[Callers] Re: preference for dancing with opposite gender?
I'll just speak up for the "it's not always homophobia" contingent. There are a multitude of reasons why dancers (of all genders) may not wish to dance with men in particular. Not the least of which is we can't possibly know the burdens others carry. Trauma is real and there are reasons we can't possibly know why an individual may wish to go dancing, but not wish to dance closely with a person or with men (or others) more generally. I'm fortunate not to carry such trauma, but I can offer another perspective being a disabled person, who passes as able bodied and (still) young. I used to dance more frequently with other men when I was younger, but all instances where I've fallen, felt unsafe, or had to leave a set midway through a dance have been with men who have made assumptions about my capabilities, especially during swings. I'll note that this happens even in "traditionally gendered" settings (though less so) with things like larks allemanding left 1.5 or men taking liberties during full heys. In those moments, I appreciate role switching because I'll use it sometimes to avoid doing a particular figure with someone upcoming in the line -- these men have even been experienced and talented dancers. There is a certain roughhousing nature that men tend to have uniquely with other men, as though it's expected to just want to see who can out-muscle whom. This amplifies the exuberance that some men have in dancing. I'd ask men reading this to reflect on whether they do this too, but I also recognize that it's a part of what brings some men joy when dancing with other men. It's tricky. Anyway, all that is to say: if I'm one of a few guys who hasn't partnered during paring time, I would rather sit out than dance with most men, whose dancing I don't know and trust. And, yes, I realize an answer here is to just simply tell the people I dance with to treat me in certain ways, and sometimes I do do that. But I also don't want to do a PSA about how to interact with me specifically. If I go to a dance it's to have a fun time, not to dwell on my physical limitations. Not to mention that there's no guarantee my explanations will be heeded. Sidestepping is just plain easier, and my hope is that others not judge me for that. S On Sun, Mar 17, 2024 at 9:51 PM Patricia Campbell via Contra Callers < contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: > My 2¢ > I agree - it's not always homophobia that is behind the reaction - > sometimes it's entire generations of upbringing that make it extremely > difficult/awkward for some men to be in a more physically intimate space > than they usually find themselves in. > And it's one thing to do an allemande left with another man - you're not > as physically close for as long)... many men are only used to being in > close proximity with other men in a sports role or a slap on the back > "hello" (in the *American* culture - other cultures aren't anywhere near as > uptight). > > I think that some of the alternative swing suggestions made will go a long > way to easing the reactions - they're just less intimate, less of a > "threat" of any kind (whether cultural boundaries/homophobia/whatever). > > My opinions... > > Patricia > > Patricia Campbell > southern ME > (she/her) > > > On Sun, Mar 17, 2024 at 7:24 PM Julian Blechner via Contra Callers < > contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: > >> Read and JJ, >> >> This is where I tread carefully, because _all men_ (or nearly so) are >> raised with some pretty toxic beliefs doused all over them (and women, but >> they seem to do a bit better than us men at dealing with it). Sometimes >> it's hard to tell the boundary between "traditional gender roles" versus >> homophobia. And that's why it's absolutely a reason why it's a touchy >> subject. >> >> Anytime "doing X in dancing is homophobic" is brought up, it's: >> 1. Not always accurate >> 2. When it is accurate, it's just going to shut down most discussion. No >> one wants to hear their deeply ingrained societal norms and beliefs are >> bigoted, right? It's a non-starter for conversation. >> >> That said, lgbtqia folks (myself included) absolutely should talk about >> the negative effects of it (ex: Two women are split up so men can have >> partners, or the "dramatic production" JJ mentioned in their reply). It's >> critical these stories continue to be told so people can understand the >> harm that is done sometimes in the name of "tradition". >> >> But in terms of how we - as performers and organizers - look forward and >> improve things, I think if the goal is persuasiveness, it's more effective >> to let people judge for themselves whether and how their ingrained societal >> norms are homophobic or not. >> >> Changing these things is hard work and takes a long time. Gender and >> sexuality are core parts of our identities, so any discussion of it can be >> intensely personal for anyone. >> >> In dance, >> Julian Blechner >> He/him >> Western Massachusetts >> >> On Sun, Mar 17, 2024,
[Callers] Re: preference for dancing with opposite gender?
My 2¢ I agree - it's not always homophobia that is behind the reaction - sometimes it's entire generations of upbringing that make it extremely difficult/awkward for some men to be in a more physically intimate space than they usually find themselves in. And it's one thing to do an allemande left with another man - you're not as physically close for as long)... many men are only used to being in close proximity with other men in a sports role or a slap on the back "hello" (in the *American* culture - other cultures aren't anywhere near as uptight). I think that some of the alternative swing suggestions made will go a long way to easing the reactions - they're just less intimate, less of a "threat" of any kind (whether cultural boundaries/homophobia/whatever). My opinions... Patricia Patricia Campbell southern ME (she/her) On Sun, Mar 17, 2024 at 7:24 PM Julian Blechner via Contra Callers < contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: > Read and JJ, > > This is where I tread carefully, because _all men_ (or nearly so) are > raised with some pretty toxic beliefs doused all over them (and women, but > they seem to do a bit better than us men at dealing with it). Sometimes > it's hard to tell the boundary between "traditional gender roles" versus > homophobia. And that's why it's absolutely a reason why it's a touchy > subject. > > Anytime "doing X in dancing is homophobic" is brought up, it's: > 1. Not always accurate > 2. When it is accurate, it's just going to shut down most discussion. No > one wants to hear their deeply ingrained societal norms and beliefs are > bigoted, right? It's a non-starter for conversation. > > That said, lgbtqia folks (myself included) absolutely should talk about > the negative effects of it (ex: Two women are split up so men can have > partners, or the "dramatic production" JJ mentioned in their reply). It's > critical these stories continue to be told so people can understand the > harm that is done sometimes in the name of "tradition". > > But in terms of how we - as performers and organizers - look forward and > improve things, I think if the goal is persuasiveness, it's more effective > to let people judge for themselves whether and how their ingrained societal > norms are homophobic or not. > > Changing these things is hard work and takes a long time. Gender and > sexuality are core parts of our identities, so any discussion of it can be > intensely personal for anyone. > > In dance, > Julian Blechner > He/him > Western Massachusetts > > On Sun, Mar 17, 2024, 6:55 PM JJ wrote: > >> Hi Read! I wanted to add that the times when I (a non-binary person that >> is generally assumed to be a man) have encountered neighbor men who refuse >> to swing with me, it has often been accompanied with either thinly-veiled >> disgust or even an overt "ew I'm not dancing with a man." I'm so sorry that >> you were physically assaulted, though I'm not surprised. >> >> I agree with Read that this is just general homophobia, and again it >> makes me worry about the women these men are dancing with, simply because >> they clearly don't want to "hold a man" in the same way that they are >> "holding" all the women they neighbor/partner with. >> Polite declining is 100% acceptable and I've never been upset by it. But >> more often than not, men refusing to dance with me has been a rather >> dramatic production that leaves me feeling icky. 路 >> >> >> On Sun, Mar 17, 2024, 11:27 Read Weaver via Contra Callers < >> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: >> >>> I’m kinda doubtful about how common reason 2 is, I think most of what >>> might superficially seem like insisting on conventional gender roles is >>> actually (men's) homophobia—dancing with a man might make me look like a…, >>> or the man dancing with me might be a…. (I specify men because I’ve never >>> once lived and danced where women were exercised about this—occasionally a >>> preference for mixed-gender, but never a strong one). The guy who assaulted >>> me at NEFFA years ago because he came across me in the line dancing the >>> “wrong” role didn’t do so because I was rejecting conventional gender >>> roles, he did it because of homophobia. >>> >>> Read Weaver >>> Jamaica Plain, MA >>> http://lcfd.org >>> >>> > On Mar 12, 2024, at 1:36 PM, Julian Blechner via Contra Callers < >>> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: >>> > >>> > ... >>> > - So, when someone says they prefer to dance in non-genderfree dances, >>> with a partner of a different binary-presenting gender person, in trad >>> roles, there's 2 possible, non-exclusive reasons: >>> > 1. That their choice is about courtship, but "make exceptions" for >>> people you're not attracted to. Which, I guess is fine in and of itself, >>> but I think people with this preference often may not consider _just how >>> many exceptions_ there are. >>> > 2. Their choice is more about embracing traditional gender roles. I'll >>> get back to this >>> ... >>>
[Callers] Re: preference for dancing with opposite gender?
Read and JJ, This is where I tread carefully, because _all men_ (or nearly so) are raised with some pretty toxic beliefs doused all over them (and women, but they seem to do a bit better than us men at dealing with it). Sometimes it's hard to tell the boundary between "traditional gender roles" versus homophobia. And that's why it's absolutely a reason why it's a touchy subject. Anytime "doing X in dancing is homophobic" is brought up, it's: 1. Not always accurate 2. When it is accurate, it's just going to shut down most discussion. No one wants to hear their deeply ingrained societal norms and beliefs are bigoted, right? It's a non-starter for conversation. That said, lgbtqia folks (myself included) absolutely should talk about the negative effects of it (ex: Two women are split up so men can have partners, or the "dramatic production" JJ mentioned in their reply). It's critical these stories continue to be told so people can understand the harm that is done sometimes in the name of "tradition". But in terms of how we - as performers and organizers - look forward and improve things, I think if the goal is persuasiveness, it's more effective to let people judge for themselves whether and how their ingrained societal norms are homophobic or not. Changing these things is hard work and takes a long time. Gender and sexuality are core parts of our identities, so any discussion of it can be intensely personal for anyone. In dance, Julian Blechner He/him Western Massachusetts On Sun, Mar 17, 2024, 6:55 PM JJ wrote: > Hi Read! I wanted to add that the times when I (a non-binary person that > is generally assumed to be a man) have encountered neighbor men who refuse > to swing with me, it has often been accompanied with either thinly-veiled > disgust or even an overt "ew I'm not dancing with a man." I'm so sorry that > you were physically assaulted, though I'm not surprised. > > I agree with Read that this is just general homophobia, and again it makes > me worry about the women these men are dancing with, simply because they > clearly don't want to "hold a man" in the same way that they are "holding" > all the women they neighbor/partner with. > Polite declining is 100% acceptable and I've never been upset by it. But > more often than not, men refusing to dance with me has been a rather > dramatic production that leaves me feeling icky. 路 > > > On Sun, Mar 17, 2024, 11:27 Read Weaver via Contra Callers < > contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: > >> I’m kinda doubtful about how common reason 2 is, I think most of what >> might superficially seem like insisting on conventional gender roles is >> actually (men's) homophobia—dancing with a man might make me look like a…, >> or the man dancing with me might be a…. (I specify men because I’ve never >> once lived and danced where women were exercised about this—occasionally a >> preference for mixed-gender, but never a strong one). The guy who assaulted >> me at NEFFA years ago because he came across me in the line dancing the >> “wrong” role didn’t do so because I was rejecting conventional gender >> roles, he did it because of homophobia. >> >> Read Weaver >> Jamaica Plain, MA >> http://lcfd.org >> >> > On Mar 12, 2024, at 1:36 PM, Julian Blechner via Contra Callers < >> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: >> > >> > ... >> > - So, when someone says they prefer to dance in non-genderfree dances, >> with a partner of a different binary-presenting gender person, in trad >> roles, there's 2 possible, non-exclusive reasons: >> > 1. That their choice is about courtship, but "make exceptions" for >> people you're not attracted to. Which, I guess is fine in and of itself, >> but I think people with this preference often may not consider _just how >> many exceptions_ there are. >> > 2. Their choice is more about embracing traditional gender roles. I'll >> get back to this >> ... >> ___ >> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net >> To unsubscribe send an email to >> contracallers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net >> >> ___ Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net To unsubscribe send an email to contracallers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net
[Callers] Re: preference for dancing with opposite gender?
Hi Read! I wanted to add that the times when I (a non-binary person that is generally assumed to be a man) have encountered neighbor men who refuse to swing with me, it has often been accompanied with either thinly-veiled disgust or even an overt "ew I'm not dancing with a man." I'm so sorry that you were physically assaulted, though I'm not surprised. I agree with Read that this is just general homophobia, and again it makes me worry about the women these men are dancing with, simply because they clearly don't want to "hold a man" in the same way that they are "holding" all the women they neighbor/partner with. Polite declining is 100% acceptable and I've never been upset by it. But more often than not, men refusing to dance with me has been a rather dramatic production that leaves me feeling icky. 路 On Sun, Mar 17, 2024, 11:27 Read Weaver via Contra Callers < contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: > I’m kinda doubtful about how common reason 2 is, I think most of what > might superficially seem like insisting on conventional gender roles is > actually (men's) homophobia—dancing with a man might make me look like a…, > or the man dancing with me might be a…. (I specify men because I’ve never > once lived and danced where women were exercised about this—occasionally a > preference for mixed-gender, but never a strong one). The guy who assaulted > me at NEFFA years ago because he came across me in the line dancing the > “wrong” role didn’t do so because I was rejecting conventional gender > roles, he did it because of homophobia. > > Read Weaver > Jamaica Plain, MA > http://lcfd.org > > > On Mar 12, 2024, at 1:36 PM, Julian Blechner via Contra Callers < > contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: > > > > ... > > - So, when someone says they prefer to dance in non-genderfree dances, > with a partner of a different binary-presenting gender person, in trad > roles, there's 2 possible, non-exclusive reasons: > > 1. That their choice is about courtship, but "make exceptions" for > people you're not attracted to. Which, I guess is fine in and of itself, > but I think people with this preference often may not consider _just how > many exceptions_ there are. > > 2. Their choice is more about embracing traditional gender roles. I'll > get back to this > ... > ___ > Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net > To unsubscribe send an email to contracallers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net > ___ Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net To unsubscribe send an email to contracallers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net
[Callers] Re: preference for dancing with opposite gender?
I’m kinda doubtful about how common reason 2 is, I think most of what might superficially seem like insisting on conventional gender roles is actually (men's) homophobia—dancing with a man might make me look like a…, or the man dancing with me might be a…. (I specify men because I’ve never once lived and danced where women were exercised about this—occasionally a preference for mixed-gender, but never a strong one). The guy who assaulted me at NEFFA years ago because he came across me in the line dancing the “wrong” role didn’t do so because I was rejecting conventional gender roles, he did it because of homophobia. Read Weaver Jamaica Plain, MA http://lcfd.org > On Mar 12, 2024, at 1:36 PM, Julian Blechner via Contra Callers > wrote: > > ... > - So, when someone says they prefer to dance in non-genderfree dances, with a > partner of a different binary-presenting gender person, in trad roles, > there's 2 possible, non-exclusive reasons: > 1. That their choice is about courtship, but "make exceptions" for people > you're not attracted to. Which, I guess is fine in and of itself, but I think > people with this preference often may not consider _just how many exceptions_ > there are. > 2. Their choice is more about embracing traditional gender roles. I'll get > back to this ... ___ Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net To unsubscribe send an email to contracallers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net
[Callers] Re: preference for dancing with opposite gender?
There's a lot to unpack with all of these issues (size/weight/age/disability/gender-attachment/historical precedents/etc/etc/etc). I know an older, colleague (caller) who deals with people not wanting to dance with him (b/c of age),. At the same time, he has no interest in dancing (mostly the swinging part) with another man. He's okay with alternate swing holds, but really had a hard time when someone "insisted" on ballroom hold - he just flat out said no. I've personally dealt with issues over the years - people who strong-arm you; people who decide there are no boundaries; people who think it's fun to swing you off your feet. I've never had any problem dealing with any of the situations, but I have talked with a number of people over the years who've left dances b/c of things like that. That brings up the need to remind people that we all have various comfort levels, and if someone offers an alternative hold (or way of doing a figure) that is less "intimate", that should be honored. I know many people who are extremely uncomfortable with a "right-shoulder-round meltdown" (trying to remember to refrain from the term most aren't using anymore). Back in the day (lol), callers used to offer very brief (1-2 minutes) but important "dance etiquette" moments scattered throughout the evening - I think it's still greatly needed. Easier to do at a family dance or a community dance, but no less important (maybe more so) at many contra dances. My 2 cents - Patricia Patricia Campbell (she/her) Biddeford, ME On Tue, Mar 12, 2024 at 1:36 PM Julian Blechner via Contra Callers < contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: > I'm nodding with a lot of comments from the last couple days. Louise > articulated some base concepts clearly, which a lot of y'all expanded on. > > There are some contradictory ideas about gender and sexuality with dance, > and I think we in general tend to shy away from delving too deeply in > public discussion. I've been accused of "shaming" people for asking why a > man may prefer dancing with women. The thing is, I've also said what I > think nearly everyone - including most/all of the strongest advocates for > genderfree contra - has said: its OK to have preferences for partners. I > think it is sometimes hard to presume these discussions are done assuming > the benefit of good intent, given how much gender and sexuality is an > enormous political and civil rights topic in the US and most Western > nations. But, I presume this good intent, and I think nearly everyone here > does, too, so, I'm taking another stab at this topic. > > Here's some ideas I've been chewing over in an attempt to dig into this > more deeply: > - dance is often a courtship ritual > - despite this, inter-gender set dancing has a long tradition in Western > dance, and partnering with someone hasn't really ever been a "oh, I am > attracted to them". To use the overused example of Jane Austen novels, even > then it's clear family dance together, friends dance together, and > strangers dance together just to have any partner. > - children are at our dances. So if a person is choosing partners based on > heterosexual tradition, why, um: EW > > And thus is where the conversation often stops. But to break it down more: > > - So, when someone says they prefer to dance in non-genderfree dances, > with a partner of a different binary-presenting gender person, in trad > roles, there's 2 possible, non-exclusive reasons: > 1. That their choice is about courtship, but "make exceptions" for people > you're not attracted to. Which, I guess is fine in and of itself, but I > think people with this preference often may not consider _just how many > exceptions_ there are. > 2. Their choice is more about embracing traditional gender roles. I'll get > back to this. > > So, in the case of #1, the problem isn't just about "what do we do with > the fact that about 5% of people aren't straight". (And realize the number > being 3 or 4 times as high among surveyed youth, with numbers lower in > areas where anti-lgbtq law and sentiment pervades). > > The problem is also about fat phobia. And bias against people who aren't > "conventionally attractive". And ageism. And disability phobia. Then > there's the even worse case of when a person both claims attraction is > their main factor for partner preference ... and also has a preference for > much younger dancers. :| > > Pushing back on the idea of "partner preference because of sexual > preference" is about all these issues - fatphobia, ageism, disability > phobia, beauty-bias, etc. Now, maybe these things aren't a priority to > everyone, but, I'm going to assume that the overwhelming majority of people > on Shared Weight are interested in most, if not all of them. And, > inevitably, remember - youth, beauty, and able-bodiedness all will fade for > everyone. > > In reality, I think partner and role preference for trad-gender-partnering > actually has to do more with gender norms. So insofar
[Callers] Re: preference for dancing with opposite gender?
I know 2 elderly dancers in our community who obviously need help while dancing. Almost everyone knows that, and helps them. Sometimes they skip moves, shorten and slow a swing, "swing" without turning, exit the dance at the end of the line, or make whatever accomodations are needed to help them. I've never heard anyone complain about them, and I regularly see them sitting out talking with other dancers, myself included. It's another example of what I love about our community. On another part of that spectrum are the middle-age men who only dance with young women, almost always new dancers who don't know how to say no. It's been a while since I've seen it, but we used to get complaints about stalking on the dance floor and in the parking lot. We started writing down those complaints, dating them, and confronting the offender about it. We had to "uninvite" a couple guys. Word got around, and we've not seen that behavior in the 18 months since we reopened our dance. It really helps that everyone knows dancers can come to the organizers with a problem and we will swiftly deal with it. Then there are the children. We've had to ask people not to pick up the small dancers and swing them off their feet. A gentle, occasional reminder is helpful. -Amy On Tue, Mar 12, 2024, 11:38 AM Richard Fischer via Contra Callers < contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: > Since "ageism" has been mentioned, I'd like to share an idea I've often > had. I wonder if anyone thinks it's a good idea, or if it's already done at > any contra dances. What if one dance per evening, perhaps in the first > half, were done at a slightly slower tempo, and featured choreography that > allowed for some standing around. Perhaps a dance like Chorus Jig, where > some folks could choose to join at the end. Or a more recent dance that > still features down time, for example one where the 1's and 2's have > separate swings. I think that might be helpful to some elderly dancers, if > you have them, and to others who may not have a lot of stamina, or who get > dizzy easily, etc. It might be a way to make contra dancing even more > welcoming than it already is. > > Richard > in Arlington, MA > > On Mar 12, 2024, at 1:36 PM, Julian Blechner via Contra Callers < > contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: > > I'm nodding with a lot of comments from the last couple days. Louise > articulated some base concepts clearly, which a lot of y'all expanded on. > > There are some contradictory ideas about gender and sexuality with dance, > and I think we in general tend to shy away from delving too deeply in > public discussion. I've been accused of "shaming" people for asking why a > man may prefer dancing with women. The thing is, I've also said what I > think nearly everyone - including most/all of the strongest advocates for > genderfree contra - has said: its OK to have preferences for partners. I > think it is sometimes hard to presume these discussions are done assuming > the benefit of good intent, given how much gender and sexuality is an > enormous political and civil rights topic in the US and most Western > nations. But, I presume this good intent, and I think nearly everyone here > does, too, so, I'm taking another stab at this topic. > > Here's some ideas I've been chewing over in an attempt to dig into this > more deeply: > - dance is often a courtship ritual > - despite this, inter-gender set dancing has a long tradition in Western > dance, and partnering with someone hasn't really ever been a "oh, I am > attracted to them". To use the overused example of Jane Austen novels, even > then it's clear family dance together, friends dance together, and > strangers dance together just to have any partner. > - children are at our dances. So if a person is choosing partners based on > heterosexual tradition, why, um: EW > > And thus is where the conversation often stops. But to break it down more: > > - So, when someone says they prefer to dance in non-genderfree dances, > with a partner of a different binary-presenting gender person, in trad > roles, there's 2 possible, non-exclusive reasons: > 1. That their choice is about courtship, but "make exceptions" for people > you're not attracted to. Which, I guess is fine in and of itself, but I > think people with this preference often may not consider _just how many > exceptions_ there are. > 2. Their choice is more about embracing traditional gender roles. I'll get > back to this. > > So, in the case of #1, the problem isn't just about "what do we do with > the fact that about 5% of people aren't straight". (And realize the number > being 3 or 4 times as high among surveyed youth, with numbers lower in > areas where anti-lgbtq law and sentiment pervades). > > The problem is also about fat phobia. And bias against people who aren't > "conventionally attractive". And ageism. And disability phobia. Then > there's the even worse case of when a person both claims attraction is > their main factor for
[Callers] Re: preference for dancing with opposite gender?
Since "ageism" has been mentioned, I'd like to share an idea I've often had. I wonder if anyone thinks it's a good idea, or if it's already done at any contra dances. What if one dance per evening, perhaps in the first half, were done at a slightly slower tempo, and featured choreography that allowed for some standing around. Perhaps a dance like Chorus Jig, where some folks could choose to join at the end. Or a more recent dance that still features down time, for example one where the 1's and 2's have separate swings. I think that might be helpful to some elderly dancers, if you have them, and to others who may not have a lot of stamina, or who get dizzy easily, etc. It might be a way to make contra dancing even more welcoming than it already is. Richard in Arlington, MA > On Mar 12, 2024, at 1:36 PM, Julian Blechner via Contra Callers > wrote: > > I'm nodding with a lot of comments from the last couple days. Louise > articulated some base concepts clearly, which a lot of y'all expanded on. > > There are some contradictory ideas about gender and sexuality with dance, and > I think we in general tend to shy away from delving too deeply in public > discussion. I've been accused of "shaming" people for asking why a man may > prefer dancing with women. The thing is, I've also said what I think nearly > everyone - including most/all of the strongest advocates for genderfree > contra - has said: its OK to have preferences for partners. I think it is > sometimes hard to presume these discussions are done assuming the benefit of > good intent, given how much gender and sexuality is an enormous political and > civil rights topic in the US and most Western nations. But, I presume this > good intent, and I think nearly everyone here does, too, so, I'm taking > another stab at this topic. > > Here's some ideas I've been chewing over in an attempt to dig into this more > deeply: > - dance is often a courtship ritual > - despite this, inter-gender set dancing has a long tradition in Western > dance, and partnering with someone hasn't really ever been a "oh, I am > attracted to them". To use the overused example of Jane Austen novels, even > then it's clear family dance together, friends dance together, and strangers > dance together just to have any partner. > - children are at our dances. So if a person is choosing partners based on > heterosexual tradition, why, um: EW > > And thus is where the conversation often stops. But to break it down more: > > - So, when someone says they prefer to dance in non-genderfree dances, with a > partner of a different binary-presenting gender person, in trad roles, > there's 2 possible, non-exclusive reasons: > 1. That their choice is about courtship, but "make exceptions" for people > you're not attracted to. Which, I guess is fine in and of itself, but I think > people with this preference often may not consider _just how many exceptions_ > there are. > 2. Their choice is more about embracing traditional gender roles. I'll get > back to this. > > So, in the case of #1, the problem isn't just about "what do we do with the > fact that about 5% of people aren't straight". (And realize the number being > 3 or 4 times as high among surveyed youth, with numbers lower in areas where > anti-lgbtq law and sentiment pervades). > > The problem is also about fat phobia. And bias against people who aren't > "conventionally attractive". And ageism. And disability phobia. Then there's > the even worse case of when a person both claims attraction is their main > factor for partner preference ... and also has a preference for much younger > dancers. :| > > Pushing back on the idea of "partner preference because of sexual preference" > is about all these issues - fatphobia, ageism, disability phobia, > beauty-bias, etc. Now, maybe these things aren't a priority to everyone, but, > I'm going to assume that the overwhelming majority of people on Shared Weight > are interested in most, if not all of them. And, inevitably, remember - > youth, beauty, and able-bodiedness all will fade for everyone. > > In reality, I think partner and role preference for trad-gender-partnering > actually has to do more with gender norms. So insofar as sexual-attraction > for partner preference, I think pushing back, openly, against this, can > benefit dance communities in many ways. And, ultimately if that's not > actually the main reason, then it isn't really harming anyone if we present > it and deal with it with compassion and patience for those having difficulty > with the change. It's not like people aren't going to flirt and meet sexual > partners anyway; we simply don't need to establish dance as a > courtship-by-default space. > > Which leads to look at the other reason, #2: wanting trad gender partnering > because you just like trad gender roles. > > In and of itself, that's fine. If you like ways of having your binary gender > reinforced,
[Callers] Re: preference for dancing with opposite gender?
I was not going to go here but... as a female presenting person - of weight. Yeah we should talk about that elephant in the room too. It used to be difficult to find partners until they saw me dance and/or crossed me in the line and realized that yes, we can dance, yes we can move and yes we can be responsible for our own bodies. Now saying that - while I can and am willing to dance whatever role there is, when asked which I prefer (L/R) I always assess who I am dancing with, and who is in the line that I am in. Sad to say there are dancers that hurt. I have two bad shoulders, that while do not need particular special treatment or an ouch tag, do get tired and achy when people hang on that arm in a swing. So - I avoid dancing with those as best I can by choosing the role that will have me encounter the lesser of the evils (so to speak) and in some cases change the swing hold to something less painful. This is not something I normally talk about but I wonder if others have a similar defense mechanism. Sometimes I offer to switch part way through the line or at the end just so we each get equal turns at each role. Since we are talking role choice I thought this might be an appropriate place to bring this up. maybe not. "And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who couldn't hear the music." - Nietzsche “Life is not about waiting for the storms to pass ... it's about learning to dance in the rain!” ~ unknown On Tue, Mar 12, 2024 at 1:11 PM Amy Wimmer via Contra Callers < contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: > I am super glad that in our (Seattle) dance community the vast majority of > people sitting out dances are doing so because they want to rest, or to > chat with someone who's resting. There is still a small handful of folks > who insist on never partnering with those they think are the same sex as > they. > > This means that more people are having fun dancing, and fewer are sitting > out because they can't find a partner. People are dancing with _people_. No > one is forcing anyone to dance with anyone else. This is a huge win in my > book. > > I'm one of the organizers of Emerald City Contra Dance. About 18 months > ago a dancer told me of a guy who was trying to split up a couple of > female-presenting dancers because he didn't want to do dance moves with > "the wrong person." He physically put his hands on them to try to move them > to the "correct" positions, and force them to dance with male-presenting > dancers. When told about this I immediately approached him, told him his > behavior was unacceptable, and that he should never try to do that again. > He hasn't been back to our dance since. I don't know about the couple he > was accosting. I apologized to them on behalf of ECCD. > > The attitude in our community is mostly one of acceptance. Anyone can > dance with anyone who wants to dance with them. Anyone can turn down an > offer to dance for no reason at all. I'm constantly told our community is > the most welcoming they've ever experienced. (Can't vouch for the vastness > of said experience.) I am proud of our community. There's a lot of love in > it. > > I find the topic of tradition being brought into the conversation > baffling. The folk tradition has always been one of changes, evolving, > moving forward. I encourage everyone to give it a whirl. > > -Amy > > On Tue, Mar 12, 2024, 9:23 AM Tanya Merchant via Contra Callers < > contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: > >> I’m bumping this for folks who want to talk about gender preference in >> dance partners. >> >> And while I understand the valid social and historical context that would >> make inactive roles a good thing for the social part of social dancing, >> like Jeff, I’m also really glad we don’t do that much anymore. >> >> >> Tanya H. Merchant >> >> >> On Tue, Mar 12, 2024 at 06:01 Jeff Kaufman via Contra Callers < >> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: >> >>> "The whole point of moving away from Proper to First Couples Improper >>> or Becket was that you then had people of the opposite gender on both >>> sides of you in your minor set, so that all Neighbour and Partner >>> interactions were with the opposite gender" >>> >>> That's one advantage for some people, but another advantage of >>> Improper and Becket is that they make it much easier to have >>> equal-turn dances, where everyone is 'active' simultaneously. No more >>> waiting fifteen times through for a chance to be a "one" and then only >>> getting to dance it twice before the music stops. >>> >>> Jeff >>> >>> On Tue, Mar 12, 2024 at 8:54 AM Katherine Kitching via Contra Callers >>> wrote: >>> > >>> > On the topic of a comfortable swing that maintains the ballroom hold, >>> i'll repeat the suggestion I offered a few months back. >>> > >>> > As part of our transition to promoting a culture of "we encourage >>> everyone to dance with everyone else, regardless of gender, age, level of >>> experience or any other
[Callers] Re: preference for dancing with opposite gender?
I'm nodding with a lot of comments from the last couple days. Louise articulated some base concepts clearly, which a lot of y'all expanded on. There are some contradictory ideas about gender and sexuality with dance, and I think we in general tend to shy away from delving too deeply in public discussion. I've been accused of "shaming" people for asking why a man may prefer dancing with women. The thing is, I've also said what I think nearly everyone - including most/all of the strongest advocates for genderfree contra - has said: its OK to have preferences for partners. I think it is sometimes hard to presume these discussions are done assuming the benefit of good intent, given how much gender and sexuality is an enormous political and civil rights topic in the US and most Western nations. But, I presume this good intent, and I think nearly everyone here does, too, so, I'm taking another stab at this topic. Here's some ideas I've been chewing over in an attempt to dig into this more deeply: - dance is often a courtship ritual - despite this, inter-gender set dancing has a long tradition in Western dance, and partnering with someone hasn't really ever been a "oh, I am attracted to them". To use the overused example of Jane Austen novels, even then it's clear family dance together, friends dance together, and strangers dance together just to have any partner. - children are at our dances. So if a person is choosing partners based on heterosexual tradition, why, um: EW And thus is where the conversation often stops. But to break it down more: - So, when someone says they prefer to dance in non-genderfree dances, with a partner of a different binary-presenting gender person, in trad roles, there's 2 possible, non-exclusive reasons: 1. That their choice is about courtship, but "make exceptions" for people you're not attracted to. Which, I guess is fine in and of itself, but I think people with this preference often may not consider _just how many exceptions_ there are. 2. Their choice is more about embracing traditional gender roles. I'll get back to this. So, in the case of #1, the problem isn't just about "what do we do with the fact that about 5% of people aren't straight". (And realize the number being 3 or 4 times as high among surveyed youth, with numbers lower in areas where anti-lgbtq law and sentiment pervades). The problem is also about fat phobia. And bias against people who aren't "conventionally attractive". And ageism. And disability phobia. Then there's the even worse case of when a person both claims attraction is their main factor for partner preference ... and also has a preference for much younger dancers. :| Pushing back on the idea of "partner preference because of sexual preference" is about all these issues - fatphobia, ageism, disability phobia, beauty-bias, etc. Now, maybe these things aren't a priority to everyone, but, I'm going to assume that the overwhelming majority of people on Shared Weight are interested in most, if not all of them. And, inevitably, remember - youth, beauty, and able-bodiedness all will fade for everyone. In reality, I think partner and role preference for trad-gender-partnering actually has to do more with gender norms. So insofar as sexual-attraction for partner preference, I think pushing back, openly, against this, can benefit dance communities in many ways. And, ultimately if that's not actually the main reason, then it isn't really harming anyone if we present it and deal with it with compassion and patience for those having difficulty with the change. It's not like people aren't going to flirt and meet sexual partners anyway; we simply don't need to establish dance as a courtship-by-default space. Which leads to look at the other reason, #2: wanting trad gender partnering because you just like trad gender roles. In and of itself, that's fine. If you like ways of having your binary gender reinforced, there's nothing wrong with that. And while I'm not transgender, my friends who are and have shifted/come out as a different binary gender identity deserve to have their gender affirmed, too. While me, personally, I don't need reinforcement about being man (which is its own privilege), I respect people's desire for their gender to be respected and celebrated. So, what does that mean for dancing? - Ultimately, as long as people are finding partners and having fun and people are respectful of anyone they meet in line, great! - As noted, splitting up people because of gender is disrespectful on several levels. - That complaining about "ah, so many neighbors are my same gender" is setting one's own preference above everyone else's. In short: it's selfish. - If someone refuses to dance with someone of the same gender (or nonbinary/agender folks who "don't look like the opposite gender") then that's selfish. It's not _as_ selfish as the last item, and, generally, if this is what they choose, I don't see the positive outcomes from pushing it. So, if
[Callers] Re: preference for dancing with opposite gender?
I am super glad that in our (Seattle) dance community the vast majority of people sitting out dances are doing so because they want to rest, or to chat with someone who's resting. There is still a small handful of folks who insist on never partnering with those they think are the same sex as they. This means that more people are having fun dancing, and fewer are sitting out because they can't find a partner. People are dancing with _people_. No one is forcing anyone to dance with anyone else. This is a huge win in my book. I'm one of the organizers of Emerald City Contra Dance. About 18 months ago a dancer told me of a guy who was trying to split up a couple of female-presenting dancers because he didn't want to do dance moves with "the wrong person." He physically put his hands on them to try to move them to the "correct" positions, and force them to dance with male-presenting dancers. When told about this I immediately approached him, told him his behavior was unacceptable, and that he should never try to do that again. He hasn't been back to our dance since. I don't know about the couple he was accosting. I apologized to them on behalf of ECCD. The attitude in our community is mostly one of acceptance. Anyone can dance with anyone who wants to dance with them. Anyone can turn down an offer to dance for no reason at all. I'm constantly told our community is the most welcoming they've ever experienced. (Can't vouch for the vastness of said experience.) I am proud of our community. There's a lot of love in it. I find the topic of tradition being brought into the conversation baffling. The folk tradition has always been one of changes, evolving, moving forward. I encourage everyone to give it a whirl. -Amy On Tue, Mar 12, 2024, 9:23 AM Tanya Merchant via Contra Callers < contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: > I’m bumping this for folks who want to talk about gender preference in > dance partners. > > And while I understand the valid social and historical context that would > make inactive roles a good thing for the social part of social dancing, > like Jeff, I’m also really glad we don’t do that much anymore. > > > Tanya H. Merchant > > > On Tue, Mar 12, 2024 at 06:01 Jeff Kaufman via Contra Callers < > contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: > >> "The whole point of moving away from Proper to First Couples Improper >> or Becket was that you then had people of the opposite gender on both >> sides of you in your minor set, so that all Neighbour and Partner >> interactions were with the opposite gender" >> >> That's one advantage for some people, but another advantage of >> Improper and Becket is that they make it much easier to have >> equal-turn dances, where everyone is 'active' simultaneously. No more >> waiting fifteen times through for a chance to be a "one" and then only >> getting to dance it twice before the music stops. >> >> Jeff >> >> On Tue, Mar 12, 2024 at 8:54 AM Katherine Kitching via Contra Callers >> wrote: >> > >> > On the topic of a comfortable swing that maintains the ballroom hold, >> i'll repeat the suggestion I offered a few months back. >> > >> > As part of our transition to promoting a culture of "we encourage >> everyone to dance with everyone else, regardless of gender, age, level of >> experience or any other factor" - and also as a reaction to covid, we've >> started designating the standard neighbour swing (and default partner >> swing, if you don't know your partner and don't want to experiment), as a >> "modified ballroom hold" - which we call the "elbow hold". >> > >> > This swing gives a little more space between the couple, without in any >> way compromising the effectiveness of the swing in my opinion. (Though I am >> sure there will be some other opinions out there ;). ) >> > >> > Ballroom hands same as always. >> > >> > Other hand cupped around the back of the upper arm of your partner, >> just above the elbow. >> > >> > Taller person's arm goes above the shorter persons arm. >> > >> > The more I practice this hold, the more I like it. >> > I find it makes me more comfortable with everyone (and in fact, as a >> cisgender woman I find it makes the most difference to me when dancing with >> men, I have found I like having a bit of extra space between me and any man >> who is not my spouse :) ) >> > >> > I offer this in the spirit of "something my group finds effective". >> > >> > >> > KK >> > >> > Mar 12, 2024 7:18:46 AM John Sweeney via Contra Callers < >> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net>: >> > >> > Hi all, >> > >> > I once called Chris Page’s dance where the dancers >> scatter individually and find someone with whom to do a Gypsy Meltdown >> (Gypsy & Swing). Many of the ladies got together leaving two men alone in >> the middle of the dance-floor. There was absolutely no way that those two >> men were going to Swing each other in a Ballroom Hold. >> > >> > There was an article in the EFDSS magazine not so long >>
[Callers] Re: preference for dancing with opposite gender?
I’m bumping this for folks who want to talk about gender preference in dance partners. And while I understand the valid social and historical context that would make inactive roles a good thing for the social part of social dancing, like Jeff, I’m also really glad we don’t do that much anymore. Tanya H. Merchant On Tue, Mar 12, 2024 at 06:01 Jeff Kaufman via Contra Callers < contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: > "The whole point of moving away from Proper to First Couples Improper > or Becket was that you then had people of the opposite gender on both > sides of you in your minor set, so that all Neighbour and Partner > interactions were with the opposite gender" > > That's one advantage for some people, but another advantage of > Improper and Becket is that they make it much easier to have > equal-turn dances, where everyone is 'active' simultaneously. No more > waiting fifteen times through for a chance to be a "one" and then only > getting to dance it twice before the music stops. > > Jeff > > On Tue, Mar 12, 2024 at 8:54 AM Katherine Kitching via Contra Callers > wrote: > > > > On the topic of a comfortable swing that maintains the ballroom hold, > i'll repeat the suggestion I offered a few months back. > > > > As part of our transition to promoting a culture of "we encourage > everyone to dance with everyone else, regardless of gender, age, level of > experience or any other factor" - and also as a reaction to covid, we've > started designating the standard neighbour swing (and default partner > swing, if you don't know your partner and don't want to experiment), as a > "modified ballroom hold" - which we call the "elbow hold". > > > > This swing gives a little more space between the couple, without in any > way compromising the effectiveness of the swing in my opinion. (Though I am > sure there will be some other opinions out there ;). ) > > > > Ballroom hands same as always. > > > > Other hand cupped around the back of the upper arm of your partner, just > above the elbow. > > > > Taller person's arm goes above the shorter persons arm. > > > > The more I practice this hold, the more I like it. > > I find it makes me more comfortable with everyone (and in fact, as a > cisgender woman I find it makes the most difference to me when dancing with > men, I have found I like having a bit of extra space between me and any man > who is not my spouse :) ) > > > > I offer this in the spirit of "something my group finds effective". > > > > > > KK > > > > Mar 12, 2024 7:18:46 AM John Sweeney via Contra Callers < > contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net>: > > > > Hi all, > > > > I once called Chris Page’s dance where the dancers scatter > individually and find someone with whom to do a Gypsy Meltdown (Gypsy & > Swing). Many of the ladies got together leaving two men alone in the > middle of the dance-floor. There was absolutely no way that those two men > were going to Swing each other in a Ballroom Hold. > > > > There was an article in the EFDSS magazine not so long ago > about this very challenge. The author was concerned that by going > gender-free they would lose many good male dancers who weren’t comfortable > with the situation. > > > > Someone in these threads said that, if you prefer dancing > with ladies, then there is nothing preventing you from only asking ladies > for a dance. But what happens when you get in the set and find that every > Neighbour that you meet is a man! > > > > I and my wife dance many styles, West Coast Swing, Blues, Ceroc, Modern > Jive, Tango, Salsa, etc. 99% of the time it is one man with one lady (OK, > I specialise in dancing with two ladies at once, but that is another > matter!). Occasionally there will be same-sex pairings, and nobody thinks > anything of it. But it is not being forced on them in the way that contra > dancing is forcing same-sex pairings as you meet and interact with all your > Neighbours. > > > > The whole point of moving away from Proper to First Couples Improper or > Becket was that you then had people of the opposite gender on both sides of > you in your minor set, so that all Neighbour and Partner interactions were > with the opposite gender! > > > > I think part of the challenge is the very close Ballroom-Hold Swing > which many men find too intimate with another man. Of course there are > lots of symmetrical holds that don’t have the same challenge – you are > further apart. They don’t have the “Pointy Hand” to help you remember > which side to finish on. I often use these myself in contra dances when I > have a good partner, doing a different Swing each time through the dance, > but I know which side to finish the Swing on. I suspect the Ballroom-Hold > Swing is too embedded in Contra Dance culture to change now, though, of > course, it was not always so. > > > > The communities that I call for all want men dancing with ladies. I use > geographic and positional calling where it
[Callers] Re: preference for dancing with opposite gender?
"The whole point of moving away from Proper to First Couples Improper or Becket was that you then had people of the opposite gender on both sides of you in your minor set, so that all Neighbour and Partner interactions were with the opposite gender" That's one advantage for some people, but another advantage of Improper and Becket is that they make it much easier to have equal-turn dances, where everyone is 'active' simultaneously. No more waiting fifteen times through for a chance to be a "one" and then only getting to dance it twice before the music stops. Jeff On Tue, Mar 12, 2024 at 8:54 AM Katherine Kitching via Contra Callers wrote: > > On the topic of a comfortable swing that maintains the ballroom hold, i'll > repeat the suggestion I offered a few months back. > > As part of our transition to promoting a culture of "we encourage everyone to > dance with everyone else, regardless of gender, age, level of experience or > any other factor" - and also as a reaction to covid, we've started > designating the standard neighbour swing (and default partner swing, if you > don't know your partner and don't want to experiment), as a "modified > ballroom hold" - which we call the "elbow hold". > > This swing gives a little more space between the couple, without in any way > compromising the effectiveness of the swing in my opinion. (Though I am sure > there will be some other opinions out there ;). ) > > Ballroom hands same as always. > > Other hand cupped around the back of the upper arm of your partner, just > above the elbow. > > Taller person's arm goes above the shorter persons arm. > > The more I practice this hold, the more I like it. > I find it makes me more comfortable with everyone (and in fact, as a > cisgender woman I find it makes the most difference to me when dancing with > men, I have found I like having a bit of extra space between me and any man > who is not my spouse :) ) > > I offer this in the spirit of "something my group finds effective". > > > KK > > Mar 12, 2024 7:18:46 AM John Sweeney via Contra Callers > : > > Hi all, > > I once called Chris Page’s dance where the dancers scatter > individually and find someone with whom to do a Gypsy Meltdown (Gypsy & > Swing). Many of the ladies got together leaving two men alone in the middle > of the dance-floor. There was absolutely no way that those two men were > going to Swing each other in a Ballroom Hold. > > There was an article in the EFDSS magazine not so long ago > about this very challenge. The author was concerned that by going > gender-free they would lose many good male dancers who weren’t comfortable > with the situation. > > Someone in these threads said that, if you prefer dancing with > ladies, then there is nothing preventing you from only asking ladies for a > dance. But what happens when you get in the set and find that every > Neighbour that you meet is a man! > > I and my wife dance many styles, West Coast Swing, Blues, Ceroc, Modern Jive, > Tango, Salsa, etc. 99% of the time it is one man with one lady (OK, I > specialise in dancing with two ladies at once, but that is another matter!). > Occasionally there will be same-sex pairings, and nobody thinks anything of > it. But it is not being forced on them in the way that contra dancing is > forcing same-sex pairings as you meet and interact with all your Neighbours. > > The whole point of moving away from Proper to First Couples Improper or > Becket was that you then had people of the opposite gender on both sides of > you in your minor set, so that all Neighbour and Partner interactions were > with the opposite gender! > > I think part of the challenge is the very close Ballroom-Hold Swing which > many men find too intimate with another man. Of course there are lots of > symmetrical holds that don’t have the same challenge – you are further apart. > They don’t have the “Pointy Hand” to help you remember which side to finish > on. I often use these myself in contra dances when I have a good partner, > doing a different Swing each time through the dance, but I know which side to > finish the Swing on. I suspect the Ballroom-Hold Swing is too embedded in > Contra Dance culture to change now, though, of course, it was not always so. > > The communities that I call for all want men dancing with ladies. I use > geographic and positional calling where it helps. I start most sessions by > saying, “Find a partner, traditionally one man and one lady, but anyone can > dance with anyone.” 99% of the time they will dance with the opposite gender. > > Personally I have a real problem with Larks & Robins since I use Men & Ladies > in my calling. For me the L in Lark makes me think of Ladies, not Left. It > really hurts my brain! > > I am all for anyone dancing with anyone. I dance the Lady’s role and will > Swing anyone. I love Chaos Lines! (And please don’t assume that you know
[Callers] Re: preference for dancing with opposite gender?
On the topic of a comfortable swing that maintains the ballroom hold, i'll repeat the suggestion I offered a few months back. As part of our transition to promoting a culture of "we encourage everyone to dance with everyone else, regardless of gender, age, level of experience or any other factor" - and also as a reaction to covid, we've started designating the standard neighbour swing (and default partner swing, if you don't know your partner and don't want to experiment), as a "modified ballroom hold" - which we call the "elbow hold". This swing gives a little more space between the couple, without in any way compromising the effectiveness of the swing in my opinion. (Though I am sure there will be some other opinions out there ;). ) Ballroom hands same as always. Other hand cupped around the back of the upper arm of your partner, just above the elbow. Taller person's arm goes above the shorter persons arm. The more I practice this hold, the more I like it. I find it makes me more comfortable with everyone (and in fact, as a cisgender woman I find it makes the most difference to me when dancing with men, I have found I like having a bit of extra space between me and any man who is not my spouse :) ) I offer this in the spirit of "something my group finds effective". KK Mar 12, 2024 7:18:46 AM John Sweeney via Contra Callers : > Hi all, > I once called Chris Page’s dance where the dancers scatter > individually and find someone with whom to do a Gypsy Meltdown (Gypsy & > Swing). Many of the ladies got together leaving two men alone in the middle > of the dance-floor. There was absolutely no way that those two men were > going to Swing each other in a Ballroom Hold. > There was an article in the EFDSS magazine not so long ago > about this very challenge. The author was concerned that by going > gender-free they would lose many good male dancers who weren’t comfortable > with the situation. > Someone in these threads said that, if you prefer dancing with > ladies, then there is nothing preventing you from only asking ladies for a > dance. But what happens when you get in the set and find that every > Neighbour that you meet is a man! > I and my wife dance many styles, West Coast Swing, Blues, Ceroc, Modern Jive, > Tango, Salsa, etc. 99% of the time it is one man with one lady (OK, I > specialise in dancing with two ladies at once, but that is another matter!). > Occasionally there will be same-sex pairings, and nobody thinks anything of > it. But it is not being forced on them in the way that contra dancing is > forcing same-sex pairings as you meet and interact with all your Neighbours. > The whole point of moving away from Proper to First Couples Improper or > Becket was that you then had people of the opposite gender on both sides of > you in your minor set, so that all Neighbour and Partner interactions were > with the opposite gender! > I think part of the challenge is the very close Ballroom-Hold Swing which > many men find too intimate with another man. Of course there are lots of > symmetrical holds that don’t have the same challenge – you are further apart. > They don’t have the “Pointy Hand” to help you remember which side to finish > on. I often use these myself in contra dances when I have a good partner, > doing a different Swing each time through the dance, but I know which side to > finish the Swing on. I suspect the Ballroom-Hold Swing is too embedded in > Contra Dance culture to change now, though, of course, it was not always so. > The communities that I call for all want men dancing with ladies. I use > geographic and positional calling where it helps. I start most sessions by > saying, “Find a partner, traditionally one man and one lady, but anyone can > dance with anyone.” 99% of the time they will dance with the opposite gender. > Personally I have a real problem with Larks & Robins since I use Men & Ladies > in my calling. For me the L in Lark makes me think of Ladies, not Left. It > really hurts my brain! > I am all for anyone dancing with anyone. I dance the Lady’s role and will > Swing anyone. I love Chaos Lines! (And please don’t assume that you know > anything about my sexuality!) > I feel that it is very sad that the traditional and historic concepts are > being lost. Our culture has always been very inclusive, with everyone > welcome and anyone dancing with anyone they want. I am not at all convinced > that any benefits outweigh the losses. > Happy dancing, > John > > John Sweeney, Dancer, England j...@modernjive.com 01233 625 362 & 07802 940 > 574 > http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent > ___ Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net To
[Callers] Re: preference for dancing with opposite gender?
Hi all, I once called Chris Page’s dance where the dancers scatter individually and find someone with whom to do a Gypsy Meltdown (Gypsy & Swing). Many of the ladies got together leaving two men alone in the middle of the dance-floor. There was absolutely no way that those two men were going to Swing each other in a Ballroom Hold. There was an article in the EFDSS magazine not so long ago about this very challenge. The author was concerned that by going gender-free they would lose many good male dancers who weren’t comfortable with the situation. Someone in these threads said that, if you prefer dancing with ladies, then there is nothing preventing you from only asking ladies for a dance. But what happens when you get in the set and find that every Neighbour that you meet is a man! I and my wife dance many styles, West Coast Swing, Blues, Ceroc, Modern Jive, Tango, Salsa, etc. 99% of the time it is one man with one lady (OK, I specialise in dancing with two ladies at once, but that is another matter!). Occasionally there will be same-sex pairings, and nobody thinks anything of it. But it is not being forced on them in the way that contra dancing is forcing same-sex pairings as you meet and interact with all your Neighbours. The whole point of moving away from Proper to First Couples Improper or Becket was that you then had people of the opposite gender on both sides of you in your minor set, so that all Neighbour and Partner interactions were with the opposite gender! I think part of the challenge is the very close Ballroom-Hold Swing which many men find too intimate with another man. Of course there are lots of symmetrical holds that don’t have the same challenge – you are further apart. They don’t have the “Pointy Hand” to help you remember which side to finish on. I often use these myself in contra dances when I have a good partner, doing a different Swing each time through the dance, but I know which side to finish the Swing on. I suspect the Ballroom-Hold Swing is too embedded in Contra Dance culture to change now, though, of course, it was not always so. The communities that I call for all want men dancing with ladies. I use geographic and positional calling where it helps. I start most sessions by saying, “Find a partner, traditionally one man and one lady, but anyone can dance with anyone.” 99% of the time they will dance with the opposite gender. Personally I have a real problem with Larks & Robins since I use Men & Ladies in my calling. For me the L in Lark makes me think of Ladies, not Left. It really hurts my brain! I am all for anyone dancing with anyone. I dance the Lady’s role and will Swing anyone. I love Chaos Lines! (And please don’t assume that you know anything about my sexuality!) I feel that it is very sad that the traditional and historic concepts are being lost. Our culture has always been very inclusive, with everyone welcome and anyone dancing with anyone they want. I am not at all convinced that any benefits outweigh the losses. Happy dancing, John John Sweeney, Dancer, England j...@modernjive.com 01233 625 362 & 07802 940 574 http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent ___ Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net To unsubscribe send an email to contracallers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net
[Callers] Re: preference for dancing with opposite gender?
FWIW, in my calling and dancing experience, the ratio of people actually dancing to those on the sidelines is better at the "gender free" events than the "traditional" ones. Of course this makes sense if you consider the situation in terms of possible dance slots to be filled. At the series I help run (Concord MA Scout House, Monday Contras), we used to get complaints (mainly from men but not always) about an "imbalance" in the hall and folks sitting out as they "couldn't find a partner". We shifted to Larks/Robins several years ago and that "balance" issue has never been raised since. Many folks do line up in a "traditional" couple - however, as 50+% of the dance pattern is done with neighbors and you're on average swinging your chosen partner for only 15% of the time... -Don ___ Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net To unsubscribe send an email to contracallers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net
[Callers] Re: preference for dancing with opposite gender?
Hi Ken and all, I want to reiterate that the gender free dances I’ve attended and called aren’t interested in shaming folks for their experience in or preference for gendered dance roles, but we do want to maintain a space that doesn’t gender dance roles either explicitly or implicitly. During the early days of mainstreaming this practice, my dance community struggled with this. Part of our process of switching to non-gendered bird terms was to have folks asking “which one’s the man?” and similar questions. Those in-transition dances often succeeded in having non-gendered role terms, but the dance roles were still largely gender-normed and featured a lot of mixed gender couples in the roles associated with their previously gendered role names. Now that my communities have made the transition, my experience is a lot like what Kat K describes — the vibe is different and everyone really can and does dance with everyone. It’s joyful and fun. My home dance in Santa Cruz, CA, usually has more people and more young attendees than it did before the pandemic (when it was still in transition between gendered and non-gendered practices). And I still dance with plenty of men as partners and neighbors, but they might be on the right or left. The openness to wider possibilities is exciting and fun. Hope that helps. Best wishes, Tanya H. Merchant On Mon, Mar 11, 2024 at 08:51 Ken Panton via Contra Callers < contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: > Katherine Kitching wrote: > > Hi Ken! > > > > Changing the subject line as others suggested. > > > > I would say there is a difference between telling someone "quietly" and > telling > > someone "furtively" :) > > > > We do the former and not the latter! > > > > > > Thanks for the additional information, Kat. > > I'll have to gain more experience in non-gendered contra; COVID has > hampered that, significantly. > > Ken Panton > ___ > Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net > To unsubscribe send an email to contracallers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net > ___ Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net To unsubscribe send an email to contracallers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net
[Callers] Re: preference for dancing with opposite gender?
When people ask me which of Larks and Robins is "the man", I answer as follows: "Lark" is the role which is traditionally called "man". You're welcome to dance whichever role you like, and many people have a role preference. I think it's important to say that the role is traditionally *called* "man", not to say "is traditionally danced by a man". People have always danced on both sides, for a variety of obvious reasons. I'm not going to belabour this point when talking to someone like the above, but I do choose my words carefully. I don't think it's appropriate for someone to insist that they dance a particular role because of their gender (etc), but I do think it's fine for someone to have a role preference, and such a role preference is often borne of experience, and many people's experience includes being pushed into a particular role because of their gender or apparent gender, and that's their dance identity now, and if they want to keep it I think that's fine, I just think that it should not have a gendered name. So I'm quite happy to help them to translate. >Most of our dancers have no clue there used to be an association: I love >that. I do too, and I like to think that any such person overhearing an exchange like the above would think "wow, that's weird that someone thinks that whether you're dancing Robin or Lark depends on your gender, how silly." And doesn't afterwards remember which role had which alleged gender association. regards, ajr, dancing in and near Toronto, Canada ___ Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net To unsubscribe send an email to contracallers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net
[Callers] Re: preference for dancing with opposite gender?
Katherine Kitching wrote: > Hi Ken! > > Changing the subject line as others suggested. > > I would say there is a difference between telling someone "quietly" and > telling > someone "furtively" :) > > We do the former and not the latter! > > Thanks for the additional information, Kat. I'll have to gain more experience in non-gendered contra; COVID has hampered that, significantly. Ken Panton ___ Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net To unsubscribe send an email to contracallers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net
[Callers] Re: preference for dancing with opposite gender?
Hi Ken! Changing the subject line as others suggested. I would say there is a difference between telling someone "quietly" and telling someone "furtively" :) We do the former and not the latter! In our group - which for sure is not the same for everyone - but in our group we the organizers/volunteer helpers have expressly committed to a gender-free environment - so it is important to us not to draw attention to the past association between gender and the two dancing roles. Most of our dancers have no clue there used to be an association: I love that. It has honestly been magical for our group to witness the transformation that ensued in the "vibe" of our dances, once they went gender free. It used to feel more intense, socially - there was more pressure to get the appropriate dance partner, there was more discomfort if you didn't match with the one you had hoped to, there was discomfort in avoiding some people. I'm not saying that has disappeared - but it is palpably less. Many ppl have commented on this. and in our case, our dance numbers are comparable in the gender-free environment to what they were previously (45-90 people per dance), so I feel confident that our dancers like this approach just as much as we the organizers do... Kat K Mar 11, 2024 12:18:34 PM K P : > > > On Mon, Mar 11, 2024, 10:58 Katherine Kitching wrote: >> You should sign your name at the bottom! :) > > Indeed! I forgot. :) > > Thanks for the reply of the experience in your community, Kat. > > I am, however, somewhat troubled by one statement you made, below: > > >> So it would be impossible in our community to recommend one role because you >> will get to dance with more ppl of the opposite gender as a result. Some >> very-long-time members of our community still ask at the door when they need >> to choose a tag, which role is the "gents" or "ladies" role because they are >> comfortable swinging on that side/standing on that side, SO WE TELL THEM >> QUIETLY [emphasis mine]. >> >> > > I'm not quite sure what to make of tiis except to see it as form of shaming > that it needs to be mentioned "quietly". > > ??? > > Ken Panton >> ___ Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net To unsubscribe send an email to contracallers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net
