[CREATE] Code of Conduct

[Louis Desjardins]

Hi all,

I am asked by PSF if we have a Code of Conduct?

I am sure that at some point in time that question was raised among us but
I can’t recall if we reached a consensus and if so where would that text be?

PSF could consider funding us but we’d need a published Code of Conduct.

A quick follow-up will be appreciated.

Thanks!

Louis
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Re: [CREATE] Code of Conduct

[Andrew Chadwick]

It was mentioned a while back [0]. I'm distinctly at the edge of
organization myself, but I want to see LGM2014 publish a good one
before I attend.

Do the PSF have a sample one? If not, simplest to start with the CC0
one on GeekFeminism[1] suitably tailored, just like PyCon. A published
incident handling procedure like [2] would be a good idea too.

"PyCon’s Code of Conduct is structured after one created by The
Ada Initiative and others, available under the Creative Commons Zero
license at [...][1]." [3]

And add it to the Ada Initiative's list[4] when it's done to get the word out ☺

[0] http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/create/2012-December/004500.html
[1] http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Conference_anti-harassment/Policy
[2] https://us.pycon.org/2013/about/code-of-conduct/harassment-incidents/
[3] 
http://pyfound.blogspot.co.uk/2012/12/psf-moves-to-require-code-of-conduct.html
[4] http://adainitiative.org/what-we-do/conference-policies/

On 14 January 2014 19:15, Louis Desjardins  wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I am asked by PSF if we have a Code of Conduct?
>
> I am sure that at some point in time that question was raised among us but I
> can’t recall if we reached a consensus and if so where would that text be?
>
> PSF could consider funding us but we’d need a published Code of Conduct.
>
> A quick follow-up will be appreciated.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Louis
>
> ___
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>



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Re: [CREATE] Code of Conduct

[Liam R E Quin]

On Tue, 2014-01-14 at 19:45 +, Andrew Chadwick wrote:
> It was mentioned a while back [0]. I'm distinctly at the edge of
> organization myself, but I want to see LGM2014 publish a good one
> before I attend.

It's often easier to change an organization from within... maybe there
are people who are able to go to the event who can champion this?

Liam

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Pictures from old books: http://fromoldbooks.org/
Ankh: irc.sorcery.net irc.gnome.org freenode/#xml

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Re: [CREATE] Code of Conduct

[Tobias Ellinghaus]

Am Dienstag, 14. Januar 2014, 14:15:34 schrieb Louis Desjardins:
> Hi all,

Hi,

I guess you are talking about LGM? Just in case I added the corresponding list 
to the recipients, too.

> I am asked by PSF if we have a Code of Conduct?

Not that I am aware of. But I might be wrong here.

> I am sure that at some point in time that question was raised among us but
> I can’t recall if we reached a consensus and if so where would that text be?
> 
> PSF could consider funding us but we’d need a published Code of Conduct.

I don't think we should have something like that. LGM has always been an event 
that was meant to be fun for everyone. No formal rules, no pressure, just nice 
people that know how to behave and use common sense. That applies both how to 
act but also how to react to actions of others. Formalizing that into any sort 
of "event law" is both unnecessary and in my eyes even hurting the free and 
open approach of LGM.

If we really need something written down I would propose this:

§1 Behave
§2 Use common sense when dealing with others
§3 Learn from the reactions of others

Just my two cents.

> A quick follow-up will be appreciated.
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Louis

Tobias

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Re: [CREATE] Code of Conduct

[Jon Nordby]

I support having a code of conduct. I had a read through the one at
http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Conference_anti-harassment/Policy
and found it to be very sane, both the statement and the practical
guideline on how organization should deal with matters.

Having a policy does pledge organizers and volunteers to enforce it,
if need be. So if we decide to adopt one, all "staff" should explicity
state that they have read and accepted the policy.
It must also be sent out to presenters and attendees.

On 14 January 2014 20:45, Andrew Chadwick  wrote:
> It was mentioned a while back [0]. I'm distinctly at the edge of
> organization myself, but I want to see LGM2014 publish a good one
> before I attend.
>
> Do the PSF have a sample one? If not, simplest to start with the CC0
> one on GeekFeminism[1] suitably tailored, just like PyCon. A published
> incident handling procedure like [2] would be a good idea too.
>
> "PyCon’s Code of Conduct is structured after one created by The
> Ada Initiative and others, available under the Creative Commons Zero
> license at [...][1]." [3]
>
> And add it to the Ada Initiative's list[4] when it's done to get the word out 
> ☺
>
> [0] http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/create/2012-December/004500.html
> [1] http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Conference_anti-harassment/Policy
> [2] https://us.pycon.org/2013/about/code-of-conduct/harassment-incidents/
> [3] 
> http://pyfound.blogspot.co.uk/2012/12/psf-moves-to-require-code-of-conduct.html
> [4] http://adainitiative.org/what-we-do/conference-policies/
>
> On 14 January 2014 19:15, Louis Desjardins  wrote:
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I am asked by PSF if we have a Code of Conduct?
>>
>> I am sure that at some point in time that question was raised among us but I
>> can’t recall if we reached a consensus and if so where would that text be?
>>
>> PSF could consider funding us but we’d need a published Code of Conduct.
>>
>> A quick follow-up will be appreciated.
>>
>> Thanks!
>>
>> Louis
>>
>> ___
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>>
>
>
>
> --
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Re: [CREATE] Code of Conduct

[Gregory Pittman]

On 01/14/2014 03:20 PM, Jon Nordby wrote:
> I support having a code of conduct. I had a read through the one at
> http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Conference_anti-harassment/Policy
> and found it to be very sane, both the statement and the practical
> guideline on how organization should deal with matters.
> 
> Having a policy does pledge organizers and volunteers to enforce it,
> if need be. So if we decide to adopt one, all "staff" should explicity
> state that they have read and accepted the policy.
> It must also be sent out to presenters and attendees.
> 

Personally, I would rather see language that talks of "respect" (a
positive term) rather than "anti-harrassment" (a negative term).

Thus, we can be on the lookout for behavior or materials as far as how
they respect others, perhaps making some positive suggestions, as
opposed to searching for harrassment as if it were some kind of
witch-hunt (meaning no disrespect to witches of course).

Greg

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Re: [CREATE] Code of Conduct

[Andrew Chadwick]

Just to clarify, I also support having a code of conduct, as one who
is able to attend self-funded and probably wouldn't benefit directly
from it. Publishing one sends out one more message that the conference
is open to everyone to have fun at.

Python Software Foundation make publishing a code a requirement for
their sponsorship, and good for them. The linked one is suitably
minimalistic and practical and much is made optional: just delete
sections as appropriate. Interestingly it has emerging adoption in
areas outside regular tech conferences too.

Codes of conduct are mostly just "don't be obnoxious; listen, respect,
learn" written out in long form with some specifics about what's not
to be tolerated. Granted, they say what shouldn't need to be said and
are always written in the hope they don't have to be invoked; but they
also publicly state that the organizers care about what happens to
people at the conference and how welcome they feel.

What needs to be done to move this forwards speedily? My suggestion is
to take the GeekFeminism text and fit it to our needs, since the heavy
lifting has basically already been done. Having at it on github might
be a good plan.

-- 
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Re: [CREATE] Code of Conduct

[Michael Natterer]

On Tue, 2014-01-14 at 14:15 -0500, Louis Desjardins wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> I am asked by PSF if we have a Code of Conduct?
> 
> I am sure that at some point in time that question was raised among us but
> I can’t recall if we reached a consensus and if so where would that text be?
> 
> PSF could consider funding us but we’d need a published Code of Conduct.

If they want to impose their rules in order to fund, then I'd suggest
not to take their money.

About a code of conduct, what about

"use your brain, failure to do so will get you kicked out after one
warning, or immediately for serious misbehavior"

If that's not enough we're pretty much doomed.

--Mitch


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Re: [CREATE] Code of Conduct

[Hin-Tak Leung]

Hmm, I rather think some of the geekfeminism content material is rather extreme 
and make me uncomfortable. 

The way I see these matters on equality and etc is this: does the paragraphs 
make sense if you replace every instance of the word "female" by "black 
person", "Chinese", "dwarf", "Obama" or "Geek", or "Your grandmother"? or 
another specific group of people? 

Granted, chinese isn't strictly speaking a 'minority', but you don't know how 
many 'slitty eye' jokes I have heard in my life. (Well, females aren't 
"minority" either... If you want to argue that attendences of females are rare, 
I can also say that attendences of chinese and blacks or "Obama" are rare too)

geeks are minority among the general population, too. It is worth remembering. 
Perhaps there should only be one guideline - treat others like how you would 
like to be treated. 
--
On Tue, Jan 14, 2014 22:01 GMT Gregory Pittman wrote:

>On 01/14/2014 03:20 PM, Jon Nordby wrote:
>> I support having a code of conduct. I had a read through the one at
>> http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Conference_anti-harassment/Policy
>> and found it to be very sane, both the statement and the practical
>> guideline on how organization should deal with matters.
>> 
>> Having a policy does pledge organizers and volunteers to enforce it,
>> if need be. So if we decide to adopt one, all "staff" should explicity
>> state that they have read and accepted the policy.
>> It must also be sent out to presenters and attendees.
>> 
>
>Personally, I would rather see language that talks of "respect" (a
>positive term) rather than "anti-harrassment" (a negative term).
>
>Thus, we can be on the lookout for behavior or materials as far as how
>they respect others, perhaps making some positive suggestions, as
>opposed to searching for harrassment as if it were some kind of
>witch-hunt (meaning no disrespect to witches of course).
>
>Greg
>
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Re: [CREATE] Code of Conduct

[Tobias Ellinghaus]

Am Dienstag, 14. Januar 2014, 22:40:51 schrieb Andrew Chadwick:

[...]

> Codes of conduct are mostly just "don't be obnoxious; listen, respect,
> learn" written out in long form with some specifics about what's not
> to be tolerated. Granted, they say what shouldn't need to be said and
> are always written in the hope they don't have to be invoked; but they
> also publicly state that the organizers care about what happens to
> people at the conference and how welcome they feel.

I don't know about you, but when I approach a group of people that have given 
themselves rules like that my first thought would be "OMFG, do I really want to 
get in touch with them? Terrible things must have happened there".

[...]

Tobias

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Re: [CREATE] Code of Conduct

[Dave Crossland]

RTA this time
>
> On 14 Jan 2014 16:09, "Tobias Ellinghaus"  wrote:
> >
> > Am Dienstag, 14. Januar 2014, 22:40:51 schrieb Andrew Chadwick:
> >
> > [...]
> >
> > > Codes of conduct are mostly just "don't be obnoxious; listen, respect,
> > > learn" written out in long form with some specifics about what's not
> > > to be tolerated. Granted, they say what shouldn't need to be said and
> > > are always written in the hope they don't have to be invoked; but they
> > > also publicly state that the organizers care about what happens to
> > > people at the conference and how welcome they feel.
> >
> > I don't know about you, but when I approach a group of people that have
given
> > themselves rules like that my first thought would be "OMFG, do I really
want to
> > get in touch with them? Terrible things must have happened there".

That attitude is a fine example of white male privilege.

I'm a white male, and I want to welcome people who are not like me. If they
want a coc, we should give them one. If PSF wants one to give us money to
find their travel to join us, all the better.

I think a coc also helps mitigate the tyranny of structurelessness.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Tyranny_of_Structurelessness
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Re: [CREATE] Code of Conduct

[Dave Crossland]

On 14 Jan 2014 15:51, "Hin-Tak Leung"  wrote:
>
>
> Hmm, I rather think some of the geekfeminism content material is rather
extreme and make me uncomfortable.

The whole site has a lot of stuff. Are you referring specifically to the
coc template that is written to have bits you don't want elided?

> The way I see these matters on equality and etc is this: does the
paragraphs make sense if you replace every instance of the word "female" by
"black person", "Chinese", "dwarf", "Obama" or "Geek", or "Your
grandmother"? or another specific group of people?
>
> Granted, chinese isn't strictly speaking a 'minority', but you don't know
how many 'slitty eye' jokes I have heard in my life. (Well, females aren't
"minority" either... If you want to argue that attendences of females are
rare, I can also say that attendences of chinese and blacks or "Obama" are
rare too)
>
> geeks are minority among the general population, too. It is worth
remembering. Perhaps there should only be one guideline - treat others like
how you would like to be treated.
> --
> On Tue, Jan 14, 2014 22:01 GMT Gregory Pittman wrote:
>
> >On 01/14/2014 03:20 PM, Jon Nordby wrote:
> >> I support having a code of conduct. I had a read through the one at
> >> http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Conference_anti-harassment/Policy
> >> and found it to be very sane, both the statement and the practical
> >> guideline on how organization should deal with matters.
> >>
> >> Having a policy does pledge organizers and volunteers to enforce it,
> >> if need be. So if we decide to adopt one, all "staff" should explicity
> >> state that they have read and accepted the policy.
> >> It must also be sent out to presenters and attendees.
> >>
> >
> >Personally, I would rather see language that talks of "respect" (a
> >positive term) rather than "anti-harrassment" (a negative term).
> >
> >Thus, we can be on the lookout for behavior or materials as far as how
> >they respect others, perhaps making some positive suggestions, as
> >opposed to searching for harrassment as if it were some kind of
> >witch-hunt (meaning no disrespect to witches of course).
> >
> >Greg
> >
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Re: [CREATE] Code of Conduct

[Susan Spencer]

Can LGM adopt the PSF policy
as a temporary measure?
http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Conference_anti-harassment/Policy

Then at LGM we can hold a BOF meeting
where results are posted
with additional paper for comments.

Results will be put forward to an
all-hands vote with amendments
welcomed from the floor.

- Susan
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Re: [CREATE] Code of Conduct

[Hin-Tak Leung]

I just clicked on the geekfeminism url in the previous e-mail. I apologize
for making quick judgements, but OTOH, if a "code of conduct" statement
is indeed made, and a newcomer is in the position of evaluating whether to
come to a conference based on that statement, that's probably the same amount
of time it would take to persuade/dissuade him/her to come.

Human virtues are good, I am all for fairness and equality, and patriotism, etc.
So my thoughts are simple: does it make sense if you replace the word 'female'
with 'black person', 'Chinese', 'dwarfs', 'your grandmother', or 'Obama'?
At what point does 'fighting for quality' becomes an excuse for demanding
special treatments?

The love of one's country is also a very good virtue, but when you hear news
(this is a real event which happened as recent as just over a year ago) - of a
Chinese smashing the car windows and beating another Chinese passer-by
to the point of comma and possible brain-damage, just for being behind
the wheel of a *Japanese brand* car. The love of animals is a good virtue,
but you also hear people getting hurt and going to hospitals from car bombs,
for working in research places which keep some animals for experiments.

As one other commenter said, the statement is also a reflection of the
atmosphere expected, etc. I'd rather suggest one stay away from special
treatments, over-compensations, and sexual/racial/political extremisms.

You can't pull the 'white male privilege' card on me :-).


On Wed, 15/1/14, Dave Crossland  wrote:

 On 14 Jan 2014 15:51, "Hin-Tak Leung" 
 wrote:
 
 > Hmm, I rather think some of the geekfeminism content
 material is rather extreme and make me uncomfortable.
 
 
 The whole site has a lot of stuff. Are you
 referring specifically to the coc template that is written
 to have bits you don't want elided?
 
 
 > The way I see these matters on equality
 and etc is this: does the paragraphs make sense if you
 replace every instance of the word "female" by
 "black person", "Chinese",
 "dwarf", "Obama" or "Geek", or
 "Your grandmother"? or another specific group of
 people?
 
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Re: [CREATE] Code of Conduct

[Gregory Pittman]

On 01/14/2014 09:14 PM, Susan Spencer wrote:


Can LGM adopt the PSF policy
as a temporary measure?
http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Conference_anti-harassment/Policy
Then at LGM we can hold a BOF meeting
where results are posted
with additional paper for comments.

Results will be put forward to an
all-hands vote with amendments
welcomed from the floor.



What I see on this page is a not A policy, but a number of versions of 
policies, some short some verbose. We can hardly adopt all these versions.


How about:

"The Libre Graphics Meeting was established as and continues to be a 
conference open to all those who share an interest in FOSS 
graphics-related software. A facet of this openness is that we expect 
attendees and especially presenters to show the utmost respect for all 
others who attend and to avoid defamatory or derogatory remarks or 
actions against others strictly related to their views, their lifestyle 
choices, where they are from, or who they are.


The organizers invite anyone to inform the LGM organizers of any such 
disrespectful language or behavior they have experienced or witnessed, 
so that appropriate steps can be taken."


Please edit as desired.

Greg
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Re: [CREATE] Code of Conduct

[Dave Crossland]

On 14 Jan 2014 15:39, "Michael Natterer"  wrote:
>
> On Tue, 2014-01-14 at 14:15 -0500, Louis Desjardins wrote:
> > Hi all,
> >
> > I am asked by PSF if we have a Code of Conduct?
> >
> > I am sure that at some point in time that question was raised among us
but
> > I can’t recall if we reached a consensus and if so where would that
text be?
> >
> > PSF could consider funding us but we’d need a published Code of Conduct.
>
> If they want to impose their rules in order to fund, then I'd suggest
> not to take their money.
>
> About a code of conduct, what about
>
> "use your brain, failure to do so will get you kicked out after one
> warning, or immediately for serious misbehavior"
>
> If that's not enough we're pretty much doomed.

I suggest we ask the people who are minorities at the event if it or any
other proposal is enough. You and I, as the white male majority, can't tell.

For dudes claiming this is unneccessary, do you know what it's like to have
a public profile online, like you and I do, but as a female?

" In 2006, researchers from the University of Maryland set up a bunch of
fake online accounts and then dispatched them into chat rooms. Accounts
with feminine usernames incurred an average of 100 sexually explicit or
threatening messages a day. Masculine names received 3.7."

http://www.psmag.com/navigation/health-and-behavior/women-arent-welcome-internet-72170/

> --Mitch
>
>
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Re: [CREATE] Code of Conduct

[Susan Spencer]

It seems this discussion is taking place
around three definition sets of heinous behaviors.

The 1st set contains injustices against groups
as described by Hin-tak  (Hi Hin-tak! :D)

The 2nd set of heinous behaviors is contained
within the 1st set. It is the set of
injustices committed against women.

The 3rd set is within the 2nd, and is the set of injustices
which are committed against women
in the working place and in professional settings.

LGM is a professional setting.
Open source conferences historically have been places
where women are ostracized, insulted
and humiliated. Many, many women have gone
to open source conferences only to find that
they have wasted their time, money and effort.
These conferences should be events where their
career gains momentum, not where their career
is ruined.

The only reason that LGM is being asked
to have a CoC is to help erradicate behaviors
which have been shoving women to the back of the
professional line.

There are always people who constantly must
put others down in order to feel good about themselves.
A Code of Conduct is usually implemented to indicate that
insults and injuries should be dispensed *equally* against
women and men, such that there isn't a larger proportion
being aimed at women's ability to program, their intelligence,
their personalities, their , and that
lewd wisecracks aren't made which by definition
render women excluded from the group who laugh
at the 'joke'.

So when someone posts on this thread, it would
help me to know which set of heinous behaviors they
are addressing.

PSF is clearly concerned about the third smallest set,
which is the most critical in affecting the number
of women in the open source community.

LGM attendees have always followed the rules of polite society
so well that there has been no need to mention the rules.
But LGM is growing...

We can't eradicate stupid ridiculous behavior,
but we can at least join the effort to keep it from sweeping
the XXs out of the IT gene pool.


Solidarność,

Susan
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Re: [CREATE] Code of Conduct

[ale rimoldi]

hi

i'm comfortable with a code of conduct...

> "The Libre Graphics Meeting was established as and continues to be a 
> conference open to all those who share an interest in FOSS 
> graphics-related software. A facet of this openness is that we expect 
> attendees and especially presenters to show the utmost respect for
> all others who attend and to avoid defamatory or derogatory remarks
> or actions against others strictly related to their views, their
> lifestyle choices, where they are from, or who they are.
> 
> The organizers invite anyone to inform the LGM organizers of any such 
> disrespectful language or behavior they have experienced or
> witnessed, so that appropriate steps can be taken."
> 
> Please edit as desired.

... but -- as other people also said -- i'd prefer to see only positive
points in there.

this is, imo, the first step in producing a friendly atmosphere.

as an example, in the draft above, i would remove -- or replace -- the
part after "avoid".


so: tell the people how you expect them to behave, not how they should
not behave.

ciao
a.l.e
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Re: [CREATE] Code of Conduct

[Femke Snelting]

On 15/01/14 01:47, Dave Crossland wrote:

RTA this time
 >
 > On 14 Jan 2014 16:09, "Tobias Ellinghaus" mailto:h...@gmx.de>> 
wrote:
 > >
 > > Am Dienstag, 14. Januar 2014, 22:40:51 schrieb Andrew Chadwick:
 > >
 > > [...]
 > >
 > > > Codes of conduct are mostly just "don't be obnoxious; listen, respect,
 > > > learn" written out in long form with some specifics about what's not
 > > > to be tolerated. Granted, they say what shouldn't need to be said and
 > > > are always written in the hope they don't have to be invoked; but they
 > > > also publicly state that the organizers care about what happens to
 > > > people at the conference and how welcome they feel.
 > >
 > > I don't know about you, but when I approach a group of people that have 
given
 > > themselves rules like that my first thought would be "OMFG, do I really 
want to
 > > get in touch with them? Terrible things must have happened there".

That attitude is a fine example of white male privilege.

I'm a white male, and I want to welcome people who are not like me. If they 
want a coc, we should give them one. If PSF wants one to give us money to find 
their travel to join us, all the better.

I think a coc also helps mitigate the tyranny of structurelessness.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Tyranny_of_Structurelessness


You saved the day Dave -- thank you for bringing up that reference

The short of it: I am for adopting the Python Code of conduct as-is (which is 
being developed and publicly discussed here by the way 
https://github.com/python/pycon-code-of-conduct ) and pick at the details of 
it's phrasing later.

It would be great if the Python foundation would decide to support LGM again 
and I am not afraid a Code of conduct will scare away tight pants, discussions 
around it, or anyone for that matter.

A publicly available statement about "how the organizers care about what happens to 
people at the conference and how welcome they feel" might bring some perspective to 
the tyranny of cluelessness that shows from this thread.


F
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Re: [CREATE] Code of Conduct

[S.Kemter]

Hi,

You are aware that this brings trouble to me? Its not that simple we make
an Code of Conduct and thats just our business. The university needs to
agree to it and they will take that further away to the Ministery of
Culture. Why because they have to be sure it breaks not german or/and
saxonian laws. You open Pandoras Box here, well there are woman rights and
minority rights touched so the "Gleichstellungsbeauftragte" has also to
give his ok and there are some others with strange titles also.


Before you discuss any CoC for Leipzig, do me a favor go to the violations
list and try to find german events on it.  (except CCC that an topic of its
own)


br gnokii


2014/1/15 Femke Snelting 

> On 15/01/14 01:47, Dave Crossland wrote:
>
>> RTA this time
>>
>>  >
>>  > On 14 Jan 2014 16:09, "Tobias Ellinghaus" > h...@gmx.de>> wrote:
>>  > >
>>  > > Am Dienstag, 14. Januar 2014, 22:40:51 schrieb Andrew Chadwick:
>>  > >
>>  > > [...]
>>  > >
>>  > > > Codes of conduct are mostly just "don't be obnoxious; listen,
>> respect,
>>  > > > learn" written out in long form with some specifics about what's
>> not
>>  > > > to be tolerated. Granted, they say what shouldn't need to be said
>> and
>>  > > > are always written in the hope they don't have to be invoked; but
>> they
>>  > > > also publicly state that the organizers care about what happens to
>>  > > > people at the conference and how welcome they feel.
>>  > >
>>  > > I don't know about you, but when I approach a group of people that
>> have given
>>  > > themselves rules like that my first thought would be "OMFG, do I
>> really want to
>>  > > get in touch with them? Terrible things must have happened there".
>>
>> That attitude is a fine example of white male privilege.
>>
>> I'm a white male, and I want to welcome people who are not like me. If
>> they want a coc, we should give them one. If PSF wants one to give us money
>> to find their travel to join us, all the better.
>>
>> I think a coc also helps mitigate the tyranny of structurelessness.
>>
>> http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Tyranny_of_Structurelessness
>>
>
> You saved the day Dave -- thank you for bringing up that reference
>
> The short of it: I am for adopting the Python Code of conduct as-is (which
> is being developed and publicly discussed here by the way
> https://github.com/python/pycon-code-of-conduct ) and pick at the details
> of it's phrasing later.
>
> It would be great if the Python foundation would decide to support LGM
> again and I am not afraid a Code of conduct will scare away tight pants,
> discussions around it, or anyone for that matter.
>
> A publicly available statement about "how the organizers care about what
> happens to people at the conference and how welcome they feel" might bring
> some perspective to the tyranny of cluelessness that shows from this thread.
>
>
>
> F
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Re: [CREATE] Code of Conduct

[ku.b-mal]

Am 15.01.2014 01:47, schrieb Dave Crossland:


RTA this time
>
> On 14 Jan 2014 16:09, "Tobias Ellinghaus" > wrote:




...

> > I don't know about you, but when I approach a group of people that 
have given
> > themselves rules like that my first thought would be "OMFG, do I 
really want to

> > get in touch with them? Terrible things must have happened there".

That attitude is a fine example of white male privilege.



Dave,
you base this label on sex and color. That is a example of apartheid and 
sexual discrimination.


Tobias,
I am completely on your side, when it comes to your right to express 
your thoughts and feelings including in this thread and regardless of 
sex or color.



kind regards
Kai-Uwe*
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Re: [CREATE] Code of Conduct

[Louis Desjardins]

2014/1/15 Femke Snelting 

> On 15/01/14 01:47, Dave Crossland wrote:
>
>> RTA this time
>>
>>  >
>>  > On 14 Jan 2014 16:09, "Tobias Ellinghaus" > h...@gmx.de>> wrote:
>>  > >
>>  > > Am Dienstag, 14. Januar 2014, 22:40:51 schrieb Andrew Chadwick:
>>  > >
>>  > > [...]
>>  > >
>>  > > > Codes of conduct are mostly just "don't be obnoxious; listen,
>> respect,
>>  > > > learn" written out in long form with some specifics about what's
>> not
>>  > > > to be tolerated. Granted, they say what shouldn't need to be said
>> and
>>  > > > are always written in the hope they don't have to be invoked; but
>> they
>>  > > > also publicly state that the organizers care about what happens to
>>  > > > people at the conference and how welcome they feel.
>>  > >
>>  > > I don't know about you, but when I approach a group of people that
>> have given
>>  > > themselves rules like that my first thought would be "OMFG, do I
>> really want to
>>  > > get in touch with them? Terrible things must have happened there".
>>
>> That attitude is a fine example of white male privilege.
>>
>> I'm a white male, and I want to welcome people who are not like me. If
>> they want a coc, we should give them one. If PSF wants one to give us money
>> to find their travel to join us, all the better.
>>
>> I think a coc also helps mitigate the tyranny of structurelessness.
>>
>> http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Tyranny_of_Structurelessness
>>
>
> You saved the day Dave -- thank you for bringing up that reference
>
> The short of it: I am for adopting the Python Code of conduct as-is (which
> is being developed and publicly discussed here by the way
> https://github.com/python/pycon-code-of-conduct ) and pick at the details
> of it's phrasing later.
>

In short, I fully agree.

LGM so far has been conducted with an implicit code of conduct and now we
see the opportunity to have that code being explicit. Not only do I think
it can do no harm, on the opposite I think it is a big plus. Things that go
without saying go equally well when we voice them. And if not, then it
means it’s time to voice them. Not to forget mentionning that the work is
already done by others with whom we share the same views. People organising
PyCon have worked hard to put this together in a simple, concise and clear
manner.

After reading the PSF CoC, I too believe that there is nothing there to
scare anyone — unless of course those who would intentionaly want to
digress such rules.

Due to my work schedule I won’t be able to attend the IRC meeting this
afternoon. You have my vote in favor of adopting the PSF CoC as is. Let’s
put a slot in the LGM program for discussing this further if we’d like to
modify the phrasing to better fit our specific needs (I can only think for
instance at the fact we would not reimburse entry fees as LGM is free to
attend), if at all needed. I would support a positive wording but sometimes
it’s difficult not to mention things that we would not accept. However I
know we *do* have some artists writers in this community that could
certainly please us with a wording of their own. But this would be
discussed later on.

Also, when some questions relate to me, I am always avalaible through
public or private mail. If you can’t reach me, it’s because you didn’t try
to!

One very good news is Google has accepted to be with us again this year and
that is on top of what Mario has been discussing about GSoC students, so
it’s a big plus! One thing about GSoC sponsorship for students: I would
suggest to Carol that while a $500 limit per student is ok to draw the
administrative line somewhere, we could still have the possibility to make
that sponsorship flow from one student who needs less than $500 to another
one who’d need more. Whithin Europe, arriving to Leipzig will very likely
cost less (sometimes much less) than $500. From anywhere else, the cost
will be higher (sometimes much higher). Having the possibility to use up
what’s left from one student to help another one will definitely help get
more people at no additionnal cost than what was budgetized.

While I am at writing this email, sorry not to make it another thread but I
would like that we add on the LGM website a Contact page so people know
right away who’s in charge of what and who to contact and how when they
need to. This is not something that needs to be discussed. It only needs to
be done!

Inspiration can be found here:
http://libregraphicsmeeting.org/2012/contact/

Oh... back to the original thread... once the decision is made, we’re going
to need to post our CoC on the website asap so I can direct PSF people to
it for all to see.

In order to prevent elegantly any legal issues that could arise in any
jurisdiction, I would suggest we add a very common sentence in legal texts
that would simply state (my wording is a pure translation from French so
please adapt it so it’s proper English): "If any of the forementioned rules
violates any law in the hosting country, this particular rule will 

Re: [CREATE] Code of Conduct

[Gregory Pittman]

On 01/15/2014 05:01 AM, Femke Snelting wrote:
> 
> The short of it: I am for adopting the Python Code of conduct as-is
> (which is being developed and publicly discussed here by the way
> https://github.com/python/pycon-code-of-conduct ) and pick at the
> details of it's phrasing later.
> 

The Short Version of their code seems close. I would leave out "Do not
insult or put down other attendees." As we know, we have a multiplicity
of languages at LGM, and while English is the dominant official language
there is variability in fluency in the audience. There are odd senses of
humor and some with "thin skins" sometimes, so offense can be taken as a
mistake or misunderstanding.

We're not in a position to refund (or not refund) the conference fee for
a free conference. The very idea of expelling someone from LGM is
problematic and creates its own issues.

I think we can try to be professional, kind, and helpful, even as we
convey to someone how their actions may have been inappropriate. Maybe
about as close to capital punishment as we might go would be to get
someone to formally apologize to the person offended or the group as a
whole.

So, trimmed down a bit, I think this could be a good working COC. Let's
stop short of trying to be the police or lawyers.

Greg
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Re: [CREATE] Code of Conduct

[Dave Crossland]

Hi!


On 15 January 2014 04:27, ku.b-mal  wrote:

>  Am 15.01.2014 01:47, schrieb Dave Crossland:
>
> RTA this time
> >
> > On 14 Jan 2014 16:09, "Tobias Ellinghaus"  wrote:
>
>
> ...
>
>
>  > > I don't know about you, but when I approach a group of people that
> have given
> > > themselves rules like that my first thought would be "OMFG, do I
> really want to
> > > get in touch with them? Terrible things must have happened there".
>
> That attitude is a fine example of white male privilege.
>
>
> Dave,
> you base this label on sex and color. That is a example of apartheid and
> sexual discrimination.
>

I'm happy to retract my statement, and say simply:

That attitude is a fine example of privilege.

I apologies if stating that I see the power inherent in my Tobias' race and
gender was offensive for anyone.

 Tobias,
> I am completely on your side, when it comes to your right to express your
> thoughts and feelings including in this thread and regardless of sex or
> color.
>

So am I :)

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Re: [CREATE] Code of Conduct

[Dave Crossland]

Hi!

On 15 January 2014 04:05, S.Kemter  wrote:

> You are aware that this brings trouble to me?
>

I for one am completely ignorant of the rules around making a CoC at a
German university under Saxon law, so I'm sorry that this involves a lot of
extra work for you. I guess you can calculate the value of the effort
against the (lack of) sponsorship funding for LGM, and the cash value of
the PSF money.



> Its not that simple we make an Code of Conduct and thats just our
> business. The university needs to agree to it and they will take that
> further away to the Ministery of Culture. Why because they have to be sure
> it breaks not german or/and saxonian laws. You open Pandoras Box here, well
> there are woman rights and minority rights touched so the
> "Gleichstellungsbeauftragte" has also to give his ok and there are some
> others with strange titles also.
>

All sounds worthy to me :)


> Before you discuss any CoC for Leipzig, do me a favor go to the violations
> list and try to find german events on it.  (except CCC that an topic of its
> own)
>

Link to list? :)

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Re: [CREATE] Code of Conduct

[S.Kemter]

Hi,

Well its not about work that's the easy part, thats just a mail. The
problem is another one, we will not have an ok before LGM. If you consider
how much trouble I already had for just extending the opening time and that
it took 2 months to get it. Its not simple here the key close when you are
done, there is a security guard and thats extra work for him and on the end
of the month that will be end up in a higher invoice, there immediately
pops up the question who pays it, its not simple that I can say ok we will
pay it cross paying governmental institutions is so damn complex, you will
try that only once and never again. The decision of the opening time was
made from the chancellor of the university, so highest authority ;)

What we could do is simple to invite the "Gleichstellungsbeauftragten" I
dont know how to translate that titel and if Equality Ombudsman is right
for it to watch over us and we can surly ask him to help us for formulating
an CoC for later events. I think nobody of us would be that firm as
someone, who does nothing else then handle exactly what some here think an
CoC would solve.


http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/index.php?title=Timeline_of_incidents

br gnokii



2014/1/15 Dave Crossland 

>
> Hi!
>
> On 15 January 2014 04:05, S.Kemter  wrote:
>
>> You are aware that this brings trouble to me?
>>
>
> I for one am completely ignorant of the rules around making a CoC at a
> German university under Saxon law, so I'm sorry that this involves a lot of
> extra work for you. I guess you can calculate the value of the effort
> against the (lack of) sponsorship funding for LGM, and the cash value of
> the PSF money.
>





> Its not that simple we make an Code of Conduct and thats just our
> business. The university needs to agree to it and they will take that
> further away to the Ministery of Culture. Why because they have to be sure
> it breaks not german or/and saxonian laws. You open Pandoras Box here, well
> there are woman rights and minority rights touched so the
> "Gleichstellungsbeauftragte" has also to give his ok and there are some
> others with strange titles also.
>

All sounds worthy to me :)


> Before you discuss any CoC for Leipzig, do me a favor go to the violations
> list and try to find german events on it.  (except CCC that an topic of its
> own)
>

> Link to list? :)
>
> --
> Cheers
> Dave
>



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Re: [CREATE] Code of Conduct

[Gregory Pittman]

On 01/15/2014 07:05 AM, S.Kemter wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> You are aware that this brings trouble to me? Its not that simple we make
> an Code of Conduct and thats just our business. The university needs to
> agree to it and they will take that further away to the Ministery of
> Culture. Why because they have to be sure it breaks not german or/and
> saxonian laws. You open Pandoras Box here, well there are woman rights and
> minority rights touched so the "Gleichstellungsbeauftragte" has also to
> give his ok and there are some others with strange titles also.
> 

This just sounds like you may need to enlist help, rather than try to
avoid the issue.

Having said that, maybe there is some sort of code or rule that already
exists at Universität Leipzig which talks about behavior in
university-sponsored or authorized events...? If so, it may be that we
don't really need to create something new.

Greg

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Re: [CREATE] Code of Conduct

[Gregory Pittman]

On 01/15/2014 12:04 PM, S.Kemter wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> Well its not about work that's the easy part, thats just a mail. The
> problem is another one, we will not have an ok before LGM. If you consider
> how much trouble I already had for just extending the opening time and that
> it took 2 months to get it. Its not simple here the key close when you are
> done, there is a security guard and thats extra work for him and on the end
> of the month that will be end up in a higher invoice, there immediately
> pops up the question who pays it, its not simple that I can say ok we will
> pay it cross paying governmental institutions is so damn complex, you will
> try that only once and never again. The decision of the opening time was
> made from the chancellor of the university, so highest authority ;)
> 
> What we could do is simple to invite the "Gleichstellungsbeauftragten" I
> dont know how to translate that titel and if Equality Ombudsman is right
> for it to watch over us and we can surly ask him to help us for formulating
> an CoC for later events. I think nobody of us would be that firm as
> someone, who does nothing else then handle exactly what some here think an
> CoC would solve.
> 

Frankly, I think I would trust the Gleichstellungsbeauftragten more than
this geek feminism site. I don't mean this in a derogatory way, but only
to acknowledge the efforts Germany has made to codify fairness.

We certainly do not want to create a major stumbling block for LGM over
this issue.

Greg

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Re: [CREATE] Code of Conduct

[Michael Natterer]

On Tue, 2014-01-14 at 20:11 -0800, Dave Crossland wrote:
> On 14 Jan 2014 15:39, "Michael Natterer"  wrote:
> >
> > On Tue, 2014-01-14 at 14:15 -0500, Louis Desjardins wrote:
> > > Hi all,
> > >
> > > I am asked by PSF if we have a Code of Conduct?
> > >
> > > I am sure that at some point in time that question was raised among us
> but
> > > I can’t recall if we reached a consensus and if so where would that
> text be?
> > >
> > > PSF could consider funding us but we’d need a published Code of Conduct.
> >
> > If they want to impose their rules in order to fund, then I'd suggest
> > not to take their money.
> >
> > About a code of conduct, what about
> >
> > "use your brain, failure to do so will get you kicked out after one
> > warning, or immediately for serious misbehavior"
> >
> > If that's not enough we're pretty much doomed.
> 
> I suggest we ask the people who are minorities at the event if it or any
> other proposal is enough. You and I, as the white male majority, can't tell.
> 
> For dudes claiming this is unneccessary, do you know what it's like to have
> a public profile online, like you and I do, but as a female?
> 
> " In 2006, researchers from the University of Maryland set up a bunch of
> fake online accounts and then dispatched them into chat rooms. Accounts
> with feminine usernames incurred an average of 100 sexually explicit or
> threatening messages a day. Masculine names received 3.7."
> 
> http://www.psmag.com/navigation/health-and-behavior/women-arent-welcome-internet-72170/

I am aware that sadly all of that is very true, and there is
little doubt that larger conferences need a CoC.

What I'm uncomfortable with is the idea of "we have to get
a CoC in order to get funding", because that should really
not be the motivation for having one. Also, I think that
LGM doesn't actually need a CoC, it has the atmosphere of
a family meeting, not of a major event that involves a
degree of anonymity.

That said, I am not opposed to a CoC. All I'm saying is that
I feel very comfortable to be at an event where nothing
weird ever happened and where I'm not afraid that anything
will happen; therefore the idea of getting a CoC feels a bit
like trying to preemtively avoid criticism from whatever
fraction of political correctness.

just my 2 ct.

Regards,
--Mitch


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Re: [CREATE] Code of Conduct

[Dave Crossland]

Hi

On 15 Jan 2014 10:50, "Michael Natterer"  wrote:
>
> On Tue, 2014-01-14 at 20:11 -0800, Dave Crossland wrote:
> > On 14 Jan 2014 15:39, "Michael Natterer"  wrote:
> > >
> > > On Tue, 2014-01-14 at 14:15 -0500, Louis Desjardins wrote:
> > > > Hi all,
> > > >
> > > > I am asked by PSF if we have a Code of Conduct?
> > > >
> > > > I am sure that at some point in time that question was raised among
us
> > but
> > > > I can’t recall if we reached a consensus and if so where would that
> > text be?
> > > >
> > > > PSF could consider funding us but we’d need a published Code of
Conduct.
> > >
> > > If they want to impose their rules in order to fund, then I'd suggest
> > > not to take their money.
> > >
> > > About a code of conduct, what about
> > >
> > > "use your brain, failure to do so will get you kicked out after one
> > > warning, or immediately for serious misbehavior"
> > >
> > > If that's not enough we're pretty much doomed.
> >
> > I suggest we ask the people who are minorities at the event if it or any
> > other proposal is enough. You and I, as the white male majority, can't
tell.
> >
> > For dudes claiming this is unneccessary, do you know what it's like to
have
> > a public profile online, like you and I do, but as a female?
> >
> > " In 2006, researchers from the University of Maryland set up a bunch of
> > fake online accounts and then dispatched them into chat rooms. Accounts
> > with feminine usernames incurred an average of 100 sexually explicit or
> > threatening messages a day. Masculine names received 3.7."
> >
> >
http://www.psmag.com/navigation/health-and-behavior/women-arent-welcome-internet-72170/
>
> I am aware that sadly all of that is very true, and there is
> little doubt that larger conferences need a CoC.
>
> What I'm uncomfortable with is the idea of "we have to get
> a CoC in order to get funding", because that should really
> not be the motivation for having one.

I'm curious why you think cash isn't a good motivation for formality :)

You seen to imply that only conference size determines the need for a coc.
Are there any other criteria you feel are relevant?

Minorities are requesting a coc independently if the PSF Funding, on this
thread. That seems like the primary determinant of necessity to me, and
cash is a very good secondary reason.

> Also, I think that
> LGM doesn't actually need a CoC, it has the atmosphere of
> a family meeting,

...for you and me. We are insiders, having been to almost all of these
events, and if you read the Tyranny of Structurelessness, it's clear you
and I are parts of overlapping elites - as defined in that essay.

>not of a major event

It's a pretty major event in my eyes, corporate sponsors, hundreds of
people, travel expenses paid, held around the world, many people there
professionally on company time... I'm curious what would make it a major
event in your eyes :)

> that [does not] involves a
> degree of anonymity.

...for you and me. If you are attending this year for the first time,
having only participated in local events before, perhaps only those in
Germanic, and interacting online only in Germanic forums, surely you will
have a large degree of anonymity. Each year there is and will be a local
constituency like that.

> That said, I am not opposed to a CoC. All I'm saying is that
> I feel very comfortable to be at an event where nothing
> weird ever happened

... to you or me. I definitely know people who were uncomfortable at
previous lgms.

> and where I'm not afraid that anything
> will happen

...to you or me.

> therefore the idea of getting a CoC feels a bit
> like trying to preemtively avoid criticism from whatever
> fraction of political correctness.

That you frame it as preemptive, and consider how it feels to us
old-timers,  is another fine example of privilege.

> just my 2 ct.

Thanks for continuing the discussions :)

> Regards,
> --Mitch
>
>
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Re: [CREATE] Code of Conduct

[Jon Nordby]

Several has raised the concern that the geekfeminism-based is too
negative and/or agressive by being focused on what wrong behavior is.
Here are two alternative that are instead based on the positive values
one expect people to hold:
http://www.kde.org/code-of-conduct/
http://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
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Re: [CREATE] Code of Conduct

[Louis Desjardins]

2014/1/15 Jon Nordby 

> Several has raised the concern that the geekfeminism-based is too
> negative and/or agressive by being focused on what wrong behavior is.
> Here are two alternative that are instead based on the positive values
> one expect people to hold:
> http://www.kde.org/code-of-conduct/
> http://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/


Both seem to me on target and would need only small edits.

Louis
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Re: [CREATE] Code of Conduct

[Chris Lilley]

Wednesday, January 15, 2014, 11:07:48 PM, Jon wrote:

> Several has raised the concern that the geekfeminism-based is too
> negative and/or agressive by being focused on what wrong behavior is.
> Here are two alternative that are instead based on the positive values
> one expect people to hold:
> http://www.kde.org/code-of-conduct/
> http://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/

The PSF one:  Open, Considerate, Respectful seems concise, clear, and
focuses on what to encourage rather than listing undesirable
behaviors.

It looks like a good model to adopt and it is CC0.

However, I'm also sensitive to the needs of the local organizers to
have such a policy added at the last minute and to pass review by
assorted levels of bureaucracy; with possible negatives of having the
policy refused, having some other policy mandated instead, or even of
having the hosting revoked due to a conflict with German or Saxon law.

It would have been different had this policy been in place when the
initial approach was made to Leipzig for conference hosting.

Since this policy is being added because we want to and consider it
just and merited, not at all to get some last minute extra funding
(right?) I would suggest discussing and proposing text continue, with
the aim of adding it to the *next* conference. That way, it becomes
part and parcel of the call for location.

-- 
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Re: [CREATE] Code of Conduct

[Susan Spencer]

I applaud the statements that the LGM CoC should be phrased in a positive
way.

But this is not about staying within comfort zones, its about protecting
people.
If anyone were comfortable with this subject matter then they would be very
odd indeed.

Many people in Alabama can't talk about race properly because it makes them
uncomfortable. They can only discuss it in the abstract, and circle around
it without coming to any accountability. These conversations are very
familiar to me.  On the surface it sounds reasonable, but what it means is
that should an issue occur then the community feels entitled to complain
about the issue because it makes them uncomfortable, not because something
bad has happened.

So please consider the practical nature of the CoC, and embrace a small bit
of 'uncomfortableness' because it may help someone in the future.
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Re: [CREATE] Code of Conduct

[Øyvind Kolås]

On Thu, Jan 16, 2014 at 4:09 AM, Susan Spencer  wrote:
> I applaud the statements that the LGM CoC should be phrased in a positive
> way.
>
> But this is not about staying within comfort zones, its about protecting
> people.
> If anyone were comfortable with this subject matter then they would be very
> odd indeed.
>
> So please consider the practical nature of the CoC, and embrace a small bit
> of 'uncomfortableness' because it may help someone in the future.

I expect everyone considering to attend a conference to read and
understand a code of conduct. To me, the hate-speech against humanity
CoC, is the same as showing a graphically explicit video of examples
of non-toleratable behavior at the start of the meeting (perhaps
daily); similar to a safety video on an airplane. The first time I
read this text; it caused be to be disgusted with a conference I had
enjoyed attending the year before - in the end I chose to attend and
express the reaction I had to the new humanity hostile impression the
conference now was tainted with.
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Re: [CREATE] Code of Conduct

[ale rimoldi]

hi jon,

thanks for researching and for the links!

> http://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/

i specially like the python one: short, to the point and throughout
expressed in positive terms.

for what i'm concerned, we can adopt it, just by replacing python by
LGM (and some more minor changes...) and then discuss at the LGM itself
what we can add to make it even more adapted to our meeting (as an
example by adding a "In case of any problems please get in touch
with ... or ... by ...").

ciao
a.l.e
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Re: [CREATE] Code of Conduct

[Susan Spencer]

This is a great code of conduct for *community at large*. (Thanks Jon!)
http://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/

And this is a great procedural implementaiton of a code of conduct, needed
for a *convention*.
https://us.pycon.org/2013/about/code-of-conduct/

They are two different things, they back each other up.
Both are necessary.

Sorry if it is uncomfortable, but it's certainly not hate speech.
A Code of Conduct is not a villainous bogeyman.
CoCs help keep people safe.

- Susan




On Thu, Jan 16, 2014 at 3:47 AM, ale rimoldi  wrote:

> hi jon,
>
> thanks for researching and for the links!
>
> > http://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
>
> i specially like the python one: short, to the point and throughout
> expressed in positive terms.
>
> for what i'm concerned, we can adopt it, just by replacing python by
> LGM (and some more minor changes...) and then discuss at the LGM itself
> what we can add to make it even more adapted to our meeting (as an
> example by adding a "In case of any problems please get in touch
> with ... or ... by ...").
>
> ciao
> a.l.e
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Re: [CREATE] Code of Conduct

[Nathan Willis]

On Wed, Jan 15, 2014 at 9:09 PM, Susan Spencer wrote:

>  On the surface it sounds reasonable, but what it means is that should an
> issue occur then the community feels entitled to complain about the issue
> because it makes them uncomfortable, not because something bad has happened.
>

I would only want to add that I think Susan has brought up an important
point. A code really has two purposes - to tell people what is expected,
and to tell people what to do in the event that they feel something bad is
happening when they're actually at the event.

It's perhaps more important that we think about how we'd want someone who
has a concern to bring it to the right people's attention while at LGM, and
make sure that we communicate that, than it is to craft the perfect
"expectations" description.

Everyone seems to, generally, agree on the positive experience that they
want LGM to be; perhaps we should decide how we'd want someone at the event
to bring their concerns to the right place, and that would keep things
moving forward.  Regardless of the wording of expectations, I might even
argue that having a process in place to hear and respond to conflict when
it occurs is the critical thing to get right.  If someone feels like they
know what to do when they feel uncomfortable, that's where it really
matters -- even if the wording ahead of time did not capture the particular
circumstances that they find themselves in at the moment. I, at least,
would want someone to feel comfortable approaching an LGM organizer with
their concerns, even if their concerns are something we did not think of at
all in advance.

I don't know what the university's policy and structure is on those issues,
but perhaps we could decide what the LGM team wants -- designate a person
or persons? Approach anyone on staff?

Nate
-- 
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nwil...@glyphography.com 
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Re: [CREATE] Code of Conduct

[Dave Crossland]

On 16 January 2014 11:33, Nathan Willis  wrote:

> I don't know what the university's policy and structure is on those
> issues, but perhaps we could decide what the LGM team wants -- designate a
> person or persons? Approach anyone on staff?


I understand from Sirko's emails that he has taken the feedback on board
that there should be a CoC this year, and the next step is for him to find
out the exact University requirements and get back to us. Not sure it
really matters what we want in the details at this point, the ball is in
our location sponsor's court.
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Re: [CREATE] Code of Conduct

[Gregory Pittman]

On 01/16/2014 04:47 AM, ale rimoldi wrote:
> hi jon,
> 
> thanks for researching and for the links!
> 
>> http://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
> 
> i specially like the python one: short, to the point and throughout
> expressed in positive terms.
> 
> for what i'm concerned, we can adopt it, just by replacing python by
> LGM (and some more minor changes...) and then discuss at the LGM itself
> what we can add to make it even more adapted to our meeting (as an
> example by adding a "In case of any problems please get in touch
> with ... or ... by ...").

I think this one is rather too verbose, and comes from the perspective
of Python development.

I like this one better:

https://github.com/python/pycon-code-of-conduct/blob/master/code_of_conduct.md

which I think is easier to adapt and make even shorter:

*** Proposed LGM COC 

Code of Conduct for Libre Graphics Meeting 2014

In the spirit of FOSS and the various projects, other groups, and
individuals who support and attend these annual meetings, we want to
continue to enjoy the congenial and considerate atmosphere important to
the exchange of ideas at LGM.

All communication should be appropriate for a professional audience
including people of many different backgrounds and cultures. Please be
considerate of the various sensitivities of all of those who attend.

Be kind to others. Do not insult or put down other attendees. Behave
professionally.

In case you observe or experience any such negative behavior, you are
encouraged to notify LGM organizers so that appropriate steps can be taken.

**

Greg

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Re: [CREATE] Code of Conduct

[Susan Spencer]

Lots of other organizations have gone through this process.
We're in good company.

Here's an article about Heroku's experience in adopting a Code of Conduct.
https://blog.heroku.com/archives/2013/12/11/code_of_conduct
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Re: [CREATE] Code of Conduct

[Christoph Schäfer]

Gesendet: Donnerstag, 16. Januar 2014 um 19:41 Uhr
Von: "Susan Spencer" 
An: "ale rimoldi" 
Cc: "Create ML" 
Betreff: Re: [CREATE] Code of Conduct

This is a great code of conduct for community at large. (Thanks Jon!)
http://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
 
And this is a great procedural implementaiton of a code of conduct, needed for 
a convention.
https://us.pycon.org/2013/about/code-of-conduct/[https://us.pycon.org/2013/about/code-of-conduct/]
 
They are two different things, they back each other up.
Both are necessary.
 
Sorry if it is uncomfortable, but it's certainly not hate speech.
A Code of Conduct is not a villainous bogeyman.
CoCs help keep people safe.
 
Hi,

I tried to stay away from this discussion, but Susan's latest remarks crossed a 
line.

Quotes/comments:

Q: "Both are necessary." 
C: Please explain why.

Q: "CoCs help keep people safe." 
C: Please explain how a CoC can help to keep people safe. Also define who's 
being threatened, who's the threat, what's the threat, and who's the safeguard 
against threats. If a threat can't be identified with a single person or a 
group, please define what else should be considered a threat and how a CoC can 
"help (to) keep people safe" other than law enforcement or civic common sense. 
Could it be that "safety" is increasingly becoming an alias for "suppressing 
views or certain forms of speach I don't like"? 

Please don't try to interpret what I wrote above in a US context, as I'm a 
European and rather centre-left-leaning. Freedom of expression is essential to 
my understanding of freedom and democracy, even if free expression may step on 
someone's toes. Free societies rely on open and sometimes heated public 
debates. Adding layers and layers of taboos doesn't protect anyone. It only 
helps to grow dissatisfaction and prejudices.

Christoph


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Re: [CREATE] Code of Conduct

[Susan Spencer]

Hi Christoph,

Well, I suppose that a Code of Conduct is meaningless without a plan to
implement it.  No need for chaos and confusion and miscommunication to
erupt if an incident occurs.  Having a process defined is always the most
efficient way to handle any potential occurrence (this goes for running a
convention as well as running a data center).  It's just logical and
practical.  It's like having an emergency exit plan posted for use in the
event of fire.  It's no good to figure out what to do, word it properly,
and post it once a fire breaks out. It's only good if it's posted and
everyone knows about it beforehand.  And it doesn't increase the risk of
fire. And no one believes that it implies that the building is a wreck and
a fire hazard, so no one is insulted or made uncomfortable by it.

The discussion about keeping people safe and providing a reasonable
assurance of a respectful environment has been all over the web for years.
 I can't possibly cover all the bases about this, especially to everyone's
satisfaction.  I'm sorry if this sounds like I'm avoiding the issue, but
truly there is so much content that I would be spending several days trying
to provide you a synopsis.  Perhaps, if you are interested, you could
investigate how other companies and organizations have implemented their
policies and post what you think everyone should know.
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Re: [CREATE] Code of Conduct

[Susan Spencer]

Just for kicks, read the Norwegian Cruise Line's Guest Code of Conduct
policy:
http://www.ncl.com/faq/guest-conduct-policy

They make parents repsonsible for their young adult's behavior! o.0
And we probably wouldn't confiscate skateboards, either.


On Fri, Jan 17, 2014 at 12:07 PM, Susan Spencer wrote:

> Hi Christoph,
>
> Well, I suppose that a Code of Conduct is meaningless without a plan to
> implement it.  No need for chaos and confusion and miscommunication to
> erupt if an incident occurs.  Having a process defined is always the most
> efficient way to handle any potential occurrence (this goes for running a
> convention as well as running a data center).  It's just logical and
> practical.  It's like having an emergency exit plan posted for use in the
> event of fire.  It's no good to figure out what to do, word it properly,
> and post it once a fire breaks out. It's only good if it's posted and
> everyone knows about it beforehand.  And it doesn't increase the risk of
> fire. And no one believes that it implies that the building is a wreck and
> a fire hazard, so no one is insulted or made uncomfortable by it.
>
> The discussion about keeping people safe and providing a reasonable
> assurance of a respectful environment has been all over the web for years.
>  I can't possibly cover all the bases about this, especially to everyone's
> satisfaction.  I'm sorry if this sounds like I'm avoiding the issue, but
> truly there is so much content that I would be spending several days trying
> to provide you a synopsis.  Perhaps, if you are interested, you could
> investigate how other companies and organizations have implemented their
> policies and post what you think everyone should know.
>
>
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Re: [CREATE] Code of Conduct

[Susan Spencer]

To be clear about this, not all 'adult' material or discussions would break
a Code of Conduct.
So that, by posting the following link, with the disclaimer that it
contains adult material
and to only click on it if you are not offended by the mention of body
parts,
I would not be violating any reasonable Code of Conduct, because it's not
insulting
to anyone, it's just awkward. I'm being rather silly by mentioning it.
 Tight pants I think is less
problematic as a theme of discussion compared to this, yet the linked
material
is strangely on-topic for this thread:

http://www.masterslaveconference.org/rules-policies.html

I'm posting this because I am a silly person, and to demonstrate that a
good Code of Coduct
properly meets the needs of its community, and not all discussion in poor
taste is
a violation of a Code of Conduct.

So there...

- Susan O


On Fri, Jan 17, 2014 at 1:55 PM, Susan Spencer wrote:

> Just for kicks, read the Norwegian Cruise Line's Guest Code of Conduct
> policy:
> http://www.ncl.com/faq/guest-conduct-policy
>
> They make parents repsonsible for their young adult's behavior! o.0
> And we probably wouldn't confiscate skateboards, either.
>
>
> On Fri, Jan 17, 2014 at 12:07 PM, Susan Spencer 
> wrote:
>
>> Hi Christoph,
>>
>> Well, I suppose that a Code of Conduct is meaningless without a plan to
>> implement it.  No need for chaos and confusion and miscommunication to
>> erupt if an incident occurs.  Having a process defined is always the most
>> efficient way to handle any potential occurrence (this goes for running a
>> convention as well as running a data center).  It's just logical and
>> practical.  It's like having an emergency exit plan posted for use in the
>> event of fire.  It's no good to figure out what to do, word it properly,
>> and post it once a fire breaks out. It's only good if it's posted and
>> everyone knows about it beforehand.  And it doesn't increase the risk of
>> fire. And no one believes that it implies that the building is a wreck and
>> a fire hazard, so no one is insulted or made uncomfortable by it.
>>
>> The discussion about keeping people safe and providing a reasonable
>> assurance of a respectful environment has been all over the web for years.
>>  I can't possibly cover all the bases about this, especially to everyone's
>> satisfaction.  I'm sorry if this sounds like I'm avoiding the issue, but
>> truly there is so much content that I would be spending several days trying
>> to provide you a synopsis.  Perhaps, if you are interested, you could
>> investigate how other companies and organizations have implemented their
>> policies and post what you think everyone should know.
>>
>>
>
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Re: [CREATE] Code of Conduct

[Gregory Pittman]

On 01/17/2014 01:07 PM, Susan Spencer wrote:
> 
> The discussion about keeping people safe and providing a reasonable
> assurance of a respectful environment has been all over the web for years.

This just sounds like "everyone is doing it so it must be a good thing
to do." Or maybe it's just something that's gone viral.

If someone feels unsafe at LGM, they should be notifying the local
police to have them deal with the issue.

There is probably more to be gained from group consensus and peer
pressure than from some regulation. Which individual or group at LGM has
the right to eject someone from the meeting?

Greg
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Re: [CREATE] Code of Conduct

[Susan Spencer]

One final link to examples, etc.:

"If recent high-profile incidents of sexual harassment and other
inappropriate
behavior at conferences and conventions haven't convinced you, listen to
our
expert sources: Your meeting needs a harassment policy.
Here's what you need to include."

http://www.convene-digital.org/convene/december_2013#pg95

It's possible there won't be a temporary CoC for LGM 2014
due to issues Sirko mentioned earlier in this thread,
but this document will be useful for the BOF meeting.
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Re: [CREATE] Code of Conduct

[Michael Schumacher]

On 17.01.2014 19:07, Susan Spencer wrote:
> Hi Christoph,

Hi Susan,

> Well, I suppose that a Code of Conduct is meaningless without a plan to
> implement it.  No need for chaos and confusion and miscommunication to
> erupt if an incident occurs.  Having a process defined is always the
> most efficient way to handle any potential occurrence (this goes for
> running a convention as well as running a data center).  It's just
> logical and practical.  It's like having an emergency exit plan posted
> for use in the event of fire.  It's no good to figure out what to do,
> word it properly, and post it once a fire breaks out.

we do not need to do this on our own, because plans exist and had a lot
of effort put into them, and are explained as well.

For example, I'd be very happy if the LGM organizers follow advices like
those in http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Women-friendly_events (and
the articles linked from there) and implement the suggestions given there.

I like the emergency exit plan image Susan used above. You may not need
it even just once in your whole life, but if you suddenly do, you will
be very glad that it is there and that you even remember some of it
without even trying to.

In general, I found http://geekfeminism.wikia.com to be an invaluable
resource, both to adjust my own behavior and learn about challenges I
never thought possible.


P.S. I'm part of a community that has an entry in Geekfeminism's
Timeline of Incidents; I was partly involved in that incident myself
(not perp, but cared too little and even had stayed on not rather good
terms with the perp for too long) and I think that it took us rather
long to solve this. If we have, I'm not sure if it is up to me to decide.

I definitely do not want LGM to appear there ever, and especially not in
a way that shows the organizers to have been unprepared. NB: I do not
know if they weren't already prepared at previous LGMs, because I didn't
have to test this and may never have to; I'm a white male and play life
on easy.


Addendum:

By arranging for the sponsoring of part of LGM, I feel a certain
responsibility to make sure that everyone feels good there.

Remember the party at Madrid last year? It was pleasing to learn that
the location is in a nice neighborhood, that the location itself, the
bartenders and the security guard ("sorry, you may not take your beer
outside. but just put it inside the doorstep, that'll be ok") were nice,
and that each and everyone was happy there.
Nevertheless, I scanned the relevant blogs for some time after the
event, to make sure that if anything I wasn't aware of popped up, I'd be
able to react asap. NB: if something did pop up, I haven't noticed it.

After all, I have to (at least, am strongly encouraged to) write reports
about the sponsored social events at LGM (and I learned that you rather
not try to be funny in those reports, but stick to the facts), because
the people who handle our money for us care about reputation and their
partial 501(c)(3) status. And I fully agree with their requirement.


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Re: [CREATE] Code of Conduct

[Susan Spencer]

Hi Michael!

Yes you're correct, there's no need to reinvent the wheel,
there are good examples to follow. And a CoC should be
adopted whether financial support results from it or not.

Is it worth informing the sponsors who require a CoC that
we plan to adopt a CoC at the meeting, as there may
be government bureaucratic issues which prevent
adopting a CoC at this time?
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Re: [CREATE] Code of Conduct

[Christoph Schäfer]

Hi Susan,

>> The discussion about keeping people safe and providing a reasonable 
>> assurance of a respectful environment has been all over the web for years.  

These are two completely distinct issues.

>> I can't possibly cover all the bases about this, especially to everyone's 
>> satisfaction.  I'm sorry if this sounds like I'm avoiding the issue, 

But that's exactly what you do. 

>> but truly there is so much content that I would be spending several days 
>> trying to provide you a synopsis.  

If I want to publish a paper in a peer-reviewed scientific magazine, a footnote 
following your model ("[T]here is so much content that I would be spending 
several days trying to provide [...] a synopsis.") would immediately disqualify 
the whole text. I also didn't ask for a synopsis. I asked some very simple 
questions, which I'll repeat:

Your bold statement was: "CoCs help keep people safe."

Original reply from me (I changed Q to S -- for "statement"):

>> S: "Both are necessary."
>>C: Please explain why.

No answer so far.

As to the other questions, you cavalierly ignored them, so let me repeat them, 
one by one:

- Please explain how a CoC can help to keep people safe.

- Define who's being threatened.

- Who's the threat?

- What's the threat?

- Who's the safeguard against threats?

- If a threat can't be identified with a single person or a group, please 
define what else should be considered a threat and how a CoC can "help (to) 
keep people safe" other than law enforcement or civic common sense.

Would you mind answering them? Examples would be sufficient.

Your Norwegian example is pretty weak, btw, since this is boilerplate legal 
language in many European states.

Christoph
 
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Re: [CREATE] Code of Conduct

[Dave Crossland]

Hi!

NB: This email offers no practical advice about an LGM CoC, but answers
emails that have not yet been answered about the overall context of CoCs in
the wide tech community today.

Also, the following is my person opinion and doesn't reflect the views of
any clients, organisations or projects I am associated with.

Dear Christoph and Gregory,

On 17 January 2014 12:30, Gregory Pittman  wrote:

> On 01/17/2014 01:07 PM, Susan Spencer wrote:
> >
> > The discussion about keeping people safe and providing a reasonable
> > assurance of a respectful environment has been all over the web for
> years.
>
> This just sounds like "everyone is doing it so it must be a good thing
> to do." Or maybe it's just something that's gone viral.
>
> If someone feels unsafe at LGM, they should be notifying the local
> police to have them deal with the issue.
>

and on 18 January 2014 00:09, "Christoph Schäfer"  wrote:

>
> >> The discussion about keeping people safe and providing a reasonable
> assurance of a respectful environment has been all over the web for years.
>
> These are two completely distinct issues.
>
> >> I can't possibly cover all the bases about this, especially to
> everyone's satisfaction.  I'm sorry if this sounds like I'm avoiding the
> issue,
>
> But that's exactly what you do.
>
> >> but truly there is so much content that I would be spending several
> days trying to provide you a synopsis.
>
> If I want to publish a paper in a peer-reviewed scientific magazine, a
> footnote following your model ("[T]here is so much content that I would be
> spending several days trying to provide [...] a synopsis.") would
> immediately disqualify the whole text. I also didn't ask for a synopsis. I
> asked some very simple questions, which I'll repeat:
>
> Your bold statement was: "CoCs help keep people safe."
>
> Original reply from me (I changed Q to S -- for "statement"):
>
> >> S: "Both are necessary."
> >>C: Please explain why.
>
> No answer so far.
>
> As to the other questions, you cavalierly ignored them, so let me repeat
> them, one by one:
>
> - Please explain how a CoC can help to keep people safe.
>
> - Define who's being threatened.
>
> - Who's the threat?
>
> - What's the threat?
>
> - Who's the safeguard against threats?
>
> - If a threat can't be identified with a single person or a group, please
> define what else should be considered a threat and how a CoC can "help (to)
> keep people safe" other than law enforcement or civic common sense.
>
> Would you mind answering them? Examples would be sufficient.
>
> Your Norwegian example is pretty weak, btw, since this is boilerplate
> legal language in many European states.
>

Your line of questioning is pretty weak, yet I think you show good faith
that you would like to better understand. I hope I can explain what is
going on here to you.

You are both questioning the premise that a CoC improves actual safety or
perceived safety.

But what things mean for very privileged people like you and me is not the
same as what they mean for less privileged people.

That is the point I want to make here, about what 'unsafe' means. To make
this point I want to challenge your most extreme example of safety.

In your emails, you both propose the police as a beacon of safety. Do you
feel certain in your believe about that? Please reflect on the amount of
certainty you feel about that, and read on.

I guess that you would feel very certain, believing the police to be
peaceful, honest, etc, and thinking that these are all rational beliefs. I
guess you have never experienced anything to even suggest the contrary; in
fact it may even be sort of 'unthinkable,' and you are perhaps slightly
frowning as you read these lines, as I am saying that the police are
violent liars who you should fear.

Here's an example of that which I noticed earlier today in the headlines:

www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/01/18/philadelphia-teen-suffers-ruptured-testicle-and-hit-with-misdemeanors-during-police-patdown/

Here is the quote from the mother:

  “I blame myself,” Coney said. “I taught my
  son to respect cops, not to fear them.
  Maybe if he was afraid, he would have
  run like the other boys and he would have
  [not had his testicle ruptured by a policewoman,
  rendering him unable to be a biological father.]”

Do you respect or fear police? Can you imagine it is rational to teach your
children to fear the police? I expect your default posture towards the
police is one of total respect, as is mine, and you will pass this belief
into your [potential future] kids. [0]

However, I recognize that my sure belief (that I will be treated fairly by
police) is rational because of my circumstances, and my circumstances are
not universal. I understand that it is rational for many people to fear
police, in the same way you and I fear people who look, talk and act like
thugs in the very rare moments we chance upon them. [1]

So far I didn't get disabused of my beliefs about the police, but violently
unfair tr

Re: [CREATE] Code of Conduct

[Susan Spencer]

PyCon, in addition to having one of the
best anti-harassment polices, is now
providing childcare thanks to their
enlightened community:
https://us.pycon.org/2014/childcare/
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Re: [CREATE] Code of Conduct

[Christoph Schäfer]

Gesendet: Sonntag, 19. Januar 2014 um 05:44 Uhr
Von: "Dave Crossland" 
An: "Christoph Schäfer" , "Gregory Pittman" 

Cc: "Susan Spencer" , "Create ML" 

Betreff: Re: [CREATE] Code of Conduct

Hi!

> NB: This email offers no practical advice about an LGM CoC, but answers 
> emails that have not yet been answered about the overall context of CoCs in 
> the wide tech community today.
 
> Also, the following is my person opinion and doesn't reflect the views of any 
> clients, organisations or projects I am associated with.
Dear Christoph and Gregory,



Hi David,

First of all, I want to let you know that cutting out your reply is due to two 
reasons: One, your message wasn't in plain text, which, I think, is still a 
standard for Open Source mailing lists (correct me if I am wrong). Second: You 
don't actually expect a rational discussion on the issues you raised, do you? 

I refuse to discuss this issue with you, because it would yield the same result 
as discussing the weaknesses of Psychoanalysis or Creationism with their 
respective supporters. It's futile, because critical questions only reinforce 
their dogmas.

If you, as a "white priviledged male", have undergone some training in formal 
logic, you should also be able to see where youre trail of reasoning went 
off-rails (hint: at the very beginning).

Getting back to LGM and a CoC: If your fundamentalist perception of society as 
a whole, your prejudices, your false assumptions, your dogmas and LGM in 
particular have any chance to become a foundation of an event, I suggest 
removing "Libre" and replace it with "Righteous" (RGM), because nothing of the 
original "Libre" will be left.


Christoph
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Re: [CREATE] Code of Conduct

[Hin-Tak Leung]

That's a good point - rather than focusing on the vague and philosophical, 
the statement can include practical guidelines, etc. Childcare is one, 
commitment to provide wheelchair access, and possible aids for partially 
sighted and hearing-impaired... 

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>PyCon, in addition to having one of the
>best anti-harassment polices, is now
>providing childcare thanks to their
>enlightened community:
>https://us.pycon.org/2014/childcare/

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Re: [CREATE] Code of Conduct

[Simon Budig]

Hi Christoph.

"Christoph Schäfer" (christoph-schae...@gmx.de) wrote:
> Second: You don't actually expect a rational discussion on the issues
> you raised, do you? 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you don't either, right?

Your (I think) first mail on that topic was very confrontational and the
tone of your demands for explantations did seem to indicate to me that
you're not interested in the answers, but in non-answers, so that you
later can shoot down the proposal.

Seems you got your non-answers:

> I refuse [...] Psychoanalysis or Creationism [...] futile, [...]
> reinforce their dogmas.
> 
> fundamentalist [...] prejudices, [...] false assumptions, [...]
> dogmas [...] removing "Libre" [...] "Righteous" (RGM), [...] nothing of
> the original "Libre" will be left.

Right. Because installing firealarms will only attract arsonists and
basically make the house inhabitable.

Bye,
 Simon

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Re: [CREATE] Code of Conduct

[Dave Crossland]

Hi Christoph!

On 20 January 2014 00:12, "Christoph Schäfer"  wrote:
>
>
> First of all, I want to let you know that cutting out your reply is due to 
> two reasons:
> One, your message wasn't in plain text, which, I think, is still a standard 
> for
> Open Source mailing lists (correct me if I am wrong).

Kindly, you are wrong. Where is this standard drafted and ratified?

Still, I'll use plain text to accommodate you.

> Second: You don't actually expect a rational discussion on the
> issues you raised, do you?

I'm sorry that this sounds like you're avoiding the issue.

You asked some very simple questions, which I'll repeat with my answers:

> > - Define who's being threatened.
>
> People with less privilege.
>
> > - Who's the threat?
>
> People with privilege.
>
> > - What's the threat?
>
> There are 2 classes of threats:
>
> 1. Soft threats - abuses of privilege
>
> 2. Hard threads - violence, and threats thereof.
>
> >- Who's the safeguard against threats?
>
> Instead of the de facto escalation chain being
>
> person -> friends -> cops
>
> an Event CoC provisions a incident response team which is known to everyone 
> at the event, so the chain multiplies:
>
> person -> incident response team -> cops
> friends -> incident response team -> cops
> strangers -> incident response team -> cops
>
> The incident response team might span event regulars, to committee members, 
> to organizers, to the location's regular staff, to the location's security 
> staff.
>
> >- If a threat can't be identified with a single person
> > or a group,
>
> Since every human has the potential to cause an incident... 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pogo_%28comic_strip%29#.22We_have_met_the_enemy_and_he_is_us..22
>
> > please define what else should be
> > considered a threat and how a CoC can "help (to)
> > keep people safe" other than law enforcement
> > or civic common sense.

Would you mind answering me?

No answer so far.

As to my other questions, you cavalierly ignored them, so let me
repeat them, one by one:

1. I am curious if either of you would agree you were using an
ethnocentric definition of 'unsafe'?

2. Your meaning of 'safe' implies a 'hard threat' of violence. But
neither article describing incidents at events like LGM involve any
violence. Yet both use the word 'safe.' Why is that?

> I refuse to discuss this issue with you,

Ah, that's a pity. I honestly did think that you were seeking
understanding on this topic.

> because it would yield the same result as discussing the weaknesses
> of Psychoanalysis or Creationism with their respective supporters.
> It's futile, because critical questions only reinforce their dogmas.

If you have undergone some training in formal logic, you should also
be able to see where your trail of reasoning went off-rails (hint: at
the first ad hominem c.f. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem ).

Your Psychoanalysis example is pretty weak, btw.

> Getting back to LGM and a CoC: If your fundamentalist perception of
> society as a whole, your prejudices, your false assumptions, your dogmas
> and LGM in particular have any chance to become a foundation of an
> event, I suggest removing "Libre" and replace it with "Righteous"
> (RGM), because nothing of the original "Libre" will be left.

That sounds very righteous of you :)

-- 
Cheers
Dave
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Re: [CREATE] Code of Conduct

[Christoph Schäfer]

Hi Simon,

> Hi Christoph.
> 
> "Christoph Schäfer" (christoph-schae...@gmx.de) wrote:
> > Second: You don't actually expect a rational discussion on the issues
> > you raised, do you? 
> 
> Correct me if I'm wrong, but you don't either, right?

Wrong. I asked very simple questions.

> 
> Your (I think) first mail on that topic was very confrontational and the
> tone of your demands for explantations did seem to indicate to me that
> you're not interested in the answers, but in non-answers, so that you
> later can shoot down the proposal.

Wrong again. I was *very* intersted in substantial answers.

> 
> Seems you got your non-answers:
> 
> > I refuse [...] Psychoanalysis or Creationism [...] futile, [...]
> > reinforce their dogmas.
> > 
> > fundamentalist [...] prejudices, [...] false assumptions, [...]
> > dogmas [...] removing "Libre" [...] "Righteous" (RGM), [...] nothing of
> > the original "Libre" will be left.
> 
> Right. Because installing firealarms will only attract arsonists and
> basically make the house inhabitable.

Right. Because male white human beings are "priviledged" and also monsters that 
need to be kept at bay.

If that's what defines the "Libre" Graphics Community, I'd rather not belong to 
it.

Christoph
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Re: [CREATE] Code of Conduct

[John Haltiwanger]

On Mon, Jan 20, 2014 at 11:29 AM, "Christoph Schäfer" <
christoph-schae...@gmx.de> wrote:

> Hi Simon,
>
> > Hi Christoph.
> >
> > "Christoph Schäfer" (christoph-schae...@gmx.de) wrote:
> > > Second: You don't actually expect a rational discussion on the issues
> > > you raised, do you?
> >
> > Correct me if I'm wrong, but you don't either, right?
>
> Wrong. I asked very simple questions.
>
> >
> > Your (I think) first mail on that topic was very confrontational and the
> > tone of your demands for explantations did seem to indicate to me that
> > you're not interested in the answers, but in non-answers, so that you
> > later can shoot down the proposal.
>
> Wrong again. I was *very* intersted in substantial answers.
>
> >
> > Seems you got your non-answers:
> >
> > > I refuse [...] Psychoanalysis or Creationism [...] futile, [...]
> > > reinforce their dogmas.
> > >
> > > fundamentalist [...] prejudices, [...] false assumptions, [...]
> > > dogmas [...] removing "Libre" [...] "Righteous" (RGM), [...] nothing of
> > > the original "Libre" will be left.
> >
> > Right. Because installing firealarms will only attract arsonists and
> > basically make the house inhabitable.
>
> Right. Because male white human beings are "priviledged" and also monsters
> that need to be kept at bay.
>

Where does this fall apart for you? Are you having trouble understanding
that we live in a patriarchal world where "first world" countries are those
founded and populated by white people?

No privilege comes as a result, eh?

Except that in this very thread you are demanding that you be given the
privilege to define what/how/when safety should be defined. You are
demanding the privilege that you are in the only defensible position, even
as thousands of discussions have been flowing into libre circles about this
over the last few years.

You are demanding the right to ignore the viewpoints of those who come with
less privilege and thus higher stakes (even if those viewpoints are raised
by their allies who seemingly have the same privilege of you).

You don't even get it after all that, though, do you?

Well how about this:

You are angry because you see this discussion of privilege as if it were
coming to take something from you, something which you deserve and should
be untouchable. That 'something' is a direct result of your privilege right
there that you are obsessed with ignoring. The people who say you are
privileged can't be right, because you have the right to say so! Can you at
last see how ridiculous a position that is?

Don't blame the world (or libre communities who are trying to finally rid
themselves of the sexism and racism of an unfortunately huge number of
hackers out there)  for deciding to listen to other viewpoints and to start
doing something about the
I'm-privileged-but-will-never-admit-it-you-have-all-the-same-opportunities-as-me-it's-only-that-you-aren't-as-good-as-me
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Re: [CREATE] Code of Conduct

[Dave Crossland]

Hi

On 20 January 2014 02:29, "Christoph Schäfer"  wrote:
>
> male white human beings are "priviledged" and also monsters that need to be 
> kept at bay.

Seems like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conjunction_fallacy :)

Human beings are priviledged in various ways (race, gender, age,
class, ability (eg hearing ability) etc etc):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersectionality

Some human beings "need to be kept at bay":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_of_conduct

I'm sorry you take both these facts so emotionally, and I suggest
that's not necessary. Not all people with privileged gender or race
are abusive -- just some of them, and LGM ought to have a CoC to
account for these 2 facts.

The only objection to LGM having a CoC that I will not find fault with
is 'yes but later.'

-- 
Cheers
Dave
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Re: [CREATE] Code of Conduct

[Louis Desjardins]

2014/1/20 Dave Crossland 

> Hi
>
> On 20 January 2014 02:29, "Christoph Schäfer" 
> wrote:
> >
> > male white human beings are "priviledged" and also monsters that need to
> be kept at bay.
>
> Seems like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conjunction_fallacy :)
>
> Human beings are priviledged in various ways (race, gender, age,
> class, ability (eg hearing ability) etc etc):
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersectionality
>
> Some human beings "need to be kept at bay":
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_of_conduct
>
> I'm sorry you take both these facts so emotionally, and I suggest
> that's not necessary. Not all people with privileged gender or race
> are abusive -- just some of them, and LGM ought to have a CoC to
> account for these 2 facts.
>
> The only objection to LGM having a CoC that I will not find fault with
> is 'yes but later.'
>

Dear all,

First of all, thank you for participating in this discussion.

It certainly shows we have lots to say. ;-)

At this point in time I would suggest we keep further argumentation for
discussion at the LGM itself. We could reserve a slot in the program for
this to happen.

Meanwhile, I am back to my question about adopting a CoC based on the PyCon
short version as edited by Greg, if we can get consensus on it.

Any suggestion on how we should make the decision will be appreciated. We
do not have very formal ways of deciding so it’s up to us to decide how we
want to handle that.

Clearly, from the standpoint of a co-organiser, we need to settle this. We
basically have two choices (correct me if I’m wrong):

1. No adoption of a CoC but discussion going on at LGM about this. Decision
of having one (or not) taken at LGM
2. Adoption of a CoC in the coming days through this list or by other means
we decide. Short version as mentionned above and discussion at LGM for
further enhancements.

What do we pick?

Would it be ok if we make the decision with the co-organisers of this
year’s LGM plus the people here who followed the discussion (in silent or
not)? Any other suggestion?

Thanks for taking the time of giving it a thought and tentatively get back
before Wed. Jan 22, 18:00 "Central Europe Time" (when to co-organisers have
an IRC meeting).

An online poll might help gather the answers? Can someone put it together?

Cheers!

Louis





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Re: [CREATE] Code of Conduct

[Gez]

> > male white human beings are "priviledged" and also monsters that need to be 
> > kept at bay.

Guys, after a few rounds this conversation about "white male privilege"
starts to sound a little bit patronizing.

I'm not going to deny that white males from first-world countries have a
privilege, but that statement coming again and again from... white males
from first-world countries, sounds like showing off the privilege rather
than an honest concern.
So please cut the paternalistic attitude. You don't have to protect the
less fortunate. Just treat them properly :-)

We, the non-white humans (unless being white from the lack of sun
exposure because you're a basement nerd counts as white, in that case
count me in) are pretty aware of that privilege, and we are aware that
most of the people with that privilege don't use it to bully or harass
others.

Personally, I think a CoC is ok, but as other people pointed out, I'm
not sure about how effective it could be. I mean, a jerk is a jerk, a
code of conduct won't keep him/her from abusing others.
The only real measure that makes a difference is acting immediately when
somebody abuses others, ejecting that person from the event and banning
him/her from future editions.
I'm not sure if a code of conduct will stop an idiot from being an
idiot. Privileged or not (a girl from the third world can abuse verbally
or phyisically a white male too, and that wouldn't be nice either).

People usually behave. Conferences like the LGM gather people with
similar interests, so it's reasonable to expect a friendly environment.
If it's really necessary to set a code of conduct keep that in mind and
try to avoid confronting the majority of cool people attending with a
negative message, nasty examples and threats.

Kind regards,
Gez.

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Re: [CREATE] Code of Conduct

[Christoph Schäfer]

> Gesendet: Montag, 20. Januar 2014 um 21:24 Uhr
> Von: Gez 
> An: create@lists.freedesktop.org
> Betreff: Re: [CREATE] Code of Conduct
>
> > > male white human beings are "priviledged" and also monsters that need to 
> > > be kept at bay.
> 
> Guys, after a few rounds this conversation about "white male privilege"
> starts to sound a little bit patronizing.
> 
> I'm not going to deny that white males from first-world countries have a
> privilege, but that statement coming again and again from... white males
> from first-world countries, sounds like showing off the privilege rather
> than an honest concern.
> So please cut the paternalistic attitude. You don't have to protect the
> less fortunate. Just treat them properly :-)
> 
> We, the non-white humans (unless being white from the lack of sun
> exposure because you're a basement nerd counts as white, in that case
> count me in) are pretty aware of that privilege, and we are aware that
> most of the people with that privilege don't use it to bully or harass
> others.
> 
> Personally, I think a CoC is ok, but as other people pointed out, I'm
> not sure about how effective it could be. I mean, a jerk is a jerk, a
> code of conduct won't keep him/her from abusing others.
> The only real measure that makes a difference is acting immediately when
> somebody abuses others, ejecting that person from the event and banning
> him/her from future editions.
> I'm not sure if a code of conduct will stop an idiot from being an
> idiot. Privileged or not (a girl from the third world can abuse verbally
> or phyisically a white male too, and that wouldn't be nice either).
> 
> People usually behave. Conferences like the LGM gather people with
> similar interests, so it's reasonable to expect a friendly environment.
> If it's really necessary to set a code of conduct keep that in mind and
> try to avoid confronting the majority of cool people attending with a
> negative message, nasty examples and threats.
> 
> Kind regards,
> Gez.
> 

Couldn't agree more. People don't need to carry civil and criminal law codes 
(or CoC's) with them to treat each other with decency and respect.


Christoph
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Re: [CREATE] Code of Conduct

[ginger coons]

On 01/20/2014 03:24 PM, Gez wrote:

male white human beings are "priviledged" and also monsters that need to be 
kept at bay.

Guys, after a few rounds this conversation about "white male privilege"
starts to sound a little bit patronizing.

I'm not going to deny that white males from first-world countries have a
privilege, but that statement coming again and again from... white males
from first-world countries, sounds like showing off the privilege rather
than an honest concern.
So please cut the paternalistic attitude. You don't have to protect the
less fortunate. Just treat them properly :-)

We, the non-white humans (unless being white from the lack of sun
exposure because you're a basement nerd counts as white, in that case
count me in) are pretty aware of that privilege, and we are aware that
most of the people with that privilege don't use it to bully or harass
others.

Personally, I think a CoC is ok, but as other people pointed out, I'm
not sure about how effective it could be. I mean, a jerk is a jerk, a
code of conduct won't keep him/her from abusing others.
The only real measure that makes a difference is acting immediately when
somebody abuses others, ejecting that person from the event and banning
him/her from future editions.
I'm not sure if a code of conduct will stop an idiot from being an
idiot. Privileged or not (a girl from the third world can abuse verbally
or phyisically a white male too, and that wouldn't be nice either).
Though a CoC might not prevent a determined jerk from being one, having 
an set of expectations about what counts as harassing behaviour might 
help people realize that what they're doing might be unwelcome. It's 
possible to perpetrate harassment and make people feel unsafe without 
realizing it. As Dave mentioned up-thread, one of the key things about 
checking our privilege is realizing that things we may find acceptable 
ourselves might be intensely unwelcome to others.


What makes a code of conduct most useful isn't that it makes enforcement 
and punishment easier, but that it lays out some mutual understandings 
about what's considered inappropriate in a community. As we grow and as 
more newcomers join in, having some tangible evidence of our community 
expectations, instead of just a tacit understanding, is going to be more 
and more important.


-ginger

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Skype: gingercoons
XMPP: gin...@adaptstudio.ca

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Re: [CREATE] Code of Conduct

[Louis Desjardins]

2014/1/20 Gez 

> > > male white human beings are "priviledged" and also monsters that need
> to be kept at bay.
>
> Guys, after a few rounds this conversation about "white male privilege"
> starts to sound a little bit patronizing.
>
> I'm not going to deny that white males from first-world countries have a
> privilege, but that statement coming again and again from... white males
> from first-world countries, sounds like showing off the privilege rather
> than an honest concern.
> So please cut the paternalistic attitude. You don't have to protect the
> less fortunate. Just treat them properly :-)
>
> We, the non-white humans (unless being white from the lack of sun
> exposure because you're a basement nerd counts as white, in that case
> count me in) are pretty aware of that privilege, and we are aware that
> most of the people with that privilege don't use it to bully or harass
> others.
>
> Personally, I think a CoC is ok, but as other people pointed out, I'm
> not sure about how effective it could be. I mean, a jerk is a jerk, a
> code of conduct won't keep him/her from abusing others.
> The only real measure that makes a difference is acting immediately when
> somebody abuses others, ejecting that person from the event and banning
> him/her from future editions.
> I'm not sure if a code of conduct will stop an idiot from being an
> idiot. Privileged or not (a girl from the third world can abuse verbally
> or phyisically a white male too, and that wouldn't be nice either).
>
> People usually behave. Conferences like the LGM gather people with
> similar interests, so it's reasonable to expect a friendly environment.
> If it's really necessary to set a code of conduct keep that in mind and
> try to avoid confronting the majority of cool people attending with a
> negative message, nasty examples and threats.
>

Hi Gez,

I agree. I believe what’s proposed goes in that direction.

As I mentionned earlier in this thread, we already have an implicit code of
conduct.

We do behave.

Putting it in words won’t hurt and using a positive wording will reinforce
the idea that we want LGM to be as friendly and open to others as possible.

I don’t think anybody would want a negative message and nasty examples and
threats! So, there won’t be! :-)

Thanks for the input!

Louis



>
> Kind regards,
> Gez.
>
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Re: [CREATE] Code of Conduct

[Gez]

El lun, 20-01-2014 a las 16:46 -0500, ginger coons escribió:

> Though a CoC might not prevent a determined jerk from being one, having 
> an set of expectations about what counts as harassing behaviour might 
> help people realize that what they're doing might be unwelcome. It's 
> possible to perpetrate harassment and make people feel unsafe without 
> realizing it. As Dave mentioned up-thread, one of the key things about 
> checking our privilege is realizing that things we may find acceptable 
> ourselves might be intensely unwelcome to others.
> 
> What makes a code of conduct most useful isn't that it makes enforcement 
> and punishment easier, but that it lays out some mutual understandings 
> about what's considered inappropriate in a community. As we grow and as 
> more newcomers join in, having some tangible evidence of our community 
> expectations, instead of just a tacit understanding, is going to be more 
> and more important.

Although I understand your point and I agree that avoiding some
misunderstandings is enough of a reason for the CoC, I'd like to point
out that unintended behaviors are really easy to correct, just by
talking.

Take this simple example: here in South America we're used to hello
kisses.
Not only to people we know. Also to people we just met (or even when
they are being introduced to us).

If you and me meet personally and somebody introduces us, there's a
chance I'll approach you for a hello kiss.
In my country that's very natural. I don't know if that's the case in
yours, but I know that in several countries that leads to an awkward
moment. Some sensitive person may even feel unsafe in that situation.

If that's outside your comfort zone, you just have to step back and say
"I'm sorry. I'm not used to that and makes me feel a little
uncomfortable" and I (and probably most of the people) would understand
and offer a sincere apology, making it clear that it wasn't my intention
to make you feel uncomfortable.
The awkward moment ends there. I doubt that any reasonable person would
call that harassment or feel bad if the other person offered an apology
and stopped the offending behavior immediately.

But I could also meet a person from a country where hello kisses are as
common as in mine, and nothing at all would happen.

So, how do we treat that kind of situations? If we say that any kind of
physical contact isn't appropriate to manifest affection, we'd make
people who feel unsafe with being touched feel safe, of course. But at
the same time we'd be deeming inappropriate something that makes a lot
of people feel welcome and in a friendly place.
Honestly, I think I'd feel quite bad in a place where every time
somebody offers a friendly hug or kiss in a cheek somebody freaks out
and screams "he/she tried to hug me!!!" instead of saying that hugs are
not ok for him/her.

If somebody touches another person intentionally and doesn't stop when
the person asks it or shows uncomfort, we're not talking about an
inocent guy who offended another unintendedly: we're talking about an
abusive person who's going forward anyway, even after the other
manifested his/her uncomfort.
And honestly, I don't think a person capable of doing that would care
much about what a CoC says.

A person who's ready to call other people names, making mean comments
about race, gender, sexual orientation or whatever is a jerk. And that
can't be excused by saying you don't know it makes people feel bad.
If the offense has an intention, then the CoC won't make a difference.
It's hard to believe that a person who can't respect others will respect
a CoC.
If the offense is unintended, then dialog in-situ can solve most of the
awkward moments. The CoC won't make a difference there.

That's why I say I'm not sure about how effective a CoC is preventing
incidents.
But I'm not saying LGM shouldn't have one because of that. It won't harm
having one, but if it means administrative headaches for the organizers
(and it was suggested that it would) I think it should be discussed.

Perhaps the same effect can be achieved with a simple statement in the
web, without calling it "code of conduct" or writing something that
could be considered a legal document or agreement.
Just saying "treat others with respect and ask for respect if you feel
mistreated. If somebody feels offended for something you did or said and
asks you to stop, offer an apology and avoid that behavior".
It's just keeping it friendly and safe. Something that can be achieved
with a bit of common sense and respect.

Gez.

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Re: [CREATE] Code of Conduct

[Dave Crossland]

On 20 January 2014 23:09, Gez  wrote:
> I'm not sure about how effective a CoC is preventing
> incidents.

A fire alarm doesn't prevent fires, it helps people know where to go
after one has started.

The point of a CoC is the same, planning the escalation process ahead
of time, to avoid the problems inherent in structurelessness.

That is the difference between a general CoC and an event specific one.
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Re: [CREATE] Code of Conduct

[Simon Budig]

Gez (lis...@ohweb.com.ar) wrote:
> I'm not going to deny that white males from first-world countries have a
> privilege, but that statement coming again and again from... white males
> from first-world countries, sounds like showing off the privilege rather
> than an honest concern.
> So please cut the paternalistic attitude. You don't have to protect the
> less fortunate. Just treat them properly :-)

Well, I hope I do. And I don't mean to be patronizing, sorry for that.

However, I think that to "protect the less fortunate" is the whole point
of a CoC. Where "protecting" starts with creating awareness, that
harassment is very real in our society. And while most people indeed do
treat other people properly we need to realize, that dealing with these
idealistic values like free and open software, high ethic ideals etc.
does not automatically protect us from having jerks and idiotic behaviour
among us.

And I sincerely hope that I somehow manage to speak up when I witness
harassment - and I hope I am allowed to do so despite being a
first-world-white-male...   :)

I believe a CoC can help encouraging this. And yes, I do believe that a
positive wording without a generalized suspicion helps in reaching that
goal.

Bye,
Simon

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Re: [CREATE] Code of Conduct

[Chris Lilley]

Hello Louis,

Monday, January 20, 2014, 4:11:57 PM, you wrote:

> Clearly, from the standpoint of a co-organiser, we need to settle
> this. We basically have two choices (correct me if I’m wrong):  

> 1. No adoption of a CoC but discussion going on at LGM about this.
> Decision of having one (or not) taken at LGM
> 2. Adoption of a CoC in the coming days through this list or by
> other means we decide. Short version as mentionned above and
> discussion at LGM for further enhancements.  

> What do we pick?

2). Adopt a lightly-reworded PyCon code for this time around, and
gather both feedback and experience using it to decide if a further
refinement is necessary for next time.

> Would it be ok if we make the decision with the co-organisers of
> this year’s LGM

Yes. Just do it.


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Re: [CREATE] Code of Conduct

[Dave Crossland]

Hi!

On 20 January 2014 15:11, Louis Desjardins  wrote:
>
> Would it be ok if we make the decision with the co-organisers of this year’s
> LGM plus the people here who followed the discussion (in silent or not)?

But clearly its the co-organizers' prerogative to figure out who
incidents should be escalated to, or not, to put a CoC on the website,
or not, and if they provide physical items to attendees
(schedules/name badges/promo bags/etc) to include a copy, or not.

If the bureaucracy of the host means its not possible for the
co-organizers, that's okay for me, and next year I hope there will be
one.

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Re: [CREATE] Code of Conduct

[Susan Spencer]

I agree with Chris.

+1


On Mon, Jan 20, 2014 at 5:28 PM, Chris Lilley  wrote:

>
> 2). Adopt a lightly-reworded PyCon code for this time around, and
> gather both feedback and experience using it to decide if a further
> refinement is necessary for next time.
>
> > Would it be ok if we make the decision with the co-organisers of
> > this year’s LGM
>
> Yes. Just do it.
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Re: [CREATE] Code of Conduct

[Dave Crossland]

Dear Sirko,

On 20 January 2014 23:46, Dave Crossland  wrote:
>
> On 20 January 2014 15:11, Louis Desjardins  wrote:
>>
>> Would it be ok if we make the decision with the co-organisers of this year’s
>> LGM plus the people here who followed the discussion (in silent or not)?
>
> But clearly its the co-organizers' prerogative to figure out who
> incidents should be escalated to, or not, to put a CoC on the website,
> or not, and if they provide physical items to attendees
> (schedules/name badges/promo bags/etc) to include a copy, or not.
>
> If the bureaucracy of the host means its not possible for the
> co-organizers, that's okay for me, and next year I hope there will be
> one.

I just realised that its been around a week since your email, and you
didn't yet follow up with some news on what you wrote:

On 15 January 2014 17:04, S.Kemter  wrote:
>
> we will not have an ok [on a CoC text] before LGM.

I think its worth re-iterating this point; there will not be a CoC at
this LGM, not because the organizers don't want one, but because
putting one in place would require more time than is available.

> What we could do is simple to invite the "Gleichstellungsbeauftragten" I
> dont know how to translate that titel and if Equality Ombudsman is right for
> it to watch over us and we can surly ask him to help us for formulating an
> CoC for later events. I think nobody of us would be that firm as someone,
> who does nothing else then handle exactly what some here think an CoC would
> solve.

Sirko, how has the invitation to the Gleichstellungsbeauftragten fared?

If they agree to attend, will their presence and how to reach them be
mentioned on the website, and will attendees be notified at the event?

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Re: [CREATE] Code of Conduct

[S.Kemter]

Hi,

Nope it hasnt, some here on the list wanted to discuss an CoC furthermore,
some even wanted to take a vote on it. I feel since days ignored because
the discussion went on. The only one who can have a problem with it, is
from my point of view is Louis, because he has to take it to PSF an look if
they can agree to that solution.

Of course after I spoke with him and we find a way he will get his own page
on lgm.org but before I speak with him, I think Louis should look that PSF
agrees for that I waited.


br gnokii


2014/1/21 Dave Crossland 

> Dear Sirko,
>
> On 20 January 2014 23:46, Dave Crossland  wrote:
> >
> > On 20 January 2014 15:11, Louis Desjardins 
> wrote:
> >>
> >> Would it be ok if we make the decision with the co-organisers of this
> year’s
> >> LGM plus the people here who followed the discussion (in silent or not)?
> >
> > But clearly its the co-organizers' prerogative to figure out who
> > incidents should be escalated to, or not, to put a CoC on the website,
> > or not, and if they provide physical items to attendees
> > (schedules/name badges/promo bags/etc) to include a copy, or not.
> >
> > If the bureaucracy of the host means its not possible for the
> > co-organizers, that's okay for me, and next year I hope there will be
> > one.
>
> I just realised that its been around a week since your email, and you
> didn't yet follow up with some news on what you wrote:
>
> On 15 January 2014 17:04, S.Kemter  wrote:
> >
> > we will not have an ok [on a CoC text] before LGM.
>
> I think its worth re-iterating this point; there will not be a CoC at
> this LGM, not because the organizers don't want one, but because
> putting one in place would require more time than is available.
>
> > What we could do is simple to invite the "Gleichstellungsbeauftragten" I
> > dont know how to translate that titel and if Equality Ombudsman is right
> for
> > it to watch over us and we can surly ask him to help us for formulating
> an
> > CoC for later events. I think nobody of us would be that firm as someone,
> > who does nothing else then handle exactly what some here think an CoC
> would
> > solve.
>
> Sirko, how has the invitation to the Gleichstellungsbeauftragten fared?
>
> If they agree to attend, will their presence and how to reach them be
> mentioned on the website, and will attendees be notified at the event?
>
> --
> Cheers
> Dave
>



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Re: [CREATE] Code of Conduct

[Tobias Ellinghaus]

Am Montag, 20. Januar 2014, 20:09:42 schrieb Gez:

[...]

> A person who's ready to call other people names, making mean comments
> about race, gender, sexual orientation or whatever is a jerk. And that
> can't be excused by saying you don't know it makes people feel bad.
> If the offense has an intention, then the CoC won't make a difference.
> It's hard to believe that a person who can't respect others will respect
> a CoC.
> If the offense is unintended, then dialog in-situ can solve most of the
> awkward moments. The CoC won't make a difference there.

Even that isn't as easy as it seems. Christoph Schäfer has been told a few 
days ago that his way of arguing was aggressive (or something like that, I 
don't want to go through all the mails to find the exact wording) while it 
sounded like a perfectly normal discussion to me. Maybe it's that Germans are 
more direct, maybe it's a benefit of being a technical person who can do 
without all the nice extra words and express the issues at hand. But whatever 
the reason is, not everyone is comfortable with the American (?) way to put 
everything into harmless words. So it is similar to the hugging example: may I 
not tell someone that he is an idiot if that is the case? Not necessarily in a 
derogative way, but just in a discussion. Does the idea that someone expresses 
his disagreement like that make you feel uncomfortable? Well, not being able 
to express me the way I am used to makes ME feel uncomfortable.

So where to draw the line? As I wrote at the first day of this discussion I 
also prefer the "treat others the way you think it is ok, and if it turns out 
that the other person doesn't feel the same then try to adapt and find some 
common ground for social interaction." approach. That is what being a social 
being is about: being able to copy with different social backgrounds, adapting 
and reacting to the situation at hand. And in the worst case avoid that person 
if interaction is not possible.

[...]

> Gez.

Tobias

PS: Please forgive me that I generalize by using "Germans" and "Americans". 
This is just a heuristic that I found to work reasonably well in this case.

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Re: [CREATE] Code of Conduct

[Gregory Pittman]

On 01/21/2014 10:42 AM, Dave Crossland wrote:
> 
> Power exists, whether if you structure it or not. Groups who oppose
> abuse of power by very large structured groups often think a total
> lack of structure will make them more fair, but this is a mistake.
> Democratic structures are useful for distributing power fairly in
> medium+ groups, so that power is not concentrated in unaccountable
> elites.
> 
> What part of this is nonsense? :)
> 
The nonsense is to say something which is non-novel with a dump truck
load of (pseudo)intellectual verbiage. Frankly, German and French
intellectuals already covered this ground in a more intelligent fashion
centuries ago.

This is a point-of-view of those seeking more power and trying to
rationalize it in some way. Revolutionaries (right or left wing) do this
freely, pretending to "speak for the people".

If you look at some current and more applicable information on creating
change, you might search out work by people like John Kotter, e.g.:

http://www.kotterinternational.com/our-principles/changesteps

Note that his first step is to "Create a sense of urgency". This isn't
something you can artificially produce, in a
chicken-little-sky-is-falling sort of a way. Let's recall that this
whole COC issue came up from Louis, based on his innocent (AFAICT)
question about whether it existed. This rapidly evolved to an OMG!
moment for some in which the urgency of a COC became paramount, whereas
others could see some practical value in a sensible COC, and still
others said, "Wha-?" (not to be confused with WTF, though there may have
been a little of that too).

It would be nice if, at the centenary of World War I, we might stop
digging foxholes, come out of the trenches, and shut down this COC war.

Greg
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Re: [CREATE] Code of Conduct

[Louis Desjardins]

2014/1/20 S.Kemter 

> Hi,
>
> Nope it hasnt, some here on the list wanted to discuss an CoC furthermore,
> some even wanted to take a vote on it. I feel since days ignored because
> the discussion went on. The only one who can have a problem with it, is
> from my point of view is Louis, because he has to take it to PSF an look if
> they can agree to that solution.
>

Hi Sirko,

I would like to follow up on your suggestion about the CoC and its variant
being the measures already in place at the university of Leipzig.

I believe we can expose the situation clearly to the PSF board and let them
know about the situation.

I apologize for the misundersanting. I missed your point at first but now,
reading this over and with this email, I understand and fully agree.
So, correct me if I am wrong, what I understand is we could plead the fact
that for this year’s LGM we’re going to go by the rules of the university
of Leipzig, which is our host. So, we’ll ask PSF if being at a German
university, with its strong social equity laws, and the constant in-person
presence of the University's "Gleichstellungsbeauftragten" staff, will meet
their requirements for a CoC in order to get their funding.

I am completely comfortable with that and I think it is a fair solution.
Especially considering the fact that the CoC we would vote and even if we
picked one that already exists is too short on deadline for it to be
reviewed by the administrators at the University, also considering that for
them there would be no point since they already have strong rules and we
must — as LGM organizers — comply with the rules of our host.

On top of that, we can explain PSF people that the LGM community is going
to gather at the LGM to discuss that subject and reach a decision for the
years to come. Basically, from the stand point of PSF, we have 2014 covered
and we’re preparing 2015 and further.

I put reasonable faith in the process and its positive outcome. I trust
that people at PSF will lend us a comprehensive ear. Of course, the
decision is theirs.

I hope I got things right and if anything don’t hesitate to correct me!

Cheers!

Louis


>
> Of course after I spoke with him and we find a way he will get his own
> page on lgm.org but before I speak with him, I think Louis should look
> that PSF agrees for that I waited.
>
>
> br gnokii
>
>
> 2014/1/21 Dave Crossland 
>
>> Dear Sirko,
>>
>> On 20 January 2014 23:46, Dave Crossland  wrote:
>> >
>> > On 20 January 2014 15:11, Louis Desjardins 
>> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Would it be ok if we make the decision with the co-organisers of this
>> year’s
>> >> LGM plus the people here who followed the discussion (in silent or
>> not)?
>> >
>> > But clearly its the co-organizers' prerogative to figure out who
>> > incidents should be escalated to, or not, to put a CoC on the website,
>> > or not, and if they provide physical items to attendees
>> > (schedules/name badges/promo bags/etc) to include a copy, or not.
>> >
>> > If the bureaucracy of the host means its not possible for the
>> > co-organizers, that's okay for me, and next year I hope there will be
>> > one.
>>
>> I just realised that its been around a week since your email, and you
>> didn't yet follow up with some news on what you wrote:
>>
>> On 15 January 2014 17:04, S.Kemter  wrote:
>> >
>> > we will not have an ok [on a CoC text] before LGM.
>>
>> I think its worth re-iterating this point; there will not be a CoC at
>> this LGM, not because the organizers don't want one, but because
>> putting one in place would require more time than is available.
>>
>> > What we could do is simple to invite the "Gleichstellungsbeauftragten" I
>> > dont know how to translate that titel and if Equality Ombudsman is
>> right for
>> > it to watch over us and we can surly ask him to help us for formulating
>> an
>> > CoC for later events. I think nobody of us would be that firm as
>> someone,
>> > who does nothing else then handle exactly what some here think an CoC
>> would
>> > solve.
>>
>> Sirko, how has the invitation to the Gleichstellungsbeauftragten fared?
>>
>> If they agree to attend, will their presence and how to reach them be
>> mentioned on the website, and will attendees be notified at the event?
>>
>> --
>> Cheers
>> Dave
>>
>
>
>
> --
> make me rich, buy my Inkscape book http://is.gd/yq5OD0 ;)
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Re: [CREATE] Code of Conduct

[Dave Crossland]

Hi!

On 21 January 2014 17:03, Gregory Pittman  wrote:
> German and French
> intellectuals already covered this ground in a more intelligent fashion
> centuries ago.

Please do go on. John Kotter seems a bit dumbed down for my tastes,
but this sounds more like my sort of thing. Which works by German and
French intellectuals are you referring to?

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Re: [CREATE] Code of Conduct

[S.Kemter]

Hi,

Louis that is correct.

br gnokii


2014/1/21 Louis Desjardins 

> 2014/1/20 S.Kemter 
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> Nope it hasnt, some here on the list wanted to discuss an CoC
>> furthermore, some even wanted to take a vote on it. I feel since days
>> ignored because the discussion went on. The only one who can have a problem
>> with it, is from my point of view is Louis, because he has to take it to
>> PSF an look if they can agree to that solution.
>>
>
> Hi Sirko,
>
> I would like to follow up on your suggestion about the CoC and its variant
> being the measures already in place at the university of Leipzig.
>
> I believe we can expose the situation clearly to the PSF board and let
> them know about the situation.
>
> I apologize for the misundersanting. I missed your point at first but now,
> reading this over and with this email, I understand and fully agree.
> So, correct me if I am wrong, what I understand is we could plead the fact
> that for this year’s LGM we’re going to go by the rules of the university
> of Leipzig, which is our host. So, we’ll ask PSF if being at a German
> university, with its strong social equity laws, and the constant
> in-person presence of the University's "Gleichstellungsbeauftragten"
> staff, will meet their requirements for a CoC in order to get their
> funding.
>
> I am completely comfortable with that and I think it is a fair solution.
> Especially considering the fact that the CoC we would vote and even if we
> picked one that already exists is too short on deadline for it to be
> reviewed by the administrators at the University, also considering that for
> them there would be no point since they already have strong rules and we
> must — as LGM organizers — comply with the rules of our host.
>
> On top of that, we can explain PSF people that the LGM community is going
> to gather at the LGM to discuss that subject and reach a decision for the
> years to come. Basically, from the stand point of PSF, we have 2014 covered
> and we’re preparing 2015 and further.
>
> I put reasonable faith in the process and its positive outcome. I trust
> that people at PSF will lend us a comprehensive ear. Of course, the
> decision is theirs.
>
> I hope I got things right and if anything don’t hesitate to correct me!
>
> Cheers!
>
> Louis
>
>
>>
>> Of course after I spoke with him and we find a way he will get his own
>> page on lgm.org but before I speak with him, I think Louis should look
>> that PSF agrees for that I waited.
>>
>>
>> br gnokii
>>
>>
>> 2014/1/21 Dave Crossland 
>>
>>> Dear Sirko,
>>>
>>> On 20 January 2014 23:46, Dave Crossland  wrote:
>>> >
>>> > On 20 January 2014 15:11, Louis Desjardins 
>>> wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >> Would it be ok if we make the decision with the co-organisers of this
>>> year’s
>>> >> LGM plus the people here who followed the discussion (in silent or
>>> not)?
>>> >
>>> > But clearly its the co-organizers' prerogative to figure out who
>>> > incidents should be escalated to, or not, to put a CoC on the website,
>>> > or not, and if they provide physical items to attendees
>>> > (schedules/name badges/promo bags/etc) to include a copy, or not.
>>> >
>>> > If the bureaucracy of the host means its not possible for the
>>> > co-organizers, that's okay for me, and next year I hope there will be
>>> > one.
>>>
>>> I just realised that its been around a week since your email, and you
>>> didn't yet follow up with some news on what you wrote:
>>>
>>> On 15 January 2014 17:04, S.Kemter  wrote:
>>> >
>>> > we will not have an ok [on a CoC text] before LGM.
>>>
>>> I think its worth re-iterating this point; there will not be a CoC at
>>> this LGM, not because the organizers don't want one, but because
>>> putting one in place would require more time than is available.
>>>
>>> > What we could do is simple to invite the "Gleichstellungsbeauftragten"
>>> I
>>> > dont know how to translate that titel and if Equality Ombudsman is
>>> right for
>>> > it to watch over us and we can surly ask him to help us for
>>> formulating an
>>> > CoC for later events. I think nobody of us would be that firm as
>>> someone,
>>> > who does nothing else then handle exactly what some here think an CoC
>>> would
>>> > solve.
>>>
>>> Sirko, how has the invitation to the Gleichstellungsbeauftragten fared?
>>>
>>> If they agree to attend, will their presence and how to reach them be
>>> mentioned on the website, and will attendees be notified at the event?
>>>
>>> --
>>> Cheers
>>> Dave
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> make me rich, buy my Inkscape book http://is.gd/yq5OD0 ;)
>>
>
>


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Re: [CREATE] Code of Conduct

[Dave Crossland]

http://rhymeswithorange.com/comics/january-21-2014/
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Re: [CREATE] Code of Conduct

[Jon Nordby]

On 21 January 2014 13:25, Tobias Ellinghaus  wrote:
> But whatever
> the reason is, not everyone is comfortable with the American (?) way to put
> everything into harmless words. So it is similar to the hugging example: may I
> not tell someone that he is an idiot if that is the case? Not necessarily in a
> derogative way, but just in a discussion. Does the idea that someone expresses
> his disagreement like that make you feel uncomfortable? Well, not being able
> to express me the way I am used to makes ME feel uncomfortable.

If something someone says in a discussion does not make sense, that is
what you say: X is wrong because Y.
The same goes if the person does something wrong, say which action you
believed was wrong, and why.
Don't call the person an idiot. It might work out most of the time*,
but expecting others to have a hard skin and
deflect the comment about their person, and to correctly deduce what
you *really* meant by it is not a good approach to communication.
It increases the risk of hurting people and/or to derail the
conversation. Keep criticism on actions and arguments.

*at least for the person who calls another an idiot...

> So where to draw the line? As I wrote at the first day of this discussion I
> also prefer the "treat others the way you think it is ok, and if it turns out
> that the other person doesn't feel the same then try to adapt and find some
> common ground for social interaction." approach. That is what being a social
> being is about: being able to copy with different social backgrounds, adapting
> and reacting to the situation at hand. And in the worst case avoid that person
> if interaction is not possible.
The people you interact with decide where they draw the line. Until
you know what the limits are, presuming that your own definition is
suitable is risky business.

My 2 øre.

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Re: [CREATE] Code of Conduct

[Susan Spencer]

I think that many people by now have heard that there has been
prolonged harassment in the LGM community which
continued into the LGM 2014 conference at Leipzig.
This harassment reached a peak with physical assault in an elevator,
and there is a witness to the assault.

The University of Leipzig and the LGM sponsors have not been notified
that there was harassment and assault during the conference.

The code of conduct which was suggested as an interim code was not
referenced at the meeting.
It wasn't posted to the community at the meeting, there was no contact
information provided at the meeting,
the community wasn't informed of any procedures to take in case of
incident, the community wasn't informed
of the procedures which would be followed when an incident is reported.
Everything was handled on the fly which resulted in the situation being
handled slowly and with uncertainty as to what to do.
One ad-hoc meeting was held between LGM leadership, the harasser, me,
Steve, and the target.
The results of this meeting have not been communicated to the community,
nor has a clear statement been given to the harasser that these behaviors
are not tolerable in our community.

After the meeting, the harasser tried to intimidate me when he saw me in an
area with few people.
This harasser, who up to now has been my good friend, is a serial bully who
clearly needs help.
He has been removed from the OpenSuse community for serially bulling,
and has been seriously warned about bullying in the OpenClipArt community.

A Code of Conduct is meant to provide 3 things  - statement, definitions,
processes - which are needed for practical reasons.
CoC's must be practical above all else.
Without these 3 elements a chaotic mess results when trouble happens.

We have a clear irrefutable example of this in our own community.

- Susan



On Wed, Jan 22, 2014 at 6:08 PM, Jon Nordby  wrote:

> On 21 January 2014 13:25, Tobias Ellinghaus  wrote:
> > But whatever
> > the reason is, not everyone is comfortable with the American (?) way to
> put
> > everything into harmless words. So it is similar to the hugging example:
> may I
> > not tell someone that he is an idiot if that is the case? Not
> necessarily in a
> > derogative way, but just in a discussion. Does the idea that someone
> expresses
> > his disagreement like that make you feel uncomfortable? Well, not being
> able
> > to express me the way I am used to makes ME feel uncomfortable.
>
> If something someone says in a discussion does not make sense, that is
> what you say: X is wrong because Y.
> The same goes if the person does something wrong, say which action you
> believed was wrong, and why.
> Don't call the person an idiot. It might work out most of the time*,
> but expecting others to have a hard skin and
> deflect the comment about their person, and to correctly deduce what
> you *really* meant by it is not a good approach to communication.
> It increases the risk of hurting people and/or to derail the
> conversation. Keep criticism on actions and arguments.
>
> *at least for the person who calls another an idiot...
>
> > So where to draw the line? As I wrote at the first day of this
> discussion I
> > also prefer the "treat others the way you think it is ok, and if it
> turns out
> > that the other person doesn't feel the same then try to adapt and find
> some
> > common ground for social interaction." approach. That is what being a
> social
> > being is about: being able to copy with different social backgrounds,
> adapting
> > and reacting to the situation at hand. And in the worst case avoid that
> person
> > if interaction is not possible.
> The people you interact with decide where they draw the line. Until
> you know what the limits are, presuming that your own definition is
> suitable is risky business.
>
> My 2 øre.
>
> --
> Jon Nordby - www.jonnor.com
> ___
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Re: [CREATE] Code of Conduct

[Femke Snelting]

Dear Susan, dear all

As part of the group working on establishing a code of conduct I feel sad that 
we ended up in this situation. It is rather complicated and muddled with 
nothing yet in place to respond without hesitation, as Susan clearly points out.

The last is surely not said about this; rest assured that it is been taken 
seriously, though not all of it will pass through this mailing list, I hope 
you'll understand.

Femke

On 10/04/14 16:57, Susan Spencer wrote:

I think that many people by now have heard that there has been
prolonged harassment in the LGM community which
continued into the LGM 2014 conference at Leipzig.
This harassment reached a peak with physical assault in an elevator,
and there is a witness to the assault.

The University of Leipzig and the LGM sponsors have not been notified
that there was harassment and assault during the conference.

The code of conduct which was suggested as an interim code was not referenced 
at the meeting.
It wasn't posted to the community at the meeting, there was no contact 
information provided at the meeting,
the community wasn't informed of any procedures to take in case of incident, 
the community wasn't informed
of the procedures which would be followed when an incident is reported.
Everything was handled on the fly which resulted in the situation being handled 
slowly and with uncertainty as to what to do.
One ad-hoc meeting was held between LGM leadership, the harasser, me, Steve, 
and the target.
The results of this meeting have not been communicated to the community,
nor has a clear statement been given to the harasser that these behaviors are 
not tolerable in our community.

After the meeting, the harasser tried to intimidate me when he saw me in an 
area with few people.
This harasser, who up to now has been my good friend, is a serial bully who 
clearly needs help.
He has been removed from the OpenSuse community for serially bulling,
and has been seriously warned about bullying in the OpenClipArt community.

A Code of Conduct is meant to provide 3 things  - statement, definitions, 
processes - which are needed for practical reasons.
CoC's must be practical above all else.
Without these 3 elements a chaotic mess results when trouble happens.

We have a clear irrefutable example of this in our own community.

- Susan



On Wed, Jan 22, 2014 at 6:08 PM, Jon Nordby mailto:jono...@gmail.com>> wrote:

On 21 January 2014 13:25, Tobias Ellinghaus mailto:h...@gmx.de>> wrote:
 > But whatever
 > the reason is, not everyone is comfortable with the American (?) way to 
put
 > everything into harmless words. So it is similar to the hugging example: 
may I
 > not tell someone that he is an idiot if that is the case? Not 
necessarily in a
 > derogative way, but just in a discussion. Does the idea that someone 
expresses
 > his disagreement like that make you feel uncomfortable? Well, not being 
able
 > to express me the way I am used to makes ME feel uncomfortable.

If something someone says in a discussion does not make sense, that is
what you say: X is wrong because Y.
The same goes if the person does something wrong, say which action you
believed was wrong, and why.
Don't call the person an idiot. It might work out most of the time*,
but expecting others to have a hard skin and
deflect the comment about their person, and to correctly deduce what
you *really* meant by it is not a good approach to communication.
It increases the risk of hurting people and/or to derail the
conversation. Keep criticism on actions and arguments.

*at least for the person who calls another an idiot...

 > So where to draw the line? As I wrote at the first day of this 
discussion I
 > also prefer the "treat others the way you think it is ok, and if it 
turns out
 > that the other person doesn't feel the same then try to adapt and find 
some
 > common ground for social interaction." approach. That is what being a 
social
 > being is about: being able to copy with different social backgrounds, 
adapting
 > and reacting to the situation at hand. And in the worst case avoid that 
person
 > if interaction is not possible.
The people you interact with decide where they draw the line. Until
you know what the limits are, presuming that your own definition is
suitable is risky business.

My 2 øre.

--
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Re: [CREATE] Code of Conduct

[Dave Crossland]

Hi

Definitely sad news, yet unsurprising. Without a CoC then what to do is for
me uncertain, as you say.

The coc meeting you describe is as I would expect though - I thought it was
to be a prelude to a CoC for 2015+, not to parachute one in to an event in
progress, despite the need for that on the ground.

Are there notes from the meeting?

Cheers
Dave
I think that many people by now have heard that there has been
prolonged harassment in the LGM community which
continued into the LGM 2014 conference at Leipzig.
This harassment reached a peak with physical assault in an elevator,
and there is a witness to the assault.

The University of Leipzig and the LGM sponsors have not been notified
that there was harassment and assault during the conference.

The code of conduct which was suggested as an interim code was not
referenced at the meeting.
It wasn't posted to the community at the meeting, there was no contact
information provided at the meeting,
the community wasn't informed of any procedures to take in case of
incident, the community wasn't informed
of the procedures which would be followed when an incident is reported.
Everything was handled on the fly which resulted in the situation being
handled slowly and with uncertainty as to what to do.
One ad-hoc meeting was held between LGM leadership, the harasser, me,
Steve, and the target.
The results of this meeting have not been communicated to the community,
nor has a clear statement been given to the harasser that these behaviors
are not tolerable in our community.

After the meeting, the harasser tried to intimidate me when he saw me in an
area with few people.
This harasser, who up to now has been my good friend, is a serial bully who
clearly needs help.
He has been removed from the OpenSuse community for serially bulling,
and has been seriously warned about bullying in the OpenClipArt community.

A Code of Conduct is meant to provide 3 things  - statement, definitions,
processes - which are needed for practical reasons.
CoC's must be practical above all else.
Without these 3 elements a chaotic mess results when trouble happens.

We have a clear irrefutable example of this in our own community.

- Susan



On Wed, Jan 22, 2014 at 6:08 PM, Jon Nordby  wrote:

> On 21 January 2014 13:25, Tobias Ellinghaus  wrote:
> > But whatever
> > the reason is, not everyone is comfortable with the American (?) way to
> put
> > everything into harmless words. So it is similar to the hugging example:
> may I
> > not tell someone that he is an idiot if that is the case? Not
> necessarily in a
> > derogative way, but just in a discussion. Does the idea that someone
> expresses
> > his disagreement like that make you feel uncomfortable? Well, not being
> able
> > to express me the way I am used to makes ME feel uncomfortable.
>
> If something someone says in a discussion does not make sense, that is
> what you say: X is wrong because Y.
> The same goes if the person does something wrong, say which action you
> believed was wrong, and why.
> Don't call the person an idiot. It might work out most of the time*,
> but expecting others to have a hard skin and
> deflect the comment about their person, and to correctly deduce what
> you *really* meant by it is not a good approach to communication.
> It increases the risk of hurting people and/or to derail the
> conversation. Keep criticism on actions and arguments.
>
> *at least for the person who calls another an idiot...
>
> > So where to draw the line? As I wrote at the first day of this
> discussion I
> > also prefer the "treat others the way you think it is ok, and if it
> turns out
> > that the other person doesn't feel the same then try to adapt and find
> some
> > common ground for social interaction." approach. That is what being a
> social
> > being is about: being able to copy with different social backgrounds,
> adapting
> > and reacting to the situation at hand. And in the worst case avoid that
> person
> > if interaction is not possible.
> The people you interact with decide where they draw the line. Until
> you know what the limits are, presuming that your own definition is
> suitable is risky business.
>
> My 2 øre.
>
> --
> Jon Nordby - www.jonnor.com
> ___
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Re: [CREATE] Code of Conduct

[Simon Budig]

Susan Spencer (susan.spen...@gmail.com) wrote:
> The University of Leipzig and the LGM sponsors have not been notified
> that there was harassment and assault during the conference.

[...]

> We have a clear irrefutable example of this in our own community.

It saddens me to hear that. I hope that this can be resolved in a way
that allows the vicitim to enjoy further LGMs.

So yes, I agree that we need to work on our procedures and hope that the
final code of conduct will be clear about responsibilities and
procedures.

IMHO an important part this would be the first session slot of the
conference, where in general I'd appreciate a welcome from the hosts and
organizers. It doesn't need to be long and formal, but would provide an
excellent opportunity to give a short overview on the venue and present
the code of conduct.

I considered the "State of Libre Graphics" an excellent idea and I
believe it worked really well. However, it should be the second thing,
since it doesn't serve the same purpose as a welcome and conference
opening.

Bye,
 Simon

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Re: [CREATE] Code of Conduct

[Femke Snelting]

Are there notes from the meeting?


See this thread: 
http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/create/2014-April/004897.html
Meeting notes: http://piratepad.net/LGM2014conduct

F


I think that many people by now have heard that there has been
prolonged harassment in the LGM community which
continued into the LGM 2014 conference at Leipzig.
This harassment reached a peak with physical assault in an elevator,
and there is a witness to the assault.

The University of Leipzig and the LGM sponsors have not been notified
that there was harassment and assault during the conference.

The code of conduct which was suggested as an interim code was not referenced 
at the meeting.
It wasn't posted to the community at the meeting, there was no contact 
information provided at the meeting,
the community wasn't informed of any procedures to take in case of incident, 
the community wasn't informed
of the procedures which would be followed when an incident is reported.
Everything was handled on the fly which resulted in the situation being handled 
slowly and with uncertainty as to what to do.
One ad-hoc meeting was held between LGM leadership, the harasser, me, Steve, 
and the target.
The results of this meeting have not been communicated to the community,
nor has a clear statement been given to the harasser that these behaviors are 
not tolerable in our community.

After the meeting, the harasser tried to intimidate me when he saw me in an 
area with few people.
This harasser, who up to now has been my good friend, is a serial bully who 
clearly needs help.
He has been removed from the OpenSuse community for serially bulling,
and has been seriously warned about bullying in the OpenClipArt community.

A Code of Conduct is meant to provide 3 things  - statement, definitions, 
processes - which are needed for practical reasons.
CoC's must be practical above all else.
Without these 3 elements a chaotic mess results when trouble happens.

We have a clear irrefutable example of this in our own community.

- Susan



On Wed, Jan 22, 2014 at 6:08 PM, Jon Nordby mailto:jono...@gmail.com>> wrote:

On 21 January 2014 13:25, Tobias Ellinghaus mailto:h...@gmx.de>> wrote:
 > But whatever
 > the reason is, not everyone is comfortable with the American (?) way to 
put
 > everything into harmless words. So it is similar to the hugging example: 
may I
 > not tell someone that he is an idiot if that is the case? Not 
necessarily in a
 > derogative way, but just in a discussion. Does the idea that someone 
expresses
 > his disagreement like that make you feel uncomfortable? Well, not being 
able
 > to express me the way I am used to makes ME feel uncomfortable.

If something someone says in a discussion does not make sense, that is
what you say: X is wrong because Y.
The same goes if the person does something wrong, say which action you
believed was wrong, and why.
Don't call the person an idiot. It might work out most of the time*,
but expecting others to have a hard skin and
deflect the comment about their person, and to correctly deduce what
you *really* meant by it is not a good approach to communication.
It increases the risk of hurting people and/or to derail the
conversation. Keep criticism on actions and arguments.

*at least for the person who calls another an idiot...

 > So where to draw the line? As I wrote at the first day of this 
discussion I
 > also prefer the "treat others the way you think it is ok, and if it 
turns out
 > that the other person doesn't feel the same then try to adapt and find 
some
 > common ground for social interaction." approach. That is what being a 
social
 > being is about: being able to copy with different social backgrounds, 
adapting
 > and reacting to the situation at hand. And in the worst case avoid that 
person
 > if interaction is not possible.
The people you interact with decide where they draw the line. Until
you know what the limits are, presuming that your own definition is
suitable is risky business.

My 2 øre.

--
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Re: [CREATE] Code of Conduct

[Tobias Ellinghaus]

Am Donnerstag, 10. April 2014, 16:57:18 schrieb Susan Spencer:
> I think that many people by now have heard that there has been
> prolonged harassment in the LGM community which

No, please elaborate. I guess a discussion can only happen if everyone has the 
same level of information.

> continued into the LGM 2014 conference at Leipzig.
> This harassment reached a peak with physical assault in an elevator,

"He had it coming" is the best way to describe it.

> and there is a witness to the assault.
> 
> The University of Leipzig and the LGM sponsors have not been notified
> that there was harassment and assault during the conference.

Maybe you should make it clear that we are not talking about any sexually 
motivated harassment or anything like that but a confrontation between two 
equal opponents that should be able to settle their differences without others 
pointing fingers and writing about it on the internets.

[...]

Tobias

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Re: [CREATE] Code of Conduct

[Susan Spencer]

Attendees of a conference should have reasonable assurance of their safety.


On Thu, Apr 10, 2014 at 7:54 PM, Tobias Ellinghaus  wrote:

> Am Donnerstag, 10. April 2014, 16:57:18 schrieb Susan Spencer:
> > I think that many people by now have heard that there has been
> > prolonged harassment in the LGM community which
>
> No, please elaborate. I guess a discussion can only happen if everyone has
> the
> same level of information.
>
> > continued into the LGM 2014 conference at Leipzig.
> > This harassment reached a peak with physical assault in an elevator,
>
> "He had it coming" is the best way to describe it.
>
> > and there is a witness to the assault.
> >
> > The University of Leipzig and the LGM sponsors have not been notified
> > that there was harassment and assault during the conference.
>
> Maybe you should make it clear that we are not talking about any sexually
> motivated harassment or anything like that but a confrontation between two
> equal opponents that should be able to settle their differences without
> others
> pointing fingers and writing about it on the internets.
>
> [...]
>
> Tobias
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Re: [CREATE] Code of Conduct

[Dave Crossland]

On 10 Apr 2014 19:55, "Tobias Ellinghaus"  wrote:
>
>  two equal opponents

That abstract concept is a fallacy. It's a mirage. It never occurs in
reality.

Power is always at play and has many forms. No opponents are equal, each of
us has our strengths and weaknesses.

Susan's email describes things she thinks should happen when people in our
community see each other as opponents for a moment. This perspective is
part of human nature and regularly occurs, despite our aspirations for
peace and seeing the people around us as brothers and sisters.

Therefore we need a structure for dealing with power, lest we suffer the
tyranny of structurelessness where power is exercised unbound.

I don't know what to do about what Susan described, nor am I much
interested in further details. I didn't hear anything about this until
Susan's email, and I don't care to: No further elaboration is necessary
because that's the point, that without a CoC we will have no standard to
judge how much should be done in public.

If you don't have the power to know what happened but you want to, maybe
you'll propose a CoC name accusers and accused. Maybe that's a good idea,
maybe it's not. Susan deliberately worded email to not do it. Fine by me.

The point is not this instance, the point is without a CoC, an endless
variety of these incidents, resolved each in a circumstantial ad hoc way,
and each instance forgotten only for its structure to be repeated.

The silver lining then is that the CoC now has a test case which we can use
to answer 'what should happen' in concrete detail, and which Susan has
started enumerating for us.

To the future.
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Re: [CREATE] Code of Conduct

[María Leandro]

Hello all.

Just trying to help here, so if my comment raise any susceptibility please
forgive me.

As someone who lives in a "region" where a CoC is completely useless, and
someone who has been sexually harassed at different conferences, I must
agree that there are different types of harassment, and actions to take at
each case must be defined.

* Was it a verbal attack?
* Was it a violent attack?
* Was a sexual attack?

In my experience, I was taking an "innocent lift"on an elevator with a
friend who had more drinks than he should, who not only tried to kiss me,
but also lift me, put me against the wall and tried to undress me... that's
something to call cops for; and yet, "it was my fault" or at least that was
the comment I received when I tried to speak of (no, it wasn't at LGM). My
only weapon at that time were martial arts.

My point is that, to have a real solution, we need to attack each problem
individually, because if a drunk fellow tries to kiss you is not as bad as
someone trying to rape you. I do believe that there should be
punishment/scolding for everything, but as long as we/you/whoever define
the kind of assault, a list of actions to do and a list of people to
contact, we will have just a document that says "you can't do... whatever".
Over-protection isn't helpful either.

A simple recommendation from the point of view of a victim:

A.- Define a list of common harassment that occurs at conferences (there is
plenty of documentation)
B.- Define a small questionnaire to help understand the magnitude of the
assault, and simplify the actions to take.
C.- Something that was SUPER useful in previous events was to have an
"anti-bullies" team, which is simply a group of awesome/huge/strong daddies
at conferences that you can call for help.
D.- Local contact for police and laws depending on the location, for those
cases that get more serious.
E.- Names... if an assault gets to a point where it's not just a matter of
drinks but premeditated, **Name that person**. There is a reason why trials
are public, and a physical assault is not different than this.


A CoC is not just to protect women against an assault; our LBTS fellows,
religious ones and more are every single day attacked just because they/we
are different. A good CoC must have everyone on it to be accurate, and has
to be detailed on the actions to take against each situation. We cannot
judge everyone the same, but we need to take actions in order to have a
better society/community/event.


See ya.




2014-04-10 15:39 GMT-04:30 Dave Crossland :

>
> On 10 Apr 2014 19:55, "Tobias Ellinghaus"  wrote:
> >
> >  two equal opponents
>
> That abstract concept is a fallacy. It's a mirage. It never occurs in
> reality.
>
> Power is always at play and has many forms. No opponents are equal, each
> of us has our strengths and weaknesses.
>
> Susan's email describes things she thinks should happen when people in our
> community see each other as opponents for a moment. This perspective is
> part of human nature and regularly occurs, despite our aspirations for
> peace and seeing the people around us as brothers and sisters.
>
> Therefore we need a structure for dealing with power, lest we suffer the
> tyranny of structurelessness where power is exercised unbound.
>
> I don't know what to do about what Susan described, nor am I much
> interested in further details. I didn't hear anything about this until
> Susan's email, and I don't care to: No further elaboration is necessary
> because that's the point, that without a CoC we will have no standard to
> judge how much should be done in public.
>
> If you don't have the power to know what happened but you want to, maybe
> you'll propose a CoC name accusers and accused. Maybe that's a good idea,
> maybe it's not. Susan deliberately worded email to not do it. Fine by me.
>
> The point is not this instance, the point is without a CoC, an endless
> variety of these incidents, resolved each in a circumstantial ad hoc way,
> and each instance forgotten only for its structure to be repeated.
>
> The silver lining then is that the CoC now has a test case which we can
> use to answer 'what should happen' in concrete detail, and which Susan has
> started enumerating for us.
>
> To the future.
>
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Re: [CREATE] Code of Conduct

[Gregory Pittman]

On 04/10/2014 02:08 PM, Susan Spencer wrote:
Attendees of a conference should have reasonable assurance of their 
safety.



I am certainly in agreement with a Code of Conduct.
At the same time, one must realize that a Code of Conduct does not 
necessarily prevent incidents, it only specifies how to deal with them.


The more challenging aspect is how to disseminate information about such 
incidents. It may be, probably is inappropriate to broadcast such things 
freely, yet there should be some awareness of facts as they are known to 
those who have volunteered to help LGM as an organization, and ideally 
with a contemporaneous timing. How can we evaluate an accusation now? 
Even without a Code of Conduct it is possible to deal with such incidents.


We have the challenge of trying to be "open to all" yet realizing that 
the "all" we refer to is the collection of those who have appropriate 
behavior.


Greg
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Re: [CREATE] Code of Conduct

[Dave Crossland]

On 10 April 2014 23:26, María Leandro  wrote:
> from the point of view of a victim

In the January discussion, it was suggested that all CoC documents be
phrased positively rather than negatively, and many people voiced
support for that.

Rather than anti-badthing, phasing things as pro-goodthing is better, I think.

I'm sure a list of common harassment scenarios could be presented in a
positive way -- by including a happy ending to each of them.
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Re: [CREATE] Code of Conduct

[Gregory Pittman]

On 04/10/2014 07:36 PM, Dave Crossland wrote:

On 10 April 2014 23:26, María Leandro  wrote:

from the point of view of a victim

In the January discussion, it was suggested that all CoC documents be
phrased positively rather than negatively, and many people voiced
support for that.

Rather than anti-badthing, phasing things as pro-goodthing is better, I think.

I'm sure a list of common harassment scenarios could be presented in a
positive way -- by including a happy ending to each of them.

All the same, there must be some sadness that some bad experience 
happened to someone as well as the fact that we have to deal with some 
bad behavior on someone else's part. If we can be part of helping 
someone see the need to seek help with their personal relationships, 
perhaps this might fit some sense of a goodthing. I just hope we can 
manage to set some sensible and effective boundaries for behavior.


Greg
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Re: [CREATE] Code of Conduct

[Chris Lilley]

Hello Gregory,

Friday, April 11, 2014, 1:24:18 AM, you wrote:

> On 04/10/2014 02:08 PM, Susan Spencer wrote:
>> Attendees of a conference should have reasonable assurance of their 
>> safety.
>>
> I am certainly in agreement with a Code of Conduct.
> At the same time, one must realize that a Code of Conduct does not 
> necessarily prevent incidents, it only specifies how to deal with them.

Partial agreement. A CoC certainly won't prevent all incidents.

I think that clearly set expectations can, by way of example to follow
and clarity over consequences, help prevent some of them.


-- 
Best regards,
 Chrismailto:ch...@w3.org

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Re: [CREATE] Code of Conduct

[Dave Crossland]

On 10 April 2014 20:08, Susan Spencer  wrote:
>
> Attendees of a conference should have reasonable assurance of their safety.

Right, and from the earlier messages on this thread, I understood that
at LGM2014 this assurance would be found through the University
ombudsman, who would be requested to lead the resolution of any
conflicts that came up.

What mystifies me is why no one involved in the ad hoc resolution of
this on-site requested the help of the University ombudsman.
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Re: [CREATE] Code of Conduct

[Louis Desjardins]

2014-04-11 10:25 GMT-04:00 Dave Crossland :

> On 10 April 2014 20:08, Susan Spencer  wrote:
> >
> > Attendees of a conference should have reasonable assurance of their
> safety.
>
> Right, and from the earlier messages on this thread, I understood that
> at LGM2014 this assurance would be found through the University
> ombudsman, who would be requested to lead the resolution of any
> conflicts that came up.
>
> What mystifies me is why no one involved in the ad hoc resolution of
> this on-site requested the help of the University ombudsman.
>

Hi Dave,

I can at least answer for myself here. To be very candid, I haven't even
thought we could ask for help at the University itself. When the event goes
on and when things happen, you end up in your own little world and think of
the people around you first.

However I can only guess that if we would have mentionned very clearly at
the beginning of the conference -- and on our website -- who to contact if
something happened, we would have gone to that person. The aprehended
language barrier may also have played a role, even if there was no evidence
at all that there would be such a barrier. Anyway, more publicity around
the kind of support we could have had received would have certainly helped.
Rethinking of that, I think it would have been a good idea.

In the food for thought, there are a couple more things to mention.

First, you don't come at a conference thinking there is going to be an
incident. Hence, there is a need to make sure all participants are aware
that that *can* happen. It's like security measures on board of a plane or
a boat, or around a swimming pool. If we are not aware of the danger, then
we cannot really react to it. And when we discover that THIS is dangerous,
it maybe well too late to react, or to react with the appropriate measures.

Number 2: time... Time flies... At some point in time the conference ends
and everyone goes home... However the damage is done and the consequences
will remain, outside the conference. At a certain point we have to face the
reality we're going to have to handle the case remotely. It's not easy at
all.

We are learning.

Louis





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Re: [CREATE] Code of Conduct

[Dave Crossland]

Dear Louis

On 11 Apr 2014 19:36, "Louis Desjardins"  wrote:
>
> 2014-04-11 10:25 GMT-04:00 Dave Crossland :
>>
>> On 10 April 2014 20:08, Susan Spencer  wrote:
>> >
>> > Attendees of a conference should have reasonable assurance of their
safety.
>>
>> Right, and from the earlier messages on this thread, I understood that
>> at LGM2014 this assurance would be found through the University
>> ombudsman, who would be requested to lead the resolution of any
>> conflicts that came up.
>>
>> What mystifies me is why no one involved in the ad hoc resolution of
>> this on-site requested the help of the University ombudsman.
>
>
> Hi Dave,
>
> I can at least answer for myself here. To be very candid, I haven’t even
thought we could ask for help at the University itself.
>
> When the event goes on and when things happen, you end up in your own
little world and think of the people around you first.
>
> However I can only guess that if we would have mentionned very clearly at
the beginning of the conference — and on our website — who to contact if
something happened, we would have gone to that person.


On the one hand, when I asked Sirko here in this thread,

"Sirko, how has the invitation to the Gleichstellungsbeauftragten fared?

If they agree to attend, will their presence and how to reach them be
mentioned on the website, and will attendees be notified at the event?"

Sirko did say,

"Of course after I speak with [the ombudsman] and we find a way he will get
his own page on lgm.org"

and the 2 suggestions I made and you reiterate did not happen, as far as I
know (not attending many announcements, eek)

On the other hand, despite the lack of a page titled COC on the website
that actually says instead of a coc there is the hosts ombudsman, and the
lack of announcements and notices, still the python software foundation is
listed as a sponsor on the website today.

So i would find it unfair to attribute the lack of the ombudsman's
involvement to the website team, or to the session masters or whatever we
call them, or to the local organizing team.

The nature of a free-association and participatory group as ours is that if
we don't like what we have, it is up to us to be the change we want to see.

So i offer the suggestion that those concerned about a CoC could have been
more proactive in working with the cards they were dealt this year.

It seems to me that everyone at the meeting Susan described did know there
was an ombudsman, didn't promote this fact preemptively, and didnt remember
it or want it brought up when there was an incident.

There was no CoC, but there was an ombudsman, and those who want a CoC
didn't make use of it.

> First, you don’t come at a conference thinking there is going to be an
incident. Hence, there is a need to make sure all participants are aware
that that *can* happen. It’s like security measures on board of a plane or
a boat, or around a swimming pool. If we are not aware of the danger, then
we cannot really react to it. And when we discover that THIS is dangerous,
it maybe well too late to react, or to react with the appropriate measures.


We were aware of the danger, this year for the first time, because the PSF
wants us to be aware of it, and we had a huge discussion about it.

This situation is that we asked a lifeguard to stick around on the weekend
for our pool party, he was taking lunch inside the club house the whole
time, and when there was some incident no one who had asked him to be there
did call for him.



> Number 2: time... Time flies... At some point in time the conference ends
and everyone goes home... However the damage is done and the consequences
will remain, outside the conference. At a certain point we have to face the
reality we’re going to have to handle the case remotely. It’s not easy at
all.
>
> We are learning.

It is absolutely unclear to me what is to be done to handle this case any
further. I don't think anything ought to be done: We don't have a CoC, we
had an ombudsman but they were not called, so we rely on private parties
sorting out their differences in private.

If going forward someone in our community is uncomfortable or begrudging
another one of us, they best leave each other alone politely or risk a new
incident that would, I hope, be guided by the CoC that we will have in
place at that time.

> Louis
>
>
>
>
>
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