Re: Stus-List Spinnaker pole handling
My check stays came with the boat and I still use them--the XL mast from Southern Spars is relatively 'bendy', not a tree trunk like the 35, etc. Although they are a little of a PITA, I think they do hold the mast to windward (although their 'pull' is mostly to the port and starboard quarter). While racing, the windward stay is tightened by the headsail trimmer while the leeward is released by the other headsail trimmer. Since they do not pull against a baby stay any long, they don't 'bend' the mast so much as 'stiffen' it. Charlie Nelson '95 C&C 36 XL/kcb Water Phantom cenel...@aol.com -Original Message- From: jacob fuerst via CnC-List To: cnc-list Cc: jacob fuerst Sent: Fri, Dec 9, 2016 9:05 pm Subject: Re: Stus-List Spinnaker pole handling Did you add check stays? I have the baby stay but no check stays. Jacob Fuerst '78 C&C 36 303-520-4669 On Dec 4, 2016 8:04 PM, "Charlie Nelson via CnC-List" wrote: Not any longer--ditched that many years ago on the advice on my sailmaker who saw little reason for it on a masthead rig without swept back spreaders and with check stays except for reducing pumping in chop. Charlie cenel...@aol.com -Original Message- From: jacob fuerst via CnC-List To: cnc-list Cc: jacob fuerst Sent: Sun, Dec 4, 2016 9:34 pm Subject: Re: Stus-List Spinnaker pole handling Do you have a baby stay? Jacob Fuerst '78 C&C 36 303-520-4669 On Dec 4, 2016 6:21 PM, "Charlie Nelson via CnC-List" wrote: We use a carbon fiber pole on Water Phantom, C&C 36 XL/kcb, for our kite(s) and have 'oscillated' back and forth between doing dip-pole jibes or end-for-end. The pole is a relatively light Forte carbon fiber pole with snap-in fitting on both ends. We always use lazy sheets and guys. As the driver, I don't have strong feelings about which method we use or should use. However, especially in breezes above 8 knots, it looks to me like our jibes are taking too much time when we end for end the pole. Of course I share some of the blame if I can't keep the boat headed downwind during the jibe but even when I seem to manage keeping her downwind, the mast man struggles to get the pole into the fitting and made--taking valuable time and giving a lot of downwind separation to our competitors. Of course, it also puts him at risk for the pole smashing him about the head and shoulders if the pressure builds on the kite before he has it made. I am convinced that my boat can sail to her rating upwind in breezes above about 8 knots--less not so much!--but downwind we often waste what seems like too much time on jibing. I say this with confidence since when we raced non-spin with a whisker pole, until we learned how to set the pole downwind, we would beat every boat to the windward mark and have most of them pass us on the way downwind. Once we got the mechanics straightened out, no one passed us downwind even if a few gained on us. OTOH, if we dip pole, the bow person often gets the new guy in the pole in the incorrect position (with his back to the bow), so there is certainly a need for more practice. My question for the list is what method should we invest practice time in so that jibing can be as routine as tacking. It seems that at 36 ft Water Phantom and a fiber pole could go either way but I would prefer to always use the same method so that we have a chance to get quick at it. Charlie Nelson Water Phantom C&C 36 XL/kcb cenel...@aol.com ___ This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish to make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to: https://www.paypal.me/stumurray All Contributions are greatly appreciated! ___ This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish to make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to: https://www.paypal.me/stumurray All Contributions are greatly appreciated! ___ This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish to make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to: https://www.paypal.me/stumurray All Contributions are greatly appreciated! ___ This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish to make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to: https://www.paypal.me/stumurray All Contributions are greatly appreciated! ___ This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish to make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to: https://www.paypal.me/stumurray All Contributions are greatly appreciated!
Re: Stus-List Spinnaker pole handling
Did you add check stays? I have the baby stay but no check stays. Jacob Fuerst '78 C&C 36 303-520-4669 On Dec 4, 2016 8:04 PM, "Charlie Nelson via CnC-List" wrote: > Not any longer--ditched that many years ago on the advice on my sailmaker > who saw little reason for it on a masthead rig without swept back spreaders > and with check stays except for reducing pumping in chop. > > Charlie > > cenel...@aol.com > > > -Original Message- > From: jacob fuerst via CnC-List > To: cnc-list > Cc: jacob fuerst > Sent: Sun, Dec 4, 2016 9:34 pm > Subject: Re: Stus-List Spinnaker pole handling > > Do you have a baby stay? > > Jacob Fuerst > '78 C&C 36 > 303-520-4669 <(303)%20520-4669> > > On Dec 4, 2016 6:21 PM, "Charlie Nelson via CnC-List" < > cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote: > >> We use a carbon fiber pole on Water Phantom, C&C 36 XL/kcb, for our >> kite(s) and have 'oscillated' back and forth between doing dip-pole jibes >> or end-for-end. The pole is a relatively light Forte carbon fiber pole with >> snap-in fitting on both ends. >> >> We always use lazy sheets and guys. >> >> As the driver, I don't have strong feelings about which method we use or >> should use. >> >> However, especially in breezes above 8 knots, it looks to me like our >> jibes are taking too much time when we end for end the pole. Of course I >> share some of the blame if I can't keep the boat headed downwind during the >> jibe but even when I seem to manage keeping her downwind, the mast man >> struggles to get the pole into the fitting and made--taking valuable time >> and giving a lot of downwind separation to our competitors. Of course, it >> also puts him at risk for the pole smashing him about the head and >> shoulders if the pressure builds on the kite before he has it made. >> >> I am convinced that my boat can sail to her rating upwind in breezes >> above about 8 knots--less not so much!--but downwind we often waste what >> seems like too much time on jibing. I say this with confidence since when >> we raced non-spin with a whisker pole, until we learned how to set the pole >> downwind, we would beat every boat to the windward mark and have most of >> them pass us on the way downwind. Once we got the mechanics straightened >> out, no one passed us downwind even if a few gained on us. >> >> OTOH, if we dip pole, the bow person often gets the new guy in the pole >> in the incorrect position (with his back to the bow), so there is certainly >> a need for more practice. >> >> My question for the list is what method should we invest practice time in >> so that jibing can be as routine as tacking. It seems that at 36 ft Water >> Phantom and a fiber pole could go either way but I would prefer to always >> use the same method so that we have a chance to get quick at it. >> >> Charlie Nelson >> Water Phantom >> C&C 36 XL/kcb >> >> >> cenel...@aol.com >> >> ___ >> >> This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you >> wish to make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to: >> https://www.paypal.me/stumurray >> >> All Contributions are greatly appreciated! >> >> ___ > > This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you > wish to make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to: > https://www.paypal.me/stumurray > > All Contributions are greatly appreciated! > > ___ > > This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you > wish to make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to: > https://www.paypal.me/stumurray > > All Contributions are greatly appreciated! > > ___ This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish to make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to: https://www.paypal.me/stumurray All Contributions are greatly appreciated!
Re: Stus-List Spinnaker pole handling
Loved it. This guy makes me look like a saint. I showed it to my whole crew errr I mean family :-) -Francois 1990 34+ "Take Five" Lake Lanier, GA ___ This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish to make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to: https://www.paypal.me/stumurray All Contributions are greatly appreciated!
Re: Stus-List Spinnaker pole handling
Eric…James Bibb here…picked up 34/36 with a dip pole and am contemplating assymetrical conversion. I had a Cal 29 with a bowsprit, since-line furler set up and concur. Mind sharing more about your set-up? I rarely have 7 people handy enough. NørthWind Architects, LLC James Bibb Principal 126 Seward Street Juneau, AK 99801 p.907.586.6150 ext 205 f.907.586.6181 c.907.321.4265 www.northwindarch.com www.facebook.com/northwindarchitects > On Dec 7, 2016, at 3:52 PM, Eric Baumes via CnC-List > wrote: > > I switched to an asymmetrical with a retrofit bow sprit. I'll never gybe a > symmetrical chute again. > > After the first gybe with the new setup, my crew confessed that used to dread > when the boat turned downwind. > > For everything to work well on a dip gybe you need 7. Now I can fly the chute > and gybe with as few as 2 crew. > > In light wind we sail the angle we probably should have sailed with the > symmetrical. In heavy air we can sail pretty deep. > > Eric > > C&C 34/36 > > On Wed, Dec 7, 2016 at 8:23 AM, Persuasion37 via CnC-List > mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote: > And that is why I don't race. Great video. > > Mike > PERSUASION > C&C 37 K/CB > Long Sault > > On Dec 6, 2016, at 11:40 PM, Kevin Driscoll via CnC-List > mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote: > >> That video is an all time classic in my book. I can not believe it doesn't >> have a gazillion views. >> >> >> On Tue, Dec 6, 2016, 6:58 PM John McKay via CnC-List > <mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote: >> Damn Kevin I howled >> >> How often did I hear these conversation the last racing season! >> >> John >> >> >> >> On Tuesday, December 6, 2016 5:40 PM, Kevin Driscoll via CnC-List >> mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote: >> >> >> Not sure why the ass end of the boat has so much difficulty following >> instructions: https://youtu.be/4MRunq1y2_A <https://youtu.be/4MRunq1y2_A> >> On Tue, Dec 6, 2016 at 1:45 PM Nauset Beach via CnC-List >> mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote: >> Another aspect of smoother end for end gybes with sheets and guys is having >> the foredeck make certain there is plenty of slack lazy guy at the chain >> plates prior to beginning the maneuver – how much slack is determined >> through practice. When the pole is trimmed back as the boat turns down, and >> then tripped, the spin trimmer controls the kite with both sheets and there >> is no load on the new guy. The mast man / foredeck should be able to drop >> the new guy into the jaw and push the pole out and make it on the mast >> without any real load on the pole via the guy. The guy trimmer only trims >> back the new guy after the call of “Made” is heard from the foredeck, and >> then the spin trimmer eases the weather spin sheet as the new guy is brought >> in. >> >> And of course, the helmsman has to not turn up to the new course until that >> call as well… >> >> All it takes is a lot of practice to get everyone on the same page… ;) >> >> From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com >> <mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com>] On Behalf Of Dennis C. via CnC-List >> Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2016 3:04 PM >> To: CnClist mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> >> Cc: Dennis C. mailto:capt...@gmail.com>> >> >> Subject: Re: Stus-List Spinnaker pole handling >> >> Think about it like this, if the center seam on the bottom panel of the >> chute is directly ahead of the boat (centered on the forestay) it is easy to >> move the chute side to side to make the pole on either side. If the center >> seam has prematurely crossed the forestay to the leeward side then the >> foredeck person has to push the sail back to windward to make the pole. >> A simple light air practice exercise is to center the main, steer the boat >> keeping the Windex CENTERED between the tabs and then have the foredeck gybe >> the chute back and forth a few times. Put a piece of tape on the center >> seam of the bottom panel to give a visible reference to the forestay. >> When racing, if the foredeck can complete the gybe and have the pole made on >> the mast while the Windex is still well between the tabs, it should go >> smoothly. The speed of the turn is controlled by the helmsperson! Watch >> the center seam! >> >> Dennis C. >> >> On Tue, Dec 6, 2016 at 1:30 PM, John McKay via CnC-List >> mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote: >> Yikes
Re: Stus-List Spinnaker pole handling
I switched to an asymmetrical with a retrofit bow sprit. I'll never gybe a symmetrical chute again. After the first gybe with the new setup, my crew confessed that used to dread when the boat turned downwind. For everything to work well on a dip gybe you need 7. Now I can fly the chute and gybe with as few as 2 crew. In light wind we sail the angle we probably should have sailed with the symmetrical. In heavy air we can sail pretty deep. Eric C&C 34/36 On Wed, Dec 7, 2016 at 8:23 AM, Persuasion37 via CnC-List < cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote: > And that is why I don't race. Great video. > > Mike > PERSUASION > C&C 37 K/CB > Long Sault > > On Dec 6, 2016, at 11:40 PM, Kevin Driscoll via CnC-List < > cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote: > > That video is an all time classic in my book. I can not believe it doesn't > have a gazillion views. > > On Tue, Dec 6, 2016, 6:58 PM John McKay via CnC-List < > cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote: > >> Damn Kevin I howled >> >> How often did I hear these conversation the last racing season! >> >> John >> >> >> >> On Tuesday, December 6, 2016 5:40 PM, Kevin Driscoll via CnC-List < >> cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote: >> >> >> Not sure why the ass end of the boat has so much difficulty following >> instructions: https://youtu.be/4MRunq1y2_A >> >> On Tue, Dec 6, 2016 at 1:45 PM Nauset Beach via CnC-List < >> cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote: >> >> Another aspect of smoother end for end gybes with sheets and guys is >> having the foredeck make certain there is plenty of slack lazy guy at the >> chain plates prior to beginning the maneuver – how much slack is determined >> through practice. When the pole is trimmed back as the boat turns down, >> and then tripped, the spin trimmer controls the kite with both sheets and >> there is no load on the new guy. The mast man / foredeck should be able to >> drop the new guy into the jaw and push the pole out and make it on the mast >> without any real load on the pole via the guy. The guy trimmer only trims >> back the new guy after the call of “Made” is heard from the foredeck, and >> then the spin trimmer eases the weather spin sheet as the new guy is >> brought in. >> >> And of course, the helmsman has to not turn up to the new course until >> that call as well… >> >> All it takes is a lot of practice to get everyone on the same page… ;) >> >> *From:* CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] *On Behalf Of *Dennis >> C. via CnC-List >> *Sent:* Tuesday, December 06, 2016 3:04 PM >> *To:* CnClist >> *Cc:* Dennis C. >> >> *Subject:* Re: Stus-List Spinnaker pole handling >> >> Think about it like this, if the center seam on the bottom panel of the >> chute is directly ahead of the boat (centered on the forestay) it is easy >> to move the chute side to side to make the pole on either side. If the >> center seam has prematurely crossed the forestay to the leeward side then >> the foredeck person has to push the sail back to windward to make the pole. >> A simple light air practice exercise is to center the main, steer the >> boat keeping the Windex *CENTERED *between the tabs and then have the >> foredeck gybe the chute back and forth a few times. Put a piece of tape on >> the center seam of the bottom panel to give a visible reference to the >> forestay. >> When racing, if the foredeck can complete the gybe and have the pole made >> on the mast while the Windex is still well between the tabs, it should go >> smoothly. The speed of the turn is controlled by the helmsperson! Watch >> the center seam! >> >> Dennis C. >> >> On Tue, Dec 6, 2016 at 1:30 PM, John McKay via CnC-List < >> cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote: >> >> Yikes, and I have been blaming it on the foredeck guys! >> >> On Tuesday, December 6, 2016 12:09 PM, Paul Baker via CnC-List < >> cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote: >> >> As someone who does the pointy end on multiple racing boats, I fully >> concur. Almost all of the FUBAR kite moments are down to the ham-fisted >> monkey at the blunt end [image: ��] >> Cheers, >> Paul. >> >> 1974 27' MkII >> Sidney, BC. >> >> >> ___ >> >> This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you >> wish to make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to: >> https://www.paypal.me/stumurray >> >> All Contributions are greatly appreciated! >> >> >> _
Re: Stus-List Spinnaker pole handling
And that is why I don't race. Great video. Mike PERSUASION C&C 37 K/CB Long Sault > On Dec 6, 2016, at 11:40 PM, Kevin Driscoll via CnC-List > wrote: > > That video is an all time classic in my book. I can not believe it doesn't > have a gazillion views. > > >> On Tue, Dec 6, 2016, 6:58 PM John McKay via CnC-List >> wrote: >> Damn Kevin I howled >> >> How often did I hear these conversation the last racing season! >> >> John >> >> >> >> On Tuesday, December 6, 2016 5:40 PM, Kevin Driscoll via CnC-List >> wrote: >> >> >> Not sure why the ass end of the boat has so much difficulty following >> instructions: https://youtu.be/4MRunq1y2_A >> >> On Tue, Dec 6, 2016 at 1:45 PM Nauset Beach via CnC-List >> wrote: >> Another aspect of smoother end for end gybes with sheets and guys is having >> the foredeck make certain there is plenty of slack lazy guy at the chain >> plates prior to beginning the maneuver – how much slack is determined >> through practice. When the pole is trimmed back as the boat turns down, and >> then tripped, the spin trimmer controls the kite with both sheets and there >> is no load on the new guy. The mast man / foredeck should be able to drop >> the new guy into the jaw and push the pole out and make it on the mast >> without any real load on the pole via the guy. The guy trimmer only trims >> back the new guy after the call of “Made” is heard from the foredeck, and >> then the spin trimmer eases the weather spin sheet as the new guy is brought >> in. >> >> And of course, the helmsman has to not turn up to the new course until that >> call as well… >> >> All it takes is a lot of practice to get everyone on the same page… ;) >> >> From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Dennis C. >> via CnC-List >> Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2016 3:04 PM >> To: CnClist >> Cc: Dennis C. >> >> Subject: Re: Stus-List Spinnaker pole handling >> >> Think about it like this, if the center seam on the bottom panel of the >> chute is directly ahead of the boat (centered on the forestay) it is easy to >> move the chute side to side to make the pole on either side. If the center >> seam has prematurely crossed the forestay to the leeward side then the >> foredeck person has to push the sail back to windward to make the pole. >> A simple light air practice exercise is to center the main, steer the boat >> keeping the Windex CENTERED between the tabs and then have the foredeck gybe >> the chute back and forth a few times. Put a piece of tape on the center >> seam of the bottom panel to give a visible reference to the forestay. >> When racing, if the foredeck can complete the gybe and have the pole made on >> the mast while the Windex is still well between the tabs, it should go >> smoothly. The speed of the turn is controlled by the helmsperson! Watch >> the center seam! >> >> Dennis C. >> >> On Tue, Dec 6, 2016 at 1:30 PM, John McKay via CnC-List >> wrote: >> Yikes, and I have been blaming it on the foredeck guys! >> >> On Tuesday, December 6, 2016 12:09 PM, Paul Baker via CnC-List >> wrote: >> >> As someone who does the pointy end on multiple racing boats, I fully concur. >> Almost all of the FUBAR kite moments are down to the ham-fisted monkey at >> the blunt end >> Cheers, >> Paul. >> >> 1974 27' MkII >> Sidney, BC. >> >> ___ >> >> This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish >> to make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to: >> https://www.paypal.me/stumurray >> >> All Contributions are greatly appreciated! >> >> ___ >> >> This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish >> to make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to: >> https://www.paypal.me/stumurray >> >> All Contributions are greatly appreciated! >> >> >> ___ >> >> This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish >> to make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to: >> https://www.paypal.me/stumurray >> >> All Contributions are greatly appreciated! > ___ > > This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish > to make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to: > https://www.paypal.me/stumurray > > All Contributions are greatly appreciated! ___ This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish to make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to: https://www.paypal.me/stumurray All Contributions are greatly appreciated!
Re: Stus-List Spinnaker pole handling
We need to put that guy on the pointy end of my 42 in 20-25 knots of breeze with the massive chute and (mostly) following seas. Even the church-goers start sounding like him. From: Kevin Driscoll via CnC-List Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2016 11:40 PM To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Cc: Kevin Driscoll Subject: Re: Stus-List Spinnaker pole handling That video is an all time classic in my book. I can not believe it doesn't have a gazillion views. On Tue, Dec 6, 2016, 6:58 PM John McKay via CnC-List wrote: Damn Kevin I howled How often did I hear these conversation the last racing season! John On Tuesday, December 6, 2016 5:40 PM, Kevin Driscoll via CnC-List wrote: Not sure why the ass end of the boat has so much difficulty following instructions: https://youtu.be/4MRunq1y2_A On Tue, Dec 6, 2016 at 1:45 PM Nauset Beach via CnC-List wrote: Another aspect of smoother end for end gybes with sheets and guys is having the foredeck make certain there is plenty of slack lazy guy at the chain plates prior to beginning the maneuver – how much slack is determined through practice. When the pole is trimmed back as the boat turns down, and then tripped, the spin trimmer controls the kite with both sheets and there is no load on the new guy. The mast man / foredeck should be able to drop the new guy into the jaw and push the pole out and make it on the mast without any real load on the pole via the guy. The guy trimmer only trims back the new guy after the call of “Made” is heard from the foredeck, and then the spin trimmer eases the weather spin sheet as the new guy is brought in. And of course, the helmsman has to not turn up to the new course until that call as well… All it takes is a lot of practice to get everyone on the same page… ;) From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Dennis C. via CnC-List Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2016 3:04 PM To: CnClist Cc: Dennis C. Subject: Re: Stus-List Spinnaker pole handling Think about it like this, if the center seam on the bottom panel of the chute is directly ahead of the boat (centered on the forestay) it is easy to move the chute side to side to make the pole on either side. If the center seam has prematurely crossed the forestay to the leeward side then the foredeck person has to push the sail back to windward to make the pole. A simple light air practice exercise is to center the main, steer the boat keeping the Windex CENTERED between the tabs and then have the foredeck gybe the chute back and forth a few times. Put a piece of tape on the center seam of the bottom panel to give a visible reference to the forestay. When racing, if the foredeck can complete the gybe and have the pole made on the mast while the Windex is still well between the tabs, it should go smoothly. The speed of the turn is controlled by the helmsperson! Watch the center seam! Dennis C. On Tue, Dec 6, 2016 at 1:30 PM, John McKay via CnC-List wrote: Yikes, and I have been blaming it on the foredeck guys! On Tuesday, December 6, 2016 12:09 PM, Paul Baker via CnC-List wrote: As someone who does the pointy end on multiple racing boats, I fully concur. Almost all of the FUBAR kite moments are down to the ham-fisted monkey at the blunt end Cheers, Paul. 1974 27' MkII Sidney, BC. ___ This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish to make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to: https://www.paypal.me/stumurray All Contributions are greatly appreciated! ___ This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish to make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to: https://www.paypal.me/stumurray All Contributions are greatly appreciated! ___ This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish to make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to: https://www.paypal.me/stumurray All Contributions are greatly appreciated! ___ This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish to make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to: https://www.paypal.me/stumurray All Contributions are greatly appreciated! ___ This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish to make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to: https://www.paypal.me/stumurray All Contributions are greatly appreciated!
Re: Stus-List Spinnaker pole handling
That video is an all time classic in my book. I can not believe it doesn't have a gazillion views. On Tue, Dec 6, 2016, 6:58 PM John McKay via CnC-List wrote: > Damn Kevin I howled > > How often did I hear these conversation the last racing season! > > John > > > > On Tuesday, December 6, 2016 5:40 PM, Kevin Driscoll via CnC-List < > cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote: > > > Not sure why the ass end of the boat has so much difficulty following > instructions: https://youtu.be/4MRunq1y2_A > > On Tue, Dec 6, 2016 at 1:45 PM Nauset Beach via CnC-List < > cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote: > > Another aspect of smoother end for end gybes with sheets and guys is > having the foredeck make certain there is plenty of slack lazy guy at the > chain plates prior to beginning the maneuver – how much slack is determined > through practice. When the pole is trimmed back as the boat turns down, > and then tripped, the spin trimmer controls the kite with both sheets and > there is no load on the new guy. The mast man / foredeck should be able to > drop the new guy into the jaw and push the pole out and make it on the mast > without any real load on the pole via the guy. The guy trimmer only trims > back the new guy after the call of “Made” is heard from the foredeck, and > then the spin trimmer eases the weather spin sheet as the new guy is > brought in. > > And of course, the helmsman has to not turn up to the new course until > that call as well… > > All it takes is a lot of practice to get everyone on the same page… ;) > > *From:* CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] *On Behalf Of *Dennis > C. via CnC-List > *Sent:* Tuesday, December 06, 2016 3:04 PM > *To:* CnClist > *Cc:* Dennis C. > > *Subject:* Re: Stus-List Spinnaker pole handling > > Think about it like this, if the center seam on the bottom panel of the > chute is directly ahead of the boat (centered on the forestay) it is easy > to move the chute side to side to make the pole on either side. If the > center seam has prematurely crossed the forestay to the leeward side then > the foredeck person has to push the sail back to windward to make the pole. > A simple light air practice exercise is to center the main, steer the boat > keeping the Windex *CENTERED *between the tabs and then have the foredeck > gybe the chute back and forth a few times. Put a piece of tape on the > center seam of the bottom panel to give a visible reference to the forestay. > When racing, if the foredeck can complete the gybe and have the pole made > on the mast while the Windex is still well between the tabs, it should go > smoothly. The speed of the turn is controlled by the helmsperson! Watch > the center seam! > > Dennis C. > > On Tue, Dec 6, 2016 at 1:30 PM, John McKay via CnC-List < > cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote: > > Yikes, and I have been blaming it on the foredeck guys! > > On Tuesday, December 6, 2016 12:09 PM, Paul Baker via CnC-List < > cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote: > > As someone who does the pointy end on multiple racing boats, I fully > concur. Almost all of the FUBAR kite moments are down to the ham-fisted > monkey at the blunt end [image: ��] > Cheers, > Paul. > > 1974 27' MkII > Sidney, BC. > > > ___ > > This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you > wish to make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to: > https://www.paypal.me/stumurray > > All Contributions are greatly appreciated! > > > ___ > > This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you > wish to make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to: > https://www.paypal.me/stumurray > > All Contributions are greatly appreciated! > > > ___ > > This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you > wish to make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to: > https://www.paypal.me/stumurray > > All Contributions are greatly appreciated! > ___ This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish to make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to: https://www.paypal.me/stumurray All Contributions are greatly appreciated!
Re: Stus-List Spinnaker pole handling
Damn Kevin I howled How often did I hear these conversation the last racing season! John On Tuesday, December 6, 2016 5:40 PM, Kevin Driscoll via CnC-List wrote: Not sure why the ass end of the boat has so much difficulty following instructions: https://youtu.be/4MRunq1y2_A On Tue, Dec 6, 2016 at 1:45 PM Nauset Beach via CnC-List wrote: Another aspect of smoother end for end gybes with sheets and guys is having the foredeck make certain there is plenty of slack lazy guy at the chain plates prior to beginning the maneuver – how much slack is determined through practice. When the pole is trimmed back as the boat turns down, and then tripped, the spin trimmer controls the kite with both sheets and there is no load on the new guy. The mast man / foredeck should be able to drop the new guy into the jaw and push the pole out and make it on the mast without any real load on the pole via the guy. The guy trimmer only trims back the new guy after the call of “Made” is heard from the foredeck, and then the spin trimmer eases the weather spin sheet as the new guy is brought in. And of course, the helmsman has to not turn up to the new course until that call as well… All it takes is a lot of practice to get everyone on the same page… ;) From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Dennis C. via CnC-List Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2016 3:04 PM To: CnClist Cc: Dennis C. Subject: Re: Stus-List Spinnaker pole handling Think about it like this, if the center seam on the bottom panel of the chute is directly ahead of the boat (centered on the forestay) it is easy to move the chute side to side to make the pole on either side. If the center seam has prematurely crossed the forestay to the leeward side then the foredeck person has to push the sail back to windward to make the pole.A simple light air practice exercise is to center the main, steer the boat keeping the Windex CENTERED between the tabs and then have the foredeck gybe the chute back and forth a few times. Put a piece of tape on the center seam of the bottom panel to give a visible reference to the forestay.When racing, if the foredeck can complete the gybe and have the pole made on the mast while the Windex is still well between the tabs, it should go smoothly. The speed of the turn is controlled by the helmsperson! Watch the center seam! Dennis C. On Tue, Dec 6, 2016 at 1:30 PM, John McKay via CnC-List wrote: Yikes, and I have been blaming it on the foredeck guys! On Tuesday, December 6, 2016 12:09 PM, Paul Baker via CnC-List wrote: As someone who does the pointy end on multiple racing boats, I fully concur. Almost all of the FUBAR kite moments are down to the ham-fisted monkey at the blunt end Cheers,Paul. 1974 27' MkII Sidney, BC. ___ This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish to make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to: https://www.paypal.me/stumurray All Contributions are greatly appreciated! ___ This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish to make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to: https://www.paypal.me/stumurray All Contributions are greatly appreciated! ___ This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish to make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to: https://www.paypal.me/stumurray All Contributions are greatly appreciated!
Re: Stus-List Spinnaker pole handling
Not sure why the ass end of the boat has so much difficulty following instructions: https://youtu.be/4MRunq1y2_A On Tue, Dec 6, 2016 at 1:45 PM Nauset Beach via CnC-List < cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote: > Another aspect of smoother end for end gybes with sheets and guys is > having the foredeck make certain there is plenty of slack lazy guy at the > chain plates prior to beginning the maneuver – how much slack is determined > through practice. When the pole is trimmed back as the boat turns down, > and then tripped, the spin trimmer controls the kite with both sheets and > there is no load on the new guy. The mast man / foredeck should be able to > drop the new guy into the jaw and push the pole out and make it on the mast > without any real load on the pole via the guy. The guy trimmer only trims > back the new guy after the call of “Made” is heard from the foredeck, and > then the spin trimmer eases the weather spin sheet as the new guy is > brought in. > > > > And of course, the helmsman has to not turn up to the new course until > that call as well… > > > > All it takes is a lot of practice to get everyone on the same page… ;) > > > > *From:* CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] *On Behalf Of *Dennis > C. via CnC-List > *Sent:* Tuesday, December 06, 2016 3:04 PM > *To:* CnClist > *Cc:* Dennis C. > > > *Subject:* Re: Stus-List Spinnaker pole handling > > > > Think about it like this, if the center seam on the bottom panel of the > chute is directly ahead of the boat (centered on the forestay) it is easy > to move the chute side to side to make the pole on either side. If the > center seam has prematurely crossed the forestay to the leeward side then > the foredeck person has to push the sail back to windward to make the pole. > > A simple light air practice exercise is to center the main, steer the boat > keeping the Windex *CENTERED *between the tabs and then have the foredeck > gybe the chute back and forth a few times. Put a piece of tape on the > center seam of the bottom panel to give a visible reference to the forestay. > > When racing, if the foredeck can complete the gybe and have the pole made > on the mast while the Windex is still well between the tabs, it should go > smoothly. The speed of the turn is controlled by the helmsperson! Watch > the center seam! > > > > Dennis C. > > > > On Tue, Dec 6, 2016 at 1:30 PM, John McKay via CnC-List < > cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote: > > Yikes, and I have been blaming it on the foredeck guys! > > > > On Tuesday, December 6, 2016 12:09 PM, Paul Baker via CnC-List < > cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote: > > > > As someone who does the pointy end on multiple racing boats, I fully > concur. Almost all of the FUBAR kite moments are down to the ham-fisted > monkey at the blunt end [image: ��] > > Cheers, > > Paul. > > > > 1974 27' MkII > > Sidney, BC. > > > ___ > > This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you > wish to make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to: > https://www.paypal.me/stumurray > > All Contributions are greatly appreciated! > ___ This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish to make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to: https://www.paypal.me/stumurray All Contributions are greatly appreciated!
Re: Stus-List Spinnaker pole handling
Another aspect of smoother end for end gybes with sheets and guys is having the foredeck make certain there is plenty of slack lazy guy at the chain plates prior to beginning the maneuver – how much slack is determined through practice. When the pole is trimmed back as the boat turns down, and then tripped, the spin trimmer controls the kite with both sheets and there is no load on the new guy. The mast man / foredeck should be able to drop the new guy into the jaw and push the pole out and make it on the mast without any real load on the pole via the guy. The guy trimmer only trims back the new guy after the call of “Made” is heard from the foredeck, and then the spin trimmer eases the weather spin sheet as the new guy is brought in. And of course, the helmsman has to not turn up to the new course until that call as well… All it takes is a lot of practice to get everyone on the same page… ;) From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Dennis C. via CnC-List Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2016 3:04 PM To: CnClist Cc: Dennis C. Subject: Re: Stus-List Spinnaker pole handling Think about it like this, if the center seam on the bottom panel of the chute is directly ahead of the boat (centered on the forestay) it is easy to move the chute side to side to make the pole on either side. If the center seam has prematurely crossed the forestay to the leeward side then the foredeck person has to push the sail back to windward to make the pole. A simple light air practice exercise is to center the main, steer the boat keeping the Windex CENTERED between the tabs and then have the foredeck gybe the chute back and forth a few times. Put a piece of tape on the center seam of the bottom panel to give a visible reference to the forestay. When racing, if the foredeck can complete the gybe and have the pole made on the mast while the Windex is still well between the tabs, it should go smoothly. The speed of the turn is controlled by the helmsperson! Watch the center seam! Dennis C. On Tue, Dec 6, 2016 at 1:30 PM, John McKay via CnC-List mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com> > wrote: Yikes, and I have been blaming it on the foredeck guys! On Tuesday, December 6, 2016 12:09 PM, Paul Baker via CnC-List mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com> > wrote: As someone who does the pointy end on multiple racing boats, I fully concur. Almost all of the FUBAR kite moments are down to the ham-fisted monkey at the blunt end Cheers, Paul. 1974 27' MkII Sidney, BC. ___ This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish to make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to: https://www.paypal.me/stumurray All Contributions are greatly appreciated!
Re: Stus-List Spinnaker pole handling
Think about it like this, if the center seam on the bottom panel of the chute is directly ahead of the boat (centered on the forestay) it is easy to move the chute side to side to make the pole on either side. If the center seam has prematurely crossed the forestay to the leeward side then the foredeck person has to push the sail back to windward to make the pole. A simple light air practice exercise is to center the main, steer the boat keeping the Windex *CENTERED *between the tabs and then have the foredeck gybe the chute back and forth a few times. Put a piece of tape on the center seam of the bottom panel to give a visible reference to the forestay. When racing, if the foredeck can complete the gybe and have the pole made on the mast while the Windex is still well between the tabs, it should go smoothly. The speed of the turn is controlled by the helmsperson! Watch the center seam! Dennis C. On Tue, Dec 6, 2016 at 1:30 PM, John McKay via CnC-List < cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote: > Yikes, and I have been blaming it on the foredeck guys! > > > On Tuesday, December 6, 2016 12:09 PM, Paul Baker via CnC-List < > cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote: > > > As someone who does the pointy end on multiple racing boats, I fully > concur. Almost all of the FUBAR kite moments are down to the ham-fisted > monkey at the blunt end [image: ��] > Cheers, > Paul. > > 1974 27' MkII > Sidney, BC. > > -- > *From:* CnC-List on behalf of David > Kaseler via CnC-List > *Sent:* December 5, 2016 6:09 PM > *To:* cnc-list@cnc-list.com > *Cc:* David Kaseler; Michael Brown > *Subject:* Re: Stus-List Spinnaker pole handling > > Turns out, in my view, the success of spinnaker set, gybe and take down is > controlled at the helm. When the boat is correctly driven through the > maneuver the job on the foredeck is much more manageable. Please don't tell > my wife the skipper. > Dave. K > SLY 1975 C&C 33 > > Sent from my iPad > > > > ___ > > This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you > wish to make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to: > https://www.paypal.me/stumurray > > All Contributions are greatly appreciated! > > > > ___ > > This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you > wish to make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to: > https://www.paypal.me/stumurray > > All Contributions are greatly appreciated! > > ___ This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish to make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to: https://www.paypal.me/stumurray All Contributions are greatly appreciated!
Re: Stus-List Spinnaker pole handling
Yikes, and I have been blaming it on the foredeck guys!
On Tuesday, December 6, 2016 12:09 PM, Paul Baker via CnC-List
wrote:
#yiv8286461759 #yiv8286461759 -- P
{margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;}#yiv8286461759 As someone who does the pointy
end on multiple racing boats, I fully concur. Almost all of the FUBAR kite
moments are down to the ham-fisted monkey at the blunt endCheers,Paul.
1974 27' MkIISidney, BC.
From: CnC-List on behalf of David Kaseler via
CnC-List
Sent: December 5, 2016 6:09 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: David Kaseler; Michael Brown
Subject: Re: Stus-List Spinnaker pole handling Turns out, in my view, the
success of spinnaker set, gybe and take down is controlled at the helm. When
the boat is correctly driven through the maneuver the job on the foredeck is
much more manageable. Please don't tell my wife the skipper.Dave. KSLY 1975 C&C
33
Sent from my iPad
___
This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish to
make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
All Contributions are greatly appreciated!
___
This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish to
make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
All Contributions are greatly appreciated!
Re: Stus-List Spinnaker pole handling
As someone who does the pointy end on multiple racing boats, I fully concur. Almost all of the FUBAR kite moments are down to the ham-fisted monkey at the blunt end [😉] Cheers, Paul. 1974 27' MkII Sidney, BC. From: CnC-List on behalf of David Kaseler via CnC-List Sent: December 5, 2016 6:09 PM To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Cc: David Kaseler; Michael Brown Subject: Re: Stus-List Spinnaker pole handling Turns out, in my view, the success of spinnaker set, gybe and take down is controlled at the helm. When the boat is correctly driven through the maneuver the job on the foredeck is much more manageable. Please don't tell my wife the skipper. Dave. K SLY 1975 C&C 33 Sent from my iPad ___ This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish to make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to: https://www.paypal.me/stumurray All Contributions are greatly appreciated!
Re: Stus-List Spinnaker pole handling
Turns out, in my view, the success of spinnaker set, gybe and take down is controlled at the helm. When the boat is correctly driven through the maneuver the job on the foredeck is much more manageable. Please don't tell my wife the skipper. Dave. K SLY 1975 C&C 33 Sent from my iPad > On Dec 5, 2016, at 8:33 AM, Michael Brown via CnC-List > wrote: > > On Windburn we do end-for-end due to carrying an oversized pole. > The J is 13.5' and the the pole is 14.4'. We normally do not have guys. > > If there is difficulty keeping the chute stable and helping out foredeck > by steering the chute try centering the main for a moment just as they > are about to snap in the mast end. > > Further to what Dennis is advising I find that losing the sail area of the > spinnaker due to it not drawing well is slower than losing the sail area > of the main for 5 - 10 seconds during the gybe. Note that the symmetrical > spinnaker is 850 sq ft vs 225 sq ft for the main on Windburn. > > In very light winds when gybing from a hot angle centering the main > also helps to keep the spinnaker from collapsing and wrapping the > forestay. > > Michael Brown > Windburn > C&C 30-1 > > From: "Dennis C." > > Charlie, > > While many consider 35-36 feet the upper limit for end for end gybes, we > use end for end with an aluminum pole on Touche' (35-1). With the right > technique, you shouldn't have issues. > > I've been doing foredeck since the mid 90's. I think the key to a good, > and safe, end for end gybe is the driver and the way the driver and crew > think about the gybe. > > Many sailors think a chute gybe is moving the chute across the boat. I > don't subscribe to that philosophy. > > A better way to think about gybing is you're moving the BOAT under the > chute. Doesn't sound like much of a difference but it really is. The idea > is to keep the chute flying and drawing while the driver gradually steers > the boat to the new course. If the chute continues to fly effectively, > connecting the pole to the new sheet and then the mast will be nearly > effortless. > > Sit down with your crew and talk about gybing with this philosophy. It may > be the difference you need. > > Dennis C. > Touche' 35-1 #83 > Mandeville, LA > > On Sun, Dec 4, 2016 at 8:20 PM, Charlie Nelson via CnC-List < > cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote: > > > We use a carbon fiber pole on Water Phantom, C&C 36 XL/kcb, for our > > kite(s) and have 'oscillated' back and forth between doing dip-pole jibes > > or end-for-end. The pole is a relatively light Forte carbon fiber pole with > > snap-in fitting on both ends. > > > > We always use lazy sheets and guys. > > > > As the driver, I don't have strong feelings about which method we use or > > should use. > > > > However, especially in breezes above 8 knots, it looks to me like our > > jibes are taking too much time when we end for end the pole. Of course I > > share some of the blame if I can't keep the boat headed downwind during the > > jibe but even when I seem to manage keeping her downwind, the mast man > > struggles to get the pole into the fitting and made--taking valuable time > > and giving a lot of downwind separation to our competitors. Of course, it > > also puts him at risk for the pole smashing him about the head and > > shoulders if the pressure builds on the kite before he has it made. > > > > I am convinced that my boat can sail to her rating upwind in breezes above > > about 8 knots--less not so much!--but downwind we often waste what seems > > like too much time on jibing. I say this with confidence since when we > > raced non-spin with a whisker pole, until we learned how to set the pole > > downwind, we would beat every boat to the windward mark and have most of > > them pass us on the way downwind. Once we got the mechanics straightened > > out, no one passed us downwind even if a few gained on us. > > > > OTOH, if we dip pole, the bow person often gets the new guy in the pole in > > the incorrect position (with his back to the bow), so there is certainly a > > need for more practice. > > > > My question for the list is what method should we invest practice time in > > so that jibing can be as routine as tacking. It seems that at 36 ft Water > > Phantom and a fiber pole could go either way but I would prefer to always > > use the same method so that we have a chance to get quick at it. > > > > Charlie Nelson > > Water Phantom > > C&C 36 XL/kcb > > > > cenel...@aol.com > ___ > > This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish > to make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to: > https://www.paypal.me/stumurray > > All Contributions are greatly appreciated! ___ This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish to make a contribution to offset our costs, please g
Re: Stus-List Spinnaker pole handling
On Windburn we do end-for-end due to carrying an oversized pole. The J is 13.5' and the the pole is 14.4'. We normally do not have guys. If there is difficulty keeping the chute stable and helping out foredeck by steering the chute try centering the main for a moment just as they are about to snap in the mast end. Further to what Dennis is advising I find that losing the sail area of the spinnaker due to it not drawing well is slower than losing the sail area of the main for 5 - 10 seconds during the gybe. Note that the symmetrical spinnaker is 850 sq ft vs 225 sq ft for the main on Windburn. In very light winds when gybing from a hot angle centering the main also helps to keep the spinnaker from collapsing and wrapping the forestay. Michael Brown Windburn C&C 30-1 From: "Dennis C." Charlie, While many consider 35-36 feet the upper limit for end for end gybes, we use end for end with an aluminum pole on Touche' (35-1). With the right technique, you shouldn't have issues. I've been doing foredeck since the mid 90's. I think the key to a good, and safe, end for end gybe is the driver and the way the driver and crew think about the gybe. Many sailors think a chute gybe is moving the chute across the boat. I don't subscribe to that philosophy. A better way to think about gybing is you're moving the BOAT under the chute. Doesn't sound like much of a difference but it really is. The idea is to keep the chute flying and drawing while the driver gradually steers the boat to the new course. If the chute continues to fly effectively, connecting the pole to the new sheet and then the mast will be nearly effortless. Sit down with your crew and talk about gybing with this philosophy. It may be the difference you need. Dennis C. Touche' 35-1 #83 Mandeville, LA On Sun, Dec 4, 2016 at 8:20 PM, Charlie Nelson via CnC-List < cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote: > We use a carbon fiber pole on Water Phantom, C&C 36 XL/kcb, for our > kite(s) and have 'oscillated' back and forth between doing dip-pole jibes > or end-for-end. The pole is a relatively light Forte carbon fiber pole with > snap-in fitting on both ends. > > We always use lazy sheets and guys. > > As the driver, I don't have strong feelings about which method we use or > should use. > > However, especially in breezes above 8 knots, it looks to me like our > jibes are taking too much time when we end for end the pole. Of course I > share some of the blame if I can't keep the boat headed downwind during the > jibe but even when I seem to manage keeping her downwind, the mast man > struggles to get the pole into the fitting and made--taking valuable time > and giving a lot of downwind separation to our competitors. Of course, it > also puts him at risk for the pole smashing him about the head and > shoulders if the pressure builds on the kite before he has it made. > > I am convinced that my boat can sail to her rating upwind in breezes above > about 8 knots--less not so much!--but downwind we often waste what seems > like too much time on jibing. I say this with confidence since when we > raced non-spin with a whisker pole, until we learned how to set the pole > downwind, we would beat every boat to the windward mark and have most of > them pass us on the way downwind. Once we got the mechanics straightened > out, no one passed us downwind even if a few gained on us. > > OTOH, if we dip pole, the bow person often gets the new guy in the pole in > the incorrect position (with his back to the bow), so there is certainly a > need for more practice. > > My question for the list is what method should we invest practice time in > so that jibing can be as routine as tacking. It seems that at 36 ft Water > Phantom and a fiber pole could go either way but I would prefer to always > use the same method so that we have a chance to get quick at it. > > Charlie Nelson > Water Phantom > C&C 36 XL/kcb > > cenel...@aol.com ___ This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish to make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to: https://www.paypal.me/stumurray All Contributions are greatly appreciated!
Re: Stus-List Spinnaker pole handling
I have never done anything but dip-pole gybes on our C&C 35. We have also done "chicken gybes" where you drop the spinnaker totally and rehoist it on the other tack. We did this a couple of times in heavy air and thought we were being total wussies until we realized we gained a few boats over the boats that broke poles, wrapped the chute big time, or otherwise had gybing disasters. Sailing shorthanded and cruising, I fly the chute in asym mode and gybe from the cockpit with no more issues than gybing the genoa. Joe Coquina From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of robert via CnC-List Sent: Monday, December 05, 2016 10:04 To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Cc: robert Subject: Stus-List Spinnaker pole handling Charlie: I was foredeck person racing, and we did a lot of racing. As the boats got bigger we did dip-pole jibes.they are quick, easy and most importantly, safe. Changing from end to end gybes, we made the same mistakes as you, but to do it right, practice, practice and practice.and we did. Before the gybe and trip of the old guy, bring the pole back almost perpendicular so the release is clean. Then as helsman, after the pole is released, square off the spin in front of the boat until the new guy is made.one mistake is that the helsman over steers the boat before the crew completes the jibe. Have mast person raise inboard end of pole ready to trip pole (old guy),..have your foredeck person in front of the forestay crouching down looking back leaning forward on the forestayhe always holds the new guy with the palm always pointed down to drop new guy in jaws .this way the thumb is always pointed back and can be used to pressure the jaw(s|) to close..always hold new guy the same way and you will never wrap jaws..have mast person assist with guiding the pole down to the foredeck person and help the pit man to raise the pole. The dip pole gybe is a choreography with many people doing all the right things at the right time and when you get it right, you won't want to do end for end gybes. The helmsman, pit man, trimmers, mast man and foredeck person all have to pay attention and know what each is doing and when. Go out and practice. Rob Abbott AZURA C&C 32 - 84 Halifax, N.S. On 2016-12-04 10:20 PM, Charlie Nelson via CnC-List wrote: We use a carbon fiber pole on Water Phantom, C&C 36 XL/kcb, for our kite(s) and have 'oscillated' back and forth between doing dip-pole jibes or end-for-end. The pole is a relatively light Forte carbon fiber pole with snap-in fitting on both ends. We always use lazy sheets and guys. As the driver, I don't have strong feelings about which method we use or should use. However, especially in breezes above 8 knots, it looks to me like our jibes are taking too much time when we end for end the pole. Of course I share some of the blame if I can't keep the boat headed downwind during the jibe but even when I seem to manage keeping her downwind, the mast man struggles to get the pole into the fitting and made--taking valuable time and giving a lot of downwind separation to our competitors. Of course, it also puts him at risk for the pole smashing him about the head and shoulders if the pressure builds on the kite before he has it made. I am convinced that my boat can sail to her rating upwind in breezes above about 8 knots--less not so much!--but downwind we often waste what seems like too much time on jibing. I say this with confidence since when we raced non-spin with a whisker pole, until we learned how to set the pole downwind, we would beat every boat to the windward mark and have most of them pass us on the way downwind. Once we got the mechanics straightened out, no one passed us downwind even if a few gained on us. OTOH, if we dip pole, the bow person often gets the new guy in the pole in the incorrect position (with his back to the bow), so there is certainly a need for more practice. My question for the list is what method should we invest practice time in so that jibing can be as routine as tacking. It seems that at 36 ft Water Phantom and a fiber pole could go either way but I would prefer to always use the same method so that we have a chance to get quick at it. Charlie Nelson Water Phantom C&C 36 XL/kcb cenel...@aol.com<mailto:cenel...@aol.com> ___ This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish to make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to: https://www.paypal.me/stumurray All Contributions are greatly appreciated! ___ This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish to make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to: https://www.paypal.me/stumurray All Contributions are greatly appreciated!
Stus-List Spinnaker pole handling
Charlie: I was foredeck person racing, and we did a lot of racing. As the boats got bigger we did dip-pole jibes.they are quick, easy and most importantly, safe. Changing from end to end gybes, we made the same mistakes as you, but to do it right, practice, practice and practice.and we did. Before the gybe and trip of the old guy, bring the pole back almost perpendicular so the release is clean. Then as helsman, after the pole is released, square off the spin in front of the boat until the new guy is made.one mistake is that the helsman over steers the boat before the crew completes the jibe. Have mast person raise inboard end of pole ready to trip pole (old guy),..have your foredeck person in front of the forestay crouching down looking back leaning forward on the forestayhe always holds the new guy with the palm always pointed down to drop new guy in jaws .this way the thumb is always pointed back and can be used to pressure the jaw(s|) to close..always hold new guy the same way and you will never wrap jaws..have mast person assist with guiding the pole down to the foredeck person and help the pit man to raise the pole. The dip pole gybe is a choreography with many people doing all the right things at the right time and when you get it right, you won't want to do end for end gybes. The helmsman, pit man, trimmers, mast man and foredeck person all have to pay attention and know what each is doing and when. Go out and practice. Rob Abbott AZURA C&C 32 - 84 Halifax, N.S. On 2016-12-04 10:20 PM, Charlie Nelson via CnC-List wrote: We use a carbon fiber pole on Water Phantom, C&C 36 XL/kcb, for our kite(s) and have 'oscillated' back and forth between doing dip-pole jibes or end-for-end. The pole is a relatively light Forte carbon fiber pole with snap-in fitting on both ends. We always use lazy sheets and guys. As the driver, I don't have strong feelings about which method we use or should use. However, especially in breezes above 8 knots, it looks to me like our jibes are taking too much time when we end for end the pole. Of course I share some of the blame if I can't keep the boat headed downwind during the jibe but even when I seem to manage keeping her downwind, the mast man struggles to get the pole into the fitting and made--taking valuable time and giving a lot of downwind separation to our competitors. Of course, it also puts him at risk for the pole smashing him about the head and shoulders if the pressure builds on the kite before he has it made. I am convinced that my boat can sail to her rating upwind in breezes above about 8 knots--less not so much!--but downwind we often waste what seems like too much time on jibing. I say this with confidence since when we raced non-spin with a whisker pole, until we learned how to set the pole downwind, we would beat every boat to the windward mark and have most of them pass us on the way downwind. Once we got the mechanics straightened out, no one passed us downwind even if a few gained on us. OTOH, if we dip pole, the bow person often gets the new guy in the pole in the incorrect position (with his back to the bow), so there is certainly a need for more practice. My question for the list is what method should we invest practice time in so that jibing can be as routine as tacking. It seems that at 36 ft Water Phantom and a fiber pole could go either way but I would prefer to always use the same method so that we have a chance to get quick at it. Charlie Nelson Water Phantom C&C 36 XL/kcb cenel...@aol.com ___ This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish to make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to: https://www.paypal.me/stumurray All Contributions are greatly appreciated! ___ This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish to make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to: https://www.paypal.me/stumurray All Contributions are greatly appreciated!
Re: Stus-List Spinnaker pole handling
Charlie: I have a 42 and we only dip the pole. I have raced on smaller boats, however, and Mike’s assessment is good. That said, your question indicates that you want to commit to one method or the other (to get really good at it), and you’re asking for a suggestion as to which one to choose. Given that the dip method will most certainly need to be used above 10 knots or so on your boat, I would commit to this method. Otherwise, your crew will continue to practice two methods and may not master one. My two cents. MLW From: Hoyt, Mike via CnC-List Sent: Monday, December 05, 2016 9:00 AM To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Cc: Hoyt, Mike Subject: Re: Stus-List Spinnaker pole handling Hi Charlie I would like to first say that our family had a 1981 C&C 36 since new for nine years. However we rarely flew the spinnaker on it, never raced and I do not recall ever gybing. That said I did feel that it was a big powerful boat at the time. On our boats we have always done end for end because it is simpler and faster. Initially on our Niagara 26 we did dip pole (because I knew no other way) and it was slow and un-necessary and we switched to end for end. We carried this over to the J/27 as well. We have always sailed with just one sheet/guy on either side. In the Frers fleet however at 33 feet LOA dip pole starts to become more common and half the boats use separate sheets and guys and some do dip pole when the wind pipes up. We have stayed with end for end and one set of lines because it is easier and because I have no intention of flying the chute when it is truly windy. On a friend’s C&C33-2 the pole has ends that only allow dip pole and they are considering changing so they can do end for end. With the C&C 115 we were always dip pole. The pole is set up so only that is possible. >From what I understand after a certain size dip pole is not only much safer >but just about all that is possible. I would think that a C&C 36 is pretty >much approaching that size with its masthead rig and relatively large J. On our boat I often end up doing foredeck (because we have a lot of people capable of doing the other jobs). There are usually two factors that make an end for end gybe difficult. The first is the driver turning before the mast end is made which puts excessive pressure on the pole and can make completing the gybe nearly impossible. The second is when the person on the new guy sheets it in too soon putting pressure on the mast end. As it gets windier both of these situations become more difficult to resolve On the C&C 115 I was on main. Of course like many main trimmers I would too often watch the foredeck rather than my sail. Dip pole required a good mast man along with a good bow man and they had to be in sync. With the extra line we very frequently managed to wrap the new guy around the jaws rather thn allowing it to move freely. Many times we did not have smooth gybes as a result. From this perspective end for end would be much simpler If the 36 were my boat and we were used to end for end I would stick with that up til 8 knows with single sheet and guy and then dip pole with double sheet/guy above that. This would make for the quickest gybes IMO Mike From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Charlie Nelson via CnC-List Sent: Sunday, December 04, 2016 10:21 PM To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Cc: cenel...@aol.com Subject: Stus-List Spinnaker pole handling We use a carbon fiber pole on Water Phantom, C&C 36 XL/kcb, for our kite(s) and have 'oscillated' back and forth between doing dip-pole jibes or end-for-end. The pole is a relatively light Forte carbon fiber pole with snap-in fitting on both ends. We always use lazy sheets and guys. As the driver, I don't have strong feelings about which method we use or should use. However, especially in breezes above 8 knots, it looks to me like our jibes are taking too much time when we end for end the pole. Of course I share some of the blame if I can't keep the boat headed downwind during the jibe but even when I seem to manage keeping her downwind, the mast man struggles to get the pole into the fitting and made--taking valuable time and giving a lot of downwind separation to our competitors. Of course, it also puts him at risk for the pole smashing him about the head and shoulders if the pressure builds on the kite before he has it made. I am convinced that my boat can sail to her rating upwind in breezes above about 8 knots--less not so much!--but downwind we often waste what seems like too much time on jibing. I say this with confidence since when we raced non-spin with a whisker pole, until we learned how to set the pole downwind, we would beat every boat to the windward mark and have most of them pass us on the way downwind. Once we got the mechanics straightened
Re: Stus-List Spinnaker pole handling
Hi Charlie I would like to first say that our family had a 1981 C&C 36 since new for nine years. However we rarely flew the spinnaker on it, never raced and I do not recall ever gybing. That said I did feel that it was a big powerful boat at the time. On our boats we have always done end for end because it is simpler and faster. Initially on our Niagara 26 we did dip pole (because I knew no other way) and it was slow and un-necessary and we switched to end for end. We carried this over to the J/27 as well. We have always sailed with just one sheet/guy on either side. In the Frers fleet however at 33 feet LOA dip pole starts to become more common and half the boats use separate sheets and guys and some do dip pole when the wind pipes up. We have stayed with end for end and one set of lines because it is easier and because I have no intention of flying the chute when it is truly windy. On a friend’s C&C33-2 the pole has ends that only allow dip pole and they are considering changing so they can do end for end. With the C&C 115 we were always dip pole. The pole is set up so only that is possible. From what I understand after a certain size dip pole is not only much safer but just about all that is possible. I would think that a C&C 36 is pretty much approaching that size with its masthead rig and relatively large J. On our boat I often end up doing foredeck (because we have a lot of people capable of doing the other jobs). There are usually two factors that make an end for end gybe difficult. The first is the driver turning before the mast end is made which puts excessive pressure on the pole and can make completing the gybe nearly impossible. The second is when the person on the new guy sheets it in too soon putting pressure on the mast end. As it gets windier both of these situations become more difficult to resolve On the C&C 115 I was on main. Of course like many main trimmers I would too often watch the foredeck rather than my sail. Dip pole required a good mast man along with a good bow man and they had to be in sync. With the extra line we very frequently managed to wrap the new guy around the jaws rather thn allowing it to move freely. Many times we did not have smooth gybes as a result. From this perspective end for end would be much simpler If the 36 were my boat and we were used to end for end I would stick with that up til 8 knows with single sheet and guy and then dip pole with double sheet/guy above that. This would make for the quickest gybes IMO Mike From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Charlie Nelson via CnC-List Sent: Sunday, December 04, 2016 10:21 PM To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Cc: cenel...@aol.com Subject: Stus-List Spinnaker pole handling We use a carbon fiber pole on Water Phantom, C&C 36 XL/kcb, for our kite(s) and have 'oscillated' back and forth between doing dip-pole jibes or end-for-end. The pole is a relatively light Forte carbon fiber pole with snap-in fitting on both ends. We always use lazy sheets and guys. As the driver, I don't have strong feelings about which method we use or should use. However, especially in breezes above 8 knots, it looks to me like our jibes are taking too much time when we end for end the pole. Of course I share some of the blame if I can't keep the boat headed downwind during the jibe but even when I seem to manage keeping her downwind, the mast man struggles to get the pole into the fitting and made--taking valuable time and giving a lot of downwind separation to our competitors. Of course, it also puts him at risk for the pole smashing him about the head and shoulders if the pressure builds on the kite before he has it made. I am convinced that my boat can sail to her rating upwind in breezes above about 8 knots--less not so much!--but downwind we often waste what seems like too much time on jibing. I say this with confidence since when we raced non-spin with a whisker pole, until we learned how to set the pole downwind, we would beat every boat to the windward mark and have most of them pass us on the way downwind. Once we got the mechanics straightened out, no one passed us downwind even if a few gained on us. OTOH, if we dip pole, the bow person often gets the new guy in the pole in the incorrect position (with his back to the bow), so there is certainly a need for more practice. My question for the list is what method should we invest practice time in so that jibing can be as routine as tacking. It seems that at 36 ft Water Phantom and a fiber pole could go either way but I would prefer to always use the same method so that we have a chance to get quick at it. Charlie Nelson Water Phantom C&C 36 XL/kcb cenel...@aol.com<mailto:cenel...@aol.com> ___ This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish to
Re: Stus-List Spinnaker pole handling
Not any longer--ditched that many years ago on the advice on my sailmaker who saw little reason for it on a masthead rig without swept back spreaders and with check stays except for reducing pumping in chop. Charlie cenel...@aol.com -Original Message- From: jacob fuerst via CnC-List To: cnc-list Cc: jacob fuerst Sent: Sun, Dec 4, 2016 9:34 pm Subject: Re: Stus-List Spinnaker pole handling Do you have a baby stay? Jacob Fuerst '78 C&C 36 303-520-4669 On Dec 4, 2016 6:21 PM, "Charlie Nelson via CnC-List" wrote: We use a carbon fiber pole on Water Phantom, C&C 36 XL/kcb, for our kite(s) and have 'oscillated' back and forth between doing dip-pole jibes or end-for-end. The pole is a relatively light Forte carbon fiber pole with snap-in fitting on both ends. We always use lazy sheets and guys. As the driver, I don't have strong feelings about which method we use or should use. However, especially in breezes above 8 knots, it looks to me like our jibes are taking too much time when we end for end the pole. Of course I share some of the blame if I can't keep the boat headed downwind during the jibe but even when I seem to manage keeping her downwind, the mast man struggles to get the pole into the fitting and made--taking valuable time and giving a lot of downwind separation to our competitors. Of course, it also puts him at risk for the pole smashing him about the head and shoulders if the pressure builds on the kite before he has it made. I am convinced that my boat can sail to her rating upwind in breezes above about 8 knots--less not so much!--but downwind we often waste what seems like too much time on jibing. I say this with confidence since when we raced non-spin with a whisker pole, until we learned how to set the pole downwind, we would beat every boat to the windward mark and have most of them pass us on the way downwind. Once we got the mechanics straightened out, no one passed us downwind even if a few gained on us. OTOH, if we dip pole, the bow person often gets the new guy in the pole in the incorrect position (with his back to the bow), so there is certainly a need for more practice. My question for the list is what method should we invest practice time in so that jibing can be as routine as tacking. It seems that at 36 ft Water Phantom and a fiber pole could go either way but I would prefer to always use the same method so that we have a chance to get quick at it. Charlie Nelson Water Phantom C&C 36 XL/kcb cenel...@aol.com ___ This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish to make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to: https://www.paypal.me/stumurray All Contributions are greatly appreciated! ___ This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish to make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to: https://www.paypal.me/stumurray All Contributions are greatly appreciated! ___ This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish to make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to: https://www.paypal.me/stumurray All Contributions are greatly appreciated!
Re: Stus-List Spinnaker pole handling
Charlie, While many consider 35-36 feet the upper limit for end for end gybes, we use end for end with an aluminum pole on Touche' (35-1). With the right technique, you shouldn't have issues. I've been doing foredeck since the mid 90's. I think the key to a good, and safe, end for end gybe is the driver and the way the driver and crew think about the gybe. Many sailors think a chute gybe is moving the chute across the boat. I don't subscribe to that philosophy. A better way to think about gybing is you're moving the BOAT under the chute. Doesn't sound like much of a difference but it really is. The idea is to keep the chute flying and drawing while the driver gradually steers the boat to the new course. If the chute continues to fly effectively, connecting the pole to the new sheet and then the mast will be nearly effortless. Sit down with your crew and talk about gybing with this philosophy. It may be the difference you need. Dennis C. Touche' 35-1 #83 Mandeville, LA On Sun, Dec 4, 2016 at 8:20 PM, Charlie Nelson via CnC-List < cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote: > We use a carbon fiber pole on Water Phantom, C&C 36 XL/kcb, for our > kite(s) and have 'oscillated' back and forth between doing dip-pole jibes > or end-for-end. The pole is a relatively light Forte carbon fiber pole with > snap-in fitting on both ends. > > We always use lazy sheets and guys. > > As the driver, I don't have strong feelings about which method we use or > should use. > > However, especially in breezes above 8 knots, it looks to me like our > jibes are taking too much time when we end for end the pole. Of course I > share some of the blame if I can't keep the boat headed downwind during the > jibe but even when I seem to manage keeping her downwind, the mast man > struggles to get the pole into the fitting and made--taking valuable time > and giving a lot of downwind separation to our competitors. Of course, it > also puts him at risk for the pole smashing him about the head and > shoulders if the pressure builds on the kite before he has it made. > > I am convinced that my boat can sail to her rating upwind in breezes above > about 8 knots--less not so much!--but downwind we often waste what seems > like too much time on jibing. I say this with confidence since when we > raced non-spin with a whisker pole, until we learned how to set the pole > downwind, we would beat every boat to the windward mark and have most of > them pass us on the way downwind. Once we got the mechanics straightened > out, no one passed us downwind even if a few gained on us. > > OTOH, if we dip pole, the bow person often gets the new guy in the pole in > the incorrect position (with his back to the bow), so there is certainly a > need for more practice. > > My question for the list is what method should we invest practice time in > so that jibing can be as routine as tacking. It seems that at 36 ft Water > Phantom and a fiber pole could go either way but I would prefer to always > use the same method so that we have a chance to get quick at it. > > Charlie Nelson > Water Phantom > C&C 36 XL/kcb > > > cenel...@aol.com > > ___ > > This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you > wish to make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to: > https://www.paypal.me/stumurray > > All Contributions are greatly appreciated! > > ___ This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish to make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to: https://www.paypal.me/stumurray All Contributions are greatly appreciated!
Re: Stus-List Spinnaker pole handling
I've been using dip pole gybes for the past forty years. I even did it that way with my thirty foot Ericson, before getting my present boat. Dip pole gybes are always safer, since you don't have to disconnect the pole from the mast. the crew just needs practice. Get out and gybe back and forth while going downwind, until they get it. Meanwhile, you have to concentrate on steering straight. Don't watch what the crew is doing. If you want to get involved in the gybe, give the helm to someone else, and make sure they steer straight, and not watch the foredeck crew. Alan Bergen 35 Mk III Thirsty Rose City YC Portland, OR On Sun, Dec 4, 2016 at 6:20 PM, Charlie Nelson via CnC-List < cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote: > We use a carbon fiber pole on Water Phantom, C&C 36 XL/kcb, for our > kite(s) and have 'oscillated' back and forth between doing dip-pole jibes > or end-for-end. The pole is a relatively light Forte carbon fiber pole with > snap-in fitting on both ends. > > We always use lazy sheets and guys. > > As the driver, I don't have strong feelings about which method we use or > should use. > > However, especially in breezes above 8 knots, it looks to me like our > jibes are taking too much time when we end for end the pole. Of course I > share some of the blame if I can't keep the boat headed downwind during the > jibe but even when I seem to manage keeping her downwind, the mast man > struggles to get the pole into the fitting and made--taking valuable time > and giving a lot of downwind separation to our competitors. Of course, it > also puts him at risk for the pole smashing him about the head and > shoulders if the pressure builds on the kite before he has it made. > > I am convinced that my boat can sail to her rating upwind in breezes above > about 8 knots--less not so much!--but downwind we often waste what seems > like too much time on jibing. I say this with confidence since when we > raced non-spin with a whisker pole, until we learned how to set the pole > downwind, we would beat every boat to the windward mark and have most of > them pass us on the way downwind. Once we got the mechanics straightened > out, no one passed us downwind even if a few gained on us. > > OTOH, if we dip pole, the bow person often gets the new guy in the pole in > the incorrect position (with his back to the bow), so there is certainly a > need for more practice. > > My question for the list is what method should we invest practice time in > so that jibing can be as routine as tacking. It seems that at 36 ft Water > Phantom and a fiber pole could go either way but I would prefer to always > use the same method so that we have a chance to get quick at it. > > Charlie Nelson > Water Phantom > C&C 36 XL/kcb > > > cenel...@aol.com > > ___ > > This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you > wish to make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to: > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www. > paypal.me_stumurray&d=DgICAg&c=clK7kQUTWtAVEOVIgvi0NU5BOUHhpN > 0H8p7CSfnc_gI&r=9w3G7Cf8YfQnrjmtuNxwDJYr3JMv9f1pAfgAJ9xXYQQ&m= > 64esgnaRtNrru38cSeMV1cCK74ym6SRRTIQCo09WIAI&s=9os9S0Y5FfpJjQWUPU17DyUPj_ > 9MICfQn0C8EOC4aA4&e= > > All Contributions are greatly appreciated! > > -- Alan Bergen 35 Mk III Thirsty Rose City YC Portland, OR ___ This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish to make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to: https://www.paypal.me/stumurray All Contributions are greatly appreciated!
Re: Stus-List Spinnaker pole handling
Do you have a baby stay? Jacob Fuerst '78 C&C 36 303-520-4669 On Dec 4, 2016 6:21 PM, "Charlie Nelson via CnC-List" wrote: > We use a carbon fiber pole on Water Phantom, C&C 36 XL/kcb, for our > kite(s) and have 'oscillated' back and forth between doing dip-pole jibes > or end-for-end. The pole is a relatively light Forte carbon fiber pole with > snap-in fitting on both ends. > > We always use lazy sheets and guys. > > As the driver, I don't have strong feelings about which method we use or > should use. > > However, especially in breezes above 8 knots, it looks to me like our > jibes are taking too much time when we end for end the pole. Of course I > share some of the blame if I can't keep the boat headed downwind during the > jibe but even when I seem to manage keeping her downwind, the mast man > struggles to get the pole into the fitting and made--taking valuable time > and giving a lot of downwind separation to our competitors. Of course, it > also puts him at risk for the pole smashing him about the head and > shoulders if the pressure builds on the kite before he has it made. > > I am convinced that my boat can sail to her rating upwind in breezes above > about 8 knots--less not so much!--but downwind we often waste what seems > like too much time on jibing. I say this with confidence since when we > raced non-spin with a whisker pole, until we learned how to set the pole > downwind, we would beat every boat to the windward mark and have most of > them pass us on the way downwind. Once we got the mechanics straightened > out, no one passed us downwind even if a few gained on us. > > OTOH, if we dip pole, the bow person often gets the new guy in the pole in > the incorrect position (with his back to the bow), so there is certainly a > need for more practice. > > My question for the list is what method should we invest practice time in > so that jibing can be as routine as tacking. It seems that at 36 ft Water > Phantom and a fiber pole could go either way but I would prefer to always > use the same method so that we have a chance to get quick at it. > > Charlie Nelson > Water Phantom > C&C 36 XL/kcb > > > cenel...@aol.com > > ___ > > This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you > wish to make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to: > https://www.paypal.me/stumurray > > All Contributions are greatly appreciated! > > ___ This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish to make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to: https://www.paypal.me/stumurray All Contributions are greatly appreciated!
Stus-List Spinnaker pole handling
We use a carbon fiber pole on Water Phantom, C&C 36 XL/kcb, for our kite(s) and have 'oscillated' back and forth between doing dip-pole jibes or end-for-end. The pole is a relatively light Forte carbon fiber pole with snap-in fitting on both ends. We always use lazy sheets and guys. As the driver, I don't have strong feelings about which method we use or should use. However, especially in breezes above 8 knots, it looks to me like our jibes are taking too much time when we end for end the pole. Of course I share some of the blame if I can't keep the boat headed downwind during the jibe but even when I seem to manage keeping her downwind, the mast man struggles to get the pole into the fitting and made--taking valuable time and giving a lot of downwind separation to our competitors. Of course, it also puts him at risk for the pole smashing him about the head and shoulders if the pressure builds on the kite before he has it made. I am convinced that my boat can sail to her rating upwind in breezes above about 8 knots--less not so much!--but downwind we often waste what seems like too much time on jibing. I say this with confidence since when we raced non-spin with a whisker pole, until we learned how to set the pole downwind, we would beat every boat to the windward mark and have most of them pass us on the way downwind. Once we got the mechanics straightened out, no one passed us downwind even if a few gained on us. OTOH, if we dip pole, the bow person often gets the new guy in the pole in the incorrect position (with his back to the bow), so there is certainly a need for more practice. My question for the list is what method should we invest practice time in so that jibing can be as routine as tacking. It seems that at 36 ft Water Phantom and a fiber pole could go either way but I would prefer to always use the same method so that we have a chance to get quick at it. Charlie Nelson Water Phantom C&C 36 XL/kcb cenel...@aol.com ___ This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish to make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to: https://www.paypal.me/stumurray All Contributions are greatly appreciated!
