Re: Still having problems with Inter-vlan routing! Help! [7:10950]
Post the conf of your router and cat to have more visibility. Claude-Vincent Perez CCIE# 7419, CCNP, CCDP --- cisco guru wrote: > Hi, > I am still not able to get inter-vlan routing b/w 2 > pc's connected to a Cat > 5 switch and a 2620 router. > Basically, I have 2 pc's connected to a Cat 5000, > ip's, 30.1.1.30. def. > gwy. 30.1.1.100 and 40.1.1.10 and def. gwy. > 40.1.1.100 > The sc0 on the swich is 30.1.1.50 and def. gwy. > 30.1.1.100 > On the 2620, I have 2 subif's, f0/0.1 at 30.1.1.100 > and f0/0.40 at > 40.1.1.100 and isl encap enabled. > Port 2/11 on the Cat 5 has trunking enabled for the > 2620. > Ping works from pc1 (30.1.1.30). Can ping the Cat 5 > and the 2620 router.( I > assumed since the pc and the switch were in Vlan 1 > by default, it worked). > Ditto from the Cat5 itself and the router back to > the pc. > BUT cannot ping 40.1.1.100 from the 2nd pc and > vice-versa from the router. > Reloaded the router to see if it works. No luck. > What is it I am missing on the switch to get this > working?? > Any help/advise would be gratefully accepted. > Sincerely. > > > _________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at > http://explorer.msn.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] = Claude-Vincent Perez CCIE# 7419, CCDP, CCNP __ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=10950&t=10950 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Cisco Certifications still worth anything? [7:10599]
Let's say that not every CCIE get all these certs. Moreover, being certified CCIE doesn't prevent me from recertifying CCNP and CCDP every 3 years as far as I know ;-( Cheers, Claude-Vincent Perez CCIE# 7419, CCDP, CCNP --- hal9001 wrote: > Thankyou, William, it is a long, very hard road and > in this consumer > orientated society unless you advertise your wares > you will end up at the > bottom of the pile! > > Karl - Bottom of the Pile! > - Original Message - > From: "William Gragido" > To: "'hal9001'" ; > Sent: Monday, July 02, 2001 10:13 PM > Subject: RE: Cisco Certifications still worth > anything? [7:10599] > > > > I think that Claude has every right to put them > there if he so desires > > seeing as they are different certifications and he > earned them. > > > > -Original Message- > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of > > hal9001 > > Sent: Monday, July 02, 2001 3:31 PM > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Subject: Re: Cisco Certifications still worth > anything? [7:10599] > > > > > > Flaunt it Claude flaunt it! Dennis I gather he's > a great guy and a real > hit > > with the ladies as well, apparently they are all > choked or is that they > get > > all choked up about him. > > > > Karl > > - Original Message - > > From: "Dennis H" > > To: > > Sent: Monday, July 02, 2001 9:12 PM > > Subject: Re: Cisco Certifications still worth > anything? [7:10599] > > > > > > > Claude, > > > > > > Don't you think it's a little tacky to put CCDP > and CCNP after CCIE? > The > > > fact that you're CCIE should demonstrate you're > ABOVE NP/DP level, no? > > > > > > Dennis > > > > > > > > > ""Claude-Vincent"" wrote in message > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > > > > I agree with you, guys. In my case, I am > working on > > > > writing proposals, designing networks etc. as > you said > > > > and the network implementation is done by the > service > > > > department. Fortunately my company is a > training Gold > > > > partner so I can still play with all I want at > any > > > > time. > > > > > > > > Claude-Vincent > > > > CCIE# 7419, CCDP, CCNP > > > > > > > > --- nrf wrote: > > > > > I first have to say that I agree with you in > that I > > > > > find very few CCIE's > > > > > actually performing gritty hands-on work. > So then > > > > > you are probably > > > > > wondering what is the whole point of working > on your > > > > > configuration and > > > > > troubleshooting skills to become a CCIE, > only to > > > > > then become shunted into a > > > > > position where those skills are rarely used? > I have > > > > > also thought long and > > > > > hard about this phenomena. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > OK, I'm going to open a can of worms here, > and go > > > > > off on a bit of a tangent, > > > > > but just bear with me. I believe that > criticisms of > > > > > the utility of industry > > > > > certifications could also be said about the > college > > > > > degree. Sure, CCIE's > > > > > are routinely put into high-level positions > that > > > > > involve little of the > > > > > hands-on configuring and troubleshooting > that is the > > > > > very heart of the CCIE. > > > > > But as we all know, many companies have > positions > > > > > that require job > > > > > candidates to have a degree, but few of > those > > > > > positions actually require > > > > > the knowledge of the exact subjects people > learn > > > > > in college. Would-be > > > > > flamers, hear me out. > > > > > > > > > > Consider the average bachelor's degree. If > it is in > > > > > the humanities, you > > > > > spent quite a bit of time studying various > authors > > > > > or artists, writing > > > > > papers on literary and artistic criticism > (the who, > > > > > the what and the why of > >
Re: FW: Access list problem [7:9939]
William, HTTPS port number is 443. Claude-Vincent Perez CCIE# 7419, CCDP, CCNP --- William Harrison wrote: > John, > > Access list looks good, but do not forget https > (442) and check your ip > statements (not enough info.) > > HIH > Bill > > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of > John Brandis > Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2001 3:26 AM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Access list problem [7:9939] > > > Hi All, > > I thought I was on top of access lists, until today. > When ever I apply > this particualr access list in IOS 11.2 , nothing on > the network can > view internet pages. They can ping no problem but > nothing else. Please > advise if you can, on which line the error is. > Thanks all, I appreciate it. > > Extended IP access list 110 > deny tcp any any eq 139 > permit udp any any eq domain > permit tcp any any eq domain > permit icmp any any > permit tcp any host 203.111.42.200 eq ftp-data > permit tcp any host 203.111.42.200 eq ftp > permit tcp any host 203.111.42.200 eq 22 > permit tcp any host 203.111.42.204 eq ftp-data > permit tcp any host 203.111.42.204 eq ftp > permit tcp any host 203.111.42.204 eq www > permit tcp any host 203.111.42.204 eq 3389 > permit tcp any host 203.111.42.215 eq smtp > permit tcp any host 203.111.42.215 eq www > permit tcp any host 203.111.42.215 eq 3389 > permit ip host 203.111.42.224 any > permit ip host 203.111.42.225 any > permit ip host 203.111.42.226 any [EMAIL PROTECTED] = Claude-Vincent Perez CCIE# 7419, CCDP, CCNP __ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=10641&t=9939 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Cisco Certifications still worth anything? [7:10599]
I agree with you, guys. In my case, I am working on writing proposals, designing networks etc. as you said and the network implementation is done by the service department. Fortunately my company is a training Gold partner so I can still play with all I want at any time. Claude-Vincent CCIE# 7419, CCDP, CCNP --- nrf wrote: > I first have to say that I agree with you in that I > find very few CCIE's > actually performing gritty hands-on work. So then > you are probably > wondering what is the whole point of working on your > configuration and > troubleshooting skills to become a CCIE, only to > then become shunted into a > position where those skills are rarely used? I have > also thought long and > hard about this phenomena. > > > OK, I'm going to open a can of worms here, and go > off on a bit of a tangent, > but just bear with me. I believe that criticisms of > the utility of industry > certifications could also be said about the college > degree. Sure, CCIE's > are routinely put into high-level positions that > involve little of the > hands-on configuring and troubleshooting that is the > very heart of the CCIE. > But as we all know, many companies have positions > that require job > candidates to have a degree, but few of those > positions actually require > the knowledge of the exact subjects people learn > in college. Would-be > flamers, hear me out. > > Consider the average bachelor's degree. If it is in > the humanities, you > spent quite a bit of time studying various authors > or artists, writing > papers on literary and artistic criticism (the who, > the what and the why of > the artist/author and his work) and being exposed > to various cultural > schools of thought. If it was in a social science, > then you most likely > studied a lot of socio/political/economic theory and > their application. If > you studied a science or engineering, then > high-level calculus was the > order of the day, in terms of expressing events in > mathematical terms. If > it was computer science, then a whole lot of > abstract programming theory. > > But regardless of what you studied, I think it is > universally true that > college graduates with whatever degree then plunge > into their careers and > rarely use the actual skills that they picked up in > college. Barring those > who have entered academia, how many times does the > typical grad with an > English degree get the opportunity to do an literary > analysis of Elizabeth > vs. Victorian poetry? How many real-world graduates > of economics, in their > day-to-day working life, actually have to whip out > supply/demand curves and > calculate marginal utility? Even the engineering > graduates (historically > one of the most applied of all the college > subjects), how many times do they > really have to derive out a 40-line thermodynamics > multivariable calculus > formula using just pencil and paper, and within 15 > minutes? > > Ah but, college administrators and the pundits of > education will stress, > what make the college experience so valuable is not > the subject matter per > se, but rather the base level disciplining and > training of the mind that is > the ultimate goal. It is not the memorization of > the political theories of > Plato that is important, rather it is the improved > cultural exposure, the > openness to different philosophies, and the ability > to conceive of and > defend a particular thought. It is not the ability > to quickly derive and > calculate the eigenvectors of a linear algebra > matrix that is important, > rather it is the improved grasp and understanding of > abstract concepts that > is the real prize.In short, you college grads > are hired not for the > precise subject matter that they studied, but > because they have demonstrated > enhanced thought processes and the ability to > quickly learn whatever skills > they need for their career. > > Having said that, I believe that the CCIE is > evolving into a similar role. > CCIE's are prized by employers not because they can > type a config for and > troubleshoot a OSPF NBMA frame-relay network without > using subinterfaces and > while still electing a DR/BDR in less than an hour, > typing at 150 > words-per-minute. Rather they are prized because in > the course of their > study, they have substantially improved their > knowledge of networking > fundamentals and have developed a systematic and > logical method of fixing > problems. > > Now, some readers out there might take exception to > the above paragraph and > point out that there are some CCIE's who have
RE: bri flapping with demand cirquit/igrp redistribution
Thanks to you all, --- "Connary, Julie Ann" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > an easier way to find the problem is to debug ospf > flooding and/or lsa > generation. Then you do not > have to go through the pain of waiting for the link > to be quiet for each > interface as you bring it up. > > Julie Ann > > At 02:31 PM 3/27/2001 -0600, Alan Basinger wrote: > >Your correct Z filter the bri subnet from > redistribution into IGRP and your > >LSA's should not continue to bring the link up. > > > >Alan > > > >-Original Message- > >From: Mask Of Zorro [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > >Sent: Tuesday, March 27, 2001 2:32 PM > >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; > [EMAIL PROTECTED]; > >[EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; > [EMAIL PROTECTED]; > >[EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; > [EMAIL PROTECTED]; > >[EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; > [EMAIL PROTECTED]; > >[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >Subject: Re: bri flapping with demand cirquit/igrp > redistribution > > > > > >Redistribution brings it up. > > > >What happens is, the link is brought up and OSPF > forms an adjacency. Then, > >since it is a demand circuit, periodic LSA's are > squelched and OSPF routes > >associated with those LSA's do not age out of the > routing table. Then, the > >layer 2 portion of the link drops, since there is > no interesting traffic. > > > >Once the link drops, whatever protocol you are > redistributing into OSPF sees > >it's link drop, and changes its tables in > accordance with the topology > >change. This change gets redistributed into OSPF, > and OSPF floods LSA's out > >announcing the change. These LSA's bring up the > link while OSPF converges. > >Then, after a while, things are stable again, and > the link drops - and guess > >what? That's right! The whole thing starts > again... > > > >There are ways to stop it. > > > >Z > > >From: "George Zhang" > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > >Reply-To: "George Zhang" > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > >To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, > > ><[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, > > ><[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, > > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, > > ><[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > >Subject: Re: bri flapping with demand > cirquit/igrp redistribution > > >Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 13:50:52 -0600 > > > > > >I also had the same problem a few days ago. Here > is how I fixed it: > > > > > >1. Isolate the problem by shutting down all > other interfaces besides the > > >interfaces > > > between the two related routers; > > > > > >2. Disable all other routing protocols (non-OSPF > ones); > > > > > >3. Turn off IGRP redistribution to OSPF; > > > > > >3. Now, verify the ISDN demand circuit. It > should be quiet now. > > > > > >4. Now, start unshut the interfaces you have shut > down one by one and > > >verify > > > that the ISDN demand circuit. It should > might come up briefly but it > > >should go > > > down and keep quiet after some interfaces > are unshut. If the ISDN > > >line > > >keep dialing, you should know which interface > is causing the problem. > > > > > >5. If the ISDN line is still quiet after you > unshut all interfaces, turn on > > >your other router > > > protocols such as IGRN, RIP, etc one by one. > Again, verify the IDN > > >line after > > > each change as above. > > > > > >5. If the ISDN line is still quiet after you > enable all other routing > > >protocols, turn on your > > >redistribution one by one. Again verify ISDN > line along the way. > > > > > >If you follow these steps, you should be able to > pin down what is causing > > >your ISDN > > >line to stay up. > > > > > >Hope it helps. > > > > > >George Zhang > > > > > > > > > >>> "Donald B Johnson Jr" > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 03/27/01 03:33PM >>> > > >It may keep the connection open though even after > there is no intresting > > >traffic. > > >Don > > >- Original Message - > > >From: Alan Basinger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> &g
RE: bri flapping with demand cirquit/igrp redistribution
Can somebody tell me how come CDP may bring the line up? As you know, it works only in layer 2 as said before. Your dialer-list works at layer 3 & 4 only. Did I miss something? :-( --- Ya Wen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Try remove the "log" from the access-list 15 > associated with the route-map > stuff. Also, you do not need the summary-address > under OSPF. > > -Ya > > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of > Patrick Murphy > Sent: Friday, March 23, 2001 5:04 PM > To: Leah Lynch; 'Jay Chandradas'; 'Chris Larson'; > 'Bob Boone'; > [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: bri flapping with demand cirquit/igrp > redistribution > > > Also check the BRI interface and see if you see > IPCDP, it should disapper > when you no cdp en! > > Patrick > > - Original Message - > From: "Leah Lynch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "'Jay Chandradas'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "'Chris > Larson'" > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "'Bob Boone'" > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Friday, March 23, 2001 7:45 PM > Subject: RE: bri flapping with demand cirquit/igrp > redistribution > > > > I think you normally disable CDP in dialup lines > for efficiency. > > > > Leah > > > > -Original Message- > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of > > Jay Chandradas > > Sent: Friday, March 23, 2001 2:57 PM > > To: Chris Larson; Bob Boone; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Subject: Re: bri flapping with demand cirquit/igrp > redistribution > > > > > > > > > > I am not sure CDP will keep the line up ? And ur > interesting traffic is > > permit ip any any . I dont think CDP will keep the > line up. When u do a > > debug ip pack.. u can nvr see CDP.. CDP is layer > 2. > > > > my 0.02 > > > > - Original Message - > > From: "Chris Larson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: "Bob Boone" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Jay > Chandradas" > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Sent: Friday, March 23, 2001 2:40 PM > > Subject: RE: bri flapping with demand cirquit/igrp > redistribution > > > > > > > Will CDP keep the line up? Turn off CDP. > > > > > > -Original Message- > > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of > > > Bob Boone > > > Sent: Friday, March 16, 2001 5:30 PM > > > To: Jay Chandradas; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > Subject: Re: bri flapping with demand > cirquit/igrp redistribution > > > > > > > > > Yes i do have passive BRI on IGRP, and also, the > way it is done now, it > > > restricts ALL networks, if you look at the > access-list 15 it has one > > > statement and then explisit deny all. > > > still not working. > > > > > > - Original Message - > > > From: "Jay Chandradas" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > To: "Netguy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; > > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > Sent: Friday, March 16, 2001 12:22 PM > > > Subject: Re: bri flapping with demand > cirquit/igrp redistribution > > > > > > > > > > 1. DO u have a passive interface on bri0 under > router IGRP > > > > > > > > 2. I wud do this way !! when u r redisributing > into OSPG .. allow only > > the > > > > IGRP networks ( including the network conneted > with is running IGRP ) > > > > > > > > Jay > > > > > > > > when u r redistributing into > > > > - Original Message - > > > > From: "Netguy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > Sent: Friday, March 16, 2001 12:01 PM > > > > Subject: bri flapping with demand cirquit/igrp > redistribution > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hello all you happy people. > > > > > > Router A has ospf/igrp mutual > redistribution and bri > > > > > > int dialing elsewhere with demand circuit. > it keeps > > > > > > flapping. > > > > > > i followed someone's advice and created a > route/map > > > > > > filter to filter out bri network from igrp > > > > > > redistributing back into ospf. > > > > > > what the hell am i doing wrong? i know its > a big > > > > > > thing > > > > > > that lots of people had problems with. > > > > > > here's the key configs: > > > > > > interface BRI0/0 > > > > > > ip address 173.5.8.1 255.255.255.252 > > > > > > encapsulation ppp > > > > > > ip ospf demand-circuit > > > > > > dialer idle-timeout 15 > > > > > > dialer map ip 173.5.8.2 name R5 broadcast > 8667007 > > > > > > dialer map ip 173.5.8.2 name R5 broadcast > 8667008 > > > > > > dialer load-threshold 128 outbound > > > > > > dialer-group 1 > > > > > > isdn switch-type basic-dms100 > > > > > > isdn spid1 9258667005 > > > > > > isdn spid2 9258667006 > > > > > > ppp authentication chap > > > > > > ppp chap hostname CCIE > > > > > > ppp multilink > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > router ospf 1 > > > > > > log-adjacency-changes > > > > > > area 0 authentication message-digest > > > > > > area 0 range 173.5.1.0 255.255.255.0 > > > > > > summary-address 173.5.10.0 255.255.
ccie student in Tokyo area??
Hi, I am looking for someone to work with me on the ccie lab or a place where I can practice it in Tokyo area. I already passed the ccie written exam. Can someone help me? Thank you, cvp. ccnp/ccda = CVP Network Coordinator CCNP/CCDA __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ **NOTE: New CCNA/CCDA List has been formed. For more information go to http://www.groupstudy.com/list/Associates.html _ UPDATED Posting Guidelines: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/guide.html FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
CCIE Study group in Tokyo?
Hi, Do you know whether there is a CCIE study group in Tokyo? Thankx, cvp. ccnp/ccda/ccie written (for the moment :) __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ **NOTE: New CCNA/CCDA List has been formed. For more information go to http://www.groupstudy.com/list/Associates.html _ UPDATED Posting Guidelines: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/guide.html FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
CCIE written exam passed!
Dear All, I would like to thank everybody on this mailing list and especially those I talked to directly. I am now working toward the lab and will try it within this year. I worked essentially closed to the Cisco web site, ietf.org (RFC)and other web sites whose the links were given by y'all. I think pursuing the CCNP and CCDP is a good way to be well prepared. Nevertheless not accurate enough. I failed several weeks ago for 1% the CID3.0 as I worked only toward the CCIE written exam. Stupid questions not up-to-date at all (about RFC obsolete etc.)! Anyway, I'm in a good mood today and will work seriously to finish it within the next 2 weeks. Good luck to everybody who pursuing it. Let's talk each other on the CCIE Lab Mailing List soon! cvp ccnp/ccda/ccie written exam <-will feel better when I input my number ;-)Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!
HDLC, SDLC...
Dear all, I am a little bit confused about the difference of framing between hdlc, sdlc, lapb, lapd, llc2. Can someone help me? Thank you, cvp. __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ ___ UPDATED Posting Guidelines: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/guide.html FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: bgp path selection
Of course not! p.s: weight then local preference etc. --- Kikpasa <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I hope not, because I can't remember my self > > kerry > > "Yee, Jason" wrote: > > > > hi, > > > > Anyone who has taken the Routing 2.0 exam can tell > me do we need to remember > > the bgp path selection order , like using local > preference first, follow by > > weight etc. > > > > I find it hard to remember > > > > thanks > > > > Jason > > > > ___ > > UPDATED Posting Guidelines: > http://www.groupstudy.com/list/guide.html > > FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: > http://www.groupstudy.com > > Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > ___ > UPDATED Posting Guidelines: > http://www.groupstudy.com/list/guide.html > FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: > http://www.groupstudy.com > Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ ___ UPDATED Posting Guidelines: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/guide.html FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
