Re: [Cooker] icons require sound? Dependency wars
>From: Stefan van der Eijk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >Yura Gusev wrote: > >>On Sat, 20 Oct 2001, Stefan van der Eijk wrote: >> >>>Let's see... the buildoutput is available at: >>> >>>http://cm61-10-20-87.hkcable.com.hk/build/cooker/i586/OK/kups-1.1-11mdk.src.rpm.txt >>> >>>The only place in the buildoutput where I can find mcopidl is: >>> >>>checking for dcopidl2cpp... /usr/bin/dcopidl2cpp >>>checking for mcopidl... /usr/bin/mcopidl >>>checking for kdb2html... /usr/bin/kdb2html >>> >>>So it probably doesn't use this program to Build the application either. >>>But if i leave out the BuildRequires, and arts isn't installed the >>>package won't be rebuilt, because it will hang on the ./configure. >>> >>>What should I do? >>>1/ Keep the BuildRequires and just let it be; >>>2/ Remove the BuildRequires, and have a broken package (at least on my >>>rebuilding system); >>>3/ Patch the source to let ./configure not check for mcopidl so we can >>>drop the BuildRequires: arts. This means there is another patch to make >>>& maintain and figuring all this out takes time. Feel free to submit >>>such a patch and I'll put it in; >>>4/ Report a bug to the authors of the kups software and when the bug is >>>fixed drop the BuildRequires: arts; >>> >> >>4 is the best solution. I think they just used generic kde make file. So >>it's up to them to fix this problem. >> >Yes. > >A lot of other kde software also uses this strategy. The kde-i18n-* and >koffice-i18n-* packages are BuildRequire arts and kdelibs > That doesn't make it right. Bad software engineering should not be propagated, no matter who started it. ___ Grimau Lysik'an, The Bionic Elf _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
Re: [Cooker] icons require sound? Dependency wars
>From: Stefan van der Eijk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Grimau Lysik'an wrote: > >>>From: Stefan van der Eijk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>> #2) You say nothing about the reason. >>> >>> >>>./configure was looking for /usr/bin/mcopidl, and couldn't find it. >>> >>>[stefan@taz OK]$ urpmf /usr/bin/mcopidl >>>arts:/usr/bin/mcopidl >>> >>>So I added BuildRequires arts. >> >> >>This is what I am talking about - adding a requirement just to make it >>work. Do you know that mcopidl is REALLY needed, or are you just >>trying to make ./configure happy? > >Let's see... the buildoutput is available at: > >http://cm61-10-20-87.hkcable.com.hk/build/cooker/i586/OK/kups-1.1-11mdk.src.rpm.txt > >The only place in the buildoutput where I can find mcopidl is: > >checking for dcopidl2cpp... /usr/bin/dcopidl2cpp >checking for mcopidl... /usr/bin/mcopidl >checking for kdb2html... /usr/bin/kdb2html > > >So it probably doesn't use this program to Build the application either. >But if i leave out the BuildRequires, and arts isn't installed the >package won't be rebuilt, because it will hang on the ./configure. > >What should I do? >1/ Keep the BuildRequires and just let it be; >2/ Remove the BuildRequires, and have a broken package (at least on my >rebuilding system); >3/ Patch the source to let ./configure not check for mcopidl so we can >drop the BuildRequires: arts. This means there is another patch to make >& maintain and figuring all this out takes time. Feel free to submit >such a patch and I'll put it in; >4/ Report a bug to the authors of the kups software and when the bug is >fixed drop the BuildRequires: arts; Obviously 4. If you have the time, doing 3 while waiting for it to be fixed would be good, but I gather you don't. > >>If mcopidl is really needed, then it's obviously NOT just an arts >>thing and should be taken out and put in a more reasonable place. (I >>know that isn't what you are working on at the moment - but someone >>should be). > >How about we take a different look at this? The mcopidl program, in wich >package should it reside? The following files are in RedHat's Rawhide >art s package: > >[stefan@taz RPMS]$ rpm -qipl arts-2.2.1-1.alpha.rpm | grep bin >/usr/bin/artscat >/usr/bin/artsd >/usr/bin/artsdsp >/usr/bin/artsplay >/usr/bin/artsshell >/usr/bin/artswrapper > >And for cooker: > >[stefan@taz RPMS]$ rpm -qpl arts-2.2.1-8mdk.i586.rpm >libarts2-2.2.1-8mdk.i586.rpm libarts2-devel-2.2.1-8mdk.i586.rpm | sort | >grep bin >/usr/bin/artscat >/usr/bin/artsc-config >/usr/bin/artsd >/usr/bin/artsdsp >/usr/bin/artsplay >/usr/bin/artsshell >/usr/bin/artswrapper >/usr/bin/mcopidl > >The mcopidl binary seems to be in a differen package on cooker. In >Rawhide mcopidl can be found in: kdelibs-sound-devel-2.2.1-1.alpha.rpm. >Cooker doesn't have kdelibs-sound-devel anymore... > >Please advise. Depends on if mcopidl is used anywhere else. If it's always used with arts and only arts (not including incorrectly built configure scripts) then leave it where it is. ___ Grimau Lysik'an, The Bionic Elf _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
Re: [Cooker] icons require sound? Dependency wars
Yura Gusev wrote: >On Sat, 20 Oct 2001, Stefan van der Eijk wrote: > >>Let's see... the buildoutput is available at: >> >>http://cm61-10-20-87.hkcable.com.hk/build/cooker/i586/OK/kups-1.1-11mdk.src.rpm.txt >> >>The only place in the buildoutput where I can find mcopidl is: >> >>checking for dcopidl2cpp... /usr/bin/dcopidl2cpp >>checking for mcopidl... /usr/bin/mcopidl >>checking for kdb2html... /usr/bin/kdb2html >> >>So it probably doesn't use this program to Build the application either. >>But if i leave out the BuildRequires, and arts isn't installed the >>package won't be rebuilt, because it will hang on the ./configure. >> >>What should I do? >>1/ Keep the BuildRequires and just let it be; >>2/ Remove the BuildRequires, and have a broken package (at least on my >>rebuilding system); >>3/ Patch the source to let ./configure not check for mcopidl so we can >>drop the BuildRequires: arts. This means there is another patch to make >>& maintain and figuring all this out takes time. Feel free to submit >>such a patch and I'll put it in; >>4/ Report a bug to the authors of the kups software and when the bug is >>fixed drop the BuildRequires: arts; >> > >4 is the best solution. I think they just used generic kde make file. So >it's up to them to fix this problem. > Yes. A lot of other kde software also uses this strategy. The kde-i18n-* and koffice-i18n-* packages are BuildRequire arts and kdelibs Stefan
Re: [Cooker] icons require sound? Dependency wars
On Sat, 20 Oct 2001, Stefan van der Eijk wrote: > Let's see... the buildoutput is available at: > > http://cm61-10-20-87.hkcable.com.hk/build/cooker/i586/OK/kups-1.1-11mdk.src.rpm.txt > > The only place in the buildoutput where I can find mcopidl is: > > checking for dcopidl2cpp... /usr/bin/dcopidl2cpp > checking for mcopidl... /usr/bin/mcopidl > checking for kdb2html... /usr/bin/kdb2html > > So it probably doesn't use this program to Build the application either. > But if i leave out the BuildRequires, and arts isn't installed the > package won't be rebuilt, because it will hang on the ./configure. > > What should I do? > 1/ Keep the BuildRequires and just let it be; > 2/ Remove the BuildRequires, and have a broken package (at least on my > rebuilding system); > 3/ Patch the source to let ./configure not check for mcopidl so we can > drop the BuildRequires: arts. This means there is another patch to make > & maintain and figuring all this out takes time. Feel free to submit > such a patch and I'll put it in; > 4/ Report a bug to the authors of the kups software and when the bug is > fixed drop the BuildRequires: arts; 4 is the best solution. I think they just used generic kde make file. So it's up to them to fix this problem. -- 7:51pm up 3 days, 7:47, 1 user, load average: 0.00, 0.00, 0.00 __ | / \ |Iouri Goussev// \\ \_\\ //_/ [EMAIL PROTECTED] _\\()//_ .'/()\'. Foo-Bar / // \\ \ jgs\\ // http://foobar.irc-unix.net| \__/ | I am not 31337. But I can use the Vi editor... ;-0
Re: [Cooker] icons require sound? Dependency wars
Grimau Lysik'an wrote: >> From: Stefan van der Eijk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> >>> #2) You say nothing about the reason. >> >> >> ./configure was looking for /usr/bin/mcopidl, and couldn't find it. >> >> [stefan@taz OK]$ urpmf /usr/bin/mcopidl >> arts:/usr/bin/mcopidl >> >> So I added BuildRequires arts. > > > This is what I am talking about - adding a requirement just to make it > work. Do you know that mcopidl is REALLY needed, or are you just > trying to make ./configure happy? Let's see... the buildoutput is available at: http://cm61-10-20-87.hkcable.com.hk/build/cooker/i586/OK/kups-1.1-11mdk.src.rpm.txt The only place in the buildoutput where I can find mcopidl is: checking for dcopidl2cpp... /usr/bin/dcopidl2cpp checking for mcopidl... /usr/bin/mcopidl checking for kdb2html... /usr/bin/kdb2html So it probably doesn't use this program to Build the application either. But if i leave out the BuildRequires, and arts isn't installed the package won't be rebuilt, because it will hang on the ./configure. What should I do? 1/ Keep the BuildRequires and just let it be; 2/ Remove the BuildRequires, and have a broken package (at least on my rebuilding system); 3/ Patch the source to let ./configure not check for mcopidl so we can drop the BuildRequires: arts. This means there is another patch to make & maintain and figuring all this out takes time. Feel free to submit such a patch and I'll put it in; 4/ Report a bug to the authors of the kups software and when the bug is fixed drop the BuildRequires: arts; > If mcopidl is really needed, then it's obviously NOT just an arts > thing and should be taken out and put in a more reasonable place. (I > know that isn't what you are working on at the moment - but someone > should be). How about we take a different look at this? The mcopidl program, in wich package should it reside? The following files are in RedHat's Rawhide art s package: [stefan@taz RPMS]$ rpm -qipl arts-2.2.1-1.alpha.rpm | grep bin /usr/bin/artscat /usr/bin/artsd /usr/bin/artsdsp /usr/bin/artsplay /usr/bin/artsshell /usr/bin/artswrapper And for cooker: [stefan@taz RPMS]$ rpm -qpl arts-2.2.1-8mdk.i586.rpm libarts2-2.2.1-8mdk.i586.rpm libarts2-devel-2.2.1-8mdk.i586.rpm | sort | grep bin /usr/bin/artscat /usr/bin/artsc-config /usr/bin/artsd /usr/bin/artsdsp /usr/bin/artsplay /usr/bin/artsshell /usr/bin/artswrapper /usr/bin/mcopidl The mcopidl binary seems to be in a differen package on cooker. In Rawhide mcopidl can be found in: kdelibs-sound-devel-2.2.1-1.alpha.rpm. Cooker doesn't have kdelibs-sound-devel anymore... Please advise. Stefan van der Eijk
Re: [Cooker] icons require sound? Dependency wars
>From: Stefan van der Eijk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>#2) You say nothing about the reason. > >./configure was looking for /usr/bin/mcopidl, and couldn't find it. > >[stefan@taz OK]$ urpmf /usr/bin/mcopidl >arts:/usr/bin/mcopidl > >So I added BuildRequires arts. This is what I am talking about - adding a requirement just to make it work. Do you know that mcopidl is REALLY needed, or are you just trying to make ./configure happy? If mcopidl is really needed, then it's obviously NOT just an arts thing and should be taken out and put in a more reasonable place. (I know that isn't what you are working on at the moment - but someone should be). > >>#3) All requirements and the "why" of them should be documented for >>any serious development project. If you can't document why you >>included the requirement then it's not likely you know. And if you >>don't know, then don't put it in there. Adding deps just cause it >>"makes it work" is not software development, it's playing around. > >The thing is, you can document all of this stuff, produce tonnes of >comments. Will it serve a purpose? If you feel documenting everything in >great detail serves a pupose, please specify with how much detail I >should document the changes I make to the packages. > Any time you add a dependency you should say why. And "to make it work" is not a good reason. :) There are a great many books available on software development - I can guarantee that every one that mentions the subject advises in favor of documentation. It may be a pain in the butt at times, but it can save a lot of bewilderment in the future. ___ Grimau Lysik'an, The Bionic Elf _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
Re: [Cooker] icons require sound? Dependency wars
On Fri, 19 Oct 2001, Grimau Lysik'an wrote: > That's one of the worst answers I've seen on this list. > > #1) BuildRequires are important - you make light of them. > #2) You say nothing about the reason. > #3) All requirements and the "why" of them should be documented for any > serious development project. If you can't document why you included the > requirement then it's not likely you know. And if you don't know, then don't > put it in there. Adding deps just cause it "makes it work" is not software > development, it's playing around. I tryed to build it from tar and it really ask for arts. So i think i will as kups developers about this. This is not Mandrake fault. -- 12:52pm up 3 days, 49 min, 1 user, load average: 0.02, 0.01, 0.00 __ | / \ |Iouri Goussev// \\ \_\\ //_/ [EMAIL PROTECTED] _\\()//_ .'/()\'. Foo-Bar / // \\ \ jgs\\ // http://foobar.irc-unix.net| \__/ | I am not 31337. But I can use the Vi editor... ;-0
Re: [Cooker] icons require sound? Dependency wars
> > >>>#3) All requirements and the "why" of them should be documented for >>>any serious development project. If you can't document why you >>>included the requirement then it's not likely you know. And if you >>>don't know, then don't put it in there. Adding deps just cause it >>>"makes it work" is not software development, it's playing around. >>> > >This is better point though. Stefan, if you have added one more line >"configure requires /usr/bin/mcopidl" in the changelog then this >kind of flamewar may not occur right now. > I could do that, no problem. But: 1/ It'll drain a lot of my time and create long (useless?) changelog entries; 2/ When I modify the BuildRequires the resulting binary package is the same as the previous one. (I'm so suprised people make a big fuss about it); I'd rather get some clarity about what BuildRequires are and that BuildRequires != Requires, ==> what the core of this flamewar is all about. Stefan >Of course, it doesn't mean one should document why 1+1=2, but for the >less comprehensible things, it's still worthy to write a note about it. > Eventually you could write an entry (in sesamestreet language) about every error you bumped into when fixing a package, it'll be lengthy and useless... I also don't see other packagers do it either, i.e. quite often I don't understand the changelog entries, but then again, I'm not very bright :-) Stefan
Re: [Cooker] icons require sound? Dependency wars
On Fri, 19 Oct 2001, Stefan van der Eijk wrote: > > #2) You say nothing about the reason. > > ./configure was looking for /usr/bin/mcopidl, and couldn't find it. > [stefan@taz OK]$ urpmf /usr/bin/mcopidl > arts:/usr/bin/mcopidl > So I added BuildRequires arts. So is everybody fed up with this kind of flamewar? It's "BuildRequires" not "Requires", so one doesn't need a sound card before installing mandrake_desk. Even one installs arts doesn't mean sound card must be present. > > #3) All requirements and the "why" of them should be documented for > > any serious development project. If you can't document why you > > included the requirement then it's not likely you know. And if you > > don't know, then don't put it in there. Adding deps just cause it > > "makes it work" is not software development, it's playing around. This is better point though. Stefan, if you have added one more line "configure requires /usr/bin/mcopidl" in the changelog then this kind of flamewar may not occur right now. Of course, it doesn't mean one should document why 1+1=2, but for the less comprehensible things, it's still worthy to write a note about it. Abel
Re: [Cooker] icons require sound? Dependency wars
> That's one of the worst answers I've seen on this list. Thanks for the compliment :-) > #1) BuildRequires are important - you make light of them. Perhaps. I'm rebuilding the distro weekly on my alpha and x86 computers, the scripts I use install the required BuildRequires before rebuilding the package. Through this rebuilding problems in the distribution can be spotted early and fixed quickly. I beleive it serves a pupose. > #2) You say nothing about the reason. ./configure was looking for /usr/bin/mcopidl, and couldn't find it. [stefan@taz OK]$ urpmf /usr/bin/mcopidl arts:/usr/bin/mcopidl So I added BuildRequires arts. > #3) All requirements and the "why" of them should be documented for > any serious development project. If you can't document why you > included the requirement then it's not likely you know. And if you > don't know, then don't put it in there. Adding deps just cause it > "makes it work" is not software development, it's playing around. The thing is, you can document all of this stuff, produce tonnes of comments. Will it serve a purpose? If you feel documenting everything in great detail serves a pupose, please specify with how much detail I should document the changes I make to the packages. Stefan
Re: [Cooker] icons require sound? Dependency wars
>From: Stefan van der Eijk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> >>Subject: [CHRPM] mandrake_desk-8.1-21mdk >> >>- BuildRequires: arts >> >>Why does package that contains icons&backgrounds needs sound server? >> >Good question, but it does, really. > No, it doesn't. >> >>OK maybe it does. But tell me WHY kups KDE printer configuration tool >>needs it, any sober reason? To many deps is bad thing. Can we do anything >>about it or it is a linux way? >> >Is it really important? Come on, it's a BuildRequires, as in Required to >Build the package. It doesn't say anything about the dependancies of the >binary package. > >If you really want to know why it's needed, please examine the source of >the package. > That's one of the worst answers I've seen on this list. #1) BuildRequires are important - you make light of them. #2) You say nothing about the reason. #3) All requirements and the "why" of them should be documented for any serious development project. If you can't document why you included the requirement then it's not likely you know. And if you don't know, then don't put it in there. Adding deps just cause it "makes it work" is not software development, it's playing around. ___ Grimau Lysik'an, The Bionic Elf _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
Re: [Cooker] icons require sound? Dependency wars
> > >Subject: [CHRPM] mandrake_desk-8.1-21mdk > >- BuildRequires: arts > >Why does package that contains icons&backgrounds needs sound server? > Good question, but it does, really. >>>No, it doesn't. >>> > >OK maybe it does. But tell me WHY kups KDE printer configuration tool >needs it, any sober reason? To many deps is bad thing. Can we do anything >about it or it is a linux way? > Is it really important? Come on, it's a BuildRequires, as in Required to Build the package. It doesn't say anything about the dependancies of the binary package. If you really want to know why it's needed, please examine the source of the package. Thanks! Stefan
Re: [Cooker] icons require sound? Dependency wars
On Fri, 19 Oct 2001, Stefan van der Eijk wrote: > Leon Brooks wrote: > > >On Thursday 18 October 2001 23:50, you wrote: > > > >>Yura Gusev wrote: > >> > >>>Subject: [CHRPM] mandrake_desk-8.1-21mdk > >>> > > > >>>- BuildRequires: arts > >>> > > > >>>Why does package that contains icons&backgrounds needs sound server? > >>> > > > >>Good question, but it does, really. > >> > > > >No, it doesn't. > > OK maybe it does. But tell me WHY kups KDE printer configuration tool needs it, any sober reason? To many deps is bad thing. Can we do anything about it or it is a linux way? -- 9:38pm up 2 days, 9:35, 1 user, load average: 0.00, 0.00, 0.00 __ | / \ |Iouri Goussev// \\ \_\\ //_/ [EMAIL PROTECTED] _\\()//_ .'/()\'. Foo-Bar / // \\ \ jgs\\ // http://foobar.irc-unix.net| \__/ | I am not 31337. But I can use the Vi editor... ;-0
Re: [Cooker] icons require sound? Dependency wars
Leon Brooks wrote: >On Thursday 18 October 2001 23:50, you wrote: > >>Yura Gusev wrote: >> >>>Subject: [CHRPM] mandrake_desk-8.1-21mdk >>> > >>>- BuildRequires: arts >>> > >>>Why does package that contains icons&backgrounds needs sound server? >>> > >>Good question, but it does, really. >> > >No, it doesn't. > OK. Why don't you remove arts from your system and try to rebuild the package (use --nodeps). You'll see where it stops. This packages requires /usr/bin/mcopidl, which happens to be in the arts package. >I do sound processing on a machine with no sound card, no >sound daemon. > >These kind of dependencies really annoy me, > ??? You know what annoys me? Just ignoring dependancies. That's what's been happening for too long now and it results in broken, unbuildable packages. In theory you should be able to rebuild all packages when you have rpm-build + the BuildRequires installed for the package you're rebuilding. That's what I'm working at. >like having to install MySQL to >get certain server modules to work, not because I want MySQL but because >MySQL functionality is linked into the module when it should be a separate >sub-module. Splitting functionality into finer grains means more package >files, but it also helps to avoid interdependency nightmares, particularly >when upgrading or on low-resource systems. It's not as if RPMDrake is short >of problems anyway. > You'll still need a BuildRequires on MySQL for the src.rpm, or not? >I notice that each successive generation of Mandrake splits the previous >generation's RPMs ever finer, but also adds more features, many of which >cause lumping-together of functionality. > >The ideal solution is to ship mandrake_desk.*.rpm and >mandrake_desk-sounds.*.rpm plus pay more attention to dependency and bundling >issues when adding new features to the packages. > Please make the package and suggest the changes to the packager. Even if you split it up into 2 (or more) packages, arts will still be needed as a BuildRequires... Stefan
Re: [Cooker] icons require sound? Dependency wars
On Thursday 18 October 2001 23:50, you wrote: > Yura Gusev wrote: >> Subject: [CHRPM] mandrake_desk-8.1-21mdk >> - BuildRequires: arts >> Why does package that contains icons&backgrounds needs sound server? > Good question, but it does, really. No, it doesn't. I do sound processing on a machine with no sound card, no sound daemon. These kind of dependencies really annoy me, like having to install MySQL to get certain server modules to work, not because I want MySQL but because MySQL functionality is linked into the module when it should be a separate sub-module. Splitting functionality into finer grains means more package files, but it also helps to avoid interdependency nightmares, particularly when upgrading or on low-resource systems. It's not as if RPMDrake is short of problems anyway. I notice that each successive generation of Mandrake splits the previous generation's RPMs ever finer, but also adds more features, many of which cause lumping-together of functionality. The ideal solution is to ship mandrake_desk.*.rpm and mandrake_desk-sounds.*.rpm plus pay more attention to dependency and bundling issues when adding new features to the packages. Cheers; Leon
