Re: Where are the interface builder components?
OK, so you want one of these controls yourself? Well, let's imagine you're going to sit down and write one for your app. Are you honestly telling me that you expect to end up with highly reusable code that could be placed in a framework like Cocoa, and you'd be happy to ship to a large number of other developers? Or (and far more likely) that you'll have implemented only the bits of functionality your own app needs and left plenty of holes to fill? Please i'm not trying to offend anyone here, i was just questioning... but since you ask. I try my best to design my classes with the re-usability in mind, also to the best of my knowledge of the language at the time of design, mostly because I do not like to have to rewrite things, it's a waste of time, efforts and money... occasionally I will rewrite a class to improve it with new acquired knowledge and techniques yes, for instance when i learned that i could iterate thru a collection using a for loop instead of while loop coupled with an iterator, i did change most of my classes to reflect that ease of use. same thing for when I learned of properties and KVM coding. Additionally I always write my code with someone might need to use this kind of approach, it takes me a little more time but it's worth it in the end. If I was to provide quality development tools to my users, I would make sure my employees have that mindset when hacking together a class, yes, because the time spent un-mixing the mess afterwards to release proper components is just to costly. 1: it takes them away from the creative bench to think of new features 2: it doubles the initial effort therefor doubling the cost, in human hours. Unfortunately for me right now i do not believe I have proper and all the handles on cocoa to create my own controls, but i'm getting there My first controls will probably have holes and missing features, and might respond to specific needs, but then again i'm one guy with less than a year of experience with cocoa. Tho I try my best to measure up, I'm not Apple. This thread of emails want not intended to bash Apple for not doing their work, I just needed to understand why the components are not already available in the toolbox when it seemed logical to me that they should of been there with the release of the operating system along with all the new features so application developers could take full advantage of it. Thank you all for your feedback and explanations! As usual this community Rocks! Cheers. Sandro Noel. ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: Where are the interface builder components?
On 11/19/2009 5:45 PM, Sandro Noël sandro.n...@gestosoft.com wrote: This thread of emails want not intended to bash Apple for not doing their work, I just needed to understand why the components are not already available in the toolbox when it seemed logical to me that they should of been there with the release of the operating system along with all the new features so application developers could take full advantage of it. Apple's applications, frameworks, and operating system are typically developed by different people, and although some cutting edge stuff may be shared amongst all (typically when they can be assured such resources are going to be available amongst all those realms), some things just cannot due to a variety of reasons, so it's entirely possible that every application that uses HUD controls may have very disparate implementations. ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: Where are the interface builder components?
This is what i think from observing the applications apple released witch have controls that are not in the tools palette. * Must work with localized content That's already implemented in the controls used by apple in their application. * Must work with accessibility also already implemented in the controls used by apple in their application (for the most part). * For particular controls, probably need to have multiple sizes (large, small, mini) already implemented visibly in the controls used by apple in their application. * Probably will need to expose custom bindings Apparently iLife and most of the released applications with snow leopard are coded in cocoa, the finer for example is now a cocoa application, * Should work in resolution independence. That i'm not sure of, but considering that Binary God ( BGHUDAppKit) was able to do it properly i imagine the brains at apple can do as much, * Probably some other things I'm missing. Maybe i'm just talking out of my hat here, because i'm not in the secrets of the gods, but looking at what is in the applications already... I'll file a request. thank you for the advice! Sandro. On 2009-11-17, at 4:40 PM, Ricky Sharp wrote: On Nov 16, 2009, at 9:28 PM, Sandro Noël wrote: I guess i'll have to make my own. I just find it sad to have to duplicate work, it's unproductive. True, but keep in mind the amount of effort that Apple would need to do if they provided the custom control, etc: * Must work with localized content * Must work with accessibility * For particular controls, probably need to have multiple sizes (large, small, mini) * Probably will need to expose custom bindings * Should work in resolution independence. * Probably some other things I'm missing. Definitely file an enhancement request though. I'm sure Apple will strongly look into providing something if several developers end up asking for the same type of controls. ___ Ricky A. Sharp mailto:rsh...@instantinteractive.com Instant Interactive(tm) http://www.instantinteractive.com ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: Where are the interface builder components?
On 18 Nov 2009, at 19:04, Sandro Noël wrote: This is what i think from observing the applications apple released witch have controls that are not in the tools palette. * Must work with localized content That's already implemented in the controls used by apple in their application. Not necessarily. A surprising amount of Apple's custom controls use dozens of localized images instead of drawing text itself. * Must work with accessibility also already implemented in the controls used by apple in their application (for the most part). Great, it works for the original intended use – does it work re-usably for other people's apps? * For particular controls, probably need to have multiple sizes (large, small, mini) already implemented visibly in the controls used by apple in their application. Again, often just different images at present; not true rendering at different sizes * Probably will need to expose custom bindings Apparently iLife and most of the released applications with snow leopard are coded in cocoa, the finer for example is now a cocoa application, The Finder being Cocoa has nothing to do with it. Apple's engineers probably don't bother going to the trouble of exposing full bindings support for all their custom controls unless they really need to. In their applications, it's probably a mixture of target/action and hacking into place the odd binding that's needed. * Should work in resolution independence. That i'm not sure of, but considering that Binary God ( BGHUDAppKit) was able to do it properly i imagine the brains at apple can do as much, * Probably some other things I'm missing. IB plugin Maybe i'm just talking out of my hat here, because i'm not in the secrets of the gods, but looking at what is in the applications already... OK, so you want one of these controls yourself? Well, let's imagine you're going to sit down and write one for your app. Are you honestly telling me that you expect to end up with highly reusable code that could be placed in a framework like Cocoa, and you'd be happy to ship to a large number of other developers? Or (and far more likely) that you'll have implemented only the bits of functionality your own app needs and left plenty of holes to fill? ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: Where are the interface builder components?
On Nov 16, 2009, at 9:28 PM, Sandro Noël wrote: I guess i'll have to make my own. I just find it sad to have to duplicate work, it's unproductive. True, but keep in mind the amount of effort that Apple would need to do if they provided the custom control, etc: * Must work with localized content * Must work with accessibility * For particular controls, probably need to have multiple sizes (large, small, mini) * Probably will need to expose custom bindings * Should work in resolution independence. * Probably some other things I'm missing. Definitely file an enhancement request though. I'm sure Apple will strongly look into providing something if several developers end up asking for the same type of controls. ___ Ricky A. Sharp mailto:rsh...@instantinteractive.com Instant Interactive(tm) http://www.instantinteractive.com ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: Where are the interface builder components?
Sandro Noël wrote: Greetings. I'm kind of annoyed with the 1867 A.D. controls that are in interface builder. Every time i want to do something visually cool, I can see the lines of code piling up If you want to do something cool you have to ditch IB and actually start writing code, that's just the way it is. -- alfonso e. urdaneta red82.com - are you ready? ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: Where are the interface builder components?
On Mon, Nov 16, 2009 at 1:13 AM, Alfonso Urdaneta alfo...@red82.com wrote: If you want to do something cool you have to ditch IB and actually start writing code, that's just the way it is. This is not true. While you can't really build a new user interface control using Interface Builder, you can assemble them just fine in IB. There is no reason to ditch IB just because you want to use a nice custom widget. --Kyle Sluder ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: Where are the interface builder components?
Kyle Sluder wrote: On Mon, Nov 16, 2009 at 1:13 AM, Alfonso Urdaneta alfo...@red82.com wrote: If you want to do something cool you have to ditch IB and actually start writing code, that's just the way it is. This is not true. While you can't really build a new user interface control using Interface Builder, you can assemble them just fine in IB. There is no reason to ditch IB just because you want to use a nice custom widget. Fair enough. All I was trying to say is that you can't expect extraordinary results (an awesome and unique UI) by doing the ordinary (using IB straight up), and that there is no reason for a programmer to fear writing code. -- alfonso e. urdaneta red82.com - are you ready? ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: Where are the interface builder components?
But where are the ones from apple... that's what i'm wondering, Why do we have to duplicate work that evidently has already been done. I'm confused as why apple is not including it in it's development tools. it makes no sense to me... Because it takes longer to release new UI widgets as general-purpose tools than it does to create them in isolation in a single app? Because it takes more work to create a widget + an IB plug-in that it does to code up the widget in an app? New plug-ins *have* been added to IB some time after widgets show up in Apple apps (toolbars come to mind), but Apple can't do everything at once and they're certainly not going to hold up shipping new features in iWhatever just because you'll want the IB plug-in at the same time. Any particular widget you have a need for, file an enhancement request... -- Scott Ribe scott_r...@killerbytes.com http://www.killerbytes.com/ (303) 722-0567 voice ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: Where are the interface builder components?
Thank you all for your feedback! I guess i'll have to make my own. I just find it sad to have to duplicate work, it's unproductive. cheers! Sandro Noel. On 2009-11-16, at 11:53 AM, Scott Ribe wrote: But where are the ones from apple... that's what i'm wondering, Why do we have to duplicate work that evidently has already been done. I'm confused as why apple is not including it in it's development tools. it makes no sense to me... Because it takes longer to release new UI widgets as general-purpose tools than it does to create them in isolation in a single app? Because it takes more work to create a widget + an IB plug-in that it does to code up the widget in an app? New plug-ins *have* been added to IB some time after widgets show up in Apple apps (toolbars come to mind), but Apple can't do everything at once and they're certainly not going to hold up shipping new features in iWhatever just because you'll want the IB plug-in at the same time. Any particular widget you have a need for, file an enhancement request... -- Scott Ribe scott_r...@killerbytes.com http://www.killerbytes.com/ (303) 722-0567 voice ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: Where are the interface builder components?
On Nov 14, 2009, at 8:40 PM, Dave DeLong wrote: There are a bunch of freely available frameworks that have UI elements like that, such as BWToolkit, BGHudAppKit, AmberFramework, iLife Controls, HMBlkAppKit, and more. Here's a decent list: http://cocoaheads.byu.edu/resources/user-interface hi- Cool! Whoever did the web layout for that site is a genius! Here is another IB plugin: http://www.vvidget.org/code/description You can read a plug about it at: http://www.vvi.com/news/2009/1112vvidget.html thanks!- -lance ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: Where are the interface builder components?
From: Sandro Noël sandro.n...@gestosoft.com But where are the ones from apple... that's what i'm wondering, Why do we have to duplicate work that evidently has already been done. I'm confused as why apple is not including it in it's development tools. it makes no sense to me... If Apple published the sources of its widgets, Microsoft would have it much easier to copy it... Otherwise, if the question is why there's no market for reusable object component, (which was promised by early OO proponents), perhaps it is because the OO model is flawed? Or, I would rather thing that the _granularity_ of the OO model is the problem: reusing components at the level of an object is too inconvenient; reusing components at the tool level (like in unix) seems to be much more successful. -- __Pascal Bourguignon__ ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: Where are the interface builder components?
On 15/11/2009, at 7:04 PM, Pascal Bourguignon wrote: Otherwise, if the question is why there's no market for reusable object component, (which was promised by early OO proponents), perhaps it is because the OO model is flawed? Or, I would rather thing that the _granularity_ of the OO model is the problem: reusing components at the level of an object is too inconvenient; The hundreds if not thousands of reusable classes, collections and frameworks out there says otherwise. --Graham ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: Where are the interface builder components?
On Sun, Nov 15, 2009 at 12:04 AM, Pascal Bourguignon p...@informatimago.com wrote: Otherwise, if the question is why there's no market for reusable object component, (which was promised by early OO proponents), perhaps it is because the OO model is flawed? Or, I would rather thing that the _granularity_ of the OO model is the problem: reusing components at the level of an object is too inconvenient; reusing components at the tool level (like in unix) seems to be much more successful. Without getting into an OO flamewar, we're talking about Apple distributing new widgets as part of an IB plugin, not just as individual objects. Look at the text system for an example of an OO system which can't be reused in its individual pieces, but is very powerful when taken as a unit whose individual components can be enhanced. --Kyle Sluder ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Where are the interface builder components?
Greetings. I'm kind of annoyed with the 1867 A.D. controls that are in interface builder. Every time i want to do something visually cool, I can see the lines of code piling up I'm wondering where all the good stuff is, (interface builder components) Evidently Apple has some cool components in their library, for example the Hud controls. The safari tabs, toolbar controls with multiple view's Where can I get my hands on that? Is it part of the ADC Membership? Do I have to learn to code these wonders by hand? Am I missing something fundamental? Something I should read up to get satisfaction in my creative adventures? Thank you for any pointers. Sandro Noël ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: Where are the interface builder components?
There are a bunch of freely available frameworks that have UI elements like that, such as BWToolkit, BGHudAppKit, AmberFramework, iLife Controls, HMBlkAppKit, and more. Here's a decent list: http://cocoaheads.byu.edu/resources/user-interface Cheers, Dave On Nov 14, 2009, at 6:35 PM, Sandro Noël wrote: Greetings. I'm kind of annoyed with the 1867 A.D. controls that are in interface builder. Every time i want to do something visually cool, I can see the lines of code piling up I'm wondering where all the good stuff is, (interface builder components) Evidently Apple has some cool components in their library, for example the Hud controls. The safari tabs, toolbar controls with multiple view's Where can I get my hands on that? Is it part of the ADC Membership? Do I have to learn to code these wonders by hand? Am I missing something fundamental? Something I should read up to get satisfaction in my creative adventures? Thank you for any pointers. Sandro Noël smime.p7s Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: Where are the interface builder components?
Dave Wow, cool Link, thank you! very appreciated! But where are the ones from apple... that's what i'm wondering, Why do we have to duplicate work that evidently has already been done. I'm confused as why apple is not including it in it's development tools. it makes no sense to me... Sandro Noel. On 2009-11-14, at 8:40 PM, Dave DeLong wrote: There are a bunch of freely available frameworks that have UI elements like that, such as BWToolkit, BGHudAppKit, AmberFramework, iLife Controls, HMBlkAppKit, and more. Here's a decent list: http://cocoaheads.byu.edu/resources/user-interface Cheers, Dave On Nov 14, 2009, at 6:35 PM, Sandro Noël wrote: Greetings. I'm kind of annoyed with the 1867 A.D. controls that are in interface builder. Every time i want to do something visually cool, I can see the lines of code piling up I'm wondering where all the good stuff is, (interface builder components) Evidently Apple has some cool components in their library, for example the Hud controls. The safari tabs, toolbar controls with multiple view's Where can I get my hands on that? Is it part of the ADC Membership? Do I have to learn to code these wonders by hand? Am I missing something fundamental? Something I should read up to get satisfaction in my creative adventures? Thank you for any pointers. Sandro Noël ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/sandro.noel%40gestosoft.com This email sent to sandro.n...@gestosoft.com ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: Where are the interface builder components?
On 15/11/2009, at 11:48 AM, Sandro Noël wrote: But where are the ones from apple... that's what i'm wondering, Why do we have to duplicate work that evidently has already been done. I'm confused as why apple is not including it in it's development tools. it makes no sense to me... There's nothing you can do except file a bug report. -- Rob Keniger ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
