RE: Spacing issues?

[Robert Koberg]

Hi,

Andre was a bit off with his comments. Also he is using a long-hand version
when there is a simpler way to accomplish it (attribute value templates or
{} in an attribute). Joerg was showing you how to "strip" the leading and
trailing whitespace from your "report-name" element's value.

This is a common requirement when you need to place element content in an
attribute. So you are not using a variable in this case (though you could).
Think about this:


  My report


Just using this value would give you:



You use the normalize-space function to get rid of the extra whitespace so:



Becomes:



I would recommend you both get Mike Kay's XSLT book from Wrox (if it still
out there...), or perhaps Jeni Tennison's Xpath book as it is more geared to
beginners. I wouldn't recommend XML in a Nutshell as an XSL book.

Best,
-Rob

> -Original Message-
> From: Tim Bachta [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2003 3:49 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
> I do not have a xsl:variable named "report-name"  how do I declare that?
> I am going to get that book this evening.
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Andre Thenot [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2003 4:30 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: Spacing issues?
> 
> That was an XPath expression.
> 
> Use (assuming you have an xsl:variable named "report-name"):
> 
> 
> panel_sw
> 
> 
> Further reading: XML in a nutshell, published by O'Reilly, look
> at chapter on XSL.
> 
> A.
> 
> On Tuesday, June 10, 2003, at 05:19 PM, Tim Bachta wrote:
> 
> > Where do I put that?
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Joerg Heinicke [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2003 3:06 PM
> > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Subject: Re: Spacing issues?
> >
> > {normalize-space(report-name)}
> >
> > Joerg
> >
> > Tim Bachta wrote:
> >> How come I am getting huge amounts of space between hard-coded items
> > and
> >> database items in my view source when they should be no space
> > according
> >> to my code?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Ex.
> >>
> >> Code =  I would
> > expect
> >> 
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Source = 
> >>
> >> * *
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Tim Bachta
> >
> >
> > -
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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> >
> >
> > -
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> >
> >
> --
> André Thénot - [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> p  e  a  c  e  :  p  a  i  x  :  p  a  x  :  s  h  a  l  o  m
> 
> 
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RE: 2.1-dev Logs at WEB-INF/logs/

[Robert Koberg]

You /could/ use it as a distinguisher between an XSL that is used strictly
for 'styling' or an XSL that is used to 'transform' a tree.

You can use two different root elements in an XSL:

- xsl:transform  boo.xslt
- xsl:stylesheet boo.xsl

It doesn't really matter, but it can keep things more 'separated.'

Best,
-Rob

> -Original Message-
> From: Joerg Heinicke [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2003 11:35 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
> e nio wrote:
> > Also just wondering why the welcome.xslt  has the extension
> > of "xslt" instead of xsl? Not that it matters what extension as
> > long as it matches the structure and namespaces declared in it,
> > but more of curiousity to a changing trend?
> 
> It's like *.jpeg vs. *.jpg ... the old DOS 8.3 file naming.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Joerg
> 
> 
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RE: XALAN vs. XSLT Transformer

[Robert Douglass]

XALAN is an XSLT Transformation engine. By default, it is the engine used by the 
cocoon XSLT Transformer, which is just a cocoon component, and not tied to any 
specific engine implementation. 

-Original Message-
From: Helmut Tammen [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, 31 March, 2003 10:48 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: XALAN vs. XSLT Transformer


Hi,

can anyone describe in a short form what´s the difference between the XALAN 
and the XSLT Transformer?

Thanks
Helmut


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RE: tabs in the output

[Robert Koberg]

Hi,

This will have the same problems and is totally unnecessary. It is much better,
IMO, to use attribute value templates '{}' when possible.

The problem would be fixed by:


  


best,
-Rob

> -Original Message-
> From: Lionel Crine [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2003 7:18 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: tabs in the output
>
>
> Why don't you try :
>
>   
>   results?city= select="name"/>
>   
>   
>
> instead of :
>
> 
>  
> 
>
>
> At 16:10 20/03/2003 +0100, you wrote:
> >Hi!
> >I don' know if this is OT, beause I cant find the problem!
> >
> >I'm writing a stylesheet that transforms xml int xhtml
> >(Transitional/basic/Mobile Profile).
> >I use Cocoon 2.0.4 as publishing framework.
> >
> >I have a problem with a portion of code generated:
> >The goal is to produce something like this:  >href="results?city=Rome">Rome
> >
> >The xml is like this:
> >
> > Rome
> > ...
> > .
> >
> >
> >
> >The stylesheet I wrote is this:
> >
> >
> >.
> > 
> >.
> >
> >
> >
> >But the result is
> >
> >Rome
> >
> >
> >I think the ":
" are tabs, but I really don't know why they are inserted!
> >Of course this causes an error when you follow that link... (not on all
> >browsers... with IE it works correctly, but, for example, with the Nokia
> >Mobile Browser... It doesn't)
> >
> >
> >Is this a encoding problem?? Or a serialization problem?
> >( Here I put the serializaer I use...
> > >name="xhtml-Basic" pool-grow="2" pool-max="64"
> >pool-min="2" src="org.apache.cocoon.serialization.XMLSerializer">
> >-//W3C//DTD XHTML Basic 1.0//EN
> >http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-basic/xhtml-basic10.dtd octype-system>
> >
> >)
> >
> >If yes, How can I solve it??
> >Any idea is well accepted!!
> >
> >Thank you for all the answers. Best regards,
> >
> >Nesto
>
>
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setting response header late in pipeline

[Robert Douglass]

How does one set a response header (204 No Content for example) late in the
pipeline, like right befor the serializer or after transformer?

Thanks,
Robert Douglass


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character encoding problem with resource reader?

[Robert Douglass]

I'm encountering a problem where this à character in a javascript file
causes illegal character exceptions when read with the resource reader, but
not when I open the file up directly from the filesystem. The character
occurs inside a javascript character array ["Ã"]. Cocoon serves an html page
and the .js file is then loaded as an included, also served by Cocoon. Any
tricks to using the resource reader? My map:read tag has two parameters,
type="resource" and src. Do I need to specify encoding or mime-type to
guarantee the accurate reading of text files?

-Robert Douglass


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SOLUTION: double namespace attribute in SQL Transformer

[Robert Douglass]

Here is the solution that I believe Charles was suggesting (for those who
are as XML inept as I, it is nice to have this in black and white)


http://www.w3.org/1999/XSL/Transform";
xmlns:sql="http://apache.org/cocoon/SQL/2.0";>




  

  
   
SELECT * FROM foo
   
  

  






--
   Don't know why, exactly, but this has been discussed here before and
the work around is to use namespace prefixes on all elements, ie don't
use a default namespace in the document with the query.  Something along
those lines anyway.  This works for me.

Charles

Robert Douglass wrote:

>Does anyone know why my sql transformation returns an element with two
xmlns
>attributes?
>
>http://apache.org/cocoon/SQL/2.0";
>xmlns="http://apache.org/cocoon/SQL/2.0";>
>
>Using cocoon-2.0.4-bm14
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>The xml going into the sql transformation looks like this:
>http://apache.org/cocoon/SQL/2.0";>
>select type from all_documents where id='4711'
>
>
>Thanks,
>
>Robert Douglass
>


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RE: double namespace attribute

[Robert Douglass]

Thank you Charles. The only tag with a default namespace is ... what
namespace should it be, and where do I define it?

-Robert Douglass

-Original Message-
From: Charles Yates [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, 12 March, 2003 12:03 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: double namespace attribute


   Don't know why, exactly, but this has been discussed here before and
the work around is to use namespace prefixes on all elements, ie don't
use a default namespace in the document with the query.  Something along
those lines anyway.  This works for me.

Charles

Robert Douglass wrote:

>Does anyone know why my sql transformation returns an element with two
xmlns
>attributes?
>
>http://apache.org/cocoon/SQL/2.0";
>xmlns="http://apache.org/cocoon/SQL/2.0";>
>
>Using cocoon-2.0.4-bm14
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>The xml going into the sql transformation looks like this:
>http://apache.org/cocoon/SQL/2.0";>
>select type from all_documents where id='4711'
>
>
>Thanks,
>
>Robert Douglass
>
>
>-
>To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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>
>
>
>



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Re: tag inside xsl:attribute's value

[Robert Sösemann]

Hey Joerg,

actually we solved the problem by a dirty quickhack using base64 encoding of
the xml Fragment.
The problem was the following.

DB stores articles as xml fragment (kind of document model)
to make it editable in our CMS we use an wysiwyglike applet which displays
this article in its presentation form instead of xml.

Therefore we need to send this xml fragment (read out of db by Generator )
to an applet in our html page.
To produce this page we transform the generated xml by an xsl.

Thats where the xml fragment is passed to the applet like I mentioned
before.

Maybe you have a better solution. Otherwise thanks for your help, anyway.

Rob
- Original Message -
From: "Joerg Heinicke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2003 7:20 PM
Subject: Re: tag inside xsl:attribute's value


> Hi Robert,
>
> Robert Sösemann wrote:
> > I have an applet which takes an xml fragment  as input, because it
displays
> > document by reading the underlying xml document model.
> >
> > I need to give this xml fragment to the applet by inserting it into an
html
> > param tag like this.
> >
> > 
> >
> > Till now I did that inside an XSP with
> >
> > 
> >  >
name="value">contentObject.getXMLSnippet()xsl:attribute
> >
> > 
> >
> > But now I need to do the same inside an XSL, and IT DOES NOT WORK. All
> > Tags/XML-Element are stripped out. Nothing left than plain Text.
> >
> > Whats wrong here? Any idea?
>
> that's correct behaviour. You can't store an XML snippet in an attribute
> or as an attribute's value. It's different in XSP, where the XML
> elements and so  are converted into java first. Can you
> be a bit more specific what you want to reach. Bringing the XML fragment
> back to the client?
>
> Regards,
>
> Joerg
>
>
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tag inside xsl:attribute's value

[Robert Sösemann]

I have an applet which takes an xml fragment  as input, because it displays
document by reading the underlying xml document model.

I need to give this xml fragment to the applet by inserting it into an html
param tag like this.



Till now I did that inside an XSP with


contentObject.getXMLSnippet()xsl:attribute
>


But now I need to do the same inside an XSL, and IT DOES NOT WORK. All
Tags/XML-Element are stripped out. Nothing left than plain Text.

Whats wrong here? Any idea?

Thanks in advance. Rob

....
 ROBERT SÖSEMANN  ([EMAIL PROTECTED])

 schwärzlocherstr. 29/1 | 72070 tübingen
 tel : 07071 / 400 880


 icq# : 100 467 870
 pgp-keys : www.webspace-journey.de/pgp.asc



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double namespace attribute

[Robert Douglass]

Does anyone know why my sql transformation returns an element with two xmlns
attributes?

http://apache.org/cocoon/SQL/2.0";
xmlns="http://apache.org/cocoon/SQL/2.0";>

Using cocoon-2.0.4-bm14














The xml going into the sql transformation looks like this:
http://apache.org/cocoon/SQL/2.0";>
select type from all_documents where id='4711'


Thanks,

Robert Douglass


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RE: cocoon and new eclipse java compiler

[Robert Douglass]

I had this when there was legacy code that we imported into Eclipse where
people had used semicolons to close { } blocks. Here's an example that would
cause an unreachable code:

try {
...
} catch (...) {...};

The semicolon is superfluous, but doesn't cause a problem in this block:

if(){...};

because it is interpreted as a complete Java statement which does nothing.
Same in the first example, except you can never get there. VisualAge doesn't
complain, but Eclipse does.

-Robert Douglass

-Original Message-
From: Leszek Gawron [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, 06 March, 2003 9:32 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: cocoon and new eclipse java compiler


I have updated my cocoon installation today and I started to get a LOOOT of
"Unreachable code" errors disappeared while switching back to Pizza
What may be a problem ?
ouzo
--
__
 | /  \ |Leszek Gawron//  \\
\_\\  //_/  [EMAIL PROTECTED]  _\\()//_
 .'/()\'. Phone: +48(600)341118 / //  \\ \
  \\  //  recursive: adj; see recursive  | \__/ |

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Re: Generate XSL with XSP?

[robert . soesemann]

Sorry for accidentally sending private mail to the list.

My fault. Won't happen again.

Robert
> Du hast es hingekriegt ?!!! Yipee! Ich habs genahnt das das
> geht.
> 
> Super, danke Thommi, must mir heute abend mal zeigen was bei mir falsch
> war.
> Dann kannste ja mindestens 4 XSL wegschmeissen
> Und dann gibts auch nur noch basepath und net mehr cms.
> 
> Col Rob
> - Original Message -
> From: "Thomas Haditsch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 3:22 AM
> Subject: Re: Generate XSL with XSP?
> 
> 
> sorry, should have used 'cocoon:/' instead of 'cocoon://'. that solved the
> problem!
> 
> At 03:19 04.03.2003 +0100, you wrote:
> >no, that's not the problem. i managed to dynamically create the xsl using
> >a custom generator instead of a xsp, but now the xsl that includes it
> >complains that the variable 'basepath' has not been defined if i do it
> >this way:
> >
> >
> >and if i do
> >
> >it tries to load the file from disk.
> >
> >any ideas if (and how) this can be solved?
> >
> >thanx in advance,
> >thomas
> >
> >
> >At 00:47 04.03.2003 +0100, you wrote:
> >>Thanks alot for your answer. Yes that was wrong BUT I didn't even came
> to
> >>the point where including the stylesheet was of interest.
> >>
> >>That is because the XSP did never generate the desired XSL.  The output
> of
> >>my XSP was just an emtpty  Tag.
> >>No other elements were created. I guess it a namespace problem. What do
> you
> >>think?
> >>
> >>Robert
> >>- Original Message -
> >>From: "Upayavira" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >>To: "Robert Sösemann" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>;
> >><[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >>Sent: Monday, March 03, 2003 8:03 PM
> >>Subject: Re: Generate XSL with XSP?
> >>
> >>
> >> > Robert,
> >> >
> >> > > 
> >> >
> >> > Is it as simple as changing this line to:
> >> >  
> >> > to allow the include to call an internal pipeline?
> >> >
> >> > Regards, Upayavira
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > -
> >> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >> > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >>-
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> >
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Re: Generate XSL with XSP?

[Robert Sösemann]

Du hast es hingekriegt ?!!! Yipee! Ich habs genahnt das das
geht.

Super, danke Thommi, must mir heute abend mal zeigen was bei mir falsch war.
Dann kannste ja mindestens 4 XSL wegschmeissen
Und dann gibts auch nur noch basepath und net mehr cms.

Col Rob
- Original Message -
From: "Thomas Haditsch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 3:22 AM
Subject: Re: Generate XSL with XSP?


sorry, should have used 'cocoon:/' instead of 'cocoon://'. that solved the
problem!

At 03:19 04.03.2003 +0100, you wrote:
>no, that's not the problem. i managed to dynamically create the xsl using
>a custom generator instead of a xsp, but now the xsl that includes it
>complains that the variable 'basepath' has not been defined if i do it
>this way:
>
>
>and if i do
>
>it tries to load the file from disk.
>
>any ideas if (and how) this can be solved?
>
>thanx in advance,
>thomas
>
>
>At 00:47 04.03.2003 +0100, you wrote:
>>Thanks alot for your answer. Yes that was wrong BUT I didn't even came to
>>the point where including the stylesheet was of interest.
>>
>>That is because the XSP did never generate the desired XSL.  The output of
>>my XSP was just an emtpty  Tag.
>>No other elements were created. I guess it a namespace problem. What do
you
>>think?
>>
>>Robert
>>- Original Message -
>>From: "Upayavira" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>To: "Robert Sösemann" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>;
>><[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>Sent: Monday, March 03, 2003 8:03 PM
>>Subject: Re: Generate XSL with XSP?
>>
>>
>> > Robert,
>> >
>> > > 
>> >
>> > Is it as simple as changing this line to:
>> >  
>> > to allow the include to call an internal pipeline?
>> >
>> > Regards, Upayavira
>> >
>> >
>> > -
>> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> >
>>
>>
>>-
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>
>
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Re: Generate XSL with XSP?

[Robert Sösemann]

Thanks alot for your answer. Yes that was wrong BUT I didn't even came to
the point where including the stylesheet was of interest.

That is because the XSP did never generate the desired XSL.  The output of
my XSP was just an emtpty  Tag.
No other elements were created. I guess it a namespace problem. What do you
think?

Robert
- Original Message -
From: "Upayavira" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Robert Sösemann" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>;
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, March 03, 2003 8:03 PM
Subject: Re: Generate XSL with XSP?


> Robert,
>
> > 
>
> Is it as simple as changing this line to:
>  
> to allow the include to call an internal pipeline?
>
> Regards, Upayavira
>
>
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Generate XSL with XSP?

[Robert Sösemann]

For a context-sensitve basepath setting I want to do this.

1) Add dynamically generated xsl into each (sub-)sitemap:
--









2) Call and use this in every xsl which need the basepath:
-



The problem is the dynamic-basepath.xsp doesn't generate the xsl I want. In
fact it produces nothing.
WHAT HAVE I DONE WRONG
(Do I need Meta-STYLESHEETS rather than Meta-XSPs ? If so, cCan anybody tell
me how to write this?)

Here is my xsp:
---



http://apache.org/xsp";>



http://www.w3.org/1999/XSL/Transform";>

http://www.w3.org/1999/XSL/Transform"/>

http://www.w3.org/1999/XSL/Transform";>


http://www.w3.org/1999/XSL/Transform";>
request.getParameter("basepath")








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archive searchable?

[Robert Douglass]

Before I bother the list with my questions, could someone tell me if the
archives for this list are searchable or not? (URL please!) Thanks,
Robert


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Re: Problem on start !

[robert]

 I am using Tomcat 4.0.6..

Sean McKaharay wrote:

First thing Robert,
 
What server are you running on (i.e. tomcat, resin, jetty..). You need to
look that you don't have an old version of SAX parser in the lib directory of
the server. Sometimes the SAX parser it will try to use is the one in the lib
directory of the Server.
 
 

	-Original Message- 
	From: robert [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
	Sent: Wed 2/26/2003 2:11 PM 
	To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
	Cc: 
	Subject: Problem on start !
	
	

When I call the cocoon (http://localhost:8080/cocoon) I get the
follow
error:


=
message SAX2 driver class org.apache.xerces.parsers.SAXParser not
found

description java.lang.ClassNotFoundException:
org.apache.xerces.parsers.SAXParser

sender org.apache.cocoon.servlet.CocoonServlet

source Cocoon servlet


somebody can I help me ?!?!?!

Thanks..


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Problem on start !

[robert]

When I call the cocoon (http://localhost:8080/cocoon) I get the follow 
error:

=
message SAX2 driver class org.apache.xerces.parsers.SAXParser not found
description java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: 
org.apache.xerces.parsers.SAXParser

sender org.apache.cocoon.servlet.CocoonServlet

source Cocoon servlet

somebody can I help me ?!?!?!

Thanks..

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Jtidy with properties

[Robert Sösemann]

Hello,

I want to use Jtidy for beatifying the serializers html. I think coocoons
htmlserializer uses it by default. But it doenst do identation. So i need a
properites file.

Where should I place this file?
Do I need to add code to the sitemap or xconf?

Maybe you can give me example code.

Thanks in advance.

Rob.



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Re: CLI

[Robert Sösemann]

The CLI is part of the cocoon.jar, so is contained in your cocoon version.

You call it by:

BUT, it doesn't work. Noone who ever asked this list for help on the cli
received a helpful answer. The reason to my opinion is not a lack of
cooperation, but the lack of experience with the cli and the frustrating
experience when trying to test it on your own.

In short: I think CLI sucks and doens't work properly. BUT that's no
problem. There are dozens of  much better web downloader/offline browsers to
make a cocoon site static.

In our project we are using HTTrack, a wonderful open source tool. It comes
with a Window gui and a fully blown command line - much better that the
cocoon cli. Download at www.httrack.com/

I hope I could help.

Robert


- Original Message -
From: "Ines Robbers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Cocoon Mailingliste" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, February 17, 2003 5:23 PM
Subject: CLI


> Hello!
>
> I'm trying to understand the command-line interface of Cocoon -
> unfortunately without much success so far.
> The Cocoon version I'm using is 2.0.4. Where do I find the java.class
> that starts the CLI? Do I have to download anything?
> Is it correct that once the class has started I type in:
>
> java -jar cocoon.jar -c  (as an example)
>
> to start with whatever I intend to do?
>
> Many thanks for help!
>
> Ines
>
>
>
> -
> Please check that your question  has not already been answered in the
> FAQ before posting. <http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/faq/index.html>
>
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> For additional commands, e-mail:   <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>


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Re: XMLForm Wizard alternative?

[Robert Sösemann]

That would be great. Could you send the file to this adress
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Thanks a lot, Robert
- Original Message -
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, February 14, 2003 1:47 PM
Subject: Re: XMLForm Wizard alternative?


Hi there

I do not know if anyone else has done it - but I was so impressed with
xmlform that I took the 2.1 code and hacked it a bit to compile and run on
cocoon 2.0.4 - it's working for me - and I can create a source jar file
and such for creating a cocoon-xmlform-2.0.4.jar file to put into
WEB-INF/lib for cocoon-2.0.4 users that would like to play around with
xmlform.

If it has your interest send me a mail.

Regards Jakob

Jakob Dalsgaard
Udvikler
e-mail:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Vesterbrogade 149
1620 København V
Tlf.:   70 25 80 30
Fax.: 70 25 80 31






"Konstantin Piroumian" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12/18/02 01:39 PM
Please respond to cocoon-users


To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
cc:
Subject:Re: XMLForm Wizard alternative?


From: "Robert Sösemann" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

> Hy,
>
> in our project (CMS) we want to easily generate input fields in a
> wizard-like interface. It is later used by authors to put different
types
of
> articles into a database.
>
> As different types of articles have other information needs, we want to
> provide the user with form field that represent that needs of the
specific
> article. So we need a mechanism to generate steps of our wizard (namely
page
> with form fields) from centralized information (great would be the db)
>
> As this XMLWizard mechanism is only available from a cocoon beta, we are
not
> allowed to use it. Can you imagine an alternative way to solve this?

You can simply use the XMLForm's syntax for form representation and use a
custom action to generate the next step for you. To customize the forms
you
can either use XSP or a special transformer.

Konstantin

>
> Thanks in advance,
> Robert
>
>
> -
> Please check that your question  has not already been answered in the
> FAQ before posting. <http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/faq/index.html>
>
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> For additional commands, e-mail:   <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
>


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Re: Too much java in xsp

[Robert Simmons]

Probably a generator actually. Use generators for things that are more
complex. XSP should be used, IMHO, only for generation with small amounts of
code.

-- Robert

- Original Message -
From: "Lionel Crine" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, February 12, 2003 5:40 PM
Subject: Too much java in xsp


> I'm using an xsp in which I manipulate some code ( parameters,
> for example).
>
> But unfortunately, There is too much code java in it and so the xsp is very
> HUGE.
>
> I was thinking about using an action in the sitemap to modify my document
> instead of java code in the xsp, is it a good idea ?
>
> am I on the right way ?
>
>
> -
> Please check that your question  has not already been answered in the
> FAQ before posting. <http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/faq/index.html>
>
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> For additional commands, e-mail:   <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>


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Re: How to load Cocoon into Eclipse-Tomcat plugin from Sysdeo

[Robert Simmons]

If you add the following Java options to the line that runs tomcat:

-Xint -Xdebug -Xrunjdwp:transport=dt_socket,server=y,address=12999,suspend=n

Then you can attach to tomcat using elicpse at the socket  12999. How to
attach eclipse specifically is somethign I dont know. I use NetBeans because
it is a far better product. However I think even eclipse will do this just
fine.

-- Robert

- Original Message -
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, February 12, 2003 11:23 AM
Subject: RE: How to load Cocoon into Eclipse-Tomcat plugin from Sysdeo


Hi Robert,

I want to use the Eclipse debugger. I dont' if it is JPD compatible but I
think...

In Eclipse, how do you attach Tomcat remotely?

Thanks
Regards
Sylvain


-Message d'origine-
De: Robert Simmons [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Date: mardi, 11. février 2003 21:55
À: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Objet: Re: How to load Cocoon into Eclipse-Tomcat plugin from Sysdeo


Debugging is easy if you have a JPD compatible debugger. Look at the Java
documentation on the "Java" command for info on how to run tomcat in debug
mode and then attach to it remotely. I use this technique with JBoss all the
time.

-- Robert

- Original Message -
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2003 2:03 PM
Subject: RE: How to load Cocoon into Eclipse-Tomcat plugin from Sysdeo


Martin,

You said that you run Tomcat out of Eclipse. So you don't need a /WEB-INF
directory in your Eclipse project, right?
The Tomcat Eclipse runs Tomcat inside Eclipse. What is exactly the difference
between outside and inside?

To start/stop (outside) Tomcat from Eclipse, what do you change in
windows/Preferences?

At this time I don't want to develop components but I would like to debug the
existing components. Would be better to create Java project?


Thanks again
Best.
Sylvain



-Message d'origine-
De: Martin Dulisch [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Date: mardi, 11. février 2003 10:16
À: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Objet: Re: How to load Cocoon into Eclipse-Tomcat plugin from Sysdeo


Sylvain,

I use the tomcat plug-in "only" to start/stop tomcat out of eclipse. I
dont use the tomcat project type.

If you want to develop java components like actions or transformers
than create a java project. If you do not develop java components than
you can create a simple project. The project folder should be in both
cases the tomcat/webapps/cocoon folder.

Java Build Path settings (Properties of the project):
- Build output folder: WEB-INF/classes
- Libraries: add libs from WEB-INF/lib you need to compile

To start/stop tomcat set the tomcat path in Windows/Preferences. The
tomcat plug-in starts tomcat in debug mode. So you can set breakpoints
in your source files. I use tomcat 4.1.X. Here hot code replacement
works for me.

For the non java work I use the sunBow plug-in :)

Hope I did not have forget anything.

Martin





- Original Message -
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2003 9:47 AM
Subject: RE: How to load Cocoon into Eclipse-Tomcat plugin from Sysdeo


Hi Martin,

I want to develop application like you. And I have installed this
Tomcat plugin to debug my app and the Cocoon sources. I don't want to
"work" at the Cocoon sources, only understand how it works for
debugging.

Yes please. A description of your environment in Eclipse would be
greatly appreciated.

Thank you very much
Regards
Sylvain

-Message d'origine-
De: Martin Dulisch [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Date: mardi, 11. février 2003 09:23
À: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Objet: Re: How to load Cocoon into Eclipse-Tomcat plugin from Sysdeo


Hi Sylvain,

what do you want to do with this project? Application development with
cocoon or do you want to work at the cocoon sources?

I do the first one. If you want to do the same I could describe my
environment in eclipse.

Martin

- Original Message -
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, February 10, 2003 4:55 PM
Subject: How to load Cocoon into Eclipse-Tomcat plugin from Sysdeo


Is there someone that could explain me how to load Cocoon into a
Tomcat project in Eclipse?
This type of project comes from the Sysdeo plugin which allow to run
Tomcat into Eclipse.

Thanks
Regards
Sylvain

-
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FAQ before posting. <http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/faq/index.html>

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Re: xsp util and file contents

[Robert Simmons]

XSP is just XML. Just write a transformer that copies the XML into the XSP
file. Run this transformer before you run the XSP transformer in the sitemap
and viola, problem solved.

Hmm, I'm starting to get the hang of this thing  scary.

-- Robert

- Original Message -
From: "Leszek Gawron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2003 10:33 PM
Subject: Re: xsp util and file contents


> On wto, lut 11, 2003 at 09:13:08 -, Tom Place wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > I'm trying to insert xml into my xsp, this xml is for navigation
> > purposes so ideally I would like to use one navigation file in many
> > different xsp documents.
> Apart from your problem : why don't you use aggregation?
> ouzo
> --
> __
>  | /  \ |Leszek Gawron//  \\
> \_\\  //_/  [EMAIL PROTECTED]  _\\()//_
>  .'/()\'. Phone: +48(600)341118 / //  \\ \
>   \\  //  recursive: adj; see recursive  | \__/ |
>
>
> -
> Please check that your question  has not already been answered in the
> FAQ before posting. <http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/faq/index.html>
>
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> For additional commands, e-mail:   <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>


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Jobs in the UK

[Robert Simmons]

Search for XML and XSLT in the UK job board 
revealed 55 positions!!! Check them out if you are contemplating speaking 
Brit for a while. 
 
http://www.theitjobboard.com/searchresults.php?keywords=XML+xslt&type=0&location%5B%5D=999&days=0
 
-- Robert

Re: How to load Cocoon into Eclipse-Tomcat plugin from Sysdeo

[Robert Simmons]

Debugging is easy if you have a JPD compatible debugger. Look at the Java
documentation on the "Java" command for info on how to run tomcat in debug
mode and then attach to it remotely. I use this technique with JBoss all the
time.

-- Robert

- Original Message -
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2003 2:03 PM
Subject: RE: How to load Cocoon into Eclipse-Tomcat plugin from Sysdeo


Martin,

You said that you run Tomcat out of Eclipse. So you don't need a /WEB-INF
directory in your Eclipse project, right?
The Tomcat Eclipse runs Tomcat inside Eclipse. What is exactly the difference
between outside and inside?

To start/stop (outside) Tomcat from Eclipse, what do you change in
windows/Preferences?

At this time I don't want to develop components but I would like to debug the
existing components. Would be better to create Java project?


Thanks again
Best.
Sylvain



-Message d'origine-
De: Martin Dulisch [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Date: mardi, 11. février 2003 10:16
À: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Objet: Re: How to load Cocoon into Eclipse-Tomcat plugin from Sysdeo


Sylvain,

I use the tomcat plug-in "only" to start/stop tomcat out of eclipse. I
dont use the tomcat project type.

If you want to develop java components like actions or transformers
than create a java project. If you do not develop java components than
you can create a simple project. The project folder should be in both
cases the tomcat/webapps/cocoon folder.

Java Build Path settings (Properties of the project):
- Build output folder: WEB-INF/classes
- Libraries: add libs from WEB-INF/lib you need to compile

To start/stop tomcat set the tomcat path in Windows/Preferences. The
tomcat plug-in starts tomcat in debug mode. So you can set breakpoints
in your source files. I use tomcat 4.1.X. Here hot code replacement
works for me.

For the non java work I use the sunBow plug-in :)

Hope I did not have forget anything.

Martin





- Original Message -
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2003 9:47 AM
Subject: RE: How to load Cocoon into Eclipse-Tomcat plugin from Sysdeo


Hi Martin,

I want to develop application like you. And I have installed this
Tomcat plugin to debug my app and the Cocoon sources. I don't want to
"work" at the Cocoon sources, only understand how it works for
debugging.

Yes please. A description of your environment in Eclipse would be
greatly appreciated.

Thank you very much
Regards
Sylvain

-Message d'origine-
De: Martin Dulisch [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Date: mardi, 11. février 2003 09:23
À: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Objet: Re: How to load Cocoon into Eclipse-Tomcat plugin from Sysdeo


Hi Sylvain,

what do you want to do with this project? Application development with
cocoon or do you want to work at the cocoon sources?

I do the first one. If you want to do the same I could describe my
environment in eclipse.

Martin

- Original Message -
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, February 10, 2003 4:55 PM
Subject: How to load Cocoon into Eclipse-Tomcat plugin from Sysdeo


Is there someone that could explain me how to load Cocoon into a
Tomcat project in Eclipse?
This type of project comes from the Sysdeo plugin which allow to run
Tomcat into Eclipse.

Thanks
Regards
Sylvain

-
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FAQ before posting. <http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/faq/index.html>

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Re: A note about the "best(?) (cocoon-) development environment" ...

[Robert Simmons]

NetBeans at www.netbeans.org has these features in its XML editor.

-- Robert

- Original Message -
From: "Rob Hoopman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2003 12:43 PM
Subject: Re: A note about the "best(?) (cocoon-) development environment" ...


> SAXESS - Hussayn Dabbous wrote:
>
> 
>
> > 5.) eclipse
> > 6.) sunbow eclipse tools (xml/sitemap)
>
> 
>
> I'm currently evaluating oxygen (http://www.oxygenxml.com), it has
> tag-closing DTD/Schema aware tag insert and XSLT transformation
> functionality and so far I'm impressed by it.
>
> Do any of you know any other editors that support similar functionality?
> I'm tempted to spring the USD 65 (USD 25 academic)  when my evaluation
> expires, but there might be something better out there?
>
>
> Regards.
>
> Rob
>
>
>
> -
> Please check that your question  has not already been answered in the
> FAQ before posting. <http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/faq/index.html>
>
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> For additional commands, e-mail:   <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>


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context not found by CLI

[Robert Sösemann]

Hallo listmembers,

I am using the Cocoon command line to generate static pages from my site. I
was not successful with that, because
every time an action which uses the "ObjectModelHelper.getContext(" method
throws an Exception. (see below)

This ONLY happens during the uses of the CLI, not when I use cocoon through
Tomcat.

...
Context context = ObjectModelHelper.getContext(objectModel);  <--
NulPointerException thrown here
context.setAttribute("oberrubrik",  oberrubrik);


Here is the batch file which calls the command line of cocoon.

set
CLASSPATH=C:\PROGRA~2\J2SDK1~1.0\jre\lib\rt.jar;C:\PROGRA~2\TOMCAT~1.1\commo
n\lib\tools.jar;C:\PROGRA~2\TOMCAT~1.1\common\lib\servlet.jar;C:\PROGRA~2\TO
MCAT~1.1\webapps\development\WEB-INF\classes\
cd web-inf\lib
subst z: .
set CLASSPATH=%CLASSPATH%;z:\avalon-excalibur-vm14-20020705.jar
..all other jarsfrom WEB-INF/lib...
set CLASSPATH=%CLASSPATH%;z:\xt-19991105.jar
cd ..\..\..
subst y: .
cd development

java org.apache.cocoon.Main
-cC:/PROGRA~2/TOMCAT~1.1/webapps/development
-dy:/static/
-uWARN
-wy:/work/
-Cy:/development/WEB-INF/cocoon.xconf index.html

subst z: /D
subst y: /D

Do you see any errors that could cause this exception?

Robert



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Javadoc in XML Format?

[Robert Simmons]

Greetings, I have been looking for a doclet 
that will create Javadoc API documentation but in XML format. This could then be 
used with cocoon to give far mroe control over rendering javadoc. I have looked 
through the internet and it appears Apache had a project on it at one time but 
now i cant find any links to it. Anyone know where i could find such an animal? 
The default HTML Javadoc is such a drag. =) 
 
 
-- Robert

Re: A note about the "best(?) (cocoon-) development environment" ...

[Robert Simmons]

Well, I don't want to debate JDO vs. ODMG object mapping. I use JDO as will a
very large amount of other people. Don't judge it when you know little about
it. As for the query language, it blasts any other object based query
language to hell. As for CMP and BMP, you can toss those out the window.
Entity beans are the one blemish to EJB in my opinion. They are poorly
thought out and poorly implemented. In short, all entity beans are basically
crap.

-- Robert

- Original Message -
From: "Thor Heinrichs-Wolpert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, February 10, 2003 2:25 AM
Subject: Re: A note about the "best(?) (cocoon-) development environment" ...


I'm familiar with BCEL and have used it to speed up JMX and reflection
based applications.
I haven't found the ODMG way to be very slow.  Are we comparing specs
to tools?  Most things can auto-deploy schemas, but very few of my
clients will use such a feature.
We've used several ODMG based solutions to take advantage of a
particular vendors enhancements, or J2C connectors.  I can say that in
the past my team of 3 have used these techniques to deliver
maintainable, workable solutions very quickly.

If you're persisting classes that you don't have control over, nor
access to the class files (don't you need access to manipulate them?)
then I'd be worried about version management and coupling.

But, I'll have another look.  Last thing, it's too bad that with JDO
they have introduced 3 query languages, rather than have one that works
for JDO, CMP-EJB, etc.

Cheers,
Thor HW

On Sunday, February 9, 2003, at 04:56  PM, Robert Simmons wrote:

> Yes. That is part of the specification. The enhancement is to byte
> code, not
> to native versions of the code. Therefore any JVM can read the enhanced
> files. You might look at Jakarta's BCEL project to get an idea about
> how byte
> code enhancement works.
>
> As for the ODMG vs. byte code enhancement, Id have to disagree. The
> thing I
> want out of a persistence project is a fire and forget solution. As a
> consultant, I don't get paid for providing persistence solutions. I
> get paid
> for working on what makes my clients money. Be that web purchasing or
> genetic
> engineering. I am far better off having solutions where I need to
> invest only
> small amounts of thought in how to persist data and do object to
> relational
> mapping.
>
> In addition, there are instances, many of them, where you have neither
> control of the data that needs to be stored, nor access to the class
> files
> defining these data objects. At which point the JDO approach is far
> superior.
> Lastly the JDO approach provides the ability to reverse engineer
> schemas into
> the cross JDO vendor portable JDO metadeta files. This gives enormous
> power
> when working with legacy databases.
>
> -- Robert
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Thor Heinrichs-Wolpert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Monday, February 10, 2003 1:37 AM
> Subject: Re: A note about the "best(?) (cocoon-) development
> environment" ...
>
>
> Have you found that it works well for you across JVM versions and
> implementations?  The ODMG JDO works everywhere.
>
> On Sunday, February 9, 2003, at 05:22  AM, Robert Simmons wrote:
>
>> Point of correction. Class enhancement is not generation per se. The
>> actual
>> class files are enhanced in place. In other words the byte code
>> enhancers go
>> into the class files and alter them. The solution elegantly solves
>> some nasty
>> problems.
>>
>> -- Robert
>>
>> - Original Message -
>> From: "Robert Simmons" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Sent: Saturday, February 08, 2003 10:59 PM
>> Subject: Re: A note about the "best(?) (cocoon-) development
>> environment" ...
>>
>>
>>> Sun JDO JSR-12.
>>>
>>>
>>> - Original Message -
>>> From: "Thor Heinrichs-Wolpert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>> Sent: Saturday, February 08, 2003 10:22 PM
>>> Subject: Re: A note about the "best(?) (cocoon-) development
>>> environment"
>> ...
>>>
>>>
>>> Which JDO?  The ODMG JDO (like what Castor uses) or the after class
>>> generation muck about that is in the Sun JDO?
>>>
>>> Jetty has been using JMX long before Tomcat, it fully supports the
>>> spec
>>> ... and I'm thinking it supports it before the reference
>>> implementation
>>> does 

Re: A note about the "best(?) (cocoon-) development environment" ...

[Robert Simmons]

Yes. That is part of the specification. The enhancement is to byte code, not
to native versions of the code. Therefore any JVM can read the enhanced
files. You might look at Jakarta's BCEL project to get an idea about how byte
code enhancement works.

As for the ODMG vs. byte code enhancement, Id have to disagree. The thing I
want out of a persistence project is a fire and forget solution. As a
consultant, I don't get paid for providing persistence solutions. I get paid
for working on what makes my clients money. Be that web purchasing or genetic
engineering. I am far better off having solutions where I need to invest only
small amounts of thought in how to persist data and do object to relational
mapping.

In addition, there are instances, many of them, where you have neither
control of the data that needs to be stored, nor access to the class files
defining these data objects. At which point the JDO approach is far superior.
Lastly the JDO approach provides the ability to reverse engineer schemas into
the cross JDO vendor portable JDO metadeta files. This gives enormous power
when working with legacy databases.

-- Robert

- Original Message -
From: "Thor Heinrichs-Wolpert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, February 10, 2003 1:37 AM
Subject: Re: A note about the "best(?) (cocoon-) development environment" ...


Have you found that it works well for you across JVM versions and
implementations?  The ODMG JDO works everywhere.

On Sunday, February 9, 2003, at 05:22  AM, Robert Simmons wrote:

> Point of correction. Class enhancement is not generation per se. The
> actual
> class files are enhanced in place. In other words the byte code
> enhancers go
> into the class files and alter them. The solution elegantly solves
> some nasty
> problems.
>
> -- Robert
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Robert Simmons" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Saturday, February 08, 2003 10:59 PM
> Subject: Re: A note about the "best(?) (cocoon-) development
> environment" ...
>
>
>> Sun JDO JSR-12.
>>
>>
>> - Original Message -
>> From: "Thor Heinrichs-Wolpert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Sent: Saturday, February 08, 2003 10:22 PM
>> Subject: Re: A note about the "best(?) (cocoon-) development
>> environment"
> ...
>>
>>
>> Which JDO?  The ODMG JDO (like what Castor uses) or the after class
>> generation muck about that is in the Sun JDO?
>>
>> Jetty has been using JMX long before Tomcat, it fully supports the
>> spec
>> ... and I'm thinking it supports it before the reference
>> implementation
>> does (like the classpath stuff).  Is it superior, I can't say for sure
>> (but it is the default / preferred servlet engine in JBoss.  I like it
>> because it takes me less screwing around with jar clashes between
>> applications and what the server itself uses (making me less dependent
>> on their support cycle and changes in where the JDK wants things).
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Thor HW
>>
>> On Saturday, February 8, 2003, at 01:05  PM, Robert Simmons wrote:
>>
>>> I use JBoss but not jetty. Are you saying the Jetty-JBoss combo is
>>> superior
>>> to the Tomcat-JBoss combo? If so, I will definitely go try it.
>>> Perhaps
>>> it
>>> will fix my classpath in XSP issue. Bugzilla Reference:
>>> http://nagoya.apache.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=16580.
>>>
>>> Kodo JDO is an implementation of the JDO specification and MORE. It
>>> basically
>>> rules. Go through the tutorials and you will love it. Create an
>>> object
>>> model
>>> using your favorite problem domain. Then create the JDO mapping file
>>> (raw XML
>>> or with IDE plug-in) and then just say "uhh, make a schema for me"
>>> and
>>> it
>>> just does it. Its amazing! No more screwing around with persistence
>>> and
>>> schema manipulation.
>>>
>>> I have the commercial version of that product and will be talking
>>> about using
>>> it in the book that I am writing.
>>>
>>> -- Robert
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> - Original Message -
>>> From: "Thor Heinrichs-Wolpert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>> Sent: Saturday, February 08, 2003 9:47 PM
>>> Subject: Re: A note about the "best(?) (cocoon-) development
>>> environment" ...
>>>
>>>
>>> Robert:
>>>

Re: A note about the "best(?) (cocoon-) development environment" ...

[Robert Simmons]

Point of correction. Class enhancement is not generation per se. The actual
class files are enhanced in place. In other words the byte code enhancers go
into the class files and alter them. The solution elegantly solves some nasty
problems.

-- Robert

- Original Message -
From: "Robert Simmons" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, February 08, 2003 10:59 PM
Subject: Re: A note about the "best(?) (cocoon-) development environment" ...


> Sun JDO JSR-12.
>
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Thor Heinrichs-Wolpert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Saturday, February 08, 2003 10:22 PM
> Subject: Re: A note about the "best(?) (cocoon-) development environment"
...
>
>
> Which JDO?  The ODMG JDO (like what Castor uses) or the after class
> generation muck about that is in the Sun JDO?
>
> Jetty has been using JMX long before Tomcat, it fully supports the spec
> ... and I'm thinking it supports it before the reference implementation
> does (like the classpath stuff).  Is it superior, I can't say for sure
> (but it is the default / preferred servlet engine in JBoss.  I like it
> because it takes me less screwing around with jar clashes between
> applications and what the server itself uses (making me less dependent
> on their support cycle and changes in where the JDK wants things).
>
> Cheers,
> Thor HW
>
> On Saturday, February 8, 2003, at 01:05  PM, Robert Simmons wrote:
>
> > I use JBoss but not jetty. Are you saying the Jetty-JBoss combo is
> > superior
> > to the Tomcat-JBoss combo? If so, I will definitely go try it. Perhaps
> > it
> > will fix my classpath in XSP issue. Bugzilla Reference:
> > http://nagoya.apache.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=16580.
> >
> > Kodo JDO is an implementation of the JDO specification and MORE. It
> > basically
> > rules. Go through the tutorials and you will love it. Create an object
> > model
> > using your favorite problem domain. Then create the JDO mapping file
> > (raw XML
> > or with IDE plug-in) and then just say "uhh, make a schema for me" and
> > it
> > just does it. Its amazing! No more screwing around with persistence and
> > schema manipulation.
> >
> > I have the commercial version of that product and will be talking
> > about using
> > it in the book that I am writing.
> >
> > -- Robert
> >
> >
> >
> > - Original Message -
> > From: "Thor Heinrichs-Wolpert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Saturday, February 08, 2003 9:47 PM
> > Subject: Re: A note about the "best(?) (cocoon-) development
> > environment" ...
> >
> >
> > Robert:
> >
> > Have a look at Jetty, or JBoss/Jetty (aka JBossWeb).  No nasty "must
> > copy things to endorsed directories, etc.)".  You take Cocoon (2.0/2.1)
> > and drop it in your deploy directory and POOF it's there.  It's nice
> > when the servlet engine actually uses the libs you define and not its
> > own first as the default ... isn't that in the spec ... and will be
> > available in Tomcat at some point.
> >
> > If you want any extra libs in cocoon-2.1 you add them in the lib tree,
> > add them to jars.xml and the cocoon build adds them to the Manifest ...
> > Jetty/Jboss just eats 'em up in the right place.
> >
> > I'm off to look for Kudo JDO (which hopefully follows the ODMG JDO and
> > not Sun's) ... how does this rank against Castor or Jakarta-OJB ?
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Thor HW
> >
> > On Saturday, February 8, 2003, at 11:42  AM, Robert Simmons wrote:
> >
> >>> Hy, all;
> >>>
> >>> During the last months of activities i learned a lot from this
> >>> mailing
> >>> list. while i followed the discussions i started getting my
> >>> development
> >>> environment a bit up to date.  I plan to setup a Wiki page on this
> >>> theme. Although this may be a bit off topic, it still would be great,
> >>> if someone could comment on this issue.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> the tools collection
> >>> 
> >>> Here is what i have put together so far. Of course this is driven
> >>> at least partially by what i do for my customers...
> >>>
> >>> free tools:
> >>> 1.) OS: linux and solaris (maybe a mater of taste)
> >>
> >> Go linux. Instead of spending money on lice

Re: A note about the "best(?) (cocoon-) development environment" ...

[Robert Simmons]

Nope. 100% pure Java specification. Give it a read. The first couple chapters
will give you a good idea of its meaning.

-- Robert

- Original Message -
From: "Niclas Hedhman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, February 09, 2003 9:30 AM
Subject: Re: A note about the "best(?) (cocoon-) development environment" ...


On Sunday 09 February 2003 05:59, Robert Simmons wrote:
> Sun JDO JSR-12.

And I thought this is a Java specific specification of the ODMG model. No?


> - Original Message -
> From: "Thor Heinrichs-Wolpert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Saturday, February 08, 2003 10:22 PM
> Subject: Re: A note about the "best(?) (cocoon-) development environment"
> ...
>
>
> Which JDO?  The ODMG JDO (like what Castor uses) or the after class
> generation muck about that is in the Sun JDO?
>
> Jetty has been using JMX long before Tomcat, it fully supports the spec
> ... and I'm thinking it supports it before the reference implementation
> does (like the classpath stuff).  Is it superior, I can't say for sure
> (but it is the default / preferred servlet engine in JBoss.  I like it
> because it takes me less screwing around with jar clashes between
> applications and what the server itself uses (making me less dependent
> on their support cycle and changes in where the JDK wants things).
>
> Cheers,
> Thor HW
>
> On Saturday, February 8, 2003, at 01:05  PM, Robert Simmons wrote:
> > I use JBoss but not jetty. Are you saying the Jetty-JBoss combo is
> > superior
> > to the Tomcat-JBoss combo? If so, I will definitely go try it. Perhaps
> > it
> > will fix my classpath in XSP issue. Bugzilla Reference:
> > http://nagoya.apache.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=16580.
> >
> > Kodo JDO is an implementation of the JDO specification and MORE. It
> > basically
> > rules. Go through the tutorials and you will love it. Create an object
> > model
> > using your favorite problem domain. Then create the JDO mapping file
> > (raw XML
> > or with IDE plug-in) and then just say "uhh, make a schema for me" and
> > it
> > just does it. Its amazing! No more screwing around with persistence and
> > schema manipulation.
> >
> > I have the commercial version of that product and will be talking
> > about using
> > it in the book that I am writing.
> >
> > -- Robert
> >
> >
> >
> > - Original Message -
> > From: "Thor Heinrichs-Wolpert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Saturday, February 08, 2003 9:47 PM
> > Subject: Re: A note about the "best(?) (cocoon-) development
> > environment" ...
> >
> >
> > Robert:
> >
> > Have a look at Jetty, or JBoss/Jetty (aka JBossWeb).  No nasty "must
> > copy things to endorsed directories, etc.)".  You take Cocoon (2.0/2.1)
> > and drop it in your deploy directory and POOF it's there.  It's nice
> > when the servlet engine actually uses the libs you define and not its
> > own first as the default ... isn't that in the spec ... and will be
> > available in Tomcat at some point.
> >
> > If you want any extra libs in cocoon-2.1 you add them in the lib tree,
> > add them to jars.xml and the cocoon build adds them to the Manifest ...
> > Jetty/Jboss just eats 'em up in the right place.
> >
> > I'm off to look for Kudo JDO (which hopefully follows the ODMG JDO and
> > not Sun's) ... how does this rank against Castor or Jakarta-OJB ?
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Thor HW
> >
> > On Saturday, February 8, 2003, at 11:42  AM, Robert Simmons wrote:
> >>> Hy, all;
> >>>
> >>> During the last months of activities i learned a lot from this
> >>> mailing
> >>> list. while i followed the discussions i started getting my
> >>> development
> >>> environment a bit up to date.  I plan to setup a Wiki page on this
> >>> theme. Although this may be a bit off topic, it still would be great,
> >>> if someone could comment on this issue.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> the tools collection
> >>> 
> >>> Here is what i have put together so far. Of course this is driven
> >>> at least partially by what i do for my customers...
> >>>
> >>> free tools:
> >>> 1.) OS: linux and solaris (maybe a mater of taste)
> >>
> >> Go linux. Instead of spending money on licenses, you sp

Re: A note about the "best(?) (cocoon-) development environment" ...

[Robert Simmons]

Sun JDO JSR-12.


- Original Message -
From: "Thor Heinrichs-Wolpert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, February 08, 2003 10:22 PM
Subject: Re: A note about the "best(?) (cocoon-) development environment" ...


Which JDO?  The ODMG JDO (like what Castor uses) or the after class
generation muck about that is in the Sun JDO?

Jetty has been using JMX long before Tomcat, it fully supports the spec
... and I'm thinking it supports it before the reference implementation
does (like the classpath stuff).  Is it superior, I can't say for sure
(but it is the default / preferred servlet engine in JBoss.  I like it
because it takes me less screwing around with jar clashes between
applications and what the server itself uses (making me less dependent
on their support cycle and changes in where the JDK wants things).

Cheers,
Thor HW

On Saturday, February 8, 2003, at 01:05  PM, Robert Simmons wrote:

> I use JBoss but not jetty. Are you saying the Jetty-JBoss combo is
> superior
> to the Tomcat-JBoss combo? If so, I will definitely go try it. Perhaps
> it
> will fix my classpath in XSP issue. Bugzilla Reference:
> http://nagoya.apache.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=16580.
>
> Kodo JDO is an implementation of the JDO specification and MORE. It
> basically
> rules. Go through the tutorials and you will love it. Create an object
> model
> using your favorite problem domain. Then create the JDO mapping file
> (raw XML
> or with IDE plug-in) and then just say "uhh, make a schema for me" and
> it
> just does it. Its amazing! No more screwing around with persistence and
> schema manipulation.
>
> I have the commercial version of that product and will be talking
> about using
> it in the book that I am writing.
>
> -- Robert
>
>
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Thor Heinrichs-Wolpert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Saturday, February 08, 2003 9:47 PM
> Subject: Re: A note about the "best(?) (cocoon-) development
> environment" ...
>
>
> Robert:
>
> Have a look at Jetty, or JBoss/Jetty (aka JBossWeb).  No nasty "must
> copy things to endorsed directories, etc.)".  You take Cocoon (2.0/2.1)
> and drop it in your deploy directory and POOF it's there.  It's nice
> when the servlet engine actually uses the libs you define and not its
> own first as the default ... isn't that in the spec ... and will be
> available in Tomcat at some point.
>
> If you want any extra libs in cocoon-2.1 you add them in the lib tree,
> add them to jars.xml and the cocoon build adds them to the Manifest ...
> Jetty/Jboss just eats 'em up in the right place.
>
> I'm off to look for Kudo JDO (which hopefully follows the ODMG JDO and
> not Sun's) ... how does this rank against Castor or Jakarta-OJB ?
>
> Cheers,
> Thor HW
>
> On Saturday, February 8, 2003, at 11:42  AM, Robert Simmons wrote:
>
>>> Hy, all;
>>>
>>> During the last months of activities i learned a lot from this
>>> mailing
>>> list. while i followed the discussions i started getting my
>>> development
>>> environment a bit up to date.  I plan to setup a Wiki page on this
>>> theme. Although this may be a bit off topic, it still would be great,
>>> if someone could comment on this issue.
>>>
>>>
>>> the tools collection
>>> 
>>> Here is what i have put together so far. Of course this is driven
>>> at least partially by what i do for my customers...
>>>
>>> free tools:
>>> 1.) OS: linux and solaris (maybe a mater of taste)
>>
>> Go linux. Instead of spending money on licenses, you spend money on
>> support
>> contracts. Cheaper. In addition, Solaris is primitive compared to
>> Linux.
>>
>>> 2.) apache 1.3.26 (mod_jk2, mod_SSL)
>>
>> Duh ;)
>>
>>> 3.) tomcat 4.1.18
>>
>> Yes, but you can go one step further. Get JBoss with integrated
>> tomcat. JBoss
>> will handle all sorty of nasty things like deploying to clusters for
>> you. As
>> a bonus, you get the ability to integrate with EJB based programs.
>>
>>> 4.) cocoon-2.0.4
>>
>> 2.1 Hopefully soon!
>>
>>> 5.) eclipse
>>
>> See my previous message about eclopse vs netbeans.
>>
>>> 6.) sunbow eclipse tools (xml/sitemap)
>>
>> URL ?
>>
>>> 7.) ant
>>
>> I have 15 million of them in my damn appartment, want a few? Oh ...
>> you mean
>> Jakarta ant? Ok, nevermind then. =) Im currently looking at Kr

Re: A note about the "best(?) (cocoon-) development environment" ...

[Robert Simmons]

I use JBoss but not jetty. Are you saying the Jetty-JBoss combo is superior
to the Tomcat-JBoss combo? If so, I will definitely go try it. Perhaps it
will fix my classpath in XSP issue. Bugzilla Reference:
http://nagoya.apache.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=16580.

Kodo JDO is an implementation of the JDO specification and MORE. It basically
rules. Go through the tutorials and you will love it. Create an object model
using your favorite problem domain. Then create the JDO mapping file (raw XML
or with IDE plug-in) and then just say "uhh, make a schema for me" and it
just does it. Its amazing! No more screwing around with persistence and
schema manipulation.

I have the commercial version of that product and will be talking about using
it in the book that I am writing.

-- Robert



- Original Message -
From: "Thor Heinrichs-Wolpert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, February 08, 2003 9:47 PM
Subject: Re: A note about the "best(?) (cocoon-) development environment" ...


Robert:

Have a look at Jetty, or JBoss/Jetty (aka JBossWeb).  No nasty "must
copy things to endorsed directories, etc.)".  You take Cocoon (2.0/2.1)
and drop it in your deploy directory and POOF it's there.  It's nice
when the servlet engine actually uses the libs you define and not its
own first as the default ... isn't that in the spec ... and will be
available in Tomcat at some point.

If you want any extra libs in cocoon-2.1 you add them in the lib tree,
add them to jars.xml and the cocoon build adds them to the Manifest ...
Jetty/Jboss just eats 'em up in the right place.

I'm off to look for Kudo JDO (which hopefully follows the ODMG JDO and
not Sun's) ... how does this rank against Castor or Jakarta-OJB ?

Cheers,
Thor HW

On Saturday, February 8, 2003, at 11:42  AM, Robert Simmons wrote:

>> Hy, all;
>>
>> During the last months of activities i learned a lot from this mailing
>> list. while i followed the discussions i started getting my
>> development
>> environment a bit up to date.  I plan to setup a Wiki page on this
>> theme. Although this may be a bit off topic, it still would be great,
>> if someone could comment on this issue.
>>
>>
>> the tools collection
>> 
>> Here is what i have put together so far. Of course this is driven
>> at least partially by what i do for my customers...
>>
>> free tools:
>> 1.) OS: linux and solaris (maybe a mater of taste)
>
> Go linux. Instead of spending money on licenses, you spend money on
> support
> contracts. Cheaper. In addition, Solaris is primitive compared to
> Linux.
>
>> 2.) apache 1.3.26 (mod_jk2, mod_SSL)
>
> Duh ;)
>
>> 3.) tomcat 4.1.18
>
> Yes, but you can go one step further. Get JBoss with integrated
> tomcat. JBoss
> will handle all sorty of nasty things like deploying to clusters for
> you. As
> a bonus, you get the ability to integrate with EJB based programs.
>
>> 4.) cocoon-2.0.4
>
> 2.1 Hopefully soon!
>
>> 5.) eclipse
>
> See my previous message about eclopse vs netbeans.
>
>> 6.) sunbow eclipse tools (xml/sitemap)
>
> URL ?
>
>> 7.) ant
>
> I have 15 million of them in my damn appartment, want a few? Oh ...
> you mean
> Jakarta ant? Ok, nevermind then. =) Im currently looking at Krysalis'
> extensions to ant. http://www.krysalis.org/centipede/quickstart.html
>
>
>> 8.) java-1.3.1 (sun JDK on all platforms)
>
> No no .. 1.4.1!! In 1.4 there are so many COOOL things that I
> couldnt
> live without anymore.
>
>> 9.) Secureway LDAP Server (i'll switch to Open LDAP soon)
>
> Im an LDAP idiot so Ill trust you there.
>
> Tools you didnt talk  about:
>
> CVS - Use it over clearcase. its powerful, free, and a pleasure to use.
> BugZilla - Great program! Lousy looking interface. We should start
> a
> project to port
> it to cocoon. =) However bugzilla is a great and free
> bugtracking system.
>
>> commercial tools:
>> 10.) clearcase cms (see below)
>
> Garbage.
>
>> 11.) xml-spy
>
> Good but confusing.
>
>> 12.) several DB-Systems
>
> all you need is Mysql baby.
>
> Ones you didnt talk about:
>
> 13) Together control center. If you can afford it, it absolutely kills
> any
> other IDE on the planet.
> 14) eXcelon Stylus Studio. A great XML editor. It has a bonus of being
> easy
> to use and allot less confusing than XML Spy.
> 15) User editors for creating static content. (FrameMaker? OpenOffice?
> Im
> still working on this one)
> 16) Kodo JDO. Dont leave home without it. All that nasty persistence
> stuff
> just goes PO

Re: A note about the "best(?) (cocoon-) development environment" ...

[Robert Simmons]

> Hy, all;
>
> During the last months of activities i learned a lot from this mailing
> list. while i followed the discussions i started getting my development
> environment a bit up to date.  I plan to setup a Wiki page on this
> theme. Although this may be a bit off topic, it still would be great,
> if someone could comment on this issue.
>
>
> the tools collection
> 
> Here is what i have put together so far. Of course this is driven
> at least partially by what i do for my customers...
>
> free tools:
> 1.) OS: linux and solaris (maybe a mater of taste)

Go linux. Instead of spending money on licenses, you spend money on support
contracts. Cheaper. In addition, Solaris is primitive compared to Linux.

> 2.) apache 1.3.26 (mod_jk2, mod_SSL)

Duh ;)

> 3.) tomcat 4.1.18

Yes, but you can go one step further. Get JBoss with integrated tomcat. JBoss
will handle all sorty of nasty things like deploying to clusters for you. As
a bonus, you get the ability to integrate with EJB based programs.

> 4.) cocoon-2.0.4

2.1 Hopefully soon!

> 5.) eclipse

See my previous message about eclopse vs netbeans.

> 6.) sunbow eclipse tools (xml/sitemap)

URL ?

> 7.) ant

I have 15 million of them in my damn appartment, want a few? Oh ... you mean
Jakarta ant? Ok, nevermind then. =) Im currently looking at Krysalis'
extensions to ant. http://www.krysalis.org/centipede/quickstart.html


> 8.) java-1.3.1 (sun JDK on all platforms)

No no .. 1.4.1!! In 1.4 there are so many COOOL things that I couldnt
live without anymore.

> 9.) Secureway LDAP Server (i'll switch to Open LDAP soon)

Im an LDAP idiot so Ill trust you there.

Tools you didnt talk  about:

CVS - Use it over clearcase. its powerful, free, and a pleasure to use.
BugZilla - Great program! Lousy looking interface. We should start a
project to port
it to cocoon. =) However bugzilla is a great and free
bugtracking system.

> commercial tools:
> 10.) clearcase cms (see below)

Garbage.

> 11.) xml-spy

Good but confusing.

> 12.) several DB-Systems

all you need is Mysql baby.

Ones you didnt talk about:

13) Together control center. If you can afford it, it absolutely kills any
other IDE on the planet.
14) eXcelon Stylus Studio. A great XML editor. It has a bonus of being easy
to use and allot less confusing than XML Spy.
15) User editors for creating static content. (FrameMaker? OpenOffice? Im
still working on this one)
16) Kodo JDO. Dont leave home without it. All that nasty persistence stuff
just goes POOOF.

>
> notes about the collection
> --
>
> * All tools mentioned above fit tightly together.
>I use apache/tomcat since about three years now.
>The above combination also works fine with SSL.
>
> * After i got eclipse setup in tomcat debugging mode,
>i could at least double my productivity.
>Thanks to the tomcat site it was a matter of seconds to
>get it up see:
>
> http://jakarta.apache.org/site/idedev-rdtomcat.html
>
> * I also managed to setup eclipse with Cocoon in less than 10
>minutes. OK, i did a lousy trick, but for debugging and
>learning how cocoon internals  work it's absolutley
>satisfying...

Shouldnt be tough, just run tomcat (or JBoss) in debug mode with a socket
attach. Then you can remote attach to the socket and you are on your way!

>
> * about SCM in general and Clearcase in particular:
>Clearcase is a quite expensive and known to be very slow
>SCM tool. On the other hand it is super easy to integrate.
>Due to exposing the data within a "virtual filesystem" you
>just don't see it from the users viewpoint (except checkin
>checkout your files).
>Having the clearcase integration kit for eclipse up and
>running comes near to a developers dream. I hope, after
>Rational has been incorporated into IBM, clearcase or a
>derivate of it will eventually find it's way into the
>ongoing eclipse efforts to build just another SCM. See
>
>  http://www.eclipse.org/technology/index.html
>  follow the link to "stellation" at the bottom of the page.
>
>Another interesting new SCM could be subversion from
>
>  http://subversion.tigris.org/ ...
>
>All of these SCM's provide directory versioning
>(something once you got it, you'll never want to miss again...)
>
> * I happen to use XML-Spy since a couple of years now.
>Maybe i just got used to it. I like it, although i have
>to pay for the license. At least it helps me getting
>my XSCHEMA's generated in no time.
>
>
> My personal SAXESS story ...
> 
> SAXESS stands for "System AXESS", just to get this clear;-)
> I write this down, mainly because i got very very satisfied
> with this especially when i compare this to what i was used
> to in former times when open source was something, nobody
> ever heard of...
>
> I'm running my webserver on some linux box and my webapps
> on solaris driven by tomcat. All of my code 

Javadoc Doclets Compatible with cocoon ?

[Robert Simmons]

Greetings. Does anyone know a Javadoc Doclet that 
puts out documentation with XML markup that would be usable within a cocoon 
distribution? Id like to set up a system where I have a bit more control over 
rendering of the Javadoc and where I can have the Javadoc auto-generated nightly 
and available by intranet on the web via XML-XSLT. 
 
-- Robert

Re: A note about the "best(?) (cocoon-) development environment" ...

[Robert Simmons]

I find eclipse to be a bit too "pushy" for my tastes. The NetBeans platform
is a bit more open. In addition the eclipse XML editor is a little primitive.
The NetBeans one at least closes tags and offers various other functionality.
Additionally the eclipse release schedule is almost wholly managed by IBM
which makes it a hit or miss thing. The last straw is the relatively limited
plug-in availability for eclipse. It took me hours just to find a site with a
full eclipse module catalog.

The only other comment I have is that I'm still searching for a content
editor for Static XML. I'm currently investigating using adobe FrameMaker.
The idea being that I would have a WYSIWYG way of editing documents that any
one of my clients could use and I could write XSLT processors to convert that
to the web format using cocoon. Right now the current XML editors are too
primitive. Usable for a programmer but for a corporate document jockey, no
chance.

-- Robert

- Original Message -
From: "SAXESS - Hussayn Dabbous" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, February 08, 2003 12:46 PM
Subject: A note about the "best(?) (cocoon-) development environment" ...


> Hy, all;
>
> During the last months of activities i learned a lot from this mailing
> list. while i followed the discussions i started getting my development
> environment a bit up to date.  I plan to setup a Wiki page on this
> theme. Although this may be a bit off topic, it still would be great,
> if someone could comment on this issue.
>
>
> the tools collection
> 
> Here is what i have put together so far. Of course this is driven
> at least partially by what i do for my customers...
>
> free tools:
> 1.) OS: linux and solaris (maybe a mater of taste)
> 2.) apache 1.3.26 (mod_jk2, mod_SSL)
> 3.) tomcat 4.1.18
> 4.) cocoon-2.0.4
> 5.) eclipse
> 6.) sunbow eclipse tools (xml/sitemap)
> 7.) ant
> 8.) java-1.3.1 (sun JDK on all platforms)
> 9.) Secureway LDAP Server (i'll switch to Open LDAP soon)
>
> commercial tools:
> 10.) clearcase cms (see below)
> 11.) xml-spy
> 12.) several DB-Systems
>
> notes about the collection
> --
>
> * All tools mentioned above fit tightly together.
>I use apache/tomcat since about three years now.
>The above combination also works fine with SSL.
>
> * After i got eclipse setup in tomcat debugging mode,
>i could at least double my productivity.
>Thanks to the tomcat site it was a matter of seconds to
>get it up see:
>
> http://jakarta.apache.org/site/idedev-rdtomcat.html
>
> * I also managed to setup eclipse with Cocoon in less than 10
>minutes. OK, i did a lousy trick, but for debugging and
>learning how cocoon internals  work it's absolutley
>satisfying...
>
> * about SCM in general and Clearcase in particular:
>Clearcase is a quite expensive and known to be very slow
>SCM tool. On the other hand it is super easy to integrate.
>Due to exposing the data within a "virtual filesystem" you
>just don't see it from the users viewpoint (except checkin
>checkout your files).
>Having the clearcase integration kit for eclipse up and
>running comes near to a developers dream. I hope, after
>Rational has been incorporated into IBM, clearcase or a
>derivate of it will eventually find it's way into the
>ongoing eclipse efforts to build just another SCM. See
>
>  http://www.eclipse.org/technology/index.html
>  follow the link to "stellation" at the bottom of the page.
>
>Another interesting new SCM could be subversion from
>
>  http://subversion.tigris.org/ ...
>
>All of these SCM's provide directory versioning
>(something once you got it, you'll never want to miss again...)
>
> * I happen to use XML-Spy since a couple of years now.
>Maybe i just got used to it. I like it, although i have
>to pay for the license. At least it helps me getting
>my XSCHEMA's generated in no time.
>
>
> My personal SAXESS story ...
> 
> SAXESS stands for "System AXESS", just to get this clear;-)
> I write this down, mainly because i got very very satisfied
> with this especially when i compare this to what i was used
> to in former times when open source was something, nobody
> ever heard of...
>
> I'm running my webserver on some linux box and my webapps
> on solaris driven by tomcat. All of my code is dropped
> into a company wide  multiplatform SCM system. I'm developing
> with the eclipse IDE right on my Desktop machine. I'm running
> Cocoon for the visualisation par

Re: status quo: cocoon with xsltc

[Robert Sösemann]

Thank your VERY much for your help. Yes, I guess it's better to stay with
Xalan.
Rob
- Original Message -
From: "Brian Johnson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, February 07, 2003 4:48 PM
Subject: Re: status quo: cocoon with xsltc


I can't find anything wrong with your stylesheets, but your problem is
almost definitely related to saxon generating error messages in your
pipeline during transformation. I can't test your setup because I don't
have the itemdata generator, so you'll have to do some stylesheet
debugging to track down the root cause. Sorry I can't give you anything
more to go on. If you're not experiencing a performance increase with
Saxon, maybe you'll be better off going back to plain old Xalan.
Brian


On Wednesday, February 5, 2003, at 04:12  PM, Robert Sösemann wrote:

> Thats the content of include-basepath.xsl
> My problems right now happen with saxon. I already said goodbye to
> xsltc ;-)
> And even saxon doesn't to be a great deal. The pages that work, are not
> faster than before.
>
> Strange, isn't it?
>
> 
>
>  xmlns:xsl="http://www.w3.org/1999/XSL/Transform";>
>
> 
> 
> /development/
> 
>
> 
> - Original Message -
> From: "Brian Johnson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2003 4:41 PM
> Subject: Re: status quo: cocoon with xsltc
>
>
> Can you also post the include-basepath.xsl? Are there any other
> messages in the sitemap or error log?
> BTW - I am pretty sure xsltc has a bug and does not handle xsl:include
> relative paths properly. This doesn't affect Saxon.
> Brian
>
>
> On Wednesday, February 5, 2003, at 10:29  AM, Robert Sösemann wrote:
>
>> Thanks for answering that quick.
>>
>> here are snippets
>>
>> sitemap:cinclude
>> 
>>
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> > src="transform/dynamic/{stylesheet-name}.xsl" type="saxon"/>
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>
>> xsl:
>> 
>> > xmlns:xsl="http://www.w3.org/1999/XSL/Transform";>
>>
>> 
>>
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>
>> 
>>
>>  
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> > href="{$basepath}{@OBERRUBRIK}/{@UNTERRUBRIK}/
>> item_{@ID}.html">> select="UEBERSCHRIFT"/>
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> > src="{$basepath}/abstractgrafik/{BILD/@SRC}" />
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>      > href="{$basepath}{@OBERRUBRIK}/{@UNTERRUBRIK}/
>> item_{@ID}.html">mehr...
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>
>> 
>>
>>> select="UEBERSCHRIFT"/>
>>> select="TEXT"/>
>>
>> ...
>>
>> - Original Message -
>> From: "Brian Johnson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2003 4:25 PM
>> Subject: Re: status quo: cocoon with xsltc
>>
>>
>> It looks like there might be a problem with your stylesheet. Can you
>> post a copy? Thanks.
>> Brian
>>
>> On Wednesday, February 5, 2003, at 10:20  AM, Robert Sösemann wrote:
>>
>>> No I am using 6.5.2. The problem is that when it comes to resolving a
>>> cinclude I get this message:
>>>
>>> STACKTRACE= org.apache.cocoon.ProcessingException: Failed to execute
>>> pipeline.: org.apache.cocoon.ProcessingException: Exception during
>>> processing of cocoon://item_50-view_ABSTRACT:
>>> javax.xml.transform.TransformerException: org.xml.sax.SAXException:
>>> Invalid
>>> processing instruction name (saxon:warning)
>>>
>>> Any ideas?
>>>
>>> Thanks for your

Re: status quo: cocoon with xsltc

[Robert Sösemann]

Thats the content of include-basepath.xsl
My problems right now happen with saxon. I already said goodbye to xsltc ;-)
And even saxon doesn't to be a great deal. The pages that work, are not
faster than before.

Strange, isn't it?



http://www.w3.org/1999/XSL/Transform";>



/development/



- Original Message -
From: "Brian Johnson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2003 4:41 PM
Subject: Re: status quo: cocoon with xsltc


Can you also post the include-basepath.xsl? Are there any other
messages in the sitemap or error log?
BTW - I am pretty sure xsltc has a bug and does not handle xsl:include
relative paths properly. This doesn't affect Saxon.
Brian


On Wednesday, February 5, 2003, at 10:29  AM, Robert Sösemann wrote:

> Thanks for answering that quick.
>
> here are snippets
>
> sitemap:cinclude
> 
>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  src="transform/dynamic/{stylesheet-name}.xsl" type="saxon"/>
> 
> 
> 
> 
>
> xsl:
> 
>  xmlns:xsl="http://www.w3.org/1999/XSL/Transform";>
>
> 
>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>
> 
>
>  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  href="{$basepath}{@OBERRUBRIK}/{@UNTERRUBRIK}/
> item_{@ID}.html"> select="UEBERSCHRIFT"/>
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  src="{$basepath}/abstractgrafik/{BILD/@SRC}" />
> 
> 
> 
> 
>   href="{$basepath}{@OBERRUBRIK}/{@UNTERRUBRIK}/
> item_{@ID}.html">mehr...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>
> 
>
> select="UEBERSCHRIFT"/>
> select="TEXT"/>
>
> ...
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Brian Johnson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2003 4:25 PM
> Subject: Re: status quo: cocoon with xsltc
>
>
> It looks like there might be a problem with your stylesheet. Can you
> post a copy? Thanks.
> Brian
>
> On Wednesday, February 5, 2003, at 10:20  AM, Robert Sösemann wrote:
>
>> No I am using 6.5.2. The problem is that when it comes to resolving a
>> cinclude I get this message:
>>
>> STACKTRACE= org.apache.cocoon.ProcessingException: Failed to execute
>> pipeline.: org.apache.cocoon.ProcessingException: Exception during
>> processing of cocoon://item_50-view_ABSTRACT:
>> javax.xml.transform.TransformerException: org.xml.sax.SAXException:
>> Invalid
>> processing instruction name (saxon:warning)
>>
>> Any ideas?
>>
>> Thanks for your help.
>> Rob
>> - Original Message -
>> From: "Brian Johnson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2003 1:24 PM
>> Subject: Re: status quo: cocoon with xsltc
>>
>>
>> I'm using the latest stable version of Saxon with no problems at all.
>> I've used it under both 2.0.x and 2.1. Are you using one of the
>> experimental releases?
>>
>> On Wednesday, February 5, 2003, at 07:14  AM, Beat De Martin wrote:
>>
>>> I'm using Saxon as well, it seems faster than Xalan. And with Xalan I
>>> always
>>> had problems with the normalize-space function.
>>> The only problem I have with Saxon is the compiling of the sitemap.
>>> I'm using Cocoon 2.0.2.
>>>
>>> Did you have the same problem comipiling the sitemap with Cocoon ?
>>> Cheers
>>> Beat De Martin
>>>
>>>> On Wed, 2003-02-05 at 20:04, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>>>>> Dear listmembers,
>>>>>
>>>>> after a frustrating night trying to use xsltc as a faster way to
>>>>> process
>>>>> xsls, browsing hundreds of archieve threads, the xsltc wiki I was
>>>>> not
>>>>> succes

Re: status quo: cocoon with xsltc

[Robert Sösemann]

Thanks for answering that quick.

here are snippets

sitemap:cinclude

















xsl:

http://www.w3.org/1999/XSL/Transform";>











 
















 mehr...







   
   
   
   
...

- Original Message -
From: "Brian Johnson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2003 4:25 PM
Subject: Re: status quo: cocoon with xsltc


It looks like there might be a problem with your stylesheet. Can you
post a copy? Thanks.
Brian

On Wednesday, February 5, 2003, at 10:20  AM, Robert Sösemann wrote:

> No I am using 6.5.2. The problem is that when it comes to resolving a
> cinclude I get this message:
>
> STACKTRACE= org.apache.cocoon.ProcessingException: Failed to execute
> pipeline.: org.apache.cocoon.ProcessingException: Exception during
> processing of cocoon://item_50-view_ABSTRACT:
> javax.xml.transform.TransformerException: org.xml.sax.SAXException:
> Invalid
> processing instruction name (saxon:warning)
>
> Any ideas?
>
> Thanks for your help.
> Rob
> - Original Message -
> From: "Brian Johnson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2003 1:24 PM
> Subject: Re: status quo: cocoon with xsltc
>
>
> I'm using the latest stable version of Saxon with no problems at all.
> I've used it under both 2.0.x and 2.1. Are you using one of the
> experimental releases?
>
> On Wednesday, February 5, 2003, at 07:14  AM, Beat De Martin wrote:
>
>> I'm using Saxon as well, it seems faster than Xalan. And with Xalan I
>> always
>> had problems with the normalize-space function.
>> The only problem I have with Saxon is the compiling of the sitemap.
>> I'm using Cocoon 2.0.2.
>>
>> Did you have the same problem comipiling the sitemap with Cocoon ?
>> Cheers
>> Beat De Martin
>>
>>> On Wed, 2003-02-05 at 20:04, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>>>> Dear listmembers,
>>>>
>>>> after a frustrating night trying to use xsltc as a faster way to
>>>> process
>>>> xsls, browsing hundreds of archieve threads, the xsltc wiki I was
>>>> not
>>>> successfull.
>>>
>>> I was able to make it work for a subset of my xslts (those that
>>> didn't
>>> use parameters).
>>>
>>>> Has anybody succesfully integrated xsltc (or any other  fast xsl
>>> compiler
>>>> into cocoon? Does anybody know about the status of integrating xsltc
>>> into
>>>> cocoon? Or maybe you can just give an alternative for speeding up
>>> transfomation.
>>>> (BUT i don't want to write custom transformers by hand)
>>>
>>> We switched our default xslt processor to saxon (the last of the 6
>>> releases) and have been very happy with it.
>>>
>>>> Your help is very welcome!
>>>>
>>>> Robert
>>>
>>> -k.
>>>
>>> --
>>> If you don't test then your code is only a collection of bugs which
>>> apparently behave like a working program.
>>>
>>> Website: http://www.rocketred.com.au/blogs/kevin/
>>>
>>>
>>> -
>>> Please check that your question  has not already been answered in the
>>> FAQ before posting. <http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/faq/index.html>
>>>
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>> For additional commands, e-mail:   <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>>
>>
>> --
>> +++ GMX - Mail, Messaging & more  http://www.gmx.net +++
>> NEU: Mit GMX ins Internet. Rund um die Uhr für 1 ct/ Min. surfen!
>>
>>
>> -
>> Please check that your question  has not already been answered in the
>> FAQ before posting. <http://xml.apache.org/c

Re: status quo: cocoon with xsltc

[Robert Sösemann]

No I am using 6.5.2. The problem is that when it comes to resolving a
cinclude I get this message:

STACKTRACE= org.apache.cocoon.ProcessingException: Failed to execute
pipeline.: org.apache.cocoon.ProcessingException: Exception during
processing of cocoon://item_50-view_ABSTRACT:
javax.xml.transform.TransformerException: org.xml.sax.SAXException: Invalid
processing instruction name (saxon:warning)

Any ideas?

Thanks for your help.
Rob
- Original Message -
From: "Brian Johnson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2003 1:24 PM
Subject: Re: status quo: cocoon with xsltc


I'm using the latest stable version of Saxon with no problems at all.
I've used it under both 2.0.x and 2.1. Are you using one of the
experimental releases?

On Wednesday, February 5, 2003, at 07:14  AM, Beat De Martin wrote:

> I'm using Saxon as well, it seems faster than Xalan. And with Xalan I
> always
> had problems with the normalize-space function.
> The only problem I have with Saxon is the compiling of the sitemap.
> I'm using Cocoon 2.0.2.
>
> Did you have the same problem comipiling the sitemap with Cocoon ?
> Cheers
> Beat De Martin
>
>> On Wed, 2003-02-05 at 20:04, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>>> Dear listmembers,
>>>
>>> after a frustrating night trying to use xsltc as a faster way to
>>> process
>>> xsls, browsing hundreds of archieve threads, the xsltc wiki I was not
>>> successfull.
>>
>> I was able to make it work for a subset of my xslts (those that didn't
>> use parameters).
>>
>>> Has anybody succesfully integrated xsltc (or any other  fast xsl
>> compiler
>>> into cocoon? Does anybody know about the status of integrating xsltc
>> into
>>> cocoon? Or maybe you can just give an alternative for speeding up
>> transfomation.
>>> (BUT i don't want to write custom transformers by hand)
>>
>> We switched our default xslt processor to saxon (the last of the 6
>> releases) and have been very happy with it.
>>
>>> Your help is very welcome!
>>>
>>> Robert
>>
>> -k.
>>
>> --
>> If you don't test then your code is only a collection of bugs which
>> apparently behave like a working program.
>>
>> Website: http://www.rocketred.com.au/blogs/kevin/
>>
>>
>> -
>> Please check that your question  has not already been answered in the
>> FAQ before posting. <http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/faq/index.html>
>>
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> For additional commands, e-mail:   <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>
>
> --
> +++ GMX - Mail, Messaging & more  http://www.gmx.net +++
> NEU: Mit GMX ins Internet. Rund um die Uhr für 1 ct/ Min. surfen!
>
>
> -
> Please check that your question  has not already been answered in the
> FAQ before posting. <http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/faq/index.html>
>
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> For additional commands, e-mail:   <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>


-
Please check that your question  has not already been answered in the
FAQ before posting. <http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/faq/index.html>

To unsubscribe, e-mail: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
For additional commands, e-mail:   <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>



-
Please check that your question  has not already been answered in the
FAQ before posting. <http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/faq/index.html>

To unsubscribe, e-mail: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
For additional commands, e-mail:   <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Re: status quo: cocoon with xsltc

[Robert Sösemann]

Would you mind send me the snippets from cocoon.xconf and sitemap to add
saxon?

Thanks ind advance.

Rob
- Original Message -
From: "Beat De Martin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2003 1:14 PM
Subject: Re: status quo: cocoon with xsltc


> I'm using Saxon as well, it seems faster than Xalan. And with Xalan I
always
> had problems with the normalize-space function.
> The only problem I have with Saxon is the compiling of the sitemap.
> I'm using Cocoon 2.0.2.
>
> Did you have the same problem comipiling the sitemap with Cocoon ?
> Cheers
> Beat De Martin
>
> > On Wed, 2003-02-05 at 20:04, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > > Dear listmembers,
> > >
> > > after a frustrating night trying to use xsltc as a faster way to
process
> > > xsls, browsing hundreds of archieve threads, the xsltc wiki I was not
> > > successfull.
> >
> > I was able to make it work for a subset of my xslts (those that didn't
> > use parameters).
> >
> > > Has anybody succesfully integrated xsltc (or any other  fast xsl
> > compiler
> > > into cocoon? Does anybody know about the status of integrating xsltc
> > into
> > > cocoon? Or maybe you can just give an alternative for speeding up
> > transfomation.
> > > (BUT i don't want to write custom transformers by hand)
> >
> > We switched our default xslt processor to saxon (the last of the 6
> > releases) and have been very happy with it.
> >
> > > Your help is very welcome!
> > >
> > > Robert
> >
> > -k.
> >
> > --
> > If you don't test then your code is only a collection of bugs which
> > apparently behave like a working program.
> >
> > Website: http://www.rocketred.com.au/blogs/kevin/
> >
> >
> > -
> > Please check that your question  has not already been answered in the
> > FAQ before posting. <http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/faq/index.html>
> >
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > For additional commands, e-mail:   <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >
>
> --
> +++ GMX - Mail, Messaging & more  http://www.gmx.net +++
> NEU: Mit GMX ins Internet. Rund um die Uhr für 1 ct/ Min. surfen!
>
>
> -
> Please check that your question  has not already been answered in the
> FAQ before posting. <http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/faq/index.html>
>
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Re: status quo: cocoon with xsltc

[Robert Sösemann]

I am using cocoon 2.0.3. And I added xsltc without removing xalan as
default. But after that nothing worked. Every request produced an emtpy
page. (no errors logged). Even after using the old sitmap it didn't work
anymore.

Right now im trying to install saxon 6. Does anybody have data on how much
faster transformation gets with saxon?

Rob
- Original Message -
From: "Brian Johnson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2003 1:22 PM
Subject: Re: status quo: cocoon with xsltc


I tried to switch to xsltc with Cocoon 2.1. After a few days of trying
to modify my stylesheets to make it happy, I finally gave up.
Transformations that worked fine under standard Xalan and Saxon would
not work under xsltc. Are you having problems configuring Cocoon to use
xsltc, or are you having problems with xsltc itself? What version of
Cocoon are you using?

On Wednesday, February 5, 2003, at 04:04  AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:

> Dear listmembers,
>
> after a frustrating night trying to use xsltc as a faster way to
> process
> xsls, browsing hundreds of archieve threads, the xsltc wiki I was not
> successfull.
>
> Has anybody succesfully integrated xsltc (or any other  fast xsl
> compiler
> into cocoon? Does anybody know about the status of integrating xsltc
> into
> cocoon? Or maybe you can just give an alternative for speeding up
> transfomation.
> (BUT i don't want to write custom transformers by hand)
>
> Your help is very welcome!
>
> Robert
>
> --
> +++ GMX - Mail, Messaging & more  http://www.gmx.net +++
> NEU: Mit GMX ins Internet. Rund um die Uhr für 1 ct/ Min. surfen!
>
>
> -
> Please check that your question  has not already been answered in the
> FAQ before posting. <http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/faq/index.html>
>
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> For additional commands, e-mail:   <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>


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status quo: cocoon with xsltc

[robert . soesemann]

Dear listmembers,

after a frustrating night trying to use xsltc as a faster way to process
xsls, browsing hundreds of archieve threads, the xsltc wiki I was not
successfull.

Has anybody succesfully integrated xsltc (or any other  fast xsl compiler
into cocoon? Does anybody know about the status of integrating xsltc into
cocoon? Or maybe you can just give an alternative for speeding up transfomation.
(BUT i don't want to write custom transformers by hand)

Your help is very welcome!

Robert

-- 
+++ GMX - Mail, Messaging & more  http://www.gmx.net +++
NEU: Mit GMX ins Internet. Rund um die Uhr für 1 ct/ Min. surfen!


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Re: [OT] RE: cocoon & struts together

[Robert Simmons]

I dislike CMP for a number of reasons. Not the least of which is that it is a
sledgehammer solution to put a thumbtack in a wall. The other reasons run a
wide spectrum and include things like lack of dynamic searches, inability to
convert objects to transient state and then back to persistent, the primary
key mechanism, having no access to the property methods and therefore not
being able to perform data validation and on and on. IMHO CMP = total
garbage. Its the one part of J2EE that is so poorly conceived that it should
just be torn out completely.

-- Robert


- Original Message -
From: "Ryan Hoegg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2003 2:37 AM
Subject: Re: [OT] RE: cocoon & struts together


> Robert Simmons wrote:
>
> >My advice to you is to use EJB and J2EE on the back end, cocoon on the web
> >end, JDO for persistence and Swing for complex clients.
> >
> >-- Robert
> >
> After your previous comments I'm surprised you aren't pushing CMP 2 over
> JDO.
>
> --
> Ryan Hoegg
> ISIS Networks
> http://www.isisnetworks.net
>
> >
> >
>
>
> -
> Please check that your question  has not already been answered in the
> FAQ before posting. <http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/faq/index.html>
>
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> For additional commands, e-mail:   <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>


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Re: [OT] RE: cocoon & struts together

[Robert Simmons]

Don't be so defensive. You cant infer anything that I didn't say. I have no
clue what you personally do. I merely commented on what I have seen others do
in some 7 years of professional consulting.

I don't advocate BMP because it doesn't take advantage of lazy loading. Its
an all or nothing approach. You either load the entire object or none of it.
If this object is a purchase order then it probably isn't a big deal. If its
a genetic research mouse that has over 300 properties including 90 sets, lazy
loading becomes IMPERATIVE. 99% of the time I just need 4 or 5 of those
attributes. Loading them all would be a waste of resources and slow things
down dramatically. JDO caching paradigm is heavily based on lazy loading.

--Robert

- Original Message -
From: "Todd Pierce" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2003 2:39 AM
Subject: RE: [OT] RE: cocoon & struts together


> Interesting set of inferences ; P
>
> "Many people whip up some struts-JSP based applications, which basically
> become servlets, and then pretend that the problems are solved. I could
list
> a thousand ways this paradigm is garbage..." - So that's what I do?
>
> "Struts is a horrible basis for business logic for a thousand reasons." -
> Where did I say I use Struts for business logic?
> "My advice to you is to use EJB and J2EE on the back end" - Right on, baby
> "Cocoon on the web" - Hmm
> "JDO for persistence"  - BMP
>
> We use Struts for controlling requests, on web-tier, application layer. We
> use templated JSPs for presentation, web-tier, presentation layer. You can
> use Cocoon for this if you like, but I think cocoon's strength is
publishing
> data.
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Robert Simmons [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Wednesday, 5 February 2003 11:49 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: [OT] RE: cocoon & struts together
>
>
> Struts is a horrible basis for business logic for a thousand reasons.
> Business logic best lives within an enterprise container and an application
> server. The basis of concurrency, fault tolerance, transaction management,
> clustering and the rest of the EJB contract make it pretty psycho to NOT
use
> it. I would NEVER EVER do anything important in any web framework, be it
> cocoon or struts. No thanks the J2EE environment is the god of business
> logic
> as cocoon is, IMHO, the god of web presentation. Cocoon should be a
CONSUMER
> of the J2EE functionality and not make any decisions whatsoever.
>
> Many people whip up some struts-JSP based applications, which basically
> become servlets, and then pretend that the problems are solved. I could
list
> a thousand ways this paradigm is garbage, but I really don't have to
because
> other books do it quite well for me.
>
> My advice to you is to use EJB and J2EE on the back end, cocoon on the web
> end, JDO for persistence and Swing for complex clients.
>
> -- Robert
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Todd Pierce" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2003 1:36 AM
> Subject: [OT] RE: cocoon & struts together
>
>
> > Re the comment "Frameworks like struts mix functionality with
> > presentation...".
> >
> > The presumption that functionality and presentation are mixed in Struts
> > needs qualification. Struts is an application framework. It's most
> valuable
> > component is the application layer. The presentation layer don't have to
> be
> > JSP/taglib. You can serve out xml for presentation if you wish, or
> (shudder)
> > even Flash.
> >
> > Reasonable separation of functionality and presentation can be achieved
> > using any framework, if you follow 2 simple rules: Rule 1 - ensure that
> the
> > application layer does not generate any presentation. Rule 2 - ensure
that
> > the presentation layer does not make any decisions. I use a tiles-based
> > template system, with screens defined in an XML doc, but y'know,
> what-ever.
> >
> > I'm not trying to sell Struts to hardened Cocoon users. I use both Cocoon
> > and Struts, but not together. Cocoon for data delivery systems, because
of
> > its fantastic separation of content and presentation, and Struts for
> > business applications simply because it's such a good application
> framework.
> > I don't believe either of these technologies should be considered to be a
> > panacaea for the ills of the web world.
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Robert Simmons [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > Sent

Re: Simple example / XML / XSLT In production

[Robert Simmons]

What exactly does this attitude serve. If you don't want people's opinion,
don't post to a public mailing list. Enough of this topic, its quite clear
that you value your sarcasm over honest answers.

-- Robert

- Original Message -
From: "Adrian Boston" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2003 2:12 AM
Subject: RE: Simple example / XML / XSLT In production


Greaaat. Thanks for saving me a couple of weeks work. I'll make a note
in my documents, "Robert said XML was OK."
It's fine to hold you responsible right?

Once again, as carefully noted in my first post:
a) not my opinion.
b) xml is cool.

If you want to comment on your xml success in your production systems,
great, otherwise, drsvp.



-Original Message-
From: Robert Simmons [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 4:44 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Simple example / XML / XSLT In production

you can have the 100k Porsche, Ill take the half a million dollar
Ferrari.

I have been doing XSL for quite a while. I'm relatively new to cocoon,
not to
XML. People that use XML for logic and programming need to have their
head
examined IMHO.

-- Robert

- Original Message -
From: "Adrian Boston" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2003 1:34 AM
Subject: RE: Simple example / XML / XSLT In production



Oh. OK. We shall see when you start programming in xml, xslt, xpath,
xthis, xthat.

Unless you're well endowed with a bushy moustache and still love disco,
I'd recommend stay away from Ferrari's. Move on up to a Porsche.


-Original Message-
From: Robert Simmons [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 4:27 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Simple example / XML / XSLT In production

Comparing JAVA to XML is roughly like comparing a outhouse to a Ferrari.
They
are two totally different things that are made to solve totally
different
problems.

-- Robert

- Original Message -
From: "Adrian Boston" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2003 1:18 AM
Subject: RE: Simple example / XML / XSLT In production


Actually, I'm comparing xml to java, not product to product. And that
was not my opinion; I've been sold on xml for some time; however my
experience has been system to system, not webby front-end.

Btw. It seems most people like mopeds.

Adrian Boston


-Original Message-
From: Robert Simmons [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 3:59 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Simple example / XML / XSLT In production

Huh? JSP has no object hierarchy. JSP is basically a way to write a
servlet
without having to implement the servlet interfaces. In short it is a
shortcut. The end result of JSP is always a servlet (one per JSP page).
XML/XSLT is a totally different paradigm.

In cocoon generators are used to deliver DATA. This data is in XML form.
There is no logic mixed into this data as is the case with JSP. Then The
XML
data is transformed (very mathematically) into content. This content can
be
HTML, another XML document such as a soap request, WML, PDF and so on.

So, as a matter of fact JSP mixes not only model and view but also model
view
AND controller. In the cocoon world the Generators and actions are
controllers. The XML is the model and the view is accomplished through
XSLT
transforms. Its the same for XSP. In this case an XSP is translated
into, not
a servlet like JSP, but a generator. So even though you write an XSP to
implement some functionality, this XSP is still going to be spitting out
XML
which must be transformed into content.

Comparing the two is like comparing a moped to a Ferrari. The cocoon way
is
CLEARLY superior for any number of project planning, resource management
and
software engineering reasons.

-- Derisor

- Original Message -
From: "Adrian Boston" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2003 12:45 AM
Subject: RE: Simple example / XML / XSLT In production



Ah, thanks for the linx.

I was debating xml, xslt versus jsp with a colleague. He noted that
although xml, xslt works well in a divided graphics/analyst/developer
big team, it eventually was scrapped for JSP. The lack of object
hierarchy and polymorphism made changes very difficult.
Can anyone provide tales of xml, xslt in a major production? (sans
company name, of course)

Thanks,

-Original Message-
From: Yves Vindevogel [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 3:31 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Simple example

Jeremy Ashton, who recently published a book on Cocoon, wrote a very
good "two
idots guide to Cocoon".  This document is still online somewhere.  I
guess
Jeremy can point it out, he's a frequent reader of 

Re: cocoon & struts together

[Robert Simmons]

It was a painful road and I'm still nursing the bruises. But ya, I see its
value.

-- Robert

- Original Message -
From: "Antonio Gallardo" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2003 1:55 AM
Subject: Re: cocoon & struts together


> Thanks for the answer. Good speach. I saw you now as a Cocoon fan! :-)
> You finally saw the light at the end of the pipeline. ;-)
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Antonio Gallardo.
>
>
>
> Robert Simmons dijo:
> > Actually I'm an EJB specialist and I don't generally work on projects
> > conducive to web interfaces. The complexity level of the stuff I do is
> > too high. (Pharmaceutical industry and genetic research). My customers
> > generally require a higher range of functionality than a web interface
> > can provide.
> >
> > That being said, I do, however, do some web work which is why I took up
> > the idea of cocoon. I use the same technique that I use for GUI
> > programming. Basically a command centric architecture. I hate to say
> > "struts is for amateurs" but it kind of is. It has low complexity and
> > thus low
> > functionality. It also has high cost in terms of content delivery and
> > maintenance costs. I personally chose to avoid all that and let Java
> > objects do all the work and let the framework just concentrate on
> > presentation. Enter cocoon.
> >
> > My programs consist of allot of specially designed generators that
> > generate pure data. Then I use XSLT to translate that into the
> > appropriate media. I also use XSLT to output the forms though I am
> > experimenting with reflexive techniques that I have used in GUI
> > applications to make generation of forms be based on reflexive command
> > analysis.
> >
> > Frameworks like struts mix functionality with presentation, which IMHO
> > is a very bad thing. Its a high maintenance cost solution with a low
> > development cost. That is the wrong way around. To be professional you
> > want high development cost and low maintenance cost. This causes your
> > feature turn around, post release, to be much faster. Since you are able
> > to react quickly to the demands of your users, your company or customers
> > win. The guy that slapped it together with low development costs may
> > make some sales coming out the door, but will bleed customers as they
> > seek more stable solutions with faster turn-around time for new features
> > and fault correction.
> >
> > I guess that is a long way of saying, "put all your work into the back
> > end." Cocoon is perfect for this because you can develop custom
> > generators to deliver data and let a web designer with a couple weeks of
> > training worry about the XSLT translation. In the meantime your valuable
> > programmer resources are implementing new features and stabilizing the
> > product.
> >
> > Well that's my opinion on the matter.
> >
> > -- Robert
> >
> >
> > - Original Message -
> > From: "Antonio Gallardo" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 11:48 PM
> > Subject: Re: cocoon & struts together
> >
> >
> >> Robert Simmons dijo:
> >> > I dont think that using struts would be useful within an efficient
> >> cocoon site. Cocoon takes another approach to web development that
> >> is, in my opinion, superior to the jsp/struts approach.
> >>
> >> Thanks for the comment. I was trying to start learning about this
> >> stuff.
> >>
> >> As a bean specialist (a book writer) what tools you recommend to
> >> manage all the beans stuff (creation, changes, etc.)
> >>
> >> Thanks for the comments.
> >>
> >> Antonio Gallardo
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> -
> >> Please check that your question  has not already been answered in the
> >> FAQ before posting. <http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/faq/index.html>
> >>
> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >> For additional commands, e-mail:   <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >>
> >
> >
> > -
> > Please check that your question  has not already been answered in the
> > FAQ before posting. <http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/faq/index.html>
> >
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > For additional commands, e-mail:   <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
>
>
>
> -
> Please check that your question  has not already been answered in the
> FAQ before posting. <http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/faq/index.html>
>
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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>


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Re: [OT] RE: cocoon & struts together

[Robert Simmons]

Struts is a horrible basis for business logic for a thousand reasons.
Business logic best lives within an enterprise container and an application
server. The basis of concurrency, fault tolerance, transaction management,
clustering and the rest of the EJB contract make it pretty psycho to NOT use
it. I would NEVER EVER do anything important in any web framework, be it
cocoon or struts. No thanks the J2EE environment is the god of business logic
as cocoon is, IMHO, the god of web presentation. Cocoon should be a CONSUMER
of the J2EE functionality and not make any decisions whatsoever.

Many people whip up some struts-JSP based applications, which basically
become servlets, and then pretend that the problems are solved. I could list
a thousand ways this paradigm is garbage, but I really don't have to because
other books do it quite well for me.

My advice to you is to use EJB and J2EE on the back end, cocoon on the web
end, JDO for persistence and Swing for complex clients.

-- Robert

- Original Message -
From: "Todd Pierce" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2003 1:36 AM
Subject: [OT] RE: cocoon & struts together


> Re the comment "Frameworks like struts mix functionality with
> presentation...".
>
> The presumption that functionality and presentation are mixed in Struts
> needs qualification. Struts is an application framework. It's most valuable
> component is the application layer. The presentation layer don't have to be
> JSP/taglib. You can serve out xml for presentation if you wish, or
(shudder)
> even Flash.
>
> Reasonable separation of functionality and presentation can be achieved
> using any framework, if you follow 2 simple rules: Rule 1 - ensure that the
> application layer does not generate any presentation. Rule 2 - ensure that
> the presentation layer does not make any decisions. I use a tiles-based
> template system, with screens defined in an XML doc, but y'know, what-ever.
>
> I'm not trying to sell Struts to hardened Cocoon users. I use both Cocoon
> and Struts, but not together. Cocoon for data delivery systems, because of
> its fantastic separation of content and presentation, and Struts for
> business applications simply because it's such a good application
framework.
> I don't believe either of these technologies should be considered to be a
> panacaea for the ills of the web world.
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Robert Simmons [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Wednesday, 5 February 2003 10:43 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: cocoon & struts together
>
>
> Actually I'm an EJB specialist and I don't generally work on projects
> conducive to web interfaces. The complexity level of the stuff I do is too
> high. (Pharmaceutical industry and genetic research). My customers
generally
> require a higher range of functionality than a web interface can provide.
>
> That being said, I do, however, do some web work which is why I took up the
> idea of cocoon. I use the same technique that I use for GUI programming.
> Basically a command centric architecture. I hate to say "struts is for
> amateurs" but it kind of is. It has low complexity and thus low
> functionality. It also has high cost in terms of content delivery and
> maintenance costs. I personally chose to avoid all that and let Java
objects
> do all the work and let the framework just concentrate on presentation.
> Enter
> cocoon.
>
> My programs consist of allot of specially designed generators that generate
> pure data. Then I use XSLT to translate that into the appropriate media. I
> also use XSLT to output the forms though I am experimenting with reflexive
> techniques that I have used in GUI applications to make generation of forms
> be based on reflexive command analysis.
>
> Frameworks like struts mix functionality with presentation, which IMHO is a
> very bad thing. Its a high maintenance cost solution with a low development
> cost. That is the wrong way around. To be professional you want high
> development cost and low maintenance cost. This causes your feature turn
> around, post release, to be much faster. Since you are able to react
quickly
> to the demands of your users, your company or customers win. The guy that
> slapped it together with low development costs may make some sales coming
> out
> the door, but will bleed customers as they seek more stable solutions with
> faster turn-around time for new features and fault correction.
>
> I guess that is a long way of saying, "put all your work into the back
end."
> Cocoon is perfect for this because you can develop custom generators to
> deliver data and let a web designer with a couple weeks of training wo

Re: Simple example / XML / XSLT In production

[Robert Simmons]

you can have the 100k Porsche, Ill take the half a million dollar Ferrari.

I have been doing XSL for quite a while. I'm relatively new to cocoon, not to
XML. People that use XML for logic and programming need to have their head
examined IMHO.

-- Robert

- Original Message -
From: "Adrian Boston" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2003 1:34 AM
Subject: RE: Simple example / XML / XSLT In production



Oh. OK. We shall see when you start programming in xml, xslt, xpath,
xthis, xthat.

Unless you're well endowed with a bushy moustache and still love disco,
I'd recommend stay away from Ferrari's. Move on up to a Porsche.


-Original Message-
From: Robert Simmons [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 4:27 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Simple example / XML / XSLT In production

Comparing JAVA to XML is roughly like comparing a outhouse to a Ferrari.
They
are two totally different things that are made to solve totally
different
problems.

-- Robert

- Original Message -
From: "Adrian Boston" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2003 1:18 AM
Subject: RE: Simple example / XML / XSLT In production


Actually, I'm comparing xml to java, not product to product. And that
was not my opinion; I've been sold on xml for some time; however my
experience has been system to system, not webby front-end.

Btw. It seems most people like mopeds.

Adrian Boston


-Original Message-
From: Robert Simmons [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 3:59 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Simple example / XML / XSLT In production

Huh? JSP has no object hierarchy. JSP is basically a way to write a
servlet
without having to implement the servlet interfaces. In short it is a
shortcut. The end result of JSP is always a servlet (one per JSP page).
XML/XSLT is a totally different paradigm.

In cocoon generators are used to deliver DATA. This data is in XML form.
There is no logic mixed into this data as is the case with JSP. Then The
XML
data is transformed (very mathematically) into content. This content can
be
HTML, another XML document such as a soap request, WML, PDF and so on.

So, as a matter of fact JSP mixes not only model and view but also model
view
AND controller. In the cocoon world the Generators and actions are
controllers. The XML is the model and the view is accomplished through
XSLT
transforms. Its the same for XSP. In this case an XSP is translated
into, not
a servlet like JSP, but a generator. So even though you write an XSP to
implement some functionality, this XSP is still going to be spitting out
XML
which must be transformed into content.

Comparing the two is like comparing a moped to a Ferrari. The cocoon way
is
CLEARLY superior for any number of project planning, resource management
and
software engineering reasons.

-- Derisor

- Original Message -
From: "Adrian Boston" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2003 12:45 AM
Subject: RE: Simple example / XML / XSLT In production



Ah, thanks for the linx.

I was debating xml, xslt versus jsp with a colleague. He noted that
although xml, xslt works well in a divided graphics/analyst/developer
big team, it eventually was scrapped for JSP. The lack of object
hierarchy and polymorphism made changes very difficult.
Can anyone provide tales of xml, xslt in a major production? (sans
company name, of course)

Thanks,

-Original Message-
From: Yves Vindevogel [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 3:31 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Simple example

Jeremy Ashton, who recently published a book on Cocoon, wrote a very
good "two
idots guide to Cocoon".  This document is still online somewhere.  I
guess
Jeremy can point it out, he's a frequent reader of this user-list.
That document gave me a lot of support and help, back in the days

> Re: Hopefully some encouragement
>
> An introductory document would prove extremely useful for the Cocoon
> cause, as it sounds great in both concept and implementation. Some of
us
> are in positions to recommend xml, xslt over the forsaken jsp, struts,
> ejb method, but cannot afford the time to master yet another complex
> st*nking framework.
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Robert Simmons [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 2:10 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: Simple example
>
> Once more ? =)
>
> Its in progress. Right now beginner documentation is a little thin.
>
> -- Robert
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Stefan Riegel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Monday, February 03, 2003 8:41 PM
> Subject: Re: Simple example
&g

Re: Simple example / XML / XSLT In production

[Robert Simmons]

Comparing JAVA to XML is roughly like comparing a outhouse to a Ferrari. They
are two totally different things that are made to solve totally different
problems.

-- Robert

- Original Message -
From: "Adrian Boston" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2003 1:18 AM
Subject: RE: Simple example / XML / XSLT In production


Actually, I'm comparing xml to java, not product to product. And that
was not my opinion; I've been sold on xml for some time; however my
experience has been system to system, not webby front-end.

Btw. It seems most people like mopeds.

Adrian Boston


-Original Message-
From: Robert Simmons [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 3:59 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Simple example / XML / XSLT In production

Huh? JSP has no object hierarchy. JSP is basically a way to write a
servlet
without having to implement the servlet interfaces. In short it is a
shortcut. The end result of JSP is always a servlet (one per JSP page).
XML/XSLT is a totally different paradigm.

In cocoon generators are used to deliver DATA. This data is in XML form.
There is no logic mixed into this data as is the case with JSP. Then The
XML
data is transformed (very mathematically) into content. This content can
be
HTML, another XML document such as a soap request, WML, PDF and so on.

So, as a matter of fact JSP mixes not only model and view but also model
view
AND controller. In the cocoon world the Generators and actions are
controllers. The XML is the model and the view is accomplished through
XSLT
transforms. Its the same for XSP. In this case an XSP is translated
into, not
a servlet like JSP, but a generator. So even though you write an XSP to
implement some functionality, this XSP is still going to be spitting out
XML
which must be transformed into content.

Comparing the two is like comparing a moped to a Ferrari. The cocoon way
is
CLEARLY superior for any number of project planning, resource management
and
software engineering reasons.

-- Derisor

- Original Message -
From: "Adrian Boston" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2003 12:45 AM
Subject: RE: Simple example / XML / XSLT In production



Ah, thanks for the linx.

I was debating xml, xslt versus jsp with a colleague. He noted that
although xml, xslt works well in a divided graphics/analyst/developer
big team, it eventually was scrapped for JSP. The lack of object
hierarchy and polymorphism made changes very difficult.
Can anyone provide tales of xml, xslt in a major production? (sans
company name, of course)

Thanks,

-Original Message-
From: Yves Vindevogel [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 3:31 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Simple example

Jeremy Ashton, who recently published a book on Cocoon, wrote a very
good "two
idots guide to Cocoon".  This document is still online somewhere.  I
guess
Jeremy can point it out, he's a frequent reader of this user-list.
That document gave me a lot of support and help, back in the days

> Re: Hopefully some encouragement
>
> An introductory document would prove extremely useful for the Cocoon
> cause, as it sounds great in both concept and implementation. Some of
us
> are in positions to recommend xml, xslt over the forsaken jsp, struts,
> ejb method, but cannot afford the time to master yet another complex
> st*nking framework.
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Robert Simmons [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 2:10 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: Simple example
>
> Once more ? =)
>
> Its in progress. Right now beginner documentation is a little thin.
>
> -- Robert
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Stefan Riegel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Monday, February 03, 2003 8:41 PM
> Subject: Re: Simple example
>
> > Alireza Fattahi wrote:
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > The currently cocoon web application is very complex. Is there any
>
> light
>
> > > weight example out there; some thing like blank web application in
>
> struts.
>
> > > Alireza.
>
> -
>
> > > Please check that your question  has not already been answered in
>
> the
>
> > > FAQ before posting.
>
> <http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/faq/index.html>
>
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
>
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
> > > For additional commands, e-mail:
>
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
> > Alireza,
> >
> > I remember my first steps with cocoon some time ago. I removed step
by
> > step lines from the sitemap until 

Re: Simple example / XML / XSLT In production

[Robert Simmons]

Huh? JSP has no object hierarchy. JSP is basically a way to write a servlet
without having to implement the servlet interfaces. In short it is a
shortcut. The end result of JSP is always a servlet (one per JSP page).
XML/XSLT is a totally different paradigm.

In cocoon generators are used to deliver DATA. This data is in XML form.
There is no logic mixed into this data as is the case with JSP. Then The XML
data is transformed (very mathematically) into content. This content can be
HTML, another XML document such as a soap request, WML, PDF and so on.

So, as a matter of fact JSP mixes not only model and view but also model view
AND controller. In the cocoon world the Generators and actions are
controllers. The XML is the model and the view is accomplished through XSLT
transforms. Its the same for XSP. In this case an XSP is translated into, not
a servlet like JSP, but a generator. So even though you write an XSP to
implement some functionality, this XSP is still going to be spitting out XML
which must be transformed into content.

Comparing the two is like comparing a moped to a Ferrari. The cocoon way is
CLEARLY superior for any number of project planning, resource management and
software engineering reasons.

-- Derisor

- Original Message -
From: "Adrian Boston" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2003 12:45 AM
Subject: RE: Simple example / XML / XSLT In production



Ah, thanks for the linx.

I was debating xml, xslt versus jsp with a colleague. He noted that
although xml, xslt works well in a divided graphics/analyst/developer
big team, it eventually was scrapped for JSP. The lack of object
hierarchy and polymorphism made changes very difficult.
Can anyone provide tales of xml, xslt in a major production? (sans
company name, of course)

Thanks,

-Original Message-
From: Yves Vindevogel [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 3:31 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Simple example

Jeremy Ashton, who recently published a book on Cocoon, wrote a very
good "two
idots guide to Cocoon".  This document is still online somewhere.  I
guess
Jeremy can point it out, he's a frequent reader of this user-list.
That document gave me a lot of support and help, back in the days

> Re: Hopefully some encouragement
>
> An introductory document would prove extremely useful for the Cocoon
> cause, as it sounds great in both concept and implementation. Some of
us
> are in positions to recommend xml, xslt over the forsaken jsp, struts,
> ejb method, but cannot afford the time to master yet another complex
> st*nking framework.
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Robert Simmons [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 2:10 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: Simple example
>
> Once more ? =)
>
> Its in progress. Right now beginner documentation is a little thin.
>
> -- Robert
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Stefan Riegel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Monday, February 03, 2003 8:41 PM
> Subject: Re: Simple example
>
> > Alireza Fattahi wrote:
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > The currently cocoon web application is very complex. Is there any
>
> light
>
> > > weight example out there; some thing like blank web application in
>
> struts.
>
> > > Alireza.
>
> -
>
> > > Please check that your question  has not already been answered in
>
> the
>
> > > FAQ before posting.
>
> <http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/faq/index.html>
>
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
>
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
> > > For additional commands, e-mail:
>
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
> > Alireza,
> >
> > I remember my first steps with cocoon some time ago. I removed step
by
> > step lines from the sitemap until I reached a minimal hello-world
> > application. While removing lines, I did read the comments etc. I
was
>
> a
>
> > good exercise.
> >
> > I did plan doing the same with the cocoon.xconf, but I lost
patience.
> >
> > Regards
> > Stefan
> >
> >
> >
-
> > Please check that your question  has not already been answered in
the
> > FAQ before posting.
<http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/faq/index.html>
> >
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > For additional commands, e-mail:
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
> -
> Please check that your question  has not already been answered in the
&g

Re: curious problem with new instalation--where are the XML files?

[Robert Simmons]

I'm afraid you are a bit confused.

> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Hello,
>
> I just installed Cocoon on my system and I have an interesting problem.
>
> I copied the war package into
> ~/jboss-3.0.4_tomcat-4.1.12/server/default/deploy and restarted the
> server using the script:

No need. Its a servlet. JBoss will do all the deployment for you.

> ~/jboss-3.0.4_tomcat-4.1.12/bin/run.sh. I got
> the welcome page at http://localhost:8080/cocoon/ and  I was very happy.

Happy is good. =)

>
> I ran through several of the samples and lthey seemed neat. This would
> be great for a personal web site. Anyway, I wanted to do some of the
> exercises so i entered http://localhost:8080/cocoon/mount and got an
> error. I decided to find the mount directory.

What error did you get ? Cocoon doesnt quite work this way. In cocoon you map
a URL to a pipeline, a combination of generator, 0 to n transformers, and a
serializer. So all URLS are blocked unless they are mapped to a pipeline.
Wheras mount may be mapped to a pipeline, that doesnt guarantee that it will
give you a directory view.

>
> This is where things get interesting. The cocoon directory was not
> under ~/jboss-3.0.4_tomcat-4.1.12/tomcat-4.1.x/webapps

Why should it be? Its in the WAR file you dropped in the deploy directory.
Unpack it and deploy it exploded and you will see what I mean.

> but under
> ~/jboss-3.0.4_tomcat-4.1.12/work/mainengine/localhost . I found some
> files under
> ~/jboss-3.0.4_tomcat-4.1.12/work/mainengine/localhost/cocoon-files/org/
> apache/cocoon/www/jndi_/localhost/cocoon/ but no xml source files

No no, thats just a tomcat work directory. Temporary files there. Cocoon
takes the sitemap and actually generates a java file and compiles it. It does
that stuff in this directory. The only time you should ever have to look here
is if you get some strange exception in a sitemap or XSP page and cant figure
it out from the XML. Then you can go to the work directory and look up the
source. Otherwise forget this directory.

>
> Where are the xml source files? Why did the war install Cocoon to such
> a weird directory? Is not this a strange problem?

The war isntalled to your deploy directory. Unpack it with the jar command
and you will see all the gory guts of cocoon. You can create a directory
named cocoon.war and unpack the actual war file into this directory. Then you
can move this directory to the deploy directory of JBoss and it will treat it
exactly as if it was a war file. Refer to the JBoss documentation on
deploying exploded archives. It is within this war that you will find what
you are lookign for.

>
> David Novogrodsky
> http://www.novogrodsky.net
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
> Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (Darwin)

-- Derisor


-
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FAQ before posting. 

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Re: cocoon & struts together

[Robert Simmons]

Actually I'm an EJB specialist and I don't generally work on projects
conducive to web interfaces. The complexity level of the stuff I do is too
high. (Pharmaceutical industry and genetic research). My customers generally
require a higher range of functionality than a web interface can provide.

That being said, I do, however, do some web work which is why I took up the
idea of cocoon. I use the same technique that I use for GUI programming.
Basically a command centric architecture. I hate to say "struts is for
amateurs" but it kind of is. It has low complexity and thus low
functionality. It also has high cost in terms of content delivery and
maintenance costs. I personally chose to avoid all that and let Java objects
do all the work and let the framework just concentrate on presentation. Enter
cocoon.

My programs consist of allot of specially designed generators that generate
pure data. Then I use XSLT to translate that into the appropriate media. I
also use XSLT to output the forms though I am experimenting with reflexive
techniques that I have used in GUI applications to make generation of forms
be based on reflexive command analysis.

Frameworks like struts mix functionality with presentation, which IMHO is a
very bad thing. Its a high maintenance cost solution with a low development
cost. That is the wrong way around. To be professional you want high
development cost and low maintenance cost. This causes your feature turn
around, post release, to be much faster. Since you are able to react quickly
to the demands of your users, your company or customers win. The guy that
slapped it together with low development costs may make some sales coming out
the door, but will bleed customers as they seek more stable solutions with
faster turn-around time for new features and fault correction.

I guess that is a long way of saying, "put all your work into the back end."
Cocoon is perfect for this because you can develop custom generators to
deliver data and let a web designer with a couple weeks of training worry
about the XSLT translation. In the meantime your valuable programmer
resources are implementing new features and stabilizing the product.

Well that's my opinion on the matter.

-- Robert


- Original Message -
From: "Antonio Gallardo" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 11:48 PM
Subject: Re: cocoon & struts together


> Robert Simmons dijo:
> > I dont think that using struts would be useful within an efficient
> > cocoon site. Cocoon takes another approach to web development that is,
> > in my opinion, superior to the jsp/struts approach.
>
> Thanks for the comment. I was trying to start learning about this stuff.
>
> As a bean specialist (a book writer) what tools you recommend to manage
> all the beans stuff (creation, changes, etc.)
>
> Thanks for the comments.
>
> Antonio Gallardo
>
>
>
> -
> Please check that your question  has not already been answered in the
> FAQ before posting. <http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/faq/index.html>
>
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> For additional commands, e-mail:   <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>


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Re: Simple example

[Robert Simmons]

Once more ? =)

Its in progress. Right now beginner documentation is a little thin.

-- Robert

- Original Message -
From: "Stefan Riegel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, February 03, 2003 8:41 PM
Subject: Re: Simple example


> Alireza Fattahi wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > The currently cocoon web application is very complex. Is there any light
> > weight example out there; some thing like blank web application in
struts.
> >
> > Alireza.
> >
> > -
> > Please check that your question  has not already been answered in the
> > FAQ before posting. <http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/faq/index.html>
> >
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > For additional commands, e-mail:   <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >
>
> Alireza,
>
> I remember my first steps with cocoon some time ago. I removed step by
> step lines from the sitemap until I reached a minimal hello-world
> application. While removing lines, I did read the comments etc. I was a
> good exercise.
>
> I did plan doing the same with the cocoon.xconf, but I lost patience.
>
> Regards
> Stefan
>
>
> -
> Please check that your question  has not already been answered in the
> FAQ before posting. <http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/faq/index.html>
>
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> For additional commands, e-mail:   <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>


-
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Re: cocoon & struts together

[Robert Simmons]

I dont think that using struts would be useful within an efficient cocoon
site. Cocoon takes another approach to web development that is, in my
opinion, superior to the jsp/struts approach. I do admit that the learnign
curve is high. in fact many on this list can tell you that ive been beatign
up cocoon over that issue a bit. However, I do think that it is worth it in
the end.

-- Robert

- Original Message -
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, February 03, 2003 5:05 PM
Subject: AW: cocoon & struts together


Hi Matthew,

Yes of course ;-) There is some experience with struts allready. With cocoon
not so much. And this question is a study about the possibilities. I think
the synergy of both frameworks can (perhaps) realize very powerful
solutioons.

Juraj



-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: Matthew Langham [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Gesendet: Montag, 3. Februar 2003 16:58
An: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Betreff: RE: cocoon & struts together


Hi Juraj,

> like SAP. On this connects a webapplication which should be done
> with with struts. Some areas of this application should be

why are you considering Struts (at all)? I am interested in this as we often
meet this kind of setup/discussion and we try to convince people to go for a
Cocoon-only solution (of course) :-)

Matthew

--
Open Source Group   Cocoon { Consulting, Training, Projects }
=
Matthew Langham, S&N AG, Klingenderstrasse 5, D-33100 Paderborn
Tel:+49-5251-1581-30 [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.s-und-n.de
-
Cocoon book:
  http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0735712352/needacake-20
Weblogs:
  http://radio.weblogs.com/0103021/
  http://www.oreillynet.com/weblogs/author/1014
=


> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Monday, February 03, 2003 4:46 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: cocoon & struts together
>
>
> Hi,
>
> has someone any experiences with the comosition of struts and cocoon?
>
> I have a middleware on EJB and JCA which connects to some Systems
> like SAP. On this connects a webapplication which should be done
> with with struts. Some areas of this application should be
> transformed by cocoon in different outputs. My idea was to run
> some views with cocoon. A struts action would connect a pipeline
> from cocoon and passe the file which has to be transformed and visualized.
>
> Any suggestions or practices?
>
> Juraj
>
>
>
> -
> Please check that your question  has not already been answered in the
> FAQ before posting. <http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/faq/index.html>
>
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> For additional commands, e-mail:   <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
>


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Re: Cocoon 2 with jboss-3.0.4_tomcat-4.1.12

[Robert Simmons]

The manifest is located, strangely enough, in the WEB-INF directory of the
latest release version of the war. You will have to use the entries in that
manifest to create your own war. Please look at the -m option to the jar
command or, better yet, the ant jar task.

-- Robert


> Hello!
> thx for your reply. can you post an example manifest file? and where do
> i have to put the manifest file? into the cocoon war file or into the
> ear file ?
> thx, Chris
> On Tue, Feb 04, 2003 at 11:28:06AM +0100, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
>> The problem is that you need the manifest file that has the Cocoon-Libs
entry and the other entries for the Jars in the cocoon.war. If oyu dont build
using this manifest than cocoon will not be able to locate anything. If you
deploy as an exploded war than you will not have this problem.
>>
>> - Original Nachricht 
>> >
>> > has anybody cocoon 2 with jboss 3/tomcat 4.1 up and running?
>> >
>> > i have tried to deploy my c2 application which usually runs on jboss
>> > 2.4.4/tomcat 3.2 (j2sdk1.3) to the newly installed jboss3.0.4/tomcat
>> > 4.1.12 (j2sdk1.4) environment. i have also build an ear file with the c2
>> > war file and an application.xml descriptor.
>> >
>> > in both cases i got the following exception:
>> >
>> > type fatal
>> >
>> > message Language Exception
>> >
>> > description org.apache.cocoon.ProcessingException: Language Exception:
>> > org.apache.cocoon.components.language.LanguageException: Error compiling

- Original Message -
From: "Christian Joelly" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 12:03 PM
Subject: Re: Cocoon 2 with jboss-3.0.4_tomcat-4.1.12



-
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Re: [XML EDITOR] Netbeans

[Robert Simmons]

I use NetBeans. It has a good XML editor built into it but it would do well
to add a WYSIWYG XSLT editor. So you can go write it. =)

-- Robert

- Original Message -
From: "Antonio Gallardo" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, February 02, 2003 2:47 AM
Subject: [XML EDITOR] Netbeans


> Is anyone here using netbeans? more info at: http://www.netbeans.org
>
> It looks like netbeans has a built-in powerfull XML editor.
>
> Can someone share his own experience with this?
>
> Regards,
>
> Antonio Gallardo
>
>
>
> -
> Please check that your question  has not already been answered in the
> FAQ before posting. <http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/faq/index.html>
>
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> For additional commands, e-mail:   <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>


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To the Columbia and her crew.

[Robert Simmons]

Words cannot express the sorrow we feel at the loss 
of the Columbia. As scientists ourselves, we feel a kinship to those that died 
200,000 feet above the state of Texas. We should all take a moment to say 
farewell and then to push on with science and exploration so that their deaths 
were not in vain. As we mourn their loss, we should also remember that they all 
died living their childhood dream. It should be some solace that they all 
realized the pinnacle of their aspirations before leaving this world. 

 
To all of the families involved, words cannot 
express the sorrow we feel for the loss of their loved ones. We would only ask 
that in your moment of grief, you remember not how they died, but how they 
lived. 
 
-- Robert Simmons jr. 
-- Senior Software Engineer
-- American Living in Munich, 
Germany

Sitemap Tag Reference

[Robert Simmons]

Is there a reference manual to the sitemap 
schema and tags ? If you, I would appreciate a link. 
 
-- Robert

Re: mapping to basepath in static content

[Robert Sösemann]

Yes, thank you, it's better than nothing. But I need to replace URL in scr,
value, action ... attributes as well. Sometimes even in javascript commands.
I tried to write my own xsl, but then it really gets very slow.

Any idea.

Robert
- Original Message -
From: "Murad Jura" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, February 01, 2003 1:15 PM
Subject: Re: mapping to basepath in static content


> Hello Robert,
>
> there is the AugmentTransformer which augments all 'href' attributes
> with the full path to the request. IMHO it is a good starting point for
you.
>
> Regards,
> Murad Jura.
>
> Robert Sösemann wrote:
> > Hello,
> >
> > what I need is a centralized mechanism to change the paths in all my
> > site-elements. (that means: Later when I switsch from development to
> > production I just want to change pathname at one single point, not every
> > single href, src ...)
> >
> > Inside elements handled by cocoon (XSP, Generators, Action) thats no
> > problem, because they know their own context. Things I later add in my
> > Transformers are also no problem. I use xsl:include to set a variable in
> > very other xsl.
> >
> > BUT: I also use static html or xhtml pages. How can change path
attributes
> > an even javascript command in a similar centralized way?
> >
> > Who can help? Maybe I am on a totally wrong way.
> >
> > Rob
> >
> >
> >
> > -
> > Please check that your question  has not already been answered in the
> > FAQ before posting. <http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/faq/index.html>
> >
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > For additional commands, e-mail:   <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >
>
>
>
>
> -
> Please check that your question  has not already been answered in the
> FAQ before posting. <http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/faq/index.html>
>
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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2.1 ? Release date and stabiltiy?

[Robert Simmons]

I was wondering if there has been a target release 
date set for 2.1. Additionally what experiences have people had with the current 
CVS builds of 2.1 ? Is it stable in core functionality ? 
 
-- Robert

mapping to basepath in static content

[Robert Sösemann]

Hello,

what I need is a centralized mechanism to change the paths in all my
site-elements. (that means: Later when I switsch from development to
production I just want to change pathname at one single point, not every
single href, src ...)

Inside elements handled by cocoon (XSP, Generators, Action) thats no
problem, because they know their own context. Things I later add in my
Transformers are also no problem. I use xsl:include to set a variable in
very other xsl.

BUT: I also use static html or xhtml pages. How can change path attributes
an even javascript command in a similar centralized way?

Who can help? Maybe I am on a totally wrong way.

Rob



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Re: Cocoon Competence Center Updates

[Robert Simmons]

My book has nothing to do with cocoon. Its a side 
issue at best. That's why I was so irritated about spending 2 weeks on it to 
draw a blank. Nothing like spending 2 weeks on something you consider to be 
trivial to your main line of work. 
 
-- Robert

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Irving Salisbury 
  
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  
  Sent: Thursday, January 30, 2003 2:54 
  PM
  Subject: Re: Cocoon Competence Center 
  Updates
  You know, I have been coding in cocoon for about 2 years now, 
  and have gotten by quite happily without XSP pages at all.  The bug you 
  are referring to only is a bug with XSP.  Maybe you can look at cocoon 
  without using XSP pages?  There may be a reason you have to use XSP, but 
  just wanted to chime in with this.  I prefer to avoid using XSP pages and 
  stick with plain Java code, mostly using custom actions and transformers. 
   It has worked well on our projects.  Sorry about your 
  book.IrvRobert Simmons wrote:
  Is not cocoon's power or anything else that I'm arguing with. There is an
extremely serious bug in cocoon that is causing me to not be able to use it
at all. It is clear that cocoon was developed to be a single solution and to
not integrate with technologies such as application servers. The classloader
issue, http://nagoya.apache.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=16580,  would make
it ridiculous for me to do anything in cocoon. If I have to deploy all 100
EJB libs of the company I work for in cocoon as well as in the application
server, than my colleagues would rightly laugh themselves silly. In fact I
cant believe this issue even exists in a product this mature. I am looking at
probably 3 months to get this fixed, minimum, if it is ever fixed. At that
point I will have to wait for a release of the product, as my company would
throw me at the door for putting up a bleeding edge CVS build.

So basically I'm screwed when I comes to my book and when it comes to my
company. Cocoon is pretty much out. I guess I have to throw out 2 weeks of
agonizing work and I dot know how many emails and recode the whole damn thing
in JSP. Lovely.

Well, I suppose it could be worse. I dot see much market for Cocoon
developers anyway.

-- Robert

- Original Message -
From: "SAXESS - Hussayn Dabbous" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, January 30, 2003 9:44 AM
Subject: Re: Cocoon Competence Center Updates


  
Hy Robert,

I appreciate your honesty.
I hope, you keep with us. I think you can really help
getting this into the next generation...

just a few of my experiences if you don't mind ...

0.) i use to install minimalistic components when
 i start investigating. in this sense i only
 needed tomcat-4.*.* to start. just installed it
 and ready to go...

1.) When i started working with cocoon i first got
 very very frustrated:
 sitemap not working as i expected
 actions, uhh?
 logicsheets, sounds good, howto???
 and so on ...
 I even did not know, what to ask in detail.

3.) very slowly i got a first overview. i only scratched
 the surface and one day (after about two weeks) i got
 hit by realizing the hidden mightiness of the beast.
 "Hey that's great, this works fine,
  ahh what easy going here and there..."
 Until now i still only was playing with the very
 basics (sitemap, generator, protocol handlers)

4.) After reviewing my first experiences with cocoon i came
 to the conclusions:
 - its very complex
 - it has great oportunities
 - it is "complex documented"
 - it moves fast
 - it neads quality assurance to get mature

My decisions:

 - use cocoon in my own projects
 - help cocoon users to get a clear understanding
   with less frustrations

I'm still happy with cocoon and im still only using the very
basics. I am curious where i can get with XSP and ESQL ;-)

regards, hussayn


Robert Simmons wrote:

  Fine ... I'm beginning to loose interest to be honest. Right now I cant
  do
  

  anything with XSP with cocoon at all. because of the classpath bug it
  looks
  

  like two weeks of my work are about to explode in my face. Sigh.

-- Robert

- Original Message -
From: "SAXESS - Hussayn Dabbous" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, January 30, 2003 9:12 AM
Subject: Re: Cocoon Competence Center Updates



  
Hy, Robert;

Thank you very much for the contributions.

I propose to move parts of your contrib into another page.

reasons:

1.) this page deals with deploying cocoon. it should not cover
essentials of cocoon internals. this is the next story to be
covered, once cocoon is deployed.

2.) i want this document to be for "beginning beginners", (we used
to name them nebies ;-). Yes we should prepare a doc, that
contains your hint

Re: Time to go back to JSP. Cocoon just isnt ready.

[Robert Simmons]

Sorry. To say I've had a bad week would be a massive understatement. Today
was just not the right day to flame me. If he had done it yesterday I would
have ignored him. But my mail was just as uncalled for as his.

-- Robert


- Original Message -
From: "Sorin Marti" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, January 30, 2003 2:22 PM
Subject: Re: Time to go back to JSP. Cocoon just isnt ready.


> Ooooh!!
>
> I have not followed the list in the last days and now this. What's going
> on? If you got a problem with each other why can't you be polite?
>
> This list is (AFAIK) NOT to curse at somebody. If you want to vituperate
> please do it per PM!!
>
>
> Sorin Marti
>
>
> -
> Please check that your question  has not already been answered in the
> FAQ before posting. <http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/faq/index.html>
>
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> For additional commands, e-mail:   <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>


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Re: Time to go back to JSP. Cocoon just isnt ready.

[Robert Simmons]

Neither was his post to me. However, I agree its a waste of time.

-- Robert

- Original Message -
From: "SAXESS - Hussayn Dabbous" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, January 30, 2003 2:12 PM
Subject: Re: Time to go back to JSP. Cocoon just isnt ready.


> Robert,
>
> this was NOT POLITE !
>
> stop this attacks! thats useless and distracting!
>
> no more words on this.
>
> hussayn
>
> --
> Dr. Hussayn Dabbous
> SAXESS Software Design GmbH
> Neuenhöfer Allee 125
> 50935 Köln
> Telefon: +49-221-56011-0
> Fax: +49-221-56011-20
> E-Mail:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
> -
> Please check that your question  has not already been answered in the
> FAQ before posting. <http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/faq/index.html>
>
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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>


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Re: Time to go back to JSP. Cocoon just isnt ready.

[Robert Simmons]

> Robert Simmons wrote:
>
> > I have seen a plethora of new people come on this list and then just
> >  vanish.
>
> > Comments are invited.
>
> That's a quick decision for someone who has been around here for only 2
> weeks: http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?a=10426232413&r=1&w=2

I have put in 14 to 16 hours a day for 2 weeks on this thing. Lets fuckign
add it up shall we. That would be 210 hours averaging at 15 hours a day.
Dividing by 40 hours (the standard workweek) means that i have put in nearly
5 weeks of work time compressed into 2 weeks. You can sit down and shut up
now.

Since you may havent gotten the picture yet, I dont like being flamed. If I
didnt care I wouldnt have bothered to post the damn mail.

>
> Then again, we should feel honoured because of the email avalanche you
> caused during that short period, in comparison with:
>
>
http://jboss.org/forums/search.jsp?search=true&q=&forums=-1&date=any&user=der
isor&range=10

Avalanche? Oh well just sue me. If you would get off that high horse for 15
seconds, you might realize that that avalanche would have never had happened
if the product was documented properly. Fortunately most members of this list
are a bit more far sighted than you and have initiated a documentation effort
based on my comments. I would say that is a contribution. Im not interested
in your arrogant attitude.

Oh and if you would like to know why it is I have had so few posts on JBoss
forums, the answer is quite simple. The product works properly and well and
is very well documented.

>
> Anyway: http://forum.java.sun.com/thread.jsp?forum=31&thread=243200 :

Oh you are steamed about that? Yes many of us on that forum are sick of kids
comming there asking people to do their homework for them. No, you didnt
really read the thread it seems or you would have seen our willingness to
answer questions as long as they arent "my teacher said to do x, can someone
write it for me?"

As for teaching yourself in cocoon, again I have an ace in the hole you have
forgotten. The documentation in cocoon is minimal at best. This has been
acknowledged by other more intelligent members of this mailing list.

> "In 4 years of college I knew more about computers than all of
> my profs together. Why? Cause I taught myself. Teaching one's self is
> rewarding but difficult. You MUST struggle. You must figure things out
> the hard way."

Point out the documentation on the classpath issue. Show me the rich and
fully qualified API documentation. Ahem. There isnt any. Do you make a habbit
of flaming while firing blanks?

> Pardon me if I find your decisions somehow 'unstable'. I find it a pity
> to see you post this kind of judgement after so many people have been
> actively trying to help you (and still do). Sure there is stuff that
> Cocoon fails to do. I just think you are the type of person who will
> always find something that will warrant _not_ using something you
> haven't created yourself.

There have been several people willign to help and I appreciate their
assistance. These people have also recognized the shortcommings of cocoon and
have acknowledged my input as a pure user and non-cocoon hacker. Perhaps you
should hjoin them. I dont make the decision lightly and if I could find any
way of satisfying my requirements with cocoon in the time I have, than I
would change my mind. Unfortunately, real life is a tad more demanding.

> In case you start wondering why I'm so up-close and personal about this:

Like I care.

> you really seem to forget this is _not_ a product, but an open source
> _project_, envisioned, created and supported by a community of real
> people.

If its not a product why bother? Anythign worth doing is worth doing right.
If you arent intending to make somethign that can be widely used, why are you
bothering? Just idle curriosity? if so label it as such so people can say
"oh," and move on to something that people intend to be real. I think,
however, the cocoon developers have a bit more vision.

> We are not being protective about our work, and we will readily
> admit its problems, but if all we get is yet another "gee I'm gonna
> leave 'coz this sucks" reply from you, I'm pretty sure I won't be the
> only one who just stops reading your mails.

Please do. You have nothing intelligent to contribute so please add me to my
ignore filter. That is assuming your monitor hasnt exploded from your flame
beign stuffed back into your face.

> Oh well - flame me, I can handle it. I'm sick of seeing nice people
> trying to help you, and you just spreading FUD in return. This is the
> third inflamatory email I composed to you during the past few days, and
> this time, I won't refrain from sending.

Feel free. If you ever come up with 

Re: Cocoon Competence Center Updates

[Robert Simmons]

my question is how other people can even use cocoon with this bug in it.
Certainly if you are just doing SQL to a little database, it will work fine
but has none before tried to integrate it with an enterprise development
system?

-- Robert

- Original Message -
From: "Luca Morandini" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, January 30, 2003 1:27 PM
Subject: RE: Cocoon Competence Center Updates


> > -Original Message-
> > From: Robert Simmons [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > Sent: Thursday, January 30, 2003 1:08 PM
> > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Subject: Re: Cocoon Competence Center Updates
>
> > No no no... you dont get it. Im a consumer. Im a professional programmer.
Im
> > not some guy hackign in his dorm room between classes. I dotn have TIME
to
> > learn the detailed integrated architecture of every little product I use.
> ...
> > Once I figured out how it worked I would have to
> > figure out a resolution to the problem and THEN get apache to accept the
> > resolution. All this before my product is done and my customers are
looking
> > to download and use it. NOT.
> >
>
> Robert,
>
> I agree on the sorry state of the doc in Cocoon; sorry state which I take,
partially, as a fault of mine, since I wrote only 3-4 FAQ
> entries and a couple pages... and I could have done more.
>
> I don't agree on the bug resolution part: I uncovered a couple problems
with the SQLTranformer: it was easy to fix them and have
> them (well, actually one) accepted by the committers.
>
> Compare that with a closed-source product: it would have taken me days
struggling with the tech support to just have the problem
> recognised as such; and then, I would have ended up waiting for the next
release.
>
> Regards,
>
> -
>Luca Morandini
>GIS Consultant
>   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> http://utenti.tripod.it/lmorandini/index.html
> -
>
>
>
>
> -
> Please check that your question  has not already been answered in the
> FAQ before posting. <http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/faq/index.html>
>
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> For additional commands, e-mail:   <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>


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Re: Cocoon Competence Center Updates

[Robert Simmons]

> From: "Robert Simmons" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
> > Is not cocoon's power or anything else that I'm arguing with. There is an
> > extremely serious bug in cocoon that is causing me to not be able to use
> it
> > at all. It is clear that cocoon was developed to be a single solution and
> to
> > not integrate with technologies such as application servers.
>
> This is not true. If Cocoon does not integrate with a particular
application
> server then this doesn't mean that it was done intentionally. You can
easily
> see even from comments in the source that Cocoon were used with WebSphere,
> WebLogic, iPlanet and several other servers.

It is true. Noone in their right mind makign a large system woudl deploy
every damn jar in the WAR file. That would be psycho. The maintenance alone
to make sure you had the right versions in the appserver and war would be a
nightmare. Perhaps if you are developing a littly SQL app to keep track of
employess cocoon is fine. If you try doing anything serious,issues like hte
classloader issue bring it to its knees. And no, that isnt the only issue.

>
> >The classloader
> > issue, http://nagoya.apache.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=16580,  would
> make
> > it ridiculous for me to do anything in cocoon. If I have to deploy all
100
> > EJB libs of the company I work for in cocoon as well as in the
application
> > server, than my colleagues would rightly laugh themselves silly. In fact
I
> > cant believe this issue even exists in a product this mature. I am
looking
> at
> > probably 3 months to get this fixed, minimum, if it is ever fixed. At
that
> > point I will have to wait for a release of the product, as my company
> would
> > throw me at the door for putting up a bleeding edge CVS build.
>
> The good thing in open source is that you always can take care of any bug
> yourself and provide a patch which would be definitely applied if it's of a
> good quality.

No no no... you dont get it. Im a consumer. Im a professional programmer. Im
not some guy hackign in his dorm room between classes. I dotn have TIME to
learn the detailed integrated architecture of every little product I use.
What really broke the proverbial camel's back was that bug beign reclassified
from high priority to normal. Its at that point that final irritation set in.
it woudl take me 3 months just ot figure out how the internals of cocoon
works. Lets face it, its not documented worth a damn. Even the API is
documented extremely poorly. Once I figured out how it worked I would have to
figure out a resolution to the problem and THEN get apache to accept the
resolution. All this before my product is done and my customers are looking
to download and use it. NOT.

> > So basically I'm screwed when I comes to my book and when it comes to my
> > company. Cocoon is pretty much out. I guess I have to throw out 2 weeks
of
> > agonizing work and I dot know how many emails and recode the whole damn
> thing
> > in JSP. Lovely.
>
> I'd recommend to use Struts in case you choose JSP. But of course, that
> depends on requirements to your project. If you have to deal with various
> output formats, need customizable pages, need integrations with external
XML
> datasources then it's worth trying to overcome Cocoon bug in some way: try
> to fix it, raise this issue on cocoon dev list, try to play with your app
> server settings (maybe declare those jars in Manifest - it's possible
> according to Servlet Spec), etc.

No, Im notgoing to mess with struts. That would be another 2 weeks to learn.
Im already severly bummed that it looks like ive wasted 2 weeks of work. Im
not going o make it worse. The first version in the book is going to have to
be straight JSP without frameworks. Do I like it? No. Do I have a choice? No.
Ive even tried to build it from source even though I have little clue what im
doing. You cant just jump into 500+ quasi documented source files and figure
out the problem in 15 minutes.

>
> --
>   Konstantin
>
> >
> > Well, I suppose it could be worse. I dot see much market for Cocoon
> > developers anyway.
> >
> > -- Robert
> >
> > - Original Message -
> > From: "SAXESS - Hussayn Dabbous" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Thursday, January 30, 2003 9:44 AM
> > Subject: Re: Cocoon Competence Center Updates
> >
> >
> > > Hy Robert,
> > >
> > > I appreciate your honesty.
> > > I hope, you keep with us. I think you can really help
> > > getting this into the next generation...
> > >
> > > just a few of my experiences if you don't mind ...
> > >
> > > 0.) i use

Time to go back to JSP. Cocoon just isnt ready.

[Robert Simmons]

I have reluctantly come to the conclusion that 
cocoon is not ready for professional development. Unlike tomcat, or Ant, this 
product has serious things blocking its use in production systems. I personally 
am completely and utterly stopped by the classpath bug indicated here: http://nagoya.apache.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=16580. 
Just another symptom of a product that needs more work to be used in 
professional products. That coupled with the lack of documentation makes the 
package difficult at best. I will possibly be back in a year or so when this 
technology has gone somewhere. This is assuming it is still alive by then. I 
have seen a plethora of new people come on this list and then just vanish. That 
doesn't bode well for its reputation. I don't want to take this step and throw 
away two weeks of work but the fact is that I also don't have time to wait for 
such massive bugs to be fixed and to spend another two weeks swimming through 
poor debugging tools. Its a massive bummer to me but in order to be true to 
myself I cant see alternatives. The fact is that however flawed JSPs are, I can 
crack together JSP pagers 40 times faster than cocoon pages. When it comes to 
deadlines, major bugs like this just stop a product cold. Anyway, Ill stop 
rambling now.
 
Comments are invited.
 
-- Robert

Re: Cocoon Competence Center Updates

[Robert Simmons]

Is not cocoon's power or anything else that I'm arguing with. There is an
extremely serious bug in cocoon that is causing me to not be able to use it
at all. It is clear that cocoon was developed to be a single solution and to
not integrate with technologies such as application servers. The classloader
issue, http://nagoya.apache.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=16580,  would make
it ridiculous for me to do anything in cocoon. If I have to deploy all 100
EJB libs of the company I work for in cocoon as well as in the application
server, than my colleagues would rightly laugh themselves silly. In fact I
cant believe this issue even exists in a product this mature. I am looking at
probably 3 months to get this fixed, minimum, if it is ever fixed. At that
point I will have to wait for a release of the product, as my company would
throw me at the door for putting up a bleeding edge CVS build.

So basically I'm screwed when I comes to my book and when it comes to my
company. Cocoon is pretty much out. I guess I have to throw out 2 weeks of
agonizing work and I dot know how many emails and recode the whole damn thing
in JSP. Lovely.

Well, I suppose it could be worse. I dot see much market for Cocoon
developers anyway.

-- Robert

- Original Message -
From: "SAXESS - Hussayn Dabbous" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, January 30, 2003 9:44 AM
Subject: Re: Cocoon Competence Center Updates


> Hy Robert,
>
> I appreciate your honesty.
> I hope, you keep with us. I think you can really help
> getting this into the next generation...
>
> just a few of my experiences if you don't mind ...
>
> 0.) i use to install minimalistic components when
>  i start investigating. in this sense i only
>  needed tomcat-4.*.* to start. just installed it
>  and ready to go...
>
> 1.) When i started working with cocoon i first got
>  very very frustrated:
>  sitemap not working as i expected
>  actions, uhh?
>  logicsheets, sounds good, howto???
>  and so on ...
>  I even did not know, what to ask in detail.
>
> 3.) very slowly i got a first overview. i only scratched
>  the surface and one day (after about two weeks) i got
>  hit by realizing the hidden mightiness of the beast.
>  "Hey that's great, this works fine,
>   ahh what easy going here and there..."
>  Until now i still only was playing with the very
>  basics (sitemap, generator, protocol handlers)
>
> 4.) After reviewing my first experiences with cocoon i came
>  to the conclusions:
>  - its very complex
>  - it has great oportunities
>  - it is "complex documented"
>  - it moves fast
>  - it neads quality assurance to get mature
>
> My decisions:
>
>  - use cocoon in my own projects
>  - help cocoon users to get a clear understanding
>with less frustrations
>
> I'm still happy with cocoon and im still only using the very
> basics. I am curious where i can get with XSP and ESQL ;-)
>
> regards, hussayn
>
>
> Robert Simmons wrote:
> > Fine ... I'm beginning to loose interest to be honest. Right now I cant
do
> > anything with XSP with cocoon at all. because of the classpath bug it
looks
> > like two weeks of my work are about to explode in my face. Sigh.
> >
> > -- Robert
> >
> > - Original Message -
> > From: "SAXESS - Hussayn Dabbous" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Thursday, January 30, 2003 9:12 AM
> > Subject: Re: Cocoon Competence Center Updates
> >
> >
> >
> >>Hy, Robert;
> >>
> >>Thank you very much for the contributions.
> >>
> >>I propose to move parts of your contrib into another page.
> >>
> >>reasons:
> >>
> >>1.) this page deals with deploying cocoon. it should not cover
> >> essentials of cocoon internals. this is the next story to be
> >> covered, once cocoon is deployed.
> >>
> >>2.) i want this document to be for "beginning beginners", (we used
> >> to name them nebies ;-). Yes we should prepare a doc, that
> >> contains your hints and tips, but maybe this is an add on
> >> page ?
> >>
> >>if nobody complains, i will move your contribs to another page, but
> >>keep the super esssentials in the doc (and point to the new pages where
> >>relevant)
> >>
> >>is that ok for you Robert?
> >>
> >>regards, Hussayn
> >>
> >>Robert Simmons wrote:
> >>
> >>>Greetings, I have added the following info

Re: Cocoon Competence Center Updates

[Robert Simmons]

Fine ... I'm beginning to loose interest to be honest. Right now I cant do
anything with XSP with cocoon at all. because of the classpath bug it looks
like two weeks of my work are about to explode in my face. Sigh.

-- Robert

- Original Message -
From: "SAXESS - Hussayn Dabbous" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, January 30, 2003 9:12 AM
Subject: Re: Cocoon Competence Center Updates


> Hy, Robert;
>
> Thank you very much for the contributions.
>
> I propose to move parts of your contrib into another page.
>
> reasons:
>
> 1.) this page deals with deploying cocoon. it should not cover
>  essentials of cocoon internals. this is the next story to be
>  covered, once cocoon is deployed.
>
> 2.) i want this document to be for "beginning beginners", (we used
>  to name them nebies ;-). Yes we should prepare a doc, that
>  contains your hints and tips, but maybe this is an add on
>  page ?
>
> if nobody complains, i will move your contribs to another page, but
> keep the super esssentials in the doc (and point to the new pages where
> relevant)
>
> is that ok for you Robert?
>
> regards, Hussayn
>
> Robert Simmons wrote:
> > Greetings, I have added the following information to the cocoon
> > competence center page on installing cocoon. Please feel free to review
> > the following sections and smack me around if I said anything incorrect.
> > The new sections are.
> >
> > * Deploying on an application server.
> > * What is essential?
> >
> > -- Robert
> >
>
> --
> Dr. Hussayn Dabbous
> SAXESS Software Design GmbH
> Neuenhöfer Allee 125
> 50935 Köln
> Telefon: +49-221-56011-0
> Fax: +49-221-56011-20
> E-Mail:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
> -
> Please check that your question  has not already been answered in the
> FAQ before posting. <http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/faq/index.html>
>
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> For additional commands, e-mail:   <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>


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Re: XSP Compiler Issue: Class Not found

[Robert Simmons]

More information. I think this might have to do 
with the classpath setting on the compiler. It seems to be creating its own 
classpath instead of passing the current cocoon classpath to the compiler. The 
classloader, being different, cannot find any classes outside of the current WAR 
to compile. This would mean that you would have to deploy every single library 
you use in the WEB-INF/lib directory. That is untenable for large applications. 
Further, for applications that have to wire into EJB, it is even worse. This is 
because you will often have a set of interfaces for a server side component and 
need to redeploy them. With this limitation, my classes in cocoon could get out 
of synch with those deployed in the application server quite easily and cause 
all sorts of nastiness. 
 
Is this a bug perhaps? Has anyone else hit this? 

 
-- Robert

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Robert Simmons 
  
  To: Cocoon Users 
  Sent: Thursday, January 30, 2003 4:47 
  AM
  Subject: XSP Compiler Issue: Class Not 
  found
  
  Greetings. I decided that I wanted to try writing 
  an XSP page. I know about logicsheets but just to start I figured Id go 
  the brute force approach. The following is the XSP page. 
   
  http://apache.org/xsp"  
  xmlns:jconfer="http://www.jconfer.org/">  
      
  javax.naming.InitialContext    
  javax.naming.NamingException    
  javax.rmi.PortableRemoteObject    
  java.util.Collection    
  java.util.Set    
  java.util.Iterator    
  java.util.Properties    
  jconfer.data.Smiley    
  mirror.datafetch.DataFetch    
  mirror.datafetch.DataFetchHome  
      
      
    try 
  {    InitialContext ictxt = new 
  InitialContext();    
  ictxt.getNameInNamespace()    
      DataFetchHome dfHome = 
  (DataFetchHome)PortableRemoteObject.narrow(   
  ictxt.lookup("JConfer/DataFetch"), 
  DataFetchHome.class);    DataFetch 
  dataFetch = dfHome.create();    
  Collection smileys = dataFetch.performQuery(Smiley.class, null, null, null, 
    
  null, "code ascending");    
  Iterator iter = 
  smileys.iterator();    Smiley 
  tgtSmiley = null;    
    
  "smiley"  
  while (iter.hasNext()) 
  {    
  tgtSmiley = 
  (Smiley)iter.next();    
  tgtSmiley.getCode()    
  tgtSmiley.getDescription()  
  }    
    } catch (Exception ex) 
  {    
  ex.getMessage()  
  }          
  
  
   
  This page is basically a copy of a generator that 
  DOES work .. SHown below. 
   
  package jconfer.client.generators;
   
  import java.io.IOException;import 
  java.util.Collection;import java.util.Date;import 
  java.util.Enumeration;import java.util.Iterator;import 
  java.util.Map;import javax.naming.InitialContext;import 
  javax.naming.NamingException;import 
  javax.rmi.PortableRemoteObject;import 
  javax.servlet.http.HttpServletRequest;import 
  jconfer.data.Smiley;import mirror.datafetch.DataFetch;import 
  mirror.datafetch.DataFetchHome;import 
  org.apache.avalon.framework.parameters.Parameters;import 
  org.apache.cocoon.ProcessingException;import 
  org.apache.cocoon.environment.ObjectModelHelper;import 
  org.apache.cocoon.environment.Request;import 
  org.apache.cocoon.environment.SourceResolver;import 
  org.apache.cocoon.generation.AbstractGenerator;import 
  org.w3c.dom.Document;import org.w3c.dom.Element;import 
  org.xml.sax.SAXException;import 
  org.xml.sax.helpers.AttributesImpl;
   
  /** Handles a command for getting an admin screen 
  for forum smileys. * * 
  Current CVS Tag:  
  $Name$ * @version 
  $Revision$ * @author $author$ */public class 
  SmileyAdminView extends GeneratorBase {
   
    /** {@inheritDoc} */  public void 
  generateContent() throws Exception {    DataFetchHome 
  dfHome = (DataFetchHome)jndiLookup(DataFetchHome.class, 
   
  "JConfer/DataFetch");    DataFetch dataFetch = 
  dfHome.create();    // --    Collection 
  smileys = dataFetch.performQuery(Smiley.class, null, null, null, 
      
  null, "code ascending");    // --    
  AttributesImpl attributes = new AttributesImpl();    Smiley 
  tgtSmiley = null;    // -- Start the 
  content    this.contentHandler.startElement("", 
  "smiley-admin-view", "smiley-admin-view", EMPTY_ATTRS);    
  // -- Do internal elements.    Iterator iter = 
  smileys.iterator();    while (iter.hasNext()) 
  {  tgtSmiley = 
  (Smiley)iter.next();  
  attributes.clear();  
  attributes.addAttribute("", "code", "code", "", 
  tgtSmiley.getCode());  
  attributes.addAttribute("", "description", "description", "", 
  tgtSmiley.getDescription()); 

XSP Compiler Issue: Class Not found

[Robert Simmons]

Greetings. I decided that I wanted to try writing 
an XSP page. I know about logicsheets but just to start I figured Id go the 
brute force approach. The following is the XSP page. 
 
http://apache.org/xsp"  
xmlns:jconfer="http://www.jconfer.org/">  
    
javax.naming.InitialContext    
javax.naming.NamingException    
javax.rmi.PortableRemoteObject    
java.util.Collection    
java.util.Set    
java.util.Iterator    
java.util.Properties    
jconfer.data.Smiley    
mirror.datafetch.DataFetch    
mirror.datafetch.DataFetchHome  
    
    
  try 
{    InitialContext ictxt = new 
InitialContext();    
ictxt.getNameInNamespace()    
    DataFetchHome dfHome = 
(DataFetchHome)PortableRemoteObject.narrow(   
ictxt.lookup("JConfer/DataFetch"), 
DataFetchHome.class);    DataFetch 
dataFetch = dfHome.create();    
Collection smileys = dataFetch.performQuery(Smiley.class, null, null, null, 
  
null, "code ascending");    Iterator 
iter = smileys.iterator();    Smiley 
tgtSmiley = null;    
  
"smiley"  
while (iter.hasNext()) 
{    
tgtSmiley = 
(Smiley)iter.next();    
tgtSmiley.getCode()    
tgtSmiley.getDescription()  
}    
  } catch (Exception ex) 
{    
ex.getMessage()  
}          


 
This page is basically a copy of a generator that 
DOES work .. SHown below. 
 
package jconfer.client.generators;
 
import java.io.IOException;import 
java.util.Collection;import java.util.Date;import 
java.util.Enumeration;import java.util.Iterator;import 
java.util.Map;import javax.naming.InitialContext;import 
javax.naming.NamingException;import 
javax.rmi.PortableRemoteObject;import 
javax.servlet.http.HttpServletRequest;import jconfer.data.Smiley;import 
mirror.datafetch.DataFetch;import mirror.datafetch.DataFetchHome;import 
org.apache.avalon.framework.parameters.Parameters;import 
org.apache.cocoon.ProcessingException;import 
org.apache.cocoon.environment.ObjectModelHelper;import 
org.apache.cocoon.environment.Request;import 
org.apache.cocoon.environment.SourceResolver;import 
org.apache.cocoon.generation.AbstractGenerator;import 
org.w3c.dom.Document;import org.w3c.dom.Element;import 
org.xml.sax.SAXException;import 
org.xml.sax.helpers.AttributesImpl;
 
/** Handles a command for getting an admin screen 
for forum smileys. * * Current 
CVS Tag:  $Name$ * @version 
$Revision$ * @author $author$ */public class 
SmileyAdminView extends GeneratorBase {
 
  /** {@inheritDoc} */  public void 
generateContent() throws Exception {    DataFetchHome dfHome 
= (DataFetchHome)jndiLookup(DataFetchHome.class, 
 
"JConfer/DataFetch");    DataFetch dataFetch = 
dfHome.create();    // --    Collection 
smileys = dataFetch.performQuery(Smiley.class, null, null, null, 
    
null, "code ascending");    // --    
AttributesImpl attributes = new AttributesImpl();    Smiley 
tgtSmiley = null;    // -- Start the 
content    this.contentHandler.startElement("", 
"smiley-admin-view", "smiley-admin-view", EMPTY_ATTRS);    // 
-- Do internal elements.    Iterator iter = 
smileys.iterator();    while (iter.hasNext()) 
{  tgtSmiley = 
(Smiley)iter.next();  
attributes.clear();  
attributes.addAttribute("", "code", "code", "", 
tgtSmiley.getCode());  
attributes.addAttribute("", "description", "description", "", 
tgtSmiley.getDescription());  
this.contentHandler.startElement("", "smiley", "smiley", 
attributes);  
this.contentHandler.endElement("", "smiley", "smiley");    
}    // -- End the document    
this.contentHandler.endElement("", "smiley-admin-view", 
"smiley-admin-view");  }}
 
The problem is that when I try to run the XSP page, 
the compiler freaks out and cannot find any of the Mirror or JConfer classes. It 
gives me a class not found on all of them. However the generator works. These 
classes are deployed in another package and therefore are available to the 
classloader of the application server but somehow cocoon isnt seeing them. Is 
there any way I can tell cocoon that they are there? We know they are available 
because the generator does in fact work. 
 
-- Robert
 

Re: Cocoon Competence Center Updates

[Robert Simmons]

On the same topic, I am more distressed at this 
editing policy. Someone could easily be malicious and log in and erase 
everything. Are we sure there isn't a better way to do this?
 
-- Robert

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Robert Simmons 
  
  To: Cocoon Users 
  Sent: Thursday, January 30, 2003 3:41 
  AM
  Subject: Cocoon Competence Center 
  Updates
  
  
  Greetings, I have added the following information 
  to the cocoon competence center page on installing cocoon. Please feel free to 
  review the following sections and smack me around if I said anything 
  incorrect. The new sections are. 
   
  * Deploying on an application server. 
  
  * What is essential?
   
  -- Robert
   

Cocoon Competence Center Updates

[Robert Simmons]

Greetings, I have added the following information 
to the cocoon competence center page on installing cocoon. Please feel free to 
review the following sections and smack me around if I said anything incorrect. 
The new sections are. 
 
* Deploying on an application server. 

* What is essential?
 
-- Robert
 

Form processign and control flow?

[Robert Simmons]

Well, my newbieness to cocoon continues as does my 
frustration. Anyway, another burning question. 
 
I have a series of forms with pseudo code such as 

 
if (user invokes edit) {
  open edit form;
  on submit of form {
    attempt to execute 
change.
    if (attempt succeeds) route to 
view page. 
    else route to error page with 
the given error message from the attempt. 
  }
}
 
Both the error page and the pages beign routed to 
are usign custom made generators. What I dont know how to do is to do the 
routing. I can always invoke one generator to process the command and return an 
error page if the command doesnt work. However, if the command doesnt work Id 
like the generator to cause a redirect that forwards the user's browser to 
another url. How in the world can I accomplish this? Im eagerly awaitign hearign 
your ideas. 
 
-- Robert

RE: Cocoon for persistent URLs

[Robert Koberg]

Hi,

The forrest project has much of this problem solved (though the config file
needs adjusting :) for smaller type sites.

The idea is to use an explicit site 'map' (site.xml). There you hierarchically
store the site structure. Your content links point to an identifier in the
site.xml. Then there is some XSL that resolves the link for you. So, you move
things around it does not matter because you reference the identifier not a
hardcoded path.

See:
http://xml.apache.org/forrest/linking.html

best,
-Rob


> -Original Message-
> From: I-Lin Kuo [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2003 10:20 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: RE: Cocoon for persistent URLs
>
>
> That's what I was thinking, more or less. I'd have a monitoring application
> check URLs once a day and generate emails if the files were moved or
> modified. But I was wondering if there were other approaches...
>
> There's also the contract issue of what a persistentURL promises: does it
> merely promise that there will always be some file at that URL, or does it
> promise it's always going to be the same file at that URL?
>
> I-Lin Kuo, Ann Arbor, MI
> Macromedia Certified ColdFusion 5.0 Advanced Developer
> Sun Certified Java 2 Programmer
> Ann Arbor Java Users Group (www.aajug.org)
>
> Original Message Follows
> From: "Geoff Howard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: RE: Cocoon for persistent URLs
> Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 12:22:06 -0500
>
> don't know how one would keep track of moved files automatically, but the
> resource exists action could help with the first part.  you could keep a
> lookup table in database or xml with old location and new location and use
> it to lookup new location when resource exists action fails.
>
> Geoff
>
>  > -Original Message-
>  > From: I-Lin Kuo [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
>  > Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2003 10:57 AM
>  > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>  > Subject: Cocoon for persistent URLs
>  >
>  >
>  > Has anybody here used Cocoon to implement persistent URLs? I
>  > don't mean just
>  > technical using Cocoon to make the URL independent of the actual file
>  > location (that's simple using sitemaps), but am interested in how
>  > to manage
>  > this. For example, some of the issues are:
>  >   - making sure the file exists at the remapped URL and what to do if it
>  > disappears or is modified
>  >   - how to keep track of files that get moved.
>
>
> _
> MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*.
> http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus
>
>
> -
> Please check that your question  has not already been answered in the
> FAQ before posting. 
>
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> For additional commands, e-mail:   <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>


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Re: Cocoon Job opps in Frankfurt, Germany

[Robert Simmons]

Yes, my rates had to fall recently by about 12k Euros per year permanent. Its
really irritating. Don't worry, it will pick back up soon.

-- Robert

- Original Message -
From: "Jeremy Aston" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2003 6:49 AM
Subject: RE: Cocoon Job opps in Frankfurt, Germany


>
>
> 
> >
> > On Tuesday 28 January 2003 22:32, Jeremy Aston wrote:
> > > The UK rate has dropped significantly.  You are really looking
> > at something
> > > like £35-£40 per hour (as opposed to £60-£70 ph in the past couple of
> > > years. $500ph is v. reasonable.
> >
> > Not ph, per day
> >
>
> Yup - I meant per day.  $500 is approx £300 = £37.5ph based on 8hr day.
> Which for an experienced web app developer with Java/XML/XSLT and
experience
> of Cocoon is reasonable from an employers perspective.
>
> Having said that the best the same could hope to get at the moment in a
perm
> role would be around 35k per annum and they would be expected to do a lead
> role for that.  There is such a glut of coders, lack of roles and tight
> belts in the UK at the moment that even good guys might have to settle for
> less than 30k - the best could easily get twice that a couple of years
> ago...
>
> 
>
>
> jez
>
>
> __
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Everything you'll ever need on one web page
> from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts
> http://uk.my.yahoo.com
>
> -
> Please check that your question  has not already been answered in the
> FAQ before posting. <http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/faq/index.html>
>
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> For additional commands, e-mail:   <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>


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Re: XMLForms Versus Traditional HTML forms.

[Robert Simmons]

Yeah .. well I meant the XMLForms samples. And I still haven't found those.
The other samples I found easily.

-- Robert

- Original Message -
From: "Niclas Hedhman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2003 6:25 AM
Subject: Re: XMLForms Versus Traditional HTML forms.


On Wednesday 29 January 2003 13:11, Robert Simmons wrote:
> Hmm .. I cant seem to even find the samples on my cocoon installation. Are
> they not in the current binary distribution ?

Provided you have dropped the cocoon.war into $TOMCAT_HOME/webapps, you
should
find samples in;

$TOMCAT_HOME/webapps/cocoon/samples/


Niclas

> -- Robert
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Kirchhoff, Lars" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2003 5:09 AM
> Subject: AW: XMLForms Versus Traditional HTML forms.
>
>
> But why you need then cocoon for? If you just use traditional html
> isn't cocoon a bit to much? i'm just curios? Wouldn't it then better
> just use jsp or something similar?
>
> The main advantage of cocoon and xmlform for me is still to create
> a xml document, which then can be transformed through the pipeline
> in nearly every possible format. This means creating applications or
> websites, which can serve multiple devices.
>
> Especially for xmlforms  there is a strong seperation of concerns,
> which in the first moment and for small application is a bit to
> much, but helps to divide the programming of the actual dataflow and
> business logic from the presentation layer and keeps the code
> manageable. I don't like to mix up any program code with tags from
> either xml or html. That's why I use and tried xmlform and don't
> feel comfortable with xsp.
>
> Of course you can transform the xmlform tags to html form tags,
> as long as there are not to many browser out, which are
> understanding xforms, which are still in draft.
>
> BTW does anybody know an reference implementation of an xforms
> browser?
>
> regards
> Lars
>
> > -Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
> > Von: Robert Simmons [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > Gesendet: Mittwoch, 29. Januar 2003 11:50
> > An: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Betreff: Re: XMLForms Versus Traditional HTML forms.
> >
> >
> > Well actually I already have some generators running to fetch
> > data from the
> > database. I have put that data in manually. Now I want to do
> > it dynamically.
> > Simplicity wise I should use "conventional" forms, but I am
> > not sure if that
> > is the "right" way to do it.
> >
> > -- Robert
> >
> > - Original Message -
> > From: "Niclas Hedhman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2003 4:39 AM
> > Subject: Re: XMLForms Versus Traditional HTML forms.
> >
> > On Wednesday 29 January 2003 11:16, Robert Simmons wrote:
> > > Greetings. I would like to know what people favor using.
> > >
> > > By my, admittedly limited, knowledge, the traditional HTML
> >
> > forms will still
> >
> > > work with cocoon as the request will still have access to the data.
> > > Alternatively if I use XMLForms, I'm not sure how much
> >
> > learning effort Id
> >
> > > have to invest. I read the XMLForm tutorial at
> >
> > http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/howto/xmlform-wizard/howto-xmlfor
>
> m-wizard-3.ht
>
> >ml and am still a but unclear how I define how the form will be rendered.
> > Does the user have control over that at all? If I use HTML forms then I
> > would be imbedding a form into an XSL transform which would print out the
> > form for the user.
>
> Slightly beyond my experience (I also use 'conventional' approach), but I
> see
> it as;
>
> 1. The XMLForm generator creates a XML document of the POST request.
> 2. You can aggregate that with other XML documents, static or dynamic.
> 3. Feed that to the transformer(s).
> 4. Output
>
> Meaning, the main advantage would be that you can do a fair amount of logic
> on
> the posted request in XSL (XSL is Turing complete, right?), without writing
> any Java/XSP code. For some people (those who know XSL better than Java)
> that
> is more power with less hazzle.
>
> Niclas
>
> -
> Please check that your question  has not already been answered in the
> FAQ before posting. <http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/faq/index.html>
>
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: <

Re: XMLForms Versus Traditional HTML forms.

[Robert Simmons]

If there is any overlap, I'm not aware of it. Cocoon is XML centric and not
Java centric. What I'm thinking of is a way to drive XML with Java. So if you
had a bean like ...


public class ChangeAge extends Command {
  private int age;
  private String name;

 // getter and setters.
}

Than a java class would spit out the following:



Registration


  



Name:




age
New age



 
  Change Age
 

  

And then the user could use XSLT to dynamically transform the form into what
they wanted.  The problem is that the sitemap could no longer be effectively
used to configure individual actions because they would largely depend upon
what actions exist in the object model of the beans. But I do have a few
ideas. ;)

-- Robert

- Original Message -
From: "Geoff Howard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2003 6:29 AM
Subject: RE: XMLForms Versus Traditional HTML forms.


> > As for forms being in draft, that bothers me.
>
> Don't rely on my word here - that is my memory of what I learned (and
> someone just said that tonight, too right?) looking into xmlform again
about
> 2-3 months ago, so things may have moved on.
>
> > I do, however, have
> > allot of actions I need to write and some common method of outputting the
> > forms automatically based on the command being run would be interesting
to
> > me. I might take a hybrid approach here.
>
> I have recently been converted to the "modular database actions" which may
> provide some inspiration and groundwork for actions hitting session beans
> (assuming that's what you meant).  One xml config file with db table
> structure and a few other tidbits handles my insert, update and deletes
(for
> simple cases) with no coding.  I think they're in 2.0.4 but not positive.
> Modular in this case refers to the use of "input modules".  Christian Haul
> on the list appears to be the author/resident guru on both.
>
> As a side note, I recently worked with Chris to make some trivial
> modifications that allow multipart form file uploads to populate db blobs
> automatically.
>
> >
> > What Id like to have happen is that a user decides to execute a
> > command which
> > hits a generator with the name of the command and any initialization
> > parameters. Then the generator spits out a document containing
> > the structure
> > of needed information from the form. Then the style sheets take over and
> > render the forms and then the user can submit them. To do this I
> > might just
> > borrow the XML form namespace and have the generator spit out
> > valid XML form
> > documents.
>
> This sounds great - is there no overlap with the current stuff?
>
> Geoff
>
>
>
> -
> Please check that your question  has not already been answered in the
> FAQ before posting. <http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/faq/index.html>
>
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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Re: XMLForms Versus Traditional HTML forms.

[Robert Simmons]

Hmm .. I cant seem to even find the samples on my cocoon installation. Are
they not in the current binary distribution ?

-- Robert

- Original Message -
From: "Kirchhoff, Lars" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2003 5:09 AM
Subject: AW: XMLForms Versus Traditional HTML forms.


But why you need then cocoon for? If you just use traditional html
isn't cocoon a bit to much? i'm just curios? Wouldn't it then better
just use jsp or something similar?

The main advantage of cocoon and xmlform for me is still to create
a xml document, which then can be transformed through the pipeline
in nearly every possible format. This means creating applications or
websites, which can serve multiple devices.

Especially for xmlforms  there is a strong seperation of concerns,
which in the first moment and for small application is a bit to
much, but helps to divide the programming of the actual dataflow and
business logic from the presentation layer and keeps the code
manageable. I don't like to mix up any program code with tags from
either xml or html. That's why I use and tried xmlform and don't
feel comfortable with xsp.

Of course you can transform the xmlform tags to html form tags,
as long as there are not to many browser out, which are
understanding xforms, which are still in draft.

BTW does anybody know an reference implementation of an xforms
browser?

regards
Lars


> -Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
> Von: Robert Simmons [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 29. Januar 2003 11:50
> An: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Betreff: Re: XMLForms Versus Traditional HTML forms.
>
>
> Well actually I already have some generators running to fetch
> data from the
> database. I have put that data in manually. Now I want to do
> it dynamically.
> Simplicity wise I should use "conventional" forms, but I am
> not sure if that
> is the "right" way to do it.
>
> -- Robert
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Niclas Hedhman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2003 4:39 AM
> Subject: Re: XMLForms Versus Traditional HTML forms.
>
>
> On Wednesday 29 January 2003 11:16, Robert Simmons wrote:
> > Greetings. I would like to know what people favor using.
> >
> > By my, admittedly limited, knowledge, the traditional HTML
> forms will still
> > work with cocoon as the request will still have access to the data.
> > Alternatively if I use XMLForms, I'm not sure how much
> learning effort Id
> > have to invest. I read the XMLForm tutorial at
> >
> http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/howto/xmlform-wizard/howto-xmlfor
m-wizard-3.ht
>ml and am still a but unclear how I define how the form will be rendered.
> Does the user have control over that at all? If I use HTML forms then I
> would be imbedding a form into an XSL transform which would print out the
> form for the user.

Slightly beyond my experience (I also use 'conventional' approach), but I
see
it as;

1. The XMLForm generator creates a XML document of the POST request.
2. You can aggregate that with other XML documents, static or dynamic.
3. Feed that to the transformer(s).
4. Output

Meaning, the main advantage would be that you can do a fair amount of logic
on
the posted request in XSL (XSL is Turing complete, right?), without writing
any Java/XSP code. For some people (those who know XSL better than Java)
that
is more power with less hazzle.

Niclas

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Re: XMLForms Versus Traditional HTML forms.

[Robert Simmons]

Theoretically, but if you were trying to deliver an action driven system,
this would be difficult. You would have to validate inside the pipeline and
that would be problematic for a number of reasons. You would have to write
some sort of custom validator. The problem here is that configuration is
being done at the sitemap level and that is resource intensive. IT would be
much more efficient if you could drop in a set of beans, have a Java class
read them via introspection and then generate forms based upon the needs of
that command. Then you would have a command driven architecture that would be
quickly adaptable. all you have to do is drop in another command (a bean
object) and viola, a new form gets spit out the far end. I will screw with
this and see if I can get it to work. Call it "reflexive form generation" =)

-- Robert

- Original Message -
From: "Geoff Howard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2003 6:06 AM
Subject: RE: XMLForms Versus Traditional HTML forms.


> also there's supposed to be support for validation, error handling, and
> persistence across calls, right?
>
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Geoff Howard [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2003 11:59 PM
> > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Subject: RE: XMLForms Versus Traditional HTML forms.
> >
> >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: Robert Simmons [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > >
> > > As for multi-content, I could easily write a transform that
> > > converts things
> > > to WML based forms. Its a matter of taste. Its also a matter of
> > > necessity. I
> > > have already spent too long working on the presentation layer to
> > > my project
> > > and I don't care to invest another month. I am not merely a
> > learner but a
> > > professional with tight deadlines. I'm not sure its worth the
> > > extra effort.
> > > But the "not sure" is why I posted the question. If I was sure,
> > I wouldn't
> > > have posted.
> >
> > One potential upside is the fact that XMLForms uses beans for the
> > datamodel
> > (I think).  that being the case, I have assumed there'd be a way to let
> > ejb's fill that role (which based on past discussions I assume
> > you're using
> > here) and you'd get the binding to/from the form for free as you
> > can in jsp.
> >
> > >
> > > Another thing is if it is in draft than that would be one reason
> > > for me to do
> > > it the old way. Real business applications require something that
> > > works. That
> > > isn't always the same thing as something that is "cool".
> >
> > I've not used xmlform yet because of the draft status and the time to
> > learn - same issues you raise.  Looks quite promising though,
> > especially if
> > the bean hunch pans out.
> >
> >
> >
> > -
> > Please check that your question  has not already been answered in the
> > FAQ before posting. <http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/faq/index.html>
> >
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > For additional commands, e-mail:   <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> -
> Please check that your question  has not already been answered in the
> FAQ before posting. <http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/faq/index.html>
>
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Re: XMLForms Versus Traditional HTML forms.

[Robert Simmons]

Well, if you want my advice stay away from entity beans. They are evil in the
extreme. As for forms being in draft, that bothers me. I do, however, have
allot of actions I need to write and some common method of outputting the
forms automatically based on the command being run would be interesting to
me. I might take a hybrid approach here.

What Id like to have happen is that a user decides to execute a command which
hits a generator with the name of the command and any initialization
parameters. Then the generator spits out a document containing the structure
of needed information from the form. Then the style sheets take over and
render the forms and then the user can submit them. To do this I might just
borrow the XML form namespace and have the generator spit out valid XML form
documents.

Just thinking out loud.

-- Robert


- Original Message -
From: "Geoff Howard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2003 5:59 AM
Subject: RE: XMLForms Versus Traditional HTML forms.


> > -Original Message-
> > From: Robert Simmons [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> >
> > As for multi-content, I could easily write a transform that
> > converts things
> > to WML based forms. Its a matter of taste. Its also a matter of
> > necessity. I
> > have already spent too long working on the presentation layer to
> > my project
> > and I don't care to invest another month. I am not merely a learner but a
> > professional with tight deadlines. I'm not sure its worth the
> > extra effort.
> > But the "not sure" is why I posted the question. If I was sure, I
wouldn't
> > have posted.
>
> One potential upside is the fact that XMLForms uses beans for the datamodel
> (I think).  that being the case, I have assumed there'd be a way to let
> ejb's fill that role (which based on past discussions I assume you're using
> here) and you'd get the binding to/from the form for free as you can in
jsp.
>
> >
> > Another thing is if it is in draft than that would be one reason
> > for me to do
> > it the old way. Real business applications require something that
> > works. That
> > isn't always the same thing as something that is "cool".
>
> I've not used xmlform yet because of the draft status and the time to
> learn - same issues you raise.  Looks quite promising though, especially if
> the bean hunch pans out.
>
>
>
> -
> Please check that your question  has not already been answered in the
> FAQ before posting. <http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/faq/index.html>
>
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> For additional commands, e-mail:   <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>


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Re: XMLForms Versus Traditional HTML forms.

[Robert Simmons]

Lets not lump cocoon to "XMLForms or no XMLForms." Nor should we pick out any
other one feature of cocoon and say that if you don't use this feature you
shouldn't use cocoon. Nor should we say something like "if you aren't going
pure XML XSL XSP that you shouldn't use cocoon. Cocoon is a toolkit and you
should pick those tools appropriate to your use. I chose cocoon over JSP
because I get the multi format content and clear separation of logic and
presentation. To me, a form is presentation.

As for multi-content, I could easily write a transform that converts things
to WML based forms. Its a matter of taste. Its also a matter of necessity. I
have already spent too long working on the presentation layer to my project
and I don't care to invest another month. I am not merely a learner but a
professional with tight deadlines. I'm not sure its worth the extra effort.
But the "not sure" is why I posted the question. If I was sure, I wouldn't
have posted.

Another thing is if it is in draft than that would be one reason for me to do
it the old way. Real business applications require something that works. That
isn't always the same thing as something that is "cool".

-- Robert

- Original Message -
From: "Kirchhoff, Lars" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2003 5:09 AM
Subject: AW: XMLForms Versus Traditional HTML forms.


But why you need then cocoon for? If you just use traditional html
isn't cocoon a bit to much? i'm just curios? Wouldn't it then better
just use jsp or something similar?

The main advantage of cocoon and xmlform for me is still to create
a xml document, which then can be transformed through the pipeline
in nearly every possible format. This means creating applications or
websites, which can serve multiple devices.

Especially for xmlforms  there is a strong seperation of concerns,
which in the first moment and for small application is a bit to
much, but helps to divide the programming of the actual dataflow and
business logic from the presentation layer and keeps the code
manageable. I don't like to mix up any program code with tags from
either xml or html. That's why I use and tried xmlform and don't
feel comfortable with xsp.

Of course you can transform the xmlform tags to html form tags,
as long as there are not to many browser out, which are
understanding xforms, which are still in draft.

BTW does anybody know an reference implementation of an xforms
browser?

regards
Lars


> -Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
> Von: Robert Simmons [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 29. Januar 2003 11:50
> An: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Betreff: Re: XMLForms Versus Traditional HTML forms.
>
>
> Well actually I already have some generators running to fetch
> data from the
> database. I have put that data in manually. Now I want to do
> it dynamically.
> Simplicity wise I should use "conventional" forms, but I am
> not sure if that
> is the "right" way to do it.
>
> -- Robert
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Niclas Hedhman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2003 4:39 AM
> Subject: Re: XMLForms Versus Traditional HTML forms.
>
>
> On Wednesday 29 January 2003 11:16, Robert Simmons wrote:
> > Greetings. I would like to know what people favor using.
> >
> > By my, admittedly limited, knowledge, the traditional HTML
> forms will still
> > work with cocoon as the request will still have access to the data.
> > Alternatively if I use XMLForms, I'm not sure how much
> learning effort Id
> > have to invest. I read the XMLForm tutorial at
> >
> http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/howto/xmlform-wizard/howto-xmlfor
m-wizard-3.ht
>ml and am still a but unclear how I define how the form will be rendered.
> Does the user have control over that at all? If I use HTML forms then I
> would be imbedding a form into an XSL transform which would print out the
> form for the user.

Slightly beyond my experience (I also use 'conventional' approach), but I
see
it as;

1. The XMLForm generator creates a XML document of the POST request.
2. You can aggregate that with other XML documents, static or dynamic.
3. Feed that to the transformer(s).
4. Output

Meaning, the main advantage would be that you can do a fair amount of logic
on
the posted request in XSL (XSL is Turing complete, right?), without writing
any Java/XSP code. For some people (those who know XSL better than Java)
that
is more power with less hazzle.

Niclas

-
Please check that your question  has not already been answered in the
FAQ before posting. <http://xml.apache.org/c

Re: XMLForms Versus Traditional HTML forms.

[Robert Simmons]

Well actually I already have some generators running to fetch data from the
database. I have put that data in manually. Now I want to do it dynamically.
Simplicity wise I should use "conventional" forms, but I am not sure if that
is the "right" way to do it.

-- Robert

- Original Message -
From: "Niclas Hedhman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2003 4:39 AM
Subject: Re: XMLForms Versus Traditional HTML forms.


On Wednesday 29 January 2003 11:16, Robert Simmons wrote:
> Greetings. I would like to know what people favor using.
>
> By my, admittedly limited, knowledge, the traditional HTML forms will still
> work with cocoon as the request will still have access to the data.
> Alternatively if I use XMLForms, I'm not sure how much learning effort Id
> have to invest. I read the XMLForm tutorial at
> http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/howto/xmlform-wizard/howto-xmlform-wizard-3.ht
>ml and am still a but unclear how I define how the form will be rendered.
> Does the user have control over that at all? If I use HTML forms then I
> would be imbedding a form into an XSL transform which would print out the
> form for the user.

Slightly beyond my experience (I also use 'conventional' approach), but I see
it as;

1. The XMLForm generator creates a XML document of the POST request.
2. You can aggregate that with other XML documents, static or dynamic.
3. Feed that to the transformer(s).
4. Output

Meaning, the main advantage would be that you can do a fair amount of logic
on
the posted request in XSL (XSL is Turing complete, right?), without writing
any Java/XSP code. For some people (those who know XSL better than Java) that
is more power with less hazzle.

Niclas

-
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XMLForms Versus Traditional HTML forms.

[Robert Simmons]

Greetings. I would like to know what people favor 
using. 
 
By my, admittedly limited, knowledge, the 
traditional HTML forms will still work with cocoon as the request will still 
have access to the data. Alternatively if I use XMLForms, I'm not sure how much 
learning effort Id have to invest. I read the XMLForm tutorial at http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/howto/xmlform-wizard/howto-xmlform-wizard-3.html and 
am still a but unclear how I define how the form will be rendered. Does the user 
have control over that at all? If I use HTML forms then I would be imbedding a 
form into an XSL transform which would print out the form for the user. 

 
So basically I am asking what reasons are there to 
use XMLForms. 
 
-- Robert

Re: XML - XSL Editors?

[Robert Simmons]

Lol .. the community is really good I think. Lots I havent figured out yet
thats irritating me though. Like why the forms sample in the cocoon war
doesnt match the same constructs as the XMLForm tutorial at
http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/howto/xmlform-wizard/howto-xmlform-wizard-3.html
.

Prob is that the interface is pretty irrelevant to my book but now Ive spent
two weeks workign on it .. UGH Beginnign to think I shoulda jsut gone
quick and dirty with JSP.

-- Robert

- Original Message -
From: "Antonio Gallardo" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2003 3:58 AM
Subject: Re: XML - XSL Editors?


> Will you be checking jedit.org? Please almost include it as a "usefull
> link". I saw many books about Java and XML and all they use windows. And
> they totally ignore some of the wonderfull applications that people can
> use for free.
>
> I hope you will speak good about Cocoon and is fabulous community with
> 7-24 support "on-line". in your book. ;-)
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Antonio Gallardo.
>
> Robert Simmons dijo:
> > Hmm, well my book has very little to do with cocoon. Its an advanced
> > java book. id be suprised if I mentioned more than a couple pages on
> > cocoon. Basically the book will talk about various java enterprise
> > programing and I will be using cocoon for the interface to the remote
> > ejbs.
>
> >
> > -- Robert
> >
> > - Original Message -
> > From: "Antonio Gallardo" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2003 2:24 AM
> > Subject: Re: XML - XSL Editors?
> >
> >
> >> Hey?!
> >>
> >> Maybe and this article can be usefull for you and your work on the
> >> book:
> >>
> >>
> >
http://community.jedit.org/modules.php?op=modload&name=news&file=article&sid=
> > 202
> >>
> >> By the way, what is the name of your future book?
> >>
> >> Antonio Gallardo.
> >>
> >> Antonio Gallardo dijo:
> >> > Robert Simmons dijo:
> >> >> What are the best XML and XSLT editors on the market. I'm looking
> >> for something that is easy to use and offers the chance to edit XSL
> >> in a WYSIWYG style. I tried XML Spy but it is not so easy to use. I
> >> couldn't even figure out how to get an XSL preview to work
> >> properly. It wanted me to create an sps file in order to show the
> >> transformation but in their sps editor I couldn't even tell it to
> >> use a file that I had already written. Way weird. I also tried
> >> eXcelon with is much easier to use. I want to know what other
> >> options are out there.
> >> >
> >> > I dont know if this is the best. But I use jEdit to write Cocoon
> >> projects. It has a plug-in for XML, XSL highlighting and another
> >> plug-in for XSLT tranformation that make it very easy to check what
> >> your XSLT stylesheet do. Best of all is OpenSource and because it is
> >> coded in Java runs in any platform. Also for file Save you can
> >> configure the diferents char formats:
> >> >
> >> > ISO-8859-1, UTF-8 and more.
> >> >
> >> > There is also a plug-in to manage all your project.
> >> >
> >> > more info:
> >> >
> >> > http://www.jedit.org/
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Antonio Gallardo
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > -
> >> Please check that your question  has not already been answered in
> >> the FAQ before posting.
> >> <http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/faq/index.html>
> >> >
> >> > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> >> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> For additional commands,
> >> e-mail:   <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> -
> >> Please check that your question  has not already been answered in the
> >> FAQ before posting. <http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/faq/index.html>
> >>
> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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> >>
> >
> >
> > -
> > Please check that your question  has not already been answered in the
> > FAQ before posting. <http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/faq/index.html>
> >
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>
>
>
>
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Re: How to open 2 windows?

[Robert Simmons]

I had a great page today. The dumb shits put a JavaScript action on closing
the page that popped up a dialog saying "if you want to stay at our page,
press ok. If you don't want to leave press cancel." The only way you could
leave that page was to kill the browser with the task manager. They may think
that is smart but I know one thing, Ill never buy a single product from them.
I don't remember the URL though so don't ask. =)

-- Robert


- Original Message -
From: "Niclas Hedhman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2003 3:31 AM
Subject: Re: How to open 2 windows?


On Wednesday 29 January 2003 05:21, Robert Simmons wrote:
> Just a warning. There has been a study recently that quite well confirms
> that using popups in a commercial web site is a good way to drive traffic
> AWAY from that site. Personally, they annoy the shit out of me. If I really
> needed to get my penis enlarged Id look it up on google.de. Getting offered
> it from half the web sites on the internet could be bad for self
> confidence. =)

I agree ( where do you can you get the enlargement, you said?? ;o) )

A lot of people disables pop-ups, or (like me) have the browser ask me if I
want it. First one on a site, I consider ok. If commercial, then permenantly
turned off for that site.

I can't turn it off all the time, since some sincere sites are using this
technique, for other things than adverts.

Niclas

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Re: Cocoon Job opps in Frankfurt, Germany

[Robert Simmons]

Ahhh ... well ... Im a tad more expensive than that. =) I was gettign 80 USD
per hour in colorado before I moved to germany and took a perm job.

-- Robert

- Original Message -
From: "Niclas Hedhman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2003 3:28 AM
Subject: Re: Cocoon Job opps in Frankfurt, Germany


On Tuesday 28 January 2003 22:32, Jeremy Aston wrote:
> The UK rate has dropped significantly.  You are really looking at something
> like £35-£40 per hour (as opposed to £60-£70 ph in the past couple of
> years. $500ph is v. reasonable.

Not ph, per day

Well, I live in a low-cost country (Malaysia) which is 50-75% lower cost of
living than northern Europe (Sweden, Germany is my experience) at large. On
top of that, I don't pay much income tax (<5%).
Can really recommend it...


> At the end of the day these angencies never put a rate since they want to
> get as good a person as cheap as possible!

So do I ;o)  A average programmer here would cost me ~USD1000 a month, a top
notch one with special competency would be about twice that.


Niclas

> jez
>
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Niclas Hedhman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > Sent: 28 January 2003 05:13
> > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Subject: Re: Cocoon Job opps in Frankfurt, Germany
> >
> > On Tuesday 28 January 2003 09:20, Jeremy Aston wrote:
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > I keep seeing ads for contractors based in Frankfurt on a UK based job
> > > site...
> >
> > http://www.it.jobserve.com/jobserve/searchresults.asp?jobType=*&d=
>
> 5&order=R
>
> >a nk&page=1&q=cocoon
>
> They almost all list "Rate: Market". What is that roughly? Just curious
> what it pays to be "employed" nowadays in this kind of field...
>
> Anyone willing to reveal?
>
> Me? I live in the "low cost" country so I charge only(?) around $500 per
> day,
> as consultant.
>
> Niclas
>
> > I have tried to get in there as a UK based person (and Cocooon book
> > co-author) but the company are 100% set on having an on site person and
> > no remote workers/software houses/cooperatives.  I can't move to Germany
> > so
>
> am
>
> > out of the picture - bah!  These people have advertised reguarly over the
> > past 4-6 months so the work must be ongoing.
> >
> > If anyone does get in there and find they can put in a word for remote
> > workers (I will go to a couple of times a month for a couple of days)
> > then I'm here!
> >
> > rgds
> >
> > Jeremy
>
> -
> Please check that your question  has not already been answered in the
> FAQ before posting. <http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/faq/index.html>
>
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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>
>
> __
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Everything you'll ever need on one web page
> from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts
> http://uk.my.yahoo.com
>
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Re: XML - XSL Editors?

[Robert Simmons]

Hmm, well my book has very little to do with cocoon. Its an advanced java
book. id be suprised if I mentioned more than a couple pages on cocoon.
Basically the book will talk about various java enterprise programing and I
will be using cocoon for the interface to the remote ejbs.

-- Robert

- Original Message -
From: "Antonio Gallardo" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2003 2:24 AM
Subject: Re: XML - XSL Editors?


> Hey?!
>
> Maybe and this article can be usefull for you and your work on the book:
>
>
http://community.jedit.org/modules.php?op=modload&name=news&file=article&sid=
202
>
> By the way, what is the name of your future book?
>
> Antonio Gallardo.
>
> Antonio Gallardo dijo:
> > Robert Simmons dijo:
> >> What are the best XML and XSLT editors on the market. I'm looking for
> >> something that is easy to use and offers the chance to edit XSL in a
> >> WYSIWYG style. I tried XML Spy but it is not so easy to use. I
> >> couldn't even figure out how to get an XSL preview to work properly.
> >> It wanted me to create an sps file in order to show the transformation
> >> but in their sps editor I couldn't even tell it to use a file that I
> >> had already written. Way weird. I also tried eXcelon with is much
> >> easier to use. I want to know what other options are out there.
> >
> > I dont know if this is the best. But I use jEdit to write Cocoon
> > projects. It has a plug-in for XML, XSL highlighting and another plug-in
> > for XSLT tranformation that make it very easy to check what your XSLT
> > stylesheet do. Best of all is OpenSource and because it is coded in Java
> > runs in any platform. Also for file Save you can configure the diferents
> > char formats:
> >
> > ISO-8859-1, UTF-8 and more.
> >
> > There is also a plug-in to manage all your project.
> >
> > more info:
> >
> > http://www.jedit.org/
> >
> >
> > Antonio Gallardo
> >
> >
> >
> > -
> > Please check that your question  has not already been answered in the
> > FAQ before posting. <http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/faq/index.html>
> >
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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>
>
>
>
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Re: Cocoon Job opps in Frankfurt, Germany

[Robert Simmons]

Interesting. Well I wouldn't have enough cocoon knowledge quite yet to do a
contract in it. Perhaps in a couple more months of study. I'm getting
decidedly sick of working for pennies for some stupid company more interested
in politics than product. I'm seriously considering branching out into
contracting when my book hits the market.

-- Robert

- Original Message -
From: "Jeremy Aston" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2003 1:33 AM
Subject: RE: Cocoon Job opps in Frankfurt, Germany


> These roles come up on jobserve.com, a UK based service for recruitment
> agencies.  I just have a savedsearch that emails me if Cocoon comes up as a
> keyword in each day's listings. If you follow the link below then you will
> note that all the agencies are UK based.  It is possible the client is
using
> agencies based in other European countries but Jobserve only really covers
> the UK and Australia based agencies.  Of course many of the UK agencies
have
> international sections, plus seeing as the role is in Frankfurt there is a
> good chance that the client may be an international org in the financial
> sector and thus might use UK based agencies by default.
>
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Robert Simmons [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > Sent: 28 January 2003 21:17
> > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Subject: Re: Cocoon Job opps in Frankfurt, Germany
> >
> >
> > Strange that I did a search on gulp.de and monster.de for Cocoon
> > and came up
> > empty. Where are you guys hearing about these contracts?
> >
> > -- Robert
> >
> > - Original Message -
> > From: "Jeremy Aston" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2003 3:32 PM
> > Subject: RE: Cocoon Job opps in Frankfurt, Germany
> >
> >
> > > The UK rate has dropped significantly.  You are really looking
> > at something
> > > like £35-£40 per hour (as opposed to £60-£70 ph in the past couple of
> > years.
> > > $500ph is v. reasonable.
> > >
> > > At the end of the day these angencies never put a rate since
> > they want to
> > > get as good a person as cheap as possible!
> > >
> > > jez
> > >
> > > > -Original Message-
> > > > From: Niclas Hedhman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > > > Sent: 28 January 2003 05:13
> > > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > > Subject: Re: Cocoon Job opps in Frankfurt, Germany
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Tuesday 28 January 2003 09:20, Jeremy Aston wrote:
> > > > > Hi,
> > > > >
> > > > > I keep seeing ads for contractors based in Frankfurt on a
> > UK based job
> > > > > site...
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > http://www.it.jobserve.com/jobserve/searchresults.asp?jobType=*&d=
> > > 5&order=R
> > > >a nk&page=1&q=cocoon
> > >
> > > They almost all list "Rate: Market". What is that roughly? Just curious
> > what
> > > it pays to be "employed" nowadays in this kind of field...
> > >
> > > Anyone willing to reveal?
> > >
> > > Me? I live in the "low cost" country so I charge only(?) around $500
per
> > > day,
> > > as consultant.
> > >
> > > Niclas
> > >
> > > > I have tried to get in there as a UK based person (and Cocooon book
> > > > co-author) but the company are 100% set on having an on site
> > person and
> > no
> > > > remote workers/software houses/cooperatives.  I can't move to
> > Germany so
> > > am
> > > > out of the picture - bah!  These people have advertised
> > reguarly over the
> > > > past 4-6 months so the work must be ongoing.
> > > >
> > > > If anyone does get in there and find they can put in a word for
remote
> > > > workers (I will go to a couple of times a month for a couple of days)
> > then
> > > > I'm here!
> > > >
> > > > rgds
> > > >
> > > > Jeremy
> > >
> > >
> > > -
> > > Please check that your question  has not already been answered in the
> > > FAQ before posting. <http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/faq/index.html>
> > >
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]&g

XML - XSL Editors?

[Robert Simmons]

What are the best XML and XSLT editors on the 
market. I'm looking for something that is easy to use and offers the chance to 
edit XSL in a WYSIWYG style. I tried XML Spy but it is not so easy to use. I 
couldn't even figure out how to get an XSL preview to work properly. It wanted 
me to create an sps file in order to show the transformation but in their sps 
editor I couldn't even tell it to use a file that I had already written. Way 
weird. I also tried eXcelon with is much easier to use. I want to know what 
other options are out there. 
 
-- Robert

Re: proposal: "The Newbies Competence Center"

[Robert Simmons]

Incidentally, I find that when I hit the Wiki page, I don't see half of the 
left menu until I pass my mouse over the links. IE6 problem?
 
-- Robert

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Derek Hohls 
  
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  
  Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2003 8:00 
  AM
  Subject: Re: proposal: "The Newbies 
  Competence Center"
  
  I think that Miles' outline below reflects a very good way
  of organising the primary Cocoon site.  I am not sure that
  it is completely appropriate for new users (yes, I still 
  think there is a distinction between a user and a 'hard core'
  developer - see later replies).  
  The "First Steps" chapter listed below is the one that needs
  some thought and attention.  My feeling is that we need to
  focus on the problems that needs to be solved, rather than
  a lengthy description of what is *possible* with Cocoon.  
  This should be difficult to draw up; there are many common 
  problems for web developers and it should not be that hard
  to create some example solutions.
   
  Comes back to what I am comfortable with "learning by seeing
  and then doing"... the light of in-depth understanding usually
  dawns a little later on.
  >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 27/01/2003 10:10:48 
  >>>Tony Collen wrote:>On Mon, 27 Jan 2003, SAXESS - 
  Hussayn Dabbous wrote:>>  >>>o There was 
  an idea to redesign the cocoon documentation entry 
  page>>   and provide chapters 
  like:>>>>   1) First 
  steps>>   2) User's Manual>>   3) 
  User's Reference>>   4) 
  Architecture>>   5) Developer's 
  Guide>>    >>>>This is good. 
  HOWEVER, occasionally the line between "user" and>"developer" gets 
  blurred, especially when a user realizes they need to>develop a custom 
  component.>>All too often, I've gone to the developer section 
  looking for information>that was actually in the user guide, and vice 
  versa.>I totally agree.  In fact, this is an item that I took 
  issue with in Lajos and Jeremy's book: which "Generators" section should I 
  be looking in?  I also don't know that a quick reference and a manual 
  must be distinct items.  For a printed book, this makes a lot of 
  sense.  But the web is inherently a quick reference -- bouncing from 
  relevant topic to relevant topic.  This is an area where I think the 
  existing documentation (for some components) shines.  If you take a 
  look at the Request XSP logicsheet (http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/userdocs/xsp/request.html), 
  this is an example of what I mean.  If the page simply had quick, 
  in-page links to description, usage, examples, and quick reference, you 
  would be done.  A user looking up information says, "Hmmm, I know I 
  want to use a serializer so I'll go to the serializer section."  From 
  there, they can select if they want an example, an API lookup, etc.  
  Quick references exist because no one wants to haul around five hundred 
  page books.  But if you are on the web, you already have access to a 
  million page book.  The same rules don't apply.However, I 
  think the above list has merit if you clearly define what "development" 
  is.  I tend to think that *anyone* who installs Cocoon and edits 
  something to be a developer rather than a user.  The users, in my 
  mind, are the folks using the web browser.  There are, however, 
  different classes of developer.  For example, if you write an XSP 
  document, you've in essense written a generator.  No, they didn't 
  call javac themselves, but it's only slightly different.  The 
  difference mainly lies in its relative ease, not in the intent.  If 
  you set up a pipeline in the sitemap, what are you if not a developer 
  assembling components together?On the other hand, making changes 
  to the Flow engine, the cache store, the sitemap parser, etc. are 
  definitely different from writing your own transformer.  The 
  distinction in the documentation should be "here are things you can do for 
  your own benefit that affect no one else" and "here are things that 
  fundamentally affect the requirements for other components."For 
  example:1) Architecture Overview/Primer/First Steps  a) Why 
  Cocoon exists  b) Quick start installation  c) Hello World 
  (XSP document going through a simple transformer and serializing to 
  HTML)  d) Very brief introduction to sitemaps, generators, etc. by 
  explaining Hello World2) The Cocoon servlet  a) 
  Installation instructions    i) 
  Tomcat    ii) Jetty    iii) 
  JBoss    iv) etc.  b) Web app 
  layout    i) Configuration locations (logkit.xconf, 
  cocoon.xconf, etc.)  a. 
  cocoon.xconf  b. 
  logkit.xconf  c. etc.    
  ii) Library locations and itemization  a. 
  lib  b. classes    iii)

Preloading parts of cocoon.

[Robert Simmons]

Greetings. Whenever I change a page in my sitemap 
and redeploy, I notice that the first time I hit a page it takes cocoon a few 
seconds to start the page. Is there any way we can get cocoon to preprocess this 
stuff at deployment time so that the users only see instant results 
?
 
-- Robert

Re: proposal: "The Newbies Competence Center"

[Robert Simmons]

Hmm .. where do I find this?

-- Robert

- Original Message -
From: "SAXESS - Hussayn Dabbous" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2003 3:49 PM
Subject: Re: proposal: "The Newbies Competence Center"


> Hy,
>
> the "Cocoon Competence Center" is Born ;-)
>
> I have changed the link on the WIki leftMenu
> from "new to cocoon?" into "For Beginners" and
> added the "cocoon in 15 minutes:" page.
>
> I invented a first set of metadata:
>
> - TARGET-AUDIENCE: beginners
> - COCOON-RELEASES: 2.0.3, 2.0.4
> - AUTHOR: Hussayn Dabbous
> - AUTHOR-CONTACT: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> - REVIEWED-BY:
> - REVIEWER-CONTACT:
>
> Maybe this needs review.
>
> regards, hussayn
> --
> Dr. Hussayn Dabbous
> SAXESS Software Design GmbH
> Neuenhöfer Allee 125
> 50935 Köln
> Telefon: +49-221-56011-0
> Fax: +49-221-56011-20
> E-Mail:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
> -
> Please check that your question  has not already been answered in the
> FAQ before posting. <http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/faq/index.html>
>
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Re: proposal: "The Newbies Competence Center"

[Robert Simmons]

I don't think that the word "newbie" is such a stigma. People know when they
are newbies and not. Rarely do people take it offensively unless its an
outside person telling them that they are a newbie. In fact people can take
it tongue in cheek as the "for Dummies" or "Idiots guide to ... " books show.
Despite their tongue in cheek titles they are amazingly popular. However, the
documentation we are proposing is not just targeted at newbies but eventually
will span the spectrum of users. For this reason I think the title you
proposed is the right one. As to using Wiki, I never have but I will state
that id like the documentation to actually be served by cocoon. The benefits
to that is the multi-content publishing framework at its best. Users can get
PDFs or post script or any number of other types of content as well as the
surfed content.

What I would like to see now is a style guide for XML documents that will be
common to all published cocoon info. In this manner we can apply a standard
XSLT transform to all documents and the writers would just be using XML to
accomplish the task. This would give us allot of flexibility. What I am
talking about is a custom schema (or borrowed one) that all of the
documentation authors can validate against and that the template authors can
use to transform. Then I would suggest that the full cocoon samples and
documentation be put through this framework. It would take some thought
because you want the ability to have it referencable and indexable. For
example, I should be able to create a sitemap entry that will combine all
cocoon docs into one big page and transform it into PDF.

Its always best if you start with architecture and start filling things in.

-- Robert

- Original Message -
From: "SAXESS - Hussayn Dabbous" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2003 11:48 AM
Subject: Re: proposal: "The Newbies Competence Center"


> seems as if my round up generqted even more input ;-)
> thanks to all of you.
>
> so what do we have now? i reround up here:
>
> 1.) there is a strong push towards "role based" documentation
> 2.) there is a strong recommendation to use cocoon-wiki
> 3.) the discussion roles on over the whole documentation set
>
> hmm... seems so as if this gets a bigger task, than expected ;-)
>
> by the way, i looked up the word "newbie". It may be of interst,
> that this is the short from of "new boy". Hey, we can't do that ...
>
> I'd recommend to rename this to "The Cocoon Competence Center"
> and start with the "beginners" section on the cocoon wiki...
>
> any doubts ?
>
> regards, Hussayn
>
>
> Derek Hohls wrote:
> > This is getting periously close to documentation ;-)
> > Seriously, this is the kind of description that is incredibly
> > useful to have up front - never mind arguing over who should
> > have what skills and how they should work together ... that
> > is a project/company issue and will differ from case-case
> > (the current view is that most people are multi-skilled anyway)
> > BUT we can all agree on what skills are needed to work
> > with Cocoon and can link our documentation (see other mail
> > on wiki classifications) to those skills; what Peter elsewhere
> > has called "role based documentation".
> >
> > It will be of great help to the new user to see what he/she might
> > be expected to know (or learn) before getting up in the
> > intricacies of sitemaps, generators and the rest of the jargon!
> >
> >  >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 27/01/2003 11:59:41 >>>
> > Tony Collen wrote:
> >
> >  >For instance, with a typical installation of Cocoon, we could define
the
> >  >following roles:
> >  >
> >  >- Content Creator.  This person authors XML for the site to be
> >  >transformed.  This role works when most of the content is static.
> >  >However, if a lot of the data is being pulled out of a database, they
> >  >would be in charge of something like data entry into the database, etc.
> >  >
> >
> > I've been seeing this role work out well in practice.  There is
> > grumbling when they can't mark up their content significantly like they
> > used to in Frontpage or Dreamweaver, but after seeing a demo, they
> > usually acquiesce.
> >
> >  >- Graphic/Web designer.  This person is in charge of the style of
> >  >the site.  Not only do they come up with how the site looks through the
> >  >design of the final HTML, but they also write the XSL to transform the
> >  >content into the desired format.  Sometimes this person 

Re: proposal: "The Newbies Competence Center"

[Robert Simmons]

Id be happy to write up some stuff on connecting to EJB servers now that I
have actually figured out how to do it.

-- Robert

- Original Message -
From: "Niclas Hedhman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2003 8:02 AM
Subject: Re: proposal: "The Newbies Competence Center"


On Tuesday 28 January 2003 15:00, Derek Hohls wrote:
> The "First Steps" chapter listed below is the one that needs
> some thought and attention.  My feeling is that we need to
> focus on the problems that needs to be solved, rather than
> a lengthy description of what is *possible* with Cocoon.

Good point!

If that is also made from the "background of user" aspect, so that;

"You know XML/XSL and want to publish static content - click here"

"You are a DB developer who wants to expose XML data - click here"

"You are Stefano Mazzocchi and want to - you are in the wrong area"


Base it on use cases and add "1 hour or less" exercises.
I assume that a pre-condition here is a "suitable" distro to start from.

Niclas

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