Re: Embedded systems and transpiling Clojure to Nim

[Tyler Anderson]

I really like nim from just tinkering here and there. If i was looking to 
do what you are i'd go with nim or ocaml. 

Since i'm not exactly the most helpful person here i'd suggest you contact 
Dennis Felsing his blog is http://hookrace.net/
and his github is https://github.com/def-   he'd be able to tell you just 
how viable this path is.

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Re: Embedded systems and transpiling Clojure to Nim

[Paul deGrandis]

Hi Alan,

Yep, you can cross compile the output from Terra - you can even set it up 
to output compilations dynamically for any platform you want.  Replacing 
LuaJIT with Lua would just be a matter of changing the library that you 
link when building Terra itself.  As Timothy pointed out, Pixie is just 
going to be C, so you should be able to cross-compile the base for whatever 
platform you need (someone recently blogged about putting Pixie on the 
Raspberry Pi).

Cheers,
Paul

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Re: Embedded systems and transpiling Clojure to Nim

[John Gabriele]

Alan, there was an attempt at compiling Clojure to C, 
https://github.com/schani/clojurec , but it hasn't been updated in a while.


On Thursday, April 30, 2015 at 11:00:02 PM UTC-4, Alan Moore wrote:
>
> All,
>
> I just ran across Nim (previously Nimrod) which is a garbage collected 
> systems programming language that looks like a suitable target for 
> transpiling Clojure. See:
>
> http://nim-lang.org/
>
> My goal in looking at this is to have Clojure available in native code on 
> real-time embedded systems which is what I work on in my day job. It seemed 
> like targeting LLVM was the way forward with this goal but I have not heard 
> of any progress in this area and it feels large and foreboding. Obviously 
> targeting LLVM gives you a lot beyond just native code but it is limited in 
> the processors it supports. We use Freescale PPC processors which neither 
> LLVM nor most Javascript engines support, or if they do, they do so in a 
> very limited way - e.g. only certain procs, etc.
>
> Having a compiler toolchain that resolves down to C, small executables and 
> no/few dependencies is a huge advantage for using something like Nim.
>
> Is this of interest to anyone else? I'd like to get a proof of concept 
> started. Advice on porting Clojure to other languages would be greatly 
> appreciated :-)
>
> Alan
>
>

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Re: Embedded systems and transpiling Clojure to Nim

[Alan Moore]

Paul,

I'm quite impressed with what you and Timothy have done. I'm taking a third 
look at Pixie and cljs-terra. Is there any chance that cljs-terra could run 
on generic lua instead of terra/luajit?

The main problem I'm having is that anything that isn't interpreted (or 
that generates C/C++ I can cross-compile) is generally not going to support 
all of the processors in our various hardware products. My use case is 
functionality that is in common code so it needs to support the lesser 
brethren in our product lines. Two of our products have a modern SOC 
(Freescale P1022) which has some support in LLVM.

The faster javascript engines (V8) do not support anything beyond x86/ARM. 
I've been following Andrew Low's port of V8 to PPC but given the many kinds 
of PPC, from PS3s to AIX boxen, most are 64bit and so I can't tell if all 
of our procs are supported. The github page has the 32-bit build failing 
ATM. There is recent progress as indicated by this issue:

https://github.com/andrewlow/v8ppc/issues/119

I may be able to live with an interpreter since this portion of the code 
operates at human time scales and is not performance critical. Duktape 
(single file javascript engine written in C) is looking especially 
interesting as ClojureScript should "just work". Also, simplicity 
(especially fewer build/runtime dependencies) is more important than 
performance.

Obviously it would be great to have a JVM so I'm curious to hear more about 
your custom JRE, how you cross-compiled it, etc. Do you have any links to 
share? Unfortunately, this is only of personal interest as the group in 
charge of our custom platform support/bsp (and available libraries) is 
dead-set against anything JVM related, sad but true. I pick my battles 
carefully these days.

Thanks for your feedback - it is very helpful to see what others are doing.

Take care.

Alan


On Tuesday, May 5, 2015 at 7:27:52 AM UTC-7, Paul deGrandis wrote:
>
> I'm just going to echo a few things -
>
> Timothy and I have talked at length about Clojure-like languages on other 
> platforms.  His ideas and general approach have led to some very promising 
> work (Pixie), and I can personally vouch for RPython as a platform.  My 
> ideas led me to Terra ( http://terralang.org ) - which supports 
> LLVM-based compilation (AOT and JIT), dynamic typing/programming via LuaJit 
> integration, macros and AST manipulation, etc.  Based on this and some 
> needs I was trying to fill, I produced cljs-terra ( 
> https://github.com/ohpauleez/cljs-terra ).  The trade-off is the that 
> library support is a mix of Lua and C libs all intertwined.
>
> There is also the option of ClojureScript on top of Node.js (which I 
> recently used for an IoT system) - which has an ecosystem of libraries.
>
> All of that aside, I still tend to do my low-level work in C and C++14, 
> with some Lua and Terra occasionally.  I also recently used Oracle's 
> Embedded JVM with great success (producing a custom JRE for exactly what I 
> needed).
>
> Cheers,
> Paul
>
>

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Re: Embedded systems and transpiling Clojure to Nim

[Paul deGrandis]

I'm just going to echo a few things -

Timothy and I have talked at length about Clojure-like languages on other 
platforms.  His ideas and general approach have led to some very promising 
work (Pixie), and I can personally vouch for RPython as a platform.  My 
ideas led me to Terra ( http://terralang.org ) - which supports LLVM-based 
compilation (AOT and JIT), dynamic typing/programming via LuaJit 
integration, macros and AST manipulation, etc.  Based on this and some 
needs I was trying to fill, I produced cljs-terra ( 
https://github.com/ohpauleez/cljs-terra ).  The trade-off is the that 
library support is a mix of Lua and C libs all intertwined.

There is also the option of ClojureScript on top of Node.js (which I 
recently used for an IoT system) - which has an ecosystem of libraries.

All of that aside, I still tend to do my low-level work in C and C++14, 
with some Lua and Terra occasionally.  I also recently used Oracle's 
Embedded JVM with great success (producing a custom JRE for exactly what I 
needed).

Cheers,
Paul

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Re: Embedded systems and transpiling Clojure to Nim

[Herwig Hochleitner]

2015-05-05 2:04 GMT+02:00 Alan Moore :
>
>
> Herwig - I like your suggestion re: rclojure. That seems like a harder
> but more fruitful approach than other porting options. Do you have any
> references to this kind of approach in other languages?
>
>
It could be argued, that compilers doing escape analysis (which includes
Hotspot), have that subset of their input language hidden in them. However,
I'm not aware of a dynamic vm that takes that subset and uses it to provide
e.g. allocation-free transducers over homogeneous arrays (The latter being,
what i estimate as a minimal useful example of an allocation-free language
subset). Even rpython assumes a gc for all code, though it certainly tries
to eliminate many allocations.

Graal talks about it, so that could mean they might provide infrastructure:
https://wiki.openjdk.java.net/display/Graal/Graal+Partial+Escape+Analysis
And value types as planned for a future jdk will certainly help java
programmers eliminating allocations.

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Re: Embedded systems and transpiling Clojure to Nim

[Christopher Small]

Using clj-bots/chat is fine with me. If there ends up being much noise with
respect to this specific native compilation thread vs the project as a
whole, we can set up another gitter channel.

Cheers

On Mon, May 4, 2015 at 5:04 PM, Alan Moore 
wrote:

> All,
>
> Looks like I have some more research to do... A year or so ago I looked
> into going the Python/PyPy route but it's PPC support had previously
> stalled. I was intrigued by it's interpreter/tracing JIT structure.
>
> It seems to me that there would be a huge win, similar to the Clojure/JVM,
> ClojureScript/Javascript bump, for targeting Python. This would allow
> Clojure to integrate with many libraries for devops, big data, scientific
> and non-traditional IT communities. Pixie looks pretty nice - maybe that
> will work. TBD.
>
> I think I'd prefer to stay with the Clojure dialect rather than CL/others,
> partly because I am used to Clojure and partly because one of my use cases
> requires the same exact code running in an embedded system and in the
> browser, e.g. don't want to maintain separate versions of key algorithms.
>
> Herwig - I like your suggestion re: rclojure. That seems like a harder
> but more fruitful approach than other porting options. Do you have any
> references to this kind of approach in other languages?
>
> Fergal - I agree, many IoT projects are targeting Javascript which could
> obviously use ClojureScript. I've been looking at the duktape javascript
> library (supported by the AllSeen Alliance) but have yet to try it out on
> our target or running ClojureScript generated code. I will also look
> at Elixir.
>
> Thanks for the feedback everyone. If anyone is interested in taking this
> topic offline so as not to spam this group with our corner case, let's use
> Chris' chat as a point of contact (if he doesn't mind):
>
> For those who missed his link, here it is:
>
> https://gitter.im/clj-bots/chat
>
> See you over there.
>
> Alan
>
> On Mon, May 4, 2015 at 1:25 AM, adrians  wrote:
>
>> Alan, have you looked at Clasp? I'm not sure if CL is something you like,
>> but maybe it has potential for your application.
>>
>> https://github.com/drmeister/clasp
>>
>>
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>
>
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Re: Embedded systems and transpiling Clojure to Nim

[Alan Moore]

All,

Looks like I have some more research to do... A year or so ago I looked
into going the Python/PyPy route but it's PPC support had previously
stalled. I was intrigued by it's interpreter/tracing JIT structure.

It seems to me that there would be a huge win, similar to the Clojure/JVM,
ClojureScript/Javascript bump, for targeting Python. This would allow
Clojure to integrate with many libraries for devops, big data, scientific
and non-traditional IT communities. Pixie looks pretty nice - maybe that
will work. TBD.

I think I'd prefer to stay with the Clojure dialect rather than CL/others,
partly because I am used to Clojure and partly because one of my use cases
requires the same exact code running in an embedded system and in the
browser, e.g. don't want to maintain separate versions of key algorithms.

Herwig - I like your suggestion re: rclojure. That seems like a harder but
more fruitful approach than other porting options. Do you have any
references to this kind of approach in other languages?

Fergal - I agree, many IoT projects are targeting Javascript which could
obviously use ClojureScript. I've been looking at the duktape javascript
library (supported by the AllSeen Alliance) but have yet to try it out on
our target or running ClojureScript generated code. I will also look
at Elixir.

Thanks for the feedback everyone. If anyone is interested in taking this
topic offline so as not to spam this group with our corner case, let's use
Chris' chat as a point of contact (if he doesn't mind):

For those who missed his link, here it is:

https://gitter.im/clj-bots/chat

See you over there.

Alan

On Mon, May 4, 2015 at 1:25 AM, adrians  wrote:

> Alan, have you looked at Clasp? I'm not sure if CL is something you like,
> but maybe it has potential for your application.
>
> https://github.com/drmeister/clasp
>
>
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Re: Embedded systems and transpiling Clojure to Nim

[adrians]

Alan, have you looked at Clasp? I'm not sure if CL is something you like, 
but maybe it has potential for your application.

https://github.com/drmeister/clasp


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Re: Embedded systems and transpiling Clojure to Nim

[Herwig Hochleitner]

Tim,

I agree that porting enough of rpython to run pixie seems like the best way
to get started on a given bare-metal platform. Not least because pypy's
contributors would certainly be sympathetic to that effort.

Still, a piece that I'd really love to see is, what I call rclojure: That
is, tools for working with an allocation-free subset of clojure (think
asm.js); optimizing it based on inference and/or profiling; transpiling it
into various various bytecodes that lack a built-in gc; finally a code
transformer that can map code with deterministic stack usage into that
subset.

That would be useful not only for native code generators, but also for
talking to APIs that let you define data formats that you pass, like OpenGL
vertex buffers.

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Re: Embedded systems and transpiling Clojure to Nim

[Fergal Byrne]

Hi Alan,

Don't be deterred - it's a great question... Some people are just having a
separate conversation in the one thread ;)

I think there is a threshold in your domain, which gives a different answer
on each side.

The easy side is for something RaspberryPi or Arduino-sized (or bigger),
where you can - as Chris' wonderful talk demonstrates - simply run a big
fat JVM on your hardware. This might be a bit wasteful, but Moore's Law has
given us this and we can happily concentrate on the domain (improving life
for your chickens) and ignore the hardware.

It's likely you're really asking about the hard side of that boundary,
where I guess most of us big-iron software people have little expertise. On
this side, you're talking about development in a language which assumes a
VM, but you've to execute in a world without it. You've two main choices:
a) compile all the way down to metal or b) mimic the VM very thinly.

For a) the Clojure to Gambit Scheme to C route is not insane. All compilers
use lots of intermediate representations (DSLs) and compile from one to the
next in stages. It's likely that this exact pathway is not optimal, so
perhaps we'll need a better one for real embedded Clojure.

For b) something like Nim might be a fit. It looks to me like combining
Clojurescript's Cljs-in-Cljs (or similar in Elixir's) design with an
"emitter" for Nim (and using Nim mutable data structures instead of Java's)
might work.

You could consider b) as a) in Nim's clothing, by the way.

On the other hand, there is huge effort going into the Javascript engines
for embedded systems. Plain Clojurescript could be used here. In terms of
how much effort *we* have to put in, this route might be the one.

By the way, the Erlang people have projects [1, 2] to dig up their ancient,
tiny BEAM designs for use in embedded systems and the new massively
multicore chips like Parallela. It's not Clojure, but Elixir is a
love-child of Clojure and Erlang which might be worth looking at.

Regards,

Fergal

[1] http://www.erlang-embedded.com/about/
[2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tCg1LakJF3g

On Sat, May 2, 2015 at 7:43 AM, Kimmo Koskinen 
wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Wanted to mention two more languages, that might be interesting:
>
> Hy: http://docs.hylang.org/en/latest/ (Lisp that targets Python's AST,
> has Clojure flavoured syntax)
> newLISP: http://www.newlisp.org/ (at least FFI seems simple:
> http://www.newlisp.org/newlisp_manual.html#import)
>
> - Kimmo
>
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Founder of Clortex: HTM in Clojure -
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Author, Real Machine Intelligence with Clortex and NuPIC
Read for free or buy the book at https://leanpub.com/realsmartmachines

Speaking on Clortex and HTM/CLA at euroClojure Krakow, June 2014:
http://euroclojure.com/2014/
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Re: Embedded systems and transpiling Clojure to Nim

[Kimmo Koskinen]

Hi,

Wanted to mention two more languages, that might be interesting:

Hy: http://docs.hylang.org/en/latest/ (Lisp that targets Python's AST, has 
Clojure flavoured syntax)
newLISP: http://www.newlisp.org/ (at least FFI seems simple: 
http://www.newlisp.org/newlisp_manual.html#import)

- Kimmo

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Re: Embedded systems and transpiling Clojure to Nim

[Fluid Dynamics]

On Friday, May 1, 2015 at 4:58:37 PM UTC-4, raould wrote:
>
> > Another possibility is https://github.com/takeoutweight/clojure-scheme. 
> It 
> > compiles Clojure to Gambit Scheme to C to metal. 
>
> another possibility is to stab oneself in the eye with a sharp stick. 
>
> just sayin'. 
>
> :-) 
>

Hear, hear. After cdring down a language-path that long you'll be lucky to 
get anything more sensible out the other end than "hexapodia is the key 
insight". ;) 

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Re: Embedded systems and transpiling Clojure to Nim

[gvim]

I've looked around intermittently for something Clojure-esque to fill 
the scripting/sysadmin void and Pixie is the only thing I've come across 
which inspires hope. The only remaining issue for me is whether it can 
tap into existing (Python) libraries as that's what tends to swing the 
vote for scripting languages. With more languages fragmenting the 
landscape building a community and sizeable selection of libraries is 
that much harder but I hope Pixie rises above the legions of 
Lisp-in-language-X exercises one finds on Hacker News by the dozen.


gvim



On 01/05/2015 18:10, Timothy Baldridge wrote:

Yes, I when we finally get around to doing binary releases I plan on
shipping x86_64, x86 and ARM7 binaries, as those are the platforms I
have access to.

The other thing that would hinder adoption to other platforms is most
likely the stacklet library (lightweight threads), Pixie uses this
fairly heavily and it would probably need to be ported to PPC.

And yes there is a LuaJIT version of Clojure with support for Terra:
https://github.com/ohpauleez/cljs-terra

Doesn't look like it's been maintained recently however.

Timothy



On Fri, May 1, 2015 at 10:18 AM, Herwig Hochleitner
mailto:hhochleit...@gmail.com>> wrote:

Tim,

I went with what I saw on http://pypy.org/features.html "... runs on
Intel x86 (IA-32) , x86_64 and ARM platforms, with PPC being stalled
...". Not sure if that's just for the JIT, but if it were, they
would list non-JIT platforms separately, no?

I'm aware, that you use RPython directly, but you still reuse a lot
of RPython from PyPy, right? Has pixie been tested on any non-x86
platform yet?
​
Alan,

have you seen https://github.com/raph-amiard/clojurescript-lua ?

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Re: Embedded systems and transpiling Clojure to Nim

[Alan Moore]

Chris,

I'll watch the video and then head on over - talk to you soon.

Alan

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Re: Embedded systems and transpiling Clojure to Nim

[Alan Moore]

In my world the JVM is a non-starter. I don't care if it fits in a ring (
http://www.javaworld.com/article/2076641/learn-java/an-introduction-to-the-java-ring.html),
culturally it just won't fly. Even Forth has a better chance of making it
than the JVM.

Re: Zulu embedded - "Intel/AMD x86. Please contact us for availability of
ARM, SPARC or other support packages." doesn't work for us.

Re: Lua, and other lisps, sure we could go that route. We already have Lua
in our devices.  I have a very specific use case in mind that I
think Clojure would be especially well suited for that Lua just doesn't
help me in the same way. YMMV.

I'm sorry you don't like this question. I can assure you that I'm not some
naive wild eyed Clojure fanboy as your responses suggest. I'm simply asking
if anyone else is interested in making this possible, I'll put you down in
the "no" and "hell no" columns. ;-)

I'm sure Rich got a lot of "aren't there already enough actual Lisps that
have been used forever" when he started Clojure. I'm glad they did not
deter him.

Take care.

Alan


On Fri, May 1, 2015 at 2:51 PM, Raoul Duke  wrote:

> > Both Nim and Pixie ultimately compile to C, and would have just as many
> > layers of indirection.
>
> aand they are all insane for anything other than learning
> themselves at this point, i'd hazard to guess. but i'm a realist, who
> knows. i'd rather go for a real jvm e.g. azul's embedded stuff, or
> something like that first if at all possible. :-)
>
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Re: Embedded systems and transpiling Clojure to Nim

[Christopher Small]

I hear you Alan.

I'm just a hardware hobbyist, but I've been working on a Clojure library
for abstracting away some of the differences between different boards
(Raspberry Pi, BeagleBone Black, etc): https://github.com/clj-bots/pin-ctrl.
Currently, my best bet for Arduino is to use Firmata, but I would love to
be able to provide native compilation targets, since that would open up a
whole lot.

I'd love to have you join the group, if only to provide feedback (which
given your professional experience would be invaluable). We have a chat
here: https://gitter.im/clj-bots/chat.

Cheers

Chris


PS Gave a talk about this at ClojureWest, if you're interested:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0EQMrpZb7-Y. Most of the talk is actually
about the automatic chicken coop door I set up, but a good chunk of it is
introduction of pin-ctrl and call to arms for hardware developers as well.



On Fri, May 1, 2015 at 2:50 PM, Alan Moore 
wrote:

> On Fri, May 1, 2015 at 1:58 PM, Raoul Duke  wrote:
>
>> > Another possibility is https://github.com/takeoutweight/clojure-scheme.
>> It
>> > compiles Clojure to Gambit Scheme to C to metal.
>>
>> another possibility is to stab oneself in the eye with a sharp stick.
>>
>
> Yeah... well, I do that on a daily basis working in C/C++ so just about
> anything is better than what I have going on ATM.
>
> Not all of us have the luxury of day jobs in Clojure. The embedded world
> is sorely lacking when it comes to levels of abstraction and the world is
> asking more and more from it. Not everything in the IoT is a phone with an
> expensive processor and lots of memory, well, unless you want to buy a $700
> toaster *on contract*. After slogging mutation around for [self edit] years
> I'll do just about anything to get me some of that Clojure goodness,
> starting with a REPL!
>
> I really like Clojure and prefer it over Scheme, if nothing more than to
> get better data structures... kinda half the point of Lisp to begin with
> and a huge selling point for Clojure IMO.
>
> Aside - I'm bummed that when I was originally introduced to Lisp there
> were only car, cdr, etc. Really?! What a turn off. Went down the mutation
> rat hole and am just now coming out... register access acronyms for
> function names!?!? What *genius* thought up that bright idea? ;-)
>
> Alan
>
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Re: Embedded systems and transpiling Clojure to Nim

[Raoul Duke]

My goodness, there are other things than Clojure in the universe.
People have been making "native" software with "real" languages for
ages. There's probably even some that are fpish or heck go get an
actual lisp that's been used for ever (franz, allegro, ecl, gambit,
chicken, clozure, tinyscheme, etc.). Or an async or sync dataflow
langauge. Or just lua. etc. etc. etc. :-)

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Re: Embedded systems and transpiling Clojure to Nim

[Raoul Duke]

> Both Nim and Pixie ultimately compile to C, and would have just as many
> layers of indirection.

aand they are all insane for anything other than learning
themselves at this point, i'd hazard to guess. but i'm a realist, who
knows. i'd rather go for a real jvm e.g. azul's embedded stuff, or
something like that first if at all possible. :-)

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Re: Embedded systems and transpiling Clojure to Nim

[Alan Moore]

On Fri, May 1, 2015 at 1:58 PM, Raoul Duke  wrote:

> > Another possibility is https://github.com/takeoutweight/clojure-scheme.
> It
> > compiles Clojure to Gambit Scheme to C to metal.
>
> another possibility is to stab oneself in the eye with a sharp stick.
>

Yeah... well, I do that on a daily basis working in C/C++ so just about
anything is better than what I have going on ATM.

Not all of us have the luxury of day jobs in Clojure. The embedded world is
sorely lacking when it comes to levels of abstraction and the world is
asking more and more from it. Not everything in the IoT is a phone with an
expensive processor and lots of memory, well, unless you want to buy a $700
toaster *on contract*. After slogging mutation around for [self edit] years
I'll do just about anything to get me some of that Clojure goodness,
starting with a REPL!

I really like Clojure and prefer it over Scheme, if nothing more than to
get better data structures... kinda half the point of Lisp to begin with
and a huge selling point for Clojure IMO.

Aside - I'm bummed that when I was originally introduced to Lisp there were
only car, cdr, etc. Really?! What a turn off. Went down the mutation rat
hole and am just now coming out... register access acronyms for function
names!?!? What *genius* thought up that bright idea? ;-)

Alan

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Re: Embedded systems and transpiling Clojure to Nim

[Ben Wolfson]

I'd assumed that pixie, like other projects using the RPython toolchain,
was itself compiled, but ran as an interpreter. Is that not the case?

On Fri, May 1, 2015 at 2:43 PM, Christopher Small 
wrote:

> Both Nim and Pixie ultimately compile to C, and would have just as many
> layers of indirection.
>
> On Fri, May 1, 2015 at 2:37 PM, Raoul Duke  wrote:
>
>> all i'm trying to say is that the more layers of indirection you add,
>> the more i won't give you any money on kickstarter.
>>
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Re: Embedded systems and transpiling Clojure to Nim

[Christopher Small]

Both Nim and Pixie ultimately compile to C, and would have just as many
layers of indirection.

On Fri, May 1, 2015 at 2:37 PM, Raoul Duke  wrote:

> all i'm trying to say is that the more layers of indirection you add,
> the more i won't give you any money on kickstarter.
>
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Re: Embedded systems and transpiling Clojure to Nim

[Raoul Duke]

all i'm trying to say is that the more layers of indirection you add,
the more i won't give you any money on kickstarter.

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Re: Embedded systems and transpiling Clojure to Nim

[Christopher Small]

Well... Correct me if I'm wrong, but this entire thread is about compiling 
Clojure to native targets. Are folks here really talking about embedding a 
JVM?

Has cljs been poor roi? :-)

Chris


On Friday, May 1, 2015 at 2:25:27 PM UTC-7, raould wrote:
>
> I just would guess that anything other than an embedded JVM would 
> be... poor r.o.i., to be polite. 
>

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Re: Embedded systems and transpiling Clojure to Nim

[Raoul Duke]

I just would guess that anything other than an embedded JVM would
be... poor r.o.i., to be polite.

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Re: Embedded systems and transpiling Clojure to Nim

[Christopher Small]

Hah; I have no experience with it. Is it that bad?

At least there's another Lisp in there. Lisps all the way down!

On Fri, May 1, 2015 at 1:58 PM, Raoul Duke  wrote:

> > Another possibility is https://github.com/takeoutweight/clojure-scheme.
> It
> > compiles Clojure to Gambit Scheme to C to metal.
>
> another possibility is to stab oneself in the eye with a sharp stick.
>
> just sayin'.
>
> :-)
>
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Re: Embedded systems and transpiling Clojure to Nim

[Raoul Duke]

> Another possibility is https://github.com/takeoutweight/clojure-scheme. It
> compiles Clojure to Gambit Scheme to C to metal.

another possibility is to stab oneself in the eye with a sharp stick.

just sayin'.

:-)

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Re: Embedded systems and transpiling Clojure to Nim

[Christopher Small]

Another possibility is https://github.com/takeoutweight/clojure-scheme. It 
compiles Clojure to Gambit Scheme to C to metal. It's been a couple of 
years since there was any activity on that project, but it's possible some 
attention there could get it where you need it. 

Nim seems interesting though. I wasn't really aware of it; only the 
combinatorial game by the same name.

In any case, I think this is an awesome goal. I'd particularly like to see 
an option for running Clojure of some ilk on Arduino and the like.

Cheers

Chris

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Re: Embedded systems and transpiling Clojure to Nim

[Timothy Baldridge]

Yes, I when we finally get around to doing binary releases I plan on
shipping x86_64, x86 and ARM7 binaries, as those are the platforms I have
access to.

The other thing that would hinder adoption to other platforms is most
likely the stacklet library (lightweight threads), Pixie uses this fairly
heavily and it would probably need to be ported to PPC.

And yes there is a LuaJIT version of Clojure with support for Terra:
https://github.com/ohpauleez/cljs-terra

Doesn't look like it's been maintained recently however.

Timothy



On Fri, May 1, 2015 at 10:18 AM, Herwig Hochleitner 
wrote:

> Tim,
>
> I went with what I saw on http://pypy.org/features.html "... runs on
> Intel x86 (IA-32) , x86_64 and ARM platforms, with PPC being stalled ...".
> Not sure if that's just for the JIT, but if it were, they would list
> non-JIT platforms separately, no?
>
> I'm aware, that you use RPython directly, but you still reuse a lot of
> RPython from PyPy, right? Has pixie been tested on any non-x86 platform yet?
> ​
> Alan,
>
> have you seen https://github.com/raph-amiard/clojurescript-lua ?
>
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Re: Embedded systems and transpiling Clojure to Nim

[Herwig Hochleitner]

Tim,

I went with what I saw on http://pypy.org/features.html "... runs on Intel
x86 (IA-32) , x86_64 and ARM platforms, with PPC being stalled ...". Not
sure if that's just for the JIT, but if it were, they would list non-JIT
platforms separately, no?

I'm aware, that you use RPython directly, but you still reuse a lot of
RPython from PyPy, right? Has pixie been tested on any non-x86 platform yet?
​
Alan,

have you seen https://github.com/raph-amiard/clojurescript-lua ?

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Re: Embedded systems and transpiling Clojure to Nim

[Alan Moore]

Agreed re: PyPy, Pixie. I got excited when I first saw that project...

As an alternative to straight C I've thought about targeting Lua but also 
wonder how much that buys you... TBD. I thought I remember reading someone 
going down that route - anyone?

Alan

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Re: Embedded systems and transpiling Clojure to Nim

[Alan Moore]

You have clearly looked into this more in depth than I have... Thanks for 
sharing your thoughts. I missed the part about the wonky case insensitivity 
(truly bizarre and hazard prone IMHO) and have not looked into the type 
system/inference so I can't comment just yet.

I'm not partial to Nim in particular but I really would like *something* I 
could use. I wouldn't mind going direct to C if there were some existing GC and 
immutable DS libraries we could lean on. I think there are enough issues with 
the transpiling that I wouldn't want to take on those as well.

I too was thinking of following ClojureScript's lead on this but was hoping to 
have macros available but now that I say it out loud dragging the compiler 
along for the ride seems like a bad choice given the target environment. Maybe 
that could be an optional feature for those who have the memory/proc resources.

Let me know how much interest you are likely to have (passing, involved, 
committed) for this. I appreciate your thoughtful comments - thanks!

Alan

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Re: Embedded systems and transpiling Clojure to Nim

[Timothy Baldridge]

Well RPython (what pixie is built on) is C...so you get quite a bit of
reach there. And I'd be tempted to say that it would be easier to adapt the
existing RPython PPC backend to Freescale PPC than it would be to get Nim
to play nice with Clojure semantics.

And let's not forget, RPython can be fastsuper fast. Stuff like
transducers are slow on non-JIT'ed platforms, work well on JITs like the
JVM, and absolutely scream on tracing JITs (like RPython's JITs)

Anyway, just some thoughts.

Timothy

On Fri, May 1, 2015 at 9:10 AM, Herwig Hochleitner 
wrote:

> I have seen it.
>
> PyPy (the platform for pixie) hasn't the reach of even LLVM, let alone
> plain C, so while there might be overlap in other areas, pixie is a
> no-starter for non-mainstream hardware.
>
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Re: Embedded systems and transpiling Clojure to Nim

[Herwig Hochleitner]

I have seen it.

PyPy (the platform for pixie) hasn't the reach of even LLVM, let alone
plain C, so while there might be overlap in other areas, pixie is a
no-starter for non-mainstream hardware.

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Re: Embedded systems and transpiling Clojure to Nim

[Gary Trakhman]

Have you guys seen pixie yet?

It seems like there's overlap for the requirements here.

https://github.com/pixie-lang/pixie

On Fri, May 1, 2015 at 5:46 AM, Herwig Hochleitner 
wrote:

> I think Nim is pretty cool (conceptionally, haven't used it yet) and full
> of wonderous features: From the hands down awesome, like the a la carte GC,
> its AST - based macros and optimizations and effect system to positively
> weird stuff like its partial case-insensitivity (foo-bar == fooBar ==
> foo_bar == foobar == fOOBAr; wat?) or its method calls (obj.foo(bar) ==
> foo(obj, bar); I don't even). Overall it's appealing to me and certainly
> seems easier than rust. And, of course, I'm interested in new
> implementations of clojure.
>
> I'm optimistic about is the possibility to optimize the common case of
> dynamic features by term-rewriting macros.
>
> However, I have some concerns about it:
> - How will nim's static types interact with dynamic features; can enough
> types for the compiler be generated by inference?
> - Could it be that nim is too rich a base as a host language? For the
> added indirection and complexity: What do we gain over transpiling to C and
> generating an accurate type map for BoehmGC?
>
> Concerning porting Clojure: I think ClojureScript's experiment of putting
> protocols/deftypes first in the bootstrapping chain has proven out, so I'd
> start with figuring out how protocols are best represented (nim's
> multimethods?). Since nim already has first-class functions, special care
> has to be taken how they interact with the IFn protocol.
>
> What do you think?
>
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Re: Embedded systems and transpiling Clojure to Nim

[Herwig Hochleitner]

I think Nim is pretty cool (conceptionally, haven't used it yet) and full
of wonderous features: From the hands down awesome, like the a la carte GC,
its AST - based macros and optimizations and effect system to positively
weird stuff like its partial case-insensitivity (foo-bar == fooBar ==
foo_bar == foobar == fOOBAr; wat?) or its method calls (obj.foo(bar) ==
foo(obj, bar); I don't even). Overall it's appealing to me and certainly
seems easier than rust. And, of course, I'm interested in new
implementations of clojure.

I'm optimistic about is the possibility to optimize the common case of
dynamic features by term-rewriting macros.

However, I have some concerns about it:
- How will nim's static types interact with dynamic features; can enough
types for the compiler be generated by inference?
- Could it be that nim is too rich a base as a host language? For the added
indirection and complexity: What do we gain over transpiling to C and
generating an accurate type map for BoehmGC?

Concerning porting Clojure: I think ClojureScript's experiment of putting
protocols/deftypes first in the bootstrapping chain has proven out, so I'd
start with figuring out how protocols are best represented (nim's
multimethods?). Since nim already has first-class functions, special care
has to be taken how they interact with the IFn protocol.

What do you think?

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Embedded systems and transpiling Clojure to Nim

[Alan Moore]

All,

I just ran across Nim (previously Nimrod) which is a garbage collected 
systems programming language that looks like a suitable target for 
transpiling Clojure. See:

http://nim-lang.org/

My goal in looking at this is to have Clojure available in native code on 
real-time embedded systems which is what I work on in my day job. It seemed 
like targeting LLVM was the way forward with this goal but I have not heard 
of any progress in this area and it feels large and foreboding. Obviously 
targeting LLVM gives you a lot beyond just native code but it is limited in 
the processors it supports. We use Freescale PPC processors which neither 
LLVM nor most Javascript engines support, or if they do, they do so in a 
very limited way - e.g. only certain procs, etc.

Having a compiler toolchain that resolves down to C, small executables and 
no/few dependencies is a huge advantage for using something like Nim.

Is this of interest to anyone else? I'd like to get a proof of concept 
started. Advice on porting Clojure to other languages would be greatly 
appreciated :-)

Alan

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