Re: Stus-List Help understanding composites

[Jim Watts]

Depends on the water temperature and the state of undress of the
participants.

Jim Watts
Paradigm Shift
C&C 35 Mk III
Victoria, BC


On 1 March 2014 20:32, Rich Knowles  wrote:

> All I know is; people on the inside, water on the outside.  Works for me.
>
> Rich
>
> On Mar 1, 2014, at 22:52, Dennis Cheuvront  wrote:
>
> John,
>
> For more info, go here: <
> http://www.fibreglast.com/category/Learning_Center>
>
> Lots of info on resin infusion, fiberglass fabric, roving, mat, and lots
> of stuff you don't want to know about.  Articles and videos.
>
> Dennis C.
> Touche' 35-1 #83
> Mandeville, LA
>
>
> On Sat, Mar 1, 2014 at 7:16 PM, j...@svpaws.net  wrote:
>
>> Thanks - was confusing the terms mat and roving.  Wish the book was still
>> in print - will need to find a copy.
>>
>> John
>>
>>
>> Sent from my iPad
>>
>> On Mar 1, 2014, at 2:53 PM, Jim Watts  wrote:
>>
>> Glass mat and chopped strand are the same thing...CSM. The 34+ was
>> probably a layup of CSM, woven roving, and kevlar in a vinylester matrix
>> with balsa core. E glass is the same basis as woven roving, just a
>> different weave. Cloth is a lighter version of roving. The woven roving in
>> the 34+ and the 121 would both be e-glass, although the later boat would
>> likely have some biaxial or unidirectional glass in places for better
>> engineered strength. For more information, have a look at this...
>> http://www.marinecomposites.com/
>>
>>
>>
>> Jim Watts
>> Paradigm Shift
>> C&C 35 Mk III
>> Victoria, BC
>>
>>
>> On 1 March 2014 11:27, j...@svpaws.net  wrote:
>>
>>> I'm but an accountant not an engineer. Help me understand this stuff..
>>>
>>> So if I use a 1990 34+ as the baseline, the hull was a composite of
>>> vinyl resin, presumably glass matt and chopped strand, balsa core and
>>> Kevlar.
>>>
>>> Now fast forward to 2000 and my early 121.  The glass Matt has been
>>> replaced by E glass, balsa has been replaced by core cell, glass strand
>>> remains to add bulk and the Kevlar remains.  Presumably this provides a
>>> lighter hull as the e glass is stronger than matt, core cell is lighter
>>> than balsa and requires less resin and the Kevlar remains the same.
>>>
>>> Fast forward another 10 years and we have epoxy, reinforced with carbon
>>> which does the job of Kevlar, matt, e glass and strand.  The core cell
>>> remains.
>>>
>>> Am I even close?
>>>
>>> John
>>>
>>>
>>> ___
>>> This List is provided by the C&C Photo Album
>>> http://www.cncphotoalbum.com
>>> CnC-List@cnc-list.com
>>>
>>
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>> CnC-List@cnc-list.com
>>
>>
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>>
>>
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Re: Stus-List Help understanding composites

[Rich Knowles]

All I know is; people on the inside, water on the outside.  Works for me. 

Rich

> On Mar 1, 2014, at 22:52, Dennis Cheuvront  wrote:
> 
> John,
> 
> For more info, go here: 
> 
> Lots of info on resin infusion, fiberglass fabric, roving, mat, and lots of 
> stuff you don't want to know about.  Articles and videos.
> 
> Dennis C.
> Touche' 35-1 #83
> Mandeville, LA
> 
> 
>> On Sat, Mar 1, 2014 at 7:16 PM, j...@svpaws.net  wrote:
>> Thanks - was confusing the terms mat and roving.  Wish the book was still in 
>> print - will need to find a copy.
>> 
>> John
>> 
>> 
>> Sent from my iPad
>> 
>>> On Mar 1, 2014, at 2:53 PM, Jim Watts  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Glass mat and chopped strand are the same thing...CSM. The 34+ was probably 
>>> a layup of CSM, woven roving, and kevlar in a vinylester matrix with balsa 
>>> core. E glass is the same basis as woven roving, just a different weave. 
>>> Cloth is a lighter version of roving. The woven roving in the 34+ and the 
>>> 121 would both be e-glass, although the later boat would likely have some 
>>> biaxial or unidirectional glass in places for better engineered strength. 
>>> For more information, have a look at this...http://www.marinecomposites.com/
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>> Jim Watts
>>> Paradigm Shift
>>> C&C 35 Mk III
>>> Victoria, BC
>>> 
>>> 
 On 1 March 2014 11:27, j...@svpaws.net  wrote:
 I'm but an accountant not an engineer. Help me understand this stuff..
 
 So if I use a 1990 34+ as the baseline, the hull was a composite of vinyl 
 resin, presumably glass matt and chopped strand, balsa core and Kevlar.
 
 Now fast forward to 2000 and my early 121.  The glass Matt has been 
 replaced by E glass, balsa has been replaced by core cell, glass strand 
 remains to add bulk and the Kevlar remains.  Presumably this provides a 
 lighter hull as the e glass is stronger than matt, core cell is lighter 
 than balsa and requires less resin and the Kevlar remains the same.
 
 Fast forward another 10 years and we have epoxy, reinforced with carbon 
 which does the job of Kevlar, matt, e glass and strand.  The core cell 
 remains.
 
 Am I even close?
 
 John
 
 
 ___
 This List is provided by the C&C Photo Album
 http://www.cncphotoalbum.com
 CnC-List@cnc-list.com
>>> 
>>> ___
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>> 
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Re: Stus-List Help understanding composites

[Dennis Cheuvront]

John,

For more info, go here: 

Lots of info on resin infusion, fiberglass fabric, roving, mat, and lots of
stuff you don't want to know about.  Articles and videos.

Dennis C.
Touche' 35-1 #83
Mandeville, LA


On Sat, Mar 1, 2014 at 7:16 PM, j...@svpaws.net  wrote:

> Thanks - was confusing the terms mat and roving.  Wish the book was still
> in print - will need to find a copy.
>
> John
>
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Mar 1, 2014, at 2:53 PM, Jim Watts  wrote:
>
> Glass mat and chopped strand are the same thing...CSM. The 34+ was
> probably a layup of CSM, woven roving, and kevlar in a vinylester matrix
> with balsa core. E glass is the same basis as woven roving, just a
> different weave. Cloth is a lighter version of roving. The woven roving in
> the 34+ and the 121 would both be e-glass, although the later boat would
> likely have some biaxial or unidirectional glass in places for better
> engineered strength. For more information, have a look at this...
> http://www.marinecomposites.com/
>
>
>
> Jim Watts
> Paradigm Shift
> C&C 35 Mk III
> Victoria, BC
>
>
> On 1 March 2014 11:27, j...@svpaws.net  wrote:
>
>> I'm but an accountant not an engineer. Help me understand this stuff..
>>
>> So if I use a 1990 34+ as the baseline, the hull was a composite of vinyl
>> resin, presumably glass matt and chopped strand, balsa core and Kevlar.
>>
>> Now fast forward to 2000 and my early 121.  The glass Matt has been
>> replaced by E glass, balsa has been replaced by core cell, glass strand
>> remains to add bulk and the Kevlar remains.  Presumably this provides a
>> lighter hull as the e glass is stronger than matt, core cell is lighter
>> than balsa and requires less resin and the Kevlar remains the same.
>>
>> Fast forward another 10 years and we have epoxy, reinforced with carbon
>> which does the job of Kevlar, matt, e glass and strand.  The core cell
>> remains.
>>
>> Am I even close?
>>
>> John
>>
>>
>> ___
>> This List is provided by the C&C Photo Album
>> http://www.cncphotoalbum.com
>> CnC-List@cnc-list.com
>>
>
> ___
> This List is provided by the C&C Photo Album
> http://www.cncphotoalbum.com
> CnC-List@cnc-list.com
>
>
> ___
> This List is provided by the C&C Photo Album
> http://www.cncphotoalbum.com
> CnC-List@cnc-list.com
>
>
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Re: Stus-List Help understanding composites

[sam . c . salter]

Most of the tension and compression strength in a hull thickness is at the 
inner and outer edges. The balsa/foam/core cell? (that's not the right word, 
but my brain is full at the moment) is a lightweight centre to keep the outside 
and inside strength members apart. (like the web of a "H" beam keeps the outer 
flanges apart - where most of the stiffness resides.

sam :-)
C&C 26 Liquorice 
Ghost Lake Alberta 

  Original Message  
From: j...@svpaws.net
Sent: Saturday, March 1, 2014 6:24 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Reply To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Subject: Re: Stus-List Help understanding composites

yes, clearly balsa would rot when wet where as the core cell would not. 
Presumably the latter would just delaminate much like a blister? Is the 
advantage of the foam core that any moisture intrusion would be more localized? 
Is there a weight and/or cost benefit? I would guess the balsa would have 
greater insulating properties however the foam would add some strength?

So much knowledge on this list

John


Sent from my iPad

> On Mar 1, 2014, at 4:29 PM, "dwight"  wrote:
> 
> Balsa core rots when it gets wet but it is quite strong on end if
> ebcapsutaed but a solid surface like a several layers of glass matt in cured
> polyester or other resin...aligned E glass fibers used with knowledge of
> where the stresses are highest offer more tensile strength than chopped
> strand and consequently less are required so lighter weight construction can
> result and have the same or better strength. Kevlar fibers have very high
> tensile strength and used as Kevlar matt in a resin laminate has good
> resistance to impact damage and is also very lightweight, carbon fibers are
> very lightweight and have high tensile strength as well, but the best
> results are achieved with proper alignment of the fibers corresponding to
> the direction of highest stress
> Just a guess
> -Original Message-
> From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of
> j...@svpaws.net
> Sent: March 1, 2014 3:27 PM
> To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
> Subject: Stus-List Help understanding composites
> 
> I'm but an accountant not an engineer. Help me understand this stuff..
> 
> So if I use a 1990 34+ as the baseline, the hull was a composite of vinyl
> resin, presumably glass matt and chopped strand, balsa core and Kevlar.
> 
> Now fast forward to 2000 and my early 121. The glass Matt has been replaced
> by E glass, balsa has been replaced by core cell, glass strand remains to
> add bulk and the Kevlar remains. Presumably this provides a lighter hull as
> the e glass is stronger than matt, core cell is lighter than balsa and
> requires less resin and the Kevlar remains the same.
> 
> Fast forward another 10 years and we have epoxy, reinforced with carbon
> which does the job of Kevlar, matt, e glass and strand. The core cell
> remains.
> 
> Am I even close?
> 
> John
> 
> 
> ___
> This List is provided by the C&C Photo Album
> http://www.cncphotoalbum.com
> CnC-List@cnc-list.com
> 
> 
> ___
> This List is provided by the C&C Photo Album
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> CnC-List@cnc-list.com

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Re: Stus-List Help understanding composites

[j...@svpaws.net]

Got it - thanks

John


Sent from my iPad

> On Mar 1, 2014, at 8:54 PM, Graham Collins  wrote:
> 
> Vacuum bagging clamps everything and draws out air bubbles, gives a more 
> consistent result with less resin.  Resin infusion is vacuum bagging on 
> steroids, you pull a vacuum and you inject resin at pre-set points, the resin 
> is drawn in with great control - so even less material, better results.  
> Vacuum bagging can be done by an amateur, I have done it a few times, whereas 
> resin infusion is the domain of the pro.
> 
> Ideally you want enough resin to bond the layers together but just that 
> amount.  
> Graham Collins
> Secret Plans
> C&C 35-III #11
> On 2014-03-01 9:19 PM, j...@svpaws.net wrote:
>> So vacuum bagging essentially draws the resin into the substrate as opposed 
>> to just letting it sink in?  I could see how that would be more precise and 
>> require less resin.  On that note, resin adds minimal strength but bonds ?
>> 
>> All questions.
>> 
>> John
>> 
>> 
>> Sent from my iPad
>> 
>> On Mar 1, 2014, at 3:25 PM, Chuck S  wrote:
>> 
>>> You sound on track, though you should start with a solid fiberglass hull 
>>> like the 1961 Alberg 35.  Surprised the spec shows only 12600# displacement.
>>>   
>>> Checking the brochure info, the 1990 34+ used "biaxial fiberglass/kevlar 
>>> hybrid laminate with (waterproof) Hydrex isothalic NGP resin w aircraft 
>>> quality balsa core.  The deck is similar adding coremat in winch areas.
>>> 
>>> At some time "vacuum bagging" reduced the amount of excess resin in the 
>>> whole build process and that was the heaviest element.  Before that, 
>>> engineers were guessing at the total weight.  Now it is more exact. 
>>> 
>>> My understanding of Kevlar is that it is stronger but still flexes.  A 
>>> buddy of mine made a wakeboard of Kevlar and it would flex more than 
>>> fiberglass, and he could smack it with a hammer and just bounced off.  
>>> Carbon is much more expensive, not as strong as Kevlar, but much, much, 
>>> lighter and stiffer.   Early carbon would shatter and splinter when 
>>> stressed.  They improved the formula somehow and re-enforce stress areas 
>>> more so it is less brittle than before.  They put carbon in sails now.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Chuck
>>> Resolute
>>> 1990 C&C 34R
>>> Atlantic City, NJ
>>> From: j...@svpaws.net
>>> To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
>>> Sent: Saturday, March 1, 2014 2:27:15 PM
>>> Subject: Stus-List Help understanding composites
>>> 
>>> I'm but an accountant not an engineer. Help me understand this stuff..
>>> 
>>> So if I use a 1990 34+ as the baseline, the hull was a composite of vinyl 
>>> resin, presumably glass matt and chopped strand, balsa core and Kevlar.
>>> 
>>> Now fast forward to 2000 and my early 121.  The glass Matt has been 
>>> replaced by E glass, balsa has been replaced by core cell, glass strand 
>>> remains to add bulk and the Kevlar remains.  Presumably this provides a 
>>> lighter hull as the e glass is stronger than matt, core cell is lighter 
>>> than balsa and requires less resin and the Kevlar remains the same.
>>> 
>>> Fast forward another 10 years and we have epoxy, reinforced with carbon 
>>> which does the job of Kevlar, matt, e glass and strand.  The core cell 
>>> remains.
>>> 
>>> Am I even close?
>>> 
>>> John
>>> 
>>> 
>>> ___
>>> This List is provided by the C&C Photo Album
>>> http://www.cncphotoalbum.com
>>> CnC-List@cnc-list.com
>>> ___
>>> This List is provided by the C&C Photo Album
>>> http://www.cncphotoalbum.com
>>> CnC-List@cnc-list.com
>> 
>> 
>> ___
>> This List is provided by the C&C Photo Album
>> http://www.cncphotoalbum.com
>> CnC-List@cnc-list.com
> 
> ___
> This List is provided by the C&C Photo Album
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Re: Stus-List Help understanding composites

[Graham Collins]

Vacuum bagging clamps everything and draws out air bubbles, gives a more 
consistent result with less resin.  Resin infusion is vacuum bagging on 
steroids, you pull a vacuum and you inject resin at pre-set points, the 
resin is drawn in with great control - so even less material, better 
results. Vacuum bagging can be done by an amateur, I have done it a few 
times, whereas resin infusion is the domain of the pro.


Ideally you want enough resin to bond the layers together but just that 
amount.


Graham Collins
Secret Plans
C&C 35-III #11

On 2014-03-01 9:19 PM, j...@svpaws.net wrote:
So vacuum bagging essentially draws the resin into the substrate as 
opposed to just letting it sink in?  I could see how that would be 
more precise and require less resin.  On that note, resin adds minimal 
strength but bonds ?


All questions.

John


Sent from my iPad

On Mar 1, 2014, at 3:25 PM, Chuck S > wrote:


You sound on track, though you should start with a solid fiberglass 
hull like the 1961 Alberg 35.  Surprised the spec shows only 12600# 
displacement.


Checking the brochure info, the 1990 34+ used "biaxial 
fiberglass/kevlar hybrid laminate with (waterproof) Hydrex isothalic 
NGP resin w aircraft quality balsa core.  The deck is similar adding 
coremat in winch areas.


At some time "vacuum bagging" reduced the amount of excess resin in 
the whole build process and that was the heaviest element.  Before 
that, engineers were guessing at the total weight.  Now it is more 
exact.


My understanding of Kevlar is that it is stronger but still flexes.  
A buddy of mine made a wakeboard of Kevlar and it would flex more 
than fiberglass, and he could smack it with a hammer and just bounced 
off.  Carbon is much more expensive, not as strong as Kevlar, but 
much, much, lighter and stiffer.   Early carbon would shatter and 
splinter when stressed.  They improved the formula somehow and 
re-enforce stress areas more so it is less brittle than before.  They 
put carbon in sails now.



Chuck
Resolute
1990 C&C 34R
Atlantic City, NJ

*From: *j...@svpaws.net 
*To: *cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
*Sent: *Saturday, March 1, 2014 2:27:15 PM
*Subject: *Stus-List Help understanding composites

I'm but an accountant not an engineer. Help me understand this stuff..

So if I use a 1990 34+ as the baseline, the hull was a composite of 
vinyl resin, presumably glass matt and chopped strand, balsa core and 
Kevlar.


Now fast forward to 2000 and my early 121.  The glass Matt has been 
replaced by E glass, balsa has been replaced by core cell, glass 
strand remains to add bulk and the Kevlar remains.  Presumably this 
provides a lighter hull as the e glass is stronger than matt, core 
cell is lighter than balsa and requires less resin and the Kevlar 
remains the same.


Fast forward another 10 years and we have epoxy, reinforced with 
carbon which does the job of Kevlar, matt, e glass and strand.  The 
core cell remains.


Am I even close?

John


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Re: Stus-List Help understanding composites

[Ken Heaton]

As I understand it, yes.  The resin has strength but yields more that the
reinforcement.  When a load is applied to a composite, the resin stretches
enough (while the reinforcement stretched less for the same load) to shift
all the load onto the glass or carbon or kevlar.  The resin just holds it
all together.

Ken H.


On 1 March 2014 21:19, j...@svpaws.net  wrote:

> So vacuum bagging essentially draws the resin into the substrate as
> opposed to just letting it sink in?  I could see how that would be more
> precise and require less resin.  On that note, resin adds minimal strength
> but bonds ?
>
> All questions.
>
> John
>
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Mar 1, 2014, at 3:25 PM, Chuck S  wrote:
>
> You sound on track, though you should start with a solid fiberglass hull
> like the 1961 Alberg 35.  Surprised the spec shows only 12600# displacement.
>
> Checking the brochure info, the 1990 34+ used "biaxial fiberglass/kevlar
> hybrid laminate with (waterproof) Hydrex isothalic NGP resin w aircraft
> quality balsa core.  The deck is similar adding coremat in winch areas.
>
> At some time "vacuum bagging" reduced the amount of excess resin in the
> whole build process and that was the heaviest element.  Before that,
> engineers were guessing at the total weight.  Now it is more exact.
>
> My understanding of Kevlar is that it is stronger but still flexes.  A
> buddy of mine made a wakeboard of Kevlar and it would flex more than
> fiberglass, and he could smack it with a hammer and just bounced off.
> Carbon is much more expensive, not as strong as Kevlar, but much, much,
> lighter and stiffer.   Early carbon would shatter and splinter when
> stressed.  They improved the formula somehow and re-enforce stress areas
> more so it is less brittle than before.  They put carbon in sails now.
>
>
> Chuck
> Resolute
> 1990 C&C 34R
> Atlantic City, NJ
> --
> *From: *j...@svpaws.net
> *To: *cnc-list@cnc-list.com
> *Sent: *Saturday, March 1, 2014 2:27:15 PM
> *Subject: *Stus-List Help understanding composites
>
> I'm but an accountant not an engineer. Help me understand this stuff..
>
> So if I use a 1990 34+ as the baseline, the hull was a composite of vinyl
> resin, presumably glass matt and chopped strand, balsa core and Kevlar.
>
> Now fast forward to 2000 and my early 121.  The glass Matt has been
> replaced by E glass, balsa has been replaced by core cell, glass strand
> remains to add bulk and the Kevlar remains.  Presumably this provides a
> lighter hull as the e glass is stronger than matt, core cell is lighter
> than balsa and requires less resin and the Kevlar remains the same.
>
> Fast forward another 10 years and we have epoxy, reinforced with carbon
> which does the job of Kevlar, matt, e glass and strand.  The core cell
> remains.
>
> Am I even close?
>
> John
>
>
> ___
> This List is provided by the C&C Photo Album
> http://www.cncphotoalbum.com
> CnC-List@cnc-list.com
>
> ___
> This List is provided by the C&C Photo Album
> http://www.cncphotoalbum.com
> CnC-List@cnc-list.com
>
>
> ___
> This List is provided by the C&C Photo Album
> http://www.cncphotoalbum.com
> CnC-List@cnc-list.com
>
>
___
This List is provided by the C&C Photo Album
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Re: Stus-List Help understanding composites

[j...@svpaws.net]

yes, clearly balsa would rot when wet where as the core cell would not.  
Presumably the latter would just delaminate much like a blister?  Is the 
advantage of the foam core that any moisture intrusion would be more localized? 
 Is there a weight and/or cost benefit?  I would guess the balsa would have 
greater insulating properties however the foam would add some strength?

So much knowledge on this list

John


Sent from my iPad

> On Mar 1, 2014, at 4:29 PM, "dwight"  wrote:
> 
> Balsa core rots when it gets wet but it is quite strong on end if
> ebcapsutaed but a solid surface like a several layers of glass matt in cured
> polyester or other resin...aligned E glass fibers used with knowledge of
> where the stresses are highest offer more tensile strength than chopped
> strand and consequently less are required so lighter weight construction can
> result and have the same or better strength.  Kevlar fibers have very high
> tensile strength and used as Kevlar matt in a resin laminate has good
> resistance to impact damage and is also very lightweight, carbon fibers  are
> very lightweight and have high tensile strength as well, but the best
> results are achieved with proper alignment of the fibers corresponding to
> the direction of highest stress
> Just a guess
> -Original Message-
> From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of
> j...@svpaws.net
> Sent: March 1, 2014 3:27 PM
> To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
> Subject: Stus-List Help understanding composites
> 
> I'm but an accountant not an engineer. Help me understand this stuff..
> 
> So if I use a 1990 34+ as the baseline, the hull was a composite of vinyl
> resin, presumably glass matt and chopped strand, balsa core and Kevlar.
> 
> Now fast forward to 2000 and my early 121.  The glass Matt has been replaced
> by E glass, balsa has been replaced by core cell, glass strand remains to
> add bulk and the Kevlar remains.  Presumably this provides a lighter hull as
> the e glass is stronger than matt, core cell is lighter than balsa and
> requires less resin and the Kevlar remains the same.
> 
> Fast forward another 10 years and we have epoxy, reinforced with carbon
> which does the job of Kevlar, matt, e glass and strand.  The core cell
> remains.
> 
> Am I even close?
> 
> John
> 
> 
> ___
> This List is provided by the C&C Photo Album
> http://www.cncphotoalbum.com
> CnC-List@cnc-list.com
> 
> 
> ___
> This List is provided by the C&C Photo Album
> http://www.cncphotoalbum.com
> CnC-List@cnc-list.com

___
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Re: Stus-List Help understanding composites

[j...@svpaws.net]

So vacuum bagging essentially draws the resin into the substrate as opposed to 
just letting it sink in?  I could see how that would be more precise and 
require less resin.  On that note, resin adds minimal strength but bonds ?

All questions.

John


Sent from my iPad

> On Mar 1, 2014, at 3:25 PM, Chuck S  wrote:
> 
> You sound on track, though you should start with a solid fiberglass hull like 
> the 1961 Alberg 35.  Surprised the spec shows only 12600# displacement.
>   
> Checking the brochure info, the 1990 34+ used "biaxial fiberglass/kevlar 
> hybrid laminate with (waterproof) Hydrex isothalic NGP resin w aircraft 
> quality balsa core.  The deck is similar adding coremat in winch areas.
> 
> At some time "vacuum bagging" reduced the amount of excess resin in the whole 
> build process and that was the heaviest element.  Before that, engineers were 
> guessing at the total weight.  Now it is more exact. 
> 
> My understanding of Kevlar is that it is stronger but still flexes.  A buddy 
> of mine made a wakeboard of Kevlar and it would flex more than fiberglass, 
> and he could smack it with a hammer and just bounced off.  Carbon is much 
> more expensive, not as strong as Kevlar, but much, much, lighter and stiffer. 
>   Early carbon would shatter and splinter when stressed.  They improved the 
> formula somehow and re-enforce stress areas more so it is less brittle than 
> before.  They put carbon in sails now.
> 
> 
> Chuck
> Resolute
> 1990 C&C 34R
> Atlantic City, NJ
> From: j...@svpaws.net
> To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
> Sent: Saturday, March 1, 2014 2:27:15 PM
> Subject: Stus-List Help understanding composites
> 
> I'm but an accountant not an engineer. Help me understand this stuff..
> 
> So if I use a 1990 34+ as the baseline, the hull was a composite of vinyl 
> resin, presumably glass matt and chopped strand, balsa core and Kevlar.
> 
> Now fast forward to 2000 and my early 121.  The glass Matt has been replaced 
> by E glass, balsa has been replaced by core cell, glass strand remains to add 
> bulk and the Kevlar remains.  Presumably this provides a lighter hull as the 
> e glass is stronger than matt, core cell is lighter than balsa and requires 
> less resin and the Kevlar remains the same.
> 
> Fast forward another 10 years and we have epoxy, reinforced with carbon which 
> does the job of Kevlar, matt, e glass and strand.  The core cell remains.
> 
> Am I even close?
> 
> John
> 
> 
> ___
> This List is provided by the C&C Photo Album
> http://www.cncphotoalbum.com
> CnC-List@cnc-list.com
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Re: Stus-List Help understanding composites

[j...@svpaws.net]

Thanks - was confusing the terms mat and roving.  Wish the book was still in 
print - will need to find a copy.

John


Sent from my iPad

> On Mar 1, 2014, at 2:53 PM, Jim Watts  wrote:
> 
> Glass mat and chopped strand are the same thing...CSM. The 34+ was probably a 
> layup of CSM, woven roving, and kevlar in a vinylester matrix with balsa 
> core. E glass is the same basis as woven roving, just a different weave. 
> Cloth is a lighter version of roving. The woven roving in the 34+ and the 121 
> would both be e-glass, although the later boat would likely have some biaxial 
> or unidirectional glass in places for better engineered strength. For more 
> information, have a look at this...http://www.marinecomposites.com/
> 
>  
> 
> Jim Watts
> Paradigm Shift
> C&C 35 Mk III
> Victoria, BC
> 
> 
>> On 1 March 2014 11:27, j...@svpaws.net  wrote:
>> I'm but an accountant not an engineer. Help me understand this stuff..
>> 
>> So if I use a 1990 34+ as the baseline, the hull was a composite of vinyl 
>> resin, presumably glass matt and chopped strand, balsa core and Kevlar.
>> 
>> Now fast forward to 2000 and my early 121.  The glass Matt has been replaced 
>> by E glass, balsa has been replaced by core cell, glass strand remains to 
>> add bulk and the Kevlar remains.  Presumably this provides a lighter hull as 
>> the e glass is stronger than matt, core cell is lighter than balsa and 
>> requires less resin and the Kevlar remains the same.
>> 
>> Fast forward another 10 years and we have epoxy, reinforced with carbon 
>> which does the job of Kevlar, matt, e glass and strand.  The core cell 
>> remains.
>> 
>> Am I even close?
>> 
>> John
>> 
>> 
>> ___
>> This List is provided by the C&C Photo Album
>> http://www.cncphotoalbum.com
>> CnC-List@cnc-list.com
> 
> ___
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> http://www.cncphotoalbum.com
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Re: Stus-List Help understanding composites

[Ken Heaton]

Oops, make that 1.5 oz where ever I said 1 oz.

I think the changes in materials over the years makes less of a difference
that what Graham said, "From hand layup, to vacuum bagging, to resin
infusion and/or pre-preg."  Reducing the amount of resin using
these techniques results in a hull that is just as strong yet lighter.

Ken H.


On 1 March 2014 20:20, Ken Heaton  wrote:

> The schedule for the 1990 37+
>
> Below the waterline the layup was one layer 1 oz. chop, one layer 1 oz.
> mat and one layer of C77K/200 Kevlar Fabmat (a blend of fibreglass and
> kevlar 49) outside the balsa and one layer of C72K/100 Kevlar Fabmat
> inside.  This Fabmat is much heavier than the 1 oz. chop and 1 oz. mat at
> about 2.47 oz. for the C72K/100 and 4.94 oz. for the C77K/200.  This was
> over 10 oz. per sq. ft. of reinforcing material not counting the resin.
>
> The layup was much heavier at the turn of the bilge across the (almost)
> flat bottom of the hull to the keel sump as an additional two layers of
> C77/200 Kevlar Fabmat were added and further, in the keel sump, the balsa
> was replaced with two layers of Compositex.  This was over 20 oz. per sq.
> ft. of reinforcing material not counting the resin.
>
> Ken H.
>
>
> On 1 March 2014 15:27, j...@svpaws.net  wrote:
>
>> I'm but an accountant not an engineer. Help me understand this stuff..
>>
>> So if I use a 1990 34+ as the baseline, the hull was a composite of vinyl
>> resin, presumably glass matt and chopped strand, balsa core and Kevlar.
>>
>> Now fast forward to 2000 and my early 121.  The glass Matt has been
>> replaced by E glass, balsa has been replaced by core cell, glass strand
>> remains to add bulk and the Kevlar remains.  Presumably this provides a
>> lighter hull as the e glass is stronger than matt, core cell is lighter
>> than balsa and requires less resin and the Kevlar remains the same.
>>
>> Fast forward another 10 years and we have epoxy, reinforced with carbon
>> which does the job of Kevlar, matt, e glass and strand.  The core cell
>> remains.
>>
>> Am I even close?
>>
>> John
>>
>>
>> ___
>> This List is provided by the C&C Photo Album
>> http://www.cncphotoalbum.com
>> CnC-List@cnc-list.com
>>
>
>
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Re: Stus-List Help understanding composites

[Ken Heaton]

The schedule for the 1990 37+

Below the waterline the layup was one layer 1 oz. chop, one layer 1 oz. mat
and one layer of C77K/200 Kevlar Fabmat (a blend of fibreglass and kevlar
49) outside the balsa and one layer of C72K/100 Kevlar Fabmat inside.  This
Fabmat is much heavier than the 1 oz. chop and 1 oz. mat at about 2.47 oz.
for the C72K/100 and 4.94 oz. for the C77K/200.  This was over 10 oz. per
sq. ft. of reinforcing material not counting the resin.

The layup was much heavier at the turn of the bilge across the (almost)
flat bottom of the hull to the keel sump as an additional two layers of
C77/200 Kevlar Fabmat were added and further, in the keel sump, the balsa
was replaced with two layers of Compositex.  This was over 20 oz. per sq.
ft. of reinforcing material not counting the resin.

Ken H.


On 1 March 2014 15:27, j...@svpaws.net  wrote:

> I'm but an accountant not an engineer. Help me understand this stuff..
>
> So if I use a 1990 34+ as the baseline, the hull was a composite of vinyl
> resin, presumably glass matt and chopped strand, balsa core and Kevlar.
>
> Now fast forward to 2000 and my early 121.  The glass Matt has been
> replaced by E glass, balsa has been replaced by core cell, glass strand
> remains to add bulk and the Kevlar remains.  Presumably this provides a
> lighter hull as the e glass is stronger than matt, core cell is lighter
> than balsa and requires less resin and the Kevlar remains the same.
>
> Fast forward another 10 years and we have epoxy, reinforced with carbon
> which does the job of Kevlar, matt, e glass and strand.  The core cell
> remains.
>
> Am I even close?
>
> John
>
>
> ___
> This List is provided by the C&C Photo Album
> http://www.cncphotoalbum.com
> CnC-List@cnc-list.com
>
___
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Re: Stus-List Help understanding composites

[Graham Collins]

From hand layup, to vacuum bagging, to resin infusion and/or pre-preg.

Graham Collins
Secret Plans
C&C 35-III #11

On 2014-03-01 4:25 PM, Chuck S wrote:
You sound on track, though you should start with a solid fiberglass 
hull like the 1961 Alberg 35.  Surprised the spec shows only 12600# 
displacement.


Checking the brochure info, the 1990 34+ used "biaxial 
fiberglass/kevlar hybrid laminate with (waterproof) Hydrex isothalic 
NGP resin w aircraft quality balsa core.  The deck is similar adding 
coremat in winch areas.


At some time "vacuum bagging" reduced the amount of excess resin in 
the whole build process and that was the heaviest element. Before 
that, engineers were guessing at the total weight.  Now it is more exact.


My understanding of Kevlar is that it is stronger but still flexes.  A 
buddy of mine made a wakeboard of Kevlar and it would flex more than 
fiberglass, and he could smack it with a hammer and just bounced off.  
Carbon is much more expensive, not as strong as Kevlar, but much, 
much, lighter and stiffer.   Early carbon would shatter and splinter 
when stressed.  They improved the formula somehow and re-enforce 
stress areas more so it is less brittle than before.  They put carbon 
in sails now.



Chuck
Resolute
1990 C&C 34R
Atlantic City, NJ

*From: *j...@svpaws.net
*To: *cnc-list@cnc-list.com
*Sent: *Saturday, March 1, 2014 2:27:15 PM
*Subject: *Stus-List Help understanding composites

I'm but an accountant not an engineer. Help me understand this stuff..

So if I use a 1990 34+ as the baseline, the hull was a composite of 
vinyl resin, presumably glass matt and chopped strand, balsa core and 
Kevlar.


Now fast forward to 2000 and my early 121.  The glass Matt has been 
replaced by E glass, balsa has been replaced by core cell, glass 
strand remains to add bulk and the Kevlar remains.  Presumably this 
provides a lighter hull as the e glass is stronger than matt, core 
cell is lighter than balsa and requires less resin and the Kevlar 
remains the same.


Fast forward another 10 years and we have epoxy, reinforced with 
carbon which does the job of Kevlar, matt, e glass and strand.  The 
core cell remains.


Am I even close?

John


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Re: Stus-List Help understanding composites

[dwight]

Balsa core rots when it gets wet but it is quite strong on end if
ebcapsutaed but a solid surface like a several layers of glass matt in cured
polyester or other resin...aligned E glass fibers used with knowledge of
where the stresses are highest offer more tensile strength than chopped
strand and consequently less are required so lighter weight construction can
result and have the same or better strength.  Kevlar fibers have very high
tensile strength and used as Kevlar matt in a resin laminate has good
resistance to impact damage and is also very lightweight, carbon fibers  are
very lightweight and have high tensile strength as well, but the best
results are achieved with proper alignment of the fibers corresponding to
the direction of highest stress
Just a guess
-Original Message-
From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of
j...@svpaws.net
Sent: March 1, 2014 3:27 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Subject: Stus-List Help understanding composites

I'm but an accountant not an engineer. Help me understand this stuff..

So if I use a 1990 34+ as the baseline, the hull was a composite of vinyl
resin, presumably glass matt and chopped strand, balsa core and Kevlar.

Now fast forward to 2000 and my early 121.  The glass Matt has been replaced
by E glass, balsa has been replaced by core cell, glass strand remains to
add bulk and the Kevlar remains.  Presumably this provides a lighter hull as
the e glass is stronger than matt, core cell is lighter than balsa and
requires less resin and the Kevlar remains the same.

Fast forward another 10 years and we have epoxy, reinforced with carbon
which does the job of Kevlar, matt, e glass and strand.  The core cell
remains.

Am I even close?

John


___
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Re: Stus-List Exhaust Riser Replacement

[dwight]

In salt water it can stress crack fairly easily and then you will have salt
water spewing out all over your engine and engine space.at least that is
what happened on my 27.stainless is well worth the extra cost but it too
will eventually fail, nothing lasts forever and for whoever got 18 years out
of black pipe I say that was good luck and maybe fresh water

 

  _  

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Gary
Nylander
Sent: March 1, 2014 1:26 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Subject: Re: Stus-List Exhaust Riser Replacement

 

Hey folks, black pipe works quite well.

 

Gary

- Original Message - 

From: dwight   

To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com 

Sent: Saturday, March 01, 2014 4:48 AM

Subject: Re: Stus-List Exhaust Riser Replacement

 

Bob

 

I could not find out what if any surface pre treatment is required on the
metal parts before you apply this paint, only the cure process.  I wonder
where it is used on re-entry vehicles having worked for years studying fire
barrier coating materials like intumescent paints; usually an "R" factor is
involved too.  What did you do to the metal before applying it?

 

What is the cost of that paint?  Did you check on the cost of stainless
steel pipe and elbows?  I don't remember exactly but the cost of the
required 3, 4 and 5 inch sections of treaded ss pipe and elbows was not that
high when I did a replacement 10-12 years ago, I think like about $100 for
all the pieces needed to go from the manifold back, the heat blanket I used
was free to me, and I expect with this paint that you will still need to
wrap the system

 


  _  


From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of bobmor99
.
Sent: March 1, 2014 12:47 AM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Subject: Re: Stus-List Exhaust Riser Replacement

 

An update to my continued contrarian way...

 

I've painted the galvanized pieces (3 coats, inside and out) with some space
age, high-temperature paint. It's used on re-entry vehicles.  :-)

 

http://www.vhtpaint.com/products/flameproof/

 

There's a curing process involved; 

30 minutes @ 250F, 

30 minute cool off, 

30 minutes @ 450F, 

30 minute cool off, 

and finally, 

30 minutes @ 600F. 

 

I've completed the first two heats. My oven only goes to 550F. (Kinda like
my amp only goes to 11/2, not 12/2.) Tomorrow morning I'll turn on the
broiler, move the oven rack to the top and bake everything again for 30
minutes. I don't want to blow up my kitchen at night. The first two bakes
stunk it up.  

 

So yes, my cheapitude has lead to new experiences.

 

I've researched the galvanized/zinc flu warning and concluded that A4
exhaust temperatures are below what's needed to create zinc oxide fumes.
(That's a welding/cutting thing.) Besides, in this case the zinc will be
sealed by coats of high-temp paint.

 

So, I'm going forward with my cheapo exhaust riser replacement and will
report back at 5 year intervals. 

 

Bob M

Ox 33-1

Jax, FL

 

 

 


  _  


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Re: Stus-List Help understanding composites

[Chuck S]

You sound on track, though you should start with a solid fiberglass hull like 
the 1961 Alberg 35. Surprised the spec shows only 12600# displacement. 

Checking the brochure info, the 1990 34+ used "biaxial fiberglass/kevlar hybrid 
laminate with (waterproof) Hydrex isothalic NGP resin w aircraft quality balsa 
core. The deck is similar adding coremat in winch areas. 

At some time "vacuum bagging" reduced the amount of excess resin in the whole 
build process and that was the heaviest element. Before that, engineers were 
guessing at the total weight. Now it is more exact. 

My understanding of Kevlar is that it is stronger but still flexes. A buddy of 
mine made a wakeboard of Kevlar and it would flex more than fiberglass, and he 
could smack it with a hammer and just bounced off. Carbon is much more 
expensive, not as strong as Kevlar, but much, much, lighter and stiffer. Early 
carbon would shatter and splinter when stressed. They improved the formula 
somehow and re-enforce stress areas more so it is less brittle than before. 
They put carbon in sails now. 



Chuck 
Resolute 
1990 C&C 34R 
Atlantic City, NJ 
- Original Message -
From: j...@svpaws.net 
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
Sent: Saturday, March 1, 2014 2:27:15 PM 
Subject: Stus-List Help understanding composites 

I'm but an accountant not an engineer. Help me understand this stuff.. 

So if I use a 1990 34+ as the baseline, the hull was a composite of vinyl 
resin, presumably glass matt and chopped strand, balsa core and Kevlar. 

Now fast forward to 2000 and my early 121. The glass Matt has been replaced by 
E glass, balsa has been replaced by core cell, glass strand remains to add bulk 
and the Kevlar remains. Presumably this provides a lighter hull as the e glass 
is stronger than matt, core cell is lighter than balsa and requires less resin 
and the Kevlar remains the same. 

Fast forward another 10 years and we have epoxy, reinforced with carbon which 
does the job of Kevlar, matt, e glass and strand. The core cell remains. 

Am I even close? 

John 


___ 
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http://www.cncphotoalbum.com 
CnC-List@cnc-list.com 
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CnC-List@cnc-list.com

Re: Stus-List Help understanding composites

[Jim Watts]

Glass mat and chopped strand are the same thing...CSM. The 34+ was probably
a layup of CSM, woven roving, and kevlar in a vinylester matrix with balsa
core. E glass is the same basis as woven roving, just a different weave.
Cloth is a lighter version of roving. The woven roving in the 34+ and the
121 would both be e-glass, although the later boat would likely have some
biaxial or unidirectional glass in places for better engineered strength.
For more information, have a look at this...http://www.marinecomposites.com/



Jim Watts
Paradigm Shift
C&C 35 Mk III
Victoria, BC


On 1 March 2014 11:27, j...@svpaws.net  wrote:

> I'm but an accountant not an engineer. Help me understand this stuff..
>
> So if I use a 1990 34+ as the baseline, the hull was a composite of vinyl
> resin, presumably glass matt and chopped strand, balsa core and Kevlar.
>
> Now fast forward to 2000 and my early 121.  The glass Matt has been
> replaced by E glass, balsa has been replaced by core cell, glass strand
> remains to add bulk and the Kevlar remains.  Presumably this provides a
> lighter hull as the e glass is stronger than matt, core cell is lighter
> than balsa and requires less resin and the Kevlar remains the same.
>
> Fast forward another 10 years and we have epoxy, reinforced with carbon
> which does the job of Kevlar, matt, e glass and strand.  The core cell
> remains.
>
> Am I even close?
>
> John
>
>
> ___
> This List is provided by the C&C Photo Album
> http://www.cncphotoalbum.com
> CnC-List@cnc-list.com
>
___
This List is provided by the C&C Photo Album
http://www.cncphotoalbum.com
CnC-List@cnc-list.com

Stus-List Help understanding composites

[j...@svpaws.net]

I'm but an accountant not an engineer. Help me understand this stuff..

So if I use a 1990 34+ as the baseline, the hull was a composite of vinyl 
resin, presumably glass matt and chopped strand, balsa core and Kevlar.

Now fast forward to 2000 and my early 121.  The glass Matt has been replaced by 
E glass, balsa has been replaced by core cell, glass strand remains to add bulk 
and the Kevlar remains.  Presumably this provides a lighter hull as the e glass 
is stronger than matt, core cell is lighter than balsa and requires less resin 
and the Kevlar remains the same.

Fast forward another 10 years and we have epoxy, reinforced with carbon which 
does the job of Kevlar, matt, e glass and strand.  The core cell remains.

Am I even close?

John


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Re: Stus-List Help me win a free sail!

[Joel Aronson]

A Bene 36.7.

On Saturday, March 1, 2014, Rick Brass  wrote:

> So who won?
>
>
>
> *From:* CnC-List 
> [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com]
> *On Behalf Of *Joel Aronson
> *Sent:* Wednesday, February 26, 2014 11:04 AM
> *To:* 
> cnc-list@cnc-list.com
> *Subject:* Re: Stus-List Help me win a free sail!
>
>
>
> Here is the FB link:
> https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=730860123615384&set=a.614489011919163.1073741826.614298161938248&type=1&theater¬if_t=photo_comment
> .
>
>
>
> (it changed since early this morning!
>
>
>
> 1
>


-- 
Joel
301 541 8551
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Re: Stus-List Exhaust Riser Replacement

[Gary Nylander]

Hey folks, black pipe works quite well.

Gary
  - Original Message - 
  From: dwight 
  To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
  Sent: Saturday, March 01, 2014 4:48 AM
  Subject: Re: Stus-List Exhaust Riser Replacement


  Bob

   

  I could not find out what if any surface pre treatment is required on the 
metal parts before you apply this paint, only the cure process.  I wonder where 
it is used on re-entry vehicles having worked for years studying fire barrier 
coating materials like intumescent paints; usually an "R" factor is involved 
too.  What did you do to the metal before applying it?

   

  What is the cost of that paint?  Did you check on the cost of stainless steel 
pipe and elbows?  I don't remember exactly but the cost of the required 3, 4 
and 5 inch sections of treaded ss pipe and elbows was not that high when I did 
a replacement 10-12 years ago, I think like about $100 for all the pieces 
needed to go from the manifold back, the heat blanket I used was free to me, 
and I expect with this paint that you will still need to wrap the system

   


--

  From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of bobmor99 .
  Sent: March 1, 2014 12:47 AM
  To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
  Subject: Re: Stus-List Exhaust Riser Replacement

   

  An update to my continued contrarian way...

   

  I've painted the galvanized pieces (3 coats, inside and out) with some space 
age, high-temperature paint. It's used on re-entry vehicles.  :-)

   

  http://www.vhtpaint.com/products/flameproof/

   

  There's a curing process involved; 

  30 minutes @ 250F, 

  30 minute cool off, 

  30 minutes @ 450F, 

  30 minute cool off, 

  and finally, 

  30 minutes @ 600F. 

   

  I've completed the first two heats. My oven only goes to 550F. (Kinda like my 
amp only goes to 11/2, not 12/2.) Tomorrow morning I'll turn on the broiler, 
move the oven rack to the top and bake everything again for 30 minutes. I don't 
want to blow up my kitchen at night. The first two bakes stunk it up.  

   

  So yes, my cheapitude has lead to new experiences.

   

  I've researched the galvanized/zinc flu warning and concluded that A4 exhaust 
temperatures are below what's needed to create zinc oxide fumes. (That's a 
welding/cutting thing.) Besides, in this case the zinc will be sealed by coats 
of high-temp paint.

   

  So, I'm going forward with my cheapo exhaust riser replacement and will 
report back at 5 year intervals. 

   

  Bob M

  Ox 33-1

  Jax, FL

   

   

   



--


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Re: Stus-List Exhaust Riser Replacement

[Joe Della Barba]

At my Home Depot the black iron is next to the galvanizes pipe and is about the 
same price.

I can tell you galvanized pipe DOES stink up the boat with an A4. Been There 
Done That. I also would not want to be eating any food from the oven you used 
for your paint curing experiment! I am not even sure what the paint is going to 
do. The pipe gets wrapped in header-wrap on the outside and should not corrode 
from outside-in unless you have some kind of water leak spraying it. I can’t 
imagine the paint will stay in place on the inside. Could be wrong about that.

 

Joe Della Barba

Coquina

C&C 35 MK I

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Rick Brass
Sent: Saturday, March 01, 2014 9:24 AM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Subject: Re: Stus-List Exhaust Riser Replacement

 

I really do appreciate the sense of adventure and discovery in trying out new 
things for the boat.

 

But sometimes the tried and true alternatives are still a good choice.

 

A few years ago, a buddy and I helped an old guy at my club recondition and 
sell a Pearson 30 he was getting too old to sail by himself. Among other 
projects, we rebuilt the carb on the A4, installed a transistor ignition in 
place of the points, and rebuilt the exhaust system.

 

The black iron pipe that was OEM on the A4 had lasted about 30 years, about 12 
in salt water in LIS and 18 here in the brackish water in the Carolinas. Black 
iron was a little harder to find than galvanized pipe, but worth the investment 
in a couple of phone calls and turned out to be about the same cost.

 

 

Rick Brass

Washington, NC

 

 

 

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Chuck S
Sent: Saturday, March 01, 2014 8:22 AM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com  
Subject: Re: Stus-List Exhaust Riser Replacement

 

Bob,
Hope your life insurance is paid up.  That stink can't be good for you to 
breathe.  
Never knew anyone to paint the inside of a pipe.  Isn't there an A4 website 
that discussed this issue?

I like Dwight's idea to use stainless steel.  McMaster-Carr has fittings of 
every type in 304 or 316.

Below is a pipe threaded one end, assuming you will attach an exhaust hose.
size  SS  304 price   SS   316   price   
 


2 1/2"

9157K69  

$8.25

9110T48  

$11.18

 

Chuck
Resolute
1990 C&C 34R
Atlantic City, NJ

  _  

From: "bobmor99 ." mailto:bobmo...@gmail.com> >
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com  
Sent: Friday, February 28, 2014 11:47:20 PM
Subject: Re: Stus-List Exhaust Riser Replacement

An update to my continued contrarian way...

 

I've painted the galvanized pieces (3 coats, inside and out) with some space 
age, high-temperature paint. It's used on re-entry vehicles.  :-)

 

http://www.vhtpaint.com/products/flameproof/

 

There's a curing process involved; 

30 minutes @ 250F, 

30 minute cool off, 

30 minutes @ 450F, 

30 minute cool off, 

and finally, 

30 minutes @ 600F. 

 

I've completed the first two heats. My oven only goes to 550F. (Kinda like my 
amp only goes to 11/2, not 12/2.) Tomorrow morning I'll turn on the broiler, 
move the oven rack to the top and bake everything again for 30 minutes. I don't 
want to blow up my kitchen at night. The first two bakes stunk it up.  

 

So yes, my cheapitude has lead to new experiences.

 

I've researched the galvanized/zinc flu warning and concluded that A4 exhaust 
temperatures are below what's needed to create zinc oxide fumes. (That's a 
welding/cutting thing.) Besides, in this case the zinc will be sealed by coats 
of high-temp paint.

 

So, I'm going forward with my cheapo exhaust riser replacement and will report 
back at 5 year intervals. 

 

Bob M

Ox 33-1

Jax, FL

 

 

 


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Re: Stus-List Help me win a free sail!

[Rick Brass]

So who won?

 

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Joel
Aronson
Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2014 11:04 AM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Subject: Re: Stus-List Help me win a free sail!

 

Here is the FB link:

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=730860123615384&set=a.61448901191916
3.1073741826.614298161938248&type=1&theater¬if_t=photo_comment.

 

(it changed since early this morning!

 

1 

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Re: Stus-List Exhaust Riser Replacement

[Rick Brass]

I really do appreciate the sense of adventure and discovery in trying out new 
things for the boat.

 

But sometimes the tried and true alternatives are still a good choice.

 

A few years ago, a buddy and I helped an old guy at my club recondition and 
sell a Pearson 30 he was getting too old to sail by himself. Among other 
projects, we rebuilt the carb on the A4, installed a transistor ignition in 
place of the points, and rebuilt the exhaust system.

 

The black iron pipe that was OEM on the A4 had lasted about 30 years, about 12 
in salt water in LIS and 18 here in the brackish water in the Carolinas. Black 
iron was a little harder to find than galvanized pipe, but worth the investment 
in a couple of phone calls and turned out to be about the same cost.

 

 

Rick Brass

Washington, NC

 

 

 

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Chuck S
Sent: Saturday, March 01, 2014 8:22 AM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Subject: Re: Stus-List Exhaust Riser Replacement

 

Bob,
Hope your life insurance is paid up.  That stink can't be good for you to 
breathe.  
Never knew anyone to paint the inside of a pipe.  Isn't there an A4 website 
that discussed this issue?

I like Dwight's idea to use stainless steel.  McMaster-Carr has fittings of 
every type in 304 or 316.

Below is a pipe threaded one end, assuming you will attach an exhaust hose.
size  SS  304 price   SS   316   price   
 


2 1/2"

9157K69  

$8.25

9110T48  

$11.18

 

Chuck
Resolute
1990 C&C 34R
Atlantic City, NJ

  _  

From: "bobmor99 ." 
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Sent: Friday, February 28, 2014 11:47:20 PM
Subject: Re: Stus-List Exhaust Riser Replacement

An update to my continued contrarian way...

 

I've painted the galvanized pieces (3 coats, inside and out) with some space 
age, high-temperature paint. It's used on re-entry vehicles.  :-)

 

http://www.vhtpaint.com/products/flameproof/

 

There's a curing process involved; 

30 minutes @ 250F, 

30 minute cool off, 

30 minutes @ 450F, 

30 minute cool off, 

and finally, 

30 minutes @ 600F. 

 

I've completed the first two heats. My oven only goes to 550F. (Kinda like my 
amp only goes to 11/2, not 12/2.) Tomorrow morning I'll turn on the broiler, 
move the oven rack to the top and bake everything again for 30 minutes. I don't 
want to blow up my kitchen at night. The first two bakes stunk it up.  

 

So yes, my cheapitude has lead to new experiences.

 

I've researched the galvanized/zinc flu warning and concluded that A4 exhaust 
temperatures are below what's needed to create zinc oxide fumes. (That's a 
welding/cutting thing.) Besides, in this case the zinc will be sealed by coats 
of high-temp paint.

 

So, I'm going forward with my cheapo exhaust riser replacement and will report 
back at 5 year intervals. 

 

Bob M

Ox 33-1

Jax, FL

 

 

 


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Re: Stus-List Looking for a used Harken MkIII Unit 1 Reefer or parts for a MKII Unit 1

[Rick Brass]

Dennis, et al;

 

OK. I know I'm cheap and use a lot of less expensive alternatives to popular
gear. For example, all the hardware on both my boats, except stuff I've not
gotten around to replacing yet, is Garhauer not Harken. My anchor windlass
is Anchorlift (from Scandanavia) instead of Lewmar or Maxwell. My
refrigeration is a $450 icebox conversion kit from Norcold. And so on.

 

Anyway, I have Bamar roller furling. It was recommended by my rigger, who
had experience with them from working on the rigging of a European boat that
was making its second or third circumnavigation.

 

When we installed the furling, we replaced the rod headstay with dyform
wire.

 

Bamar uses a composite material like Torlon for the bearing tubes in each
joint of the extrusion. Their instructions specifically state that the
furler should not be installed on a rod headstay. According to them, dirt
that may become imbedded in the bearings can cut circular grooves in the
rod, which can become a stress riser and a source of failed headstay. A call
to the importer resulted in the explanation that the surface of the wire
reduces the chance that contamination will accumulate in the bearings. 

 

 

Rick Brass

Washington, NC

 

 

 

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Dennis
Cheuvront
Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2014 10:55 PM
To: CnClist
Subject: Re: Stus-List Looking for a used Harken MkIII Unit 1 Reefer or
parts for a MKII Unit 1

 

If you're lucky, you can save the forestay.  However, if there is any damage
or questionable spots, chunk it and buy a new one.  A new forestay should be
under $200.  It can be wire.  I'm not convinced that rod is justified for
the stays.  Shrouds, yes.

 

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Re: Stus-List Yanmar 2GM from C&C 32 available

[Chuck S]

Son of a gun. 


Chuck 
Resolute 
1990 C&C 34R 
Atlantic City, NJ 
- Original Message -
From: "Chris Price"  
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
Sent: Friday, February 28, 2014 10:26:09 PM 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Yanmar 2GM from C&C 32 available 



My son has a 40hp "Go Devil" that he uses on his 16' jon boat for duck hunting. 
He actually has jumped over sand bars with it. It'll push through the marsh at 
low tide in bare inches of water. Meanwhile, I'm puttering along in my 10' 
sneakbox with a 4 hp Yamaha. But I know where the channels are when he gets 
hung up! 



Chris Price 


- Original Message -

From: "Joe Della Barba"  
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
Sent: Friday, February 28, 2014 8:59:35 AM 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Yanmar 2GM from C&C 32 available 





Bangkok. Those things are used as water taxies IIRC. 

In North America I have seen them called something like “mud devils”. 




Joe Della Barba 

Coquina 



From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Russ & 
Melody 
Sent: Friday, February 28, 2014 1:16 AM 
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Yanmar 2GM from C&C 32 available 



Hey! 




Wasn't a few of these used in a James Bond 007 movie in the 70s? I think the 
scene was set in Indonesia or maybe Bangkok. 




Cheers, Russ 





At 08:00 PM 27/02/2014, you wrote: 




Mais, ma cher, votre bateau needs one of deez here motors. Wit' one of deez, 
you be able to bring yourself down the bayou most fast! 




< http://www.boghogmudmotors.com/ > 




or 




< http://sdb.alducks.com/?page_id=34 > 




Dennis C 
Touche' 35-1 #83 
Mandeville, LA 








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Re: Stus-List Exhaust Riser Replacement

[Chuck S]

Bob, 
Hope your life insurance is paid up. That stink can't be good for you to 
breathe. 
Never knew anyone to paint the inside of a pipe. Isn't there an A4 website that 
discussed this issue? 

I like Dwight's idea to use stainless steel. McMaster-Carr has fittings of 
every type in 304 or 316. 

Below is a pipe threaded one end, assuming you will attach an exhaust hose. 
size SS 304 price SS 316 price 

2 1/2 " 9157K69 $8.25   9110T48 $11.18 

Chuck 
Resolute 
1990 C&C 34R 
Atlantic City, NJ 
- Original Message -
From: "bobmor99 ."  
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
Sent: Friday, February 28, 2014 11:47:20 PM 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Exhaust Riser Replacement 


An update to my continued contrarian way... 


I've painted the galvanized pieces (3 coats, inside and out) with some space 
age, high-temperature paint. It's used on re-entry vehicles. :-) 


http://www.vhtpaint.com/products/flameproof/ 


There's a curing process involved; 
30 minutes @ 250F, 
30 minute cool off, 
30 minutes @ 450F, 
30 minute cool off, 
and finally, 
30 minutes @ 600F. 


I've completed the first two heats. My oven only goes to 550F. (Kinda like my 
amp only goes to 11/2, not 12/2.) Tomorrow morning I'll turn on the broiler, 
move the oven rack to the top and bake everything again for 30 minutes. I don't 
want to blow up my kitchen at night. The first two bakes stunk it up. 


So yes, my cheapitude has lead to new experiences. 


I've researched the galvanized/zinc flu warning and concluded that A4 exhaust 
temperatures are below what's needed to create zinc oxide fumes. (That's a 
welding/cutting thing.) Besides, in this case the zinc will be sealed by coats 
of high-temp paint. 


So, I'm going forward with my cheapo exhaust riser replacement and will report 
back at 5 year intervals. 


Bob M 
Ox 33-1 
Jax, FL 







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Re: Stus-List Exhaust Riser Replacement

[dwight]

Bob

 

I could not find out what if any surface pre treatment is required on the
metal parts before you apply this paint, only the cure process.  I wonder
where it is used on re-entry vehicles having worked for years studying fire
barrier coating materials like intumescent paints; usually an "R" factor is
involved too.  What did you do to the metal before applying it?

 

What is the cost of that paint?  Did you check on the cost of stainless
steel pipe and elbows?  I don't remember exactly but the cost of the
required 3, 4 and 5 inch sections of treaded ss pipe and elbows was not that
high when I did a replacement 10-12 years ago, I think like about $100 for
all the pieces needed to go from the manifold back, the heat blanket I used
was free to me, and I expect with this paint that you will still need to
wrap the system

 

  _  

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of bobmor99
.
Sent: March 1, 2014 12:47 AM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Subject: Re: Stus-List Exhaust Riser Replacement

 

An update to my continued contrarian way...

 

I've painted the galvanized pieces (3 coats, inside and out) with some space
age, high-temperature paint. It's used on re-entry vehicles.  :-)

 

http://www.vhtpaint.com/products/flameproof/

 

There's a curing process involved; 

30 minutes @ 250F, 

30 minute cool off, 

30 minutes @ 450F, 

30 minute cool off, 

and finally, 

30 minutes @ 600F. 

 

I've completed the first two heats. My oven only goes to 550F. (Kinda like
my amp only goes to 11/2, not 12/2.) Tomorrow morning I'll turn on the
broiler, move the oven rack to the top and bake everything again for 30
minutes. I don't want to blow up my kitchen at night. The first two bakes
stunk it up.  

 

So yes, my cheapitude has lead to new experiences.

 

I've researched the galvanized/zinc flu warning and concluded that A4
exhaust temperatures are below what's needed to create zinc oxide fumes.
(That's a welding/cutting thing.) Besides, in this case the zinc will be
sealed by coats of high-temp paint.

 

So, I'm going forward with my cheapo exhaust riser replacement and will
report back at 5 year intervals. 

 

Bob M

Ox 33-1

Jax, FL

 

 

 

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