Re: Stus-List Linear Auto Pilot install

[Bryan Colwell via CnC-List]

Brad,

I installed the Raymarine EV200 with type I linear drive on my 34+.  I
couldn't be happier with the results. Very powerful in all points of sail. Zero
feedback with the unit in standby. I sail solo 90% of the time and it would
be very difficult without it. The wireless remote is pretty handy too!

Bryan Colwell
Fourth Watch
1991 C&C 34+
Anacortes, WA

On Mon, Apr 20, 2020, 8:38 AM Bradley Lumgair via CnC-List <
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

> I’ve been crawling around below deck on our C&C 33/2 contemplating the
> installation of a below deck autopilot as well. My rudder post is 2.373 or
> roughly 2-3/8 diameter, appears to be solid stainless. My keyway extends
> down below the quadrant by about 4 inches or so, right where the arm needs
> to go, didn’t realize how lucky I was until I read through this post. So,
> to my question, what are you using for a drive unit? I’ve looked at the
> Octopus R/S online also considering a few others but curious as to what
> others have decided on.
> Thanks
> Brad
> Pulse
> C&C 33/2
> Lake Huron
> ___
>
> Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each
> and every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list -
> use PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
>
>
___

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Re: Stus-List Keel movement in C&C 24

[Dennis C. via CnC-List]

It isn't just a matter of a torque wrench.  It may require a torque
multiplier.  Most readily available torque wrenches won't do it.

Several on the list have done this and benefited by using a torque
multiplier.  Perhaps they could offer additional suggestions regarding
multipliers.  Something like this:

https://www.amazon.com/Neiko-20743A-Digital-Adapter-Foot-Pound/dp/B009GLITFW/ref=sr_1_19?dchild=1&keywords=Torque+Multiplier&qid=1587427046&s=hi&sr=1-19


The nuts must be backed off then torqued.  Most recommend torquing dry.  If
you lubricate them, reduce the torque spec 10%.

If the backing plates are mild steel, conventional wisdom suggests
replacing them with stainless.

Dennis C.
Touche' 35-1 #83
Mandeville, LA

On Mon, Apr 20, 2020 at 6:34 PM Chris Bennett via CnC-List <
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

> For anyone interested, the keel bolt nuts on the C&C 24 are 3/4 inch at
> the front of the keel followed by 3 nuts that are 1 1/8". I found the
> forward nut (the only one I had a socket for) to be barely more than hand
> tightened. According to specs I found on the C&C owners site this should be
> at 80 foot lbs and the others tightened to 250 foot pounds. I plan to buy a
> suitable socket extension and torque wrench tomorrow for the big nuts...
>
> Chris
>
> On Mon, 20 Apr 2020 at 09:28, Chris Bennett  wrote:
>
>> Hi Mike,
>>
>> Thanks for the suggestions. I will test the torque of the bolts later
>> today if my socket is deep enough to do so. If they have not been tightened
>> for 35 years (and the original long term owner assured me he had never done
>> so) then maybe this is the issue.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Chris
>>
> ___
>
> Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each
> and every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list -
> use PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
>
>
___

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Re: Stus-List Keel movement in C&C 24

[Chris Bennett via CnC-List]

For anyone interested, the keel bolt nuts on the C&C 24 are 3/4 inch at the
front of the keel followed by 3 nuts that are 1 1/8". I found the forward
nut (the only one I had a socket for) to be barely more than hand
tightened. According to specs I found on the C&C owners site this should be
at 80 foot lbs and the others tightened to 250 foot pounds. I plan to buy a
suitable socket extension and torque wrench tomorrow for the big nuts...

Chris

On Mon, 20 Apr 2020 at 09:28, Chris Bennett  wrote:

> Hi Mike,
>
> Thanks for the suggestions. I will test the torque of the bolts later
> today if my socket is deep enough to do so. If they have not been tightened
> for 35 years (and the original long term owner assured me he had never done
> so) then maybe this is the issue.
>
> Regards,
> Chris
>
___

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Stus-List Linear Auto Pilot install 37+/40

[Tom Buscaglia via CnC-List]

Thanks Chuck.  I had measured using a old style 
caliper and then reading it on the scale on my 
digital caliper which came out as 75mm.  But 
after your caution I decided to waits for a real 
micrometer to get the true(r) measurement.


I think that drilling the hole for the through 
bold will be a huge PITA as the short end of the 
arm is facing the transom and the vertical 
support we put in to reenforce the deck.  Also, 
there's not much room there.  Should be fun...


Tom B

At 06:46 AM 4/20/2020, you wrote:

Message: 2
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 08:11:17 -0400
From: Stus-List Linear Auto Pilot install 37+/40
To: 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Linear Auto Pilot install 37+/40
Message-ID: <01ec01d6170c$cc1ce360$6456aa20$@comcast.net>
Content-Type: text/plain;   charset="UTF-8"

Tom,
Thought I'd weigh in as a former Edsonite..  The 
most important thing to realize when installing 
the autopilot is that the clamping action of the 
arm and cap for the tiller arm is the primary 
form of attachment to the rudder post.  Edson 
makes the arm with a .002" clamping tolerance to 
the diameter of the rudder post.  The secondary 
or "failsafe" attachment is a key, through bolt, 
or set screws.  When you order your tiller arm, 
don't assume that C&C always used the same 
diameter stainless post for every boat and 
model.  It's important to get precise 
measurement of the post where you wish to attach 
the arm, preferably using a digital caliper to 
achieve the proper tolerance.  Measure the exact 
diameter of the post, and take several 
measurements as you rotate the caliper around 
the post at a variety of positions where the 
tiller arm will attach.  When Edson bores the 
arm to your specification, they'll insert a 
small piece of paper between the arm and 
cap.  Removing it will give the arm the proper 
undersized clamping tolerance needed for the arm 
to grab the post without slippage.  Again, the 
keyway or through bolt should prevent the arm 
from rotating ONLY if the clamping tolerance is 
compromised, as in a hard grounding, rudder stop 
failure, or other drastic event.


As you've found, if there's no accessible keyway 
cut in the post, the through bolt method is 
preferred if the post is hollow (typical 
with  SS posts) or set screws if the post is 
solid (usually with a bronze rudder 
post).  Getting the arm positioned to drill the 
post and tiller arm can be problematic, finding 
a drill bit long enough to get it in place and 
then drilling through the hard steel (thus the 
need for a carbide bit and some lubricating oil 
to prevent work hardening the bit) but avoid the 
temptation to "pre drill" the arm before 
installing on the post.  This is because the 
likelihood of you being able to match up the 
holes on the post with the holes on the arm are 
not great given the confined space you'll have 
to work with and the difficulty of keeping the drill level while you work.
The tiller arm has a very important plus side as 
it enables your autopilot to serve as an 
emergency tiller in the event of a steering 
system failure such as a fractured radial drive, 
cable breakage or idler failure.  Finally, make 
sure that the autopilot isn't set up as the 
rudder stop as damage to the autopilot can occur.

Good luck with the install and Edson is a good source for advice..
Chuck Gilchrest
S/V Half Magic
1983 35 Landfall
Padanaram, MA

>From: CnC-List  
On Behalf Of Tom Buscaglia via CnC-List

>Sent: Sunday, April 19, 2020 6:19 PM
 ...snip...
>... greatly appreciated.  If you want to 
support the list - use PayPal to send 
contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray


.¤º°`°º¤,¸¸,¤º°`°º¤¤º°`°º¤,¸¸,¤º°`°º¤.
Tom & Lynn Buscaglia
SV Alera
C&C 37+/40
Vashon Island WA
(206) 463-9200
www.sv-alera.com


___

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Re: Stus-List CnC-List Digest, Vol 171, Issue 66

[Tom Buscaglia via CnC-List]

Thanks Chuck.  I had measured using a old style 
caliper and then reading it on the scale on my 
digital caliper which came out as 75mm.  But 
after your caution I decided to waits for a real 
micrometer to get the true(r) measurement.


I think that drilling the hole for the through 
bold will be a huge PITA as the short end of the 
arm is facing the transom and the vertical 
support we put in to reenforce the deck.  Also, 
there's not much room there.  Should be fun...


Tom B

At 06:46 AM 4/20/2020, you wrote:

Message: 2
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 08:11:17 -0400
From: "Chuck Gilchrest" 
To: 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Linear Auto Pilot install 37+/40
Message-ID: <01ec01d6170c$cc1ce360$6456aa20$@comcast.net>
Content-Type: text/plain;   charset="UTF-8"

Tom,
Thought I'd weigh in as a former Edsonite..  The 
most important thing to realize when installing 
the autopilot is that the clamping action of the 
arm and cap for the tiller arm is the primary 
form of attachment to the rudder post.  Edson 
makes the arm with a .002" clamping tolerance to 
the diameter of the rudder post.  The secondary 
or "failsafe" attachment is a key, through bolt, 
or set screws.  When you order your tiller arm, 
don't assume that C&C always used the same 
diameter stainless post for every boat and 
model.  It's important to get precise 
measurement of the post where you wish to attach 
the arm, preferably using a digital caliper to 
achieve the proper tolerance.  Measure the exact 
diameter of the post, and take several 
measurements as you rotate the caliper around 
the post at a variety of positions where the 
tiller arm will attach.  When Edson bores the 
arm to your specification, they'll insert a 
small piece of paper between the arm and 
cap.  Removing it will give the arm the proper 
undersized clamping tolerance needed for the arm 
to grab the post without slippage.  Again, the 
keyway or through bolt should prevent the arm 
from rotating ONLY if the clamping tolerance is 
compromised, as in a hard grounding, rudder stop 
failure, or other drastic event.


As you've found, if there's no accessible keyway 
cut in the post, the through bolt method is 
preferred if the post is hollow (typical 
with  SS posts) or set screws if the post is 
solid (usually with a bronze rudder 
post).  Getting the arm positioned to drill the 
post and tiller arm can be problematic, finding 
a drill bit long enough to get it in place and 
then drilling through the hard steel (thus the 
need for a carbide bit and some lubricating oil 
to prevent work hardening the bit) but avoid the 
temptation to "pre drill" the arm before 
installing on the post.  This is because the 
likelihood of you being able to match up the 
holes on the post with the holes on the arm are 
not great given the confined space you'll have 
to work with and the difficulty of keeping the drill level while you work.
The tiller arm has a very important plus side as 
it enables your autopilot to serve as an 
emergency tiller in the event of a steering 
system failure such as a fractured radial drive, 
cable breakage or idler failure.  Finally, make 
sure that the autopilot isn't set up as the 
rudder stop as damage to the autopilot can occur.

Good luck with the install and Edson is a good source for advice..
Chuck Gilchrest
S/V Half Magic
1983 35 Landfall
Padanaram, MA

>From: CnC-List  
On Behalf Of Tom Buscaglia via CnC-List

>Sent: Sunday, April 19, 2020 6:19 PM
 ...snip...
>... greatly appreciated.  If you want to 
support the list - use PayPal to send 
contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray


.¤º°`°º¤,¸¸,¤º°`°º¤¤º°`°º¤,¸¸,¤º°`°º¤.
Tom & Lynn Buscaglia
SV Alera
C&C 37+/40
Vashon Island WA
(206) 463-9200
www.sv-alera.com


___

Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each and 
every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use PayPal 
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Re: Stus-List Linear Auto Pilot install

[Gary Russell via CnC-List]

Regardless of the controller you use, I would recommend the Raymarine
Electric Drive Unit (Type 2?).  The benefit of an electric drive unit is it
doesn't have the drag on the wheel/tiller when in standby mode.  The
hydraulic units I've used make it hard to feel the boat when hand steering.

Gary
S/V Kaylarah
'90 C&C 37+
East Greenwich, RI, USA
~~~_/)~~



On Mon, Apr 20, 2020 at 11:38 AM Bradley Lumgair via CnC-List <
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

> I’ve been crawling around below deck on our C&C 33/2 contemplating the
> installation of a below deck autopilot as well. My rudder post is 2.373 or
> roughly 2-3/8 diameter, appears to be solid stainless. My keyway extends
> down below the quadrant by about 4 inches or so, right where the arm needs
> to go, didn’t realize how lucky I was until I read through this post. So,
> to my question, what are you using for a drive unit? I’ve looked at the
> Octopus R/S online also considering a few others but curious as to what
> others have decided on.
> Thanks
> Brad
> Pulse
> C&C 33/2
> Lake Huron
> ___
>
> Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each
> and every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list -
> use PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
>
>
___

Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each and 
every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use PayPal 
to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray

Re: Stus-List Keel movement in C&C 24

[Chris Bennett via CnC-List]

Hi John,

Thanks for the tip - will take a look at the Mirage 24 site.

Regards,
Chris
___

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Re: Stus-List Keel movement in C&C 24

[Della Barba, Joe via CnC-List]

I have tightened mine a few times. It seems to be a C&C maintenance item.
What you might want to analyze is if the keel moves in respect to the hull or 
the hull is flexing. If you have a helper or a camera, move the keep and see 
what – if anything – moves inside the boat. I suppose it is even possible that 
the keel to hull mating surface is not fair or something got in there back at 
the factory and the keel is being held from being flush with the hull.
My boat suffered from the backing plates being made of steel that predictably 
were dissolving in salt water. I replaced them with stainless backing plates. I 
know of a C&C 34 that suffered from the keel being loose because they did not 
HAVE backing plates, someone at C&C cheaped out and used washers, which were 
digging their way into the fiberglass.

Joe Della Barba Coquina C&C 35  MK I
www.dellabarba.com

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Chris 
Bennett via CnC-List
Sent: Monday, April 20, 2020 12:28 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com; mike.h...@impgroup.com
Cc: Chris Bennett 
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: Stus-List Keel movement in C&C 24

Hi Mike,

Thanks for the suggestions. I will test the torque of the bolts later today if 
my socket is deep enough to do so. If they have not been tightened for 35 years 
(and the original long term owner assured me he had never done so) then maybe 
this is the issue.

Regards,
Chris
___

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every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use PayPal 
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Re: Stus-List Keel movement in C&C 24

[John Irvin via CnC-List]

Your boat is very similar to a Mirage 24. Anything on their website of use?

Sent from my iPhone

On Apr 20, 2020, at 12:16 PM, Hoyt, Mike via CnC-List  
wrote:


Hi Chris

While I believe Surveyors know an awful lot about boats and their construction 
they can sometimes make an error.

We had a Hinterhoeller Niagara 26 (which is basically a C&C based on who built 
those boats).  Early on we noted water seeping into the boat around the keel 
bolts.  Tightening the keel bolts while in the water eliminated the leaks.  
When we hauled at the end of the season and boat was in the slings we noted 
movement from side to side similar to what you described.  Rebedding the keel 
and retorquing the keel bolts resolved the issue completely.  It is possible 
that perhaps surveyor may have been incorrect about the cause of the keel 
movement.  I would suggest that in the slings you check this out yourself and 
get a second opinion from a qualified expert at the same time.  It may well be 
that the surveyor is correct and the movement is caused by hull flexing but it 
also may simply be loose keel bolts.

The 24 is a fairly small boat.  The construction is very similar to the Niagara 
given that George Hinterhoeller ran both construction facilities.  In our case 
there was sufficient length on the bolts for us to back off the nuts approx. 2 
inches on each and then jack up the boat those same two inches.  This left a 
gap between hull and keel sufficient to clean out the joint.  We then used a 
generous amount of 3M 5200 and lowered the boat back down on the keel and 
torqued the bolts.  Never leaked again and the movement was entirely gone.

Your situation may very well be different but the entire cost since the boat 
was hauled anyway was that of a tube of 5200.

Mike Hoyt
Persistence
1987 Frers 33 #16
Halifax, NS
www.hoytsailing.com


From: CnC-List  On Behalf Of Robert Abbott via 
CnC-List
Sent: April 20, 2020 12:42 PM
To: Chris Bennett 
Cc: Robert Abbott ; cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Subject: Re: Stus-List Keel movement in C&C 24

Chris:



Inside, check grid structures and interior pans for cracks, from the pics I 
think I can see some cracks. Probe all grid, pan, floor, step, and bulkhead 
bonds with your flexible blade.

Should your inspection reveal hull damage or weakness, you’ll need to deal with 
this first. Corrective measures depend entirely on the problem, but if the 
damage is serious, you will probably have to remove the keel. In addition to 
grinding away and replacing any fractured or delaminated glass, a full repair 
will also necessitate additional reinforcing members and/or additional layers 
of fiberglass to strengthen the damaged areas.

The mast compression is not as serious but nevertheless needs to be addressed 
as well.removal of the old and a complete rebuild is necessary.

Given what you have described and the pics, I agree with Joe, not a good idea 
to go sailing and possibly have the keel fall off.

The cost of a professional repair would probably be as much as the boat is 
worthhow much personal time and effort you are prepared to put into it, 
only you can determine.

Keep us informed.

Rob Abbott



On 4/19/2020 10:43 PM, Chris Bennett wrote:
Hi Rob,

I do have pictures but do not know how best to post them to this forum so I 
will upload them to my google drive. This is the shareable link: 
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1qEfA4WHGKMVUk6bKch9X4-hXn76AR46C

The issue I believe from examining the bilge area is that my C&C 24 has 
stiffeners (what would be floors in a wooden boat) that help prevent the hull 
from flexing too much when the keel is put in stress (say when beating to 
windward) and that the bonding of some of these stiffeners to the hull may have 
failed. I see signs of this in three of the 'floors'.   The surveyor said that 
the issue is general hull flexing, not any cracking or failure of the lead keel 
to fibreglass joint.

 I named the pictures that you should (hopefully) be able to download from the 
above link as descriptively as I could. I use the term floors to refer to the 
transverse reinforcing areas. The floors at the forward end and aft end of the 
bilge are solid 'boxes'that have no issues. The other 3 floors (floors 2 to 4) 
from forward to aft are as follows (see overview picture and detailed pics):

2) The mast step floor. The plywood appears to have sunken and partly 
delaminated and pulled away from the sides. There is a resin and fibreglass 
strap that runs over the plywood cross piece and outboard at least 8 inches.  
The glass does not seem very thick on this one. See the pictures that show a 
clear curve that has cracked the base of the compression post casting. I 
shimmed this up last year but did not address the real issue.

3) A U shaped center 'floor' that is basically a big strap of resin and glass 
that runs down into the bilge and up the sides. The keel bolt goes through this 
strap. The pictures show a crack on 

Re: Stus-List Keel movement in C&C 24

[Chris Bennett via CnC-List]

Hi Mike,

Thanks for the suggestions. I will test the torque of the bolts later today
if my socket is deep enough to do so. If they have not been tightened for
35 years (and the original long term owner assured me he had never done so)
then maybe this is the issue.

Regards,
Chris
___

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every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use PayPal 
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Re: Stus-List Keel movement in C&C 24

[Chris Bennett via CnC-List]

>
> Thanks Gary and Joe for your positive comments and suggestions. As I
> replied to Rob, I am also going to check the keel bolt torques as this may
> be the underlying issue. I will definitely rebuild the mast step as well
> and get this area level before replacing the compression post base.


Regards,
Chris
___

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Re: Stus-List Keel movement in C&C 24

[Chris Bennett via CnC-List]

Thanks Rob,

I will inspect as you suggest. I have also had a few people suggest that I
may be looking in the wrong area and that the problem may simply be that
the keel bolts are too loose - not loose enough that the keel to sump
bonding has failed but loose enough that the keel is moving against the
sump. I will head to the boat today and check the bolt torque if I can find
a sufficiently deep socket. Will report back to the group as soon as I have
more info.

Regards,
Chris

On Mon, 20 Apr 2020 at 08:41, Robert Abbott 
wrote:

> Chris:
>
> Inside, check grid structures and interior pans for cracks, from the pics
> I think I can see some cracks. Probe all grid, pan, floor, step, and
> bulkhead bonds with your flexible blade.
>
> Should your inspection reveal hull damage or weakness, you’ll need to deal
> with this first. Corrective measures depend entirely on the problem, but if
> the damage is serious, you will probably have to remove the keel. In
> addition to grinding away and replacing any fractured or delaminated glass,
> a full repair will also necessitate additional reinforcing members and/or
> additional layers of fiberglass to strengthen the damaged areas.
>
> The mast compression is not as serious but nevertheless needs to be
> addressed as well.removal of the old and a complete rebuild is
> necessary.
>
> Given what you have described and the pics, I agree with Joe, not a good
> idea to go sailing and possibly have the keel fall off.
>
> The cost of a professional repair would probably be as much as the boat is
> worthhow much personal time and effort you are prepared to put into it,
> only you can determine.
>
> Keep us informed.
>
> Rob Abbott
>
>
>
>
> On 4/19/2020 10:43 PM, Chris Bennett wrote:
>
> Hi Rob,
>
> I do have pictures but do not know how best to post them to this forum so
> I will upload them to my google drive. This is the shareable link:
> https://drive.google.com/open?id=1qEfA4WHGKMVUk6bKch9X4-hXn76AR46C
>
> The issue I believe from examining the bilge area is that my C&C 24 has
> stiffeners (what would be floors in a wooden boat) that help prevent the
> hull from flexing too much when the keel is put in stress (say when beating
> to windward) and that the bonding of some of these stiffeners to the hull
> may have failed. I see signs of this in three of the 'floors'.   The
> surveyor said that the issue is general hull flexing, not any cracking or
> failure of the lead keel to fibreglass joint.
>
>  I named the pictures that you should (hopefully) be able to download from
> the above link as descriptively as I could. I use the term floors to refer
> to the transverse reinforcing areas. The floors at the forward end and aft
> end of the bilge are solid 'boxes'that have no issues. The other 3 floors
> (floors 2 to 4) from forward to aft are as follows (see overview picture
> and detailed pics):
>
> 2) The mast step floor. The plywood appears to have sunken and partly
> delaminated and pulled away from the sides. There is a resin and fibreglass
> strap that runs over the plywood cross piece and outboard at least 8
> inches.  The glass does not seem very thick on this one. See the pictures
> that show a clear curve that has cracked the base of the compression post
> casting. I shimmed this up last year but did not address the real issue.
>
> 3) A U shaped center 'floor' that is basically a big strap of resin and
> glass that runs down into the bilge and up the sides. The keel bolt goes
> through this strap. The pictures show a crack on either side where the
> strap attaches to the bilge base. Not sure how far the strap runs outboard
> but at least 8 inches to where the hull liner cabin sole is bonded to the
> hull. I cannot see how this would do much to stop the hull from flexing
>
> 4) Another plywood crosspiece with resin and glass strap over it. This
> strap appears to no longer be bonded correctly to the hull in the pictures.
>
> I am thinking of reinforcing floors 2 and 4 perhaps adding a cross piece
> and tabbing this better underneath as well as encapsulating in epoxy.
> Perhaps a box made from a top crosspiece with two ends that resemble more
> traditional (deeper) floors would be better if you can picture what I mean?
> I would replace the mast step fitting with a plate and collar made of
> aluminum since the original fitting does not appear to be available anymore
> - the compression post is 2 inches in outer diameter roughly. I was also
> thinking about adding deeper floors fore and aft of the center U shaped
> strap but concerned this might introduce hard spots?
>
> To do any of this I suspect I will have to remove the teak and holly sole
> and cut out with a multi tool or grinder a portion of the fibreglass sole
> so as to gain access to the outboard ends to allow for suitably wide floors
> as well as making access much easier. The problem with this approach is
> that this liner is bonded to the hull and contributes to the overall
> strength so it would need 

Re: Stus-List Keel movement in C&C 24

[Hoyt, Mike via CnC-List]

Hi Chris

While I believe Surveyors know an awful lot about boats and their construction 
they can sometimes make an error.

We had a Hinterhoeller Niagara 26 (which is basically a C&C based on who built 
those boats).  Early on we noted water seeping into the boat around the keel 
bolts.  Tightening the keel bolts while in the water eliminated the leaks.  
When we hauled at the end of the season and boat was in the slings we noted 
movement from side to side similar to what you described.  Rebedding the keel 
and retorquing the keel bolts resolved the issue completely.  It is possible 
that perhaps surveyor may have been incorrect about the cause of the keel 
movement.  I would suggest that in the slings you check this out yourself and 
get a second opinion from a qualified expert at the same time.  It may well be 
that the surveyor is correct and the movement is caused by hull flexing but it 
also may simply be loose keel bolts.

The 24 is a fairly small boat.  The construction is very similar to the Niagara 
given that George Hinterhoeller ran both construction facilities.  In our case 
there was sufficient length on the bolts for us to back off the nuts approx. 2 
inches on each and then jack up the boat those same two inches.  This left a 
gap between hull and keel sufficient to clean out the joint.  We then used a 
generous amount of 3M 5200 and lowered the boat back down on the keel and 
torqued the bolts.  Never leaked again and the movement was entirely gone.

Your situation may very well be different but the entire cost since the boat 
was hauled anyway was that of a tube of 5200.

Mike Hoyt
Persistence
1987 Frers 33 #16
Halifax, NS
www.hoytsailing.com


From: CnC-List  On Behalf Of Robert Abbott via 
CnC-List
Sent: April 20, 2020 12:42 PM
To: Chris Bennett 
Cc: Robert Abbott ; cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Subject: Re: Stus-List Keel movement in C&C 24

Chris:



Inside, check grid structures and interior pans for cracks, from the pics I 
think I can see some cracks. Probe all grid, pan, floor, step, and bulkhead 
bonds with your flexible blade.

Should your inspection reveal hull damage or weakness, you’ll need to deal with 
this first. Corrective measures depend entirely on the problem, but if the 
damage is serious, you will probably have to remove the keel. In addition to 
grinding away and replacing any fractured or delaminated glass, a full repair 
will also necessitate additional reinforcing members and/or additional layers 
of fiberglass to strengthen the damaged areas.

The mast compression is not as serious but nevertheless needs to be addressed 
as well.removal of the old and a complete rebuild is necessary.

Given what you have described and the pics, I agree with Joe, not a good idea 
to go sailing and possibly have the keel fall off.

The cost of a professional repair would probably be as much as the boat is 
worthhow much personal time and effort you are prepared to put into it, 
only you can determine.

Keep us informed.

Rob Abbott



On 4/19/2020 10:43 PM, Chris Bennett wrote:
Hi Rob,

I do have pictures but do not know how best to post them to this forum so I 
will upload them to my google drive. This is the shareable link: 
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1qEfA4WHGKMVUk6bKch9X4-hXn76AR46C

The issue I believe from examining the bilge area is that my C&C 24 has 
stiffeners (what would be floors in a wooden boat) that help prevent the hull 
from flexing too much when the keel is put in stress (say when beating to 
windward) and that the bonding of some of these stiffeners to the hull may have 
failed. I see signs of this in three of the 'floors'.   The surveyor said that 
the issue is general hull flexing, not any cracking or failure of the lead keel 
to fibreglass joint.

 I named the pictures that you should (hopefully) be able to download from the 
above link as descriptively as I could. I use the term floors to refer to the 
transverse reinforcing areas. The floors at the forward end and aft end of the 
bilge are solid 'boxes'that have no issues. The other 3 floors (floors 2 to 4) 
from forward to aft are as follows (see overview picture and detailed pics):

2) The mast step floor. The plywood appears to have sunken and partly 
delaminated and pulled away from the sides. There is a resin and fibreglass 
strap that runs over the plywood cross piece and outboard at least 8 inches.  
The glass does not seem very thick on this one. See the pictures that show a 
clear curve that has cracked the base of the compression post casting. I 
shimmed this up last year but did not address the real issue.

3) A U shaped center 'floor' that is basically a big strap of resin and glass 
that runs down into the bilge and up the sides. The keel bolt goes through this 
strap. The pictures show a crack on either side where the strap attaches to the 
bilge base. Not sure how far the strap runs outboard but at least 8 inches to 
where the hull liner cabin sole is bonde

Re: Stus-List Keel movement in C&C 24

[Robert Abbott via CnC-List]

Chris:

Inside, check grid structures and interior pans for cracks, from the 
pics I think I can see some cracks. Probe all grid, pan, floor, step, 
and bulkhead bonds with your flexible blade.


Should your inspection reveal hull damage or weakness, you’ll need to 
deal with this first. Corrective measures depend entirely on the 
problem, but if the damage is serious, you will probably have to remove 
the keel. In addition to grinding away and replacing any fractured or 
delaminated glass, a full repair will also necessitate additional 
reinforcing members and/or additional layers of fiberglass to strengthen 
the damaged areas.


The mast compression is not as serious but nevertheless needs to be 
addressed as well.removal of the old and a complete rebuild is 
necessary.


Given what you have described and the pics, I agree with Joe, not a good 
idea to go sailing and possibly have the keel fall off.


The cost of a professional repair would probably be as much as the boat 
is worthhow much personal time and effort you are prepared to put 
into it, only you can determine.


Keep us informed.

Rob Abbott




On 4/19/2020 10:43 PM, Chris Bennett wrote:

Hi Rob,

I do have pictures but do not know how best to post them to this forum 
so I will upload them to my google drive. This is the shareable link: 
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1qEfA4WHGKMVUk6bKch9X4-hXn76AR46C


The issue I believe from examining the bilge area is that my C&C 24 
has stiffeners (what would be floors in a wooden boat) that help 
prevent the hull from flexing too much when the keel is put in stress 
(say when beating to windward) and that the bonding of some of these 
stiffeners to the hull may have failed. I see signs of this in three 
of the 'floors'.  The surveyor said that the issue is general hull 
flexing, not any cracking or failure of the lead keel to fibreglass joint.


 I named the pictures that you should (hopefully) be able to download 
from the above link as descriptively as I could. I use the term floors 
to refer to the transverse reinforcing areas. The floors at the 
forward end and aft end of the bilge are solid 'boxes'that have no 
issues. The other 3 floors (floors 2 to 4) from forward to aft are as 
follows (see overview picture and detailed pics):


2) The mast step floor. The plywood appears to have sunken and partly 
delaminated and pulled away from the sides. There is a resin and 
fibreglass strap that runs over the plywood cross piece and outboard 
at least 8 inches.  The glass does not seem very thick on this one. 
See the pictures that show a clear curve that has cracked the base of 
the compression post casting. I shimmed this up last year but did not 
address the real issue.


3) A U shaped center 'floor' that is basically a big strap of resin 
and glass that runs down into the bilge and up the sides. The keel 
bolt goes through this strap. The pictures show a crack on either side 
where the strap attaches to the bilge base. Not sure how far the strap 
runs outboard but at least 8 inches to where the hull liner cabin sole 
is bonded to the hull. I cannot see how this would do much to stop the 
hull from flexing


4) Another plywood crosspiece with resin and glass strap over it. This 
strap appears to no longer be bonded correctly to the hull in the 
pictures.


I am thinking of reinforcing floors 2 and 4 perhaps adding a cross 
piece and tabbing this better underneath as well as encapsulating in 
epoxy. Perhaps a box made from a top crosspiece with two ends that 
resemble more traditional (deeper) floors would be better if you can 
picture what I mean? I would replace the mast step fitting with a 
plate and collar made of aluminum since the original fitting does not 
appear to be available anymore - the compression post is 2 inches in 
outer diameter roughly. I was also thinking about adding deeper floors 
fore and aft of the center U shaped strap but concerned this might 
introduce hard spots?


To do any of this I suspect I will have to remove the teak and holly 
sole and cut out with a multi tool or grinder a portion of the 
fibreglass sole so as to gain access to the outboard ends to allow for 
suitably wide floors as well as making access much easier. The problem 
with this approach is that this liner is bonded to the hull and 
contributes to the overall strength so it would need to be replaced 
carefully so as to restore this strength.


A further constraint is to leave access to the keel bolts for 
tightening or replacement and to the bilge for cleaning.


Any suggestions and comments greatly appreciated!

Regards,
Chris


On Sun, 19 Apr 2020 at 17:26, Robert Abbott > wrote:


Chris,

Trying to understand exactly what you are describing without a
pictureare you saying the keel is tight to the keel box but
the keel box is cracked from the hull?  If there is no 'smile' and
your keel moves 4"  side to side, what else could it be?  If I
 

Stus-List Linear Auto Pilot install

[Bradley Lumgair via CnC-List]

I’ve been crawling around below deck on our C&C 33/2 contemplating the 
installation of a below deck autopilot as well. My rudder post is 2.373 or 
roughly 2-3/8 diameter, appears to be solid stainless. My keyway extends down 
below the quadrant by about 4 inches or so, right where the arm needs to go, 
didn’t realize how lucky I was until I read through this post. So, to my 
question, what are you using for a drive unit? I’ve looked at the Octopus R/S 
online also considering a few others but curious as to what others have decided 
on.
Thanks
Brad
Pulse
C&C 33/2
Lake Huron
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Re: Stus-List Keel movement in C&C 24

[Gary Nylander via CnC-List]

+1 with Joe on the repair possibility. The pictures show that many of the early 
C&C’s used the same type of construction. The 30’s have three of those 
‘bundles’ of fibers laid across the keel sump with some plywood stringers in 
between. These, in turn, have a big oak block on top with a box for the mast. 
“Keel’ stepped, so they say, but really ‘plywood’ stepped. My plywood was 
rotted from the bottom, as they didn’t completely cover it in glass. After a 
couple of quickie repairs, I finally bit the bullet, cut all that crap out, and 
threw about a gallon of epoxy in there, with new crossmembers made from some 
really hard stuff I got from McMasters-Carr. Now I don’t have any low spots 
where water can gather – all water flows to the low spot where the bilge pump 
is mounted. It was a messy and dusty job, and my knees are still mad at me 
after a couple years, but solid. There are some pix on Stu’s site which show 
the mast step repair on a 30, but you can get a good idea of what you are in 
for. Not rocket science, but just grubby work.

 

Gary

1980 30-1

 

From: CnC-List  On Behalf Of Della Barba, Joe 
via CnC-List
Sent: Monday, April 20, 2020 10:38 AM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: Della Barba, Joe 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Keel movement in C&C 24

 

Wow – sorry to hear about this :(

First off, do NOT troubleshoot this in the water unless prepared to swim home!

I think you can do the “survey” yourself, just have the boat in the slings and 
grab the keel. It sounded like a pretty obvious issue. Assuming you find this 
is actually a problem, there is a decision to make. It will be cheaper to buy 
another boat than pay to have this fixed. As a DIY project, the cost is not 
huge. I would guess $500 or less in epoxy, wood, glass, and miscellaneous 
items. The PITA factor will be high, a lot of cutting, grinding, and sanding 
lying on your belly will be involved. Only you know how badly you want the boat 
fixed.

Some of us have done something similar, I did my mast step back in 1994 or so.

 

 

Joe Della Barba Coquina C&C 35  MK I

www.dellabarba.com  

 

 

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Re: Stus-List A Different CNC inquiry

[Lee Rosenbaum via CnC-List]

Stu:

My CNC is a Shapeoko 3XXL.
I use Vectric Aspire as my main design software. Vectric has a few versions
(Vectric Desktop, Vectric Pro, Vectric Aspire). It is one of the most
versatile options out there, but pricey.  I have a laser attachment and use
Lightburn for any laser work.

Lee Rosenbaum
C&C 33 MKII

-Original Message-

Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 09:37:39 -0400
From: "Stu" 
To: "C&C Email List" 
Subject: Stus-List A Different CNC inquiry
Message-ID: 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

This is not about C&C but CNC (Computer Numerical Control).  I would like to
touch bases with any of our listers who have and use a desktop style CNC
machine and find out what design software they are using.

If you don?t know what I am talking about ? here is one for you to look at:


Stu --


___

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every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use PayPal 
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Re: Stus-List A Different CNC inquiry

[Gary Nylander via CnC-List]

It looks like your machine is a 2D machine. If so, you may be able to use 
Lightburn software, which we are using on our Laser cutter. We have a large 
flatbed laser cutter which has a Ruida controller but Lightburn says it can 
handle other types of controllers as well.

 

Gary Nylander

CBMM Model Guild

St. Michaels MD

 

From: CnC-List  On Behalf Of Stu via CnC-List
Sent: Monday, April 20, 2020 9:38 AM
To: C&C Email List 
Cc: Stu 
Subject: Stus-List A Different CNC inquiry

 

This is not about C&C but CNC (Computer Numerical Control).  I would like to 
touch bases with any of our listers who have and use a desktop style CNC 
machine and find out what design software they are using.

 

If you don’t know what I am talking about – here is one for you to look at:

 



 

Stu -- 

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every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use PayPal 
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Re: Stus-List Keel movement in C&C 24

[Della Barba, Joe via CnC-List]

Wow – sorry to hear about this ☹
First off, do NOT troubleshoot this in the water unless prepared to swim home!
I think you can do the “survey” yourself, just have the boat in the slings and 
grab the keel. It sounded like a pretty obvious issue. Assuming you find this 
is actually a problem, there is a decision to make. It will be cheaper to buy 
another boat than pay to have this fixed. As a DIY project, the cost is not 
huge. I would guess $500 or less in epoxy, wood, glass, and miscellaneous 
items. The PITA factor will be high, a lot of cutting, grinding, and sanding 
lying on your belly will be involved. Only you know how badly you want the boat 
fixed.
Some of us have done something similar, I did my mast step back in 1994 or so.


Joe Della Barba Coquina C&C 35  MK I
www.dellabarba.com


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every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use PayPal 
to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray

Re: Stus-List A Different CNC inquiry

[Aaron Rouhi via CnC-List]

Fusion 360 is the way to go. Pretty intuitive and free for non-commercial use.

Aaron R.
Admiral Maggie
79 30-1
Annapolis, MD

From: CnC-List  on behalf of Stu via CnC-List 

Sent: Monday, April 20, 2020 9:37:39 AM
To: C&C Email List 
Cc: Stu 
Subject: Stus-List A Different CNC inquiry

This is not about C&C but CNC (Computer Numerical Control).  I would like to 
touch bases with any of our listers who have and use a desktop style CNC 
machine and find out what design software they are using.

If you don’t know what I am talking about – here is one for you to look at:

[cnc-router]

Stu --
___

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every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use PayPal 
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Re: Stus-List A Different CNC inquiry

[Neil Gallagher via CnC-List]

Hi Stu,

I've been working with Fusion 360 for for toolpath generation a few 
years, after trying Solidworks and Mastercam, and I find it much more 
intuitive and pretty easy to use.  It's published by Autodesk, who sells 
Autocad, and it's free if you're not using if for commercial work.  Be 
happy to talk offline if you want more detail.


Neil Gallagher
Weatherly, 35-1
Glen Cove, NY



On 4/20/2020 9:37 AM, Stu via CnC-List wrote:
This is not about C&C but CNC (Computer Numerical Control).  I would 
like to touch bases with any of our listers who have and use a desktop 
style CNC machine and find out what design software they are using.
If you don’t know what I am talking about – here is one for you to 
look at:

cnc-router
Stu --


___

Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each and 
every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use PayPal 
to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray



___

Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each and 
every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use PayPal 
to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray

Stus-List A Different CNC inquiry

[Stu via CnC-List]

This is not about C&C but CNC (Computer Numerical Control).  I would like to 
touch bases with any of our listers who have and use a desktop style CNC 
machine and find out what design software they are using.

If you don’t know what I am talking about – here is one for you to look at:



Stu -- ___

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every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use PayPal 
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Re: Stus-List Linear Auto Pilot install 37+/40

[Chuck Gilchrest via CnC-List]

Tom,
Thought I'd weigh in as a former Edsonite..  The most important thing to 
realize when installing the autopilot is that the clamping action of the arm 
and cap for the tiller arm is the primary form of attachment to the rudder 
post.  Edson makes the arm with a .002" clamping tolerance to the diameter of 
the rudder post.  The secondary or "failsafe" attachment is a key, through 
bolt, or set screws.  When you order your tiller arm, don't assume that C&C 
always used the same diameter stainless post for every boat and model.  It's 
important to get precise measurement of the post where you wish to attach the 
arm, preferably using a digital caliper to achieve the proper tolerance.  
Measure the exact diameter of the post, and take several measurements as you 
rotate the caliper around the post at a variety of positions where the tiller 
arm will attach.  When Edson bores the arm to your specification, they'll 
insert a small piece of paper between the arm and cap.  Removing it will give 
the arm the proper undersized clamping tolerance needed for the arm to grab the 
post without slippage.  Again, the keyway or through bolt should prevent the 
arm from rotating ONLY if the clamping tolerance is compromised, as in a hard 
grounding, rudder stop failure, or other drastic event.

As you've found, if there's no accessible keyway cut in the post, the through 
bolt method is preferred if the post is hollow (typical with  SS posts) or set 
screws if the post is solid (usually with a bronze rudder post).  Getting the 
arm positioned to drill the post and tiller arm can be problematic, finding a 
drill bit long enough to get it in place and then drilling through the hard 
steel (thus the need for a carbide bit and some lubricating oil to prevent work 
hardening the bit) but avoid the temptation to "pre drill" the arm before 
installing on the post.  This is because the likelihood of you being able to 
match up the holes on the post with the holes on the arm are not great given 
the confined space you'll have to work with and the difficulty of keeping the 
drill level while you work.
The tiller arm has a very important plus side as it enables your autopilot to 
serve as an emergency tiller in the event of a steering system failure such as 
a fractured radial drive, cable breakage or idler failure.  Finally, make sure 
that the autopilot isn't set up as the rudder stop as damage to the autopilot 
can occur.
Good luck with the install and Edson is a good source for advice..
Chuck Gilchrest
S/V Half Magic
1983 35 Landfall
Padanaram, MA

-Original Message-
From: CnC-List  On Behalf Of Tom Buscaglia via 
CnC-List
Sent: Sunday, April 19, 2020 6:19 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: Tom Buscaglia https://www.paypal.me/stumurray



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