Re: [ChurchillChat] Re: Churchill’s treatment at the hands of ‘Churchill Scholars’

[chateaustegosaurus]

I remember reading that, Richard.  It is a tribute which should be remembered  
-  and emulated.
Jonathan


  From: Richard Langworth 
 To: ChurchillChat  
 Sent: Sunday, February 26, 2017 2:13 PM
 Subject: [ChurchillChat] Re: Churchill’s treatment at the hands of ‘Churchill 
Scholars’
   
Jonathan,Very nice poetry. In the same line of thought, attached is the 
memorial the great Mustafa Kemal placed on the Gallipoli battlefield. Turkey 
could use another Ataturk today.

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Re: [ChurchillChat] Re: Churchill’s treatment at the hands of ‘Churchill Scholars’

[chateaustegosaurus]

I guess it's only fitting that we end this on a poetic note - not by me; I'm 
the second worst poet in the English language - but by one of the time.
Jonathan Hayes

 
 
 
 
 
 
 ACHILLES IN THE TRENCH
 
 Patrick Shaw-Stewart
 
 I saw a man this morning 
 Who did not wish to die; 
 I ask, and cannot answer, 
 if otherwise wish I.
 
 Fair broke the day this morning 
 Upon the Dardanelles: 
 The breeze blew soft, the morn's cheeks 
 Were cold as cold sea-shells. 
 
 But other shells are waiting
 Across the Aegean Sea; 
 Shrapnel and high explosives, 
 Shells and hells for me. 
 
 Oh Hell of ships and cities, 
 Hell of men like me, 
 Fatal second Helen, 
 Why must I follow thee? 
 
 Achilles came to Troyland 
 And I to Chersonese; 
 He turned from wrath to battle, 
 And I from three days' peace. 
 
 Was it so hard, Achilles, 
 So very hard to die? 
 Thou knowest, and I know not; 
 So much the happier am I. 
 
I will go back this morning 
 From Imbros o'er the sea. 
 Stand in the trench, Achilles, 
 Flame-capped, and shout for me.    
 
 
 
 
 



  From: Grimsdyke 
 To: ChurchillChat  
Cc: chateaustegosau...@att.net
 Sent: Sunday, February 26, 2017 12:22 AM
 Subject: Re: [ChurchillChat] Re: Churchill’s treatment at the hands of 
‘Churchill Scholars’
   
That is a most decorous note you've struck Jonathan. Thank you for your words. 
I thought I had bought your book, but I was mistaken. I shall order it straight 
away. Take careLincoln

On Sunday, February 26, 2017 at 7:19:32 PM UTC+13, chateaust...@att.net wrote:
I think our thanks are to you for bringing the topic up.  The discussion has 
been (in my sage and well-considered opinion) most fruitful and I have 
appreciated all the insights.  Well played, gentlemen!
Jonathan Hayes


  From: Grimsdyke 
 To: ChurchillChat  
 Sent: Saturday, February 25, 2017 9:37 PM
 Subject: [ChurchillChat] Re: Churchill’s treatment at the hands of ‘Churchill 
Scholars’
  
>From theamount of interest it has sparked, this seems to be indeed a worthy 
>topic; I’mnow glad I began it. These are great comments so far, and their 
>greatestfascination for me is to see how and in what form many people approach 
>the lifeof this great man. I hope the others on this forum will forgive me my 
>habit ofdipping in only on weekends, because to my great regret weekdays 
>deprive me of eventhe smallest chance to indulge in Churchillian and other 
>delightful fare.  It’s quiteright, I think, to say that history is rarely so 
>simple as to be reducible to ‘superherothwarted by dullards’ narratives. But 
>Churchill (I cannot think of anyone lesssuited to being pictured as an 
>unnaturally muscled individual with sloping brow,flashing teeth and coloured 
>cape) at his energetic best was much moreimpressive than an ordinary 
>superhero, and thwarted he certainly was – if one would read the 
>numerousaccounts of the campaign with all its details exposed. As I said 
>before, manyaccounts are equally instructive, but I find that among the most 
>readable andconsecutive of these are the accounts by William Manchester (The 
>Last Lion), Violet Bonham Carter (Winston Churchill as I knew him) andMichael 
>Shelden (Young Titan).Michael Shelden’s book is particularly interesting, and 
>illuminating far beyondeven some of the best biographies of Churchill that I 
>have read (and I haveread more than 30), and meticulously researched. I 
>shouldn’t spoil it for thosewho would like to buy the book – which I can’t 
>recommend too highly; but pages306 to 322 cover the Dardanelles imbroglio with 
>zest and superlative perspicuity,and you couldn’t possibly rise from reading 
>the book without realising how muchthere was about Churchill that one hadn’t 
>known before.  I think I’minclined to agree with you, Chris Bell; 3 minutes is 
>a suspiciously short timeto allot to something as climactic in the Churchill 
>record as the Dardanelles,and Martin Gilbert was hardly the man to overlook 
>this.  I don’t thinkI could disagree much with Jonathan, although I have grave 
>reservations about ‘notbeing able to fault Kitchener’ for his part in 
>depriving the campaign of troops,and supplying too little too late. Michael 
>Shelden is brilliant on this, as isWilliam Manchester.  Violet Bonham Carter, 
>who had the almostunedited confidence of her father, Prime Minister Asquith, 
>expresses aperspective deeper and more intimate and often more direct than any 
>of the others, although her objectivity is somewhat vitiated by her loyalty to 
>Asquith - as concerns the special sphere in which the Prime Minister's 
>treatment of Winston bears on these events when things began to go wrong. 
>Also, his almost treacherous lack of decisiveness is given scant exposure by 
>his daughter, who not surprisingly obfuscates it. For all that, hers is a 
>tremendously valuable book; superbly written, and readable in the extreme.  
>Violet makesit plain that Kitchener, after receiving an urgent appeal from 
>Grand DukeNicholas for the Brit

Re: [ChurchillChat] Re: Churchill’s treatment at the hands of ‘Churchill Scholars’

[chateaustegosaurus]

I think our thanks are to you for bringing the topic up.  The discussion has 
been (in my sage and well-considered opinion) most fruitful and I have 
appreciated all the insights.  Well played, gentlemen!
Jonathan Hayes


  From: Grimsdyke 
 To: ChurchillChat  
 Sent: Saturday, February 25, 2017 9:37 PM
 Subject: [ChurchillChat] Re: Churchill’s treatment at the hands of ‘Churchill 
Scholars’
   
>From theamount of interest it has sparked, this seems to be indeed a worthy 
>topic; I’mnow glad I began it. These are great comments so far, and their 
>greatestfascination for me is to see how and in what form many people approach 
>the lifeof this great man. I hope the others on this forum will forgive me my 
>habit ofdipping in only on weekends, because to my great regret weekdays 
>deprive me of eventhe smallest chance to indulge in Churchillian and other 
>delightful fare.  It’s quiteright, I think, to say that history is rarely so 
>simple as to be reducible to ‘superherothwarted by dullards’ narratives. But 
>Churchill (I cannot think of anyone lesssuited to being pictured as an 
>unnaturally muscled individual with sloping brow,flashing teeth and coloured 
>cape) at his energetic best was much moreimpressive than an ordinary 
>superhero, and thwarted he certainly was – if one would read the 
>numerousaccounts of the campaign with all its details exposed. As I said 
>before, manyaccounts are equally instructive, but I find that among the most 
>readable andconsecutive of these are the accounts by William Manchester (The 
>Last Lion), Violet Bonham Carter (Winston Churchill as I knew him) andMichael 
>Shelden (Young Titan).Michael Shelden’s book is particularly interesting, and 
>illuminating far beyondeven some of the best biographies of Churchill that I 
>have read (and I haveread more than 30), and meticulously researched. I 
>shouldn’t spoil it for thosewho would like to buy the book – which I can’t 
>recommend too highly; but pages306 to 322 cover the Dardanelles imbroglio with 
>zest and superlative perspicuity,and you couldn’t possibly rise from reading 
>the book without realising how muchthere was about Churchill that one hadn’t 
>known before.  I think I’minclined to agree with you, Chris Bell; 3 minutes is 
>a suspiciously short timeto allot to something as climactic in the Churchill 
>record as the Dardanelles,and Martin Gilbert was hardly the man to overlook 
>this.  I don’t thinkI could disagree much with Jonathan, although I have grave 
>reservations about ‘notbeing able to fault Kitchener’ for his part in 
>depriving the campaign of troops,and supplying too little too late. Michael 
>Shelden is brilliant on this, as isWilliam Manchester.  Violet Bonham Carter, 
>who had the almostunedited confidence of her father, Prime Minister Asquith, 
>expresses aperspective deeper and more intimate and often more direct than any 
>of the others, although her objectivity is somewhat vitiated by her loyalty to 
>Asquith - as concerns the special sphere in which the Prime Minister's 
>treatment of Winston bears on these events when things began to go wrong. 
>Also, his almost treacherous lack of decisiveness is given scant exposure by 
>his daughter, who not surprisingly obfuscates it. For all that, hers is a 
>tremendously valuable book; superbly written, and readable in the extreme.  
>Violet makesit plain that Kitchener, after receiving an urgent appeal from 
>Grand DukeNicholas for the British to make a naval or military demonstration 
>to draw offTurkish forces and ease the Russian position, had then commended 
>theDardanelles as the decisive place for such a ‘demonstration’ to 
>WinstonChurchill on the one hand, and made a corresponding pledge to Nicolas 
>on theother. At the War Council on January 5 and 8th 2015, “Lord Kitcheneronce 
>again expressed his preference for the Dardanelles as an objective”, andCol 
>Maurice Hankey, whose brainchild the Dardanelles campaign had beenoriginally, 
>had minuted the practically unanimous agreement of the War Councilupon this. 
>“It seems strange” she writes, “that no one should have questionedthe decision 
>to ‘take the Gallipoli Peninsula’ without troops when LordKitchener had 
>estimated that 150,000 would be sufficient for that purpose andyet had made it 
>clear that no troops were available.” Later on, when troopsbecame available 
>for the Middle East, Col Hankey expressed to Prime Minister Asquithhis strong 
>view that naval operations should be supported by a military force;on February 
>16 the War Council agreed that the 29th division shouldbe sent to Lemnos as 
>the foundation of the military attack on the Dardanelles. “Butit was not, 
>alas, adhered to by Lord Kitchener”. The War Council did not acceptthe 
>doctrine that sending men to ‘chew barbed wire on the Western front was theway 
>to achieve victory, and Churchill was foremost among those who deplored 
>thecarnage and waste intrinsic to the ‘Western school of thought’.   At 
>therequest of C

Re: [ChurchillChat] Churchill’s treatment at the hands of ‘Churchill Scholars’

[chateaustegosaurus]

It's impossible to know whether the Dardanelles was a good idea or not - it 
didn't work, so there is no way really to evaluate it.  Yes, it might have been 
a game-changer, but it also might have just gotten bogged down as the Salonika 
expedition did later.  Speculation is fun - I do a lot of it myself - but label 
it as such.

I think it's unfair to fault Kitchener for not supplying troops sooner.  He 
didn't have them; prewar Britain did not have a large conscript army as the 
continental powers did.  Nor did the Commonwealth countries.  You don't just 
produce armies out of nothing overnight.  It takes time to recruit, train and 
equip them.  I think he did quite well having them by 1916.  He probably did as 
well as he could under the circumstances, knowing what he did at the time.
As far as blaming Churchill  -  well, life isn't fair.  "They (the Hansa towns) 
were to learn by bitter experience, what individuals too have to learn that 
mankind cannot resist the temptation to kick the man or nation that is down."  
(The Hansa Towns, Helen Zimmern).   We don't have to like it that that is the 
way the world is, but at least we shouldn't be surprised.
Jonathan Hayes


  From: Chris Bell 
 To: churchillchat@googlegroups.com 
 Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2017 11:57 AM
 Subject: Re: [ChurchillChat] Churchill’s treatment at the hands of ‘Churchill 
Scholars’
   
 I'm not in a position to comment on how faithfully the BBC adhered to Martin 
Gilbert's views when putting together this documentary, but I would echo Dave's 
comment that "It’s rarely that simple." Three minutes is hardly enough time to 
resolve such a complex topic as the Dardanelles and Gallipoli campaigns. And, 
as I've argued in my new book, it is impossible to come up with a simple and 
straightforward verdict as to who was to blame. Everyone made mistakes, 
including Churchill. Unfortunately, he is also frequently blamed for things he 
wasn't really responsible for. The comments by Silvester and Page in the 
documentary do create a negative impression, but neither one witnessed 
first-hand the decision-making process at the Admiralty or the War Council, and 
I wouldn't place much weight on their testimony. I suspect it was the BBC's 
decision to include them, not Sir Martin's. 
 
 Chris 
 
 On 2017-02-19 12:22 AM, Dave Turrell wrote:
  
 
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Maybe it’s my generation, but I am having a huge problem getting past the 
mental image of Jimmy Page standing on the beaches at Gallipoli and ripping off 
one of his trademark solos.    In general, I tend to be cautious when it comes 
to “Super-hero thwarted by dullards” historical narratives.  It’s rarely that 
simple.  The Dardanelles campaign has been debated endlessly in the past 
century, and I do not believe that the decisive blow has ever been struck by 
either side.    I did watch the series in question, several years ago, and 
recall being impressed by it.  I have never been other than impressed by the 
late Sir Martin’s work.    Dave     From: churchillchat@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:churchillchat@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Grimsdyke
 Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2017 9:48 PM
 To: ChurchillChat 
 Subject: [ChurchillChat] Churchill’s treatment at the hands of ‘Churchill 
Scholars’     In general, bone fide Churchill scholars have been fairly 
consistent in the way they handle his record, and what comes down to us is the 
image of a fiercely pugnacious, infinitely creative man of genius, with an 
incandescently brilliant mind who made both mistakes and their decided 
opposite, but whose motives throughout were gallant, noble, magnanimous ……and a 
host of other adjectives, none of which have any truck with mean-spiritedness, 
littleness, or spite or malevolence, or any of those characteristics that 
belong to lesser men. However, I have been puzzled beyond words by the 
treatment of certain parts of his record at the hands of some who had always 
seemed to be among the most discerning of ‘Churchill Scholars’.    A few years 
ago the BBC put out a 4-episode programme on Churchill which was written and 
presented

Re: [ChurchillChat] Glow-Worm

[chateaustegosaurus]

Anybody who doesn't like WSC's glow worm comment is crazy.  It was brilliant.  
Wish I'd thought of it ('course it was many decades before I was born, but 
that's a trivial quibble.)
Jonathan Hayes


  From: Cita Stelzer 
 To: "'Chat Room WSC (ChurchillChat@googlegroups.com)'" 
 
 Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2017 4:02 PM
 Subject: [ChurchillChat] Glow-Worm
   
Does anyone know what happened to that interim  mailing titled Glow-Worm? It 
used to have such interesting details and information about Winston Churchill


Cita Stelzer

Please note new email address:
c...@irwinstelzer.com

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Re: [ChurchillChat] The White House Churchill Bust: Again!?

[chateaustegosaurus]

Thanks to Richard Langworth for making this all clear.  But I'm afraid it's one 
of those things, like Churchill participating in the last cavalry charge, which 
just won't die.
Jonathan Hayes


  From: Richard Langworth 
 To: ChurchillChat  
 Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2016 10:31 AM
 Subject: [ChurchillChat] The White House Churchill Bust: Again!?
   
OMG, here we go again with the Great White House Churchill Bust Conspiracy. The 
bloomin' thing has never left! https://richardlangworth.com/churchill-bust-not.
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Re: [ChurchillChat] The River War

[chateaustegosaurus]

Now I'm really confused.  Whose project is this?  I had originally thought it 
was Prof. Muller's project, in which case he would be free to change publishers 
in case they weren't producing.  I was then given to understand that it was a 
St. Augustine Press project and they had contracted with Prof. Muller to do the 
annotation. In that case, while they would control the publication date, Prof. 
Muller should be adequately compensated under his contract.
So how does the Churchill Centre all of a sudden come into this?  Who, if 
anyone, is running the show and are we ever going to see a published result?  
Or should we just kiss it off and go on to something else.
Jonathan Hayes


  From: STAN ORCHARD 
 To: churchillchat@googlegroups.com 
 Sent: Saturday, October 22, 2016 4:02 PM
 Subject: RE: [ChurchillChat] The River War
   
My interpretation of Lee's posting is that there is some 
financial contribution threshold from The Churchill Centre that needs to be 
reached before the book can be published.  And if the Centre had more cash flow 
the book would have been printed and shipped long ago.  If this is the case 
then why not just confess the shortfall and provide everyone with a realistic 
timeline to publication based upon facts and circumstances that everyone can 
understand.  Is this the end?  The beginning of the end?  Or, at least the end 
of the beginning?
Stan

BullfrogControl.com Inc.
69A Burnside Road West
Victoria, British Columbia
CANADA V9A 1B6

bullfrogcont...@shaw.ca 
250-858-FROG (3764)
www.bullfrogcontrol.com

Sent from my BlackBerry® PlayBook™
www.blackberry.com
From: "Lee Pollock" 
To: "churchillchat@googlegroups.com" 
Sent: 22 October, 2016 3:05 PM
Subject: RE: [ChurchillChat] The River War

Dear Jonathan:  I wish I could tell you and the other members of this chat 
group that Prof. Muller has been “well compensated” for his 15+ years of work 
on this immense undertaking, but that unfortunately is not the case.  While The 
Churchill Centre has been continuously supportive of his efforts on this and 
other Churchill works, we are a small non-profit and have limited funds 
available for grants for research and writing, no matter how worthy, as this 
edition of The River War surely is.   Specialized works of this kind do not 
garner big advances from publishers and St.  Augustine Press itself is a small 
independent enterprise in a world where the publishing and bookselling trades 
are under stress.  But I would like to offer the following suggestions:  1. 
  This chat group has a fairly large number of members, many of whom are not 
members of The Churchill Centre.  I encourage those of you who are not to join, 
which you can do online or by using the attached form.  If you so indicate, one 
hundred percent of your first year’s dues will be used to support the research 
and writing of Prof. Muller and other scholars.  2.   For those who are 
already members (and for others):  we welcome contributions of any amount that 
you might consider and you can designate that your funds be used to support 
publication of this new edition of The River War and/or for general research by 
Prof. Muller and others.  I hope you will all give favorable consideration to 
these suggestions.  Lee PollockExecutive DirectorThe Churchill CentreChicago, 
IL 60603lpoll...@winstonchurchill.org       From: 
churchillchat@googlegroups.com [mailto:churchillchat@googlegroups.com] On 
Behalf Of chateaustegosau...@att.net
Sent: Saturday, October 22, 2016 11:38 AM
To: churchillchat@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [ChurchillChat] The (mythical) River War  I, also, received a 
notice that the October pub date was off, but they didn't give a new one.  I 
hope Prof. Muller has been well compensated for his work 'cause there ain't 
going to be any royalties.  Jonathan Hayes  From: Dave Turrell 

To: churchillchat@googlegroups.com 
Sent: Friday, October 21, 2016 4:40 PM
Subject: [ChurchillChat] The (mythical) River War  In doing some desultory web 
browsing today, I note that the latest date that St Augustine Press has been 
giving for publication of Jim Muller’s ‘River War’ (September 2016) has been 
and gone, like so many of their other proposed publication dates over the last 
15 years or more.  Checking with Amazon, it seems that they were, at least, not 
taken in by the latest, and still show a publication date of November 2013.  
While I think that most of us have come to accept the prospect of publication 
of this work as being something of a bizarre ongoing joke, I wonder if St. 
Augustine will get round to not referring to their offering as having a 
foreword by “Churchill’s only surviving child, Lady Soames”.  That strikes me 
as being a little tacky, at best. Cheers, Dave-- 
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Re: [ChurchillChat] The (mythical) River War

[chateaustegosaurus]

I, also, received a notice that the October pub date was off, but they didn't 
give a new one.  I hope Prof. Muller has been well compensated for his work 
'cause there ain't going to be any royalties.
Jonathan Hayes


  From: Dave Turrell 
 To: churchillchat@googlegroups.com 
 Sent: Friday, October 21, 2016 4:40 PM
 Subject: [ChurchillChat] The (mythical) River War
   
In doing 
some desultory web browsing today, I note that the latest date that St 
Augustine Press has been giving for publication of Jim Muller’s ‘River War’ 
(September 2016) has been and gone, like so many of their other proposed 
publication dates over the last 15 years or more.  Checking with Amazon, it 
seems that they were, at least, not taken in by the latest, and still show a 
publication date of November 2013.  While I think that most of us have come to 
accept the prospect of publication of this work as being something of a bizarre 
ongoing joke, I wonder if St. Augustine will get round to not referring to 
their offering as having a foreword by “Churchill’s only surviving child, Lady 
Soames”.  That strikes me as being a little tacky, at best.  Cheers,  Dave -- 
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Re: [ChurchillChat] Is Churchill Still Relevant?

[chateaustegosaurus]

She was very much of the "velvet glove" school.  Whenever she had suspicions of 
one of her subjects, she would do him the honor of visiting him.  The cost of 
housing, feeding and entertaining Queen Bess and her entourage would drive the 
guy almost to bankruptcy.  After a while, she didn't even have to go visit - 
just the suggestion that she might would be enough to bring the subject into 
line.  Now that's some sophistication in the dictatorship business!
Jonathan

  From: Dave Turrell 
 To: churchillchat@googlegroups.com 
 Sent: Saturday, September 17, 2016 7:34 PM
 Subject: RE: [ChurchillChat] Is Churchill Still Relevant?
   
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{}#yiv1204025465 Jonathan,  “She ran history's most successful police state.”  
A strong statement indeed.  I hope ‘Dear Leader’ in NK doesn’t think you are 
denigrating his accomplishments.  Or that the NSA doesn’t feel slighted.  I 
hear Stalin sobbing in his tomb.  Cheers J,  Dave  From: 
churchillchat@googlegroups.com [mailto:churchillchat@googlegroups.com] On 
Behalf Of chateaustegosau...@att.net
Sent: Saturday, September 17, 2016 5:36 PM
To: churchillchat@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [ChurchillChat] Is Churchill Still Relevant?  I would hope that 
Elizabeth I would not be relevant.  She ran history's most successful police 
state.  "The spacious days of good Queen Bess" were extremely repressive - and 
she got people to love it.  Jonathan Hayes  From: Richard M. Langworth 

To: ChurchillChat  
Sent: Friday, September 16, 2016 12:58 AM
Subject: [ChurchillChat] Is Churchill Still Relevant?  On Thursday, September 
15, 2016 at 11:00:20 PM UTC-4, Dave Turrell wrote:
Would anyone care to explain why WSC will be relevant to someone born in, say, 
2000?  More so than Gladstone, Walpole, or Elizabeth I?
  A challenging question, Dave. But start with the attached. Somehow I don't 
see Gladstone, Walpole or Bess making the cut. -- 
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Re: [ChurchillChat] Is Churchill Still Relevant?

[chateaustegosaurus]

I would hope that Elizabeth I would not be relevant.  She ran history's most 
successful police state.  "The spacious days of good Queen Bess" were extremely 
repressive - and she got people to love it.
Jonathan Hayes


  From: Richard M. Langworth 
 To: ChurchillChat  
 Sent: Friday, September 16, 2016 12:58 AM
 Subject: [ChurchillChat] Is Churchill Still Relevant?
   
On Thursday, September 15, 2016 at 11:00:20 PM UTC-4, Dave Turrell wrote:
Would anyone care to explain why WSC will be relevant to someone born in, say, 
2000?  More so than Gladstone, Walpole, or Elizabeth I?

A challenging question, Dave. But start with the attached. Somehow I don't see 
Gladstone, Walpole or Bess making the cut. -- 
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Re: [ChurchillChat] Re: in The Independent today : Winston Churchill 'would not become Prime Minister today because his speaking style would be mocked'

[chateaustegosaurus]

Churchill's speeches were popular even with those who disagreed with him 
because of their content  I suspect it was because he wrote them himself and 
his own personality came through in them.  Are there any political figures 
today who write their own speeches?  I should be very much surprised if there 
were.
(Personal note: when I was in the Air Force, once a month it would be my 
squadron commander's turn to write a column in the Base newspaper.  I had the 
job of writing them for him.)
Jonathan Hayes


  From: Anthony Calabrese 
 To: List Churchill  
 Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2016 11:30 AM
 Subject: RE: [ChurchillChat] Re: in The Independent today : Winston Churchill 
'would not become Prime Minister today because his speaking style would be 
mocked'
   
Would they?  
Boris Johnson does not seem to suffer from his eccentric speaking style.  
 
> From: churchillchat@googlegroups.com
> To: churchillchat@googlegroups.com
> Subject: [ChurchillChat] Re: in The Independent today : Winston Churchill 
> 'would not become Prime Minister today because his speaking style would be 
> mocked'
> Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2016 11:41:06 +0100
> 
> Winston Churchill 'would not become Prime Minister today because his 
> speaking style would be mocked'
> Romola Garai, who stars in new ITV drama about the politician, says his 
> eccentricities would rule him out in the modern era
> 
> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/winston-churchill-would-not-become-prime-minister-today-because-his-speaking-style-would-be-mocked-a6882066.html
>  
> 
> 
> ---
> L'absence de virus dans ce courrier électronique a été vérifiée par le 
> logiciel antivirus Avast.
> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
> 
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Re: [ChurchillChat] App - Winston Churchill's own 'fiendishly hard' version of solitaire

[chateaustegosaurus]

Bezique seems to be an ancestor of pinochle.
Jonathan Hayes



 

  From: Robert Courts 
 To: "ChurchillChat@googlegroups.com"  
 Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2016 10:23 AM
 Subject: Re: [ChurchillChat] App - Winston Churchill's own 'fiendishly hard' 
version of solitaire
   
Dear Antoine,

It’s beyond me, too, I’m afraid. 

I haven’t heard the solitaire link before, either - but like you I had heard 
bezique a lot. 

Robert


> On 26 Jan 2016, at 19:49, 'Antoine Capet' via ChurchillChat 
>  wrote:
> 
> Dear Robert,
> 
> Many thanks for this - I followed the link and I must confess I did not 
> understand anything about that game, and why WSC's version was different.
> 
> In his biographies, "bezique" is everywhere and "solitaire" almost nowhere. 
> Both sound French, but they are not played in contemporary France, and I have 
> no clue about their nature : is there a connection between the two ?
> 
> No doubt some List Members must be latter-day adepts of these card games and 
> can make all this understandable to all of us.
> 
> With all best wishes,
> 
> Professor Antoine CAPET, FRHistS
> Head of British Studies
> University of Rouen
> 76821 Mont-Saint-Aignan
> France
> antoine.ca...@univ-rouen.fr
> 
> 'Britain since 1914' Section Editor
> Royal Historical Society Bibliography
> 
> Reviews Editor of CERCLES
> http://www.cercles.com/review/reviews.html
> ==
> 
> 
> -Message d'origine- From: Robert Courts
> Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2016 10:34 AM
> To: ChurchillChat@googlegroups.com
> Subject: [ChurchillChat] App - Winston Churchill's own 'fiendishly hard' 
> version of solitaire
> 
> Here’s an interesting item from the morning papers, and with an app to play, 
> too -
> 
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/video-games/12119786/Donald-Rumsfeld-launches-solitaire-app-inspired-by-Winston-Churchill.html?WT.mc_id=e_DM83570&WT.tsrc=email&etype=Edi_Pol_New_NEW_TEMPLATE&utm_source=email&utm_medium=Edi_Pol_New_NEW_TEMPLATE_2016_01_26&utm_campaign=DM83570
> 
> Robert
> 
> 
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Re: [ChurchillChat] 'Churchill and Napoleon' with Dr Andrew Roberts - Feb 8th

[chateaustegosaurus]

I didn't know they were contemporaries.  Did I miss something?
Jonathan Hayes

 

  From: John David Olsen 
 To: ChurchillChat@googlegroups.com 
 Sent: Sunday, January 10, 2016 1:36 PM
 Subject: [ChurchillChat] 'Churchill and Napoleon' with Dr Andrew Roberts - Feb 
8th
   
For anyone planning to be in London next month, The International Churchill 
Society (UK) is hosting a Champagne Reception (Pol Roger of course!) with Guest 
Speaker Dr Andrew Roberts.
'CHURCHILL AND NAPOLEON'
February 8, 2016 - 6:00 PM
Location: The Churchill Bar, Hyatt Regency, 30 Portman Square, London
For further information and to reserve your seat http://bit.ly/1ObzESc

John David Olsen
THE CHURCHILL CENTREt.   ​+61 401 92 7878t.   ​​+1-323-205-5595w.  
www.winstonchurchill.orge.   jol...@winstonchurchill.org-- 
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Re: [ChurchillChat] River War Publication

[chateaustegosaurus]

I would certainly be the last to ever question Prof. Muller's integrity or 
depth of scholarship.  My query, as Mr. Turrell points out, had to do with the 
never-ending vanishing publication dates.  Any academic publisher deals with 
niche markets  -  I have a book "The Latin Inscriptions of Rome" written by a 
friend and published by Johns Hopkins Press.  Now that's a pretty niche market, 
but it came out pretty much on the schedule Johns Hopkins said it would.  St. 
Augustine's Press is doing its potential customers a dis-service with their 
continuing changing publishing dates.  I feel St. Augustine would NOT approve.
Jonathan Hayes

  From: Dave Turrell 
 To: churchillchat@googlegroups.com 
 Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 2015 8:39 PM
 Subject: RE: [ChurchillChat] River War Publication
   
Chris has, in many 
ways, hit the nail on the head.  I do not believe that any of us on this 
distro, and particularly those of us who have met or corresponded with Prof. 
Muller, would have any truck with impugning anything related to his 
professionalism, dedication, or attention to detail.  At the same time, the 
publisher who produces a full text version of The River War is to be admired.  
It is, as Lee points out, a niche market and we should have no sense of 
entitlement in regards to seeing it.  But, as yet , St. Augustine have earned 
no admiration.  They have talked the talk, but the walk is conspicuous by its 
absence.   As Chris notes, I think what sticks most in the craw is the 
seemingly endless stream of hypothetical publication dates, spanning more than 
ten years.  I’m not sure if, in the modern business world, this is technically 
known as ‘public relations’, ‘advertising’, or good old fashioned ‘mendacity’, 
but it is certainly insulting to the audience.  When, and if, the publication 
finally happens I shall no doubt praise St. Augustine to the skies. Until then 
I must continue to regard them as all mouth and trousers J.  Dave   From: 
churchillchat@googlegroups.com [mailto:churchillchat@googlegroups.com] On 
Behalf Of Chris Bell
Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 2015 7:35 AM
To: churchillchat@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [ChurchillChat] River War Publication  I would like to echo Lee's 
comments. I was lucky enough to hear Jim Muller speak about the new edition of 
the River War in Paris this month, and the work that has gone into this new 
edition is monumental. It takes time to do something like this properly, and we 
are all fortunate that Jim is taking the time to ensure that it is done right. 
There are, I notice, a few other "new" editions of the River War floating 
around these days, but these all appear to be simply the text of the abridged 
edition without editorial input of any kind, let alone any of the annotations, 
footnotes, or scholarly apparatus that Lee refers to. I suspect these are the 
result of lazy publishers looking to make a quick buck now that the book has 
entered the public domain in the USA (if I understand it correctly). 

I do not understand why the St Augustine's Press has insisted for so long in 
promising that the book is on the verge of publication when they must have 
known that that was not actually the case. They have cried wolf so often that I 
don't blame people for being frustrated and sceptical. But I certainly got the 
impression that we really are getting close to publication this time. 

We just need to be patient a little longer. It will be worth the wait. 

Chris


On 2015-10-19 11:01 PM, Lee Pollock wrote:
On behalf of The Churchill Centre, I would like to offer some comments on the 
various recent messages regarding Jim Muller’s edition of The River War. I 
cannot speak directly for Jim and/or the publisher and certainly this work has 
been in process for a long time. That said, I hope we all recognize and 
remember what an enormous effort is involved in producing this.  The St. 
Augustine website aptly notes: Editor James W. Muller’s more than fifteen years 
of research adds thousands of new footnotes identifying people who figure in 
The River War, explaining Churchill’s references to other books and events, 
tracking down the original dispatches and illustrations, and establishing a 
text that encompasses all variations in previous editions. Jim has been working 
assiduously on this for some years, while teaching full-time as well as 
remaining involved in and highly supportive of many other things in the 
Churchill world, including the work of the Centre.  We are most grateful for 
his continued support. Again, I can’t speak specifically for either Jim or St. 
Augustine but I would caution against the thought that the long time frame is 
the publisher’s fault or that they have somehow been deliberately dragging this 
out.   The suggestion that there should be a change of publisher is easy to 
make but in a challenging publishing environment generally, this is a niche 
product and having someone else step up is easier said than done, even if that 
wer

Re: [ChurchillChat] River War Publication

[chateaustegosaurus]

I would love to buy a copy. I only hope I live long enough to do so.
Jonathan Hayes

  From: Lee Pollock 
 To: churchillchat@googlegroups.com 
 Sent: Monday, October 19, 2015 7:01 PM
 Subject: RE: [ChurchillChat] River War Publication
   
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{}#yiv3709950052 On behalf of The Churchill Centre, I would like to offer some 
comments on the various recent messages regarding Jim Muller’s edition of The 
River War.  I cannot speak directly for Jim and/or the publisher and certainly 
this work has been in process for a long time.  That said, I hope we all 
recognize and remember what an enormous effort is involved in producing this.  
The St. Augustine website aptly notes:  Editor James W. Muller’s more than 
fifteen years of research adds thousands of new footnotes identifying people 
who figure in The River War, explaining Churchill’s references to other books 
and events, track

Re: [ChurchillChat] River War Publication

[chateaustegosaurus]

So River War is still under copyright.
Jonathan Hayes

  From: Allen Packwood 
 To: "'churchillchat@googlegroups.com'"  
 Sent: Monday, October 19, 2015 9:06 AM
 Subject: RE: [ChurchillChat] River War Publication
   
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published material is 70 years from the date of the death of the author.    
Allen    

From: churchillchat@googlegroups.com [mailto:churchillchat@googlegroups.com]On 
Behalf Of chateaustegosau...@att.net
Sent: 19 October 2015 16:13
To: churchillchat@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [ChurchillChat] River War Publication    Not sure about British 
copyright laws but anything published in the US prior to 1923 is out of 
copyright and in the public domain.    Hillsdale College has been reprinting a 
lot of the official biography companion volumes.  Wonder if they'd be 
interested?    Jonathan Hayes    From: 'Mark Lowrey' via ChurchillChat 

To: churchillchat@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sunday, October 18, 2015 5:16 PM
Subject: Re: [ChurchillChat] River War Publication    Even a Taiwan bootleg 
edition  would suffice.        -Original Message-
From: Dave Turrell 
To: churchillchat 
Sent: Sun, Oct 18, 2015 7:01 pm
Subject: RE: [ChurchillChat] River War Publication It’s been going on for at 
least 11 years to my personal knowledge.  As the Texans might say, this would 
appear to be a publisher that is all hat and no cattle… or, as we Brits might 
prefer it, all mouth and trousers.   Their lesser known publication of Savrola 
remains equally ethereal.   My guess would be if Prof. Muller was paid to do 
the editing and annotation work then St. Augustine’s is pretty much 
bullet-proof in their choice as to when or if to publish it.    I see no 
reason, however, that the vanilla text of The River War should not be 
republished as is – I cannot imagine that St. Augustine’s bought the copyright 
to that.  If it can be done then it would be a great service to Churchill 
bibliography – the full text has not been published since the first edition of 
1899/1900.   Dave   From:churchillchat@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:churchillchat@googlegroups.com]On Behalf Of chateaustegosau...@att.net
Sent: Sunday, October 18, 2015 5:38 PM
To: ChurchillChat@googlegroups.com
Subject: [ChurchillChat] River War Publication   St. Augustine's Press still 
has The River War under "Forthcoming Books", yet still no publication date.  
This has been 

Re: [ChurchillChat] River War Publication

[chateaustegosaurus]

Not sure about British copyright laws but anything published in the US prior to 
1923 is out of copyright and in the public domain.
Hillsdale College has been reprinting a lot of the official biography companion 
volumes.  Wonder if they'd be interested?
Jonathan Hayes

  From: 'Mark Lowrey' via ChurchillChat 
 To: churchillchat@googlegroups.com 
 Sent: Sunday, October 18, 2015 5:16 PM
 Subject: Re: [ChurchillChat] River War Publication
   
Even a Taiwan bootleg edition  would suffice.  

-Original Message-
From: Dave Turrell 
To: churchillchat 
Sent: Sun, Oct 18, 2015 7:01 pm
Subject: RE: [ChurchillChat] River War Publication

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.yiv3532015907aolReplacedBody div.yiv3532015907WordSection1 {}It’s been going 
on for at least 11 years to my personal knowledge.  As the Texans might say, 
this would appear to be a publisher that is all hat and no cattle… or, as we 
Brits might prefer it, all mouth and trousers. Their lesser known publication 
of Savrola remains equally ethereal. My guess would be if Prof. Muller was paid 
to do the editing and annotation work then St. Augustine’s is pretty much 
bullet-proof in their choice as to when or if to publish it.  I see no reason, 
however, that the vanilla text of The River War should not be republished as is 
– I cannot imagine that St. Augustine’s bought the copyright to that.  If it 
can be done then it would be a great service to Churchill bibliography – the 
full text has not been published since the first edition of 1899/1900. Dave 
From: churchillchat@googlegroups.com [mailto:churchillchat@googlegroups.com] On 
Behalf Of chateaustegosau...@att.net
Sent: Sunday, October 18, 2015 5:38 PM
To: ChurchillChat@googlegroups.com
Subject: [ChurchillChat] River War Publication St. Augustine's Press still has 
The River War under "Forthcoming Books", yet still no publication date.  This 
has been going on for a donkey's years  -  has Prof. Muller considered dropping 
these people and going with some publisher who's actually willing to publish?  
It would seem that if he has a contract that St. Augustine's Press' lack of 
performance would be sufficient reason to abandon ship. Just a thought. 
Jonathan Hayes-- 
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[ChurchillChat] River War Publication

[chateaustegosaurus]

St. Augustine's Press still has The River War under "Forthcoming Books", yet 
still no publication date.  This has been going on for a donkey's years  -  has 
Prof. Muller considered dropping these people and going with some publisher 
who's actually willing to publish?  It would seem that if he has a contract 
that St. Augustine's Press' lack of performance would be sufficient reason to 
abandon ship.
Just a thought.
Jonathan Hayes

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Re: [ChurchillChat] River War

[chateaustegosaurus]

Well, I'm the eternal optimist.  But even so, if this publishing date does not 
materialize, Prof. Muller needs to get a new publisher.  Given the plethora of 
Churchilliana which floods the bookstalls, I wouldn't think that would be a 
difficulty.
Jonathan Hayes

  From: John McLeod 
 To: "churchillchat@googlegroups.com"  
 Sent: Thursday, July 16, 2015 5:29 PM
 Subject: [ChurchillChat] River War
   
The publisher's website in the past has listed a November release date for 
numerous years in the past.  Does anyone have information that this anything 
beyond a perennial placeholder?

Sent from my iPhone

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Re: [ChurchillChat] New Edition of River War

[chateaustegosaurus]

To say this is magnificent news is the understatement of the year.  I have no 
doubt that, since Prof. Muller has put this together, it will be definitive.  
We all owe him a large vote of thanks!
Jonathan Hayes

  From: Lee Pollock 
 To: churchillchat@googlegroups.com 
 Sent: Thursday, July 16, 2015 1:55 PM
 Subject: RE: [ChurchillChat] New Edition of River War
   
Here is the listing from St. Augustine’s Press, showing a November 
publication date.  http://www.staugustine.net/our-books/books/the-river-war   
Jim has worked on this with incredible dedication and persistence for a number 
years and it will be well worth the wait.  It will indeed be magisterial and 
Churchillians will be indebted to him for his efforts.  Lee PollockExecutive 
DirectorThe Churchill centrelpoll...@winstonchurchill.org   From: 
churchillchat@googlegroups.com [mailto:churchillchat@googlegroups.com] On 
Behalf Of chateaustegosau...@att.net
Sent: Thursday, July 16, 2015 3:03 PM
To: churchillchat@googlegroups.com
Subject: [ChurchillChat] Just Asking  Haven't heard anything regarding the fate 
of Prof. Muller's magisterial annotated River War for quite a while.  Did I 
miss anything?  Jonathan Hayes-- 
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[ChurchillChat] Just Asking

[chateaustegosaurus]

Haven't heard anything regarding the fate of Prof. Muller's magisterial 
annotated River War for quite a while.  Did I miss anything?
Jonathan Hayes

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Re: [ChurchillChat] Re: Churchill's farming activities

[chateaustegosaurus]

I believe there is a marmalade cat permanent resident at Chartwell, but what he 
really seemed to love was pigs saying they regarded you as equals.
I've never really been able to square this love of animals which he exhibited 
in later life with the joy he seems to have had with shooting every form of 
wildlife in My African Journey  -  which is a whacking good read, of course.
Jonathan Hayes

  From: PatFinn1940 
 To: churchillchat@googlegroups.com 
Cc: dpreey...@gmail.com 
 Sent: Friday, July 3, 2015 1:41 PM
 Subject: Re: [ChurchillChat] Re: Churchill's farming activities
   
 I would love to read Piers Brendon's book, when it does come out!

I hope it includes the story of the phone conversation between Churchill and 
Field Marshal Alanbrooke--when Churchill was laying in bed and wiggling his 
toe, and his cat bit it.   And Churchill yells out, 'Get off, you bloody 
fool!!'--and Alanbrooke hangs up the phone, thinking HE was the 'bloody fool'!! 
  

Churchill loved cats mostly, did he not?   I remember reading there was a cat 
keeping him company in his final days at Hyde Park Gate.

Pat Finnegan

On Friday, July 3, 2015 at 4:35:53 AM UTC-4, Allen wrote:
Of course, Piers Brendon is currently working on a book about Churchill and 
animals, which may touch on this.   From: church...@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:church...@ googlegroups.com]On Behalf Of Richard M. Langworth
Sent: 01 July 2015 20:55
To: church...@googlegroups.com ; dpre...@gmail.com
Subject: [ChurchillChat] Re: Churchill's farming activities David: Martin 
Gilbert Winston S. Churchill, Vols. 5 and 8, and Mary Soames'sA Daughter's Tale 
are laced with references. Since you are in Westerham you should dig up a copy 
of Percy Reid'sChurchill: Townsman of Westerham, which also covers farming 
episodes. Reid was a stringer for London newspapers who kept an eye on things 
at Chartwell. Scarce but maybe available on bookfinder.com.  Three specific 
articles: On Alice Bateman and Donkey Jack:http://winstonchurchill. 
hillsdale.edu/churchills- character-the-common-touch See also "Guarding 
Greatness," by 1946-47 bodyguard Ronald Golding:Finest Hour 143: https://www. 
winstonchurchill.org/ publications/finest-hour/ finest-hour-143/glimpses- 
guarding-greatness-part-iFinest Hour 144: https://www. winstonchurchill.org/ 
publications/finest-hour/ finest-hour-144/guarding- greatness WSC to Lloyd 
George: "I am going to make my farm pay, whatever it costs,"Churchill in His 
Own Words, 517.http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/ 0091933366/?tag=richmlang-20  -- 
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[ChurchillChat] Churchill's Mauser Pistol

[chateaustegosaurus]

WSC carried a Mauser C96 pistol at Omdurman.  There's a very interesting 
youtube on this gun:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZzqbJeDHK64

Jonathan Hayes

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Re: [ChurchillChat] Quote from Steven Pinker's "The Better Angels of Our Nature"

[chateaustegosaurus]

If you want to twist some public person's words to mean whatever you want, it's 
pretty easy to do.  As far as "moral limitations by modern standards" I would 
say "modern standards" have as much relation to any respectable standard of 
morality as astrology has to astronomy.

Jonathan Hayes




 From: Gregory B. Smith 
To: churchillchat@googlegroups.com 
Sent: Friday, October 10, 2014 12:17 PM
Subject: [ChurchillChat] Quote from Steven Pinker's "The Better Angels of Our 
Nature"
 


“On the other side of the Atlantic, the young Winston Churchill wrote of taking 
part in “a lot of jolly little wars against barbarous peoples” in the British 
Empire. In one of those jolly little wars, he wrote “we proceeded 
systematically, village by village, and we destroyed the houses, filled up the 
wells, blew down the towers, cut down the shady trees, burned the crops and 
broke the reservoirs in punitive devastation.” Churchill defended these 
atrocities on the grounds that “Aryan stock is bound to triumph,” and he said 
he was “strongly in favor of using poisoned gas against uncivilized tribes.” He 
blamed the people of India for a famine caused by British mismanagement because 
they kept “breeding like rabbits,” adding “I hate Indians. They are a beastly 
people with a beastly religion.” “
The above paragraph is taken verbatim from page 658 of Stephen Pinker’s 
recently published (2011) masterful work on the decline of violence The Better 
Angels of our Nature which I have just finished reading. He cites Toyes’ book 
Churchill’s Empire and an August 12, 2010 New York Times article by J. Hari as 
his sources.
Pinker purports to examine the mindset of historical figures showing their 
moral limitations by modern standards. 
Too bad he didn’t bother to consult www.winstonchurchill.org or back issues of 
Finest Hour where these out-of-context quotes have been shown most decidedly 
not to be reflections on Churchill’s morality. The battle continues

Gregory B. Smith



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Re: [ChurchillChat] River War - Annotated Edition

[chateaustegosaurus]

Well, if nothing else I suppose we can discuss it with WSC himself in the next 
world.





 From: Dave Turrell 
To: churchillchat@googlegroups.com 
Sent: Wednesday, March 5, 2014 11:16 AM
Subject: RE: [ChurchillChat] River War  -  Annotated Edition
 


 
St. Augustine’s Press currently has the release date as being August 2014,
but I think their site is programmed to automatically push the date out by six
months every six months.  They’ve been doing that since Adam was a lad.
 
On the bright side I note that the world’s
oldest person just turned 116, so there may yet be hopes for the likes of you
and I not only to read this one, but also the last seven documentary volumes of
the ‘official’ biography.
 
Cheers,
 
Dave
 


 
From:churchillchat@googlegroups.com [mailto:churchillchat@googlegroups.com] On 
Behalf Of chateaustegosau...@att.net
Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2014 8:23
PM
To: Churchillchat@googlegroups.com
Subject: [ChurchillChat] River War
- Annotated Edition
 
Apparently Prof. Muller's annotated edition has been
published.  Does anyone know where I might purchase one?  I've been
eagerly awaiting this and would like to be able to peruse it before I shuffle
off this mortal coil.
 
Churchillian
regards,
 
Jonathan Hayes
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[ChurchillChat] River War - Annotated Edition

[chateaustegosaurus]

Apparently Prof. Muller's annotated edition has been published.  Does anyone 
know where I might purchase one?  I've been eagerly awaiting this and would 
like to be able to peruse it before I shuffle off this mortal coil.

Churchillian regards,

Jonathan Hayes

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Re: [ChurchillChat] Must-watch video for Churchillians

[chateaustegosaurus]

Worked for me and a great story - there's a Churchillian for you!





 From: "totten...@comcast.net" 
To: churchillchat@googlegroups.com 
Sent: Sunday, March 2, 2014 6:59 AM
Subject: Re: [ChurchillChat] Must-watch video for Churchillians
 


Link didn't work ...
- Original Message -
From: David Freeman 
To: Churchill Chat 
Sent: Fri, 28 Feb 2014 19:18:51 - (UTC)
Subject: [ChurchillChat] Must-watch video for Churchillians
Colleagues,
 
Here is link to wonderful USA today story about Barry Singer and his Chartwell 
Bookseller store:
http://www.usatoday.com/story/life/books/2014/02/27/chartwell-booksellers-winston-churchill/5871621/
 
David
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Re: [ChurchillChat] Centenary of the Great War: Let the Spin Begin

[chateaustegosaurus]

One thing which I've heard from Euros in the past is criticism of the length of 
time it took for America to get into WWI and I expect there will be more of it. 
They forget that there has always been (and still is) a strong and justified 
strand of isolationism in America.  After all, millions of people came here to 
escape the militarism, wars and authoritarianism in Europe.  Why would we want 
to have gotten ourselves back into the Euros' messes?  We didn't start either 
WWI or WWII.  It was only when it got to the extent that it was affecting us 
that we intervened.  No reason to earlier.

Jonathan Hayes





 From: "Editor, Finest Hour" 
To: churchillchat@googlegroups.com 
Sent: Sunday, January 5, 2014 6:20 AM
Subject: [ChurchillChat] Centenary of the Great War: Let the Spin Begin
 


I didn't expect to find myself agreeing with Labour's Shadow Education 
Secretary, but take a gander at his screed and see what you think:

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jan/04/first-world-war-michael-gove-left-bashing-history


We're going to be reading a lot of silly nonsense about World War I in the next 
year or two, and Hunt's preemptive strike is a salutary warning.

Hunt's piece recalls a poetic answer to Eric Bogle's famous poem "Willie 
McBride," written by Stephen Suffet in 1997:

"Ask the people of Belgium or Alsace-Lorraine,
If my life was wasted, if I died in vain.
I think they will tell you when all's said and done,
They welcomed this boy with his tin hat and gun."


Full text at: http://richardlangworth.com/mcbride


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Re: [ChurchillChat] Re:Bow Tie Club UK

[chateaustegosaurus]

Dear Mr. Miller:

I was for many years, until I retired and moved away, a staunch member of the 
Seattle (Washington State, USA) Bow Tie Club.  The current President is William 
Maschmeier (wmaschme...@usa.net).  You may wish to establish reciprocal 
relationships.

I expect to be in Blighty in the new year, and will let you know when that is.  
If it would coincide with a Club meeting, I would feel privileged to join you.

"The advantage of a bow tie is it will never fall into your soup.  The 
disadvantage is you have to keep your shirt front buttoned."

Best regards,

Jonathan Hayes
Chairman, American Branch, Richard III Society
Vice President, Richard III Society (UK)





 From: BOB MILLER 
To: churchillchat@googlegroups.com 
Cc: julia.wes...@wcmt.org.uk; allen.packw...@chu.cam.ac.uk; 
archi...@chu.cam.ac.uk; howardbi...@btinternet.com 
Sent: Friday, November 29, 2013 11:40 AM
Subject: [ChurchillChat] Re:Bow Tie Club UK
 


Dear Barry 

The above club meets for luncheon tomorrow [Sir Winston's birth] at The 
Churchill Hotel, Portman Square, London W.

Any member who wears a daytime bow [self-tie] who wishes to join the club 
should contact me,

Yours sincerely,


  
Robert Miller
One Old School Field
Springfield Green,
Essex
CM1 7HU
07787535881


-Original Message-
From: Editor, Finest Hour 
To: churchillchat 
Sent: Fri, 29 Nov 2013 18:03
Subject: [ChurchillChat] Re: Churchill’s Watch


Posted on behalf of Barry Singer:
Your email inquiry about Winston Churchill’s watch was forwarded to me by 
churchillchat group. 

According to Emanuel Breguet, current Directeur of Breguet, whom I spoke to 
directly about this, Churchill’s pocket watch, known as “The Turnip,” was “a 
rare N° 765, minute-repeating split-seconds chronograph bought in 1890 by “the 
Duke of Marlborough” (uncle of Sir Winston).”

Thanks to your close attention, I see that I erroneously rendered the Duke of 
Marlborough in 1890 as Churchill’scousin. He was, in fact, Churchill’s uncle 
(the 8th Duke of Marlborough, George Charles Spencer-Churchill).

However, Breguet’s records are clear that the watch does not go back to 1818 
and the 4th Duke (who, in fact, I note, died in 1817). I believe that the 
Churchill Museum is quite wrong as well. 

Personally, I will fix my mistake in the next edition of CHURCHILL STYLE.

Thanks you very much for bringing this to my attention.

Best wishes,
 
Barry Singer 
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[ChurchillChat] WSC and Ike address the troops

[chateaustegosaurus]

I've recently been told that local lore has it that Churchill and Eisenhower 
addressed a large assembly of troops in a natural amphitheater in Ovington, 
Hampshire in May, 1944.  There's nothing in the official history or Churchill's 
memoirs that could confirm it.  Does any group member know whether such an 
event took place?  My own suspicion is that it didn't.

Best Churchillian regards,

Jonathan Hayes

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[ChurchillChat] Chris Matthews

[chateaustegosaurus]

Look, can we have a moratorium on Mr. Matthews?  No-one is more deprecatory of 
Mr. Matthew's far left views than I, but from all indications, Mr. Matthews is 
a Churchill supporter, so let's leave it at that .  He certainly has a right to 
his views on other subjects and we should not excoriate him on this chat 
session because of that.  I would feel rather hurt if I were to be excluded 
simply because I feel Veuve Cliquot and Remy Martin are much superior to Pol 
Roger and Hine.

Jonathan Hayes

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[ChurchillChat] Finest Hour - Winter

[chateaustegosaurus]

An excellent (as always) production.  I especially enjoy the comparisons of 
Churchill and Napoleon.  I wonder if part of Churchill's interest in Napoleon 
was not only Napoleon as "a man of action", but one with a tremendous work 
ethic which he also possessed?  Both were certainly prodigious workers - to an 
extent which leaves us mere mortals gasping.

The pedant in me cannot, however, resist pointing out a mild erratum in Allen 
Packwood's piece.  Hohenlinden was not a Napoleonic battle.  The French general 
was Moreau.  Admittedly, Napoleon ordered Moreau into action, but the campaign 
was really Moreau's.

Jonathan Hayes

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Re: [ChurchillChat] Groucho Marx talking about Winston Churchill

[chateaustegosaurus]

It's Groucho Marx  -  who cares whether it's true or not?

Jonathan Hayes





From: David Freeman 
To: Churchill Chat 
Sent: Wed, November 28, 2012 8:11:58 PM
Subject: [ChurchillChat] Groucho Marx talking about Winston Churchill


Colleagues,
 
I don't know how much, if any, of this is true, but it is an amusing clip to 
watch.  Groucho Marx discusses meeting Mary Churchill and talking about her 
father:
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Dk1EKESoQY 
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Re: [ChurchillChat] "OMG!" Was Fisher the first to use term in letter to Churchill?

[chateaustegosaurus]

I think this is a bit of Fisher humor.  It appears to be a play on the Order of 
St. Michael and St. George, which has three ranks: Companion (CMG), Knight 
Commander (KCMG) and Knight Grand Cross (GCMG).  These initials were commonly 
translated as CMG - "Call Me God",  KCMG - "Kindly Call Me God" and GCMG - "God 
Calls Me God".  So, of course, OMG - "Oh My God"; what else would it be?

Actually a bit of a hoot.  Hadn't realized Jackie had a sense of humor.

Jonathan Hayes





From: Stan A. Orchard 
To: churchillchat@googlegroups.com
Sent: Thu, August 16, 2012 1:13:55 PM
Subject: Re: [ChurchillChat] "OMG!" Was Fisher the first to use term in letter 
to Churchill?

 
There is a bit of a parallel between telegrams of the  late-nineteenth and 
early 
twentieth centuries and Twitter messages of  today.  The Twitter message has 
developed various contracted forms of  words and  phrases because the message 
is 
strictly limited to a certain  number of characters.  Telegrams were not 
limited 
in size but became more  expensive with each added character.  So a similar 
convention arose decades  ago for contracting words, phrases and exclamations 
to 
lower the cost of sending  telegrams.  Who would have thought that Admiral 
Fisher and Paris  Hilton would have anything in common?
 
Stan
- Original Message - 
>From: DavidFreeman 
>To: Churchill Chat 
>Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2012 12:41PM
>Subject: [ChurchillChat] "OMG!" WasFisher the first to use term in letter 
>to 
>Churchill?
>
>
>Colleagues,
> 
>Please see the below link for the story:
> 
>http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-57494560-1/historys-first-omg-directed-at-winston-churchill/
>
> 
>Can anyone confirm this?  I can't find the letter in the  relevant 
>volume of the official biography companions, but Gilbert did  not 
>include all of Fisher's letters to Churchill.
> 
>It's a nice story if it's true.
>
>David  Freeman -- 
>You received this message because you are subscribed to theGoogle Groups 
>"ChurchillChat" group.
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>
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Re: [ChurchillChat] Re: WSC Goes Electronic

[chateaustegosaurus]

www.ManyBooks.net has Malakand Field Force, River War, London to Ladysmith, 
River War and Liberalism and the Social Problem for free download.  I have no 
idea about what editions these are.  www.gutenberg.org has, plus the above and 
more, South African Memories by Lady Sarah Wilson (WSC's aunt) which is a 
ding-dong good read.  In her day she was as famous as WSC.  Winston S. 
Churchill 
is the one you want. Winston Churchill is the American novelist.

Jonathan Hayes






From: David Turrell 
To: churchillchat@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wed, June 20, 2012 6:54:26 PM
Subject: [ChurchillChat] Re: WSC Goes Electronic

 
There appears to be a general perception that Churchill’s early works are in 
the 
public domain – Malakand,  London to Ladysmith, Ian Hamilton, and River War – 
and hence they are the ones mostly commonly pounced on by the print-on-demand 
vultures.
 
I cannot judge if this perception is accurate or not.  However, there is a very 
interesting exchange of letters in the Churchill archives which may cast some 
light.  See CHAR 8/274 120, 121 and 124.
 
Churchill, in July 1930, writes to Longmans Green indicating that he wishes to 
quote passages from those works in ‘My Early Life’ which was then in the later 
stages of composition.  He indicates that, since the works have long been out 
of 
print, the Longmans copyright may have expired but that in any case he is 
looking for their permission and coyly suggests that they might wish to return 
the rights to him.  He makes an offer of payment but, knowing WSC, it is 
clearly 
half-hearted at best.
 
Longmans respond that they are happy to transfer ‘such rights as we may have in 
the copyright to yourself. For this we should not like to ask any payment’. 

 
It seems, therefore, that Longmans actively relinquished their copyright back 
to 
WSC – but the key question is still whether, in 1930, they still retained any 
rights to relinquish. 

 
I would gladly quote the two letters in their entirety but, ironically, 
copyright considerations prevent me doing so.
 
Best,
 
Dave 
 


 
From:churchillchat@googlegroups.com [mailto:  churchillchat@googlegroups.com ] 
On Behalf Of Robert Courts
Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2012 5:05 AM
To: churchillchat@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [ChurchillChat] Re: WSC Goes Electronic
 
No, it isn't. I think I drew this to their attention about 10 years ago, but 
the 
result escapes me. But list members might like to just hold off on Gutenberg 
until we know. 
 
 
On 20 Jun 2012, at 08:53, Allen Packwood wrote:


Many thanks Robert. The copyright question would be one for Curtis Brown. the 
one thing I have learned is that it is never as straightforward as you think!
 
Allen
 


 
From:churchillchat@googlegroups.com [mailto: churchillchat@googlegroups.com ] 
On 
Behalf Of Raphael Saldanha
Sent: 19 June 2012 17:19
To: churchillchat@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [ChurchillChat] Re: WSC Goes Electronic
Oh! I'm sorry about the misleading link. Thanks for the correct one.
On Tue, Jun 19, 2012 at 1:14 PM, Robert Courts  wrote:
Allen is right about that, but these are our WSC: 
 
http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/author/1601
 
I've always wondered about the copyright position. 
 
These early books are available on the Amazon Kindle store, in fact. 
 
 
On 19 Jun 2012, at 17:07, Allen Packwood wrote:


I am afraid that this is the  US author Winston Churchill, not our Winston 
Spencer-Churchill.
 


 
From:churchillchat@googlegroups.com [mailto:churchillchat@googlegroups.com] On 
Behalf Of Raphael Saldanha
Sent: 19 June 2012 16:15
To: churchillchat@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [ChurchillChat] Re: WSC Goes Electronic
This appears to be a very nice project. But what can be said about the files 
available at the Project Gutenberg? http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/author/213 
Are they good sources?
On Tue, Jun 19, 2012 at 12:11 PM, Editor, Finest Hour  
wrote:
Jonathan: I had the pleasure of helping steer them to the right editions (not 
those edited Collected Works-Leo Cooper ones monkeyed with by Fred Woods), and 
Mark Weber found them inexpensive copies with true texts they could scan. The 
result will be Churchill's words as he signed off on them. Reported in full in 
Finest Hour 155/Summer. We cannot underestimate the importance of this step 
forward. Huge credit to Gordon Wise at Curtis Brown who drove the effort.
 
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-- 
Atenciosamente,

Raphael Salda

Re: [ChurchillChat] Re: WSC Goes Electronic

[chateaustegosaurus]

Excellent - very happy to know that.





From: "Editor, Finest Hour" 
To: churchillchat@googlegroups.com
Cc: ChurchillChat@googlegroups.com
Sent: Tue, June 19, 2012 8:12:11 AM
Subject: [ChurchillChat] Re: WSC Goes Electronic


Jonathan: I had the pleasure of helping steer them to the right editions (not 
those edited Collected Works-Leo Cooper ones monkeyed with by Fred Woods), and 
Mark Weber found them inexpensive copies with true texts they could scan. The 
result will be Churchill's words as he signed off on them. Reported in full in 
Finest Hour 155/Summer. We cannot underestimate the importance of this step 
forward. Huge credit to Gordon Wise at Curtis Brown who drove the effort.
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[ChurchillChat] WSC Goes Electronic

[chateaustegosaurus]

According to the Wall Street Journal this morning, Churchill's writings will 
soon be published in electronic form.  I have a sneaking suspicion he would 
approve.

Jonathan Hayes

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Re: [ChurchillChat] Re: Finest Hour - Action This Day

[chateaustegosaurus]

Boy, did everybody read me wrong.  Did I really muck it up that much or does 
every body have their blinkers on?

Jonathan Hayes





From: Johan Arve 
To: churchillchat@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sun, March 4, 2012 10:13:30 PM
Subject: Re: [ChurchillChat] Re: Finest Hour - Action This Day

It is somewhat amusing to hear these justifications for the blockade, since 
they 
exactly parallell those the Germans made when invading Belgium. They've been 
excoriated for it ever since.


On Mon, Mar 5, 2012 at 7:09 AM,  wrote:

I stand by my comments, Mr. McMenamin.  War is war  -  it is not a vicar's 
garden party.  Inter arma leges silent as the Romans used to say.  

>
>Do you really believe there is any such thing as "international law" when a 
>country believes it is fighting for it's life?  I would point out that I was 
>just commenting on Mr. McMenamin's comment on the British blockade  -  nothing 
>else.  But, as long as he is plugging his book, why should I not plug mine?  
>NO 
>LILIES OR VIOLETS  -  Reminiscences of a Fighter Pilot, my story of my years 
>as 
>a U.S. Air Force fighter pilot between 1965 and 1976 - an "interesting time", 
>as 
>the Chinese put it, to be an Air Force fighter  pilot, is available on Amazon, 
>both US and UK in paperback and Kindle.
>
>By the way, Mr. McMenamin, I really liked your book, BECOMING WINSTON 
>CHURCHILL.  You really write well.
>
>War has no amenities.  War is the essence of violence.  Moderation in war is 
>imbecility.
>   Admiral Jackie Fisher
>
>You cannot qualify war in harsher terms than I will.  War is cruelty and you 
>cannot refine it.
>   General William T. Sherman  
>
>
>Jonathan Hayes
>
>

From: David Turrell 
>To: churchillchat@googlegroups.com
>Cc: m...@walterhav.com
>Sent: Sun, March 4, 2012 8:55:25 PM
>Subject: RE: [ChurchillChat] Re: Finest Hour - Action This Day
>
>
>Bravo.
>
>-Original Message-
>From: churchillchat@googlegroups.com [mailto:churchillchat@googlegroups.com]
>On Behalf Of mcmena...@walterhav.com
>Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2012 6:37 PM
>To: ChurchillChat
>Cc: m...@walterhav.com
>Subject: [ChurchillChat] Re: Finest Hour - Action This Day
>
>My editor at FINEST HOUR, the quarterly journal of The Churchill
>Centre, brought this to my attention and, ordinarily, I would not
>bother to respond to an unnecessary lecture on something I never
>implied, let alone wrote. But then I saw Mr. Downes' comment that he
>did not "know  what was written" and hence had no context for
>appreciating how off-base Mr. Hayes' condescending comments were. And
>historically inaccurate to boot.
>
>First, some context for Mr. Downes. I have been writing for quite some
>time in the pages of FH a serial biography of Churchill titled "Action
>This Day" where every quarter I spend 2,000 words describing what
>Churchill was doing or saying during that season 125, 100, 75 and 50
>years ago. It is a quite pleasant assignment and I enjoy reading
>speeches, letters and other documents as well as Churchill's Official
>Biography to find things about his life that aren't as well known as
>others.  For example, Mr. Hayes' out-of-context quote was taken from
>my Action This Day Winter 2012 column and in the '75 Years Ago'
>segment (Winter 1936-37) of that column, I wrote of Churchill having
>spent the day with his first love Pamela (Plowden) Lytton while his
>wife Clementine  was on a ski holiday in the Alps with their daughter
>Mary. All very innocent but sweet and I found it interesting because
>in research for my 2007 book on Churchill's coming of age BECOMING
>WINSTON CHURCHILL, THE UNTOLD STORY OF YOUNG WINSTON AND HIS AMERICAN
>MENTOR, I came across quite a few letters from Winston to Pamela which
>indicated their continuing affection for one another including a
>letter from Pamela in 1949 reminding Winston he had proposed to her 50
>years ago that day. Unfortunately, I missed that 1937 letter from
>Winston about their spending the day together so I made up for my
>earlier omission. More than you wanted to know Mr. Downes, I'm sure,
>but blame it on Mr. Hayes. And, of course, I get to plug my book.
>
>Second, the quote from my column by Mr. Hayes is incomplete. It was
>taken from the '100 Years Ago' segment (Winter, 1911-12) and is the
>last line from three paragraphs I wrote about  Churchill's concerns in
>his new post as First Lord of the Admiralty on German naval expansion.
>Two days after he and his wife were asssaulted in Belfast by a mob of
>Irish Protestants, Churchill gave a speech in Glasgow on the
>respective naval power of Britain and Germany where he attempted to
>explain why sea power to an island nation like Britain was a
>"necessity" whereas it was "more in the nature of a luxury" to a
>continental power like Germany. A well-intentioned attempt by
>Churchill but an unfortunate choice of words, especially as he wanted
>to persuade the Germans to agree to a "naval holiday" in 1913 where
>ne

Re: [ChurchillChat] Re: Finest Hour - Action This Day

[chateaustegosaurus]

I stand by my comments, Mr. McMenamin.  War is war  -  it is not a vicar's 
garden party.  Inter arma leges silent as the Romans used to say.  


Do you really believe there is any such thing as "international law" when a 
country believes it is fighting for it's life?  I would point out that I was 
just commenting on Mr. McMenamin's comment on the British blockade  -  nothing 
else.  But, as long as he is plugging his book, why should I not plug mine?  NO 
LILIES OR VIOLETS  -  Reminiscences of a Fighter Pilot, my story of my years as 
a U.S. Air Force fighter pilot between 1965 and 1976 - an "interesting time", 
as 
the Chinese put it, to be an Air Force fighter pilot, is available on Amazon, 
both US and UK in paperback and Kindle.

By the way, Mr. McMenamin, I really liked your book, BECOMING WINSTON 
CHURCHILL.  You really write well.

War has no amenities.  War is the essence of violence.  Moderation in war is 
imbecility.
   Admiral Jackie Fisher

You cannot qualify war in harsher terms than I will.  War is cruelty and you 
cannot refine it.
   General William T. Sherman  


Jonathan Hayes



From: David Turrell 
To: churchillchat@googlegroups.com
Cc: m...@walterhav.com
Sent: Sun, March 4, 2012 8:55:25 PM
Subject: RE: [ChurchillChat] Re: Finest Hour - Action This Day

Bravo.

-Original Message-
From: churchillchat@googlegroups.com [mailto:churchillchat@googlegroups.com]
On Behalf Of mcmena...@walterhav.com
Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2012 6:37 PM
To: ChurchillChat
Cc: m...@walterhav.com
Subject: [ChurchillChat] Re: Finest Hour - Action This Day

My editor at FINEST HOUR, the quarterly journal of The Churchill
Centre, brought this to my attention and, ordinarily, I would not
bother to respond to an unnecessary lecture on something I never
implied, let alone wrote. But then I saw Mr. Downes' comment that he
did not "know what was written" and hence had no context for
appreciating how off-base Mr. Hayes' condescending comments were. And
historically inaccurate to boot.

First, some context for Mr. Downes. I have been writing for quite some
time in the pages of FH a serial biography of Churchill titled "Action
This Day" where every quarter I spend 2,000 words describing what
Churchill was doing or saying during that season 125, 100, 75 and 50
years ago. It is a quite pleasant assignment and I enjoy reading
speeches, letters and other documents as well as Churchill's Official
Biography to find things about his life that aren't as well known as
others.  For example, Mr. Hayes' out-of-context quote was taken from
my Action This Day Winter 2012 column and in the '75 Years Ago'
segment (Winter 1936-37) of that column, I wrote of Churchill having
spent the day with his first love Pamela (Plowden) Lytton while his
wife Clementine was on a ski holiday in the Alps with their daughter
Mary. All very innocent but sweet and I found it interesting because
in research for my 2007 book on Churchill's coming of age BECOMING
WINSTON CHURCHILL, THE UNTOLD STORY OF YOUNG WINSTON AND HIS AMERICAN
MENTOR, I came across quite a few letters from Winston to Pamela which
indicated their continuing affection for one another including a
letter from Pamela in 1949 reminding Winston he had proposed to her 50
years ago that day. Unfortunately, I missed that 1937 letter from
Winston about their spending the day together so I made up for my
earlier omission. More than you wanted to know Mr. Downes, I'm sure,
but blame it on Mr. Hayes. And, of course, I get to plug my book.

Second, the quote from my column by Mr. Hayes is incomplete. It was
taken from the '100 Years Ago' segment (Winter, 1911-12) and is the
last line from three paragraphs I wrote about Churchill's concerns in
his new post as First Lord of the Admiralty on German naval expansion.
Two days after he and his wife were asssaulted in Belfast by a mob of
Irish Protestants, Churchill gave a speech in Glasgow on the
respective naval power of Britain and Germany where he attempted to
explain why sea power to an island nation like Britain was a
"necessity" whereas it was "more in the nature of a luxury" to a
continental power like Germany. A well-intentioned attempt by
Churchill but an unfortunate choice of words, especially as he wanted
to persuade the Germans to agree to a "naval holiday" in 1913 where
neither country would build any capital ships. The ever-sensitive
Germans did not react well. In fact, as you will read in my
forthcoming ATD Spring 2012 column, Churchill wrote a letter intended
for the Kaiser's eyes where he attempted to extract his foot from his
mouth for the "luxury fleet" comment.  So, here is the last sentence
from my column of which Mr. Hayes only quotes the last part. Pay close
attention, Mr. Hayes, to my punctuation as writers typically use it
for a reason ["colon-a punctuation mark (:) used after a word
introducing a quotation, explanation...", The American Heritage
Dictionary of the American Language, 5th Edition] :

[ChurchillChat] Finest Hour - Action This Day

[chateaustegosaurus]

Mr. McMenahim's article states "Only six years later, German civilians were 
dying of starvation as a consequence of the British fleet's successful blockade 
of German ports." as though that was something heinous.

Excuse me, Mr. McMenahim, but we are talking about war.  Those of us who have 
been in combat and have seen the "fall of shot and shell" have no illusions.  
Perhaps the continuation of the blockade after the Armistice is debatable - and 
there are certainly arguments on either side  -  but the blockade before that 
was perfectly proper.  War is very nasty, and properly so.  The British 
blockade 
was completely proper and the German civilian suffering was just would should 
occur in modern war.  


Sure am sorry 'bout that.  I don't like war any more than you do, but at least, 
having been there, I don't have any illusions about it.

Jonathan Hayes

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Re: [ChurchillChat] Sinews of Peace Significance and weight ?

[chateaustegosaurus]

It seems to have been an instance of "plausible deniability".  I would find it 
very difficult to believe that neither the US nor the British governments knew 
what he was going to say, but since he was a private citizen and not a 
governmental office holder (other than MP), they could say it was his private 
opinion, not official policy, etc., etc. and get away with it.

Jonathan Hayes






From: Tom Dennis 
To: churchillchat@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wed, February 8, 2012 2:47:18 PM
Subject: [ChurchillChat] Sinews of Peace Significance and weight ?

I am just finishing writing a presentation on Churchill and the thought came to
me about the significance and weight of Churchill's presentation "Sinews
of Peace".

His credibility at the time of this speech couldn't have been any better. How 
important was this speech ? Did the world and the United states need to hear
this speech ?

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[ChurchillChat] Churchill-related eBooks

[chateaustegosaurus]

"South African Memories" by Lady Sarah Wilson, WSC's aunt is available for free 
download at gutenberg.org and is a jolly good read.   The Boer War from the 
other side of South Africa than where WSC was.  Quite a feisty lady!

The Malakand Field Force and River War are also available for free download.

Jonathan Hayes

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Re: [ChurchillChat] Yet Another Churchill Quote?

[chateaustegosaurus]

That sounds very un-Churchillian to me.  Both his physical and moral courage 
were of very high calibre.

Jonathan Hayes





From: Stan A. Orchard 
To: ChurchillChat 
Sent: Sat, January 21, 2012 1:57:30 PM
Subject: [ChurchillChat] Yet Another Churchill Quote?

 
With recent events in Italy the  following quote (below) is being circulated 
widely on the internet.   However, even though I know that I've come across it 
before somewhere I have  been unable to quickly find this quote in various 
quote 
books.  It  seems like a rather undiplomatic thing for Churchill to have said 
to 
Italian  journalists, but it sounds like something he might have said back in  
England.   
 
Stan
 
 
After his retirement he  was cruising the Mediterranean on an Italian cruise 
liner. 


Some Italian  journalists asked why an ex British Prime Minister should chose 
an 
Italian ship. 


“There are three things I like about being on an Italian cruise ship”  said 
Churchill. 


“First the cuisine is unsurpassed." 

"Second the  service is superb." 

"And then, in time of emergency, there is none of  this nonsense about women 
and 
children first”. 

 
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Re: [ChurchillChat] Re: Cita Stelzer

[chateaustegosaurus]

Well, I figured that Canadians would have the sophisticated discernment to 
appreciate true quality writing.

And as Churchill wrote to his mother (this may not be 100% correct).  "This is 
a 
pushing age and we must push as hard as we can."

I've ordered Cita Stelzer's book.

Jonathan Hayes





From: Terry Reardon 
To: churchillchat@googlegroups.com
Sent: Thu, December 15, 2011 2:29:56 PM
Subject: Re: [ChurchillChat] Re: Cita Stelzer

 
>From another of the former Colonies.
Amazon Canada shows the paperback to be released on  February 2nd, 2012.
Your volume, Jonathan, is, of course , also  available, north of the border.
Terry Reardon
 
 
- Original Message - 
>From: chateaustegosau...@att.net 
>To: churchillchat@googlegroups.com 
>Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2011 3:53PM
>Subject: Re: [ChurchillChat] Re: CitaStelzer
>
>
>You can get it now at www.amazon.co.uk.  I've ordered many books from them
>and they have no problem in shipping to the former colonies.  Myrecently 
>published book, No Lilies orViolets, is also available from amazon.co.uk, 
>as 
>well asamazon.com.  (Shameless self-promotional plug).
>
>Bestregards,
>
>Jonathan Hayes
>
>
>
>

 From: PatFinn1940 
>To: ChurchillChat
>Sent: Thu, December 15, 2011 9:59:57AM
>Subject: [ChurchillChat]Re: Cita Stelzer
>
>Oh, this sounds like an excellent read! Just to see the menus would
>be worth buying the book!!  When might itbe available in the US?
>
>Pat Finnegan
>
>On Dec 15, 3:55 am,"Allen Packwood" 
>wrote:
>>Dear all,
>> Corresponding with Cita Stelzer on a separate issueyesterday, reminded
>> me that her new book, Dinner with Churchill, hasjust been published in
>> the UK and has been on the Evening Standard'sbest seller list these
>> past weeks. It is a fascinating look atChurchill's life from an
>> entirely different angle: his personaldiplomacy at the dinner table
>> where he used his formidable gifts ofconviviality, intelligence,
>> humour, memory, anecdotal ability,hospitality all of which helped him
>> to charm and ultimately topersuade his allies of his strategic
>> policies.
>> Cita's bookcontains many anecdotes, menus, seating plans and photos,
>> many ofwhich have never been seen before, many found in our Archives.
>> It's avery good read and perhaps particularly at a time of feasting and
>> overindulgence.
>>
>> Allen
>
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Re: [ChurchillChat] Re: Cita Stelzer

[chateaustegosaurus]

You can get it now at www.amazon.co.uk.  I've ordered many books from them and 
they have no problem in shipping to the former colonies.  My recently published 
book, No Lilies or Violets, is also available from amazon.co.uk, as well as 
amazon.com.  (Shameless self-promotional plug).

Best regards,

Jonathan Hayes





From: PatFinn1940 
To: ChurchillChat 
Sent: Thu, December 15, 2011 9:59:57 AM
Subject: [ChurchillChat] Re: Cita Stelzer

Oh, this sounds like an excellent read!   Just to see the menus would
be worth buying the book!!   When might it be available in the US?

Pat Finnegan

On Dec 15, 3:55 am, "Allen Packwood" 
wrote:
> Dear all,
> Corresponding with Cita Stelzer on a separate issue yesterday, reminded
> me that her new book, Dinner with Churchill, has just been published in
> the UK and has been on the Evening Standard's best seller list these
> past weeks. It is a fascinating look at Churchill's life from an
> entirely different angle: his personal diplomacy at the dinner table
> where he used his formidable gifts of conviviality, intelligence,
> humour, memory, anecdotal ability, hospitality all of which helped him
> to charm and ultimately to persuade his allies of his strategic
> policies.
> Cita's book contains many anecdotes, menus, seating plans and photos,
> many of which have never been seen before, many found in our Archives.
> It's a very good read and perhaps particularly at a time of feasting and
> over indulgence.
>
> Allen

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[ChurchillChat] Christmas, 1941 - directions

[chateaustegosaurus]

Clicking on the link ain't going to work; you have to type the whole thing in - 
including the spaces indicated.  Bit of a nuisance.

Jonathan Hayes

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[ChurchillChat] Christmas, 1941

[chateaustegosaurus]

In case you haven't heard this.  Download it and play it for your family on 
Christmas Eve.

http://www.otr.com/ra/christmas/1941-12-24 MBS White House Christmas Tree 
Ceremony.mp3

Jonathan Hayes

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Re: [ChurchillChat] British High Commissioner on hand to launch Churchill Society in Ottawa

[chateaustegosaurus]

Somehow when I see the word "launch", I always think of smacking a bottle of 
champagne across the bow.  Hope that didn't happen in Ottawa.

Best Churchillian wishes to Ottawa  -  we're thrilled to have you on board!

Jonathan Hayes





From: John David Olsen 
To: ChurchillChat@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wed, December 7, 2011 6:47:41 PM
Subject: [ChurchillChat] British High Commissioner on hand to launch Churchill 
Society in Ottawa


Churchill Archives Centre and The Churchill Centre's Allen Packwood interviewed 
before speaking to the newest chapter of the Churchill Centre in Ottawa.

High Commissioner Helps Launch Churchill Society in Ottawa http://bit.ly/sB5CPa


-- 

---
JOHN DAVID OLSEN
Dir of Communications
+1-323-655-1800---
Please join The Churchill Centre and help preserve the thoughts, words and 
deeds 
of Winston Churchill for future generations. Members receive our quarterly, 
Finest Hour journal, our monthly e-newsletter Chartwell Bulletin, invitations 
to 
events. Ring us on 1-888-WSC-1874 or visit our website.
---
The Churchill Centre and Museum at the Churchill War Rooms, London
www.winstonchurchill.org

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[ChurchillChat] Churchill in the News

[chateaustegosaurus]

I noticed a headline in the Daily Telegraph  -  "Winston Churchill made history 
- David Cameron never will".  Leaving aside the article content - which I 
wasn't 
interested in anyway - I had to take note that almost 50 years after his death, 
WSC is still headline material.  As Churchill Centre members, this may not be 
surprising to us, but I would venture to suggest that it should be.

Why should someone like WSC still be star quality after all this time?  Yes, we 
all know, but we should take the time to reflect on the WHY, consider what 
those 
enduring qualities were, and work to have them reflected in the current day.  
Don't ask "what Churchill would do"  -  as Lady Soames so trenchantly observes, 
that's stupid.  Ask what are the principles he would act on?  We may feel that 
he was wrong on occasion, but NEVER dishonorable.  That's what should be 
striven 
for.

Just my little half-farthing.

Jonathan Hayes

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[ChurchillChat] Churchill Quote

[chateaustegosaurus]

I was reading an article in which WSC was quoted:  "the Balkans produce more 
history than they can consume."

Felicitous turn of phrase!  But  -  is it real?  If so, where did he say it?

Jonathan Hayes

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Re: [ChurchillChat] Re: Author Put-down

[chateaustegosaurus]

I could easily be wrong on who it was.  These type of stories have a habit of 
attaching themselves to all sorts of people.  Still, the family may have 
thought 
it was funny - it is the type of thing which is funny well afterward, but I 
wonder what WSC thought?

Jonathan





From: "Editor, Finest Hour" 
To: ChurchillChat 
Sent: Sat, November 12, 2011 5:41:26 AM
Subject: [ChurchillChat] Re: Author Put-down

Jonathan, Are we sure this was Lord Londonderry? Have always thought
it was Edward VIII, later Duke of Windsor.

Sarah Churchill reports in her THREAD IN THE TAPESTRY (41): “... my
father received a note from a friend of royal lineage which said:
'Dear Winston, Thank you for your book, I have put it on the shelf
with the others.' The family, on being told this by my mother,
collapsed in laughter. It evoked for us the famous story of what
George III, the then Duke of Gloucester, is supposed to have said to
Mr Gibbon: 'Another damned thick square book! Always scribble,
scribble, eh Mr Gibbon?'"

Note her description of “a friend of royal lineage.”

Manchester in his LAST LION vol. II apparently mixed this up when he
said (p18) that the remark was from the Duke of Gloucester.

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[ChurchillChat] Author Put-down

[chateaustegosaurus]

I've recently published my own book - which has nothing to do with WSC which is 
why I haven't posted it on the listserv.  I don't like to go off-topic.

But it got me thinking about a probably apocryphal Churchill story.  It seems 
WSC sent a copy of one of his books to his cousin, Lord Londonderry, and 
received the following reply:

"My dear Winston, I have received the copy of your latest book.  I have put it 
on the shelf beside the others."

Ouch!  If you really want to slam an author, that's how to do it.  "I didn't 
read it, I'm not going to read it, I just filed it."

Jonathan Hayes

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Re: [ChurchillChat] Re: Accomplices : Churchill, Roosevelt and the Holocaust

[chateaustegosaurus]

The horrors of the Holocaust were certainly real, but one has to ask the 
question, what COULD have been done?  And, realistically, the answer has to be 
- not much.  The Holocaust occurred in the geographic middle of the Nazi 
empire, well away from any possible military action.  Those suggesting bombing 
of the camps are unaware of the high level of inaccuracy of Allied bombing 
(Robin Olds said he flew some photo recce missions of bomb damage and that he 
felt the safest place to fly during the strike was right over the target).  We 
would have probably killed an awful lot of camp inmates without any positive 
results had we done any bombing.  While the Allies were aware of what was going 
on, the high command realistically knew they could do nothing as a practical 
matter, and what would be the result of publicizing the situation?  Probably 
intense political pressure to "DO something" even if it would have negative 
results.

War has a lot of very unpleasant decisions; I've known Holocaust survivors and 
they certainly went through unbelievable HELL,  but what could have been 
REALISTICALLY done?  I hate to say it, but the decisions taken were - given 
what was known at the time - probably the right ones.

Jonathan Hayes

--- On Sun, 8/14/11, Lincoln  wrote:

From: Lincoln 
Subject: [ChurchillChat] Re: Accomplices : Churchill, Roosevelt and the 
Holocaust
To: "ChurchillChat" 
Date: Sunday, August 14, 2011, 1:02 PM

Yet another disaffected Jewish person obsessed with the 'wrongs' that
so-called Christian countries have perpetrated against his people.
Having no one left to blame, he decides to round on the men who
actually did most to free these people from the monstrous persecution
that had come upon them. How disgusting ingratitude is!

On Aug 13, 5:35 am, David Freeman  wrote:
> The $85 dollar price should be sufficient to deter most readers from 
> re-visiting such ancient and long-exposed myths.
>
> --- On Sat, 8/13/11, Antoine Capet  wrote:
>
> From: Antoine Capet 
> Subject: [ChurchillChat] Accomplices : Churchill, Roosevelt and the Holocaust
> To: ChurchillChat@googlegroups.com
> Date: Saturday, August 13, 2011, 12:02 AM
>
> Dear all,
>
> The latest book in the field (below) has just appeared (July 2011).
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Professor Antoine Capet, FRHistS
> Head of British Studies
> University of Rouen
> Mont-Saint-Aignan 76821 (France)
>
> 'Britain since 1914' Editor,
> Royal Historical Society Bibliography
> antoine.ca...@univ-rouen.fr
>
> Reviews Editor of Cercleshttp://www.cercles.com/review/reviews.html
> =
>
> Groth, Alexander J.
> Accomplices : Churchill, Roosevelt and the Holocaust
>
> New York, Bern, Berlin, Bruxelles, Frankfurt am Main, Oxford, Wien: Berg, 
> 2011. XII, 293 pp.
> Studies in Modern European History. Vol. 67
> General Editor: Frank J. Coppa
> ISBN 978-1-4331-1463-2 hb.
> US$ 85.95
>
> This volume asserts that there was tacit cooperation in the Nazi 
> extermination of the Jewish population of Europe by British Prime Minister
> Winston Churchill and American President Franklin D. Roosevelt during the 
> Second World War. Although the Allies publicly recognized the
> Nazi massacre of the Jews in the London Declaration of December 17, 1942, the 
> policies they pursued allowed the genocide to continue. They
> did so, the author claims, in three ways: (1) refusal to publicly and 
> personally speak about and against the Nazi extermination of the Jews; (2)
> refusal to commit even one soldier, one plane, or one warship to any forcible 
> opposition to the «Final Solution» throughout the Second World
> War; and (3) obstruction of Jewish escape from Hitler's Europe. This book 
> explores the motivation for the policies Churchill and Roosevelt
> pursued.
>
> Alexander J. Groth is a Holocaust survivor, most of whose family perished 
> during the Nazi «Final Solution.» He received his PhD from Columbia
> University and his BA magna cum laude from the City College of New York. He 
> is Emeritus Professor of Political Science at the University
> of California, Davis, where he has taught since 1962, specializing in 
> comparative politics. Groth is the author and editor of numerous books
> including Comparative Politics (1971); People's Poland (1972); Public Policy 
> Across Nations (1985); Lincoln (1996); Democracies Against Hitler
> (1999); and, most recently, Holocaust Voices (2003).
>
> http://www.peterlang.com/download/datasheet/60414/datasheet_311463.pdf
>
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Re: [ChurchillChat] Re: Never Treacherous

[chateaustegosaurus]

Another thing that I've been thinking about recently is Churchill's moral 
courage.  I think especially of his "blood, toil, tears and sweat" speech.  
He'd only been Prime Minister a few days.  There were many in his own party who 
distrusted him and felt Halifax should have been made PM; he depended on Labour 
and the Liberals for support.

But he didn't try to sugar-coat the situation or to pretend there would be any 
kind of a "soft landing"; he did not try to do anything other than put the true 
face on the matter.  He said it would be long and hard, and that there was no 
alternative to long and hard.  He did not try to blame others - though he could 
have.   He did not say "I told you so" - though he could have.

It was a dangerous speech to give.  He was still on shaky political ground and 
could easily have been rejected as the Chamberlain government had been.  But it 
was the right thing to say and he had the moral courage to say it, and the 
confidence in the British people that they would accept it.  And of course, 
with 20-20 hindsight we know now he was right.  

This is a Churchillian lesson which modern political leaders would be well 
advised to heed.  Unfortunately moral courage in today's political leaders is 
about as rare as hens' teeth.

Jonathan hayes

--- On Mon, 6/20/11, Lincoln  wrote:

From: Lincoln 
Subject: [ChurchillChat] Re: Never Treacherous
To: "ChurchillChat" 
Date: Monday, June 20, 2011, 1:01 AM

I'm as sure as I can be of anything that every major historical or
biographical work that deals with Winston Churchill as its major
subject has made at least one, usually several, references to the fact
that the man was chivalrous and magnanimous to a fault. This is borne
out by his speech to the House upon the death of Neville Chamberlain
(in which Churchill's generosity about a man who had tried repeatedly
to keep him out of government and had scorned him on many an occasion
is astounding), his generosity and near-adulation of Asquith - a man
who had abandoned Churchill over the Dardanelles affair; his knight-
errant championing of Edward in the abdication crisis; his suicidal
advocacy of Admiral Fisher's recall to the Admiralty in WW2 (and
unstinted praise of him) - after that serpentine ingrate's spectacular
apostasy and personal treachery over the Dardanelles mission; his
admiring essay on Lord Balfour - a man who had personally maligned
WSC; and numberless other instances in which he delivered glowingly
generous appraisals of figures who would ordinarily have merited
nothing but words of terse censure, and whose own treatment of WSC had
been anything but generous.

We have all knocked about in this world enough to have noticed that a
generous or magnanimous temperament is incompatible with a treacherous
one. That is a truism that needs neither explaining nor proving.
Winston Churchill was cast in heroic mould: his tastes, his
judgements, his aims, his actions, his failings and his strengths, and
above all, his motives - were all on a superlative, outsize scale. He
was a Titan - if anybody can be called that. Churchill had grandeur
and nobility in his nature. Something as base as 'treachery' is
impossible in such a man.

On Apr 23, 6:00 am, Perpetuo991  wrote:
> Beaverbrook wrote that Churchill, "was always free from rancor and
> never treacherous." Does anyone know of additional resources and
> examples that supports and augments this contention?

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Re: [ChurchillChat] Churchill x Dowding

[chateaustegosaurus]

If it hadn't been for Dowding, the Battle of Britain would have been lost.  It 
was Dowding who pushed the development of radar (Prof. Lindemann was opposed to 
it), it was Dowding who pushed the development and acquisition of the eight-gun 
fighter.  It was Dowding who established the command and control structure 
which was so crucial to the Battle, and it was Dowding who protested vehemently 
against denuding Fighter Command in the Battle of France.  And it was Dowding 
who formulated the strategy (ably executed by Keith Park) which resulted in 
success.
 
There were, howver, some senior people who were opposed to Dowding and he went 
on and off the retired list a couple of times before the Battle.  During the 
Battle, there were strong differences of opinion between Park at 11 Group and 
Leigh-Mallory (George Mallory of Everest fame's younger brother) at 12 Group.  
Leigh-Mallory was successful in his behind-the-scenes politicking with Air 
Staff and political figures.  Al Deere probably put it best:  Dowding and Park 
won the Battle of Britain, but they lost the battle of words that followed..."  
Dowding and Park were sand-bagged by Portal, Sholto Douglas and Leigh-Mallory.  
Both were treated very badly.
 
What did Churchill have to do with it?  Difficult to say.  Dowding saw 
Churchill and Churchill said he was surprised at what happened.  It is very 
difficult to imagine it could have happened without Churchill's knowledge and 
approval, BUT, as we well know, Churchill always insisted on every thing in 
writing and there's nothing on this.  So -  good question.  No answer.

Jonathan Hayes

--- On Fri, 4/1/11, Daniel Ibarra  wrote:


From: Daniel Ibarra 
Subject: [ChurchillChat] Churchill x Dowding
To: "Churchill Chat" 
Date: Friday, April 1, 2011, 1:15 PM






Coleagues from Churchill Chat,
 
In the dawn of the Battle of Britain Churchill "fired" Dowding from his post. I 
have seem some people considering this act of Churchill as a betrayal or a 
movement to get attention of the victory in the battle just for him, what I do 
not believe.
 
Can you pls help me to tell why Churchill fired Dowding on that moment?
 
Thank you
 
Daniel
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Re: [ChurchillChat] Churchill's old school in the news

[chateaustegosaurus]

Well, they probably would have liked it in Churchill's time.  And at least 
they're getting something for their 30,000 pounds.
 
Jonathan Hayes

--- On Thu, 3/31/11, David Freeman  wrote:


From: David Freeman 
Subject: [ChurchillChat] Churchill's old school in the news
To: "Churchill Chat" 
Date: Thursday, March 31, 2011, 10:25 AM







Collegues,
 
This may be off topic, but I can't help thinking that they didn't have these 
sorts of problems when Churchill was at Harrow:
 
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/8419093/Harrow-teacher-in-tears-after-pupils-find-topless-photos.html
 
Also worth noting that tuition at Churchill's alma mater is nearly 30,000 
pounds a year.
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Re: [ChurchillChat] Re: "Churchill Painting for Sale"

[chateaustegosaurus]

The painting is listed as C247 in David Coombs' book, Sir Winston Churchill's 
Life Through his Paintings, circa 1930, Pont du Gard.  Owned by Arabella 
Churchill and sold at Sotheby's, New York in 1981 for $10,000.
 
Jonathan Hayes

--- On Wed, 3/16/11, Antoine Capet  wrote:


From: Antoine Capet 
Subject: [ChurchillChat] Re: "Churchill Painting for Sale"
To: churchillchat@googlegroups.com
Date: Wednesday, March 16, 2011, 2:52 PM


Dear Mr Olsen,

Many thanks for this. I was particularly intrigued by the section on "Churchill 
Painting for Sale":

"The Churchill Centre has recently become aware of a large painting by Sir 
Winston Churchill, offered for sale for the first time in a number of years .  
.  . The seller has generously agreed to make a donation to The Churchill 
Centre if a member or friend purchases the painting".

https://www.winstonchurchill.org/support/the-churchill-centre/publications/chartwell-bulletin/2011/33-mar/1101-churchill-painting-for-sale

No title is given - but the picture looks very much like the Roman Aqueduct 
over the Gard River, South of France (the "Pont du Gard", as it known in 
French).

The intriguing bit is that the Aqueduct and the Gard area are somewhat removed 
from the luxury villas owned by Churchill's wealthy friends on the French 
Riviera (See the excellent book by F. Kersaudy, _Churchill and Monaco_, 
reviewed in a recent copy of _Finest Hour_).

Also, the article does not give any date.

Wikipedia mentions two prominent English-speaking visitors, Henry James and 
Hilaire Belloc - but not Winston Churchill:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pont_du_Gard

Any clue on what occasion this was painted ?


Best wishes,

A.C.




From: John David Olsen
Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2011 5:10 PM
To: ChurchillChat@googlegroups.com
Subject: [ChurchillChat] Chartwell Bulletin - March 2011


The latest edition of Chartwell Bulletin is now available!


http://tinyurl.com/4uf8hnb

-- 
---
JOHN DAVID OLSEN
Dir of Communications
+1-323-855-7595
---
Please join us as a member of The Churchill Centre and Museum and help us to 
impress Churchill's wisdom and relevance firmly on future generations.  You 
will enjoy our award winning quarterly, Finest Hour; our monthly e-newsletter, 
Chartwell Bulletin; illuminating material on our website, events in five 
countries, and discounts on books and memorabilia. Basic membership is $50 per 
year ($60 outside USA); students, teachers and active duty enlisted military, 
$25. Ring us on 1-888-WSC-1874 or use the secure membership form on our website.
---
The Churchill Centre and Museum at the Churchill War Rooms, London
www.winstonchurchill.org


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RE: [ChurchillChat] "I see little glory in an Empire which can rule the waves and is unable to flush its sewers".

[chateaustegosaurus]

For those unacquainted with wastewater treatment, sewers are not generally 
"flushed".  They are usually designed to gravity flow to the treatment plant, 
or, if gravity flow is not sufficient, pumping stations are included in the 
plan.  There is never any "flushing" as we would generally understand the 
term.  The undersigned has done a great number of wastewater 
treatment/sanitary/storm sewer financings during the course of his professional 
career and feels very strongly that there has been no greater contribution to 
civilized life or to the benefit of the environment than the proper treatment 
of effluent.  It ain't sexy and since the Sierra Club already has this stuff in 
place, they ain't going to care.
 
But Churchill had it right again!  An amazing guy!
 
Jonathan Hayes

--- On Wed, 2/23/11, Turrell, David A (Dave) 
 wrote:


From: Turrell, David A (Dave) 
Subject: RE: [ChurchillChat] "I see little glory in an Empire which can rule 
the waves and is unable to flush its sewers".
To: churchillchat@googlegroups.com
Date: Wednesday, February 23, 2011, 1:47 PM


Dear Antoine,

The review is reproduced in the same volume of the biography, directly
after the letter referenced below.  It is referred to as [?Unpublished]
so finding it elsewhere may be a challenge.  Let me know offlist if you
would like a scan of it.

I did double-check and the word 'own' does not appear in the printed
quotation.

Best

Dave

-Original Message-
From: churchillchat@googlegroups.com
[mailto:churchillchat@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Antoine Capet
Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2011 4:08 PM
To: churchillchat@googlegroups.com
Subject: [ChurchillChat] "I see little glory in an Empire which can rule
the waves and is unable to flush its sewers".

Dear Dave,

Many thanks for this. I had "I see little glory in an Empire which can
rule 
the waves and is unable to flush its OWN sewers" in my records, but with
no 
definite date.

I am intrigued by :

WSC had apparently been much stirred by reading Seebohm
> Rowntree's "Poverty: A Study of Town Life" which he subsequently
> reviewed.

Is the review reprinted anywhere - or, even better, on line somewhere ?

Incidentally, I use Rowntree's book a lot in my lecturing - a
fascinating 
survey and one of the first scholarly books to have colour in it. 
Unreservedly recommended for anyone interested in the "condition of
England" 
question c.1900 - as the young Churchill undoubtedly was.

Best,

Antoine Capet
Rouen, France

--
From: "Turrell, David A (Dave)" 
Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2011 9:46 PM
To: 
Subject: RE: [ChurchillChat] In need of assistance.

> This quote appears in a letter from WSC to J. Moore Bayley, December
> 23rd 1901.  WSC had apparently been much stirred by reading Seebohm
> Rowntree's "Poverty: A Study of Town Life" which he subsequently
> reviewed.
>
> "I see little glory in an Empire which can rule the waves and is
unable
> to flush its sewers".
>
> Quoted in Volume 3 of the Hillsdale "Churchill Documents", otherwise
> known as Volume 1 Companion Volume 3 of the Official Biography.
>
> Best,
>
> Dave
>
> -Original Message-
> From: churchillchat@googlegroups.com
> [mailto:churchillchat@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Perpetuo991
> Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2011 3:11 PM
> To: ChurchillChat
> Subject: [ChurchillChat] In need of assistance.
>
> Dear Churchillians,
>
> I am in need of a reference to a quotation, "there is very little
> glory in an Empire that can rule the waves but cannot flush her
> sewers." or something to that effect. Any assistance is greatly
> appreciated.
>
> Thank you,
>
> KTL
>
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[ChurchillChat] Cavalry charge

[chateaustegosaurus]

As Churchillians, I imagine we have at least a passing interest in cavalry 
charges, so I thought this obit might not be totally off-topic.
 
Jonathan Hayes
 
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obituaries/8334018/Mario-Traverso.html
 

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Re: [ChurchillChat] Re: The King's Speech

[chateaustegosaurus]

Edward III?  Wasn't he dead?
 
Jonathan Hayes

--- On Fri, 1/28/11, Stan A. Orchard  wrote:


From: Stan A. Orchard 
Subject: Re: [ChurchillChat] Re: The King's Speech
To: churchillchat@googlegroups.com
Date: Friday, January 28, 2011, 1:44 PM


It should be pointed out that the abdication crisis was not just a political 
problem.  Britain's reigning monarch is also the head of the Church of England, 
and the proposition of marrying a twice-divorced woman would have created a 
tremendous uproar within the church.  Even in Churchill's role as only a 
"flying buttress" of the church, he would almost certainly have recognized this 
fact and respected the church's position as well as forseen the consequences of 
trying to over-rule church doctrine.  Not many years later Princess Margaret 
was forbidden by Queen Elizabeth to marry a divorced commoner for these same 
reasons.  It doesn't seem to be such a big deal today.  Churchill must have 
held out some vain hope that Edward III would eventually come to his senses and 
comprehend and embrace his responsibilities as king.  Is it true that Churchill 
wrote the king's abdication speech?

Stan

- Original Message - From: "Quin nBastian" 
To: 
Sent: Friday, January 28, 2011 12:40 PM
Subject: RE: [ChurchillChat] Re: The King's Speech


> I have not seen 'the King's Speech yet but I am looking forward to doing so
> soon. As regards WSC's support of Wallis Simpson, the fact is that WSC was a
> royalist. I believe it is in the historical record that he was supportive of
> Edward and that included supporting him in his bid to marry Wallis Simpson.
> However, it must be remembered that at the time,  WSC knew little about
> Simpson's political leanings and was supporting his sovereign as a faithful
> servant.
> 
> Having said that, I agree that with the perspective of time and events WSC's
> comment at the coronation of his brother George VI, would have been
> referring to Edward VIII.
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: churchillchat@googlegroups.com [mailto:churchillchat@googlegroups.com]
> On Behalf Of Stan A. Orchard
> Sent: Friday, January 28, 2011 12:41 PM
> To: ChurchillChat
> Subject: Re: [ChurchillChat] Re: The King's Speech
> 
> Incidentally, there was a very interesting interview a couple of days ago on
> CNN with the 73-year-old American screenwriter of 'The King's Speech', David
> Seidler.  He was a child stutterer, not a historian, and has worked on this
> project for the past 25 years.  He believes that only a stutterer could have
> written the screenplay in just this way.
> http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/bestoftv/2011/01/25/exp.ps.kings.speech.stu
> tter.cnn?iref=allsearch.
> 
> It is very hard for me to believe that Winston Churchill could have ever
> considered Wallis Simpson to be a suitable or even tolerable addition to the
> Royal Family.  So in my opinion, Churchill must have been referring to
> Edward VIII in his comment to Clementine at the coronation since it
> otherwise seems to fly in the face of Churchill's seemingly life-long
> reverence for the institution, dignity and ritual of the British monarchy.
> 
> Stan
> 
> - Original Message - From: "Editor/Finest Hour" 
> 
> To: "ChurchillChat" 
> Sent: Friday, January 28, 2011 9:38 AM
> Subject: [ChurchillChat] Re: The King's Speech
> 
> 
>> Paul, thanks. Most sources I checked say WSC made this remark "during
>> the coronation," but Lady Soames in her CLEMENTINE CHURCHILL says he
>> made it as Queen Elizabeth (the later Queen Mum) was crowned--so I
>> think your interpretation that he was referring to Walllis could be
>> right. I
>> 
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>> 
>> 
> 
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Re: [ChurchillChat] Stalin vs. Churchill and Roosevelt

[chateaustegosaurus]

I didn't say they should have taken military action - that would have been 
obviously impossible.  The electorate in neither Britain or America would have 
stood for it.  But there was leverage.  We'll probably never know the full 
impact of Lend Lease on Russia, but it was significant.  Stalin was always 
afraid that Britain/United States would cut a deal with Hitler - just as 
WSC/FDR were afraid Stalin would do.  Britain went to war over Poland - and 
then abandoned them.
 
All of which is irrelevant.  The article's point is that Stalin made chumps out 
of both WSC and FDR.  I think the author makes a good case.
 
Jonathan Hayes

--- On Mon, 1/3/11, Carey Stronach  wrote:


From: Carey Stronach 
Subject: Re: [ChurchillChat] Stalin vs. Churchill and Roosevelt
To: churchillchat@googlegroups.com
Date: Monday, January 3, 2011, 8:43 PM



#yiv730383807 p {margin:0;}


What else could FDR and WSC do, start World War III just as World War II was 
ending? And how about the war in Asia? The atomic bomb had not been built and 
tested at this time, and they believed they needed Soviet help to defeat Japan.
CES 



- Original Message -
From: chateaustegosau...@att.net
To: churchillchat@googlegroups.com
Sent: Monday, January 3, 2011 11:34:57 PM
Subject: Re: [ChurchillChat] Stalin vs. Churchill and Roosevelt






Stalin was going to take it, no question.  But WSC and FDR didn't have to agree.
 
Jonathan Hayes

--- On Mon, 1/3/11, Carey Stronach  wrote:


From: Carey Stronach 
Subject: Re: [ChurchillChat] Stalin vs. Churchill and Roosevelt
To: churchillchat@googlegroups.com
Date: Monday, January 3, 2011, 5:23 PM



#yiv730383807 #yiv730383807yiv914715257 p {margin:0;}


Stalin also had the Red Army, with more than twice as many troops as the 
Americans, British & Canadians combined.
CES



- Original Message -
From: chateaustegosau...@att.net
To: ChurchillChat@googlegroups.com
Sent: Monday, January 3, 2011 5:51:48 PM
Subject: [ChurchillChat] Stalin vs. Churchill and Roosevelt






Check out http://www.historynet.com/stalin-the-puppetmaster.htm
 
Basically, it proposes that Stalin was a far better negotiator than either WSC 
or FDR and so was able to get everything he wanted without giving anything up.  
I found it a very interesting article.
 
Jonathan Hayes
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Re: [ChurchillChat] Stalin vs. Churchill and Roosevelt

[chateaustegosaurus]

Stalin was going to take it, no question.  But WSC and FDR didn't have to agree.
 
Jonathan Hayes

--- On Mon, 1/3/11, Carey Stronach  wrote:


From: Carey Stronach 
Subject: Re: [ChurchillChat] Stalin vs. Churchill and Roosevelt
To: churchillchat@googlegroups.com
Date: Monday, January 3, 2011, 5:23 PM



#yiv914715257 p {margin:0;}


Stalin also had the Red Army, with more than twice as many troops as the 
Americans, British & Canadians combined.
CES



- Original Message -
From: chateaustegosau...@att.net
To: ChurchillChat@googlegroups.com
Sent: Monday, January 3, 2011 5:51:48 PM
Subject: [ChurchillChat] Stalin vs. Churchill and Roosevelt






Check out http://www.historynet.com/stalin-the-puppetmaster.htm
 
Basically, it proposes that Stalin was a far better negotiator than either WSC 
or FDR and so was able to get everything he wanted without giving anything up.  
I found it a very interesting article.
 
Jonathan Hayes
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[ChurchillChat] Stalin vs. Churchill and Roosevelt

[chateaustegosaurus]

Check out http://www.historynet.com/stalin-the-puppetmaster.htm
 
Basically, it proposes that Stalin was a far better negotiator than either WSC 
or FDR and so was able to get everything he wanted without giving anything up.  
I found it a very interesting article.
 
Jonathan Hayes

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Re: [ChurchillChat] Re: Mail Online pictures : Defacing the Cenotaph, urinating on Churchill... how young thugs at student protest broke every taboo

[chateaustegosaurus]

To say this is really bad is an understatement.  I have no sympathy with them  
-  many an American family would be thrilled to only be paying L9,000 a year 
for college instead of the $50,000 which is becoming the norm here.
 
We really can't compare  -  in the '30s the Oxford Union debated "Resolved, we 
will not fight for King and Country", but they did anyway.  They also didn't 
riot and destroy property.  I work with the local Air Force Reserve Officers 
Training Corps and those young men and women are the finest our country has 
ever produced (I'm just glad I don't have to compete with them).  These young 
rioting thugs are, I sincerely believe, a minority.  And they'd better hope 
there's enough of those outstanding young men and women such as are in the 
AFROTC around to protect them if push ever really comes to shove.
 
Jonathan Hayes
--- On Sat, 12/11/10, PatFinn1940  wrote:


From: PatFinn1940 
Subject: [ChurchillChat] Re: Mail Online pictures : Defacing the Cenotaph, 
urinating on Churchill... how young thugs at student protest broke every taboo
To: "ChurchillChat" 
Date: Saturday, December 11, 2010, 8:42 AM


When I read this article, and saw the photos, I was absolutely
outraged.   It made me remember my own UK visit--where I photographed
both the Cenotaph and Mr Churchill's statue.   It's left me
heartbroken too.

Pat Finnegan

On Dec 10, 5:07 pm, "Antoine Capet"  wrote:
> Defacing the Cenotaph, urinating on Churchill... how young thugs at student
> protest broke every taboo
>
> Read more:
>
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1337315/TUITION-FEES-VOTE-PRO...

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[ChurchillChat] River War

[chateaustegosaurus]

I, of course, fully recognize Prof. Muller's most assiduous efforts and 
understand that publishers' time tables are measured in millenia, but would it 
be possible to have a progress report on the annotated River War?
 
I admire Prof. Muller's restraint.  At this point, I would be interviewing 
assassins with especial reference to their experience against publishers.
 
Jonathan Hayes

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[ChurchillChat] Bendor

[chateaustegosaurus]

Probably many of you already know this, but for the benefit of those who don't:
 
I've always been mildly intrigued by WSC's friend Bendor, Duke of 
Westminister.  "Bendor" sounds a bit odd to transatlantic ears, but then so do 
a lot of otther English names, so didn't give it further thought.
 
Until I was doing some heraldry research and came across the case of Scrope vs. 
Grosvenor in the Earl Marshal's Court circa 1390.  Who had the right to the 
coat of arms blazoned azure a bend d'or?
 
The Grosvenors lost that one, but obviously have long memories as a Grosvenor 
named a chestnut race hourse of his in the early 1800s Bend D'Or.    Later in 
the century, a young Grosvenor was born who proved to have the same 
chestnut-colored hair as the race horse had had.  So he got the nickname 
"Bendor".
 
And there you have it.  You never know where Churchillian tidbits will lead you.
 
Jonathan Hayes

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Re: [ChurchillChat] The New Battle of Britain - Standpoint Magazine

[chateaustegosaurus]

A somber analysis.  Unfortunately, I must agree with much of it.  In regards to 
the present lamentable recrudescence of anti-Semitism, both in Europe and the 
United States, I have always regarded anti-Semitism as an infallible indication 
of interlectual inferiority.
 
Jonathan Hayes

--- On Wed, 10/6/10, Rafal Heydel-Mankoo  wrote:


From: Rafal Heydel-Mankoo 
Subject: [ChurchillChat] The New Battle of Britain - Standpoint Magazine
To: churchillchat@googlegroups.com
Date: Wednesday, October 6, 2010, 10:24 AM





The latest issue of Standpoint Magazine features, on its cover page, an 
illustration of Churchill in Homburg and bears the title "The New Battle of 
Britain". The feature article, by Daniel Johnson, is entitled: "Why the World 
Needs a Younger 
Winston": http://standpointmag.co.uk/features-oct-10-the-world-needs-a-younger-winston-daniel-johnson-churchill
 
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Re: [ChurchillChat] Pearl Harbor. Recently reported: is it correct?

[chateaustegosaurus]

This does not pass the smell test.  Excuse me, but would anyone in anything 
resembling their right mind acquiese to the serious degredation of their 
fighting force - just to persuade another person to come in?
 
This proposition is put forth by complete and utter fools.  I am getting a 
little too old to suffer fools gladly and would be more than happy to tell 
anyone espousing it that they are a driveling idiot.
 
Jonathan Hayes
--- On Thu, 9/2/10, John Mather  wrote:


From: John Mather 
Subject: [ChurchillChat] Pearl Harbor. Recently reported: is it correct?
To: ChurchillChat@googlegroups.com
Date: Thursday, September 2, 2010, 9:42 PM


Recently reported:

"President Roosevelt did not know beforehand about Pearl Harbor because Winston 
Churchill, who did know because the British broke the code, did not tell 
President Roosevelt because Mr. Churchill wanted us in the war."

Is there a shred of evidence for this assertion?



John H. Mather MD


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Re: [ChurchillChat] Churchill on Physical Fitness

[chateaustegosaurus]

Churchill was not unathletic, however.  Public schools fencing champion, scored 
two of the four goals in the polo match where the 4th Hussars won the 
championship, played polo into his fifties.  Probably more of a jock than the 
Governor.
 
Jonathan Hayes

--- On Fri, 8/27/10, David Freeman  wrote:


From: David Freeman 
Subject: [ChurchillChat] Churchill on Physical Fitness
To: "Churchill Chat" 
Date: Friday, August 27, 2010, 8:00 PM







Colleagues,
 
Here's a link to a short piece from the world of US political commentary but 
which is also a refreshing reminder of the wit and wisdom of Winston Churchill:
 
http://www.commentarymagazine.com/blogs/index.php/bromund/348816

David Freeman
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Re: [ChurchillChat] Re: "Unsinkable Aircraft Carrier"

[chateaustegosaurus]

Which just goes to show there is nothing new under the sun and WSC's admonition 
"Study history!" is always relevant.  The Venetians attached sponsons to their 
warships to shallow their draft enough to enable them to enter the lagoon.  I 
doubt the Venetians were the first to do this sort of thing either.
 
Jonathan Hayes

--- On Wed, 8/25/10, Editor/Finest Hour  wrote:


From: Editor/Finest Hour 
Subject: [ChurchillChat] Re: "Unsinkable Aircraft Carrier"
To: "ChurchillChat" 
Date: Wednesday, August 25, 2010, 7:21 PM


Try deleting previous messages in boxes to shorten these replies.

There were also "airborne battleships" with pneumatic bags designed to
lift them out of the water to clear shallow spots in a propsed
invasion of the Baltic in 1939 (FINEST HOUR 94, Spring 1997, p7). But
neither this nor the iceberg carriers have anything to do with the
origin of the phrase.

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Re: [ChurchillChat] Re: "Hussein Onyango Obama... tortured onChurchill's watch"

[chateaustegosaurus]

I make it a habit to fact check absolutely everything I read as I am very much 
aware of confirmation bias (i.e., if you think person X is a low-down ornery 
polecat who would steal the wheels off a baby carriage, and someone says X 
cheats at cards, you'll probably believe it.  But do you know whether person X 
even plays card games?  Maybe he doesn't).
 
As Churchillians, we should be used to this  -  poor WSC, he's been accused of 
everything except the extinction of the dinosaurs (and I expect that will 
happen soon!!).  It is very unfortunate that frequently journalists do not fact 
check but go with confirmation bias.  It's a serious professional failing.  It 
is a virtue of the Churchill Centre that they attempt to correct this.  We have 
to live life as it is.  In a perverse way, we should perhaps feel glad that WSC 
is still, 45 years after his death, considered important enough to be accused 
of ridiculous stuff like this.

Lordy, Lordy, Lordy.  I learned long ago that if an idea is sufficiently 
ludicrous, you can't kill it.  You can take it out to a cross-roads, beneath a 
gallows under a full moon and bury it with a stake through its heart and it 
will still rise and walk again.  Expect it to continue because it will.
 
Jonathan Hayes
 

--- On Fri, 8/20/10, Quinn Bastian  wrote:


From: Quinn Bastian 
Subject: Re: [ChurchillChat] Re: "Hussein Onyango Obama... tortured 
onChurchill's watch"
To: "Smith James M " , "churchillchat@googlegroups.com " 

Date: Friday, August 20, 2010, 11:02 AM


Wouldn't it be more appropriate if people in positions of influence checked the 
facts before making false statements?
Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry®

-Original Message-
From: Smith  James M 
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 16:31:07 
To: 
Subject: RE: [ChurchillChat] Re: "Hussein Onyango Obama... tortured on
Churchill's watch"

Isn't it rather, if anything, the bigotry of the right to blame Obama for (in 
addition to everything else under the sun) holding a grudge against WSC for an 
event that didn't happen "on his watch", and alleging falsely that he claimed 
his grandfather was tortured?  Both Ms. West and Richard's link to FH explode 
this myth.  
  
The net of this is that the book reviewer was-- innocently or maliciously-- 
wrong in his attribution of anti-WSC feelings on the part of Obama. 
  
James M. Smith



From: churchillchat@googlegroups.com [mailto:churchillc...@googlegroups.com] On 
Behalf Of Johan Arve
Sent: Friday, August 20, 2010 4:26 AM
To: churchillchat@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [ChurchillChat] Re: "Hussein Onyango Obama... tortured on 
Churchill's watch"


Another example of the bigotry of the left.


On Fri, Aug 20, 2010 at 6:02 AM, Editor/Finest Hour mailto:tcc-...@sneakemail.com> > wrote:
Antoine, See "Winston is Back" and "Bust-Out 2013" in Finest Hour 142,
pages 7&8,  and/or http://xrl.us/bhwooo

Diana West wrote on Townhall.com: 'In his "Dreams of My Father," Obama
describes his grandfather's detention as lasting "over six months"
before he was found innocent (no mention of torture).  Whatever the
case, Churchill didn't become prime minister for the second time until
the end of 1951. The Mau Mau Rebellion didn't begin until the end of
1952, one year after Obama's grandfather's release.'




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[ChurchillChat] Tory Democracy

[chateaustegosaurus]

It's always a good day when the latest Finest Hour pops through the mail slot.  
I noticed a page on "Tory Democracy".  I recall reading somewhere that someone 
asked Lord Randolph what Tory Democracy was.  He replied "I'm not sure, but I 
believe it is principally opportunism."
 
 Si non è vero, è ben trovato.
 
Jonathan Hayes

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Re: [ChurchillChat] Churchill Adult Ed minicourse - solicitng suggestions

[chateaustegosaurus]

One area which has always surprised me a bit as not getting a lot of interest 
is Churchill the athlete.  He was public school fencing champion and scored two 
of the four goals in the polo match when the 4th Hussars won the champoinship.  
He continued playing polo into his fifties.  Worth a mention, I would think.
 
Jonathan Hayes

--- On Thu, 8/5/10, Joe Hern  wrote:


From: Joe Hern 
Subject: [ChurchillChat] Churchill Adult Ed minicourse - solicitng suggestions
To: "ChurchillChat" 
Date: Thursday, August 5, 2010, 12:46 PM


I am developing a five week (1 hour and 45 minutes per session) mini
course for seniors at a nearby college.  I want to assign readily
available weekly readings.  Since almost all enrollees have email
addresses, I will not be shy about using on-line resources of The
Churchill Centre.  Course description is below.  I'm aiming to develop
an appreciation for his whole life, beyond the familar WWII Churchill.

I welcome course content suggestions, particularly from anyone who has
conducted similar adult ed or even college/high school introductory
seminars:  curriculum; books readily available at public libraries and
on Amazon.com.

The course starts in late September and I can give them in advance
some suggestions for book-length pre-course self-study.  (Gilbert's
one-volume distillation?  Manchester?  Jenkins?  My Early Life?
Others?)  During the course itself I'd like to keep to shorter
readings.  All are invited to weigh in with suggestions on general
readings.

[COURSE DESCRIPTION]
#1202 Winston Churchill: A True Polymath
Best known for his courageous defiance of Nazi might during World War
II, Winston Churchill (1874 – 1965) led a long and active life as a
statesman, orator, soldier, journalist, Nobel-laureate author, painter
– and bricklayer! He entered the army in 1895 and served in Parliament
from 1901 to 1964. Using his own words and writings about him, we will
examine Churchill's long and storied careers, the issues of his times
and the legend he became.

Course materials: speeches, articles and on-line resources of The
Churchill Centre (www.winstonchurchill.org). Students will be
encouraged to share their own memories of him.

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Re: [ChurchillChat] Re: When did the tide turn?

[chateaustegosaurus]

This is really a two part question.  First, is when did the forward motion of 
the Axis stop and second, when did the forward motion of the Allies start?
 
I would say, in the West, it was Alamein and Torch.  In the Pacific, 
Guadalcanal for both.  In Russia, Kursk for the first, not sure about the 
second.
 
Jonathan Hayes

--- On Tue, 8/3/10, Major McKinley  wrote:


From: Major McKinley 
Subject: [ChurchillChat] Re: When did the tide turn?
To: "ChurchillChat" 
Date: Tuesday, August 3, 2010, 10:16 AM


Here's an interesting article I read recently on the fantastic
HistoryNet.com website, publishers of various history magazines.

What Was the Turning Point of World War II?
http://www.historynet.com/what-was-the-turning-point-of-world-war-ii.htm

Not exactly your question, but it goes with it. I was surprised nobody
cited the Battle of Britain as the war's turning point. I think it's
part of the historian bias against the Western Powers and feeling that
with all the blood spilled in the East, that Russia deserves the
title. But without Britain holding on, there would have been no aid to
the Soviets and no victory at Stalingrad. Since Churchill said,
"Hitler knows that he will have to break us in this Island or lose the
war," I'd argue that's what started lifting spirits, although there
was much hard fighting ahead. The failure to sweep the RAF from the
skies forced the Germans to postpone Operation Sea Lion indefinitely.
Although people continued predicting swift victory throughout the
later years, Churchill warned it would be a long slog and managed to
predict the war's end correctly much farther out down the line. (I
don't have the exact details handy, if anyone wants to add them.)

On Aug 2, 10:52 pm, EvanQ  wrote:
> When did people in England feel that World War II had turned in the Allies' 
> favor?  I'm reading the Official Biography, and the Documents and yes, all 
> the footnotes.  What I wonder about is the people who had survived the Great 
> War and died during WWII.  Some of them would have died with England hanging 
> on by a thread, and others with the feeling that England would eventually 
> triumph again.  What date/year/battle would that have been?
>
> Also, I've been struck by the number of people who were very anti-Winston in 
> the post World War I years, but who served in his Government during WWII.  
> Can anyone point me to a book or article discussing this?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Evan

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Re: [ChurchillChat] Churchill the pop star

[chateaustegosaurus]

I am as fusty an old curmudgeon as anyone on this listserv.  I personally would 
not go for this sort of thing  -  BUT, I'm not trying to sell anything to 
anybody.  Big difference.
 
If this sort of stuff appeals to the younger set, why not make use of it to get 
your message across?  Sounds perfectly reasonable to me - with the caveat that 
someone who knows what they're doing should be the one producing it.
 
Compared to what theatrical directors routinely do to Shakespeare or opera 
directors to The Ring, WSC set to music seems pretty innocuous.
 
Jonathan Hayes

--- On Wed, 7/21/10, Terry Reardon  wrote:


From: Terry Reardon 
Subject: Re: [ChurchillChat] Churchill the pop star
To: churchillchat@googlegroups.com
Date: Wednesday, July 21, 2010, 11:36 AM



#yiv1266183866 .hmmessage P {
PADDING-BOTTOM:0px;MARGIN:0px;PADDING-LEFT:0px;PADDING-RIGHT:0px;PADDING-TOP:0px;}
#yiv1266183866 .hmmessage {
FONT-FAMILY:Verdana;FONT-SIZE:10pt;}


I fully agree with Rafal.
I watched the video twice to make sure that I could find nothing offensive in 
the production. 
With the inadequate attention paid to the teaching of history in my country, 
Canada, and likely in most others, we have to find innovative ways to bring 
Churchill to the attention of the public - this video is one way. Also no doubt 
some viewers to the video might be intrigued enough to scroll down the videos 
on the right side of the screen where there are extracts from some memorable 
Churchill speeches, plus the delicious Orson Welles and Richard Burton stories 
of their encounters with Churchill.
A couple of nights ago on a new TV show "Hot in Cleveland" the actress Betty 
White made a smart remark based on of our  Hero's lines, with the inference 
that she just made it up - the English actress Jane  Leeves responded "That was 
Churchill". Who knows someone may enquire as to "Who was Churchill".
By the way talking of the Beatles, on the cover of one of their albums "Sgt. 
Pepper" they show small photos of people they admire - one was WSC.
Terry Reardon
Toronto, Canada 

- Original Message - 
From: Rafal Heydel-Mankoo 
To: churchillchat@googlegroups.com 
Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2010 9:55 AM
Subject: RE: [ChurchillChat] Churchill the pop star

Again, I disagree. I don't particularly care for the music...but my tastes 
are exclusively classical and jazz. Nevertheless, we should be mindful not to 
be old-fashioned and out of touch.  I first discovered Churchill at the age of 
10 whilst watching TV -- he was portrayed as a somewhat bumbling and grumbling 
mediaeval knight in a cheap, commercial Disney film in which a 1970s American 
travels back to King Arthur's Court.  That portrayal was arguably more 
demeaning and more commercial than this silly video but it introduced me to 
Churchill's speeches and, at the impressionable age of 10, inspired me to learn 
more about him -- I joined the International Churchill Society at the age of 12 
and my passion for the Great Man has never diminished -- all due entirely to a 
Disney parody.  
 
I imagine that most teenagers of today viewing this video (the target 
audience) would have a very different reaction to that of some Churchill Chat 
participants and many of them would find this speech (one of my favourites -- 
and which is how I stumbled upon this video in the first place) inspiring. It 
would certainly introduce them to Churchill  for the first time and, given the 
current educational system, they might otherwise never encounter him. To me, 
that makes it a good thing.  Indeed, upon reflection, although of no great 
artistic merit, this video could be regarded as a young artist's modern pop 
tribute to Churchill -- but, dare I say, some of us (and I include myself) are 
as removed from the youth culture of today (particularly British youth culture) 
as Churchill was from the Beatles and the 60s pop culture.
 
I suppose this raises an important issue in terms of the Churchill 
Centre's Youth / Educational Outreach programme and the methods that might be 
used to introduce Churchill to those large segments of the young who may not 
be academically inclined, or who find history boring, but who could be inspired 
by his oratory. It is the incorporation of speeches into modern music (with the 
natural rhythm of oratory woven into the rhythm of the song) that has helped to 
interest teenagers in Martin Luther King and JFK and I do not see why the same 
could not be done for WSC.
 
RHM
 
> From: antca...@aol.com
> To: churchillchat@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: [ChurchillChat] Churchill the pop star
> Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 14:31:07 +0200
> 
> It is indeed a disgrace that some people should be prepared to make money 
> with anything.
> 
> Where is the "fun" ?
> 
> The video is demeaning both for its "authors" and for those who enjoy this 
> sort of trash.
> 
> A. Capet
> Rouen (France)
> ==
> 
> From: Thom
> Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2010 2:26 PM
> To: churchillchat@googlegroups.com
> 

Re: [ChurchillChat] ‘Four types of mass murderer : Stalin, Hitler, Churchill, Truman’

[chateaustegosaurus]

Didn't Churchill say apropos of another subject entirely "This is the sort of 
nonsense up with which I will not put?"  I spent a lot of time in the U.S. Air 
Force sitting nuclear alert.  On that basis, perhaps Mr. Lackey would therefore 
categorize me as a potential mass murderer and state terrorist.  That would 
then get me yanked off any commercial aircraft flight.
 
Lordy, Lordy - what's next?
 
Jonathan Hayes
 


--- On Sat, 7/17/10, Antoine Capet  wrote:


From: Antoine Capet 
Subject: [ChurchillChat] ‘Four types of mass murderer : Stalin, Hitler, 
Churchill, Truman’
To: churchillchat@googlegroups.com
Date: Saturday, July 17, 2010, 9:12 AM


Just noticed when doing bibliographical work :

-Lackey, Douglas. ‘Four types of mass murderer : Stalin, Hitler, Churchill, 
Truman’. In Primoratz, Igor [Editor]. Terror from the Sky : The Bombing of 
German Cities in World War II. New York / Oxford : Berghahn Books, 2010 : 
197-234.

http://www.berghahnbooks.com/title.php?rowtag=PrimoratzTerror

Has any List Member read the essay / book ?

Thank you in advance to all,

Professor Antoine Capet, FRHistS
Head of British Studies
University of Rouen
Mont-Saint-Aignan 76821 (France)
'Britain since 1914' Editor,
Royal Historical Society Bibliography
antoine.ca...@univ-rouen.fr

 
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Re: [ChurchillChat] Outraged, amused, or..?

[chateaustegosaurus]

I hate to say it, Carey, but this sort of stuff is practically être de rigueur 
these days.  The only thing that works is to be savage - calling them 
intellectually inferior for trying to rewrite history.  I hate not being nice, 
but being nice in these cases is water off a duck's back.
 
Jonathan Hayes


--- On Wed, 7/14/10, Carey Stronach  wrote:


From: Carey Stronach 
Subject: Re: [ChurchillChat] Outraged, amused, or..?
To: churchillchat@googlegroups.com
Date: Wednesday, July 14, 2010, 7:17 PM


This is as outrageous as Stalin having Trotsky's picture airbrushed out of old 
Soviet photos. An abomination!


- Original Message -
From: Geoff Zimmerman 
To: ChurchillChat@googlegroups.com
Sent: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 01:32:03 - (UTC)
Subject: [ChurchillChat] Outraged, amused, or..?

What do you think of this?
Geoff Zimmerman
geoff...@yahoo.com

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Re: [ChurchillChat] Seventy Years Ago Today

[chateaustegosaurus]

You are SO right!  That must have been an amazing moment.  I figured all 
Churchillians were already familiar with that, so didn't clutter it up.  But it 
says volumes about both WSC and George VI - all positive.

I'm afraid they don't make them like that any more.

Jonathan Hayes
-- Original message from san...@churchillsbritainfoundation.org: 
-- 

If I may interject an addition to your story, the King greeted my 
great-grandfather with the statement; "I suppose you don't know why I've 
summoned you." To which Churchill replied, 

"Your Majesty, I couldn't possibly imagine."

I would have loved to have been there.

Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry



From: chateaustegosau...@att.net 
Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 19:02:44 +
To: 
Subject: [ChurchillChat] Seventy Years Ago Today


At six p.m., WSC was asked by King George VI to form a government.  He said he 
would do so.

A great moment in history.

Jonathan Hayes
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[ChurchillChat] Seventy Years Ago Today

[chateaustegosaurus]

At six p.m., WSC was asked by King George VI to form a government.  He said he 
would do so.

A great moment in history.

Jonathan Hayes

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Re: Fwd: Re: [ChurchillChat] Lawrence Farm

[chateaustegosaurus]

Thanks to all who responded on this thread.  A great bunch of people.  I'll 
still be in France when Jim Lancaster goes, so I won't be able to give him any 
assistance, but hopefully with the information he has from this thread he won't 
need more from my poor efforts.

I, and I am certain, Jim will provide after-action reports.  You guys are the 
greatest.

Jonathan Hayes
-- Original message from peteg...@aol.com: -- 


> To the Group... 
> 
> -Original Message- 
> From: peteg...@aol.com 
> To: chateaustegosau...@att.net 
> Sent: Fri, Apr 30, 2010 9:37 pm 
> Subject: Re: [ChurchillChat] Lawrence Farm 
> 
> Dear Jonathan, 
> 
> I found a Dutch map that shows Laurence Farm. It is located south-east 
> of the Essex Farm and Lancashire Cottage Cemetery towards Le Gheer. 
> The link to the site is: 
> http://www.forumeerstewereldoorlog.nl/viewtopic.php?t=17247&sid=afe88a8e57ce04a3
>  
> cff0f9d742399dc8 
> 
> If you scroll to the bottom of the map you can see the location of 
> Laurence Farm. 
> However, looking at Google Maps I do not see any structure at that 
> location today. 
> It would be on Sectie-Le-Gheer at approx: 50 43' 41" N 2 54' 15" W 
> 
> Best Regards, 
> 
> Pete van de Gohm 
> 
> -Original Message- 
> From: chateaustegosau...@att.net 
> To: churchillchat@googlegroups.com 
> Sent: Fri, Apr 30, 2010 4:29 am 
> Subject: [ChurchillChat] Lawrence Farm 
> 
> I'll be making a trip to the WW1 battlefields - Ypres and the Somme  - 
> in a couple of weeks, and, of course, one of the places I'd like to see 
> is Lawrence Farm, Churchill's HQ.  Only where, exactly, is it?  None of 
> the Churchillian histories are any help; Major and Mrs. Holt say 
> nothing about it (WSC doesn't even get a listing in their Prominent 
> People in the Salient - though Anthony Eden gets a mention!). 
>   
> Rose Coombs at least can get me in the general area:  "Continuing 
> westward toward Ploegsteert village, along the southern flank of the 
> wood, to the left, amid the fields, clusters of farm buildings can be 
> seen.  One of these is Lawrence Farm." 
>   
> I can get that far without much problem, but which among the "clusters 
> of farm buildings"?  I fully realize these are private property and, of 
> course, would fully respect that.  No true Churchillian would do 
> otherwise.  But it would be nice to be able to look toward a specific 
> building and be able to say "That's Lawrence Farm." 
>   
> Any and all help would be greatly appreciated. 
>   
> Jonathan Hayes 
> 
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Re: [ChurchillChat] Churchill's "worst" decision may have been among his best.

[chateaustegosaurus]

You are right; Greece was one of Il Duce's mistakes.  He was jealous of 
Hitler's successes and wanted one of his own.  Hitler was not a happy camper 
when he heard about it.

What is being neglected is that Yugoslavia had also gone pro-Ally.  Hitler 
could not have invaded Russia with that flank open. He had to take out 
Yugoslavia and Greece to clear that flank.  And did so in fairly short order.  
Which did help to delay him too long on the inital blitzkieg - though there 
were other factors at work also.

The British did not cover themselves with glory in Greece.  One point that I 
remember was that, imbued with classical education, the British figured to stop 
the Germans at Thermopylae, not realizing the terrain had changed just a bit 
since the days of Leonidas.  Thermopylae was no longer a narrow pass, but a 
reasonably wide plain and the Germans roared on through.

There was a fair amount of classical nostalgia with the decision to go into 
Greece and it certainly did prevent the British from cleaning out North Africa 
before Rommel could set up shop.  But it did pay dividends later on.  I would 
put forward the thesis that the British effort then was what caused Stalin to 
cede control of Greece to the British at the end of the war.  Certainly it was 
against Stalin's geopolitical interests.  There was a very strong Communist 
movement in Greece and control of Greece would have put the squeeze on the 
Bosporus for the warm-water ports which have always been a Russian objective.

Greece was also a jumping-off point for the Germans for a pincer on Egypt 
through Syria.  The Germans did use Vichy airfields in Syria to supply Arab 
insurgents.  It's sometimes fashionable to pooh-pooh British military 
abilities, but their negation of the Syrian/Iraqi/Palestinian threat to their 
rear with totally inadequate forces speaks very well of their high command 
abilities.

Monday-morning quarterbacking is all very well, but we must remember that 
decisions are always made on the spot with very imperfect information.  It's a 
miltary truism that victory goes to the general who makes the fewest mistakes.  
And in playing "what if?" you can't just change one parameter.  That's dirty 
pool.  If, on the second day at Gettysburg, Dan Sickles hadn't put forward his 
salient into the Peach Orchard and Wheat Field, the Round Tops might well have 
been occupied by the Federals sooner and in greater strength, negating any 
potential Rebel flanking maneuver.

Studying military history is very valuable but only if one realizes the 
limitations the players were operating under.  Given the particular 
circumstances and with the information available, was this the right decision?  
Would it have been possible to obtain further information in a timely manner 
and would that have changed the decision?

Churchill and his generals were always operating under heavy pressure.  They 
made mistakes.  At the end of the day, however, the Germans made more.

Jonathan Hayes
-- Original message from Stirling Newberry 
: -- 


The military factors in Greece included the reality that the Greeks had just 
defeated the Italian Army, and control of the Aegean Islands would be helpful 
to the German ability to resupply AfrikaCorps and further expansion, and the 
possibility of creating, however small a new front to the war. Hitler too, had 
to take time and resources away from a more important goal: Operation 
Barbarossa, as well as having to reduce attacks on the United Kingdom itself 
because of limits to availability of air power. Part of the result is that 
Greece was a continuous sore for the Germans and had one of the most dangerous 
resistance movements in Greece. Even at this distance, judgment on Greece 
varies widely from a blunder to the turning point in the war, it makes it hard 
to regard this as unequivocally Churchill's greatest mistake. 


>From the long stand point, the Battle of Greece gave valuable insight into 
>fighting the Wehrmacht, including occasions where the components of the 
>blitzkrieg were thwarted or thrown into confusion. While, given the military 
>facts, these were far short of being able to stop the invasion in Greece, they 
>were important later on. For the first time a Panzer attack was blunted, the 
>German airborne forces took heavy casualties, leading Hitler to forbid further 
>airborne actions in Crete, heavy use of the German air capacity to support the 
>invasion and contest the evacuation, took materiel away from the German air 
>attacks on Britain, then still on going, and for potential counter attacks by 
>the RAF against Germany. 


There is also no assurance that the additional forces would have, in fact, 
turned the tide in North Africa.


This is leaving aside the obvious reason to want to support an country that had 
just bloodied the axis nose, and was ready to fight the invasion.


In this case, both Hitler and Churchill were acting on instinct. Hitler's to 
never l

[ChurchillChat] Lawrence Farm

[chateaustegosaurus]

I'll be making a trip to the WW1 battlefields - Ypres and the Somme  - in a 
couple of weeks, and, of course, one of the places I'd like to see is Lawrence 
Farm, Churchill's HQ.  Only where, exactly, is it?  None of the Churchillian 
histories are any help; Major and Mrs. Holt say nothing about it (WSC doesn't 
even get a listing in their Prominent People in the Salient - though Anthony 
Eden gets a mention!).

Rose Coombs at least can get me in the general area:  "Continuing westward 
toward Ploegsteert village, along the southern flank of the wood, to the left, 
amid the fields, clusters of farm buildings can be seen.  One of these is 
Lawrence Farm."

I can get that far without much problem, but which among the "clusters of farm 
buildings"?  I fully realize these are private property and, of course, would 
fully respect that.  No true Churchillian would do otherwise.  But it would be 
nice to be able to look toward a specific building and be able to say "That's 
Lawrence Farm."

Any and all help would be greatly appreciated.

Jonathan Hayes

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Re: [ChurchillChat] Churchill photo help

[chateaustegosaurus]

There are several photos of WSC wearing that outfit on the "Prince of Wales" in 
1940 - which would be stretching the defintion of "Royal Tacht" quite a bit!

But I'm wondering - is that uniform really that of the Royal Yacht Squadron or 
is it that of Trinity House?

Jonathan Hayes
-- Original message from Todd Ronnei : 
-- 


> Great Britain issued four stamps in 1974 for Churchill's centenary, 
> which are pictured here: 
> 
> http://www.collectgbstamps.co.uk/displayset.asp?setid=132 
> 
> I'm trying to find, either online or in a printed source, the 
> photographs used in the stamp designs. I've found three of them, but one 
> of them eludes me--the photo for the 4-1/2p stamp, Churchill in Royal 
> Yacht Squadron Uniform. According to various sources, this photo is from 
> 1942. 
> 
> Anyone know where I can find the photograph? 
> 
> Thanks, 
> Todd 
> 
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> 

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Re: [ChurchillChat] Cartoons

[chateaustegosaurus]

Dunno about online resources, but the book "W.S.C.  A Cartoon Biography"  by 
Fred Urquhart (Cassells, 1955) should give you everything you're looking for.  
www.bookfinder.com has it readily available for under $20.

Jonathan Hayes
-- Original message from Perpetuo991 : 
-- 


> I am seeking an online resource that has cartoons of Churchill that 
> may be useful for a graduate level paper I am writing. I need cartoons 
> published from 1899-1914. Any information is greatly appreciated 
> 
> Thank you, 
> 
> KTL 
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Re: [ChurchillChat] Winston Churchill (Grandson) Death

[chateaustegosaurus]

Darn good question, Antoine.  While I don't know the answer, I would suspect 
that (as is usually the case), the Daily Telegraph was providing the financial 
backing for the project - which undoubtably was extremely expensive.

Jonathan Hayes
-- Original message from "Antoine Capet" : 
-- 


> Many thanks for the link : 
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obituaries/politics-obituaries/7352232/Winston-C
>  
> hurchill.html 
> 
> A really complicated life! 
> 
> There is a passage in the obituary which I do not understand : 
> 
> "When Randolph Churchill died in 1968, Churchill wanted to take on the 
> biography of Sir Winston that his father had begun. But Lord Hartwell, 
> proprietor of the Telegraph, with whom the decision lay, engaged the 
> academic Martin Gilbert, who went on to produce a classic. " 
> 
> Why should the proprietor of the Daily Telegraph have a say on Randolph 
> Churchill's successor for the Official Biography? From where did he derive 
> this (heavy) privilege? 
> 
> Best wishes to all, 
> 
> Antoine Capet, 
> Rouen (France) 
> 
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[ChurchillChat] Winston Churchill (Grandson) Death

[chateaustegosaurus]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obituaries/politics-obituaries/7352232/Winston-Churchill.html

This does not give the cause of death.

Jonathan Hayes

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Re: [ChurchillChat] Was Churchill a Bully?

[chateaustegosaurus]

I think the most significant thing about all this is how Churchill, after all 
these years, keeps getting dragged out as a symbol of what ever the latest 
hobby horse is.  Much more than FDR or Eisenhower, for example.  Poor WSC; he 
wouldn't recognize most of this from Adam.

Any really great man is going to create great loyalties and great animosities.  
Why should you expect Churchill to be any exception?

I ws incredibly fortunate to have had such an experience - working for Robin 
Olds.  I would have followed him anywhere, anytime without any question - as 
would have hundreds of others.  But there were just as many - or perhaps more - 
who couldn't stand him.  Which is perhaps why he never got to be more than 
Brigadier General and it took some political maneuvering even to get him that 
rank.

So don't worry about this stuff; it's to be expected.  Just take it as yet 
another (though we didn't really need another) confirmation of Churchill's 
greatness.

Jonathan Hayes
-- Original message from David Freeman : 
-- 

Following up on recent charges made about Gordon Brown, The Times weighs in on 
WSC:

http://timesonline.typepad.com/timesarchive/2010/02/was-churchill-a-bully.html

 
If you read through the article to the last letter you will see that Boothby 
was being disingenuous.  He omits to mention that his incessant cuckolding of 
Harold Macmillan (an open secret) might have had something to do with the 
attitude other people adopted towards him.

David Freeman

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Re: [ChurchillChat] Charles Osgood (CBS): A Quick Read on Churchill

[chateaustegosaurus]

If you've been to Chartwell, you've undoubtably noticed that the bricks were 
laid with truly professional skill.  Indeed, as many have noticed, Churchill 
was a member of the bricklayers' union.

Churchill did a number of various things in his life, but it should be noted 
that he never did anything less than topnotch - polo, painting, bricklaying.  
He was never satisfied with anything less than first class.  Perhaps this is 
one of the things which should be remembered and emulated.

Jonathan Hayes
-- Original message from Carey Stronach : 
-- 

The attachment mentions that one of Churchill's two hobbies was bricklaying. 
This was brought to my attention a few days ago when I watched "Mission to 
> Moscow" on Turner Classic Movies. When Ambassador Joseph Davies was on his 
> way home from Russia at the end of his tenure as ambassador, he stopped in 
> England and visited WSC. When he arrived at Chartwell, Clemmie took him to 
> meet Churchill, who was in his yard laying bricks, and expressed his pride in 
> his craft before they discussed the threat 
> posed by Nazi Germany. 
> CES 
> 
> 
> - Original Message - 
> From: John David Olsen 
> To: ChurchillChat@googlegroups.com 
> Sent: Sun, 24 Jan 2010 18:02:23 + (UTC) 
> Subject: [ChurchillChat] Charles Osgood (CBS): A Quick Read on Churchill 
> 
> A report on CBS This Morning, by Charles Osgood about Chartwell Booksellers. 
> 
> 
> 
> http://winstonchurchill.org/learn/in-the-media/churchill-in-the-news/814-a-q 
> uick-read-on-winston-churchill 
> 
> 
> 
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RE: [ChurchillChat] Sutherland's Churchill portrait

[chateaustegosaurus]

I think Clementine did the world a service.  Does anyone know what Sutherland's 
personal feelings toward Churchill were?  It's looks like the sort of painting 
you'd do of someone you didn't like very well.

Jonathan Hayes
-- Original message from richard geschke : 
-- 

Now I understand why Clementine did what she did.  The portrait while I believe 
to be well done and a very realistic depiction, Winston looks tired and should 
not be shown that way.  As we all do, we are all vain and I ask this question, 
would you keep a picture of a likeness of yourself which you didn't like 
hanging on your wall?
Richard C. Geschke 
> From: antca...@aol.com
> To: churchillchat@googlegroups.com
> Subject: [ChurchillChat] Sutherland's Churchill portrait
> Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2010 17:33:25 +0100
> 
> Text on Sutherland with the picture :
> 
> http://english.ohmynews.com/articleview/article_view.asp?at_code=278128
> 
> A.Capet
> 
> From: richard geschke
> Sent: Sunday, January 24, 2010 4:13 PM
> To: churchillchat@googlegroups.com
> Subject: FW: [ChurchillChat] The Destruction of Sutherland's Churchill 
> portrait - BBC Radio listen on-line
> 
> 
> 
> This has piqued my interest to see this image. I guess I'll search the 
> internet not only for the portrait but also the Artist himself. This is a 
> very interesting piece of history which now you've got me pursuing answers.
> Thanks,
> Richard C. Geschke
> > Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2010 06:23:00 -0800
> > Subject: [ChurchillChat] The Destruction of Sutherland's Churchill 
> > portrait - BBC Radio listen on-line
> > From: hey...@hotmail.com
> > To: churchillchat@googlegroups.com
> >
> > BBC Radio 4 recently broadcast a short programme in which antiquarian
> > book dealer Rick Gekoski told the story of the Sutherland portrait.
> > The radio programme may be heard (until Friday, 29th January) at this
> > address:
> > http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00mg3yq/Lost_Stolen_or_Shredded_The_Destroyed_Portrait_of_Winston_Churchill/
> >
> > From the web site:
> > "Graham Sutherland's portrait of Winston Churchill, commissioned by
> > both Houses of Parliament as a tribute to Churchill on the occasion of
> > his 80th birthday, was destroyed after his death by his wife because
> > she hated it so much. Photographs taken before its demise show the
> > Prime Minister hunched with age and dark in mood. A detailed study by
> > the artist for the destroyed painting still hangs in the National
> > Portrait Gallery.
> >
> > "Rick tells the story behind this lost portrait and asks if the rights
> > of an owner override those of the public, and if the Churchills had
> > the moral right to destroy it.
> >
> > "A Pier production for BBC Radio 4. Broadcast on:BBC Radio 4, 3:45pm
> > Friday 22nd January 2010 Duration: 15 minutes Available until: 4:02pm
> > Friday 29th January 2010"
> >
> > Rafal Heydel-Mankoo
> >
> > -- 
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> 
> 
> 
> Hotmail: Free, trusted and rich email service. Get it now.
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Re: [ChurchillChat] Washington Times photograph

[chateaustegosaurus]

Good question  -  it's obviously winter and out-of-doors.  It's in an 
industrial setting ("cloth-cap" workers in background).  Churchill's binoculars 
are official RAF Observer Corps issue.  There are a number of photos of 
Churchill with binoculars, but the only one I can think of where he had this 
particular model was on his Italian visit in 1944.  Man to Churchill's left has 
what appears to be some sort of "pass" in his lapel.  I note there are no 
military in the picture.

Jonathan Hayes
-- Original message from "Antoine Capet" : 
-- 


> Many thanks - but who are the people on the photograph ? 
> Where and when was it taken ? 
> 
> A. Capet 
> 
> -- 
> From: 
> Sent: Wednesday, January 06, 2010 2:57 AM 
> To: 
> Subject: [ChurchillChat] From The Washington Times: 'Winston Churchill 
> still instructs' 
> 
> > Richard C. Geschke sent you this: 
> > 
> > Winston Churchill still instructs 
> > 
> > 
> http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/jan/05/winston-churchill-still-instruct
>  
> s/ 
> > 
> >  
> > Richard C. Geschke attached this additional message: 
> > 
> > This article gives food for thought in today's problems of terrorism. 
> > Let's not conjecture what Winston would do, but what lessons of his 
> > past actions would be a guide for today's leaders. 
> > Richard C. Geschke 
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > The Washington Times top emailed stories: 
> > 
> > EDITORIAL: Hiding health bills behind closed doors 
> > 
> http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/jan/05/hiding-health-bills-behind-close
>  
> d-doors/ 
> > 
> > EDITORIAL: Obama's failed freshman year 
> > http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/jan/04/obamas-failed-freshman-year/
> >  
> > 
> > PRUDEN: A little religion for the messiah 
> > 
> http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/jan/05/pruden-a-little-religion-for-the
>  
> -messiah/ 
> > 
> > Europe's looming demise 
> > http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/dec/30/europes-looming-demise/ 
> > 
> > Dems look to skip formality on health bills 
> > 
> http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/jan/05/democrats-look-to-skip-formality
>  
> -on-health-bills/ 
> > 
> 
> 
> 
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> > 
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Re: [ChurchillChat] Re: WSC--Hope

[chateaustegosaurus]

The "Deserve Victory" poster appears to be a "son of" the iconic Kitchener 
poster "Your Country Needs You" which was cloned into Uncle Sam for the United 
States.  Hardly surprising - when you've got somethin that works that well, 
milk it!  The change of phrase comes out just right.

Jonathan Hayes
-- Original message from "Craig Horn" : 
-- 


> As I understand the "Deserve Victory" Poster first appeared as a broadside 
> (of which I have a photo) under which was written: 
> "Any victory worth winning must be deserved. And, as our victories are 
> increased in scale, so must be our exertions. We shall win - Not through the 
> evil of our enemies, but through the merit in ourselves. Deserve Victory! 
> Let that be our touchstone for every thought, word and deed." 
> 
> Craig Horn 
> Charlotte, NC 
> 
> 
> - Original Message - 
> From: "PatFinn1940" 
> To: "ChurchillChat" 
> Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2009 11:41 AM 
> Subject: [ChurchillChat] Re: WSC--Hope 
> 
> 
> I do like that 'Deserve Victory' poster! Is there any way to get a 
> copy of it? 
> 
> And I do agree with Mr. Geschke: there needs to be a way of thinking 
> 'outside the box', in regards to our current enemies. And I also 
> think that Mr. Churchill would be in the forefront of that thinking! 
> 
> (Ms.) Pat Finnegan 
> http://pearlsofhistory.blogspot.com 
> 
> On Dec 31, 9:25 am, richard geschke wrote: 
> > Victory in the context of Churhill's time represents the last of the 
> > European imperialistic conflicts. What we have today is the same threat 
> > but packaged and utilized in a much different way. The ways to Victory 
> > must utilize different approaches to dealing with terrorism utilizing 
> > better intelligence and world cooperation, not one nation bearing the 
> > load. The same principles of Allied cooperation must be utilized using 
> > 21st Century technology and thinking outside the box to get "Victory". Old 
> > imperialistic attitudes and old counterinsurgency methods are no longer 
> > the way to do it. If Winston were here today, I think he would agree with 
> > me. 
> > 
> > Richard C. Geschk 
> > 
> > Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2009 04:44:22 -0600 
> > Subject: Re: [ChurchillChat] WSC--Hope 
> > From: jonlellenb...@gmail.com 
> > To: churchillchat@googlegroups.com 
> > 
> > I don't wish to be a dog in the manger, but I think Mr. Churchill would 
> > feel the attached wartime poster conveys his view of life and adversity 
> > better than a reprise of the poster for the politician who returned his 
> > statue in the White House to the British Government. I had a copy of this 
> > poster from the Imperial War Museum that I put up in my office at the 
> > Pentagon after 9/11 (a replacement office, my special ops bureau there 
> > having lost our original offices in the attack), and it is now with me in 
> > retirement in Chicago. Let us all pray we Deserve Victory in our struggles 
> > in the new year, and not simply Hope for it. Special Forces and SEALs who 
> > worked for me in that office at the Pentagon are still in harm's way in 
> > Afghanistan and elsewhere today, far from their families in this holiday 
> > season. 
> > 
> > Jon Lellenberg 
> > 
> > On Wed, Dec 30, 2009 at 7:22 PM, David Freeman 
> > wrote: 
> > 
> > Colleagues, 
> > 
> > HOPE you enjoy the attached picture. It should give us all HOPE for the 
> > New Year. 
> > 
> > Cheers, 
> > 
> > David 
> > 
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[ChurchillChat] Duke of Windsor "Plot"

[chateaustegosaurus]

If this is true, it's more bizarre than normal. 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/theroyalfamily/6624594/Revealed-the-Duke-and-Duchess-of-Windsors-secret-plot-to-deny-the-Queen-the-throne.html

It's obvious WSC had no inkling of this.  Had he known of it, I think Britain's 
first thermonuclear explosion woud have occured several years before it 
actually did.  He could have a short fuse at times.

Jonathan Hayes

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[ChurchillChat] Edward R. Murrow

[chateaustegosaurus]

I'm sure everyone found the article on Egbert Roscoe in the latest Finest Hour 
to be of interest.  I think you'll also find the following site of interest.  
Have your sound on and play the attached mp3 file.

http://www.otr.com/orch_hell.shtml

Jonathan Hayes

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Re: [Bulk] [ChurchillChat] Re: "The Churchill Arms" : "not worth a detour"

[chateaustegosaurus]

I don't care if it's called The Churchill Arms or The Flying Thundermug, the only relevant concern is, does it have Real Ale?  If yes, then go and happily quaff a pint.  Otherwise eschew the premises for an establishment where Mine Host draws the proper cask-conditioned.
 
Jonathan Hayes
-- Original message from "paul Sparling" : -- > > One small point. One of Montreal's most popular and trendiest nightclubs > is a spot called "Sir Winston Churchill's Pub" named for no other reason, I > think, than the founder admired Winston Churchill. Certainly there is > nothing inside the huge 3 floor to remind you of Churchill except for the > Logo. > > It's nice to see his name proudly waved about in a place that can have > occasional flare-ups of Anglophobia. > > Paul Sparling > > > - Original Message - > From: "Jonathan Sandys" > To: "ChurchillChat" > Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 5:05 PM > Subject: [Bulk] [ChurchillChat] Re: "The Churchill Arms" : "not worth a > detour" > > > > Ok... > > Firstly, did you enter the establishment because they offered food and/ > or drink, or did you go in because it had 'Churchill' in its name? > > If your answer is the former, I'm assuming that their taps weren't dry > and therefore they successfully managed to fulfill their main > purpose. It's a pub! It bears the name 'Churchill', not because > Winston Churchill was there, not because he's a money spinner, not > even because he is alive and well and living in there. Strangely > enough, The Churchill Arms is a pub, a place for a drink, not a > museum. It's like having a pub called The Venison Arms, they won't > have venison on their menu, it's illegal, they probably won't have > loads of deer heads hanging from their walls, or indeed have a deer or > doe in their gardens, but, they might just sell food and/or drink. I > suggest you write a book complaining about all the pubs that bear the > names of things that you consider don't meet the naming > specification. I wonder if there is anything in France that might be > considered misleading and potentially a 'lure to unwary overseas > customers'. Hmmm, interesting question. > > If however, your answer was that you entered because of the name, you > will find there are posters of Churchill around and indeed several > items of memorabilia. If you expected more then you should have asked > the landlord if his display concluded his collection. Sorry for your > disappointment. > > Secondly, 'Churchill' is very much the property of the British People > and all those countries that courageously fought for freedom and were > prepared to continue the war, whatever the cost would be. Winston > Churchill is a name that must NEVER be forgotten. With the legacy of > Winston Churchill comes the reminder of how close we were to sinking > into an abyss of tyranny. I am proud that people are using the name > for their organisations, etc. As long as they use it, Churchill will > be remembered. Even the BNP had the right to use the name, they just > don't have the right to abuse it or make Churchill out to be something > that he was not. I run a not-for-profit organisation in the name of > Sir Winston Churchill, I run it with pride and use his name to teach > others about the importance of his morals, values and leadership > skills. I use the Foundation to promote the importance of education > and determination. I use the name of a great man to do good within > the world. And, I'm sorry, but unless you are a British Citizen, you > have no right to be 'irritated'. I am his Great-Grandson, I have more > right that you will ever have, and I can tell you, I am proud every > time someone chooses to use the name of Sir Winston Churchill, because > every time, it ensures the memory is kept alive. > > Don't be so narrow minded. You are most certainly entitled to your > opinion, but, as you clearly didn't approach the landlord with > questions about a collection, (one I have seen and know from > experience exists), then I suggest you check your facts as to why the > things that are displayed are so, and why the landlord is unable to > display more Churchillian memorabilia. > > I hope this reply draws this pointless critic of the Churchill Arms, > to a close. > > Jonathan Sandys > President and Founder > Churchill's Britain Foundation > > On Nov 8, 2:11 pm, "Antoine Capet" wrote: > > Dear anonymous correspondent writing from a Verizon Wireless BlackBerry*, > > > > Everyone is entitled to his opinion, and you are perfectly justified in > > believing that the "Thai" pub in question is pursuing a worthy cause. > > > > Mine however, after giving them some of my hard-won money to buy a pint > > there, is that the victuallers are only using Churchill's name to lure > > unwary overseas customers. If they have interesting Churchill memorabilia > > to > > show, they conceal them so well in the useless junk which fills their pub > > that I was unable to identify any in spite of my 

[ChurchillChat] Re: Question about uniform

[chateaustegosaurus]

According to Newman's Birsds of South Africa, the sakabulu is the long-tailed widowbird and is noted as a "common resident".
 
Jonathan Hayes
-- Original message from "Paul Courtenay" : -- > > The best authority is Doug Russell in his 2005 book "Winston Churchill, > Soldier". On Pages 282-283 he writes: > > There were two forms of regimental badges, both made of brass. The > first was a Maltese cross with the letters SALH in the arms and date 1899 in > the centre. This badge was worn by Churchill in the photographs taken in > South Africa and was used to pin up his hat brim. The second badge had the > same Maltse cross plus a feather plume above its top arm and a brass ribbon > below on which was inscribed the regimental motto in Zulu: USIBA ENJALOH > NGAPAMBELE [Feathers to the Front]. Adorning the hat on the left side were > the long black tail feathers of the sakabulu bird.. > > Paul Courtenay > > > - Original Message - > From: > To: "ChurchillChat" > Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 2:26 PM > Subject: [ChurchillChat] Question about uniform > > > > Does anyone know what it is a specific cross-symbol on the Churchill’s > hat? > http://i062.radikal.ru/0911/64/8eab5d46f999.jpg > This photo was taken when Winston Churchill served as Lieutenant in > the South African Light Horse. > > > > __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature > database 4538 (20091024) __ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com > > > > > --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "ChurchillChat" group. > To post to this group, send email to churchillchat@googlegroups.com > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > churchillchat+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/churchillchat?hl=en > -~--~~~~--~~--~--~--- > 

[ChurchillChat] Re: Churchill Still Influencing Politics

[chateaustegosaurus]

I'll buy off on the wit  -  as for the rest:  his great friend, Lord Birkenhead said "When Winston is right, he is very right.  When he is wrong, oh my God."
 
Jonathan Hayes
-- Original message from "Linne, Walter P" : -- 






Winston Churchill was a product of his time with great situational awareness, near flawless reasoning and a wonderful wit...  
 
Walt Linne 
 




From: churchillchat@googlegroups.com [mailto:churchillc...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of richard geschkeSent: Friday, October 23, 2009 1:03 PMTo: churchillchat@googlegroups.comCc: slatt...@satx.rr.comSubject: [ChurchillChat] Re: Churchill Still Influencing Politics
 
What Winston Churchill would do, should do in the context of today's politics is but mere conjecture.  A waste of time.  What he did do or fail to do is what we should look at.  All other exercises are but mere vapor escaping into political nonsense. Richard C. Geschke 



From: chateaustegosau...@att.netTo: churchillchat@googlegroups.com; ChurchillChat@googlegroups.comCC: slatt...@satx.rr.comSubject: [ChurchillChat] Re: Churchill Still Influencing PoliticsDate: Fri, 23 Oct 2009 16:23:24 +

I suppose it's too much to ask that people follow our Patron's strictures about never assuming what Churchill would do in a modern situation.  Sometimes it's harmless  -  "would Chuchill Twitter?"  -  but more often it seems to follow the logic pattern:

 

Churchill did things which were courageous and right.

What I am proposing is courageous and right.

Ergo, Churchill would do what I'm proposing.

 

Either nobody is taught logical analysis any more or they don't want to go through the exercise.

 

Jonathan Hayes

-- Original message from "James T. Slattery" : -- 

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article6886424.ece#
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[ChurchillChat] Re: Churchill Still Influencing Politics

[chateaustegosaurus]

I suppose it's too much to ask that people follow our Patron's strictures about never assuming what Churchill would do in a modern situation.  Sometimes it's harmless  -  "would Chuchill Twitter?"  -  but more often it seems to follow the logic pattern:
 
Churchill did things which were courageous and right.
What I am proposing is courageous and right.
Ergo, Churchill would do what I'm proposing.
 
Either nobody is taught logical analysis any more or they don't want to go through the exercise.
 
Jonathan Hayes
-- Original message from "James T. Slattery" : -- 



http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article6886424.ece#--~--~-~--~~~---~--~~You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "ChurchillChat" group. To post to this group, send email to churchillchat@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to churchillchat+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/churchillchat?hl=en-~--~~~~--~~--~--~---

[ChurchillChat] Re: Winston Churchill Essay - Help Please

[chateaustegosaurus]

It's not a quote and I didn't mean it as such.  It's my view of the essence of the message that I believe Churchill was trying to send.  No one - let alone Churchill - would ever have put it so bluntly.  If you look at what was going on between them  -  this is the message Churchill was conveying.
 
Steel true, blade straight
 
Jonathan Hayes
-- Original message from jrwals...@comcast.net: -- 



Jonathon,
what is the source of that quote?
John walstad- Original Message -From: chateaustegosau...@att.netTo: churchillchat@googlegroups.com, "ChurchillChat" Cc: "Major McKinley" Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 2009 3:38:32 PM GMT -08:00 US/Canada PacificSubject: [ChurchillChat] Re: Winston Churchill Essay - Help Please

Churchill was playing poker there too.  "Don't just assume you'll get the Royal Navy.  If you don't help us survive now, it might be the Germans who get the Royal Navy."  I have no doubt FDR understood WSC's meaning loud and clear.
 
Steel true, blade straight
 
Jonathan Hayes
 
 
-- Original message from Major McKinley : -- > > I'd look up (and will paste) some items about the Roosevelt > administration's attitude towards the war, which required the recall > of US Ambassador Joe Kennedy, who saw the bleak situation of the Brits > and thought it was hopeless. The most the US hoped for was that when > -- they didn't think "if" -- Britain fell, they'd give us (Canada) > their fleet. Churchill told FDR that he would go down fighting, but > could not guarantee that another government in the UK might not make > more favorable terms with the invaders if the Germans came across the > Channel, and the biggest chit to play would have been the Royal Navy. > If anyone is confident in some well-researched alternative history, > perhaps they could recommend it. I think it's such a self-evident > Resolved it'll be hard to write. > > > --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "ChurchillChat" group. To post to this group, send email to churchillchat@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to churchillchat+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/churchillchat?hl=en-~--~~~~--~~--~--~---

[ChurchillChat] Re: Winston Churchill Essay - Help Please

[chateaustegosaurus]

Churchill was playing poker there too.  "Don't just assume you'll get the Royal Navy.  If you don't help us survive now, it might be the Germans who get the Royal Navy."  I have no doubt FDR understood WSC's meaning loud and clear.
 
Steel true, blade straight
 
Jonathan Hayes
 
 
-- Original message from Major McKinley : -- > > I'd look up (and will paste) some items about the Roosevelt > administration's attitude towards the war, which required the recall > of US Ambassador Joe Kennedy, who saw the bleak situation of the Brits > and thought it was hopeless. The most the US hoped for was that when > -- they didn't think "if" -- Britain fell, they'd give us (Canada) > their fleet. Churchill told FDR that he would go down fighting, but > could not guarantee that another government in the UK might not make > more favorable terms with the invaders if the Germans came across the > Channel, and the biggest chit to play would have been the Royal Navy. > If anyone is confident in some well-researched alternative history, > perhaps they could recommend it. I think it's such a self-evident > Resolved it'll be hard to write. > > --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "ChurchillChat" group. > To post to this group, send email to churchillchat@googlegroups.com > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > churchillchat+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/churchillchat?hl=en > -~--~~~~--~~--~--~--- > 

[ChurchillChat] Re: Dinners with Churchill

[chateaustegosaurus]

I couldn't find Dinners with Churchill on amazon.co.uk either.  Where would it be available?
 
Dinner with Mugabe  -  that's a pretty big contrast!
 
Jonathan Hayes
-- Original message from "Antoine Capet" : -- > > > Neither did I. My first "hit" on Amazon.com when entering "Dinners with > Churchill" in the search window for books was . . . _Dinner with Mugabe_ ! > > A.Capet > = > > From: Harlan Cooper > Sent: Friday, October 09, 2009 11:05 PM > To: churchillchat@googlegroups.com > Subject: [ChurchillChat] Re: Cold War conference and Dinners with Chruchill > > > I don't find "Dinners with Churchill" on amazon.com. Sounds intriguing. > Where is it available? > Thank you. > Harlan Cooper > > > > > From: churchillchat@googlegroups.com [mailto:churchillc...@googlegroups.com] > On Behalf Of mfstelz...@aol.com > Sent: Friday, October 09, 2009 2:53 PM > To: churchillchat@googlegroups.com > Cc: georg...@capelland.co.uk > Subject: [ChurchillChat] Cold War conference and Dinners with Chruchill > > Dear Allen, > Have you thought of inviting Hugh Lunghi? If it would cost him money, I > would be happy to pay his registration IF he wants to attend. He has become > a wonderful correspondent. Also, I assume you have invited Ld and Lady > Williams? > Second, I will send you several paragraphs about my book Dinners with > Churchill, for you to use as you see fit, at the gala dinner perhaps? it > would be most kind of you to alert your audience of my books existence. > Cita > > > > > --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "ChurchillChat" group. > To post to this group, send email to churchillchat@googlegroups.com > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > churchillchat+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/churchillchat?hl=en > -~--~~~~--~~--~--~--- >