Re: [ChurchillChat] Re: Churchill’s treatment at the hands of ‘Churchill Scholars’

[chateaustegosaurus]

I remember reading that, Richard.  It is a tribute which should be remembered  
-  and emulated.
Jonathan


  From: Richard Langworth 
 To: ChurchillChat  
 Sent: Sunday, February 26, 2017 2:13 PM
 Subject: [ChurchillChat] Re: Churchill’s treatment at the hands of ‘Churchill 
Scholars’
   
Jonathan,Very nice poetry. In the same line of thought, attached is the 
memorial the great Mustafa Kemal placed on the Gallipoli battlefield. Turkey 
could use another Ataturk today.

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Re: [ChurchillChat] Re: Churchill’s treatment at the hands of ‘Churchill Scholars’

[chateaustegosaurus]

I guess it's only fitting that we end this on a poetic note - not by me; I'm 
the second worst poet in the English language - but by one of the time.
Jonathan Hayes

 
 
 
 
 
 
 ACHILLES IN THE TRENCH
 
 Patrick Shaw-Stewart
 
 I saw a man this morning 
 Who did not wish to die; 
 I ask, and cannot answer, 
 if otherwise wish I.
 
 Fair broke the day this morning 
 Upon the Dardanelles: 
 The breeze blew soft, the morn's cheeks 
 Were cold as cold sea-shells. 
 
 But other shells are waiting
 Across the Aegean Sea; 
 Shrapnel and high explosives, 
 Shells and hells for me. 
 
 Oh Hell of ships and cities, 
 Hell of men like me, 
 Fatal second Helen, 
 Why must I follow thee? 
 
 Achilles came to Troyland 
 And I to Chersonese; 
 He turned from wrath to battle, 
 And I from three days' peace. 
 
 Was it so hard, Achilles, 
 So very hard to die? 
 Thou knowest, and I know not; 
 So much the happier am I. 
 
I will go back this morning 
 From Imbros o'er the sea. 
 Stand in the trench, Achilles, 
 Flame-capped, and shout for me.    
 
 
 
 
 



  From: Grimsdyke 
 To: ChurchillChat  
Cc: chateaustegosau...@att.net
 Sent: Sunday, February 26, 2017 12:22 AM
 Subject: Re: [ChurchillChat] Re: Churchill’s treatment at the hands of 
‘Churchill Scholars’
   
That is a most decorous note you've struck Jonathan. Thank you for your words. 
I thought I had bought your book, but I was mistaken. I shall order it straight 
away. Take careLincoln

On Sunday, February 26, 2017 at 7:19:32 PM UTC+13, chateaust...@att.net wrote:
I think our thanks are to you for bringing the topic up.  The discussion has 
been (in my sage and well-considered opinion) most fruitful and I have 
appreciated all the insights.  Well played, gentlemen!
Jonathan Hayes


  From: Grimsdyke 
 To: ChurchillChat  
 Sent: Saturday, February 25, 2017 9:37 PM
 Subject: [ChurchillChat] Re: Churchill’s treatment at the hands of ‘Churchill 
Scholars’
  
>From theamount of interest it has sparked, this seems to be indeed a worthy 
>topic; I’mnow glad I began it. These are great comments so far, and their 
>greatestfascination for me is to see how and in what form many people approach 
>the lifeof this great man. I hope the others on this forum will forgive me my 
>habit ofdipping in only on weekends, because to my great regret weekdays 
>deprive me of eventhe smallest chance to indulge in Churchillian and other 
>delightful fare.  It’s quiteright, I think, to say that history is rarely so 
>simple as to be reducible to ‘superherothwarted by dullards’ narratives. But 
>Churchill (I cannot think of anyone lesssuited to being pictured as an 
>unnaturally muscled individual with sloping brow,flashing teeth and coloured 
>cape) at his energetic best was much moreimpressive than an ordinary 
>superhero, and thwarted he certainly was – if one would read the 
>numerousaccounts of the campaign with all its details exposed. As I said 
>before, manyaccounts are equally instructive, but I find that among the most 
>readable andconsecutive of these are the accounts by William Manchester (The 
>Last Lion), Violet Bonham Carter (Winston Churchill as I knew him) andMichael 
>Shelden (Young Titan).Michael Shelden’s book is particularly interesting, and 
>illuminating far beyondeven some of the best biographies of Churchill that I 
>have read (and I haveread more than 30), and meticulously researched. I 
>shouldn’t spoil it for thosewho would like to buy the book – which I can’t 
>recommend too highly; but pages306 to 322 cover the Dardanelles imbroglio with 
>zest and superlative perspicuity,and you couldn’t possibly rise from reading 
>the book without realising how muchthere was about Churchill that one hadn’t 
>known before.  I think I’minclined to agree with you, Chris Bell; 3 minutes is 
>a suspiciously short timeto allot to something as climactic in the Churchill 
>record as the Dardanelles,and Martin Gilbert was hardly the man to overlook 
>this.  I don’t thinkI could disagree much with Jonathan, although I have grave 
>reservations about ‘notbeing able to fault Kitchener’ for his part in 
>depriving the campaign of troops,and supplying too little too late. Michael 
>Shelden is brilliant on this, as isWilliam Manchester.  Violet Bonham Carter, 
>who had the almostunedited confidence of her father, Prime Minister Asquith, 
>expresses aperspective deeper and more intimate and often more direct than any 
>of the others, although her objectivity is somewhat vitiated by her loyalty to 
>Asquith - as concerns the special sphere in which the Prime Minister's 
>treatment of Winston bears on these events when things began to go wrong. 
>Also, his almost treacherous lack of decisiveness is given scant exposure by 
>his daughter, who not surprisingly obfuscates it. For all that, hers is a 
>tremendously valuable book; superbly written, and readable in the extreme.  

Re: [ChurchillChat] Re: Churchill’s treatment at the hands of ‘Churchill Scholars’

[chateaustegosaurus]

I think our thanks are to you for bringing the topic up.  The discussion has 
been (in my sage and well-considered opinion) most fruitful and I have 
appreciated all the insights.  Well played, gentlemen!
Jonathan Hayes


  From: Grimsdyke 
 To: ChurchillChat  
 Sent: Saturday, February 25, 2017 9:37 PM
 Subject: [ChurchillChat] Re: Churchill’s treatment at the hands of ‘Churchill 
Scholars’
   
>From theamount of interest it has sparked, this seems to be indeed a worthy 
>topic; I’mnow glad I began it. These are great comments so far, and their 
>greatestfascination for me is to see how and in what form many people approach 
>the lifeof this great man. I hope the others on this forum will forgive me my 
>habit ofdipping in only on weekends, because to my great regret weekdays 
>deprive me of eventhe smallest chance to indulge in Churchillian and other 
>delightful fare.  It’s quiteright, I think, to say that history is rarely so 
>simple as to be reducible to ‘superherothwarted by dullards’ narratives. But 
>Churchill (I cannot think of anyone lesssuited to being pictured as an 
>unnaturally muscled individual with sloping brow,flashing teeth and coloured 
>cape) at his energetic best was much moreimpressive than an ordinary 
>superhero, and thwarted he certainly was – if one would read the 
>numerousaccounts of the campaign with all its details exposed. As I said 
>before, manyaccounts are equally instructive, but I find that among the most 
>readable andconsecutive of these are the accounts by William Manchester (The 
>Last Lion), Violet Bonham Carter (Winston Churchill as I knew him) andMichael 
>Shelden (Young Titan).Michael Shelden’s book is particularly interesting, and 
>illuminating far beyondeven some of the best biographies of Churchill that I 
>have read (and I haveread more than 30), and meticulously researched. I 
>shouldn’t spoil it for thosewho would like to buy the book – which I can’t 
>recommend too highly; but pages306 to 322 cover the Dardanelles imbroglio with 
>zest and superlative perspicuity,and you couldn’t possibly rise from reading 
>the book without realising how muchthere was about Churchill that one hadn’t 
>known before.  I think I’minclined to agree with you, Chris Bell; 3 minutes is 
>a suspiciously short timeto allot to something as climactic in the Churchill 
>record as the Dardanelles,and Martin Gilbert was hardly the man to overlook 
>this.  I don’t thinkI could disagree much with Jonathan, although I have grave 
>reservations about ‘notbeing able to fault Kitchener’ for his part in 
>depriving the campaign of troops,and supplying too little too late. Michael 
>Shelden is brilliant on this, as isWilliam Manchester.  Violet Bonham Carter, 
>who had the almostunedited confidence of her father, Prime Minister Asquith, 
>expresses aperspective deeper and more intimate and often more direct than any 
>of the others, although her objectivity is somewhat vitiated by her loyalty to 
>Asquith - as concerns the special sphere in which the Prime Minister's 
>treatment of Winston bears on these events when things began to go wrong. 
>Also, his almost treacherous lack of decisiveness is given scant exposure by 
>his daughter, who not surprisingly obfuscates it. For all that, hers is a 
>tremendously valuable book; superbly written, and readable in the extreme.  
>Violet makesit plain that Kitchener, after receiving an urgent appeal from 
>Grand DukeNicholas for the British to make a naval or military demonstration 
>to draw offTurkish forces and ease the Russian position, had then commended 
>theDardanelles as the decisive place for such a ‘demonstration’ to 
>WinstonChurchill on the one hand, and made a corresponding pledge to Nicolas 
>on theother. At the War Council on January 5 and 8th 2015, “Lord Kitcheneronce 
>again expressed his preference for the Dardanelles as an objective”, andCol 
>Maurice Hankey, whose brainchild the Dardanelles campaign had beenoriginally, 
>had minuted the practically unanimous agreement of the War Councilupon this. 
>“It seems strange” she writes, “that no one should have questionedthe decision 
>to ‘take the Gallipoli Peninsula’ without troops when LordKitchener had 
>estimated that 150,000 would be sufficient for that purpose andyet had made it 
>clear that no troops were available.” Later on, when troopsbecame available 
>for the Middle East, Col Hankey expressed to Prime Minister Asquithhis strong 
>view that naval operations should be supported by a military force;on February 
>16 the War Council agreed that the 29th division shouldbe sent to Lemnos as 
>the foundation of the military attack on the Dardanelles. “Butit was not, 
>alas, adhered to by Lord Kitchener”. The War Council did not acceptthe 
>doctrine that sending men to ‘chew barbed wire on the Western front was theway 
>to achieve victory, and Churchill was foremost among those who deplored 
>thecarnage and waste intrinsic 

Re: [ChurchillChat] Churchill’s treatment at the hands of ‘Churchill Scholars’

[chateaustegosaurus]

It's impossible to know whether the Dardanelles was a good idea or not - it 
didn't work, so there is no way really to evaluate it.  Yes, it might have been 
a game-changer, but it also might have just gotten bogged down as the Salonika 
expedition did later.  Speculation is fun - I do a lot of it myself - but label 
it as such.

I think it's unfair to fault Kitchener for not supplying troops sooner.  He 
didn't have them; prewar Britain did not have a large conscript army as the 
continental powers did.  Nor did the Commonwealth countries.  You don't just 
produce armies out of nothing overnight.  It takes time to recruit, train and 
equip them.  I think he did quite well having them by 1916.  He probably did as 
well as he could under the circumstances, knowing what he did at the time.
As far as blaming Churchill  -  well, life isn't fair.  "They (the Hansa towns) 
were to learn by bitter experience, what individuals too have to learn that 
mankind cannot resist the temptation to kick the man or nation that is down."  
(The Hansa Towns, Helen Zimmern).   We don't have to like it that that is the 
way the world is, but at least we shouldn't be surprised.
Jonathan Hayes


  From: Chris Bell 
 To: churchillchat@googlegroups.com 
 Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2017 11:57 AM
 Subject: Re: [ChurchillChat] Churchill’s treatment at the hands of ‘Churchill 
Scholars’
   
 I'm not in a position to comment on how faithfully the BBC adhered to Martin 
Gilbert's views when putting together this documentary, but I would echo Dave's 
comment that "It’s rarely that simple." Three minutes is hardly enough time to 
resolve such a complex topic as the Dardanelles and Gallipoli campaigns. And, 
as I've argued in my new book, it is impossible to come up with a simple and 
straightforward verdict as to who was to blame. Everyone made mistakes, 
including Churchill. Unfortunately, he is also frequently blamed for things he 
wasn't really responsible for. The comments by Silvester and Page in the 
documentary do create a negative impression, but neither one witnessed 
first-hand the decision-making process at the Admiralty or the War Council, and 
I wouldn't place much weight on their testimony. I suspect it was the BBC's 
decision to include them, not Sir Martin's. 
 
 Chris 
 
 On 2017-02-19 12:22 AM, Dave Turrell wrote:
  
 
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Maybe it’s my generation, but I am having a huge problem getting past the 
mental image of Jimmy Page standing on the beaches at Gallipoli and ripping off 
one of his trademark solos.    In general, I tend to be cautious when it comes 
to “Super-hero thwarted by dullards” historical narratives.  It’s rarely that 
simple.  The Dardanelles campaign has been debated endlessly in the past 
century, and I do not believe that the decisive blow has ever been struck by 
either side.    I did watch the series in question, several years ago, and 
recall being impressed by it.  I have never been other than impressed by the 
late Sir Martin’s work.    Dave     From: churchillchat@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:churchillchat@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Grimsdyke
 Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2017 9:48 PM
 To: ChurchillChat 
 Subject: [ChurchillChat] Churchill’s treatment at the hands of ‘Churchill 
Scholars’     In general, bone fide Churchill scholars have been fairly 
consistent in the way they handle his record, and what comes down to us is the 
image of a fiercely pugnacious, infinitely creative man of genius, with an 
incandescently brilliant mind who made both mistakes and their decided 
opposite, but whose motives throughout were gallant, noble, magnanimous ……and a 
host of other adjectives, none of which have any truck with mean-spiritedness, 
littleness, or spite or malevolence, or any of those characteristics that 
belong to lesser men. However, I have been puzzled beyond words by the 
treatment of certain parts of his record at the hands of some who had always 
seemed to be among the most discerning of ‘Churchill Scholars’.    A few years 
ago the BBC put out a 4-episode 

Re: [ChurchillChat] Glow-Worm

[chateaustegosaurus]

Anybody who doesn't like WSC's glow worm comment is crazy.  It was brilliant.  
Wish I'd thought of it ('course it was many decades before I was born, but 
that's a trivial quibble.)
Jonathan Hayes


  From: Cita Stelzer 
 To: "'Chat Room WSC (ChurchillChat@googlegroups.com)'" 
 
 Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2017 4:02 PM
 Subject: [ChurchillChat] Glow-Worm
   
Does anyone know what happened to that interim  mailing titled Glow-Worm? It 
used to have such interesting details and information about Winston Churchill


Cita Stelzer

Please note new email address:
c...@irwinstelzer.com

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Re: [ChurchillChat] The River War

[chateaustegosaurus]

Now I'm really confused.  Whose project is this?  I had originally thought it 
was Prof. Muller's project, in which case he would be free to change publishers 
in case they weren't producing.  I was then given to understand that it was a 
St. Augustine Press project and they had contracted with Prof. Muller to do the 
annotation. In that case, while they would control the publication date, Prof. 
Muller should be adequately compensated under his contract.
So how does the Churchill Centre all of a sudden come into this?  Who, if 
anyone, is running the show and are we ever going to see a published result?  
Or should we just kiss it off and go on to something else.
Jonathan Hayes


  From: STAN ORCHARD 
 To: churchillchat@googlegroups.com 
 Sent: Saturday, October 22, 2016 4:02 PM
 Subject: RE: [ChurchillChat] The River War
   
My interpretation of Lee's posting is that there is some 
financial contribution threshold from The Churchill Centre that needs to be 
reached before the book can be published.  And if the Centre had more cash flow 
the book would have been printed and shipped long ago.  If this is the case 
then why not just confess the shortfall and provide everyone with a realistic 
timeline to publication based upon facts and circumstances that everyone can 
understand.  Is this the end?  The beginning of the end?  Or, at least the end 
of the beginning?
Stan

BullfrogControl.com Inc.
69A Burnside Road West
Victoria, British Columbia
CANADA V9A 1B6

bullfrogcont...@shaw.ca 
250-858-FROG (3764)
www.bullfrogcontrol.com

Sent from my BlackBerry® PlayBook™
www.blackberry.com
From: "Lee Pollock" 
To: "churchillchat@googlegroups.com" 
Sent: 22 October, 2016 3:05 PM
Subject: RE: [ChurchillChat] The River War

Dear Jonathan:  I wish I could tell you and the other members of this chat 
group that Prof. Muller has been “well compensated” for his 15+ years of work 
on this immense undertaking, but that unfortunately is not the case.  While The 
Churchill Centre has been continuously supportive of his efforts on this and 
other Churchill works, we are a small non-profit and have limited funds 
available for grants for research and writing, no matter how worthy, as this 
edition of The River War surely is.   Specialized works of this kind do not 
garner big advances from publishers and St.  Augustine Press itself is a small 
independent enterprise in a world where the publishing and bookselling trades 
are under stress.  But I would like to offer the following suggestions:  1. 
  This chat group has a fairly large number of members, many of whom are not 
members of The Churchill Centre.  I encourage those of you who are not to join, 
which you can do online or by using the attached form.  If you so indicate, one 
hundred percent of your first year’s dues will be used to support the research 
and writing of Prof. Muller and other scholars.  2.   For those who are 
already members (and for others):  we welcome contributions of any amount that 
you might consider and you can designate that your funds be used to support 
publication of this new edition of The River War and/or for general research by 
Prof. Muller and others.  I hope you will all give favorable consideration to 
these suggestions.  Lee PollockExecutive DirectorThe Churchill CentreChicago, 
IL 60603lpoll...@winstonchurchill.org       From: 
churchillchat@googlegroups.com [mailto:churchillchat@googlegroups.com] On 
Behalf Of chateaustegosau...@att.net
Sent: Saturday, October 22, 2016 11:38 AM
To: churchillchat@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [ChurchillChat] The (mythical) River War  I, also, received a 
notice that the October pub date was off, but they didn't give a new one.  I 
hope Prof. Muller has been well compensated for his work 'cause there ain't 
going to be any royalties.  Jonathan Hayes  From: Dave Turrell 

To: churchillchat@googlegroups.com 
Sent: Friday, October 21, 2016 4:40 PM
Subject: [ChurchillChat] The (mythical) River War  In doing some desultory web 
browsing today, I note that the latest date that St Augustine Press has been 
giving for publication of Jim Muller’s ‘River War’ (September 2016) has been 
and gone, like so many of their other proposed publication dates over the last 
15 years or more.  Checking with Amazon, it seems that they were, at least, not 
taken in by the latest, and still show a publication date of November 2013.  
While I think that most of us have come to accept the prospect of publication 
of this work as being something of a bizarre ongoing joke, I wonder if St. 
Augustine will get round to not referring to their offering as having a 
foreword by “Churchill’s only surviving child, Lady Soames”.  That strikes me 
as being a little tacky, at best. Cheers, Dave-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
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Re: [ChurchillChat] Is Churchill Still Relevant?

[chateaustegosaurus]

She was very much of the "velvet glove" school.  Whenever she had suspicions of 
one of her subjects, she would do him the honor of visiting him.  The cost of 
housing, feeding and entertaining Queen Bess and her entourage would drive the 
guy almost to bankruptcy.  After a while, she didn't even have to go visit - 
just the suggestion that she might would be enough to bring the subject into 
line.  Now that's some sophistication in the dictatorship business!
Jonathan

  From: Dave Turrell 
 To: churchillchat@googlegroups.com 
 Sent: Saturday, September 17, 2016 7:34 PM
 Subject: RE: [ChurchillChat] Is Churchill Still Relevant?
   
#yiv1204025465 #yiv1204025465 -- _filtered #yiv1204025465 
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{}#yiv1204025465 Jonathan,  “She ran history's most successful police state.”  
A strong statement indeed.  I hope ‘Dear Leader’ in NK doesn’t think you are 
denigrating his accomplishments.  Or that the NSA doesn’t feel slighted.  I 
hear Stalin sobbing in his tomb.  Cheers J,  Dave  From: 
churchillchat@googlegroups.com [mailto:churchillchat@googlegroups.com] On 
Behalf Of chateaustegosau...@att.net
Sent: Saturday, September 17, 2016 5:36 PM
To: churchillchat@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [ChurchillChat] Is Churchill Still Relevant?  I would hope that 
Elizabeth I would not be relevant.  She ran history's most successful police 
state.  "The spacious days of good Queen Bess" were extremely repressive - and 
she got people to love it.  Jonathan Hayes  From: Richard M. Langworth 

To: ChurchillChat  
Sent: Friday, September 16, 2016 12:58 AM
Subject: [ChurchillChat] Is Churchill Still Relevant?  On Thursday, September 
15, 2016 at 11:00:20 PM UTC-4, Dave Turrell wrote:
Would anyone care to explain why WSC will be relevant to someone born in, say, 
2000?  More so than Gladstone, Walpole, or Elizabeth I?
  A challenging question, Dave. But start with the attached. Somehow I don't 
see Gladstone, Walpole or Bess making the cut. -- 
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Re: [ChurchillChat] Is Churchill Still Relevant?

[chateaustegosaurus]

I would hope that Elizabeth I would not be relevant.  She ran history's most 
successful police state.  "The spacious days of good Queen Bess" were extremely 
repressive - and she got people to love it.
Jonathan Hayes


  From: Richard M. Langworth 
 To: ChurchillChat  
 Sent: Friday, September 16, 2016 12:58 AM
 Subject: [ChurchillChat] Is Churchill Still Relevant?
   
On Thursday, September 15, 2016 at 11:00:20 PM UTC-4, Dave Turrell wrote:
Would anyone care to explain why WSC will be relevant to someone born in, say, 
2000?  More so than Gladstone, Walpole, or Elizabeth I?

A challenging question, Dave. But start with the attached. Somehow I don't see 
Gladstone, Walpole or Bess making the cut. -- 
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Re: [ChurchillChat] App - Winston Churchill's own 'fiendishly hard' version of solitaire

[chateaustegosaurus]

Bezique seems to be an ancestor of pinochle.
Jonathan Hayes



 

  From: Robert Courts 
 To: "ChurchillChat@googlegroups.com"  
 Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2016 10:23 AM
 Subject: Re: [ChurchillChat] App - Winston Churchill's own 'fiendishly hard' 
version of solitaire
   
Dear Antoine,

It’s beyond me, too, I’m afraid. 

I haven’t heard the solitaire link before, either - but like you I had heard 
bezique a lot. 

Robert


> On 26 Jan 2016, at 19:49, 'Antoine Capet' via ChurchillChat 
>  wrote:
> 
> Dear Robert,
> 
> Many thanks for this - I followed the link and I must confess I did not 
> understand anything about that game, and why WSC's version was different.
> 
> In his biographies, "bezique" is everywhere and "solitaire" almost nowhere. 
> Both sound French, but they are not played in contemporary France, and I have 
> no clue about their nature : is there a connection between the two ?
> 
> No doubt some List Members must be latter-day adepts of these card games and 
> can make all this understandable to all of us.
> 
> With all best wishes,
> 
> Professor Antoine CAPET, FRHistS
> Head of British Studies
> University of Rouen
> 76821 Mont-Saint-Aignan
> France
> antoine.ca...@univ-rouen.fr
> 
> 'Britain since 1914' Section Editor
> Royal Historical Society Bibliography
> 
> Reviews Editor of CERCLES
> http://www.cercles.com/review/reviews.html
> ==
> 
> 
> -Message d'origine- From: Robert Courts
> Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2016 10:34 AM
> To: ChurchillChat@googlegroups.com
> Subject: [ChurchillChat] App - Winston Churchill's own 'fiendishly hard' 
> version of solitaire
> 
> Here’s an interesting item from the morning papers, and with an app to play, 
> too -
> 
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/video-games/12119786/Donald-Rumsfeld-launches-solitaire-app-inspired-by-Winston-Churchill.html?WT.mc_id=e_DM83570=email=Edi_Pol_New_NEW_TEMPLATE_source=email_medium=Edi_Pol_New_NEW_TEMPLATE_2016_01_26_campaign=DM83570
> 
> Robert
> 
> 
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Re: [ChurchillChat] 'Churchill and Napoleon' with Dr Andrew Roberts - Feb 8th

[chateaustegosaurus]

I didn't know they were contemporaries.  Did I miss something?
Jonathan Hayes

 

  From: John David Olsen 
 To: ChurchillChat@googlegroups.com 
 Sent: Sunday, January 10, 2016 1:36 PM
 Subject: [ChurchillChat] 'Churchill and Napoleon' with Dr Andrew Roberts - Feb 
8th
   
For anyone planning to be in London next month, The International Churchill 
Society (UK) is hosting a Champagne Reception (Pol Roger of course!) with Guest 
Speaker Dr Andrew Roberts.
'CHURCHILL AND NAPOLEON'
February 8, 2016 - 6:00 PM
Location: The Churchill Bar, Hyatt Regency, 30 Portman Square, London
For further information and to reserve your seat http://bit.ly/1ObzESc

John David Olsen
THE CHURCHILL CENTREt.   ​+61 401 92 7878t.   ​​+1-323-205-5595w.  
www.winstonchurchill.orge.   jol...@winstonchurchill.org-- 
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Re: [ChurchillChat] River War Publication

[chateaustegosaurus]

I would certainly be the last to ever question Prof. Muller's integrity or 
depth of scholarship.  My query, as Mr. Turrell points out, had to do with the 
never-ending vanishing publication dates.  Any academic publisher deals with 
niche markets  -  I have a book "The Latin Inscriptions of Rome" written by a 
friend and published by Johns Hopkins Press.  Now that's a pretty niche market, 
but it came out pretty much on the schedule Johns Hopkins said it would.  St. 
Augustine's Press is doing its potential customers a dis-service with their 
continuing changing publishing dates.  I feel St. Augustine would NOT approve.
Jonathan Hayes

  From: Dave Turrell 
 To: churchillchat@googlegroups.com 
 Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 2015 8:39 PM
 Subject: RE: [ChurchillChat] River War Publication
   
Chris has, in many 
ways, hit the nail on the head.  I do not believe that any of us on this 
distro, and particularly those of us who have met or corresponded with Prof. 
Muller, would have any truck with impugning anything related to his 
professionalism, dedication, or attention to detail.  At the same time, the 
publisher who produces a full text version of The River War is to be admired.  
It is, as Lee points out, a niche market and we should have no sense of 
entitlement in regards to seeing it.  But, as yet , St. Augustine have earned 
no admiration.  They have talked the talk, but the walk is conspicuous by its 
absence.   As Chris notes, I think what sticks most in the craw is the 
seemingly endless stream of hypothetical publication dates, spanning more than 
ten years.  I’m not sure if, in the modern business world, this is technically 
known as ‘public relations’, ‘advertising’, or good old fashioned ‘mendacity’, 
but it is certainly insulting to the audience.  When, and if, the publication 
finally happens I shall no doubt praise St. Augustine to the skies. Until then 
I must continue to regard them as all mouth and trousers J.  Dave   From: 
churchillchat@googlegroups.com [mailto:churchillchat@googlegroups.com] On 
Behalf Of Chris Bell
Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 2015 7:35 AM
To: churchillchat@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [ChurchillChat] River War Publication  I would like to echo Lee's 
comments. I was lucky enough to hear Jim Muller speak about the new edition of 
the River War in Paris this month, and the work that has gone into this new 
edition is monumental. It takes time to do something like this properly, and we 
are all fortunate that Jim is taking the time to ensure that it is done right. 
There are, I notice, a few other "new" editions of the River War floating 
around these days, but these all appear to be simply the text of the abridged 
edition without editorial input of any kind, let alone any of the annotations, 
footnotes, or scholarly apparatus that Lee refers to. I suspect these are the 
result of lazy publishers looking to make a quick buck now that the book has 
entered the public domain in the USA (if I understand it correctly). 

I do not understand why the St Augustine's Press has insisted for so long in 
promising that the book is on the verge of publication when they must have 
known that that was not actually the case. They have cried wolf so often that I 
don't blame people for being frustrated and sceptical. But I certainly got the 
impression that we really are getting close to publication this time. 

We just need to be patient a little longer. It will be worth the wait. 

Chris


On 2015-10-19 11:01 PM, Lee Pollock wrote:
On behalf of The Churchill Centre, I would like to offer some comments on the 
various recent messages regarding Jim Muller’s edition of The River War. I 
cannot speak directly for Jim and/or the publisher and certainly this work has 
been in process for a long time. That said, I hope we all recognize and 
remember what an enormous effort is involved in producing this.  The St. 
Augustine website aptly notes: Editor James W. Muller’s more than fifteen years 
of research adds thousands of new footnotes identifying people who figure in 
The River War, explaining Churchill’s references to other books and events, 
tracking down the original dispatches and illustrations, and establishing a 
text that encompasses all variations in previous editions. Jim has been working 
assiduously on this for some years, while teaching full-time as well as 
remaining involved in and highly supportive of many other things in the 
Churchill world, including the work of the Centre.  We are most grateful for 
his continued support. Again, I can’t speak specifically for either Jim or St. 
Augustine but I would caution against the thought that the long time frame is 
the publisher’s fault or that they have somehow been deliberately dragging this 
out.   The suggestion that there should be a change of publisher is easy to 
make but in a challenging publishing environment generally, this is a niche 
product and having someone else step up is easier said than 

Re: [ChurchillChat] River War Publication

[chateaustegosaurus]

Not sure about British copyright laws but anything published in the US prior to 
1923 is out of copyright and in the public domain.
Hillsdale College has been reprinting a lot of the official biography companion 
volumes.  Wonder if they'd be interested?
Jonathan Hayes

  From: 'Mark Lowrey' via ChurchillChat 
 To: churchillchat@googlegroups.com 
 Sent: Sunday, October 18, 2015 5:16 PM
 Subject: Re: [ChurchillChat] River War Publication
   
Even a Taiwan bootleg edition  would suffice.  

-Original Message-
From: Dave Turrell 
To: churchillchat 
Sent: Sun, Oct 18, 2015 7:01 pm
Subject: RE: [ChurchillChat] River War Publication

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.yiv3532015907aolReplacedBody div.yiv3532015907WordSection1 {}It’s been going 
on for at least 11 years to my personal knowledge.  As the Texans might say, 
this would appear to be a publisher that is all hat and no cattle… or, as we 
Brits might prefer it, all mouth and trousers. Their lesser known publication 
of Savrola remains equally ethereal. My guess would be if Prof. Muller was paid 
to do the editing and annotation work then St. Augustine’s is pretty much 
bullet-proof in their choice as to when or if to publish it.  I see no reason, 
however, that the vanilla text of The River War should not be republished as is 
– I cannot imagine that St. Augustine’s bought the copyright to that.  If it 
can be done then it would be a great service to Churchill bibliography – the 
full text has not been published since the first edition of 1899/1900. Dave 
From: churchillchat@googlegroups.com [mailto:churchillchat@googlegroups.com] On 
Behalf Of chateaustegosau...@att.net
Sent: Sunday, October 18, 2015 5:38 PM
To: ChurchillChat@googlegroups.com
Subject: [ChurchillChat] River War Publication St. Augustine's Press still has 
The River War under "Forthcoming Books", yet still no publication date.  This 
has been going on for a donkey's years  -  has Prof. Muller considered dropping 
these people and going with some publisher who's actually willing to publish?  
It would seem that if he has a contract that St. Augustine's Press' lack of 
performance would be sufficient reason to abandon ship. Just a thought. 
Jonathan Hayes-- 
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Re: [ChurchillChat] River War Publication

[chateaustegosaurus]

So River War is still under copyright.
Jonathan Hayes

  From: Allen Packwood 
 To: "'churchillchat@googlegroups.com'"  
 Sent: Monday, October 19, 2015 9:06 AM
 Subject: RE: [ChurchillChat] River War Publication
   
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div.yiv6104355041WordSection1 {}#yiv6104355041 British copyright law in 
published material is 70 years from the date of the death of the author.    
Allen    

From: churchillchat@googlegroups.com [mailto:churchillchat@googlegroups.com]On 
Behalf Of chateaustegosau...@att.net
Sent: 19 October 2015 16:13
To: churchillchat@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [ChurchillChat] River War Publication    Not sure about British 
copyright laws but anything published in the US prior to 1923 is out of 
copyright and in the public domain.    Hillsdale College has been reprinting a 
lot of the official biography companion volumes.  Wonder if they'd be 
interested?    Jonathan Hayes    From: 'Mark Lowrey' via ChurchillChat 

To: churchillchat@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sunday, October 18, 2015 5:16 PM
Subject: Re: [ChurchillChat] River War Publication    Even a Taiwan bootleg 
edition  would suffice.        -Original Message-
From: Dave Turrell 
To: churchillchat 
Sent: Sun, Oct 18, 2015 7:01 pm
Subject: RE: [ChurchillChat] River War Publication It’s been going on for at 
least 11 years to my personal knowledge.  As the Texans might say, this would 
appear to be a publisher that is all hat and no cattle… or, as we Brits might 
prefer it, all mouth and trousers.   Their lesser known publication of Savrola 
remains equally ethereal.   My guess would be if Prof. Muller was paid to do 
the editing and annotation work then St. Augustine’s is pretty much 
bullet-proof in their choice as to when or if to publish it.    I see no 
reason, however, that the vanilla text of The River War should not be 
republished as is – I cannot imagine that St. Augustine’s bought the copyright 
to that.  If it can be done then it would be a great service to Churchill 
bibliography – the full text has not been published since the first edition of 
1899/1900.   Dave   From:churchillchat@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:churchillchat@googlegroups.com]On Behalf Of chateaustegosau...@att.net
Sent: Sunday, October 18, 2015 5:38 PM
To: ChurchillChat@googlegroups.com
Subject: 

Re: [ChurchillChat] River War Publication

[chateaustegosaurus]

I would love to buy a copy. I only hope I live long enough to do so.
Jonathan Hayes

  From: Lee Pollock 
 To: churchillchat@googlegroups.com 
 Sent: Monday, October 19, 2015 7:01 PM
 Subject: RE: [ChurchillChat] River War Publication
   
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{}#yiv3709950052 On behalf of The Churchill Centre, I would like to offer some 
comments on the various recent messages regarding Jim Muller’s edition of The 
River War.  I cannot speak directly for Jim and/or the publisher and certainly 
this work has been in process for a long time.  That said, I hope we all 
recognize and remember what an enormous effort is involved in producing this.  
The St. Augustine website aptly notes:  Editor James W. Muller’s more than 
fifteen years of research adds thousands of new footnotes identifying people 
who figure in The River War, explaining Churchill’s references to other 

[ChurchillChat] River War Publication

[chateaustegosaurus]

St. Augustine's Press still has The River War under "Forthcoming Books", yet 
still no publication date.  This has been going on for a donkey's years  -  has 
Prof. Muller considered dropping these people and going with some publisher 
who's actually willing to publish?  It would seem that if he has a contract 
that St. Augustine's Press' lack of performance would be sufficient reason to 
abandon ship.
Just a thought.
Jonathan Hayes

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Re: [ChurchillChat] River War

[chateaustegosaurus]

Well, I'm the eternal optimist.  But even so, if this publishing date does not 
materialize, Prof. Muller needs to get a new publisher.  Given the plethora of 
Churchilliana which floods the bookstalls, I wouldn't think that would be a 
difficulty.
Jonathan Hayes

  From: John McLeod jsmcl...@optonline.net
 To: churchillchat@googlegroups.com churchillchat@googlegroups.com 
 Sent: Thursday, July 16, 2015 5:29 PM
 Subject: [ChurchillChat] River War
   
The publisher's website in the past has listed a November release date for 
numerous years in the past.  Does anyone have information that this anything 
beyond a perennial placeholder?

Sent from my iPhone

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Re: [ChurchillChat] New Edition of River War

[chateaustegosaurus]

To say this is magnificent news is the understatement of the year.  I have no 
doubt that, since Prof. Muller has put this together, it will be definitive.  
We all owe him a large vote of thanks!
Jonathan Hayes

  From: Lee Pollock pollock...@rcn.com
 To: churchillchat@googlegroups.com 
 Sent: Thursday, July 16, 2015 1:55 PM
 Subject: RE: [ChurchillChat] New Edition of River War
   
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{}--Here is the listing from St. Augustine’s Press, showing a November 
publication date.  http://www.staugustine.net/our-books/books/the-river-war   
Jim has worked on this with incredible dedication and persistence for a number 
years and it will be well worth the wait.  It will indeed be magisterial and 
Churchillians will be indebted to him for his efforts.  Lee PollockExecutive 
DirectorThe Churchill centrelpoll...@winstonchurchill.org   From: 
churchillchat@googlegroups.com [mailto:churchillchat@googlegroups.com] On 
Behalf Of chateaustegosau...@att.net
Sent: Thursday, July 16, 2015 3:03 PM
To: churchillchat@googlegroups.com
Subject: [ChurchillChat] Just Asking  Haven't heard anything regarding the fate 
of Prof. Muller's magisterial annotated River War for quite a while.  Did I 
miss anything?  Jonathan Hayes-- 
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[ChurchillChat] Churchill's Mauser Pistol

[chateaustegosaurus]

WSC carried a Mauser C96 pistol at Omdurman.  There's a very interesting 
youtube on this gun:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZzqbJeDHK64

Jonathan Hayes

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Re: [ChurchillChat] River War - Annotated Edition

[chateaustegosaurus]

Well, if nothing else I suppose we can discuss it with WSC himself in the next 
world.





 From: Dave Turrell daturr...@verizon.net
To: churchillchat@googlegroups.com 
Sent: Wednesday, March 5, 2014 11:16 AM
Subject: RE: [ChurchillChat] River War  -  Annotated Edition
 


 
St. Augustine’s Press currently has the release date as being August 2014,
but I think their site is programmed to automatically push the date out by six
months every six months.  They’ve been doing that since Adam was a lad.
 
On the bright side I note that the world’s
oldest person just turned 116, so there may yet be hopes for the likes of you
and I not only to read this one, but also the last seven documentary volumes of
the ‘official’ biography.
 
Cheers,
 
Dave
 


 
From:churchillchat@googlegroups.com [mailto:churchillchat@googlegroups.com] On 
Behalf Of chateaustegosau...@att.net
Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2014 8:23
PM
To: Churchillchat@googlegroups.com
Subject: [ChurchillChat] River War
- Annotated Edition
 
Apparently Prof. Muller's annotated edition has been
published.  Does anyone know where I might purchase one?  I've been
eagerly awaiting this and would like to be able to peruse it before I shuffle
off this mortal coil.
 
Churchillian
regards,
 
Jonathan Hayes
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[ChurchillChat] River War - Annotated Edition

[chateaustegosaurus]

Apparently Prof. Muller's annotated edition has been published.  Does anyone 
know where I might purchase one?  I've been eagerly awaiting this and would 
like to be able to peruse it before I shuffle off this mortal coil.

Churchillian regards,

Jonathan Hayes

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Re: [ChurchillChat] Must-watch video for Churchillians

[chateaustegosaurus]

Worked for me and a great story - there's a Churchillian for you!





 From: totten...@comcast.net totten...@comcast.net
To: churchillchat@googlegroups.com 
Sent: Sunday, March 2, 2014 6:59 AM
Subject: Re: [ChurchillChat] Must-watch video for Churchillians
 


Link didn't work ...
- Original Message -
From: David Freeman wdavidfree...@yahoo.com
To: Churchill Chat churchillchat@googlegroups.com
Sent: Fri, 28 Feb 2014 19:18:51 - (UTC)
Subject: [ChurchillChat] Must-watch video for Churchillians
Colleagues,
 
Here is link to wonderful USA today story about Barry Singer and his Chartwell 
Bookseller store:
http://www.usatoday.com/story/life/books/2014/02/27/chartwell-booksellers-winston-churchill/5871621/
 
David
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Re: [ChurchillChat] Centenary of the Great War: Let the Spin Begin

[chateaustegosaurus]

One thing which I've heard from Euros in the past is criticism of the length of 
time it took for America to get into WWI and I expect there will be more of it. 
They forget that there has always been (and still is) a strong and justified 
strand of isolationism in America.  After all, millions of people came here to 
escape the militarism, wars and authoritarianism in Europe.  Why would we want 
to have gotten ourselves back into the Euros' messes?  We didn't start either 
WWI or WWII.  It was only when it got to the extent that it was affecting us 
that we intervened.  No reason to earlier.

Jonathan Hayes





 From: Editor, Finest Hour tcc-...@sneakemail.com
To: churchillchat@googlegroups.com 
Sent: Sunday, January 5, 2014 6:20 AM
Subject: [ChurchillChat] Centenary of the Great War: Let the Spin Begin
 


I didn't expect to find myself agreeing with Labour's Shadow Education 
Secretary, but take a gander at his screed and see what you think:

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jan/04/first-world-war-michael-gove-left-bashing-history


We're going to be reading a lot of silly nonsense about World War I in the next 
year or two, and Hunt's preemptive strike is a salutary warning.

Hunt's piece recalls a poetic answer to Eric Bogle's famous poem Willie 
McBride, written by Stephen Suffet in 1997:

Ask the people of Belgium or Alsace-Lorraine,
If my life was wasted, if I died in vain.
I think they will tell you when all's said and done,
They welcomed this boy with his tin hat and gun.


Full text at: http://richardlangworth.com/mcbride


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[ChurchillChat] WSC and Ike address the troops

[chateaustegosaurus]

I've recently been told that local lore has it that Churchill and Eisenhower 
addressed a large assembly of troops in a natural amphitheater in Ovington, 
Hampshire in May, 1944.  There's nothing in the official history or Churchill's 
memoirs that could confirm it.  Does any group member know whether such an 
event took place?  My own suspicion is that it didn't.

Best Churchillian regards,

Jonathan Hayes

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[ChurchillChat] Chris Matthews

[chateaustegosaurus]

Look, can we have a moratorium on Mr. Matthews?  No-one is more deprecatory of 
Mr. Matthew's far left views than I, but from all indications, Mr. Matthews is 
a Churchill supporter, so let's leave it at that .  He certainly has a right to 
his views on other subjects and we should not excoriate him on this chat 
session because of that.  I would feel rather hurt if I were to be excluded 
simply because I feel Veuve Cliquot and Remy Martin are much superior to Pol 
Roger and Hine.

Jonathan Hayes

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[ChurchillChat] Finest Hour - Winter

[chateaustegosaurus]

An excellent (as always) production.  I especially enjoy the comparisons of 
Churchill and Napoleon.  I wonder if part of Churchill's interest in Napoleon 
was not only Napoleon as a man of action, but one with a tremendous work 
ethic which he also possessed?  Both were certainly prodigious workers - to an 
extent which leaves us mere mortals gasping.

The pedant in me cannot, however, resist pointing out a mild erratum in Allen 
Packwood's piece.  Hohenlinden was not a Napoleonic battle.  The French general 
was Moreau.  Admittedly, Napoleon ordered Moreau into action, but the campaign 
was really Moreau's.

Jonathan Hayes

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Re: [ChurchillChat] Groucho Marx talking about Winston Churchill

[chateaustegosaurus]

It's Groucho Marx  -  who cares whether it's true or not?

Jonathan Hayes





From: David Freeman wdavidfree...@yahoo.com
To: Churchill Chat churchillchat@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wed, November 28, 2012 8:11:58 PM
Subject: [ChurchillChat] Groucho Marx talking about Winston Churchill


Colleagues,
 
I don't know how much, if any, of this is true, but it is an amusing clip to 
watch.  Groucho Marx discusses meeting Mary Churchill and talking about her 
father:
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Dk1EKESoQY 
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Re: [ChurchillChat] OMG! Was Fisher the first to use term in letter to Churchill?

[chateaustegosaurus]

I think this is a bit of Fisher humor.  It appears to be a play on the Order of 
St. Michael and St. George, which has three ranks: Companion (CMG), Knight 
Commander (KCMG) and Knight Grand Cross (GCMG).  These initials were commonly 
translated as CMG - Call Me God,  KCMG - Kindly Call Me God and GCMG - God 
Calls Me God.  So, of course, OMG - Oh My God; what else would it be?

Actually a bit of a hoot.  Hadn't realized Jackie had a sense of humor.

Jonathan Hayes





From: Stan A. Orchard bullfrogcont...@shaw.ca
To: churchillchat@googlegroups.com
Sent: Thu, August 16, 2012 1:13:55 PM
Subject: Re: [ChurchillChat] OMG! Was Fisher the first to use term in letter 
to Churchill?

 
There is a bit of a parallel between telegrams of the  late-nineteenth and 
early 
twentieth centuries and Twitter messages of  today.  The Twitter message has 
developed various contracted forms of  words and  phrases because the message 
is 
strictly limited to a certain  number of characters.  Telegrams were not 
limited 
in size but became more  expensive with each added character.  So a similar 
convention arose decades  ago for contracting words, phrases and exclamations 
to 
lower the cost of sending  telegrams.  Who would have thought that Admiral 
Fisher and Paris  Hilton would have anything in common?
 
Stan
- Original Message - 
From: DavidFreeman 
To: Churchill Chat 
Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2012 12:41PM
Subject: [ChurchillChat] OMG! WasFisher the first to use term in letter 
to 
Churchill?


Colleagues,
 
Please see the below link for the story:
 
http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-57494560-1/historys-first-omg-directed-at-winston-churchill/

 
Can anyone confirm this?  I can't find the letter in the  relevant 
volume of the official biography companions, but Gilbert did  not 
include all of Fisher's letters to Churchill.
 
It's a nice story if it's true.

David  Freeman -- 
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Re: [ChurchillChat] Re: WSC Goes Electronic

[chateaustegosaurus]

www.ManyBooks.net has Malakand Field Force, River War, London to Ladysmith, 
River War and Liberalism and the Social Problem for free download.  I have no 
idea about what editions these are.  www.gutenberg.org has, plus the above and 
more, South African Memories by Lady Sarah Wilson (WSC's aunt) which is a 
ding-dong good read.  In her day she was as famous as WSC.  Winston S. 
Churchill 
is the one you want. Winston Churchill is the American novelist.

Jonathan Hayes






From: David Turrell daturr...@verizon.net
To: churchillchat@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wed, June 20, 2012 6:54:26 PM
Subject: [ChurchillChat] Re: WSC Goes Electronic

 
There appears to be a general perception that Churchill’s early works are in 
the 
public domain – Malakand,  London to Ladysmith, Ian Hamilton, and River War – 
and hence they are the ones mostly commonly pounced on by the print-on-demand 
vultures.
 
I cannot judge if this perception is accurate or not.  However, there is a very 
interesting exchange of letters in the Churchill archives which may cast some 
light.  See CHAR 8/274 120, 121 and 124.
 
Churchill, in July 1930, writes to Longmans Green indicating that he wishes to 
quote passages from those works in ‘My Early Life’ which was then in the later 
stages of composition.  He indicates that, since the works have long been out 
of 
print, the Longmans copyright may have expired but that in any case he is 
looking for their permission and coyly suggests that they might wish to return 
the rights to him.  He makes an offer of payment but, knowing WSC, it is 
clearly 
half-hearted at best.
 
Longmans respond that they are happy to transfer ‘such rights as we may have in 
the copyright to yourself. For this we should not like to ask any payment’. 

 
It seems, therefore, that Longmans actively relinquished their copyright back 
to 
WSC – but the key question is still whether, in 1930, they still retained any 
rights to relinquish. 

 
I would gladly quote the two letters in their entirety but, ironically, 
copyright considerations prevent me doing so.
 
Best,
 
Dave 
 


 
From:churchillchat@googlegroups.com [mailto:  churchillchat@googlegroups.com ] 
On Behalf Of Robert Courts
Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2012 5:05 AM
To: churchillchat@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [ChurchillChat] Re: WSC Goes Electronic
 
No, it isn't. I think I drew this to their attention about 10 years ago, but 
the 
result escapes me. But list members might like to just hold off on Gutenberg 
until we know. 
 
 
On 20 Jun 2012, at 08:53, Allen Packwood wrote:


Many thanks Robert. The copyright question would be one for Curtis Brown. the 
one thing I have learned is that it is never as straightforward as you think!
 
Allen
 


 
From:churchillchat@googlegroups.com [mailto: churchillchat@googlegroups.com ] 
On 
Behalf Of Raphael Saldanha
Sent: 19 June 2012 17:19
To: churchillchat@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [ChurchillChat] Re: WSC Goes Electronic
Oh! I'm sorry about the misleading link. Thanks for the correct one.
On Tue, Jun 19, 2012 at 1:14 PM, Robert Courts robertcou...@me.com wrote:
Allen is right about that, but these are our WSC: 
 
http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/author/1601
 
I've always wondered about the copyright position. 
 
These early books are available on the Amazon Kindle store, in fact. 
 
 
On 19 Jun 2012, at 17:07, Allen Packwood wrote:


I am afraid that this is the  US author Winston Churchill, not our Winston 
Spencer-Churchill.
 


 
From:churchillchat@googlegroups.com [mailto:churchillchat@googlegroups.com] On 
Behalf Of Raphael Saldanha
Sent: 19 June 2012 16:15
To: churchillchat@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [ChurchillChat] Re: WSC Goes Electronic
This appears to be a very nice project. But what can be said about the files 
available at the Project Gutenberg? http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/author/213 
Are they good sources?
On Tue, Jun 19, 2012 at 12:11 PM, Editor, Finest Hour tcc-...@sneakemail.com 
wrote:
Jonathan: I had the pleasure of helping steer them to the right editions (not 
those edited Collected Works-Leo Cooper ones monkeyed with by Fred Woods), and 
Mark Weber found them inexpensive copies with true texts they could scan. The 
result will be Churchill's words as he signed off on them. Reported in full in 
Finest Hour 155/Summer. We cannot underestimate the importance of this step 
forward. Huge credit to Gordon Wise at Curtis Brown who drove the effort.
 
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Re: [ChurchillChat] Re: Finest Hour - Action This Day

[chateaustegosaurus]

Boy, did everybody read me wrong.  Did I really muck it up that much or does 
every body have their blinkers on?

Jonathan Hayes





From: Johan Arve johan.a...@gmail.com
To: churchillchat@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sun, March 4, 2012 10:13:30 PM
Subject: Re: [ChurchillChat] Re: Finest Hour - Action This Day

It is somewhat amusing to hear these justifications for the blockade, since 
they 
exactly parallell those the Germans made when invading Belgium. They've been 
excoriated for it ever since.


On Mon, Mar 5, 2012 at 7:09 AM, chateaustegosau...@att.net wrote:

I stand by my comments, Mr. McMenamin.  War is war  -  it is not a vicar's 
garden party.  Inter arma leges silent as the Romans used to say.  


Do you really believe there is any such thing as international law when a 
country believes it is fighting for it's life?  I would point out that I was 
just commenting on Mr. McMenamin's comment on the British blockade  -  nothing 
else.  But, as long as he is plugging his book, why should I not plug mine?  
NO 
LILIES OR VIOLETS  -  Reminiscences of a Fighter Pilot, my story of my years 
as 
a U.S. Air Force fighter pilot between 1965 and 1976 - an interesting time, 
as 
the Chinese put it, to be an Air Force fighter  pilot, is available on Amazon, 
both US and UK in paperback and Kindle.

By the way, Mr. McMenamin, I really liked your book, BECOMING WINSTON 
CHURCHILL.  You really write well.

War has no amenities.  War is the essence of violence.  Moderation in war is 
imbecility.
   Admiral Jackie Fisher

You cannot qualify war in harsher terms than I will.  War is cruelty and you 
cannot refine it.
   General William T. Sherman  


Jonathan Hayes



From: David Turrell daturr...@verizon.net
To: churchillchat@googlegroups.com
Cc: m...@walterhav.com
Sent: Sun, March 4, 2012 8:55:25 PM
Subject: RE: [ChurchillChat] Re: Finest Hour - Action This Day


Bravo.

-Original Message-
From: churchillchat@googlegroups.com [mailto:churchillchat@googlegroups.com]
On Behalf Of mcmena...@walterhav.com
Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2012 6:37 PM
To: ChurchillChat
Cc: m...@walterhav.com
Subject: [ChurchillChat] Re: Finest Hour - Action This Day

My editor at FINEST HOUR, the quarterly journal of The Churchill
Centre, brought this to my attention and, ordinarily, I would not
bother to respond to an unnecessary lecture on something I never
implied, let alone wrote. But then I saw Mr. Downes' comment that he
did not know  what was written and hence had no context for
appreciating how off-base Mr. Hayes' condescending comments were. And
historically inaccurate to boot.

First, some context for Mr. Downes. I have been writing for quite some
time in the pages of FH a serial biography of Churchill titled Action
This Day where every quarter I spend 2,000 words describing what
Churchill was doing or saying during that season 125, 100, 75 and 50
years ago. It is a quite pleasant assignment and I enjoy reading
speeches, letters and other documents as well as Churchill's Official
Biography to find things about his life that aren't as well known as
others.  For example, Mr. Hayes' out-of-context quote was taken from
my Action This Day Winter 2012 column and in the '75 Years Ago'
segment (Winter 1936-37) of that column, I wrote of Churchill having
spent the day with his first love Pamela (Plowden) Lytton while his
wife Clementine  was on a ski holiday in the Alps with their daughter
Mary. All very innocent but sweet and I found it interesting because
in research for my 2007 book on Churchill's coming of age BECOMING
WINSTON CHURCHILL, THE UNTOLD STORY OF YOUNG WINSTON AND HIS AMERICAN
MENTOR, I came across quite a few letters from Winston to Pamela which
indicated their continuing affection for one another including a
letter from Pamela in 1949 reminding Winston he had proposed to her 50
years ago that day. Unfortunately, I missed that 1937 letter from
Winston about their spending the day together so I made up for my
earlier omission. More than you wanted to know Mr. Downes, I'm sure,
but blame it on Mr. Hayes. And, of course, I get to plug my book.

Second, the quote from my column by Mr. Hayes is incomplete. It was
taken from the '100 Years Ago' segment (Winter, 1911-12) and is the
last line from three paragraphs I wrote about  Churchill's concerns in
his new post as First Lord of the Admiralty on German naval expansion.
Two days after he and his wife were asssaulted in Belfast by a mob of
Irish Protestants, Churchill gave a speech in Glasgow on the
respective naval power of Britain and Germany where he attempted to
explain why sea power to an island nation like Britain was a
necessity whereas it was more in the nature of a luxury to a
continental power like Germany. A well-intentioned attempt by
Churchill but an unfortunate choice of words, especially as he wanted
to persuade the Germans to agree to a naval holiday in 1913 where
neither country would build any 

[ChurchillChat] Finest Hour - Action This Day

[chateaustegosaurus]

Mr. McMenahim's article states Only six years later, German civilians were 
dying of starvation as a consequence of the British fleet's successful blockade 
of German ports. as though that was something heinous.

Excuse me, Mr. McMenahim, but we are talking about war.  Those of us who have 
been in combat and have seen the fall of shot and shell have no illusions.  
Perhaps the continuation of the blockade after the Armistice is debatable - and 
there are certainly arguments on either side  -  but the blockade before that 
was perfectly proper.  War is very nasty, and properly so.  The British 
blockade 
was completely proper and the German civilian suffering was just would should 
occur in modern war.  


Sure am sorry 'bout that.  I don't like war any more than you do, but at least, 
having been there, I don't have any illusions about it.

Jonathan Hayes

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Re: [ChurchillChat] Sinews of Peace Significance and weight ?

[chateaustegosaurus]

It seems to have been an instance of plausible deniability.  I would find it 
very difficult to believe that neither the US nor the British governments knew 
what he was going to say, but since he was a private citizen and not a 
governmental office holder (other than MP), they could say it was his private 
opinion, not official policy, etc., etc. and get away with it.

Jonathan Hayes






From: Tom Dennis tomrden...@gmail.com
To: churchillchat@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wed, February 8, 2012 2:47:18 PM
Subject: [ChurchillChat] Sinews of Peace Significance and weight ?

I am just finishing writing a presentation on Churchill and the thought came to
me about the significance and weight of Churchill's presentation Sinews
of Peace.

His credibility at the time of this speech couldn't have been any better. How 
important was this speech ? Did the world and the United states need to hear
this speech ?

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Re: [ChurchillChat] Yet Another Churchill Quote?

[chateaustegosaurus]

That sounds very un-Churchillian to me.  Both his physical and moral courage 
were of very high calibre.

Jonathan Hayes





From: Stan A. Orchard bullfrogcont...@shaw.ca
To: ChurchillChat ChurchillChat@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sat, January 21, 2012 1:57:30 PM
Subject: [ChurchillChat] Yet Another Churchill Quote?

 
With recent events in Italy the  following quote (below) is being circulated 
widely on the internet.   However, even though I know that I've come across it 
before somewhere I have  been unable to quickly find this quote in various 
quote 
books.  It  seems like a rather undiplomatic thing for Churchill to have said 
to 
Italian  journalists, but it sounds like something he might have said back in  
England.   
 
Stan
 
 
After his retirement he  was cruising the Mediterranean on an Italian cruise 
liner. 


Some Italian  journalists asked why an ex British Prime Minister should chose 
an 
Italian ship. 


“There are three things I like about being on an Italian cruise ship”  said 
Churchill. 


“First the cuisine is unsurpassed. 

Second the  service is superb. 

And then, in time of emergency, there is none of  this nonsense about women 
and 
children first”. 

 
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Re: [ChurchillChat] Re: Cita Stelzer

[chateaustegosaurus]

You can get it now at www.amazon.co.uk.  I've ordered many books from them and 
they have no problem in shipping to the former colonies.  My recently published 
book, No Lilies or Violets, is also available from amazon.co.uk, as well as 
amazon.com.  (Shameless self-promotional plug).

Best regards,

Jonathan Hayes





From: PatFinn1940 pfinn2...@gmail.com
To: ChurchillChat churchillchat@googlegroups.com
Sent: Thu, December 15, 2011 9:59:57 AM
Subject: [ChurchillChat] Re: Cita Stelzer

Oh, this sounds like an excellent read!   Just to see the menus would
be worth buying the book!!   When might it be available in the US?

Pat Finnegan

On Dec 15, 3:55 am, Allen Packwood allen.packw...@chu.cam.ac.uk
wrote:
 Dear all,
 Corresponding with Cita Stelzer on a separate issue yesterday, reminded
 me that her new book, Dinner with Churchill, has just been published in
 the UK and has been on the Evening Standard's best seller list these
 past weeks. It is a fascinating look at Churchill's life from an
 entirely different angle: his personal diplomacy at the dinner table
 where he used his formidable gifts of conviviality, intelligence,
 humour, memory, anecdotal ability, hospitality all of which helped him
 to charm and ultimately to persuade his allies of his strategic
 policies.
 Cita's book contains many anecdotes, menus, seating plans and photos,
 many of which have never been seen before, many found in our Archives.
 It's a very good read and perhaps particularly at a time of feasting and
 over indulgence.

 Allen

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Re: [ChurchillChat] Re: Cita Stelzer

[chateaustegosaurus]

Well, I figured that Canadians would have the sophisticated discernment to 
appreciate true quality writing.

And as Churchill wrote to his mother (this may not be 100% correct).  This is 
a 
pushing age and we must push as hard as we can.

I've ordered Cita Stelzer's book.

Jonathan Hayes





From: Terry Reardon reard...@rogers.com
To: churchillchat@googlegroups.com
Sent: Thu, December 15, 2011 2:29:56 PM
Subject: Re: [ChurchillChat] Re: Cita Stelzer

 
From another of the former Colonies.
Amazon Canada shows the paperback to be released on  February 2nd, 2012.
Your volume, Jonathan, is, of course , also  available, north of the border.
Terry Reardon
 
 
- Original Message - 
From: chateaustegosau...@att.net 
To: churchillchat@googlegroups.com 
Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2011 3:53PM
Subject: Re: [ChurchillChat] Re: CitaStelzer


You can get it now at www.amazon.co.uk.  I've ordered many books from them
and they have no problem in shipping to the former colonies.  Myrecently 
published book, No Lilies orViolets, is also available from amazon.co.uk, 
as 
well asamazon.com.  (Shameless self-promotional plug).

Bestregards,

Jonathan Hayes





 From: PatFinn1940 pfinn2...@gmail.com
To: ChurchillChatchurchillchat@googlegroups.com
Sent: Thu, December 15, 2011 9:59:57AM
Subject: [ChurchillChat]Re: Cita Stelzer

Oh, this sounds like an excellent read! Just to see the menus would
be worth buying the book!!  When might itbe available in the US?

Pat Finnegan

On Dec 15, 3:55 am,Allen Packwood allen.packw...@chu.cam.ac.uk
wrote:
Dear all,
 Corresponding with Cita Stelzer on a separate issueyesterday, reminded
 me that her new book, Dinner with Churchill, hasjust been published in
 the UK and has been on the Evening Standard'sbest seller list these
 past weeks. It is a fascinating look atChurchill's life from an
 entirely different angle: his personaldiplomacy at the dinner table
 where he used his formidable gifts ofconviviality, intelligence,
 humour, memory, anecdotal ability,hospitality all of which helped him
 to charm and ultimately topersuade his allies of his strategic
 policies.
 Cita's bookcontains many anecdotes, menus, seating plans and photos,
 many ofwhich have never been seen before, many found in our Archives.
 It's avery good read and perhaps particularly at a time of feasting and
 overindulgence.

 Allen

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[ChurchillChat] Christmas, 1941

[chateaustegosaurus]

In case you haven't heard this.  Download it and play it for your family on 
Christmas Eve.

http://www.otr.com/ra/christmas/1941-12-24 MBS White House Christmas Tree 
Ceremony.mp3

Jonathan Hayes

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[ChurchillChat] Christmas, 1941 - directions

[chateaustegosaurus]

Clicking on the link ain't going to work; you have to type the whole thing in - 
including the spaces indicated.  Bit of a nuisance.

Jonathan Hayes

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Re: [ChurchillChat] British High Commissioner on hand to launch Churchill Society in Ottawa

[chateaustegosaurus]

Somehow when I see the word launch, I always think of smacking a bottle of 
champagne across the bow.  Hope that didn't happen in Ottawa.

Best Churchillian wishes to Ottawa  -  we're thrilled to have you on board!

Jonathan Hayes





From: John David Olsen jol...@winstonchurchill.org
To: ChurchillChat@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wed, December 7, 2011 6:47:41 PM
Subject: [ChurchillChat] British High Commissioner on hand to launch Churchill 
Society in Ottawa


Churchill Archives Centre and The Churchill Centre's Allen Packwood interviewed 
before speaking to the newest chapter of the Churchill Centre in Ottawa.

High Commissioner Helps Launch Churchill Society in Ottawa http://bit.ly/sB5CPa


-- 

---
JOHN DAVID OLSEN
Dir of Communications
+1-323-655-1800---
Please join The Churchill Centre and help preserve the thoughts, words and 
deeds 
of Winston Churchill for future generations. Members receive our quarterly, 
Finest Hour journal, our monthly e-newsletter Chartwell Bulletin, invitations 
to 
events. Ring us on 1-888-WSC-1874 or visit our website.
---
The Churchill Centre and Museum at the Churchill War Rooms, London
www.winstonchurchill.org

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[ChurchillChat] Churchill in the News

[chateaustegosaurus]

I noticed a headline in the Daily Telegraph  -  Winston Churchill made history 
- David Cameron never will.  Leaving aside the article content - which I 
wasn't 
interested in anyway - I had to take note that almost 50 years after his death, 
WSC is still headline material.  As Churchill Centre members, this may not be 
surprising to us, but I would venture to suggest that it should be.

Why should someone like WSC still be star quality after all this time?  Yes, we 
all know, but we should take the time to reflect on the WHY, consider what 
those 
enduring qualities were, and work to have them reflected in the current day.  
Don't ask what Churchill would do  -  as Lady Soames so trenchantly observes, 
that's stupid.  Ask what are the principles he would act on?  We may feel that 
he was wrong on occasion, but NEVER dishonorable.  That's what should be 
striven 
for.

Just my little half-farthing.

Jonathan Hayes

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Re: [ChurchillChat] Re: Accomplices : Churchill, Roosevelt and the Holocaust

[chateaustegosaurus]

The horrors of the Holocaust were certainly real, but one has to ask the 
question, what COULD have been done?  And, realistically, the answer has to be 
- not much.  The Holocaust occurred in the geographic middle of the Nazi 
empire, well away from any possible military action.  Those suggesting bombing 
of the camps are unaware of the high level of inaccuracy of Allied bombing 
(Robin Olds said he flew some photo recce missions of bomb damage and that he 
felt the safest place to fly during the strike was right over the target).  We 
would have probably killed an awful lot of camp inmates without any positive 
results had we done any bombing.  While the Allies were aware of what was going 
on, the high command realistically knew they could do nothing as a practical 
matter, and what would be the result of publicizing the situation?  Probably 
intense political pressure to DO something even if it would have negative 
results.

War has a lot of very unpleasant decisions; I've known Holocaust survivors and 
they certainly went through unbelievable HELL,  but what could have been 
REALISTICALLY done?  I hate to say it, but the decisions taken were - given 
what was known at the time - probably the right ones.

Jonathan Hayes

--- On Sun, 8/14/11, Lincoln lincoln.ja...@gmail.com wrote:

From: Lincoln lincoln.ja...@gmail.com
Subject: [ChurchillChat] Re: Accomplices : Churchill, Roosevelt and the 
Holocaust
To: ChurchillChat churchillchat@googlegroups.com
Date: Sunday, August 14, 2011, 1:02 PM

Yet another disaffected Jewish person obsessed with the 'wrongs' that
so-called Christian countries have perpetrated against his people.
Having no one left to blame, he decides to round on the men who
actually did most to free these people from the monstrous persecution
that had come upon them. How disgusting ingratitude is!

On Aug 13, 5:35 am, David Freeman wdavidfree...@yahoo.com wrote:
 The $85 dollar price should be sufficient to deter most readers from 
 re-visiting such ancient and long-exposed myths.

 --- On Sat, 8/13/11, Antoine Capet antca...@aol.com wrote:

 From: Antoine Capet antca...@aol.com
 Subject: [ChurchillChat] Accomplices : Churchill, Roosevelt and the Holocaust
 To: ChurchillChat@googlegroups.com
 Date: Saturday, August 13, 2011, 12:02 AM

 Dear all,

 The latest book in the field (below) has just appeared (July 2011).

 Best wishes,

 Professor Antoine Capet, FRHistS
 Head of British Studies
 University of Rouen
 Mont-Saint-Aignan 76821 (France)

 'Britain since 1914' Editor,
 Royal Historical Society Bibliography
 antoine.ca...@univ-rouen.fr

 Reviews Editor of Cercleshttp://www.cercles.com/review/reviews.html
 =

 Groth, Alexander J.
 Accomplices : Churchill, Roosevelt and the Holocaust

 New York, Bern, Berlin, Bruxelles, Frankfurt am Main, Oxford, Wien: Berg, 
 2011. XII, 293 pp.
 Studies in Modern European History. Vol. 67
 General Editor: Frank J. Coppa
 ISBN 978-1-4331-1463-2 hb.
 US$ 85.95

 This volume asserts that there was tacit cooperation in the Nazi 
 extermination of the Jewish population of Europe by British Prime Minister
 Winston Churchill and American President Franklin D. Roosevelt during the 
 Second World War. Although the Allies publicly recognized the
 Nazi massacre of the Jews in the London Declaration of December 17, 1942, the 
 policies they pursued allowed the genocide to continue. They
 did so, the author claims, in three ways: (1) refusal to publicly and 
 personally speak about and against the Nazi extermination of the Jews; (2)
 refusal to commit even one soldier, one plane, or one warship to any forcible 
 opposition to the «Final Solution» throughout the Second World
 War; and (3) obstruction of Jewish escape from Hitler's Europe. This book 
 explores the motivation for the policies Churchill and Roosevelt
 pursued.

 Alexander J. Groth is a Holocaust survivor, most of whose family perished 
 during the Nazi «Final Solution.» He received his PhD from Columbia
 University and his BA magna cum laude from the City College of New York. He 
 is Emeritus Professor of Political Science at the University
 of California, Davis, where he has taught since 1962, specializing in 
 comparative politics. Groth is the author and editor of numerous books
 including Comparative Politics (1971); People's Poland (1972); Public Policy 
 Across Nations (1985); Lincoln (1996); Democracies Against Hitler
 (1999); and, most recently, Holocaust Voices (2003).

 http://www.peterlang.com/download/datasheet/60414/datasheet_311463.pdf

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Re: [ChurchillChat] Churchill x Dowding

[chateaustegosaurus]

If it hadn't been for Dowding, the Battle of Britain would have been lost.  It 
was Dowding who pushed the development of radar (Prof. Lindemann was opposed to 
it), it was Dowding who pushed the development and acquisition of the eight-gun 
fighter.  It was Dowding who established the command and control structure 
which was so crucial to the Battle, and it was Dowding who protested vehemently 
against denuding Fighter Command in the Battle of France.  And it was Dowding 
who formulated the strategy (ably executed by Keith Park) which resulted in 
success.
 
There were, howver, some senior people who were opposed to Dowding and he went 
on and off the retired list a couple of times before the Battle.  During the 
Battle, there were strong differences of opinion between Park at 11 Group and 
Leigh-Mallory (George Mallory of Everest fame's younger brother) at 12 Group.  
Leigh-Mallory was successful in his behind-the-scenes politicking with Air 
Staff and political figures.  Al Deere probably put it best:  Dowding and Park 
won the Battle of Britain, but they lost the battle of words that followed...  
Dowding and Park were sand-bagged by Portal, Sholto Douglas and Leigh-Mallory.  
Both were treated very badly.
 
What did Churchill have to do with it?  Difficult to say.  Dowding saw 
Churchill and Churchill said he was surprised at what happened.  It is very 
difficult to imagine it could have happened without Churchill's knowledge and 
approval, BUT, as we well know, Churchill always insisted on every thing in 
writing and there's nothing on this.  So -  good question.  No answer.

Jonathan Hayes

--- On Fri, 4/1/11, Daniel Ibarra ibarra...@yahoo.com.br wrote:


From: Daniel Ibarra ibarra...@yahoo.com.br
Subject: [ChurchillChat] Churchill x Dowding
To: Churchill Chat churchillchat@googlegroups.com
Date: Friday, April 1, 2011, 1:15 PM






Coleagues from Churchill Chat,
 
In the dawn of the Battle of Britain Churchill fired Dowding from his post. I 
have seem some people considering this act of Churchill as a betrayal or a 
movement to get attention of the victory in the battle just for him, what I do 
not believe.
 
Can you pls help me to tell why Churchill fired Dowding on that moment?
 
Thank you
 
Daniel
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[ChurchillChat] Cavalry charge

[chateaustegosaurus]

As Churchillians, I imagine we have at least a passing interest in cavalry 
charges, so I thought this obit might not be totally off-topic.
 
Jonathan Hayes
 
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obituaries/8334018/Mario-Traverso.html
 

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Re: [ChurchillChat] Re: The King's Speech

[chateaustegosaurus]

Edward III?  Wasn't he dead?
 
Jonathan Hayes

--- On Fri, 1/28/11, Stan A. Orchard bullfrogcont...@shaw.ca wrote:


From: Stan A. Orchard bullfrogcont...@shaw.ca
Subject: Re: [ChurchillChat] Re: The King's Speech
To: churchillchat@googlegroups.com
Date: Friday, January 28, 2011, 1:44 PM


It should be pointed out that the abdication crisis was not just a political 
problem.  Britain's reigning monarch is also the head of the Church of England, 
and the proposition of marrying a twice-divorced woman would have created a 
tremendous uproar within the church.  Even in Churchill's role as only a 
flying buttress of the church, he would almost certainly have recognized this 
fact and respected the church's position as well as forseen the consequences of 
trying to over-rule church doctrine.  Not many years later Princess Margaret 
was forbidden by Queen Elizabeth to marry a divorced commoner for these same 
reasons.  It doesn't seem to be such a big deal today.  Churchill must have 
held out some vain hope that Edward III would eventually come to his senses and 
comprehend and embrace his responsibilities as king.  Is it true that Churchill 
wrote the king's abdication speech?

Stan

- Original Message - From: Quin nBastian qc...@msn.com
To: churchillchat@googlegroups.com
Sent: Friday, January 28, 2011 12:40 PM
Subject: RE: [ChurchillChat] Re: The King's Speech


 I have not seen 'the King's Speech yet but I am looking forward to doing so
 soon. As regards WSC's support of Wallis Simpson, the fact is that WSC was a
 royalist. I believe it is in the historical record that he was supportive of
 Edward and that included supporting him in his bid to marry Wallis Simpson.
 However, it must be remembered that at the time,  WSC knew little about
 Simpson's political leanings and was supporting his sovereign as a faithful
 servant.
 
 Having said that, I agree that with the perspective of time and events WSC's
 comment at the coronation of his brother George VI, would have been
 referring to Edward VIII.
 
 -Original Message-
 From: churchillchat@googlegroups.com [mailto:churchillchat@googlegroups.com]
 On Behalf Of Stan A. Orchard
 Sent: Friday, January 28, 2011 12:41 PM
 To: ChurchillChat
 Subject: Re: [ChurchillChat] Re: The King's Speech
 
 Incidentally, there was a very interesting interview a couple of days ago on
 CNN with the 73-year-old American screenwriter of 'The King's Speech', David
 Seidler.  He was a child stutterer, not a historian, and has worked on this
 project for the past 25 years.  He believes that only a stutterer could have
 written the screenplay in just this way.
 http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/bestoftv/2011/01/25/exp.ps.kings.speech.stu
 tter.cnn?iref=allsearch.
 
 It is very hard for me to believe that Winston Churchill could have ever
 considered Wallis Simpson to be a suitable or even tolerable addition to the
 Royal Family.  So in my opinion, Churchill must have been referring to
 Edward VIII in his comment to Clementine at the coronation since it
 otherwise seems to fly in the face of Churchill's seemingly life-long
 reverence for the institution, dignity and ritual of the British monarchy.
 
 Stan
 
 - Original Message - From: Editor/Finest Hour 
 tcc-...@sneakemail.com
 To: ChurchillChat churchillchat@googlegroups.com
 Sent: Friday, January 28, 2011 9:38 AM
 Subject: [ChurchillChat] Re: The King's Speech
 
 
 Paul, thanks. Most sources I checked say WSC made this remark during
 the coronation, but Lady Soames in her CLEMENTINE CHURCHILL says he
 made it as Queen Elizabeth (the later Queen Mum) was crowned--so I
 think your interpretation that he was referring to Walllis could be
 right. I
 
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[ChurchillChat] Stalin vs. Churchill and Roosevelt

[chateaustegosaurus]

Check out http://www.historynet.com/stalin-the-puppetmaster.htm
 
Basically, it proposes that Stalin was a far better negotiator than either WSC 
or FDR and so was able to get everything he wanted without giving anything up.  
I found it a very interesting article.
 
Jonathan Hayes

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Re: [ChurchillChat] Stalin vs. Churchill and Roosevelt

[chateaustegosaurus]

Stalin was going to take it, no question.  But WSC and FDR didn't have to agree.
 
Jonathan Hayes

--- On Mon, 1/3/11, Carey Stronach cestron...@comcast.net wrote:


From: Carey Stronach cestron...@comcast.net
Subject: Re: [ChurchillChat] Stalin vs. Churchill and Roosevelt
To: churchillchat@googlegroups.com
Date: Monday, January 3, 2011, 5:23 PM



#yiv914715257 p {margin:0;}


Stalin also had the Red Army, with more than twice as many troops as the 
Americans, British  Canadians combined.
CES



- Original Message -
From: chateaustegosau...@att.net
To: ChurchillChat@googlegroups.com
Sent: Monday, January 3, 2011 5:51:48 PM
Subject: [ChurchillChat] Stalin vs. Churchill and Roosevelt






Check out http://www.historynet.com/stalin-the-puppetmaster.htm
 
Basically, it proposes that Stalin was a far better negotiator than either WSC 
or FDR and so was able to get everything he wanted without giving anything up.  
I found it a very interesting article.
 
Jonathan Hayes
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Re: [ChurchillChat] Stalin vs. Churchill and Roosevelt

[chateaustegosaurus]

I didn't say they should have taken military action - that would have been 
obviously impossible.  The electorate in neither Britain or America would have 
stood for it.  But there was leverage.  We'll probably never know the full 
impact of Lend Lease on Russia, but it was significant.  Stalin was always 
afraid that Britain/United States would cut a deal with Hitler - just as 
WSC/FDR were afraid Stalin would do.  Britain went to war over Poland - and 
then abandoned them.
 
All of which is irrelevant.  The article's point is that Stalin made chumps out 
of both WSC and FDR.  I think the author makes a good case.
 
Jonathan Hayes

--- On Mon, 1/3/11, Carey Stronach cestron...@comcast.net wrote:


From: Carey Stronach cestron...@comcast.net
Subject: Re: [ChurchillChat] Stalin vs. Churchill and Roosevelt
To: churchillchat@googlegroups.com
Date: Monday, January 3, 2011, 8:43 PM



#yiv730383807 p {margin:0;}


What else could FDR and WSC do, start World War III just as World War II was 
ending? And how about the war in Asia? The atomic bomb had not been built and 
tested at this time, and they believed they needed Soviet help to defeat Japan.
CES 



- Original Message -
From: chateaustegosau...@att.net
To: churchillchat@googlegroups.com
Sent: Monday, January 3, 2011 11:34:57 PM
Subject: Re: [ChurchillChat] Stalin vs. Churchill and Roosevelt






Stalin was going to take it, no question.  But WSC and FDR didn't have to agree.
 
Jonathan Hayes

--- On Mon, 1/3/11, Carey Stronach cestron...@comcast.net wrote:


From: Carey Stronach cestron...@comcast.net
Subject: Re: [ChurchillChat] Stalin vs. Churchill and Roosevelt
To: churchillchat@googlegroups.com
Date: Monday, January 3, 2011, 5:23 PM



#yiv730383807 #yiv730383807yiv914715257 p {margin:0;}


Stalin also had the Red Army, with more than twice as many troops as the 
Americans, British  Canadians combined.
CES



- Original Message -
From: chateaustegosau...@att.net
To: ChurchillChat@googlegroups.com
Sent: Monday, January 3, 2011 5:51:48 PM
Subject: [ChurchillChat] Stalin vs. Churchill and Roosevelt






Check out http://www.historynet.com/stalin-the-puppetmaster.htm
 
Basically, it proposes that Stalin was a far better negotiator than either WSC 
or FDR and so was able to get everything he wanted without giving anything up.  
I found it a very interesting article.
 
Jonathan Hayes
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Re: [ChurchillChat] Re: Mail Online pictures : Defacing the Cenotaph, urinating on Churchill... how young thugs at student protest broke every taboo

[chateaustegosaurus]

To say this is really bad is an understatement.  I have no sympathy with them  
-  many an American family would be thrilled to only be paying L9,000 a year 
for college instead of the $50,000 which is becoming the norm here.
 
We really can't compare  -  in the '30s the Oxford Union debated Resolved, we 
will not fight for King and Country, but they did anyway.  They also didn't 
riot and destroy property.  I work with the local Air Force Reserve Officers 
Training Corps and those young men and women are the finest our country has 
ever produced (I'm just glad I don't have to compete with them).  These young 
rioting thugs are, I sincerely believe, a minority.  And they'd better hope 
there's enough of those outstanding young men and women such as are in the 
AFROTC around to protect them if push ever really comes to shove.
 
Jonathan Hayes
--- On Sat, 12/11/10, PatFinn1940 pfinn2...@gmail.com wrote:


From: PatFinn1940 pfinn2...@gmail.com
Subject: [ChurchillChat] Re: Mail Online pictures : Defacing the Cenotaph, 
urinating on Churchill... how young thugs at student protest broke every taboo
To: ChurchillChat churchillchat@googlegroups.com
Date: Saturday, December 11, 2010, 8:42 AM


When I read this article, and saw the photos, I was absolutely
outraged.   It made me remember my own UK visit--where I photographed
both the Cenotaph and Mr Churchill's statue.   It's left me
heartbroken too.

Pat Finnegan

On Dec 10, 5:07 pm, Antoine Capet antca...@aol.com wrote:
 Defacing the Cenotaph, urinating on Churchill... how young thugs at student
 protest broke every taboo

 Read more:

 http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1337315/TUITION-FEES-VOTE-PRO...

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[ChurchillChat] River War

[chateaustegosaurus]

I, of course, fully recognize Prof. Muller's most assiduous efforts and 
understand that publishers' time tables are measured in millenia, but would it 
be possible to have a progress report on the annotated River War?
 
I admire Prof. Muller's restraint.  At this point, I would be interviewing 
assassins with especial reference to their experience against publishers.
 
Jonathan Hayes

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[ChurchillChat] Bendor

[chateaustegosaurus]

Probably many of you already know this, but for the benefit of those who don't:
 
I've always been mildly intrigued by WSC's friend Bendor, Duke of 
Westminister.  Bendor sounds a bit odd to transatlantic ears, but then so do 
a lot of otther English names, so didn't give it further thought.
 
Until I was doing some heraldry research and came across the case of Scrope vs. 
Grosvenor in the Earl Marshal's Court circa 1390.  Who had the right to the 
coat of arms blazoned azure a bend d'or?
 
The Grosvenors lost that one, but obviously have long memories as a Grosvenor 
named a chestnut race hourse of his in the early 1800s Bend D'Or.    Later in 
the century, a young Grosvenor was born who proved to have the same 
chestnut-colored hair as the race horse had had.  So he got the nickname 
Bendor.
 
And there you have it.  You never know where Churchillian tidbits will lead you.
 
Jonathan Hayes

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Re: [ChurchillChat] Churchill on Physical Fitness

[chateaustegosaurus]

Churchill was not unathletic, however.  Public schools fencing champion, scored 
two of the four goals in the polo match where the 4th Hussars won the 
championship, played polo into his fifties.  Probably more of a jock than the 
Governor.
 
Jonathan Hayes

--- On Fri, 8/27/10, David Freeman wdavidfree...@yahoo.com wrote:


From: David Freeman wdavidfree...@yahoo.com
Subject: [ChurchillChat] Churchill on Physical Fitness
To: Churchill Chat churchillchat@googlegroups.com
Date: Friday, August 27, 2010, 8:00 PM







Colleagues,
 
Here's a link to a short piece from the world of US political commentary but 
which is also a refreshing reminder of the wit and wisdom of Winston Churchill:
 
http://www.commentarymagazine.com/blogs/index.php/bromund/348816

David Freeman
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Re: [ChurchillChat] Re: Unsinkable Aircraft Carrier

[chateaustegosaurus]

Which just goes to show there is nothing new under the sun and WSC's admonition 
Study history! is always relevant.  The Venetians attached sponsons to their 
warships to shallow their draft enough to enable them to enter the lagoon.  I 
doubt the Venetians were the first to do this sort of thing either.
 
Jonathan Hayes

--- On Wed, 8/25/10, Editor/Finest Hour tcc-...@sneakemail.com wrote:


From: Editor/Finest Hour tcc-...@sneakemail.com
Subject: [ChurchillChat] Re: Unsinkable Aircraft Carrier
To: ChurchillChat churchillchat@googlegroups.com
Date: Wednesday, August 25, 2010, 7:21 PM


Try deleting previous messages in boxes to shorten these replies.

There were also airborne battleships with pneumatic bags designed to
lift them out of the water to clear shallow spots in a propsed
invasion of the Baltic in 1939 (FINEST HOUR 94, Spring 1997, p7). But
neither this nor the iceberg carriers have anything to do with the
origin of the phrase.

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Re: [ChurchillChat] Re: Hussein Onyango Obama... tortured onChurchill's watch

[chateaustegosaurus]

I make it a habit to fact check absolutely everything I read as I am very much 
aware of confirmation bias (i.e., if you think person X is a low-down ornery 
polecat who would steal the wheels off a baby carriage, and someone says X 
cheats at cards, you'll probably believe it.  But do you know whether person X 
even plays card games?  Maybe he doesn't).
 
As Churchillians, we should be used to this  -  poor WSC, he's been accused of 
everything except the extinction of the dinosaurs (and I expect that will 
happen soon!!).  It is very unfortunate that frequently journalists do not fact 
check but go with confirmation bias.  It's a serious professional failing.  It 
is a virtue of the Churchill Centre that they attempt to correct this.  We have 
to live life as it is.  In a perverse way, we should perhaps feel glad that WSC 
is still, 45 years after his death, considered important enough to be accused 
of ridiculous stuff like this.

Lordy, Lordy, Lordy.  I learned long ago that if an idea is sufficiently 
ludicrous, you can't kill it.  You can take it out to a cross-roads, beneath a 
gallows under a full moon and bury it with a stake through its heart and it 
will still rise and walk again.  Expect it to continue because it will.
 
Jonathan Hayes
 

--- On Fri, 8/20/10, Quinn Bastian qc...@msn.com wrote:


From: Quinn Bastian qc...@msn.com
Subject: Re: [ChurchillChat] Re: Hussein Onyango Obama... tortured 
onChurchill's watch
To: Smith James M  jamesmsm...@dwt.com, churchillchat@googlegroups.com  
churchillchat@googlegroups.com
Date: Friday, August 20, 2010, 11:02 AM


Wouldn't it be more appropriate if people in positions of influence checked the 
facts before making false statements?
Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry®

-Original Message-
From: Smith  James M jamesmsm...@dwt.com
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 16:31:07 
To: churchillchat@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: [ChurchillChat] Re: Hussein Onyango Obama... tortured on
Churchill's watch

Isn't it rather, if anything, the bigotry of the right to blame Obama for (in 
addition to everything else under the sun) holding a grudge against WSC for an 
event that didn't happen on his watch, and alleging falsely that he claimed 
his grandfather was tortured?  Both Ms. West and Richard's link to FH explode 
this myth.  
  
The net of this is that the book reviewer was-- innocently or maliciously-- 
wrong in his attribution of anti-WSC feelings on the part of Obama. 
  
James M. Smith



From: churchillchat@googlegroups.com [mailto:churchillc...@googlegroups.com] On 
Behalf Of Johan Arve
Sent: Friday, August 20, 2010 4:26 AM
To: churchillchat@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [ChurchillChat] Re: Hussein Onyango Obama... tortured on 
Churchill's watch


Another example of the bigotry of the left.


On Fri, Aug 20, 2010 at 6:02 AM, Editor/Finest Hour tcc-...@sneakemail.com 
mailto:tcc-...@sneakemail.com  wrote:
Antoine, See Winston is Back and Bust-Out 2013 in Finest Hour 142,
pages 78,  and/or http://xrl.us/bhwooo

Diana West wrote on Townhall.com: 'In his Dreams of My Father, Obama
describes his grandfather's detention as lasting over six months
before he was found innocent (no mention of torture).  Whatever the
case, Churchill didn't become prime minister for the second time until
the end of 1951. The Mau Mau Rebellion didn't begin until the end of
1952, one year after Obama's grandfather's release.'




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[ChurchillChat] Tory Democracy

[chateaustegosaurus]

It's always a good day when the latest Finest Hour pops through the mail slot.  
I noticed a page on Tory Democracy.  I recall reading somewhere that someone 
asked Lord Randolph what Tory Democracy was.  He replied I'm not sure, but I 
believe it is principally opportunism.
 
 Si non è vero, è ben trovato.
 
Jonathan Hayes

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Re: [ChurchillChat] Re: When did the tide turn?

[chateaustegosaurus]

This is really a two part question.  First, is when did the forward motion of 
the Axis stop and second, when did the forward motion of the Allies start?
 
I would say, in the West, it was Alamein and Torch.  In the Pacific, 
Guadalcanal for both.  In Russia, Kursk for the first, not sure about the 
second.
 
Jonathan Hayes

--- On Tue, 8/3/10, Major McKinley dkaraya...@gmail.com wrote:


From: Major McKinley dkaraya...@gmail.com
Subject: [ChurchillChat] Re: When did the tide turn?
To: ChurchillChat churchillchat@googlegroups.com
Date: Tuesday, August 3, 2010, 10:16 AM


Here's an interesting article I read recently on the fantastic
HistoryNet.com website, publishers of various history magazines.

What Was the Turning Point of World War II?
http://www.historynet.com/what-was-the-turning-point-of-world-war-ii.htm

Not exactly your question, but it goes with it. I was surprised nobody
cited the Battle of Britain as the war's turning point. I think it's
part of the historian bias against the Western Powers and feeling that
with all the blood spilled in the East, that Russia deserves the
title. But without Britain holding on, there would have been no aid to
the Soviets and no victory at Stalingrad. Since Churchill said,
Hitler knows that he will have to break us in this Island or lose the
war, I'd argue that's what started lifting spirits, although there
was much hard fighting ahead. The failure to sweep the RAF from the
skies forced the Germans to postpone Operation Sea Lion indefinitely.
Although people continued predicting swift victory throughout the
later years, Churchill warned it would be a long slog and managed to
predict the war's end correctly much farther out down the line. (I
don't have the exact details handy, if anyone wants to add them.)

On Aug 2, 10:52 pm, EvanQ ev...@aol.com wrote:
 When did people in England feel that World War II had turned in the Allies' 
 favor?  I'm reading the Official Biography, and the Documents and yes, all 
 the footnotes.  What I wonder about is the people who had survived the Great 
 War and died during WWII.  Some of them would have died with England hanging 
 on by a thread, and others with the feeling that England would eventually 
 triumph again.  What date/year/battle would that have been?

 Also, I've been struck by the number of people who were very anti-Winston in 
 the post World War I years, but who served in his Government during WWII.  
 Can anyone point me to a book or article discussing this?

 Thanks,

 Evan

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Re: [ChurchillChat] Churchill the pop star

[chateaustegosaurus]

I am as fusty an old curmudgeon as anyone on this listserv.  I personally would 
not go for this sort of thing  -  BUT, I'm not trying to sell anything to 
anybody.  Big difference.
 
If this sort of stuff appeals to the younger set, why not make use of it to get 
your message across?  Sounds perfectly reasonable to me - with the caveat that 
someone who knows what they're doing should be the one producing it.
 
Compared to what theatrical directors routinely do to Shakespeare or opera 
directors to The Ring, WSC set to music seems pretty innocuous.
 
Jonathan Hayes

--- On Wed, 7/21/10, Terry Reardon reard...@rogers.com wrote:


From: Terry Reardon reard...@rogers.com
Subject: Re: [ChurchillChat] Churchill the pop star
To: churchillchat@googlegroups.com
Date: Wednesday, July 21, 2010, 11:36 AM



#yiv1266183866 .hmmessage P {
PADDING-BOTTOM:0px;MARGIN:0px;PADDING-LEFT:0px;PADDING-RIGHT:0px;PADDING-TOP:0px;}
#yiv1266183866 .hmmessage {
FONT-FAMILY:Verdana;FONT-SIZE:10pt;}


I fully agree with Rafal.
I watched the video twice to make sure that I could find nothing offensive in 
the production. 
With the inadequate attention paid to the teaching of history in my country, 
Canada, and likely in most others, we have to find innovative ways to bring 
Churchill to the attention of the public - this video is one way. Also no doubt 
some viewers to the video might be intrigued enough to scroll down the videos 
on the right side of the screen where there are extracts from some memorable 
Churchill speeches, plus the delicious Orson Welles and Richard Burton stories 
of their encounters with Churchill.
A couple of nights ago on a new TV show Hot in Cleveland the actress Betty 
White made a smart remark based on of our  Hero's lines, with the inference 
that she just made it up - the English actress Jane  Leeves responded That was 
Churchill. Who knows someone may enquire as to Who was Churchill.
By the way talking of the Beatles, on the cover of one of their albums Sgt. 
Pepper they show small photos of people they admire - one was WSC.
Terry Reardon
Toronto, Canada 

- Original Message - 
From: Rafal Heydel-Mankoo 
To: churchillchat@googlegroups.com 
Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2010 9:55 AM
Subject: RE: [ChurchillChat] Churchill the pop star

Again, I disagree. I don't particularly care for the music...but my tastes 
are exclusively classical and jazz. Nevertheless, we should be mindful not to 
be old-fashioned and out of touch.  I first discovered Churchill at the age of 
10 whilst watching TV -- he was portrayed as a somewhat bumbling and grumbling 
mediaeval knight in a cheap, commercial Disney film in which a 1970s American 
travels back to King Arthur's Court.  That portrayal was arguably more 
demeaning and more commercial than this silly video but it introduced me to 
Churchill's speeches and, at the impressionable age of 10, inspired me to learn 
more about him -- I joined the International Churchill Society at the age of 12 
and my passion for the Great Man has never diminished -- all due entirely to a 
Disney parody.  
 
I imagine that most teenagers of today viewing this video (the target 
audience) would have a very different reaction to that of some Churchill Chat 
participants and many of them would find this speech (one of my favourites -- 
and which is how I stumbled upon this video in the first place) inspiring. It 
would certainly introduce them to Churchill  for the first time and, given the 
current educational system, they might otherwise never encounter him. To me, 
that makes it a good thing.  Indeed, upon reflection, although of no great 
artistic merit, this video could be regarded as a young artist's modern pop 
tribute to Churchill -- but, dare I say, some of us (and I include myself) are 
as removed from the youth culture of today (particularly British youth culture) 
as Churchill was from the Beatles and the 60s pop culture.
 
I suppose this raises an important issue in terms of the Churchill 
Centre's Youth / Educational Outreach programme and the methods that might be 
used to introduce Churchill to those large segments of the young who may not 
be academically inclined, or who find history boring, but who could be inspired 
by his oratory. It is the incorporation of speeches into modern music (with the 
natural rhythm of oratory woven into the rhythm of the song) that has helped to 
interest teenagers in Martin Luther King and JFK and I do not see why the same 
could not be done for WSC.
 
RHM
 
 From: antca...@aol.com
 To: churchillchat@googlegroups.com
 Subject: Re: [ChurchillChat] Churchill the pop star
 Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 14:31:07 +0200
 
 It is indeed a disgrace that some people should be prepared to make money 
 with anything.
 
 Where is the fun ?
 
 The video is demeaning both for its authors and for those who enjoy this 
 sort of trash.
 
 A. Capet
 Rouen (France)
 ==
 
 From: Thom
 Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2010 2:26 PM
 To: 

Re: [ChurchillChat] Outraged, amused, or..?

[chateaustegosaurus]

I hate to say it, Carey, but this sort of stuff is practically être de rigueur 
these days.  The only thing that works is to be savage - calling them 
intellectually inferior for trying to rewrite history.  I hate not being nice, 
but being nice in these cases is water off a duck's back.
 
Jonathan Hayes


--- On Wed, 7/14/10, Carey Stronach cestron...@comcast.net wrote:


From: Carey Stronach cestron...@comcast.net
Subject: Re: [ChurchillChat] Outraged, amused, or..?
To: churchillchat@googlegroups.com
Date: Wednesday, July 14, 2010, 7:17 PM


This is as outrageous as Stalin having Trotsky's picture airbrushed out of old 
Soviet photos. An abomination!


- Original Message -
From: Geoff Zimmerman geoff...@yahoo.com
To: ChurchillChat@googlegroups.com
Sent: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 01:32:03 - (UTC)
Subject: [ChurchillChat] Outraged, amused, or..?

What do you think of this?
Geoff Zimmerman
geoff...@yahoo.com

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[ChurchillChat] Seventy Years Ago Today

[chateaustegosaurus]

At six p.m., WSC was asked by King George VI to form a government.  He said he 
would do so.

A great moment in history.

Jonathan Hayes

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Re: [ChurchillChat] Seventy Years Ago Today

[chateaustegosaurus]

You are SO right!  That must have been an amazing moment.  I figured all 
Churchillians were already familiar with that, so didn't clutter it up.  But it 
says volumes about both WSC and George VI - all positive.

I'm afraid they don't make them like that any more.

Jonathan Hayes
-- Original message from san...@churchillsbritainfoundation.org: 
-- 

If I may interject an addition to your story, the King greeted my 
great-grandfather with the statement; I suppose you don't know why I've 
summoned you. To which Churchill replied, 

Your Majesty, I couldn't possibly imagine.

I would have loved to have been there.

Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry



From: chateaustegosau...@att.net 
Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 19:02:44 +
To: ChurchillChat@googlegroups.com
Subject: [ChurchillChat] Seventy Years Ago Today


At six p.m., WSC was asked by King George VI to form a government.  He said he 
would do so.

A great moment in history.

Jonathan Hayes
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Re: [ChurchillChat] Churchill's worst decision may have been among his best.

[chateaustegosaurus]

You are right; Greece was one of Il Duce's mistakes.  He was jealous of 
Hitler's successes and wanted one of his own.  Hitler was not a happy camper 
when he heard about it.

What is being neglected is that Yugoslavia had also gone pro-Ally.  Hitler 
could not have invaded Russia with that flank open. He had to take out 
Yugoslavia and Greece to clear that flank.  And did so in fairly short order.  
Which did help to delay him too long on the inital blitzkieg - though there 
were other factors at work also.

The British did not cover themselves with glory in Greece.  One point that I 
remember was that, imbued with classical education, the British figured to stop 
the Germans at Thermopylae, not realizing the terrain had changed just a bit 
since the days of Leonidas.  Thermopylae was no longer a narrow pass, but a 
reasonably wide plain and the Germans roared on through.

There was a fair amount of classical nostalgia with the decision to go into 
Greece and it certainly did prevent the British from cleaning out North Africa 
before Rommel could set up shop.  But it did pay dividends later on.  I would 
put forward the thesis that the British effort then was what caused Stalin to 
cede control of Greece to the British at the end of the war.  Certainly it was 
against Stalin's geopolitical interests.  There was a very strong Communist 
movement in Greece and control of Greece would have put the squeeze on the 
Bosporus for the warm-water ports which have always been a Russian objective.

Greece was also a jumping-off point for the Germans for a pincer on Egypt 
through Syria.  The Germans did use Vichy airfields in Syria to supply Arab 
insurgents.  It's sometimes fashionable to pooh-pooh British military 
abilities, but their negation of the Syrian/Iraqi/Palestinian threat to their 
rear with totally inadequate forces speaks very well of their high command 
abilities.

Monday-morning quarterbacking is all very well, but we must remember that 
decisions are always made on the spot with very imperfect information.  It's a 
miltary truism that victory goes to the general who makes the fewest mistakes.  
And in playing what if? you can't just change one parameter.  That's dirty 
pool.  If, on the second day at Gettysburg, Dan Sickles hadn't put forward his 
salient into the Peach Orchard and Wheat Field, the Round Tops might well have 
been occupied by the Federals sooner and in greater strength, negating any 
potential Rebel flanking maneuver.

Studying military history is very valuable but only if one realizes the 
limitations the players were operating under.  Given the particular 
circumstances and with the information available, was this the right decision?  
Would it have been possible to obtain further information in a timely manner 
and would that have changed the decision?

Churchill and his generals were always operating under heavy pressure.  They 
made mistakes.  At the end of the day, however, the Germans made more.

Jonathan Hayes
-- Original message from Stirling Newberry 
stirling.newbe...@xigenics.net: -- 


The military factors in Greece included the reality that the Greeks had just 
defeated the Italian Army, and control of the Aegean Islands would be helpful 
to the German ability to resupply AfrikaCorps and further expansion, and the 
possibility of creating, however small a new front to the war. Hitler too, had 
to take time and resources away from a more important goal: Operation 
Barbarossa, as well as having to reduce attacks on the United Kingdom itself 
because of limits to availability of air power. Part of the result is that 
Greece was a continuous sore for the Germans and had one of the most dangerous 
resistance movements in Greece. Even at this distance, judgment on Greece 
varies widely from a blunder to the turning point in the war, it makes it hard 
to regard this as unequivocally Churchill's greatest mistake. 


From the long stand point, the Battle of Greece gave valuable insight into 
fighting the Wehrmacht, including occasions where the components of the 
blitzkrieg were thwarted or thrown into confusion. While, given the military 
facts, these were far short of being able to stop the invasion in Greece, they 
were important later on. For the first time a Panzer attack was blunted, the 
German airborne forces took heavy casualties, leading Hitler to forbid further 
airborne actions in Crete, heavy use of the German air capacity to support the 
invasion and contest the evacuation, took materiel away from the German air 
attacks on Britain, then still on going, and for potential counter attacks by 
the RAF against Germany. 


There is also no assurance that the additional forces would have, in fact, 
turned the tide in North Africa.


This is leaving aside the obvious reason to want to support an country that had 
just bloodied the axis nose, and was ready to fight the invasion.


In this case, both Hitler and Churchill were acting on instinct. 

Re: [ChurchillChat] Cartoons

[chateaustegosaurus]

Dunno about online resources, but the book W.S.C.  A Cartoon Biography  by 
Fred Urquhart (Cassells, 1955) should give you everything you're looking for.  
www.bookfinder.com has it readily available for under $20.

Jonathan Hayes
-- Original message from Perpetuo991 k.t.p.leon...@cox.net: 
-- 


 I am seeking an online resource that has cartoons of Churchill that 
 may be useful for a graduate level paper I am writing. I need cartoons 
 published from 1899-1914. Any information is greatly appreciated 
 
 Thank you, 
 
 KTL 
 
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 http://groups.google.com/group/churchillchat?hl=en. 
 

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[ChurchillChat] Winston Churchill (Grandson) Death

[chateaustegosaurus]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obituaries/politics-obituaries/7352232/Winston-Churchill.html

This does not give the cause of death.

Jonathan Hayes

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Re: [ChurchillChat] Winston Churchill (Grandson) Death

[chateaustegosaurus]

Darn good question, Antoine.  While I don't know the answer, I would suspect 
that (as is usually the case), the Daily Telegraph was providing the financial 
backing for the project - which undoubtably was extremely expensive.

Jonathan Hayes
-- Original message from Antoine Capet antca...@aol.com: 
-- 


 Many thanks for the link : 
 http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obituaries/politics-obituaries/7352232/Winston-C
  
 hurchill.html 
 
 A really complicated life! 
 
 There is a passage in the obituary which I do not understand : 
 
 When Randolph Churchill died in 1968, Churchill wanted to take on the 
 biography of Sir Winston that his father had begun. But Lord Hartwell, 
 proprietor of the Telegraph, with whom the decision lay, engaged the 
 academic Martin Gilbert, who went on to produce a classic.  
 
 Why should the proprietor of the Daily Telegraph have a say on Randolph 
 Churchill's successor for the Official Biography? From where did he derive 
 this (heavy) privilege? 
 
 Best wishes to all, 
 
 Antoine Capet, 
 Rouen (France) 
 
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Re: [ChurchillChat] Re: WSC--Hope

[chateaustegosaurus]

The Deserve Victory poster appears to be a son of the iconic Kitchener 
poster Your Country Needs You which was cloned into Uncle Sam for the United 
States.  Hardly surprising - when you've got somethin that works that well, 
milk it!  The change of phrase comes out just right.

Jonathan Hayes
-- Original message from Craig Horn dcraigh...@carolina.rr.com: 
-- 


 As I understand the Deserve Victory Poster first appeared as a broadside 
 (of which I have a photo) under which was written: 
 Any victory worth winning must be deserved. And, as our victories are 
 increased in scale, so must be our exertions. We shall win - Not through the 
 evil of our enemies, but through the merit in ourselves. Deserve Victory! 
 Let that be our touchstone for every thought, word and deed. 
 
 Craig Horn 
 Charlotte, NC 
 
 
 - Original Message - 
 From: PatFinn1940 
 To: ChurchillChat 
 Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2009 11:41 AM 
 Subject: [ChurchillChat] Re: WSC--Hope 
 
 
 I do like that 'Deserve Victory' poster! Is there any way to get a 
 copy of it? 
 
 And I do agree with Mr. Geschke: there needs to be a way of thinking 
 'outside the box', in regards to our current enemies. And I also 
 think that Mr. Churchill would be in the forefront of that thinking! 
 
 (Ms.) Pat Finnegan 
 http://pearlsofhistory.blogspot.com 
 
 On Dec 31, 9:25 am, richard geschke wrote: 
  Victory in the context of Churhill's time represents the last of the 
  European imperialistic conflicts. What we have today is the same threat 
  but packaged and utilized in a much different way. The ways to Victory 
  must utilize different approaches to dealing with terrorism utilizing 
  better intelligence and world cooperation, not one nation bearing the 
  load. The same principles of Allied cooperation must be utilized using 
  21st Century technology and thinking outside the box to get Victory. Old 
  imperialistic attitudes and old counterinsurgency methods are no longer 
  the way to do it. If Winston were here today, I think he would agree with 
  me. 
  
  Richard C. Geschk 
  
  Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2009 04:44:22 -0600 
  Subject: Re: [ChurchillChat] WSC--Hope 
  From: jonlellenb...@gmail.com 
  To: churchillchat@googlegroups.com 
  
  I don't wish to be a dog in the manger, but I think Mr. Churchill would 
  feel the attached wartime poster conveys his view of life and adversity 
  better than a reprise of the poster for the politician who returned his 
  statue in the White House to the British Government. I had a copy of this 
  poster from the Imperial War Museum that I put up in my office at the 
  Pentagon after 9/11 (a replacement office, my special ops bureau there 
  having lost our original offices in the attack), and it is now with me in 
  retirement in Chicago. Let us all pray we Deserve Victory in our struggles 
  in the new year, and not simply Hope for it. Special Forces and SEALs who 
  worked for me in that office at the Pentagon are still in harm's way in 
  Afghanistan and elsewhere today, far from their families in this holiday 
  season. 
  
  Jon Lellenberg 
  
  On Wed, Dec 30, 2009 at 7:22 PM, David Freeman 
  wrote: 
  
  Colleagues, 
  
  HOPE you enjoy the attached picture. It should give us all HOPE for the 
  New Year. 
  
  Cheers, 
  
  David 
  
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[ChurchillChat] Edward R. Murrow

[chateaustegosaurus]

I'm sure everyone found the article on Egbert Roscoe in the latest Finest Hour 
to be of interest.  I think you'll also find the following site of interest.  
Have your sound on and play the attached mp3 file.

http://www.otr.com/orch_hell.shtml

Jonathan Hayes

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[ChurchillChat] Re: Question about uniform

[chateaustegosaurus]

According to Newman's Birsds of South Africa, the sakabulu is the long-tailed widowbird and is noted as a "common resident".

Jonathan Hayes
-- Original message from "Paul Courtenay" nd...@tiscali.co.uk: --   The best authority is Doug Russell in his 2005 book "Winston Churchill,  Soldier". On Pages 282-283 he writes:   There were two forms of regimental badges, both made of brass. The  first was a Maltese cross with the letters SALH in the arms and date 1899 in  the centre. This badge was worn by Churchill in the photographs taken in  South Africa and was used to pin up his hat brim. The second badge had the  same Maltse cross plus a feather plume above its top arm and a brass ribbon  below on which was inscribed the regimental motto in Zulu: USIBA ENJALOH  NGAPAMBELE [Feathers to the Front]. Adorning the hat on the left side were  the long black tail feathers of the sakabulu bird..   Paul Courtenay- Original Message -  From:  To: "ChurchillChat"  Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 2:26 PM  Subject: [ChurchillChat] Question about uniform Does anyone know what it is a specific cross-symbol on the Churchill’s  hat?  http://i062.radikal.ru/0911/64/8eab5d46f999.jpg  This photo was taken when Winston Churchill served as Lieutenant in  the South African Light Horse. __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature  database 4538 (20091024) __   The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.   http://www.eset.com  --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~  You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups  "ChurchillChat" group.  To post to this group, send email to churchillchat@googlegroups.com  To unsubscribe from this group, send email to  churchillchat+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com  For more options, visit this group at  http://groups.google.com/group/churchillchat?hl=en  -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---  

[ChurchillChat] Re: Churchill Still Influencing Politics

[chateaustegosaurus]

I suppose it's too much to ask that people follow our Patron's strictures about never assuming what Churchill would do in a modern situation. Sometimes it's harmless - "would Chuchill Twitter?" - but more often it seems to follow the logic pattern:

Churchill did things which were courageous and right.
What I am proposing is courageous and right.
Ergo, Churchill would do what I'm proposing.

Either nobody is taught logical analysis any more or they don't want to go through the exercise.

Jonathan Hayes
-- Original message from "James T. Slattery" slatt...@satx.rr.com: -- 



http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article6886424.ece#--~--~-~--~~~---~--~~You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "ChurchillChat" group. To post to this group, send email to churchillchat@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to churchillchat+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/churchillchat?hl=en-~--~~~~--~~--~--~---

[ChurchillChat] Re: Churchill Still Influencing Politics

[chateaustegosaurus]

I'll buy off on the wit - as for the rest: his great friend, Lord Birkenhead said "When Winston is right, he is very right. When he is wrong, oh my God."

Jonathan Hayes
-- Original message from "Linne, Walter P" wli...@iupui.edu: -- 






Winston Churchill was a product of his time with great situational awareness, near flawless reasoning and a wonderful wit... 

Walt Linne 





From: churchillchat@googlegroups.com [mailto:churchillc...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of richard geschkeSent: Friday, October 23, 2009 1:03 PMTo: churchillchat@googlegroups.comCc: slatt...@satx.rr.comSubject: [ChurchillChat] Re: Churchill Still Influencing Politics

What Winston Churchill would do, should do in the context of today's politics is but mere conjecture. A waste of time. What he did do or failto do is what we should look at. All other exercises are but mere vapor escaping into political nonsense.Richard C. Geschke



From: chateaustegosau...@att.netTo: churchillchat@googlegroups.com; ChurchillChat@googlegroups.comCC: slatt...@satx.rr.comSubject: [ChurchillChat] Re: Churchill Still Influencing PoliticsDate: Fri, 23 Oct 2009 16:23:24 +

I suppose it's too much to ask that people follow our Patron's strictures about never assuming what Churchill would do in a modern situation. Sometimes it's harmless - "would Chuchill Twitter?" - but more often it seems to follow the logic pattern:



Churchill did things which were courageous and right.

What I am proposing is courageous and right.

Ergo, Churchill would do what I'm proposing.



Either nobody is taught logical analysis any more or they don't want to go through the exercise.



Jonathan Hayes

-- Original message from "James T. Slattery" slatt...@satx.rr.com: -- 

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article6886424.ece#
/html--~--~-~--~~~---~--~~You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "ChurchillChat" group. To post to this group, send email to churchillchat@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to churchillchat+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/churchillchat?hl=en-~--~~~~--~~--~--~---

[ChurchillChat] Re: Winston Churchill Essay - Help Please

[chateaustegosaurus]

Churchill was playing poker there too. "Don't just assume you'll get the Royal Navy. If you don't help us survive now, it might be the Germans who get the Royal Navy." I have no doubt FDR understood WSC's meaning loud and clear.

Steel true, blade straight

Jonathan Hayes


-- Original message from Major McKinley dkaraya...@gmail.com: --   I'd look up (and will paste) some items about the Roosevelt  administration's attitude towards the war, which required the recall  of US Ambassador Joe Kennedy, who saw the bleak situation of the Brits  and thought it was hopeless. The most the US hoped for was that when  -- they didn't think "if" -- Britain fell, they'd give us (Canada)  their fleet. Churchill told FDR that he would go down fighting, but  could not guarantee that another government in the UK might not make  more favorable terms with the invaders if the Germans came across the  Channel, and the biggest chit to play would have been the Royal Navy.  If anyone is confident in some well-researched alternative history,  perhaps they could recommend it. I think it's such a self-evident  Resolved it'll be hard to write.   --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups  "ChurchillChat" group.  To post to this group, send email to churchillchat@googlegroups.com  To unsubscribe from this group, send email to  churchillchat+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com  For more options, visit this group at  http://groups.google.com/group/churchillchat?hl=en  -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---  

[ChurchillChat] Re: Winston Churchill Essay - Help Please

[chateaustegosaurus]

It's not a quote and I didn't mean it as such. It's my view of the essence of the message that I believe Churchill was trying to send. No one - let alone Churchill - would ever have put it so bluntly. If you look at what was going on between them - this is the message Churchill was conveying.

Steel true, blade straight

Jonathan Hayes
-- Original message from jrwals...@comcast.net: -- 



Jonathon,
what is the source of that quote?
John walstad- Original Message -From: chateaustegosau...@att.netTo: churchillchat@googlegroups.com, "ChurchillChat" churchillchat@googlegroups.comCc: "Major McKinley" dkaraya...@gmail.comSent: Tuesday, October 20, 2009 3:38:32 PM GMT -08:00 US/Canada PacificSubject: [ChurchillChat] Re: Winston Churchill Essay - Help Please

Churchill was playing poker there too. "Don't just assume you'll get the Royal Navy. If you don't help us survive now, it might be the Germans who get the Royal Navy." I have no doubt FDR understood WSC's meaning loud and clear.

Steel true, blade straight

Jonathan Hayes


-- Original message from Major McKinley dkaraya...@gmail.com: --   I'd look up (and will paste) some items about the Roosevelt  administration's attitude towards the war, which required the recall  of US Ambassador Joe Kennedy, who saw the bleak situation of the Brits  and thought it was hopeless. The most the US hoped for was that when  -- they didn't think "if" -- Britain fell, they'd give us (Canada)  their fleet. Churchill told FDR that he would go down fighting, but  could not guarantee that another government in the UK might not make  more favorable terms with the invaders if the Germans came across the  Channel, and the biggest chit to play would have been the Royal Navy.  If anyone is confident in some well-researched alternative history,  perhaps they could recommend it. I think it's such a self-evident  Resolved it'll be hard to write.--~--~-~--~~~---~--~~You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "ChurchillChat" group. To post to this group, send email to churchillchat@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to churchillchat+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/churchillchat?hl=en-~--~~~~--~~--~--~---

[ChurchillChat] Re: WSC and EMK

[chateaustegosaurus]

I do suppose that Teddy Kennedy had an occasional nip, but I don't recall that ever having an effect on him in his work so I would regard that as irrelevant. Booze does not seem to have been a problem for him. I know there are innuendos, but I prefer to stick to hard facts.

According to his own accounts, WSC could imbibe heroic quantities of the sauce at dinner and then go on to work magnificently until all hours of the morning. One can be pardoned for a bit of skepticism. I do believe he may have been just a tad embroidering the actuality.

It's interesting in a way that all this comes up. In more enlightened times, as long as there were no adverse publiceffects, issues like this were not considered anyones' business.

Jonathan Hayes
-- Original message from "jmgal...@juno.com" jmgal...@juno.com: -- 
I do not find a comparison beyond the facts of their alcoholism and that they were men of their houses.
In his personal life, Churchill was energetic, heroic and, although eccentric, above reproach. Kennedy had his position given to him and lived a life that was thoroughly disgusting. Churchill's alcoholism was just the way he worked. Kennedy followed it to debauchery.
It is true that they both recovered from early mistakes, but Churchill's were, if they were mistakes at all, ones of judgment in the governmental arena. Kennedy's mistakes were of personal morality and criminal misconduct. While we remember Mary Jo, do not forget the student he paid to take a test for him.
Kennedy apparently had a talent of putting together coalitions to pass particular bills. He apparently was liked and, in a way, respected by other senators. He led by fitting the pieces together to complete the puzzle.
Churchill, by contrast, from my reading, was not as well liked personally, and did not excel in putting together coalitions, but in leading by the strength of his personality and the compelling nature of his policies. When men saw Churchill, they just had to follow.
While both traveled impressive legislative careers, there paths were very dissimilar.
Jim Gallen-- Original Message --From: "Stan A. Orchard" bullfrogcont...@shaw.caTo: churchillchat@googlegroups.comSubject: [ChurchillChat] Re: WSC and EMKDate: Sat, 29 Aug 2009 12:58:00 -0700
Churchill and Kennedy were both political survivors who forged long and highly successful careers with the spectre of past, and potentially career destroying,early mistakes/misdeeds hanging over their heads. With one or two exceptions they maintained friendly personal relationships with fellow politicians of all persuasions to the benefit of their political influence and legislative initiatives. Both had a charismatic presence, in part,colouredby ancestry and family history andsustained by their own powerful personalities, personal convictionsand productivity.Both affected people on a profound personal and emotional level, hence both were mourned and paid tribute to upon their deaths by a wide range of influential political friends and foes. It is hard for me to imagine Churchill thriving in the American political system or for Kennedy to havereached such heights inBritish politics - butboth reached and sustained high levels of successand impact within their respective systems.

Grave dancing on this discussion listis rather unseemly and isn't very Churchillian.

Stan

 

- Original Message - 
From: Geoff Zimmerman 
To: churchillchat@googlegroups.com 
Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2009 11:54 AM
Subject: [ChurchillChat] Re: WSC and EMK



Yes. Forgetting about politics, Kennedy throughout his life was a man of low character. At Chappaquiddick he behaved as a coward. I don't see any basis for comparing him to Churchill.Geoff Zimmermangeoff...@yahoo.com 




From: "chateaustegosau...@att.net" chateaustegosau...@att.netTo: churchillchat@googlegroups.comSent: Saturday, August 29, 2009 11:17:06 AMSubject: [ChurchillChat] Re: WSC and EMK

I will not bring politics into the discussion. But I refuse to believe that WSC would ever have acted as despicably as the late Senator Kennedy did at Chappaquiddick. Had he not been a Kennedy in Massachusetts, he would have spent a goodly number of years in the slammer.

The media has been eager to sweep Mary Jo Kopechne under the rug. She should not be forgotten.

Jonathan Hayes
-- Original message from "Joe Hern" jh...@fhmboston.com: --   A new thread: Edward Moore Kennedy and Winston Leonard Spencer Churchill   As a Churchillian, and a man from Massachusetts who proudly wears a PT 109  tie clasp, I can't help but see parallels between my late senator for most  of my life and WSC.   The scenes at the JFK Library in Boston of ordinary folk waiting in line  over three hours to pass the bier are reminiscent of 1965. Due to popular  demand, viewing was extended past the scheduled time; another parallel.   I hear that the British and the Irish P.M.s are to attend Senator Kennedy's  rites 

[ChurchillChat] Re: Churchill did not like to visit hospitals

[chateaustegosaurus]

One question would be, was it part of his job to visit hospitals? The only time that I can think of when it would have been was when he was a battalion commander in the Royal Scots Fusiliers when (if possible) it would have been part of his job to have visited wounded from his command. Of course, in the conditions prevailing in WWI, that probably wouldn't have been very feasible. Other than that, I can't think of a time when it would have been part of his duties. I would doubt that hospital personnel would appreciate miscellaneous visiting firemen conducting "visits" with all the dislocation that would entail.

Jonathan Hayes
-- Original message from Doug Russell airdri...@hotmail.com: -- 

Though not as dramatic as the skin graft episode, Churchilldid visit a military hospital in Natalupon his arrival there in 1899 to see his Fourth Hussars friend Reggie Barnes who had been wounded in action in the Boer War. Douglas S. Russell Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2009 08:17:08 -0700 Subject: [ChurchillChat] Re: Churchill "did not like to visit hospitals" From: dkaraya...@gmail.com To: ChurchillChat@googlegroups.com   Churchill himself offers a slightly less heroic, but more humorous -- and human -- account. He sometimes adjusted accounts after, of course, in the case of My Early Life to inspire young men of Britain to follow his example as an average man. Same reason he often focused on stories of how poor he'd been as a student. The phonetics of the accent are a nice touch.  Here's his account from My Early Life:  In Cairo I found Dick Molyneux, a subaltern in the Blues, who like myself had been attached to the 2 ist. He had been seriously wounded by a sword-cutabove his right wrist. This had severed all the muscles and forced him to drop his revolver. At the same time his horse had been shot at close quarters. Molyneux had been rescued from certain slaughter by the heroism of one of his troopers. He was now proceeding to England in charge of a hospital nurse. I decided to keep him company. While we were talking, the doctor came in to dress his wound. It was a horrible gash, and the doctor was anxious that it should be skinned over as soon as possible. He said something in a low tone to the nurse, who bared her arm. They retired into a corner, where he began to cut a piece of skin off her to transfer to Molyneux's wound. The poor nurse blanched, and the doc tor turned upon me. He was a great raw-boned Irishman. 'Oi'll have to take it off you,' he said. There was no escape, and as I rolled up my sleeve he added genially, "Y'eva heeard of a man being flayed aloive? Well, this is what it feels loike." He then proceeded to cut a piece of skin and some flesh about the size of a shilling from the inside of my forearm. My sensations as he sawed the razor slowly to and fro fully justified his description of the ordeal. However, I managed to hold out until he had cut a beautiful piece of skin with a thin layer of flesh attached to it. This precious fragment was then grafted on to my friend's wound. It remains there to this day and did him lasting good in many ways. I for my part keep the scar as a souvenir."On Jun 17, 5:25 pm, carolmuelle...@sbcglobal.net wrote:   Churchill did one better than just a hospital visit to a fellow officer in his early career during 1898 in the Sudan. Hearing that fellow officer Richard Molyneaux was badly wounded and needed a skin graft, he promptly showed up at the hospital and donated a piece of himself for a skin graft; Churchill received a letter 47 years later from the donee See a charming description of the incident from WSC himself on page 100 of "Churchill A Life by Sir Martin Gilbert", the Owl Book Edition by Henry Holt for the tale (among other sources).   Carol  --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "ChurchillChat" group. To post to this group, send email to ChurchillChat@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to churchillchat+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/ChurchillChat?hl=en-~--~~~~--~~--~--~---

[ChurchillChat] Re: Fox News slander Churchill

[chateaustegosaurus]

Well, well. You learn something new everyday. I had no idea anybody paid any attention anymore to MSNBC's ravings. I wouldn't believe them if they said today was Tuesday.

Jonathan Hayes
-- Original message from Rich H richric...@gmail.com: --   I don't know if the Churchill family read this forum, but if so they  might want to send a lawyer's letter to Fox News and Bill O'Reilly:   http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3036677/#30691108   --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups  "ChurchillChat" group.  To post to this group, send email to ChurchillChat@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to  churchillchat+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at  http://groups.google.com/group/ChurchillChat?hl=en  -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---  

[ChurchillChat] Mangled Quote

[chateaustegosaurus]

In today's Wall Street Journal, Dennis Berman in his column, "The Game", states: "As Winston Churchill might put it, GMAC is a financial black hole stuffed into a governance black box."

He couldn't have stretched or twisted that one much more! Poor Sir Winston - the things done in his name.

Jonathan Hayes

[ChurchillChat] Re: Fox News slander Churchill

[chateaustegosaurus]

Ah, well, ah, well. I don't watch Fox and, in spite of what my wife says, I'm not a lunatic. However, since I am a combat veteran, I am a potential terrorist. 

Jonathan Hayes
-- Original message from "Smith, James M" jamesmsm...@dwt.com: -- 

Well, well. Weare not all Fox lunatics.

The poster appropriately called attention to a commentary (an O'Reilly attack, actually) on WSC. The below reply is an attack on... MSNBC. Is this an appropriate use of ChurchillChat?



From: ChurchillChat@googlegroups.com [mailto:churchillc...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of chateaustegosau...@att.netSent: Tuesday, May 12, 2009 11:40 AMTo: ChurchillChat@googlegroups.com; ChurchillChatSubject: [ChurchillChat] Re: Fox News slander Churchill


Well, well. You learn something new everyday. I had no idea anybody paid any attention anymore to MSNBC's ravings. I wouldn't believe them if they said today was Tuesday.

Jonathan Hayes
-- Original message from Rich H richric...@gmail.com: --   I don't know if the Churchill family read this forum, but if so they  might want to send a lawyer's letter to Fox News and Bill O'Reilly:   http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3036677/#30691108   --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "ChurchillChat" group. To post to this group, send email to ChurchillChat@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to churchillchat+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/ChurchillChat?hl=en-~--~~~~--~~--~--~---

[ChurchillChat] Re: Lord Moran's Book on WSC

[chateaustegosaurus]

Holmes was inconsistent in this: I consider that a man's brain originally is like a little empty attic, and you have to stock it with such furniture as you choose. A fool takes in all the lumber of every sort that he comes across, so that the knowledge that might be useful to him gets crowded out, or best is jumbled up with a lot of other things, so that he has a difficulty in laying his hands upon it. Now the skilled workman is very careful indeed as to what he takes into his brain-attic. He will have nothing but the tools which may help him in doing his work, but of these he has a large assortment, and all in the most perfect order." But also "I am an omniverous reader with a strangely retentive memory for trifles."

Like Holmes, Churchill was very much a sort of autodidact, lacking much of the "rounding" a more conventional education might have provided.

Steel true, blade straight

Jonathan Hayes
-- Original message from "Editor/Finest Hour" tcc-...@sneakemail.com: --Anfa's message reminds me that I also read this book when researching thelife of T S Eliot. It was in 1960 in Tangiers when Moran introduced WSC to   the poet and Winston didn't appear to know of him! I wonder what that says   about our man at this time of his life?   Bob: Interesting. Some light is shed on this by Professor David Dilks,  in his foreword to my second quotations book, "The Definitive Wit of  Winston Churchill" (autumn; see "books" on richardlangworth.com).  Dilks's point is one I hadn't fully appreciated:   "With a prodigious memory Churchill could master large tracts of  Gibbon or Macaulay, and at the same time remain ignorant of much which  someone more conventionally educated would have been expected to know.  Thus he had not read many of the great novels, and had neglected many  notable poets. He was after all a man of a fierce physical energy and  restlessness, with endless and pressing concerns from early youth to  old age. His knowledge of literature, and of many other subjects,  remained patchy. What he did know he knew extremely well, thanks to  that wonderful power of recall. A couple of weeks after the Prime  Minister’s severe stroke in the summer of 1953, he recited to his  doctor Lord Moran long extracts from a poem by Longfellow. Asked when  he had last read it, Churchill replied 'About fifty years ago.'   “'You will know, or Watson has written in vain, that I hold a vast  store of out-of-the-way knowledge, without scientific system, but very  available for the needs of my work. My mind is like a crowded box-room  with packets of all sorts stowed away therein—so many that I may well  have but a vague perception of what was there.' Thus Sherlock Holmes;  while Churchill used to put the point more prosaically by saying that  he could generally dip his bucket into the well and come up with  something useful." --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~  You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups  "ChurchillChat" group.  To post to this group, send email to ChurchillChat@googlegroups.com  To unsubscribe from this group, send email to  churchillchat+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com  For more options, visit this group at  http://groups.google.com/group/ChurchillChat?hl=en  -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---  

[ChurchillChat] Re: Book Recommendation

[chateaustegosaurus]

Hoo, boy! Getting into dangerous waters here, chaps! However, Churchill was an excellent athlete (fencing, polo), physically brave (almost to the point of foolhardiness), a lover of fine cigars and whisky. You can choose the Churchill you want.

Jonathan hayes
-- Original message from Carol Mueller carolmuelle...@sbcglobal.net: -- 




Dear Manly Man,

I don't think Churchill is your man! He went weak-kneed at the sight of a beautiful or intelligent woman. He cried copiously and was terrifically sentimental. He married a strong, (not to say 'manly') woman and 'lived happily ever-after.' He was masculine without being hateful of anyone ('except Hitler, and that was strictly professional...') and overall is a poor roll-model for your group. His overall positive attitude comes out in all his written works and could deflect your group from its purpose.Although I have not been able to offer you a recommendation, I see that many other Churchillians have stepped up and provided you with assistance. So, carry on, soldier!

p.s. Are women allowed in your Churchill Centre South Texas?

Carol--- On Mon, 4/20/09, James T. Slattery slatt...@satx.rr.com wrote:
From: James T. Slattery slatt...@satx.rr.comSubject: [ChurchillChat] Book RecommendationTo: ChurchillChat@googlegroups.comDate: Monday, April 20, 2009, 1:19 PM



I founded and operate a men's onlybook club at http://www.he-manwomanhatersclub.net

We read books about manly men doing manly things in a manly way. I want to feature a book about Churchill for our meeting in June.

The book has to be a moderate length read with action and it has to be available throughmajor book sellers. 

I will appreciate any recommendations.

Thank you,

jim
James (Jim) T. SlatteryFounder, The Churchill Centre South Texas--~--~-~--~~~---~--~~You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "ChurchillChat" group. To post to this group, send email to ChurchillChat@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to churchillchat+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/ChurchillChat?hl=en-~--~~~~--~~--~--~---

[ChurchillChat] Re: Francis Neilson's The Tragedy of Europe

[chateaustegosaurus]

Neilson obviously can't have a very high opinion of prewar European leaders if he does think they were less tyrannical than Hitler. You have to be strong to be a tyrant and none of the democratic ones were. Who was this General Robert Wood? The name is not familiar.

Jonathan Hayes
-- Original message from Scott Manning scottmannin...@gmail.com: -- I just read through Neilson's article on JSTOR as well. Neilson contends that prior to March 1939, Hitler was no more a tyrant than any other European leader. He identifies the guarantee to Poland as the point in which Hitler was forced into tyrany.Neilson concludes his article with a often repeated quote:
It was in November 1936, that Churchill and General Robert Wood lunched together in London, when Churchill said, "Germany getting too strong and we must smash her." Perhaps this was the real reason why Hitler later became a tyrant.Has anyone seen the source of this quote? Every book I've seen this quote references another book which references another book, but never the source document.Scott ManningPhiladelphia, PAhttp://www.digitalsurvivors.com/--~--~-~--~~~---~--~~You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "ChurchillChat" group. To post to this group, send email to ChurchillChat@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to churchillchat+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/ChurchillChat?hl=en-~--~~~~--~~--~--~---

[ChurchillChat] Elizabeth Nel

[chateaustegosaurus]

Those of us on the 1999 South Africa trip will have great memories of Elizabeth Nel and her husband Frans. You may find this link interesting.

http://www.foxnews,com/story/0,2933,482148,00.html


Jonathan Hayes

[ChurchillChat] Joan Bright Astley

[chateaustegosaurus]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/obituaries/article5446082.ece

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obituaries/4077305/Joan-Bright-Astley.html

Jonathan Hayes

[ChurchillChat] A Passing of a Great Sailor

[chateaustegosaurus]

Ted Briggs, the last surviving of the three survivors of HMS Hood, has died at age 85. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obituaries/3140770/Ted-Briggs.html

We shall not see their like again. Ave atque vale.

Jonathan Hayes