Re: Serious Encoding Problems (Umlaute)

[Niclas Hedhman]

On Saturday 07 June 2003 03:17 am, Alexander Schatten wrote:
> Joerg Heinicke wrote:
> > Alexander Schatten wrote:
> >> (1) UTF-8 practically only works for english texts, and does not work
> >> with ae oe ue and so on
> >
> > That's wrong. UTF-8 works for *every* character. You only must use it
> > correctly - and that's not so easy :-)
> > By default giving a browser an UTF-8 document, it will send forms
> > encoded in UTF-8 too, but Cocoon expects ISO-8859-1. You can change
> > his by setting the form encoding correctly.
>
> Well, I have mentioned it, I am definitily no encoding expert, but my
> practical know-how shows me with different tools(!) not only with
> cocoon, that UTF-8 does in praxis not work with, e.g., german umlauts.
> ISO-8859-1 does. Thats fact. Maybe, there are problems in
> implementations, I don't know, but this is what I experienced.

Could it possibly be your encoding understanding that is a bit flawed?

Unicode numbers are fixed in stone, and Java uses it internally for all String 
and Character. However, there is ALWAYS a Unicode to Encoding performed when 
outputting the characters to some other data medium. It is per definition 
necessary.

ISO-8859-1 has a set of characters defined, and all other characters are 
encoded into "numeric text". I believe all encoding standards have a method 
of representing characters that are not part of the "encoding scope", such as 
chinese characters in ISO-8859-1.

Now, to make matters worse, at least even more confusing, is that the 
characters is eventually displayed or printed to a human, in which case there 
must be a graphical representation available for the character in question, 
also called a font.

Sad to say, today few tools and few fonts supports all character encodings.

I believe that in this jungle of confusion, you have misunderstood how to use 
character encodings. It is easy to do, done it myself many times.

For instance, MySQL requires to be setup to support UTF encodings, doesn't do 
that by default, and the JDBC driver must specify that it will use UTF in the 
connect string. You forget that, and everything seems like it doesn't work at 
all.

I suggest that you slowly go through each part of your system, and verifies 
the use of character encoding. There should be no problem mixing them, e.g. 
having ISO-8859-1 documents which are easier to type, and serve UTF-8 to the 
web browsers.

Niclas


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Re: An IDIOT on WiKi!

[Niclas Hedhman]

On Thursday 29 May 2003 08:34 pm, Antonio Gallardo wrote:
> When I started to use wiki. I loved that was freely editable, but after
> that I think we must find a mechanism to control contribution. I mean this
> kind of nonsense contributions that only destroy the builded work.

Control is the last thing you want, that kills the spirit.
Recommendations,

* Subscription to cocoon-users, as it is fairly simple to subscribe.

* Mailing list where all changes are notified, so that "moderators" can ensure 
reasonable modifications.

* Easy-to-use rollback for the moderators, not for everyone!


Niclas

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Re: Using my own Logging-Class in Cocoon

[Niclas Hedhman]

On Tuesday 18 March 2003 20:53, Uwe Gerger wrote:
> Hello,
> i would like to use an own written Logging-class to catch all logs from
> Coccon and log them as we need.
>
> What I have to do for configuring Cocoon in that way and what interface
> I have to implement?

Cocoon is using LogKit, and LogKit allows for custom logging system. Look at 
http://avalon.apache.org/logkit

Niclas

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Re: svg2jpeg output not equal on different machines

[Niclas Hedhman]

On Tuesday 18 March 2003 16:59, Christian Hoofe wrote:
> I'm using the svg2jpeg Serializer to generate menu entries.
>
> The svg text tag looks like this
>
>  weight="normal" fill="blue" x="14" y="15">

Probably because you don't have "Arial Narrow" installed on the Linux machine 
(welcome to font-hell, as in Hellvetica ;o) ), so X will substitute according 
to a ruleset (which you can specify), and often doesn't do a good job.
And even if you have Arial Narrow, you still won't get exactly the same 
result.

In this context, I would like to mention that specify font size in 'points' 
(pt) is a bit odd, as the server hardly knows what kind of display its output 
is going to... Fontsize in pixel would be more appropriate.

In your case, how does X vs Windows derive how many points/pixel? I don't 
know, but I think the answer could be related to your problems.

Niclas

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Re: [heads-up] wiki abuse: your advice please

[Niclas Hedhman]

On Saturday 15 March 2003 16:48, SAXESS - Hussayn Dabbous wrote:
> what about simply reusing the userlist from the cocoon-dev, cocoon-user,
> cocoon-doc mailing lists and allow write access only to these
> registered users ?
>
> That should make life easy...
> I think, authors, who are NOT members of one of the mailinglists,
> cant be serious authors, because there is no feedback chain ...
>
> as a small benefit we even could associate the emailadress to all
> the wikiauthors, who have NO wiki name ;-)

Small problem, you don't have any credentials associated with your 
subscription. Need to tie in a password with your subscription, or I can 
misuse it by pretending to be someone else.

But in principal, I agree. 

Niclas

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Re: wml generator ?

[Niclas Hedhman]

On Friday 14 March 2003 20:07, zze-MORY Nicolas FTRD/DMI/REN wrote:
> my source is for example http://www.toto.fr/cinema/titi.wml with pictures
> .wbmp
>
> and i have understand that WML is an xml application and with a good xsl i
> can generate a xhtml file. But i can't get the .wbmp any idea ?

You wrote WML -> XML ;o)

search www.wapforum.org and www.wapforum.com. Sure the answer is in the WAP 
Developer area.



> -Original Message-----
> From: Niclas Hedhman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: vendredi 14 mars 2003 12:00
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: wml generator ?
>
> On Friday 14 March 2003 18:16, Antonio Gallardo wrote:
> > I already checked some mail from http://w3c.org. it seems like we need to
> > find a converter from WML -> XML.
>
> WML is an XML application !!! Just like XHTML is an XML application.
>
> i.e. If you have it in print I can use a Xerox to convert from WML to XML,
> it already is...
>
> What do you mean by a WML generator??
> What is the "source", files, URLs or attachments in mail messages?
>
> Anybody see the light???
>
> Niclas
>
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Re: HostSelector

[Niclas Hedhman]

I believe that there is something wrong in your Tomcat setup.

I have exactly the same Sitemap fragments, but using VirtualHost in Apache WS, 
and passing through Tomcat without change to the default configuration.

And that setup works well.



On Friday 14 March 2003 23:09, Kevin McDermott wrote:
> I'm running Cocoon 2.0.4 on IBMJDK 1.3.1.
>
> I've got Apache NameVirtualHosting, onto Tomcat 4.1.18, which is mapped to
> the same Cocoon instance.
>
> My sitemap.xmap has been stripped down and I've entered the following host
> setup
>
> src="org.apache.cocoon.selection.HostSelector"/>  value="poc1.mydomain.com"/>
> 
>   
>
> In my Main Pipeline, I've got
>
> 
> 
>  src="content/poc1.mydomain.com/sitemap.xmap" /> 
> 
>  src="content/poc2.mydomain.com/sitemap.xmap" /> 
> 
>
> But, nothing seems to be matching the hosts correctly...
>
> Apache's NameVHosting fine, Tomcat's passing it on (I've tested content in
> the root of a context), but...I get this error in my Cocoon logs...
>
> WARN(2003-03-14) 14:58.10:198   [sitemap.selector.host]
> (/content/kevin.html) Ajp13Processor[8009][4]/NamedPatternsSelector: No
> configuration for expression 'poc1' -- failing. WARN(2003-03-14)
> 14:58.10:200   [sitemap.selector.host] (/content/kevin.html)
> Ajp13Processor[8009][4]/NamedPatternsSelector: No configuration for
> expression 'poc2' -- failing.
>
> I guess I've got my HostSelector configured wrongly, but, I'm following
> this  advice and
> getting nowhere...
>
> Any suggestions?
>
> Thanks
>
> Kevin McDermott
>
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Re: [heads-up] wiki abuse: your advice please

[Niclas Hedhman]

On Friday 14 March 2003 21:46, Steven Noels wrote:
> Your thoughts, please: what kind of policy would you come up with, or
> are willing to live up to?

IP address blocking is no good. A lot of people have dynamic IPs (either by 
dial-up or ADSL).

I favour a simple self-registration, with email address as user name (so that 
the community can bombard the intruder with hate mail - just kidding).

Niclas

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Re: wml generator ?

[Niclas Hedhman]

On Friday 14 March 2003 18:16, Antonio Gallardo wrote:
> I already checked some mail from http://w3c.org. it seems like we need to
> find a converter from WML -> XML.

WML is an XML application !!! Just like XHTML is an XML application.

i.e. If you have it in print I can use a Xerox to convert from WML to XML, it 
already is...

What do you mean by a WML generator?? 
What is the "source", files, URLs or attachments in mail messages?

Anybody see the light???

Niclas

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Re: Images - Lets get this straight

[Niclas Hedhman]

On Tuesday 11 March 2003 22:56, Richard Cunliffe wrote:

Richard,

IMHO, you have a whole set of problems, and inadequate analysis behind each. 
And the only way to sort things out is a systematic check from top to bottom.

If we start at the Apache Webserver httpd.conf.

> In the Apache httpd file the only code I have added is:
>
> -
> JkMount /examples ajp13
> JkMount /examples/* ajp13
>
> JkMount /jk ajp13
> JkMount /jk/* ajp13
>
> JkMount /cocoon ajp13
> JkMount /cocoon/* ajp13
> -

The /cocoon/ mounting will connect the Web server with Tomcat, and in the 
process /cocoon/ is stripped, and the rest is passed to Tomcat.

If you have not changed the default config of Tomcat, then Tomcat will have 
the cocoon app mounted at its /cocoon/ URL, i.e. you will need;
http://www.cunliffe.net/cocoon/cocoon/soundpool/ to reach the directory

-- o --

The changing of image, as I suggested, shows that you are not getting what you 
are seeing, i.e. the browser is caching images. My suggestion was to actually 
change the image, without changing the name, and you would see the still "old 
image".

-- o --

It is now time for you to decide what you want to do.
Do you want to use Apache Webserver as the front end? (Recommended)
Do you want Apache WS, Tomcat or Cocoon to serve the static content (WS 
recommended)?
How do you want your URL space divided?

It is then a matter of systematic configuration, from top to bottom, with 
verification of each step.

I have a pretty straight forward setup. Apache WS is the frontend, Tomcat is 
acting as a Cocoon-only container, mounted at /site/.

In httpd.conf;
JkMount /site/* worker1
JkWorkersFile /home/tomcat/conf/workers.properties
JkOptions +ForwardKeySize +ForwardURICompat -ForwardDirectories

In /home/tomcat/conf/workers.properties

worker.list=worker1
worker.worker1.type=ajp13
worker.worker1.host=localhost
worker.worker1.port=8009
worker.worker1.lbfactor=50
worker.worker1.cachesize=10
worker.worker1.cache_timeout=600
worker.worker1.socket_keepalive=1
worker.worker1.socket_timeout=300

Now (after restart?), make sure that you get the Tomcat greeting page when 
accessing the /site/ URL, making sure that ApacheWS -> Tomcat works.


In Tomcat's server.xml I changed the ROOT context under



And in /home/cocoon/site/ there is the cocoon sitemap, and so on.


I hope this should get you on the right track.

Niclas

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Re: problems with images

[Niclas Hedhman]

On Tuesday 11 March 2003 17:12, Richard Cunliffe wrote:
> Niclas and Charles,
>
> I would prefer to get images working within cocoon, so that when I want
> to do more advance things I don't need to worry about it.
>
> I have done all that Charles has suggest and still only the backdrop
> works, any other suggestions?

It is very weird that the 


would work and 



does not. 
First of all you must ensure that the files are the files you think they are, 
not cached and so on. Replace the background.gif with a different image, and 
see if that change happens (often it doesn't).

Do you have this site public? I could take a quick look.


Niclas



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Re: questions regarding v2.1

[Niclas Hedhman]

On Tuesday 11 March 2003 02:03, Jonathan Spaeth wrote:
> I have been developing a webapp with cocoon 2 for at least three months
> now. After building the latest system (as checked out from the repository
> cocoon-2.1), xmlform does not appear to be mentioned in the sitemap, but
> the java classes have all been built.  Is this intentional?

The build system for 2.1 is in a transition and there might be things missing. 
I think you should monitor the progress on cocoon-dev instead.

Niclas

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Re: Flowscript

[Niclas Hedhman]

On Monday 10 March 2003 23:35, Luca Marchetti wrote:
> Hi all.
>   I'm tryng to get flowscript work
>  When I try to use flowscript, as in the flow/calc demo of cocoon2.1 i
> get this error:
>
> ReferenceError: "Continuation" is not defined.

Flow is still in progress, and there are issues with it, for instance 
documentation needs improvements and a debate of polishing it up has been 
started.
I suggest that you bring this up on Cocoon-dev instead. I think the developers 
like to have some more user involvement in Flow, as it will become a very 
integral part of Cocoon.

Niclas

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Re: Cocoon and SVG graphics under SuSe Linux

[Niclas Hedhman]

On Monday 10 March 2003 21:20, Martin Holz wrote:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> > I'm running Cocoon's SVG sample (under static-content, SVG
> > introduction page) under SuSe Linux 8.1. All works fine except for
> > the graphics. They don't show up, but generate loads of errors in
> > WEB-INF/logs instead.

> Are the pngs created at all? One common problem was, that
> die SVG serializer needs access to the X11 DISPLAY for some
> versions of AWT. I think it's not a problem for JDK 1.4.1.
>
> Something like
>
> /usr/X11R6/bin/Xvfb :1 -screen 0 800x600x8 &
> export DISPLAY=:1
>
> in your catalina.sh  should help.

One more thing; make sure you have the XFree86-Xvfb module (Does Suse use 
RPMs?) installed.

And as Martin mentioned, I also heard that under 1.4.1 it is no longer 
required to have X running. But _I_ have not tested that yet - IIABDFI (If it 
ain't broke, don't fix it).

Niclas

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Re: 2 (should be) easy questions

[Niclas Hedhman]

It doesn't seems that you are trying to generate dynamic "on-the-fly" images, 
but static ones...

If all you want are image links pointing to something the that browser can 
load, then (if you intend to run a professional setup) I would recommend you 
that the images are outside the Cocoon scope.

That means, 

is inserted into the produced HTML document, and that Apache webserver 
(preferably) serves the "/images" resource directly, by default, it would be 
$DOCUMENT_ROOT/images, but an Alias can change it to whereever (remember you 
need a  declaration if outside the DocumentRoot context).

If you are not use Apache webserver, place the images in 
/tomcat/webapps/ROOT/images, and use the URL above, and it should work.

No need to involve Cocoon in this.

Niclas

On Tuesday 11 March 2003 01:48, Richard Cunliffe wrote:
> Hi,
>
>
>
> I have two questions:
>
>
>
> 1.  I'm not sure if this cocoon or my inability to do
> XSL, but I have my web page images in an images folder, under the root
> directory soundpool. Everything was looking good until I checked the
> site in netscape, when I found the images were not loading. I
> consequently checked on other on other computers, and they were not
> working there either. Do I need to included something in my sitemap to
> tell cocoon where the images are. If this is not the case, could someone
> please tell me how to get them to work. The rest of my XML is being
> parsed correctly. Below is an example in my style sheet referencing an
> image:
>
>
>
> -
> This is what XML Spy produced in its XSLT designer, I have also tried
>
>
>
> - this also doesn't work
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> 2.  My next question is a DTD question
>
>
>
> I have SQL statements in my XML code to query a MySQL database, and I
> now want to display the results, but how do I define this SQL query in
> my DTD?? I have attached a XML file.
>
>
>
>
>
> Richard.


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Re: Experiences with Cocoon & Microsoft SQLServer?

[Niclas Hedhman]

On Saturday 15 February 2003 03:22, Thorsten Scherler wrote:
> Don't use the MS SQL stuff (my personal opinion) it's garbage!

Or use an old enough version, where most the code are from the Sybase codebase 
(was it ver 3?). MS SQL is another good example where "we take this perfect 
product and add a nice UI", turning into "oops, why is there a problem?"

Niclas

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Re: Scheduler with cocoon

[Niclas Hedhman]

On Friday 14 February 2003 05:17, Guenther Schmidt wrote:
> provided you're using Linix, you might want to create a cron job a'la wget
> http://url that triggers your pipeline.

If you are not Linux expert, but using it more casually, the above can seem a 
bit cryptic.

cron is a time scheduler in Linux, which executes shell scripts according to 
settings in a table. Most Linux Distros has a default cron configuration that 
is pretty is to use. For RedHat, create a sheel script and place it in 
/etc/cron.daily, and it will execute once a day (think it is in the middle of 
night).

The script should look like this;

#!/bin/sh
#

wget http://www.mydomain.com/cocoon/theResource

and I think you need to set the "x" flag on the script file, such as;

chmod +x mydailyrequest.sh


That should be crystal clear.

> This is just a fallback possibility if nobody comes up with a better
> answer.

I think this is a perfect solution, as cron is extremely reliable.

> Guenther (turning 35 in 2.5 hours)

Niclas , turned 35 29680 hours ago ;o)   New yardstick for age?

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Re: ideal hardware for cocoon?

[Niclas Hedhman]

As Peter hints, there is no limit on how much you can spend on your ideal 
production environment.

50,000 CaffeinMark Java CPU (byte codes in silicon) with XML parsing hardware 
accelerator (similar to a NVidia chip) would be a good start. Then make that 
into an array of 1, each with a Gig of memory, and you are in a good 
position...

Price tag for the above; Give me 12-18 months and $10-15million, and I'll make 
it happen.  ;o)

Niclas

On Wednesday 12 February 2003 23:02, caleb racey wrote:
> Hi folks
>
> We are going to be setting up a dedicated cocoon server soon and I am
> trying to spec out the hardware. The operating system will be redhat (8
> probably) and tomcat will be the servlet engine.
>
> Does anyone have any experiences of what hardware balance is right for
> cocoon? I know this is stupid question with no concrete answer as it
> depends on what the server will be doing, loading, etc. etc. etc.
>
> Having said all this what balance would you go for when buying a cocoon
> server? Would you go for single processor (2.6ghz) machine with lots of
> memory (4-6gig) or a dual processor machine (2 x 2.6ghz) with less
> memory (2gig).
>
> My searching of the cocoon, tomcat, and FOP lists hasn't really given me
> any good feel for optimum hardware configuration. I'm hoping someone has
> some experience.
>
> The cocoon server is mainly going to be serving FOP based
> transformations, xml (xhtml) to PDF and xml to svg to png.  As much
> static content as possible will be served from a dedicated apache http
> server so this machine will only be doing dynamic xml transformations.
> Some of these might get quite large, our present record is xhmtl to 206
> pages of pdf.
>
> Again I appreciate that optimum hardware should be reached by careful
> study of what us it is going to be put to, but we are just starting out
> seriously on the cocoon route so don't have the experience to know
> exactly how it will be used.
>
>
> Caleb Racey
> Webteam
> University Computer Service
> University of Newcastle
> tel 0191 222 5916
>
>
>
>
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Re: Fault tolerance...

[Niclas Hedhman]

Many users has opinions about the Fault handling in Cocoon, and most, users 
and developers alike, agree it is not very good.

I suggest that you bring it up for discussion on cocoon-dev instead, as many 
developers don't monitor this list.

BTW, it would be great to have a "most wanted" list from the users, for the 
developers to seek inspiration from. Note; Too much flexibility (Flexibility 
Syndrome = It can be done, therefor do it) is not appreciated, and will be 
rejected.

Niclas

On Thursday 13 February 2003 00:04, Ben Young wrote:
> In my current work with the aggregation option in Cocoon 2.0.4 it seems
> that the aggregation options are not very fault tolerant. If one of the
> map:part's of my map:aggregate section points to a file that does not
> exist, all map:part's after that one do not get returned even if their
> files exist.
>
> With a cinclude transformer the error is a bit worse. If the file requested
> does not exist in the pipeline, I get a NullPointerException from line 180
> in the CIncludeTransformer.java. That line contains the source.recycle()
> call. Since the source is never created, there is nothing to recycle. Hence
> the error. 
>
> Would it be possible to make the map:aggregate continue on it's merry way
> even if one of the map:part's doesn't resolve to anything?
>
> Would it also be possible to add some fault tolerance to the
> CincludeTransformer? It seems to that the cinclude's done using the
> cocoon:// protocol don't follow any map:redirect-to's. That's probably
> somewhat unrelated, but worth mentioning I guess. 8o)
>
> Thank you for your thoughts and time,
> Ben
>
>
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Re: Requirements for Hosting

[Niclas Hedhman]

On Tuesday 11 February 2003 22:45, Guenther Schmidt wrote:
> Hi everyone,
>
> I've been doing all my projects in PHP so far and I'm sick and tired of it.

Good for you.

> I'm just beginning to touch base with Cocoon and am deeply impressed with
> it already.
> However I've got no Java know how so I don't know if it is enough to find a
> hosting service that merely provides a Java Servlet engine (like Tomcat)
> and install Cocoon yourself or if you need Cocoon preinstalled.

On Cocoon website you find;
http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/link/hosting.html

There has been reports that it is not reliable to assume that your Servlet 
hosting will accept the cocoon.war, and that you may spend money for 
something you can't use.

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Re: Cocoon hosting

[Niclas Hedhman]

On Wednesday 12 February 2003 11:10, Alex Romayev wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I'm looking for a cheap hosting provider to host a low
> volume Cocoon site based on 2.1 dev code.  Does anyone
> have any experience with the ones mentioned at the
> cocoon hosting page or any others?

How low is "low volume"??

I could consider making my server available, provided;
1. You help me setting it up, upgrade and maintain, so we both can benefit.
2. I have a simple Apache 1.3 up front with virtual hosts, and that we tie 
your domain, and my private domain, to the servlet container, not interfering 
with other domains.
3. "Low volume".
4. Credible content.
5. SLA non-existent; If I need to move servers, there will be downtime. My ISP 
is unreliable, and long interruptions happen, and I may decide to kick you 
out with a couple of weeks warning.

Tough? Yeah, but you get what you are paying for, and the tone was kind of 
"want to try some stuff", "privateering" and "cheap". Price; I won't bother 
charging.

Niclas

> Since I'm using 2.1 dev version, I assume it is better
> if they are not running Cocoon, since it might
> conflict with mine, is this a good assumption?
>
> 
> I've just tried deploying a my cocoon.war file at
> lunarpages.com, which twice brought their Resin server
> down (same file deploys fine on Tomcat by the way),
> which in turn resulted in me being kick out of their
> server...
> 
>
> Thanks,
> -Alex
>
> -
> Please check that your question  has not already been answered in the
> FAQ before posting. 
>
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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Re: A note about the "best(?) (cocoon-) development environment" ...

[Niclas Hedhman]

On Sunday 09 February 2003 05:59, Robert Simmons wrote:
> Sun JDO JSR-12.

And I thought this is a Java specific specification of the ODMG model. No?


> - Original Message -
> From: "Thor Heinrichs-Wolpert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Saturday, February 08, 2003 10:22 PM
> Subject: Re: A note about the "best(?) (cocoon-) development environment"
> ...
>
>
> Which JDO?  The ODMG JDO (like what Castor uses) or the after class
> generation muck about that is in the Sun JDO?
>
> Jetty has been using JMX long before Tomcat, it fully supports the spec
> ... and I'm thinking it supports it before the reference implementation
> does (like the classpath stuff).  Is it superior, I can't say for sure
> (but it is the default / preferred servlet engine in JBoss.  I like it
> because it takes me less screwing around with jar clashes between
> applications and what the server itself uses (making me less dependent
> on their support cycle and changes in where the JDK wants things).
>
> Cheers,
> Thor HW
>
> On Saturday, February 8, 2003, at 01:05  PM, Robert Simmons wrote:
> > I use JBoss but not jetty. Are you saying the Jetty-JBoss combo is
> > superior
> > to the Tomcat-JBoss combo? If so, I will definitely go try it. Perhaps
> > it
> > will fix my classpath in XSP issue. Bugzilla Reference:
> > http://nagoya.apache.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=16580.
> >
> > Kodo JDO is an implementation of the JDO specification and MORE. It
> > basically
> > rules. Go through the tutorials and you will love it. Create an object
> > model
> > using your favorite problem domain. Then create the JDO mapping file
> > (raw XML
> > or with IDE plug-in) and then just say "uhh, make a schema for me" and
> > it
> > just does it. Its amazing! No more screwing around with persistence and
> > schema manipulation.
> >
> > I have the commercial version of that product and will be talking
> > about using
> > it in the book that I am writing.
> >
> > -- Robert
> >
> >
> >
> > - Original Message -
> > From: "Thor Heinrichs-Wolpert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Saturday, February 08, 2003 9:47 PM
> > Subject: Re: A note about the "best(?) (cocoon-) development
> > environment" ...
> >
> >
> > Robert:
> >
> > Have a look at Jetty, or JBoss/Jetty (aka JBossWeb).  No nasty "must
> > copy things to endorsed directories, etc.)".  You take Cocoon (2.0/2.1)
> > and drop it in your deploy directory and POOF it's there.  It's nice
> > when the servlet engine actually uses the libs you define and not its
> > own first as the default ... isn't that in the spec ... and will be
> > available in Tomcat at some point.
> >
> > If you want any extra libs in cocoon-2.1 you add them in the lib tree,
> > add them to jars.xml and the cocoon build adds them to the Manifest ...
> > Jetty/Jboss just eats 'em up in the right place.
> >
> > I'm off to look for Kudo JDO (which hopefully follows the ODMG JDO and
> > not Sun's) ... how does this rank against Castor or Jakarta-OJB ?
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Thor HW
> >
> > On Saturday, February 8, 2003, at 11:42  AM, Robert Simmons wrote:
> >>> Hy, all;
> >>>
> >>> During the last months of activities i learned a lot from this
> >>> mailing
> >>> list. while i followed the discussions i started getting my
> >>> development
> >>> environment a bit up to date.  I plan to setup a Wiki page on this
> >>> theme. Although this may be a bit off topic, it still would be great,
> >>> if someone could comment on this issue.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> the tools collection
> >>> 
> >>> Here is what i have put together so far. Of course this is driven
> >>> at least partially by what i do for my customers...
> >>>
> >>> free tools:
> >>> 1.) OS: linux and solaris (maybe a mater of taste)
> >>
> >> Go linux. Instead of spending money on licenses, you spend money on
> >> support
> >> contracts. Cheaper. In addition, Solaris is primitive compared to
> >> Linux.
> >>
> >>> 2.) apache 1.3.26 (mod_jk2, mod_SSL)
> >>
> >> Duh ;)
> >>
> >>> 3.) tomcat 4.1.18
> >>
> >> Yes, but you can go one step further. Get JBoss with integrated
> >> tomcat. JBoss
> >> will handle all sorty of nasty things like deploying to clusters for
> >> you. As
> >> a bonus, you get the ability to integrate with EJB based programs.
> >>
> >>> 4.) cocoon-2.0.4
> >>
> >> 2.1 Hopefully soon!
> >>
> >>> 5.) eclipse
> >>
> >> See my previous message about eclopse vs netbeans.
> >>
> >>> 6.) sunbow eclipse tools (xml/sitemap)
> >>
> >> URL ?
> >>
> >>> 7.) ant
> >>
> >> I have 15 million of them in my damn appartment, want a few? Oh ...
> >> you mean
> >> Jakarta ant? Ok, nevermind then. =) Im currently looking at Krysalis'
> >> extensions to ant. http://www.krysalis.org/centipede/quickstart.html
> >>
> >>> 8.) java-1.3.1 (sun JDK on all platforms)
> >>
> >> No no .. 1.4.1!! In 1.4 there are so many COOOL things that I
> >> couldnt
> >> live without anymore.
> >>
> >>> 9.) Secureway LDAP Server (i'll s

Re: AW: Added a beginners page on basic cocoonapp organisation

[Niclas Hedhman]

On Wednesday 05 February 2003 17:48, Jan Harms wrote:
> Hi Hussayn,
>
> nice work! Just two comments:

Agree...

> 1)
> I didn´t test it but I suspect that there might be a problem with some of
> the default matchers, since "your" pipeline, i.e. the generic automount
> pipeline is the last one.
>
> Here are some matchers which might interfere (there are more):
>
>
>
>
>
>
> The user might name his work directory "news". In that case he won´t see
> any of his images, which is probably very confusing. I´m also not sure
> about the last matcher. Doesn´t it match everything?
>
> 2)
> You may want to link to other pages in the wiki, especially [sitemap] and
> [UnderstandingCocoonMounts].

Why not you make the change yourself? I changed some misdirected links on some 
other pages, and didn't even ask for a login... Dirt easy for small edits!!

Wiki Rules... If there was only a XML version available, so I didn't have to 
be bothered with YASL...

Niclas

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Re: Using flow

[Niclas Hedhman]

On Tuesday 04 February 2003 20:17, Murad Jura wrote:
> Hello,
>
> has anybody successfull experience in developing applications using flow
> from the Cocoon 2.1?
> I have got a January snapshot of the cocoon-dev CVS repository. Is it
> reasonably to use the flow in a production environment?

Nope. The package/class names has not even been frozen yet. Development 
against the snapshot may not even work right now.

If you want to experiment with Flows, I suggest that you use CVS with 
continous updates, and follow the debate on cocoon-dev. (It is pretty hot...)

Niclas

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Re: about commercial adds of cocoon consultants ...

[Niclas Hedhman]

On Tuesday 04 February 2003 19:30, SAXESS - Hussayn Dabbous wrote:
> Hy, all;
>
> Maybe it is a good idea to create a "commercial corner" for cocoon
> somewhere ? Consultants and companies, who are supporting cocoon
> on a commercial base may put their footprint there.
> This may be a clear signal for possibly interested "customers"
> to see, there is a growing commercial support on cocoon...
>
> As i'm just getting a big fan of Wiki, maybe there is a prominent
> place where such a page could be set up ???

I suggested on cocoon-dev that the Cocoon main page's Links section (which 
already has Live Sites) to have this link. It has much higher exposure, and I 
believe it is important to start commercialize Cocoon.

Niclas

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Re: Cocoon use worldwide

[Niclas Hedhman]

On Friday 31 January 2003 23:44, Matthew Langham wrote:
> Anyone know any VCs with money left? :-).

AN interesting aspect of Capitalism is that money never disappears. Anyone who 
claims this doesn't know how to look at the big picture.

So, where are all the money that  went around in the dotCom boom?

Wrong question. The money is back where it used to be. The investors has 
"un-got it" that the web based companies ARE INDEED bound by the same 
economic principles like all other companies. Then the dotComs don't look 
like such a bright investment after all, and investments are back into the 
whole gamut of companies.

So, to answer your question, YES there are plenty of capital available, 
probably in the trillions world-wide, but not handed out frivously to anyone 
with a $35 domain name and a catchy slogan. Prepare business plan, rally a 
competent management, draft the financials with credible cash flow and P/L 
forecasts, and you will probably find a VC if you can show a 30-50% chance of 
a 3-10 times Return-On-Investment in 3-5 years.
Easy? Not at all, and that is why many colleagues have difficulty to find 
employment compared to 3 years ago.

Niclas

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Re: Cocoon use worldwide

[Niclas Hedhman]

On Friday 31 January 2003 13:48, Jeff Ramsdale wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I'm just curious about something. I've been reading the Cocoon-users list
> for a couple of weeks or so and I see a lot of folks in Europe (and
> Australia--Jeff T!) interested in Cocoon. I'm sure it's not a matter of
> Americans (& Canadians?) not being interested, I'm sure. (Oh, & Antonio, I
> don't want to leave you out!) Right?
>
> With the utmost respect for the Project I observe that Cocoon is a bit of a
> fringe product as far as web development is concerned. I happen to believe
> this "fringe" is the leading edge of something big, which is why I'm here.
> So here's my question: If any of what I've said above has truth in it, is
> there a particular reason why Cocoon might have special appeal to
> Europeans? Is there something about the mindset of European programmers
> that leads them to Cocoon? Is Open-Source Software viewed differently, on
> the whole, in Europe than America? Does this have anything to do with
> Microsoft's influence in America? I guess that's more than one question!
> Interested in your observations...
>
> Reason I ask... I live in Seattle (Microsoft-land), and I'd love to find
> work using Cocoon and/or Java (but especially Cocoon!), but I don't see as
> much mindshare here as I think it deserves.

Interesting topic.

You might be right. A fair amount of OSS is started and lead by Europe-born 
individuals, although many now lives in the US (Linus for instance).

I think I would agree with your initial assessment that there may be 
underlying values that infuence the mind set. Exactly what it is, I am not 
sure, but I don't think it is Microsoft in this case.
Perhaps more reasonable is the "overall american attitude" of "I'm the best, 
I'm the greatest, I'm gonna get rich.", which promotes "proprietaryship" and 
"commercialization" of good ideas. 
Europeans at large are more modest and humble, and have stronger need of being 
"part of" than "in control of". 

Compare BeOS vs Linux for example. What were the driving forces behind each, 
and which path did they each take? (Also, who is still here?)

Niclas

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Re: Time to go back to JSP. Cocoon just isnt ready.

[Niclas Hedhman]

On Thursday 30 January 2003 22:45, Stephan Michels wrote:
> I found a blog, which fits perfecly ;-)
> http://blogs.werken.com/people/bob/archives/000146.html


Some people agree with each other on everything.
Some people agree with each other on some things.
Some people don't agree with each other on some things.
Some people don't agree with each other on everything.
Some people agree that they don't agree with each other.
Some people don't agree that the don't agree with each other.

I don't agree that there is an issue to agree or not on.


Niclas

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Re: XMLForms Versus Traditional HTML forms.

[Niclas Hedhman]

On Wednesday 29 January 2003 13:11, Robert Simmons wrote:
> Hmm .. I cant seem to even find the samples on my cocoon installation. Are
> they not in the current binary distribution ?

Provided you have dropped the cocoon.war into $TOMCAT_HOME/webapps, you should 
find samples in;

$TOMCAT_HOME/webapps/cocoon/samples/


Niclas

> -- Robert
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Kirchhoff, Lars" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2003 5:09 AM
> Subject: AW: XMLForms Versus Traditional HTML forms.
>
>
> But why you need then cocoon for? If you just use traditional html
> isn't cocoon a bit to much? i'm just curios? Wouldn't it then better
> just use jsp or something similar?
>
> The main advantage of cocoon and xmlform for me is still to create
> a xml document, which then can be transformed through the pipeline
> in nearly every possible format. This means creating applications or
> websites, which can serve multiple devices.
>
> Especially for xmlforms  there is a strong seperation of concerns,
> which in the first moment and for small application is a bit to
> much, but helps to divide the programming of the actual dataflow and
> business logic from the presentation layer and keeps the code
> manageable. I don't like to mix up any program code with tags from
> either xml or html. That's why I use and tried xmlform and don't
> feel comfortable with xsp.
>
> Of course you can transform the xmlform tags to html form tags,
> as long as there are not to many browser out, which are
> understanding xforms, which are still in draft.
>
> BTW does anybody know an reference implementation of an xforms
> browser?
>
> regards
> Lars
>
> > -Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
> > Von: Robert Simmons [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > Gesendet: Mittwoch, 29. Januar 2003 11:50
> > An: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Betreff: Re: XMLForms Versus Traditional HTML forms.
> >
> >
> > Well actually I already have some generators running to fetch
> > data from the
> > database. I have put that data in manually. Now I want to do
> > it dynamically.
> > Simplicity wise I should use "conventional" forms, but I am
> > not sure if that
> > is the "right" way to do it.
> >
> > -- Robert
> >
> > - Original Message -
> > From: "Niclas Hedhman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2003 4:39 AM
> > Subject: Re: XMLForms Versus Traditional HTML forms.
> >
> > On Wednesday 29 January 2003 11:16, Robert Simmons wrote:
> > > Greetings. I would like to know what people favor using.
> > >
> > > By my, admittedly limited, knowledge, the traditional HTML
> >
> > forms will still
> >
> > > work with cocoon as the request will still have access to the data.
> > > Alternatively if I use XMLForms, I'm not sure how much
> >
> > learning effort Id
> >
> > > have to invest. I read the XMLForm tutorial at
> >
> > http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/howto/xmlform-wizard/howto-xmlfor
>
> m-wizard-3.ht
>
> >ml and am still a but unclear how I define how the form will be rendered.
> > Does the user have control over that at all? If I use HTML forms then I
> > would be imbedding a form into an XSL transform which would print out the
> > form for the user.
>
> Slightly beyond my experience (I also use 'conventional' approach), but I
> see
> it as;
>
> 1. The XMLForm generator creates a XML document of the POST request.
> 2. You can aggregate that with other XML documents, static or dynamic.
> 3. Feed that to the transformer(s).
> 4. Output
>
> Meaning, the main advantage would be that you can do a fair amount of logic
> on
> the posted request in XSL (XSL is Turing complete, right?), without writing
> any Java/XSP code. For some people (those who know XSL better than Java)
> that
> is more power with less hazzle.
>
> Niclas
>
> -
> Please check that your question  has not already been answered in the
> FAQ before posting. <http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/faq/index.html>
>
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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>
>
> -
> Please check that your question  has not already been answered in the
> FAQ before posting. <http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/faq/index.html>
>
> To uns

Re: XMLForms Versus Traditional HTML forms.

[Niclas Hedhman]

On Wednesday 29 January 2003 13:01, Robert Simmons wrote:
> IT would be
> much more efficient if you could drop in a set of beans, have a Java class
> read them via introspection and then generate forms based upon the needs of
> that command. Then you would have a command driven architecture that would
> be quickly adaptable. all you have to do is drop in another command (a bean
> object) and viola, a new form gets spit out the far end. I will screw with
> this and see if I can get it to work. Call it "reflexive form generation"

You need to bring this to cocoon-dev mailing list, I think...

Niclas

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Re: XMLForms Versus Traditional HTML forms.

[Niclas Hedhman]

On Wednesday 29 January 2003 11:16, Robert Simmons wrote:
> Greetings. I would like to know what people favor using.
>
> By my, admittedly limited, knowledge, the traditional HTML forms will still
> work with cocoon as the request will still have access to the data.
> Alternatively if I use XMLForms, I'm not sure how much learning effort Id
> have to invest. I read the XMLForm tutorial at
> http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/howto/xmlform-wizard/howto-xmlform-wizard-3.ht
>ml and am still a but unclear how I define how the form will be rendered.
> Does the user have control over that at all? If I use HTML forms then I
> would be imbedding a form into an XSL transform which would print out the
> form for the user.

Slightly beyond my experience (I also use 'conventional' approach), but I see 
it as;

1. The XMLForm generator creates a XML document of the POST request.
2. You can aggregate that with other XML documents, static or dynamic.
3. Feed that to the transformer(s).
4. Output

Meaning, the main advantage would be that you can do a fair amount of logic on 
the posted request in XSL (XSL is Turing complete, right?), without writing 
any Java/XSP code. For some people (those who know XSL better than Java) that 
is more power with less hazzle.

Niclas

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Re: XML - XSL Editors?

[Niclas Hedhman]

On Wednesday 29 January 2003 11:08, Robert Simmons wrote:
> Lol .. the community is really good I think. Lots I havent figured out yet
> thats irritating me though. Like why the forms sample in the cocoon war
> doesnt match the same constructs as the XMLForm tutorial at
> http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/howto/xmlform-wizard/howto-xmlform-wizard-3.ht
>ml .
>
> Prob is that the interface is pretty irrelevant to my book but now Ive
> spent two weeks workign on it .. UGH Beginnign to think I shoulda jsut
> gone quick and dirty with JSP.

Heard "No Pain - No Gain". It applies here, more than ever...

Niclas

> -- Robert
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Antonio Gallardo" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2003 3:58 AM
> Subject: Re: XML - XSL Editors?
>
> > Will you be checking jedit.org? Please almost include it as a "usefull
> > link". I saw many books about Java and XML and all they use windows. And
> > they totally ignore some of the wonderfull applications that people can
> > use for free.
> >
> > I hope you will speak good about Cocoon and is fabulous community with
> > 7-24 support "on-line". in your book. ;-)
> >
> > Best Regards,
> >
> > Antonio Gallardo.
> >
> > Robert Simmons dijo:
> > > Hmm, well my book has very little to do with cocoon. Its an advanced
> > > java book. id be suprised if I mentioned more than a couple pages on
> > > cocoon. Basically the book will talk about various java enterprise
> > > programing and I will be using cocoon for the interface to the remote
> > > ejbs.
> > >
> > >
> > > -- Robert
> > >
> > > - Original Message -
> > > From: "Antonio Gallardo" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2003 2:24 AM
> > > Subject: Re: XML - XSL Editors?
> > >
> > >> Hey?!
> > >>
> > >> Maybe and this article can be usefull for you and your work on the
> > >> book:
>
> http://community.jedit.org/modules.php?op=modload&name=news&file=article&si
>d=
>
> > > 202
> > >
> > >> By the way, what is the name of your future book?
> > >>
> > >> Antonio Gallardo.
> > >>
> > >> Antonio Gallardo dijo:
> > >> > Robert Simmons dijo:
> > >> >> What are the best XML and XSLT editors on the market. I'm looking
> > >>
> > >> for something that is easy to use and offers the chance to edit XSL
> > >> in a WYSIWYG style. I tried XML Spy but it is not so easy to use. I
> > >> couldn't even figure out how to get an XSL preview to work
> > >> properly. It wanted me to create an sps file in order to show the
> > >> transformation but in their sps editor I couldn't even tell it to
> > >> use a file that I had already written. Way weird. I also tried
> > >> eXcelon with is much easier to use. I want to know what other
> > >> options are out there.
> > >>
> > >> > I dont know if this is the best. But I use jEdit to write Cocoon
> > >>
> > >> projects. It has a plug-in for XML, XSL highlighting and another
> > >> plug-in for XSLT tranformation that make it very easy to check what
> > >> your XSLT stylesheet do. Best of all is OpenSource and because it is
> > >> coded in Java runs in any platform. Also for file Save you can
> > >>
> > >> configure the diferents char formats:
> > >> > ISO-8859-1, UTF-8 and more.
> > >> >
> > >> > There is also a plug-in to manage all your project.
> > >> >
> > >> > more info:
> > >> >
> > >> > http://www.jedit.org/
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > Antonio Gallardo
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > 
> > >> >-
> > >>
> > >> Please check that your question  has not already been answered in
> > >> the FAQ before posting.
> > >> 
> > >>
> > >> > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> > >>
> > >> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> For additional commands,
> > >> e-mail:   <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> -
> > >> Please check that your question  has not already been answered in the
> > >> FAQ before posting. 
> > >>
> > >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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> > >
> > > -
> > > Please check that your question  has not already been answered in the
> > > FAQ before posting. 
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> >
> > -
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> >
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> --

Re: How to open 2 windows?

[Niclas Hedhman]

On Wednesday 29 January 2003 10:50, Robert Simmons wrote:
> I had a great page today. The dumb shits put a JavaScript action on closing
> the page that popped up a dialog saying "if you want to stay at our page,
> press ok. If you don't want to leave press cancel." The only way you could
> leave that page was to kill the browser with the task manager. They may
> think that is smart but I know one thing, Ill never buy a single product
> from them. I don't remember the URL though so don't ask. =)

I assume you are using IE. Not sure what you can customize with the JavaScript 
settings in it. If not much, I suggest you get a better browser. Opera or a 
Linux based one, like Konqueror (comes with KDE), gives the user the all the 
control it takes (control over window.open).

Niclas

>
> ----- Original Message -
> From: "Niclas Hedhman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2003 3:31 AM
> Subject: Re: How to open 2 windows?
>
> On Wednesday 29 January 2003 05:21, Robert Simmons wrote:
> > Just a warning. There has been a study recently that quite well confirms
> > that using popups in a commercial web site is a good way to drive traffic
> > AWAY from that site. Personally, they annoy the shit out of me. If I
> > really needed to get my penis enlarged Id look it up on google.de.
> > Getting offered it from half the web sites on the internet could be bad
> > for self confidence. =)
>
> I agree ( where do you can you get the enlargement, you said?? ;o) )
>
> A lot of people disables pop-ups, or (like me) have the browser ask me if I
> want it. First one on a site, I consider ok. If commercial, then
> permenantly turned off for that site.
>
> I can't turn it off all the time, since some sincere sites are using this
> technique, for other things than adverts.
>
> Niclas
>
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Re: How to open 2 windows?

[Niclas Hedhman]

On Wednesday 29 January 2003 05:21, Robert Simmons wrote:
> Just a warning. There has been a study recently that quite well confirms
> that using popups in a commercial web site is a good way to drive traffic
> AWAY from that site. Personally, they annoy the shit out of me. If I really
> needed to get my penis enlarged Id look it up on google.de. Getting offered
> it from half the web sites on the internet could be bad for self
> confidence. =)

I agree ( where do you can you get the enlargement, you said?? ;o) )

A lot of people disables pop-ups, or (like me) have the browser ask me if I 
want it. First one on a site, I consider ok. If commercial, then permenantly 
turned off for that site.

I can't turn it off all the time, since some sincere sites are using this 
technique, for other things than adverts.

Niclas

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Re: Cocoon Job opps in Frankfurt, Germany

[Niclas Hedhman]

On Tuesday 28 January 2003 22:32, Jeremy Aston wrote:
> The UK rate has dropped significantly.  You are really looking at something
> like £35-£40 per hour (as opposed to £60-£70 ph in the past couple of
> years. $500ph is v. reasonable.

Not ph, per day

Well, I live in a low-cost country (Malaysia) which is 50-75% lower cost of 
living than northern Europe (Sweden, Germany is my experience) at large. On 
top of that, I don't pay much income tax (<5%).
Can really recommend it...


> At the end of the day these angencies never put a rate since they want to
> get as good a person as cheap as possible!

So do I ;o)  A average programmer here would cost me ~USD1000 a month, a top 
notch one with special competency would be about twice that.


Niclas

> jez
>
> > -----Original Message-
> > From: Niclas Hedhman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > Sent: 28 January 2003 05:13
> > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Subject: Re: Cocoon Job opps in Frankfurt, Germany
> >
> > On Tuesday 28 January 2003 09:20, Jeremy Aston wrote:
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > I keep seeing ads for contractors based in Frankfurt on a UK based job
> > > site...
> >
> > http://www.it.jobserve.com/jobserve/searchresults.asp?jobType=*&d=
>
> 5&order=R
>
> >a nk&page=1&q=cocoon
>
> They almost all list "Rate: Market". What is that roughly? Just curious
> what it pays to be "employed" nowadays in this kind of field...
>
> Anyone willing to reveal?
>
> Me? I live in the "low cost" country so I charge only(?) around $500 per
> day,
> as consultant.
>
> Niclas
>
> > I have tried to get in there as a UK based person (and Cocooon book
> > co-author) but the company are 100% set on having an on site person and
> > no remote workers/software houses/cooperatives.  I can't move to Germany
> > so
>
> am
>
> > out of the picture - bah!  These people have advertised reguarly over the
> > past 4-6 months so the work must be ongoing.
> >
> > If anyone does get in there and find they can put in a word for remote
> > workers (I will go to a couple of times a month for a couple of days)
> > then I'm here!
> >
> > rgds
> >
> > Jeremy
>
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> __
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Everything you'll ever need on one web page
> from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts
> http://uk.my.yahoo.com
>
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Re: proposal: "The Newbies Competence Center"

[Niclas Hedhman]

On Tuesday 28 January 2003 18:48, SAXESS - Hussayn Dabbous wrote:
> seems as if my round up generqted even more input ;-)
> thanks to all of you.
>
> so what do we have now? i reround up here:
>
> 1.) there is a strong push towards "role based" documentation
> 2.) there is a strong recommendation to use cocoon-wiki
> 3.) the discussion roles on over the whole documentation set
>
> hmm... seems so as if this gets a bigger task, than expected ;-)
>
> by the way, i looked up the word "newbie". It may be of interst,
> that this is the short from of "new boy". Hey, we can't do that ...
>
> I'd recommend to rename this to "The Cocoon Competence Center"
> and start with the "beginners" section on the cocoon wiki...
>
> any doubts ?

Lead the way...

I posted on cocoon-dev that this is under way, to spur some active devloper to 
keep an eye on accuracy in content.

I am having a fair amount of free time nowadays (awaiting management decision 
of what I can do, without stepping on toes, hurting egos politics!!), 
enjoy writing and willing to join in for a few weeks or so.


Niclas


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Re: How to open 2 windows?

[Niclas Hedhman]

On Tuesday 28 January 2003 17:27, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I want to open 2 windows on one "event". The xml/xsp (I mean the data)
> would be the same, but the output would be: first window html, second
> window pdf.
>
> e.g. my "dummy" sitemap:
> ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>
> How can I manage this? Can I mange this from my sitemap?

I am far from an expert, but it seems like you are asking for something 
impossible (there is only a single destination).

However, by applying your HTML knowledge, you can have the first "html.xsl" 
generate a "OnLoad" and automatic popup (different URL) that brings the PDF 
document in a separate window on the client with the second HTTP request.
Maybe not clear enough, understand?

Niclas

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Re: proposal: "The Newbies Competence Center"

[Niclas Hedhman]

On Tuesday 28 January 2003 15:00, Derek Hohls wrote:
> The "First Steps" chapter listed below is the one that needs
> some thought and attention.  My feeling is that we need to
> focus on the problems that needs to be solved, rather than
> a lengthy description of what is *possible* with Cocoon.

Good point!

If that is also made from the "background of user" aspect, so that;

"You know XML/XSL and want to publish static content - click here"

"You are a DB developer who wants to expose XML data - click here"

"You are Stefano Mazzocchi and want to - you are in the wrong area"


Base it on use cases and add "1 hour or less" exercises.
I assume that a pre-condition here is a "suitable" distro to start from.

Niclas

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Re: [SVG] Transparent background of generated PNG

[Niclas Hedhman]

On Tuesday 28 January 2003 21:14, Martin Lüthi wrote:
> Hi
>
> I generate a SVG and serialize it as PNG with transparent background.
> In Mozilla and Konqueror everything looks fine (also an Windows), but in IE
> 5.0 the background of the PNG is white. Is this a browser-specific problem?
> Who can point me to a workaround?
>
> My SVG generating code reads (opacity should be the transparency of the
> background):
>
>   
> 
>   
> 
>   

"opacity" means "non-transparency", (and without checking spec) shouldn't 
therefor opacity=0.0 mean "transparent" ??

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Re: proposal: "The Newbies Competence Center"

[Niclas Hedhman]

Better yet, Cocoon already defines 4 "production roles", and add to that the 
"Cocoon Developer" we get;

1. Content
2. Style
3. Logic
4. Management/Admin
5. Cocoon Developer

Note that some docs can always be linked from more than one section. Same 
thing for a new FAQ section, where there could be multiple "target-role" for 
each Q and the generated FAQ would compile according to your 
"role-entrypoint".

Niclas

On Tuesday 28 January 2003 06:05, Robert Simmons wrote:
> In my opinion cocoon needs to start architecting itself towards four types
> of cocoon consumers:
>
> Presentation Developer:
> This person uses editors to define style sheets for transforming data into
> presentation layers. This user should not be concerned with the extension
> mechanism of cocoon. In a real company, this user would be a graphic
> designer. Should this user need some special kind of transformation, they
> would ask the next a Content Developer.
>
> Administrator:
> This person is responsible for maintaining the health of the cocoon
> instance. This user would typically be a network engineer at a company.
> They should have functionality to track throughput and performance and get
> an idea of the kind of volume being handled by cocoon via some statistics
> pages.
>
> Content Developer:
> Data is the prime responsibility for the content developer. He builds data
> engines using custom generator classes, static XML and various other
> mechanisms of cocoon. This user is served by a programmer in a company. The
> developer Is concerned only with the interface to cocoon and not with any
> of the internals. He doesn't need to know why things work, he just needs to
> know that if he implements interface x and generates content via sax
> events, then cocoon magically spits out his XML.
>
> Cocoon Developer:
> This is a consumer that is concerned with altering the cocoon distribution.
> This person has varying levels of knowledge of the internals of cocoon and
> seeks to contribute to the general product via commits to CVS.
>
> ---
>
> To accomplish this we need, IMHO, to implement a few things in cocoon. The
> suggestions are annotated with the target roles indicated below their
> title. it is for these target roles that we do the task.
>
> Document the API:
> For (Cocoon Developer, Content Developer)
> Developers of cocoon should go through the entire API and document it.
> Using a tool like Jalopy, all of the source code can be formatted to
> standards set in the jalopy options. For each entry that is not documented,
> a todo list can be generated and worked through to remove all of the todo
> tag entries. Cocoon can be used to parse the javadoc files and, using XSLT,
> extract all of the todo entries. This would give the consumers the ability
> to use the API more effectively.
>
> Abstract Out References to third party libraries:
> (Cocoon Developer)
> Anytime the Cocoon Developer needs to build a new custom extension to
> cocoon, he should have to only import the cocoon.jar file into his
> classpath to compile. All of these interfaces will then be documented in
> one API document set for easy consumption. This would be accomplished by
> identifying all entry points and facading them with interfaces. So the
> avalon request object would instead be org.apache.cocoon.api.Request. The
> user deals only with the interfaces and not with anything internal.
>
> Convert logging to use Log4j:
> (Administrator, Content Developer, Cocoon Developer)
> This would involve converting Logikit logging to Log4j logging mechanisms.
> Although pervasive throughout the code, the changes are mostly a bunch of
> search and replace activities. It can hardly be denied that Log4j has won
> the Java logging market. There are already a number of professional tools
> used for viewing Log4j output. Such tools as those used in consuming JMS
> logging events are used by network engineers all over to monitor health of
> the system. There is little point trying to fight the tide. Making Cocoon
> use Log4j would have the advantage of allowing these network admins to
> configure single Log4j property files for their whole platform.
>
> Build documentation specifically targeted at each user role:
> (all)
> This documentation should include getting started guides for all four types
> of users and varying levels of tutorials. For instance Presentation
> Developers might get a tutorial on XSL and XML. Content Developers would
> get current tutorials such as making your own generator and introduction to
> forms in XSL. In addition, other tutorials such as the sitemap tutorial
> would be common to all roles. This documentation should be sectioned
> appropriate to the roles.
>
> Create a distribution stripped of every example except a single XML-XSL
> transform welcome page for use as a starter point.
> (Content Developer)
>
> Change the Libs format:
> (Content Developer)
> The libs should all be packaged into one big jar containing e

Re: newbies documentation - yet another wiki?

[Niclas Hedhman]

On Monday 27 January 2003 20:47, Peter Flynn wrote:
> Manos wrote:
> > No, I was talking about Microsoft Office XP not 2k; it does have native
> > XML support. For example "You can save Microsoft Excel 2002 spreadsheets
> > and Microsoft Access 2002 database tables, queries, and views as
> > XML."[1].
> >
> > Please not that I'm *not* an M$ fun ;-)
>
> Office-11 will have native XML support (ie it will be able to edit an
> XML document according to a Schema (not a DTD) you provide, not just
> its own internal one).

Office-11 ?? Does that refer to the YEAR it will be released, as has been 
custom before??

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Re: Cocoon Job opps in Frankfurt, Germany

[Niclas Hedhman]

On Tuesday 28 January 2003 09:20, Jeremy Aston wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I keep seeing ads for contractors based in Frankfurt on a UK based job
> site...
>
> http://www.it.jobserve.com/jobserve/searchresults.asp?jobType=*&d=5&order=R
>a nk&page=1&q=cocoon

They almost all list "Rate: Market". What is that roughly? Just curious what 
it pays to be "employed" nowadays in this kind of field...

Anyone willing to reveal?

Me? I live in the "low cost" country so I charge only(?) around $500 per day, 
as consultant.

Niclas

> I have tried to get in there as a UK based person (and Cocooon book
> co-author) but the company are 100% set on having an on site person and no
> remote workers/software houses/cooperatives.  I can't move to Germany so am
> out of the picture - bah!  These people have advertised reguarly over the
> past 4-6 months so the work must be ongoing.
>
> If anyone does get in there and find they can put in a word for remote
> workers (I will go to a couple of times a month for a couple of days) then
> I'm here!
>
> rgds
>
> Jeremy


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Re: newbie question

[Niclas Hedhman]

On Monday 27 January 2003 18:16, Tellis George wrote:
> My question is - is cocoon good for static pages or can it be used for
> highly interactive dynamic pages?

Consensus here is; WEYWY
What Ever You Want You Get

or so it seems...

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Re: newbies documentation - yet another wiki?

[Niclas Hedhman]

On Monday 27 January 2003 17:14, Bertrand Delacretaz wrote:
> Hi Hussayn,
>
> I mostly agree with your point of view, except on the "separate wiki"
> thing. (And by the way, thanks a lot for your "less talking, more doing"
> approach!)
>
> What worries me *a lot* with starting yet another documentation site is
> the dispersion of resources - wouldn't it be much more efficient to have
> you, Derek and possibly others joing the (mythical) Cocoon docs team
> with the aim of creating these newbies docs?
>
> See also http://wiki.cocoondev.org/Wiki.jsp?page=CocoonDocsPlan, I think
> your concept can fit nicely into this.
>
> I'm convinced that it is possible to create the "newbies competence
> center" that you mention *inside* the existing wiki - a well-designed
> start page and navigation should help newbies find their way.

Maybe I am a real idiot, but shouldn't the Cocoon Documentation be published 
by Cocoon (it IS a publishing framework) itself upon installation??? This 
already happens, but we all agree it falls short to point the newcomer in the 
right direction. But still, the pointer must be where the newcomer looks 
first, among the docs that come with the download (or am I the only one 
starting there?).

Wiki is fine for "loose" and quickly changing documents, somewhere between 
Stefano's (and others) "Random Thoughts" on mailing lists and proper 
documentation efforts.

If Hussyan, Derek and whoelse are really serious about this (which we ALL pray 
they are), crank up the first XML doc, submit it to cocoon-dev, and you have 
committer status in no time, because;
1. Developers hate to apply patches and files submitted by email.
2. Developers LOVE people dedicated to documentation.

And this is especially true on cocoon-dev ;o)

So, what I suggest, is a new "first page" of Cocoon, which basically is a 
level above the current one, and spawns off into 4-6 lower levels, depending 
on the users background and interest;
1) Newbie's Guide to Killer App.
2) User's Manual
3) User's Reference
4) Architecture
5) Developer's Guide to Killer App.

Or something like that.

My 0.02 ringgit, about 0.5 cent.

Niclas

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Re: Getting a generator class to reload.

[Niclas Hedhman]

On Monday 27 January 2003 16:21, Robert Simmons wrote:
> I am working to create a custom generator and I have deployed my WAR in
> exploded format. The problem is that now when I change the class file that
> the generator uses, cocoon keeps using the old class file. How can I get
> the classloader in cocoon to reload the class?

When that happens, I touch the sitemap. Always works.

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Re: Cocoon is complex, but worth it! Some Answers to your dilemma

[Niclas Hedhman]

First of all, I generally agree with you Robert.
1. Cocoon is overly daunting at first sight.
2. MS get you going much faster.
3. Separation between User and Developer must be stronger.
4. Point-Click deployment tools should become a priority.

There are a few things I don't agree with;

1. I downloaded Cocoon for the first time in 2years in "binary" form and 
dropped the ready-made cocoon.war into Tomcat (also default config).
Worked straight out of the box, although the docs suggested otherwise. Since I 
was involved in discussing the sitemap concept in the first place, I knew how 
that mechanism work, and was within an hour able to publish my first 
document.

2. Everything can not be learnt in 10 minutes. I bet you spent a few weeks 
before mastering Java. How long for XML? Or why not the "MS friendly" Excel?
Certain things takes time, Cocoon is one where you probably need to "invest 
time". You talk about "real business". And I do "real business", no paycheck, 
no security, only what I produce.
The matter of fact, "investments" are almost always "upfront expenditure" for 
long-term "returns", a.k.a Return-On-Investment (ROI). Sometimes expressed in 
time, even for money. I invest $100,000, ROI=2years, meaning from now until 
24months it has cost more than it returned, after that it is "profit".
You do it all the time. Learn new things to be more productive. Why waste the 
time? It's up to you.

3. 61MB download is a problem??? The dozens of CDs that MSDN consists of is 
not? Try to download them, or a portion of it. What is the footprint of 
dotNet? Downloadable? I don't know, but I doubt it.
In fact, when I was shouting about the trouble to install Cocoon in the old 
days, requiring 10 separate downloads from almost as many sources, I was told 
that the bundle would be too big. I'm happy that people reconsidered it.

Finally,
There are efforts going on to improve the separation, and you come back in a 
year, and you will be able to create and deploy COBs (just learnt it) as easy 
as a WAR, and no need to "see", "hear" or "smell" internals of Cocoon.

I feel you have passed judgement already, but I recommend you to make it a 
"preliminary injunction", and re-evaluate your position, especially when you 
have a weekend to "invest". It should take much more...

Niclas

On Sunday 26 January 2003 10:47, Robert Simmons wrote:
> > Robert Simmons dijo:
> > >No professional dev wants, or has the time, to blow 2 to
> > > three weeks just to get separation of logic and presentation.
> >
> > How you think a Professional developer do that? I ended my Master Degree
> > in Computer Science in 1995 just before Java hits the streets and Windows
> > 95 was just at beta release? How do you think I am here now?
> >
> > > Too high of a price for too little gain.
> >
> > Please if you said that phrase you dont really understand what is in the
> > game. I recommend you to check how this little grain affect totally the
> > Web machinery at all. I recommend you to read the second chapter of the
> > Carsten Matthew book:  XML: Building XML Applications. You can find it at
> > amazon.com
>
> Well, I dont think you understand the pressures in professional circles to
> meet deadlines. In the open source world, you have all the time in the
> world to screw with things. When using a product in a working business
> deadlines get in the way of doing things the "right" way. This is an
> explanation of why .NET has been successful. Its a cheap piece of garbage,
> but its easy to get started. Noone wants to be an expert in 10 hours but
> they at leat want to have somethign of a clue.
>
> > > Powerful? I believe you. I believe its powerful. Scalable? I don't
> > > know.
> >
> > Scalable? Please, just check JBoss.org and answer yourself the question.
> >
> > > The Wiki page runs very slow for me and a tutorial linked to me from
> > > the IBM site (which was done in cocoon) was taking 10 to 15 seconds per
> > > page to render.
> >
> > This is an issue for your computer and/or Internet connection.
>
> I dont knwo the cuase but it isnt my isp.
>
> > I live in
> > Managua, Nicaragua. Maybe it is so far that you dont know where is it.
> > But the wiki takes me less that 3 secs. Of course I use Red Hat Linux 8.0
> > and Mozilla that is faster than MS IE. Sometimes I go down and use a
> > Windows machine, but I always use Mozilla, because it is faster.
> >
> > Check http://www.mozilla.org
>
> Great. You like mozilla. Do me a favor and go out there and convince all
> the bluechip companies to switch. You may not like microsoft but in a
> business world you have to deal with it. Whether that is bad or good is
> irrlevant.
>
> > > Put that in production and your company can kiss sales
> > > goodbye. Internet users are impatient and any guy with a DSL isn't
> > > going to wait 15 seconds for your page.
> >
> > This is a developers issue, not a Cocoon issue. There are many books
> > related about web design. How to improve performance using CSS, etc

Re: Cocoon is too complex for consumption?

[Niclas Hedhman]

On Saturday 25 January 2003 21:05, Jeff Turner wrote:
> On Sat, Jan 25, 2003 at 06:22:10PM +0800, Niclas Hedhman wrote:
> > In fact, I think Cocoon is so powerful, that it has kind of grown out of
> > its "servlet" image. It should traverse to the next level (or two), and
> > has its own deployment system. Collect your stuff (sitemap and all) into
> > a JAR and "hand it over". It is almost like that already, and should be a
> > fairly easy addition to make, but the developer community is much more
> > focused on additional features.
>
> http://wiki.cocoondev.org/Wiki.jsp?page=BlocksDefinition
> http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=xml-cocoon-dev&m=101603335007960&w=2
> http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=xml-cocoon-dev&m=101732982704553&w=2

Implemented already?? or part of the upcoming 2.1?

Niclas

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Re: Cocoon is too complex for consumption?

[Niclas Hedhman]

On Saturday 25 January 2003 14:17, Robert Simmons wrote:
> That is the impression that I am getting and I'm curious as to feedback
> from list users.

I bet you will ;o)

> So how could cocoon be of use to me and others like me? If I could build a
> war with simply any special classes I have (generators, etc) my XSL pages
> and a sitemap. Then I deploy that war and cocoon figures out how to wire
> things together.

In general I agree that Cocoon is too "feature-oriented" and not at all 
"user-oriented".
If you know the product as the back of your hand, yes, you think everything is 
dirt easy, but it is overwhelming to get started. (The good news is that it 
is 10x better now than in the "old days", when you needed ~10 additional 
downloads and installations.)

In fact, I think Cocoon is so powerful, that it has kind of grown out of its 
"servlet" image. It should traverse to the next level (or two), and has its 
own deployment system. Collect your stuff (sitemap and all) into a JAR and 
"hand it over". It is almost like that already, and should be a fairly easy 
addition to make, but the developer community is much more focused on 
additional features.

Well, well... 

Niclas

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