RE: ATM Dead?
Hi Group, I think labelling the ATM technology as dead would be an "overkill". ATM has its advantages as well as disadvantages. Mere opinions don't change facts. Following are some facts about ATM: ATM has evolved as a stable connection oriented transport that currently operates, ATM switch to ATM switch at up to OC-48 line rates. It also lends itself ably to traffic engineering (prior to MPLS it was the only technology that offered traffic engineering features). It delivers many advanced features such as PVC creation from any ingress to any egress in a given ATM backbone, sophisticated ( but complicated ) signaling to simplify path creation and re-routing around failures, and QoS features for bandwidth reservation, constant bit rate, variable bit rate, and unspecified bit rate services, applied to the cell. However, with these advantages, ATM also has certain drawbacks. The first and foremost being that of "overhead". ATM consumes nearly 10% of available bandwidth with a 5 byte cell header for each 48 byte payload cell, plus an additional 5% is needed for the adaption layer for IP over ATM as per RFC 1483. For example, an ATM OC-48 link requires 494Mbit/sec for overhead. Compounding the bandwidth issues is ATM's limited scalability at higher link rates. ATM switches have only recently delivered OC-48 interface rates and it is questionable whether OC-192 is feasible considering the overhead associated with segmentation and reassembly, wasted bandwidth, and other inefficiencies of pushing 53bytes across 10Gbit/sec links. Today the fastest IP router ATM interface is OC-12, which creates a bottleneck with the advent of OC-192 capable transport systems. When ATM is used as the transport for delivering IP in the Internet core we face a different set of issues. ATM requires its own administrative domain distinct from IP at Layer 3. The ATM network elements must be interconnected in such a way to provide redundancy. The entire ATM topology is transparent to the IP Layer 3 topology. Therefore a second topology at Layer 3 must be overlaid atop the ATM fabric. This is achieved by establishing PVC's between layer 3 routers. This creates another set of problems: 1. Two separate modalities are required for element management adding complexity and cost to network management. 2. IP route exchange with an IGP requires direct peering/adjacency with all neighbors, therefore the number of PVC's required grow by a factor of n-to-the-power-2; where n is the number of internal IGP routers. For example, for 300 routers: 44,850 PVC's would be necessary to establish a complete mesh. If 4 more routers are added the PVC count jumps to 46,056 (an increase of 1206 PVC's). This represents a substantial network-provisioning problem. In the event of a router failure in this scenario, the surviving routers will issue IGP routing updates on the order of n-to-the-power-3 (300 routers would issue 27 Million updates). This effect can be reduced by configuring route-reflectors/confederations, however, it still adds to the complexity and becomes a provisioning nightmare. 3. ATM uses its own signaling protocol (PNNI) to establish PVC's. IP uses OSPF, IS-IS, and BGP as its signaling protocols. The two signaling layers operate independently and therefore complicate interworking between the layers. To gain advantage of ATM traffic engineering features IP signaling protocols must run within the ATM PVCs. The question boils down to Howard's C. Berkowitz's often-quoted saying, "What is the problem that you are trying to solve ? Knowing the advantages and disadvantages that ATM offers, educated choices regarding its usage can be made depending upon one's application. Aziz S. Islam marchFIRST Inc.; http://www.marchFIRST.com 55 York Street, Ste. 1500 Toronto/ON M5J 1R7/CANADA ph:(416)368- Ext. 211 fx:(416)366-6667 pg:(416)563-7355 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ UPDATED Posting Guidelines: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/guide.html FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: ATM Dead?
I can give some first hand knowledge being in the industry of ATM sales. We haven't sold ATM in Portland metro for quite some time. Not because it is dead or because it is not functional but simply because it's to difficult for the average broadband consumer to understand. On paper it's simple. It's the implementation, maintenance and tuning they find difficult to understand. To overcome this ignorance and lack of willing we sell a product called TLS (Transparent LAN Service.) This is essentially ATM handed off to a device which converts to 10/100 Ethernet. Even this is getting harder to sell as we move to an IP centric environment and customer's generally need simple Internet access or a clear channel pipe. You'll still find ATM in bigger shops who have had ATM for some time now and have found that it suites their needs or have simply invested so much capital in hardware that it wouldn't make sense for them to move away. With QoS being quickly developed for Internet based applications most customer's find that these new devices will suite their needs. This is just my opinion. ;) -Bart Kurek Sales Engineer Electric Lightwave Inc. (ELIX) http://www.eli.net mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2000 7:31 AM Subject: RE: ATM Dead? Hi Group, I think labelling the ATM technology as dead would be an "overkill". ATM has its advantages as well as disadvantages. Mere opinions don't change facts. Following are some facts about ATM: ATM has evolved as a stable connection oriented transport that currently operates, ATM switch to ATM switch at up to OC-48 line rates. It also lends itself ably to traffic engineering (prior to MPLS it was the only technology that offered traffic engineering features). It delivers many advanced features such as PVC creation from any ingress to any egress in a given ATM backbone, sophisticated ( but complicated ) signaling to simplify path creation and re-routing around failures, and QoS features for bandwidth reservation, constant bit rate, variable bit rate, and unspecified bit rate services, applied to the cell. However, with these advantages, ATM also has certain drawbacks. The first and foremost being that of "overhead". ATM consumes nearly 10% of available bandwidth with a 5 byte cell header for each 48 byte payload cell, plus an additional 5% is needed for the adaption layer for IP over ATM as per RFC 1483. For example, an ATM OC-48 link requires 494Mbit/sec for overhead. Compounding the bandwidth issues is ATM's limited scalability at higher link rates. ATM switches have only recently delivered OC-48 interface rates and it is questionable whether OC-192 is feasible considering the overhead associated with segmentation and reassembly, wasted bandwidth, and other inefficiencies of pushing 53bytes across 10Gbit/sec links. Today the fastest IP router ATM interface is OC-12, which creates a bottleneck with the advent of OC-192 capable transport systems. When ATM is used as the transport for delivering IP in the Internet core we face a different set of issues. ATM requires its own administrative domain distinct from IP at Layer 3. The ATM network elements must be interconnected in such a way to provide redundancy. The entire ATM topology is transparent to the IP Layer 3 topology. Therefore a second topology at Layer 3 must be overlaid atop the ATM fabric. This is achieved by establishing PVC's between layer 3 routers. This creates another set of problems: 1. Two separate modalities are required for element management adding complexity and cost to network management. 2. IP route exchange with an IGP requires direct peering/adjacency with all neighbors, therefore the number of PVC's required grow by a factor of n-to-the-power-2; where n is the number of internal IGP routers. For example, for 300 routers: 44,850 PVC's would be necessary to establish a complete mesh. If 4 more routers are added the PVC count jumps to 46,056 (an increase of 1206 PVC's). This represents a substantial network-provisioning problem. In the event of a router failure in this scenario, the surviving routers will issue IGP routing updates on the order of n-to-the-power-3 (300 routers would issue 27 Million updates). This effect can be reduced by configuring route-reflectors/confederations, however, it still adds to the complexity and becomes a provisioning nightmare. 3. ATM uses its own signaling protocol (PNNI) to establish PVC's. IP uses OSPF, IS-IS, and BGP as its signaling protocols. The two signaling layers operate independently and therefore complicate interworking between the layers. To gain advantage of ATM traffic engineering features IP signaling protocols must run within the ATM PVCs. The question boils down to Howard's C. Berkowitz's often-quoted saying, "What is the problem that you are trying to solve ? Knowing the adva
Re: ATM Dead?
Studying any technology for this amount of time is worthwhile although I'm suprised that ATM alone would have 3-years material in it to study ? Is the course full or part time ? PS: I realise ATM will be around for a long time, but I just cannot help disliking it .. Its just a pet hate of mine. Once I understand it more it may grow on me. Regards, Phil. --- David Ristau [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: remember DSL runs over a ATM/Frame Relay variant. DSL is HOT HOT HOT. Billy Monroe wrote: My friend is taking a 3 year Master program in ATM. Do you think that is worthwhile ? "Kris" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... ATM is hardly a dead technology at this stage in the game. Though we're not really seeing it to the desktop and LANE implementations aren't the hottest thing, it's an incredible technology in the backbone. Providers love it because it allows us to run anything and everything over it (from voice to IP, and everything in between) and maintain quality of service. One backbone carrying everything. So ignore ATM at your own risk, because it's going to be with us for quite some time. Kris, From: John Neiberger [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: ATM Dead? Was: 350-001 examin very tough But is ATM really dead? Sure, not too many people will be introducing new implementations of LANE, but it seems to me that ATM over the WAN is still fairly common. We will be using some ATM in the near future, as a matter of fact. We are implementing alternate backup routes to all of our main branches using DSL. Our provider is muxing all DSL lines to an ATM connection back to our HQ. Pretty cool, actually. John Chuck, I think I'll be joining you about the same time (350-001) . But boy do I hate ATM Token Ring. So boring learning this stuff, when in the back of my mind I consider it dead technology. The only way I can keep my sanity is by planning to rip as much of this crap out as I can and replace it with Giga technology etc before I escape to do something more interesting. Regards, and good luck for the written. Keep watching the skies .. Phil. ___ UPDATED Posting Guidelines: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/guide.html FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ UPDATED Posting Guidelines: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/guide.html FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ UPDATED Posting Guidelines: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/guide.html FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie ___ UPDATED Posting Guidelines: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/guide.html FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: ATM Dead?
'e's not dead, 'e's only resting... I do see an industry trend away from ATM, but it certainly will be around for quite a while, especially in carrier applications. Not quite a Norwegian Blue Parrot. Certainly, I wouldn't design a router that could not handle it. The immediate large IP provider trend, however, is to MPLS and/or POS. In the longer term, there is significant interest in IP over optical networks. While POS is better than ATM in avoiding the cell tax, PPP could be more efficient. The A and C fields of the PPP header, for example, are there mostly for historical reasons. Seen on a T-shirt at the IETF: ATM: A Technological Miracle Solving today's problems...tomorrow Enough digs at ATM. It's certainly a viable solution for some environments, especially for high-bandwidth WAN connectivity. Using ATM rather than multiple DS3/DS1 introduced both better reliability and lower cost in the Federal Y2K network. There are a substantial number of video editing, medical imaging,etc., devices that have native ATM interfaces. "What Problem are you trying to solve?" ***send Cisco questions to the list, so all can benefit -- not directly to me*** Howard C. Berkowitz [EMAIL PROTECTED] Technical Director, CertificationZone.com Senior Product Manager, Carrier Packet Solutions, NortelNetworks (for ID only) but Cisco stockholder! "retired" Certified Cisco Systems Instructor (CID) #93005 ___ UPDATED Posting Guidelines: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/guide.html FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: ATM Dead?
ATM is hardly a dead technology at this stage in the game. Though we're not really seeing it to the desktop and LANE implementations aren't the hottest thing, it's an incredible technology in the backbone. Providers love it because it allows us to run anything and everything over it (from voice to IP, and everything in between) and maintain quality of service. One backbone carrying everything. So ignore ATM at your own risk, because it's going to be with us for quite some time. Kris, From: John Neiberger [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: ATM Dead? Was: 350-001 examin very tough But is ATM really dead? Sure, not too many people will be introducing new implementations of LANE, but it seems to me that ATM over the WAN is still fairly common. We will be using some ATM in the near future, as a matter of fact. We are implementing alternate backup routes to all of our main branches using DSL. Our provider is muxing all DSL lines to an ATM connection back to our HQ. Pretty cool, actually. John Chuck, I think I'll be joining you about the same time (350-001) . But boy do I hate ATM Token Ring. So boring learning this stuff, when in the back of my mind I consider it dead technology. The only way I can keep my sanity is by planning to rip as much of this crap out as I can and replace it with Giga technology etc before I escape to do something more interesting. Regards, and good luck for the written. Keep watching the skies .. Phil. ___ UPDATED Posting Guidelines: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/guide.html FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: ATM Dead?
My friend is taking a 3 year Master program in ATM. Do you think that is worthwhile ? "Kris" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... ATM is hardly a dead technology at this stage in the game. Though we're not really seeing it to the desktop and LANE implementations aren't the hottest thing, it's an incredible technology in the backbone. Providers love it because it allows us to run anything and everything over it (from voice to IP, and everything in between) and maintain quality of service. One backbone carrying everything. So ignore ATM at your own risk, because it's going to be with us for quite some time. Kris, From: John Neiberger [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: ATM Dead? Was: 350-001 examin very tough But is ATM really dead? Sure, not too many people will be introducing new implementations of LANE, but it seems to me that ATM over the WAN is still fairly common. We will be using some ATM in the near future, as a matter of fact. We are implementing alternate backup routes to all of our main branches using DSL. Our provider is muxing all DSL lines to an ATM connection back to our HQ. Pretty cool, actually. John Chuck, I think I'll be joining you about the same time (350-001) . But boy do I hate ATM Token Ring. So boring learning this stuff, when in the back of my mind I consider it dead technology. The only way I can keep my sanity is by planning to rip as much of this crap out as I can and replace it with Giga technology etc before I escape to do something more interesting. Regards, and good luck for the written. Keep watching the skies .. Phil. ___ UPDATED Posting Guidelines: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/guide.html FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ UPDATED Posting Guidelines: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/guide.html FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: ATM Dead?
Tough question. Currently, ATM is the predominant control protocol in service provider networks, but that is starting to change. The complexity of managing IP-over-ATM overlay networks, as well as the loss of efficiency due to the ATM cell-tax (especially on high-speed links) is causing many service providers to begin to migrate ATM control planes to MPLS. Using MPLS, service providers can provision "ATM-like" services, but they can do it over a variety of layer 2 protocols such as Frame Relay, Ethernet, PPP, or ATM cells. If you look at Marconi (formerly FORE), arguably the leader in ATM products, they are already working on migrating their products to support MPLS. Another item worth noting, none of the major hardware vendors that I know of have plans to produce ATM-to-packet interfaces at speeds of OC-48 or above, effectively killing ATM in the network core. From what I've read, the cost and complexity of designing the SAR process outweighs any benefit. I believe that ATM will be around for a long while (heck, X.25 is still around). I believe that most service providers will begin to migrate data traffic to MPLS control planes by converting their ATM switches to become label switch routers. ATM will still be used to provide CBR services for things like voice and video, with ATM switches handling both ATM and MPLS in "ships in the night" mode. Over time, and as MPLS-QoS services mature, the ATM control plane will be fully replaced by MPLS. Once that happens, service providers can begin to phase out ATM cells at Layer 2, replacing them with variable length packets over PPP or Ethernet. Where ATM continues to thrive is in relatively low speed services such as DSL. Most DSL connections still use ATM framing, and probably will for a good long while. So, is a 3 year Masters program in ATM worthwhile? Sure, your friend is planning on going to work within service provider networks, and he gets some exposure to MPLS. Just my .02. Irwin -Original Message- From: Billy Monroe [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, August 28, 2000 1:51 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: ATM Dead? My friend is taking a 3 year Master program in ATM. Do you think that is worthwhile ? "Kris" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... ATM is hardly a dead technology at this stage in the game. Though we're not really seeing it to the desktop and LANE implementations aren't the hottest thing, it's an incredible technology in the backbone. Providers love it because it allows us to run anything and everything over it (from voice to IP, and everything in between) and maintain quality of service. One backbone carrying everything. So ignore ATM at your own risk, because it's going to be with us for quite some time. Kris, From: John Neiberger [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: ATM Dead? Was: 350-001 examin very tough But is ATM really dead? Sure, not too many people will be introducing new implementations of LANE, but it seems to me that ATM over the WAN is still fairly common. We will be using some ATM in the near future, as a matter of fact. We are implementing alternate backup routes to all of our main branches using DSL. Our provider is muxing all DSL lines to an ATM connection back to our HQ. Pretty cool, actually. John Chuck, I think I'll be joining you about the same time (350-001) . But boy do I hate ATM Token Ring. So boring learning this stuff, when in the back of my mind I consider it dead technology. The only way I can keep my sanity is by planning to rip as much of this crap out as I can and replace it with Giga technology etc before I escape to do something more interesting. Regards, and good luck for the written. Keep watching the skies .. Phil. ___ UPDATED Posting Guidelines: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/guide.html FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ UPDATED Posting Guidelines: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/guide.html FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ UPDATED Posting Guidelines: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/guide.html FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: ATM Dead? Was: 350-001 examin very tough
I recently took the CATM class and we had some discussion over whether ATM was dead or not The consensus was this: ATM has been passed out by a combination of Fast Ethernet, Gig Ethernet and soon 10-Gig Ethernet - some of the newer features in IOS add the QOS factor. However, someone forgot to tell the Telco's / Service Providers. ATM is a big big big part of their networks and will continue to be for a long time into the future. Also, a couple of Cisco's high end routers use an ATM backbone - so an understanding of ATM is necessary. Also, understanding how ATM works helps you understand how carriers provision Frame Relay - so again ATM knowledge is good. Also, since the earlier post mentioned Token Ring, let me take a stab at that too. I hate Token Ring. Not dislike - but HATE. I've always hated it - with a passion ! But as long as people have mainframes and SNA traffic and other legacy IBM devices then Token Ring will play an important part in enterprise networks. Therefore a thorugh knowledge of Token Ring will be required into the future. Just my 2 cents. Feargal -Original Message- From: Dale Holmes [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, August 28, 2000 10:07 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: ATM Dead? Was: 350-001 examin very tough It's not dead yet, but it is definitely coughing up blood... Who's killing it? Ethernet. That's right, Ethernet... go figure. Dale [=`) From: John Neiberger [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: John Neiberger [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: ATM Dead? Was: 350-001 examin very tough Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 09:02:27 -0700 (PDT) But is ATM really dead? Sure, not too many people will be introducing new implementations of LANE, but it seems to me that ATM over the WAN is still fairly common. We will be using some ATM in the near future, as a matter of fact. We are implementing alternate backup routes to all of our main branches using DSL. Our provider is muxing all DSL lines to an ATM connection back to our HQ. Pretty cool, actually. John Chuck, I think I'll be joining you about the same time (350-001) . But boy do I hate ATM Token Ring. So boring learning this stuff, when in the back of my mind I consider it dead technology. The only way I can keep my sanity is by planning to rip as much of this crap out as I can and replace it with Giga technology etc before I escape to do something more interesting. Regards, and good luck for the written. Keep watching the skies .. Phil. --- Chuck Larrieu [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Stefan, sorry to hear the bad news. What were your breakdowns? If you are fortunate enough to work for a Cisco channel partner, Cisco offers a lot of free training. Call your local channel manager for information. Hell, if you are a good Cisco customer you can probably get in. Threaten to buy Nortel stuff! ;- Global Knowledge has a two day OSPF class and a three day BGP class they offer. I will be taking both in about three weeks. I'll post a report when I complete each. I'm doing self study on ATM, having been told by a couple of folks, and having determined from the blue print that for written it is more terminology than anything else. Embarrassed as I am to say it, my primary source has been ATM for Dummies ( that's enough, you guys :- ) which all in all is not really that bad, and whatever I can glean from CCO. Oh, the QoS book by Ferguson and Huston has a very good ATM introduction. Chuck Will make my first attempt late October -Original Message- From:[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of stefan cufre Sent:Sunday, August 27, 2000 7:10 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: 350-001 examin very tough Hi Guys, i took the 350-001 examin today and failed .. This examin was very tough and i have never though those questions would turn up in the examin. i think i studied too much and being confused by different people saying different thing. i decided to go for training course to get proper training. Any advise good training partner. Thks/Brgds Stefan __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ ___ UPDATED Posting Guidelines: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/guide.html FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ UPDATED Posting Guidelines: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/guide.html FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http
Re: ATM Dead?
remember DSL runs over a ATM/Frame Relay variant. DSL is HOT HOT HOT. Billy Monroe wrote: My friend is taking a 3 year Master program in ATM. Do you think that is worthwhile ? "Kris" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... ATM is hardly a dead technology at this stage in the game. Though we're not really seeing it to the desktop and LANE implementations aren't the hottest thing, it's an incredible technology in the backbone. Providers love it because it allows us to run anything and everything over it (from voice to IP, and everything in between) and maintain quality of service. One backbone carrying everything. So ignore ATM at your own risk, because it's going to be with us for quite some time. Kris, From: John Neiberger [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: ATM Dead? Was: 350-001 examin very tough But is ATM really dead? Sure, not too many people will be introducing new implementations of LANE, but it seems to me that ATM over the WAN is still fairly common. We will be using some ATM in the near future, as a matter of fact. We are implementing alternate backup routes to all of our main branches using DSL. Our provider is muxing all DSL lines to an ATM connection back to our HQ. Pretty cool, actually. John Chuck, I think I'll be joining you about the same time (350-001) . But boy do I hate ATM Token Ring. So boring learning this stuff, when in the back of my mind I consider it dead technology. The only way I can keep my sanity is by planning to rip as much of this crap out as I can and replace it with Giga technology etc before I escape to do something more interesting. Regards, and good luck for the written. Keep watching the skies .. Phil. ___ UPDATED Posting Guidelines: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/guide.html FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ UPDATED Posting Guidelines: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/guide.html FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ UPDATED Posting Guidelines: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/guide.html FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
