Re: [Cooker] So, is someone going to file a bug against...
Le sam 19/07/2003 à 14:18, Thierry Vignaud a écrit : > eg: when french political people speak about immigrants, they always > say they must be assimilated instead of integrated/welcomed. or > look for the number of poeple who want to forbid muslim weil[1] in > schools or public bureaucracy whereas of course showing a > catholical cross is not a problem (the idea being forbidding > proselytism...) 1°/ at least the crux can be hidden under your shirt if you don't want to disturb people. 2°/ the crux is small, you have to be aware to noticed it most of the time. 3°/ now you should have a weil and you will see how you will feel. > about the weil, catholic sisters often got authorized bo be weiled > on their ids but now police chief is talking about forbiding it > for muslums. 1°/ they are sisters ! like priest they are a little bit different. If muslim have sister it won't be a pb. Now for common people I found it ... 2°/ look about who wear the weil. Not the first migrants ( mothers ) but the second/third generation. To my mind it seems to be a regression. 3°/ go in the city and you will see some very "interesting" things conceirning girls/women status. Do you know "ni putes, ni soumises" association ? > you just only see the so called "human rights country" surface. eg: > most french people will tell you we've the best social/assurance > system of the world despite we do not live longer :-) we live longer than americans for example. if you are not rich, try to have medicine or be heal in US/GB. Why does you have some britains that comes in some french hospital ? You have some silly things in french system, people you cheat, but at least if you are not rich you have survive well. > but as every other country in the world, it has its drawbacks. sure, u're completly right > france is not as opened as it seems. > > and it's the same for so called regional/minority languages: in 1992, > our House of Representatives make a law to protect french language > against the so called "english language imperialism" (!!!); they told > us that it would never be used againts minority langugaes. The pb you see was the fact that at this time everywhere you had english words ( pub, tv, etc ... ). English was "cool". I have nothing against english, but if you can't use freench words in a pub/ad, or at least translate it ( as not everybody speak english, and french are very bad concerning foreign languages ) it's a pb. > no, of course they do not make fun about those who want to learn > french and britton (or any other minority language) I' m willing to be able to learn creol as I'm from F.W.I ( Guadeloupe ) > > > [1] the question of male/female equality being not the same problem as > accepting foreign people habits It's not habits. If you were in Iran before the ayatollah, or in Syrie, you will see that many women where not wearing weil, or it was little. It is not habits, it's a religious things, and as it's in the laws : no religious things too visible. Have Fatma hand, or whatever you want put the weil ... And for swimming pool ? Are you going to have a discimination with this ? or are you going to separate men/women ?
Re: [Cooker] So, is someone going to file a bug against...
Thierry Vignaud <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > Hey, at least in France it's not illegal to post a sign in English > > (AFAIK), or do business in English (AFAIK). > > of course it is. > if you sell something where documentation is in english, you just > became an out-of-the-law oh, i forget the best part of it: there was an american school in alsace that teach english: they were sued because of this (since they were not using french). no, of course it's not stupid and it prove we're opened to other cultural stuff :-( i do not rember what the judges eventually said though (it was many years ago) viva el bureaucrats !!!
Re: [Cooker] So, is someone going to file a bug against...
Austin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > So, why is this system still in place? Why hasn't someone run for > > government specifically with the idea of getting rid of it? Or, > > just ignore the whole thing, use the "wrong" words without a > > second thought, and don't argue in front of the rest of the world > > lest the Quebecois will start to get the idea that they're as good > > as you > > Hey, at least in France it's not illegal to post a sign in English > (AFAIK), or do business in English (AFAIK). of course it is. if you sell something where documentation is in english, you just became an out-of-the-law you just do not know that we're a country that promote the linguistical liberties and the curtural differences in the sense that everybody that come in france should speak french and only french, must give up their habits eg: when french political people speak about immigrants, they always say they must be assimilated instead of integrated/welcomed. or look for the number of poeple who want to forbid muslim weil[1] in schools or public bureaucracy whereas of course showing a catholical cross is not a problem (the idea being forbidding proselytism...) about the weil, catholic sisters often got authorized bo be weiled on their ids but now police chief is talking about forbiding it for muslums. you just only see the so called "human rights country" surface. eg: most french people will tell you we've the best social/assurance system of the world despite we do not live longer :-) but as every other country in the world, it has its drawbacks. france is not as opened as it seems. and it's the same for so called regional/minority languages: in 1992, our House of Representatives make a law to protect french language against the so called "english language imperialism" (!!!); they told us that it would never be used againts minority langugaes. but last year, the equivalent[2] of us suprem court forbid to include diwan school (that try to save britton language by using efficient[3] methods) because of that law that made them anticonstitutional. in fact, it has not the power to forbid but to advice. their argument was: they refuse because the european law[4] that protect minority languages is anticonstitutional and so has to be rejected (despite the france signed threaties saying that european laws supercede french ones) but the senate follow them rejected the law that would make all britton schools equals to other because of that. now, the senate refuse to alter the 1992 law (that should never have been against minority languages in the first place according to public declarations at that time) because we've not adopt the european law and the government refuse to adopt the european law because the 1992 law makes it anticonstitutional. no, of course they do not make fun about those who want to learn french and britton (or any other minority language) oh, i forget to tell that they reject the britton schools because they do nearly all teaching in britton [but these childrens still have better results in french language tests]) at the same time they in the same time, our state give money to schools that use the same system but to teach french in louisiana ... so if you want to save the britton language, you've to paid taxes for french public schools and schools that teach french in foreign countries *and* to pay for private schools that save it because the state refuse to do anything for britton. when your state give more rights to other countries citizens because they speak french than to you because you want to speak french and britton, it's of course not discrimination or civil rights inequailities but else we've an opened country that go fast on subjects that interest people and who cares about his citizens, ... last but not least: we've a low to discriminate music on radios and tvs not on their quality but on the language the singer used. french sings've 60% of time. others share the remaining 40%. and yet, it's of course not discrimination when sing quality is less important than the language you use nobody seems to understand this is against the free speech right :-( [1] the question of male/female equality being not the same problem as accepting foreign people habits [2] it's not so equivalent since it depends more of the government [3] efficient because despite we should officially all be able to speak one or two foreign languages, most frenc are hopelessly monolingual people [4] http://conventions.coe.int/Treaty/EN/WhatYouWant.asp?NT=148&CM=8&DF=19/07/03
Re: [Cooker] So, is someone going to file a bug against...
On Sat, 2003-07-19 at 02:18, Austin wrote: > Hey, at least in France it's not illegal to post a sign in English (AFAIK). Actually AFAIK it is, unless there is a translation also. But for 10 years we've traded under the name of "The Avignon Institute of English" and have always looked forward to someone trying to take us to court. The free publicity would be well worth it. -- Dave Cotton Directeur The Avignon Institute of English
Re: [Cooker] So, is someone going to file a bug against...
On Sat, 2003-07-19 at 01:54, Andi Payn wrote: > On Friday 18 July 2003 17:18, Austin wrote: > > So while Quebec may not have an Academie Francaise, they work their asses > > off trying to prevent engligh encroachment... and IT WORKS! I have many > > friends from Quebec who are in college and can barely speak English, and > > cannot write it at all. Not that this is a good thing... my point is just > > that it's working (to a degree). > > Well, I have many friends from America who are college graduates and can > barely speak or write English, even though it's usually their first language > (and often their only language, unless you count "yo, like, hae-blo un > pik-keeto es-spaniel, like, y'know?"). > > So, all you have to do is pick up the education policies of > Reagan/Bush/Clinton/Bush America and you'll get the same effect. Given > Alberta's gung-ho emulation of America, they'll probably surpass Quebec in > English illiteracy soon /me plants extremely large signpost reading: OFF TOPIC -- adamw
Re: [Cooker] So, is someone going to file a bug against...
On Friday 18 July 2003 17:18, Austin wrote: > So while Quebec may not have an Academie Francaise, they work their asses > off trying to prevent engligh encroachment... and IT WORKS! I have many > friends from Quebec who are in college and can barely speak English, and > cannot write it at all. Not that this is a good thing... my point is just > that it's working (to a degree). Well, I have many friends from America who are college graduates and can barely speak or write English, even though it's usually their first language (and often their only language, unless you count "yo, like, hae-blo un pik-keeto es-spaniel, like, y'know?"). So, all you have to do is pick up the education policies of Reagan/Bush/Clinton/Bush America and you'll get the same effect. Given Alberta's gung-ho emulation of America, they'll probably surpass Quebec in English illiteracy soon
Re: [Cooker] So, is someone going to file a bug against...
On 2003.07.18 18:48, Andi Payn wrote: So, why is this system still in place? Why hasn't someone run for government specifically with the idea of getting rid of it? Or, just ignore the whole thing, use the "wrong" words without a second thought, and don't argue in front of the rest of the world lest the Quebecois will start to get the idea that they're as good as you Hey, at least in France it's not illegal to post a sign in English (AFAIK), or do business in English (AFAIK). Hell, Canada is a bilingual country but if an immigrant is unlucky enough to land in Montreal, it's illegal for him to send his kids to any shool with more that 5% English. So while Quebec may not have an Academie Francaise, they work their asses off trying to prevent engligh encroachment... and IT WORKS! I have many friends from Quebec who are in college and can barely speak English, and cannot write it at all. Not that this is a good thing... my point is just that it's working (to a degree). Austin -- Austin Acton Hon.B.Sc. Synthetic Organic Chemist, Teaching Assistant Department of Chemistry, York University, Toronto MandrakeClub Volunteer (www.mandrakeclub.com) homepage: www.groundstate.ca
Re: [Cooker] So, is someone going to file a bug against...
On Friday 18 July 2003 1:21 pm, Levi Ramsey wrote: > The use of "e-mail" instead of "courriel" in the French translations? Take a look at this: http://www.twincities.com/mld/twincities/news/6333463.htm :) David Sansome
Re: [Cooker] So, is someone going to file a bug against...
It was French linguists (back in the pre-Chomsky dark ages) who first showed what a silly idea this kind of system is--in words not much different from Thierry's. And every Frenchman that I talk to thinks the whole thing is stupid. And yet, France is the only country in the world that still attempts to legally enforce some bizarre idea of "correct" language change. So, why is this system still in place? Why hasn't someone run for government specifically with the idea of getting rid of it? Or, just ignore the whole thing, use the "wrong" words without a second thought, and don't argue in front of the rest of the world lest the Quebecois will start to get the idea that they're as good as you It may sound a bit odd for an American to throw stones, since the US has more stupid laws and policies than all of Europe put together--but that's just the point: We expect you to be more rational than us, and it's always disappointing to see you being as stupid and jingoistic as Americans--or, worse, as whinily accepting as Americans of stupid and jingoistic policies that you actually hate.
Re: [Cooker] So, is someone going to file a bug against...
On Friday 18 July 2003 20:56, Olivier Blin wrote: > > The use of "e-mail" instead of "courriel" in the French > > translations? > > I'm a native french speaker and I've never heard anyone saying the > word "courriel". All french people I know use the word "e-mail", even > teachers. So I guess it's ok to keep "e-mail". well, in quebec, we use 'clavarder' for chat, and mel for 'email'. I think they sound nicer than the idea of our dears "academiens" -- Michaël Scherer
Re: [Cooker] So, is someone going to file a bug against...
Le Vendredi 18 Juillet 2003 20:56, Olivier Blin a écrit : > > The use of "e-mail" instead of "courriel" in the French translations? > > I'm a native french speaker and I've never heard anyone saying the word > "courriel". All french people I know use the word "e-mail", even teachers. > So I guess it's ok to keep "e-mail". I often use "Courriel" which come from "Courrier Electronique". Some people also try "mél" without a great success. Our cousins of Quebec who take care of french langage better than us, use "courriel". -- Pierre Jarillon - http://pjarillon.free.fr/ Vice-président de l'ABUL : http://abul.org/
Re: [Cooker] So, is someone going to file a bug against...
On Fri, 2003-07-18 at 18:21, Levi Ramsey wrote: > The use of "e-mail" instead of "courriel" in the French translations? Heh :). Good one, Levi... -- adamw
Re: [Cooker] So, is someone going to file a bug against...
Pierre Jarillon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > I'm a native french speaker and I've never heard anyone saying the > > word "courriel". All french people I know use the word "e-mail", > > even teachers. So I guess it's ok to keep "e-mail". > > I often use "Courriel" which come from "Courrier Electronique". > Some people also try "mél" without a great success. > Our cousins of Quebec who take care of french langage better than > us, use "courriel". i don't see systematical translation of foreign words as "caring more about our language" french language has historically merged quite a lot of words from foreign languages (continental celtic, britton, german, jewish (bible surnames), ...) english has done the same, especially with french because of the english/normand dynasty after 1066 (so depending of your social class, you eat pork or pig :-)) let do not wast time trying to revert social/linguistic evolution. languages always evolve through creating/adopting new words. you cannot alter people behaviour once a word or an idiomatic form has been massively used. and especially don't blindly adopt stupid propositions from senile academician... it's stupit to replace a word that is at least somewhat meaningful in another language by another one that sound more french but where you lost the initial sense (eg: cédérom vs CD-ROM, courriel[1] vs e-mail, ...) [1] this is an insane non-sense since nobody will think that the el suffix references electronics since french languages rules would never have used another word the abbreviation as a suffix but use compound words. this is replacing a meaningful word (in another language) by a meaningless french word constructed on a somewhat altered english grammatical rules, which is totally dumb. since we use sometimes mail instead of e-mail, courrier is at least more sane than courriel
Re: [Cooker] So, is someone going to file a bug against...
Ainsi parlait Olivier Blin : > > The use of "e-mail" instead of "courriel" in the French translations? > > All french people I know use the word "e-mail", even teachers. Anybody is allowed to teach nowadays... -- Disks are always full. It is futile to try to get more disk space. Data expands to fill any void. -- Murphy's Computer Laws n°4
Re: [Cooker] So, is someone going to file a bug against...
> The use of "e-mail" instead of "courriel" in the French translations? I'm a native french speaker and I've never heard anyone saying the word "courriel". All french people I know use the word "e-mail", even teachers. So I guess it's ok to keep "e-mail". -- Olivier Blin
Re: [Cooker] So, is someone going to file a bug against...
Levi Ramsey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > The use of "e-mail" instead of "courriel" in the French > translations? i see no reason to follow a stupid suggestion just because it has been done by some stupid governemental people that are supposed to be the most intelligent about french language. eg: they've the great idea to replace acronyms (which have a signification by themselves) by a phonetic translation (CD-ROM -> cédérom, ...) in fact, in the past, most of their suggestion badly failled (one big exception being "logiciel" for software [but that one was suppossed to failled from the beginning... but it succeeded]), such as mev for ram, ... i used to have a book about "official" french words for computer science words. quite a lot of its contents was pure garbage that nobody used. every language always keep inventing new words and adopting words from other languages. i see nothing wrong with it. i do feel wrong in reinventing all "foreign words" into french just because they're foreign. look like almost racist for me (but french people used to have a superiority/inferiority complex...). -- thierry who is feeling bad about the stupid burocrats of his country government
[Cooker] So, is someone going to file a bug against...
The use of "e-mail" instead of "courriel" in the French translations? -- Levi Ramsey [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Take due notice and govern yourselves accordingly. Currently playing: Metallica - ReLoad - Where The Wild Things Are Linux 2.4.21-3mdk 13:21:00 up 1 day, 20 min, 9 users, load average: 0.32, 0.27, 0.20
