Re: newbies documentation - yet another wiki?

2003-01-27 Thread Niclas Hedhman 
On Monday 27 January 2003 20:47, Peter Flynn wrote:
> Manos wrote:
> > No, I was talking about Microsoft Office XP not 2k; it does have native
> > XML support. For example "You can save Microsoft Excel 2002 spreadsheets
> > and Microsoft Access 2002 database tables, queries, and views as
> > XML."[1].
> >
> > Please not that I'm *not* an M$ fun ;-)
>
> Office-11 will have native XML support (ie it will be able to edit an
> XML document according to a Schema (not a DTD) you provide, not just
> its own internal one).

Office-11 ?? Does that refer to the YEAR it will be released, as has been 
custom before??

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Re: newbies documentation - yet another wiki?

2003-01-27 Thread Robert Simmons 
Nice software. Too bad I don't have a thousand Euros to blow to buy it.

-- Robert


- Original Message -
From: "SAXESS - Hussayn Dabbous" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, January 27, 2003 1:37 PM
Subject: Re: newbies documentation - yet another wiki?


> i personally enjoy XML-SPY, although it's tied to MS...
> regards, hussayn
>
> Robert Simmons wrote:
> > Ya, I know MSoffice can save into HTML. I want it to save into XML.
> >
> > -- Robert
> >
> > - Original Message -
> > From: "Emmanuil Batsis (Manos)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Monday, January 27, 2003 1:31 PM
> > Subject: Re: newbies documentation - yet another wiki?
> >
> >
> >
> >>Star/OpenOffice as well as the new MSOffice.
> >>
> >>Then again, WYSIWYG HTML Editors -> Tidy works great too.
> >>
> >>Manos
> >>
> >>Robert Simmons wrote:
> >>
> >>>What I don't get is why not put the new documentation in cocoon
> >>
> > distribution?
> >
> >>>Everything else is in there: *smirk* Cocoon is built for web publishing,
> >>
> > we
> >
> >>>could conspire to write volumes right in the product. Which reminds me,
> >>>anyone know a word processor that saves primarily in XML and is good?
> >>>
> >>>-- Robert
> >>>
> >>>- Original Message -
> >>>From: "Bertrand Delacretaz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >>>To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >>>Sent: Monday, January 27, 2003 10:14 AM
> >>>Subject: Re: newbies documentation - yet another wiki?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>Hi Hussayn,
> >>>>
> >>>>I mostly agree with your point of view, except on the "separate wiki"
> >>>>thing. (And by the way, thanks a lot for your "less talking, more
doing"
> >>>>approach!)
> >>>>
> >>>>What worries me *a lot* with starting yet another documentation site is
> >>>>the dispersion of resources - wouldn't it be much more efficient to
have
> >>>>you, Derek and possibly others joing the (mythical) Cocoon docs team
> >>>>with the aim of creating these newbies docs?
> >>>>
> >>>>See also http://wiki.cocoondev.org/Wiki.jsp?page=CocoonDocsPlan, I
think
> >>>>your concept can fit nicely into this.
> >>>>
> >>>>I'm convinced that it is possible to create the "newbies competence
> >>>>center" that you mention *inside* the existing wiki - a well-designed
> >>>>start page and navigation should help newbies find their way.
> >>>>
> >>>>Maybe this needs some improvements to the existing wiki system, to help
> >>>>newbies find pages that are targeted for them, namely:
> >>>>
> >>>>a) Being able to search the wiki for "NCC pages only" or "everything"
so
> >>>>that newbies are not distracted by deep technical discussions.
> >>>>
> >>>>b) Being able to clearly label pages as being part of the NCC,
different
> >>>>color, icons or something.
> >>>>
> >>>>This might well be possible with JSPwiki, maybe by writing some kind of
> >>>>extension? We need to ask Steven or the JSPWiki folks if you think this
> >>>>is worth studying.
> >>>>
> >>>>What do you think?
> >>>>Join the party, or throw yet another one? :-)
> >>>>
> >>>>-Bertrand
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>-
> >>>>Please check that your question  has not already been answered in the
> >>>>FAQ before posting. <http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/faq/index.html>
> >>>>
> >>>>To unsubscribe, e-mail: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >>>>For additional commands, e-mail:   <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>-
> >>>Please check that your question  has not already been answered in the
> >>>FAQ before posting. <http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/faq/index.html>
> >>>
> >>>To unsubscribe, e-mail: <[E

Re: newbies documentation - yet another wiki?

2003-01-27 Thread Peter Flynn 
Manos wrote:
> No, I was talking about Microsoft Office XP not 2k; it does have native 
> XML support. For example "You can save Microsoft Excel 2002 spreadsheets 
> and Microsoft Access 2002 database tables, queries, and views as XML."[1].
> 
> Please not that I'm *not* an M$ fun ;-)

Office-11 will have native XML support (ie it will be able to edit an
XML document according to a Schema (not a DTD) you provide, not just
its own internal one).

///Peter


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Re: newbies documentation - yet another wiki?

2003-01-27 Thread Emmanuil Batsis (Manos) 

No, I was talking about Microsoft Office XP not 2k; it does have native 
XML support. For example "You can save Microsoft Excel 2002 spreadsheets 
and Microsoft Access 2002 database tables, queries, and views as XML."[1].

Please not that I'm *not* an M$ fun ;-)

[1] 
http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en-us/dnofftalk/html/office08022001.asp

Cheers,

Manos

Robert Simmons wrote:
Ya, I know MSoffice can save into HTML. I want it to save into XML.

-- Robert

- Original Message -
From: "Emmanuil Batsis (Manos)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, January 27, 2003 1:31 PM
Subject: Re: newbies documentation - yet another wiki?




Star/OpenOffice as well as the new MSOffice.

Then again, WYSIWYG HTML Editors -> Tidy works great too.

Manos

Robert Simmons wrote:


What I don't get is why not put the new documentation in cocoon


distribution?


Everything else is in there: *smirk* Cocoon is built for web publishing,


we


could conspire to write volumes right in the product. Which reminds me,
anyone know a word processor that saves primarily in XML and is good?

-- Robert

- Original Message -
From: "Bertrand Delacretaz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, January 27, 2003 10:14 AM
Subject: Re: newbies documentation - yet another wiki?





Hi Hussayn,

I mostly agree with your point of view, except on the "separate wiki"
thing. (And by the way, thanks a lot for your "less talking, more doing"
approach!)

What worries me *a lot* with starting yet another documentation site is
the dispersion of resources - wouldn't it be much more efficient to have
you, Derek and possibly others joing the (mythical) Cocoon docs team
with the aim of creating these newbies docs?

See also http://wiki.cocoondev.org/Wiki.jsp?page=CocoonDocsPlan, I think
your concept can fit nicely into this.

I'm convinced that it is possible to create the "newbies competence
center" that you mention *inside* the existing wiki - a well-designed
start page and navigation should help newbies find their way.

Maybe this needs some improvements to the existing wiki system, to help
newbies find pages that are targeted for them, namely:

a) Being able to search the wiki for "NCC pages only" or "everything" so
that newbies are not distracted by deep technical discussions.

b) Being able to clearly label pages as being part of the NCC, different
color, icons or something.

This might well be possible with JSPwiki, maybe by writing some kind of
extension? We need to ask Steven or the JSPWiki folks if you think this
is worth studying.

What do you think?
Join the party, or throw yet another one? :-)

-Bertrand


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Re: newbies documentation - yet another wiki?

2003-01-27 Thread SAXESS - Hussayn Dabbous 
i personally enjoy XML-SPY, although it's tied to MS...
regards, hussayn

Robert Simmons wrote:

Ya, I know MSoffice can save into HTML. I want it to save into XML.

-- Robert

- Original Message -
From: "Emmanuil Batsis (Manos)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, January 27, 2003 1:31 PM
Subject: Re: newbies documentation - yet another wiki?




Star/OpenOffice as well as the new MSOffice.

Then again, WYSIWYG HTML Editors -> Tidy works great too.

Manos

Robert Simmons wrote:


What I don't get is why not put the new documentation in cocoon



distribution?


Everything else is in there: *smirk* Cocoon is built for web publishing,



we


could conspire to write volumes right in the product. Which reminds me,
anyone know a word processor that saves primarily in XML and is good?

-- Robert

- Original Message -
From: "Bertrand Delacretaz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, January 27, 2003 10:14 AM
Subject: Re: newbies documentation - yet another wiki?





Hi Hussayn,

I mostly agree with your point of view, except on the "separate wiki"
thing. (And by the way, thanks a lot for your "less talking, more doing"
approach!)

What worries me *a lot* with starting yet another documentation site is
the dispersion of resources - wouldn't it be much more efficient to have
you, Derek and possibly others joing the (mythical) Cocoon docs team
with the aim of creating these newbies docs?

See also http://wiki.cocoondev.org/Wiki.jsp?page=CocoonDocsPlan, I think
your concept can fit nicely into this.

I'm convinced that it is possible to create the "newbies competence
center" that you mention *inside* the existing wiki - a well-designed
start page and navigation should help newbies find their way.

Maybe this needs some improvements to the existing wiki system, to help
newbies find pages that are targeted for them, namely:

a) Being able to search the wiki for "NCC pages only" or "everything" so
that newbies are not distracted by deep technical discussions.

b) Being able to clearly label pages as being part of the NCC, different
color, icons or something.

This might well be possible with JSPwiki, maybe by writing some kind of
extension? We need to ask Steven or the JSPWiki folks if you think this
is worth studying.

What do you think?
Join the party, or throw yet another one? :-)

-Bertrand


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--
Dr. Hussayn Dabbous
SAXESS Software Design GmbH
Neuenhöfer Allee 125
50935 Köln
Telefon: +49-221-56011-0
Fax: +49-221-56011-20
E-Mail:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: newbies documentation - yet another wiki?

2003-01-27 Thread Robert Simmons 
Ya, I know MSoffice can save into HTML. I want it to save into XML.

-- Robert

- Original Message -
From: "Emmanuil Batsis (Manos)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, January 27, 2003 1:31 PM
Subject: Re: newbies documentation - yet another wiki?


> Star/OpenOffice as well as the new MSOffice.
>
> Then again, WYSIWYG HTML Editors -> Tidy works great too.
>
> Manos
>
> Robert Simmons wrote:
> > What I don't get is why not put the new documentation in cocoon
distribution?
> > Everything else is in there: *smirk* Cocoon is built for web publishing,
we
> > could conspire to write volumes right in the product. Which reminds me,
> > anyone know a word processor that saves primarily in XML and is good?
> >
> > -- Robert
> >
> > - Original Message -
> > From: "Bertrand Delacretaz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Monday, January 27, 2003 10:14 AM
> > Subject: Re: newbies documentation - yet another wiki?
> >
> >
> >
> >>Hi Hussayn,
> >>
> >>I mostly agree with your point of view, except on the "separate wiki"
> >>thing. (And by the way, thanks a lot for your "less talking, more doing"
> >>approach!)
> >>
> >>What worries me *a lot* with starting yet another documentation site is
> >>the dispersion of resources - wouldn't it be much more efficient to have
> >>you, Derek and possibly others joing the (mythical) Cocoon docs team
> >>with the aim of creating these newbies docs?
> >>
> >>See also http://wiki.cocoondev.org/Wiki.jsp?page=CocoonDocsPlan, I think
> >>your concept can fit nicely into this.
> >>
> >>I'm convinced that it is possible to create the "newbies competence
> >>center" that you mention *inside* the existing wiki - a well-designed
> >>start page and navigation should help newbies find their way.
> >>
> >>Maybe this needs some improvements to the existing wiki system, to help
> >>newbies find pages that are targeted for them, namely:
> >>
> >>a) Being able to search the wiki for "NCC pages only" or "everything" so
> >>that newbies are not distracted by deep technical discussions.
> >>
> >>b) Being able to clearly label pages as being part of the NCC, different
> >>color, icons or something.
> >>
> >>This might well be possible with JSPwiki, maybe by writing some kind of
> >>extension? We need to ask Steven or the JSPWiki folks if you think this
> >>is worth studying.
> >>
> >>What do you think?
> >>Join the party, or throw yet another one? :-)
> >>
> >>-Bertrand
> >>
> >>
> >>-
> >>Please check that your question  has not already been answered in the
> >>FAQ before posting. <http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/faq/index.html>
> >>
> >>To unsubscribe, e-mail: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >>For additional commands, e-mail:   <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >>
> >
> >
> > -
> > Please check that your question  has not already been answered in the
> > FAQ before posting. <http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/faq/index.html>
> >
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> -
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Re: newbies documentation - yet another wiki?

2003-01-27 Thread Bertrand Delacretaz 
Robert Simmons wrote:

What I don't get is why not put the new documentation in cocoon distribution?

>. . .

Once there *is* new documentation, it will be easy to put it there.

Until then, the wiki is a great way to collaborate on docs until they 
are ready for inclusion in the official docs, where making changes or 
adding comments is much harder.

-Bertrand


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Re: newbies documentation - yet another wiki?

2003-01-27 Thread Emmanuil Batsis (Manos) 
Star/OpenOffice as well as the new MSOffice.

Then again, WYSIWYG HTML Editors -> Tidy works great too.

Manos

Robert Simmons wrote:

What I don't get is why not put the new documentation in cocoon distribution?
Everything else is in there: *smirk* Cocoon is built for web publishing, we
could conspire to write volumes right in the product. Which reminds me,
anyone know a word processor that saves primarily in XML and is good?

-- Robert

- Original Message -
From: "Bertrand Delacretaz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, January 27, 2003 10:14 AM
Subject: Re: newbies documentation - yet another wiki?




Hi Hussayn,

I mostly agree with your point of view, except on the "separate wiki"
thing. (And by the way, thanks a lot for your "less talking, more doing"
approach!)

What worries me *a lot* with starting yet another documentation site is
the dispersion of resources - wouldn't it be much more efficient to have
you, Derek and possibly others joing the (mythical) Cocoon docs team
with the aim of creating these newbies docs?

See also http://wiki.cocoondev.org/Wiki.jsp?page=CocoonDocsPlan, I think
your concept can fit nicely into this.

I'm convinced that it is possible to create the "newbies competence
center" that you mention *inside* the existing wiki - a well-designed
start page and navigation should help newbies find their way.

Maybe this needs some improvements to the existing wiki system, to help
newbies find pages that are targeted for them, namely:

a) Being able to search the wiki for "NCC pages only" or "everything" so
that newbies are not distracted by deep technical discussions.

b) Being able to clearly label pages as being part of the NCC, different
color, icons or something.

This might well be possible with JSPwiki, maybe by writing some kind of
extension? We need to ask Steven or the JSPWiki folks if you think this
is worth studying.

What do you think?
Join the party, or throw yet another one? :-)

-Bertrand


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Re: newbies documentation - yet another wiki?

2003-01-27 Thread Robert Simmons 
What I don't get is why not put the new documentation in cocoon distribution?
Everything else is in there: *smirk* Cocoon is built for web publishing, we
could conspire to write volumes right in the product. Which reminds me,
anyone know a word processor that saves primarily in XML and is good?

-- Robert

- Original Message -
From: "Bertrand Delacretaz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, January 27, 2003 10:14 AM
Subject: Re: newbies documentation - yet another wiki?


> Hi Hussayn,
>
> I mostly agree with your point of view, except on the "separate wiki"
> thing. (And by the way, thanks a lot for your "less talking, more doing"
> approach!)
>
> What worries me *a lot* with starting yet another documentation site is
> the dispersion of resources - wouldn't it be much more efficient to have
> you, Derek and possibly others joing the (mythical) Cocoon docs team
> with the aim of creating these newbies docs?
>
> See also http://wiki.cocoondev.org/Wiki.jsp?page=CocoonDocsPlan, I think
> your concept can fit nicely into this.
>
> I'm convinced that it is possible to create the "newbies competence
> center" that you mention *inside* the existing wiki - a well-designed
> start page and navigation should help newbies find their way.
>
> Maybe this needs some improvements to the existing wiki system, to help
> newbies find pages that are targeted for them, namely:
>
> a) Being able to search the wiki for "NCC pages only" or "everything" so
> that newbies are not distracted by deep technical discussions.
>
> b) Being able to clearly label pages as being part of the NCC, different
> color, icons or something.
>
> This might well be possible with JSPwiki, maybe by writing some kind of
> extension? We need to ask Steven or the JSPWiki folks if you think this
> is worth studying.
>
> What do you think?
> Join the party, or throw yet another one? :-)
>
> -Bertrand
>
>
> -
> Please check that your question  has not already been answered in the
> FAQ before posting. <http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/faq/index.html>
>
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> For additional commands, e-mail:   <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>


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Re: newbies documentation - yet another wiki?

2003-01-27 Thread Derek Hohls 



Bertrand
 
Good points - I think if we first agree on what the real problem
is then it will easier to find  a solution for it.  Here's my 

first draft:
 
Problem:
* Users cannot get quickly started with Cocoon
 
Causes (?)
1. The existing Cocoon documentation is poorly written
2. The existing Cocoon documentation is poorly structured
3. There are gaps in the existing Cocoon documentation 
4. Some of the existing Cocoon documentation is located
in more than one site
5. ...(other issues related to installation/file size etc etc)
 
Not all of these causes demand the same solution - where
do we need to focus effort first??>>> 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 27/01/2003 12:47:25 >>>Derek Hohls 
wrote:> Bertrand>  > I think you are making the same 
point as me... just proposing> a different solution.  I still feel 
that if we are using a system that> is based on the philisopy of "write 
once, publish anywhere" we> should be able to create documents in one 
place and have them> published in more than one place in more than one 
style.Why not - the problem IMHO is the content, and how easy/hard it is 
to access it.>. . .> PS we need to avoid creating more 
jargon - I always think of NCC> as part of the Starship Enterprise 's 
call sign (there, that gives *my*> age away!)Yes, agreed. If I 
got it right your ultimate aim is to improve the tutorial part of the Cocoon 
docs, so there's no need for a new 
acronym.-Bertrand-Please 
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Re: newbies documentation - yet another wiki?

2003-01-27 Thread Bertrand Delacretaz 
Derek Hohls wrote:

Bertrand
 
I think you are making the same point as me... just proposing
a different solution.  I still feel that if we are using a system that
is based on the philisopy of "write once, publish anywhere" we
should be able to create documents in one place and have them
published in more than one place in more than one style.

Why not - the problem IMHO is the content, and how easy/hard it is to 
access it.

>. . .
PS we need to avoid creating more jargon - I always think of NCC
as part of the Starship Enterprise 's call sign (there, that gives *my*
age away!)


Yes, agreed. If I got it right your ultimate aim is to improve the 
tutorial part of the Cocoon docs, so there's no need for a new acronym.

-Bertrand


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Re: newbies documentation - yet another wiki?

2003-01-27 Thread SAXESS - Hussayn Dabbous 
Hy, Derek;

Something else crawled into my mind:

I agree with you, that using a wiki as playing
ground for growing knowledge, it makes perfect
sense to extract mature infos from that site and
fill them into the "cocoon information site".
But i would disagree, if this would lead to a newbies
site and an experts site.

By the way, why not use the sunshine portal for that purpose?

lets get a bit visionary:

what about having:

o the cocoon documentation set for distribution
  manual pages
  possibly pdf for printout version
o the cocoon online site
  including online access to the docs (multiple versions
  of course, difference viewer as option)
o the cocoon documentation playground (wikipages)
o access to other related sites, bookstores,
  this mailing list, commercial project enabler, ...

All of this tied together by the sunshine portal, or
jetspeed, or whatever
Give it a newbies view, an experts view,
a developers view, a personal view

I would personally be very excited, if some people could
come together and start something like that... im ever
willing to learn and put some spare time into this...

regards, hussayn

Derek Hohls wrote:

Bertrand
 
I think you are making the same point as me... just proposing
a different solution.  I still feel that if we are using a system that
is based on the philisopy of "write once, publish anywhere" we
should be able to create documents in one place and have them
published in more than one place in more than one style.
 
If the JSPWiki folks can do all that you suggest, then great - but
in the meanwhile a simple and effective "traditional" web site should
be a snap to set up once your docs are in XML
 
PS we need to avoid creating more jargon - I always think of NCC
as part of the Starship Enterprise 's call sign (there, that gives *my*
age away!)
 
Derek

 >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 27/01/2003 11:14:33 >>>
Hi Hussayn,

I mostly agree with your point of view, except on the "separate wiki"
thing. (And by the way, thanks a lot for your "less talking, more doing"
approach!)

What worries me *a lot* with starting yet another documentation site is
the dispersion of resources - wouldn't it be much more efficient to have
you, Derek and possibly others joing the (mythical) Cocoon docs team
with the aim of creating these newbies docs?

See also http://wiki.cocoondev.org/Wiki.jsp?page=CocoonDocsPlan, I think
your concept can fit nicely into this.

I'm convinced that it is possible to create the "newbies competence
center" that you mention *inside* the existing wiki - a well-designed
start page and navigation should help newbies find their way.
 
Maybe this needs some improvements to the existing wiki system, to help
newbies find pages that are targeted for them, namely:

a) Being able to search the wiki for "NCC pages only" or "everything" so
that newbies are not distracted by deep technical discussions.

b) Being able to clearly label pages as being part of the NCC, different
color, icons or something.

This might well be possible with JSPwiki, maybe by writing some kind of
extension? We need to ask Steven or the JSPWiki folks if you think this
is worth studying.

What do you think?
Join the party, or throw yet another one? :-)

-Bertrand


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SAXESS Software Design GmbH
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Re: newbies documentation - yet another wiki?

2003-01-27 Thread Derek Hohls 



Niclas
 
What you say makes sense - I think the Wiki has a high value in
"ease of use" for the documenters (that's ALL of us, BTW) to create
and edit documents - then at some point "the editor" (whoever that 
is)
needs to pull out the best, structure them, and "submit it to 
cocoon-dev"
(whatever that means?) 
 
Only once there is a "bare minumum" for the newbie documentation
set available should the cocoon site be chnaged the way you 
propose.
And I would suggest a 
  1) Start Here!
rather than the jargon of : "1) Newbie's Guide to Killer App."
but, yes, this principle of a single, simple first page to choose
from makes sense. 
 
Side Note and Rant
We need to be crystal clear at the first point on each entry page 
just
exaclty who the target audience is and what we assume of them of them
in terms of background, knowledge and skills -  and if they have to 
learn 
some XSLT or understand basics of XML then we say that and give them
some tips as to get up to speed ASAP.  If they do not know any of 
that, 
then hopefully they still come back to Cocoon once they get some idea of 

where it might fit into their universe BUT at the very least they should be 

tempted to do the quick download and run the "hello world" 
demo
Derek
>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 27/01/2003 11:43:09 >>>On 
Monday 27 January 2003 17:14, Bertrand Delacretaz wrote:> Hi 
Hussayn,>> I mostly agree with your point of view, except on the 
"separate wiki"> thing. (And by the way, thanks a lot for your "less 
talking, more doing"> approach!)>> What worries me *a lot* 
with starting yet another documentation site is> the dispersion of 
resources - wouldn't it be much more efficient to have> you, Derek and 
possibly others joing the (mythical) Cocoon docs team> with the aim of 
creating these newbies docs?>> See also http://wiki.cocoondev.org/Wiki.jsp?page=CocoonDocsPlan, 
I think> your concept can fit nicely into this.>> I'm 
convinced that it is possible to create the "newbies competence> center" 
that you mention *inside* the existing wiki - a well-designed> start page 
and navigation should help newbies find their way.Maybe I am a real 
idiot, but shouldn't the Cocoon Documentation be published by Cocoon (it IS 
a publishing framework) itself upon installation??? This already happens, 
but we all agree it falls short to point the newcomer in the right 
direction. But still, the pointer must be where the newcomer looks first, 
among the docs that come with the download (or am I the only one starting 
there?).Wiki is fine for "loose" and quickly changing documents, 
somewhere between Stefano's (and others) "Random Thoughts" on mailing lists 
and proper documentation efforts.If Hussyan, Derek and whoelse are 
really serious about this (which we ALL pray they are), crank up the first 
XML doc, submit it to cocoon-dev, and you have committer status in no time, 
because;1. Developers hate to apply patches and files submitted by 
email.2. Developers LOVE people dedicated to documentation.And this 
is especially true on cocoon-dev ;o)So, what I suggest, is a new "first 
page" of Cocoon, which basically is a level above the current one, and 
spawns off into 4-6 lower levels, depending on the users background and 
interest;1) Newbie's Guide to Killer App.2) User's Manual3) User's 
Reference4) Architecture5) Developer's Guide to Killer App.Or 
something like that.My 0.02 ringgit, about 0.5 
cent.Niclas-Please 
check that your question  has not already been answered in theFAQ 
before posting. To 
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Re: newbies documentation - yet another wiki?

2003-01-27 Thread Steven Noels 
SAXESS - Hussayn Dabbous wrote:


set up 2nd Wiki in the same domain (parallel to the cocoon-wiki)
dedicated to the newbies. this would come close to my thoughts
but would not force us to start with work on the infrastructure.
instead just deploy JSPWiki a secnd time, use different layout,
interlink the two wikis, start ...


All feasible and happy to do so, if we have some quorum and some content 
to host right from the start. My suggestion to go forward: have a look 
at http://wiki.cocoondev.org/, you'll see I added a very prominent link 
to an unexisting Main page for this 'NewbiesGuide'.

The moment that section grows out of its cocoon, we can very easily 
migrate content from there to a separate Wiki instance. But first, let's 
try to get things moving.

I will personally spend serious time in helping out the editors in that 
section, promise!


--
Steven Noelshttp://outerthought.org/
Outerthought - Open Source, Java & XML Competence Support Center
Read my weblog athttp://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/
stevenn at outerthought.orgstevenn at apache.org


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Re: newbies documentation - yet another wiki?

2003-01-27 Thread Niclas Hedhman 
On Monday 27 January 2003 17:14, Bertrand Delacretaz wrote:
> Hi Hussayn,
>
> I mostly agree with your point of view, except on the "separate wiki"
> thing. (And by the way, thanks a lot for your "less talking, more doing"
> approach!)
>
> What worries me *a lot* with starting yet another documentation site is
> the dispersion of resources - wouldn't it be much more efficient to have
> you, Derek and possibly others joing the (mythical) Cocoon docs team
> with the aim of creating these newbies docs?
>
> See also http://wiki.cocoondev.org/Wiki.jsp?page=CocoonDocsPlan, I think
> your concept can fit nicely into this.
>
> I'm convinced that it is possible to create the "newbies competence
> center" that you mention *inside* the existing wiki - a well-designed
> start page and navigation should help newbies find their way.

Maybe I am a real idiot, but shouldn't the Cocoon Documentation be published 
by Cocoon (it IS a publishing framework) itself upon installation??? This 
already happens, but we all agree it falls short to point the newcomer in the 
right direction. But still, the pointer must be where the newcomer looks 
first, among the docs that come with the download (or am I the only one 
starting there?).

Wiki is fine for "loose" and quickly changing documents, somewhere between 
Stefano's (and others) "Random Thoughts" on mailing lists and proper 
documentation efforts.

If Hussyan, Derek and whoelse are really serious about this (which we ALL pray 
they are), crank up the first XML doc, submit it to cocoon-dev, and you have 
committer status in no time, because;
1. Developers hate to apply patches and files submitted by email.
2. Developers LOVE people dedicated to documentation.

And this is especially true on cocoon-dev ;o)

So, what I suggest, is a new "first page" of Cocoon, which basically is a 
level above the current one, and spawns off into 4-6 lower levels, depending 
on the users background and interest;
1) Newbie's Guide to Killer App.
2) User's Manual
3) User's Reference
4) Architecture
5) Developer's Guide to Killer App.

Or something like that.

My 0.02 ringgit, about 0.5 cent.

Niclas

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Re: newbies documentation - yet another wiki?

2003-01-27 Thread Derek Hohls 



Bertrand
 
I think you are making the same point as me... just proposing
a different solution.  I still feel that if we are using a system 
that
is based on the philisopy of "write once, publish anywhere" we
should be able to create documents in one place and have them
published in more than one place in more than one style.
 
If the JSPWiki folks can do all that you suggest, then great - but
in the meanwhile a simple and effective "traditional" web site should
be a snap to set up once your docs are in XML
 
PS we need to avoid creating more jargon - I always think of NCC
as part of the Starship Enterprise 's call sign (there, that gives 
*my*
age away!)
 
Derek>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 27/01/2003 11:14:33 
>>>Hi Hussayn,I mostly agree with your point of view, 
except on the "separate wiki" thing. (And by the way, thanks a lot for your 
"less talking, more doing" approach!)What worries me *a lot* with 
starting yet another documentation site is the dispersion of resources - 
wouldn't it be much more efficient to have you, Derek and possibly others 
joing the (mythical) Cocoon docs team with the aim of creating these newbies 
docs?See also http://wiki.cocoondev.org/Wiki.jsp?page=CocoonDocsPlan, 
I think your concept can fit nicely into this.I'm convinced that it 
is possible to create the "newbies competence center" that you mention 
*inside* the existing wiki - a well-designed start page and navigation 
should help newbies find their way. Maybe this needs some 
improvements to the existing wiki system, to help newbies find pages that 
are targeted for them, namely:a) Being able to search the wiki for "NCC 
pages only" or "everything" so that newbies are not distracted by deep 
technical discussions.b) Being able to clearly label pages as being part 
of the NCC, different color, icons or something.This might well be 
possible with JSPwiki, maybe by writing some kind of extension? We need to 
ask Steven or the JSPWiki folks if you think this is worth 
studying.What do you think?Join the party, or throw yet another one? 
:-)-Bertrand-Please 
check that your question  has not already been answered in theFAQ 
before posting. To 
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therefore not necessarily those of the CSIR and/or its employees.
The sender of this e-mail is, moreover, in terms of the CSIR's Conditions
of Service, subject to compliance with the CSIR's internal E-mail and
Internet Policy."

Re: newbies documentation - yet another wiki?

2003-01-27 Thread SAXESS - Hussayn Dabbous 
Hy, Bertrand

short answer: join the party of course!

long answer:

when we want to count on newbies efforts they should be given
instant access: edit deploy, online. this is what wiki does.
hence i would consider the work on the cocoon documentation
as secnd step towards the ultimate documentation set.
this should be done as proposed from the cocoon wiki by
assimilating the wiki into the cocoon docs step by step...
I would like to help there too sometime...

when i started with cocoon i also took a look at "JSPWiki", which
powers the cocoon wiki. In the first place i could not figure out,
how to set up this wiki with different layouts or even how to
create different sections with different start pages.
This may be possible somehow, but would possibly generate
additional work *before* starting.

What about the following idea:

set up 2nd Wiki in the same domain (parallel to the cocoon-wiki)
dedicated to the newbies. this would come close to my thoughts
but would not force us to start with work on the infrastructure.
instead just deploy JSPWiki a secnd time, use different layout,
interlink the two wikis, start ...

regards, hussayn


Bertrand Delacretaz wrote:

Hi Hussayn,

I mostly agree with your point of view, except on the "separate wiki" 
thing. (And by the way, thanks a lot for your "less talking, more doing" 
approach!)

What worries me *a lot* with starting yet another documentation site is 
the dispersion of resources - wouldn't it be much more efficient to have 
you, Derek and possibly others joing the (mythical) Cocoon docs team 
with the aim of creating these newbies docs?

See also http://wiki.cocoondev.org/Wiki.jsp?page=CocoonDocsPlan, I think 
your concept can fit nicely into this.

I'm convinced that it is possible to create the "newbies competence 
center" that you mention *inside* the existing wiki - a well-designed 
start page and navigation should help newbies find their way.

Maybe this needs some improvements to the existing wiki system, to help 
newbies find pages that are targeted for them, namely:

a) Being able to search the wiki for "NCC pages only" or "everything" so 
that newbies are not distracted by deep technical discussions.

b) Being able to clearly label pages as being part of the NCC, different 
color, icons or something.

This might well be possible with JSPwiki, maybe by writing some kind of 
extension? We need to ask Steven or the JSPWiki folks if you think this 
is worth studying.

What do you think?
Join the party, or throw yet another one? :-)

-Bertrand


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Dr. Hussayn Dabbous
SAXESS Software Design GmbH
Neuenhöfer Allee 125
50935 Köln
Telefon: +49-221-56011-0
Fax: +49-221-56011-20
E-Mail:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: newbies documentation - yet another wiki?

2003-01-27 Thread Bertrand Delacretaz 
Hi Hussayn,

I mostly agree with your point of view, except on the "separate wiki" 
thing. (And by the way, thanks a lot for your "less talking, more doing" 
approach!)

What worries me *a lot* with starting yet another documentation site is 
the dispersion of resources - wouldn't it be much more efficient to have 
you, Derek and possibly others joing the (mythical) Cocoon docs team 
with the aim of creating these newbies docs?

See also http://wiki.cocoondev.org/Wiki.jsp?page=CocoonDocsPlan, I think 
your concept can fit nicely into this.

I'm convinced that it is possible to create the "newbies competence 
center" that you mention *inside* the existing wiki - a well-designed 
start page and navigation should help newbies find their way.

Maybe this needs some improvements to the existing wiki system, to help 
newbies find pages that are targeted for them, namely:

a) Being able to search the wiki for "NCC pages only" or "everything" so 
that newbies are not distracted by deep technical discussions.

b) Being able to clearly label pages as being part of the NCC, different 
color, icons or something.

This might well be possible with JSPwiki, maybe by writing some kind of 
extension? We need to ask Steven or the JSPWiki folks if you think this 
is worth studying.

What do you think?
Join the party, or throw yet another one? :-)

-Bertrand


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