony
>> Sent: Friday, 25 May 2007 4:30 PM
>> To: cfaussie
>> Subject: [cfaussie] Re: CF Argument issues
>>
>> Hi Dale,
>>
>> The reason why i have this is because the mapping name is the same
>> name as the application name and a fellow developer would like to be
>> able to change the application name and create a new mapping with the
>> app name, so i cannot hard code the app name when calling a
>> component.
>>
>> hope this makes sense,
>
>
> 

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[cfaussie] Re: cfc - cfargument best practice

[Robin Hilliard]

Hi Adam,

I'd go with the bean or structure option - Dale has a valid point  
about argument checking but the problem is that every time your  
database columns change you're also going to have to modify the  
signature of your function (and any other functions handling this  
data) to match.

Passing a structure will solve this. If validation is important build  
it into your bean property setters or create a separate validator  
class or function (i.e. a class with a validate(struct or bean) :  
boolean method) you and then the validation logic you write can be  
reused wherever you deal with data from this table, not just when you  
call this specific function.

If you want a name for this idea, it's called the "Value Object" or  
"Data Transfer Object" design pattern - although as patterns go the  
definition is starting to get a little muddy.

Cheers,
Robin


__

Robin Hilliard
Director - RocketBoots Pty Ltd
Consulting . Recruitment . Software Licensing . Training
http://www.rocketboots.com.au

For schedule/availability call Pamela Higgins:
w+61 7 5451 0362
m+61 419 677 151
f+61 3 9923 6261
e[EMAIL PROTECTED]

or Direct:
m+61 418 414 341
e[EMAIL PROTECTED]


On 29/05/2007, at 10:53 AM, Adam Chapman wrote:

>
> Hi All,
>
> I have the need to create a cfc method which will update a large  
> number
> of db fields.. (50+). Here are 2 options I'm considering:
>
> 1. Accept an argument for each field
> 2. Accept a single argument containing a structure with all the data
> required for each field
>
> Thoughts?
>
> Cheers,
> Adam
>
>
> >


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[cfaussie] Re: Coldfuson is dead - why did no one tell me

[Robin Hilliard]

On 31/05/2007, at 12:26 AM, Gary Menzel wrote:
> However, in variance to Robin's statement, we have LOTS of new  
> development.

I could have expressed myself better there Gary :-)

Robin Hilliard



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[cfaussie] Re: Coldfuson is dead - why did no one tell me

[Robin Hilliard]

On 30/05/2007, at 11:42 PM, Barry Beattie wrote:
> Incorrect Robin
>
> I (with support from Sarah Barry who still works there) was teaching
> 120+ students Coldfusion as part of the CertIV of IT at QANTM College,
> Brisbane. ICAITB070A was the unit. Plus projects. For nearly 10
> months.

I didn't remember that it was a unit in a TAFE course - I stand  
corrected.

> Macromedia (at the time) did not lift a finger in support. You were
> working for them at the time.

I seem to remember a lot of email correspondence, some site visits  
and the like.

> giving licences away to an educational institution would have reaped
> benefits to this day and beyond.

Do you mean (a) giving some educational licenses to QANTM for it's  
own use, or (b) giving away commercial licenses to each student?

In the case of (a) the education price of CF is already very low and  
I don't see how that would have affected the student's future career  
path - if you mean that it would have affected your management's  
decision on whether or not to continue with CF, that would be a  
strange criteria, to dump a course with 120 students for the sake of  
a few hundred dollars.

In the case of (b) you would be asking for almost $200,000 worth of  
software.

> Next year, change of management and I was gone, CF was out and PHP was
> in because the "new broom" didn't want to spend one cent on server
> technology.

Is there any amount of money or support from Macromedia that would  
have stopped that from happening?

> considering the number of students going through the place, that's a
> lot of lost embassidors.

So the student thought process goes something like "sure I just spent  
several months learning ColdFusion, but the vendor didn't give me a  
free commercial license so I won't use it"?

Robin


__

Robin Hilliard
Director - RocketBoots Pty Ltd
Consulting . Recruitment . Software Licensing . Training
http://www.rocketboots.com.au
m+61 418 414 341
e[EMAIL PROTECTED]


On 30/05/2007, at 11:42 PM, Barry Beattie wrote:

>
> Incorrect Robin
>
> I (with support from Sarah Barry who still works there) was teaching
> 120+ students Coldfusion as part of the CertIV of IT at QANTM College,
> Brisbane. ICAITB070A was the unit. Plus projects. For nearly 10
> months.
>
> from simple CFLOOP thru to MVC archetecture with CFC's.
>
> of that, 2 people I know went on to be good coldFusion programmers
> (G'day Rob.S). possibly more.
>
>
> 120 students. Jesus! think of the viral marketing of that.
>
> Macromedia (at the time) did not lift a finger in support. You were
> working for them at the time.
>
> giving licences away to an educational institution would have reaped
> benefits to this day and beyond.
>
> Next year, change of management and I was gone, CF was out and PHP was
> in because the "new broom" didn't want to spend one cent on server
> technology.
>
> considering the number of students going through the place, that's a
> lot of lost embassidors.

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[cfaussie] Re: how to alter senders buddy when sending IM via XMPP gateway

[dsirr]

ah just read your initial use case for the first time properly! ;)

same concept applies though just swap "webpage" for "external users"

and make the example message:
"[EMAIL PROTECTED] says: do you sell Sinclair ZX
Spectrum?"

On May 31, 9:06 am, dsirr <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi Duncan, be interested to hear how you go with smack, but i think
> i've thought of a possible cf solution, based on all you want is
> seperate chat windows for 1..n concurrent sessions where n is a
> predefined limit:
>
> create a IM router bot on an eventgateway that is the only thing that
> interacts with the webpage, it keeps a track of user sessions etc
>
> create n IM bots (webuser1, webuser2, etc) on seperate eventgateways
> running the same logic cfc, these are the only things that interact
> with staff
>
> router bot ensures only one person per webuser bot per staff member
> so they are always on any particular webuser bot 1:1 and sends a
> message to the webuser bot with a "to" routing address at the start
> of the message telling it which staff user the message is for i.e.
> "[EMAIL PROTECTED]'s x product cost" then webusern bot acts
> like a simpler router just processing the addresses and sending
> between the staff and the main router bot.
>
> On May 28, 8:41 pm, Duncan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > Nice one David - i am doing this for some not-so-savvy users (read
> > sales & marketing) so this may be too easy to give a client the wrong
> > answer or get confused. I dont think its fool proof enough. Tommorrow
> > I will look at Smack.
>
> > On 5/28/07, dsirr <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > > Hi Duncan
>
> > > In regard to the multiple sessions bizzo, have a max sessions per
> > > user(your company user) then associate new IM sessions up to that max
> > > limit to your user in the app scope in an array or something and send
> > > the session name to your users client with an identifier so your user
> > > will see,
>
> > > "cfbot says: Duncan(1) - i can't use this simple web form" or "cfbot
> > > says: David(2) - the images aren't showing"
>
> > > then your user can target reply to any of the sessions with a prefix,
> > > i.e.
>
> > > "1: RTFM, it's really easy" or "2: blah" etc,
>
> > > then maybe have commands to release these sessions like "closeIM: 1"
> > > etc
>
> > > just some quick thoughts anyway
>
> > > cheers
> > > David
> > > labs.redbd.net
>
> > > On May 28, 4:45 pm, Duncan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > > Have you used 
> > > > Smackhttp://www.igniterealtime.org/projects/smack/index.jsp?ordo you
> > > > have another recommendation for a library?
>
> > > > On 5/28/07, Lucas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > > > > Hi Duncan,
> > > > > last time I looked this was near on impossible with the inbuilt 
> > > > > gateway as
> > > > > it pretends to be a user - I have gotten around this in the past by 
> > > > > using a
> > > > > Java XMPP implementation and using that to talk to the IM server.
>
> > > > > I know, this is not what you wanted to hear but it does work :)
>
> > > > > cheers,
> > > > > Lucas.
>
> > > > > On 5/28/07, Duncan < [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > > > > > All,
>
> > > > > > Is there a way to send an IM from a cf page via the cf event gateway
> > > > > > with a buddy id of something other than the cf gateway buddy id?
>
> > > > > > For example I want our registered and logged in users to be able to 
> > > > > > IM
> > > > > > the sales team online.
>
> > > > > > Currently this works ok, but the sales person always sees a buddy of
> > > > > > ColdFusion. The first message tells them who it was, but then after 
> > > > > > a
> > > > > > few messages its not clear any more.
>
> > > > > > So instead of the message buddyid saying coldfusion, can I get it to
> > > > > > say the logged in users name?  This doesn't appear to be possible 
> > > > > > with
> > > > > > sendGatewayMessage() but must be possible some other way as imified
> > > > > > and so forth do this.
>
> > > > > > Thanks!
>
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > Duncan I Loxton
> > > > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> > > > --
> > > > Duncan I Loxton
> > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> > --
> > Duncan I Loxton
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]


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[cfaussie] Re: Release Candidate? Where's the Public Beta?

[Mark Ireland]

I still havent worked out where the docs are. Its only cf7 docs in the big 
download. Lots of blank pages for new features in the downloadable docs.

Maybe I have to get the code hints working in cfEclipse to try the new 
stuff?

>From: Duncan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: cfaussie@googlegroups.com
>To: cfaussie@googlegroups.com
>Subject: [cfaussie] Re: Release Candidate? Where's the Public Beta?
>Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 08:58:04 +1000
>
>
>It certainly is out in public beta -
>
>http://digg.com/programming/Adobe_releases_public_release_candidate_of_ColdFusion_8_AKA_Scorpio
>
>On 5/30/07, Chris Velevitch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > Unless something changed since you last looked, going to Labs and
> > downloading the public beta is working for me.
> >
> >
> > Chris
> > --
> > Chris Velevitch
> > Manager - Sydney Flash Platform Developers Group
> > m: 0415 469 095
> > www.flashdev.org.au
> >
> > >
> >
>
>
>--
>Duncan I Loxton
>[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>>

_
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[cfaussie] Re: how to alter senders buddy when sending IM via XMPP gateway

[dsirr]

Hi Duncan, be interested to hear how you go with smack, but i think
i've thought of a possible cf solution, based on all you want is
seperate chat windows for 1..n concurrent sessions where n is a
predefined limit:

create a IM router bot on an eventgateway that is the only thing that
interacts with the webpage, it keeps a track of user sessions etc

create n IM bots (webuser1, webuser2, etc) on seperate eventgateways
running the same logic cfc, these are the only things that interact
with staff

router bot ensures only one person per webuser bot per staff member
so they are always on any particular webuser bot 1:1 and sends a
message to the webuser bot with a "to" routing address at the start
of the message telling it which staff user the message is for i.e.
"[EMAIL PROTECTED]'s x product cost" then webusern bot acts
like a simpler router just processing the addresses and sending
between the staff and the main router bot.

On May 28, 8:41 pm, Duncan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Nice one David - i am doing this for some not-so-savvy users (read
> sales & marketing) so this may be too easy to give a client the wrong
> answer or get confused. I dont think its fool proof enough. Tommorrow
> I will look at Smack.
>
> On 5/28/07, dsirr <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Hi Duncan
>
> > In regard to the multiple sessions bizzo, have a max sessions per
> > user(your company user) then associate new IM sessions up to that max
> > limit to your user in the app scope in an array or something and send
> > the session name to your users client with an identifier so your user
> > will see,
>
> > "cfbot says: Duncan(1) - i can't use this simple web form" or "cfbot
> > says: David(2) - the images aren't showing"
>
> > then your user can target reply to any of the sessions with a prefix,
> > i.e.
>
> > "1: RTFM, it's really easy" or "2: blah" etc,
>
> > then maybe have commands to release these sessions like "closeIM: 1"
> > etc
>
> > just some quick thoughts anyway
>
> > cheers
> > David
> > labs.redbd.net
>
> > On May 28, 4:45 pm, Duncan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > Have you used 
> > > Smackhttp://www.igniterealtime.org/projects/smack/index.jsp?or do you
> > > have another recommendation for a library?
>
> > > On 5/28/07, Lucas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > > > Hi Duncan,
> > > > last time I looked this was near on impossible with the inbuilt gateway 
> > > > as
> > > > it pretends to be a user - I have gotten around this in the past by 
> > > > using a
> > > > Java XMPP implementation and using that to talk to the IM server.
>
> > > > I know, this is not what you wanted to hear but it does work :)
>
> > > > cheers,
> > > > Lucas.
>
> > > > On 5/28/07, Duncan < [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > > > > All,
>
> > > > > Is there a way to send an IM from a cf page via the cf event gateway
> > > > > with a buddy id of something other than the cf gateway buddy id?
>
> > > > > For example I want our registered and logged in users to be able to IM
> > > > > the sales team online.
>
> > > > > Currently this works ok, but the sales person always sees a buddy of
> > > > > ColdFusion. The first message tells them who it was, but then after a
> > > > > few messages its not clear any more.
>
> > > > > So instead of the message buddyid saying coldfusion, can I get it to
> > > > > say the logged in users name?  This doesn't appear to be possible with
> > > > > sendGatewayMessage() but must be possible some other way as imified
> > > > > and so forth do this.
>
> > > > > Thanks!
>
> > > > > --
> > > > > Duncan I Loxton
> > > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> > > --
> > > Duncan I Loxton
> > > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> --
> Duncan I Loxton
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]


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[cfaussie] Re: Release Candidate? Where's the Public Beta?

[Duncan]

It certainly is out in public beta -

http://digg.com/programming/Adobe_releases_public_release_candidate_of_ColdFusion_8_AKA_Scorpio

On 5/30/07, Chris Velevitch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Unless something changed since you last looked, going to Labs and
> downloading the public beta is working for me.
>
>
> Chris
> --
> Chris Velevitch
> Manager - Sydney Flash Platform Developers Group
> m: 0415 469 095
> www.flashdev.org.au
>
> >
>


-- 
Duncan I Loxton
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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[cfaussie] Re: Coldfuson is dead - why did no one tell me

[Haikal Saadh]

(I'm not Gary, but I've been recently introduced to Spring, so I think 
I'll chime in.)

You can't put down Eclipse lightly, though.

Eclipse's java development tools are light years ahead of any of the CF 
tools (imho). It has knowledge of the language and it's classes,  does 
the autocomplety things that people like, has wizards and what not. Some 
parts are a little esoteric, but it's easy to ignore what you don't 
need, and slowly pick up new features.

Spring has also been an absolute pleasure to work with. Everything 
(DAOs, autowiring, MVC, even a scheduler for crying out loud) that made 
the slight overhead of learning it worthwhile. Speaking of, learning it 
was easy, the documentation was great to the point that I have not yet 
had to ask a single question on a forum or a mailing list. (Have 
searched archives though). I have tried to learn various cf frameworks, 
during various phases of maturity, but have walked away frustrated each 
time, so it was a pleasant surprise to that a java framework, (yes, that 
language about which everyone pisses and moans about being 'too hard') 
was easy to pick up even after about 3 or 4 years of not doing any 
active java development.

This is one of the things that frustrated me the most about CF... java 
had all these really cool tools, but even though CF is build on top of 
java, these tools were always for some odd reason just out of reach. 
Hibernate, iBatis, things that Could Make Life Easy... always just out 
of reach... and now with Spring... it takes only a few lines of XML to 
get it all working.




Barry Beattie wrote:
> SIDE NOTE:
>
> to emphesise Gary's credentials... he, his co-workers and the company
> he works for have supported the CF community and CFUG here in Brisbane
> for a long, long while.
>
> In the past he has been willing to lead by example, to back his
> committment and support with action. IMHO, his comments don't come
> lightly.
>
>
>
> Gary, are you willing to comment on developer tools and set-ups
> comparing Java development to CF? Sure, Eclipse is a common thread,
> but that's only the part of the story, yes?
>
> >
>
>   


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[cfaussie] Re: Coldfuson is dead - why did no one tell me

[Gary Menzel]

Yep - see my additional post to Robins reply.

And I could go on about the realities (for us) against TCO (emphasis on
TOTAL).

Stand by my statement.

Regards,
Gary


On 5/31/07, M@ Bourke <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> " The TCO (total cost of ownership) is much less than CFMX (most of it is
> free"
>
> from a TCO point of view, TCO is more then just the cost of a server.
>
> >
>

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[cfaussie] Re: Coldfuson is dead - why did no one tell me

[Gary Menzel]

I realise that Barry has asked me to respond to a "different" question (and
I was having trouble starting a reply realising that it is really for a
different thread - and possibly even a different list).

But I can definitely respond on topic to Robin's reply.

Firstly, I will clarify that I don't think Coldfusion is "dead" - the topic
just seems to be a good place to tell our story briefly.  Coldufusion
continues to be a rock-solid enterprise product.

1. Good Devs - definitely - hard to find everywhere (including Java).  You
will even see simple Senior Java Devs getting over $150K per year for perm
positions.  But there are still more Java developers than there are good
CFMX (I am talking those with solid OO and CFC experience).

2. A quality developer will be able to pick up most languages if they have a
good grounding in development.  This is something that I have always ensured
existed in our developers.  Some may even remember a number of years ago
several heated discussions on CFAUSSIE in this regard.  I stick by my
previous views on this because it has born out to show the approach valid in
our current transition.

3. This is my bit and may help to address some of Barry's questions..

CF for us has been "middleware" for a while.  And the RAD aspect of it has
not been important.  In fact, it probably never was important.  Prior to my
joining the company, the website and all development was outsourced.  So AAM
were not tinkering - even though the development company may have been.
While we still use HTML for our website - our internal applications are
running AJAX-based front ends (CF is not generating HTML).  Data and
Business Layer access is via a remote call to a single request broker which
translates the request directly into a method call on a Coldfusion
component.  All backend logic is written in CFC's and, within those CFC's,
the methods are (mostly) all written using CFSCRIPT (not tag based).  All
data access is localised to specific DAO CFC's.  It is a true n-tier
architecture.

I needed to set the stage (as we know it) before I could start to respond to
Barry.

So, in regard to Barry's question about a comparison

We have realised that we just dont need Coldfusion in the middle layer
because it not as rigorous as we could implement in Java and it is only a
layer over the top of Java.  In essence, it is getting in the way of us
leveraging the benefits of the underlying platform it is built on.  In other
words, it is redundant.

Of course, we still have a website - but see that moving to Java directly
internal requires us to move that way on the website.  Our website (as many
would know) is built on the FarCry CMS (which for some time AAM had a strong
role in helping develop).  FarCry is a good CFMX CMS system.  However, we
wish to move away from a database-driven CMS and move to a more traditional
website design (where the static pages are really static - which is the case
for our website - and we only use dynamic pages for true data-based access -
i.e. not for "content").

We will still be using templates on our website.  We intend to use
FreeMarker for that (instead of JSP).  We may even also mix in Velocity
templates.  The Spring Framework (compare to the CF port/work-alike -
ColdSpring) allows us to mix and match any MVC components within the same
website.  And we can use JSP if we want (even inside/with FreeMarker).  You
get the picture - greater flexibility.  All of these products have similar
variable replacement to CF - just a different syntax - and FreeMarker has a
more extensible model than CFMX's templating.

However, in variance to Robin's statement, we have LOTS of new development.
More projects than we have ever had in the past.  In addressing that, we are
looking more at large component pieces (like Document Composition,
Reporting, Portfolio Modelling) and developing integration pieces to hook
these together.  A lot of the tools we want to use are Java-based and/or
will benefit from high-performance integration.

As Robin would be aware - we have been "framework" focussed for quite a
while and our developer base is quite disciplined.  So we are well covered
in this regard.

As far as Scorpio is concerned.  We were invited to take part in the beta
program but I declined (given our direction change).  So, I can't comment if
the "interfaces" in their would meet our expectation.  But I can say "a
little too late".  I have been asking for this (and other optional features)
for many years only be told "not planned, use Java instead".  Hearing the
message.

4. [NOTE: I know this was not aimed at AAM - just adding to our story]
Again, as Robin would be aware, our company has spent a great deal of our
development dollars paying for CF licenses (in fact, I seem to remember that
I bought my own personal CFMX license from Rocketboots and may have been the
first license sale for them - or close to it).

Robin is right.  If you are spending lots of money (and we do) on
development $

[cfaussie] Re: Coldfuson is dead - why did no one tell me

[M@ Bourke]

" The TCO (total cost of ownership) is much less than CFMX (most of it is
free"

from a TCO point of view, TCO is more then just the cost of a server.

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[cfaussie] Re: Coldfuson is dead - why did no one tell me

[Barry Beattie]

Incorrect Robin

I (with support from Sarah Barry who still works there) was teaching
120+ students Coldfusion as part of the CertIV of IT at QANTM College,
Brisbane. ICAITB070A was the unit. Plus projects. For nearly 10
months.

from simple CFLOOP thru to MVC archetecture with CFC's.

of that, 2 people I know went on to be good coldFusion programmers
(G'day Rob.S). possibly more.


120 students. Jesus! think of the viral marketing of that.

Macromedia (at the time) did not lift a finger in support. You were
working for them at the time.

giving licences away to an educational institution would have reaped
benefits to this day and beyond.

Next year, change of management and I was gone, CF was out and PHP was
in because the "new broom" didn't want to spend one cent on server
technology.

considering the number of students going through the place, that's a
lot of lost embassidors.




On 5/30/07, Robin Hilliard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> On 30/05/2007, at 10:15 PM, Simon Haddon wrote:
> > Portability speaks for itself... many (all?) hosting companies have
> > IIS or PHP servers, but the number of them that support CF is
> > dwindling. The number of companies supporting or developing in CF is
> > also dwindling. If our customers want to take their website to someone
> > else, they will be severely restricted in where they can go - some may
> > see this as a good thing, but we don't believe in making ourselves
> > indispensable to the detriment of the client. It's the same deal with
> > ASP (not ASP.NET) - a lot of companies simply aren't supporting it
> > anymore.
>
> Where do you get you figure from? Or don't you have any.
>
>
>  I'm sure I mentioned this a few months back, but in some work I was doing
> for a client I wrote a scanner to count ColdFusion domains and servers on
> the internet. Over the last 3 or so years the number of .au ColdFusion
> domains has risen from 2,100 to well over 4,000.
>
> Long time readers of cfaussie know I can't resist sticking my oar into
> threads like this. Here's the 11pm and tired version of my response:
>
> 1. There is a shortage of devs of all types at present, and has been for
> about the last year and a bit. This is a natural outcome of the slump after
> the tech wreck which discouraged people from getting into Comp Sci courses
> and the like (Sydney U CS has lowest intake since the 1970s). Every CF shop
> I know is flat out at present.
>
> 2. Apart from a short while at Crows Nest TAFE, ColdFusion has never been
> taught by a university or TAFE. In the case of Computer Science courses I
> think this is perfectly ok - Any web specific technology is too vocational
> for this purpose. In the case of TAFEs, A lot depends on the staff at each
> TAFE. If you became a TAFE instructor you could probably choose to make a
> course out of it, but then you could be out earning programming dollars (see
> 1).
>
> 3. ColdFusion isn't for everyone - that's fine. It's best point has always
> been RAD, and if CF winds up in a stable part of your application stack
> (e.g. I suspect this is the case for Gary's team) say as middleware for some
> other presentation technology and with a very fixed set of back ends to
> integrate with, and little new development, then the RAD aspect is less
> important and a Java solution may be more cost effective. Another way RAD
> can become less important is if you have a good framework in the other
> technology (and you actually use it - that's the hard part). Good
> architecture evens out the differences somewhat, but the level of discipline
> required is pretty rare. BTW interfaces have been mentioned for Scorpio,
> although I don't think you're ever going to see strong compile time typing
> in CF - that's not what it's for, and Java integration is easy.
>
> 4. Apart from situations like (3), I've never bought the cost argument for a
> second. 90% of project costs are developer hours. In a RAD environment CF
> servers pay for themselves in days or weeks. If your business can afford
> 20,000 in development time and not 1,600 for a CF standard license (not to
> mention all the hosting options) something very weird is going on. If you
> can't justify 80/month for decent CF hosting, perhaps what you're doing is
> more a hobby than a business.
>
> Robin
>
> __
>
> Robin Hilliard
> Director - RocketBoots Pty Ltd
> Consulting . Recruitment . Software Licensing . Training
> http://www.rocketboots.com.au
> m +61 418 414 341
> e [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
>
>
>  >
>

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[cfaussie] Re: Coldfuson is dead - why did no one tell me

[Robin Hilliard]

On 30/05/2007, at 10:15 PM, Simon Haddon wrote:
> Portability speaks for itself... many (all?) hosting companies have
> IIS or PHP servers, but the number of them that support CF is
> dwindling. The number of companies supporting or developing in CF is
> also dwindling. If our customers want to take their website to someone
> else, they will be severely restricted in where they can go - some may
> see this as a good thing, but we don't believe in making ourselves
> indispensable to the detriment of the client. It's the same deal with
> ASP (not ASP.NET) - a lot of companies simply aren't supporting it
> anymore.
>
> Where do you get you figure from?  Or don't you have any.


I'm sure I mentioned this a few months back, but in some work I was  
doing for a client I wrote a scanner to count ColdFusion domains and  
servers on the internet.  Over the last 3 or so years the number  
of .au ColdFusion domains has risen from 2,100 to well over 4,000.

Long time readers of cfaussie know I can't resist sticking my oar  
into threads like this. Here's the 11pm and tired version of my  
response:

1. There is a shortage of devs of all types at present, and has been  
for about the last year and a bit.  This is a natural outcome of the  
slump after the tech wreck which discouraged people from getting into  
Comp Sci courses and the like (Sydney U CS has lowest intake since  
the 1970s).  Every CF shop I know is flat out at present.

2. Apart from a short while at Crows Nest TAFE, ColdFusion has never  
been taught by a university or TAFE.  In the case of Computer Science  
courses I think this is perfectly ok - Any web specific technology is  
too vocational for this purpose.  In the case of TAFEs, A lot depends  
on the staff at each TAFE.  If you became a TAFE instructor you could  
probably choose to make a course out of it, but then you could be out  
earning programming dollars (see 1).

3. ColdFusion isn't for everyone - that's fine.  It's best point has  
always been RAD, and if CF winds up in a stable part of your  
application stack (e.g. I suspect this is the case for Gary's team)  
say as middleware for some other presentation technology and with a  
very fixed set of back ends to integrate with, and little new  
development, then the RAD aspect is less important and a Java  
solution may be more cost effective.  Another way RAD can become less  
important is if you have a good framework in the other technology  
(and you actually use it - that's the hard part).  Good architecture  
evens out the differences somewhat, but the level of discipline  
required is pretty rare.  BTW interfaces have been mentioned for  
Scorpio, although I don't think you're ever going to see strong  
compile time typing in CF - that's not what it's for, and Java  
integration is easy.

4. Apart from situations like (3), I've never bought the cost  
argument for a second.  90% of project costs are developer hours. In  
a RAD environment CF servers pay for themselves in days or weeks.  If  
your business can afford 20,000 in development time and not 1,600 for  
a CF standard license (not to mention all the hosting options)  
something very weird is going on.  If you can't justify 80/month for  
decent CF hosting, perhaps what you're doing is more a hobby than a  
business.

Robin

__

Robin Hilliard
Director - RocketBoots Pty Ltd
Consulting . Recruitment . Software Licensing . Training
http://www.rocketboots.com.au
m+61 418 414 341
e[EMAIL PROTECTED]




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[cfaussie] Re: Coldfuson is dead - why did no one tell me

[Barry Beattie]

SIDE NOTE:

to emphesise Gary's credentials... he, his co-workers and the company
he works for have supported the CF community and CFUG here in Brisbane
for a long, long while.

In the past he has been willing to lead by example, to back his
committment and support with action. IMHO, his comments don't come
lightly.



Gary, are you willing to comment on developer tools and set-ups
comparing Java development to CF? Sure, Eclipse is a common thread,
but that's only the part of the story, yes?

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[cfaussie] Re: Coldfuson is dead - why did no one tell me

[Steve Onnis]

Can't help myself now.
 
Firstly I would like to express my absolute content with Coldfusion, its
capabilities and its functionality and having been fortunate to work with
other languages I much prefer CF over the others despite the additional
overhead in software expenses.
 
Now.
 
Having been a member of this list for a number of yrs now it amazes me that
every time something pops up about the lack of CF developers and such that
it becomes panic stations about the longevity of Coldfusion.  Did it ever
occur to those people that good CF developers are hard to come by because
they are working for the corporates and such or they are running their own
operations and aren't freelancing?
 
I recently had the opportunity to be working with a company that got an
applicant for a cf role.  We asked the candidate to submit some code
examples and it pretty much looked like PHP code that was converted to CF.
This tells me that because of the opportunity existing for good CF
developers that developers are trying to extend their skills into the CF
area.  
 
And really if you want to start poking holes, should we start a thread about
"Is .Net on its way out due to security concerns for Windows?".  I mean
really, that's what it comes down to.  Every language has its down falls.
Unfortunately Coldfusion has the one everyone moans about, its cost.  Many
people have pointed out that it is only really an initial cost and the cost
is quickly recouped because of the speed in which you can develop Coldfusion
applications with and its integrated feature set.
 
I guess to answer the question "why did no one tell me?" is because its not.
If you had of read the comments people are posting they're saying the exact
opposite and that it shouldnt be on that list.
 
Anywhoo
 
I know on my head stone it will say 
 
Steve

  _  

From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Simon Haddon
Sent: Wednesday, 30 May 2007 10:15 PM
To: cfaussie@googlegroups.com
Subject: [cfaussie] Re: Coldfuson is dead - why did no one tell me


My comments are intermixed below


On 30/05/07, schlub <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: 



I know it's dangerous to say this in this forum, but I would have to
agree that CF is a dying (though not dead) language based on my own
experiences with the CF industry. The fact is that teaching
institutions (Universities, TAFE etc) are churning out java / php / 
asp.net developers' at large rate. No one I have met has learnt CF
unless the company they were working for was already using it. This
has created a shortage of developers, especially in Perth. 


Yes I agree.  There are a shortage of CF developers.  There are also a
shortage of all developers at the moment. To say CF is dying would indicate
that Adobe don't want to invest in it any more.  As for learning CF.  Most
ppl learn on the job as it takes only a short time to learn the language.  



The company I work for has many old CF projects and a few current ones
being finished off, and I have had the misfortune of working with this 
code as much of it is largely procedural / mode based without any
inkling of functions / methods / objects (CFC's are a much spoken of
hidden treasure). Once these projects are finished we will probably
never start a new CF project and instead use ASP.NET or PHP. The
reasons? Financial costs, personnel, and portability.


It sound like you have a distast for CF anyway.  Some ppl like it others
don't.  That is fine and each to their own. Saying you would use ASP.NET or
PHP over CF again sounds like a personal tast not an indication the CF is
dying.  Interesting you mention portablilty.  Since when is ASP.NET
portable.  Since when is PHP portable between different databases?  I would
say that CF is the most portable language out of the lot.  Being Java under
the hood it makes it portable and distributable in a variety of formats. 



The cost of CF Server is prohibitively expensive when you compare it
to IIS or PHP (both free). The IDE is also not free, and let's face 
it, Dreamweaver or Homesite are pretty average. That's not to say we
don't mind paying for good products, but the advantages of CF Server
and the benefits of upgrading just aren't tangible enough.


I don't understand the comparson between CF and IIS.  IIS can be compared to
Apache but not CF.  You can compare CF to  any other application server you
like but IIS is a web server.  

The IDE for CF that is mostly used for CF is now Eclipse.  It is free and
very good.  Link it in with CFEclipse, FusionDebug, Mylar, etc and you have
an integrated IDE for free.  Most ppl agree the Dreamweaver and Homesite are
pretty average although a few ppl I know swear by Homesite 



CF developers are quite simply impossible to come by - well at least
with any amount of experience. It's easy to find a competent 
developer, but then you have to go through the time and expense of
training them in CF. If the industry is only churning out .net or php
developers 

[cfaussie] Re: Coldfuson is dead - why did no one tell me

[Gary Menzel]

It has been some time since I have written to the CFAUSSIE list.

As many on this list will know, ABN AMRO Morgans has been using CF (and CFMX
- with CFC's quite heavily) for some time now (well over 5 years).  I have
personally been using Coldfusion since V3 (mid 1999).  Prior to that I was a
dedicated C/C++ developer and trainer (with some Lotus Notes on the side).

Also - for some time now - the CF evangelist - Ben Forta - has been
encouraging people who need a more rigorous development platform (with
interfaces, strong typing, and other Java-like features) to move to Java.

I can now say that ABN AMRO Morgans have taken Ben's advice and we are
moving off Coldfusion and on to Java (Spring-based - not EJB).

That is not an overnight process, but it is our direction and the move has
started.  Our current investigations, testing, framework evaluation, etc. -
tells us we are making the right move.  We have already re-written portions
of our website to use Java-based objects over Coldfusion objects.

We actually have Coldfusion running on Tomcat (not in production) and are
able to obtain and interact with Spring-wired Java objects.  So we even have
a "soft" migration path (if we wish to take it - although I doubt we will
need it).

For us (and for me) - it has been a good run.  Java has matured.  The
toolsets are mature.  Coldfusion itself runs on Java (so it cant be that
bad).  And we have skilled developers that can easily make the move.  Time
to jump.

I am sure we will have our teething problems with Java - but it is a more
widely supported development platform with plenty of variants (WebSphere,
WebLogic, JBoss, Tomcat) so we are not tied to one vendor.  The TCO (total
cost of ownership) is much less than CFMX (most of it is free or we can buy
site-wide licenses for the cost of one CFMX server license - we run between
6-10 servers) and we are confident that this direction will continue to
serve us well for quite a while.


NOTE: we use our development platform for internal systems as much as (if
not more than) we do for "website development".


Regards,
Gary Menzel
Application Systems Architect
ABN AMRO Morgans

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[cfaussie] Re: Coldfuson is dead - why did no one tell me

[Simon Haddon]

My comments are intermixed below

On 30/05/07, schlub <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
>
> I know it's dangerous to say this in this forum, but I would have to
> agree that CF is a dying (though not dead) language based on my own
> experiences with the CF industry. The fact is that teaching
> institutions (Universities, TAFE etc) are churning out java / php /
> asp.net developers' at large rate. No one I have met has learnt CF
> unless the company they were working for was already using it. This
> has created a shortage of developers, especially in Perth.


Yes I agree.  There are a shortage of CF developers.  There are also a
shortage of all developers at the moment. To say CF is dying would indicate
that Adobe don't want to invest in it any more.  As for learning CF.  Most
ppl learn on the job as it takes only a short time to learn the language.

The company I work for has many old CF projects and a few current ones
> being finished off, and I have had the misfortune of working with this
> code as much of it is largely procedural / mode based without any
> inkling of functions / methods / objects (CFC's are a much spoken of
> hidden treasure). Once these projects are finished we will probably
> never start a new CF project and instead use ASP.NET or PHP. The
> reasons? Financial costs, personnel, and portability.


It sound like you have a distast for CF anyway.  Some ppl like it others
don't.  That is fine and each to their own. Saying you would use ASP.NET or
PHP over CF again sounds like a personal tast not an indication the CF is
dying.  Interesting you mention portablilty.  Since when is
ASP.NETportable.  Since when is PHP portable between different
databases?  I would
say that CF is the most portable language out of the lot.  Being Java under
the hood it makes it portable and distributable in a variety of formats.

The cost of CF Server is prohibitively expensive when you compare it
> to IIS or PHP (both free). The IDE is also not free, and let's face
> it, Dreamweaver or Homesite are pretty average. That's not to say we
> don't mind paying for good products, but the advantages of CF Server
> and the benefits of upgrading just aren't tangible enough.


I don't understand the comparson between CF and IIS.  IIS can be compared to
Apache but not CF.  You can compare CF to  any other application server you
like but IIS is a web server.

The IDE for CF that is mostly used for CF is now Eclipse.  It is free and
very good.  Link it in with CFEclipse, FusionDebug, Mylar, etc and you have
an integrated IDE for free.  Most ppl agree the Dreamweaver and Homesite are
pretty average although a few ppl I know swear by Homesite

CF developers are quite simply impossible to come by - well at least
> with any amount of experience. It's easy to find a competent
> developer, but then you have to go through the time and expense of
> training them in CF. If the industry is only churning out .net or php
> developers then that's what we have to work with.


You comment about developers is true of any language.  Nothing new here.

We have attempted to outsource to contractors in the eastern states
> with appalling results - we were jerked around by two separate
> contractors; one who assured us they were working on the system only
> to vanish (literally), and the second came back several weeks after
> the briefing to say they would be too busy for the next four months!
> Suffice to say we will only be using local resources from now on. We
> didn't lose any money, but we did lose 2 months development time and
> ended up with a peeved customer.


This sounds like a problem with your outsourcing arrangements and not a
fault of the language.

Portability speaks for itself... many (all?) hosting companies have
> IIS or PHP servers, but the number of them that support CF is
> dwindling. The number of companies supporting or developing in CF is
> also dwindling. If our customers want to take their website to someone
> else, they will be severely restricted in where they can go - some may
> see this as a good thing, but we don't believe in making ourselves
> indispensable to the detriment of the client. It's the same deal with
> ASP (not ASP.NET) - a lot of companies simply aren't supporting it
> anymore.


Where do you get you figure from?  Or don't you have any.  ASP.nET is well
supported and so is PHP, CF and most other languages around.  I have no
problems finding a good company that does CF hosting.  I would also suggest
that most clients that need a website also need their own server unless you
are talking about tiny sites.  If you need your own server then it doesn't
matter what you put on it.

CF has a lot of nice features, but discovering them can be a painful
> process.


Maybe so.  That is what the different conference, news groups,
documentation, books , etc are for.

Anyway, these are just my experiences - I expect to get some flames
> for this... :)


This is not considered a flam response.  I am just replying with my

[cfaussie] Re: Coldfuson is dead - why did no one tell me

[Dale Fraser]

I had noticed that also.

 

I'm sure they just forgot to send the domain to the right address.

 

Regards

Dale Fraser

 

http://dale.fraser.id.au/blog

 

From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of M@ Bourke
Sent: Wednesday, 30 May 2007 8:25 PM
To: cfaussie@googlegroups.com
Subject: [cfaussie] Re: Coldfuson is dead - why did no one tell me

 

lately when I try www.coldfusion.com it doesn't seem to work.

it used to a few months back.
when ever a non cf person asks me "whats the site for coldfusion" I say
www.coldfusion.com
I'm not going to say "go to the adobe site and hunt around" lol

I hope it's only temp down when ever I seem to look at the site. 





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[cfaussie] Re: Coldfuson is dead - why did no one tell me

[M@ Bourke]

lately when I try www.coldfusion.com it doesn't seem to work.

it used to a few months back.
when ever a non cf person asks me "whats the site for coldfusion" I say
www.coldfusion.com
I'm not going to say "go to the adobe site and hunt around" lol

I hope it's only temp down when ever I seem to look at the site.

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