Re: ANN: State of Clojure 2014 Survey - please contribute!!
I'd just like to say that I'm very impressed that this conversation is happening. It shows a great level of awareness within the community and makes me really optimistic about clojure as a inclusive language for the future. On Wednesday, October 15, 2014 10:59:08 PM UTC-4, Mars0i wrote: After reading Sean's thoughtful off-list remarks, I think it's worth commenting on my previous remarks. I don't think it matters whether I understand people's reasons. People may have their own personal reasons for not wanting to answer demographic questions, and I accept that, don't object to it, and am open to supporting it. On Wednesday, October 15, 2014 7:22:56 PM UTC-5, Mars0i wrote: I don't really get it. I don't see a legitimate reason why anyone would refuse to participate in the survey because it included demographic questions. The survey is anonymous. The combination of questions is not such that it would be at all plausible that anyone could be identified by their responses. At worst, answering a few additional questions--or simply skipping those questions--would be a very minor annoyance. Is it that some people object to the idea that there are disparities due to systemic factors in our society? If someone wants to disagree about that, OK, but I still don't see how boycotting a survey because it offers respondents the opportunity to provide demographic information is reasonable. On Wednesday, October 15, 2014 2:06:29 PM UTC-5, Sean Corfield wrote: On Oct 15, 2014, at 11:29 AM, Ashton Kemerling ashtonk...@gmail.com wrote: I would rather not say is a common and valid response in these scenarios. Yes, although that doesn't address that there are people who will not complete a survey that even asks such questions (on a philosophical objection to collecting such demographic information). As I said, it's a sensitive issue. As Bridget noted, they'll consider the approach for 2015. Sean Corfield -- (904) 302-SEAN An Architect's View -- http://corfield.org/ Perfection is the enemy of the good. -- Gustave Flaubert, French realist novelist (1821-1880) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: ANN: State of Clojure 2014 Survey - please contribute!!
Jony, It is being introduced into what was the intro to OO course. cheers, Bruce On Fri, Oct 10, 2014 at 11:27 PM, Jony Hudson jonyepsi...@gmail.com wrote: If this is the unofficial survey post of academics using Clojure then I'd better add myself to the list :-) @Bruce do you know what course they're going to be teaching Clojure on at Birkbeck? Jony On Friday, 10 October 2014 08:08:28 UTC+1, Bruce Durling wrote: I also know that Birkbeck College University of London is going to be teaching Clojure this year. On Oct 10, 2014 12:01 AM, Lee Spector lspe...@hampshire.edu wrote: FWIW I'm another person using Clojure mostly for academic research. And for computer science education, e.g. I'm currently teaching a Clojure-based AI course. I'd be curious to know how many others of us are out there. And BTW I think that attention to users in these categories could help to grow the community. -Lee On Oct 9, 2014, at 12:32 AM, Mars0i mars...@logical.net wrote: Thanks for the survey! I have a couple of suggestions/questions: For domains, there are no categories for scientific or other research applications. For example, I mainly use Clojure for writing agent-based models for academic research. Would a set of categories in this area be usedful? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clo...@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+u...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to clojure+u...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: ANN: State of Clojure 2014 Survey - please contribute!!
Dear Clojurians, Inclusion of such questions on the survey would be another opportunity for Clojure to be more than just not unwelcoming to atypical folks and allow us to purposefully invite more people to this relative paradise we inhabit. I would simply not fill the survey. Because what does my age or gender or race have to do with a programming language. There is nothing stopping the atypical folks from grabbing a REPL and typing away some code. On Wed, Oct 15, 2014 at 3:33 PM, Bruce Durling b...@otfrom.com wrote: Jony, It is being introduced into what was the intro to OO course. cheers, Bruce On Fri, Oct 10, 2014 at 11:27 PM, Jony Hudson jonyepsi...@gmail.com wrote: If this is the unofficial survey post of academics using Clojure then I'd better add myself to the list :-) @Bruce do you know what course they're going to be teaching Clojure on at Birkbeck? Jony On Friday, 10 October 2014 08:08:28 UTC+1, Bruce Durling wrote: I also know that Birkbeck College University of London is going to be teaching Clojure this year. On Oct 10, 2014 12:01 AM, Lee Spector lspe...@hampshire.edu wrote: FWIW I'm another person using Clojure mostly for academic research. And for computer science education, e.g. I'm currently teaching a Clojure-based AI course. I'd be curious to know how many others of us are out there. And BTW I think that attention to users in these categories could help to grow the community. -Lee On Oct 9, 2014, at 12:32 AM, Mars0i mars...@logical.net wrote: Thanks for the survey! I have a couple of suggestions/questions: For domains, there are no categories for scientific or other research applications. For example, I mainly use Clojure for writing agent-based models for academic research. Would a set of categories in this area be usedful? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clo...@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+u...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to clojure+u...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- Kind Regards, Atamert Ölçgen -+- --+ +++ www.muhuk.com -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: ANN: State of Clojure 2014 Survey - please contribute!!
Asking questions about race and/or gender can be a very sensitive issue and a lot of people would refuse to complete those sections, or may even refuse to complete the survey at all if such questions were included - for a variety of very valid reasons. Sean On Oct 14, 2014, at 9:23 PM, Zack Maril thewitzb...@gmail.com wrote: ClojureBridge and conj grants are excellent ways to encourage all types of folks to join Clojure and I'm stoked that these programs have emerged from the community. These are Good Things and should be continued and improved upon wherever possible. I'd personally like to know how much good these efforts do and tracking demographics of the Clojure community, whether it is through the State of Clojure survey or other means, would allow us to measure the distance between our ideals and reality. I'm proud of the attempts and efforts undertaken to increase diversity within the community and, beyond the specifics of this current conversation, I'm confident that Clojure will make strides towards a more diverse user base. For the issue at hand, I believe that by including demographics within the State of the Clojure survey the Clojure leadership would be making a strong statement indicating their desire for a more desire community. The survey measures that which has been deemed important to know and understand in terms of the stewardship and development of Clojure. Including demographic questions in the survey, along with the context of why they were included, would indicate that there is a strong desire to understand and improve the diversity of the community by those who lead the community. Inclusion of such questions on the survey would be another opportunity for Clojure to be more than just not unwelcoming to atypical folks and allow us to purposefully invite more people to this relative paradise we inhabit. For a relatively small effort* it would show atypical folks that we care to know that they exist in the context of Clojure usage and that we are interested in understanding and improving their situation. -Zack *If I've misgauged the difficultly of adding such questions to the survey, please say so. My impression is that this would be straightforward technologically and, by perhaps copying questions from similar surveys, straightforward in terms of survey design. I don't mean to ask you to drop everything and try to solve all the problems of sexism all at once but only to do something which seems, from an outside perspective, fairly economical with low costs and high benefits. signature.asc Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail
Re: ANN: State of Clojure 2014 Survey - please contribute!!
I would rather not say is a common and valid response in these scenarios. On Wed, Oct 15, 2014 at 12:19 PM, Sean Corfield s...@corfield.org wrote: Asking questions about race and/or gender can be a very sensitive issue and a lot of people would refuse to complete those sections, or may even refuse to complete the survey at all if such questions were included - for a variety of very valid reasons. Sean On Oct 14, 2014, at 9:23 PM, Zack Maril thewitzb...@gmail.com wrote: ClojureBridge and conj grants are excellent ways to encourage all types of folks to join Clojure and I'm stoked that these programs have emerged from the community. These are Good Things and should be continued and improved upon wherever possible. I'd personally like to know how much good these efforts do and tracking demographics of the Clojure community, whether it is through the State of Clojure survey or other means, would allow us to measure the distance between our ideals and reality. I'm proud of the attempts and efforts undertaken to increase diversity within the community and, beyond the specifics of this current conversation, I'm confident that Clojure will make strides towards a more diverse user base. For the issue at hand, I believe that by including demographics within the State of the Clojure survey the Clojure leadership would be making a strong statement indicating their desire for a more desire community. The survey measures that which has been deemed important to know and understand in terms of the stewardship and development of Clojure. Including demographic questions in the survey, along with the context of why they were included, would indicate that there is a strong desire to understand and improve the diversity of the community by those who lead the community. Inclusion of such questions on the survey would be another opportunity for Clojure to be more than just not unwelcoming to atypical folks and allow us to purposefully invite more people to this relative paradise we inhabit. For a relatively small effort* it would show atypical folks that we care to know that they exist in the context of Clojure usage and that we are interested in understanding and improving their situation. -Zack *If I've misgauged the difficultly of adding such questions to the survey, please say so. My impression is that this would be straightforward technologically and, by perhaps copying questions from similar surveys, straightforward in terms of survey design. I don't mean to ask you to drop everything and try to solve all the problems of sexism all at once but only to do something which seems, from an outside perspective, fairly economical with low costs and high benefits. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: ANN: State of Clojure 2014 Survey - please contribute!!
On Oct 15, 2014, at 11:29 AM, Ashton Kemerling ashtonkemerl...@gmail.com wrote: I would rather not say is a common and valid response in these scenarios. Yes, although that doesn't address that there are people who will not complete a survey that even asks such questions (on a philosophical objection to collecting such demographic information). As I said, it's a sensitive issue. As Bridget noted, they'll consider the approach for 2015. Sean Corfield -- (904) 302-SEAN An Architect's View -- http://corfield.org/ Perfection is the enemy of the good. -- Gustave Flaubert, French realist novelist (1821-1880) signature.asc Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail
Re: ANN: State of Clojure 2014 Survey - please contribute!!
I don't really get it. I don't see a legitimate reason why anyone would refuse to participate in the survey because it included demographic questions. The survey is anonymous. The combination of questions is not such that it would be at all plausible that anyone could be identified by their responses. At worst, answering a few additional questions--or simply skipping those questions--would be a very minor annoyance. Is it that some people object to the idea that there are disparities due to systemic factors in our society? If someone wants to disagree about that, OK, but I still don't see how boycotting a survey because it offers respondents the opportunity to provide demographic information is reasonable. On Wednesday, October 15, 2014 2:06:29 PM UTC-5, Sean Corfield wrote: On Oct 15, 2014, at 11:29 AM, Ashton Kemerling ashtonk...@gmail.com javascript: wrote: I would rather not say is a common and valid response in these scenarios. Yes, although that doesn't address that there are people who will not complete a survey that even asks such questions (on a philosophical objection to collecting such demographic information). As I said, it's a sensitive issue. As Bridget noted, they'll consider the approach for 2015. Sean Corfield -- (904) 302-SEAN An Architect's View -- http://corfield.org/ Perfection is the enemy of the good. -- Gustave Flaubert, French realist novelist (1821-1880) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: ANN: State of Clojure 2014 Survey - please contribute!!
I'm curious if there's any empirical evidence that significant numbers of people will do that. On Wed, Oct 15, 2014 at 6:23 PM, Mars0i marsh...@logical.net wrote: I don't really get it. I don't see a legitimate reason why anyone would refuse to participate in the survey because it included demographic questions. The survey is anonymous. The combination of questions is not such that it would be at all plausible that anyone could be identified by their responses. At worst, answering a few additional questions--or simply skipping those questions--would be a very minor annoyance. Is it that some people object to the idea that there are disparities due to systemic factors in our society? If someone wants to disagree about that, OK, but I still don't see how boycotting a survey because it offers respondents the opportunity to provide demographic information is reasonable. On Wednesday, October 15, 2014 2:06:29 PM UTC-5, Sean Corfield wrote: On Oct 15, 2014, at 11:29 AM, Ashton Kemerling ashtonk...@gmail.com javascript: wrote: I would rather not say is a common and valid response in these scenarios. Yes, although that doesn't address that there are people who will not complete a survey that even asks such questions (on a philosophical objection to collecting such demographic information). As I said, it's a sensitive issue. As Bridget noted, they'll consider the approach for 2015. Sean Corfield -- (904) 302-SEAN An Architect's View -- http://corfield.org/ Perfection is the enemy of the good. -- Gustave Flaubert, French realist novelist (1821-1880) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: ANN: State of Clojure 2014 Survey - please contribute!!
On Thu, Oct 16, 2014 at 8:30 AM, Ashton Kemerling ashtonkemerl...@gmail.com wrote: I'm curious if there's any empirical evidence that significant numbers of people will do that. Suppose I have provided reliable data that shows only 0.1% would refuse to answer such a Survey. A programming related survey with questions about demographics and a stated mission of being inclusive. What would be your moral reasoning for not being inclusive for this group of people? On Wed, Oct 15, 2014 at 6:23 PM, Mars0i marsh...@logical.net wrote: I don't really get it. I don't see a legitimate reason why anyone would refuse to participate in the survey because it included demographic questions. The survey is anonymous. The combination of questions is not such that it would be at all plausible that anyone could be identified by their responses. At worst, answering a few additional questions--or simply skipping those questions--would be a very minor annoyance. Is it that some people object to the idea that there are disparities due to systemic factors in our society? If someone wants to disagree about that, OK, but I still don't see how boycotting a survey because it offers respondents the opportunity to provide demographic information is reasonable. On Wednesday, October 15, 2014 2:06:29 PM UTC-5, Sean Corfield wrote: On Oct 15, 2014, at 11:29 AM, Ashton Kemerling ashtonk...@gmail.com wrote: I would rather not say is a common and valid response in these scenarios. Yes, although that doesn't address that there are people who will not complete a survey that even asks such questions (on a philosophical objection to collecting such demographic information). As I said, it's a sensitive issue. As Bridget noted, they'll consider the approach for 2015. Sean Corfield -- (904) 302-SEAN An Architect's View -- http://corfield.org/ Perfection is the enemy of the good. -- Gustave Flaubert, French realist novelist (1821-1880) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- Kind Regards, Atamert Ölçgen -+- --+ +++ www.muhuk.com -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: ANN: State of Clojure 2014 Survey - please contribute!!
I'm replying to Ashton and Mars0i off-list - and I'm happy to continue discussing the issue off-list, with anyone who wants to, but I think it's getting off-topic and close to inappropriate for this (technical) list. And, for what it's worth, Atamert, I'm on your side on this. Sean On Oct 15, 2014, at 6:44 PM, Atamert Ölçgen mu...@muhuk.com wrote: On Thu, Oct 16, 2014 at 8:30 AM, Ashton Kemerling ashtonkemerl...@gmail.com wrote: I'm curious if there's any empirical evidence that significant numbers of people will do that. Suppose I have provided reliable data that shows only 0.1% would refuse to answer such a Survey. A programming related survey with questions about demographics and a stated mission of being inclusive. What would be your moral reasoning for not being inclusive for this group of people? signature.asc Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail
Re: ANN: State of Clojure 2014 Survey - please contribute!!
I wasn't prepared to make moral statements about the survey, I'm just interested in what helps the community the most. If such questions would exclude people from the survey and/or the community then obviously that seems problematic, although I'm curious (but not doubtful) as to why that would happen. But I am not in a position of authority or experience in this area, if others more experienced than I believe that's a bad idea, I'm happy to defer to their wiser judgement. -- Ashton On Wed, Oct 15, 2014 at 7:49 PM, Sean Corfield s...@corfield.org wrote: I'm replying to Ashton and Mars0i off-list - and I'm happy to continue discussing the issue off-list, with anyone who wants to, but I think it's getting off-topic and close to inappropriate for this (technical) list. And, for what it's worth, Atamert, I'm on your side on this. Sean On Oct 15, 2014, at 6:44 PM, Atamert Ölçgen mu...@muhuk.com wrote: On Thu, Oct 16, 2014 at 8:30 AM, Ashton Kemerling ashtonkemerl...@gmail.com wrote: I'm curious if there's any empirical evidence that significant numbers of people will do that. Suppose I have provided reliable data that shows only 0.1% would refuse to answer such a Survey. A programming related survey with questions about demographics and a stated mission of being inclusive. What would be your moral reasoning for not being inclusive for this group of people? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: ANN: State of Clojure 2014 Survey - please contribute!!
I also just realized that I'm accidentally continuing this conversation despite Sean's best efforts. Please disregard my last message. On Wed, Oct 15, 2014 at 8:31 PM, Ashton Kemerling ashtonkemerl...@gmail.com wrote: I wasn't prepared to make moral statements about the survey, I'm just interested in what helps the community the most. If such questions would exclude people from the survey and/or the community then obviously that seems problematic, although I'm curious (but not doubtful) as to why that would happen. But I am not in a position of authority or experience in this area, if others more experienced than I believe that's a bad idea, I'm happy to defer to their wiser judgement. -- Ashton On Wed, Oct 15, 2014 at 7:49 PM, Sean Corfield s...@corfield.org wrote: I'm replying to Ashton and Mars0i off-list - and I'm happy to continue discussing the issue off-list, with anyone who wants to, but I think it's getting off-topic and close to inappropriate for this (technical) list. And, for what it's worth, Atamert, I'm on your side on this. Sean On Oct 15, 2014, at 6:44 PM, Atamert Ölçgen mu...@muhuk.com wrote: On Thu, Oct 16, 2014 at 8:30 AM, Ashton Kemerling ashtonkemerl...@gmail.com wrote: I'm curious if there's any empirical evidence that significant numbers of people will do that. Suppose I have provided reliable data that shows only 0.1% would refuse to answer such a Survey. A programming related survey with questions about demographics and a stated mission of being inclusive. What would be your moral reasoning for not being inclusive for this group of people? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: ANN: State of Clojure 2014 Survey - please contribute!!
After reading Sean's thoughtful off-list remarks, I think it's worth commenting on my previous remarks. I don't think it matters whether I understand people's reasons. People may have their own personal reasons for not wanting to answer demographic questions, and I accept that, don't object to it, and am open to supporting it. On Wednesday, October 15, 2014 7:22:56 PM UTC-5, Mars0i wrote: I don't really get it. I don't see a legitimate reason why anyone would refuse to participate in the survey because it included demographic questions. The survey is anonymous. The combination of questions is not such that it would be at all plausible that anyone could be identified by their responses. At worst, answering a few additional questions--or simply skipping those questions--would be a very minor annoyance. Is it that some people object to the idea that there are disparities due to systemic factors in our society? If someone wants to disagree about that, OK, but I still don't see how boycotting a survey because it offers respondents the opportunity to provide demographic information is reasonable. On Wednesday, October 15, 2014 2:06:29 PM UTC-5, Sean Corfield wrote: On Oct 15, 2014, at 11:29 AM, Ashton Kemerling ashtonk...@gmail.com wrote: I would rather not say is a common and valid response in these scenarios. Yes, although that doesn't address that there are people who will not complete a survey that even asks such questions (on a philosophical objection to collecting such demographic information). As I said, it's a sensitive issue. As Bridget noted, they'll consider the approach for 2015. Sean Corfield -- (904) 302-SEAN An Architect's View -- http://corfield.org/ Perfection is the enemy of the good. -- Gustave Flaubert, French realist novelist (1821-1880) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: ANN: State of Clojure 2014 Survey - please contribute!!
On 13 October 2014 22:05, Alex Miller a...@puredanger.com wrote: I do not need a poll to see that Clojure developers are predominantly white men, although that's also true of most programming languages and a consequence of larger pervasive issues in the industry. However, I think the Clojure community has been making progress on increasing diversity through efforts like ClojureBridge http://www.clojurebridge.org/ and the Clojure/conj opportunity grants http://clojure-conj.org/grants/. You might not need a poll to see that the community lacks diversity, but you might need a poll to see if the community is improving its diversity or not. Without measuring things we just don't know. I don't think it's for me to say whether this is best done in the clojure annual survey or not; but it seems we should measure this metric if we care about improving it. R. You might also find this project's data interesting: http://alyssafrazee.com/gender-and-github-code.html I would humbly submit that you should choose your language based on the best tool for the job and then work to hire, train, and improve diversity of the community regardless of what that tool may be. Alex On Monday, October 13, 2014 1:50:13 PM UTC-5, Zack Maril wrote: Next year, I would appreciate questions that measure the demographics of Clojure users be included. Out of the hundreds of people I've heard and seen talking about using Clojure, the vast majority of them have been white men. I've thought about it for a few days now and I can only think of three or four women who I know use Clojure and only a few non white men. I'd like to know if selecting Clojure as my default/main programming language means that I'll be forced to select from a fairly homogeneous group of potential coworkers and miss out on the benefits of a diverse working environment. -Zack On Friday, October 10, 2014 5:27:50 PM UTC-5, Jony Hudson wrote: If this is the unofficial survey post of academics using Clojure then I'd better add myself to the list :-) @Bruce do you know what course they're going to be teaching Clojure on at Birkbeck? Jony On Friday, 10 October 2014 08:08:28 UTC+1, Bruce Durling wrote: I also know that Birkbeck College University of London is going to be teaching Clojure this year. On Oct 10, 2014 12:01 AM, Lee Spector lspe...@hampshire.edu wrote: FWIW I'm another person using Clojure mostly for academic research. And for computer science education, e.g. I'm currently teaching a Clojure-based AI course. I'd be curious to know how many others of us are out there. And BTW I think that attention to users in these categories could help to grow the community. -Lee On Oct 9, 2014, at 12:32 AM, Mars0i mars...@logical.net wrote: Thanks for the survey! I have a couple of suggestions/questions: For domains, there are no categories for scientific or other research applications. For example, I mainly use Clojure for writing agent-based models for academic research. Would a set of categories in this area be usedful? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clo...@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+u...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to clojure+u...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To unsubscribe from
Re: ANN: State of Clojure 2014 Survey - please contribute!!
Great points from everyone about the lack of diversity in the Clojure world and the need to track improvement on that. I like the idea of finding a tangible thing that we can measure. Collecting demographic information in the annual survey is an interesting idea, and I think we should take it under consideration for next year. There are aspects of that I would want to think through first. A metric I would love to know and have no idea how to obtain is the number of women, number of people of color, number of Latinos, etc. employed writing Clojure. And while none of these numbers are currently good, I am fairly certain they are improving. By informal measures - such as the number of women attending Clojure conferences - things are significantly improving over the last year or two, although certainly not enough. There are definitely women and people of color using Clojure, and I would like for them to be visible. I just ran through who I follow on Twitter, and I counted 13 women (including me) who get paid to write Clojure. So we are out there. Bridget On Tuesday, October 14, 2014 8:50:37 AM UTC-4, Rick Moynihan wrote: On 13 October 2014 22:05, Alex Miller al...@puredanger.com javascript: wrote: I do not need a poll to see that Clojure developers are predominantly white men, although that's also true of most programming languages and a consequence of larger pervasive issues in the industry. However, I think the Clojure community has been making progress on increasing diversity through efforts like ClojureBridge http://www.clojurebridge.org/ and the Clojure/conj opportunity grants http://clojure-conj.org/grants/. You might not need a poll to see that the community lacks diversity, but you might need a poll to see if the community is improving its diversity or not. Without measuring things we just don't know. I don't think it's for me to say whether this is best done in the clojure annual survey or not; but it seems we should measure this metric if we care about improving it. R. You might also find this project's data interesting: http://alyssafrazee.com/gender-and-github-code.html I would humbly submit that you should choose your language based on the best tool for the job and then work to hire, train, and improve diversity of the community regardless of what that tool may be. Alex On Monday, October 13, 2014 1:50:13 PM UTC-5, Zack Maril wrote: Next year, I would appreciate questions that measure the demographics of Clojure users be included. Out of the hundreds of people I've heard and seen talking about using Clojure, the vast majority of them have been white men. I've thought about it for a few days now and I can only think of three or four women who I know use Clojure and only a few non white men. I'd like to know if selecting Clojure as my default/main programming language means that I'll be forced to select from a fairly homogeneous group of potential coworkers and miss out on the benefits of a diverse working environment. -Zack On Friday, October 10, 2014 5:27:50 PM UTC-5, Jony Hudson wrote: If this is the unofficial survey post of academics using Clojure then I'd better add myself to the list :-) @Bruce do you know what course they're going to be teaching Clojure on at Birkbeck? Jony On Friday, 10 October 2014 08:08:28 UTC+1, Bruce Durling wrote: I also know that Birkbeck College University of London is going to be teaching Clojure this year. On Oct 10, 2014 12:01 AM, Lee Spector lspe...@hampshire.edu wrote: FWIW I'm another person using Clojure mostly for academic research. And for computer science education, e.g. I'm currently teaching a Clojure-based AI course. I'd be curious to know how many others of us are out there. And BTW I think that attention to users in these categories could help to grow the community. -Lee On Oct 9, 2014, at 12:32 AM, Mars0i mars...@logical.net wrote: Thanks for the survey! I have a couple of suggestions/questions: For domains, there are no categories for scientific or other research applications. For example, I mainly use Clojure for writing agent-based models for academic research. Would a set of categories in this area be usedful? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clo...@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+u...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To
Re: ANN: State of Clojure 2014 Survey - please contribute!!
ClojureBridge and conj grants are excellent ways to encourage all types of folks to join Clojure and I'm stoked that these programs have emerged from the community. These are Good Things and should be continued and improved upon wherever possible. I'd personally like to know how much good these efforts do and tracking demographics of the Clojure community, whether it is through the State of Clojure survey or other means, would allow us to measure the distance between our ideals and reality. I'm proud of the attempts and efforts undertaken to increase diversity within the community and, beyond the specifics of this current conversation, I'm confident that Clojure will make strides towards a more diverse user base. For the issue at hand, I believe that by including demographics within the State of the Clojure survey the Clojure leadership would be making a strong statement indicating their desire for a more desire community. The survey measures that which has been deemed important to know and understand in terms of the stewardship and development of Clojure. Including demographic questions in the survey, along with the context of why they were included, would indicate that there is a strong desire to understand and improve the diversity of the community by those who lead the community. Inclusion of such questions on the survey would be another opportunity for Clojure to be more than just not unwelcoming to atypical folks and allow us to purposefully invite more people to this relative paradise we inhabit. For a relatively small effort* it would show atypical folks that we care to know that they exist in the context of Clojure usage and that we are interested in understanding and improving their situation. -Zack *If I've misgauged the difficultly of adding such questions to the survey, please say so. My impression is that this would be straightforward technologically and, by perhaps copying questions from similar surveys, straightforward in terms of survey design. I don't mean to ask you to drop everything and try to solve all the problems of sexism all at once but only to do something which seems, from an outside perspective, fairly economical with low costs and high benefits. On Tuesday, October 14, 2014 10:15:27 AM UTC-5, Bridget wrote: Great points from everyone about the lack of diversity in the Clojure world and the need to track improvement on that. I like the idea of finding a tangible thing that we can measure. Collecting demographic information in the annual survey is an interesting idea, and I think we should take it under consideration for next year. There are aspects of that I would want to think through first. A metric I would love to know and have no idea how to obtain is the number of women, number of people of color, number of Latinos, etc. employed writing Clojure. And while none of these numbers are currently good, I am fairly certain they are improving. By informal measures - such as the number of women attending Clojure conferences - things are significantly improving over the last year or two, although certainly not enough. There are definitely women and people of color using Clojure, and I would like for them to be visible. I just ran through who I follow on Twitter, and I counted 13 women (including me) who get paid to write Clojure. So we are out there. Bridget On Tuesday, October 14, 2014 8:50:37 AM UTC-4, Rick Moynihan wrote: On 13 October 2014 22:05, Alex Miller al...@puredanger.com wrote: I do not need a poll to see that Clojure developers are predominantly white men, although that's also true of most programming languages and a consequence of larger pervasive issues in the industry. However, I think the Clojure community has been making progress on increasing diversity through efforts like ClojureBridge http://www.clojurebridge.org/ and the Clojure/conj opportunity grants http://clojure-conj.org/grants/. You might not need a poll to see that the community lacks diversity, but you might need a poll to see if the community is improving its diversity or not. Without measuring things we just don't know. I don't think it's for me to say whether this is best done in the clojure annual survey or not; but it seems we should measure this metric if we care about improving it. R. You might also find this project's data interesting: http://alyssafrazee.com/gender-and-github-code.html I would humbly submit that you should choose your language based on the best tool for the job and then work to hire, train, and improve diversity of the community regardless of what that tool may be. Alex On Monday, October 13, 2014 1:50:13 PM UTC-5, Zack Maril wrote: Next year, I would appreciate questions that measure the demographics of Clojure users be included. Out of the hundreds of people I've heard and seen talking about using
Re: ANN: State of Clojure 2014 Survey - please contribute!!
Next year, I would appreciate questions that measure the demographics of Clojure users be included. Out of the hundreds of people I've heard and seen talking about using Clojure, the vast majority of them have been white men. I've thought about it for a few days now and I can only think of three or four women who I know use Clojure and only a few non white men. I'd like to know if selecting Clojure as my default/main programming language means that I'll be forced to select from a fairly homogeneous group of potential coworkers and miss out on the benefits of a diverse working environment. -Zack On Friday, October 10, 2014 5:27:50 PM UTC-5, Jony Hudson wrote: If this is the unofficial survey post of academics using Clojure then I'd better add myself to the list :-) @Bruce do you know what course they're going to be teaching Clojure on at Birkbeck? Jony On Friday, 10 October 2014 08:08:28 UTC+1, Bruce Durling wrote: I also know that Birkbeck College University of London is going to be teaching Clojure this year. On Oct 10, 2014 12:01 AM, Lee Spector lspe...@hampshire.edu wrote: FWIW I'm another person using Clojure mostly for academic research. And for computer science education, e.g. I'm currently teaching a Clojure-based AI course. I'd be curious to know how many others of us are out there. And BTW I think that attention to users in these categories could help to grow the community. -Lee On Oct 9, 2014, at 12:32 AM, Mars0i mars...@logical.net wrote: Thanks for the survey! I have a couple of suggestions/questions: For domains, there are no categories for scientific or other research applications. For example, I mainly use Clojure for writing agent-based models for academic research. Would a set of categories in this area be usedful? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clo...@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+u...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to clojure+u...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: ANN: State of Clojure 2014 Survey - please contribute!!
I'd be happy to include these for consideration next year. I think on the dev env we have removed some like this because they were not well represented in the results. The landscape for dev envs changes significantly year to year. On Wednesday, October 8, 2014 11:32:53 PM UTC-5, Mars0i wrote: Thanks for the survey! I have a couple of suggestions/questions: For domains, there are no categories for scientific or other research applications. For example, I mainly use Clojure for writing agent-based models for academic research. Would a set of categories in this area be usedful? The development environment options leave out more basic, simple methods. For example, I generally use vim and a repl run from the command line, which works well for me. I guess I should chose other, but that means I don't get counted among the vim users. Maybe the number of people like me is so small as to be ignorable? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: ANN: State of Clojure 2014 Survey - please contribute!!
Hey Zack, I don't know that we will include demographic questions in this survey in the future, something to think about. I do not need a poll to see that Clojure developers are predominantly white men, although that's also true of most programming languages and a consequence of larger pervasive issues in the industry. However, I think the Clojure community has been making progress on increasing diversity through efforts like ClojureBridge http://www.clojurebridge.org/ and the Clojure/conj opportunity grants http://clojure-conj.org/grants/. You might also find this project's data interesting: http://alyssafrazee.com/gender-and-github-code.html I would humbly submit that you should choose your language based on the best tool for the job and then work to hire, train, and improve diversity of the community regardless of what that tool may be. Alex On Monday, October 13, 2014 1:50:13 PM UTC-5, Zack Maril wrote: Next year, I would appreciate questions that measure the demographics of Clojure users be included. Out of the hundreds of people I've heard and seen talking about using Clojure, the vast majority of them have been white men. I've thought about it for a few days now and I can only think of three or four women who I know use Clojure and only a few non white men. I'd like to know if selecting Clojure as my default/main programming language means that I'll be forced to select from a fairly homogeneous group of potential coworkers and miss out on the benefits of a diverse working environment. -Zack On Friday, October 10, 2014 5:27:50 PM UTC-5, Jony Hudson wrote: If this is the unofficial survey post of academics using Clojure then I'd better add myself to the list :-) @Bruce do you know what course they're going to be teaching Clojure on at Birkbeck? Jony On Friday, 10 October 2014 08:08:28 UTC+1, Bruce Durling wrote: I also know that Birkbeck College University of London is going to be teaching Clojure this year. On Oct 10, 2014 12:01 AM, Lee Spector lspe...@hampshire.edu wrote: FWIW I'm another person using Clojure mostly for academic research. And for computer science education, e.g. I'm currently teaching a Clojure-based AI course. I'd be curious to know how many others of us are out there. And BTW I think that attention to users in these categories could help to grow the community. -Lee On Oct 9, 2014, at 12:32 AM, Mars0i mars...@logical.net wrote: Thanks for the survey! I have a couple of suggestions/questions: For domains, there are no categories for scientific or other research applications. For example, I mainly use Clojure for writing agent-based models for academic research. Would a set of categories in this area be usedful? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clo...@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+u...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to clojure+u...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: ANN: State of Clojure 2014 Survey - please contribute!!
On Monday, October 13, 2014 1:50:13 PM UTC-5, Zack Maril wrote: Next year, I would appreciate questions that measure the demographics of Clojure users be included. Out of the hundreds of people I've heard and seen talking about using Clojure, the vast majority of them have been white men. I've thought about it for a few days now and I can only think of three or four women who I know use Clojure and only a few non white men. I'd like to know if selecting Clojure as my default/main programming language means that I'll be forced to select from a fairly homogeneous group of potential coworkers and miss out on the benefits of a diverse working environment. -Zack I agree that including demographic questions would be a nice addition. In the U.S., the distribution of sexes and racial/ethnic groups among IT people http://dpeaflcio.org/professionals/professionals-in-the-workplace/the-professional-computer-work-force/ is pretty skewed toward white males, as I'm sure you would imagine. Even if the percentages of groups among Clojure programmers were the same as they are for, say, Java programmers, there would in theory be a lot more women and non-white Java programmers to choose from if you wanted to build a diverse shop. That is, in general if you're in a smaller community (Clojure), your flexibility is more limited. (Also, although I think the State of Clojure survey is valuable, no one would claim that it uses a reliable sampling method. That's not a criticism at all. Coming up with a reliable sample would be difficult, in practice, The point is that sampling problems can be worse when you're dealing with small numbers. So for example, if one group of people is a small but significant minority of all programmers, survey on their percentages in a relatively small community, such as the Clojure could be wildly inaccurate, even if their percentages were higher among Clojure programmers than in the general programming community. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: ANN: State of Clojure 2014 Survey - please contribute!!
It would've been nice to have back-stats to tell if efforts like Clojure bridge are having a statistical impact on the communities makeup. That being said, I'm sure the clojure bridge folk have their own internal metrics to guide their actions and measure outcomes, but it would've been nice to see overall. On Mon, Oct 13, 2014 at 5:10 PM, Mars0i marsh...@logical.net wrote: On Monday, October 13, 2014 1:50:13 PM UTC-5, Zack Maril wrote: Next year, I would appreciate questions that measure the demographics of Clojure users be included. Out of the hundreds of people I've heard and seen talking about using Clojure, the vast majority of them have been white men. I've thought about it for a few days now and I can only think of three or four women who I know use Clojure and only a few non white men. I'd like to know if selecting Clojure as my default/main programming language means that I'll be forced to select from a fairly homogeneous group of potential coworkers and miss out on the benefits of a diverse working environment. -Zack I agree that including demographic questions would be a nice addition. In the U.S., the distribution of sexes and racial/ethnic groups among IT people http://dpeaflcio.org/professionals/professionals-in-the-workplace/the-professional-computer-work-force/ is pretty skewed toward white males, as I'm sure you would imagine. Even if the percentages of groups among Clojure programmers were the same as they are for, say, Java programmers, there would in theory be a lot more women and non-white Java programmers to choose from if you wanted to build a diverse shop. That is, in general if you're in a smaller community (Clojure), your flexibility is more limited. (Also, although I think the State of Clojure survey is valuable, no one would claim that it uses a reliable sampling method. That's not a criticism at all. Coming up with a reliable sample would be difficult, in practice, The point is that sampling problems can be worse when you're dealing with small numbers. So for example, if one group of people is a small but significant minority of all programmers, survey on their percentages in a relatively small community, such as the Clojure could be wildly inaccurate, even if their percentages were higher among Clojure programmers than in the general programming community. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: ANN: State of Clojure 2014 Survey - please contribute!!
I also know that Birkbeck College University of London is going to be teaching Clojure this year. On Oct 10, 2014 12:01 AM, Lee Spector lspec...@hampshire.edu wrote: FWIW I'm another person using Clojure mostly for academic research. And for computer science education, e.g. I'm currently teaching a Clojure-based AI course. I'd be curious to know how many others of us are out there. And BTW I think that attention to users in these categories could help to grow the community. -Lee On Oct 9, 2014, at 12:32 AM, Mars0i marsh...@logical.net wrote: Thanks for the survey! I have a couple of suggestions/questions: For domains, there are no categories for scientific or other research applications. For example, I mainly use Clojure for writing agent-based models for academic research. Would a set of categories in this area be usedful? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: ANN: State of Clojure 2014 Survey - please contribute!!
I'd be interested in a site that lists examples of academic projects in Clojure. (I know of a few Clojure projects in areas of interest to me.) But only a little bit interested--not enough for me to create such a site. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: ANN: State of Clojure 2014 Survey - please contribute!!
If this is the unofficial survey post of academics using Clojure then I'd better add myself to the list :-) @Bruce do you know what course they're going to be teaching Clojure on at Birkbeck? Jony On Friday, 10 October 2014 08:08:28 UTC+1, Bruce Durling wrote: I also know that Birkbeck College University of London is going to be teaching Clojure this year. On Oct 10, 2014 12:01 AM, Lee Spector lspe...@hampshire.edu javascript: wrote: FWIW I'm another person using Clojure mostly for academic research. And for computer science education, e.g. I'm currently teaching a Clojure-based AI course. I'd be curious to know how many others of us are out there. And BTW I think that attention to users in these categories could help to grow the community. -Lee On Oct 9, 2014, at 12:32 AM, Mars0i mars...@logical.net javascript: wrote: Thanks for the survey! I have a couple of suggestions/questions: For domains, there are no categories for scientific or other research applications. For example, I mainly use Clojure for writing agent-based models for academic research. Would a set of categories in this area be usedful? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clo...@googlegroups.com javascript: Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+u...@googlegroups.com javascript: For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to clojure+u...@googlegroups.com javascript:. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: ANN: State of Clojure 2014 Survey - please contribute!!
FWIW I'm another person using Clojure mostly for academic research. And for computer science education, e.g. I'm currently teaching a Clojure-based AI course. I'd be curious to know how many others of us are out there. And BTW I think that attention to users in these categories could help to grow the community. -Lee On Oct 9, 2014, at 12:32 AM, Mars0i marsh...@logical.net wrote: Thanks for the survey! I have a couple of suggestions/questions: For domains, there are no categories for scientific or other research applications. For example, I mainly use Clojure for writing agent-based models for academic research. Would a set of categories in this area be usedful? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
ANN: State of Clojure 2014 Survey - please contribute!!
The 2014 State of Clojure survey is now available! This year's edition is broken into 2 parts - one for anyone who uses any Clojure dialect and a second specifically for ClojureScript users. http://blog.cognitect.com/blog/2014/10/3/2014-state-of-clojure-clojurescript-survey From a community perspective, it is really great to see this feedback every year to gauge the size and interests of the community. Both raw data and some analysis will be published after the survey ends on October 17th. Let me know if you have any questions, Alex Miller alex.mil...@cognitect.com -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: ANN: State of Clojure 2014 Survey - please contribute!!
Thanks for the survey! I have a couple of suggestions/questions: For domains, there are no categories for scientific or other research applications. For example, I mainly use Clojure for writing agent-based models for academic research. Would a set of categories in this area be usedful? The development environment options leave out more basic, simple methods. For example, I generally use vim and a repl run from the command line, which works well for me. I guess I should chose other, but that means I don't get counted among the vim users. Maybe the number of people like me is so small as to be ignorable? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
