Stus-List Re: Fuel pump

[CHARLES SCHEAFFER via CnC-List]

Dave,
I think the little electric fuel pump needs fuel in it, to be able to pump.  I 
don't think it can run dry like other style pumps.  Sounds like you are very 
close to learning something.  Keep at it.

Chuck S

> On 09/27/2021 1:47 PM David Knecht via CnC-List  
> wrote:
> 
> 
> Update on fuel issues: I spent a few hours more on the fuel system last 
> weekend and things seem to be working, but unfortunately I am not sure what 
> fixed it or even if it is fixed.  I replaced several more fuel lines and 
> removed the vacuum gauge I had installed between the tank and the Racor just 
> to simplify the possible vacuum leak points.  All the hoses looked good, but 
> apparently you can’t always tell.  With the hose end heated in hot water 
> trick, I was able to get the new hose on, but it was still a real battle in 
> tight places.  The fittings were variable in size and style and some were 
> really challenging.  After completing the connections, I turned on the fuel 
> pump, expecting it to pull fuel from the tank and fill the Racor bowl.  It 
> did not.  So I opened the Racor bowl, filled it and tested again, and the 
> bowl stayed full.  I pulled the fuel level sensor so I could see inside the 
> tank, and I could see fuel coming out of the return tube from the engine.  
> That told me I was in fact pumping fuel.  I then ran the engine for 30 min 
> and all seemed well.  
> I am hoping it is fixed but it is frustrating that I don’t know what was 
> wrong.  Apparently, my “does the pump fill the bowl" test was not the correct 
> way to assess function.  Is it possible that when the pump is full of air it 
> can’t pull enough vacuum to feed the Racor?  Also, given that the original 
> problem occurred twice a week apart, with it working fine for hours in 
> between has me worried it will occur again.  Intermittent problems are the 
> worst!  Fingers crossed. 
>  I plan to replace the Racor with a newer model with a gauge built into 
> the lid before next season.  I found new filters for my 200 Turbine series, 
> but it seems they are getting harder to locate.  Probably not going to run 
> out in my sailing lifetime, but the newer Racors seem a decent upgrade.  Dave
> 
> S/V Aries
> 1990 C 34+
> New London, CT
> 
> 
> 
> > > On Sep 25, 2021, at 3:36 PM, Korbey Hunt via CnC-List 
> mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com > wrote:
> > 
> > When installing a hose to nipple fitting i recomnend using a hair 
> > dryer to warm the hose and liquid dish soap to lube the nipple barb.  
> > 
> > Get Outlook for Android https://aka.ms/AAb9ysg
> > 
> > -
> > From: cenelson via CnC-List  > mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com >
> >         Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2021 3:09:10 PM
> > To: Stus-List mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com >
> > Cc: cenelson mailto:cenel...@aol.com >
> > Subject: Stus-List Re: Fuel pump
> > 
> > Had a similar problem to yours several years ago. After doing most 
> > of what you have done, my diesel mechanic suggested just replacing the 
> > Racor MA 500(?) top plate since even a little over tightening can push the 
> > middle down enough that the O-ring on the circumference will leak enough 
> > that after running for a while the air inside it gets into the fuel lines. 
> > 
> > This was a cheap enough thing to do that I did it—along with a few 
> > other ‘fixes’ and the problem went away. 
> > 
> > Since it was not the only change I made, I can’t be certain that 
> > the new top plate solved the problem or if it was something else. 
> > 
> > Note I am pretty sure that the instructions for the Racor say to 
> > only hand tighten this plate or something similar—I now know why! 
> > 
> > Given how little extra tightening it would take at the Center to 
> > deflect the circumference/O-ring joint enough to suck air in, (probably a 
> > few microns could break the vacuum seal) and over time you have air bubbles 
> > that get to the engine or at least prevent fuel from getting to the engine.
> > 
> > FWIW,
> > 
> > Charlie Nelson
> > 
> > 
> > Sent from the all new AOL app for iOS 
> > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fapps.apple.com%2Fus%2Fapp%2Faol-news-email-weather-video%2Fid646100661=04%7C01%7C%7C4c63e0fcb6e74b16a67e08d97edecee9%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C637680317687570152%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000=pXd69QGB

Stus-List Re: Fuel pump

[dwight veinot via CnC-List]

I guess my Racor filter must be installed lower than the pickup line for
fuel in the tank because if I don’t close the valve in the line from the
tank fuel flow is continuous when I change the Racor filter element. My
facet electric fuel pump is mounted higher and a couple feet aft of my
Racor filter

On Mon, Sep 27, 2021 at 2:47 PM David Knecht via CnC-List <
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

> Update on fuel issues: I spent a few hours more on the fuel system last
> weekend and things seem to be working, but unfortunately I am not sure what
> fixed it or even if it is fixed.  I replaced several more fuel lines and
> removed the vacuum gauge I had installed between the tank and the Racor
> just to simplify the possible vacuum leak points.  All the hoses looked
> good, but apparently you can’t always tell.  With the hose end heated in
> hot water trick, I was able to get the new hose on, but it was still a real
> battle in tight places.  The fittings were variable in size and style and
> some were really challenging.  After completing the connections, I turned
> on the fuel pump, expecting it to pull fuel from the tank and fill the
> Racor bowl.  It did not.  So I opened the Racor bowl, filled it and tested
> again, and the bowl stayed full.  I pulled the fuel level sensor so I could
> see inside the tank, and I could see fuel coming out of the return tube
> from the engine.  That told me I was in fact pumping fuel.  I then ran the
> engine for 30 min and all seemed well.
> I am hoping it is fixed but it is frustrating that I don’t know what was
> wrong.  Apparently, my “does the pump fill the bowl" test was not the
> correct way to assess function.  Is it possible that when the pump is full
> of air it can’t pull enough vacuum to feed the Racor?  Also, given that the
> original problem occurred twice a week apart, with it working fine for
> hours in between has me worried it will occur again.  Intermittent problems
> are the worst!  Fingers crossed.
>  I plan to replace the Racor with a newer model with a gauge built into
> the lid before next season.  I found new filters for my 200 Turbine series,
> but it seems they are getting harder to locate.  Probably not going to run
> out in my sailing lifetime, but the newer Racors seem a decent upgrade.
> Dave
>
> S/V Aries
> 1990 C 34+
> New London, CT
>
>
> On Sep 25, 2021, at 3:36 PM, Korbey Hunt via CnC-List <
> cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
>
> When installing a hose to nipple fitting i recomnend using a hair dryer to
> warm the hose and liquid dish soap to lube the nipple barb.
>
> Get Outlook for Android <https://aka.ms/AAb9ysg>
> ------
> *From:* cenelson via CnC-List 
> *Sent:* Thursday, September 23, 2021 3:09:10 PM
> *To:* Stus-List 
> *Cc:* cenelson 
> *Subject:* Stus-List Re: Fuel pump
>
> Had a similar problem to yours several years ago. After doing most of what
> you have done, my diesel mechanic suggested just replacing the Racor MA
> 500(?) top plate since even a little over tightening can push the middle
> down enough that the O-ring on the circumference will leak enough that
> after running for a while the air inside it gets into the fuel lines.
>
> This was a cheap enough thing to do that I did it—along with a few other
> ‘fixes’ and the problem went away.
>
> Since it was not the only change I made, I can’t be certain that the new
> top plate solved the problem or if it was something else.
>
> Note I am pretty sure that the instructions for the Racor say to only hand
> tighten this plate or something similar—I now know why!
>
> Given how little extra tightening it would take at the Center to deflect
> the circumference/O-ring joint enough to suck air in, (probably a few
> microns could break the vacuum seal) and over time you have air bubbles
> that get to the engine or at least prevent fuel from getting to the engine.
>
> FWIW,
>
> Charlie Nelson
>
>
> Sent from the all new AOL app for iOS
> <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fapps.apple.com%2Fus%2Fapp%2Faol-news-email-weather-video%2Fid646100661=04%7C01%7C%7C4c63e0fcb6e74b16a67e08d97edecee9%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C637680317687570152%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000=pXd69QGBqdzp8xQNHtBbEb4CypY8i%2Fmkeu8qWLgiw6w%3D=0>
>
> On Thursday, September 23, 2021, 12:36 PM, David Knecht via CnC-List <
> cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
>
> I meant bypass the Racor, turn on the pump and collect fuel into a
> secondary container to test.  I agree that I would not run the engine that
> way.  I am presuming that the flow of fuel through the filter should be a
> good test of the system since

Stus-List Re: Fuel pump

[Bill Coleman via CnC-List]

It was a clogged filter. 

Maybe you should try the check valve Racor suggests, it could be you are losing 
your prime.  It could also be that Monel tank, I think you should give that to 
me and get yourself a nice plastic tank.

 

 

Bill Coleman

Entrada, Erie, PA

 

 

 

From: Matthew via CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2021 8:47 AM
To: 'Stus-List'
Cc: Matthew
Subject: Stus-List Re: Fuel pump

 

Is your friend certain of the cause?  My Westerbeke also does not like to start 
after bouncing around in the big waves (especially following a knock-down).  My 
diesel mechanic (Andy H) has been thinking about the cause for years.  It is 
not a clogged filter problem in our case.  Fortunately, I have always been able 
to get it started, but it takes a lot of turning over.  Good thing I have 
sufficient battery reserve.

 

From: Bill Coleman via CnC-List  
Sent: Monday, September 27, 2021 5:44 PM
To: 'Stus-List' 
Cc: Bill Coleman 
Subject: Stus-List Re: Fuel pump

 

This is the second boat I have sprung for that double Racor.

A friend of mine finished up a race in Buffalo  with a 30Kt West wind and his 
engine wouldn’t start.  He had a hell of a time getting in  out of the waves 
without something bad happening. After hearing his story,  (Clogged filter, of 
course)  I thought, I don’t want that to happen to me – and I replaced mine. 
Engine starts to stutter, check the gauge, and flip the handle to the clean 
filter and keep on going.

 

 

Bill Coleman

Entrada, Erie, PA

 

 

 

Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Re: Fuel pump

[David Risch via CnC-List]

Two simple things have kept me out of filter and fuel pickup problems...keep 
the tank at least half full and filter all fuel going in tank.

Sent from my Android. Please forgive typos. Thank you.


From: Matthew via CnC-List 
Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2021 9:38:15 AM
To: 'Stus-List' 
Cc: Matthew 
Subject: Stus-List Re: Fuel pump


Thanks, Dave.  I will try leaving the pump on next time I venture out in the 
really fun stuff.



From: David Knecht via CnC-List 
Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2021 9:30 AM
To: CnC CnC discussion list 
Cc: David Knecht 
Subject: Stus-List Re: Fuel pump



 I had this happen on my previous boat with a Yanmar and I suspect I know why.  
I think the problem was getting air in the fuel lines as the pickup was 
sometimes not in the diesel as the boat bounced around when the tank is not 
full.  There was no electric fuel pump so you had to manually bleed the system 
to get the air out.  One thing I really like about the Universal with the 
electric fuel pump in my current boat is those air bubbles will be purged by 
the system if the fuel pump is left on with the engine not running.   Dave



S/V Aries

1990 C 34+

New London, CT

[cid:image001.png@01D7B44C.8FB02980]



On Sep 28, 2021, at 8:47 AM, Matthew via CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:



Is your friend certain of the cause?  My Westerbeke also does not like to start 
after bouncing around in the big waves (especially following a knock-down).  My 
diesel mechanic (Andy H) has been thinking about the cause for years.  It is 
not a clogged filter problem in our case.  Fortunately, I have always been able 
to get it started, but it takes a lot of turning over.  Good thing I have 
sufficient battery reserve.



From: Bill Coleman via CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>>
Sent: Monday, September 27, 2021 5:44 PM
To: 'Stus-List' mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>>
Cc: Bill Coleman mailto:colt...@gmail.com>>
Subject: Stus-List Re: Fuel pump



This is the second boat I have sprung for that double Racor.

A friend of mine finished up a race in Buffalo  with a 30Kt West wind and his 
engine wouldn’t start.  He had a hell of a time getting in  out of the waves 
without something bad happening. After hearing his story,  (Clogged filter, of 
course)  I thought, I don’t want that to happen to me – and I replaced mine. 
Engine starts to stutter, check the gauge, and flip the handle to the clean 
filter and keep on going.





Bill Coleman

Entrada, Erie, PA





Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.paypal.me%2Fstumurray=04%7C01%7C%7C71617882f64c4e94e43008d982853e4e%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C637684331052841523%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000=hUqfXiE7lCzjsMQ2%2F%2BnseXdpHWWn8VINikMb%2F8PT8Q0%3D=0>
  Thanks - Stu


Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Re: Fuel pump

[Matthew via CnC-List]

Thanks, Dave.  I will try leaving the pump on next time I venture out in the 
really fun stuff.

 

From: David Knecht via CnC-List  
Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2021 9:30 AM
To: CnC CnC discussion list 
Cc: David Knecht 
Subject: Stus-List Re: Fuel pump

 

 I had this happen on my previous boat with a Yanmar and I suspect I know why.  
I think the problem was getting air in the fuel lines as the pickup was 
sometimes not in the diesel as the boat bounced around when the tank is not 
full.  There was no electric fuel pump so you had to manually bleed the system 
to get the air out.  One thing I really like about the Universal with the 
electric fuel pump in my current boat is those air bubbles will be purged by 
the system if the fuel pump is left on with the engine not running.   Dave

 

S/V Aries

1990 C 34+

New London, CT








On Sep 28, 2021, at 8:47 AM, Matthew via CnC-List mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com> > wrote:

 

Is your friend certain of the cause?  My Westerbeke also does not like to start 
after bouncing around in the big waves (especially following a knock-down).  My 
diesel mechanic (Andy H) has been thinking about the cause for years.  It is 
not a clogged filter problem in our case.  Fortunately, I have always been able 
to get it started, but it takes a lot of turning over.  Good thing I have 
sufficient battery reserve.

 

From: Bill Coleman via CnC-List mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com> > 
Sent: Monday, September 27, 2021 5:44 PM
To: 'Stus-List' mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com> >
Cc: Bill Coleman mailto:colt...@gmail.com> >
Subject: Stus-List Re: Fuel pump

 

This is the second boat I have sprung for that double Racor.

A friend of mine finished up a race in Buffalo  with a 30Kt West wind and his 
engine wouldn’t start.  He had a hell of a time getting in  out of the waves 
without something bad happening. After hearing his story,  (Clogged filter, of 
course)  I thought, I don’t want that to happen to me – and I replaced mine. 
Engine starts to stutter, check the gauge, and flip the handle to the clean 
filter and keep on going.

 

 

Bill Coleman

Entrada, Erie, PA

 

 

Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --<https://www.paypal.me/stumurray> 
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

 

Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Re: Fuel pump

[David Knecht via CnC-List]

 I had this happen on my previous boat with a Yanmar and I suspect I know why.  
I think the problem was getting air in the fuel lines as the pickup was 
sometimes not in the diesel as the boat bounced around when the tank is not 
full.  There was no electric fuel pump so you had to manually bleed the system 
to get the air out.  One thing I really like about the Universal with the 
electric fuel pump in my current boat is those air bubbles will be purged by 
the system if the fuel pump is left on with the engine not running.   Dave

S/V Aries
1990 C 34+
New London, CT



> On Sep 28, 2021, at 8:47 AM, Matthew via CnC-List  
> wrote:
> 
> Is your friend certain of the cause?  My Westerbeke also does not like to 
> start after bouncing around in the big waves (especially following a 
> knock-down).  My diesel mechanic (Andy H) has been thinking about the cause 
> for years.  It is not a clogged filter problem in our case.  Fortunately, I 
> have always been able to get it started, but it takes a lot of turning over.  
> Good thing I have sufficient battery reserve.
>  
> From: Bill Coleman via CnC-List  <mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> 
> Sent: Monday, September 27, 2021 5:44 PM
> To: 'Stus-List' mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>>
> Cc: Bill Coleman mailto:colt...@gmail.com>>
> Subject: Stus-List Re: Fuel pump
>  
> This is the second boat I have sprung for that double Racor.
> A friend of mine finished up a race in Buffalo  with a 30Kt West wind and his 
> engine wouldn’t start.  He had a hell of a time getting in  out of the waves 
> without something bad happening. After hearing his story,  (Clogged filter, 
> of course)  I thought, I don’t want that to happen to me – and I replaced 
> mine. Engine starts to stutter, check the gauge, and flip the handle to the 
> clean filter and keep on going.
>  
>  
> Bill Coleman
> Entrada, Erie, PA
>  
>  
> Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with 
> the costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use 
> PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray 
> <https://www.paypal.me/stumurray>  Thanks - Stu

Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Re: Fuel pump

[Matthew via CnC-List]

Is your friend certain of the cause?  My Westerbeke also does not like to start 
after bouncing around in the big waves (especially following a knock-down).  My 
diesel mechanic (Andy H) has been thinking about the cause for years.  It is 
not a clogged filter problem in our case.  Fortunately, I have always been able 
to get it started, but it takes a lot of turning over.  Good thing I have 
sufficient battery reserve.

 

From: Bill Coleman via CnC-List  
Sent: Monday, September 27, 2021 5:44 PM
To: 'Stus-List' 
Cc: Bill Coleman 
Subject: Stus-List Re: Fuel pump

 

This is the second boat I have sprung for that double Racor.

A friend of mine finished up a race in Buffalo  with a 30Kt West wind and his 
engine wouldn’t start.  He had a hell of a time getting in  out of the waves 
without something bad happening. After hearing his story,  (Clogged filter, of 
course)  I thought, I don’t want that to happen to me – and I replaced mine. 
Engine starts to stutter, check the gauge, and flip the handle to the clean 
filter and keep on going.

 

 

Bill Coleman

Entrada, Erie, PA

 

 

Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Re: Fuel pump

[Bill Coleman via CnC-List]

Hey, ya want to make it back to port, ya gotta pay the price – 

 

If anything’s gonna happen, it’s gonna happen out there!

 

I think I only paid around 6 or 650 at the time, probably with a discount – 

Watch for them on FleaBay.

 

 

Bill Coleman

Entrada, Erie, PA

 

 

 

From: David Knecht via CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com] 
Sent: Monday, September 27, 2021 6:02 PM
To: CnC CnC discussion list
Cc: David Knecht
Subject: Stus-List Re: Fuel pump

 

That makes sense.  I thought it was two filters in series.  I did not realize 
it was switchable.  Makes sense but 4x the price (Defender $200 vs. 900)?  
Seems excessive.  Dave

 

S/V Aries

1990 C 34+

New London, CT








On Sep 27, 2021, at 5:43 PM, Bill Coleman via CnC-List  
wrote:

 

This is the second boat I have sprung for that double Racor.

A friend of mine finished up a race in Buffalo  with a 30Kt West wind and his 
engine wouldn’t start.  He had a hell of a time getting in  out of the waves 
without something bad happening. After hearing his story,  (Clogged filter, of 
course)  I thought, I don’t want that to happen to me – and I replaced mine. 
Engine starts to stutter, check the gauge, and flip the handle to the clean 
filter and keep on going.

 

 

Bill Coleman

Entrada, Erie, PA

 

 

 

From: David Knecht via CnC-List [ <mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com> 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com] 
Sent: Monday, September 27, 2021 5:17 PM
To: CnC CnC discussion list
Cc: David Knecht
Subject: Stus-List Re: Fuel pump

 

Curious why you went with the double 500 rather than the single?  I was not 
sure what you gain with that.  Dave

 

S/V Aries

1990 C 34+

New London, CT









On Sep 27, 2021, at 4:15 PM, Bill Coleman via CnC-List < 
<mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com> cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

 

I was thinking the same thing when this first came up, but then I found a Racor 
diagram and it showed the pump before the filter,

Now, I just did the same search, and found this,

 
<https://www.parker.com/literature/Racor/Tech_Install/15335_500MA_Marine_Turbines.pdf>
 
https://www.parker.com/literature/Racor/Tech_Install/15335_500MA_Marine_Turbines.pdf

 

where it shows both, only with the caveat that the pump will emulsify the water 
into the fuel, and won’t spin out in the turbine – so they recommend it be on 
the suction side.

I have the double 500, and it is on the suction side.

 

 

Bill Coleman

Entrada, Erie, PA

 

 

 

From: David Knecht via CnC-List [ <mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com> 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com] 
Sent: Monday, September 27, 2021 3:19 PM
To: CnC CnC discussion list
Cc: David Knecht
Subject: Stus-List Re: Fuel pump

 

Hi Josh- I was looking at new Racor filter units and this was the information 
Defender provides.  That sounds like the reverse of your recommendation?







Turbine Series filter assemblies are designed to be installed on the vacuum 
side of the fuel transfer pump for best efficiency and protect precision engine 
components from dirt, rust, algae, asphaltines, varnishes, and especially 
water, which is prevalent in engine fuels.







Racor’s system diagram is the same: fuel tank, Racor, Lift pump, secondary 
filter, engine

 

S/V Aries

1990 C 34+

New London, CT










On Sep 23, 2021, at 10:37 AM, Josh Muckley via CnC-List < 
<mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com> cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

 

I'm late to this discussion, sorry.  If you have an electric fuel pump it 
should be connected before the racor.  Suck directly from the tank and as close 
to the tank as possible, discharge into the racor.  This eliminates the chance 
of a vacuum leak in the racor or anywhere else downstream of the pump since 
down stream is pressurized.

 

Our era of boats were typically equipped with 200FG model racors.  
Glass/plastic or metal bowl for diesel.  Metal bowl only for gasoline.  I found 
venting to be a PIA.  I've shared this before but here is a video that includes 
a mod for easier venting.  This mod requires drilling and tapping the racor 
head.

 

 <https://youtu.be/H-GI38vE4hQ> https://youtu.be/H-GI38vE4hQ

 

Josh Muckley

S/V Sea Hawk 

1989 C 37+

Solomons, MD

 

Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --<https://www.paypal.me/stumurray> 
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

 

Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --<https://www.paypal.me/stumurray> 
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

 

Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Re: Fuel pump

[David Knecht via CnC-List]

That makes sense.  I thought it was two filters in series.  I did not realize 
it was switchable.  Makes sense but 4x the price (Defender $200 vs. 900)?  
Seems excessive.  Dave

S/V Aries
1990 C 34+
New London, CT



> On Sep 27, 2021, at 5:43 PM, Bill Coleman via CnC-List 
>  wrote:
> 
> This is the second boat I have sprung for that double Racor.
> A friend of mine finished up a race in Buffalo  with a 30Kt West wind and his 
> engine wouldn’t start.  He had a hell of a time getting in  out of the waves 
> without something bad happening. After hearing his story,  (Clogged filter, 
> of course)  I thought, I don’t want that to happen to me – and I replaced 
> mine. Engine starts to stutter, check the gauge, and flip the handle to the 
> clean filter and keep on going.
>  
>  
> Bill Coleman
> Entrada, Erie, PA
>  
>  
>  
> From: David Knecht via CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
> <mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>] 
> Sent: Monday, September 27, 2021 5:17 PM
> To: CnC CnC discussion list
> Cc: David Knecht
> Subject: Stus-List Re: Fuel pump
>  
> Curious why you went with the double 500 rather than the single?  I was not 
> sure what you gain with that.  Dave
>  
> S/V Aries
> 1990 C 34+
> New London, CT
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Sep 27, 2021, at 4:15 PM, Bill Coleman via CnC-List  <mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:
>  
> I was thinking the same thing when this first came up, but then I found a 
> Racor diagram and it showed the pump before the filter,
> Now, I just did the same search, and found this,
> https://www.parker.com/literature/Racor/Tech_Install/15335_500MA_Marine_Turbines.pdf
>  
> <https://www.parker.com/literature/Racor/Tech_Install/15335_500MA_Marine_Turbines.pdf>
>  
> where it shows both, only with the caveat that the pump will emulsify the 
> water into the fuel, and won’t spin out in the turbine – so they recommend it 
> be on the suction side.
> I have the double 500, and it is on the suction side.
>  
>  
> Bill Coleman
> Entrada, Erie, PA
>  
>  
>  
> From: David Knecht via CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
> <mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>] 
> Sent: Monday, September 27, 2021 3:19 PM
> To: CnC CnC discussion list
> Cc: David Knecht
> Subject: Stus-List Re: Fuel pump
>  
> Hi Josh- I was looking at new Racor filter units and this was the information 
> Defender provides.  That sounds like the reverse of your recommendation?
> 
> 
> 
> Turbine Series filter assemblies are designed to be installed on the vacuum 
> side of the fuel transfer pump for best efficiency and protect precision 
> engine components from dirt, rust, algae, asphaltines, varnishes, and 
> especially water, which is prevalent in engine fuels.
> 
> 
> 
> Racor’s system diagram is the same: fuel tank, Racor, Lift pump, secondary 
> filter, engine
>  
> S/V Aries
> 1990 C 34+
> New London, CT
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Sep 23, 2021, at 10:37 AM, Josh Muckley via CnC-List 
> mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:
>  
> I'm late to this discussion, sorry.  If you have an electric fuel pump it 
> should be connected before the racor.  Suck directly from the tank and as 
> close to the tank as possible, discharge into the racor.  This eliminates the 
> chance of a vacuum leak in the racor or anywhere else downstream of the pump 
> since down stream is pressurized.
>  
> Our era of boats were typically equipped with 200FG model racors.  
> Glass/plastic or metal bowl for diesel.  Metal bowl only for gasoline.  I 
> found venting to be a PIA.  I've shared this before but here is a video that 
> includes a mod for easier venting.  This mod requires drilling and tapping 
> the racor head.
>  
> https://youtu.be/H-GI38vE4hQ <https://youtu.be/H-GI38vE4hQ>
>  
> Josh Muckley
> S/V Sea Hawk 
> 1989 C 37+
> Solomons, MD
>  
> Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with 
> the costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use 
> PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray 
> <https://www.paypal.me/stumurray>  Thanks - Stu
>  
> Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with 
> the costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use 
> PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray 
> <https://www.paypal.me/stumurray>  Thanks - Stu

Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Re: Fuel pump

[Bill Coleman via CnC-List]

Just to be clear Dave, I AM agreeing with you.

 

From: David Knecht via CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com] 
Sent: Monday, September 27, 2021 5:32 PM
To: CnC CnC discussion list
Cc: David Knecht
Subject: Stus-List Re: Fuel pump

 

On page 27 of this link:

https://www.racorstore.com/PDF/7529FuelFiltrationSystems.pdf

 

They only show one configuration for systems like ours with a primary and 
secondary and that is the lift pump after the primary:

Primary (Pre-) Fuel/Water Separator For Vacuum Applications And Final Fuel For 
Pressure Applications
Fuel is drawn out of the fuel reservoir by the lift pump into and
out of the pre-fuel filter/water separator. The fuel is pre-filtered through a 
10 to 30 micron rated filter which also removes harmful water, thereby 
protecting the lift pump and injection system. The lift pump pressurizes the 
pre-filtered fuel into the final filter. Fuel is
then filtered by a 1 to 7 micron rated filter, ensuring purified fuel is 
delivered. The combination filtration system design provides superior 
protection for heavy-duty applications where high levels of contamination and 
high volumes of fuel require a high filter capacity. 

S/V Aries

1990 C 34+

New London, CT








On Sep 27, 2021, at 4:15 PM, Bill Coleman via CnC-List  
wrote:

 

I was thinking the same thing when this first came up, but then I found a Racor 
diagram and it showed the pump before the filter,

Now, I just did the same search, and found this,

 
<https://www.parker.com/literature/Racor/Tech_Install/15335_500MA_Marine_Turbines.pdf>
 
https://www.parker.com/literature/Racor/Tech_Install/15335_500MA_Marine_Turbines.pdf

 

where it shows both, only with the caveat that the pump will emulsify the water 
into the fuel, and won’t spin out in the turbine – so they recommend it be on 
the suction side.

I have the double 500, and it is on the suction side.

 

 

Bill Coleman

Entrada, Erie, PA

 

 

 

From: David Knecht via CnC-List [ <mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com> 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com] 
Sent: Monday, September 27, 2021 3:19 PM
To: CnC CnC discussion list
Cc: David Knecht
Subject: Stus-List Re: Fuel pump

 

Hi Josh- I was looking at new Racor filter units and this was the information 
Defender provides.  That sounds like the reverse of your recommendation?






Turbine Series filter assemblies are designed to be installed on the vacuum 
side of the fuel transfer pump for best efficiency and protect precision engine 
components from dirt, rust, algae, asphaltines, varnishes, and especially 
water, which is prevalent in engine fuels.






Racor’s system diagram is the same: fuel tank, Racor, Lift pump, secondary 
filter, engine

 

S/V Aries

1990 C 34+

New London, CT









On Sep 23, 2021, at 10:37 AM, Josh Muckley via CnC-List < 
<mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com> cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

 

I'm late to this discussion, sorry.  If you have an electric fuel pump it 
should be connected before the racor.  Suck directly from the tank and as close 
to the tank as possible, discharge into the racor.  This eliminates the chance 
of a vacuum leak in the racor or anywhere else downstream of the pump since 
down stream is pressurized.

 

Our era of boats were typically equipped with 200FG model racors.  
Glass/plastic or metal bowl for diesel.  Metal bowl only for gasoline.  I found 
venting to be a PIA.  I've shared this before but here is a video that includes 
a mod for easier venting.  This mod requires drilling and tapping the racor 
head.

 

 <https://youtu.be/H-GI38vE4hQ> https://youtu.be/H-GI38vE4hQ

 

Josh Muckley

S/V Sea Hawk 

1989 C 37+

Solomons, MD

 

Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --<https://www.paypal.me/stumurray> 
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

 

Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Re: Fuel pump

[David Knecht via CnC-List]

Anyone tried one of these Chinese knockoffs?

https://www.amazon.com/500FG-Diesel-Marine-Filter-Separator/dp/B075FLD5RB/ref=pd_lpo_3?pd_rd_i=B075FLD5RB=1#customerReviews
 
<https://www.amazon.com/500FG-Diesel-Marine-Filter-Separator/dp/B075FLD5RB/ref=pd_lpo_3?pd_rd_i=B075FLD5RB=1#customerReviews>

S/V Aries
1990 C 34+
New London, CT



> On Sep 27, 2021, at 4:15 PM, Bill Coleman via CnC-List 
>  wrote:
> 
> I was thinking the same thing when this first came up, but then I found a 
> Racor diagram and it showed the pump before the filter,
> Now, I just did the same search, and found this,
> https://www.parker.com/literature/Racor/Tech_Install/15335_500MA_Marine_Turbines.pdf
>  
> <https://www.parker.com/literature/Racor/Tech_Install/15335_500MA_Marine_Turbines.pdf>
>  
> where it shows both, only with the caveat that the pump will emulsify the 
> water into the fuel, and won’t spin out in the turbine – so they recommend it 
> be on the suction side.
> I have the double 500, and it is on the suction side.
>  
>  
> Bill Coleman
> Entrada, Erie, PA
>  
>  
>  
> From: David Knecht via CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
> <mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>] 
> Sent: Monday, September 27, 2021 3:19 PM
> To: CnC CnC discussion list
> Cc: David Knecht
> Subject: Stus-List Re: Fuel pump
>  
> Hi Josh- I was looking at new Racor filter units and this was the information 
> Defender provides.  That sounds like the reverse of your recommendation?
> 
> 
> Turbine Series filter assemblies are designed to be installed on the vacuum 
> side of the fuel transfer pump for best efficiency and protect precision 
> engine components from dirt, rust, algae, asphaltines, varnishes, and 
> especially water, which is prevalent in engine fuels.
> 
> 
> Racor’s system diagram is the same: fuel tank, Racor, Lift pump, secondary 
> filter, engine
>  
> S/V Aries
> 1990 C 34+
> New London, CT
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Sep 23, 2021, at 10:37 AM, Josh Muckley via CnC-List 
> mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:
>  
> I'm late to this discussion, sorry.  If you have an electric fuel pump it 
> should be connected before the racor.  Suck directly from the tank and as 
> close to the tank as possible, discharge into the racor.  This eliminates the 
> chance of a vacuum leak in the racor or anywhere else downstream of the pump 
> since down stream is pressurized.
>  
> Our era of boats were typically equipped with 200FG model racors.  
> Glass/plastic or metal bowl for diesel.  Metal bowl only for gasoline.  I 
> found venting to be a PIA.  I've shared this before but here is a video that 
> includes a mod for easier venting.  This mod requires drilling and tapping 
> the racor head.
>  
> https://youtu.be/H-GI38vE4hQ <https://youtu.be/H-GI38vE4hQ>
>  
> Josh Muckley
> S/V Sea Hawk 
> 1989 C 37+
> Solomons, MD
>  
> Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with 
> the costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use 
> PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray 
> <https://www.paypal.me/stumurray>  Thanks - Stu

Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Re: Fuel pump

[Bill Coleman via CnC-List]

This is the second boat I have sprung for that double Racor.

A friend of mine finished up a race in Buffalo  with a 30Kt West wind and his 
engine wouldn’t start.  He had a hell of a time getting in  out of the waves 
without something bad happening. After hearing his story,  (Clogged filter, of 
course)  I thought, I don’t want that to happen to me – and I replaced mine. 
Engine starts to stutter, check the gauge, and flip the handle to the clean 
filter and keep on going.

 

 

Bill Coleman

Entrada, Erie, PA

 

 

 

From: David Knecht via CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com] 
Sent: Monday, September 27, 2021 5:17 PM
To: CnC CnC discussion list
Cc: David Knecht
Subject: Stus-List Re: Fuel pump

 

Curious why you went with the double 500 rather than the single?  I was not 
sure what you gain with that.  Dave

 

S/V Aries

1990 C 34+

New London, CT








On Sep 27, 2021, at 4:15 PM, Bill Coleman via CnC-List  
wrote:

 

I was thinking the same thing when this first came up, but then I found a Racor 
diagram and it showed the pump before the filter,

Now, I just did the same search, and found this,

 
<https://www.parker.com/literature/Racor/Tech_Install/15335_500MA_Marine_Turbines.pdf>
 
https://www.parker.com/literature/Racor/Tech_Install/15335_500MA_Marine_Turbines.pdf

 

where it shows both, only with the caveat that the pump will emulsify the water 
into the fuel, and won’t spin out in the turbine – so they recommend it be on 
the suction side.

I have the double 500, and it is on the suction side.

 

 

Bill Coleman

Entrada, Erie, PA

 

 

 

From: David Knecht via CnC-List [ <mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com> 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com] 
Sent: Monday, September 27, 2021 3:19 PM
To: CnC CnC discussion list
Cc: David Knecht
Subject: Stus-List Re: Fuel pump

 

Hi Josh- I was looking at new Racor filter units and this was the information 
Defender provides.  That sounds like the reverse of your recommendation?






Turbine Series filter assemblies are designed to be installed on the vacuum 
side of the fuel transfer pump for best efficiency and protect precision engine 
components from dirt, rust, algae, asphaltines, varnishes, and especially 
water, which is prevalent in engine fuels.






Racor’s system diagram is the same: fuel tank, Racor, Lift pump, secondary 
filter, engine

 

S/V Aries

1990 C 34+

New London, CT









On Sep 23, 2021, at 10:37 AM, Josh Muckley via CnC-List < 
<mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com> cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

 

I'm late to this discussion, sorry.  If you have an electric fuel pump it 
should be connected before the racor.  Suck directly from the tank and as close 
to the tank as possible, discharge into the racor.  This eliminates the chance 
of a vacuum leak in the racor or anywhere else downstream of the pump since 
down stream is pressurized.

 

Our era of boats were typically equipped with 200FG model racors.  
Glass/plastic or metal bowl for diesel.  Metal bowl only for gasoline.  I found 
venting to be a PIA.  I've shared this before but here is a video that includes 
a mod for easier venting.  This mod requires drilling and tapping the racor 
head.

 

 <https://youtu.be/H-GI38vE4hQ> https://youtu.be/H-GI38vE4hQ

 

Josh Muckley

S/V Sea Hawk 

1989 C 37+

Solomons, MD

 

Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --<https://www.paypal.me/stumurray> 
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

 

Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Re: Fuel pump

[David Knecht via CnC-List]

On page 27 of this link:
https://www.racorstore.com/PDF/7529FuelFiltrationSystems.pdf

They only show one configuration for systems like ours with a primary and 
secondary and that is the lift pump after the primary:
Primary (Pre-) Fuel/Water Separator For Vacuum Applications And Final Fuel For 
Pressure Applications
Fuel is drawn out of the fuel reservoir by the lift pump into and
out of the pre-fuel filter/water separator. The fuel is pre-filtered through a 
10 to 30 micron rated filter which also removes harmful water, thereby 
protecting the lift pump and injection system. The lift pump pressurizes the 
pre-filtered fuel into the final filter. Fuel is
then filtered by a 1 to 7 micron rated filter, ensuring purified fuel is 
delivered. The combination filtration system design provides superior 
protection for heavy-duty applications where high levels of contamination and 
high volumes of fuel require a high filter capacity. 

S/V Aries
1990 C 34+
New London, CT



> On Sep 27, 2021, at 4:15 PM, Bill Coleman via CnC-List 
>  wrote:
> 
> I was thinking the same thing when this first came up, but then I found a 
> Racor diagram and it showed the pump before the filter,
> Now, I just did the same search, and found this,
> https://www.parker.com/literature/Racor/Tech_Install/15335_500MA_Marine_Turbines.pdf
>  
> <https://www.parker.com/literature/Racor/Tech_Install/15335_500MA_Marine_Turbines.pdf>
>  
> where it shows both, only with the caveat that the pump will emulsify the 
> water into the fuel, and won’t spin out in the turbine – so they recommend it 
> be on the suction side.
> I have the double 500, and it is on the suction side.
>  
>  
> Bill Coleman
> Entrada, Erie, PA
>  
>  
>  
> From: David Knecht via CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
> <mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>] 
> Sent: Monday, September 27, 2021 3:19 PM
> To: CnC CnC discussion list
> Cc: David Knecht
> Subject: Stus-List Re: Fuel pump
>  
> Hi Josh- I was looking at new Racor filter units and this was the information 
> Defender provides.  That sounds like the reverse of your recommendation?
> 
> 
> Turbine Series filter assemblies are designed to be installed on the vacuum 
> side of the fuel transfer pump for best efficiency and protect precision 
> engine components from dirt, rust, algae, asphaltines, varnishes, and 
> especially water, which is prevalent in engine fuels.
> 
> 
> Racor’s system diagram is the same: fuel tank, Racor, Lift pump, secondary 
> filter, engine
>  
> S/V Aries
> 1990 C 34+
> New London, CT
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Sep 23, 2021, at 10:37 AM, Josh Muckley via CnC-List 
> mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:
>  
> I'm late to this discussion, sorry.  If you have an electric fuel pump it 
> should be connected before the racor.  Suck directly from the tank and as 
> close to the tank as possible, discharge into the racor.  This eliminates the 
> chance of a vacuum leak in the racor or anywhere else downstream of the pump 
> since down stream is pressurized.
>  
> Our era of boats were typically equipped with 200FG model racors.  
> Glass/plastic or metal bowl for diesel.  Metal bowl only for gasoline.  I 
> found venting to be a PIA.  I've shared this before but here is a video that 
> includes a mod for easier venting.  This mod requires drilling and tapping 
> the racor head.
>  
> https://youtu.be/H-GI38vE4hQ <https://youtu.be/H-GI38vE4hQ>
>  
> Josh Muckley
> S/V Sea Hawk 
> 1989 C 37+
> Solomons, MD
>  
> Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with 
> the costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use 
> PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray 
> <https://www.paypal.me/stumurray>  Thanks - Stu

Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Re: Fuel pump

[David Knecht via CnC-List]

Curious why you went with the double 500 rather than the single?  I was not 
sure what you gain with that.  Dave

S/V Aries
1990 C 34+
New London, CT



> On Sep 27, 2021, at 4:15 PM, Bill Coleman via CnC-List 
>  wrote:
> 
> I was thinking the same thing when this first came up, but then I found a 
> Racor diagram and it showed the pump before the filter,
> Now, I just did the same search, and found this,
> https://www.parker.com/literature/Racor/Tech_Install/15335_500MA_Marine_Turbines.pdf
>  
> <https://www.parker.com/literature/Racor/Tech_Install/15335_500MA_Marine_Turbines.pdf>
>  
> where it shows both, only with the caveat that the pump will emulsify the 
> water into the fuel, and won’t spin out in the turbine – so they recommend it 
> be on the suction side.
> I have the double 500, and it is on the suction side.
>  
>  
> Bill Coleman
> Entrada, Erie, PA
>  
>  
>  
> From: David Knecht via CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
> <mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>] 
> Sent: Monday, September 27, 2021 3:19 PM
> To: CnC CnC discussion list
> Cc: David Knecht
> Subject: Stus-List Re: Fuel pump
>  
> Hi Josh- I was looking at new Racor filter units and this was the information 
> Defender provides.  That sounds like the reverse of your recommendation?
> 
> 
> Turbine Series filter assemblies are designed to be installed on the vacuum 
> side of the fuel transfer pump for best efficiency and protect precision 
> engine components from dirt, rust, algae, asphaltines, varnishes, and 
> especially water, which is prevalent in engine fuels.
> 
> 
> Racor’s system diagram is the same: fuel tank, Racor, Lift pump, secondary 
> filter, engine
>  
> S/V Aries
> 1990 C 34+
> New London, CT
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Sep 23, 2021, at 10:37 AM, Josh Muckley via CnC-List 
> mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:
>  
> I'm late to this discussion, sorry.  If you have an electric fuel pump it 
> should be connected before the racor.  Suck directly from the tank and as 
> close to the tank as possible, discharge into the racor.  This eliminates the 
> chance of a vacuum leak in the racor or anywhere else downstream of the pump 
> since down stream is pressurized.
>  
> Our era of boats were typically equipped with 200FG model racors.  
> Glass/plastic or metal bowl for diesel.  Metal bowl only for gasoline.  I 
> found venting to be a PIA.  I've shared this before but here is a video that 
> includes a mod for easier venting.  This mod requires drilling and tapping 
> the racor head.
>  
> https://youtu.be/H-GI38vE4hQ <https://youtu.be/H-GI38vE4hQ>
>  
> Josh Muckley
> S/V Sea Hawk 
> 1989 C 37+
> Solomons, MD
>  
> Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with 
> the costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use 
> PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray 
> <https://www.paypal.me/stumurray>  Thanks - Stu

Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Re: Fuel pump

[Bill Coleman via CnC-List]

I was thinking the same thing when this first came up, but then I found a Racor 
diagram and it showed the pump before the filter,

Now, I just did the same search, and found this,

https://www.parker.com/literature/Racor/Tech_Install/15335_500MA 
<https://www.parker.com/literature/Racor/Tech_Install/15335_500MA_Marine_Turbines.pdf>
 _Marine_Turbines.pdf

 

where it shows both, only with the caveat that the pump will emulsify the water 
into the fuel, and won’t spin out in the turbine – so they recommend it be on 
the suction side.

I have the double 500, and it is on the suction side.

 

 

Bill Coleman

Entrada, Erie, PA

 

 

 

From: David Knecht via CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com] 
Sent: Monday, September 27, 2021 3:19 PM
To: CnC CnC discussion list
Cc: David Knecht
Subject: Stus-List Re: Fuel pump

 

Hi Josh- I was looking at new Racor filter units and this was the information 
Defender provides.  That sounds like the reverse of your recommendation?





Turbine Series filter assemblies are designed to be installed on the vacuum 
side of the fuel transfer pump for best efficiency and protect precision engine 
components from dirt, rust, algae, asphaltines, varnishes, and especially 
water, which is prevalent in engine fuels.





Racor’s system diagram is the same: fuel tank, Racor, Lift pump, secondary 
filter, engine

 

S/V Aries

1990 C 34+

New London, CT








On Sep 23, 2021, at 10:37 AM, Josh Muckley via CnC-List  
wrote:

 

I'm late to this discussion, sorry.  If you have an electric fuel pump it 
should be connected before the racor.  Suck directly from the tank and as close 
to the tank as possible, discharge into the racor.  This eliminates the chance 
of a vacuum leak in the racor or anywhere else downstream of the pump since 
down stream is pressurized.

 

Our era of boats were typically equipped with 200FG model racors.  
Glass/plastic or metal bowl for diesel.  Metal bowl only for gasoline.  I found 
venting to be a PIA.  I've shared this before but here is a video that includes 
a mod for easier venting.  This mod requires drilling and tapping the racor 
head.

 

https://youtu.be/H-GI38vE4hQ

 

Josh Muckley

S/V Sea Hawk 

1989 C 37+

Solomons, MD

 

Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Re: Fuel pump

[David Knecht via CnC-List]

Hi Josh- I was looking at new Racor filter units and this was the information 
Defender provides.  That sounds like the reverse of your recommendation?

Turbine Series filter assemblies are designed to be installed on the vacuum 
side of the fuel transfer pump for best efficiency and protect precision engine 
components from dirt, rust, algae, asphaltines, varnishes, and especially 
water, which is prevalent in engine fuels.

Racor’s system diagram is the same: fuel tank, Racor, Lift pump, secondary 
filter, engine

S/V Aries
1990 C 34+
New London, CT



> On Sep 23, 2021, at 10:37 AM, Josh Muckley via CnC-List 
>  wrote:
> 
> I'm late to this discussion, sorry.  If you have an electric fuel pump it 
> should be connected before the racor.  Suck directly from the tank and as 
> close to the tank as possible, discharge into the racor.  This eliminates the 
> chance of a vacuum leak in the racor or anywhere else downstream of the pump 
> since down stream is pressurized.
> 
> Our era of boats were typically equipped with 200FG model racors.  
> Glass/plastic or metal bowl for diesel.  Metal bowl only for gasoline.  I 
> found venting to be a PIA.  I've shared this before but here is a video that 
> includes a mod for easier venting.  This mod requires drilling and tapping 
> the racor head.
> 
> https://youtu.be/H-GI38vE4hQ 
> 
> Josh Muckley
> S/V Sea Hawk 
> 1989 C 37+
> Solomons, MD
> 
> On Thu, Sep 23, 2021, 10:14 David Knecht via CnC-List  > wrote:
> Sorry if the start of the thread was lost somewhere.  Quick summary: The 
> problem was the engine twice ran for some time and then died and would not 
> start.  When I checked the Racor later, it was half full of fuel so diagnosis 
> was either electric fuel pump not working, plugged pickup tube or vacuum leak 
> somewhere so it could not pull fuel from tank.  I have been chasing those 
> down and now confident the pump and pickup are working, and vacuum leak is 
> either in fuel line or Racor holder.  That is why I decided to replace fuel 
> lines when several listers suggested that as most likely culprit (from past 
> experience with the same problem).  Dave
> 
> S/V Aries
> 1990 C 34+
> New London, CT
> 
> 
> 
>> On Sep 23, 2021, at 10:02 AM, Chris Riedinger via CnC-List 
>> mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:
>> 
>> Also wondering if 'dont understand' goes a little deeper here
>> 
>> 
>> Do you mean the mechanical pump on your block or? 
>> 
>> Why are you chasing a fuel pump issue? Do you have a no-start? A boat dying 
>> after a certain amount of time? Etc etc 
>> 
>> On Wed, Sep 22, 2021, 10:19 AM Dave S via CnC-List > > wrote:
>> If there’s only one terminal on the pump itself then the metal chassis must 
>> be the ground. 
>> 
>> If you are referring to a schematic the ground wire may not be illustrated. 
>> 
>> Dave 
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>> > On Sep 22, 2021, at 10:16 AM, David Knecht via CnC-List 
>> > mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:
>> > 
>> > I am trying to diagnose fuel issue. I dont understand pump wiring. There 
>> > appears to be only one wire to pump. Where is it grounded?
>> > 
>> > Sent from my iPhone
>> > Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with 
>> > the costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use 
>> > PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray 
>> >   Thanks - Stu
>> Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with 
>> the costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use 
>> PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray 
>>   Thanks - Stu
>> Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with 
>> the costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use 
>> PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray 
>>   Thanks - Stu
> 
> Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with 
> the costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use 
> PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray 
>   Thanks - Stu
> Thanks to all of the subscribers that 
> contributed to the list to help with the costs involved.  If you want to show 
> your support to the list - use PayPal to send contribution --   
> https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Re: Fuel pump

[Bill Coleman via CnC-List]

I seem to recall Racor recommends a check valve in the fuel line between the 
tank and the pump, if the tank is lower than the filter. Having said that, I 
don’t think mine has any check valves.

 

 

Bill Coleman

Entrada, Erie, PA

 

 

 

From: David Knecht via CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com] 
Sent: Monday, September 27, 2021 1:47 PM
To: CnC CnC discussion list
Cc: David Knecht
Subject: Stus-List Re: Fuel pump

 

Update on fuel issues: I spent a few hours more on the fuel system last weekend 
and things seem to be working, but unfortunately I am not sure what fixed it or 
even if it is fixed.  I replaced several more fuel lines and removed the vacuum 
gauge I had installed between the tank and the Racor just to simplify the 
possible vacuum leak points.  All the hoses looked good, but apparently you 
can’t always tell.  With the hose end heated in hot water trick, I was able to 
get the new hose on, but it was still a real battle in tight places.  The 
fittings were variable in size and style and some were really challenging.  
After completing the connections, I turned on the fuel pump, expecting it to 
pull fuel from the tank and fill the Racor bowl.  It did not.  So I opened the 
Racor bowl, filled it and tested again, and the bowl stayed full.  I pulled the 
fuel level sensor so I could see inside the tank, and I could see fuel coming 
out of the return tube from the engine.  That told me I was in fact pumping 
fuel.  I then ran the engine for 30 min and all seemed well.  

I am hoping it is fixed but it is frustrating that I don’t know what was wrong. 
 Apparently, my “does the pump fill the bowl" test was not the correct way to 
assess function.  Is it possible that when the pump is full of air it can’t 
pull enough vacuum to feed the Racor?  Also, given that the original problem 
occurred twice a week apart, with it working fine for hours in between has me 
worried it will occur again.  Intermittent problems are the worst!  Fingers 
crossed. 

 I plan to replace the Racor with a newer model with a gauge built into the lid 
before next season.  I found new filters for my 200 Turbine series, but it 
seems they are getting harder to locate.  Probably not going to run out in my 
sailing lifetime, but the newer Racors seem a decent upgrade.  Dave

 

S/V Aries

1990 C 34+

New London, CT








On Sep 25, 2021, at 3:36 PM, Korbey Hunt via CnC-List  
wrote:

 

When installing a hose to nipple fitting i recomnend using a hair dryer to warm 
the hose and liquid dish soap to lube the nipple barb.   

 

Get Outlook for Android <https://aka.ms/AAb9ysg> 

  _  

From: cenelson via CnC-List 
Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2021 3:09:10 PM
To: Stus-List 
Cc: cenelson 
Subject: Stus-List Re: Fuel pump 

 

Had a similar problem to yours several years ago. After doing most of what you 
have done, my diesel mechanic suggested just replacing the Racor MA 500(?) top 
plate since even a little over tightening can push the middle down enough that 
the O-ring on the circumference will leak enough that after running for a while 
the air inside it gets into the fuel lines.  

 

This was a cheap enough thing to do that I did it—along with a few other 
‘fixes’ and the problem went away. 

 

Since it was not the only change I made, I can’t be certain that the new top 
plate solved the problem or if it was something else. 

 

Note I am pretty sure that the instructions for the Racor say to only hand 
tighten this plate or something similar—I now know why! 

 

Given how little extra tightening it would take at the Center to deflect the 
circumference/O-ring joint enough to suck air in, (probably a few microns could 
break the vacuum seal) and over time you have air bubbles that get to the 
engine or at least prevent fuel from getting to the engine.

 

FWIW,

 

Charlie Nelson


Sent 
<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fapps.apple.com%2Fus%2Fapp%2Faol-news-email-weather-video%2Fid646100661=04%7C01%7C%7C4c63e0fcb6e74b16a67e08d97edecee9%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C637680317687570152%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000=pXd69QGBqdzp8xQNHtBbEb4CypY8i%2Fmkeu8qWLgiw6w%3D=0>
  from the all new AOL app for iOS

On Thursday, September 23, 2021, 12:36 PM, David Knecht via CnC-List 
 wrote:

I meant bypass the Racor, turn on the pump and collect fuel into a secondary 
container to test.  I agree that I would not run the engine that way.  I am 
presuming that the flow of fuel through the filter should be a good test of the 
system since the problem was I was getting air into the primary Racor holder, 
so a vacuum leak likely somewhere.  Dave 

 

S/V Aries

1990 C 34+

New London, CT


 





On Sep 23, 2021, at 9:53 AM, Neil Andersen  wrote:

 

I would think that risky.  If the Racor is the issue because it is doing its 
job and there is particulate matter coming from the tank, bypassi

Stus-List Re: Fuel pump

[David Knecht via CnC-List]

Update on fuel issues: I spent a few hours more on the fuel system last weekend 
and things seem to be working, but unfortunately I am not sure what fixed it or 
even if it is fixed.  I replaced several more fuel lines and removed the vacuum 
gauge I had installed between the tank and the Racor just to simplify the 
possible vacuum leak points.  All the hoses looked good, but apparently you 
can’t always tell.  With the hose end heated in hot water trick, I was able to 
get the new hose on, but it was still a real battle in tight places.  The 
fittings were variable in size and style and some were really challenging.  
After completing the connections, I turned on the fuel pump, expecting it to 
pull fuel from the tank and fill the Racor bowl.  It did not.  So I opened the 
Racor bowl, filled it and tested again, and the bowl stayed full.  I pulled the 
fuel level sensor so I could see inside the tank, and I could see fuel coming 
out of the return tube from the engine.  That told me I was in fact pumping 
fuel.  I then ran the engine for 30 min and all seemed well.  
I am hoping it is fixed but it is frustrating that I don’t know what was wrong. 
 Apparently, my “does the pump fill the bowl" test was not the correct way to 
assess function.  Is it possible that when the pump is full of air it can’t 
pull enough vacuum to feed the Racor?  Also, given that the original problem 
occurred twice a week apart, with it working fine for hours in between has me 
worried it will occur again.  Intermittent problems are the worst!  Fingers 
crossed. 
 I plan to replace the Racor with a newer model with a gauge built into the lid 
before next season.  I found new filters for my 200 Turbine series, but it 
seems they are getting harder to locate.  Probably not going to run out in my 
sailing lifetime, but the newer Racors seem a decent upgrade.  Dave

S/V Aries
1990 C 34+
New London, CT



> On Sep 25, 2021, at 3:36 PM, Korbey Hunt via CnC-List  
> wrote:
> 
> When installing a hose to nipple fitting i recomnend using a hair dryer to 
> warm the hose and liquid dish soap to lube the nipple barb.  
> 
> Get Outlook for Android <https://aka.ms/AAb9ysg>
> From: cenelson via CnC-List 
> Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2021 3:09:10 PM
> To: Stus-List 
> Cc: cenelson 
> Subject: Stus-List Re: Fuel pump
>  
> Had a similar problem to yours several years ago. After doing most of what 
> you have done, my diesel mechanic suggested just replacing the Racor MA 
> 500(?) top plate since even a little over tightening can push the middle down 
> enough that the O-ring on the circumference will leak enough that after 
> running for a while the air inside it gets into the fuel lines. 
> 
> This was a cheap enough thing to do that I did it—along with a few other 
> ‘fixes’ and the problem went away. 
> 
> Since it was not the only change I made, I can’t be certain that the new top 
> plate solved the problem or if it was something else. 
> 
> Note I am pretty sure that the instructions for the Racor say to only hand 
> tighten this plate or something similar—I now know why! 
> 
> Given how little extra tightening it would take at the Center to deflect the 
> circumference/O-ring joint enough to suck air in, (probably a few microns 
> could break the vacuum seal) and over time you have air bubbles that get to 
> the engine or at least prevent fuel from getting to the engine.
> 
> FWIW,
> 
> Charlie Nelson
> 
> 
> Sent from the all new AOL app for iOS 
> <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fapps.apple.com%2Fus%2Fapp%2Faol-news-email-weather-video%2Fid646100661=04%7C01%7C%7C4c63e0fcb6e74b16a67e08d97edecee9%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C637680317687570152%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000=pXd69QGBqdzp8xQNHtBbEb4CypY8i%2Fmkeu8qWLgiw6w%3D=0>
> 
> On Thursday, September 23, 2021, 12:36 PM, David Knecht via CnC-List 
>  wrote:
> 
> I meant bypass the Racor, turn on the pump and collect fuel into a secondary 
> container to test.  I agree that I would not run the engine that way.  I am 
> presuming that the flow of fuel through the filter should be a good test of 
> the system since the problem was I was getting air into the primary Racor 
> holder, so a vacuum leak likely somewhere.  Dave
> 
> S/V Aries
> 1990 C 34+
> New London, CT
> 
> 
> 
>> On Sep 23, 2021, at 9:53 AM, Neil Andersen > <mailto:neil.eric.ander...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>> 
> 
> I would think that risky.  If the Racor is the issue because it is doing its 
> job and there is particulate matter coming from the tank, bypassing it will 
> allow the matter to get to the engine. 
> 
> Neil Andersen
> 1982 C 32, FoxFire
> Rock Hall, MD 21661
> 484

Stus-List Re: Fuel pump

[Korbey Hunt via CnC-List]

When installing a hose to nipple fitting i recomnend using a hair dryer to warm 
the hose and liquid dish soap to lube the nipple barb.

Get Outlook for Android<https://aka.ms/AAb9ysg>

From: cenelson via CnC-List 
Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2021 3:09:10 PM
To: Stus-List 
Cc: cenelson 
Subject: Stus-List Re: Fuel pump

Had a similar problem to yours several years ago. After doing most of what you 
have done, my diesel mechanic suggested just replacing the Racor MA 500(?) top 
plate since even a little over tightening can push the middle down enough that 
the O-ring on the circumference will leak enough that after running for a while 
the air inside it gets into the fuel lines.

This was a cheap enough thing to do that I did it—along with a few other 
‘fixes’ and the problem went away.

Since it was not the only change I made, I can’t be certain that the new top 
plate solved the problem or if it was something else.

Note I am pretty sure that the instructions for the Racor say to only hand 
tighten this plate or something similar—I now know why!

Given how little extra tightening it would take at the Center to deflect the 
circumference/O-ring joint enough to suck air in, (probably a few microns could 
break the vacuum seal) and over time you have air bubbles that get to the 
engine or at least prevent fuel from getting to the engine.

FWIW,

Charlie Nelson


Sent from the all new AOL app for 
iOS<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fapps.apple.com%2Fus%2Fapp%2Faol-news-email-weather-video%2Fid646100661=04%7C01%7C%7C4c63e0fcb6e74b16a67e08d97edecee9%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C637680317687570152%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000=pXd69QGBqdzp8xQNHtBbEb4CypY8i%2Fmkeu8qWLgiw6w%3D=0>


On Thursday, September 23, 2021, 12:36 PM, David Knecht via CnC-List 
 wrote:

I meant bypass the Racor, turn on the pump and collect fuel into a secondary 
container to test.  I agree that I would not run the engine that way.  I am 
presuming that the flow of fuel through the filter should be a good test of the 
system since the problem was I was getting air into the primary Racor holder, 
so a vacuum leak likely somewhere.  Dave

S/V Aries
1990 C 34+
New London, CT

[cid:i7L1TThFhPTl5P3C5ypG]

On Sep 23, 2021, at 9:53 AM, Neil Andersen 
mailto:neil.eric.ander...@gmail.com>> wrote:

I would think that risky.  If the Racor is the issue because it is doing its 
job and there is particulate matter coming from the tank, bypassing it will 
allow the matter to get to the engine.

Neil Andersen
1982 C 32, FoxFire
Rock Hall, MD 21661
484-354-8800

From: David Knecht via CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>>
Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2021 9:36:44 AM
To: CnC CnC discussion list 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>>
Cc: David Knecht mailto:davidakne...@gmail.com>>
Subject: Stus-List Re: Fuel pump

Hi Dennis- The Racor looks OK, but of course that says nothing.  I don’t know 
the Racor model but it is older since it does not have the threaded top that 
you can add a gauge to.  Since that is a more expensive alteration, I thought I 
would replace the fuel lines first and see if that fixes the problem.  If not, 
I thought I would bypass the Racor and see if it works that way and if so, 
replace the Racor itself.  Dave

S/V Aries
1990 C 34+
New London, CT



On Sep 23, 2021, at 9:31 AM, Dennis C. via CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:

What type of fuel filter do you have?  If it's a Racor MA500, the top may be 
warped or the gasket may be cracked or displaced.  Those are not infrequent 
issues with that filter.  Either condition could result in air inleakage.


--
Dennis C.
Touche' 35-1 #83
Mandeville, LA
Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   
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  Thanks - Stu


Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --  https://www.paypal.me/stumurray 
<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.paypal.me%2Fstumurray=04%7C01%7C%7C4c63e0fcb6e74b16a67e08d97edecee9%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C637680317687580146%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000=cdlAFays1s%2FIQu0AEgx

Stus-List Re: Fuel pump

[Doug via CnC-List]

Thanks Josh.You just made me realize that I need to replimb my electric pump to 
be before the 2 racors. Thats all I need is 1 more project. Doug Mountjoy sv 
Rebecca Leah C & C Landfall 39Port Orchard Yacht Club Port Orchard, WA
 Original message From: Josh Muckley via CnC-List 
 Date: 9/23/21  07:38  (GMT-08:00) To: Stus-List 
 Cc: Josh Muckley  Subject: 
Stus-List Re: Fuel pump I'm late to this discussion, sorry.  If you have an 
electric fuel pump it should be connected before the racor.  Suck directly from 
the tank and as close to the tank as possible, discharge into the racor.  This 
eliminates the chance of a vacuum leak in the racor or anywhere else downstream 
of the pump since down stream is pressurized.Our era of boats were typically 
equipped with 200FG model racors.  Glass/plastic or metal bowl for diesel.  
Metal bowl only for gasoline.  I found venting to be a PIA.  I've shared this 
before but here is a video that includes a mod for easier venting.  This mod 
requires drilling and tapping the racor head.https://youtu.be/H-GI38vE4hQJosh 
MuckleyS/V Sea Hawk 1989 C 37+Solomons, MDOn Thu, Sep 23, 2021, 10:14 David 
Knecht via CnC-List  wrote:Sorry if the start of the 
thread was lost somewhere.  Quick summary: The problem was the engine twice ran 
for some time and then died and would not start.  When I checked the Racor 
later, it was half full of fuel so diagnosis was either electric fuel pump not 
working, plugged pickup tube or vacuum leak somewhere so it could not pull fuel 
from tank.  I have been chasing those down and now confident the pump and 
pickup are working, and vacuum leak is either in fuel line or Racor holder.  
That is why I decided to replace fuel lines when several listers suggested that 
as most likely culprit (from past experience with the same problem).  Dave
S/V Aries1990 C 34+New London, CT


On Sep 23, 2021, at 10:02 AM, Chris Riedinger via CnC-List 
 wrote:Also wondering if 'dont understand' goes a little 
deeper hereDo you mean the mechanical pump on your block or? Why are you 
chasing a fuel pump issue? Do you have a no-start? A boat dying after a certain 
amount of time? Etc etc On Wed, Sep 22, 2021, 10:19 AM Dave S via CnC-List 
 wrote:If there’s only one terminal on the pump itself 
then the metal chassis must be the ground. 

If you are referring to a schematic the ground wire may not be illustrated. 

Dave 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Sep 22, 2021, at 10:16 AM, David Knecht via CnC-List 
>  wrote:
> 
> I am trying to diagnose fuel issue. I dont understand pump wiring. There 
> appears to be only one wire to pump. Where is it grounded?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with 
> the costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use 
> PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu
Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu
Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - StuThanks to 
all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the costs 
involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to send 
contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu
Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Re: Fuel pump

[cenelson via CnC-List]

Had a similar problem to yours several years ago. After doing most of what you 
have done, my diesel mechanic suggested just replacing the Racor MA 500(?) top 
plate since even a little over tightening can push the middle down enough that 
the O-ring on the circumference will leak enough that after running for a while 
the air inside it gets into the fuel lines. 
This was a cheap enough thing to do that I did it—along with a few other 
‘fixes’ and the problem went away. 
Since it was not the only change I made, I can’t be certain that the new top 
plate solved the problem or if it was something else. 
Note I am pretty sure that the instructions for the Racor say to only hand 
tighten this plate or something similar—I now know why! 
Given how little extra tightening it would take at the Center to deflect the 
circumference/O-ring joint enough to suck air in, (probably a few microns could 
break the vacuum seal) and over time you have air bubbles that get to the 
engine or at least prevent fuel from getting to the engine.
FWIW,
Charlie Nelson


Sent from the all new AOL app for iOS


On Thursday, September 23, 2021, 12:36 PM, David Knecht via CnC-List 
 wrote:

I meant bypass the Racor, turn on the pump and collect fuel into a secondary 
container to test.  I agree that I would not run the engine that way.  I am 
presuming that the flow of fuel through the filter should be a good test of the 
system since the problem was I was getting air into the primary Racor holder, 
so a vacuum leak likely somewhere.  Dave
S/V Aries1990 C 34+New London, CT


On Sep 23, 2021, at 9:53 AM, Neil Andersen  wrote:

I would think that risky.  If the Racor is the issue because it is doing its 
job and there is particulate matter coming from the tank, bypassing it will 
allow the matter to get to the engine. 
Neil Andersen1982 C 32, FoxFireRock Hall, MD 21661484-354-8800From: David 
Knecht via CnC-List 
Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2021 9:36:44 AM
To: CnC CnC discussion list 
Cc: David Knecht 
Subject: Stus-List Re: Fuel pump Hi Dennis- The Racor looks OK, but of course 
that says nothing.  I don’t know the Racor model but it is older since it does 
not have the threaded top that you can add a gauge to.  Since that is a more 
expensive alteration, I thought I would replace the fuel lines first and see if 
that fixes the problem.  If not, I thought I would bypass the Racor and see if 
it works that way and if so, replace the Racor itself.  Dave
S/V Aries1990 C 34+New London, CT


On Sep 23, 2021, at 9:31 AM, Dennis C. via CnC-List  
wrote:
What type of fuel filter do you have?  If it's a Racor MA500, the top may be 
warped or the gasket may be cracked or displaced.  Those are not infrequent 
issues with that filter.  Either condition could result in air inleakage.

-- 
Dennis C.Touche' 35-1 #83Mandeville, LAThanks to all of the subscribers that 
contributed to the list to help with the costs involved.  If you want to show 
your support to the list - use PayPal to send contribution --   
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu


Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --  https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu


Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Re: Fuel pump

[Dennis C. via CnC-List]

Ok.  If it doesn't have the T handle top then it's not a 500.

For those that do have the 500, overtightening the T handle can warp the
top resulting in the potential for air inleakage.

--
Dennis C.
Touche' 35-1 #83
Mandeville, LA

On Thu, Sep 23, 2021 at 8:37 AM David Knecht via CnC-List <
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

> Hi Dennis- The Racor looks OK, but of course that says nothing.  I don’t
> know the Racor model but it is older since it does not have the threaded
> top that you can add a gauge to.  Since that is a more expensive
> alteration, I thought I would replace the fuel lines first and see if that
> fixes the problem.  If not, I thought I would bypass the Racor and see if
> it works that way and if so, replace the Racor itself.  Dave
>
> S/V Aries
> 1990 C 34+
> New London, CT
>
>
> On Sep 23, 2021, at 9:31 AM, Dennis C. via CnC-List 
> wrote:
>
> What type of fuel filter do you have?  If it's a Racor MA500, the top may
> be warped or the gasket may be cracked or displaced.  Those are not
> infrequent issues with that filter.  Either condition could result in air
> inleakage.
>
>
>
Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Re: Fuel pump

[Josh Muckley via CnC-List]

I'm late to this discussion, sorry.  If you have an electric fuel pump it
should be connected before the racor.  Suck directly from the tank and as
close to the tank as possible, discharge into the racor.  This eliminates
the chance of a vacuum leak in the racor or anywhere else downstream of the
pump since down stream is pressurized.

Our era of boats were typically equipped with 200FG model racors.
Glass/plastic or metal bowl for diesel.  Metal bowl only for gasoline.  I
found venting to be a PIA.  I've shared this before but here is a video
that includes a mod for easier venting.  This mod requires drilling and
tapping the racor head.

https://youtu.be/H-GI38vE4hQ

Josh Muckley
S/V Sea Hawk
1989 C 37+
Solomons, MD

On Thu, Sep 23, 2021, 10:14 David Knecht via CnC-List 
wrote:

> Sorry if the start of the thread was lost somewhere.  Quick summary: The
> problem was the engine twice ran for some time and then died and would not
> start.  When I checked the Racor later, it was half full of fuel so
> diagnosis was either electric fuel pump not working, plugged pickup tube or
> vacuum leak somewhere so it could not pull fuel from tank.  I have been
> chasing those down and now confident the pump and pickup are working, and
> vacuum leak is either in fuel line or Racor holder.  That is why I decided
> to replace fuel lines when several listers suggested that as most likely
> culprit (from past experience with the same problem).  Dave
>
> S/V Aries
> 1990 C 34+
> New London, CT
>
>
> On Sep 23, 2021, at 10:02 AM, Chris Riedinger via CnC-List <
> cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
>
> Also wondering if 'dont understand' goes a little deeper here
>
>
> Do you mean the mechanical pump on your block or?
>
> Why are you chasing a fuel pump issue? Do you have a no-start? A boat
> dying after a certain amount of time? Etc etc
>
> On Wed, Sep 22, 2021, 10:19 AM Dave S via CnC-List 
> wrote:
>
>> If there’s only one terminal on the pump itself then the metal chassis
>> must be the ground.
>>
>> If you are referring to a schematic the ground wire may not be
>> illustrated.
>>
>> Dave
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> > On Sep 22, 2021, at 10:16 AM, David Knecht via CnC-List <
>> cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > I am trying to diagnose fuel issue. I dont understand pump wiring.
>> There appears to be only one wire to pump. Where is it grounded?
>> >
>> > Sent from my iPhone
>> > Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help
>> with the costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list -
>> use PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
>> Thanks - Stu
>> Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help
>> with the costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list -
>> use PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
>> Thanks - Stu
>
> Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with
> the costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use
> PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks
> - Stu
>
>
> Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with
> the costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use
> PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks
> - Stu
Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Re: Fuel pump

[Neil Andersen via CnC-List]

Very true

Neil Andersen
Rock Hall, MD 21661
484-354-8800

From: Della Barba, Joe via CnC-List 
Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2021 10:26:40 AM
To: Stus-List 
Cc: Della Barba, Joe 
Subject: Stus-List Re: Fuel pump


For an gasoline engine that might be true, but for most diesels the result of 
feeding dirt past the Racor would be clogging up the filter on the engine. Now 
if there is water in the fuel – that would get through the engine filter ☹



Joe

Coquina



From: Neil Andersen via CnC-List 
Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2021 9:54 AM
To: Stus-List 
Cc: Neil Andersen 
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Stus-List Re: Fuel pump



I would think that risky.  If the Racor is the issue because it is doing its 
job and there is particulate matter coming from the tank, bypassing it will 
allow the matter to get to the engine.



Neil Andersen

1982 C 32, FoxFire

Rock Hall, MD 21661

484-354-8800


Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Re: Fuel pump

[Della Barba, Joe via CnC-List]

For an gasoline engine that might be true, but for most diesels the result of 
feeding dirt past the Racor would be clogging up the filter on the engine. Now 
if there is water in the fuel – that would get through the engine filter ☹

Joe
Coquina

From: Neil Andersen via CnC-List 
Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2021 9:54 AM
To: Stus-List 
Cc: Neil Andersen 
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Stus-List Re: Fuel pump

I would think that risky.  If the Racor is the issue because it is doing its 
job and there is particulate matter coming from the tank, bypassing it will 
allow the matter to get to the engine.

Neil Andersen
1982 C 32, FoxFire
Rock Hall, MD 21661
484-354-8800

Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Re: Fuel pump

[David Knecht via CnC-List]

Sorry if the start of the thread was lost somewhere.  Quick summary: The 
problem was the engine twice ran for some time and then died and would not 
start.  When I checked the Racor later, it was half full of fuel so diagnosis 
was either electric fuel pump not working, plugged pickup tube or vacuum leak 
somewhere so it could not pull fuel from tank.  I have been chasing those down 
and now confident the pump and pickup are working, and vacuum leak is either in 
fuel line or Racor holder.  That is why I decided to replace fuel lines when 
several listers suggested that as most likely culprit (from past experience 
with the same problem).  Dave

S/V Aries
1990 C 34+
New London, CT



> On Sep 23, 2021, at 10:02 AM, Chris Riedinger via CnC-List 
>  wrote:
> 
> Also wondering if 'dont understand' goes a little deeper here
> 
> 
> Do you mean the mechanical pump on your block or? 
> 
> Why are you chasing a fuel pump issue? Do you have a no-start? A boat dying 
> after a certain amount of time? Etc etc 
> 
> On Wed, Sep 22, 2021, 10:19 AM Dave S via CnC-List  > wrote:
> If there’s only one terminal on the pump itself then the metal chassis must 
> be the ground. 
> 
> If you are referring to a schematic the ground wire may not be illustrated. 
> 
> Dave 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> > On Sep 22, 2021, at 10:16 AM, David Knecht via CnC-List 
> > mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:
> > 
> > I am trying to diagnose fuel issue. I dont understand pump wiring. There 
> > appears to be only one wire to pump. Where is it grounded?
> > 
> > Sent from my iPhone
> > Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with 
> > the costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use 
> > PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray 
> >   Thanks - Stu
> Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with 
> the costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use 
> PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray 
>   Thanks - Stu
> Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with 
> the costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use 
> PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Re: Fuel pump

[David Knecht via CnC-List]

I meant bypass the Racor, turn on the pump and collect fuel into a secondary 
container to test.  I agree that I would not run the engine that way.  I am 
presuming that the flow of fuel through the filter should be a good test of the 
system since the problem was I was getting air into the primary Racor holder, 
so a vacuum leak likely somewhere.  Dave

S/V Aries
1990 C 34+
New London, CT



> On Sep 23, 2021, at 9:53 AM, Neil Andersen  
> wrote:
> 
> I would think that risky.  If the Racor is the issue because it is doing its 
> job and there is particulate matter coming from the tank, bypassing it will 
> allow the matter to get to the engine. 
> 
> Neil Andersen
> 1982 C 32, FoxFire
> Rock Hall, MD 21661
> 484-354-8800
> From: David Knecht via CnC-List 
> Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2021 9:36:44 AM
> To: CnC CnC discussion list 
> Cc: David Knecht 
> Subject: Stus-List Re: Fuel pump
>  
> Hi Dennis- The Racor looks OK, but of course that says nothing.  I don’t know 
> the Racor model but it is older since it does not have the threaded top that 
> you can add a gauge to.  Since that is a more expensive alteration, I thought 
> I would replace the fuel lines first and see if that fixes the problem.  If 
> not, I thought I would bypass the Racor and see if it works that way and if 
> so, replace the Racor itself.  Dave
> 
> S/V Aries
> 1990 C 34+
> New London, CT
> 
> 
> 
>> On Sep 23, 2021, at 9:31 AM, Dennis C. via CnC-List > <mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:
>> 
>> What type of fuel filter do you have?  If it's a Racor MA500, the top may be 
>> warped or the gasket may be cracked or displaced.  Those are not infrequent 
>> issues with that filter.  Either condition could result in air inleakage.
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> Dennis C.
>> Touche' 35-1 #83
>> Mandeville, LA
>> Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with 
>> the costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use 
>> PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray 
>> <https://www.paypal.me/stumurray>  Thanks - Stu
> 

Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Re: Fuel pump

[Chris Riedinger via CnC-List]

Also wondering if 'dont understand' goes a little deeper here


Do you mean the mechanical pump on your block or?

Why are you chasing a fuel pump issue? Do you have a no-start? A boat dying
after a certain amount of time? Etc etc

On Wed, Sep 22, 2021, 10:19 AM Dave S via CnC-List 
wrote:

> If there’s only one terminal on the pump itself then the metal chassis
> must be the ground.
>
> If you are referring to a schematic the ground wire may not be
> illustrated.
>
> Dave
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Sep 22, 2021, at 10:16 AM, David Knecht via CnC-List <
> cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
> >
> > I am trying to diagnose fuel issue. I dont understand pump wiring.
> There appears to be only one wire to pump. Where is it grounded?
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> > Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help
> with the costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list -
> use PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
> Thanks - Stu
> Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with
> the costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use
> PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks
> - Stu
Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Re: Fuel pump

[Neil Andersen via CnC-List]

I would think that risky.  If the Racor is the issue because it is doing its 
job and there is particulate matter coming from the tank, bypassing it will 
allow the matter to get to the engine.

Neil Andersen
1982 C 32, FoxFire
Rock Hall, MD 21661
484-354-8800

From: David Knecht via CnC-List 
Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2021 9:36:44 AM
To: CnC CnC discussion list 
Cc: David Knecht 
Subject: Stus-List Re: Fuel pump

Hi Dennis- The Racor looks OK, but of course that says nothing.  I don’t know 
the Racor model but it is older since it does not have the threaded top that 
you can add a gauge to.  Since that is a more expensive alteration, I thought I 
would replace the fuel lines first and see if that fixes the problem.  If not, 
I thought I would bypass the Racor and see if it works that way and if so, 
replace the Racor itself.  Dave

S/V Aries
1990 C 34+
New London, CT

[cid:4073BE72-4704-4EA7-8EBA-B73B833F502B]

On Sep 23, 2021, at 9:31 AM, Dennis C. via CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:

What type of fuel filter do you have?  If it's a Racor MA500, the top may be 
warped or the gasket may be cracked or displaced.  Those are not infrequent 
issues with that filter.  Either condition could result in air inleakage.


--
Dennis C.
Touche' 35-1 #83
Mandeville, LA
Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Re: Fuel pump

[David Knecht via CnC-List]

Hi Dennis- The Racor looks OK, but of course that says nothing.  I don’t know 
the Racor model but it is older since it does not have the threaded top that 
you can add a gauge to.  Since that is a more expensive alteration, I thought I 
would replace the fuel lines first and see if that fixes the problem.  If not, 
I thought I would bypass the Racor and see if it works that way and if so, 
replace the Racor itself.  Dave

S/V Aries
1990 C 34+
New London, CT



> On Sep 23, 2021, at 9:31 AM, Dennis C. via CnC-List  
> wrote:
> 
> What type of fuel filter do you have?  If it's a Racor MA500, the top may be 
> warped or the gasket may be cracked or displaced.  Those are not infrequent 
> issues with that filter.  Either condition could result in air inleakage.
> 
> 
> -- 
> Dennis C.
> Touche' 35-1 #83
> Mandeville, LA
> Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with 
> the costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use 
> PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Re: Fuel pump

[Dennis C. via CnC-List]

What type of fuel filter do you have?  If it's a Racor MA500, the top may
be warped or the gasket may be cracked or displaced.  Those are not
infrequent issues with that filter.  Either condition could result in air
inleakage.


-- 
Dennis C.
Touche' 35-1 #83
Mandeville, LA
Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Re: Fuel pump

[David Knecht via CnC-List]

Thanks for all the input.  
I spent all day yesterday on the problem with two trips to Defender for parts.  
I realized that I had detached the ground wire when I unbolted the fuel pump 
and when I reattached the ground, it started clicking away.  I then hooked up a 
new fuel line from the tank pickup to the fuel pump bypassing the filter etc 
and ran the outflow into a container.  It ran fine and rapidly pumped fuel.  At 
first, the sound was off, but once it had fuel, the sound was normal.  So I 
think the pump is fine and the odd sound I heard when the problem started was 
the fact that it was pulling air instead of diesel since the bowl was not 
filling.  That result makes the lines between the fuel tank and the pump 
suspect, which is what everyone was saying was the likeliest possibility.  
I replaced the fuel filters first (trip to hardware store for filter wrench as 
I could not get it off by hand).  I got some more fuel line (first trip to 
Defender) and tried to install it and found that the nipple on the fuel tank 
was 3/8” and someone had somehow gotten ¼” ID tubing onto it.  All the other 
fittings are ¼” as was the tubing.  I could not duplicate that feat, so went 
back to Defender and replaced the nipple with a ¼” version.  It was really hard 
to get the new tubing onto the nipples and I spent the rest of the rainy 
afternoon trying to replace various segments of the tubing.  I thought it best 
to replace all while I as doing the job.  That turns out to be a lot of nipples 
in a lot of difficult to access places.  
So my real problem now is how to get the tubing onto those nipples as they are 
are generally not a gradually increasing gradient of sized rings, but two 
bulges of equal diameter separated by a straight portion.  
1.  The nipple I put on the fuel tank is a gradually increasing sized as 
opposed to the other type.  Is that a bad idea? I am not sure of the logic of 
using one type vs. the other.  I can see that the gradual type might allow the 
tube to gradually work its way off, but I don’t know if that is possible with a 
hose clamp in place.
2.  How to get the tubing onto these nipples.  I struggled with this and mostly 
failed.  After I gave up, I ran into a friend at my club who suggested putting 
soap on the nipple and sticking the end in hot water for a few minutes before 
trying to install.  I think I can get to most places with a mug on hot water so 
this seems like a good idea, if it works.   I could bring the boat to the dock 
and use a heat gun (no 110V on boat), but it seems hot water will more 
uniformly heat the tubing, especially inside which is hard to get to with a 
heat gun.  Any other hints?  
Thanks- Dave

David Knecht
Rear Commodore
Thames Yacht Club
New London, CT



> On Sep 23, 2021, at 5:22 AM, CHARLES SCHEAFFER  wrote:
> 
> On my boat the ground wire has a ring terminal attached to the pump foot.  
> The original pump was screwed to the inside of the engine box with wood 
> screws and the ground came loose during the delivery home.  I later through 
> bolted it for better reliability and no problems since.  Knock on wood.
> 
> Chuck Scheaffer, Resolute, 1989 34R
> 
> 
> 
>> On 09/22/2021 10:16 AM David Knecht via CnC-List  
>> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> I am trying to diagnose fuel issue. I dont understand pump wiring. There 
>> appears to be only one wire to pump. Where is it grounded?
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with 
>> the costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use 
>> PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - 
>> Stu
Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Re: Fuel pump

[CHARLES SCHEAFFER via CnC-List]

On my boat the ground wire has a ring terminal attached to the pump foot.  The 
original pump was screwed to the inside of the engine box with wood screws and 
the ground came loose during the delivery home.  I later through bolted it for 
better reliability and no problems since.  Knock on wood.

Chuck Scheaffer, Resolute, 1989 34R



> On 09/22/2021 10:16 AM David Knecht via CnC-List  
> wrote:
> 
>  
> I am trying to diagnose fuel issue. I dont understand pump wiring. There 
> appears to be only one wire to pump. Where is it grounded?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with 
> the costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use 
> PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu
Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Re: Fuel pump

[dwight veinot via CnC-List]

Mind was from 1 of the bolts that hold the pump fast to the bulkhead and a
wire from there to a bus bar ground
On Wed, Sep 22, 2021 at 11:16 AM David Knecht via CnC-List <
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

> I am trying to diagnose fuel issue. I dont understand pump wiring. There
> appears to be only one wire to pump. Where is it grounded?
>
> Sent from my iPhone
> Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with
> the costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use
> PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks
> - Stu
>
-- 
Sent from Gmail Mobile
Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Re: Fuel pump

[Doug via CnC-List]

Unlike a car, our boats being fiberglass, require a ground wire. If there is 
not a black wire (ground) attached some where on the pumps metal frame, add one 
and run it to a ground buss. Unfortunately a lot of manufacturers use a black 
lead wire from the pump for the 12v connection.  I installed an electric fan on 
my truck, and couldn't figure why it still overheated. Come to find out the 
blue wire was ground and the black was positive. I was running the fan 
backwards. Doug Mountjoy sv Rebecca Leah C & C Landfall 39Port Orchard Yacht 
Club Port Orchard, WA
 Original message From: David Knecht via CnC-List 
 Date: 9/22/21  07:16  (GMT-08:00) To: CnC CnC 
discussion list  Cc: davidakne...@gmail.com Subject: 
Stus-List Fuel pump I am trying to diagnose fuel issue. I dont understand pump 
wiring. There appears to be only one wire to pump. Where is it grounded?Sent 
from my iPhoneThanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to 
help with the costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - 
use PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - 
StuThanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Re: Fuel pump

[Korbey Hunt via CnC-List]

Pump is grouned to motor by attachment bolts.

Get Outlook for Android

From: David Knecht via CnC-List 
Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2021 6:16:05 AM
To: CnC CnC discussion list 
Cc: davidakne...@gmail.com 
Subject: Stus-List Fuel pump

I am trying to diagnose fuel issue. I dont understand pump wiring. There 
appears to be only one wire to pump. Where is it grounded?

Sent from my iPhone
Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   
https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.paypal.me%2Fstumurraydata=04%7C01%7C%7C2c05e270b4c049e856d408d97dd38e76%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C637679169850776054%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000sdata=l0n1DUAMy42524YlIY3exouz%2FxujRCUsNg%2Ba%2F2qxgVg%3Dreserved=0
  Thanks - Stu
Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Re: Fuel pump

[Dave S via CnC-List]

If there’s only one terminal on the pump itself then the metal chassis must be 
the ground. 

If you are referring to a schematic the ground wire may not be illustrated. 

Dave 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Sep 22, 2021, at 10:16 AM, David Knecht via CnC-List 
>  wrote:
> 
> I am trying to diagnose fuel issue. I dont understand pump wiring. There 
> appears to be only one wire to pump. Where is it grounded?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with 
> the costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use 
> PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu
Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Re: Fuel pump problem?

[Bill Coleman via CnC-List]

There is an amazing hose that I came across at one of my favorite
industrial surplus places many years ago. It was made by Parker , it said
Coast Guard approved on the outside of it, molded into it. It was blue, and
the toughest stuff I have ever come across. I could not cut it even with
the biggest rod cutters that I have!   I thought it was going to destroy my
bandsaw blade! I think it had some type of spring tempered stainless braid
in it.



Bill Coleman

On Tue, Sep 21, 2021, 8:07 AM Dave S via CnC-List 
wrote:

> Good idea on the gauge - I had a project car that required one.
>
> This is a good reminder to replace the rubber fuel lines with good quality
> diesel rated hose and also to verify the hose clamps.  Very easy and cheap
> preventative maintenance.
>
> Dave
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Sep 21, 2021, at 7:28 AM, Della Barba, Joe via CnC-List <
> cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
>
> 
>
> I had to track down a fuel problem that was driving me nuts. I had random
> shutdowns that would randomly fix themselves. I ended up with a fuel
> pressure gauge and 2 vacuum gauges, one on each side of the filter. I
> noticed the vacuum would increase on BOTH gauges when there was a shutdown,
> indicating that the restriction was prior to the filter.
>
> What it turned out to be was the fuel fill line was coming apart
> internally and dropping a lot of rubber bits into the tank. They would get
> sucked onto the fuel pickup tube and then fall off later.
>
> Ever since I have had a fuel pressure gauge visible from the helm. I got
> one off FleaBay that has a red warning light in it that comes on below 1
> PSI. Note that a vacuum gauge only tells you if there is a clog, low fuel
> pressure for other reasons lie air in the system or a failed pump leave it
> sit on 0.
>
> If memory serves I sent one of my extra vacuum gauges to a member on the
> list. I still have one permanently installed.
>
>
>
> Joe
>
> Coquina
>
>
>
> *From:* Korbey Hunt via CnC-List 
> *Sent:* Monday, September 20, 2021 5:17 PM
> *To:* Stus-List 
> *Cc:* Korbey Hunt 
> *Subject:* [EXTERNAL] Stus-List Re: Fuel pump problem?
>
>
>
> A crew member advised he had an intermitent mystery fuel problem that
> turned out to be a blockage in the fuel supply line at the tank.
>
>
> Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with
> the costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use
> PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks
> - Stu
>
> Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with
> the costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use
> PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks
> - Stu
Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Re: Fuel pump problem?

[David Knecht via CnC-List]

I have a vacuum gauge on the line between the fuel tank and the Racor with a 
drag pointer to mark the max vacuum and that has not shown any increase when 
this happens, so I am presuming the line is not plugged.  A pressure gauge on 
the other side of the pump makes sense and I might add that when this is 
sorted.  Dave

S/V Aries
1990 C 34+
New London, CT



> On Sep 21, 2021, at 10:07 AM, Dave S via CnC-List  
> wrote:
> 
> Good idea on the gauge - I had a project car that required one.  
> 
> This is a good reminder to replace the rubber fuel lines with good quality 
> diesel rated hose and also to verify the hose clamps.  Very easy and cheap 
> preventative maintenance.
> 
> Dave 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Sep 21, 2021, at 7:28 AM, Della Barba, Joe via CnC-List 
>> mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> I had to track down a fuel problem that was driving me nuts. I had random 
>> shutdowns that would randomly fix themselves. I ended up with a fuel 
>> pressure gauge and 2 vacuum gauges, one on each side of the filter. I 
>> noticed the vacuum would increase on BOTH gauges when there was a shutdown, 
>> indicating that the restriction was prior to the filter.
>> What it turned out to be was the fuel fill line was coming apart internally 
>> and dropping a lot of rubber bits into the tank. They would get sucked onto 
>> the fuel pickup tube and then fall off later.
>> Ever since I have had a fuel pressure gauge visible from the helm. I got one 
>> off FleaBay that has a red warning light in it that comes on below 1 PSI. 
>> Note that a vacuum gauge only tells you if there is a clog, low fuel 
>> pressure for other reasons lie air in the system or a failed pump leave it 
>> sit on 0.
>> If memory serves I sent one of my extra vacuum gauges to a member on the 
>> list. I still have one permanently installed.
>>  
>> Joe
>> Coquina
>>  
>> From: Korbey Hunt via CnC-List > <mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> 
>> Sent: Monday, September 20, 2021 5:17 PM
>> To: Stus-List mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>>
>> Cc: Korbey Hunt mailto:kampf2...@hotmail.com>>
>> Subject: [EXTERNAL] Stus-List Re: Fuel pump problem?
>>  
>> A crew member advised he had an intermitent mystery fuel problem that turned 
>> out to be a blockage in the fuel supply line at the tank.
>>  
>> Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with 
>> the costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use 
>> PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray 
>> <https://www.paypal.me/stumurray>  Thanks - Stu
> Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with 
> the costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use 
> PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray 
> <https://www.paypal.me/stumurray>  Thanks - Stu

Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Re: Fuel pump problem?

[Dave S via CnC-List]

Good idea on the gauge - I had a project car that required one.  

This is a good reminder to replace the rubber fuel lines with good quality 
diesel rated hose and also to verify the hose clamps.  Very easy and cheap 
preventative maintenance.

Dave 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Sep 21, 2021, at 7:28 AM, Della Barba, Joe via CnC-List 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> I had to track down a fuel problem that was driving me nuts. I had random 
> shutdowns that would randomly fix themselves. I ended up with a fuel pressure 
> gauge and 2 vacuum gauges, one on each side of the filter. I noticed the 
> vacuum would increase on BOTH gauges when there was a shutdown, indicating 
> that the restriction was prior to the filter.
> What it turned out to be was the fuel fill line was coming apart internally 
> and dropping a lot of rubber bits into the tank. They would get sucked onto 
> the fuel pickup tube and then fall off later.
> Ever since I have had a fuel pressure gauge visible from the helm. I got one 
> off FleaBay that has a red warning light in it that comes on below 1 PSI. 
> Note that a vacuum gauge only tells you if there is a clog, low fuel pressure 
> for other reasons lie air in the system or a failed pump leave it sit on 0.
> If memory serves I sent one of my extra vacuum gauges to a member on the 
> list. I still have one permanently installed.
>  
> Joe
> Coquina
>  
> From: Korbey Hunt via CnC-List  
> Sent: Monday, September 20, 2021 5:17 PM
> To: Stus-List 
> Cc: Korbey Hunt 
> Subject: [EXTERNAL] Stus-List Re: Fuel pump problem?
>  
> A crew member advised he had an intermitent mystery fuel problem that turned 
> out to be a blockage in the fuel supply line at the tank.
>  
> Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with 
> the costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use 
> PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu
Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Re: Fuel pump problem?

[Della Barba, Joe via CnC-List]

I had to track down a fuel problem that was driving me nuts. I had random 
shutdowns that would randomly fix themselves. I ended up with a fuel pressure 
gauge and 2 vacuum gauges, one on each side of the filter. I noticed the vacuum 
would increase on BOTH gauges when there was a shutdown, indicating that the 
restriction was prior to the filter.
What it turned out to be was the fuel fill line was coming apart internally and 
dropping a lot of rubber bits into the tank. They would get sucked onto the 
fuel pickup tube and then fall off later.
Ever since I have had a fuel pressure gauge visible from the helm. I got one 
off FleaBay that has a red warning light in it that comes on below 1 PSI. Note 
that a vacuum gauge only tells you if there is a clog, low fuel pressure for 
other reasons lie air in the system or a failed pump leave it sit on 0.
If memory serves I sent one of my extra vacuum gauges to a member on the list. 
I still have one permanently installed.

Joe
Coquina

From: Korbey Hunt via CnC-List 
Sent: Monday, September 20, 2021 5:17 PM
To: Stus-List 
Cc: Korbey Hunt 
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Stus-List Re: Fuel pump problem?

A crew member advised he had an intermitent mystery fuel problem that turned 
out to be a blockage in the fuel supply line at the tank.

Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Re: Fuel pump problem?

[Dave S via CnC-List]

I think I’m the other Dave…..  lol.  Having just done this I suggest you simply disconnect the fuel line at the low pressure pump input side.  Blow into the hose.  This will clear the screen if any for now, in any case it’s not likely the problem.Reconnect that, then disconnect the fuel line at the high pressure pump.  Run the fuel using the electric fuel pump, collect it into a bottle.  Chances are it’ll flow just fine, and keep flowing.  This takes you up to the engine.I am assuming this works the same as the m20.Open the speed control cover and check that both springs visible there are present and attached and that the governor spring pulls its lever back fully against its stop.    Check that both levers travel freely. (This connects to the fuel pump which is what actually meters the fuel.)That’s the easy stuff.  After that, its high pressure pump, injectors etc.Dave Sent from my iPhoneOn Sep 20, 2021, at 5:17 PM, Korbey Hunt via CnC-List  wrote:




A crew member advised he had an intermitent mystery fuel problem that turned out to be a blockage in the fuel supply line at the tank.


Get Outlook for Android

From: dwight veinot via CnC-List 
Sent: Monday, September 20, 2021 12:56:10 PM
To: Stus-List 
Cc: dwight veinot 
Subject: Stus-List Re: Fuel pump problem?
 


I have the same engine with a 12v Facet electric fuel pump. Check the 12v supply to the pump first. When I turn the ignition key on if the fuel pump is working there is a very obvious clicking sound. Open the bleed screw and you should see a
 good flow of fuel. I purchased a solid state Facet 12v fuel pump from Aircraft Spruce as some good person here recommended. Facet model 40106 plus the inline filter for about $75 Cdn. Turned out my old pump was fine but the 12v supply was gone. Fixed that,
 changed the 2,filters, bled the system and she started right up but almost immediately the wet exhaust blew apart spewing salt water everywhere. It’s been a month since and I am still trying to source parts to build a new wet exhaust elbow. In the mean time
 got a tow to the marina and hauled the boat. Season ended mid August just when the best sailing weather arrived here. Hope to get it fixed soon so I can winterize. 


On Mon, Sep 20, 2021 at 5:33 PM David Knecht via CnC-List <cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:


Seems to be the week for Dave’s and diesel fuel problems.  Here is my story to hopefully get the wisdom of the group.  


Last Wednesday I was out for a lovely sail (7.5-8 knot reach across Fisher’s Island sound for lunch and back).  I had motored into the harbor on the other side of the sound for about 15 minutes and then back out again and no problems.  I got back to the
 mooring area and the engine started and then quit.  Tried a few times and it would only come close to starting if I gave it lots of throttle, but would still quit.  Sailed to the mooring (which I hit on the first try under sail single handed in 15+ knots of
 wind- I impressed myself) put away sails etc. and then tried the engine again and it started and ran fine.  I chalked it up to bad karma and went home.  Saturday, we sailed to Mystic and motored for an hour into the harbor to the Seaport with no problems. 
 Today we motored back out and after a long wait for the bridge to open (so about 30 min total motoring) the engine quit again and would not start.  A few times before it quit for good, it would suddenly decrease revs for a second and then back up.  Fortunately,
 the wind direction allowed us to sail out of the harbor and back to the mooring where it would not start.  


Then I started taking things apart to diagnose. (Universal M4-30, electric fuel pump)
1.  Thought first my fuel gauge (reading half full tank) was mistaken or I had bad fuel.  Pulled the probe into the fuel tank and with a flashlight was able to see that the tank was half full and the fuel looked perfectly clean.
2.  Took the Racor lid off and found that the bowl was not full.  It was about 1-2” down so at about the level of the top of the primary filter.  Obviously not good.  This triggered the thought that the sound the electric fuel pump had been making was
 not what I remembered.  Instead of a rapid continuous clicking, it was more irregular and perhaps not as loud.  
So I am thinking either bad fuel pump or bad power connection from the key switch to the fuel pump.  Does a dying fuel pump work one day and not the next?  The other possibility seems to be a small hole/crack in the fuel line so the pump can’t draw enough
 vacuum to pull fuel from the tank.  Not sure how to diagnose that and seems even less likely to allow the engine to work intermittently.  


Solutions/more diagnosis
1.  Should I just buy a replacement fuel pump and see if it solves the problem?  This is not inexpensive, but not a huge amount of money and a fairly easy test.  Universal pump was about $230 from Toad’s Marine, but I seem to remember people on the list
 talking about automotive sources that might be cheaper?
2.

Stus-List Re: Fuel pump problem?

[Korbey Hunt via CnC-List]

A crew member advised he had an intermitent mystery fuel problem that turned 
out to be a blockage in the fuel supply line at the tank.

Get Outlook for Android<https://aka.ms/AAb9ysg>

From: dwight veinot via CnC-List 
Sent: Monday, September 20, 2021 12:56:10 PM
To: Stus-List 
Cc: dwight veinot 
Subject: Stus-List Re: Fuel pump problem?

I have the same engine with a 12v Facet electric fuel pump. Check the 12v 
supply to the pump first. When I turn the ignition key on if the fuel pump is 
working there is a very obvious clicking sound. Open the bleed screw and you 
should see a good flow of fuel. I purchased a solid state Facet 12v fuel pump 
from Aircraft Spruce as some good person here recommended. Facet model 40106 
plus the inline filter for about $75 Cdn. Turned out my old pump was fine but 
the 12v supply was gone. Fixed that, changed the 2,filters, bled the system and 
she started right up but almost immediately the wet exhaust blew apart spewing 
salt water everywhere. It’s been a month since and I am still trying to source 
parts to build a new wet exhaust elbow. In the mean time got a tow to the 
marina and hauled the boat. Season ended mid August just when the best sailing 
weather arrived here. Hope to get it fixed soon so I can winterize.

On Mon, Sep 20, 2021 at 5:33 PM David Knecht via CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:
Seems to be the week for Dave’s and diesel fuel problems.  Here is my story to 
hopefully get the wisdom of the group.

Last Wednesday I was out for a lovely sail (7.5-8 knot reach across Fisher’s 
Island sound for lunch and back).  I had motored into the harbor on the other 
side of the sound for about 15 minutes and then back out again and no problems. 
 I got back to the mooring area and the engine started and then quit.  Tried a 
few times and it would only come close to starting if I gave it lots of 
throttle, but would still quit.  Sailed to the mooring (which I hit on the 
first try under sail single handed in 15+ knots of wind- I impressed myself) 
put away sails etc. and then tried the engine again and it started and ran 
fine.  I chalked it up to bad karma and went home.  Saturday, we sailed to 
Mystic and motored for an hour into the harbor to the Seaport with no problems. 
 Today we motored back out and after a long wait for the bridge to open (so 
about 30 min total motoring) the engine quit again and would not start.  A few 
times before it quit for good, it would suddenly decrease revs for a second and 
then back up.  Fortunately, the wind direction allowed us to sail out of the 
harbor and back to the mooring where it would not start.

Then I started taking things apart to diagnose. (Universal M4-30, electric fuel 
pump)
1.  Thought first my fuel gauge (reading half full tank) was mistaken or I had 
bad fuel.  Pulled the probe into the fuel tank and with a flashlight was able 
to see that the tank was half full and the fuel looked perfectly clean.
2.  Took the Racor lid off and found that the bowl was not full.  It was about 
1-2” down so at about the level of the top of the primary filter.  Obviously 
not good.  This triggered the thought that the sound the electric fuel pump had 
been making was not what I remembered.  Instead of a rapid continuous clicking, 
it was more irregular and perhaps not as loud.
So I am thinking either bad fuel pump or bad power connection from the key 
switch to the fuel pump.  Does a dying fuel pump work one day and not the next? 
 The other possibility seems to be a small hole/crack in the fuel line so the 
pump can’t draw enough vacuum to pull fuel from the tank.  Not sure how to 
diagnose that and seems even less likely to allow the engine to work 
intermittently.

Solutions/more diagnosis
1.  Should I just buy a replacement fuel pump and see if it solves the problem? 
 This is not inexpensive, but not a huge amount of money and a fairly easy 
test.  Universal pump was about $230 from Toad’s Marine, but I seem to remember 
people on the list talking about automotive sources that might be cheaper?
2.  Does one rebuild a fuel pump or buy a new one?
3.  Is there a good way to distinguish power issues from mechanical issues 
other than a new pump? A friend suggested filling the Racor bowl with fuel, 
then turning on the pump and see if it draws the level down.  The only problem 
with this is I don’t know how fast it normally pulls fuel so not sure how to 
tell if it was pumping, but not fast enough.

Any thoughts welcome.  Home now, but plan to go down on Wednesday and work on 
fixing the problem.
Thanks- Dave

S/V Aries
1990 C 34+
New London, CT

[cid:17c04f2be391022a4281]

Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.paypal.me%2Fst

Stus-List Re: Fuel pump problem?

[Korbey Hunt via CnC-List]

I had a similar strange problem. Running almost new (200 hrs) 30 hp Yanmar 
diesel engine for a number of hours at 80% rpm with no problem when engine 
quit.  Slowed revs and then stop.  Drifted for a few minutes.  Restarted engine 
and no trouble after.  Returned to dock at lower RPM.  Replaced primary and 
secondary fuel filters.  No obvious blockage.  No water.  Filled fuel bowls 
with new fuel.  Engine started without needing to reprime.  Ran at idle for 30 
min.  All good.

I doubt the filters had been replaced since new engine was installed.

Get Outlook for Android

From: David Knecht via CnC-List 
Sent: Monday, September 20, 2021 12:33:33 PM
To: CnC CnC discussion list 
Cc: David Knecht 
Subject: Stus-List Fuel pump problem?

Seems to be the week for Dave’s and diesel fuel problems.  Here is my story to 
hopefully get the wisdom of the group.

Last Wednesday I was out for a lovely sail (7.5-8 knot reach across Fisher’s 
Island sound for lunch and back).  I had motored into the harbor on the other 
side of the sound for about 15 minutes and then back out again and no problems. 
 I got back to the mooring area and the engine started and then quit.  Tried a 
few times and it would only come close to starting if I gave it lots of 
throttle, but would still quit.  Sailed to the mooring (which I hit on the 
first try under sail single handed in 15+ knots of wind- I impressed myself) 
put away sails etc. and then tried the engine again and it started and ran 
fine.  I chalked it up to bad karma and went home.  Saturday, we sailed to 
Mystic and motored for an hour into the harbor to the Seaport with no problems. 
 Today we motored back out and after a long wait for the bridge to open (so 
about 30 min total motoring) the engine quit again and would not start.  A few 
times before it quit for good, it would suddenly decrease revs for a second and 
then back up.  Fortunately, the wind direction allowed us to sail out of the 
harbor and back to the mooring where it would not start.

Then I started taking things apart to diagnose. (Universal M4-30, electric fuel 
pump)
1.  Thought first my fuel gauge (reading half full tank) was mistaken or I had 
bad fuel.  Pulled the probe into the fuel tank and with a flashlight was able 
to see that the tank was half full and the fuel looked perfectly clean.
2.  Took the Racor lid off and found that the bowl was not full.  It was about 
1-2” down so at about the level of the top of the primary filter.  Obviously 
not good.  This triggered the thought that the sound the electric fuel pump had 
been making was not what I remembered.  Instead of a rapid continuous clicking, 
it was more irregular and perhaps not as loud.
So I am thinking either bad fuel pump or bad power connection from the key 
switch to the fuel pump.  Does a dying fuel pump work one day and not the next? 
 The other possibility seems to be a small hole/crack in the fuel line so the 
pump can’t draw enough vacuum to pull fuel from the tank.  Not sure how to 
diagnose that and seems even less likely to allow the engine to work 
intermittently.

Solutions/more diagnosis
1.  Should I just buy a replacement fuel pump and see if it solves the problem? 
 This is not inexpensive, but not a huge amount of money and a fairly easy 
test.  Universal pump was about $230 from Toad’s Marine, but I seem to remember 
people on the list talking about automotive sources that might be cheaper?
2.  Does one rebuild a fuel pump or buy a new one?
3.  Is there a good way to distinguish power issues from mechanical issues 
other than a new pump? A friend suggested filling the Racor bowl with fuel, 
then turning on the pump and see if it draws the level down.  The only problem 
with this is I don’t know how fast it normally pulls fuel so not sure how to 
tell if it was pumping, but not fast enough.

Any thoughts welcome.  Home now, but plan to go down on Wednesday and work on 
fixing the problem.
Thanks- Dave

S/V Aries
1990 C 34+
New London, CT

[cid:4073BE72-4704-4EA7-8EBA-B73B833F502B]

Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Re: Fuel pump problem?

[dwight veinot via CnC-List]

I have the same engine with a 12v Facet electric fuel pump. Check the 12v
supply to the pump first. When I turn the ignition key on if the fuel pump
is working there is a very obvious clicking sound. Open the bleed screw and
you should see a good flow of fuel. I purchased a solid state Facet 12v
fuel pump from Aircraft Spruce as some good person here recommended. Facet
model 40106 plus the inline filter for about $75 Cdn. Turned out my old
pump was fine but the 12v supply was gone. Fixed that, changed the
2,filters, bled the system and she started right up but almost immediately
the wet exhaust blew apart spewing salt water everywhere. It’s been a month
since and I am still trying to source parts to build a new wet exhaust
elbow. In the mean time got a tow to the marina and hauled the boat. Season
ended mid August just when the best sailing weather arrived here. Hope to
get it fixed soon so I can winterize.

On Mon, Sep 20, 2021 at 5:33 PM David Knecht via CnC-List <
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

> Seems to be the week for Dave’s and diesel fuel problems.  Here is my
> story to hopefully get the wisdom of the group.
>
> Last Wednesday I was out for a lovely sail (7.5-8 knot reach across
> Fisher’s Island sound for lunch and back).  I had motored into the harbor
> on the other side of the sound for about 15 minutes and then back out again
> and no problems.  I got back to the mooring area and the engine started and
> then quit.  Tried a few times and it would only come close to starting if I
> gave it lots of throttle, but would still quit.  Sailed to the mooring
> (which I hit on the first try under sail single handed in 15+ knots of
> wind- I impressed myself) put away sails etc. and then tried the engine
> again and it started and ran fine.  I chalked it up to bad karma and went
> home.  Saturday, we sailed to Mystic and motored for an hour into the
> harbor to the Seaport with no problems.  Today we motored back out and
> after a long wait for the bridge to open (so about 30 min total motoring)
> the engine quit again and would not start.  A few times before it quit for
> good, it would suddenly decrease revs for a second and then back up.
> Fortunately, the wind direction allowed us to sail out of the harbor and
> back to the mooring where it would not start.
>
> Then I started taking things apart to diagnose. (Universal M4-30, electric
> fuel pump)
> 1.  Thought first my fuel gauge (reading half full tank) was mistaken or I
> had bad fuel.  Pulled the probe into the fuel tank and with a flashlight
> was able to see that the tank was half full and the fuel looked perfectly
> clean.
> 2.  Took the Racor lid off and found that the bowl was not full.  It was
> about 1-2” down so at about the level of the top of the primary filter.
> Obviously not good.  This triggered the thought that the sound the electric
> fuel pump had been making was not what I remembered.  Instead of a rapid
> continuous clicking, it was more irregular and perhaps not as loud.
> So I am thinking either bad fuel pump or bad power connection from the key
> switch to the fuel pump.  Does a dying fuel pump work one day and not the
> next?  The other possibility seems to be a small hole/crack in the fuel
> line so the pump can’t draw enough vacuum to pull fuel from the tank.  Not
> sure how to diagnose that and seems even less likely to allow the engine to
> work intermittently.
>
> Solutions/more diagnosis
> 1.  Should I just buy a replacement fuel pump and see if it solves the
> problem?  This is not inexpensive, but not a huge amount of money and a
> fairly easy test.  Universal pump was about $230 from Toad’s Marine, but I
> seem to remember people on the list talking about automotive sources that
> might be cheaper?
> 2.  Does one rebuild a fuel pump or buy a new one?
> 3.  Is there a good way to distinguish power issues from mechanical issues
> other than a new pump? A friend suggested filling the Racor bowl with fuel,
> then turning on the pump and see if it draws the level down.  The only
> problem with this is I don’t know how fast it normally pulls fuel so not
> sure how to tell if it was pumping, but not fast enough.
>
> Any thoughts welcome.  Home now, but plan to go down on Wednesday and work
> on fixing the problem.
> Thanks- Dave
>
> S/V Aries
> 1990 C 34+
> New London, CT
>
>
> Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with
> the costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use
> PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks
> - Stu

-- 
Sent from Gmail Mobile
Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu